Clash of the titans: Jordan or Shaq???

[High Potential]

I know everyone thinks the GOAT is Jordan, but look at the cold hard facts about Shaq: When he was in his prime, absolutely no one could stop him. Jordan had players such as John Starks who could shut him down.

Shaq was a bigger athletic freak than Jordan ever was, infact I don't think we've ever seen an athlete like Shaq in the league, 7'1" 300 pounds, a monster vert and some of the quickest feet in the league. Even now in the twilight of his career he is still the best passing big man in the league, and commands a double team. How is Jordan better than Shaq when Shaq couldn't be stopped but Jordan could?

[iamgine]

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/assets/articles/2007/09/991/images/jordan6.jpg

[Lebron23]

Top 10 Players Efficiency Ratings

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.14
3. David Robinson 26.18
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5. Bob Pettit* 25.37
6. LeBron James 25.17
7. Tim Duncan 25.10
8. Neil Johnston* 24.67
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58


Shaquille O'Neal Players Efficiency Rating


1993-94 NBA 28.5 (2)
1994-95 NBA 28.6 (2)
1997-98 NBA 28.8 (1)
1998-99 NBA 30.6 (1)
1999-00 NBA 30.6 (1)
2000-01 NBA 30.2 (1)
2001-02 NBA 29.7 (1)
2002-03 NBA 29.5 (2)
2003-04 NBA 24.4 (4)
2004-05 NBA 27.0 (3)


Michael Jordan Players Efficiency Rating

1984-85 NBA 25.8 (2)
1986-87 NBA 29.8 (1)
1987-88 NBA 31.7 (1)
1988-89 NBA 31.1 (1)
1989-90 NBA 31.2 (1)
1990-91 NBA 31.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 27.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 29.7 (1)
1995-96 NBA 29.4 (2)
1996-97 NBA 27.8 (2)
1997-98 NBA 25.2 (4)

[High Potential]

Do those ratings take into account the fact that Shaq was playing through constant double and triple teams, while MJ was mostly guarded 1v1? While MJ was busy getting shut down by John Starks, Shaq was dominating double teams of Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis, and defensive players of the year, like Mutumbo. I doubt Jordan would have put up the numbers he did if he got double teamed everytime he touched the ball.

[plowking]

Do those ratings take into account the fact that Shaq was playing through constant double and triple teams, while MJ was mostly guarded 1v1? While MJ was busy getting shut down by John Starks, Shaq was dominating double teams of Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis, and defensive players of the year, like Mutumbo. I doubt Jordan would have put up the numbers he did if he got double teamed everytime he touched the ball.

What are you on about?

The only thing that can be said about Shaq is that he had the greatest 3 year stretch of any player, so I'd take Shaq's prime over everyone, including Jordan.

But Jordans 6 titles, constantly finding new ways to score, and longevity, put Jordan ahead of Shaq. Remember at 35 Jordan was still scoring 28ppg.

Sure you say Starks could stop Jordan, though you act as if Shaq never had a bad game.

BTW, I consider Shaq a top 3 player of all time, though like I said, he is not up to the Jordan level.

[Nash-tastic]

What are you on about?

The only thing that can be said about Shaq is that he had the greatest 3 year stretch of any player, so I'd take Shaq's prime over everyone, including Jordan.

But Jordans 6 titles, constantly finding new ways to score, and longevity, put Jordan ahead of Shaq. Remember at 35 Jordan was still scoring 28ppg.

Sure you say Starks could stop Jordan, though you act as if Shaq never had a bad game.

BTW, I consider Shaq a top 3 player of all time, though like I said, he is not up to the Jordan level.
:cheers:

[eeeeeebro]

how about the night when jordan scored 65 points against shaq. why didnt shaq just decide to stop jordan that night? Oh wait he was busy getting made a fool of LOL.

[gb8]

2000 shaq was the most devastating offensive force I have ever seen, it was ridiculous how easy it was for him to score. Plus he actually did the best job he ever has done defending the pick and roll. The only difference is that you have to have the guards to feed the ball into shaq, where as jordan can grab the board and create from the get go for himself. Give me 2000 shaq over any player ever if I am starting a team for one year, for any other year give me mj.

[72-10]

My god this thread is stupid. A look at the cold hard facts shows Jordan is head and shoulders the greater player.

[Maniak]

Jordan.

Shaq is a GOAT C no doubt, but his reign didnt last long enough, his prime ended too quick. When he was in said prime, nobody could stop him, his 300+ pounds of pure post power annihilated all. He is also an amazing defender.

But Jordan lasted longer and was just....Jordan

[72-10]

Shaq was never an amazing defender. You sounds almost as foolish as High Potential making a comment like that.

[Maniak]

how about the night when jordan scored 65 points against shaq. why didnt shaq just decide to stop jordan that night? Oh wait he was busy getting made a fool of LOL.

So C's guard SG's now? cool


Shaq was never an amazing defender. You sounds almost as foolish as High Potential making a comment like that.

The Suns sure didnt get Shaq for his O. He can defend big men really well now, and then.

[72-10]

They didn't get him for his defense persay, either. They got him for the mammoth size in clogging up a lane. Why don't you name the number of All-Defensive teams Shaq has been a part of?

[guy]

Am I the only that realized the threadstarter said John Starks shut Jordan down? Really? How old is high potential? For anyone to make a comment like that makes me believe they weren't even alive back then.

[plowking]

They didn't get him for his defense persay, either. They got him for the mammoth size in clogging up a lane. Why don't you name the number of All-Defensive teams Shaq has been a part of?


That's defense buddy, and precisely why Shaq is the one of the most underrated defensive players of all time.

[danumber88]

Top 10 Players Efficiency Ratings

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.14
3. David Robinson 26.18
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5. Bob Pettit* 25.37
6. LeBron James 25.17
7. Tim Duncan 25.10
8. Neil Johnston* 24.67
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58


Shaquille O'Neal Players Efficiency Rating


1993-94 NBA 28.5 (2)
1994-95 NBA 28.6 (2)
1997-98 NBA 28.8 (1)
1998-99 NBA 30.6 (1)
1999-00 NBA 30.6 (1)
2000-01 NBA 30.2 (1)
2001-02 NBA 29.7 (1)
2002-03 NBA 29.5 (2)
2003-04 NBA 24.4 (4)
2004-05 NBA 27.0 (3)


Michael Jordan Players Efficiency Rating

1984-85 NBA 25.8 (2)
1986-87 NBA 29.8 (1)
1987-88 NBA 31.7 (1)
1988-89 NBA 31.1 (1)
1989-90 NBA 31.2 (1)
1990-91 NBA 31.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 27.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 29.7 (1)
1995-96 NBA 29.4 (2)
1996-97 NBA 27.8 (2)
1997-98 NBA 25.2 (4)

repped, explains why Michael is the GOAT. The efficiency list is pretty close tho.

[plowking]

Am I the only that realized the threadstarter said John Starks shut Jordan down? Really? How old is high potential? For anyone to make a comment like that makes me believe they weren't even alive back then.

Holding Jordan to 40 points on some nights was shutting him down apparently.

[EricForman]

I know everyone thinks the GOAT is Jordan, but look at the cold hard facts about Shaq: When he was in his prime, absolutely no one could stop him. Jordan had players such as John Starks who could shut him down.



John Starks shut down Jordan?


Shaq was playing through constant double and triple teams, while MJ was mostly guarded 1v1?

It's arguable that Shaq faced more "doubles" than Jordan did. But to say Jordan was mostly guarded 1 on 1 is just silly. Watch the 80s.

[TMac&Luther]

Okay I looked at the "cold hard facts" and Jordan is > than Shaq......this thread and the thread starter fails miserably.

[High Potential]

Shaq fought through double and triple teams every time he touched the ball. Jordan didn't. I'll take Shaq.

[TMac&Luther]

Shaq fought through double and triple teams every time he touched the ball. Jordan didn't. I'll take Shaq.

Hmm, So I guess you would also take Haheem over Jordan too. Every dominant big man that has ever played this game has had to fight double and sometimes triple teams.....it's nothing new and it sure as hell didn't start with Shaq...that's just how the center position and playing in the post is.

Shaq over Jordan can't even remotely be entertained....

First of all, Jordan played in arguably the toughest era ever, his era made Shaq's era look like a cream puff league. (I mean how many rings did Shaq win in Jordan's era?

Second, Jordan didn't get to play with 3 vastly talented wing men, the equivelent of Shaq playing with Penny, Kobe, (who was a big reason why Shaq was able to win three rings in LA), and Wade (who IS THE DAMN REASON why Shaq even won a ring without Kobe) is if Jordan was able to play with 3 different dominant big men thoughout his career.....guess what pal, Jordan didn't play with any damn dominant big men and it didn't freaking matter, because he was that great.....and that much BETTER than Shaq.

[kumquat]

Nobody could stop Jordan in his prime either. Just like shaq he was double, even triple teamed....as a guard no less, he was beaten on (jordan rules) and still killed cats. Seriously watch some games.

[picc84]

Give me MJilla every day of the week and twice on sunday.

[BIZARRO]

I know everyone thinks the GOAT is Jordan, but look at the cold hard facts about Shaq: When he was in his prime, absolutely no one could stop him. Jordan had players such as John Starks who could shut him down.
Shaq was a bigger athletic freak than Jordan ever was, infact I don't think we've ever seen an athlete like Shaq in the league, 7'1" 300 pounds, a monster vert and some of the quickest feet in the league. Even now in the twilight of his career he is still the best passing big man in the league, and commands a double team. How is Jordan better than Shaq when Shaq couldn't be stopped but Jordan could?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Ridiculous.

[EricForman]

high potential, you suck as a poster.

[Loki]

Jordan had players such as John Starks who could shut him down.



Do those ratings take into account the fact that Shaq was playing through constant double and triple teams, while MJ was mostly guarded 1v1?

:oldlol:

What kind of nonsense is this? :oldlol:

While Jordan wasn't doubled as much as Shaq, he's pretty easily the second most doubled/trapped player of the last 25 years. Not sure where people get this idea that Jordan was guarded 1-on-1 his whole career. I guess opposing teams were just stupid, guarding the most dangerous offensive player in the league one-on-one all the time. :oldlol: Do yourself a favor and watch some games.

On topic, I'd take Jordan. Similar production, better intangibles, more mentally dominant, and the far superior late game player for obvious reasons. He was also more able than Shaq to have a big game on command when needed.

Virtually any number you look at has Jordan at #1 for a reason. PER was already posted. You can also look at Win Shares, where Jordan holds 4 of the top 5 seasons ever, 6 of the top 10 seasons ever, and 7 of the top 16 seasons ever. Shaq's best season is at #6. Win Shares are basically a measure of how responsible you are for your team's wins:


1. Michael Jordan 20.35 1987-88
2. Michael Jordan 20.27 1995-96
3. Michael Jordan 19.84 1990-91
4. Michael Jordan 19.08 1988-89
5. David Robinson 18.94 1993-94
6. Shaquille O'Neal 18.70 1999-00
7. Michael Jordan 18.68 1989-90
8. David Robinson 18.56 1995-96
9. Bob McAdoo* 18.45 1974-75
10. Michael Jordan 18.27 1996-97
11. Kevin Garnett 18.10 2003-04
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.82 1973-74
13. David Robinson 17.78 1994-95
14. Tim Duncan 17.68 2001-02
15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.37 1976-77
16. Michael Jordan 17.31 1991-92

[gb8]

:oldlol:

What kind of nonsense is this? :oldlol:

While Jordan wasn't doubled as much as Shaq, he's pretty easily the second most doubled/trapped player of the last 25 years. Not sure where people get this idea that Jordan was guarded 1-on-1 his whole career. I guess opposing teams were just stupid, guarding the most dangerous offensive player in the league one-on-one all the time. :oldlol: Do yourself a favor and watch some games.

On topic, I'd take Jordan. Similar production, better intangibles, more mentally dominant, and the far superior late game player for obvious reasons. He was also more able than Shaq to have a big game on command when needed.

Virtually any number you look at has Jordan at #1 for a reason. PER was already posted. You can also look at Win Shares, where Jordan holds 4 of the top 5 seasons ever, 6 of the top 10 seasons ever, and 7 of the top 16 seasons ever. Shaq's best season is at #6. Win Shares are basically a measure of how responsible you are for your team's wins:


1. Michael Jordan 20.35 1987-88
2. Michael Jordan 20.27 1995-96
3. Michael Jordan 19.84 1990-91
4. Michael Jordan 19.08 1988-89
5. David Robinson 18.94 1993-94
6. Shaquille O'Neal 18.70 1999-00
7. Michael Jordan 18.68 1989-90
8. David Robinson 18.56 1995-96
9. Bob McAdoo* 18.45 1974-75
10. Michael Jordan 18.27 1996-97
11. Kevin Garnett 18.10 2003-04
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.82 1973-74
13. David Robinson 17.78 1994-95
14. Tim Duncan 17.68 2001-02
15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.37 1976-77
16. Michael Jordan 17.31 1991-92

Really having watched you would take another player over the 2000 shaq?

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Jordan.

Shaq is a GOAT C no doubt, but his reign didnt last long enough, his prime ended too quick. When he was in said prime, nobody could stop him, his 300+ pounds of pure post power annihilated all. He is also an amazing defender.

But Jordan lasted longer and was just....Jordan

shaq made it to the finals 5 times fyi. perhaps if he didnt move from orlando to la la land, it could have been 6 or 7 times. (just because lakers were sorta kinda going thru the rebuilding stage when they brought shaq in.)

[Sir Charles]

Efficiency EFF where Efficiency of Your Natural Skills & FUNDEMANTALS Are Taking Into Account Over Those That Go Along With Athletic Qualities (Size, Strength, Speed, Stamina, Potence, Agility etc) That Determine Your Per Minute Efficiency Ratings

http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 Shaquille O'neal 27.59 16
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18 (would have been higher If he did not play so many years)
14 Kevin Garnett 27.13 13
15 Jerry West 27.10 14
16 David Robinson 26.98 14
17 Karl Malone 26.94 19
18 Tim Duncan 26.59 11
19 LeBron James 26.46 5
20 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14

21 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
22 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
23 Bob Lanier 25.29 14
24 Bob McAdoo 24.47 14
25 Elton Brand 24.37 9
26 Dirk Nowitzki 24.25 10
27 Moses Malone 24.14 19
28 Willis Reed 24.06 10
29 Elvin Hayes 24.04 16
30 Rick Barry 23.98 10
31 Nate Thurmond 23.73 14
32 Chris Webber 23.72 15
33 Wes Unseld 23.70 13
34 Shawn Marion 23.52 9
35 Chris Paul 23.51 3
36 Billy Cunningham 23.51 9
37 Patrick Ewing 23.41 17
38 Julius Erving 23.35 11
39 Neil Johnston 23.23 8
40 Brad Daugherty 23.10 8
41 Artis Gilmore 22.99 12
42 Dwyane Wade 22.95 5
43 Amare Stoudemire 22.85 6
44 Walt Frazier 22.74 13
45 Gus Johnson 22.63 9
46 Adrian Dantley 22.60 15
47 Kobe Bryant 22.42 12
48 Clyde Drexler 22.42 15
49 Dwight Howard 22.26 4
50 Larry Nance 22.14 13
51 Bill Walton 22.13 10
52 Dolph Schayes 22.10 15
53 George Gervin 22.07 10
54 Dan Issel 21.91 9
55 Pau Gasol 21.91 7
56 Yao Ming 21.90 6
57 Jeff Ruland 21.71 8
58 George Mikan 21.58 7
59 Allen Iverson 21.56 12
60 Kevin Johnson 21.56 12
61 Clark Kellogg 21.55 5
62 Bailey Howell 21.53 12
63 Carlos Boozer 21.49 6
64 Paul Pierce 21.45 10
65 Marques Johnson 21.44 11
66 Chris Bosh 21.41 5
67 Dominique Wilkins 21.26 15
68 Paul Arizin 21.26 10
69 Connie Hawkins 21.25 7
70 Vince Carter 21.16 10
71 Tracy McGrady 21.10 11
72 Grant Hill 21.09 13
73 Pete Maravich 20.98 10
74 Jason Kidd 20.95 14
75 Spencer Haywood 20.84 12
76 Jack Sikma 20.83 14
77 John Stockton 20.80 19
78 John Havlicek 20.68 16
79 Kevin McHale 20.44 13
80 Alex English 20.40 15
81 George McGinnis 20.26 7
82 Isiah Thomas 20.22 13
83 Elmore Smith 20.20 8
84 Carmelo Anthony 20.16 5
85 Dave Debusschere 20.14 12
86 Bob Dandridge 20.03 13
87 Lamar Odom 19.94 9
88 Zelmo Beaty 19.92 8
89 Gilbert Arenas 19.91 7
90 Rudy Tomjanovich 19.77 11
91 Alonzo Mourning 19.77 15
92 Sidney Wicks 19.76 10
93 Bill Bridges 19.73 13
94 Happy Hairston 19.65 11
95 Dan Roundfield 19.60 11
96 Bernard King 19.60 14
97 Alex Groza 19.53 2
98 Scottie Pippen 19.50 17
99 Dave Bing 19.33 12
100 Nate Archibald 19.24 13

[RidonKs]

What separates the two players in my mind:

Shaq's domination of the glass
Jordan's domination in the clutch (with the advantage compounded by Shaq's virtual liability status)
MJ's durability advantage

Everything else is fairly even, and it is easier to build a team around Shaq. At least in regards to C vs SG. But MJ's two advantages seals the deal for me. If only barely.

[mjbulls23]

What separates the two players in my mind:

Shaq's domination of the glass
Jordan's domination in the clutch (with the advantage compounded by Shaq's virtual liability status)
MJ's durability advantage

Everything else is fairly even, and it is easier to build a team around Shaq. At least in regards to C vs SG. But MJ's two advantages seals the deal for me. If only barely.

agreed. Though it's pretty close if you want to narrow it down to their best seasons. Jordan or not, this game is dominated by bigs and always has been (minus the last few years).



Jordan had players such as John Starks who could shut him down.

sarcasm? :wtf:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Jordan or bust. Especially compared to Shaq. Shaq never played an 82 game season. Shaq wasn't even as good as Hakeem.

[Loki]

Really having watched you would take another player over the 2000 shaq?

Yes, for exactly the reasons I stated. I would take '89-'92 Jordan over 2000 Shaq. Similar production in both the playoffs/RS, far better intangibles, far better 4th quarter player, far more able to have a big game on command. Plus Jordan was an assassin.

It's very close, though. Shaq's peak (2000 and 2001 imo) is insanely high. Basically as high as any other top 5 player's best few years.

[shawbryant]

Top 10 Players Efficiency Ratings

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.14
3. David Robinson 26.18
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5. Bob Pettit* 25.37
6. LeBron James 25.17
7. Tim Duncan 25.10
8. Neil Johnston* 24.67
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58


Shaquille O'Neal Players Efficiency Rating


1993-94 NBA 28.5 (2)
1994-95 NBA 28.6 (2)
1997-98 NBA 28.8 (1)
1998-99 NBA 30.6 (1)
1999-00 NBA 30.6 (1)
2000-01 NBA 30.2 (1)
2001-02 NBA 29.7 (1)
2002-03 NBA 29.5 (2)
2003-04 NBA 24.4 (4)
2004-05 NBA 27.0 (3)


Michael Jordan Players Efficiency Rating

1984-85 NBA 25.8 (2)
1986-87 NBA 29.8 (1)
1987-88 NBA 31.7 (1)
1988-89 NBA 31.1 (1)
1989-90 NBA 31.2 (1)
1990-91 NBA 31.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 27.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 29.7 (1)
1995-96 NBA 29.4 (2)
1996-97 NBA 27.8 (2)
1997-98 NBA 25.2 (4)
Where I can find the complete list that includes everyyears ranking?
Thanks!

[Day La Ghetto]

why does everyone think shaqs prime lasted only 3/4 years? because those are the years he won the title? he was just as unstoppable in 96/97 as he was in 2000. and dont anwser this subjective to the way i asked because they isnt a right anwser because im right already.

[Day La Ghetto]

oh and comparing a center to a guard is stupid as phuck, cant be done. apples and oranges, so whoever answered the original thread question seriously and used reasons to back it up is dumb to start with and just posting to post.

[72-10]

shaq made it to the finals 5 times fyi. perhaps if he didnt move from orlando to la la land, it could have been 6 or 7 times. (just because lakers were sorta kinda going thru the rebuilding stage when they brought shaq in.)

Shaq played in 6 Finals (1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2006).

[NotALakerTroll]

I'd rather have Michael Jordan in his prime, probably because he was in his prime a lot longer than Shaq was. Also, Michael Jordan was a great closer, and Shaquille relied heavily on Kobe and then Wade because of his terrible free throw shooting.

[72-10]

he was just as unstoppable in 96/97 as he was in 2000.

No. He wasn't. Shaq's best season was clearly, CLEARLY 1999-00. You would be a fool to choose any other season. And his second best season was clearly the following year. He had hulked up a bit then, I do wonder if he might have been doing something besides hitting the weights, but that was those few years around the century mark saw at least the second most dominant player I have seen (after you know who).


and dont anwser this subjective to the way i asked because they isnt a right anwser because im right already.
:rolleyes: WTF is that even supposed to mean?

[72-10]

I'd rather have Michael Jordan in his prime, probably because he was in his prime a lot longer than Shaq was. Also, Michael Jordan was a great closer, and Shaquille relied heavily on Kobe and then Wade because of his terrible free throw shooting.

Shaq could have won a ring with anyone in his prime. He certainly did not "rely" on any one player.

[NotALakerTroll]

Shaq could have won a ring with anyone in his prime. He certainly did not "rely" on any one player.

Near the end of games he did. Shaq was not the go to player in the final 3 minutes of the game, because of his tendency to MISS FREE THROWS! He certainly relied on Kobe/Wade, because they were usually the one's who got the ball at the end of the game.

[lilojmayo]

Jordan

why is this even a debate jordan at 35 years delivered a 6th championship Shaq 35 washed up


Shaq was able to be stopped in 2000

3 words

Hack a Shaq its done after that

[Loki]

Jordan

why is this even a debate jordan at 35 years delivered a 6th championship Shaq 35 washed up


Shaq was able to be stopped in 2000

3 words

Hack a Shaq its done after that

Nah, it's not that simple (though I agree with you on the longevity issue). I look at who is the better player as "who gives me the better chance to win more games?" And '89-'92 Jordan has an edge there on '00/'01 Shaq, but it's slight. Like I said, Shaq's peak was insanely high.

The only reason that the Jordan > Shaq logic doesn't apply to other perimeter players who are also superior late-game players as compared to Shaq is because they can't produce like Shaq did. Jordan could, however, so that coupled with his intangibles, mentality, late game dominance, and on-cue game-raising puts him (slightly) ahead imo.

[Lebron23]

Where I can find the complete list that includes everyyears ranking?
Thanks!


Basketball Reference.com :cheers:

[NotALakerTroll]

I think LeBron will eventually be up in the conversation with Jordan and Shaq. He's so big, and if he ever develops his jump shot he could be unstoppable.

[lilojmayo]

Shaq was also lazy never brought it everygame

Ill take Jordan any year of the bulls over shaq




But OJ Mayo not LBJ will be in this discuss in a few years

[plowking]

Near the end of games he did. Shaq was not the go to player in the final 3 minutes of the game, because of his tendency to MISS FREE THROWS! He certainly relied on Kobe/Wade, because they were usually the one's who got the ball at the end of the game.

Actually Shaq hit a lot of free throws when needed and when it counted.

[Godfather]

Near the end of games he did. Shaq was not the go to player in the final 3 minutes of the game, because of his tendency to MISS FREE THROWS! He certainly relied on Kobe/Wade, because they were usually the one's who got the ball at the end of the game.
Read off his finals stats with the Lakers (when he was in his prime) and tell me Shaq relied on Kobe (read of Kobe's stats too). When Shaq won teh championship with the heat he was the Wily veteran who backed up the superstar (in the playoffs at least).

[lilojmayo]

Read off his finals stats with the Lakers (when he was in his prime) and tell me Shaq relied on Kobe (read of Kobe's stats too). When Shaq won teh championship with the heat he was the Wily veteran who backed up the superstar (in the playoffs at least).

when the game mattered

its was always Kobe kobe kobe kobe shaq was nowhere to be found




then when kobe got doubled it was Horry for 3 has shaq ever even had a game winner b4 in his whole career i think not

[Diesel J]

Nah, it's not that simple (though I agree with you on the longevity issue). I look at who is the better player as "who gives me the better chance to win more games?" And '89-'92 Jordan has an edge there on '00/'01 Shaq, but it's slight. Like I said, Shaq's peak was insanely high.

The only reason that the Jordan > Shaq logic doesn't apply to other perimeter players who are also superior late-game players as compared to Shaq is because they can't produce like Shaq did. Jordan could, however, so that coupled with his intangibles, mentality, late game dominance, and on-cue game-raising puts him (slightly) ahead imo.


I agree

[plowking]

when the game mattered

its was always Kobe kobe kobe kobe shaq was nowhere to be found




then when kobe got doubled it was Horry for 3 has shaq ever even had a game winner b4 in his whole career i think not

Would Kobe or Horry have been in that position to take the game winning shot without Shaq. No they'd be about 20 points down with Kobe shooting even worse from the field then he did with Shaq. maybe 30-35% each series. Kobe can't step up in the finals, it's like he's allergic to it.

[plowking]

Here's a game winner for you lilojmayo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95121hHTqbI

I like how Shaq had to rebound Kobe's airball.

[lilojmayo]

Here's a game winner for you lilojmayo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95121hHTqbI

I like how Shaq had to rebound Kobe's airball.

asterik please kobe traveled by a mile b4 shaq got the ball

[plowking]

OK, further admitting Kobe would suck without Shaq.

[miller-time]

will shaq score 40 points when hes 40?

[RidonKs]

Actually Shaq hit a lot of free throws when needed and when it counted.
He also missed a lot. Just like the rest of the time.

Shaq "making them when they count" is more or less a myth created by Shaq himself. There might be a slight improvement near the end of games, but not nearly enough to validate his own argument as to why he shouldn't bother improving.

[plowking]

He also missed a lot. Just like the rest of the time.

Shaq "making them when they count" is more or less a myth created by Shaq himself. There might be a slight improvement near the end of games, but not nearly enough to validate his own argument as to why he shouldn't bother improving.

Still not enough reason for me to believe that Kobe>Shaq. Especially since I consider Shaq a top 3 player of all time, and Kobe is no where near that.

[RidonKs]

Still not enough reason for me to believe that Kobe>Shaq.
Oh.

I didn't even read any other parts of your argument.

Speaking of which, why the hell are you having that argument?

[plowking]

I've forgotten. Something along the lines of Shaq needed Kobe more because he could hit the big shots.

It was initially about Jordan and Shaq, and who you would take. I said Jordan, though I would take Shaq's prime over anybody.

[RidonKs]

I said Jordan, though I would take Shaq's prime over anybody.
So then Shaq. I think the original question had to do solely with primes, and who was more dominant in their own.

[plowking]

So then Shaq. I think the original question had to do solely with primes, and who was more dominant in their own.

No, I think it was more of a "who would you take if you are starting your franchise over again, but you already know how each player has played" question.

I said Jordan, due to being more efficient over a longer period of time. Though if I was to start a team, without knowing how each player would have turned out, you almost always choose the centre.

[EricForman]

these f'ning Kobe homers. Just because everyone said Jordan over Shaq, they automatically wanna bring Kobe in and say he's over Shaq too cause in their minds Kobe is "close" to Jordan.

:oldlol:


Jordan's #1 all time. Shaq could be anywhere from the 3 to 6 range. While Kobe is still closing in on the top ten (not quit there yet)

So in other words, there's still a gap between Shaq and Kobe. Calm down Kobe homers.

[97 bulls]

i dont believe this thread has gone 5 pages. heres the bottom line. when shaq was the dominant player in the league, who was he dominating? the centers from 2000 to now were and are total jokes. shaq came in the league in 92 and has always been in one of the top three teams in the league. but he didnt win until all the great centers grew old and retired.

you guys do realize that shaq was swept out of the playoffs i belive 7 straight seasons. sometime by lesser talented teams.

not to mention when he did start winning who did he beat? his biggest comp. was an old arvydas sabonis, a scrub in greg ostertag, deke mutombo (and we dont even know how old he was), and one of the collins twins. i would like to know the top 5 centers in the league from 2000-2004.

how can the MDE not be able to finish games? remember hack a shaq? it got so bad jackson would have to sit him down in the 4th until the last two minutes.

jordan is shaqs superior in every single way. i even belive jordan could dominate guards in the post like shaq did the scrub centers he played against. this really isnt even a fair comparison.

[Loki]

^^^^

That a bit much. I'd take Jordan too, but it's not that big a gap if we're just comparing absolute primes.

[97 bulls]

^^^^

That a bit much. I'd take Jordan too, but it's not that big a gap if we're just comparing absolute primes.
no dude,the gap is big. maybe not as big as other greats cuz shaq is great in his own right but this really shouldnt be a discussion.

[plowking]

i dont believe this thread has gone 5 pages. heres the bottom line. when shaq was the dominant player in the league, who was he dominating? the centers from 2000 to now were and are total jokes. shaq came in the league in 92 and has always been in one of the top three teams in the league. but he didnt win until all the great centers grew old and retired.

you guys do realize that shaq was swept out of the playoffs i belive 7 straight seasons. sometime by lesser talented teams.

not to mention when he did start winning who did he beat? his biggest comp. was an old arvydas sabonis, a scrub in greg ostertag, deke mutombo (and we dont even know how old he was), and one of the collins twins. i would like to know the top 5 centers in the league from 2000-2004.

how can the MDE not be able to finish games? remember hack a shaq? it got so bad jackson would have to sit him down in the 4th until the last two minutes.

jordan is shaqs superior in every single way. i even belive jordan could dominate guards in the post like shaq did the scrub centers he played against. this really isnt even a fair comparison.

You are an idiot.

If he was getting beat by less talented teams, it sure as hell wasn't his fault. Look at his final against Olajuwon. He had just as good if not better stats then Olajuwon, so blame it on his supporting cast.

When it came to playoffs, Shaq had 9 straight season in the playoffs with 25 and 10. He also had 2 more playoffs seasons with 21+ and 13+.

[97 bulls]

You are an idiot.

If he was getting beat by less talented teams, it sure as hell wasn't his fault. Look at his final against Olajuwon. He had just as good if not better stats then Olajuwon, so blame it on his supporting cast.

When it came to playoffs, Shaq had 9 straight season in the playoffs with 25 and 10. He also had 2 more playoffs seasons with 21+ and 13+.
you cant have it both ways shaq whore. if shaqs teams win its cuz of him if they loose it cuz of his team? come on 7 continuious years of getting swept. and if hes so great maybe he should have held olajuwan by playn some defense.

jordan came through almost every year once he got a team around him. PERIOD.

[EricForman]

dude i think everyone agrees jordan is #1 and shaq is in the #3 to #7 range. whats there to argue about?

[plowking]

you cant have it both ways shaq whore. if shaqs teams win its cuz of him if they loose it cuz of his team? come on 7 continuious years of getting swept. and if hes so great maybe he should have held olajuwan by playn some defense.

jordan came through almost every year once he got a team around him. PERIOD.

He did play D on Olajuwon. Kept him below 50% shooting. I'd say thats very good for a centre people in some cases consider better then Shaq. Which is a travesty may I add.

[97 bulls]

He did play D on Olajuwon. Kept him below 50% shooting. I'd say thats very good for a centre people in some cases consider better then Shaq. Which is a travesty may I add.
lol, you are reaching. if shaq shoots 75 percent (which is about average) the magic win games 3 and 4. and then maybe the series.

[Loki]

Olajuwon averaged 32.8 ppg vs. Shaq in the '95 Finals, but needed 29.0 shots per game to do it (Dream shot 48.3% that series). Shaq kept him on the outside and off the FT line for the most part. Meanwhile, Shaq averaged 28.0 ppg on just 18.5 FGA/gm, and shot 59.5% from the field. So Hakeem needed 10.5 more shots per game to score just 4.8 more ppg, which is a very poor ratio.

He didn't shut Dream down, but I wouldn't say that he did a bad job.

[RoseCity07]

Shaq was never at any point more athletic than Jordan.

[Silverbullit]

Jordan averaged 31.8 ppg vs. John Starks.



http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=starkjo01http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=starkjo01

[plowking]

Jordan averaged 31.8 ppg vs. John Starks.



http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=starkjo01http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=starkjo01


http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=dumarjo01

Also 31, 6, 6 against Dumars. For the guys credited on being the ones able to guard Jordan the best, they didn't really do that great of a job did they High Potential?

Or maybe it is the fact that Jordan was soo dominant that in fact holding him to 30 was considered keeping him quiet. So don't be fooled by previous talk of how certain people shut down Jordan, because you couldn't. All you could do was try to contain him and hope he doesn't go off for 50. They were considered "great" defenders on Jordan due to keeping him on 30, etc.

[gb8]

Nah, it's not that simple (though I agree with you on the longevity issue). I look at who is the better player as "who gives me the better chance to win more games?" And '89-'92 Jordan has an edge there on '00/'01 Shaq, but it's slight. Like I said, Shaq's peak was insanely high.

The only reason that the Jordan > Shaq logic doesn't apply to other perimeter players who are also superior late-game players as compared to Shaq is because they can't produce like Shaq did. Jordan could, however, so that coupled with his intangibles, mentality, late game dominance, and on-cue game-raising puts him (slightly) ahead imo.

I see your point, but i disagree in terms of sheer dominance and altering the shape of the defense and like I said the best defensive job I seen him do on the pick and roll, not saying the dominance on the glass and blocks and clogging up the middle, there is not a single player I wold take over shaq in 2000. Granted I havent probably watched as many full jordan games from 90 as you have. But of the games I have seen I have to say with the first pick I would take the 2000 shaq.

[guy]

lol, you are reaching. if shaq shoots 75 percent (which is about average) the magic win games 3 and 4. and then maybe the series.

LOL 75 percent is average?

[juju151111]

Why do people say shaq can't play defense.LOL People say dumb things.

[NotALakerTroll]

Read off his finals stats with the Lakers (when he was in his prime) and tell me Shaq relied on Kobe (read of Kobe's stats too). When Shaq won teh championship with the heat he was the Wily veteran who backed up the superstar (in the playoffs at least).

You're a moron. Of course Shaq was the primary option during LA's three-peat. But Shaq often deferred to Kobe and let Kobe create offense for himself or his teammates during close games. I'm not saying Kobe was more valuable than Shaq, but since you're obviously biased against Kobe you probably didn't read this thoroughly.

[NotALakerTroll]

Would Kobe or Horry have been in that position to take the game winning shot without Shaq. No they'd be about 20 points down with Kobe shooting even worse from the field then he did with Shaq. maybe 30-35% each series. Kobe can't step up in the finals, it's like he's allergic to it.

Wow. Way to give a cheap shot lol. Anyways, no one is saying that Kobe was more valuable than Shaq, but it's arguable that without Kobe the Lakers probably wouldn't have been there in the first place. They were 1A and 1B.

[97 bulls]

LOL 75 percent is average?
i always believed 75% is averge. i mean, its a C.

[StarJordan]

Chicago 4
Orlando 0

:rockon:

[plowking]

Wow. Way to give a cheap shot lol. Anyways, no one is saying that Kobe was more valuable than Shaq, but it's arguable that without Kobe the Lakers probably wouldn't have been there in the first place. They were 1A and 1B.

Don't kid yourself. It was never 1A and 1B. The only time it was even close to being like that was in the finals against the Nets.

Shaq deffered to Kobe? Oh dear. I know Kobe is still on your team and all, but honestly. They looked to go to Shaq late in the games as well, he was able to get many 3 point play attempts.

[guy]

i always believed 75% is averge. i mean, its a C.

I hope you're being sarcastic, cause if not then thats just stupid. Implying that Shaq choked cause he didn't shoot 75% against Hakeem Olajuwon, arguably the greatest defender ever, would make you an idiot.

[plowking]

I hope you're being sarcastic, cause if not then thats just stupid. Implying that Shaq choked cause he didn't shoot 75% against Hakeem Olajuwon, arguably the greatest defender ever, would make you an idiot.

If anything it shows Shaq's greatness if he is expecting 75% shooting from him.

[lilojmayo]

this thread should be Jordan or OJ Mayo

[AItheAnswer3]

this thread should be Jordan or OJ Mayo

Stop riding Mayo's ****

[lilojmayo]

Stop riding Mayo's ****

this is why im so eager for the damnnn season to start already so Mayo can start dropping 30ppg and everybody will be bowing down to him like you AI


ALL HAIL THE JUICE MONSTER :bowdown:

[picc84]

this thread should be Jordan or OJ Mayo

:oldlol:

repped

no not really, but i thought that was funny

[AItheAnswer3]

this is why im so eager for the damnnn season to start already so Mayo can start dropping 30ppg and everybody will be bowing down to him like you AI


ALL HAIL THE JUICE MONSTER :bowdown:
:banghead:
Mayo wont do squat

[High Potential]

\

not to mention when he did start winning who did he beat? his biggest comp. was an old arvydas sabonis, a scrub in greg ostertag, deke mutombo (and we dont even know how old he was), and one of the collins twins. i would like to know the top 5 centers in the league from 2000-2004.

how can the MDE not be able to finish games? remember hack a shaq? it got so bad jackson would have to sit him down in the 4th until the last two minutes.

jordan is shaqs superior in every single way. i even belive jordan could dominate guards in the post like shaq did the scrub centers he played against. this really isnt even a fair comparison.
Shaq also went against 7'4" Rik Smits. 7'5" Sabonis was the man who primarily guarded Shaq, but he was double teamed nearly every time he got the ball, and, Oh yeah guess who was the guy doubling? That's right, Rasheed Wallace, one of the best defenders in the league. Also, Shaq dominated Mutumbo in the finals the year he got DpotY. He also dominated against Tim Duncan and David Robinson.

When Shaq played Hakeem in the finals, there is a myth that Hakeem flat out owned Shaq, but they actually put up nearly identical stats. Not Shaq's fault his team also had to go against Clyde "the Glide" top 3 Shooting Guard of all time Drexler along with Hakeem.

Shaq dominated strong defenders, don't even try to pretend he was only as dominant as he was because he went against week defending. Also, it doesn't matter the defenders because in his prime he'd get double, and sometimes triple teamed every time he touched the ball, and he still put up those numbers.

[High Potential]

Shaq was never at any point more athletic than Jordan.
Yes he was. He has probably the biggest vert for a guy of his height and weight of all time. He had the quickest feet in the league. He was pure power, yes also one of the quickest guards in the league. Shaq is clearly the better athlete than Jordan was, when there are athletes of similar quality to Jordan in the league right now (Heck, Josh Smith is more athletic) but there's no one now, or before who compared to Shaq athleticism and size wise.

[Loki]

LOL @ "Josh Smith is more athletic." :oldlol:

The only thing Smith does as well or possibly better than Jordan is one-footed jumping. That's it. Then Jordan sh!ts on him in body control, two-footed and hop step leaping, agility/speed/quickness, explosiveness (i.e., acceleration), hand-eye coordination/reflexes etc.

I mean, seriously -- at least try to think before you speak.

[picc84]

Shaq more athletic than Jordan? :wtf:

[Sir Charles]

Jordan

why is this even a debate jordan at 35 years delivered a 6th championship Shaq 35 washed up


Shaq was able to be stopped in 2000

3 words

Hack a Shaq its done after that

Its called Stockier built dumy. Same reason why Reggie Miller, Kareem, Jordan etc all Thin Fiber-like Biotypes Last Longer at close to their TOP LEVEL than the Stockeri dudes like Barkley, Shaq, Wilt. But the again, Stockier built ones have more explosion for some years than the Thin Fiber-like dudes..

And Shaq was as athletic as Jordan in many ways. You have t compare Shaq to other Centers and Jordan to other Shooting Guards. Don`t compare them they have different roles.

[Samurai Swoosh]

LOL @ "Josh Smith is more athletic." :oldlol:

The only thing Smith does as well or possibly better than Jordan is one-footed jumping. That's it. Then Jordan sh!ts on him in body control, two-footed and hop step leaping, agility/speed/quickness, explosiveness (i.e., acceleration), hand-eye coordination/reflexes etc.

I mean, seriously -- at least try to think before you speak.
You don't want to address Shaq being the better athlete comment?

:wtf:

[Loki]

You don't want to address Shaq being the better athlete comment?

:wtf:

It's arguable either way. It's not that outlandish a claim. Smith > Jordan is, however.

[97 bulls]

I hope you're being sarcastic, cause if not then thats just stupid. Implying that Shaq choked cause he didn't shoot 75% against Hakeem Olajuwon, arguably the greatest defender ever, would make you an idiot.
dude, he shot a terrible ft%. he didnt choke cuz hes never been even an ok ft shooter. but that along with other things shows that shaq isnt the dominant player that jordan is.

and im the "idiot" but you make it seem like olajuwan was standing right in front of shaq while shooting his fts. that is an idiotic statement in itself.

[guy]

dude, he shot a terrible ft%. he didnt choke cuz hes never been even an ok ft shooter. but that along with other things shows that shaq isnt the dominant player that jordan is.

and im the "idiot" but you make it seem like olajuwan was standing right in front of shaq while shooting his fts. that is an idiotic statement in itself.

LOL ok man, maybe I'm missing something but there was nothing in your posts that mentioned FT shooting. I was assuming you meant FG%, my bad.

[plowking]

LOL ok man, maybe I'm missing something but there was nothing in your posts that mentioned FT shooting. I was assuming you meant FG%, my bad.

It's still not choking. He shot what he usually shots. I really don't see how Shaq choked against Hakeem. He outplayed Hakeem in my eyes.

[Samurai Swoosh]

He outplayed Hakeem in my eyes.
Except for the fact that he didn't ....

[plowking]

Except for the fact that he didn't ....

Hakeem having to take 9 more shots then Shaq to score only 4.8 points more suggests he did.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Hakeem having to take 9 more shots then Shaq to score only 4.8 points more suggests he did.
That is the only stat to base your argument off ... and even then, that doesn't tell the whole story.

Hakeem put his thing down on Shaq, and his team got swept. It wasn't JUST in the NBA Finals when Hakeem would get his swerve on against Shaq.

[plowking]

That is the only stat to base your argument off ... and even then, that doesn't tell the whole story.

Hakeem put his thing down on Shaq, and his team got swept. It wasn't JUST in the NBA Finals when Hakeem would get his swerve on against Shaq.

No I base it off watching all four games. Sure the got swept, and Hakeem was the main factor for them winning, but he sure as hell didn't outplay Shaq.


Yer and Hakeem always dominated Shaq, right?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

Stats show differently.

[plowking]

Furthermore out of their 20 meetings Hakeem only managed to shoot above 50% five times. Shaq on the other hand shot over 50% from the field fifteen times.

[guy]

It's still not choking. He shot what he usually shots. I really don't see how Shaq choked against Hakeem. He outplayed Hakeem in my eyes.

Yea I don't think it was choking either.