Top 10 White NBA players of All Time

[Niquesports]

A List of the top 10 White players of all time in my order

1 Larry Bird
2 Jerry West
3 Rick barry
4 John Havelick
5 George Milkin
6 Bob Cousy
7 Pistol Pete
8 John Stockton
9 Dave Cowens
10 Dirk

[Shawty Lo]

Divac???

[Richie2k6]

7 Pistol Pete
8 John Stockton
I can't see absolutely one single reason why this is.

[starface]

5 George Milkin


yeah, Milkin was a good one

[Dasher]

Pistol Pete is too high. The list is missing Bob Petit, Joe Fulks, Bobby Jones, Bill Walton, and "White Chocolate" Jason Williams.

[Psileas]

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3-4. Bob Pettit
3-4. John Havlicek
5-7. Bob Cousy
5-7. John Stockton
5-7. Rick Barry
8. George Mikan
9-10. Kevin McHale
9-10. Dave Cowens

[~LA's fine$t~]

Who the hell is George Milkin?

[starface]

by the way ginobili is better than some of those playaz

[~LA's fine$t~]

by the way ginobili is better than some of those playaz

No he isn't.

[chopchop20]

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3-4. Bob Pettit
3-4. John Havlicek
5-7. Bob Cousy
5-7. John Stockton
5-7. Rick Barry
8. George Mikan
9-10. Kevin McHale
9-10. Dave Cowens

No way does Bird get #1 over Jerry West.

[EricForman]

No way does Bird get #1 over Jerry West.


:oldlol:

I hope you're just being a homer. Because if you really believe so you don't know anything about basketball and the history of the league.

Not a soul on earth outside of Jerry West's immediately family would rank West over Bird in any kind of all time rankings.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Larry Bird all the way!

[starface]

No he isn't.

LMAO

[Paladin55]

Who the hell is George Milkin?

Sarcasm... or ignorance?

[Rekindled]

A List of the top 10 White players of all time in my order

1 Larry Bird
2 Jerry West
3 Rick barry
4 John Havelick
5 George Milkin
6 Bob Cousy
7 Pistol Pete
8 John Stockton
9 Dave Cowens
10 Dirk


no kevin mchale?

[Rekindled]

Sarcasm... or ignorance?

Because that player doesnt exist?

[ruslan]

A List of the top 10 White players of all time in my order

1 Larry Bird
2 Jerry West
3 Rick barry
4 John Havelick
5 George Milkin
6 Bob Cousy
7 Pistol Pete
8 John Stockton
9 Dave Cowens
10 Dirk

take mikan and cousy of the list, they would get killed in todays nba. they played against scrubs and very overrated. and how do u have dirk over nash? or what about sabonis even though he didn't play that much in nba.....

[Silverbullit]

Who the hell is George Milkin?

Fantasy player :D

[Psileas]

take mikan and cousy of the list, they would get killed in todays nba. they played against scrubs and very overrated.

1) You're off-topic, that's not what the lists are about.
2) You're the same dude who didn't know who Lew Alcindor was and yet you're trying to judge who they played against and whether they're overrated or not?

[chopchop20]

:oldlol:

I hope you're just being a homer. Because if you really believe so you don't know anything about basketball and the history of the league.

Not a soul on earth outside of Jerry West's immediately family would rank West over Bird in any kind of all time rankings.

You just don't know too much about basketball. You need to brush up on your, history, son.

Reg. Season Scoring Average
West 27
Bird 24.3

Playoff Scoring Average
West 29
Bird 23.8

Total Points
West 25,192
Bird 21,791

[ruslan]

1) You're off-topic, that's not what the lists are about.
2) You're the same dude who didn't know who Lew Alcindor was and yet you're trying to judge who they played against and whether they're overrated or not?

lol since when did i not know who lew alcidor was. show me some evidence. and since he doesn't use that name often a lot of people won't know who he is. ofcourse i know who jabbar is. i dont sit around searching peoples names and aliases and what not....:no:

[ruslan]

You just don't know too much about basketball. You need to brush up on your, history, son.

Reg. Season Scoring Average
West 27
Bird 24.3

Playoff Scoring Average
West 29
Bird 23.8

Total Points
West 25,192
Bird 21,791

bird >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>west. why are u even questioning this comparison?

close thread.

[chopchop20]

bird >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>west. why are u even questioning this comparison?

close thread.

You're nuts and don't know anything about old school basketball. Jerry West was not only a great scorer, he was an outstanding defender as well.

[mrhoopfan]

OP needs to clarify white American or White in general( Dirk, Nash) and clarify if guys like Ginobili are considered white( imo, no). Also, what about guys that are half white( jason Kidd), It seems the one drop rule is still applicable, even in the 21st century which is crazy to me but c'est la vie!!!

[Rekindled]

You're nuts and don't know anything about old school basketball. Jerry West was not only a great scorer, he was an outstanding defender as well.

Put bird in the 60s and he would dominate west hard.

[stephanieg]

Put bird in the 60s and he would dominate west hard.

If Bird played in the 60s you'd be calling him a white stiff who couldn't play the modern game.

[Psileas]

lol since when did i not know who lew alcidor was. show me some evidence.

I don't need to show evidence to myself. I know what I saw. :)


and since he doesn't use that name often a lot of people won't know who he is. ofcourse i know who jabbar is. i dont sit around searching peoples names and aliases and what not....

Everyone who wants to comment on something regarding NBA history and doesn't know who Alcindor was is almost as bad as someone who wants to comment about old boxing and doesn't know who Cassius Clay was. His opinion simply has no real bearing.

[chopchop20]

Put bird in the 60s and he would dominate west hard.

How do you figure? West was a better athlete and more skilled than Bird.

[miles berg]

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin McHale
6. Bob Pettit
7. Rick Barry
8. John Havlicek
9. Bob Cousy
10. Steve Nash

[Psileas]

I don't think West was more skilled than Bird (both were great in that department), but, yes, he was easily the better athlete. He was probably the best athlete among all players of the top-10-although Havlicek was a more versatile one.

[Paladin55]

Because that player doesnt exist?

Thought he just didn't know who Mikan because he made his comment after a poster who correctly spelled Mikan's name.

[Loki]

No way does Bird get #1 over Jerry West.

LOL @ Laker fans. Just taking homerism to new levels every day. :oldlol:

[Loki]

If this doesn't prove that Laker fans are the most ridiculous homers in existence, I don't know what will. West over Bird -- now I've heard it all. :oldlol:

[chopchop20]

I don't think West was more skilled than Bird (both were great in that department), but, yes, he was easily the better athlete. He was probably the best athlete among all players of the top-10-although Havlicek was a more versatile one.

The context that I uses "more skilled" is playmaking ability: ball handling, finishing at the rim.... Not saying that Bird was a slouch, but I give the nod to West.

[chopchop20]

If this doesn't prove that Laker fans are the most ridiculous homers in existence, I don't know what will. West over Bird -- now I've heard it all. :oldlol:

Well I guess the NBA is a homer as well since they made Mr. Clutch the logo of the league :confusedshrug:

[Mr Know It All]

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin McHale
6. Bob Pettit
7. Rick Barry
8. John Havlicek
9. Bob Cousy
10. Steve Nash

Good list, I don't know if I'd put Dirk over Josh Stockton just yet though. Would I take Dirk in his prime over Stockton in his prime? Yes, but right now Johnny still has the credentials and the stats to be over Dirk IMO.

[chopchop20]

I'm surprised that Billy Cunningham is not getting any love...

[Loki]

The homerism is beyond compare. This is why the world hates Laker fans.

[Detroitguy113]

Top 5 white players

1. Peja
2. Kyle Korver
3. Mike Miller
4. Walter Herrmann
5. Beidrins

Bird gets the honorable mention

Top 5 black players

1. Jason Williams
2. MJ
3. Kwame Brown
4. Jarret Jack
5. Sam Cassell

Grant Hill with the honorable.

[Jimmy2k8]

Well I guess the NBA is a homer as well since they made Mr. Clutch the logo of the league :confusedshrug:


Then he just disappears and doesn't reply to your post. :oldlol:


The homerism is beyond compare. This is why the world hates Laker fans.


Only in your world Loki, only in your world.

[~LA's fine$t~]

Sarcasm... or ignorance?

I should ask you the same question.

[~LA's fine$t~]

Thought he just didn't know who Mikan because he made his comment after a poster who correctly spelled Mikan's name.

Eh yeah I know who Mikan is, since I'm a Laker fan I know him quite well.

[chopchop20]

The homerism is beyond compare. This is why the world hates Laker fans.

Dude you come in here name calling like a little kid. Yet you still haven't offered any objective basis for saying that Bird is better than West.

From what I can tell, your whole argument is that I'm a so-called homer. :rolleyes:

[Paladin55]

So I take it that Henry J. (Hank) Finkel does not make this list?

http://www.nba.com/media/celtics/Finkel_Hank.jpg

[JazzDoc]

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin McHale
6. Bob Pettit
7. Rick Barry
8. John Havlicek
9. Bob Cousy
10. Steve Nash

Dang, Dirk Nowitzki rated higher than John Stockton and Kevin McHale? Please tell me that you never watched a day of basketball until 2005-ish.

[Niquesports]

Pistol Pete is too high. The list is missing Bob Petit, Joe Fulks, Bobby Jones, Bill Walton, and "White Chocolate" Jason Williams.


I can see Bob Petit for sure but the others no way Walton had 1 1/2 great year in the league most overrated player of all time

[Niquesports]

take mikan and cousy of the list, they would get killed in todays nba. they played against scrubs and very overrated. and how do u have dirk over nash? or what about sabonis even though he didn't play that much in nba.....

its silly when people get on boards and say that the 60's were some scrubs players these guys dominated the league that they played in thats all we can judge them by. Worst part is most of the people with this mind set never even seen these guys play.

[sunsfan1357]

...so no one calling the Laker fans homers are going to offer any arguments about why Bird is better than West?

[Niquesports]

:oldlol:

I hope you're just being a homer. Because if you really believe so you don't know anything about basketball and the history of the league.

Not a soul on earth outside of Jerry West's immediately family would rank West over Bird in any kind of all time rankings.


everyone on West fathers side says Bird was better

[Loki]

Only in your world Loki, only in your world.

Really? So you think there's a case to be made that West > Bird?


Dude you come in here name calling like a little kid. Yet you still haven't offered any objective basis for saying that Bird is better than West.

I don't have to "make a case" for something that's accepted by 99.9% of all people.

[Niquesports]

You just don't know too much about basketball. You need to brush up on your, history, son.

Reg. Season Scoring Average
West 27
Bird 24.3

Playoff Scoring Average
West 29
Bird 23.8

Total Points
West 25,192
Bird 21,791

How many MVp's does West have ?

[Niquesports]

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin McHale
6. Bob Pettit
7. Rick Barry
8. John Havlicek
9. Bob Cousy
10. Steve Nash


Mchale is way to far and should even be on list. Over Barry ???????????? If Barry wasnt such an ***whole and didnt jump to the ABA he would get much more respect he was Bird before Bird.

[chopchop20]

Really? So you think there's a case to be made that West > Bird?



I don't have to "make a case" for something that's accepted by 99.9% of all people.

According to who? The fact is you can't make a case because you're just a troll who's looking for attention like a little kid.

[chopchop20]

How many MVp's does West have ?

1 Finals MVP & 1 All Star MVP -- no regular season.

[Loki]

According to who? The fact is you can't make a case because you're just a troll who's looking for attention like a little kid.

According to who? Find me a single poll that has West over Bird. Thanks.

Laker fans... :oldlol:

[ruslan]

if dirk is in the mix than kidd and nash should too..

[chopchop20]

According to who? Find me a single poll that has West over Bird. Thanks.

Laker fans... :oldlol:

Polls form Inside Hoops? :roll: You're comical. This board is mostly high school kids. And that goes to my point, you don't have an objective basis for your argument. You rely on the popular opinion on a forum -- what a clown.

[miles berg]

if dirk is in the mix than kidd and nash should too..

Kidd's 1/2 white and, sorry, Nash is in that 9-15 range, Dirk is top 6 at worst. Big difference between those two.

As for the Jazz fan that commented, yes, I have been watching since 1986. Dirk, Stockton, & McHale are pretty interchangeable, I just took the guy that took his team to the Finals in a stacked conference without another all star, let alone another all time great like Stockton had with Malone and McHale had with Bird. Dirk took a Mavs team to 60 wins and the NBA Finals, through Tim Duncan and the Spurs, with Jason Terry as the 2nd best player on his team, maybe Josh Howard but he hadnt quite gotten to where he is today yet. Either way, neither Terry nor Howard are anywhere close to a Karl Malone or Larry Bird.

Dirks a career 25 ppg/11 rpg in the playoffs, led his team to the 3rd most playoff wins of any franchise in the decade of the 2000s, 2nd most regular season wins, and has a MVP on top of it (and should have two, should have gotten the 2006 MVP, not Nash, but Shaq should have gotten the 2005 MVP too, and Nash had a better case for the 2007 MVP than he did either 2005 or 2006, its all messed up). What Dirk has done is extremely special. How many players in history have given his team 50 wins over 8 straight seasons with the type of turnover Dallas has had?

Put him up against any of the guys after Bird and West and he compares. Career 25.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.1 bpg playoff averages are comparable to just about anyone in the modern era of NBA basketball outside of the Jordans & Shaqs and guys up there in the top 10 of all time, which is where Bird & West are and why I am not arguing Dirk against those guys. He is a top 25 player all time, no reason he can't be argued as the #3 white guy all time. Stockton & McHale are both right there too, obviously, I just think Dirk has done as much as Stockton without a Karl Malone level player there for half his run (and that is only if you consider Steve Nash to be at that level and I dont). Dirk wasnt doing all of this in the early 00s East, he was doing it in the West. He played against KG in the playoffs, he played against Duncan in three different playoffs, he wasnt racking these numbers and wins up against Antonio Davis & Kenyon Martin. We are talking KG, Duncan, early 00s Chris Webber, truly great, great players.

[haji_d_robertas]

Since there has been no argument for or against him, I'm going to go out on a limb and say John Havlicek is the #1 greatest white player of them all. And since this is a racist thread, we should set the criteria at white USA players, since the USA has the racist market cornered. So, the greatest white USA Basketball players are:

1. John Havlicek
2. Larry Bird
3. Jerry West
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin Mchale
6. Bob Cousy
7. Bill Walton
8. Bob Pettit
9. George Mikan
10. Jeff Hornacek

Personally, this kind of rating of players is a very slippery slope. I think these players are great, no matter what and it doesn't matter who's what color. What's next the top ten high yellow players? The top ten blackest black players? The top ten 1/2 white players?

[ruslan]

Mchale is way to far and should even be on list. Over Barry ???????????? If Barry wasnt such an ***whole and didnt jump to the ABA he would get much more respect he was Bird before Bird.

**** is wrong with you putting dirk at 3?:banghead:

[ruslan]

Since there has been no argument for or against him, I'm going to go out on a limb and say John Havlicek is the #1 greatest white player of them all. And since this is a racist thread, we should set the criteria at white USA players, since the USA has the racist market cornered. So, the greatest white USA Basketball players are:

1. John Havlicek
2. Larry Bird
3. Jerry West
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin Mchale
6. Bob Cousy
7. Bill Walton
8. Bob Pettit
9. George Mikan
10. Jeff Hornacek

Personally, this kind of rating of players is a very slippery slope. I think these players are great, no matter what and it doesn't matter who's what color. What's next the top ten high yellow players? The top ten blackest black players? The top ten 1/2 white players?
ummmmmmm jeff hornacek? really? :oldlol: cousy and mikan shouldn't be on anybodys lists at all. kidd and nash instead of those 2.

[stephanieg]

Bill Walton is half billy goat so you can't include him.

How about this guy?



http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/f/fd/Act_greg_ostertag.jpg

[Scott Pippen]

Larry Legend >>> West by huge margin.

[haji_d_robertas]

ummmmmmm jeff hornacek? really? :oldlol: cousy and mikan shouldn't be on anybodys lists at all. kidd and nash instead of those 2.

Nash isn't American and Kidd isn't white. Slippery slope. And I'll accept constructive criticism only, you F***ng desperate, attention seeking putz.

[Devientz]

The thing I hate about these lists is that most of these guys wouldnt even make the cut on any team in the NBA today. Skillwise, the players today are so far above and beyond then they were back in the pistol pete days its rediculous. Some people seem to not understand that. Yes, Manu Ginobli IS better than a lot of these guys.

So how is greatness judged? Awards? Dominance in your era? Impact on the league? I dont get it. Its like saying the A-track player is more important than the IPOD because it paved the way, but i dont want a ****in A-track player, I want an IPOD damnit

[Niquesports]

Kidd's 1/2 white and, sorry, Nash is in that 9-15 range, Dirk is top 6 at worst. Big difference between those two.

As for the Jazz fan that commented, yes, I have been watching since 1986. Dirk, Stockton, & McHale are pretty interchangeable, I just took the guy that took his team to the Finals in a stacked conference without another all star, let alone another all time great like Stockton had with Malone and McHale had with Bird. Dirk took a Mavs team to 60 wins and the NBA Finals, through Tim Duncan and the Spurs, with Jason Terry as the 2nd best player on his team, maybe Josh Howard but he hadnt quite gotten to where he is today yet. Either way, neither Terry nor Howard are anywhere close to a Karl Malone or Larry Bird.

Dirks a career 25 ppg/11 rpg in the playoffs, led his team to the 3rd most playoff wins of any franchise in the decade of the 2000s, 2nd most regular season wins, and has a MVP on top of it (and should have two, should have gotten the 2006 MVP, not Nash, but Shaq should have gotten the 2005 MVP too, and Nash had a better case for the 2007 MVP than he did either 2005 or 2006, its all messed up). What Dirk has done is extremely special. How many players in history have given his team 50 wins over 8 straight seasons with the type of turnover Dallas has had?

Put him up against any of the guys after Bird and West and he compares. Career 25.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.1 bpg playoff averages are comparable to just about anyone in the modern era of NBA basketball outside of the Jordans & Shaqs and guys up there in the top 10 of all time, which is where Bird & West are and why I am not arguing Dirk against those guys. He is a top 25 player all time, no reason he can't be argued as the #3 white guy all time. Stockton & McHale are both right there too, obviously, I just think Dirk has done as much as Stockton without a Karl Malone level player there for half his run (and that is only if you consider Steve Nash to be at that level and I dont). Dirk wasnt doing all of this in the early 00s East, he was doing it in the West. He played against KG in the playoffs, he played against Duncan in three different playoffs, he wasnt racking these numbers and wins up against Antonio Davis & Kenyon Martin. We are talking KG, Duncan, early 00s Chris Webber, truly great, great players.

Thats the thing about Dirk. Hes all numbers his team always chokes in big games he is veary easly intimidated and at 6'11 he doesnt play like a big man.He's soft a cry baby and has never won not even a bingo game let alone a championship

[Niquesports]

The thing I hate about these lists is that most of these guys wouldnt even make the cut on any team in the NBA today. Skillwise, the players today are so far above and beyond then they were back in the pistol pete days its rediculous. Some people seem to not understand that. Yes, Manu Ginobli IS better than a lot of these guys.

So how is greatness judged? Awards? Dominance in your era? Impact on the league? I dont get it. Its like saying the A-track player is more important than the IPOD because it paved the way, but i dont want a ****in A-track player, I want an IPOD damnit

This is the best way to judge players of different eras was he a top 5 player in his era West yes Manu no

The player Manu come the closest to in style of play is Hondo .

So I guess in you mind set Babe Ruth Jim Brown jesse Owens and joe Louis are bums

[Niquesports]

Bill Walton is half billy goat so you can't include him.

How about this guy?




http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/f/fd/Act_greg_ostertag.jpg

He's also 1/3 pot head that makes him a billywhitehead

[Devientz]

This is the best way to judge players of different eras was he a top 5 player in his era West yes Manu no

The player Manu come the closest to in style of play is Hondo .

So I guess in you mind set Babe Ruth Jim Brown jesse Owens and joe Louis are bums
I wasnt considering eras in that example. I never compared Manu to any single player. The fact is if you took Manu, or any player in todays league really and took them back in time to the 60's they would dominate the league. So, yes Manu is better than West if you look at it that way. I know thats not how it works and thats irrelevant so forget it.

My point is, how are you supposed to accurately judge the players from today to the players from the past? Your "top 5" method falls way short on that.

[Loki]

Polls form Inside Hoops? :roll: You're comical. This board is mostly high school kids. And that goes to my point, you don't have an objective basis for your argument. You rely on the popular opinion on a forum -- what a clown.

No, any poll from anywhere -- forums, sports sites (ESPN etc.), or sports magazines (SI, The Sporting News etc.). Good luck finding one that has West over Bird.

Again, you're being a huge Laker homer here.

[Mr Know It All]

Thats the thing about Dirk. Hes all numbers his team always chokes in big games he is veary easly intimidated and at 6'11 he doesnt play like a big man.He's soft a cry baby and has never won not even a bingo game let alone a championship

It's too bad there are so many ignorant basketball fans. Dirk is 5-0 in game 7s, putting up great performances in 2006 against the Spurs, and in 2003 against the Portland Trailblazers. Not to mention the great clutch plays he made in the 2006 Finals run. A three to bascially crush Memphis in the first round, the great series he had against San Antonio capped off by his unbelievable 3 point play in game 7, and a 50 point game in the crucial game 5 against Phoenix. The only time Dirk has ever "choked" in the playoffs is in the Golden State series, partly because of the way he was used by Avery Johnson, and one free throw against the Heat. In the Heat series, he actually made alot of very clutch shots late, but in the end Wade just got every call going to the rim.

As miles berg said, he put up 25ppg and 11rpg in the playoffs. Stop saying he isn't a clutch performer, because he is. He's made alot more game winning shots and tying shots than Kevin Garnett has in his day. He also didn't need two HOFers to bring him to the finals. Dirk has done some pretty amazing things in the playoffs considering his supporting cast, and doesn't get near the amount of respect he should. This is coming from a Spurs fan.

[chopchop20]

No, any poll from anywhere -- forums, sports sites (ESPN etc.), or sports magazines (SI, The Sporting News etc.). Good luck finding one that has West over Bird.

Again, you're being a huge Laker homer here.

West was a better offensive player and a much better defensive player (I won't even bother with the stats for now) When you're able to back up your statements with more than public opinion, let me know.

[Loki]

West was a better offensive player and a much better defensive player (I won't even bother with the stats for now) When you're able to back up your statements with more than public opinion, let me know.

West was not a better offensive player than Larry Bird. Better volume scorer, yes.

Btw, this is about the top 10 all time, not who "the best" is. The best 10 players of all time at their peaks would look different than the top 10 all-time list.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

did anyone mention Mark Madsen?

[guy]

This is the best way to judge players of different eras was he a top 5 player in his era West yes Manu no

The player Manu come the closest to in style of play is Hondo .

So I guess in you mind set Babe Ruth Jim Brown jesse Owens and joe Louis are bums

Isn't top 5 in a 150 players-league a bit different then top 5 in a 350 players-league? Not saying West isn't better then Manu, but thats not a good way in judging eras.

[chopchop20]

West was not a better offensive player than Larry Bird. Better volume scorer, yes.

Btw, this is about the top 10 all time, not who "the best" is. The best 10 players of all time at their peaks would look different than the top 10 all-time list.

Better handles, playmaking ability, shooter = Better offensive player

Still the 2nd highest playoff scoring average behind your beloved MJ (5 points higher than Bird) The greatest scoring guard besides you know who.

C'mon... we know when people judge greatness, rings are a big part of the equation. And we know that West's achievements are devalued because he was 1-8 in the NBA Finals.

But make no mistake about, Jerry West was the Michael Jordan before MJ when it comes to individual greatness.

[mrhoopfan]

It's too bad there are so many ignorant basketball fans. Dirk is 5-0 in game 7s, putting up great performances in 2006 against the Spurs, and in 2003 against the Portland Trailblazers. Not to mention the great clutch plays he made in the 2006 Finals run. A three to bascially crush Memphis in the first round, the great series he had against San Antonio capped off by his unbelievable 3 point play in game 7, and a 50 point game in the crucial game 5 against Phoenix. The only time Dirk has ever "choked" in the playoffs is in the Golden State series, partly because of the way he was used by Avery Johnson, and one free throw against the Heat. In the Heat series, he actually made alot of very clutch shots late, but in the end Wade just got every call going to the rim.

As miles berg said, he put up 25ppg and 11rpg in the playoffs. Stop saying he isn't a clutch performer, because he is. He's made alot more game winning shots and tying shots than Kevin Garnett has in his day. He also didn't need two HOFers to bring him to the finals. Dirk has done some pretty amazing things in the playoffs considering his supporting cast, and doesn't get near the amount of respect he should. This is coming from a Spurs fan.


I agree with you for the most part, but "considering his supporting cast"? You act like he played with bums. Wasn't he once on a team with Nash, prime Finley, prime Jamison, prime Antoine Walker?????

[thesnowman22]

Im not saying West over Bird, but that is an argument u could make either way. Not even close to a "homer" statement.

Dirk, nash, Hornacek- lol. Wow. Too early to tell about Dirk and Nash, Jeff H- ahh, no.

U gotta give the old guys respect. A guy cant decide when hes born. George Mikan, Cousy and these guys would have had access to lots of training innovations had they been born now, it works both ways. Any list without Mikan in the top 10 is irrelavant.

the NBA did not start with Magic and Bird. Read some books guys.

[haji_d_robertas]

The thing I hate about these lists is that most of these guys wouldnt even make the cut on any team in the NBA today. Skillwise, the players today are so far above and beyond then they were back in the pistol pete days its rediculous. Some people seem to not understand that. Yes, Manu Ginobli IS better than a lot of these guys.

So how is greatness judged? Awards? Dominance in your era? Impact on the league? I dont get it. Its like saying the A-track player is more important than the IPOD because it paved the way, but i dont want a ****in A-track player, I want an IPOD damnit


The only way you can make the call is titles, era dominance, league impact and awards. And they called it an 8 track player. And no matter what the delivery system, great music is great music. If you don't know the players or eras, why don't you read about them?

[Sneakerpro]

I agree with you for the most part, but "considering his supporting cast"? You act like he played with bums. Wasn't he once on a team with Nash, prime Finley, prime Jamison, prime Antoine Walker?????

I hate that argument and Kblaze always brings its up.

You can't have three players that play the exact same position and say a team was stacked especially considering that none of their games compliment each other.

If you watched the Mavs that year would you realize that was probably the worst team in the Cuban area.

That's three small forwards forwards with no shot blocking or low post game. Hell that's not even the Maverick team you should be propping up if you want to say he has been on really good teams.

Neither Steve Nash nor John Stockton ever took their teams to the Finals as the lead dog.

Dirk hasn't choked anymore in his career in the playoffs than Kobe Bryant, it's a fact. For every time Dirk has come up short in the playoffs, Kobe has too but the difference is when Kobe won rings he had the best player in NBA history since 1998 on his team. Dirk had to be Shaq, but he damn sure didn't have any sidekicks like Kobe.

It's amazing to me when people say the Mavs suck now but then at the same time bring up how stacked Dirk's teams have been.

I don't think Dirk is the German basketball Jesus that a lot of people make him out to be BUT at time same time when other players do what he has done they get praised while he gets bashed.

It's sad that Josh Howard has admit he smokes weed for people to realize he flat out isn't that good of a basketball player.

Yet just 6 months ago you had people saying he was a better player than Dirk.

[chopchop20]

Im not saying West over Bird, but that is an argument u could make either way. Not even close to a "homer" statement.

Dirk, nash, Hornacek- lol. Wow. Too early to tell about Dirk and Nash, Jeff H- ahh, no.

U gotta give the old guys respect. A guy cant decide when hes born. George Mikan, Cousy and these guys would have had access to lots of training innovations had they been born now, it works both ways. Any list without Mikan in the top 10 is irrelavant.

the NBA did not start with Magic and Bird. Read some books guys.


Agreed -- alot of the kids on this board don't seem to have a clue about basketball before the 80's.

I find it interesting that Dirk is on the list while Tom Chambers is not. Everyone seems to have forgotten about him.

Another guy hat I would put ahead of Hornacek but not in the Top 10 is Mark Price. The guy was an awesome shooter and was good with the rock too.

[Sneakerpro]

Mark Price is very underrated.

Hell you can argue he is better than Nash and it wouldn't be crazy

[chopchop20]

Mark Price is very underrated.

Hell you can argue he is better than Nash and it wouldn't be crazy

I agree, though most people on this board would be outraged.

[BrianScalabrine]

1. Steve Nash
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Larry Bird
5. John Stockton
6. Kevin McHale
7. Tom Chambers
8. John Havlicek
9. Dave Cowens
10. Bob Cousy
11. Chris Mullin
12. Mark Price
13. Pau Gasol
14. Jerry West
15. Bill Walton

[Rekindled]

1. Steve Nash
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Larry Bird
5. John Stockton
6. Kevin McHale
7. Tom Chambers
8. John Havlicek
9. Dave Cowens
10. Bob Cousy
11. Chris Mullin
12. Mark Price
13. Pau Gasol
14. Jerry West
15. Bill Walton


lol:confusedshrug:

[EricForman]

Polls form Inside Hoops? :roll: You're comical. This board is mostly high school kids. And that goes to my point, you don't have an objective basis for your argument. You rely on the popular opinion on a forum -- what a clown.


chop, it's not just iSH polls that ranks bird over west. Every single "greatest players list" i've ever seen has Bird above West.

Let's just look at other factors

who has more rings?

who won more as the best player on their team?

who has more MVPs?

who played in a tougher era?

Funny you bring up PPG as a factor. What about other stats? Bird averaged 28/9/8 on 53% while West's best season was 31/8/5 on 45% shooting

For career Bird is 24/10/6 while West is 27/6/7.

BAse on what do you say West was more skilled?

The man was 1-8 in NBA finals and didn't win until he took a backseat to another player.

now STFU and go away you homer troll. 99% of all basketball fans would rank Bird over West and that's basically fact.

[Mr Know It All]

1. Steve Nash
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Larry Bird
5. John Stockton
6. Kevin McHale
7. Tom Chambers
8. John Havlicek
9. Dave Cowens
10. Bob Cousy
11. Chris Mullin
12. Mark Price
13. Pau Gasol
14. Jerry West
15. Bill Walton

Where's Brian Scalabrine?

[chopchop20]

chop, it's not just iSH polls that ranks bird over west. Every single "greatest players list" i've ever seen has Bird above West.

Let's just look at other factors

who has more rings?

who won more as the best player on their team?

who has more MVPs?

who played in a tougher era?

now STFU and go away you homer troll. 99% of all basketball fans would rank Bird over West and that's basically fact.

You mean the 99% who never saw him play -- ummmm that makes sense.

We know Bird won more rings and MVP's.


who won more as the best player on their team?
West

who played in a tougher era?
totally subjective, no way to say more certain

Let's just look at other factors - Ok....

All Star
West 14-times
Bird 12-times

All-NBA First Team
West 10 times
Bird 9 times

NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
West 4 times
Bird 0

[EricForman]

You mean the 99% who never saw him play -- ummmm that makes sense.

We know Bird won more rings and MVP's.


who won more as the best player on their team?
West

who played in a tougher era?
totally subjective, no way to say more certain

Let's just look at other factors - Ok....

All Star
West 14-times
Bird 12-times

All-NBA First Team
West 10 times
Bird 9 times

NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
West 4 times
Bird 0

Bird won more as the best player on his team? :oldlol:

Won what? Regular season games? Free throw shooting contest?

So everyone who's ever ranked Bird over West (basically every sports publication/website ever) has never seen him play?

You're the oldest dude on earth or what? GTFO here kid.

IF you believe West over Bird, then please enlighten us exactly where you rank Bird? Knowing your homer ass you probably rank Bird a full 15 slots below Magic and around the likes of like, David Robinson or KG.

[haji_d_robertas]

who played in a tougher era?

This is the worst argument, nobody can choose their era.

[JazzDoc]

1. Steve Nash
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Larry Bird
5. John Stockton
6. Kevin McHale
7. Tom Chambers
8. John Havlicek
9. Dave Cowens
10. Bob Cousy
11. Chris Mullin
12. Mark Price
13. Pau Gasol
14. Jerry West
15. Bill Walton

Either this is a joke list or BrianScalabrine knows nothing about the game of basketball.

[chopchop20]

Bird won more as the best player on his team? :oldlol:

Won what? Regular season games? Free throw shooting contest?

So everyone who's ever ranked Bird over West (basically every sports publication/website ever) has never seen him play?

You're the oldest dude on earth or what? GTFO here kid.

IF you believe West over Bird, then please enlighten us exactly where you rank Bird? Knowing your homer ass you probably rank Bird a full 15 slots below Magic and around the likes of like, David Robinson or KG.

Mostly because the Lakers lost so many Finals. If West had more rings, he'd get more props for his accomplishments.

And on this list, I'd rank Bird #2, though Rick Barry is close IMO.

[baseketball4life]

Dirk? Oh I guess your talking about White as in skin, not white as in skin and American.

[Auka]

Dirks a career 25 ppg/11 rpg in the playoffs, led his team to the 3rd most playoff wins of any franchise in the decade of the 2000s, 2nd most regular season wins, and has a MVP on top of it (and should have two, should have gotten the 2006 MVP, not Nash, but Shaq should have gotten the 2005 MVP too, and Nash had a better case for the 2007 MVP than he did either 2005 or 2006, its all messed up). What Dirk has done is extremely special. How many players in history have given his team 50 wins over 8 straight seasons with the type of turnover Dallas has had?



Uhhh dude, who was in Dallas to help with the 50 wins to start with? Steve Nash. Who helped led Phoenix from a 29-53 record to a 62-20 season? Steve Nash. Who has 2 MVPs? Steve Nash. And when you an prove Nash didn't deserve the MVPs I'll believe you.

No homer vote or being bias cause I'm a Suns fan just bringing up points like you.

[sunsfan1357]

Uhhh dude, who was in Dallas to help with the 50 wins to start with? Steve Nash. Who helped led Phoenix from a 29-53 record to a 62-20 season? Steve Nash. Who has 2 MVPs? Steve Nash. And when you an prove Nash didn't deserve the MVPs I'll believe you.

No homer vote or being bias cause I'm a Suns fan just bringing up points like you.

Dirk has been a lot more consistent through his career. 1 MVP and a Finals appearance (which Nash doesn't have). Granted Nash had to play behind Kidd and Johnson in Phoenix he still didn't do much his first two years in Dallas despite getting 30 MPG.

[EricForman]

Mostly because the Lakers lost so many Finals. If West had more rings, he'd get more props for his accomplishments.

And on this list, I'd rank Bird #2, though Rick Barry is close IMO.

so if west was that good why'd he fall short so many times? dont tell me he didn't thave help.

u wanna use crap like all star appearance as an argument for west but not 1-8 in the finals?

[fos]

The thing I hate about these lists is that most of these guys wouldnt even make the cut on any team in the NBA today. Skillwise, the players today are so far above and beyond then they were back in the pistol pete days its rediculous. Some people seem to not understand that. Yes, Manu Ginobli IS better than a lot of these guys.

So how is greatness judged? Awards? Dominance in your era? Impact on the league? I dont get it. Its like saying the A-track player is more important than the IPOD because it paved the way, but i dont want a ****in A-track player, I want an IPOD damnit

You're an idiot. It's 8-track first of all and Manu isn't better than anyone on that list.

[Devientz]

You're an idiot. It's 8-track first of all and Manu isn't better than anyone on that list.
As of today, I am now well aware that its an 8-track. My sincere apologies.

As for the Manu thing...AGAIN, athletes today are stronger, more skilled, better trained, and overall better athletes than the players of the past. I only chose Manu because he was already mentioned by someone else. People seem to overate how good players of the past were because theyre legends. Im not saying Manu belongs any higher than anyone on that list, im just saying he could beat them in a game of 1 on 1. I consider there to be a difference between how good a player was skillwise and that players greatness.

And, I also apologize for not adding anything relevant to this thread
Cheers:cheers:

[snipes12]

jason kidd !
atleast his part white

[JJ81]

A List of the top 10 White players of all time in my order

1 Larry Bird
2 Jerry West
3 Rick barry
4 John Havelick
5 George Milkin
6 Bob Cousy
7 Pistol Pete
8 John Stockton
9 Dave Cowens
10 Dirk

Nash > Dirk?

[chopchop20]

so if west was that good why'd he fall short so many times? dont tell me he didn't thave help.

u wanna use crap like all star appearance as an argument for west but not 1-8 in the finals?

Keep in mind, that West's productivity increased in the playoffs. So, it's not like he choked. La was going up against some great Boston teams and the greatest coach in NBA history.

However, there's no way to defend losing 8 Finals and a lot of people place most of the blame on West. It is what it is, and West admitted that despite his individual success, he was never happy with his career.

[chopchop20]

Where would you guys put Detlef Schrempf on the list?

[Auka]

Dirk has been a lot more consistent through his career. 1 MVP and a Finals appearance (which Nash doesn't have). Granted Nash had to play behind Kidd and Johnson in Phoenix he still didn't do much his first two years in Dallas despite getting 30 MPG.
Wow, finals appearance nothing came out of it, he choked and lost a 2 - 0 lead. Nash has 2 MVPs, which Dirk doesn't have. Sure great, he has 1 but Steve Nash becomes the only point guard next to MAGIC JOHNSON to win back to back MVPs.

[Mr Know It All]

Uhhh dude, who was in Dallas to help with the 50 wins to start with? Steve Nash. Who helped led Phoenix from a 29-53 record to a 62-20 season? Steve Nash. Who has 2 MVPs? Steve Nash. And when you an prove Nash didn't deserve the MVPs I'll believe you.

No homer vote or being bias cause I'm a Suns fan just bringing up points like you.

I can't belive people still think Steve Nash is better than Dirk as a player. Steve Nash was only effective in the Suns' all offense no defense style of play. He flourished as a good shooter and had great athletic guys like Stoudamire and Marion to boost his numbers. In Dallas, the guy was averaging 15 and 8, and blew alot of clutch shots in the playoffs. Steve Nash has never carried a team like Dirk has, he isn't a dominant scorer like Dirk is, and he simply isn't as good as Dirk is.

As far as team improvement goes, when Nash left Dallas they improved as well. What does that say about him? Hell, they went to the Finals a year after he left, he obviously wasn't that valuable. The fact is, Nash is a fun guy to watch, a great shooter, and a nice passer, but he's a liability on defense and is simply a fan favourite. He should not have won the 05 MVP over Shaq, or the 06 MVP over Kobe or Dirk.

People need to stop riding Nash's nuts, he's only been a real good player for about 3 years now. And we saw him decline this past season. He doesn't deserve any place in the top 10 for a good final 5 years of his career, and the popularity contest he won for the MVPs was a joke anyway.

[guy]

You mean the 99% who never saw him play -- ummmm that makes sense.

We know Bird won more rings and MVP's.


who won more as the best player on their team?
West

who played in a tougher era?
totally subjective, no way to say more certain

Let's just look at other factors - Ok....

All Star
West 14-times
Bird 12-times

All-NBA First Team
West 10 times
Bird 9 times

NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
West 4 times
Bird 0

You should take into account that Bird played in a much bigger league, making it harder to make All-Star games, All-NBA first teams, and All-NBA defensive first teams, and even win MVPs. Bird played in a league with 22-27 teams, and West played in a league with 8-17 teams.

[majorhops]

No way does Bird get #1 over Jerry West.
:banghead: :no:
i know im kind of new here but damn. even i know this.

[sunsfan1357]

People seem to overate how good players of the past were because theyre legends.
I think you need to rethink that statement.


Wow, finals appearance nothing came out of it, he choked and lost a 2 - 0 lead. Nash has 2 MVPs, which Dirk doesn't have. Sure great, he has 1 but Steve Nash becomes the only point guard next to MAGIC JOHNSON to win back to back MVPs.

A finals appearance that Nash still doesn't have and one that happened after Nash left the team. Maybe that goes to show who was more important in Dallas. Hell if you want go look at the statistics. Dirk has been averaging 20 and 9 since his third season. Nash has been on the level he's at for only the past four seasons.

[Jimmy2k8]

I feel embarrassed to be a WV citizen and see Jerry West over on Larry Bird on chopchop's list.

[snipes12]

jordan farmar !

[mrhoopfan]

I can't belive people still think Steve Nash is better than Dirk as a player. Steve Nash was only effective in the Suns' all offense no defense style of play. He flourished as a good shooter and had great athletic guys like Stoudamire and Marion to boost his numbers. In Dallas, the guy was averaging 15 and 8, and blew alot of clutch shots in the playoffs. Steve Nash has never carried a team like Dirk has, he isn't a dominant scorer like Dirk is, and he simply isn't as good as Dirk is.

As far as team improvement goes, when Nash left Dallas they improved as well. What does that say about him? Hell, they went to the Finals a year after he left, he obviously wasn't that valuable. The fact is, Nash is a fun guy to watch, a great shooter, and a nice passer, but he's a liability on defense and is simply a fan favourite. He should not have won the 05 MVP over Shaq, or the 06 MVP over Kobe or Dirk.

People need to stop riding Nash's nuts, he's only been a real good player for about 3 years now. And we saw him decline this past season. He doesn't deserve any place in the top 10 for a good final 5 years of his career, and the popularity contest he won for the MVPs was a joke anyway.


I'm a Phoenix fan and I agree for the most part......we'll see what happens now D'Antoni is gone

[RAPSCANWIN]

by the way ginobili is better than some of those playaz


NO he's not....perhaps Nash but not Manu.

[RAPSCANWIN]

This is a joke.....right....





QUOTE=BrianScalabrine]1. Steve Nash
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Larry Bird
5. John Stockton
6. Kevin McHale
7. Tom Chambers
8. John Havlicek
9. Dave Cowens
10. Bob Cousy
11. Chris Mullin
12. Mark Price
13. Pau Gasol
14. Jerry West
15. Bill Walton[/QUOTE]

[-primetime-]

Dirk should be top 5 without question....

he would have dominate in the eras of some of the old timers you guys are listing

[chopchop20]

I feel embarrassed to be a WV citizen and see Jerry West over on Larry Bird on chopchop's list.

Your WV citizenship should be revoked! Ha- JK. Let me ask you this, Do you think Bird would take West in a game of 1-on-1?

[loot]

farmar? yeah kidd and mashburn are white too.



anyway, give chris mullin some love.

[thesnowman22]

by the way- unreal that weve gotten this far without a single Pistol Pete mention. EASY top 10.

[chopchop20]

by the way- unreal that weve gotten this far without a single Pistol Pete mention. EASY top 10.

Without a doubt -- probably the most talented white guy.

[chopchop20]

You should take into account that Bird played in a much bigger league, making it harder to make All-Star games, All-NBA first teams, and All-NBA defensive first teams, and even win MVPs. Bird played in a league with 22-27 teams, and West played in a league with 8-17 teams.

Pat Riley said on ESPN, "Michael (Jordan) may have played the game on a more athletic level, but there is no player who has played the game of basketball better than Jerry West."

[shawbryant]

Dirk is overrated all the time.

[Jimmy2k8]

Your WV citizenship should be revoked! Ha- JK. Let me ask you this, Do you think Bird would take West in a game of 1-on-1?


Don't really know...to be honest, I would say it would be a game that would go on forever...

[guy]

Pat Riley said on ESPN, "Michael (Jordan) may have played the game on a more athletic level, but there is no player who has played the game of basketball better than Jerry West."


Um ok. Fact still remains that getting a certain amount of All-NBA honors and awards back then is not the same as getting the same amount in later years.

[chopchop20]

Um ok. Fact still remains that getting a certain amount of All-NBA honors and awards back then is not the same as getting the same amount in later years.

While that may be true, West would still be a baller today. Think about this, 90% of the players on the board that people discuss everyday will never attain his individual numbers. Outside of Bron, Wade, and Kobe - what guards/forwards will get 25,000 points, finish with the 2nd best playoff scoring average, and 4th overall scoring average in NBA history?

[EricForman]

While that may be true, West would still be a baller today. Think about this, 90% of the players on the board that people discuss everyday will never attain his individual numbers. Outside of Bron, Wade, and Kobe - what guards/forwards will get 25,000 points, finish with the 2nd best playoff scoring average, and 4th overall scoring average in NBA history?

all that and 99% of people will still rank Bird over West on any list.

[chopchop20]

all that and 99% of people will still rank Bird over West on any list.

We already established why that is the case. But when it comes down to numbers, on an individual basis, West trumps Bird -- whether you like or not.

West is still the only guy to win a Finals MVP playing for the losing team (averaged 38 PPG in the 1969 Finals). I'm telling you kids, STUDY your NBA history. Respect the pioneers.

[guy]

While that may be true, West would still be a baller today. Think about this, 90% of the players on the board that people discuss everyday will never attain his individual numbers. Outside of Bron, Wade, and Kobe - what guards/forwards will get 25,000 points, finish with the 2nd best playoff scoring average, and 4th overall scoring average in NBA history?

I never said he wouldn't. But talking about all his individual honors should be taken into context. People like to say "there is no way you can compare eras and that one should be judged by what they did in their own era." IMO thats a bunch of nonsense. I'm not one of those young kids that thinks the 60s was some horrible weak era, cause it was as strong as it could possibly be at the time. However, it was easier to get individual honors/awards back then. Less players = easier to achieve individual honors/awards. Its basic math. If he had started playing in this decade, there is no way he would have 10 All-NBA first teams, especially when he has to share it with players like Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, AI, Nash, Kidd, CP3, etc. He's a pioneer, and one of the greatest ever, but you have to take what he achieved into context.

[guy]

We already established why that is the case. But when it comes down to numbers, on an individual basis, West trumps Bird -- whether you like or not.

West is still the only guy to win a Finals MVP playing for the losing team (averaged 38 PPG in the 1969 Finals). I'm telling you kids, STUDY your NBA history. Respect the pioneers.

Is that supposed to be a greater achievement then winning a Finals MVP playing for the winning team, like Bird did twice?

[AItheAnswer3]

Outside of Bron, Wade, and Kobe - what guards/forwards will get 25,000 points, finish with the 2nd best playoff scoring average, and 4th overall scoring average in NBA history?

Allen Iverson will finish with the 2nd best playoff scoring average :banghead:
Lets not forget AI will also get more than 25K points..He has 23K points already..So you obviously dont know what you're talkin about..probably a AI hater :banghead:
& yeah..He has the 3rd overall scoring average in NBA history

[majorhops]

Good list, I don't know if I'd put Dirk over Josh Stockton just yet though. Would I take Dirk in his prime over Stockton in his prime? Yes, but right now Johnny still has the credentials and the stats to be over Dirk IMO.
http://i38.tinypic.com/j67udd.jpg
There is no way on the marvelous green earth that God created that Dirk, without the use of steroids and some form of training not known to man will ever be as good as John Stockton.

[ShowtymeCA2NC]

A List of the top 10 White players of all time in my order

1 Larry Bird
2 Jerry West
3 Rick barry
4 John Havelick
5 George Milkin
6 Bob Cousy
7 Pistol Pete
8 John Stockton
9 Dave Cowens
10 Dirk


How can you Play my Boy Chris Mullin..Dirk??I like the rest of your list though but dirk and he is european

[EricForman]

We already established why that is the case. But when it comes down to numbers, on an individual basis, West trumps Bird -- whether you like or not.

West is still the only guy to win a Finals MVP playing for the losing team (averaged 38 PPG in the 1969 Finals). I'm telling you kids, STUDY your NBA history. Respect the pioneers.

Look, it's not disrespecting to past to say Bird is above West. Really. Bird and Magic are in the very very top tier of all time greats.

The tiers goes like this:

Jordan
--------

then it's guys like Magic, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Russell. these are all interchangable.

Then one more tier lower are the Doctor Js and the Jerry Wests and the Shaqs and the Tim Duncans.

It's not dissing West to rank Bird above. Bird, just like Magic and Wilt, has a case for GOAT. something West does not.

You keep saying West trumps Bird in individual skills and success base on what? Because West scored more? Bird rebounded far better. And it's not like Bird couldn't score when it mattered.

[Legendofthe718]

Agreed -- alot of the kids on this board don't seem to have a clue about basketball before the 80's.

I find it interesting that Dirk is on the list while Tom Chambers is not. Everyone seems to have forgotten about him.

Another guy hat I would put ahead of Hornacek but not in the Top 10 is Mark Price. The guy was an awesome shooter and was good with the rock too.

WOW, finally someone shows this guy love. Excellent ballhandling, 3pt shooting was ridiculous but being on such a weak Cavaliers team he goes unnoticed. I owe you a rep.

[Jimmy2k8]

I thought this topic was about Top 10 white NBA Players and not about the Top 10 nba players of all time. Stay on topic Ericforman

[chopchop20]

Look, it's not disrespecting to past to say Bird is above West. Really. Bird and Magic are in the very very top tier of all time greats.

The tiers goes like this:

Jordan
--------

then it's guys like Magic, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Russell. these are all interchangable.

Then one more tier lower are the Doctor Js and the Jerry Wests and the Shaqs and the Tim Duncans.

It's not dissing West to rank Bird above. Bird, just like Magic and Wilt, has a case for GOAT. something West does not.

You keep saying West trumps Bird in individual skills and success base on what? Because West scored more? Bird rebounded far better. And it's not like Bird couldn't score when it mattered.

I hear what you're saying, but what you fail to realize is before Jordan, West was the Gold standard for shooting guards (scoring, clutchness, defense), he played at a high level of consistency that the league had not seen up to that point. Statistically, you'd still have to say he's 2nd best shooting guard ever.

West lost 8 Finals, so his legacy will always be tarnished because of that. Bird won 3 rings and in the modern era, people are gonna look at that when comparing him to West. However, if you look at what they did on the court, it is not outrageous to say that West was better than Bird. It's definitely debatable, but don't dismiss it as a "homer" statement -- any knowledgeable basketball fan knows that's not the case.

He's definitely top tier, as deserving as Wilt (who were on a few of those losing teams in the Finals). I'd also have the Big O on that list.

[loot]

So everyone thinks Hornacek >>> Mullin?

[chopchop20]

WOW, finally someone shows this guy love. Excellent ballhandling, 3pt shooting was ridiculous but being on such a weak Cavaliers team he goes unnoticed. I owe you a rep.

I dunno if the Cavs were weak, but they were very soft. And they had the misfortune of running into #23 on a regular basis. The team kinda fell apart after Daugherty retired.

I grew up watching Price when he was at Georgia Tech. I always liked his game because he had the complete package (even tried to shoot like him on the playground). Some of today's PG's could learn a lot from watching his game.

[Niquesports]

I wasnt considering eras in that example. I never compared Manu to any single player. The fact is if you took Manu, or any player in todays league really and took them back in time to the 60's they would dominate the league. So, yes Manu is better than West if you look at it that way. I know thats not how it works and thats irrelevant so forget it.

My point is, how are you supposed to accurately judge the players from today to the players from the past? Your "top 5" method falls way short on that.


An exaple of this would be are you saying that because James posey plays today he's better than Elgin baylor or that Brenden haywood is better than say Bill Russell ???? basketball is much more than just running jumping and dunking. There were players that played with the heart of a champion and were stars and played the game harder and knew the game better than many of todays stars. I think D Wade would be a super star in the old days as well as oscar Robinson would be a star today

[Niquesports]

It's too bad there are so many ignorant basketball fans. Dirk is 5-0 in game 7s, putting up great performances in 2006 against the Spurs, and in 2003 against the Portland Trailblazers. Not to mention the great clutch plays he made in the 2006 Finals run. A three to bascially crush Memphis in the first round, the great series he had against San Antonio capped off by his unbelievable 3 point play in game 7, and a 50 point game in the crucial game 5 against Phoenix. The only time Dirk has ever "choked" in the playoffs is in the Golden State series, partly because of the way he was used by Avery Johnson, and one free throw against the Heat. In the Heat series, he actually made alot of very clutch shots late, but in the end Wade just got every call going to the rim.

As miles berg said, he put up 25ppg and 11rpg in the playoffs. Stop saying he isn't a clutch performer, because he is. He's made alot more game winning shots and tying shots than Kevin Garnett has in his day. He also didn't need two HOFers to bring him to the finals. Dirk has done some pretty amazing things in the playoffs considering his supporting cast, and doesn't get near the amount of respect he should. This is coming from a Spurs fan.

I think he gets all the respect he deserves. I never called KG clutch. Point is Dirk has only lead his team to 1 finals and his support cast has been as good as anyones else since he has been in Dallas.

[Niquesports]

Isn't top 5 in a 150 players-league a bit different then top 5 in a 350 players-league? Not saying West isn't better then Manu, but thats not a good way in judging eras.
That depends on how you look at it. Is Quantity better than quality. If you only have 8 teams of the best players in the world would that make it harder to make the league that if you have 32.

[CelticForce1349]

...And just for the record...

Who are the top ten black basketball players with a light complexion?

[Niquesports]

Better handles, playmaking ability, shooter = Better offensive player

Still the 2nd highest playoff scoring average behind your beloved MJ (5 points higher than Bird) The greatest scoring guard besides you know who.

C'mon... we know when people judge greatness, rings are a big part of the equation. And we know that West's achievements are devalued because he was 1-8 in the NBA Finals.

But make no mistake about, Jerry West was the Michael Jordan before MJ when it comes to individual greatness.

I think you haven't read enough books Oscar was always considered better than West. At best West only at top 5 player in his era behind
Russ
Wilt
Oscar
Elgin

[Niquesports]

Agreed -- alot of the kids on this board don't seem to have a clue about basketball before the 80's.

I find it interesting that Dirk is on the list while Tom Chambers is not. Everyone seems to have forgotten about him.

Another guy hat I would put ahead of Hornacek but not in the Top 10 is Mark Price. The guy was an awesome shooter and was good with the rock too.

I would add Paul Westphal as # 6

[Niquesports]

As of today, I am now well aware that its an 8-track. My sincere apologies.

As for the Manu thing...AGAIN, athletes today are stronger, more skilled, better trained, and overall better athletes than the players of the past. I only chose Manu because he was already mentioned by someone else. People seem to overate how good players of the past were because theyre legends. Im not saying Manu belongs any higher than anyone on that list, im just saying he could beat them in a game of 1 on 1. I consider there to be a difference between how good a player was skillwise and that players greatness.

And, I also apologize for not adding anything relevant to this thread
Cheers:cheers:

This is the mistake many people make.One player is better skilled than another and in a game of 1on 1 he is better. Magic and Bird would have lost many 1on1 games but put 8 other players on the floor and play team basketball no one did it better.

[NY Comeback]

Since when is Dirk Nowitzki white?

lmao @ Some of you

[Niquesports]

Dirk should be top 5 without question....

he would have dominate in the eras of some of the old timers you guys are listing

A soft weak heart jump shooting 6'11 guy would have gotten killed in the 60's 70's and even 80's back in thoses day big guys played big

[guy]

That depends on how you look at it. Is Quantity better than quality. If you only have 8 teams of the best players in the world would that make it harder to make the league that if you have 32.

No. The only way that would be true is if the popularity of basketball as a whole had not grown at all since the days of Jerry West. Basketball's popularity has probably at least tripled or quadrupled since the 60s, meaning more people actually play the game, meaning there's more competition.

[CelticForce1349]

Since when is Dirk Nowitzki white?

lmao @ Some of you


Do you know something no else does?

Who are the top ten black basketball players with a very dark complexion BTW?

Do you guys feel that a white player improves his athletic abilities by getting a tan, or merely deflects attention from his flaws?

[Niquesports]

No. The only way that would be true is if the popularity of basketball as a whole had not grown at all since the days of Jerry West. Basketball's popularity has probably at least tripled or quadrupled since the 60s, meaning more people actually play the game, meaning there's more competition.
More doesnt always mean better.

If the league was cut down to 8 teams that would mean over 70% of the players would not make the league which would mean players like Ray Allen might be a 12 man on a team.

[NY Comeback]

Do you know something no else does?

Who are the top ten black basketball players with a very dark complexion BTW?

Do you guys feel that a white player improves his athletic abilities by getting a tan, or merely deflects attention from his flaws?
I know something you obviously don't. :oldlol:

[guy]

More doesnt always mean better.

If the league was cut down to 8 teams that would mean over 70% of the players would not make the league which would mean players like Ray Allen might be a 12 man on a team.

I don't think your understanding what I'm saying. Basketball has gotten way more popular as a whole, meaning more people in the world play basketball, whether its for leisure, organized leagues, high school, college, professional, etc. For example, if basketball today was as popular as it was back in the 60s, there's probably a bunch of current NBA players that would've never even picked up a ball. I'm not giving any exact figures cause I don't know them, but lets just say while Jerry West was growing up playing basketball back in the 50s, he was among 50 million people around his age doing the same thing, ranging from playing basketball leisurely with friends to playing in high school and college. On the other hand Lebron James was in the same situation in the 90s/00s, but since basketball's popularity has grown so much, he was among 200 million people doing the same thing. So, Lebron had to compete with 4 times as much competition as West did to get where he's at. That's why I say top 5 back then isn't the same thing as top 5 in later years. The league has expanded as the popularity has grown, so there really is no change in quality, just quantity. I mean you can't actually think that Ray Allen transported to the 60s adjusted for evolution and all would be a 12th man.

[CelticForce1349]

[QUOTE=NY Comeback]I know something you obviously don't. :oldlol:[/QUOT



Well... :roll: :oldlol: :roll: :oldlol: can you share it with the rest of us? :applause: :rockon: :applause: :rockon: :party:

[Paladin55]

so if west was that good why'd he fall short so many times? dont tell me he didn't thave help.

u wanna use crap like all star appearance as an argument for west but not 1-8 in the finals?

You are funny, but about as ignorant as the fictional Eric Forman would have been about hoops, friend.

In his prime, West had to compete against the Russell Celtics, and later had to contend with Alcindor and O, and the Knicks with Reed, Frazier, Monroe, Lucas, DeBusschere, Bradley, Jackson, etc.

It was usually West and Baylor and not much else when West was in his prime. One year Baylor averaged 38 PPG and West 30 PPG. He and Baylor were the focal points of any defense that played the Lakers, and for most of his career he did not have a solid big man to play with.

When Wilt showed up, Baylor was 34, Wilt was 32, and West was 30. Baylor only played two years with Wilt and West, and had some injuries, if I remember.

Unlike you, I don't have to look at statistics, because I was a fan back in 1967. West is one of the guys from back then who would be fine today. He could easily be a PG- actually led the league in assists a few years before he retired. Name the best jump shooter in the game today, and he was as good or better. He could also go to the basket- averaged well over 9 foul shots/game over his career, and was clutch. He could pass, rebound, and play man to man D and the passing lanes. He was the guy who you feared the most when there was under a minute to play.

You can easily make a case for West vs Bird or Bird vs West, and if you don't see that I feel sorry for you. I'm a Knicks fan, so I am hardly biased, and I am not the "back in the days type" older fan.

Go back to your stats and YouTube clips and have a good time.

[Devientz]

This is the mistake many people make.One player is better skilled than another and in a game of 1on 1 he is better. Magic and Bird would have lost many 1on1 games but put 8 other players on the floor and play team basketball no one did it better.
And this is the reason that I'm not disputing any of the lists given. I admit im no expert on the NBA of the early years. All I'm saying is that, based mostly on previous threads ive read, a lot of people overate players of the past. Its like if 2 players, one from the 60's and one from this decade won 1 MVP, a lot of people seem to rate the player from the past higher when i think it should be the other way around. The players now are better, and their accomplishments take a lot more work and tallent nowadays

[guy]

And this is the reason that I'm not disputing any of the lists given. I admit im no expert on the NBA of the early years. All I'm saying is that, based mostly on previous threads ive read, a lot of people overate players of the past. Its like if 2 players, one from the 60's and one from this decade won 1 MVP, a lot of people seem to rate the player from the past higher when i think it should be the other way around. The players now are better, and their accomplishments take a lot more work and tallent nowadays

This is what I'm saying. The thing about it is that as popularity has grown, competition has grown, and as that has happened the league has expanded. The one thing that hasn't grown is how much credit one can receive so it takes more work to beat out the increased competition. Its one thing if they gave out more awards and accomplishments, like 2 or 3 NBA championships, 2 or 3 MVPs, and 10-20 All-NBA first team members, but that hasn't happened. And I know someone is going to say that they've added DPOY, 6MOY, and MIP and an All-NBA third team, but no one really cares about those things. No one is going to say Tracy McGrady is better then a certain player due to an MIP and no one is going to say his All-NBA third team selection this year is equivalent to a first or second team in the 60s even though it is..

[greymatter]

We already established why that is the case. But when it comes down to numbers, on an individual basis, West trumps Bird -- whether you like or not.



Using statwhore logic, Wilt Chamberlain would be by far the best player ever to play the game, but no one who isn't one and is in their right mind has him ahead of Jordan. A statwhore would also come to the conclusion that Karl Malone is better than Tim Duncan.

Bird was a superior passer, rebounder, arguably a better shooter, and had 3 other hall of famers he shared the ball with. West had only Elgin Baylor and Chamberlain for a couple seasons when he was way past his prime. If Bird's team needed him to score more, he could have easily done so.

[CelticForce1349]

Using statwhore logic, Wilt Chamberlain would be by far the best player ever to play the game, but no one who isn't one and is in their right mind has him ahead of Jordan. A statwhore would also come to the conclusion that Karl Malone is better than Tim Duncan.

Bird was a superior passer, rebounder, arguably a better shooter, and had 3 other hall of famers he shared the ball with. West had only Elgin Baylor and Chamberlain for a couple seasons when he was way past his prime. If Bird's team needed him to score more, he could have easily done so.


Nice post. The only thing I would like to add is that team play was so important to those Championship Celtics teams with Bird. Being the highest scorer each night was rarely ever Bird's desire but Larry certainly could do it if needed.

[EricForman]

You are funny, but about as ignorant as the fictional Eric Forman would have been about hoops, friend.

In his prime, West had to compete against the Russell Celtics, and later had to contend with Alcindor and O, and the Knicks with Reed, Frazier, Monroe, Lucas, DeBusschere, Bradley, Jackson, etc.

It was usually West and Baylor and not much else when West was in his prime. One year Baylor averaged 38 PPG and West 30 PPG. He and Baylor were the focal points of any defense that played the Lakers, and for most of his career he did not have a solid big man to play with.

When Wilt showed up, Baylor was 34, Wilt was 32, and West was 30. Baylor only played two years with Wilt and West, and had some injuries, if I remember.

Unlike you, I don't have to look at statistics, because I was a fan back in 1967. West is one of the guys from back then who would be fine today. He could easily be a PG- actually led the league in assists a few years before he retired. Name the best jump shooter in the game today, and he was as good or better. He could also go to the basket- averaged well over 9 foul shots/game over his career, and was clutch. He could pass, rebound, and play man to man D and the passing lanes. He was the guy who you feared the most when there was under a minute to play.

You can easily make a case for West vs Bird or Bird vs West, and if you don't see that I feel sorry for you. I'm a Knicks fan, so I am hardly biased, and I am not the "back in the days type" older fan.

Go back to your stats and YouTube clips and have a good time.

Wow you get so defensive and condescending just because I said Bird over West.

Let me ask you somethng-- then why was it that Bird was always considered one of the very best, or at lest top 3 during his time in the league while West wasn't? Or are you giong to say he was better than Wilt and Kareem and Oscar and Russell? Because those are the guys you named that West had to go up against (hence why he came up short).

No one ever makes excuses for Webber coming up short or Dirk coming up short. But the logic applies to West. :confusedshrug:

And I dunno why you're talking down to me because I wasn't old enough to watch the games back then. It just means your ass is old. And really, stop with the "I've seen the games you haven't" crap. I've never seen a list where West goes above Bird ever, by any sports publication or fan poll or anything. Sure you acn pull the "they dont know what they talking about" on a few, maybe even half. But ALL? What, no one that ever worked for those sports publication have seen West play? And they're all influenced by other factors like you old timers claim?

Don't hate technology. Youtube allows us to catch up to basketball knowledge so old people like you start to feel insecure.

[Godfather]

Wow you get so defensive and condescending just because I said Bird over West.

Let me ask you somethng-- then why was it that Bird was always considered one of the very best, or at lest top 3 during his time in the league while West wasn't? Or are you giong to say he was better than Wilt and Kareem and Oscar and Russell? Because those are the guys you named that West had to go up against (hence why he came up short).

No one ever makes excuses for Webber coming up short or Dirk coming up short. But the logic applies to West. :confusedshrug:

And I dunno why you're talking down to me because I wasn't old enough to watch the games back then. It just means your ass is old.

Don't hate technology. Youtube allows us to catch up to basketball knowledge so old people like you start to feel insecure.

:roll::applause:

[haji_d_robertas]

And this is the reason that I'm not disputing any of the lists given. I admit im no expert on the NBA of the early years. All I'm saying is that, based mostly on previous threads ive read, a lot of people overate players of the past. Its like if 2 players, one from the 60's and one from this decade won 1 MVP, a lot of people seem to rate the player from the past higher when i think it should be the other way around. The players now are better, and their accomplishments take a lot more work and tallent nowadays

Actually, the opposite is true. Certain posters have made it their life's mission to disparage and discredit the players from the past. Their only argument seems to be "if they played today they would be scrubs," and we all know that that is absolutely impossible to prove or disprove. I do not think players from the past are overrated on this board, I think most intelligent basketball fans are able to put things in perspective just fine without someone constantly barking out how they should rate, perceive or understand the players and the game that today's NBA is built upon. People just don't want to be told how to think and what opinion to have. They step up to defend players from previous eras because they don't want the history of the game to be warped to suit a small minority of posters. I think Bird/West is debatable, but it should not be taken too seriously, because the reality is, we'll never see a Jerry West or a Larry Bird ever again, they are two of the greatest ballers ever, white or black. And who you think is greater is all a matter of opinion and conjecture anyway, because those two guys forgot more about the game of basketball than we'll ever know.

[RajonKGcelts]

Barry before Havelick is a joke, being a Celtics fan aside. Really? Wheres Mchale too?

[sunsfan1357]

Using statwhore logic, Wilt Chamberlain would be by far the best player ever to play the game, but no one who isn't one and is in their right mind has him ahead of Jordan. A statwhore would also come to the conclusion that Karl Malone is better than Tim Duncan.

Speak for yourself. There have been many well respected posters here and "professional" analysts that put Wilt as the GOAT. Thing is people like you don't leave much room to debate because your mind is already made up and can't look at things objectively.

As for Bird vs. West they really are interchangeable. Thing is for the stat whores it's hard to compare the two because three-pointers, steals, turnovers, and blocks didn't become an official stat West's career. West's most memorable play (the halfcourt shot vs. the Knicks) only counted as a two if you remember. They were on pretty equal footing as complete offensive players. Bird was a better rebounder while West was a better overall defender. I don't see how you can CLEARLY put one over the other.

[chopchop20]

Wow you get so defensive and condescending just because I said Bird over West.

Let me ask you somethng-- then why was it that Bird was always considered one of the very best, or at lest top 3 during his time in the league while West wasn't? Or are you giong to say he was better than Wilt and Kareem and Oscar and Russell? Because those are the guys you named that West had to go up against (hence why he came up short).

No one ever makes excuses for Webber coming up short or Dirk coming up short. But the logic applies to West. :confusedshrug:

And I dunno why you're talking down to me because I wasn't old enough to watch the games back then. It just means your ass is old. And really, stop with the "I've seen the games you haven't" crap. I've never seen a list where West goes above Bird ever, by any sports publication or fan poll or anything. Sure you acn pull the "they dont know what they talking about" on a few, maybe even half. But ALL? What, no one that ever worked for those sports publication have seen West play? And they're all influenced by other factors like you old timers claim?

Don't hate technology. Youtube allows us to catch up to basketball knowledge so old people like you start to feel insecure.

No hate, but I do feel sorry for your parents.

[AllenIverson3]

yeah, Milkin was a good one

ITS MIKAN LOL

[AllenIverson3]

Since when is Dirk Nowitzki white?

lmao @ Some of you

ARE U ****ING RETARDED?
WTF IS HE MEXICAN THEN?
:banghead:

[CelticForce1349]

ARE U ****ING RETARDED?
WTF IS HE MEXICAN THEN?
:banghead:


Thank you.

[fos]

Bird, Lebron, Stockton... After that who cares.

Sorry I have decided that Lebron James is white. Deal with it ******s. :lol

[picc84]

No love for Arvydas Sabonis?

[Niquesports]

You are funny, but about as ignorant as the fictional Eric Forman would have been about hoops, friend.

In his prime, West had to compete against the Russell Celtics, and later had to contend with Alcindor and O, and the Knicks with Reed, Frazier, Monroe, Lucas, DeBusschere, Bradley, Jackson, etc.

It was usually West and Baylor and not much else when West was in his prime. One year Baylor averaged 38 PPG and West 30 PPG. He and Baylor were the focal points of any defense that played the Lakers, and for most of his career he did not have a solid big man to play with.

When Wilt showed up, Baylor was 34, Wilt was 32, and West was 30. Baylor only played two years with Wilt and West, and had some injuries, if I remember.

Unlike you, I don't have to look at statistics, because I was a fan back in 1967. West is one of the guys from back then who would be fine today. He could easily be a PG- actually led the league in assists a few years before he retired. Name the best jump shooter in the game today, and he was as good or better. He could also go to the basket- averaged well over 9 foul shots/game over his career, and was clutch. He could pass, rebound, and play man to man D and the passing lanes. He was the guy who you feared the most when there was under a minute to play.

You can easily make a case for West vs Bird or Bird vs West, and if you don't see that I feel sorry for you. I'm a Knicks fan, so I am hardly biased, and I am not the "back in the days type" older fan.

Go back to your stats and YouTube clips and have a good time.

I with this guy. West was a tough player big time in big games .My only problem is that he was never the No 1 or 2 player in the league. For that matter No 3 He was always behind Russ Wilt and The Big O and mant times behind Elgin. Where Bird for most of his career was 1 or 2 sometimes 1 B with Magic

[Niquesports]

And this is the reason that I'm not disputing any of the lists given. I admit im no expert on the NBA of the early years. All I'm saying is that, based mostly on previous threads ive read, a lot of people overate players of the past. Its like if 2 players, one from the 60's and one from this decade won 1 MVP, a lot of people seem to rate the player from the past higher when i think it should be the other way around. The players now are better, and their accomplishments take a lot more work and tallent nowadays
Thats hard to say . Lets take Nash
He has 2 back to back MVP and he is off the top of my the the worst player in league history that has more than 1 MVP. So you cant just say because he plays in todays era he's better than say Cousy.
Elgin jumped high
Connie Hawkins jumped higher
Dr J jumped higher than Hawk
MJ jumped higher than Doc
and now you have a 6'8 250lb player that jumps higher than them all in LBJ but that doesnt make LBJ the best "PLAYER" at this point in his career I would take all 4 over LBj now maybe when its all said and done he past past some or all but right now he's behind .

[Niquesports]

Using statwhore logic, Wilt Chamberlain would be by far the best player ever to play the game, but no one who isn't one and is in their right mind has him ahead of Jordan. A statwhore would also come to the conclusion that Karl Malone is better than Tim Duncan.

Bird was a superior passer, rebounder, arguably a better shooter, and had 3 other hall of famers he shared the ball with. West had only Elgin Baylor and Chamberlain for a couple seasons when he was way past his prime. If Bird's team needed him to score more, he could have easily done so.


Ok lets get 1 thing straight when Jordan was playing against top tier teams he lost lost agaisnt Boston lost agist the Pistons he was beating a Knick team tht had pat and 2 CBA players the Cavs that were good but not great A Jordan lead team has never beaten a "GREAT TEAM" . Wilt only lost against the greatest pro sports team ever.
Karl and Tim is also very close. KArl in my IMO is one of the most underated forwards of all time many poster have Mchale ahead of him :banghead:

[Niquesports]

Barry before Havelick is a joke, being a Celtics fan aside. Really? Wheres Mchale too?
He's where he belongs # 19 behind

paul Westphaul
John Stockton
Chris Mullin
Tom Chambers
Bob Pettie
Jerry Lucus
Gail Goodrich
Bill Walton

[Niquesports]

1. Bird
2. Stockton

(huge gap)

3. McHale
4. Walton
5. Dirk
6. Nash
7. Mullin
8. Chambers
9. West
10. Havlicek

Mikan and Pettit are left off the list for obvious reasons.


I have had a hard day at work and want to thank you for a good laugh
Mchale over Havlicek :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: West behind Dirk:roll: Walton a player that his peek was at best 100 games :roll:

Thanks kid now post a serious list

[Niquesports]

I have to admit that I may have slightly overrated Walton,
But Walton was great when he played but the rest of the list is perfect. West and Havlicek are lucky to even be on the list, and McHale was a far, far better player than John "I chose to be 6th man even though I could have started" Havlicek.

Question the first year Mchale won a ring wasnt he a "6th" man?
If you dont know yes he was .

Let Havlicek be the franchise player on any team other than the '60s Celtics, and he'd have been nothing. McHale was the defensive anchor of the best Boston Celtics team the game has ever seen. He was also a much more skilled player than Havlicek.
Well to help you out he played well into the 70's and was the best player on the 76 team that beat the Suns . More skilled??? Hondo was one of the most versitile players in the history of the game Mchale was limited to post play
As for Dirk... at least he can't say that he choked in a Finals and won it all by being outplayed by 4 of his own teammates. In 2006, Dallas' success depended on Dirk's play. The same cannot be said for 1972 Jerry "Mr. Choke" West, who shot pitiful percentages throughout the entire playoffs and capped it off with the absolute worst Finals performance the game will EVER see. How did West end up with a ring (his only ring, I should add) despite playing so poorly? Well, it has to something to do with riding the coattails of the greatest center ever and also being outplayed by Hairston, McMillian, and Goodrich. I can name 30 players who are more deserving of the NBA logo than Jerry West.

WHy did you just pick 72. How did he do the other years DiD Dirk win the finals MVp when he lost agaist the Heat ??????

[Psileas]

That damned BULLS and his aliases has covered almost half my ignore list.


WHy did you just pick 72. How did he do the other years

In the Finals? Oh, he "sucked":

1962: 30.9 ppg
1963: 29.5 ppg
1965: 33.8 ppg
1966: 33.9 ppg
1968: 31.3 ppg
1969: 37.9 ppg
1970: 31.3 ppg, 7.7 apg
1972: 19.8 ppg, 8.8 apg
1973: 21.4 ppg, 4.6 apg

As you see, he was a choker in the Finals and clearly the reason the Lakers lost so many championships...

[Mr Know It All]

http://i38.tinypic.com/j67udd.jpg
There is no way on the marvelous green earth that God created that Dirk, without the use of steroids and some form of training not known to man will ever be as good as John Stockton.

Alright, let me fix my post then:

Dirk is a better player than John Stockton and always will be. Dirk can take over a game on any given night with his scoring and size, John Stockton couldn't. Dirk didn't need a HOFer to get him to an NBA Finals, John Stockton did. Dirk wasn't playing with a top 5 PG of all time, like Stockton was playing with a top 5 PF of all time.

Dirk is, was, and always will be more talented and anyone with a brain would take the most versatile 7 foot scorer to ever play the game over little Johnny.

[chopchop20]

[QUOTE=33 23]I picked '72 because we've never seen anything like it. If I were to start a thread titled

[NY Comeback]

ARE U ****ING RETARDED?
WTF IS HE MEXICAN THEN?
:banghead:
Oh my god....you can't be serious. Why are posters in the main forum so ignorant now? Baffling. :oldlol:

[EricForman]

No hate, but I do feel sorry for your parents.


Yes, feel sorry for my parents because I think Bird is over West.

:confusedshrug:

Listen, you initially implied there was this gap between West and Bird and that NO WAY should Bird be over West. You've seen backed off that stance and conceded its actually alot closer and that 99% of people do rank Bird over West (although you claim its unfairly based off West's 1-8 in the finals)

Who's the one that backed off their initial point?

You did.

And let me ask you this so I get a bigger understanding of your Laker homerism...

Would you rank West over Magic? If not, how far apart do you have those two and where does Bird belong?

I'm really curious because Bird and Magic should be justabout even/neck and neck in any rankings but I have a feeling you've got some wack rankings since you feel West is over Bird. But at th esame time no Laker homer will ever rank anyone over Magic, hence you probably have MAgic on some crazy pedestal over Bird.

[Sroek]

Sarcasm... or ignorance?

It's MIKAN, not MILKAN

[BrianScalabrine]

Any Laker player does not belong in any top 10 greatest player list at all times.

[chopchop20]

Yes, feel sorry for my parents because I think Bird is over West.

:confusedshrug:

Listen, you initially implied there was this gap between West and Bird and that NO WAY should Bird be over West. You've seen backed off that stance and conceded its actually alot closer and that 99% of people do rank Bird over West (although you claim its unfairly based off West's 1-8 in the finals)

Who's the one that backed off their initial point?

You did.

And let me ask you this so I get a bigger understanding of your Laker homerism...

Would you rank West over Magic? If not, how far apart do you have those two and where does Bird belong?

I'm really curious because Bird and Magic should be justabout even/neck and neck in any rankings but I have a feeling you've got some wack rankings since you feel West is over Bird. But at th esame time no Laker homer will ever rank anyone over Magic, hence you probably have MAgic on some crazy pedestal over Bird.

You said ---> "Youtube allows us to catch up to basketball knowledge so old people like you start to feel insecure."

I think that says it all.

[Paladin55]

Wow you get so defensive and condescending just because I said Bird over West.


I an not upset with you thinking that Bird was better than West!!

You could not even comprehend what I wrote!

If I was starting a team and I had to choose between the two I would probably take Bird, but to dismiss West as you did indicates some major flaws in how you perceive things.

It is how you express yourself and defend your point, not necessarily the point you are trying to defend, which I take exception to.

You had no idea of the teams that West was up against, and as a 6'2"+ guard, you are not going to win a title on your own. Nobody wins a title without help, and that includes MJ, Bird, Magic, Russell, etc..

And by the way, the day I feel "insecure" when dealing with you, is the day when I really will consider myself to be "old."

[haji_d_robertas]

My apologies for giving you all the wrong FG% for West that series. It was actually an even more pathetic 32.5 FG% (38-117 FG-FGA).

Some things to think about:

Despite chucking up 117 field goals, he shot a worse percentage than every player who attempted 8 or more field goals except Pat Riley, who only attempted 33 field goals.

The best player of the series and on his own team was Wilt, who took 52 fewer FGA despite shooting 60% and being the reason Jerry West has a championship ring (honestly, West should give his to Wilt for bailing him out like that).

Goodrich shot 46% and McMillian shot 37%. Neither of them attempted over 100 shots. What the hell gave West the right to take so many FGA? He was the worst starter on the floor.

There are other ways to win basketball games. Averaging 8.9 APG in the playoffs is one of those ways. Just bringing up something you probably don't want to hear, you endlessly prattling child.

[haji_d_robertas]

Certain posters have made it their life's mission to disparage and discredit the players from the past. Their only argument seems to be "if they played today they would be scrubs," and we all know that that is absolutely impossible to prove or disprove. I do not think players from the past are overrated on this board, I think most intelligent basketball fans are able to put things in perspective just fine without someone constantly barking out how they should rate, perceive or understand the players and the game that today's NBA is built upon. People just don't want to be told how to think and what opinion to have. They step up to defend players from previous eras because they don't want the history of the game to be warped to suit a small minority of posters. I think Bird/West is debatable, but it should not be taken too seriously, because the reality is, we'll never see a Jerry West or a Larry Bird ever again, they are two of the greatest ballers ever, white or black. And who you think is greater is all a matter of opinion and conjecture anyway, because those two guys forgot more about the game of basketball than we'll ever know.

[EricForman]

You had no idea of the teams that West was up against, and as a 6'2"+ guard, you are not going to win a title on your own. Nobody wins a title without help, and that includes MJ, Bird, Magic, Russell, etc..

And by the way, the day I feel "insecure" when dealing with you, is the day when I really will consider myself to be "old."


So why excues for West? Now suddenly because he's a 6'2 shoot first guard he should be excused? Bird is a superior player because he's not an undersized guard.

West went 1-8 in the finals. When he put up numbers they lost, the one year he won he didnt put up numbers.

What the hell are you two even arguing about ? All I'm saying is Bird is ranked higher than West on any list, EVER. And you two are saying beacuse he didn't have help or because he was a 6'2 shooting guard. wtf?

And you are old.

[EricForman]

You said ---> "Youtube allows us to catch up to basketball knowledge so old people like you start to feel insecure."

I think that says it all.

Obviously, if someone wasn't born yet when the old timers play, the best thing they can do is go and dig up old footage and watch.

Only condescending fools on high horses like you and that Paladin clown believes you guys are superior because you guys actually saw them play live. All that means is you were born before us. It doesn't somehow make your basketball knowledge superior or make you smarter.

It's a dumbass logic that insecure cats like you apply.

Say for example, in 2020, an 18 year old claims Lebron was better than Jason Kidd. It'd be pretty dumb for me to say "you never seen Kidd play live, you only seen kidd on DVDs and video clips, what do you know?"

And I dunno if I buy the fact you're old too Chopchop, I can buy Paladin being old cause he's so ****, but you've always been known as a Kobe groupie here... you'r eprobably younger than I am. You're just defending West cause he's a Laker.

[20 Dimes A Game]

No way does Bird get #1 over Jerry West.

:roll: Go and die.

[CelticForce1349]

So why excues for West? Now suddenly because he's a 6'2 shoot first guard he should be excused? Bird is a superior player because he's not an undersized guard.

West went 1-8 in the finals. When he put up numbers they lost, the one year he won he didnt put up numbers.

What the hell are you two even arguing about ? All I'm saying is Bird is ranked higher than West on any list, EVER. And you two are saying beacuse he didn't have help or because he was a 6'2 shooting guard. wtf?

And you are old.


Why are you taking such a harsh tone towards Paladin55? I don't get the impression that he is talking to you without respect so why are you not giving him his proper respect?

[biisak]

Obviously, if someone wasn't born yet when the old timers play, the best thing they can do is go and dig up old footage and watch.

Only condescending fools on high horses like you and that Paladin clown believes you guys are superior because you guys actually saw them play live. All that means is you were born before us. It doesn't somehow make your basketball knowledge superior or make you smarter.

It's a dumbass logic that insecure cats like you apply.

Say for example, in 2020, an 18 year old claims Lebron was better than Jason Kidd. It'd be pretty dumb for me to say "you never seen Kidd play live, you only seen kidd on DVDs and video clips, what do you know?"

And I dunno if I buy the fact you're old too Chopchop, I can buy Paladin being old cause he's so ****, but you've always been known as a Kobe groupie here... you'r eprobably younger than I am. You're just defending West cause he's a Laker.

What? Of course you

[Scott Pippen]

Don't hate technology. Youtube allows us to catch up to basketball knowledge so old people like you start to feel insecure.

Youtube? There is maybe 1 full Jerry West game on Youtube and alot of footage from 1960s does not exist.

[Niquesports]

That damned BULLS and his aliases has covered almost half my ignore list.



In the Finals? Oh, he "sucked":

1962: 30.9 ppg
1963: 29.5 ppg
1965: 33.8 ppg
1966: 33.9 ppg
1968: 31.3 ppg
1969: 37.9 ppg
1970: 31.3 ppg, 7.7 apg
1972: 19.8 ppg, 8.8 apg
1973: 21.4 ppg, 4.6 apg

As you see, he was a choker in the Finals and clearly the reason the Lakers lost so many championships...

How is this showing he choked in the finals?
I guess Russ Sam Jones and Hondo didnt have anything to do with the lakers losing

[Psileas]

How is this showing he choked in the finals?
I guess Russ Sam Jones and Hondo didnt have anything to do with the lakers losing

I was clearly sarcastic, man. After all, if I wanted to make a point of someone choking, I wouldn't add his 1962-1970 Finals' stats at all. West holds the records for most 30+ ppg Finals series and most 40+ point Finals games.

[haji_d_robertas]

By taking 52 more FGA than the best player on your team and shooting worse than all but one player who played a major role, you are hurting your team more than you are helping. Mr. Chuck was still bitter over losing the 1969 Finals in 7 games, so in 1972, he decided to come out chucking like no player had ever chucked before. Why did he decide to play this way only in 1972? Answer is simple: He knew Wilt would bail him out in case he failed miserably (which he did).

:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol: :roll: :oldlol: :roll:




Bird/West isn't debatable at all. Bird was clearly better, never choked in a playoff series the way West did during the entire '72 playoffs, and won 3 rings without the help of the most dominant center of his generation. We probably won't see another Bird again, but we have already seen plenty of 6'3'' or shorter white players who were much better than West.

Prattle on, child.

[haji_d_robertas]

Certain posters have made it their life's mission to disparage and discredit the players from the past. Their only argument seems to be "if they played today they would be scrubs," and we all know that that is absolutely impossible to prove or disprove. I do not think players from the past are overrated on this board, I think most intelligent basketball fans are able to put things in perspective just fine without someone constantly barking out how they should rate, perceive or understand the players and the game that today's NBA is built upon. People just don't want to be told how to think and what opinion to have. They step up to defend players from previous eras because they don't want the history of the game to be warped to suit a small minority of posters. I think Bird/West is debatable, but it should not be taken too seriously, because the reality is, we'll never see a Jerry West or a Larry Bird ever again, they are two of the greatest ballers ever, white or black. And who you think is greater is all a matter of opinion and conjecture anyway, because those two guys forgot more about the game of basketball than we'll ever know.

[Niquesports]

I was clearly sarcastic, man. After all, if I wanted to make a point of someone choking, I wouldn't add his 1962-1970 Finals' stats at all. West holds the records for most 30+ ppg Finals series and most 40+ point Finals games.


Well you sure had me man. i was like wow

[chopchop20]

Obviously, if someone wasn't born yet when the old timers play, the best thing they can do is go and dig up old footage and watch.

Only condescending fools on high horses like you and that Paladin clown believes you guys are superior because you guys actually saw them play live. All that means is you were born before us. It doesn't somehow make your basketball knowledge superior or make you smarter.

It's a dumbass logic that insecure cats like you apply.

Say for example, in 2020, an 18 year old claims Lebron was better than Jason Kidd. It'd be pretty dumb for me to say "you never seen Kidd play live, you only seen kidd on DVDs and video clips, what do you know?"

And I dunno if I buy the fact you're old too Chopchop, I can buy Paladin being old cause he's so ****, but you've always been known as a Kobe groupie here... you'r eprobably younger than I am. You're just defending West cause he's a Laker.

Watch some more Youtube, son.