Phil Jackson: Rodman is the greatest athlete I've ever coached

[gotbacon23]

interesting yahoo tidbid:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Phil-Jackson-Rodman-is-the-greatest-athlete-I-v?urn=nba,103886

the guy was a freak- since 1977-78 season, he has 4 of the top 5 seasons for rebounds per game: 18.7 (1st), 18.3 (2nd) , 17.3 (4th) , 16.8 (5th)- moses malone is 3rd with 17.6 and led the NBA in rebounding from 1991-92 to 1997-1998. hard to argue with phil there.

who is comparable today to rodman? reggie evans? dwight howard? tyson chandler? david lee?

and who do you think is the most athletic player phil has ever coached?

[MaxFly]

This is going to start trouble.

[Mathius]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius

[Loki]

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

All that means is that you were wrong...a LOOOONG time ago.

[gotbacon23]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius

i don't know if he would have been a better offensive player just because he was more athletic. by that assumption usain bolt, michael phelps, or lance armstrong could become a great offensive basketball players just because they are 3 of the most athletic people in the history of the world. athleticism (in terms of running, jumping, strength, etc) doesn't always translate to a specific skill set.

having said that- if you were to choose 1 player ever and his job was to "get the ball" rodman would have to be the guy- diving on the floor, rebounding, steals, etc- if their was a loose ball, it was his more times than not.

[Loki]

i don't know if he would have been a better offensive player just because he was more athletic. by that assumption usain bolt, michael phelps, or lance armstrong could become a great offensive basketball players just because they are 3 of the most athletic people in the history of the world. athleticism (in terms of running, jumping, strength, etc) doesn't always translate to a specific skill set.

To say nothing of the fact that Rodman wasn't nearly as athletic as Jordan (or Kobe or Pippen or Shaq). Jackson's off his rocker on this one.

[Heretik32]

Jackson's off his rocker on this one.

He often is. He just says things to be in the media again, and it's offseason at the moment. So what's an attention whore to do?

[k-vil]

So now its great to coach a player who left his sneakers for practice?

[Young Money]

Saying someone is the greatest athlete they've been around is a far cry from saying someone is the greatest basketball player they've been around or seen. saying someone is a great athlete is just another way to me of saying that this person had the athletic ability to do anything they wanted if they put their mind to it and developed their skill in that particular matter. He might be speaking honestly in his opinion. The guy was the best rebounder for his time because he chose to focus on that.


Rodman, even though at SEOklahoma College, put up 25ppg and 15rpg for his career.

[R.I.P.]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Heretik32]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius

http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/1115/100864/f/663545-Grumpy-old-lady-0.jpg

[MastahX]

Did you forget Rodman was not coordinated at all? He looked like a girl out there trying to shoot or pass the ball.

You're a crack head

[Rekindled]

interesting yahoo tidbid:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Phil-Jackson-Rodman-is-the-greatest-athlete-I-v?urn=nba,103886

the guy was a freak- since 1977-78 season, he has 4 of the top 5 seasons for rebounds per game: 18.7 (1st), 18.3 (2nd) , 17.3 (4th) , 16.8 (5th)- moses malone is 3rd with 17.6 and led the NBA in rebounding from 1991-92 to 1997-1998. hard to argue with phil there.

who is comparable today to rodman? reggie evans? dwight howard? tyson chandler? david lee?

and who do you think is the most athletic player phil has ever coached?

????????????????????????????

[mlh1981]

I don't know that Rodman would've fared well as an offensive player. Playing at that 4 spot, alot of what he accomplished was due to his tenacity. I doubt that in his era of big, muscular power forwards, that he could've posted people up and what not. He wasn't a very imposing figure. Active, yeah, but physically dominating enough to play the interior on offense? Not sure.

[ManlyStanley69]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius

Somebody needs a hug.

[Kebab Stall]

Rodman is far and away one of my favourite players. But to say that he could have been as good as someone like Michael Jordan on offense is crazy. Rodman often looked lost on offense, even moreso when he actually had the ball, he usually just set screens and then went after the offensive board, that was basically his job and he done extremely well.

Rodman's job was to rebound and play defense. When he played for Detroit, San Antonio and Chicago (let's not count those years in LA and Dallas) there were plenty of guys who could do the job offensively which resulted in stunting Rodman's offensive game. However, he decided to work hard at every other area of his game, defense, rebounding, hustle et cetera.

[PsychoWorm]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

Way to generalise and call the entire ISH community f-ing idiots. Yes Malthius, like you are the one person on this entire board who is not moron :confusedshrug:


I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

I'm a massive Rodman fan, but i do not agree. Jordan was the most efficient offensive player of all time IMO. Rodman was quick off the floor, and had an excellent 2nd (and 3rd and 4th etc.) jump ability. He was built to rebound, and his body was the prototype for a rebounding forward. He averaged 25 points in college and he says in his biography that in his first 2 years in the league he was focused on scoring, because he thought that was how you got it done it the NBA. He averaged 6.5 and 11.6 ppg respectively those 2 years, the 11.6 being his career high. Not exactly GOAT scoring potential numbers. Regardless of how much of an athletic freak he was, he still looked awkward as hell when he had the ball in his hands. He was too short to be a dominant post scorer and too powerful to be a dominant open-floor player.


Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

I agree, that's why he is the GOAT rebounder. He was quick as hell, had a great instinct for the ball and was fearless. However, when he did pull down those boards, he was generally giving it up to the guys who could score better, not powering to the rack and dunking on everyone like a Shawn Kemp.


Mathius

F@ck that's annoying, and you wonder why people dislike you.

[Heretik32]

Rodman's job was to rebound and play defense. When he played for Detroit, San Antonio and Chicago (let's not count those years in LA and Dallas) there were plenty of guys who could do the job offensively which resulted in stunting Rodman's offensive game. However, he decided to work hard at every other area of his game, defense, rebounding, hustle et cetera.

Exactly. And what made him maybe the most valuable role player of all time was his willingness to accept his role. The guy just didn't care about touches on offense.

[gotbacon23]

????????????????????????????

if you take individual seasons since 77-78, rodman has 4 of the top 5 rebounding years. i just picked that season since it was 30 years ago and a year after the ABA merger. i didn't compare him to people in the 40s-early-mid 70s as players like chamberlain, russell, nate thurmond, jerry lucas, and bob petitt each had MULTIPLE seasons of averaging more than 20 rebounds a game. statistically the eras aren't comparable- can you imagine someone averaging 20 a game now.

it just makes it that more impressive for rodman- check this out

league leaders rebounding/runner up
1991-92 dennis rodman 18.7, kevin willis 15.5 (+3.2 for rodman)
1992-93 rodman 18.3, shaq 13.9 (+4.4)
1993-94 rodman 17.3, shaq 13.2 (+4.1)
1994-95 rodman 16.8, mutombo 12.5 (+4.3)
1995-96 rodman 14.9, d.robinson 12.2 (+2.7)
1996-97 rodman 16.1, mutombo 11.6 (+4.5)
1997-98 rodman 15.0, jayson williams 13.6 (+1.4)
1998-99 webber 13.0, barkley 12.3 (+0.7)
1999-00 mutombo 14.1, shaq 13.6 (+0.5)
2000-01 mutombo 13.5, b. wallace 13.2 (+0.3)
2001-02 b. wallace 13.0, duncan 12.7 (+0.3)
2002-03 b. wallace 15.4, garnett 13.4 (+2.0)
2003-04 garnett 13.9, duncan 12.4 (+1.5)
2004-05 garnett 13.5, wallace 12.2 (+1.3)
2005-06 garnett 12.7, d. howard 12.5 (+0.2)
2006-07 garnett 12.8, chandler 12.4 (+0.4)
2007-08 howard 14.2, camby 13.1 (+1.2)

so- rodman's LOWEST rpg for that stretch was 14.9- only 1 player has surpassed that for a season since then (ben wallace- 15.4) and only 1 even reached that total during that strench (15.5 for willis). 5 of the 7 times rodman led the nba in rebounding, he out-rebounded the runner up by more than 3 rebounds per game- only once since then has anyone even outrebounded the runner up by 2 rebounds per game (also wallace)! thats pretty significant. rodman may be the most dominant rebounder ever.

i'm not saying that he is more athletic then mj and the likes- but its just a tribute the how athletic he was that jackson would say that. dude was a freak (in many ways)

[Mathius]

I'm so proud of each and every one of you morons for living up to my expectations and debating Rodman's physical gifts when the point I was making is this:

Rodman was the most gifted rebounder and defender of his era for one simple reason. He worked harder at it than anyone else and put more mental focus into it than anyone else.

If he had devoted that kind of work ethic and mental focus into offense, he'd have given MJ a run for his money. But Rodman didn't give a damn about offense.

How funny is that moron who said that Rodman wasn't coordinated. :rolleyes:

Right. That's why he had such great body control on defense to guard anyone from Kevin Johnson on the weak side to Shaquille O'Neal on the strong side.

It's sad what this new generation of basketball fans find relevant. Basketball IQ's are falling into the toilet at an alarming rate. You don't see someone throw down a 360 or knock down a 3 pointer, and you assume they just can't do it, EVER.

Nevermind the fact that Rodman didn't WANT to play offense.

Mathius

[iamgine]

I actually agree with Mathius to a certain degree. Physically Lebron, Vince Carter and Rodman, those athletic freaks could have been better than Jordan. Jordan's athleticism wasn't so out of this world that no one can catch him. There were a lot of people more gifted physically.

Too bad they didn't have the other necessary tools, that is the mental and/or mind to make it happen.

[Kebab Stall]

I'm so proud of each and every one of you morons for living up to my expectations and debating Rodman's physical gifts when the point I was making is this:

Rodman was the most gifted rebounder and defender of his era for one simple reason. He worked harder at it than anyone else and put more mental focus into it than anyone else.

If he had devoted that kind of work ethic and mental focus into offense, he'd have given MJ a run for his money. But Rodman didn't give a damn about offense.

How funny is that moron who said that Rodman wasn't coordinated. :rolleyes:

Right. That's why he had such great body control on defense to guard anyone from Kevin Johnson on the weak side to Shaquille O'Neal on the strong side.

It's sad what this new generation of basketball fans find relevant. Basketball IQ's are falling into the toilet at an alarming rate. You don't see someone throw down a 360 or knock down a 3 pointer, and you assume they just can't do it, EVER.

Nevermind the fact that Rodman didn't WANT to play offense.

Mathius
I don't agree with this 100%.

We all know that the effort that Rodman put in to rebounding and defense is basically unmatched by anyone. However, if he had put that amount of effort in to offense, he might have been a very good offensive player. But, I don't think he would have been near the level of Michael Jordan.

I don't think size would be too much of an issure for Rodman, because he didn't let that effect him defensively in any way, so I don't think it would have effected him much offensively, but it certainly wouldn't have helped him, because he wasn't the fastest guy for his size.

His shot was awkward, but like I said in my previous post, that can be attributed to a stunt of growth in his offensive game due to playing on teams that didn't need another offensive player. A summer or two with a shooting coach could have fixed that and made it looke more presentable and much more effective.

Had he put the effort in to offense as he did on defense, he might have been a very good offensive player, but as good as Jordan? I don't think so.

[mlh1981]

Rodman was also too skinny to be able to play the post as a 4. What was he, 6'8 220? Sure, he would've gotten effort points and could've developed a jump shot with hard work, but I couldn't see him being able to back down a Karl Malone into the post.

[eliteballer]

Rodman was the most gifted rebounder and defender of his era for one simple reason. He worked harder at it than anyone else and put more mental focus into it than anyone else.

I wouldn't say he was a more gifted rebounder than Barkley. Imagine if Barkley just focused on rebounding like Rodman.


Rodman was also too skinny to be able to play the post as a 4.

He was pretty big in his later years.

You guys realize Phil might not just be talking about pure ability, right? He could be including things like enthusiasm, work ethic, teamwork, stamina, coachability(in terms of understanding the game). All things Rodman had in spades. Even then, he was fast in the open court, strong, and great at leaping.

[DieHardBullsFan]

interesting yahoo tidbid:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Phil-Jackson-Rodman-is-the-greatest-athlete-I-v?urn=nba,103886

the guy was a freak- since 1977-78 season, he has 4 of the top 5 seasons for rebounds per game: 18.7 (1st), 18.3 (2nd) , 17.3 (4th) , 16.8 (5th)- moses malone is 3rd with 17.6 and led the NBA in rebounding from 1991-92 to 1997-1998. hard to argue with phil there.

who is comparable today to rodman? reggie evans? dwight howard? tyson chandler? david lee?

and who do you think is the most athletic player phil has ever coached?

I agree with the Rodman statement......but I know Im going to get some heat for this but I think Lamar Odom has to be his second most "athletic" player hes coached.....

[bdreason]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius


So being atheletic makes you the GOAT?

GTFO.

Rodman was freakishly atheletic and probably the best rebounder of all time, but that doesn't mean he could have been a great scorer. Shooting the ball is different than playing defense, it requires coordination. I'm a great defensive player and rebounder as well (also good at attacking the rim), but I don't have great coordination, and hence will never be a GREAT shooter.

[bdreason]

I'm so proud of each and every one of you morons for living up to my expectations and debating Rodman's physical gifts when the point I was making is this:

Rodman was the most gifted rebounder and defender of his era for one simple reason. He worked harder at it than anyone else and put more mental focus into it than anyone else.

If he had devoted that kind of work ethic and mental focus into offense, he'd have given MJ a run for his money. But Rodman didn't give a damn about offense.

How funny is that moron who said that Rodman wasn't coordinated. :rolleyes:

Right. That's why he had such great body control on defense to guard anyone from Kevin Johnson on the weak side to Shaquille O'Neal on the strong side.

It's sad what this new generation of basketball fans find relevant. Basketball IQ's are falling into the toilet at an alarming rate. You don't see someone throw down a 360 or knock down a 3 pointer, and you assume they just can't do it, EVER.

Nevermind the fact that Rodman didn't WANT to play offense.

Mathius


I could have been the GOAT too, but I just didn't WANT to play defense or offense.

Comparing Rodman to Jordan is just retarded. Just stop.

[gotbacon23]

I could have been the GOAT too, but I just didn't WANT to play defense or offense.

Comparing Rodman to Jordan is just retarded. Just stop.

its also stupid to say that rodman would be as good as jordan on offense if he dedicated his work ethic to it because crap just doesn't work that way.

why wasn't kendall gill (i just picked a random player) the greatest offensive force ever? did he not work hard? was he not athletic enough?

kendall gill had very good athleticism and by all accounts was a good guy and probably worked his butt off to be the best basketball player he could be- hate to break it to you but the difference in athleticisim between a lot of nba players is minimal. they are ALL professional athletes, after all. and many of them (though not all) have a crazy good work ethic- but the combination of a great work ethic and athleticism does not make someone MJ. MJ was above and beyond just work ethic and athleticism, though he was elite there too.

[CelticForce1349]

:roll: :roll: :roll:



...and I certainly enjoy the fact that he signs his name to every post he makes. As if we didn't know who is posting under his screen name. Oh, and just so there is no confusion...



CelticForce1349

[Loki]

I actually agree with Mathius to a certain degree. Physically Lebron, Vince Carter and Rodman, those athletic freaks could have been better than Jordan. Jordan's athleticism wasn't so out of this world that no one can catch him. There were a lot of people more gifted physically.

Carter has a case. Rodman, however, is nowhere near as athletic as Jordan. Nowhere near. I'm not sure how anyone can even say this with a straight face. How the hell are you measuring athleticism? :oldlol:

And there were certainly not a "lot" of people more athletically gifted than Jordan. Maybe 6-7 guys all time if you include all positions, and those are all arguable.

[CelticForce1349]

I'm so proud of each and every one of you morons for living up to my expectations and debating Rodman's physical gifts when the point I was making is this:

Rodman was the most gifted rebounder and defender of his era for one simple reason. He worked harder at it than anyone else and put more mental focus into it than anyone else.

If he had devoted that kind of work ethic and mental focus into offense, he'd have given MJ a run for his money. But Rodman didn't give a damn about offense.

How funny is that moron who said that Rodman wasn't coordinated. :rolleyes:

Right. That's why he had such great body control on defense to guard anyone from Kevin Johnson on the weak side to Shaquille O'Neal on the strong side.

It's sad what this new generation of basketball fans find relevant. Basketball IQ's are falling into the toilet at an alarming rate. You don't see someone throw down a 360 or knock down a 3 pointer, and you assume they just can't do it, EVER.

Nevermind the fact that Rodman didn't WANT to play offense.

Mathius
\

Can anyone at ISH confirm that this was actually typed by Mathius?

Until I have proof I must assume this was a fraudulent post by someone by someone other than the intended author.

[97 bulls]

\

Can anyone at ISH confirm that this was actually typed by Mathius?

Until I have proof I must assume this was a fraudulent post by someone by someone other than the intended author.
i agree with mathius. ive seen rodman guarding greats that range anywhere from jordan and magic and to shaq and malone and olajuwan in spurts..

[97 bulls]

Carter has a case. Rodman, however, is nowhere near as athletic as Jordan. Nowhere near. I'm not sure how anyone can even say this with a straight face. How the hell are you measuring athleticism? :oldlol:

And there were certainly not a "lot" of people more athletically gifted than Jordan. Maybe 6-7 guys all time if you include all positions, and those are all arguable.
whats up loki. i think rodman is every bit as good an ATHLETE as jordan. but no where near the basketball player.

[Loki]

whats up loki. i think rodman is every bit as good an ATHLETE as jordan. but no where near the basketball player.

Again, how are you measuring athleticism? He didn't jump nearly as well, wasn't as fast/quick, and didn't have nearly the body control or coordination in general. Strength, sure.

Like I said, I entirely disagree. It's a position that can't really be defended.

[bigkingsfan]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/0SAJ7JN5VFAWT249NNR2.anigifdel/1b9d3fbf030a75618eb956aa0fa225ad

[Godfather]

interesting yahoo tidbid:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Phil-Jackson-Rodman-is-the-greatest-athlete-I-v?urn=nba,103886

the guy was a freak- since 1977-78 season, he has 4 of the top 5 seasons for rebounds per game: 18.7 (1st), 18.3 (2nd) , 17.3 (4th) , 16.8 (5th)- moses malone is 3rd with 17.6 and led the NBA in rebounding from 1991-92 to 1997-1998. hard to argue with phil there.

who is comparable today to rodman? reggie evans? dwight howard? tyson chandler? david lee?

and who do you think is the most athletic player phil has ever coached?
Shaq is... So what if Rodman averaged those rebounding numbers; tell Shaq to do nothing but rebound and he would have easily trumped those numbers...

[Da_Realist]

Again, how are you measuring athleticism? He didn't jump nearly as well, wasn't as fast/quick, and didn't have nearly the body control or coordination in general. Strength, sure.

Like I said, I entirely disagree. It's a position that can't really be defended.

I'm with Loki here. How are you guys measuring athleticism? MJ jumped higher, ran faster, had better body control and coordination.


Rodman could probably play a 48-minute game and play the 48th minute stronger than the first minute of the game

It looks like Phil is only using stamina to support his argument. Even if Rodman had more stamina, it wasn't by much. Isiah Thomas, Rodman's teammate, said of MJ, "He kept coming and coming and coming. And just when you think that he was wearing down physically and mentally, he would go to another level..." (here at 1:06 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0)). :confusedshrug:

[Jasper]

Mathius - is shining a parallel on mental toughness.
(We need to clarify our posts abit , so we all understand and that includes me)

Yep - Jordan , Pippen , and Rodman were excelent basketball players , but when I watched them and specially that 72 win season - it was the mental toughness that was on display of how to win.
IMO they put on a clinic the whole season.

How many guys do you know would ride a stationary bike for a ton of minutes while a game was in process , so he could stay loose , so when he was called in to play he would be the opponent to a board ?

Phil had the greatest team of NBA history - and he knows where the credit goes. :applause:

-----------

[DCL]

phil jackson is still hitting the bong.

[InspiredLebowski]

Jeff Foster's the closest comparison to Rodman.

But I'm a bit biased.

[Jasper]

Shaq is... So what if Rodman averaged those rebounding numbers; tell Shaq to do nothing but rebound and he would have easily trumped those numbers...
I was browsing the Suns roster - new article's on Tucker etc ...
and realized that Shaq is in his final contract year (correct me if I am wrong)
Wouldn't Porter just lov to tell Shaq board like no board man has done since Wilt ? :hammertime:

And Shaq would say ...

I'm just wondering where Shaq will end his career after this current contract is up .

[Younggrease]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius

spoken like someone who is out of touch with bball and skill development...

[Mathius]

So being atheletic makes you the GOAT?

GTFO.

Rodman was freakishly atheletic and probably the best rebounder of all time, but that doesn't mean he could have been a great scorer. Shooting the ball is different than playing defense, it requires coordination. I'm a great defensive player and rebounder as well (also good at attacking the rim), but I don't have great coordination, and hence will never be a GREAT shooter.

NO retard. Again, I keep talking about Rodman's work ethic and mentality and you retards keep bringing up physicality.

Rodman was a ****ing Adonis in the weight room, I'll give him that, but my point is, irregardless of the fact that he didn't WANT to play offense, Rodman had one of the greatest understandings of the game of basketball of any player in his era.

He knew where he needed to be, where the ball was going to go, etc. and used those gifts on defense, because he had a great understanding of plays, fundementals, etc.

You morons see him jumping around tiping a rebound and then wearing a dress on the weekend, and you ignore the fact that the guy plain KNEW the game of basketball better than 85% of the league, if not more.

Mathius

[Younggrease]

NO retard. Again, I keep talking about Rodman's work ethic and mentality and you retards keep bringing up physicality.

Rodman was a ****ing Adonis in the weight room, I'll give him that, but my point is, irregardless of the fact that he didn't WANT to play offense, Rodman had one of the greatest understandings of the game of basketball of any player in his era.

He knew where he needed to be, where the ball was going to go, etc. and used those gifts on defense, because he had a great understanding of plays, fundementals, etc.

You morons see him jumping around tiping a rebound and then wearing a dress on the weekend, and you ignore the fact that the guy plain KNEW the game of basketball better than 85% of the league, if not more.

Mathius

Why do you assume work ethic + athletism = automatic great skills...Sorry but if you spendt time around ball players you will see it doesnt work like that. Some people just have a knack for certain things and some just are bad at certain things.

[iamgine]

Carter has a case. Rodman, however, is nowhere near as athletic as Jordan. Nowhere near. I'm not sure how anyone can even say this with a straight face. How the hell are you measuring athleticism? :oldlol:

And there were certainly not a "lot" of people more athletically gifted than Jordan. Maybe 6-7 guys all time if you include all positions, and those are all arguable.
lol how does he get all those rebounds? He sure as hell not have a great basketball IQ. Jordan was very strong for his position, that helps him a lot but a lot of guys are more athletic than him. But you're Jordan hardcore fanatic so I understand.

[mjbulls23]

He sure as hell not have a great basketball IQ.
Rodman didn't have a great basketball IQ? :oldlol:

[Mathius]

Why do you assume work ethic + athletism = automatic great skills...Sorry but if you spendt time around ball players you will see it doesnt work like that. Some people just have a knack for certain things and some just are bad at certain things.

Why are you even in this thread? Aren't you in high school? Did you ever even SEE Rodman play?

First off, you're wrong. Rodman had an extremely high basketball IQ, great body control, great athleticism, and was probably a harder worker than 95% of the league. He was also extremely intelligent, and had was one of the greatest mental opponents to ever play the game.

Let me ask you about something else you probably never saw first hand since you're SOOO worldy. Do you know what Jimmy Johnson's drafting strategy was?

He used to collect as many draft choices as possible, and draft players who score high on intelligence tests, had good personalities, and were gifted athletically. It didn't matter what stats they put up in college, he wasn't interested in that. He was interested in the other 3, because that meant he could teach them.

He turned out more quality players in his coaching tenure, than a lot of guys ever turn out in their careers.

Because if someone has the basics, they can learn to do other things.

BTW, smart guy. Did you know that Rodman averaged 26 points per game in college?

Why don't you spend a little time watching a little basketball and learning a little bit about sports before you start running your god damn mouth at me?

Mathius

[catzhernandez]

http://members.westnet.com.au/flippy/books/images/badasiwannabe.jpg


Very enjoyable read. You really get a look into his mind.

[mlh1981]

He played some major mind games with Malone during the finals. He turned that guy into putty. I wonder if they hang onto Horace Grant instead of getting Rodman, if the finals end in the same result? He was so key for those Bulls teams. Phil Jackson knew how to coach a guy like that. Wasn't a micromanager. Do what you want in your free time, but show up and be ready to play.

[Mathius]

yeah I think you got me wrong...you say im in high school?? im a law student..

Ah, right. This is you: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101160

The broke a$$ college student. Still, doesn't matter. If you've ever seen Rodman play, I can almost guarantee you weren't much older than 10.


you say I havent played ball....I started at a D3 for 3 years and spent 2 tours playing ball overseas...say I havent watched ball and I have been playing and watching since I was 5...But let me guess you pretend to coach or something...I have done that too...

Nice rant, but I never said dick about you playing ball. It's irrelevant to the conversation. Learn to read.


And then dude goes off about football

So are addressing someone else now? Just clarifying. Before it was "you" now it's "dude". Work on your tenses there. It's helpful for communication. Don't teach you that in law school?


which is hardly analogous to bball...

I can't wait to hear why it's not analogous to basket ball. Are you saying that people with athleticism, intelligence, and a good attitude can learn to play football, but they can't learn to play basketball?


then he brings up that Rodman averaged 26 points a game against like D2 players...Horace Jenkings did the same thing and so did a bunch of other guys..He was just a class better then them as an athlete. Reggie Evans would have averaged 26 a game at 20 in D2 too.

The point had nothing to do with comparisons of level of competition. You argued that Rodman doesn't have the skills to score and can't be taught to score, but evidently he can score on someone because 26 points per game is quite a lot of points for someone who came to the NBA and didn't even want to shoot.


Basketball isnt like that...you cant just project and athlete to work hard and this just get skills...Its not like its easy to get to just get the basics. Rodman would have to change his whole jumpshot and its a hard thing to do...Plus he would have to develop some sort of handle and feel for the post....

And you're ignorant enough to believe that Rodman didn't already have those skills and just chose to not use them. It's not hard to change jump shot mechanics. That's why shooting coaches have jobs. That's why players improve their shooting percentage over the years, or become three point threats later in their careers. It's called working at it until it becomes habit.

What does playing in the post have to do with anything anyways? From a skills standpoint, it's much easier than playing the wing or god forbid, point guard.


But you seem to think that just because he is athletic and has a feel for the game he would be as good as MJ...What a tool...why dont you stop the internet tough guy routine, get a life, get some *****...and then stick to another sport because you obviously dont much about bball. And its even more obvious that you never played any ball at a high level...you have no understanding for how hard even average players work on their skills and how often it doesnt work out for them.

Yeah, and you're a disrespectful punk, but I don't let that get in the way of conversation.

There's a big damn difference between those players and Rodman. Those players all have flaws, or just plain aren't good to begin with. Rodman was a damn good basketball player who stopped working on his offensive game and chose to devote all his time to defense and rebounding.

I could sit here and list all the reasons why other players fail, but I don't have that kind of time.

Mathius

[Sir Charles]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius

Rodman was athletic but had no Offensive Skills. You can`t just Become Talented Over Night :no: . Some Coordinations are Natural and for Rodman. Rebounding, Playing D and Hustlce with his athletic gifts was natural but not Shotting, Passing, Creating, Post Game etc...:confusedshrug:

[Mathius]

Rodman was athletic but had no Offensive Skills. You can`t just Become Talented Over Night :no: . Some Coordinations are Natural and for Rodman. Rebounding, Playing D and Hustlce with his athletic gifts was natural but not Shotting, Passing, Creating, Post Game etc...:confusedshrug:
Well, the Charles Barkley troll says Rodman couldn't be a good offensive player, so that settles it I guess.

Mathius

[gts]

Rodman was athletic but had no Offensive Skills. You can`t just Become Talented Over Night :no: . Some Coordinations are Natural and for Rodman. Rebounding, Playing D and Hustlce with his athletic gifts was natural but not Shotting, Passing, Creating, Post Game etc...:confusedshrug: that's not true rodman did have offensive skills he actually had a nice little fadeaway jumper he used early in his career, you know he averaged 11.5ppg on 56% his second year in the league? but only 8 rebounds per game...

in the 89 season he was ranked 3rd in the league in offensive rating, same year he lead the league in FG%, not bad for a guy with no offensive skills eh?

he focused on his defense and rebounding as his career evolved knowing a top rebounder and defensive player will always have a starting spot on any roster, bruce bowen is another that has made a career by putting his offensive needs second...

[Sir Charles]

that's not true rodman did have offensive skills he actually had a nice little fadeaway jumper he used early in his career, you know he averaged 11.5ppg on 56% his second year in the league? but only 8 rebounds per game...

in the 89 season he was ranked 3rd in the league in offensive rating, same year he lead the league in FG%, not bad for a guy with no offensive skills eh?

he focused on his defense and rebounding as his career evolved knowing a top rebounder and defensive player will always have a starting spot on any roster, bruce bowen is another that has made a career by putting his offensive needs second...

Could Rodman average 20 PPG with a 50 plus FG% for his whole career? :no:
Was He An Offensive Threat to Other PFs? :no:
Was He Doubled and Tripled Teamed Off and On the Post? :no:
Could He become the Go to Go Guy Offensively and Carry a Team That Way? :no:

Don`t Get Me Wrong he had a nice Jumper, Was A Fast Dude that Would Catch Nice Passes on the Break or By Setting Him Up for an Easy Basket but he was not Talented Offensively but Defensively. And as the Years Went He Worked Hard Adding the Rebounding etc..

[jdiaby]

I gotta agree with Mathius on this one, isn't kind of funny that maybe the 2 greatest rebounders and defenders of their eras(Russell and Rodman) focus lead to their championships( in rodman the next 3 peat, in Russell the 11 chapionships). Horace grant was great, but he was no rodman( on Orlando Horace was that good though). I believe Jordan to be one of the greatest NBA players of all time, but to act like there isn't players that have better understanding of the games( Magic, Bird) and could have been better than Jordan is out right luDACRIS, ( jORDAN not Isa ).

[Loki]

lol how does he get all those rebounds? He sure as hell not have a great basketball IQ. Jordan was very strong for his position, that helps him a lot but a lot of guys are more athletic than him. But you're Jordan hardcore fanatic so I understand.

:oldlol:

Again, please define athleticism. Let's say Rodman's stronger -- okay, what else? And Jordan was very strong, mind you. Then Jordan sh!ts on Worm in speed/quickness, body control, coordination, leaping, dexterity. Just takes a big steaming dump on him. Rodman isn't even in Jordan's universe as an athlete. "A lot of guys" were more athletic than Jordan? Try arguably 5-7 players in history and you'll be closer.

Let me know when you have anything coherent to say.

[eliteballer]

I wouldn't bet against Rodman beating Jordan in a weightlifting or speed contest. He was also very coordinated for his size.

[Loki]

I wouldn't bet against Rodman beating Jordan in a weightlifting or speed contest. He was also very coordinated for his size.

Jordan could pretty handily outrun Rodman. Weightlifting probably not. And he didn't have elite coordination like MJ/Carter/Kobe.

[iamgine]

:oldlol:

Again, please define athleticism. Let's say Rodman's stronger -- okay, what else? And Jordan was very strong, mind you. Then Jordan sh!ts on Worm in speed/quickness, body control, coordination, leaping, dexterity. Just takes a big steaming dump on him. Rodman isn't even in Jordan's universe as an athlete. "A lot of guys" were more athletic than Jordan? Try arguably 5-7 players in history and you'll be closer.

Let me know when you have anything coherent to say.
:oldlol: all we need is look at old videos.

Let me know when you have better credentials than Phil Jackson to speak.

[Loki]

:oldlol: all we need is look at old videos.

Oh, is that all? :oldlol:

Funny how no one has ever mentioned Rodman when discussing the most athletic players in history prior to this comment by Jackson, huh? :oldlol:

I love how you won't define athleticism, by the way. If we're going by what we see with our eyes, Jordan (and Kobe, and Pippen, and Shaq of players PJax has coached) are all worlds more athletic than Rodman.

[Kblaze8855]

Then Jordan sh!ts on Worm in speed/quickness, body control, coordination, leaping, dexterity.

Im not sure he was just worlds beyond a prime Rodman in any of those. rodman was known as one of the best athletes in the NBA in his youth. And youth is a relative term. he came into the NBA at 25. He was past a persons usual physical prime before he was even a big minutes player. And even then...he was a beast. he could run with anyone on the break. Even when he was skinny he could hold his own in the post with legit bigmen and still guard Jordan or Drexler types. He could jump too. I doubt he had a 40 inch vertical but he had some springs. He had some of the most amazing blocks ever(like Charles Barkley...two non shot blockers who had fantastic blocks when they did get them).

Rodman peaked popularity wise in his mid to late 30s. He wasnt nearly the athlete he was when he was young by then. Rodman could have been in the 1981 draft. Hes like a month younger than Isiah Thomas. From what I saw of young Dennis I think his early 20s version would be considered a great athlete even today. Somewhere between Josh Smith and Kenyon Martin as an athlete though it wouldnt show since hed do little to display it as they do.

edit

You really never heard of Rodman being a great athlete? I remember an announcer saying he thought Dennis might be the most gifted player in the NBA in the late 80s. He meant physically. Around the time that everyone spoke on how he ran like a deer.....

[Heretik32]

Rodman didn't have a great basketball IQ? :oldlol:

Funny thing is... his basketball IQ made him stand out. That guy must've had clairvoyant abilities as to where rebounds went.

[iamgine]

Oh, is that all? :oldlol:

Funny how no one has ever mentioned Rodman when discussing the most athletic players in history prior to this comment by Jackson, huh? :oldlol:

I love how you won't define athleticism, by the way. If we're going by what we see with our eyes, Jordan (and Kobe, and Pippen, and Shaq of players PJax has coached) are all worlds more athletic than Rodman.
Who ever discuss that? The best athlete might be MJ but he was not the most athletic. Jordan was great but he wasn't a freak specimen like Rodman. Anyone can do what Jordan did. Jordan was an athletic player with skill, mental and minds above his peers. He might be the most skillful player ever. But no one can rebound like Rodman. Pure athleticism, Rodman wins.

And again, Let me know when you have better credentials than Phil Jackson to speak.

[Kblaze8855]

Rebounding is more instinct and desire than athletic ability. By his houston years Barkley was strong but not a top athlete in any other way...still got 13 rebounds a game.

[iamgine]

Funny thing is... his basketball IQ made him stand out. That guy must've had clairvoyant abilities as to where rebounds went.
You do know that basketball isn't all about rebounds and his basketball IQ was just average if not below. Not like Pippen, Bird or MJ who had great Bball IQ. While it's true that he had a knack for where rebounds went, he also used his freak athleticism to get the rebounds.

[Loki]

You really never heard of Rodman being a great athlete? I remember an announcer saying he thought Dennis might be the most gifted player in the NBA in the late 80s. He meant physically. Around the time that everyone spoke on how he ran like a deer.....

There's a difference between saying that someone is a great athlete and saying that he's a better overall athlete than 3 of the top 10 athletes who have ever played (MJ/Shaq/Kobe). I believe Rodman is a great athlete, no question. I don't believe he's on their level, however, much less above it.

As for your other points, well, I've seen Jordan outrun Rodman while dribbling on breaks, so I'm not sold that he's as fast as MJ. And even if he was equal in end-to-end speed, what about lateral quickness/acceleration/leaping/body control/overall coordination.

I just don't see it. When you think of the elite athletes in history, you don't think of Dennis Rodman, despite his physical versatility (which never really happened at the same time -- i.e., he generally didn't guard PF/C's and SG/SF's during the same years -- but is impressive nonetheless).

[Loki]

Who ever discuss that? The best athlete might be MJ but he was not the most athletic. Jordan was great but he wasn't a freak specimen like Rodman. Anyone can do what Jordan did. Jordan was an athletic player with skill, mental and minds above his peers. He might be the most skillful player ever. But no one can rebound like Rodman. Pure athleticism, Rodman wins.


:oldlol:

Holy sh!t, dude. :hammerhead: :roll:

[iamgine]

:oldlol:

Holy sh!t, dude. :hammerhead: :roll:
:oldlol:

must be the first time loki is wrong aboout MJ :roll:

[Kebab Stall]

lol how does he get all those rebounds? He sure as hell not have a great basketball IQ. Jordan was very strong for his position, that helps him a lot but a lot of guys are more athletic than him. But you're Jordan hardcore fanatic so I understand.
I'm sorry, but I just had to quote this so that I could bask in it's stupidity.

That is by far one of the most ignorant statements I have seen someone post on ISH. Rodman knew the game, he knew what to do on offense and what to do on defense, he knew where to be, what to do and where to go. Rodman's IQ for basketball is matched by very few players.

[Loki]

Yeah, Rodman definitely had a very good basketball IQ. No question there.

[Ethan22]

I'm sorry, but I just had to quote this so that I could bask in it's stupidity.

That is by far one of the most ignorant statements I have seen someone post on ISH. Rodman knew the game, he knew what to do on offense and what to do on defense, he knew where to be, what to do and where to go. Rodman's IQ for basketball is matched by very few players.

Exactly. He also had a nack for that ball, he wanted the rebound more than anybody else, Rodman was a f'n beast!

[iamgine]

I'm sorry, but I just had to quote this so that I could bask in it's stupidity.

That is by far one of the most ignorant statements I have seen someone post on ISH. Rodman knew the game, he knew what to do on offense and what to do on defense, he knew where to be, what to do and where to go. Rodman's IQ for basketball is matched by very few players.
great bball iq = Bird, MJ, Stockton, Pippen, Nash, many NBA coaches, etc

not Rodman, he had average bball IQ with freaky athleticism and a knack for rebounding. You basically just describe most NBA players.

[Kebab Stall]

great bball iq = Bird, MJ, Stockton, Pippen, Nash, many NBA coaches, etc

not Rodman, he had average bball IQ with freaky athleticism and a knack for rebounding. You basically just describe most NBA players.
Average basketball IQ, is an understatement if you ask me. Rodman was a genius when it came to playing basketball, he just knew the game. His rebounding was more the desire to go and get the ball over anything else, but to say that his basketball IQ was average.....I just think you're wrong.

[Heretik32]

Average basketball IQ, is an understatement if you ask me. Rodman was a genius when it came to playing basketball, he just knew the game. His rebounding was more the desire to go and get the ball over anything else, but to say that his basketball IQ was average.....I just think you're wrong.

Too bad I got to spread it round before being able to repp you again. That's exactly the formula: Rodman = high bball IQ + reckless desire for rebounds + being able to get into opponents' heads. No other player in the league has ever been able to match that combination.

[32jazz]

Oh, is that all? :oldlol:

Funny how no one has ever mentioned Rodman when discussing the most athletic players in history prior to this comment by Jackson, huh? :oldlol:

I love how you won't define athleticism, by the way. If we're going by what we see with our eyes, Jordan (and Kobe, and Pippen, and Shaq of players PJax has coached) are all worlds more athletic than Rodman.


Don't have the quote in writing ,but Chuck Daly did say that Rodman had "world class speed".


Like the guys who attacked Doc Rivers credibility it's ridiculous when guys on a message board feel as if they can casually dismiss the opinion of a nine time NBA Champion Coach.:rolleyes:

[iamgine]

Average basketball IQ, is an understatement if you ask me. Rodman was a genius when it came to playing basketball, he just knew the game. His rebounding was more the desire to go and get the ball over anything else, but to say that his basketball IQ was average.....I just think you're wrong.
If he's a genius at all, I'd say he's a genius at knowing his role on the court. He knew that he can only do one thing good and that's rebounding and defense so that's what he does. If you want to call that genius then we have very different definition of bball IQ. And mind you average NBA player has much higher bball IQ than common ballers so it's not really an insult to call his bball IQ average. It's just not in the class of MJ, bird, pippen and others.

[Kblaze8855]

There's a difference between saying that someone is a great athlete and saying that he's a better overall athlete than 3 of the top 10 athletes who have ever played (MJ/Shaq/Kobe). I believe Rodman is a great athlete, no question. I don't believe he's on their level, however, much less above it.

As for your other points, well, I've seen Jordan outrun Rodman while dribbling on breaks, so I'm not sold that he's as fast as MJ. And even if he was equal in end-to-end speed, what about lateral quickness/acceleration/leaping/body control/overall coordination.

I just don't see it. When you think of the elite athletes in history, you don't think of Dennis Rodman, despite his physical versatility (which never really happened at the same time -- i.e., he generally didn't guard PF/C's and SG/SF's during the same years -- but is impressive nonetheless).

Its true that Rodman doesnt come up when people think of the best athletes...but Jeff Trepagnier doesnt either. Nor does Marcus Haislip. MJ, Shaq, and Kobe will get more mentions because they are MJ Shaq and Kobe. Not to say they dont deserve them.....but greatness and star status will get some guys mentions beyond those of equal athletes who arent as good as players.


And.....im not convinced Kobe is top 10...I mean really....Jordan, Lebron, James white, Shaq, Drexler, Vince carter, Kemp, Wilt, David Thompson, nate robinson, pre injury Tmac, young Eddie Jones, Dwight Howard, and even guys like Larry Nance, and Gerald Wallace may be better or at least arguably so as pure athletes. Im not sure Kobe is a more athletic player than Andre Iguodala.....or Harold Minor(even aside from his dunks...that guy was quick as hell and built like a tank).

Think Kobe is stronger or a better leaper than Darvin Ham was? I dont think Kobe gets up like Baron Davis in his youth nor do I think hes faster. Steve Francis had more bounce than Kobe and was strong. Not as quick though. Is Kobe really THAT much more athletic than Chris webber in his youth? You think Kobe can go get a lob that say....Rodney Carney or Gerald Green cant? Is Kobe faster than Iverson in his youth? Have the Hops? Hes stronger...but I see no reason to call him more coordinated.

I dont think Kobe could out jump Brent Barry nor do I think hes got more body control. Clippers/Bulls Barry was just out of hand sometimes with the shots and passes hed pull out of his ass from impossible angles. Kobes stronger and quicker in the halfcourt....but im not saying Brent is a better athlete.

What im saying is that Kobe is a guy who has a looooooooooooooooooooooooong list of guys who are equal or better than him at something. He makes it up in other areas in most of those things....but as a total athlete I see no reason to rank him above Nate robinson who id call faster, stronger overall(partly due to build), and a far far better leaper. Nate is an NFL level corner athletic ability wise.

Kobe doesnt belong in a "Top 10 for sure" list. Kobe isnt Kobe because hes athletic. Hes Kobe because he works his ass off and combined natural talent with a great desire to be great. Athletically? Pure physical talent? Hes not much more than DerMarr Johnson plus a weight room.

[Kebab Stall]

If he's a genius at all, I'd say he's a genius at knowing his role on the court. He knew that he can only do one thing good and that's rebounding and defense so that's what he does. If you want to call that genius then we have very different definition of bball IQ. And mind you average NBA player has much higher bball IQ than common ballers so it's not really an insult to call his bball IQ average. It's just not in the class of MJ, bird, pippen and others.
I know his IQ isn't in the league of Bird and MJ, that's why I said that his IQ is unmatched by few. There is only a few guys that have a better IQ than Rodman, obviously MJ, Bird, Magic, et cetera are the few that are above Rodman.

Just because Rodman doesn't do everything on the court, doesn't mean he doesn't know what to do. He does his job, because that's what he wanted to do and not many people wanted to take the role of the guy who wanted to get dirty.

An example of this would be Rasheed Wallace. I read something not too long ago (it might have been on here) that said he knows every play from every position. But, does he play every play from every position? No, he just knows how to. He knows exactly where everybody should be and exactly what they should be doing. That constitutes a part of his basketball IQ. I'm sure Rodman was to something like that with the Pistons, Spurs and/or Bulls.

Also, Rodman claimed to watch tapes of his teammates shots, so that he knew roughly the paterns of their rebounds. Now, we all know that when a person shoots from the right side of the basket, the ball is more than likely going to rebound off to the left side of the basket, but do we know how high or how far? No, that is something you just have to assume when you go for a rebound. Rodman watched tapes of his teammate shooting, so that he would know how high the ball rebounded and how far out the ball rebounded, giving him a much easier time on the boards. This alone doesn't make Rodman a great basketball mind, but it sure as hell makes up a part of his basketball mind, which was great.

[Heretik32]

An example of this would be Rasheed Wallace. I read something not too long ago (it might have been on here) that said he knows every play from every position.

Surprised the heck out of me too when I read that. Apparently Sheed could tell you every movement for every player on every set play in Detroit's play book... and that was back when that play book had the size of the bible.

[Kebab Stall]

Surprised the heck out of me too when I read that. Apparently Sheed could tell you every movement for every player on every set play in Detroit's play book... and that was back when that play book had the size of the bible.
It is crazy how he knows that. But it just gives him more ammo to work with. I just wish that he would use it more.

[Emile]

Jordan is the best pure athlete Jackson's ever coached while Shaq is the most imposing force. Basically, it's a tossup between those two. Given Shaq's size though, you might as well give him the edge.

[iamgine]

I know his IQ isn't in the league of Bird and MJ, that's why I said that his IQ is unmatched by few. There is only a few guys that have a better IQ than Rodman, obviously MJ, Bird, Magic, et cetera are the few that are above Rodman.

Just because Rodman doesn't do everything on the court, doesn't mean he doesn't know what to do. He does his job, because that's what he wanted to do and not many people wanted to take the role of the guy who wanted to get dirty.

An example of this would be Rasheed Wallace. I read something not too long ago (it might have been on here) that said he knows every play from every position. But, does he play every play from every position? No, he just knows how to. He knows exactly where everybody should be and exactly what they should be doing. That constitutes a part of his basketball IQ. I'm sure Rodman was to something like that with the Pistons, Spurs and/or Bulls.

Also, Rodman claimed to watch tapes of his teammates shots, so that he knew roughly the paterns of their rebounds. Now, we all know that when a person shoots from the right side of the basket, the ball is more than likely going to rebound off to the left side of the basket, but do we know how high or how far? No, that is something you just have to assume when you go for a rebound. Rodman watched tapes of his teammate shooting, so that he would know how high the ball rebounded and how far out the ball rebounded, giving him a much easier time on the boards. This alone doesn't make Rodman a great basketball mind, but it sure as hell makes up a part of his basketball mind, which was great.
Like I said, an average NBA player already has great bball mind compared to common baller. What makes Rodman different (bball iq wise) than Bowen (who also studied his opponent), Sheed, Billups, Sasha (hell, he know his role too), and the rest? Only a few guys made it from average to great. Guys like those I listed, MJ, Bird, etc.

[EricForman]

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.




I do agree Rodman is an amazing athlete. (I believe he has a higher vertical than Jordan and Pip)

But there is more to being a bball player than just athletism. And it's silly of you to think Rodman could have surpassed Jordan as an offensive player just if he put in the effort. Jordan proved from 96 on his greatness wasn't based on athletism. It was 100% skill.

[Kebab Stall]

Like I said, an average NBA player already has great bball mind compared to common baller. What makes Rodman different (bball iq wise) than Bowen (who also studied his opponent), Sheed, Billups, Sasha (hell, he know his role too), and the rest? Only a few guys made it from average to great. Guys like those I listed, MJ, Bird, etc.
Yes, NBA players do have a very good to great knowledge of the game compared to your average baller, but Rodman had a better knowledge of the game than those guys. MJ, Bird, Magic, etc. had an even better knowledge.

There's a difference between, knowing your role and just flat out knowing the game of basketball. Rodman knew the game of basketball. To me, someone like Sasha V. only knows his role. Sure, he probably has a great IQ compared just anyone, but compared to someone like Rodman? He isn't that bright.

[iamgine]

Yes, NBA players do have a very good to great knowledge of the game compared to your average baller, but Rodman had a better knowledge of the game than those guys. MJ, Bird, Magic, etc. had an even better knowledge.

There's a difference between, knowing your role and just flat out knowing the game of basketball. Rodman knew the game of basketball. To me, someone like Sasha V. only knows his role. Sure, he probably has a great IQ compared just anyone, but compared to someone like Rodman? He isn't that bright.
nah he has none of the vision & knowledge the greats have. only on rebounds maybe, but that's more instinctive. certainly not on offense nor defense. He's a great defender due to his athleticism but he cannot coordinate the team defense. He had freaky athleticism and willingness to sacrifice, pretty deadly combination nonetheless.

[Kebab Stall]

nah he has none of the vision & knowledge the greats have. only on rebounds maybe, but that's more instinctive. certainly not on offense nor defense. He's a great defender due to his athleticism but he cannot coordinate the team defense. He had freaky athleticism and willingness to sacrifice, pretty deadly combination nonetheless.
Rodman's knowledge is matched by almost no one in today's NBA. Only guys such as MJ, Bird, Magic, etc. have better knowledge of the game. I can't think of anyone in today's NBA that ranks anywhere near Rodman in terms of knowledge of the game, Duncan is the only guy that comes to me straight away, other than that I can't think of many guys. Maybe Rasheed?

[gotbacon23]

I wouldn't bet against Rodman beating Jordan in a weightlifting or speed contest. He was also very coordinated for his size.

one thing i know about MJ:
i have game 1 of the 1992 nba finals on DVD and in the pre-game Ahmad Rashad says how he weight lifted with MJ hours before the game and MJ was benching 265 lbs. im sure he could push 300 on off-days. jordan was also one of the only players to actually lift before games. you ever try doing a full work out of lifting weights and then simply just shooting baskets? that is HARD!

[gotbacon23]

You do know that basketball isn't all about rebounds and his basketball IQ was just average if not below. Not like Pippen, Bird or MJ who had great Bball IQ. While it's true that he had a knack for where rebounds went, he also used his freak athleticism to get the rebounds.

for anyone saying dennis rodman did not have a great basketball IQ... that is one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard. dude couldn't score but he knew what he had to do in his role, knew how to get the ball, knew how to make the right pass, etc. dude was only as great as he was cause of his bball iq. he was also arguably the best player EVER at getting under people's skin. watch the 1990 eastern conference finals and see how he throws pippen's game off, the 1996 finals how he single handidly made frank brikowski explode, causing a huge distraction to the sonics, and see him against malone in 97 and 98. he had the great knowledge to know that one way to win was to get underneath the skin of opponents. why do you think larry bird and michael jordan trash talked so many people? to prove that they were better? no- it was obvious that they were. they did it to throw people off their game. it seems simple enough, but not a lot of people play those mental games with the same degree of success as mj, bird, rodman, and reggie miller too.

also, not in terms of his IQ- but Rodman was one of 3 players ever, in my opinion to really be effective in guarding magic johnson. dennis johnson totally threw him off in 1984, rodman played him very effectivley in 1988 and 1989, and the turning point after the game 1 loss in the 1991 finals by the bulls was putting pippen on magic starting in game 2. pippen harassed the crap ouf of magic in games 2 through 5- same as dj and dennis.

dennis may not be the best or the most athletic ever but he sure was no dummy. excellent basketball iq.

[Kebab Stall]

one thing i know about MJ:
i have game 1 of the 1992 nba finals on DVD and in the pre-game Ahmad Rashad says how he weight lifted with MJ hours before the game and MJ was benching 265 lbs. im sure he could push 300 on off-days. jordan was also one of the only players to actually lift before games. you ever try doing a full work out of lifting weights and then simply just shooting baskets? that is HARD!
I've tried it before and it feels wierd. When I tried it, the ball felt light, but heavy at the same time. When you go to shoot, you just have no juice in your arms and feels like your pushing up a rock.

[gotbacon23]

I've tried it before and it feels wierd. When I tried it, the ball felt light, but heavy at the same time. When you go to shoot, you just have no juice in your arms and feels like your pushing up a rock.

i am an airball machine from three point range after lifting weights. if you lift any significant weight it feels like you are shooting with a medicine ball.

[Kebab Stall]

i am an airball machine from three point range after lifting weights. if you lift any significant weight it feels like you are shooting with a medicine ball.
I airball my free throws after lifting. Hell, even getting a drink after lifting can feel like hard work.

[Loki]

I'm still dumbfounded as to how anyone can think that Rodman is a better athlete than guys like Jordan or Shaq. If that's true, then he should be able to do most of the things Jordan could do physically. He can't.

I mean, I've read in this topic that he's just as fast, can jump just as high if not higher, and has "great body control." If all that's true, then why couldn't Dennis do the dunk seen at the 2:54-2:58 mark here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwyqE22CSyM

...or hundreds of other such moves/plays. Could it be....oh, I don't know...because he wasn't as good an athlete? :confusedshrug: All you need for that dunk is leaping ability, speed (to cover the distance), and body control (to contort your body). If Dennis was as good or better than Jordan in all of those areas, it stands to reason that he would be able to do things like that. Not only could he not do them, but we can't even mentally conceive of him doing them. There's a reason for that.

[gotbacon23]

I'm still dumbfounded as to how anyone can think that Rodman is a better athlete than guys like Jordan or Shaq. If that's true, then he should be able to do most of the things Jordan could do physically. He can't.

I mean, I've read in this topic that he's just as fast, can jump just as high if not higher, and has "great body control." If all that's true, then why couldn't Dennis do the dunk seen at the 2:54-2:58 mark here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwyqE22CSyM

...or hundreds of other such moves/plays. Could it be....oh, I don't know...because he wasn't as good an athlete? :confusedshrug: All you need for that dunk is leaping ability, speed (to cover the distance), and body control (to contort your body). If Dennis was as good or better than Jordan in all of those areas, it stands to reason that he would be able to do things like that. Not only could he not do them, but we can't even mentally conceive of him doing them. There's a reason for that.

you are definitley right- jordan's amazing body control- especially in mid-air, shows his athleticism as being superior to rodmans. i just started the form to basically make a point that rodman is very underrated as an athlete, not the best athlete. i think jordan is a better one along with some other guys.

[Loki]

you are definitley right- jordan's amazing body control- especially in mid-air, shows his athleticism as being superior to rodmans. i just started the form to basically make a point that rodman is very underrated as an athlete, not the best athlete. i think jordan is a better one along with some other guys.

I know. I've already said that Rodman is a great athlete. But it's not just body control that sets Jordan apart. I doubt Rodman could even dunk it with two hands simply from that distance, but all he'd need to do it are Jordan's speed and vertical. And since I've heard here that Rodman is just as fast if not faster, and is just as good a leaper, it makes you wonder why he couldn't do so.

That's a rhetorical question, in case you didn't get it. ;)

[Mathius]

I do agree Rodman is an amazing athlete. (I believe he has a higher vertical than Jordan and Pip)

But there is more to being a bball player than just athletism. And it's silly of you to think Rodman could have surpassed Jordan as an offensive player just if he put in the effort. Jordan proved from 96 on his greatness wasn't based on athletism. It was 100% skill.


That's not true. That's not true at all. Lots of people have the same amount of skill as Jordan. Jordan dominated because he was so much more mentally focused than his opponents. He could turn it on just because someone pissed him off.

Rodman had that same intensity and that same mental focus. He focused it differently. Rodman could get into an opponents head like no one I've ever seen play the game (defensively).

Mathius

[97 bulls]

I'm still dumbfounded as to how anyone can think that Rodman is a better athlete than guys like Jordan or Shaq. If that's true, then he should be able to do most of the things Jordan could do physically. He can't.

I mean, I've read in this topic that he's just as fast, can jump just as high if not higher, and has "great body control." If all that's true, then why couldn't Dennis do the dunk seen at the 2:54-2:58 mark here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwyqE22CSyM

...or hundreds of other such moves/plays. Could it be....oh, I don't know...because he wasn't as good an athlete? :confusedshrug: All you need for that dunk is leaping ability, speed (to cover the distance), and body control (to contort your body). If Dennis was as good or better than Jordan in all of those areas, it stands to reason that he would be able to do things like that. Not only could he not do them, but we can't even mentally conceive of him doing them. There's a reason for that.
i dont think this is a fair example. for one thing, players like dr. J, jordan and connie hawkins had huge hands. second the dunks players are doing today own the dunks of the past. and im a history buff who loved the dunk contest of old. and i would not say that players today are more athletic than a jordan because they dunk better than him.

second, unless youve seen jordan race rodman or have 40 times i dont think you can say that he faster.

third, do you know how quick you have to be in order to out jump or continuously outjump an opponent that is probably 2-5 inches taller and is an athlete in their own right?

fourth, while i feel that jordan was a sensational athlete, i think rodman faired better guarding smaller guards than jordan guarding center. and rodman defened the best at all positions. which is a sign of another athletic endeavor.

[97 bulls]

let me point out something else. it seems to me that people are using jordans offense as a sign that he was a better athlete than rodman.

let me ask a question, what do charles barkley, shaq oneal, eddy curry, and kevin duckworth have in common? they were good offensive players and had or have a rep. for doggin it on defense. why? because they all were fat.

so please dont use offense as a basis for one being one of the greatest athletes.

not to mention. in football, your best athletes are cornerbacks (defense)
in baseball the best athletes are in the outfield and not the power hitters
are we making a connection here.

[Loki]

i dont think this is a fair example. for one thing, players like dr. J, jordan and connie hawkins had huge hands. second the dunks players are doing today own the dunks of the past. and im a history buff who loved the dunk contest of old. and i would not say that players today are more athletic than a jordan because they dunk better than him.

second, unless youve seen jordan race rodman or have 40 times i dont think you can say that he faster.

third, do you know how quick you have to be in order to out jump or continuously outjump an opponent that is probably 2-5 inches taller and is an athlete in their own right?

fourth, while i feel that jordan was a sensational athlete, i think rodman faired better guarding smaller guards than jordan guarding center. and rodman defened the best at all positions. which is a sign of another athletic endeavor.

This is all basically bullsh!t. Sorry.

Rodman isn't nearly the athlete Jordan was. It has nothing to do with hand size. If, as has been said in this topic, Rodman is as fast or faster, has as good or better a vertical leap, and elite body control, he should be able to do that Jordan dunk and many other plays of his. The fact that he not only didn't do them, but that we can't even concieve of him doing them is an indictment of this ridiculous stance that Rodman > Jordan as an athlete.

Like I said, Rodman couldn't even do a simple two-handed dunk (no contortion) from where Jordan did it. So basically, this is all nonsense.

[Loki]

let me point out something else. it seems to me that people are using jordans offense as a sign that he was a better athlete than rodman.

let me ask a question, what do charles barkley, shaq oneal, eddy curry, and kevin duckworth have in common? they were good offensive players and had or have a rep. for doggin it on defense. why? because they all were fat.

so please dont use offense as a basis for one being one of the greatest athletes.

not to mention. in football, your best athletes are cornerbacks (defense)
in baseball the best athletes are in the outfield and not the power hitters
are we making a connection here.

More bullsh!t. Just keep yapping and making no sense. :oldlol: It's not offense I'm judging him on, it's his (in)ability to make athletic plays on the level he should be able to if he were truly the cream of the crop.

[Kiddlovesnets]

I believe there must be a reason for Phil to say it that way...

[Loki]

I believe there must be a reason for Phil to say it that way...

Yeah, to avoid controversy and perhaps impart a message to his audience about tenacity and dedication, since Rodman's athleticism largely embodied that since he was a fitness freak. It's easier for someone to aspire to be a Rodman-level athlete than a Jordan-level athlete, because Jordan's gifts are largely innate.

[Godfather]

Yeah, to avoid controversy and perhaps impart a message to his audience about tenacity and dedication, since Rodman's athleticism largely embodied that since he was a fitness freak. It's easier for someone to aspire to be a Rodman-level athlete than a Jordan-level athlete, because Jordan's gifts are largely innate.

Or a Shaq-level athlete.

[Loki]

Or a Shaq-level athlete.

I personally believe that Rodman isn't even the 4th best athlete Jackson has ever coached (MJ/Shaq/Kobe/Pippen/Grant are all ahead of him imo). I'm just trying to make a point.

[Godfather]

I personally believe that Rodman isn't even the 4th best athlete Jackson has ever coached (MJ/Shaq/Kobe/Pippen/Grant are all ahead of him imo). I'm just trying to make a point.
Just a little off topic here, but who do you believe was a superior athlete MJ or Shaq?

And lol you said something nice about Kobe...

[Loki]

Just a little off topic here, but who do you believe was a superior athlete MJ or Shaq?


If you consider size part of athleticism, then Shaq.

And yeah, I think Kobe is (or at least was) more athletic than Rodman, but at the very least Rodman is not more athletic than MJ and Shaq.

[97 bulls]

This is all basically bullsh!t. Sorry.

Rodman isn't nearly the athlete Jordan was. It has nothing to do with hand size. If, as has been said in this topic, Rodman is as fast or faster, has as good or better a vertical leap, and elite body control, he should be able to do that Jordan dunk and many other plays of his. The fact that he not only didn't do them, but that we can't even concieve of him doing them is an indictment of this ridiculous stance that Rodman > Jordan as an athlete.

Like I said, Rodman couldn't even do a simple two-handed dunk (no contortion) from where Jordan did it. So basically, this is all nonsense.
the reason why most people cant glide from the ft line is not because of their hangtime, it because you must palm the ball in order to be able to tourque your body and still control it. not solely because of hangtime. and in order to be able to contort your body and still control the ball, you have to have big hands. you should know that.

[97 bulls]

More bullsh!t. Just keep yapping and making no sense. :oldlol: It's not offense I'm judging him on, it's his (in)ability to make athletic plays on the level he should be able to if he were truly the cream of the crop.

you say its not offense and yet i believe in every one of your posts you use either a dunk, an acrobatic move to the basket, or a dribble in order to try to prove your point. stop contradicting yourself rook.

[Godfather]

you say its not offense and yet i believe in every one of your posts you use either a dunk, an acrobatic move to the basket, or a dribble in order to try to prove your point. stop contradicting yourself rook.

lol @ you calling Loki a rook...You have just induced paragraphs of intelligent rebuttal.

[97 bulls]

This is all basically bullsh!t. Sorry.

Rodman isn't nearly the athlete Jordan was. It has nothing to do with hand size. If, as has been said in this topic, Rodman is as fast or faster, has as good or better a vertical leap, and elite body control, he should be able to do that Jordan dunk and many other plays of his. The fact that he not only didn't do them, but that we can't even concieve of him doing them is an indictment of this ridiculous stance that Rodman > Jordan as an athlete.

Like I said, Rodman couldn't even do a simple two-handed dunk (no contortion) from where Jordan did it. So basically, this is all nonsense.
first im not saying that rodan is a better athlete than jordan. but i really dont see a difference. jordan had all the physical tools to be a great basketball player. theres track and field athletes that cant do what jordan does on a basketball court are you gonna say jordan is a better athlete because of that? hell bo jackson is light years ahead of jordan as an athlete and he said he couldnt play basketball. your reasoning is assinine.

[97 bulls]

lol @ you calling Loki a rook...You have just induced paragraphs of intelligent rebuttal.
get of his nuts ill call anybody i want a rookie if they making rookie mistakes:pimp:

[Chalkmaze]

the reason why most people cant glide from the ft line is not because of their hangtime, it because you must palm the ball in order to be able to tourque your body and still control it.

Funniest line I've read all day. :roll:

[Loki]

the reason why most people cant glide from the ft line is not because of their hangtime, it because you must palm the ball in order to be able to tourque your body and still control it. not solely because of hangtime. and in order to be able to contort your body and still control the ball, you have to have big hands. you should know that.

I'm talking about a simple two-handed dunk from where Jordan took off from in the video I posted -- not even one where he contorts his body like Jordan did. You don't need to be able to palm the ball to do that. Rodman probably couldn't even do a one-handed dunk from that distance.



you say its not offense and yet i believe in every one of your posts you use either a dunk, an acrobatic move to the basket, or a dribble in order to try to prove your point. stop contradicting yourself rook.

Tell me something that displays athleticism, then. And elite athleticism. What, jumping quickly multiple times for a rebound? Sorry, but no. He didn't get off the ground any faster on his initial or second jumps than lots of other players. What he had was a nose for the ball and sheer desire and energy. Rodman also wasn't a guy who snatched rebounds high over trees very often, so I'm not sure where you got that from.


It's amazing that somebody can be this dense. Point blank: anyone who thinks that Rodman is an equal athlete to Jordan or Shaq (much less better) is deluding themselves. Show me Rodman catching an alley-oop with his entire hand above the square -- oh wait, that's "offense" too. :rolleyes:

[97 bulls]

Funniest line I've read all day. :roll:
let me rephrase it for people that need to be spoon fed. for those players that have the ability to jump that far you also need to be able to hold the ball in your hand. otherwise its not a dunk. theres plenty of players that can get there just not with the ball.

[Loki]

theres track and field athletes that cant do what jordan does on a basketball court are you gonna say jordan is a better athlete because of that?

More nonsense. Any professional long or high-jumper 6'3" or better can dunk from where Jordan did. Rodman can't. Any professional sprinter can outrun Jordan on the court; Rodman couldn't.

Keep throwing out non-sequiturs, though. It seems that's all you're good for.

[97 bulls]

I'm talking about a simple two-handed dunk from where Jordan took off from in the video I posted -- not even one where he contorts his body like Jordan did. You don't need to be able to palm the ball to do that. Rodman probably couldn't even do a one-handed dunk from that distance.



Tell me something that displays athleticism, then. And elite athleticism. What, jumping quickly multiple times for a rebound? Sorry, but no. He didn't get off the ground any faster on his initial or second jumps than lots of other players. What he had was a nose for the ball and sheer desire and energy. Rodman also wasn't a guy who snatched rebounds high over trees very often, so I'm not sure where you got that from.


It's amazing that somebody can be this dense. Point blank: anyone who thinks that Rodman is an equal athlete to Jordan or Shaq (much less better) is deluding themselves. Show me Rodman catching an alley-oop with his entire hand above the square -- oh wait, that's "offense" too. :rolleyes:
lol your right you just used another offensive play as your argument. (and people wonder why im calling you a rookie) just because a guy can dunk better doesnt mean he a better athlete.

let me ask you a question loki. who came first jordan or GOD. or maybe your an atheist. well you cant be an atheist because you worship jordan.

[97 bulls]

More nonsense. Any professional long or high-jumper 6'3" or better can dunk from where Jordan did. Rodman can't. Any professional sprinter can outrun Jordan on the court; Rodman couldn't.

Keep throwing out non-sequiturs, though. It seems that's all you're good for.
where did i say "dunk"? and once again please post jordans and rodmans 40 time cuz i cant find them or a race between the two

[Loki]

lol your right you just used another offensive play as your argument.

Yeah, an offensive play that takes absolutely no skill. If Rodman was an elite athlete, I'm sure that ONE TIME in a 13 year career he would have caught an alley-oop from way up. But he didn't. Funny how that works, huh.

B..b..but he jumped 4 times consecutively for a rebound! OMG GOAT ATHLETE !!!!!11one :rolleyes:

[Loki]

where did i say "dunk"?

You're just obtuse and obstinate. I'm done. Enjoy your delusions.

[RainierBeachPoet]

directly the interview, pj defines "athleticism" as:

“He could probably play a 48-minute game and play the 48th minute stronger than the first minute of the game,” Jackson told the crowd at UND. “He was that terrific an athlete.”

so, could this be interpreted as the ability to play stronger at the end of a game when everyone else is spent?

i was always amazed at rodman's ability to stop the best players and throw them off their game. he was the one guy that gave magic fits because of his combined length, quickness and strength. dennis was an extremely heady player on the court

[97 bulls]

More nonsense. Any professional long or high-jumper 6'3" or better can dunk from where Jordan did. Rodman can't. Any professional sprinter can outrun Jordan on the court; Rodman couldn't.

Keep throwing out non-sequiturs, though. It seems that's all you're good for.
and i tried to find jordans and rodmans 40 times and or a race and i cant find either can you?

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=RainierBeachPoet]directly the interview, pj defines "athleticism" as:

[I]

[Mathius]

from the context of the interview, it seems like pj defines "athleticism" as:

“He could probably play a 48-minute game and play the 48th minute stronger than the first minute of the game,” Jackson told the crowd at UND. “He was that terrific an athlete.”

so, could this be interpreted as the ability to play stronger at the end of a game when everyone else is spent?

i was always amazed at rodman's ability to stop the best players and throw them off their game. he was the one guy that gave magic fits because of his combined length, quickness and strength. dennis was an extremely heady player on the court

<shrug> It's also possible he simply meant endurance. Rodman seemed to be able to play at a high level for an unlimited amount of time. Of course Jordan was never one to take a play off either.

There's never going to be a clear cut answer to the question, no matter what some people on here believe.

People like Loki should be respected for the amount of statistical and historical knowledge of a player they have managed to attain, yet ridiculed for their narrow-minded inability to see the faults in a player, or admit that their is a possibility that someone could have been better than them given different circumstances.

In his own way he's as bad as the Kobe groupies on this site, he's just more knowledgeable about his chosen icon.

In short, he's bias, and for that single reason, I have completely dismissed and refused to reply to any and all comments he's made.

I happen to respect both Rodman, AND Jordan, and both players equally amazed me for different reasons. If Jordan had focused entirely on rebounding and defense, I believe he could have given Rodman a run for his money.

Both players were among the top athletes of their era or any era, both players are among the most mentally focused individuals to ever play the game. Both have a great understanding of the game from both the offensive and defensive standpoints.

Rodman will forever be underrated because he chose the tougher, less respected path.

However, to fail to acknowledge these things in either player just makes this a sad, sad, discussion.

Mathius

[Loki]

directly the interview, pj defines "athleticism" as:

“He could probably play a 48-minute game and play the 48th minute stronger than the first minute of the game,” Jackson told the crowd at UND. “He was that terrific an athlete.”

so, could this be interpreted as the ability to play stronger at the end of a game when everyone else is spent?

i was always amazed at rodman's ability to stop the best players and throw them off their game. he was the one guy that gave magic fits because of his combined length, quickness and strength. dennis was an extremely heady player on the court

Yeah, he's talking about stamina. I could almost believe that (though Jordan had more stamina than him imo when you consider everything he did for the team -- think late 80's/early 90's -- Rodman was elite in that respect). But you now have people trying to act like Rodman is an elite run/jump athlete, which he isn't.


and i tried to find jordans and rodmans 40 times and or a race and i cant find either can you?

Jordan ran a 4.3 second 40 at UNC in his sophomore year, and also did so on some celebrity athlete game show in the late 80's/early 90's where he raced with Deion Sanders. The UNC time is mentioned here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/flashbacks/jordan/831128/

More than that, however, it's simply something you can see on the court. You can actually time it, too.

[Loki]

or admit that their is a possibility that someone could have been better than them given different circumstances.


I'd have no trouble admitting it if it were at all plausible. Rodman simply would have never been a dominant offensive player. Could he have been a 15-17 ppg/50% guy? Possibly. 32 ppg/50%? No.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, he's talking about stamina. I could almost believe that (though Jordan had more stamina than him imo when you consider everything he did for the team -- think late 80's/early 90's -- Rodman was elite in that respect). But you now have people trying to act like Rodman is an elite run/jump athlete, which he isn't.



Jordan ran a 4.3 second 40 at UNC in his sophomore year, and also did so on some celebrity athlete game show in the late 80's/early 90's where he raced with Deion Sanders. The UNC time is mentioned here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/flashbacks/jordan/831128/

More than that, however, it's simply something you can see on the court. You can actually time it, too.
thats fast and i remember the sanders race and sanders who i believe ran consistant 4.3s smoked him like a philly blunt on a friday night.

[Loki]

thats fast and i remember the sanders race and sanders who i believe ran consistant 4.3s smoked him like a philly blunt on a friday night.

Well, that's what he was timed at on the show. Maybe you were watching a different show? :oldlol: By the way, no one ever said Sanders isn't as fast as Jordan, but Rodman sure wasn't.

[97 bulls]

Well, that's what he was timed at on the show. Maybe you were watching a different show? :oldlol:
or maybe there wasnt a show to begin with. hmmm. but are you now trying to say that jordan is as fast as sanders? and to be honest in that particular race he may have run a 4.3 but i really dont think he could run consistant 4.3s maybe a consistant 4.4 or 4.5 at the fastest. but i looked it up and sanders fastest time is 4.07.

[97 bulls]

Well, that's what he was timed at on the show. Maybe you were watching a different show? :oldlol: By the way, no one ever said Sanders isn't as fast as Jordan, but Rodman sure wasn't.
neither jordan or rodman is as fast as sanders. and i just dont think that a young rodman and jordan is that much different atletically.

[Loki]

or maybe there wasnt a show to begin with. hmmm.

Uhh, sure -- a show that I and millions of others saw. Okay.

[97 bulls]

Uhh, sure -- a show that I and millions of others saw. Okay.
who won the race? and by how much? what was the name of the show? lol

[97 bulls]

maybe he was on american gladiators.

[Loki]

who won the race? and by how much? what was the name of the show? lol

Wait, I thought you said you saw Sanders smoke him like a blunt. Yeah, it's clear what I'm dealing with here. Toodles.

[97 bulls]

Wait, I thought you said you saw Sanders smoke him like a blunt. Yeah, it's clear what I'm dealing with here. Toodles.
i was joking, we all know there is no show.

[Loki]

i was joking, we all know there is no show.

Whatever you say, buddy. :oldlol:

[imlmf]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius

damn! you ARE a moron

[RainierBeachPoet]

I happen to respect both Rodman, AND Jordan, and both players equally amazed me for different reasons. If Jordan had focused entirely on rebounding and defense, I believe he could have given Rodman a run for his money.

Both players were among the top athletes of their era or any era, both players are among the most mentally focused individuals to ever play the game. Both have a great understanding of the game from both the offensive and defensive standpoints.

Rodman will forever be underrated because he chose the tougher, less respected path.

However, to fail to acknowledge these things in either player just makes this a sad, sad, discussion.

Mathius

discussions here will generally be limited just because most of the post-ers here had never seen rodman. eventhough he became the rebounding beast in the mid 90s, i always thought his prime was with the pistons before his personal issues came into their prime

unfortunately, his off the court antics will also cast a shadow on his nba career. it is these perceptions that affect his standing in all time lists too. the sports careers of oj simpson and pete rose also will never be the same either

[Mathius]

discussions here will generally be limited just because most of the post-ers here had never seen rodman. eventhough he became the rebounding beast in the mid 90s, i always thought his prime was with the pistons before his personal issues came into their prime

unfortunately, his off the court antics will also cast a shadow on his nba career. it is these perceptions that affect his standing in all time lists too. the sports careers of oj simpson and pete rose also will never be the same either

Let me ask you something. Do you truly believe Rodman was as bad as they made him out to be? Obviously he was an attention whore, still is... That hasn't changed.

But I'm thinking back on some of the things he did, and I'm thinking... today would it be such a big deal?

Remember when the guy made headlines, because he took his shoes off on the sideline and sat down on the baseline? Today I don't think players are even allowed down in that area of the court anymore, and the dress code certainly makes taking your shoes off a no-no, but I thought it was way overblown at the time that it happened.

Of course he's known for the dresses, but that's all off court. And the hair, which today isn't a big deal. But perhaps the biggest issue, also off court was when he was found in his truck with a shotgun ready to kill himself after the Pistons got broken up and Daley was removed as head coach. Is it too unfathomable that in an era where psychology wasn't main stream like it is today, that Rodman who IIRC never knew his father had abandonment issues when his 'family'(the Pistons) was broken up and his 'father' (Daley) was taken away?

Anyways, it's a shame that this generation of kids doesn't know just how good Rodman really was. The fact that they compare him to Ben Wallace is an insult if you ask me.

Mathius

[72-10]

Since this keeps getting bumped I guess I'll venture a comment. Rodman spent most of his time in the weight room. He was a rock and pound for pound the greatest rebounder ever but he was not the world's greatest athlete.

He does not have Jordan's vertical, Jordan's lateral, Jordan's speed, Jordan's quickness, Jordan's coordination, Jordan's agility with the ball, etc. Furthermore rebounding requires absurd amounts of energy, but so does handling the ball for most of an NBA game. Rodman never had to worry about handling the ball whereas Jordan did. I'd bet that twice the calories are burned up with the ball than without it. And there is nothing that requires as much effort as driving. Rodman did not have Jordan's endurance.

Jordan would beat Rodman in the high jump, long jump, 100 m and the mile.

[RainierBeachPoet]

Let me ask you something. Do you truly believe Rodman was as bad as they made him out to be? Obviously he was an attention whore, still is... That hasn't changed.

But I'm thinking back on some of the things he did, and I'm thinking... today would it be such a big deal?

Remember when the guy made headlines, because he took his shoes off on the sideline and sat down on the baseline? Today I don't think players are even allowed down in that area of the court anymore, and the dress code certainly makes taking your shoes off a no-no, but I thought it was way overblown at the time that it happened.

Of course he's known for the dresses, but that's all off court. And the hair, which today isn't a big deal. But perhaps the biggest issue, also off court was when he was found in his truck with a shotgun ready to kill himself after the Pistons got broken up and Daley was removed as head coach. Is it too unfathomable that in an era where psychology wasn't main stream like it is today, that Rodman who IIRC never knew his father had abandonment issues when his 'family'(the Pistons) was broken up and his 'father' (Daley) was taken away?

Anyways, it's a shame that this generation of kids doesn't know just how good Rodman really was. The fact that they compare him to Ben Wallace is an insult if you ask me.

Mathius

seems to me that rodman just kept spiraling downward and he became a parody of himself. there must have been a part of hiim that didnt mind being the center of (negative) attention

his reputation preceded him and he had a huge target on his back and i believe received unfair treatment at times by the league who wanted that squeeky clean image from its players

many of rodmans incidents were overblown by the league imo. i remember watching rodman when he played for the lakers. rodman got called for a foul which he didnt think he did. he just stared at the ref; didnt say a word (i think the ref was ron garretson). and garretson gave him a technical foul. it was the worse tech i had ever seen

as good as ben wallace was, he doesnt hold a candle to rodman

[Real Men Wear Green]

So, uh, ignoring all of the Mathius ****, it was good to see the Piston part of that Rodman video. I had forgotten what young Worm was like.

[guy]

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.



Sorry man, but that statement is flat out wrong. Michael Jordan being as good as he was on the offensive end had to have required some natural skill, meaning even if he didn't put any work into it, he would've still had some skills. On the other hand, Dennis Rodman had absolutely none of that. If he did he would've at least been able to score like someone like Charles Oakley or Bruce Bowen but he was an absolutely horrible scorer.

[Vendetta]

The three greatest athletes Phil has ever coached are Jordan, Pippen, and Kobe. Nobody else is even close.

You're kidding, right? What about Shaq?

Shaq was so much stronger than all of these guys with every part of his body yet he was arguably quicker(not faster with running though) and could jump damn near as high despite being a hell of a lot heavier.

[Real Men Wear Green]

For being as agile as he was while still being that big and that strong, Shaq rates higher than Bryant and maybe Pippen, but no way was he as quick as those guys were.

[Vendetta]

For being as agile as he was while still being that big and that strong, Shaq rates higher than Bryant and maybe Pippen, but no way was he as quick as those guys were.

His spin move was quicker than anything Bryant could ever hope to pull off.

[jbot]

well, he said greatest "athlete" and not "ballplayer" so maybe he's right.

[schyza]

I swear I wonder sometimes if people even read the links in these threads or maybe there just too stupid to know there

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius
:confusedshrug: :oldlol:
Relax man.

[Real Men Wear Green]

His spin move was quicker than anything Bryant could ever hope to pull off.
When he exploded to the rim, no one could do anything about it. But do you really think he could keep up with any of those guys on the perimeter? Explosiveness isn't quite the same thing as quickness and agility.

Too bad for people who overrate Shaq's raw athletic ability, strength has nothing to do with athleticism..


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