View Full Version : Who is the best defensive shooting guard of all time?
1987_Lakers
10-03-2008, 01:19 AM
When you think of great defensive players, you generally think of forwards and centers and not guards (probably because guards are more dynamic offensive positions and very difficult to guard) and I think this is especially true with shooting guards. Shooting guards generate a lot of offense, they are very quick, they are great ball-handlers, they can shoot well (usually), drive well (usually), and they are some of the best athletes on the court. When I was trying to think of all-time great defensive shooting guards I had a lot of trouble. Jordan certainly comes to mind as he certainly had all the ability to be the best defensive SG ever. But was he really the best? I can also think of some guys who have been referred to both as SGs and SFs (like Artest), but I'm looking for a guy who is more of a true SG.
Nominees...
Jerry West - http://www.sports-photos.com/catalog/images/JerryWest1Clr.tif.jpg
Sidney Moncrief - http://www.wisopinion.com/blogs/sir%20sid.jpg
Michael Cooper - http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAFH021~Michael-Cooper-Photofile-Posters.jpg
Joe Dumars - http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/pr/subs/siexclusive/06/15/pistons.flashback/p1_dumars_all.jpg
Michael Jordan - http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Magic-Johnson-Michael-Jordan-Photofile-Photograph-C10125462.jpeg
Kobe Bryant - http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2008/01-28/lakers28fsf_400.jpg
Doctor K
10-03-2008, 01:21 AM
Hmmm. I still say Jordan.
Bowen isn't really a true SG, he is more of a SF.
If you go by overall defensive impact, which includes individual defense, team/help defense, and off the ball defense, I think Jordan wins this pretty handily.
There are players who were comparable/equal/slightly better than Jordan in one defensive area (e.g., Moncrief was a tremendous 1-on-1 defender), but none bring the entire defensive package to the table like he does imo, and none have the defensive impact on games that he did. And even in those cases where someone was possibly superior, it was only as compared to the average game's Jordan, because when Jordan focused on it, he was as good or better in every single defensive area as any SG who has ever played the game.
I've never seen a guard affect the complexion of games defensively like '88-'93 Jordan did. That's why he finished top 5 in DPOY voting for 9 consecutive full seasons ('88-'98), including one DPOY, two #2 finishes in DPOY voting ('90 and '93), and another top 3 finish.
Resurrection
10-03-2008, 01:24 AM
Michael Cooper or Andrew Toney.
No one else even comes close (waits for Jordan groupies).
JayGuevara
10-03-2008, 01:27 AM
Dumars, Moncrief, and Jordan get my votes. But I might be slightly biased in my pick of Dumars as number 1, because he's so closely tied to Detroit. Moncrief has a strong case also. And Jordan could have been the best ever, but I don't think as is he defense would give him best ever. There were many times Pippen would cover the other teams best perimeter player for most of the game, and Jordan would come in and finish him. But I would say in my personal opinion they're top 3 and all have cases to be number 1, but I'm personally inclined to give it to Joe.
And I don't consider Bruce Bowen a shooting guard.
Michael Cooper or Andrew Toney.
No one else even comes close (waits for Jordan groupies).
Wtf? :oldlol: At least Cooper is a respectable choice. But Toney?
RonySeikalyFTW
10-03-2008, 01:28 AM
It has to be MJ. I love that you included Moncrief and Dumars, they instantly came to mind when I read the tread topic. John Starks, Kendall Gill, Dan Majerle, Vernon Maxwell, Mitch Richmond were all great defensive 2-guards in their prime. Gary Payton could've guarded any 2 if he'd chosen to.
Glove_20
10-03-2008, 01:29 AM
I've never seen a guard affect the complexion of games defensively like '88-'93 Jordan did.
http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pg2/2006/0331/photo/g_payton_195.jpg
Resurrection
10-03-2008, 01:29 AM
Wtf? :oldlol: At least Cooper is a respectable choice. But Toney?
Before injury....Toney was a defensive stud/stopper. Ask the Celtics.
Glove_20
10-03-2008, 01:30 AM
To answer the question.
It's close between Jordan and Moncreif. I'd give Jordan the very slight edge. Followed by those 2 would be Cooper/Dumars. Lastly, come West/Kobe.
http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pg2/2006/0331/photo/g_payton_195.jpg
Probably the closest thing to it, yeah (and Pippen would be the closest thing to it from the SF spot). Jordan was still a better team/help defender, whereas Payton was his equal and possibly superior at ball pressure and doubling the post from the strong side. Payton, during his defensive prime ('96-'00 imo) also exerted a bit more energy than every version of Jordan save for '88-'91 MJ, because he didn't have to do as much offensively.
1987_Lakers
10-03-2008, 01:31 AM
If you go by overall defensive impact, which includes individual defense, team/help defense, and off the ball defense, I think Jordan wins this pretty handily.
There are players who were comparable/equal/slightly better than Jordan in one defensive area (e.g., Moncrief was a tremendous 1-on-1 defender), but none bring the entire defensive package to the table like he does imo, and none have the defensive impact on games that he did. And even in those cases where someone was possibly superior, it was only as compared to the average game's Jordan, because when Jordan focused on it, he was as good or better in every single defensive area as any SG who has ever played the game.
I've never seen a guard affect the complexion of games defensively like '88-'93 Jordan did. That's why he finished top 5 in DPOY voting for 9 consecutive full seasons ('88-'98), including one DPOY, two #2 finishes in DPOY voting ('90 and '93), and another top 3 finish.
Hey...do you by any chance have the DPOY voting from '91 and '92. I've been searching for that for a while but can't find it. Where did Jordan finish those 2 years?
iggy>
10-03-2008, 01:36 AM
jj reddick
Hey...do you by any chance have the DPOY voting from '91 and '92. I've been searching for that for a while but can't find it. Where did Jordan finish those 2 years?
Nope, I don't know of any place that has voting tallies. My comments above were pieced together from what announcers in games from those seasons/playoffs said about the DPOY results. For instance, here's a game video from the 1993 playoffs where it says that Jordan was voted best defensive player in the league by NBA coaches and second to Hakeem by the sportswriters/sportscasters (Hakeem won DPOY in 1993). It's at the 1:21-1:32 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16D4DCduxVA
I'm surprised basketball-reference.com doesn't have DPOY tallies pre-1996. Maybe they didn't keep the records of it after the votes were counted? I find that hard to believe, however.
RonySeikalyFTW
10-03-2008, 01:38 AM
As great of a defender as MJ was, would he be able to guard himself if he was cloned?
*head explodes*
Glove_20
10-03-2008, 01:40 AM
Probably the closest thing to it, yeah (and Pippen would be the closest thing to it from the SF spot). Jordan was still a better team/help defender, whereas Payton was his equal and possibly superior at ball pressure and doubling the post from the strong side. Payton, during his defensive prime ('96-'00 imo) also exerted a bit more energy than every version of Jordan save for '88-'91 MJ, because he didn't have to do as much offensively.
Jordan was great at team defense, and possibly just a little better than Payton, however Payton also was an excellent team defender and was the biggest reason Karl's trapping schemes were able to have any success. And because he guarded the PG he could literally cause trouble for the whole team's offense.
Payton's defensive peak was more 95-98. And the difference in energy spent on defense isn't too great either. During the last 4 years of Payton's defensive prime (99-02) Payton played 40+ minutes where Jordan played 40+ minutes only twice. Also Payton's career high in minutes is nearly 42, Jordan has never played even 40.5 mpg. And Payton not only has scoring duties, but passing/play making duties and has to bring the ball up every time for his team. This takes quite a bit of energy as well. Some years Jordan for sure has Payton on offensive energy expenditure, however the difference throughout their defensive primes isn't too great.
Glove20, Jordan was, by far, the primary weapon on his team. He saw more defensive pressure than Payton by a good margin in any season with Chicago. Kemp was Payton's relative equal/superior offensively until he left, and then iirc Baker came and was at ~20 ppg for a while. Not sure who GP played with after Baker fell off.
I also never said that Payton wasn't a great team/help defender, because he was. But imo Jordan is the best ever in that respect. He'd sniff out plays from anywhere on the court, help on penetrations and post-ups, and just generally be disruptive. Much more of a shotblocking threat and an equal or greater ball thief, too.
Glove_20
10-03-2008, 01:51 AM
Glove20, Jordan was, by far, the primary weapon on his team. He saw more defensive pressure than Payton by a good margin in any season with Chicago. Kemp was Payton's relative equal/superior offensively until he left, and then iirc Baker came and was at ~20 ppg for a while. Not sure who GP played with after Baker fell off.
I also never said that Payton wasn't a great team/help defender, because he was. But imo Jordan is the best ever in that respect. He'd sniff out plays from anywhere on the court, help on penetrations and post-ups, and just generally be disruptive. Much more of a shotblocking threat and an equal or greater ball thief, too.
He really played with no one. Those 40+mpg seasons came when he was even more clear cut best offensive player than Jordan was most of his career. Yet he was still able to make All-D 1st teams playing minutes more than Jordan ever had, and clearly being the best offensive player on the team. And Kemp really never was superior than Payton on offense, during their time together Payton routinely lead the team in points and assists and minutes. When you lead the team in those 3 categories, it's not too hard to guess who was better on offense or who spent more energy on offense.
Your team defense and individual defense actually looks better when you have greater defensive teammates around you. I hope you keep that in mind Loki. That's probably the final reason I would place Payton over Jordan. Both never had great shot blockers behind them, however Jordan had a very effective team defender in Scottie Pippen. Payton never played with anyone even close to that caliber. Having better defensive teammates around you actually makes your defense look better.
RonySeikalyFTW
10-03-2008, 01:55 AM
. Some years Jordan for sure has Payton on offensive energy expenditure, however the difference throughout their defensive primes isn't too great.
C'mon, don't compare Payton's offensive energy expenditure to Jordan's. Just look at FTAs. Every time you're hacked while going up for a jumper or driving to the rim takes a lot out of you. Then account for the energy it takes to run miles of circles through picks to receive the ball off a screen (Rip Hamilton literally runs miles every game in Detroit's half-court sets alone).
Your team defense and individual defense actually looks better when you have greater defensive teammates around you. I hope you keep that in mind Loki. That's probably the final reason I would place Payton over Jordan. Both never had great shot blockers behind them, however Jordan had a very effective team defender in Scottie Pippen. Payton never played with anyone even close to that caliber. Having better defensive teammates around you actually makes your defense look better.
Great defensive teammates definitely help, but Jordan won DPOY when Pippen was a benchwarmer, so it's not like we didn't have any indication of his defensive greatness. Even in '89 and '90 Jordan was killing it defensively and Pip wasn't really "Pippen" yet as we know him defensively (especially '89).
Glove_20
10-03-2008, 02:02 AM
Great defensive teammates definitely help, but Jordan won DPOY when Pippen was a benchwarmer, so it's not like we didn't have any indication of his defensive greatness. Even in '89 and '90 Jordan was killing it defensively and Pip wasn't really "Pippen" yet as we know him defensively (especially '89).
I'm just saying having great teammates help Jordan's defensive appearance. I know he still would be a great defender regardless of Pippen. Though it does really help to have both Rodman/Pippen in the twilight of your defensive prime.
And there is no doubting that Pippen by 90 was a pretty defensive minded player. He didn't make the All-D teams but it was clear by his play that he concentrated on defense.
But it's defiantly arguable and could go either way.
plowking
10-03-2008, 02:03 AM
Jordan was the best defensive SG, though in my opinion Payton is the greatest guard defender ever.
Lebron23
10-03-2008, 02:10 AM
Michael Jordan or Sidney Moncrief.
i'm sorry,but Kobe Bryant isn't fit into that category,we are talking about "Who is the best defensive shooting guard of all time?" he is probably not even the best defensive SG in his generation
G-train
10-03-2008, 02:29 AM
Jordan basically trained Pippen how to be a defensive predator. I read that in one of his bio's.
Pippen probably surpassed Jordan in some ways defensively, due to his length and quickness and 6'7ish height and extender arms.
i'm sorry,but Kobe Bryant isn't fit into that category,we are talking about "Who is the best defensive shooting guard of all time?" he is probably not even the best defensive SG in his generation
who would you give that honor to?
Nash-tastic
10-03-2008, 04:11 AM
I hate Bruce Bowen, my vote to Jordan & Dumars
Figlo
10-03-2008, 05:31 AM
I'd go with Jordan since he is the only one i really know alot about. But from what i heard Moncrief should be #1.
dawsey6
10-03-2008, 07:29 AM
As great of a defender as MJ was, would he be able to guard himself if he was cloned?
*head explodes*
Given Jordan studied certain opponent players' styles and habits extensively, and that he would know all of his own tricks, yes, he would be able to hold himself off (maybe not shut himself down).
Out of SG's Jordan does get my nod. If this was all guards in general I would give it to Payton.
Revelation
10-03-2008, 10:25 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Joe Dumars
3. Sidney Moncrief
4. Michael Cooper
---
Don't belong on list:
Jerry West
Kobe Bryant
stephanieg
10-03-2008, 12:37 PM
The best defensive SG ever was an eskimo born in 600 AD. He would shutdown anyone.
Oh, you mean the best SG who ever actually played in the NBA? I'll go with that Sid guy. It's kinda crazy that the mid 80s had so many good teams that the Bucks just sorta float along in the collective memory and imagination.
tontoz
10-03-2008, 12:50 PM
I was wondering how Kobe got on this list but when i looked at the OP's avatar i understood.
1987_Lakers
10-03-2008, 12:54 PM
I was wondering how Kobe got on this list but when i looked at the OP's avatar i understood.
Kobe has been the best defensive SG since Jordan retired. I'm not bias. It's a fact.
JayGuevara
10-03-2008, 01:41 PM
Kobe has been the best defensive SG since Jordan retired. I'm not bias. It's a fact.
Well, ignoring for a moment that Bruce Bowen is more of a SF, why is he on the list then? Kobe is a better defender than Bruce Bowen?
AllenIverson3
10-03-2008, 01:43 PM
When you think of great defensive players, you generally think of forwards and centers and not guards (probably because guards are more dynamic offensive positions and very difficult to guard) and I think this is especially true with shooting guards. Shooting guards generate a lot of offense, they are very quick, they are great ball-handlers, they can shoot well (usually), drive well (usually), and they are some of the best athletes on the court. When I was trying to think of all-time great defensive shooting guards I had a lot of trouble. Jordan certainly comes to mind as he certainly had all the ability to be the best defensive SG ever. But was he really the best? I can also think of some guys who have been referred to both as SGs and SFs (like Artest), but I'm looking for a guy who is more of a true SG.
Nominees...
Jerry West - http://www.sports-photos.com/catalog/images/JerryWest1Clr.tif.jpg
Sidney Moncrief - http://www.wisopinion.com/blogs/sir%20sid.jpg
Michael Cooper - http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAFH021~Michael-Cooper-Photofile-Posters.jpg
Joe Dumars - http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/pr/subs/siexclusive/06/15/pistons.flashback/p1_dumars_all.jpg
Michael Jordan - http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Magic-Johnson-Michael-Jordan-Photofile-Photograph-C10125462.jpeg
Kobe Bryant - http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2008/01-28/lakers28fsf_400.jpg
plz tell me why the **** are u putting Kobe in top defensive guards of all time?
he aint even top 10 in the nba right now!
TmacsRockets
10-03-2008, 04:29 PM
Hey...do you by any chance have the DPOY voting from '91 and '92. I've been searching for that for a while but can't find it. Where did Jordan finish those 2 years?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16D4DCduxVA&mode=related&search=
At the 1:22-1:32 mark they mention that Jordan was voted #1 by coaches and #2 by the media and thus Hakeem got it in 1993.
Mechanixxxx
10-03-2008, 04:57 PM
As great of a defender as MJ was, would he be able to guard himself if he was cloned?
*head explodes*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6WQLvRvtjs
He already tried...and he couldnt XD
Godfather
10-03-2008, 05:59 PM
When you think of great defensive players, you generally think of forwards and centers and not guards (probably because guards are more dynamic offensive positions and very difficult to guard) and I think this is especially true with shooting guards. Shooting guards generate a lot of offense, they are very quick, they are great ball-handlers, they can shoot well (usually), drive well (usually), and they are some of the best athletes on the court. When I was trying to think of all-time great defensive shooting guards I had a lot of trouble. Jordan certainly comes to mind as he certainly had all the ability to be the best defensive SG ever. But was he really the best? I can also think of some guys who have been referred to both as SGs and SFs (like Artest), but I'm looking for a guy who is more of a true SG.
Nominees...
Jerry West - http://www.sports-photos.com/catalog/images/JerryWest1Clr.tif.jpg
Sidney Moncrief - http://www.wisopinion.com/blogs/sir%20sid.jpg
Michael Cooper - http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAFH021%7EMichael-Cooper-Photofile-Posters.jpg
Joe Dumars - http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/pr/subs/siexclusive/06/15/pistons.flashback/p1_dumars_all.jpg
Michael Jordan - http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Magic-Johnson-Michael-Jordan-Photofile-Photograph-C10125462.jpeg
Kobe Bryant - http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2008/01-28/lakers28fsf_400.jpg
How can you put Kobe next to Cooper and Jerry. I am embarrassed for you child.
1987_Lakers
10-03-2008, 06:53 PM
How can you put Kobe next to Cooper and Jerry. I am embarrassed for you child.
Name a SG that is better than Kobe defensively that I didn't nominate.
Jasper
10-03-2008, 07:45 PM
Here it is :
1) Jordan
2) Dumar
3) Glove
4) Sidney Moncrief
5) Drexler
honorable mention -
Clyde Frazier
jo jo White
Denis Johnson
1987_Lakers
10-03-2008, 07:59 PM
Here it is :
1) Jordan
2) Dumar
3) Glove
4) Sidney Moncrief
5) Drexler
honorable mention -
Clyde Frazier
jo jo White
Denis Johnson
Clyde Drexler a better defender than Kobe? LOL. Jojo White never even made All-Defensive 1st or 2nd team and Dennis Johnson and Walt Frazier were point guards.
Jasper
10-03-2008, 08:03 PM
better tell everyone , Sidney handled the ball as much as the glove
G-train
10-03-2008, 08:18 PM
Kobe has been the best defensive SG since Jordan retired. I'm not bias. It's a fact.
Raja Bell is a better defender... but its close.
I'd say Bowen is above Kobe in terms of being the best defensive SG in the last 5-6 years. Bowen, despite being listed as an SF lately, has always taken the tough SG's.
bjtrdff
10-03-2008, 08:32 PM
Jordan. Done.
Phil would never ask Jordan to guard Rajon Rondo in the finals.
Phil would never ask Jordan to guard Rajon Rondo in the finals.
That's because Jordan would be guarding either Ray Allen or Paul Pierce. What made him and Scottie Pippen so good was because they were both very athletic players that could guard just about any shooting guard or small forward. Jordan and Pippen could switch and still limit the opposing player to a certain number of points.
Jordan is the best defensive shooting guard in terms of statistics. He was a 6'5" shooting guard that could average 3 SPG and 1.5 BPG. If you're talking about putting up intangibles, Joe Dumars would win that in my opinion. Dumars was an excellent defender that often gave Jordan trouble and Jordan even admitted this. Dumars provided many intangibles which did not appear on the scoresheet. Dumars made quite a number of All-Defensive teams and rightfully so. He was quite underrated because he played with Isiah Thomas.
Lakers (KB24)
10-04-2008, 05:10 PM
Phil would never ask Jordan to guard Rajon Rondo in the finals.
wow. dumbass.
anyways, i think the best defensive shooting guard of all time would have to be scottie pippen. he consistently brought it at the defensive end and the same can't be said about jordan. michael played great defense, don't get me wrong, but there were times near the end of his career where michael only played defense in the 4th quarters.
however, if michael jordan had played a lesser role on the offensive end during his years with the bulls, he would probably be considered the best defensive shooting guard ever.
wow. dumbass.
anyways, i think the best defensive shooting guard of all time would have to be scottie pippen. he consistently brought it at the defensive end and the same can't be said about jordan. michael played great defense, don't get me wrong, but there were times near the end of his career where michael only played defense in the 4th quarters.
however, if michael jordan had played a lesser role on the offensive end during his years with the bulls, he would probably be considered the best defensive shooting guard ever.
Scottie was a SF, not a SG, and he almost exclusively guarded SF's during his career with Chicago. So no, Scottie is not the best defensive SG ever because he was never a SG.
Jordan, even in 1998 at age 35, had more defensive impact on games than almost any wing player today has. Go watch the Indiana series from '98 for evidence. Clamping down on lightning quick Travis Best when he was burning Kerr/Harper; stopping 2-on-1 and 3-on-1 breaks repeatedly; denying Jalen Rose time and time again in isos and post ups; disrupting post play from the weak and strong side; making game saving blocks on perimeter rotations. You're crazy.
Scottie was a SF, not a SG, and he almost exclusively guarded SF's during his career with Chicago. So no, Scottie is not the best defensive SG ever because he was never a SG.
Jordan, even in 1998 at age 35, had more defensive impact on games than almost any wing player today has. Go watch the Indiana series from '98 for evidence. Clamping down on lightning quick Jamal Tinsley when he was burning Kerr/Harper; stopping 2-on-1 and 3-on-1 breaks repeatedly; denying Jalen Rose time and time again in isos and post ups; disrupting post play from the weak and strong side. You're crazy.
Jordan's defense was huge in that series. When the Pacers won games 3 and 4, Jordan stepped up his game and provided excellent all-around defense, in addition to his scoring. With the exception of their series against the Bulls in 1992, this series was the Bulls' toughest one during any of their three-peats.
Lakers (KB24)
10-04-2008, 05:21 PM
Scottie was a SF, not a SG, and he almost exclusively guarded SF's during his career with Chicago. So no, Scottie is not the best defensive SG ever because he was never a SG.
Jordan, even in 1998 at age 35, had more defensive impact on games than almost any wing player today has. Go watch the Indiana series from '98 for evidence. Clamping down on lightning quick Jamal Tinsley when he was burning Kerr/Harper; stopping 2-on-1 and 3-on-1 breaks repeatedly; denying Jalen Rose time and time again in isos and post ups; disrupting post play from the weak and strong side; making game saving blocks on perimeter rotations. You're crazy.
jamaal tinsley wasn't even in the nba during the 1998 season. so i guess you're the crazy one lol.
jamaal tinsley wasn't even in the nba during the 1998 season. so i guess you're the crazy one lol.
Wrong name. I meant Travis Best. My bad - had my Indy PG's confused.
TmacsRockets
10-04-2008, 05:35 PM
jamaal tinsley wasn't even in the nba during the 1998 season. so i guess you're the crazy one lol.
Travis Best he means.
Lakers (KB24)
10-04-2008, 05:38 PM
Wrong name. I meant Travis Best. My bad - had my Indy PG's confused.
lol yeah i figured that's who you meant. i'm pretty sure i could guard jamaal tinsley. it's too bad he's been injury prone and suffered from a disease called dumbassism, he looked good his rookie year.
2LeTTeRS
10-05-2008, 02:48 AM
Name a SG that is better than Kobe defensively that I didn't nominate.
Don't feel bad, people just really do't like Kobe here so even if you rank him amog all-time greats they feel offended. I wish people would grow up, nobody has listed him as there pick for best all-time and hes clearly no higher than #4 but can be argued as high as that.
Perezident
10-05-2008, 12:02 PM
Doug Christie easily should be mentioned in this thread right?
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