Prime Kevin Johnson vs Current Chris Paul.

[Scott Pippen]

Who was better in prime based on individual ability? NOT who had better season, but who was better guard? Would old PG's like KJ, Payton, Stockton, and Isiah win MVP in today's guard friendly NBA? I believe so.:applause:

[Kiddlovesnets]

Chris Paul is already the Fifth best PG of all time while Kevin Johnson is at best somewhere between top 8-10.

[momo]

I cant say who is better but I will say KJ was fantastic. As a laker fan, he was one of the few guards I feared seeing... and could not wait to see.

[highwhey]

Chris Paul is already the Fifth best PG of all time while Kevin Johnson is at best somewhere between top 8-10.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

wow, can you please be any more of an idiot? your threads, your posts all display how little you really know. :rolleyes:

90% of ISH will say CP3 since they never got to see KJ play live(youtube doesn't count). plus, cp3 is already more popular than kj, not better but certainly more popular.

[Heretik32]

Chris Paul is already the Fifth best PG of all time

Cause you said so or what?

Give me one more year to prove Paul's incredible production last year wasn't a fluke, then I'll have him over prime KJ.

[Kiddlovesnets]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

wow, can you please be any more of an idiot? your threads, your posts all display how little you really know. :rolleyes:

Here's my list of Top 10 PGs of all time:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Bob Cousy
5. Chris Paul
6. Walt frazier
7. John Stockton
8. Kevin Johnson
9. Gary Payton
10. Jason Kidd

CP3 is therefore apparently better than KJ.

[Heretik32]

Here's my list of Top 10 PGs of all time:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Bob Cousy
5. Chris Paul
6. Walt frazier
7. Jerry Stockton
8. Gary Payton
9. Kevin Johnson
10. Jason Kidd

CP3 is therefore apparently better than KJ.

Ah, Oscar Robertson. Figures you got him in there. Great stats and all.

Oh, and you even included Jerry Stockton, John's secret love child.

[highwhey]

Here's my list of Top 10 PGs of all time:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Bob Cousy
5. Chris Paul
6. Walt frazier
7. Jerry Stockton
8. Kevin Johnson
9. Gary Payton
10. Jason Kidd

CP3 is therefore apparently better than KJ.

Yes, because it's you list. :hammerhead:

[Collie]

I refuse to accept that current Paul is greater than Walt Frazier, one of the best 2-way players of all time.

[Heretik32]

I refuse to accept that current Paul is better than Walt Frazier, one of the best 2-way players of all time.

Walt was the man who broke the Pearl. The only way Black Jesus was able to get his title was joining Frazier on the Knicks, and man, what a pair that was. So I fully agree with you here.

[72-10]

What CP3 did last season tops anything KJ did, but of course at the same time you'd have to be ignorant to place Paul on a list of greatness when he has had one great season under his belt.:hammertime:

[Showtime]

Chris Paul is already the Fifth best PG of all time while Kevin Johnson is at best somewhere between top 8-10.
Is this a joke? He's had one great season, which happened to be the best since...Tim Hardaway statistically. His rookie year was great for a rookie, his second year his team was mired by injuries, and his third year was great. There is certainly no way he's vaulted into the #5 spot based on the past 3 seasons.

[72-10]

Oh, and you even included Jerry Stockton, John's secret love child.
:lol Jerry Stockton

[sick_brah07]

who the hell is jerry stockton?

[Heretik32]

who the hell is jerry stockton?

http://static.bakersfield.com/smedia/2008/05/05/15/88-victorysigns_cw.standalone.prod_affiliate.25.jpg

The guy on the right, according to Google Pictures. Doesn't look like much of a baller, but seems to be one hell of a point guard. Better than Gary Payton, people say. Dig the Hot Rod memorial haircut, though.

[darkofan]

I cant say who is better but I will say KJ was fantastic. As a laker fan, he was one of the few guards I feared seeing... and could not wait to see.
Agree.

I didn't see him live, but I'm not sure I would put CP over him.

He was taller, stronger and quicker than CP.

CP has better handles, better range and is a better passer.

We'll have to wait for a couple more season to be the judges of that.

[mrhoopfan]

KJ averaged 20 and 10 three seasons in a row...also had the sick stat line of 39 points and 20 assists in a game against Nugs before:rockon:

[Rekindled]

anyone who thinks that CP3 is better than KJ obvoiusly just started watching basketball last year.

[stewen12]

Chris Paul is a great player now, BUT he hasnt dont enough to be ranked all time

[Collie]

I can accept that Paul had a greater single season than any of KJ's, but I still think he hasn't done enough to be considered "greater".

[LJJ]

SMH @ Jerry Stockton. :oldlol:

[AppleNader]

Here's my list of Top 10 PGs of all time:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Bob Cousy
5. Chris Paul
6. Walt frazier
7. Jerry Stockton
8. Kevin Johnson
9. Gary Payton
10. Jason Kidd

CP3 is therefore apparently better than KJ.

retard:roll: :roll:

[Kiddlovesnets]

Sorry it's gotta be John Stockton...
:oldlol:

[Godfather]

Sorry it's gotta be John Stockton...
:oldlol:

You are the kind of trash that absolutely degrades the quality of ISH...why the **** have you not been banned yet?

[kingpala]

KJ in a heartbeat. Are you serious? We can have this argument again after 3 seasons, when we can see what Paul has accomplished.

[GOBB]

Where is Glove_20 to spam GMAT's email account with this thread link? lol

"GMAT!!! Its gametime. *insert link*"

"GMAT!!! Where are you? You there? *insert link* 25 replies so far. They have no clue!!!"

"GMAT!!! You read my last 2 msgs, I checked. Says you read them. Why would they lie to me? You better have a damn good excuse why you're ignoring me. Answer me!"

"GMAT!!! Its Glove_20 again, sorry for the last email. I got besides myself. I APOLOGIZE. Do you accept, yes_ no_ maybe_ CHECK ONE. Please."

"GMAT!!! Glove_20 again, maybe you arent getting these. But here is the link *insert link*"

[iggy>]

pauls defense>

[kingpala]

pauls defense>

Are you serious? Paul is an average defender at best. He gambles way too much on D, and you saw that in the Olympics.

[Heretik32]

Are you serious? Paul is an average defender at best. He gambles way too much on D, and you saw that in the Olympics.

Gambling on D is great for stats cause it's either a steal or it doesn't show up on the sheet. Well, it might result in two easy points for the opponent or an embarrassing poster for your teammates, but who cares really as long as it gets you on the second d-team.

[steve]

anyone who thinks that CP3 is better than KJ obvoiusly just started watching basketball last year.
Or has perspective and the ability to put performances in context of the moments they occurred in.


Are you serious? Paul is an average defender at best. He gambles way too much on D, and you saw that in the Olympics.
This is a pretty big misnomer. Paul gets a number of his steals through on the ball defense, which relies on a fairly low to moderate amount of gambling. And if you bring up the Olympics, every single wing defender on the US was jumping passing lanes when they were defending a player off the ball, it was one of the (if not the single) primary concern of their defense strategy.

[The Italian]

Where is Glove_20 to spam GMAT's email account with this thread link? lol

"GMAT!!! Its gametime. *insert link*"

"GMAT!!! Where are you? You there? *insert link* 25 replies so far. They have no clue!!!"

"GMAT!!! You read my last 2 msgs, I checked. Says you read them. Why would they lie to me? You better have a damn good excuse why you're ignoring me. Answer me!"

"GMAT!!! Its Glove_20 again, sorry for the last email. I got besides myself. I APOLOGIZE. Do you accept, yes_ no_ maybe_ CHECK ONE. Please."

"GMAT!!! Glove_20 again, maybe you arent getting these. But here is the link *insert link*"
:roll:

Lets wait until Paul has been in the league for more then 4 seasons before he starts getting compared to Kevin Johnson or even mentioned among the All-Time greats.


Jerry Stockton

:roll:

What an idiot.

[Heretik32]

Rather nice read on Chris Paul's defense here:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-32-199/When-Chris-Paul-Plays-Defense.html

Too long to post it here, but it mentions that while Paul tries hard on defense and has his quick hands going for him, his size and average arm length sometimes get him into trouble fighting around picks and coming back from the double or help defense.

Well, at least the guy's trying. Deron's got the size but at times doesn't give a frozen hot dog about defense, unfortunately.

[big tuna]

this thread brings back some really good memories of kj and his playoff heroics. 23/12/4 in his first postseason and basically 20/10 for his career. it blew my mind how a point guard could be so athletic and still make such great decisions running the team (a pretty stark contrast to magic & stockton at the time), plus carry the offensive load for most games

for me, the most impressive thing about kj was the fact that he did all this while shooting almost 50% for his career. unheard of for a pg nowadays, scoring the way he did. prime kj by a mile at this point

[JohnRuck]

Are you serious? Paul is an average defender at best. He gambles way too much on D, and you saw that in the Olympics.

are YOU serious????

average defenders do not get put on the all NBA 2nd team for defense

nor does an average defender lead the entire national basketball association in steals

[StroShow4]

nor does an average defender lead the entire national basketball association in steals

allen iverson. crappy defender, led the league in steals a couple times.

[GOBB]

AI is far from a crappy defender He's another word worst. lol I can give him 25

[Richie2k6]

Where is Glove_20 to spam GMAT's email account with this thread link? lol

"GMAT!!! Its gametime. *insert link*"

"GMAT!!! Where are you? You there? *insert link* 25 replies so far. They have no clue!!!"

"GMAT!!! You read my last 2 msgs, I checked. Says you read them. Why would they lie to me? You better have a damn good excuse why you're ignoring me. Answer me!"

"GMAT!!! Its Glove_20 again, sorry for the last email. I got besides myself. I APOLOGIZE. Do you accept, yes_ no_ maybe_ CHECK ONE. Please."

"GMAT!!! Glove_20 again, maybe you arent getting these. But here is the link *insert link*"
:roll:

I will say this though - KJ has gotten overrated on ISH. People give him the respect he deserves for being underrated by the general media, but sometimes people go too far. He was a great, great player. Some people make it seem like he's arguably the GOAT.

[72-10]

Paul is a better defender than Iverson, let's make that clear.

[JustSaying]

anyone who thinks that CP3 is better than KJ obvoiusly just started watching basketball last year.
+1.

CP3 may very well end-up being the better player... but he ain't there yet.

[Mateo]

No, Paul is the best (right now) since prime Magic Johnson. /thread

[T-Low]

Ah, Oscar Robertson. Figures you got him in there. Great stats and all.

Oh, and you even included Jerry Stockton, John's secret love child.

Don't feed the child...

[KINGK]

Chris Paul just had the highest PER for any PG ever. Respect the man.

[highwhey]

Chris Paul just had the highest PER for any PG ever. Respect the man.
What a lame argument...

Amare has a higher PER than Duncan, therefore, he's better than Duncan.

[eliteballer]

Right now I have to go with KJ. Bigger, better defender(dude checked JORDAN), more athletic.

[steve]

I think Kevin Johnson has now officially become the Bill Brasky of ISH.

[Jailblazers7]

AI is far from a crappy defender He's another word worst. lol I can give him 25

If he were forced to play D he would be at worst an above average defender. Seems like people forget he was a 2-time Big East DPOY at Georgetown.

[Younggrease]

Right now I have to go with KJ. Bigger, better defender(dude checked JORDAN), more athletic.

I dont even like CP3 but currently he is better then KJ ever was...give him that Suns squad and they beat Jordan

[L.Kizzle]

Chris Paul hasn't had a better career than Terry Porter (yet) how is he top 5 all time.

KJ all the way.

[72-10]

If he were forced to play D he would be at worst an above average defender. Seems like people forget he was a 2-time Big East DPOY at Georgetown.

What is the point of that comment? To demonstrate that he has the ability?:confusedshrug: In reality, he does not defend well, therefore he is nothing more than an average defender.

[ShamRockStar]

KJs was so explosive, he would do a crossover and be 2 steps by his man like that, he could blow by anyone 1 on 1, that and his finishing ability are what set him apart from CP3 IMO.

Kevin Johnson is one of only four players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists per game in three different seasons. Johnson is one of four players to have averaged at least 15.0 points and 10.0 assists per game over the course of a season while shooting at least .500 from the field. Johnson is one of only two players (the other is Magic Johnson) to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists per game over the course of a season while shooting at least .500 from the field.

[Loki]

give him that Suns squad and they beat Jordan

:oldlol:

Uhh, no.

[Bimbo Coles]

KJs was so explosive, he would do a crossover and be 2 steps by his man like that, he could blow by anyone 1 on 1, that and his finishing ability are what set him apart from CP3 IMO.

Kevin Johnson is one of only four players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists per game in three different seasons. Johnson is one of four players to have averaged at least 15.0 points and 10.0 assists per game over the course of a season while shooting at least .500 from the field. Johnson is one of only two players (the other is Magic Johnson) to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists per game over the course of a season while shooting at least .500 from the field.

I

[Lebron23]

Prime Kevin Johnson will break the ankle of CP3.

[west]

not even close,KJ all the way:rockon:

[Bimbo Coles]

Prime Kevin Johnson will break the ankle of CP3.

Converse, again

[AItheAnswer3]

What is the point of that comment? To demonstrate that he has the ability?:confusedshrug: In reality, he does not defend well, therefore he is nothing more than an average defender.

+1..He's an average defender..Led the league in steals thrice :pimp:

[HYJ]

just wondering...

if you average 2+ steals per game then you will be considered as a great defensive player???

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

btw i will go with KJ...

one good season can never tell how good you are...

[Glove_20]

Kevin Johnson for me.



Chris Paul though is very good. However, KJ was too good. In his prime/peak he was on par with greats such as Gary Payton. The only PG in their primes/peak I would take over KJ for sure would be Magic and Big O, no one else. Those are "for sures" though. KJ has done what CP3 did this year for multiple years.


As far as KJ being overrated on ISH, he isn't at all. He's still underrated. I'd say he is a Top 40 Player All-Time, and a Top 10 PG All-Time (NOT Top 5). However, looking only at peak/prime, he is a Top 5 PG ever. But Top 10 lists are not just peak/prime, so KJ is a Top 10 PG ever...

[Pandaemonaeon]

average defenders do not get put on the all NBA 2nd team for defense

Larry Hughes made the all-NBA 1st team a few years ago for averaging nearly 3 steals per game entirely on gambling while in reality is an average defender.

Hell, Marcus Camby won the NBA Defensive Player of the Year award. It doesn't get any average than that.

[AItheAnswer3]

Larry Hughes made the all-NBA 1st team a few years ago for averaging nearly 3 steals per game entirely on gambling while in reality is an average defender.

Hell, Marcus Camby won the NBA Defensive Player of the Year award. It doesn't get any average than that.

AI never made the all-defensive team & he has 3 steals titles..I consider him an average defender

[L.Kizzle]

Kevin Johnson for me.



Chris Paul though is very good. However, KJ was too good. In his prime/peak he was on par with greats such as Gary Payton. The only PG in their primes/peak I would take over KJ for sure would be Magic and Big O, no one else. Those are "for sures" though. KJ has done what CP3 did this year for multiple years.


As far as KJ being overrated on ISH, he isn't at all. He's still underrated. I'd say he is a Top 40 Player All-Time, and a Top 10 PG All-Time (NOT Top 5). However, looking only at peak/prime, he is a Top 5 PG ever. But Top 10 lists are not just peak/prime, so KJ is a Top 10 PG ever...
Dam It Glove, KJ isn't top 40, geesh Louise ...

[97 bulls]

id say that paul has to accomplish alot more. his resume has to increase.

[HisJoeness]

I love KJ, one of my absolute favorite ballers. I hate to break out the "if" card but if he hadn't had so many injury plagued seasons, he would be top 5 pg easily and top 25 player of all-time.

[GMATCallahan]

Agree.

I didn't see him live, but I'm not sure I would put CP over him.

He was taller, stronger and quicker than CP.

CP has better handles, better range and is a better passer.

We'll have to wait for a couple more season to be the judges of that.

Since you didn't see him live, why are you bothering to comment? Chris Paul is not a better passer than Kevin Johnson. He may be flashier, but in terms of effectiveness, you could go with either one and Kevin Johnson is one of five players in NBA history (the others are John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, and Kevin Porter) to average at least 12.0 assists in a season. Additionally, K.J. averaged 11.1 assists over a four-season stretch from 1989-1992 (before Charles Barkley arrived and altered Phoenix's offense) and Johnson averaged 10.0 assists in his nine seasons as a starter from 1989-1997. K.J. also once passed for 25 assists in a single game and he featured playoff games of 19 and 18 assists, none of which can be said of Paul.

I wouldn't say that Paul is necessarily a better ball-handler, either, as K.J.'s cross-over was more whipping. K.J. was a better shooter, and Paul's range isn't necessarily better. K.J. just didn't bother to shoot three-pointers for most of his career, but over a two-season stretch in 1996 and 1997, he shot .425 on threes, including .441 in 1997, good for third in the NBA behind only Glen Rice and Steve Kerr.

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leadersbyseason.htm?stat=tppct&lg=n&yr=1996

When Paul ranks third in the NBA in three-point field goal percentage over the course of a full season, let me know. In fact, in 1997, K.J. became the first player in league history to rank in the top-three in both three-point accuracy and assists per game (John Stockton and Steve Nash later matched the feat).

Paul has certainly become a satisfactory jump-shooter, but K.J.'s shooting release proved quite a bit quicker and his stroke was smoother.

Paul is a special point guard, but so was K. Johnson.

[Showtime]

I will say this: KJ had a LOT of talent around him compared to CP. Individually, I don't see what KJ does to help his team that CP cannot do. Both are great PG's, and Paul will have a great career if he can stay healthy.

[magnax1]

Pretty close, Neither are that special on defense, but Paul is the better passer, and nearly maybe even completely as good of a scorer. I'll give it to CP3.

[GMATCallahan]

Where is Glove_20 to spam GMAT's email account with this thread link? lol

"GMAT!!! Its gametime. *insert link*"

"GMAT!!! Where are you? You there? *insert link* 25 replies so far. They have no clue!!!"

"GMAT!!! You read my last 2 msgs, I checked. Says you read them. Why would they lie to me? You better have a damn good excuse why you're ignoring me. Answer me!"

"GMAT!!! Its Glove_20 again, sorry for the last email. I got besides myself. I APOLOGIZE. Do you accept, yes_ no_ maybe_ CHECK ONE. Please."

"GMAT!!! Glove_20 again, maybe you arent getting these. But here is the link *insert link*"

Are you jealous?

[L.Kizzle]

Kevin Johnson is one of the most underrated players outside of inside hoops. Now, on inside hoops, completely overrated.

[GMATCallahan]

Pretty close, Neither are that special on defense, but Paul is the better passer, and nearly maybe even completely as good of a scorer. I'll give it to CP3.

Provide some evidence to support your case. In terms of passing, has Paul averaged at least 12.0 assists in a season, like K.J.? Has he passed for 25 assists in a game, like K.J.? Has he posted playoff games with 19 and 18 assists, respectively, like K.J.? Has a plethora of players enjoyed the most effective offensive performances of their careers with Paul, as occurred with K.J.? Obviously, Paul is a boon to his teammates, but K.J. did a better job of creating high-percentage looks.

You can fallaciously claim that Paul is "the better passer," but your misguided statement merely represents your dubious opinion, not an empirical truth. As borne out by the numbers, their passing level proves approximate.

As for scoring, Paul hasn't scored more than 35 in a playoff game, whereas K.J. scored between 37 and 46 in a playoff game six different times, averaging 40.0 points, 10.0 assists, a .538 field goal percentage (86-160, 26.7 FGA), and an .899 free throw percentage (62-69, 11.5 FTA) during those games. Of course, Paul still features plenty of time to record those types of playoff scoring performances, but K.J. was more explosive one-on-one, better at finishing with his left hand, and in possession of a quicker, more lethal pull-up jumper.

(K.J. also posted his numbers in an era with more physical play, hand-checking, and when defenders were allowed to remain in the lane for more than three seconds at a time.)

And K.J. was adept enough defensively to draw the assignment of Michael Jordan for half of the 1993 NBA Finals. K.J. obviously couldn't stop Jordan, but the Suns' defense held-up better as Phoenix went 2-1 in those games, losing only by one point in Game Six on John Paxson's infamous three-pointer. Indeed, K.J. was one of the the better defensive point guards of his era. When Johnson missed Game One of the 1993 Western Conference First Round with a severely sprained MCL, the Lakers' leading scorer, point guard Sedale Threatt (who had averaged 15.1 points on .508 field goal shooting during the regular season) exploded for 35 points on 17-24 (.708) shooting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199304300PHO.html

As a result, the Suns were eagerly awaiting the return of K.J.'s defense, even though he was far from fully healthy.


Stunned Suns Add a Starter Against Lakers - NBA playoffs: Kevin Johnson returns today to put some heat on Threatt.

By HELENE ELLIOTT, TIMES STAFF WRITER

May 02, 1993

... Johnson sat out the first game to give his sprained left knee time to heal. His replacement, Negele Knight, scored 10 points as Threatt and Byron Scott outscored their backcourt counterparts, 57-19.

As much as the Suns missed Johnson's ballhandling, they missed his defensive skills even more. Coach Paul Westphal lamented his team's inability to hold on after Tom Chambers' baseline jump shot with 2:39 to play put Phoenix ahead, 103-98, and said Johnson should help defensively.

"KJ's our best guy to play Sedale and it would be nice to have him," Westphal said. "If he's (a totally fit) KJ, he can help us a great deal in a lot of ways. ...

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-05-02/sports/sp-30312_1_kevin-johnson


In the series' final four games with K.J. back in the fold, Threatt averaged just 13.8 points on .338 (22-65) shooting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199305090PHO.html

I actually admire Paul's game, but let's see him stifle an explosive point guard over the course of a playoff series. He's so short, and his arms are so short, that he struggles to affect opposing shooters such as Chauncey Billups.

[GMATCallahan]

Kevin Johnson is one of the most underrated players outside of inside hoops. Now, on inside hoops, completely overrated.

He was one of the best point guards in NBA history. If that's overrated for you, then so be it.

[L.Kizzle]

He was one of the best point guards in NBA history. If that's overrated for you, then so be it.
I never said he wasn't.

[GMATCallahan]

I will say this: KJ had a LOT of talent around him compared to CP. Individually, I don't see what KJ does to help his team that CP cannot do. Both are great PG's, and Paul will have a great career if he can stay healthy.

K.J. plays better individual defense (see my earlier post) and creates more high-percentage looks in the basket area. Paul tends to be more conservative in his playmaking, which is fine, but he won't create as many stellar shooting opportunities at the rim, especially without a jump-out-of-the-gym center such as Tyson Chandler.

As for the talent around K.J., prior to his first full season in Phoenix, '88-'89, the Suns had gone four straight years without winning more than 36 games, averaging 32.0 wins per season from 1985-1988, missing the playoffs during the last three of those years, and going 28-54 in '87-'88. Then in '88-'89, the Suns went 55-27, two wins behind the Lakers for the West's best record, and advanced to the Western Conference Finals. It marked the beginning of a seven-season stretch in which K.J.'s Suns won the most regular season games in the NBA (394, an average of 56.3 and never fewer than 53 in a season) and the second-most playoff games (46, trailing only Chicago).

Of course, in '88-'89, the Suns also added a new head coach in Cotton Fitzsimmons and a new high-scoring forward in Tom Chambers. Certainly, K.J. didn't turn the franchise around single-handedly, but Chambers' performance improved almost exponentially as soon as he joined Johnson. In seven previous NBA seasons, Chambers had never made an All-NBA Team, whereas now he made the All-NBA Second Team in his first two years in Phoenix. There's a reason why Chambers later called Johnson, "the guy who made me the player I am."

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/column_042299.html?nav=ArticleList

Moreover, in '89-'90, when K.J. averaged 11.4 assists (11.7 in the 72 games where he played over 6 minutes), his starting power forward and center were defensive role players named Kurt Rambis and Mark West, respectively. And when K.J. passed for 19 assists in Game Two of the 1992 Western Conference First Round against San Antonio, Chambers didn't even play due to injury while an ailing Dan Majerle (who wouldn't play in Game Three) shot 1-8 from the field in 21 minutes.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199204260PHO.html

Indeed, have you ever wondered why the Philadelphia 76ers miscalculated the Charles Barkley trade so badly, fallaciously thinking that Jeff Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang constituted a worthwhile return? Which underlying element do you think that the Sixers failed to correctly gauge?

I do agree, though, that both Paul and K.J. represent greatness among point guards and that you can't go wrong with either one.

[GMATCallahan]

I never said he wasn't.

... fair enough. Chris Paul is also outstanding, certainly on the same type of level.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I dont even like CP3 but currently he is better then KJ ever was...give him that Suns squad and they beat Jordan
Agreed ...

[magnax1]

Provide some evidence to support your case. In terms of passing, has Paul averaged at least 12.0 assists in a season, like K.J.? Has he passed for 25 assists in a game, like K.J.? Has he posted playoff games with 19 and 18 assists, respectively, like K.J.? Has a plethora of players enjoyed the most effective offensive performances of their careers with Paul, as occurred with K.J.? Obviously, Paul is a boon to his teammates, but K.J. did a better job of creating high-percentage looks.

You can fallaciously claim that Paul is "the better passer," but your misguided statement merely represents your dubious opinion, not an empirical truth. As borne out by the numbers, their passing level proves approximate.

As for scoring, Paul hasn't scored more than 35 in a playoff game, whereas K.J. scored between 37 and 46 in a playoff game six different times, averaging 40.0 points, 10.0 assists, a .538 field goal percentage (86-160, 26.7 FGA), and an .899 free throw percentage (62-69, 11.5 FTA) during those games. Of course, Paul still features plenty of time to record those types of playoff scoring performances, but K.J. was more explosive one-on-one, better at finishing with his left hand, and in possession of a quicker, more lethal pull-up jumper.

(K.J. also posted his numbers in an era with more physical play, hand-checking, and when defenders were allowed to remain in the lane for more than three seconds at a time.)

And K.J. was adept enough defensively to draw the assignment of Michael Jordan for half of the 1993 NBA Finals. K.J. obviously couldn't stop Jordan, but the Suns' defense held-up better as Phoenix went 2-1 in those games, losing only by one point in Game Six on John Paxson's infamous three-pointer. Indeed, K.J. was one of the the better defensive point guards of his era. When Johnson missed Game One of the 1993 Western Conference First Round with a severely sprained MCL, the Lakers' leading scorer, point guard Sedale Threatt (who had averaged 15.1 points on .508 field goal shooting during the regular season) exploded for 35 points on 17-24 (.708) shooting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199304300PHO.html

As a result, the Suns were eagerly awaiting the return of K.J.'s defense, even though he was far from fully healthy.



In the series' final four games with K.J. back in the fold, Threatt averaged just 13.8 points on .338 (22-65) shooting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199305090PHO.html

I actually admire Paul's game, but let's see him stifle an explosive point guard over the course of a playoff series. He's so short, and his arms are so short, that he struggles to affect opposing shooters such as Chauncey Billups.
Kevin Johnson is not as good of a passer, his assist #'s were inflated because of the extremely high pace and great offensive players he had around him, like Barkley, Hornacek, Chambers, Marjelejeyly, and others.
Chris Paul certainly hasn't proven anything yet (especially playoff wise), and is so over rated on here, it boggles my mind, but KJ isn't alot better than him, if any. Its close though.

[Bigsmoke]

Here's my list of Top 10 PGs of all time:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Bob Cousy
5. Chris Paul
6. Walt frazier
7. John Stockton
8. Kevin Johnson
9. Gary Payton
10. Jason Kidd

CP3 is therefore apparently better than KJ.

CP3 has ways to go to pass up Stockton

[GP_20]

He was one of the best point guards in NBA history. If that's overrated for you, then so be it.
GMAT returns
:applause:

Hey GMAT check your PMs

[AirJordan&Magic]

Are you out of your mind???? "Give Chris Paul that Suns team and the Suns win a championship"???

Your a fool and you obviously did not see a Kj play. Kevin Johnson has done what Chris Paul has done for more seasons AND MORE.

When has Chris Paul ever averaged 12.0 apg for a season??? I'm waiting. When has he ever dished out more than 20 assist in a game or 19 assists in a playoff game?? I'm still waiting. I've never even seen Kevin Johnson perform as soft as Cp3 did against the Nuggets.
Kevin Johnson was a better playoff performer than Chris Paul can even dream of being.

Honestly, I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what it is exactly Chris Paul does better than Kevin Johnson besides playing the passing lanes.

Kevin Johnson was a smarter and more effecient player, he was a better, more effective passer, was a better shooter, better defender, better slasher and finisher at the rim, was more fundamentally sound.
There is nothing that suggest that Chris Paul is better or even as good as a prime Kevin Johnson.

[Mr.Explosive]

WTF ever happened to ranking people all time AFTER there careers are finished? Just makes more sense to me , I don't really dig these threads.

[Bigsmoke]

Chris Paul.

[KingJay718]

KJ is so underrated, it is not even funny. He had the complete game. griving ability, mid range game was automatic, and he could run a team. I miss that dude.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Are you serious?? What Chris Paul has done nothing that has topped any of Kevin Johnson's seasons.

If anything, Chris Paul was a better rebounder, thats about it.

The only people that is in awe of what Cp3 did didn't see Kevin Johnson in his prime.

[Duncan21formvp]

KJ

[Bigsmoke]

Are you serious?? What Chris Paul has done nothing that has topped any of Kevin Johnson's seasons.

\.

Chris Paul is a better scorer... and a better defender... and he could flip franchises around better too... and did i mention that CP3 is better? The Suns had their best record when Kevin Johnson played only 49 games so he cant be that good.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Chris Paul is a better scorer... and a better defender... and he could flip franchises around better too... and did i mention that CP3 is better? The Suns had their best record when Kevin Johnson played only 49 games so he cant be that good.
Your out of your mind if Chris Paul is a better defender than Kj!

Better at playing the passing lanes? yes....better man-to-man? hell no!

And they are just about even when it comes to scoring, though I still give the edge to Kevin Johnson.

And one thing that Kevin Johnson was that Chris Paul has yet to prove he is, was a great playoff performer. You never would see Kevin Johnson roll over like a little b***** like Cp3 did against the Nuggets.

[JustSaying]

Paul = most overrated PG on ISH.

JustSaying

[Story Up]

Chris Paul is already the Fifth best PG of all time while Kevin Johnson is at best somewhere between top 8-10.

He said prime Kevin Johnson, a guy who was as good as any PG in his prime besides Magic and Oscar, IMO.

[Bigsmoke]

Your out of your mind if Chris Paul is a better defender than Kj!

Better at playing the passing lanes? yes....better man-to-man? hell no!

And they are just about even when it comes to scoring, though I still give the edge to Kevin Johnson.

And one thing that Kevin Johnson was that Chris Paul has yet to prove he is, was a great playoff performer. You never would see Kevin Johnson roll over like a little b***** like Cp3 did against the Nuggets.

Chris Paul didnt have Barkley. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i remembered that KJ was boo'd by his own fans for choking horrible in the first 2 games in the finals at home and he had to have Barkley going against the media saying to not go to the games if you're gonna give him a hard time.

How many people are gonna bring up that **** about Chris Paul getting blown out by the Nuggets. Kobe and his Lakers got blown out by 40 points in the most important game of his life so does that make him garbage?

Chris Paul teams was blown out... Tyson Chandler wasnt even playing and sadly he was their 3rd most improtant player

[phxsuns4life]

Who was better in prime based on individual ability? NOT who had better season, but who was better guard? Would old PG's like KJ, Payton, Stockton, and Isiah win MVP in today's guard friendly NBA?

I like this thread a lot. I'll have Mr. Mayor in his prime please. Best PG to ever don a Suns jersey not called Steve Nash (Nash has the #1 spot IMO).

He was undersized but he played tall and played well with the squad. He had heart and would dunk on your ass if you let him. Not to deny CP3 is a great PG who has played well in his few years in the NBA, but prime Kevin Jonhson please.

[Cermet]

Here's my list of Top 10 PGs of all time:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Bob Cousy
5. Chris Paul
6. Walt frazier
7. John Stockton
8. Kevin Johnson
9. Gary Payton
10. Jason Kidd

CP3 is therefore apparently better than KJ.

ofcourse CP3 is not even in the middle of his career and he's the 5th best PG in the history of NBA and John Stockton is 7?7??? Really ? Kid is 10..... and Nash is not even here .. Oh man that's probably the worst Top 10 PG list of all time....

[Lebron23]

Prime Kevin Johnson led his team twice in the western conference finals, and averaged 23/12 back in the 1980's. Prime KJ would be the best PG in today's NBA.