top 10 players of the 90s

[guy]

Wanted to see what people think. Here's my list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. David Robinson
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Clyde Drexler
8. Scottie Pippen
9. Patrick Ewing
10.John Stockton

#4-#5 and #7-#9 could really go either way for me.

[plowking]

Gary Payton would definately be in my list. Over some of those guys.

[guy]

Gary Payton would definately be in my list. Over some of those guys.

Gary was great, but the 90s was stacked. Who would you put him over?

[Legend of Josh]

Where's Detlef Schrempf! This is an outrage! I call shenanigans!

Oh, and why is Stockton below Robinson and Drexler?

[canadianballer]

good list, maybe some player rankings debately (stockton) but over all solid

[guy]

David Robinson won an MVP and had better overall stats, although some of that could be attributed to him being a center while Stockton was a PG. Drexler was the leader of two teams that went to the Finals and then won a title with Hakeem. Stockton is one of the most underappreciated players cause he played with Malone, but I don't think I can put him above those players, although I wouldn't blame someone if they did. At the same time, I think Drexler is wayy underrated and maybe the most unappreciated player ever.

[Dasher]

Gary was great, but the 90s was stacked. Who would you put him over?Stockton, Drexler, Scottie, Ewing, and DRob.

[rzp]

Shaq was already better than D-Rob since his first day in the NBA

[Legend of Josh]

David Robinson won an MVP and had better overall stats, although some of that could be attributed to him being a center while Stockton was a PG. Drexler was the leader of two teams that went to the Finals and then won a title with Hakeem. Stockton is one of the most underappreciated players cause he played with Malone, but I don't think I can put him above those players, although I wouldn't blame someone if they did. At the same time, I think Drexler is wayy underrated and maybe the most unappreciated player ever.

I agree, Drexler was underrated. Drexler though, was more about entertaining crowds (not saying that was his goal, just his style of play superseded his ability to win games) - that's where his ultimate value came in, and that's how he will be remembered.

Yes, Robinson won an MVP title, but there's no way Stockton could have even been MVP playing with Malone. I agree with most of your list, I just think Stockton was a more valuable player on average year-for-year than Drexler or Robinson.

[Legend of Josh]

Stockton, Drexler, Scottie, Ewing, and DRob.

You'd put Gary over these guys? I was a huge Payton fan myself, but give me Stockton, Ewing and Drexler over Payton any day. I'd even say Scottie was more valuable during his prime than a prime Payton too. DRob is about the only one I would somewhat agree with you on.

[plowking]

Stockton, Drexler, Scottie, Ewing, and DRob.

Agreed.

[guy]

I agree, Drexler was underrated. Drexler though, was more about entertaining crowds (not saying that was his goal, just his style of play superseded his ability to win games) - that's where his ultimate value came in, and that's how he will be remembered.

He led a team to 2 Finals and he eventually won a title so how can you imply he didn't know how to win games?



Yes, Robinson won an MVP title, but there's no way Stockton could have even been MVP playing with Malone. I agree with most of your list, I just think Stockton was a more valuable player on average year-for-year than Drexler or Robinson.

No way man. Robinson never really had a great 2nd option and some of his supporting casts were not that good at all, but he always carried the Spurs to 50+ win seasons and into the playoffs. And I agree that Stockton couldn't have won an MVP playing with Malone, but a bigger reason why he wouldn't have won is cause there was no way he would've taken MVPs away from the likes of Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, etc.

[Dasher]

You'd put Gary over these guys? I was a huge Payton fan myself, but give me Stockton, Ewing and Drexler over Payton any day. I'd even say Scottie was more valuable during his prime than a prime Payton too. DRob is about the only one I would somewhat agree with you on.Gary is arguably one of the greatest defenders of all time. The only PG who can match him on both sides of the court is Walt Frazier.

He regularly sonned John Stockton, and is reponsible for the most underwhelming finals performance of Jordan's career.

Payton had the killer instinct that Ewing lacked. For the better part of the 90's Patrick was jumpshooting big man.

Drexler is Gary's equal on the offensive end, but the gulf between them on the defensive end is canyonesque.

Scottie was not as valuble during his prime. His prime was also much shorter than Gary's. Scottie was only the man for one season. Gary was the man for the majority of the 90's.

[guy]

You'd put Gary over these guys? I was a huge Payton fan myself, but give me Stockton, Ewing and Drexler over Payton any day. I'd even say Scottie was more valuable during his prime than a prime Payton too. DRob is about the only one I would somewhat agree with you on.

If you would put all those guys ahead of Payton but not Robinson then you're really underrating him.

[Collie]

Actually I'd say Gary Payton has a chance against any of those guys mentioned EXCEPT David Robinson. And Scottie Pippen.

Drob was a 25-11 player before Tim Duncan, won an MVP and led his teams to 55+ wins several seasons with guys like Sean Elliot and a past prime Terry Cummings as his second options. Before 95, he was considered a better player than Hakeem Olajuwon. He has career averages of 21 ppg and 11 rpg, despite having drastically lower numbers over the span of Tim Duncan's entry into the league. He's a scoring champ, a defensive stalwart, and is one of the greatest scoring big men of all time.

I don't see how any of Payton's accomplishments could put him over Drob, especially since Payton's teams were deeper, and they had virtually the same success as the 90's Spurs.

[guy]

Actually I'd say Gary Payton has a chance against any of those guys mentioned EXCEPT David Robinson. And Scottie Pippen.

Drob was a 25-11 player before Tim Duncan, won an MVP and led his teams to 55+ wins several seasons with guys like Sean Elliot and a past prime Terry Cummings as his second options. Before 95, he was considered a better player than Hakeem Olajuwon. He has career averages of 21 ppg and 11 rpg, despite having drastically lower numbers over the span of Tim Duncan's entry into the league. He's a scoring champ, a defensive stalwart, and is one of the greatest scoring big men of all time.

I don't see how any of Payton's accomplishments could put him over Drob, especially since Payton's teams were deeper, and they had virtually the same success as the 90's Spurs.

Agreed. I don't think its a big deal if someone put Payton over Drexler, Pippen, Ewing, or Stockton, but no way he is over Robinson.

[plowking]

Yer sorry, take Robinson out. Was an MVP and in my eyes one of the most underrated centres. Had great stats as well.

Though all the other guys, Payton was definately better then. The guy gets overlooked due to not having standout stats. Though you look at his defense and the on court presence he had. His full effect on a game wasn't displayed in that stats.

[Glove_20]

:oldlol: at anyone thinking about putting Payton over David Robinson. David Robinson is arguably Top 3 in the 90s. It's actually a toss up between Robinson and Malone. He's over Barkley though.


I would actually put Stockton, Ewing, and Pippen all over Payton in the 90s. Drexler is the only one who I would take out and replace with Payton. Everyone forgets that some of Payton's best years were in the 00s. In the early 90s he was very limited while Stockton, Ewing, and Pippen played well all throughout the 90s. They all enjoyed their best seasons in the 90s and that particular time frame (90-99) worked in their favor because that was some of their best seasons. In his late 90s prime he was better than some of these guys, however as a whole decade, he falls short. Though it's close, I would still take Stockton/Ewing/Pippen over Payton in the 90s. Though I would kick out Drexler and replace him with Payton or KJ.

[hateraid]

Wanted to see what people think. Here's my list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. David Robinson
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Clyde Drexler
8. Scottie Pippen
9. Patrick Ewing
10.John Stockton

#4-#5 and #7-#9 could really go either way for me.


I'm satisfied with this list. I was trying to possibly debate a way for Chris Mullins, Dennis Rodman, and Reggie Miller to be in there, but coulnd't find justifed enough reasons. I wanted to say Magic and Zeke being the tail end of their careers but still in the 90's but I was thinking more predominantly 90's.

Good solid list.

[JStewart]

Was Clyde Drexler better in the 90s or 80s? I think Jordan keeps Reggie Miller from making the list. Solid list though.

[ForceOfNature]

You'd put Gary over these guys? I was a huge Payton fan myself, but give me Stockton, Ewing and Drexler over Payton any day. I'd even say Scottie was more valuable during his prime than a prime Payton too. DRob is about the only one I would somewhat agree with you on.
Haha no way. Robinson is among the top 5, no question. I would say it's arguable if he should be above Barkley at #4. I might put Payton over Stockton, Ewing, and Drexler though. However, Pippen and Robinson are better than Payton.

[Maniak]

1.Michael Jordan
2.Shaquille O'neal
3.Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Charles Barkley
5.David Robinson
6.Karl Malone
7.Patrick Ewing
8. Clyde Drexler
9. Scotte Pippen
10. John Stockton

imo

[k-vil]

1. Michael Jordan - hands down choce at the # 1 position. the rest is a chaos!

[HisJoeness]

Was Clyde Drexler better in the 90s or 80s? I think Jordan keeps Reggie Miller from making the list. Solid list though.

I think it's a wash. Although he certainly had some of his more explosive scoring seasons when Portland was runnin' and gunnin' in the 80's. He was probably a better all around player in Houston and when Portland got better in 90, 91, and 92 and even giving Jordan a run as the NBA's best player in 91-92.

[Lebron23]

1.Michael Jordan
2.Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. David Robinson
6.Karl Malone
7.Patrick Ewing
8. Clyde Drexler
9. Scottie Pippen
10. John Stockton

[magic chiongson]

why am i not seeing Grant Hill in here? even in his rookie year (1994) he was already a top 20 player imo

[Shep]

1. Michael Jordan
2. David Robinson
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Karl Malone
5. Scottie Pippen
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. John Stockton
8. Patrick Ewing
9. Gary Payton
10. Tim Hardaway

[plowking]

1.Michael Jordan
2.Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. David Robinson
6.Karl Malone
7.Patrick Ewing
8. Clyde Drexler
9. Scottie Pippen
10. John Stockton

So Shaq wasn't as good as any of these guys?

[plowking]

1. Michael Jordan
2. David Robinson
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Karl Malone
5. Scottie Pippen
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. John Stockton
8. Patrick Ewing
9. Gary Payton
10. Tim Hardaway

Put Shaq at 4. There is no way that Karl Malone and Scottie were better then him.

[chains5000]

Put Shaq at 4. There is no way that Karl Malone and Scottie were better then him.
I'd rank Malone over him because of his two MVPs in the decade.

[plowking]

I'd rank Malone over him because of his two MVPs in the decade.

MVP's mean jack to me. Especially when Steve Nash has two of them and the most dominating centre ever has 1.

[JStewart]

MVP's mean jack to me. Especially when Steve Nash has two of them and the most dominating centre ever has 1.

Good point, for Shaq to only have one MVP is a farce, but you also have to factor in Malone's trips to the NBA finals during the decade.

[Niquesports]

Gary was great, but the 90s was stacked. Who would you put him over?


I personally would put him over Stockton and Scottie

[Niquesports]

David Robinson won an MVP and had better overall stats, although some of that could be attributed to him being a center while Stockton was a PG. Drexler was the leader of two teams that went to the Finals and then won a title with Hakeem. Stockton is one of the most underappreciated players cause he played with Malone, but I don't think I can put him above those players, although I wouldn't blame someone if they did. At the same time, I think Drexler is wayy underrated and maybe the most unappreciated player ever.
I Think that title would have to go to Pat Ewing. He is way too low. IF John Starks doesnt go 0 for 100 Ewing wins a title IF the Knicks ever put some strong support players behind Ewing maybe MJ doesnt win 6 titles.Not saying he was better than Shaq but surely better than D Rob

[Niquesports]

:oldlol: at anyone thinking about putting Payton over David Robinson. David Robinson is arguably Top 3 in the 90s. It's actually a toss up between Robinson and Malone. He's over Barkley though.


I would actually put Stockton, Ewing, and Pippen all over Payton in the 90s. Drexler is the only one who I would take out and replace with Payton. Everyone forgets that some of Payton's best years were in the 00s. In the early 90s he was very limited while Stockton, Ewing, and Pippen played well all throughout the 90s. They all enjoyed their best seasons in the 90s and that particular time frame (90-99) worked in their favor because that was some of their best seasons. In his late 90s prime he was better than some of these guys, however as a whole decade, he falls short. Though it's close, I would still take Stockton/Ewing/Pippen over Payton in the 90s. Though I would kick out Drexler and replace him with Payton or KJ.

Where is the love for Drex. Behind MJ the second best SG in the 90's Sometimes the city the player plays in can hurt him or his personality. Drex was a big talker was a little laid back but his game wasnt The only fai way to do list like this is to say take the player off his team and how do you think he would have done on a weak team.I dont think its any question that as good as Stockton was his game would drop the most on a weak team

[Collie]

I Think that title would have to go to Pat Ewing. He is way too low. IF John Starks doesnt go 0 for 100 Ewing wins a title IF the Knicks ever put some strong support players behind Ewing maybe MJ doesnt win 6 titles.Not saying he was better than Shaq but surely better than D Rob

To be fair to Starks, Ewing had a terrible series against Hakeem as well, scoring around 18 at low percentages.

[AItheAnswer3]

1.Michael Jordan
2.Shaquille O'neal
3.Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Charles Barkley
5.David Robinson
6.Karl Malone
7.Patrick Ewing
8. Clyde Drexler
9. Scotte Pippen
10. John Stockton

imo

Shaq's too high. I'd put him between Malone and Ewing. Shaq was still dominant in the 90s but he didnt win a ring.

[chains5000]

MVP's mean jack to me. Especially when Steve Nash has two of them and the most dominating centre ever has 1.
Well, he won one with MJ still around. Even if he didn't deserve it, just being considered for it shows how good he was back then.
Also, he made it to the Finals twice in a row.

[Shep]

Put Shaq at 4. There is no way that Karl Malone and Scottie were better then him.
- malone played all 10 years of the decade, o'neal played 7
- malone was 1st team all-nba all 10 years, and deservedly so, o'neal never deserved a spot on the 1st team
- malone deserved 1 mvp, o'neal deserved 0 mvp's
- malone was named 1st team all-defense 3 times, o'neal was named to 0 defensive teams
- malone missed 3 games the entire decade, o'neal missed 10 times that in 1 season alone, and 86 total, in less available games.
- malone had 4 legendary seasons, o'neal had 2

- pippen played all 10 years of the decade, o'neal played 7
- pippen deserved 1st team all nba selection 4 times, o'neal never deserved a spot on the 1st team
- pippen was named 1st team all-defense 8 times, o'neal was named to 0 defensive teams
- pippen missed 23 games the entire decade, o'neal missed 86, in less available time

[Manute for Ever!]

The admiral is becoming REALLY underrated on ISH, but I guess most posters here really only saw teamed with Duncan, rather than being the man. That 71 point game was so beautiful to watch, I remember it like it was yesterday.

[plowking]

- malone played all 10 years of the decade, o'neal played 7
- malone was 1st team all-nba all 10 years, and deservedly so, o'neal never deserved a spot on the 1st team
- malone deserved 1 mvp, o'neal deserved 0 mvp's
- malone was named 1st team all-defense 3 times, o'neal was named to 0 defensive teams
- malone missed 3 games the entire decade, o'neal missed 10 times that in 1 season alone, and 86 total, in less available games.
- malone had 4 legendary seasons, o'neal had 2

- pippen played all 10 years of the decade, o'neal played 7
- pippen deserved 1st team all nba selection 4 times, o'neal never deserved a spot on the 1st team
- pippen was named 1st team all-defense 8 times, o'neal was named to 0 defensive teams
- pippen missed 23 games the entire decade, o'neal missed 86, in less available time

Let me put it this way, if you were to rank Carmelo, Lebron and Wade for the 00's, which order would you put them in?

[guy]

I Think that title would have to go to Pat Ewing. He is way too low. IF John Starks doesnt go 0 for 100 Ewing wins a title IF the Knicks ever put some strong support players behind Ewing maybe MJ doesnt win 6 titles.Not saying he was better than Shaq but surely better than D Rob

I already said Drexler, Pippen, and Ewing could really go either way. And no I don't see Ewing as better then Robinson. Robinson was a better scorer, rebounder, and defender IMO. And I don't see how Ewing is more underrappreciated then Drexler. He gets way more mention then Drexler.

[Lebron23]

My 1990's NBA All Star


Starting 5

C- Hakeem Olajuwon
F- Karl Malone
F- Scottie Pippen
G- Michael Jordan
G- John Stockton

Off the Bench

C- David Robinson
F- Patrick Ewing
F- Grant Hill
G- Clyde Drexler
G- Gary Payton

C-Shaquille O'Neal
G- Reggie Miller

Coach: Phil Jackson
Asst. Coach: Rudy Tomjanovich

[Shep]

1. james
2. wade
3. anthony

[Shep]

My 1990's NBA All Star


Starting 5

C- Hakeem Olajuwon
F- Karl Malone
F- Scottie Pippen
G- Michael Jordan
G- John Stockton

Off the Bench

C- David Robinson
F- Patrick Ewing
F- Grant Hill
G- Clyde Drexler
G- Gary Payton

C-Shaquille O'Neal
G- Reggie Miller

Coach: Phil Jackson
Asst. Coach: Rudy Tomjanovich
here is the official team:

C David Robinson
PF Karl Malone
SF Scottie Pippen
SG Michael Jordan
PG John Stockton

C Hakeem Olajuwon
PF Charles Barkley
SF Grant Hill
SG Clyde Drexler
PG Gary Payton

C Shaquille O'Neal
C Patrick Ewing

[Young Money]

G - Michael Jordan
G - Scottie Pippen
F - Charles Barkley
F - Karl Malone
C - Hakeem Olajawoun

6 - Grant Hill
7 - Shaquile O'Neil
8 - Patrick Ewing
9 - Reggie Miller
10 - Penny Hardaway

[plowking]

1. james
2. wade
3. anthony

But Wade has more championships, finals MVP, same amount of all star appearances. Deserved a lot more defensive teams then he's gotten into.
Also he put up the greatest finals performance ever according to ESPN. He is more efficient then James.

See what I mean? You can bring up records and accomplishments, though they have no bearing in some way. Shaq was better then Malone despite all that Malone achieved. Hell I'd take Shawn Kemp of the 90's over Malone, but that's just me.

[Manute for Ever!]

But Wade has more championships, finals MVP, same amount of all star appearances. Deserved a lot more defensive teams then he's gotten into.
Also he put up the greatest finals performance ever according to ESPN. He is more efficient then James.

See what I mean? You can bring up records and accomplishments, though they have no bearing in some way. Shaq was better then Malone despite all that Malone achieved. Hell I'd take Shawn Kemp of the 90's over Malone, but that's just me.

I want some of what you and ESPN are smoking (if it wouldn't get me executed over here:D )

[Lebron23]

But Wade has more championships, finals MVP, same amount of all star appearances. Deserved a lot more defensive teams then he's gotten into.
Also he put up the greatest finals performance ever according to ESPN. He is more efficient then James.

See what I mean? You can bring up records and accomplishments, though they have no bearing in some way. Shaq was better then Malone despite all that Malone achieved. Hell I'd take Shawn Kemp of the 90's over Malone, but that's just me.


But he's injury prone, and Wade was never voted in the NBA First Team, never win an all star MVP, got swept in the first round by the Chicago Bulls, and he also have zero NBA Scoring title.

[chains5000]

But he's injury prone, and Wade was never voted in the NBA First Team, never win an all star MVP, got swept in the first round by the Chicago Bulls, and he also have zero NBA Scoring title.
Who cares about them?
Also, Lebron didn't even get to the playoffs during some seasons, as someone said the team also matters.
And the scoring title... well, there's several scoring titles in mediocre teams...
A title as the main option deserves more credit than those.

[plowking]

I want some of what you and ESPN are smoking (if it wouldn't get me executed over here:D )

I'm just trying to show how it can be a double standard in some ways in terms of accomplishments. I don't agree with it either.

[Lebron23]

Who cares about them?
Also, Lebron didn't even get to the playoffs during some seasons, as someone said the team also matters.
And the scoring title... well, there's several scoring titles in mediocre teams...
A title as the main option deserves more credit than those.


That was Sarcasm, and many people here will pick LeBron over Wade because he only missed 18 games in the first 5 years of his NBA Career.

:hammertime: :hammertime: :hammertime:

[plowking]

But he's injury prone, and Wade was never voted in the NBA First Team, never win an all star MVP, got swept in the first round by the Chicago Bulls, and he also have zero NBA Scoring title.

Scoring title or championship?
All star MVP or Finals MVP?
Swept out of first round while coming back from a dislocated shoulder that caused nerve damage.

Wade was never voted into the first team because he has the best player in the game infront of him at the moment in Kobe Bryant. Lebron wouldn't have cracked the first team by now either if he was considered a shooting guard.

[chains5000]

That was Sarcasm, and many people here will pick LeBron over Wade because he only missed 18 games in the first 5 years of his NBA Career.

:hammertime: :hammertime: :hammertime:
I'm at work, my sarcasm detector's at home, you know

[Shep]

But Wade has more championships, finals MVP, same amount of all star appearances. Deserved a lot more defensive teams then he's gotten into.
yes. that "same amount of all-star appearances" line convinced me that wade is better than james :roll: . defensive teams? :lol when has he deserved defensive team selections? championships? this is why he is over anthony. wade has been injured far too frequently to be considered above james, who has been in the top 3 players in the nba every year after his rookie year, something that can't be said for wade. james also carried a pathetic roster to the finals.

Also he put up the greatest finals performance ever according to ESPN. He is more efficient then James.
yes, he had a great finals, but that is 1 year out of 10. james never has averaged over 4 turnovers a game, wade has 3 times.

See what I mean? You can bring up records and accomplishments, though they have no bearing in some way.
:lol . records and accomplishments have no bearing :roll: used in the right way, records and accomplishments can be the difference between two players.

Shaq was better then Malone despite all that Malone achieved.
shaq was better some years, but he isn't helping his team if he's sitting at the end of the bench in street clothes for half a season - this, together with all that i mentioned is the difference between the two players.

Hell I'd take Shawn Kemp of the 90's over Malone, but that's just me.
:roll: this is the equilavent of taking dan majerle over clyde drexler

[Manute for Ever!]

I'm just trying to show how it can be a double standard in some ways in terms of accomplishments. I don't agree with it either.

That's cool. You just inspired my new Wade thread.

[shawbryant]

why there is no Penny Hardway on the top 10 list?:confusedshrug:

[plowking]

yes. that "same amount of all-star appearances" line convinced me that wade is better than james :roll: . defensive teams? :lol when has he deserved defensive team selections? championships? this is why he is over anthony. wade has been injured far too frequently to be considered above james, who has been in the top 3 players in the nba every year after his rookie year, something that can't be said for wade. james also carried a pathetic roster to the finals.
yes, he had a great finals, but that is 1 year out of 10. james never has averaged over 4 turnovers a game, wade has 3 times.

:lol . records and accomplishments have no bearing :roll: used in the right way, records and accomplishments can be the difference between two players.
shaq was better some years, but he isn't helping his team if he's sitting at the end of the bench in street clothes for half a season - this, together with all that i mentioned is the difference between the two players.

:roll: this is the equilavent of taking dan majerle over clyde drexler


Is this the same pathetic roster that sent Boston to seven games after Lebron was averaging 35% over the whole series. Yer they suck if they can take 3 all stars to 7 games with their so called "star" averaging 35% and something like 22ppg.

Used in the right way accomplishments have bearing? Well what makes my way the wrong way? I showed you that Wade has achieved more then Lebron, and when healthy many consider Wade to be close to or if not equal to James in terms of individually.

Now turnovers are the sole reason why one player is better then the other? LOL.

[Shep]

Is this the same pathetic roster that sent Boston to seven games after Lebron was averaging 35% over the whole series.
26.7ppg, 6.4rpg, 7.6apg, 2.14spg, 1.29bpg
no other player managed 12 points per game. without james the cavs are swept.

Yer they suck if they can take 3 all stars to 7 games with their so called "star" averaging 35% and something like 22ppg.
destroyed

Used in the right way accomplishments have bearing? Well what makes my way the wrong way?
simple: look outside the box. wade has won finals mvp, and won a championship. that is 1 year. he has also been injured, and led his teams to trash results. lebron has been consistantly superb every year without missing significant time and has also led his team to playoff success. it really is not close in terms who you would pick first on an all-decade team

I showed you that Wade has achieved more then Lebron, and when healthy many consider Wade to be close to or if not equal to James in terms of individually.
absolutely. "when healthy" they are very close in terms of production, but unfortunately for wade he is hardly ever healthy.

Now turnovers are the sole reason why one player is better then the other? LOL.
no, i just mentioned it because you mentioned efficiency.

[plowking]

26.7ppg, 6.4rpg, 7.6apg, 2.14spg, 1.29bpg
no other player managed 12 points per game. without james the cavs are swept.

destroyed

simple: look outside the box. wade has won finals mvp, and won a championship. that is 1 year. he has also been injured, and led his teams to trash results. lebron has been consistantly superb every year without missing significant time and has also led his team to playoff success. it really is not close in terms who you would pick first on an all-decade team

absolutely. "when healthy" they are very close in terms of production, but unfortunately for wade he is hardly ever healthy.

no, i just mentioned it because you mentioned efficiency.

Without Lebron they would have been swept. Correct. If Lebron could handle the pressure and is as good as he's made out to be, they would have advanced. 35% as the main option is good enough is it?

Remember 35% as the main option, the worst ever in the playoffs as the first option. Lebron goes missing in the finals as well. Remember the Spurs. He's done nothing in the playoffs.

Wade won the title and finals MVP. All that is is one year? He's been an all star for 4 seasons, the same as Lebron. He didn't just come out of no where. Lebron has zero titles, so in your logic, hes done nothing in any year.

When healthy, Wade is just as good as Lebron. He's hardly as injury prone as people make him out to be. Look at his first three seasons. In the past two he has only missed time due to coming back from a serious injury far too early in order to try and help his team in the playoffs.

Also playoffs success? Did you see what Wade did in the playoffs in his rookie year? How about his second? Many thought Miami was destined for the finals before Wade was run down by the flu. Third year? Championship. As far as I can see, the advantage is with Wade here.

Also I mentioned that Wade was the more efficient player. This takes into account everything on the court. Not something specific like turnovers where you simply chose a single statisical category to support Lebron. Efficiency on the other hand covers a players whole game.

[BIZARRO]

I think it's a wash. Although he certainly had some of his more explosive scoring seasons when Portland was runnin' and gunnin' in the 80's. He was probably a better all around player in Houston and when Portland got better in 90, 91, and 92 and even giving Jordan a run as the NBA's best player in 91-92.

Not by anyone who knew what the he** they were talking about.

Please don't make it seem like that was a reality. That was only a media fabrication for about 1 week in the summer of '92.

And it ended with the 6 3's. :pimp:

[BIZARRO]

I Think that title would have to go to Pat Ewing. He is way too low. IF John Starks doesnt go 0 for 100 Ewing wins a title IF the Knicks ever put some strong support players behind Ewing maybe MJ doesnt win 6 titles.Not saying he was better than Shaq but surely better than D Rob


Agreed. Patrick Ewing is underrated on ISH and DRob is overrated.

People try to make it like it isn't even close between the two of them, and that Robinson is far superior.

They were both great, and it is close, but if somebody gave me a draft pick at the beginning of their careers I would take Ewing.

Their career numbers are close, but if you take away Pat's last two years, (which is only fair as he would then have played to 37 like D-Rob), his stats look at least the equal to Robinson's.

Ewing- 22.8 and 10.4 2.7 blks 1.0stls
Robinson- 21.1. and 10.6 3.0 blks 1.4 stls

About equal.

They're about equal, but I just think Pat was a more natural player and more clutch. If I needed a big shot I would go to Pat before Robinson, which would seal it for me.

Anyway, I have no problem putting DROB over Pat for the '90's as his numbers were better in that period because he was younger.

However, for their whole careers, it is real tight. But I think I'd take Pat.

[guy]

Agreed. Patrick Ewing is underrated on ISH and DRob is overrated.

People try to make it like it isn't even close between the two of them, and that Robinson is far superior.

They were both great, and it is close, but if somebody gave me a draft pick at the beginning of their careers I would take Ewing.

Their career numbers are close, but if you take away Pat's last two years, (which is only fair as he would then have played to 37 like D-Rob), his stats look at least the equal to Robinson's.

Ewing- 22.8 and 10.4 2.7 blks 1.0stls
Robinson- 21.1. and 10.6 3.0 blks 1.4 stls

About equal.

They're about equal, but I just think Pat was a more natural player and more clutch. If I needed a big shot I would go to Pat before Robinson, which would seal it for me.

Anyway, I have no problem putting DROB over Pat for the '90's as his numbers were better in that period because he was younger.

However, for their whole careers, it is real tight. But I think I'd take Pat.

Neither one of them were even close to clutch. They were both criticized alot for that throughout their careers.

[BIZARRO]

Neither one of them were even close to clutch. They were both criticized alot for that throughout their careers.

Agreed. All I was saying that of the two, I would give Pat the ball over Robinson if I need a big shot. You're right, neither was "clutch". It's just that DRob was less clutch.

In truth, I'd give it to MJ, Bird, Reggie Miller, etc. and have them stand out of the way. :D

[TmacsRockets]

Wanted to see what people think. Here's my list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. David Robinson
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Clyde Drexler
8. Scottie Pippen
9. Patrick Ewing
10.John Stockton

#4-#5 and #7-#9 could really go either way for me.

Gary Payton over Pippen. Pippen was overrated as hell.

[Sir Charles]

1990-1995 (In General & Including Clutch Play-Offs)

1-Michael Jordan
2-Charles Barkley
3-Hakeem Olajuwon
4-David Robinson
5-Magic Johnson
6-Karl Malone
7-John Stockton
8-Shaquille Oneil
9-Patrick Ewing/Clyde Drexler
10-Scottie Pippen/Shawn Kemp

1990-1995 Starting Line Up

PG: Magic Johnson (John Stockton)
SG: Michael Jordan (Clydre Drexler)
C: Hakeem Olajuwon (David Robinson)
PF: Charles Barkley (Karl Malone)
SF: Scottie Pippen (Grant Hill/Larry Bird)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1995-1999 (In General & Including Clutch Play-Offs)

1-Michael Jordan
2-Shaq
3-Hakeem Olajuwon
4-Karl Malone
5-Gary Payton
6-Charles Barkley
7-Grant Hill
8-Chris Webber
9-Alonso Mourning & Tim Duncan
10-Kevin Garnett/Scottie Pippen/Clyde Drexler & John Stockton

1995-1999 Starting Line Up

PG: Gary Payton (John Stockton)
SG: Michael Jordan (Clydre Drexler)
C: Shaq (Hakeem)
PF: Karl Malone (Charles Barkley/Tim Duncan)
SF: Grant Hill (Scottie Pippen)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop Underrating Gary Payton (its Insulting). Payton from 1995/96 Season On...was the Best PG in the League :rolleyes: Period!

[eliteballer]

Agreed. Patrick Ewing is underrated on ISH and DRob is overrated.

People try to make it like it isn't even close between the two of them, and that Robinson is far superior.

They were both great, and it is close, but if somebody gave me a draft pick at the beginning of their careers I would take Ewing.

Their career numbers are close, but if you take away Pat's last two years, (which is only fair as he would then have played to 37 like D-Rob), his stats look at least the equal to Robinson's.

Ewing- 22.8 and 10.4 2.7 blks 1.0stls
Robinson- 21.1. and 10.6 3.0 blks 1.4 stls

About equal.

They're about equal, but I just think Pat was a more natural player and more clutch. If I needed a big shot I would go to Pat before Robinson, which would seal it for me.

Anyway, I have no problem putting DROB over Pat for the '90's as his numbers were better in that period because he was younger.

However, for their whole careers, it is real tight. But I think I'd take Pat.

:roll: Robinson is better at literally EVERY aspect of the game compared to Ewing. Yeah, lets take away Ewings last two years but not account for Robinson having a devastating injury which made him a shell for half of his career and compare their numbers:violin:

[Sir Charles]

:roll: Robinson is better at literally EVERY aspect of the game compared to Ewing. Yeah, lets take away Ewings last two years but not account for Robinson having a devastating injury which made him a shell for half of his career and compare their numbers:violin:

Patrick was way more clutch than Robinson would dream of being. He was warrior whom played with bad knees for most of his career not mattering whom he faced.

- Patrick had pathetic Scoring and Passing Teams with no where near the Supporting Casts Robinson had. Robinson had Great Scoring and Passing Teams plus has Championships stricktly do to Tim Duncan, whom comboed with him as 2 Center Piece System (Twin Towers).:banghead:

- Not to mention Patrick Ewing played in the Tougher Defensive Eastern Conference in the 80s and Early 90s:banghead:

- Patrick Was Seconds Away from Eliminating the 1992 Bulls (a very strange call on Pippen`s supposed block/foul against Charles Smith) with Jordan-Pippen-Grant and company. :banghead:

-Series in which injured he single handledly inspired his teamates all the way to game 7 :rant :banghead:

David was a more versetaile All-Around Player than Pat but if you had choose between them for the last second shot I would take Patrick not only because he was not a ***** like Robinson but he had superior shooting touch.:confusedshrug:

Patrick Ewing is the Most Underrated Center of All Time:rolleyes:

[Shep]

Without Lebron they would have been swept. Correct. If Lebron could handle the pressure and is as good as he's made out to be, they would have advanced. 35% as the main option is good enough is it?
its not good enough if you aren't doing anything else, but james averaged 26.7ppg, 6.4rpg, 7.6apg, 2.14spg, and 1.29bpg while having the defense totally focused on stopping one man - himself. this is easily good enough. you want to talk about handling pressure? i'll talk about 45 points, 5 rebounds, and 6 assists in game 7 of that series to come within 6 points of knocking the league's best team out of the playoffs on their own court.

Remember 35% as the main option, the worst ever in the playoffs as the first option. Lebron goes missing in the finals as well. Remember the Spurs. He's done nothing in the playoffs.
worst ever? i checked up on that, and the first season i checked had someone shoot worse than 35% as a main option in the playoffs - get your facts straight before making such statements
james went missing in the finals? wow, when you average 22/7/7 in the finals and people say you went missing you know you're a good player :oldlol: . again, the spurs defense was totally focused on shutting lebron down due to the fact that the cavs second best player was injured. the spurs were the league's best defense, and they had the league's best perimiter defender in bruce bowen - who guarded james. then you add the fact that big z contributed a big zero, and you've got a predictable sweep.
he's done nothing in the playoffs? :roll: what about lead that pathetic cleveland roster into their first ever nba finals? what about leading the cavs past the heavily favoured detroit pistons while averaging 26/9/9? what about averaging 36/8/6 against the wizards in '06, or 27/9/6 against the 64 win pistons, forcing them to 7 games? and i could go on

Wade won the title and finals MVP. All that is is one year? He's been an all star for 4 seasons, the same as Lebron. He didn't just come out of no where. Lebron has zero titles, so in your logic, hes done nothing in any year.
pathetic statement, once again. when did i say you have to win finals mvp to do anything? and all-star doesn't mean ****. popularity contest.

When healthy, Wade is just as good as Lebron. He's hardly as injury prone as people make him out to be. Look at his first three seasons.
when healthy accounts for nothing. is walton as good as shaq? because when healthy he was as good as shaq. lets rank him alongside shaq because the guy was a good player when he was healthy, makes perfect sense :hammerhead: .
look at wade's first three seasons? ok. 21 games missed, 5 games missed, 7 games missed. james averages 78 games per year since he arrived in the nba. wade has never played more than 77 games and averages 63 games per year.

In the past two he has only missed time due to coming back from a serious injury far too early in order to try and help his team in the playoffs.
:cry:

Also playoffs success? Did you see what Wade did in the playoffs in his rookie year? How about his second? Many thought Miami was destined for the finals before Wade was run down by the flu. Third year? Championship. As far as I can see, the advantage is with Wade here.
:roll: @ you mentioning wade and his 18 points in the '04 playoffs. lebron didn't make the playoffs in '04 or '05 so we can't compare those years. wade gets the advantage in '06, and james gets the advantage in '07.

Also I mentioned that Wade was the more efficient player. This takes into account everything on the court. Not something specific like turnovers where you simply chose a single statisical category to support Lebron. Efficiency on the other hand covers a players whole game.
james has been more efficient every year

[Chrono90]

We had some really great players in the 90's to think about it.

[Sir Charles]

We had some really great players in the 90's to think about it.

80s Even More...

[L.Kizzle]

Drexler is Gary's equal on the offensive end, but the gulf between them on the defensive end is canyonesque.
Um, what???

Drexler >>> GP in Offense
GP >>> Clyde in Defense

[big baller]

Stockton, Drexler, Scottie, Ewing, and DRob.

bro u gotta be kidding me....gary>pippen??? wat? pippen is way better than gary, hands down.

[72-10]

To the OP, that's a great list. The only things I would consider changing is Stockton over Ewing (I think pretty easily). The Glove could be considered for the 10 spot instead of Ewing but I don't think he earned it.

[big baller]

Gary Payton over Pippen. Pippen was overrated as hell.

show's how much u know about basketball....i bet u were not even alive to watch mj and pippen play TOGETHER. y do u think mj dident win in wasington? 1. because, clearly, he was old
2.because he dident have pippen.

[plowking]

show's how much u know about basketball....i bet u were not even alive to watch mj and pippen play TOGETHER. y do u think mj dident win in wasington? 1. because, clearly, he was old
2.because he dident have pippen.

Gary is better then Pippen though.

[EricForman]

Glad to see GP get love. I didn't think this many people would defend him on the list

[ForceOfNature]

My all-90's squad:

C - Hakeem Olajuwon
F - Karl Malone
F - Scottie Pippen
G - Michael Jordan
G - John Stockton
Shaquille O'Neal
Gary Payton
Charles Barkley
Grant Hill
Mitch Richmond
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson

There are four terrific centers on that squad, and I'm still leaving out some great ones of the 90's (Mourning, Mutombo, etc.). The 90's were filled with dominant centers.


why there is no Penny Hardway on the top 10 list?:confusedshrug:

If this were a "most popular players of the 90's" list, he'd be among the top 2 (with MJ). But this isn't, granted Anfernee was great but I don't think he should crack the top 10.

[guy]

show's how much u know about basketball....i bet u were not even alive to watch mj and pippen play TOGETHER. y do u think mj dident win in wasington? 1. because, clearly, he was old
2.because he dident have pippen.

No, its just cause he was old. I don't agree that GP>Pippen, but Pippen is overrated to an extent, specifically when people make comments like Jordan wouldn't have won anything without Pippen.

[TMac&Luther]

here is the official team:

C David Robinson
PF Karl Malone
SF Scottie Pippen
SG Michael Jordan
PG John Stockton

C Hakeem Olajuwon
PF Charles Barkley
SF Grant Hill
SG Clyde Drexler
PG Gary Payton

C Shaquille O'Neal
C Patrick Ewing

:roll: There is no way in hell Hakeem would be coming off the bench for Robinson. The Dream pulled his card and now David holds the inside of Hakeem's pocket when they are around each other. :hammerhead:

Let's put it this way....you replace Hakeem with David Robinson and Houston has zero championships. The fact that you've tried to put David over Hakeem twice in this thread is laughable to me. Hakeem went through every dominant center of the 90's on his way to his rings and got the better of every single one. That's something no other big man of the 90's can even think about saying. Hakeem's legacy of being the best big man of his era is solid and safe.

[MastahX]

Stockton was hands down x 10 the best PG in the league in the 90's. No question about it, no argument about it.

Jordan was the best player in the 90's, no question.

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of you were not even born or too young or too dumb to remember. Malone was also way better than most on that list.

Now go back and suck on your mom's teet

[Shep]

:roll: There is no way in hell Hakeem would be coming off the bench for Robinson. The Dream pulled his card and now David holds the inside of Hakeem's pocket when they are around each other. :hammerhead:

Let's put it this way....you replace Hakeem with David Robinson and Houston has zero championships. The fact that you've tried to put David over Hakeem twice in this thread is laughable to me. Hakeem went through every dominant center of the 90's on his way to his rings and got the better of every single one. That's something no other big man of the 90's can even think about saying. Hakeem's legacy of being the best big man of his era is solid and safe.
:roll: @ robinson would not win title's with olajuwon's rockets. robinson would've won a 'chip on the '92 rockets that didn't make the playoffs let alone the '94, or '95 teams. granted hakeem won 2 'chips and outplayed robinson in the playoffs, but this only makes it close, nothing more.

[TMac&Luther]

:roll: @ robinson would not win title's with olajuwon's rockets. robinson would've won a 'chip on the '92 rockets that didn't make the playoffs let alone the '94, or '95 teams. it close, granted hakeem won 2 'chips and outplayed robinson in the playoffs, but this only makesnothing more.

your a joke kid...the fact that you even have to put...."granted Hakeem won 2 'chips and outplayed robinson in the playoffs, but this only makesnothing more." shows how big of a absolute joke you are...please stop making me laugh my ass off. :roll: Honestly it's that funny. You really need to grow up and realize what the hell you're talking about.

Hakeem ran circles around your "hero" whether you want to believe that or not is up to you. For those of you that didn't witness it...Hakeem was MORE athletic....the BETTER defensive player....and the better OFFENSIVE PLAYER....so "SHEP", GTFO it.

and...

P.S.

like I said before, if you replaced Hakeem with Robinson....the Houston Rockets would still be looking for their first championship......(please tell me how I'm wrong "SHEP"..Oh I forgot, David sucked in the clutch)...Hakeem was one of the greatest clutch players of alltime....nobody can ever deny his playoff performances

[plowking]

:roll: @ robinson would not win title's with olajuwon's rockets. robinson would've won a 'chip on the '92 rockets that didn't make the playoffs let alone the '94, or '95 teams. granted hakeem won 2 'chips and outplayed robinson in the playoffs, but this only makes it close, nothing more.

Agree with TMac&Luther.

Also Wade>Lebron this decade. :violin:

[plowking]

BTW Shep, here is Wade and Lebrons head to head games:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=wadedw01&p2=jamesle01

Seems to me as if Wade has the edge there buddy. Wade is way ahead in defense, same on rebounds, shots a better clip, nearly same amount of points, while playing less minutes.

Do a per 36 minute stat for each and you'll see that Wade is ahead in most or if not close to equal in most categories.

[TMac&Luther]

Shep is a moron...:oldlol: (again please explain how Drob is better than Hakeem) :roll: ...sounds like a bitter jazz fan.:oldlol:

[Niquesports]

No, its just cause he was old. I don't agree that GP>Pippen, but Pippen is overrated to an extent, specifically when people make comments like Jordan wouldn't have won anything without Pippen.
Well He Didnt

[Shep]

your a joke kid
i have a joke kid? you're not making any sense here

the fact that you even have to put...."granted Hakeem won 2 'chips and outplayed robinson in the playoffs, but this only makesnothing more." shows how big of a absolute joke you are...
how big of a absolute joke i am? :roll: makesnothing more? :roll:
what i said was the truth. how does stating facts make someone a joke? :oldlol:

please stop making me laugh my ass off.
laughing at facts huh..what type of repressed loser laughs at facts :lol ..better yet, why would you want someone to stop you laughing?

Honestly it's that funny. You really need to grow up and realize what the hell you're talking about.
son, if i didn't know what i was talking about i would not post.

Hakeem ran circles around your "hero" whether you want to believe that or not is up to you. For those of you that didn't witness it...Hakeem was MORE athletic....the BETTER defensive player....and the better OFFENSIVE PLAYER....so "SHEP", GTFO it.
hakeem missed the playoffs with a roster better than robinson ever had as a number 1 option. hakeem couldn't make it to the nba finals with a top 3 power forward, and a top 2 shooting guard. 2 years later he couldn't make it out of the first round with a top 4 power forward and a top 3 small forward. david never was given the chance to shine with guys like avery johnson as the number 2 man on most of those spurs teams, yet, amazingly, he still led them to 55+ win seasons four out of six seasons. robinson was the clear cut second best player of the 90's.

like I said before, if you replaced Hakeem with Robinson....the Houston Rockets would still be looking for their first championship
and like i said before, robinson would've won a 'chip on the '92 rockets that didn't make the playoffs let alone the '94, or '95 teams.

......(please tell me how I'm wrong "SHEP"..Oh I forgot, David sucked in the clutch)...Hakeem was one of the greatest clutch players of alltime....nobody can ever deny his playoff performances
yeh, his 13/7 against the lakers in '99..nobody's going to deny that greatness :applause:

Agree with TMac&Luther.
:roll: that wouldn't surprise me

Also Wade>Lebron this decade.
thats funny, considering lebron>wade so far

Seems to me as if Wade has the edge there buddy. Wade is way ahead in defense, same on rebounds, shots a better clip, nearly same amount of points, while playing less minutes.
this head to head is irrelevant because they aren't matched up together, but i'll play along: minutes is irrelevant, james has an advantage in points, rebounds, assists, and turnovers, while wade has the advantage in steals, and blocks. seems like a close call, but wade probably missed 5 of miami/cleveland games due to injury, giving james the clear overall advantage.

Do a per 36 minute stat for each and you'll see that Wade is ahead in most or if not close to equal in most categories.
per 36 is a garbage stat

Shep is a moron... (again please explain how Drob is better than Hakeem)
again? why? i've done so on numerous occasions, you should have a clear picture as to why he's better by now

like a bitter jazz fan
sounds like a rockets homer

[plowking]

i have a joke kid? you're not making any sense here

how big of a absolute joke i am? :roll: makesnothing more? :roll:
what i said was the truth. how does stating facts make someone a joke? :oldlol:

laughing at facts huh..what type of repressed loser laughs at facts :lol ..better yet, why would you want someone to stop you laughing?

son, if i didn't know what i was talking about i would not post.

hakeem missed the playoffs with a roster better than robinson ever had as a number 1 option. hakeem couldn't make it to the nba finals with a top 3 power forward, and a top 2 shooting guard. 2 years later he couldn't make it out of the first round with a top 4 power forward and a top 3 small forward. david never was given the chance to shine with guys like avery johnson as the number 2 man on most of those spurs teams, yet, amazingly, he still led them to 55+ win seasons four out of six seasons. robinson was the clear cut second best player of the 90's.

and like i said before, robinson would've won a 'chip on the '92 rockets that didn't make the playoffs let alone the '94, or '95 teams.

yeh, his 13/7 against the lakers in '99..nobody's going to deny that greatness :applause:

:roll: that wouldn't surprise me

thats funny, considering lebron>wade so far

this head to head is irrelevant because they aren't matched up together, but i'll play along: minutes is irrelevant, james has an advantage in points, rebounds, assists, and turnovers, while wade has the advantage in steals, and blocks. seems like a close call, but wade probably missed 5 of miami/cleveland games due to injury, giving james the clear overall advantage.

per 36 is a garbage stat

again? why? i've done so on numerous occasions, you should have a clear picture as to why he's better by now

sounds like a rockets homer

Wait are you a Clevland fan?

How is it a garbage stat? If players are given more time on the court, they will produce more. Wade further proved he was the more efficient player in the Olympics. Averaging more points in 5 less minutes.

It's automatically a garbage stat if it hurts your arguament. It specifically shows what each player can do in a given amount of time.

Would Wilt have scored 50 points a game if he didn't average all 48 minutes of the game? What if he was restricted to the normal 36-38 minutes most stars play. He wouldn't have got near 50ppg.

[Shep]

Wait are you a Clevland fan?
no

How is it a garbage stat? If players are given more time on the court, they will produce more. Wade further proved he was the more efficient player in the Olympics. Averaging more points in 5 less minutes.
yes, and barkley proved he was better than jordan because of what he did in the '92 olympics :rolleyes: . it is a garbage stat because you play however long you can play. meaning if you get tired after 20 minutes and can't go no more, you would not be able to produce what you did in 20 minutes in 36 minutes. foul prone, injury prone, and old players is another example of why per 36 is junk. you can't possibly determine what a player would do if he played extra minutes and how this would affect his team, and his production.

It's automatically a garbage stat if it hurts your arguament. It specifically shows what each player can do in a given amount of time.
:oldlol: i've never been a fan of per36 so you won't see me arguing a point and using per36 to back it up. it specifically shows nothing, all it is is hearsay bs.

Would Wilt have scored 50 points a game if he didn't average all 48 minutes of the game? What if he was restricted to the normal 36-38 minutes most stars play. He wouldn't have got near 50ppg.
maybe true, maybe not true. i judge this by the fact that nobody else was physically capable of going all 48 minutes every night. punishing wilt by bringing his minutes down to compare to mere mortals would be senseless

[plowking]

no

yes, and barkley proved he was better than jordan because of what he did in the '92 olympics :rolleyes: . it is a garbage stat because you play however long you can play. meaning if you get tired after 20 minutes and can't go no more, you would not be able to produce what you did in 20 minutes in 36 minutes. foul prone, injury prone, and old players is another example of why per 36 is junk. you can't possibly determine what a player would do if he played extra minutes and how this would affect his team, and his production.

:oldlol: i've never been a fan of per36 so you won't see me arguing a point and using per36 to back it up. it specifically shows nothing, all it is is hearsay bs.

maybe true, maybe not true. i judge this by the fact that nobody else was physically capable of going all 48 minutes every night. punishing wilt by bringing his minutes down to compare to mere mortals would be senseless

Barkley didn't have rings over Jordan like Wade does Lebron.

Per 36 shows efficiency. Don't care whether you like it or not.

Wade would have been just as effective with more minutes in the Olympics. Same with the other members of the team.

Face it, similar stats, with Wade being the more successful and clutch player. Shows whos better this decade between the two.

[Sir Charles]

Barkley didn't have rings over Jordan like Wade does Lebron.

Per 36 shows efficiency. Don't care whether you like it or not.

Wade would have been just as effective with more minutes in the Olympics. Same with the other members of the team.

Face it, similar stats, with Wade being the more successful and clutch player. Shows whos better this decade between the two.

Strangley enough Barkley was not only the Best Player in the Barcelona Olympics of 1992 but also in the Atlanta Olympics of 1996 :confusedshrug: . Zone Defense is the worst way you can guard a player with extreame talent and fundamentals that can steal, rebound, pass, score and do 5 Positions in Single Motion.. Double Teaming a Prime Barkley was the Only way to slow him down. Put in SFs for Half of the time un till they get their 5th foul and put in PF-FCs and Cs for the other Half of the Time until they also get their 5th Foul or just Pray Alot :pimp: :applause: :roll:

[G-train]

here is the official team:

C David Robinson
PF Karl Malone
SF Scottie Pippen
SG Michael Jordan
PG John Stockton

C Hakeem Olajuwon
PF Charles Barkley
SF Grant Hill
SG Clyde Drexler
PG Gary Payton

C Shaquille O'Neal
C Patrick Ewing


D-Rob was an all time great centre, but prime Olajuwon did outplay him in 94 quite significantly.
To the point I would rank him higher on this list. If that series didnt exist, its pretty much equal. Unfortunately for D-Rob it does.

[Sir Charles]

1989-90/1995-96

C: Hakeem (David Robinson)
PF: Charles Barkley (Karl Malone)
SF: Scottie Pippen/Bird
SG: Michael Jordan (Clyde Drexler)
PG: Stockton/Magic

1996-97/1999-2000

C: Shaq (David Robinson/Hakeem)
PF: Karl Malone (Charles Barkley-Tim Duncan)
SF: Grant Hill (Scottie Pippen)
SG: Michael Jordan (Reggie Miller)
PG: Gary Payton (Jason Kidd)

That`s how it is...

[AItheAnswer3]

Strangley enough Barkley was not only the Best Player in the Barcelona Olympics of 1992 but also in the Atlanta Olympics of 1996 :confusedshrug: . Zone Defense is the worst way you can guard a player with extreame talent and fundamentals that can steal, rebound, pass, score and do 5 Positions in Single Motion.. Double Teaming a Prime Barkley was the Only way to slow him down. Put in SFs for Half of the time un till they get their 5th foul and put in PF-FCs and Cs for the other Half of the Time until they also get their 5th Foul or just Pray Alot :pimp: :applause: :roll:

Barkley is the best player to ever step foot on a NBA court and in the Olympics. Barkley is the GOAT hands down. Dude always dominated on both ends of the floor and is simply unguardable. Barkley also went coast-to-coast and was a beast while dribbling.:bowdown: :rockon: :cheers: :applause: :banana: :pimp:

[guy]

Well He Didnt

So? I don't hear people saying Russell didn't win without HOFers? Or Kareem didn't win without a top 2 PG of all-time? Or Magic didn't win without Kareem? Or Shaq didn't win without Kobe or Wade?

Its stupid logic. Its basically assuming that Jordan couldn't have won without Pippen, as if thats what would've happened if Pippen didn't exist. Its assuming that Jordan couldn't have won without someone else in Pippen's place. Like if Pippen didn't exist, the Bulls would've been the exact same just with a huge hole at SF. It doesn't take into account that when Jordan wasn't playing with Pippen, the rest of his team was significantly worse then the championship teams. And you don't hear it about other players. As if Jordan should be the only guy thats singled out for having a great sidekick.

[Shep]

Barkley didn't have rings over Jordan like Wade does Lebron.
what happens in the olympics means nothing when comparing players

Per 36 shows efficiency. Don't care whether you like it or not.
per36 shows nothing. don't care whether you do or don't care if i like it or not.

Wade would have been just as effective with more minutes in the Olympics. Same with the other members of the team.
already destroyed

Face it, similar stats, with Wade being the more successful and clutch player. Shows whos better this decade between the two.
no. james is the better player so far because of reasons already outlined by me, including games played, production, and consistant winning.

D-Rob was an all time great centre, but prime Olajuwon did outplay him in 94 quite significantly. To the point I would rank him higher on this list. If that series didnt exist, its pretty much equal. Unfortunately for D-Rob it does.
yes, olajuwon significantly outplayed robinson in the '95 western conference finals, but 1 series does not make up for a decade of robinson dominance, multiple olajuwon 40 game winning seasons, and not being able to win with multiple all-time greats on his roster. olajuwon's championship's only make it close.

[plowking]

what happens in the olympics means nothing when comparing players

per36 shows nothing. don't care whether you do or don't care if i like it or not.

already destroyed

no. james is the better player so far because of reasons already outlined by me, including games played, production, and consistant winning.

yes, olajuwon significantly outplayed robinson in the '95 western conference finals, but 1 series does not make up for a decade of robinson dominance, multiple olajuwon 40 game winning seasons, and not being able to win with multiple all-time greats on his roster. olajuwon's championship's only make it close.

Ok, once again you discard all my points.

Wade has achieved more this decade, with similar stats, more success in the playoffs, more dominant in playoffs.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

1) jordon
2) Hakeem
3/4) Malone/Robinson
5) Shaq
6/7/8) Barkley/Pippen/Duncan
9) Ewing
10) Stockton/Payton/Drexler/Mourning/Hardaway (both)

Duncan played just 2.5 seasons in the 90s, but imo he achieved enough to be included in the list.

[Shep]

Ok, once again you discard all my points.
there are no valid points when arguing wade's case against james in terms of all-decade team selection.

Wade has achieved more this decade, with similar stats, more success in the playoffs, more dominant in playoffs.
james has achieved more this decade, with 4 first team all-nba selections, playing in 95% of all games since day 1, improving his team 18 games as a rookie, better production, and more consistency, while having 4 legendary seasons compared with wade's 2.

[plowking]

there are no valid points when arguing wade's case against james in terms of all-decade team selection.

james has achieved more this decade, with 4 first team all-nba selections, playing in 95% of all games since day 1, improving his team 18 games as a rookie, better production, and more consistency, while having 4 legendary seasons compared with wade's 2.

What has he won? An Olympic Gold, that is all.

You mention Lebrons 4 nba first team selections, though Wade would be in a similar position if he didn't have the greatest player in the game at this time infront of him.

Consistency? Consistently playing poor in the playoffs? His last two playoff campaigns he shot below 42% in each of them. I'd hardly call that dominant, consistent or better then Wade.

[Shep]

What has he won? An Olympic Gold, that is all.
5 playoff series in the last 3 years, more than 15 games during a regular season

You mention Lebrons 4 nba first team selections, though Wade would be in a similar position if he didn't have the greatest player in the game at this time infront of him.
no he wouldn't. wade would be in a similar position if he wasn't in street clothes for half a season and winning 50 games constantly, instead of missing 30+ and winning 15

Consistency? Consistently playing poor in the playoffs? His last two playoff campaigns he shot below 42% in each of them. I'd hardly call that dominant, consistent or better then Wade.
he shot 42%? :roll: he also averaged 25/8/8, and 28/8/8 in his last two playoff campaigns. in wade's last two campaigns he won 15 games and got swept out of the first round :oldlol:

[JtotheIzzo]

Barkley is the best player to ever step foot on a NBA court and in the Olympics. Barkley is the GOAT hands down. Dude always dominated on both ends of the floor and is simply unguardable. Barkley also went coast-to-coast and was a beast while dribbling.:bowdown: :rockon: :cheers: :applause: :banana: :pimp:

I see you searched Charles on youtube and watched a couple of highlight reels.

[plowking]

5 playoff series in the last 3 years, more than 15 games during a regular season

no he wouldn't. wade would be in a similar position if he wasn't in street clothes for half a season and winning 50 games constantly, instead of missing 30+ and winning 15

he shot 42%? :roll: he also averaged 25/8/8, and 28/8/8 in his last two playoff campaigns. in wade's last two campaigns he won 15 games and got swept out of the first round :oldlol:

How is that a successful campaign?

For a player who shoots 48% in the regular season, you expect him to step up. He doesn't have to average better then 48%, though at least better stats with such a poor shooting percentage.

Iverson shoots 42% and is considered a team cancer. Lebron does it and is considered a great playoff performer? Double standards?

Lebron does not step up in the playoffs unlike Wade. Plus don't mention his 47 point game against Detroit, because that is one of the few times he's done anything. He usually has one big game every series that bring his numbers back up to half respectable.

Talking about legendary. How about Wade averageing somewhere around 75% from the field against the Pistons in the 2006 ECF? Furthermore backed up by his 35ppg, 9rpg performance against Dallas in a 6 game series, which is considered the most efficient and productive finals outing by any player ever in a finals series. Says something about the caliber of player Wade is.

Lebron has yet to achieve anything spectacular in this decade of basketball. Though I'm sure he will be the better player in the next decade, unless Wade is able to pull a few more championships and continue his dominance.

[plowking]

I see you searched Charles on youtube and watched a couple of highlight reels.

Another Charles fan, who posts Charles Barkley's all time stats and how he is up there with the greats is just what we need on insidehoops right now.

[AItheAnswer3]

I see you searched Charles on youtube and watched a couple of highlight reels.

I was obvioustly being sarcastic and mocking Sir Charles.

[Kiddlovesnets]

why am i not seeing Grant Hill in here? even in his rookie year (1994) he was already a top 20 player imo

Jason Kidd > Grant Hill

[guy]

Jason Kidd > Grant Hill

Not before Hill's injuries.

[Shep]

How is that a successful campaign?
easy. nobody expected them to beat detroit, and nobody expected them to take boston to 7 games. then you add the fact that he averaged 25/8/8, and 28/8/8 throughout those playoffs and you have a successful campaign in both years.

For a player who shoots 48% in the regular season, you expect him to step up. He doesn't have to average better then 48%, though at least better stats with such a poor shooting percentage.
yes, those extra 6 shots missed out of every 100 taken really is all that matters :roll:

Iverson shoots 42% and is considered a team cancer. Lebron does it and is considered a great playoff performer? Double standards?
who is he considered a team cancer by? not me, so this doesn't have a place in this conversation.

Lebron does not step up in the playoffs unlike Wade. Plus don't mention his 47 point game against Detroit, because that is one of the few times he's done anything. He usually has one big game every series that bring his numbers back up to half respectable.
you call 25/8/8 and 28/8/8 half respectable? :hammerhead: lebron averages 27.5/8/7.3 in the playoffs compared to wade's 25.3/5.3/6, so i don't know where you are getting this **** about lebron not stepping up, because if lebron doesn't step up wade doesn't show up.

Talking about legendary. How about Wade averageing somewhere around 75% from the field against the Pistons in the 2006 ECF? Furthermore backed up by his 35ppg, 9rpg performance against Dallas in a 6 game series, which is considered the most efficient and productive finals outing by any player ever in a finals series. Says something about the caliber of player Wade is.
:roll: somewhere around 75%? 61% is nowhere near 75%. all that says is about wade is that he had 1 nice run in the playoffs. where was he the last two years? riding the pine and leading his team to 15 wins and a first round sweep. meanwhile lebron is leading his team to the finals, and leading his team to within 6 points of eliminating the would be championship team in a game 7 on their floor.

Lebron has yet to achieve anything spectacular in this decade of basketball. Though I'm sure he will be the better player in the next decade, unless Wade is able to pull a few more championships and continue his dominance.
4 1st team all-nba = spectacular
4 legendary seasons = spectacular
leading a team full of scrubs to the finals = spectacular
averaging 27.2/7.4/7.2/2.2/.7
then 31.4/7/6.6/1.6/.8
then 27.3/6.7/6/1.6/.7
then 30/7.9/7.2/1.8/1.1 = spectacular
all this while playing in 95% of all games = spectacular
the list is endless

[72-10]

I was obvioustly being sarcastic and mocking Sir Charles.

Many ppl here appear to lack a sense of humor unfortunately.

[plowking]

easy. nobody expected them to beat detroit, and nobody expected them to take boston to 7 games. then you add the fact that he averaged 25/8/8, and 28/8/8 throughout those playoffs and you have a successful campaign in both years.

yes, those extra 6 shots missed out of every 100 taken really is all that matters :roll:

who is he considered a team cancer by? not me, so this doesn't have a place in this conversation.

you call 25/8/8 and 28/8/8 half respectable? :hammerhead: lebron averages 27.5/8/7.3 in the playoffs compared to wade's 25.3/5.3/6, so i don't know where you are getting this **** about lebron not stepping up, because if lebron doesn't step up wade doesn't show up.

:roll: somewhere around 75%? 61% is nowhere near 75%. all that says is about wade is that he had 1 nice run in the playoffs. where was he the last two years? riding the pine and leading his team to 15 wins and a first round sweep. meanwhile lebron is leading his team to the finals, and leading his team to within 6 points of eliminating the would be championship team in a game 7 on their floor.

4 1st team all-nba = spectacular
4 legendary seasons = spectacular
leading a team full of scrubs to the finals = spectacular
averaging 27.2/7.4/7.2/2.2/.7
then 31.4/7/6.6/1.6/.8
then 27.3/6.7/6/1.6/.7
then 30/7.9/7.2/1.8/1.1 = spectacular
all this while playing in 95% of all games = spectacular
the list is endless

Did you want to mention that Wade shots 48%, while Lebron shots 43%, Lebron plays 4 more minutes, and again is the better defender. Wade scores more efficiently and defends more efficiently. You said Lebron was the more efficient player, yet Wade is the one with better offensive and defensive efficiency.

Plus playoff success is measured by what you achieve in the playoffs, not simply your stats. Both Wade and James have certain advantages in different areas, though then you take the fact that Wade has a finals MVP, a championship, more playoff success, consistent performer in the playoffs, one more conference final appearance and it is evident of who the more successful player is.

Honestly how can you even be comparing the two in terms of playoff success when one has a championship and a finals MVP with some of the greatest numbers ever? I would really love to know.

[plowking]

easy. nobody expected them to beat detroit, and nobody expected them to take boston to 7 games. then you add the fact that he averaged 25/8/8, and 28/8/8 throughout those playoffs and you have a successful campaign in both years.

yes, those extra 6 shots missed out of every 100 taken really is all that matters :roll:

who is he considered a team cancer by? not me, so this doesn't have a place in this conversation.

you call 25/8/8 and 28/8/8 half respectable? :hammerhead: lebron averages 27.5/8/7.3 in the playoffs compared to wade's 25.3/5.3/6, so i don't know where you are getting this **** about lebron not stepping up, because if lebron doesn't step up wade doesn't show up.

:roll: somewhere around 75%? 61% is nowhere near 75%. all that says is about wade is that he had 1 nice run in the playoffs. where was he the last two years? riding the pine and leading his team to 15 wins and a first round sweep. meanwhile lebron is leading his team to the finals, and leading his team to within 6 points of eliminating the would be championship team in a game 7 on their floor.

4 1st team all-nba = spectacular
4 legendary seasons = spectacular
leading a team full of scrubs to the finals = spectacular
averaging 27.2/7.4/7.2/2.2/.7
then 31.4/7/6.6/1.6/.8
then 27.3/6.7/6/1.6/.7
then 30/7.9/7.2/1.8/1.1 = spectacular
all this while playing in 95% of all games = spectacular
the list is endless


Get off his *******. Scrubs? His teammates are the only reason that series against Boston went to 7 games. He has very good teammates.

The day or if Lebron ever does win a championship, the media and Lebron fans will make it sound as if he took a bunch of blind mice to the finals and reigned supreme.

[Shep]

Did you want to mention that Wade shots 48%, while Lebron shots 43%,
yes, because those 5 extra shots out of 100 make all the difference

Lebron plays 4 more minutes
thus proving he can go longer than wade

and again is the better defender
:roll:

Wade scores more efficiently
this is where your argument stops

defends more efficiently
:roll:

You said Lebron was the more efficient player, yet Wade is the one with better offensive and defensive efficiency.
check the efficiency rankings

Plus playoff success is measured by what you achieve in the playoffs, not simply your stats.
wow, i didn't know lebron hasn't ever won a playoff game, how silly of me :sleeping .

Both Wade and James have certain advantages in different areas, though then you take the fact that Wade has a finals MVP, a championship, more playoff success, consistent performer in the playoffs, one more conference final appearance and it is evident of who the more successful player is.
james has an advantage in almost every area except the one that says "tick here if you have shaquille o'neal as a teammate", but he definately has the advantage in the area that says "tick here if you couldn't win more than 15 games without that same shaquille o'neal". so you have to take into consideration how many games each player has played, how many seasons he played over 75 games in, how many legendary seasons he had, who does most with the roster they've got, who is the better performer in the playoffs, and how many first team all-nba selections he has and you've got an easy decision.

Honestly how can you even be comparing the two in terms of playoff success when one has a championship and a finals MVP with some of the greatest numbers ever? I would really love to know.
wade has a championship and finals mvp, yes. congratulations kanye wade. if he had played in 75+ games every year and won as many games as james has done, while putting up the same numbers for the other 3 years, his championship and finals mvp would be the difference between the two players. unfortunately for him he is nowhere near james in these categories, and therefore james is easily better when talking about all-decade prospects.

Get off his *******.
i'm too busy with your mom to even think about anyone else right now

Scrubs? His teammates are the only reason that series against Boston went to 7 games.
exactly, if he had good teammates boston would've went down in 5 or 6

He has very good teammates.
:roll:

The day or if Lebron ever does win a championship, the media and Lebron fans will make it sound as if he took a bunch of blind mice to the finals and reigned supreme.
i can't speak on behalf of the media, or lebron fans. i have no idea why you mentioned this, or what relevence this has here.

[plowking]

I think you are a lost cause if you are just another one of those people who think Wade's sucess is all due to Shaq. All you can do is laugh at the facts because you don't have an argument against it. You supply no facts.

The you go on to mention if he had good teammates they would have gone down in 5 or 6? You are just plain dense. How would a team of 3 stars go down in 5 or 6. That is a ridiculous statement.

Ask any player what they would rather want. A finals MVP and a championship as the number one guy, or just playoff success. Your answer lies there.

[plowking]

yes, because those 5 extra shots out of 100 make all the difference

thus proving he can go longer than wade

:roll:

this is where your argument stops

:roll:

check the efficiency rankings

wow, i didn't know lebron hasn't ever won a playoff game, how silly of me :sleeping .

james has an advantage in almost every area except the one that says "tick here if you have shaquille o'neal as a teammate", but he definately has the advantage in the area that says "tick here if you couldn't win more than 15 games without that same shaquille o'neal". so you have to take into consideration how many games each player has played, how many seasons he played over 75 games in, how many legendary seasons he had, who does most with the roster they've got, who is the better performer in the playoffs, and how many first team all-nba selections he has and you've got an easy decision.

wade has a championship and finals mvp, yes. congratulations kanye wade. if he had played in 75+ games every year and won as many games as james has done, while putting up the same numbers for the other 3 years, his championship and finals mvp would be the difference between the two players. unfortunately for him he is nowhere near james in these categories, and therefore james is easily better when talking about all-decade prospects.

i'm too busy with your mom to even think about anyone else right now
exactly, if he had good teammates boston would've went down in 5 or 6

:roll:

i can't speak on behalf of the media, or lebron fans. i have no idea why you mentioned this, or what relevence this has here.

It's obvious now that you are about 13 years old, and know nothing about basketball.

[Shep]

I think you are a lost cause if you are just another one of those people who think Wade's sucess is all due to Shaq.
no i'm not one of those people. i'm just pointing out that he had shaquille o'neal manning the middle instead of big zero. its a legit point, but some blind fan boy with "in wade we trust" under his screen name isn't going accept it is he :lol

All you can do is laugh at the facts because you don't have an argument against it.
facts? i thought they were jokes

You supply no facts.
you mustn't be reading any of my posts

The you go on to mention if he had good teammates they would have gone down in 5 or 6? You are just plain dense. How would a team of 3 stars go down in 5 or 6. That is a ridiculous statement.
first of all a team of 3 stars has gone down in 5 before, the 2005 suns are the most recent example of this. last of all the celtics are not a team of 3 stars, they are a team of 1 star.

Ask any player what they would rather want. A finals MVP and a championship as the number one guy, or just playoff success. Your answer lies there.
absolutely, all players want to win a championship, but they still want to be able to play full seasons after that championship. ask any player who they'd rather have as teammates between shaquille o'neal and some scrubs. just because a player wins a championship it doesn't mean that guy is better than every other player in the nba who does not win a championship.

It's obvious now that you are about 13 years old, and know nothing about basketball.
it was obvious to me that you were a mentally handicapped inbred since your first post in this thread

[plowking]

no i'm not one of those people. i'm just pointing out that he had shaquille o'neal manning the middle instead of big zero. its a legit point, but some blind fan boy with "in wade we trust" under his screen name isn't going accept it is he :lol

facts? i thought they were jokes

you mustn't be reading any of my posts

first of all a team of 3 stars has gone down in 5 before, the 2005 suns are the most recent example of this. last of all the celtics are not a team of 3 stars, they are a team of 1 star.

absolutely, all players want to win a championship, but they still want to be able to play full seasons after that championship. ask any player who they'd rather have as teammates between shaquille o'neal and some scrubs. just because a player wins a championship it doesn't mean that guy is better than every other player in the nba who does not win a championship.

it was obvious to me that you were a mentally handicapped inbred since your first post in this thread

Never said Wade will be the better player over their careers. Though this decade he has been.

[Horatio33]

1 Jordan
2 Hakeem
3 Shaq
4 Pippen
5 Hill
6 Barkley
7 Hardaway
8 Robinson
9 Kemp
10 Larry Johnson (Hornets Version)

[gabeh1018]

all i have to say on the matter is that the only real knock on wade thus far is the fact that his team won 15 games last year....


but other than that I don't really care who is better....

they both beast in the NBA

[Shep]

Never said Wade will be the better player over their careers. Though this decade he has been.
nobody is talking about careers here, i'm talking about impact during this decade - which lebron clearly has the advantage over wade

[plowking]

nobody is talking about careers here, i'm talking about impact during this decade - which lebron clearly has the advantage over wade

Of course he does, with his 0 titles.

He clearly has dominated this era with winning absolutely nothing.

[Shep]

Of course he does, with his 0 titles.

He clearly has dominated this era with winning absolutely nothing.
yes, because 1 title automatically makes him the better player :roll: . wade's had 2 legendary seasons, besides this he is trash compared with lebron.

[plowking]

yes, because 1 title automatically makes him the better player :roll: . wade's had 2 legendary seasons, besides this he is trash compared with lebron.

Yes, you are completely right. He was trash in his other two seasons. :roll:
Funny, if Wade is trash and he was able to win a title, what does that make Lebron, who is incapable of winning one?

You'd think being the more dominant player he'd be able to lead his team to victory in the finals.

[Shep]

Yes, you are completely right. He was trash in his other two seasons.
trash compared with 4 legendary lebron seasons. trash when you look at how many games he missed and his teams records.

Funny, if Wade is trash and he was able to win a title, what does that make Lebron, who is incapable of winning one?
this statement is trash. i said wade had trash seasons other than his two legendary seasons ('05, '06), when comparing them to lebron's 4 legendary seasons.

You'd think being the more dominant player he'd be able to lead his team to victory in the finals.
when your second best player averaged 1 point and your third best player averages less than 8 you have no chance of winning in the finals

[plowking]

trash compared with 4 legendary lebron seasons. trash when you look at how many games he missed and his teams records.

this statement is trash. i said wade had trash seasons other than his two legendary seasons ('05, '06), when comparing them to lebron's 4 legendary seasons.

when your second best player averaged 1 point and your third best player averages less than 8 you have no chance of winning in the finals

What about your supposed star averaging 6 turnovers? Only 22 ppg on 35.5%?

Lebrons Finals appearance is not even good enough to be called trash compared to Wade's finals appearance.

Wade is a better player in the playoffs.

[Mr. Bryant]

all i have to say on the matter is that the only real knock on wade thus far is the fact that his team won 15 games last year....


but other than that I don't really care who is better....

they both beast in the NBA

15 wins is beasting now? :oldlol:

[Shep]

What about your supposed star averaging 6 turnovers? Only 22 ppg on 35.5%?
with your second and third best scorers combining for 9 points per game you obviously are not getting the help you need to be successful, and you'd naturally try to do too much, add this to the fact that the spurs concentrated their entire defensive structure around stopping james due to the cavs having no other offensive options and the result is high turnovers and low shooting percentages. james also averaged 7 rebounds and 7 assists per game that series.

Lebrons Finals appearance is not even good enough to be called trash compared to Wade's finals appearance.
if 22/7/7 isn't good enough to be called trash 99.99% of nba finals players weren't good enough to be called trash. yes wade had a fantastic finals, but that is six games, we are talking about a decade's worth of games here. if wade went to the finals every year and played every game this would be a worth while discussion, unfortunately he is nowhere near james in the context of a decades worth of play.

Wade is a better player in the playoffs.
:lol

[plowking]

with your second and third best scorers combining for 9 points per game you obviously are not getting the help you need to be successful, and you'd naturally try to do too much, add this to the fact that the spurs concentrated their entire defensive structure around stopping james due to the cavs having no other offensive options and the result is high turnovers and low shooting percentages. james also averaged 7 rebounds and 7 assists per game that series.

if 22/7/7 isn't good enough to be called trash 99.99% of nba finals players weren't good enough to be called trash. yes wade had a fantastic finals, but that is six games, we are talking about a decade's worth of games here. if wade went to the finals every year and played every game this would be a worth while discussion, unfortunately he is nowhere near james in the context of a decades worth of play.

:lol

Same can be applied to Wade last season. Where was his help? Shaq was no where to be seen. Neither were any of his teammates. There is always a double standard for Lebron. It can go his way, but never against him with you.

Furthermore last season, Wade was the only player the opposing team had to look after. So naturally Wade was getting double and on some occasions triple teamed forcing more turnovers.

:violin:

[lilojmayo]

Kobe should be on this list

[Shep]

Same can be applied to Wade last season. Where was his help? Shaq was no where to be seen. Neither were any of his teammates. There is always a double standard for Lebron. It can go his way, but never against him with you.
did wade's next best two scorers combine for 8 points per game? marion averaged 14.3, o'neal 14.2, davis 13.8, and haslem 12. and this gets you 15 wins? pathetic.

Furthermore last season, Wade was the only player the opposing team had to look after. So naturally Wade was getting double and on some occasions triple teamed forcing more turnovers.
this is what james has had to put up with for his entire career thus far, and he's never averaged more than 3.5 turnovers per game in a season, let alone the pititful 4.4 that wade averaged last year.

[plowking]

did wade's next best two scorers combine for 8 points per game? marion averaged 14.3, o'neal 14.2, davis 13.8, and haslem 12. and this gets you 15 wins? pathetic.

this is what james has had to put up with for his entire career thus far, and he's never averaged more than 3.5 turnovers per game in a season, let alone the pititful 4.4 that wade averaged last year.

Drew Gooden averaged 13 points and Gibson added 11. You also had Pavlovic add 10ppg.


His entire career? Do you watch Clevland or Miami games?

[Shep]

Drew Gooden averaged 13 points and Gibson added 11. You also had Pavlovic add 10ppg.


His entire career? Do you watch Clevland or Miami games?
gooden and gibson weren't in their top 3 players. hughes and ilgauskas were and they combined for 8 points.

yes his entire career. do you watch any nba games?

[plowking]

gooden and gibson weren't in their top 3 players. hughes and ilgauskas were and they combined for 8 points.

yes his entire career. do you watch any nba games?

So now it matters where the points are coming from? Gooden was getting 13 off 50% shooting, unlike Lebron who was shooting at 36%.

You've watched his entire career, yet you say you are not a Clevland or Lebron fan?

[Shep]

So now it matters where the points are coming from?
yes. other players may score more but they won't have the same impact on opposition defenses that your second and third best players would if they were on their games

Gooden was getting 13 off 50% shooting, unlike Lebron who was shooting at 36%.
pathetic statement. wade was getting 4.4 turnovers per game last year, unlike ricky davis, who was getting only 2.3

You've watched his entire career, yet you say you are not a Clevland or Lebron fan?
this is correct

[plowking]

I wasn't saying Gooden was doing a better job then Lebron, yet you took it like that. I was just showing his production on the court.

Points are points. They have the same impact. The fact that your third and fourth options are scoring is a better sign. You expect your first and second options to improve normally during the series. Though Lebron wasn't able to step up.

http://www.nba.com/media/heat/wade7_300_060620.jpg

[plowking]

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

BTW, there is some reading for you, just to show you how efficient Wade is in the playoffs and specifically in the finals against Dallas.

[Shep]

I wasn't saying Gooden was doing a better job then Lebron, yet you took it like that. I was just showing his production on the court.
i am aware of his production on the court. gooden was also not in the cavaliers top 3 players so his 12 points meant little.

Points are points. They have the same impact. The fact that your third and fourth options are scoring is a better sign. You expect your first and second options to improve normally during the series. Though Lebron wasn't able to step up.
they don't have the same impact. if your second and third best players are firing it means that the pressure is eased off lebron and the defense of the spurs now has other people to stop instead of focusing entirely on stopping him. lebron did all that he could, providing his 22/7/7

[Shep]

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

BTW, there is some reading for you, just to show you how efficient Wade is in the playoffs and specifically in the finals against Dallas.
a hollinger article? :roll: an article that states wades finals was better than shaq's? obviously wade fanboy's are the only people that take this **** serious.

[plowking]

a hollinger article? :roll: an article that states wades finals was better than shaq's? obviously wade fanboy's are the only people that take this **** serious.

I never said he was better. I said more efficient.

http://www.nba.com/media/heat/wade7_300_060620.jpg

[Shep]

I never said he was better. I said more efficient.
shut the **** up

[plowking]

shut the **** up

:roll:

You have so many flaws and double standards for Lebron in your arguaments.

http://www.nba.com/media/heat/wade7_300_060620.jpg

[Shep]

You have so many flaws and double standards for Lebron in your arguaments.
that sentence is the total opposite of reality and you know it. if there was no '09 the argument would be who had the better decade, carmelo anthony or dwyane wade? comparing lebron with wade is like comparing larry bird to george gervin in the 80's

[Shep]

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/200702220938.jpg
http://espn.go.com/photo/2007/0221/nba_ap_wade_275.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/keith_potter/d-wade1.jpg

[Shep]

http://www.21stcenturypaladin.com/pics/2006/06/dwade.jpg

[plowking]

that sentence is the total opposite of reality and you know it. if there was no '09 the argument would be who had the better decade, carmelo anthony or dwyane wade? comparing lebron with wade is like comparing larry bird to george gervin in the 80's

Right, because Lebron was as accomplished as Bird was then? Good stuff champ.

[plowking]

http://www.21stcenturypaladin.com/pics/2006/06/dwade.jpg

You a Dallas fan?

Come on, I want to find out where this general hate is coming from.

Kobe fanboy?

[plowking]

http://www.spurschick.com/lebroom.jpg

[plowking]

Funny how the only negative pictures you can find of Wade are because of injury. Don't know how exactly you can find that funny, but sure, everyone is different.

Then you post one of him in the finals which he won and averaged some of the most amazing numbers ever? You a Wade fan now or is that just a bad attempt of trying to bring him down? It's okay, you tried.

[Shep]

Right, because Lebron was as accomplished as Bird was then? Good stuff champ.
no, he was as close to bird as wade was to gervin

You a Dallas fan?

Come on, I want to find out where this general hate is coming from.

Kobe fanboy?
neither. i'm not hating, but pointing out facts. although you are slowly starting to make me hate wade
http://nbcsportsmedia1.msnbc.com/j/apmegasports/200704051953716296225-pf.widec.jpg

[Shep]

Funny how the only negative pictures you can find of Wade are because of injury. Don't know how exactly you can find that funny, but sure, everyone is different.
you continue to post pics of his rings - something positive about what he has done. i post something negative - he's always injured. makes perfect sense.

Then you post one of him in the finals which he won and averaged some of the most amazing numbers ever? You a Wade fan now or is that just a bad attempt of trying to bring him down? It's okay, you tried.
silly child. in the pic he was shooting a free throw. got a short memory? its funny how you remember the numbers he averaged but not how he got them.

[plowking]

no, he was as close to bird as wade was to gervin

neither. i'm not hating, but pointing out facts. although you are slowly starting to make me hate wade
http://nbcsportsmedia1.msnbc.com/j/apmegasports/200704051953716296225-pf.widec.jpg

I'm simply stating my point of view.

Most people who say they are starting to develop a hate for a player already had a predetermined opinion of the player.

[plowking]

you continue to post pics of his rings - something positive about what he has done. i post something negative - he's always injured. makes perfect sense.

silly child. in the pic he was shooting a free throw. got a short memory? its funny how you remember the numbers he averaged but not how he got them.

He got them driving to the hoop and attacking the basket. Not letting the defense determine his offense.

[Shep]

I'm simply stating my point of view.

Most people who say they are starting to develop a hate for a player already had a predetermined opinion of the player.
not really, well, not in this case :D

[Shep]

He got them driving to the hoop and attacking the basket. Not letting the defense determine his offense.
yeh, blowing by those all defensive team members like..uh..jason terry?

[plowking]

yeh, blowing by those all defensive team members like..uh..jason terry?

Josh Howard took his turns and was also not very effective.

Well we obviously aren't going to change each others mind, so lets agree to disagree and let this thread die.

[Shep]

Josh Howard took his turns and was also not very effective.

Well we obviously aren't going to change each others mind, so lets agree to disagree and let this thread die.
if you agree to be wrong thats fine by me. consider it dead.

[plowking]

if you agree to be wrong thats fine by me. consider it dead.

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore, though I sure as hell am standing by my points.

[Shep]

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore, though I sure as hell am standing by my points.
points? what points? all you made were jokes.

[plowking]

points? what points? all you made were jokes.

They were funny though, right?

I particularly liked the Lebroom one.

[Shep]

They were funny though, right?

I particularly liked the Lebroom one.
yeh that lebroom pic was funny, but the funniest part was when you said wade was ranked higher in terms of all-decade team selection.

[plowking]

yeh that lebroom pic was funny, but the funniest part was when you said wade was ranked higher in terms of all-decade team selection.

Well now you agree with me. Good to know. Though the Wade part I don't agree with you.

So its good to know you came to your senses and realised the truth.

[Shep]

Well now you agree with me. Good to know. Though the Wade part I don't agree with you.

So its good to know you came to your senses and realised the truth.
realised the truth? :oldlol: i've always known the truth: lebron is better than wade

[plowking]

realised the truth? :oldlol: i've always known the truth: lebron is better than wade

Not this era.

[plowking]

In your list of best 90's players you have David Robinson above Hakeem. How'd you work that one out, chump?

[Shep]

Not this era.
this decade. no contest.

In your list of best 90's players you have David Robinson above Hakeem. How'd you work that one out, chump?
chump? who are you referring to here?

[plowking]

How about answering the question.

[Shep]

- robinson was less injury prone than olajuwon, with olajuwon missing significant time 5 out of 10 years, compared to robinsons 2 out of 10.

- robinson always did the most with what he was given (avery johnson as your second best player?), compared to olajuwon having barkley and drexler and not making the finals, or having barkley and pippen and not making it past the first round

- olajuwon had seasons where he missed the playoffs, and won only 41 games with rosters that were no worse than robinson ever had

[guy]

- robinson was less injury prone than olajuwon, with olajuwon missing significant time 5 out of 10 years, compared to robinsons 2 out of 10.

- robinson always did the most with what he was given (avery johnson as your second best player?), compared to olajuwon having barkley and drexler and not making the finals, or having barkley and pippen and not making it past the first round

- olajuwon had seasons where he missed the playoffs, and won only 41 games with rosters that were no worse than robinson ever had

1. Neither were injury prone so that doesn't matter. In fact, Hakeem played 689 games in the 90s, while Robinson played 685.

2. This is funny. Hakeem won titles with much less help then Robinson did. In fact when Robinson won titles, HE WAS THE HELP. From 90-95, the help really wasn't that much different for the two. Neither supporting cast were that great. Hakeem did better though, and outplayed Robinson badly in his MVP year.

From that point on, Hakeem lost in the 2nd round, went to WCF with Barkley and Drexler, lost in the first round for the next 2 years. But what do you expect with those teams? They were all old as hell, Hakeem included. Those teams were stacked by names, not by ability. And they lost to other great teams that year that had their own superstars, like the Jazz and Lakers. On the other hand, Robinson lost in the 2nd round, MISSED A WHOLE YEAR, lost in the 2nd round, and then won a title as a 2nd fiddle. I really don't see much of a difference, especially when this part of their careers really shouldn't hold as much weight since they were past their primes.

3. The Rockets missed the playoffs in 1 year of the 90s. BIG DEAL. I would probably say Hakeem's 2 titles as the MAN with 1 playoffs missed > Robinson's 1 title as a 2nd fiddle with no playoffs missed.

I'm not going to say its not close, but Hakeem was clearly better then Robinson. In the signficant categories, Hakeem was better at everything.

Plowking - I'll agree with Shep that Lebron is better then Wade. The main difference Wade has a title and Lebron doesn't is because of the teams they play on. If Lebron had the team Wade had from 05-07, most notably Shaq, I find it hard to believe that Lebron wouldn't have a title by now, infact I would be surprised if he didn't have multiple titles by now. And I'm sure Lebron would've led last year's Heat to more then 15 wins.

[Shep]

1. Neither were injury prone so that doesn't matter. In fact, Hakeem played 689 games in the 90s, while Robinson played 685.
total games mean very little when you think about it. for example: if a player misses a whole season, but averages 80 games per year for the other 9 years of the decade he hurts his team much less than the guy who misses 10 games per year. so it does matter.

2. This is funny. Hakeem won titles with much less help then Robinson did. In fact when Robinson won titles, HE WAS THE HELP. From 90-95, the help really wasn't that much different for the two. Neither supporting cast were that great. Hakeem did better though, and outplayed Robinson badly in his MVP year.
:oldlol: . olajuwon missed the playoffs and won 40 games on separate occasions with rosters that would've alteast made the finals with david robinson manning the middle.

From that point on, Hakeem lost in the 2nd round, went to WCF with Barkley and Drexler, lost in the first round for the next 2 years. But what do you expect with those teams? They were all old as hell, Hakeem included. Those teams were stacked by names, not by ability. And they lost to other great teams that year that had their own superstars, like the Jazz and Lakers.
what did i expect with the '97 rockets? what everyone else expected: to face the bulls in the finals. you're talking about a team that went 57-25 with their second best player missing 29 games and their third best missing 20. 2nd best center, 3rd best power forward, 2nd best shooting guard. a top 4 player in olajuwon, another superstar in charles barkley, and another star in clyde drexler. the best trio in the nba. and this team does not make the finals? laughable.

On the other hand, Robinson lost in the 2nd round, MISSED A WHOLE YEAR, lost in the 2nd round, and then won a title as a 2nd fiddle. I really don't see much of a difference, especially when this part of their careers really shouldn't hold as much weight since they were past their primes.
the difference was that robinson didn't have any help before duncan arrived, where as olajuwon had help throughout.

3. The Rockets missed the playoffs in 1 year of the 90s. BIG DEAL. I would probably say Hakeem's 2 titles as the MAN with 1 playoffs missed > Robinson's 1 title as a 2nd fiddle with no playoffs missed.
yeh, but then you look at things like olajuwon's teammates always > robinson's teammates, missed games, number of years as the leagues best player, and doing most with what you've got, and robinson comes out on top.

I'm not going to say its not close, but Hakeem was clearly better then Robinson. In the signficant categories, Hakeem was better at everything.
:lol

[Artillery]

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2008/09/my-21-gun-salute-to-admiral.html

If there's one truly great player that never seems to get his due, it's David Robinson. That lack of appreciation always seems to come down to two sticking points. First, he never won a championship without Tim Duncan. (So what? Magic never won one without Kareem, Larry never won without Parish and McHale, Michael never won without Scotty, Kobe never won without Shaq, etc.) Second, and even more damning, Hakeem Olajuwon dominated him during the 1995 Western Conference Finals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0)...right after Robinson received the regular season MVP award.

I hate that so much of the general perception about Robinson and his place in history is defined by his performance in a single playoff series. Yes, Olajuwon thorougly outplayed him, but Hakeem was absolutely on fire throughout those playoffs. (He also had his way in the Finals against Shaq, who it should be noted was second in MVP voting that season (http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1995.html#mvp).) Moreover, the Rockets were peaking as a team at the same time: They rolled over a 60-win team (the Jazz), a 59-win team (the Suns), a 60-win team (the Spurs) and a 57-win team (the Magic). That was their "Never underestimate the heart of a champion" season, and what happened that May was much bigger than Olajuwon versus Robinson. And as well as Hakeem played, it's not like The Admiral just rolled over and died; he averaged nearly 24 points, 12 rebounds and over 2 blocks per game in what was considererd his most infamous playoff failure. I don't know abouat you, but I wish I could fail that well.

And anyway, the Hakeem comparisons are unfair. Playoff performances, however good or bad, are only one small sample of a much larger career experiment. After all, that wasn't the first or last time an MVP has been gunned down in a one-on-one matchup during the playoffs. Larry Bird outplayed Dr. J (the MVP) in the 1981 Eastern Conference Finals. Kevin Johnson upended Magic Johnson (the MVP) in the 1990 Western Conference Semifinals. Paul Pierce outperformed Kobe Bryant (the MVP) in this year's Finals. Those losses have to be put into perspective. As such, take a look at the Olajuwon versus Robinson head-to-head numbers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=robinda01) during their 42 regular season meetings: The stats are nearly identical. Except the most important stat, that is: Robinson's team won 30 of those games compared to 12 for Hakeem's team. That's a pretty overwhelming margin.

I also don't think that Robinson should be defined solely by his performances against Hakeem. This guy's accomplishments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Robinson_(basketball)#Career_awards.2Faccomp lishments) can stand beside all but a few players in NBA history. The man could put the ball in the hole: He led the league in scoring in 1993-94 and is one of only five players to have ever scored more than 70 points in a single game (with 71 points against the Los Angeles Clippers on April 24, 1994 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199404240LAC.html). He is one of only four players to have recorded a quadruple-double (with 34 points, 10 rebounds, 10 assists and 10 blocks against the Detroit Pistons on February 17, 1994 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199402170SAS.html)). In 1991-92, he became just the third player to have ever ranked among the league's top 10 in five statistical categories (http://www.nba.com/history/players/robinson_bio.html), joining Cliff Hagan (1959-60) and Larry Bird (1985-86) -- Robinson was seventh in scoring (23.2 ppg), fourth in rebounding (12.2 rpg), first in blocks (4.49 per game), fifth in steals (2.32 per game) and seventh in field-goal percentage (.551). That achievement also made him the first player to ever rank among the top five in rebounding, blocks and steals in a single season. And finally, he's also the only player in NBA history to win the Rebounding, Blocked Shots, and Scoring Titles and Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year and MVP.

And that's the thing about Robinson: His basketball existence wasn't defined by any one thing. He did it all. No, he didn't have the killer instinct that's associated with many of the all-time greats. He wasn't the type of player who could (or was inclined to) take over offensively whenever and against whomever he wanted (he relied mostly on drives to the hoop and face-up jumpers). But in terms of playing the game to the best of his abilities and contributing in every possible phase of the game, Robinson has few peers. This fact is highlighted by his Player Efficiency Ranking (PER) numbers. He is currently third all-time (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html) (behind Michael Jordan and Shaq) with a career number of 26.18...despite his last few "off" seasons when he willingly deferred to Tim Duncan. He led the league in PER for three consecutive seasons, 1993-94 (30.7), 1994-95 (29.1) and 1995-96 (29.4). He also ranked second in 1991-92 (27.5), and third in 1990-91 (27.4), 1997-98 (27.8) and 1998-99 (24.9). He was still ranked as high as tenth in 2000-01 (23.7). To provide you with a little perspective, Kobe Bryant -- who is widely considered the most well-rounded player in the game today -- currently ranks 17th on the all-time list (23.57), and he has never finished higher than third in PER for a single season.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting PER is a definitive indicator of individual greatness. However, it does seem to genuinely reflect a player's overall contributions in several different areas. So I guess the point I'm trying to make about Robinson is that his greatness wasn't about winning one-on-one matchups, or scoring at will in clutch situations. He was about playing the game the way it's supposed to be played, on both ends of the court. And, based on how he did that, The Admiral truly should be considered one of the greatest of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FInsapjeY_M

[guy]

total games mean very little when you think about it. for example: if a player misses a whole season, but averages 80 games per year for the other 9 years of the decade he hurts his team much less than the guy who misses 10 games per year. so it does matter.

Ummm, I wouldn't say that, cause when a player misses a whole season, that season is basically dead, while the guy that only misses 10 games per year still gives his team a chance. I get what you're saying but this is an irrelevant point anyway. Neither were injury prone, so it really doesn't matter, so what's the point of comparing? Sure Robinson was more durable, but its not like Hakeem was not durable at all. It is not like the Lebron-Wade comparison, where durability is a huge difference.



:oldlol: . olajuwon missed the playoffs and won 40 games on separate occasions with rosters that would've alteast made the finals with david robinson manning the middle.

LOL. Really? Don't even try to compare what Hakeem did in the playoffs to what Robinson did. Put Robinson on the Rockets and Hakeem on the Spurs. Robinson would not bring the likes of Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, and Sam Cassell to the Finals in 94, and if he did they wouldn't have beaten the Knicks. They wouldn't have been able overcome adversity, like they did with Hakeem coming back from 0-2 going on the road againt the Suns in 94, coming back in the Finals down 3-2 against the Knicks, coming back from down 3-1 against the Suns in 95, and winning every series without HCA in 95 and SWEEPING the best team in the East. Robinson would've just rolled over and died if he was in the same situation. The reason being that Robinson wasn't nearly the playoff performer Hakeem was, infact he was a big softie that lacked a killer instinct. The Rockets in those years NEEDED Hakeem to have all-time great performances for them to win titles. They would've needed the same thing from Robinson but he wouldn't have been able to cause he just wasn't a great playoff performer. I'll admit that Hakeem on the Spurs in 94 probably wouldn't have done much, but Hakeem on the Spurs with the likes of Dennis Rodman, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliot, Chuck Person, and Vinny Del Negro in 95 would've won a championship. If these hypothetical Rockets and Spurs faced each other, it would be the same outcome with Hakeem's team coming out on top, cause the difference wasn't in the supporting cast, it was in the leaders of those teams.



what did i expect with the '97 rockets? what everyone else expected: to face the bulls in the finals. you're talking about a team that went 57-25 with their second best player missing 29 games and their third best missing 20. 2nd best center, 3rd best power forward, 2nd best shooting guard. a top 4 player in olajuwon, another superstar in charles barkley, and another star in clyde drexler. the best trio in the nba. and this team does not make the finals? laughable.

I wasn't talking about the 97 Rockets specifically, but the 97-99 Rockets in general. I thought they should've won that series too, but it really is not laughable when you look at who they lost to that year. The Jazz had the best record in the West, had their own 2 all-time greats who were the best PF and best PG, were having their best year ever, and had the MVP who was having his best year ever. I wouldn't call that an upset.



the difference was that robinson didn't have any help before duncan arrived, where as olajuwon had help throughout.

He had help in 95. Robinson probably wouldn't have won a title with better help anyway cause he didn't step his game up in the playoffs.

And the point about Duncan was that he was equal or better then Robinson in his rookie year, and surpassed him in his second year. Robinson was 32-33 years old. There is no way a 21-22 year-old Duncan would be better then a 32-33 year-old Hakeem, who was still in the prime of his career at that time. And Hakeem by that age also had played more games in his career through that age then Robinson did. I'm sure Robinson's decline by that time had mostly to do with his 97 injury, but the reason I'm bringing this up is cause it shows that Hakeem's injuries didn't affect him like Robinson's injuries did, which means that Hakeem wasn't much less durable then Robinson, if less durable at all.



yeh, but then you look at things like olajuwon's teammates always > robinson's teammates, missed games, number of years as the leagues best player, and doing most with what you've got, and robinson comes out on top.

Number of years as the league's best player? Hakeem-2, Robinson-0. Oh wait, you think Robinson was the best player of league just about every year, even better then Jordan, which is ridiculous by the way.



:lol

Better scorer, better rebounder, better defender, better playoff perfomer. Maybe they are equal in those categories during the regular season, but in the regular season + playoffs, Hakeem is better cause he stepped up his game, Robinson didn't.

[Shep]

Ummm, I wouldn't say that, cause when a player misses a whole season, that season is basically dead, while the guy that only misses 10 games per year still gives his team a chance. I get what you're saying but this is an irrelevant point anyway. Neither were injury prone, so it really doesn't matter, so what's the point of comparing? Sure Robinson was more durable, but its not like Hakeem was not durable at all. It is not like the Lebron-Wade comparison, where durability is a huge difference.
durability is an definately an issue here, because like i said before: olajuwon missed significant time 5 out of 10 years, robinson only 2 out of 10.

LOL. Really? Don't even try to compare what Hakeem did in the playoffs to what Robinson did. Put Robinson on the Rockets and Hakeem on the Spurs. Robinson would not bring the likes of Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, and Sam Cassell to the Finals in 94, and if he did they wouldn't have beaten the Knicks. They wouldn't have been able overcome adversity, like they did with Hakeem coming back from 0-2 going on the road againt the Suns in 94, coming back in the Finals down 3-2 against the Knicks, coming back from down 3-1 against the Suns in 95, and winning every series without HCA in 95 and SWEEPING the best team in the East. Robinson would've just rolled over and died if he was in the same situation. The reason being that Robinson wasn't nearly the playoff performer Hakeem was, infact he was a big softie that lacked a killer instinct. The Rockets in those years NEEDED Hakeem to have all-time great performances for them to win titles. They would've needed the same thing from Robinson but he wouldn't have been able to cause he just wasn't a great playoff performer. I'll admit that Hakeem on the Spurs in 94 probably wouldn't have done much, but Hakeem on the Spurs with the likes of Dennis Rodman, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliot, Chuck Person, and Vinny Del Negro in 95 would've won a championship. If these hypothetical Rockets and Spurs faced each other, it would be the same outcome with Hakeem's team coming out on top, cause the difference wasn't in the supporting cast, it was in the leaders of those teams.
all you need to do is look at how their respective teammates played when not playing alongside either player to get a good idea of their true capabilities. lets look at david robinsons teammates:
avery johnson (the second best player on most of those spurs rosters) - nbdl type talent, journeyman, wouldn't be in the league if he didn't play with robinson, seattle didn't want him after 96 games, denver didn't want him after 21 games, houston didn't want him after 49 games, golden state didn't want him after 82 games. averages a pathetic 10.9ppg, and 5.3apg as a full time starting point guard for the warriors. in only 2 years robinson transformed this schmuck into one of the best 5 point guards in the nba.
sean elliott (the third best player on most of those spurs rosters) - like johnson, elliott played 1 season away from the spurs, in detroit, and failed dismally. his ppg dropped 5 per game despite playing on the worst team in the league - truly showing what he was capable of without robinson
low lets take a look at olajuwons teammates:
kenny smith - proven point guard in the nba, has shown he can play without a dominant other, has averaged 17 points and 8 assists per game and is a good three point shooter
otis thorpe - once again has proved to be a worthy starter elsewhere, has averaged 21/10

surround robinson with proven players like this and you would no doubt get multiple championships, and i'm not even mentioning guys like sampson, drexler, barkley, or pippen

I wasn't talking about the 97 Rockets specifically, but the 97-99 Rockets in general. I thought they should've won that series too, but it really is not laughable when you look at who they lost to that year. The Jazz had the best record in the West, had their own 2 all-time greats who were the best PF and best PG, were having their best year ever, and had the MVP who was having his best year ever. I wouldn't call that an upset.
first of all stockton wasn't the best point guard in the nba in '97, infact he wasn't even top two. second of all the jazz only had a better record because the rockets superstars had spent significant time injured, otherwise the rockets would've easily eclipsed the jazz. and third of all, the rockets big 3 played in all 6 games, so there was no excuses. olajuwon's point production matching that of greg ostertag while getting outrebounded by the same man in game 6 had a huge bearing on the outcome aswell.

He had help in 95. Robinson probably wouldn't have won a title with better help anyway cause he didn't step his game up in the playoffs.
:lol what help? a guy who was traded for will perdue the next offseason? a brevin knight clone? an adam morrison clone? where was this help?

And the point about Duncan was that he was equal or better then Robinson in his rookie year, and surpassed him in his second year.
robinson was better in duncan's rookie year

Robinson was 32-33 years old. There is no way a 21-22 year-old Duncan would be better then a 32-33 year-old Hakeem, who was still in the prime of his career at that time. And Hakeem by that age also had played more games in his career through that age then Robinson did. I'm sure Robinson's decline by that time had mostly to do with his 97 injury, but the reason I'm bringing this up is cause it shows that Hakeem's injuries didn't affect him like Robinson's injuries did, which means that Hakeem wasn't much less durable then Robinson, if less durable at all.
the rockets got swept in '96 when hakeem was 33. if duncan was drafted into that rockets team olajuwon would have to let him be number 1 like robinson did duncan in '99.

Number of years as the league's best player? Hakeem-2, Robinson-0. Oh wait, you think Robinson was the best player of league just about every year, even better then Jordan, which is ridiculous by the way.
actually robinson: 5, olajuwon: 2

Better scorer, better rebounder, better defender, better playoff perfomer. Maybe they are equal in those categories during the regular season, but in the regular season + playoffs, Hakeem is better cause he stepped up his game, Robinson didn't.
less injury prone, did more with what he had, unmatched production, dominated for longer etc..where did olajuwon step up his game besides the '95 playoff run?