Pippen or Nash, who is better?

[TmacsRockets]

Who you think is better?

[Jimmy2k8]

What kind of question is this? :oldlol: I'd take Pippen.

[big baller]

Who you think is better?

pippen.................

[CelticForce1349]

Dude....you are just plain out of order.












Damn. I wonder just how many people I can put on ignore status before the thing breaks?

[InspiredLebowski]

dreamtmacyao?

[worldbefree]

who is better a SF or PG?

[Scott Pippen]

:violin:

[Loki]

Nash is without question better offensively -- far better shooter, far better passer/playmaker, more able to create his own offense than Pippen (believe it or not). He's also a clutch mofo, which Pippen wasn't. What matters here is whether you think Pippen's defensive impact and rebounding is enough to offset all that Nash has in his favor. I'm not sure. I guess it'd depend on who else you have.

[highwhey]

whats with the sudden decrease of iq on ish members?

seems like within the past month, the average ish member's iq went from 90 to -10...

[Valliant13]

As a Patriotic Canadian...huge Steve Nash fan, who feels his amazing shooting is underrated...and that he's one of best passers in NBA history: it's Pippen, and it's not even close.

Steve is arguably a better (though less versatile) offensive player. On defensive it's like comparing Jarod Collin's offense to Wilt Chamberlin: Nash is a liability, Pippen a top 3 all time defensive player. To be an all time great player, you must be a complete player. It's an absurd question.

[ronnymac]

dreamtmacyao?
LOL. I SUSPECTED AS MUCH. i knew its the yao-only-fan clown when he had yao in the top 5 players.

[Valliant13]

Nash is without question better offensively -- far better shooter, far better passer/playmaker, more able to create his own offense than Pippen (believe it or not). He's also a clutch mofo, which Pippen wasn't. What matters here is whether you think Pippen's defensive impact and rebounding is enough to offset all that Nash has in his favor. I'm not sure. I guess it'd depend on who else you have.

For Nash to excel he needs to be in specific system, with a very specific type of players around him (Great shooters that can spread the floor, strong defensive wing players to compensate for him). He is fantastic in this setting, but even then it involves a coach having to hide his defensive weakness.

You could put prime Pippen on any team in the league, as it is currently constituted, and it would get better. Significantly. Pippen adds in more areas, and takes nothing off the table. He's not an ideal first option (though neither is Nash), but he is likely the best 2nd option of all time.

Nash is without question better offensively -- far better shooter, far better passer/playmaker, more able to create his own offense than Pippen (believe it or not). He's also a clutch mofo, which Pippen wasn't. What matters here is whether you think Pippen's defensive impact and rebounding is enough to offset all that Nash has in his favor. I'm not sure. I guess it'd depend on who else you have.

A Jordan groupie trying to downplay Pippen, pathetic.

[Loki]

Steve is arguably a better (though less versatile) offensive player. On defensive it's like comparing Jarod Collin's offense to Wilt Chamberlin: Nash is a liability, Pippen a top 3 all time defensive player. To be an all time great player, you must be a complete player. It's an absurd question.

Nash is not "arguably" a better offensive player than Pippen -- he's flat out a better offensive player than Pippen. Better shooter, better passer/playmaker, better clutch player, better big game player offensively.

[brandonislegend]

someone post the mccain gif. that cures the thread

[BIZARRO]

Prime Pippen's overall floor game impact is comfortably > than Nash.

In fact, I think this thread really is kind of insulting to Pippen. :confusedshrug:

[lakerfreak]

Nash is without question better offensively -- far better shooter, far better passer/playmaker, more able to create his own offense than Pippen (believe it or not). He's also a clutch mofo, which Pippen wasn't. What matters here is whether you think Pippen's defensive impact and rebounding is enough to offset all that Nash has in his favor. I'm not sure. I guess it'd depend on who else you have.
its also hard to compare their careers because pippen actually led the bulls to an ECF appearance I believe.

Bulls were still legit with pippen as the number 1 man.

[Loki]

its also hard to compare their careers because pippen actually led the bulls to an ECF appearance I believe.

Bulls were still legit with pippen as the number 1 man.

Never said otherwise. I laid out my opinions pretty clearly. It was the Semis, not the ECF, btw.

[psyentist]

It isn't simply that Pippen was a better defender than Nash, it's also that Nash is a TERRIBLE defender.

I give Pippens superb two-way play the edge over Nash's offensive brilliance

[RonySeikalyFTW]

Easily Pippen. We'll get a chance this season to see how effective Nash is without D'Antoni's offense, oh wait... we saw that when Nash was in Dallas.

Nash's legacy will be ruining the credibility of the MVP award.

[mattreis62]

3 possibilites

Nash is being extremely overrated
Pippen is being extremely underrated
This thread is some kind of joke I'm not in on

When will people realize that there are two sides on a basketball court?

It isn't simply that Pippen was a better defender than Nash, it's also that Nash is a TERRIBLE defender.

I give Pippens superb two-way play the edge over Nash's offensive brilliance

Please you're acting like he's Magic Johnson or something, where was this offensive brilliance in Dallas? He is just in a great situation in Phoenix, while Pippen never had an opportunity to lead his team as the go to guy, when he did for those 2 years in Chicago he did just fine.

We're comparing an overrated PG to an underrated, under-appreciated hall of fame player, and Loki solidified my reasoning with his under-appreciation for what Pippne brought to his team. (Don't even want to call it his team, since his team starts and ends with Jordan)

Bulls won like what 50+ games without Jordan, so we can clearly see by those results that Jordan had PLENTY of help on those dynasty Bulls years, he didn't achieve jack **** on his own. Guys like Loki will do everything in their power to belittle the rest of the basketball world, so Jordan has the spotlight.

[guy]

Pippen has become very overrated on this board, but he still wins this thread hands down IMO. If Steve Nash had played like he did from 05-07 for his whole career, then this would be arguable, but he didn't, so its Pippen easily.

[guy]

[QUOTE=

[iamgine]

Scottie Pippen's Place in Basketball History

By David Friedman

..."It is interesting and revealing that teammates, opponents and coaches consistently praise Pippen. Phil Jackson, his coach with the six-time champion Chicago Bulls, declares, 'Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league.' Former teammate and current Bulls coach Bill Cartwright flatly states that Pippen 'was as much a part of winning the championships as MJ. I don't think it would have gotten done without him.'

Last year, Sacramento Kings star Chris Webber declared, 'Pip is the most underrated player in the game.' Around the same time, Portland Trail Blazers' assistant Jim Lynam called Pippen 'an indescribably great player,' adding 'I knew the guy was good, but I had no idea how good.'

Memphis Grizzlies coach Hubie Brown breaks it down scientifically: 'He's 6-8 and he can see over the defense, which is a major advantage for a point guard. He also doesn't rush anything. You don't see Portland running back downcourt and forcing threes. You don't see them trying to get the ball in the paint and wasting so much time that two options of a play are already gone. He has a presence.'

The Oregonian selected the 37-year old Pippen as the midseason MVP of the resurgent 2002-03 Blazers: 'Statistics don't tell the whole story with Pippen, whose ability to guard anyone from Atlanta Hawks power forward Shareef Abdur-Rahim to San Antonio Spurs point guard Tony Parker to Boston Celtics small forward Paul Pierce has given the Blazers incredible versatility.'"

The Chicago Tribune's Sam Smith covered Pippen's entire career with the Bulls. One quote in particular stands out from this column:

"Jordan always felt Pippen was something special," longtime Bulls assistant Tex Winter said. "Michael realized how easy it was to play with him and how he helped make his teammates better. It's often said Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen needed Jordan. I'm not sure Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan."

[gpfanz]

Nash. 2X MVPS :roll:

[JtotheIzzo]

Nash. 2X MVPS :roll:

so he didn't deserve them, who deserved his first one? Shaq? he sat out the last month or so of the season. In Nash's second MVP he actually did better, but we have been down this road before...

Pippen is the correct answer, being Robin is a lot better than many other comic book characters so to speak, and Jordan wouldn't be GOAT without Pippen.

but Pippen wouldn't be Pippen without Jordan, they have a symbiotic relationship. Jordan could have been Jordan with a handful of other players (long athletic swingmen who can defend three positions) but he had Pippen and because of that Pippen is Pippen and MJ is MJ.


Nash is a better shooter, ballhandler, passer, which in turn makes him a better offensive player, but Pippen has won and to me that trumps all.

Pippen used to be a b*tch though, lets not forget his 'migraine' and everything else, he did pu$$ out of a deciding game, something Nash would not have done.

So for anyone who says it is far and away Pippen, get off the crack, it is a lot closer than you think, Nash is actually better but Pippen has won, and at the end of the day:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I

[DouXer4ouR]

Just imagine Nash and Jordan on the same team..IMO It would be more unstoppable then Pippen and Jordan, which seems pretty crazy because it is. Overall this is a dumb topic, but I would really like to see what Nash and Jordan could do on a court. It would be an opposing coaches nightmare to try to come up with plays for defensive stops.

[Maniak]

Im a huge Nash fan, and Pippen is clearly better.

Please go kill yourself Tmacsrockets

[gpfanz]

so he didn't deserve them, who deserved his first one? Shaq? he sat out the last month or so of the season. In Nash's second MVP he actually did better, but we have been down this road before...

So for anyone who says it is far and away Pippen, get off the crack, it is a lot closer than you think, Nash is actually better but Pippen has won, and at the end of the day:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I

I love Nash actually. The rolling smiley is just something that i put to make the line eye catching :cheers:

[BIZARRO]

Scottie Pippen's Place in Basketball History

By David Friedman

..."It is interesting and revealing that teammates, opponents and coaches consistently praise Pippen. Phil Jackson, his coach with the six-time champion Chicago Bulls, declares, 'Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league.' Former teammate and current Bulls coach Bill Cartwright flatly states that Pippen 'was as much a part of winning the championships as MJ. I don't think it would have gotten done without him.'

Last year, Sacramento Kings star Chris Webber declared, 'Pip is the most underrated player in the game.' Around the same time, Portland Trail Blazers' assistant Jim Lynam called Pippen 'an indescribably great player,' adding 'I knew the guy was good, but I had no idea how good.'

Memphis Grizzlies coach Hubie Brown breaks it down scientifically: 'He's 6-8 and he can see over the defense, which is a major advantage for a point guard. He also doesn't rush anything. You don't see Portland running back downcourt and forcing threes. You don't see them trying to get the ball in the paint and wasting so much time that two options of a play are already gone. He has a presence.'

The Oregonian selected the 37-year old Pippen as the midseason MVP of the resurgent 2002-03 Blazers: 'Statistics don't tell the whole story with Pippen, whose ability to guard anyone from Atlanta Hawks power forward Shareef Abdur-Rahim to San Antonio Spurs point guard Tony Parker to Boston Celtics small forward Paul Pierce has given the Blazers incredible versatility.'"

The Chicago Tribune's Sam Smith covered Pippen's entire career with the Bulls. One quote in particular stands out from this column:

"Jordan always felt Pippen was something special," longtime Bulls assistant Tex Winter said. "Michael realized how easy it was to play with him and how he helped make his teammates better. It's often said Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen needed Jordan. I'm not sure Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan."


Yes, good post. Much of it is true.

But the BS parts are highlighted. Cartwright and Smith have a bigger axe to grind with MJ than Paul Bunyan.

And the last line of the Tex Winter quote is ridiculous.

I love Pip as much as, in fact much more than the next guy, but he OFTEN disappeared in crunch time.

[guy]

Just imagine Nash and Jordan on the same team..IMO It would be more unstoppable then Pippen and Jordan, which seems pretty crazy because it is. Overall this is a dumb topic, but I would really like to see what Nash and Jordan could do on a court. It would be an opposing coaches nightmare to try to come up with plays for defensive stops.

Not really. Nash is a great scorer, playmaker, and clutch player. The Bulls don't really need that with Jordan and the triangle offense. Triangle offense didn't really need a great PG, and they're not going to need Nash for big shots, when they have Jordan. Plus I don't think Nash is going to make Jordan an even better scorer, maybe some of the others, but nobody else on those teams was as talented or athletic as Amare or Marion. What does happen though is a huge downgrade in defense.

[ihatetimthomas]

If Nash is playing under Don Nelson, Mike Dantoni, then I take Nash easily. In a fast paced offense, Nash is much more important than Pippen. But in any other offense and any other team, I would take Pippens services. It really depends on what you need for your team. Legitimate pg's are hard to come by in this league. It wouldnt be insane for one to pick Nash over Pip. But for me personally, I love Pip and I think he would fit any system, even a run and gun system. Give me Pip. He can do it all and he can handle the rock. He was a defensive nightmare

[97 bulls]

first you cant really compare the two offensivly cuz of the totally different offenses the two played in. the uptempo offense nash played in is indicative of his stats. pip played in a structured offense which is going to lower his offensive output. if pip played a more uptempo offense his stats would be 23-25 ppg, 7-9 rbds, 7-8 asst. cuz of the more shot oppotunuties a fast pace offense provides. and obviously, in a structured offense, nashs offensive output would decline.

defensively its no contest. no matter what kind of system you play in defense is defense. and pip was great at it and nash isnt.

some people disrespect pip so much its rediculous. but those people obviously dont play, basketball. they only watch "tapes" (of one player only). and their opinions on topics like these should be taken with "a grain of salt".

[Loki]

they only watch "tapes" (of one player only). and their opinions on topics like these should be taken with "a grain of salt".

Yeah, my a$$. :oldlol: "So much disrespect," he says. Wanna know what disrespect is? A poster, who shall remain nameless, who actually thinks Pippen was as good as Bird.

In short: gtfo.

[RonySeikalyFTW]

Scottie Pippen is one of the most polarizing players in the history of the NBA. He's either the most overrated or underrated player ever, depending upon who you ask. I happen to find him very underrated.

Ask MJ what kind of player Pippen was. Ask MJ if he would've traded Pip for any other player in the league. You can say that MJ made Pip relevant in the discussion of great players, that MJ made Scottie Pippen a star. And that's true to a degree because Pip wouldn't have won 6 rings without MJ. But I doubt MJ would've won 6 rings without Pip. Fact is, Scottie was able to mold his game to be the perfect compliment to Michael. That cannot be overlooked. People think Pippen just fit as the perfect Jordan teammate like a piece to a puzzle, but that's not the case. Pippen had to adjust and sacrifice parts of his game to make himself the perfect piece.

Pippen had his weaknesses offensively. He wasn't your prototypical scoring small forward as he was a point guard trapped in a 3's body. He suffered horrible shooting and scoring droughts. He didn't really have a post game. But what he did have was unparralled. For my money, there was no greater perimiter defender in NBA history than Scottie Pippen. For my money, there was no greater point-forward in NBA history than Scottie Pippen.

MJ certainly helped Pip. But who knows how Jordan's legacy would be viewed if he didn't have Scottie Pippen.

[iamgine]

Yes, good post. Much of it is true.

But the BS parts are highlighted. Cartwright have a bigger axe to grind with MJ than Paul Bunyan.

This is exactly why what Cartwright said is true.


And the last line of the Tex Winter quote is ridiculous.



You should ask him what he mean then, cause it's Tex Winter. This is the guy who re-invented the triangle offense and interacted with MJ and Pippen daily.

[imdaman99]

Pippen could do it all. He is probably one of the only players ever who could have the potential to have a quintuplet double. lol yeah I know it would never happen but he could score 10, grab 10 rebs, 10 assists, 10 blocks, 10 steals. Maybe Olajuwon too or D Robinson. But Pippen with his wiry frame could do that. And this is coming from a Knicks/Kobe fan. I hate the guy basically, but I recognize him as a great player.

Pippens jockstrap > Nash

[Loki]

This is exactly why what Cartwright said is true.



You should ask him what he mean then, cause it's Tex Winter. This is the guy who re-invented the triangle offense and interacted with MJ and Pippen daily.

Pippen was not as important to those championship teams as Jordan. Period. Anyone who denies this, or tries to equivocate or be cute in some way, is deluding themselves.

You have a better case saying that Shaq and Kobe were equally important than that Pippen and Jordan were equally important.

[iamgine]

now i see what 97 bulls mean :roll:

[Loki]

now i see what 97 bulls mean :roll:

You see what 97 Bulls means? 97 Bulls has his head so far up his a$$ that he has stated that Pippen was as good and valuable as Bird. I don't need to say anything more.

And what do you see? That people refuse to concede that Pippen was as valuable and important as Jordan? News flash: he wasn't. He was very valuable, but not as valuable as Jordan. Stating a truth isn't irrational; those stating otherwise are being irrational, just as you are.

I mean, really -- anyone who asserts that Pippen was "just as important to those championship teams" as Jordan needs to have their head examined. That goes for Cartwright, Winter, 97 Bulls, or iamgine.

[iamgine]

:roll:

97 bulls might be wrong about a lot of things, but he's spot on about Loki.

[Loki]

:roll:

97 bulls might be wrong about a lot of things, but he's spot on about Loki.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. I'm sure it makes you feel like you didn't just spout nonsense in this topic. :oldlol:

[imdaman99]

Pippen was extremely valuable to the Bulls winning championships. Remember he got them started, shutting down Magic in the 91 finals. Who knows, maybe the Lakers win that finals with Magic dominating and the Bulls never become the dynasty we know them as. What I'm saying is, of course MJ was more valuable than Scottie. But I'm not sure if the Bulls would have ever won without Scottie.

Before everyone jumps on me, relax. Its likely they would have still won. But 6 titles I doubt. We will never know, so its all good :hammerhead:

[Loki]

Pippen was extremely valuable to the Bulls winning championships. Remember he got them started, shutting down Magic in the 91 finals.

He actually only guarded Magic for about half the series (Jordan guarded him the other 50%+ of the time, including all of game 1, half of game 3, 2/3 of game 4, and all of game 5). And neither of them shut down Magic regardless.


Who knows, maybe the Lakers win that finals with Magic dominating and the Bulls never become the dynasty we know them as. What I'm saying is, of course MJ was more valuable than Scottie. But I'm not sure if the Bulls would have ever won without Scottie.

Yeah, without Pippen and with no replacement at all (that is, with just Jordan/Grant/Paxson) they likely don't win. With an all-star level replacement, they still win. Maybe not 6, but at least a few. With an all-star level big man, especially an all-time defender like Mutombo, they win at least 5 imo.

[iamgine]

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. I'm sure it makes you feel like you didn't just spout nonsense in this topic. :oldlol:

Loki vs Tex Winter :roll: :roll: :roll:


those people obviously dont play basketball. they only watch "tapes" (of one player only). and their opinions on topics like these should be taken with "a grain of salt".

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I HATE these out-of-position comparisons!
Why compare a PG to a SF, even if that SF was a "point-forward". it's silly.

and, yes, Pippen was absolutely CRITICAL to all of the Bulls successes. MJ would not have won squat without Pippen, obviously. If Pippen was replaced by another allstar, MAYBE they would have won some championships, but that is mere speculation.

[TmacsRockets]

Jordan used to save Pippen all the time. Once Jordan left Jamal Mashburn scored 50 on prime Pippen. Pippen's defense was overrated because Jordan always protected him.

Really Pippen was overrated in general. Tell me how you got 6 titles, but can never manage to get a finals mvp and then in two finals you average around 15 ppg and shoot less than 40%?

Hell even Tony Parker was able to get a finals mvp from Duncan.

[ihatetimthomas]

Jordan used to save Pippen all the time. Once Jordan left Jamal Mashburn scored 50 on prime Pippen. Pippen's defense was overrated because Jordan always protected him.

Really Pippen was overrated in general. Tell me how you got 6 titles, but can never manage to get a finals mvp and then in two finals you average around 15 ppg and shoot less than 40%?

Hell even Tony Parker was able to get a finals mvp from Duncan.

Maybe because he was playing with the GOAT???

[Mikaiel]

Jordan used to save Pippen all the time. Once Jordan left Jamal Mashburn scored 50 on prime Pippen. Pippen's defense was overrated because Jordan always protected him.

Really Pippen was overrated in general. Tell me how you got 6 titles, but can never manage to get a finals mvp and then in two finals you average around 15 ppg and shoot less than 40%?

Hell even Tony Parker was able to get a finals mvp from Duncan.

Maybe, just maybe, really hypothetical, there's a slight possibility that says more about MJ than Pippen ...

[Killer_Instinct]

Wow :oldlol:

[imdaman99]

Jordan used to save Pippen all the time. Once Jordan left Jamal Mashburn scored 50 on prime Pippen. Pippen's defense was overrated because Jordan always protected him.

Really Pippen was overrated in general. Tell me how you got 6 titles, but can never manage to get a finals mvp and then in two finals you average around 15 ppg and shoot less than 40%?

Hell even Tony Parker was able to get a finals mvp from Duncan.
I know its a moot point, but guaranteed if the Rockets had Pippen in his prime rather than Tmac, they would advance past the 1st round :lol

[AItheAnswer3]

Offensively Nash is better than Pippen. Defensively Pippen is much better than Nash. Pippen is a top 5 all-time perimeter defender and he has also shown he can lead a team. Take out Pippen from the Bulls and they dont win a single ring. On the other hand, Nash has never been to the finals.

[TmacsRockets]

I know its a moot point, but guaranteed if the Rockets had Pippen in his prime rather than Tmac, they would advance past the 1st round :lol

No we wouldn't have. Tmac is soo much better than Pippen that it isn't even funny. comparing Pippen to T-mac is like comparing Kevin Johnson to Magic Johnson.

[AItheAnswer3]

No we wouldn't have. Tmac is soo much better than Pippen that it isn't even funny. comparing Pippen to T-mac is like comparing Kevin Johnson to Magic Johnson.
:wtf:

[Loki]

Gotta love all the idiots talking about counterfactuals. "If Pippen wasn't there, the Bulls don't win one ring!" Really? Can I borrow your crystal ball? :oldlol:

These same idiots will then turn around and chastise others for suggesting that the Bulls would have won with another all-star (especially a big man) in Pippen's stead, since "no one will ever know." Meanwhile, they're engaging in the same exact sort of speculation. Rich. :oldlol:

[Loki]

Loki vs Tex Winter :roll: :roll: :roll:

More like "Tex Winter vs. common sense and every single objective measure available."

[danumber88]

:violin:

:applause:

greatest one post answer for this thread.

[iamgine]

More like "Loki vs common sense"
1st thing you said right :roll:

[Loki]

1st thing you said right :roll:

:oldlol:

Hah, you got me there -- I done screwed up. :D I obviously meant "Tex Winter vs. common sense." :oldlol:

[TmacsRockets]

This is what Pippen does in crucial moments.

http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-score-1990-eastern-conference-finals-game-7.php

1-10 in a freaking game 7 with Grant going 3-17.

Jordan was the only one to play well.

[AItheAnswer3]

This is what Pippen does in crucial moments.

http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-score-1990-eastern-conference-finals-game-7.php

1-10 in a freaking game 7 with Grant going 3-17.

Jordan was the only one to play well.

Pippen>McLady

[2LeTTeRS]

No we wouldn't have. Tmac is soo much better than Pippen that it isn't even funny. comparing Pippen to T-mac is like comparing Kevin Johnson to Magic Johnson.

You serious? T Mac is more talented, but if I have the choice of T Mac of Pip, I take Pip 8 out of 10 times. T Mac is a better scorer, but at times doesn't play D at all, takes bad shots, and misses too many games which results in tough playoff match-ups. He's been out of Orlando for years and stil hasn't won squat, whereas Pip won 6 titles. T Mac has no argument over Pippen.

[iamgine]

:oldlol:

Hah, you got me there -- I done screwed up. :D I obviously meant "Tex Winter vs. common sense." :oldlol:

you done screwed up from the start. how else would you get 'Mentally unbalanced, biased, Kobe-bashing nutjob of a fan' :roll:

[Scott Pippen]

Gotta love all the idiots talking about counterfactuals. "If Pippen wasn't there, the Bulls don't win one ring!" Really? Can I borrow your crystal ball? :oldlol:

These same idiots will then turn around and chastise others for suggesting that the Bulls would have won with another all-star (especially a big man) in Pippen's stead, since "no one will ever know." Meanwhile, they're engaging in the same exact sort of speculation. Rich. :oldlol:

agree it is double standard and even I do not go that far to agree with bolded statement, but Pip was very difficult to replace. What he brought to the team is someone that makes Jordan life much easier, instead of going against triple and quadruple teams all time like 1987-88. Both sacrificed individual game to work together and win 6 rings in the equal opportunity offense, that is why they are the GOAT duo to me. Of course MJ may win with great big man in Pippen's place like Shaq, Hakeem, etc, but not 6 times. Jordan was best as the first option on offense. Even in '98 when they were old I remember Isiah used to say "They fit like hand in glove. Jordan dominates offensively, and Pippen dominates defensively." Pippen might score 4 points but he is the game's difference maker. You know what to expect from MJ every night. It is not about ability but about who is needed to do what. Pippen was luxury to the Bulls when it comes to winning rings and so was MJ.:applause:

[TmacsRockets]

agree it is double standard and even I do not go that far to agree with bolded statement, but Pip was very difficult to replace. What he brought to the team is someone that makes Jordan life much easier, instead of going against triple and quadruple teams all time like 1987-88. Both sacrificed individual game to work together and win 6 rings in the equal opportunity offense, that is why they are the GOAT duo to me. Of course MJ may win with great big man in Pippen's place like Shaq, Hakeem, etc, but not 6 times. Jordan was best as the first option on offense. Even in '98 when they were old I remember Isiah used to say "They fit like hand in glove. Jordan dominates offensively, and Pippen dominates defensively." Pippen might score 4 points but he is the game's difference maker. You know what to expect from MJ every night. It is not about ability but about who is needed to do what. Pippen was luxury to the Bulls when it comes to winning rings and so was MJ.:applause:

Jordan dominated both ends buddy and was the better defender.

[TmacsRockets]

You serious? T Mac is more talented, but if I have the choice of T Mac of Pip, I take Pip 8 out of 10 times. T Mac is a better scorer, but at times doesn't play D at all, takes bad shots, and misses too many games which results in tough playoff match-ups. He's been out of Orlando for years and stil hasn't won squat, whereas Pip won 6 titles. T Mac has no argument over Pippen.

Pippens' Defense is overrated. Jamal Mashburn scored 50 on him in his prime when Jordan wasn't around. Tmac put up over a 30+ PER. Pippen wouldn't be able to carry that Orlando team to the playoffs. Pippen wasn't good enough.

Oh and you say Pippen never played with anyone dominant like Yao? Well he had Hakeem and Barkley and couldn't get out of the 1st round when the year before he won the title with a 35 year old MJ.

Pippen = Overrated

[stephanieg]

There were several huge playoff games where Pippen shot atrociously. Like, 5-20.

On the other hand, a chair could drop 20 on Nash.

Tough call. I think I'd take Pippen's offense over Nash's defense.

[guy]

agree it is double standard and even I do not go that far to agree with bolded statement, but Pip was very difficult to replace. What he brought to the team is someone that makes Jordan life much easier, instead of going against triple and quadruple teams all time like 1987-88. Both sacrificed individual game to work together and win 6 rings in the equal opportunity offense, that is why they are the GOAT duo to me. Of course MJ may win with great big man in Pippen's place like Shaq, Hakeem, etc, but not 6 times. Jordan was best as the first option on offense. Even in '98 when they were old I remember Isiah used to say "They fit like hand in glove. Jordan dominates offensively, and Pippen dominates defensively." Pippen might score 4 points but he is the game's difference maker. You know what to expect from MJ every night. It is not about ability but about who is needed to do what. Pippen was luxury to the Bulls when it comes to winning rings and so was MJ.:applause:

I see no reason why Jordan wouldn't have won 6 times with Shaq or Hakeem instead of Pippen. In fact I seen no reason why he wouldn't have won even more then 6 times.

[guy]

I HATE these out-of-position comparisons!
Why compare a PG to a SF, even if that SF was a "point-forward". it's silly.

and, yes, Pippen was absolutely CRITICAL to all of the Bulls successes. MJ would not have won squat without Pippen, obviously. If Pippen was replaced by another allstar, MAYBE they would have won some championships, but that is mere speculation.

Well if we assume that Jordan had a good enough player at his side, just like almost every other great player that has won a championship has, then I have no doubt he would've won more titles.

[Loki]

agree it is double standard and even I do not go that far to agree with bolded statement, but Pip was very difficult to replace. What he brought to the team is someone that makes Jordan life much easier, instead of going against triple and quadruple teams all time like 1987-88. Both sacrificed individual game to work together and win 6 rings in the equal opportunity offense, that is why they are the GOAT duo to me. Of course MJ may win with great big man in Pippen's place like Shaq, Hakeem, etc, but not 6 times. Jordan was best as the first option on offense. Even in '98 when they were old I remember Isiah used to say "They fit like hand in glove. Jordan dominates offensively, and Pippen dominates defensively." Pippen might score 4 points but he is the game's difference maker. You know what to expect from MJ every night. It is not about ability but about who is needed to do what. Pippen was luxury to the Bulls when it comes to winning rings and so was MJ.:applause:

See, this is where Pippen becomes overrated. Give Jordan Shaq or Hakeem when they were age 23-32 like Pippen was and they win at least 6 titles, possibly 8 (they'd win in '89 and '90 imo). It is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that Jordan would have no more success with an all-time great big man on Shaq/Hakeem's level than with Pippen.

As for your statement that "Jordan was best as a first option on offense," well, again, you're just going by what actually happened. You really have no clue how Jordan's game would have evolved had he played with a dominant big man. It's just speculation.

I just love how people act like Pippen was the rarest talent in NBA history. :oldlol: I mean, he was a rare talent, and certainly a great player, but when people start saying things like "Jordan wouldn't have won as much with Shaq or Hakeem" and "Pippen was just as, if not more important to those championship teams than Jordan was," it's clear that he's being severely overrated.

I won't even get into 97 Bulls' overrating of Pippen, calling him better than Larry freaking Bird on several occasions. :oldlol: I mean, come on people...

[RonySeikalyFTW]

See, this is where Pippen becomes overrated. Give Jordan Shaq or Hakeem when they were age 23-32 like Pippen was and they win at least 6 titles, possibly 8 (they'd win in '89 and '90 imo). It is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that Jordan would have no more success with an all-time great big man on Shaq/Hakeem's level than with Pippen.

As for your statement that "Jordan was best as a first option on offense," well, again, you're just going by what actually happened. You really have no clue how Jordan's game would have evolved had he played with a dominant big man. It's just speculation.

I just love how people act like Pippen was the rarest talent in NBA history. :oldlol: I mean, he was a rare talent, and certainly a great player, but when people start saying things like "Jordan wouldn't have won as much with Shaq or Hakeem" and "Pippen was just as, if not more important to those championship teams than Jordan was," it's clear that he's being severely overrated.

I won't even get into 97 Bulls' overrating of Pippen, calling him better than Larry freaking Bird on several occasions. :oldlol: I mean, come on people...

The simple fact is no one knows how MJ would've done with another star because it didn't happen. We do know he won 6 rings with Pippen. Don't underestimate how hard it was to play alongside Jordan. You had to have some thick skin. You also had to guard the opposing team's best perimeter player so that MJ could conserve some of his energy for offense. That was critical, and should not be overlooked when discussing potential Jordan teammates. While I no doubt think Hakeem was a better player than Pippen, I can't say Hakeem would've fit better with Jordan.

[Maniak]

Jordan dominated both ends buddy and was the better defender.

What the hell are you on son? Must be some pretty strong stuff to think Jordan is a better defender

[Indian guy]

You also had to guard the opposing team's best perimeter player so that MJ could conserve some of his energy for offense. That was critical, and should not be overlooked when discussing potential Jordan teammates.

:(

The myth that never dies. For one, MJ was a considered a better defensive player than Pippen for AT LEAST 6 of the 9 seasons they played together. 2) Pippen almost exclusively guarded SFs. If the opposition's best perimeter player wasn't an SF, Pippen didn't guard him except for certain situations(guards in foul trouble, MJ taking a breather). Pippen NEVER took on a star SG right from the outset or guarded him for a game's majority in order to 'spare' MJ or let him conserve energy for offense. That just didn't happen and even when the Bulls were saving MJ for offense(2nd 3peat), it was generally Ron Harper who took the job, not Pippen. Pippen guarded SFs.

As far as Pippen vs. Nash goes, Nash would most definitely be the RIGHT fit for certain teams but on most teams, I'd say Pippen's more rounded game wins out. It's certainly not an unfair comparison, and the fact that most are freaking out in this thread again tells me just how clueless the average NBA poster is about Pippen.

[big baller]

Pippen>McLady

lemme help u out with tht, bro...................

Scottie"pimpin"Pippen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>McLady>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nash

[97 bulls]

Yeah, my a$$. :oldlol: "So much disrespect," he says. Wanna know what disrespect is? A poster, who shall remain nameless, who actually thinks Pippen was as good as Bird.

In short: gtfo.
lol

[97 bulls]

I HATE these out-of-position comparisons!
Why compare a PG to a SF, even if that SF was a "point-forward". it's silly.

and, yes, Pippen was absolutely CRITICAL to all of the Bulls successes. MJ would not have won squat without Pippen, obviously. If Pippen was replaced by another allstar, MAYBE they would have won some championships, but that is mere speculation.
exactly, this isnt a fair compartison.

[97 bulls]

Jordan used to save Pippen all the time. Once Jordan left Jamal Mashburn scored 50 on prime Pippen. Pippen's defense was overrated because Jordan always protected him.

Really Pippen was overrated in general. Tell me how you got 6 titles, but can never manage to get a finals mvp and then in two finals you average around 15 ppg and shoot less than 40%?

Hell even Tony Parker was able to get a finals mvp from Duncan.
one great night by an opponant says no more about pips defense being bad than pip leading the bulls to 55 wins show that jordan wasnt as important to the bulls.

[97 bulls]

No we wouldn't have. Tmac is soo much better than Pippen that it isn't even funny. comparing Pippen to T-mac is like comparing Kevin Johnson to Magic Johnson.

you do understand that the next time tmac is in the semis itll be the first time dont you?

[97 bulls]

Gotta love all the idiots talking about counterfactuals. "If Pippen wasn't there, the Bulls don't win one ring!" Really? Can I borrow your crystal ball? :oldlol:

These same idiots will then turn around and chastise others for suggesting that the Bulls would have won with another all-star (especially a big man) in Pippen's stead, since "no one will ever know." Meanwhile, they're engaging in the same exact sort of speculation. Rich. :oldlol:

wow you contradict yourself. why do you need to borrow someone else crystal ball? didnt you pull out your "crystal ball" when you stated in post 71 that jordan would probably win 8-9 chips with a prime shaq or hakeem? isnt this counterfactual? no one knows. we can speculate and your entitled to your opinion. but dont belittle others for not agreeing with you.

[ForceOfNature]

Pippen, because he's the one with a better legacy and has more rings.

[97 bulls]

and lets put this pippen vs bird comparison to rest. i never said that pip was better. i believe that pip was as good defensivly as bird was on offenesivly. and vice versa. if you feel that this means pip is better than that fine with me. please stop changing my statements loki.

He led his team to 50 wins and won MVP when Pippen was a scrub in his rookie year that didn't do ****. He was the equivalent of what Andrew Bynum was before this past season, i.e. a guy that didn't have much impact at all. Imagine if in a few years people start saying that the only reason Kobe led the horrible Lakers to the playoffs in 06 and 07 is cause of Andrew Bynum. Sounds pretty stupid right?

Jordan played 5 seasons total without Pippen. He was a rookie one year, missed almost the whole season in another year, and for two of those seasons he was in his late 30s-early 40s. For all 5 of those seasons, his team absolutely stunk. And from 88-90, his team was better, but they were still very much carried by Jordan at times making it as far as the ECF, and it wasn't until his teammates all got better and developed some thicker skin that they were able to make it to the next step.

We're not talking about Jordan here, we're talking about Pippen.
We all know how great of a player Jordan was...the point I was making, was MJ didn't win any championships until Pippen established himself as a great player.

[hardcore (fan)]

I hate to admit it but I agree with TMACROCKET that Tracy's best season tops Pippen's best season. However, like TMACROCKET has pointed out MULTIPLE times it's all about stats and Pippen's are better throughout his career and he's more "clutch." Suck that TMAC.

[TmacsRockets]

one great night by an opponant says no more about pips defense being bad than pip leading the bulls to 55 wins show that jordan wasnt as important to the bulls.

Not really he couldn't even got out of round 1 with 2 other top 20 players all time in Barkley and Hakeem when the year before he won with Jordan.

[Loki]

The simple fact is no one knows how MJ would've done with another star because it didn't happen.

Yeah, no sh!t. So how can people say that Jordan wouldn't have won any titles without Pippen, since that too "didn't happen"?


We do know he won 6 rings with Pippen.

And Shaq won 3 with Kobe. No one (except lunatics) asserts that Kobe was equally important on those teams, however.


You also had to guard the opposing team's best perimeter player so that MJ could conserve some of his energy for offense. That was critical, and should not be overlooked when discussing potential Jordan teammates.

Except for the tiny fact that Pippen didn't guard the "best perimeter player," he guarded SF's (with 3 exceptions in 10 years). Period. So if the best perimeter player happened to be a SF, Pippen likely took them (unless he wasn't having success and they switched Jordan onto him). If the best perimeter player was a SG or combo guard (and occasionally a PG), Jordan took them. That's how it worked.


While I no doubt think Hakeem was a better player than Pippen, I can't say Hakeem would've fit better with Jordan.

This is just ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous that people can take this nonsensical "fit well with him" argument and run with it to the point where they'll insist that a top 3 player all-time would not have won an equal or greater number of titles with a top 8 all-time center like Hakeem or Shaq. I mean, the illogic and overrating of Pippen is just out of control. Really.


Must be some pretty strong stuff to think Jordan is a better defender

Way to overstate your point. It's at least arguable either way. I guess you only remember the second three-peat, though, when Jordan was 33-35 years old, and not the first three-peat, when Jordan was the best defender on the team.


It's certainly not an unfair comparison, and the fact that most are freaking out in this thread again tells me just how clueless the average NBA poster is about Pippen.

I agree. They're trying to make Pippen into something he's not. He never even had a fraction of the balls Nash has in big games/moments, for starters.


and lets put this pippen vs bird comparison to rest. i never said that pip was better. i believe that pip was as good defensivly as bird was on offenesivly. and vice versa. if you feel that this means pip is better than that fine with me. please stop changing my statements loki.

You have said that Pippen was as good a player and as valuable a player as Larry Bird. Don't try to deny that you've said that.

[imdaman99]

I see no reason why Jordan wouldn't have won 6 times with Shaq or Hakeem instead of Pippen. In fact I seen no reason why he wouldn't have won even more then 6 times.
You mean to tell me that Jordan wouldnt have retired if he had a dominant center instead of scottie? Get over it, Jordan got bored so he was like meh, let me try baseball. Blame him. He could have had more rings than fingers but he got bored. Wow wheres the killer instinct MJ? WHERE WAS IT???!!! :lol

[imdaman99]

Hey Loki, try and tell me that Scottie wasn't a bad call (was it Hue Hollins?) vs the Knicks from reaching the Conf Finals. Go ahead. What were Scotties numbers that year with MJ being bored and retiring for the 17th time? Were they HOF-like numbers or what? He must have been in the top 10 of like 10 diff categories. Cant remember MJ being in the top 10 other than pts, steals, maybe FT%.

[Loki]

Hey Loki, try and tell me that Scottie wasn't a bad call (was it Hue Hollins?) vs the Knicks from reaching the Conf Finals. Go ahead.

That was in game 5. There were 2 more games played after that -- what happened? And they beat a hobbled Cavs team in the first round who had swept them 4-0 that season and was missing two of their best 3 players. What's your point?


What were Scotties numbers that year with MJ being bored and retiring for the 17th time? Were they HOF-like numbers or what? He must have been in the top 10 of like 10 diff categories. Cant remember MJ being in the top 10 other than pts, steals, maybe FT%.

Wait, surely you're not suggesting that Pippen's numbers are better than Jordan's, are you? :oldlol: And no, Pippen was not "top 10 in 10 different categories." He was top 10 in two categories: points per game (8th) and steals per game (2nd). Jordan had seasons where he finished higher in more different categories than Pippen. So yeah, looks like your memory is shot.

But yes, Pippen's numbers were excellent, just as they were during the first three-peat. Who suggested otherwise?

[RonySeikalyFTW]

:(

The myth that never dies. For one, MJ was a considered a better defensive player than Pippen for AT LEAST 6 of the 9 seasons they played together. 2) Pippen almost exclusively guarded SFs. If the opposition's best perimeter player wasn't an SF, Pippen didn't guard him except for certain situations(guards in foul trouble, MJ taking a breather). Pippen NEVER took on a star SG right from the outset or guarded him for a game's majority in order to 'spare' MJ or let him conserve energy for offense. That just didn't happen and even when the Bulls were saving MJ for offense(2nd 3peat), it was generally Ron Harper who took the job, not Pippen. Pippen guarded SFs.

As far as Pippen vs. Nash goes, Nash would most definitely be the RIGHT fit for certain teams but on most teams, I'd say Pippen's more rounded game wins out. It's certainly not an unfair comparison, and the fact that most are freaking out in this thread again tells me just how clueless the average NBA poster is about Pippen.

OK, I'll try to make this simple:

1. We aren't talking about Jordan vs Pippen defensively. Saying that Pippen took over some of MJ's defensive assignments isn't saying Pippen was the better defender so don't get all butthurt. They were two different defenders. Pip was the more versatile defender because he had more length and close out ability while Jordan had quicker footspeed with stronger hands. MJ was the better man-on-man shut down defender and Pippen was better at disrupting a team's offense. I believe Pippen had one of the highest defensive IQs of all time while Jordan hat a pitbull like determinism when he wanted to.

2. Pippen guarded everyone from Isiah Thomas to Larry Nance to Anthony Mason to Mark Price to Clyde Drexler to Magic Johnson to Charles Barkley to John Stockton to Shawn Kemp to Kevin Johnson to Gary Payton to Tim Hardaway to James Worthy. To say that Pippen usually guarded just the SF is inaccurate. It was common practice for Pippen to be assigned to the other team's primary playmaker in the 4th quarter. This would allow MJ to dominate on offense, there's no denying this. Ron Harper did play great perimeter D during his time in Chicago, but his appearances in 4th quarters were few and far between.

[97 bulls]

OK, I'll try to make this simple:

1. We aren't talking about Jordan vs Pippen defensively. Saying that Pippen took over some of MJ's defensive assignments isn't saying Pippen was the better defender so don't get all butthurt. They were two different defenders. Pip was the more versatile defender because he had more length and close out ability while Jordan had quicker footspeed with stronger hands. MJ was the better man-on-man shut down defender and Pippen was better at disrupting a team's offense. I believe Pippen had one of the highest defensive IQs of all time while Jordan hat a pitbull like determinism when he wanted to.

2. Pippen guarded everyone from Isiah Thomas to Larry Nance to Anthony Mason to Mark Price to Clyde Drexler to Magic Johnson to Charles Barkley to John Stockton to Shawn Kemp to Kevin Johnson to Gary Payton to Tim Hardaway to James Worthy. To say that Pippen usually guarded just the SF is inaccurate. It was common practice for Pippen to be assigned to the other team's primary playmaker in the 4th quarter. This would allow MJ to dominate on offense, there's no denying this. Ron Harper did play great perimeter D during his time in Chicago, but his appearances in 4th quarters were few and far between.
excellent post.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, no sh!t. So how can people say that Jordan wouldn't have won any titles without Pippen, since that too "didn't happen"?



And Shaq won 3 with Kobe. No one (except lunatics) asserts that Kobe was equally important on those teams, however.



Except for the tiny fact that Pippen didn't guard the "best perimeter player," he guarded SF's (with 3 exceptions in 10 years). Period. So if the best perimeter player happened to be a SF, Pippen likely took them (unless he wasn't having success and they switched Jordan onto him). If the best perimeter player was a SG or combo guard (and occasionally a PG), Jordan took them. That's how it worked.



This is just ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous that people can take this nonsensical "fit well with him" argument and run with it to the point where they'll insist that a top 3 player all-time would not have won an equal or greater number of titles with a top 8 all-time center like Hakeem or Shaq. I mean, the illogic and overrating of Pippen is just out of control. Really.



Way to overstate your point. It's at least arguable either way. I guess you only remember the second three-peat, though, when Jordan was 33-35 years old, and not the first three-peat, when Jordan was the best defender on the team.



I agree. They're trying to make Pippen into something he's not. He never even had a fraction of the balls Nash has in big games/moments, for starters.



You have said that Pippen was as good a player and as valuable a player as Larry Bird. Don't try to deny that you've said that.
true, but now your changing from your original accusation. in that debate i was trying to say that bird doesnt have an edge on pip based solely on stats. cuz pip was allways a second and bird was a primary. and that if pip had 10 years as a primary with his d factored in he would be more comparable. similar to the argument you use when someone uses wilts stats to show hes better than jordan.

[TmacsRockets]

Pippen couldn't even got out of round 1 with 2 other top 20 players all time in Barkley and Hakeem when the year before he won with Jordan.

He also never got a finals mvp out of 6 tries. Even Worthy, Cedric Maxwell, Tony Parker and Billups got one in less tries.

[Loki]

OK, I'll try to make this simple:

1. We aren't talking about Jordan vs Pippen defensively. Saying that Pippen took over some of MJ's defensive assignments isn't saying Pippen was the better defender so don't get all butthurt.

No one is getting "butthurt." You're simply mistaken. I have nearly 300 Bulls games on tape and DVD, and have seen at least 50 others on Youtube. Pippen almost exclusively guarded SF's. Period.


2. Pippen guarded everyone from Isiah Thomas to Larry Nance to Anthony Mason to Mark Price to Clyde Drexler to Magic Johnson to Charles Barkley to John Stockton to Shawn Kemp to Kevin Johnson to Gary Payton to Tim Hardaway to James Worthy.

No, no he didn't. Jordan guarded Isiah Thomas at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Mark Price at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Kevin Johnson at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Tim Hardaway at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Payton at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Drexler every single time they matched up save for about 15% of the time in the '92 Finals when Jordan was either on the bench or would switch onto Porter/Ainge if they were burning BJ/Paxson. Pippen never guarded guys like Shawn Kemp or Barkley for any appreciable amount of time (i.e., aside from random switches on defense).

So yeah, you're completely and utterly wrong. Completely. And utterly. Repeating it won't do you any good, because I can tell that all you're doing is regurgitating the prevailing mythos that has somehow developed around Pippen since the end of the Bulls dynasty. Every single thing I said above is 100% true and verifiable. Find me a single game with Pippen guarding Mark Price/Isiah/KJ for even a full quarter and I'll PayPal you $100. I can find several such games for Jordan.


To say that Pippen usually guarded just the SF is inaccurate. It was common practice for Pippen to be assigned to the other team's primary playmaker in the 4th quarter.

Balderdash. I have 300 games on tape. There were 3 exceptions in 10 years to the "Pippen guards SF's" rule: Magic in the '91 Finals, whom he guarded about 50% of the time along with Jordan (and Magic was 6'8" anyway; SF size); 53 year old Mark Jackson in the '98 ECF; and Penny Hardaway in the '96 ECF, whom he guarded about 70% of the time (and Penny was 6'7"; again, SF size). That's it. Three exceptions in 10 years.

Try again.


This would allow MJ to dominate on offense, there's no denying this.

Yes, there is denying this, because you're flat out wrong.

I mean, how can people listen to sh!t like this when it is objectively false? How can you expect people to engage you in rational debate when you're objectively wrong? And then you have the gall to call other people "butthurt" when they point out your clear error. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Pippen couldn't even got out of round 1 with 2 other top 20 players all time in Barkley and Hakeem when the year before he won with Jordan.

He also never got a finals mvp out of 6 tries. Even Worthy, Cedric Maxwell, Tony Parker and Billups got one in less tries.
dude, stop it. pip has six rings and also i believe 4 other ecf appearances. how many times has tmac been to the second round? other than as a fan. that houston team was old.

[Loki]

that houston team was old.

I don't agree with what TMacsRockets is saying, but the '98 Bulls were older than the '99 Rockets as a team.

[97 bulls]

and let me put an end to this pippen isnt clutch non sense.

in the 92 finals it was pip running the second team that brought the bulls back from a 15 point deficit in the 4th qtr of game 6 and win the championship. CLUTCH

hounded mark jackson in the 98 ecf which disrupted the pacers whole offense.CLUTCH

blocked 2 count them 2 charleS smith shot attemts to hold of the knicks in the 93 semis. if he doesnt knicks win game and possibly the series.CLUTCH

had game saving steal in the 97 championship which gave the bulls their 5 championship. CLUTCH

HURT BACK IN 98. CLUTCH

game winning dunk in the 97 playoffs 1st round that put the then washington bullets out of the playoffs. CLUTCH

defense on magic in the 91 finals. CLUTCH

the cool thing is that all of these example exibit pips complete floor game. he has had clutch moment on both offense and defense. these are just a few. so please stop saying he wasnt clutch.

[97 bulls]

I don't agree with what TMacsRockets is saying, but the '98 Bulls were older than the '99 Rockets as a team.
true, but i remember pip saying that that team mainly barkley wasnt serious about winning. the fact is that none of the rockets key players were in their prime. id say that they were closer to how jordan was in his wizards days.

[97 bulls]

pip was more of a rover and could disrupt an offense and defend his man at the same time.

[04mzwach]

I take Pippen based off of championships and defense. I think Pippen gave the results that Nash hasn't ever.

For example: Nash had Dirk and he didn't take advantage of what he had.

Pippen had Jordan and look what happened. I'm not saying that Dirk equals Jordan, but if Nash was as good of a point as people say he is....well, he would have had a couple championships with Dirk. Dirk is a great scorer in the NBA and when he is on, not many can stop him. I'd go far as to say Dirk is a top 15 player in the NBA right now and that is saying a lot. Pippen was a top 15 player easily during his time.

[Loki]

and let me put an end to this pippen isnt clutch non sense.

in the 92 finals it was pip running the second team that brought the bulls back from a 15 point deficit in the 4th qtr of game 6 and win the championship. CLUTCH

I think he had a couple of baskets and a couple of assists in the 4th quarter. Good performance, but definitely not capital CLUTCH. Gimme a break. :oldlol:


hounded mark jackson in the 98 ecf which disrupted the pacers whole offense.CLUTCH

No, not "clutch" -- that's just him being a great defender and doing his job. Next.


blocked 2 count them 2 charleS smith shot attemts to hold of the knicks in the 93 semis. if he doesnt knicks win game and possibly the series.CLUTCH

Jordan chased Starks off a jumper and then recovered to strip Smith on his first attempt. If he doesn't the Knicks win the game and possibly the series. CLUTCH. :oldlol:

But yes, it was a clutch defensive play.


had game saving steal in the 97 championship which gave the bulls their 5 championship. CLUTCH

It was a decent play, but it was an inbounds pass made under duress in the final seconds of the game. A lofting cross-court pass, too. Any player standing there would have made that play.


HURT BACK IN 98. CLUTCH

Gutsy, not clutch. Do you know what clutch means?


game winning dunk in the 97 playoffs 1st round that put the then washington bullets out of the playoffs. CLUTCH

Agreed. It was after Jordan scored 14 points in the final 4:30 to bring them back, but agreed. :D


defense on magic in the 91 finals. CLUTCH

No. Again, that's just being a great defender.


the cool thing is that all of these example exibit pips complete floor game. he has had clutch moment on both offense and defense. these are just a few. so please stop saying he wasnt clutch.

You actually only have like two legitimate things on there. You're using a very broad definition of clutch imo.

[97 bulls]

I think he had a couple of baskets and a couple of assists in the 4th quarter. Good performance, but definitely not capital CLUTCH. Gimme a break. :oldlol:



No, not "clutch" -- that's just him being a great defender and doing his job. Next.



Jordan chased Starks off a jumper and then recovered to strip Smith on his first attempt. If he doesn't the Knicks win the game and possibly the series. CLUTCH. :oldlol:

But yes, it was a clutch defensive play.



It was a decent play, but it was an inbounds pass made under duress in the final seconds of the game. A lofting cross-court pass, too. Any player standing there would have made that play.



Gutsy, not clutch. Do you know what clutch means?



Agreed. It was after Jordan scored 14 points in the final 4:30 to bring them back, but agreed. :D



No. Again, that's just being a great defender.



You actually only have like two legitimate things on there. You're using a very broad definition of clutch imo.
i think you devalue defense. ill give you the injured back in 98 but pip being a great defender and shuting down a player who is third all time in assist is still clutch. along with him doing his job. but this shows your hatred for pip cuz when jordan runs of 14 straight points and a game winner i know you would consider that clutch. or should that be considerd him doing his job?. but pippen doing similar on defense is just him doing his job? wow. and the job he did on magic was clutch cuz he was thrust into that job when jordan got in foul trouble and came through, in the clutch.

obviously pip can really do no right by you without being downgraded. but in my post youll notice that i recalled clutch moments by pippen. not pippens clutch moments according to loki. you really hate pippen i would like to know, did a guy that looks like pippen sleep with your girlfriend? or something.

[imdaman99]

i think you devalue defense. ill give you the injured back in 98 but pip being a great defender and shuting down a player who is third all time in assist is still clutch. along with him doing his job. but this shows your hatred for pip cuz when jordan runs of 14 straight points and a game winner i know you would consider that clutch. or should that be considerd him doing his job?. but pippen doing similar on defense is just him doing his job? wow. and the job he did on magic was clutch cuz he was thrust into that job when jordan got in foul trouble and came through, in the clutch.

obviously pip can really do no right by you without being downgraded. but in my post youll notice that i recalled clutch moments by pippen. not pippens clutch moments according to loki. you really hate pippen i would like to know, did a guy that looks like pippen sleep with your girlfriend? or something.
He just wants the world to believe that Michael Jordan is God. And that he won championships alone. To say that Michael Jordan had help in winning those championships is basically devaluing Michael Jordan's greatness. No way would a God need help in defeating anything. Not a chance.

Get it through your head Loki, no one player could beat a team of 5 in the NBA. Unless you're talking about Wilt Chamberlain playing against a bunch of 6 ft white guys :lol

[Loki]

i think you devalue defense. ill give you the injured back in 98 but pip being a great defender and shuting down a player who is third all time in assist is still clutch.

No, "clutch" refers to things you do towards the end of a game. More broadly, it can in some cases be used to refer to an entire big game performance (e.g., an elimination game). So if Pippen deflected a Mark Jackson pass to an open Reggie Miller with 35 seconds left in the game with Indy down 1, that can be considered clutch. But just the fact that Pippen guarded Jackson for the entire series can't properly be called "clutch."

And it's not that I devalue defense, it's just that that's not how the term is generally used. If it was, other players' "clutch" lists would be a lot longer as well.


along with him doing his job. but this shows your hatred for pip cuz when jordan runs of 14 straight points and a game winner i know you would consider that clutch. or should that be considerd him doing his job?. but pippen doing similar on defense is just him doing his job?

One of these was at the end of the game, one wasn't. Like I said above. That's the difference, and that's the criterion for something being "clutch." Not this artificial offense/defense distinction you're trying to pin on me.


wow. and the job he did on magic was clutch cuz he was thrust into that job when jordan got in foul trouble and came through, in the clutch.

A stretch to be sure, since he started to guard Magic late 1st quarter, but I guess given Jordan's foul trouble you can call it "clutch" in some fashion.

[Loki]

He just wants the world to believe that Michael Jordan is God. And that he won championships alone. To say that Michael Jordan had help in winning those championships is basically devaluing Michael Jordan's greatness. No way would a God need help in defeating anything. Not a chance.

Get it through your head Loki, no one player could beat a team of 5 in the NBA. Unless you're talking about Wilt Chamberlain playing against a bunch of 6 ft white guys :lol

You're clearly dense. Pippen was a fantastic player, and Jordan certainly had more than adequate help. I have made one and only one claim herein related to Pippen's place on that team:

1) That he was not in any way, shape, or form as valuable to those teams as Jordan was.

That's it. So if you're taking issue with me, you're taking issue with a virtually indisputable fact. I have not attempted to denigrate Pippen. The problem is that you guys are trying to act like he's something he wasn't -- namely, equal in importance to a top 3 player all-time. Which is just rubbish, really.

But you just keep knocking down those strawmen if it makes you happy...:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

No, "clutch" refers to things you do towards the end of a game. More broadly, it can in some cases be used to refer to an entire big game performance (e.g., an elimination game). So if Pippen deflected a Mark Jackson pass to an open Reggie Miller with 35 seconds left in the game with Indy down 1, that can be considered clutch. But just the fact that Pippen guarded Jackson for the entire series can't properly be called "clutch."

And it's not that I devalue defense, it's just that that's not how the term is generally used. If it was, other players' "clutch" lists would be a lot longer as well.



One of these was at the end of the game, one wasn't. Like I said above. That's the difference, and that's the criterion for something being "clutch." Not this artificial offense/defense distinction you're trying to pin on me.



A stretch to be sure, since he started to guard Magic late 1st quarter, but I guess given Jordan's foul trouble you can call it "clutch" in some fashion.
i see what your saying but there is different kinds of clutch. a clutch shot a clutch game a clutch defensive play. in other words doing what most people dont expect you to do. all those can be considered clutch. when i played football and we won a close game on a last play or defensive stop, my coach would tell us that the game shouldnt have been that close for the need for a clutch play.

and if youll notice, in a few of the examples i used, you felt the need to include a play from jordan. from one concerned jordan fan to another, i sincerely feel you need to seek professional help. your love for jordan is borderline psychotic. unless jordan was holding pippens hand or moving pip as if he was on a string pip made the play. and there are plenty examples of pip hitting big shots but those stnd out.

[G-train]

Pippen is a top ten 3 man ever and Nash is a top 10 PG ever.
I cant distinguish who is better.

On a side note, Larry Bird could pretend to be Pippen for a game, and actually play better than Pippen plays himself.

[Loki]

Pippen is a top ten 3 man ever and Nash is a top 10 PG ever.
I cant distinguish who is better.

On a side note, Larry Bird could pretend to be Pippen for a game, and actually play better than Pippen plays himself.

Larry Bird would bust a nut all in Pippen's eye -- but that's neither here nor there.

And Pippen is more than a top 10 SF of all-time; more like top 4-7 imo.

[Sir Charles]

Pippen by far

Pippen can Guard All SFs-PGs and destroy them in the perimter also guard some tough PFs.

Pippen can Score, Rebound, Steal from All Areas and Against anyone and also Block

Nash can only Pass and Score. By the way Pippen is way better Driver than Nash. Pippen had one of the fastest drives in the NBA and in a Fast Break he was as good as MJ, the Doctor or the Glyde (and he had longer arms!).

*Can you imagine how much his FG%, Scoring and Assits would be inflated if he played most of his Career from 1987-1996 for Creative Offensive Minded Wester Conference Teams?

What makes you think Nash is the More Efficient Scorer?

Nash has played 12 years and his prime is Ending while...

Pippen played 17 years (5 more) and in his last 5 years he was passed his prime. In 17 years he shot at 47.3% FG while scoring 16.1 PPG (which would have been higher if he played in his 20s in an average team like Nash has for most of his career, remember he played with Jordan? who took too many FGA PG) but playing low minutes 34.9 MPG... 5.2 APG, 6.4 RPG and 2,0 SPG (in his Prime nearly 3!) with close to 1 BPG.

Also lets not forget he was the second scorer of his team and was also the second or many if not most times! the 1st game creator-assister that had to do many things of way more responsability than Nash ever did:

Pippen had to:

1-Create for his team as most times 1st Option
2-Shut Down the Perimter with MJ
3-Get hold of some tough SFs
4-Score: Shoot and DRIVE to the Basket: last thing which he did Legend Like it would have been incredible to see Pipp in a Fast Offensive-Passing Creative Team like the West Teams back then.

Pippen was one the Greatest All Around Players Ever To Play and lived under the Shadow of the Greatest 1 on 1 Offensive Perimter Player/SG Ever whom took the whole spot light while Pippen did all the things to make him and others Better: Always or Most Times the: 1st Game Creator/Assiter for his team, Sometimes the: Second Rebounder of his Team, Always Best Perimter and All Around Defender! (always!) and 95% of the Time the: Second Option Focal Scorer! (Capacity Not Only To Score from Outisde but Inside, From the Baseline in a Fast Break etc)

Could PG Nash guard Magic and still have enough energy to Create, Defend (Steal, Block) Whole Court, Rebound and be the Second Focal Scorer of a Championship Team?

:no:

Pippen > Nash :rolleyes:

By the way!

No, no he didn't. Jordan guarded Isiah Thomas at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Mark Price at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Kevin Johnson at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Tim Hardaway at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Payton at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Drexler every single time they matched up save for about 15% of the time in the '92 Finals when Jordan was either on the bench or would switch onto Porter/Ainge if they were burning BJ/Paxson. Pippen never guarded guys like Shawn Kemp or Barkley for any appreciable amount of time WRONG!!!(i.e., aside from random switches on defense).

In the 91 Play-Offs Pippen Guarded Charles Barkley a considerable amout of Time and he Did Quite Well: Barkley`s toughest Defenders where Dennis Rodman and Pippen Actually since they where just 2-3 inches taller and had that quickness enough to stop his 1st Step Off the Dribble: something which over 6`8 Stockier PFs had too much trouble with when guarding Charles

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=nUHlAVH8Ua4

Stop Underrating Pippen

-He is a Top 10 SF of All Time
-Defensively He is in The Top 5 If Not More
-All Around Wise: He is Probably in the Top 15-20 Greatest All Around Players Ever

[Sir Charles]

Just imagine Nash and Jordan on the same team..IMO It would be more unstoppable then Pippen and Jordan, which seems pretty crazy because it is. Overall this is a dumb topic, but I would really like to see what Nash and Jordan could do on a court. It would be an opposing coaches nightmare to try to come up with plays for defensive stops.

Ignorance :rolleyes:

The Nash-Jordan:

Would just look nice and exiting offensively just as the Stockton to Malone Duo was (both limited: They Could Nod Be Non Position Players: PIPPEN WAS!). Offense and Assits would be flying out the Window Statistcally but Winning agains Real Competitive Teams (those of the 90s and 80s) :no:

Nash is just a Pure PG with Great Offensive Talents but not a Regular or Average Defnder but a Pathetic Defender. KJ was way Better than Nash in his Prime and he did not win any MVP and Payton not WAY but WAY WAY WAY BETTER.

*Again. MVP DOES NOT = BETTER PLAYER.

While Nash can only do what a PG does.

Mr Pippen as a SF can Do PG Stuff, SG Stuff, SF stuff and Edge PF Stuff.

Don`t Ever Comapre Pippen to Nash :banghead:

[iamgine]

Everyone on that Bulls team said it wouldn't had got done without Pip. That Pippen was their main leader along with Jordan. Tex Winter, re-inventor of triangle offense and the guy who taught MJ & Pippen triangle offense said that MJ need Pippen more than the reverse.

No one ever questioned that MJ is the better player. And he probably made Pippen the valuable guy that he was because MJ dominated the ball so much everyone else has to adjust to him.

If you want a testament about Scottie Pippen, ask his old teammates and coaches. All have been saying the highest praise for him. Sometimes people like us, who are outside the circle, don't understand the real impact. We don't see the conversations behind closed doors, the events that took place. We wonder why Bill Russel become one of the greatest despite playing with all stars and having little offensive ability, why George Karl hasn't been fired, why David Stern is still the commissioner, why the coach don't tell people like Carmelo & Curry to play a lot more D. We can speculate, but we don't know the real answer. Phil Jackson was as instrumental as any of his players during those championship years.

[Lebron23]

Pippen by far

Pippen can Guard All SFs-PGs and destroy them in the perimter also guard some tough PFs.

Pippen can Score, Rebound, Steal from All Areas and Against anyone and also Block

Nash can only Pass and Score. By the way Pippen is way better Driver than Nash. Pippen had one of the fastest drives in the NBA and in a Fast Break he was as good as MJ, the Doctor or the Glyde (and he had longer arms!).

*Can you imagine how much his FG%, Scoring and Assits would be inflated if he played most of his Career from 1987-1996 for Creative Offensive Minded Wester Conference Teams?

What makes you think Nash is the More Efficient Scorer?

Nash has played 12 years and his prime is Ending while...

Pippen played 17 years (5 more) and in his last 5 years he was passed his prime. In 17 years he shot at 47.3% FG while scoring 16.1 PPG (which would have been higher if he played in his 20s in an average team like Nash has for most of his career, remember he played with Jordan? who took too many FGA PG) but playing low minutes 34.9 MPG... 5.2 APG, 6.4 RPG and 2,0 SPG (in his Prime nearly 3!) with close to 1 BPG.

Also lets not forget he was the second scorer of his team and was also the second or many if not most times! the 1st game creator-assister that had to do many things of way more responsability than Nash ever did:

Pippen had to:

1-Create for his team as most times 1st Option
2-Shut Down the Perimter with MJ
3-Get hold of some tough SFs
4-Score: Shoot and DRIVE to the Basket: last thing which he did Legend Like it would have been incredible to see Pipp in a Fast Offensive-Passing Creative Team like the West Teams back then.

Pippen was one the Greatest All Around Players Ever To Play and lived under the Shadow of the Greatest 1 on 1 Offensive Perimter Player/SG Ever whom took the whole spot light while Pippen did all the things to make him and others Better: Always or Most Times the: 1st Game Creator/Assiter for his team, Sometimes the: Second Rebounder of his Team, Always Best Perimter and All Around Defender! (always!) and 95% of the Time the: Second Option Focal Scorer! (Capacity Not Only To Score from Outisde but Inside, From the Baseline in a Fast Break etc)

Could PG Nash guard Magic and still have enough energy to Create, Defend (Steal, Block) Whole Court, Rebound and be the Second Focal Scorer of a Championship Team?

:no:

Pippen > Nash :rolleyes:

By the way!

No, no he didn't. Jordan guarded Isiah Thomas at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Mark Price at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Kevin Johnson at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Tim Hardaway at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Payton at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Drexler every single time they matched up save for about 15% of the time in the '92 Finals when Jordan was either on the bench or would switch onto Porter/Ainge if they were burning BJ/Paxson. Pippen never guarded guys like Shawn Kemp or Barkley for any appreciable amount of time WRONG!!!(i.e., aside from random switches on defense).

In the 91 Play-Offs Pippen Guarded Charles Barkley a considerable amout of Time and he Did Quite Well: Barkley`s toughest Defenders where Dennis Rodman and Pippen Actually since they where just 2-3 inches taller and had that quickness enough to stop his 1st Step Off the Dribble: something which over 6`8 Stockier PFs had too much trouble with when guarding Charles

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=nUHlAVH8Ua4

Stop Underrating Pippen

-He is a Top 10 SF of All Time
-Defensively He is in The Top 5 If Not More
-All Around Wise: He is Probably in the Top 15-20 Greatest All Around Players Ever


Quoted for Truth :cheers:

[RonySeikalyFTW]

No one is getting "butthurt." You're simply mistaken. I have nearly 300 Bulls games on tape and DVD, and have seen at least 50 others on Youtube. Pippen almost exclusively guarded SF's. Period.



No, no he didn't. Jordan guarded Isiah Thomas at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Mark Price at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Kevin Johnson at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Tim Hardaway at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Payton at times; Pippen never did. Jordan guarded Drexler every single time they matched up save for about 15% of the time in the '92 Finals when Jordan was either on the bench or would switch onto Porter/Ainge if they were burning BJ/Paxson. Pippen never guarded guys like Shawn Kemp or Barkley for any appreciable amount of time (i.e., aside from random switches on defense).

So yeah, you're completely and utterly wrong. Completely. And utterly. Repeating it won't do you any good, because I can tell that all you're doing is regurgitating the prevailing mythos that has somehow developed around Pippen since the end of the Bulls dynasty. Every single thing I said above is 100% true and verifiable. Find me a single game with Pippen guarding Mark Price/Isiah/KJ for even a full quarter and I'll PayPal you $100. I can find several such games for Jordan.



Balderdash. I have 300 games on tape. There were 3 exceptions in 10 years to the "Pippen guards SF's" rule: Magic in the '91 Finals, whom he guarded about 50% of the time along with Jordan (and Magic was 6'8" anyway; SF size); 53 year old Mark Jackson in the '98 ECF; and Penny Hardaway in the '96 ECF, whom he guarded about 70% of the time (and Penny was 6'7"; again, SF size). That's it. Three exceptions in 10 years.

Try again.



Yes, there is denying this, because you're flat out wrong.

I mean, how can people listen to sh!t like this when it is objectively false? How can you expect people to engage you in rational debate when you're objectively wrong? And then you have the gall to call other people "butthurt" when they point out your clear error. :oldlol:

You are a joke. I have 301 Bulls games on videotape.

[EricForman]

I'd take Pippen over Nash.

But Nash is underrated on ISH and Pip is overrated. The gap is smaller than the general consensus here make it out to be.

Pip has choked/failed on the big stage everytime he had his own team. Whether it was 94 and the sitting out incident to 99 (getting destroyed by a 20 year old Kobe in the first round) to 2000 (letting his team blow a 15 point lead), Pip has failed when it matters plenty. Throw in the nonexistent 98 finals and the 1990 stinkbomb in game 7 which proably cost the Bulls a title there, and Pippen is vastly overrated by people who thinks he was the 2nd best player in the league in the 90s.

And if 97 Bulls really thought Pip was better than Bird, then I dnuno what to say to that one.

[Nash-tastic]

Im a huge steve nash friend, and i still take pippen

[Kiddlovesnets]

Scottie Pippen is a top 20 NBA Franchise player. Steve Nash, who?

[DCL]

nash is pretty good at some things, but pip's too damn good at everything.

[T-Low]

My question is, if pippen didn't have jordan/rodman on his team, how good would he actually be?

[KINGK]

Its funny how certain Jordan groupies are always dissing on PIP to boost up MJ.pathetic:oldlol:

[DCL]

i admire nash as a playmaker and a scorer, but my problem with him is that every pg in the league always has a friggin career night against him.

that never happened with pippen. more like the opposite. if you were facing him, you'd probably have one of your worst games of the entire season.

[gpfanz]

i admire nash as a playmaker and a scorer, but my problem with him is that every pg in the league always has a friggin career night against him..

But Nash team ends up winning the game nevertheless? :violin:

[ihatetimthomas]

But Nash team ends up winning the game nevertheless? :violin:

But Nash has never been to the finals?:violin:

[DCL]

But Nash team ends up winning the game nevertheless? :violin:

so did pip's. :violin:

[97 bulls]

I'd take Pippen over Nash.

But Nash is underrated on ISH and Pip is overrated. The gap is smaller than the general consensus here make it out to be.

Pip has choked/failed on the big stage everytime he had his own team. Whether it was 94 and the sitting out incident to 99 (getting destroyed by a 20 year old Kobe in the first round) to 2000 (letting his team blow a 15 point lead), Pip has failed when it matters plenty. Throw in the nonexistent 98 finals and the 1990 stinkbomb in game 7 which proably cost the Bulls a title there, and Pippen is vastly overrated by people who thinks he was the 2nd best player in the league in the 90s.

And if 97 Bulls really thought Pip was better than Bird, then I dnuno what to say to that one.
i dont think pip is better than bird. but i dont think that the gap between the two is vast.

[Loki]

i dont think pip is better than bird. but i dont think that the gap between the two is vast.

It's friggin enormous dude. :oldlol:

[Prodigy]

There were several huge playoff games where Pippen shot atrociously. Like, 5-20.

On the other hand, a chair could drop 20 on Nash.

Tough call. I think I'd take Pippen's offense over Nash's defense.

Not that one Yi worked out against. :no:

[EricForman]

i dont think pip is better than bird. but i dont think that the gap between the two is vast.

It's vast.

[juju151111]

You mean to tell me that Jordan wouldnt have retired if he had a dominant center instead of scottie? Get over it, Jordan got bored so he was like meh, let me try baseball. Blame him. He could have had more rings than fingers but he got bored. Wow wheres the killer instinct MJ? WHERE WAS IT???!!! :lol
LOL pip came in 87 and sucked bad.HE couldn't shoot etc... IF MJ had SHaq in 87-90 no way they lose to the pistons none.

[97 bulls]

It's friggin enormous dude. :oldlol:
no its not. weve been through this a million times. head to head, equalized stats, comparing a career number 2 guy to a number 1. and still head to head with a 23 year old pip and 31 year old bird it was basically a wash. bird as a number 1 option had slightly better stats but pip took a back seat to jordan. but pip forced him to 5 TOs a game. so like i said, bird is a better scorer, but not as much as pip is a better defender. not to mention pace which you love to use in jordan vs wilt arguments loki. thats why i cant respect some of your views loki. i firmly believe you are biased and have an agenda, are a hypocrit, and love to put words in peoples mouth. show me a post where i stated that pip was better than bird. i defy it.

[97 bulls]

LOL pip came in 87 and sucked bad.HE couldn't shoot etc... IF MJ had SHaq in 87-90 no way they lose to the pistons none.
i agree but pip is no shaq. but if they spend their career together do they get along? i strongly doubt it. both are too bull headed. and while i do feel jordan was the best ever, i also feel pip was a better team player.

[guy]

no its not. weve been through this a million times. head to head, equalized stats, comparing a career number 2 guy to a number 1. and still head to head with a 23 year old pip and 31 year old bird it was basically a wash. bird as a number 1 option had slightly better stats but pip took a back seat to jordan. but pip forced him to 5 TOs a game. so like i said, bird is a better scorer, but not as much as pip is a better defender. not to mention pace which you love to use in jordan vs wilt arguments loki. thats why i cant respect some of your views loki. i firmly believe you are biased and have an agenda, are a hypocrit, and love to put words in peoples mouth. show me a post where i stated that pip was better than bird. i defy it.

When a 23 year old Pippen faced a 31 year old Bird, Bird had 5 TOs in 1 game. In all 4 of those games, Bird had points of of 38/19/33/44. And are you seriously using head to head as a way to say Pippen is close to Bird? Dude thats completely ridiculous. You realize that Bird was arguably in his prime for only 1 year of Pippen's career, and Pippen was NEVER in his prime during Bird's career except for arguably the three-peat. It would be like comparing Jordan in his first two years head to head to Dr. J. And head-to-head is not a good way, cause it doesn't take account how these players do against the rest of the league. Fact is if Pippen was close to Bird, he would probably be close to Jordan. Jordan was CLEARLY the best player on the Bulls, and the same thing would be said about Bird if he was in Jordan's place. You look at overall careers and impact, Bird was easily better. I don't care if Pippen was a 2nd option, cause its not like Jordan stopped Pippen from putting up amazing numbers, infact he hid alot of Pippen's weaknesses, like not being a dominant scorer or great in the clutch. And its not like Bird didn't play with other great teammates that didn't have great numbers. He was putting up 9-10 rpg with Parish and McHale at his side, and McHale averaged 26 ppg in one season. No way is Pippen close to Bird, and thats not something bad to say cause not many are.

My question is, if pippen didn't have jordan/rodman on his team, how good would he actually be?

Wasn't that question already answered?
I'd say he did pretty damn good.

[97 bulls]

When a 23 year old Pippen faced a 31 year old Bird, Bird had 5 TOs in 1 game. In all 4 of those games, Bird had points of of 38/19/33/44. And are you seriously using head to head as a way to say Pippen is close to Bird? Dude thats completely ridiculous. You realize that Bird was arguably in his prime for only 1 year of Pippen's career, and Pippen was NEVER in his prime during Bird's career except for arguably the three-peat. It would be like comparing Jordan in his first two years head to head to Dr. J. And head-to-head is not a good way, cause it doesn't take account how these players do against the rest of the league. Fact is if Pippen was close to Bird, he would probably be close to Jordan. Jordan was CLEARLY the best player on the Bulls, and the same thing would be said about Bird if he was in Jordan's place. You look at overall careers and impact, Bird was easily better. I don't care if Pippen was a 2nd option, cause its not like Jordan stopped Pippen from putting up amazing numbers, infact he hid alot of Pippen's weaknesses, like not being a dominant scorer or great in the clutch. And its not like Bird didn't play with other great teammates that didn't have great numbers. He was putting up 9-10 rpg with Parish and McHale at his side, and McHale averaged 26 ppg in one season. No way is Pippen close to Bird, and thats not something bad to say cause not many are.
when the comparson was done, it was i believe over a two year period, head to head over i believe 8 games. bird was in his early 30s and pip in his early 20s. neither was in his prime. in fact, one could say that bird was closer cuz he was in his early thirties. but the fact is that bird had a slight edge offensively, and pips defense forced him into about 5 TOs per in the eight head to head matchups. and yes bird played with some great players but neither parrish nor mchale were ever really great rebounders for post players. and how could pip be a dominant scorer when the pace was slower. this was broughht up in the other debate and i was agreed that pip could have been a mid 20s scorer and a 7-9 rbs a game with 7-8 assts. if he was in a much less structured and more uptempo offense similar to the 80s then he would be.

[EricForman]

no its not. weve been through this a million times. head to head, equalized stats, comparing a career number 2 guy to a number 1. and still head to head with a 23 year old pip and 31 year old bird it was basically a wash. bird as a number 1 option had slightly better stats but pip took a back seat to jordan. but pip forced him to 5 TOs a game. so like i said, bird is a better scorer, but not as much as pip is a better defender.


You cannot use that one game where BIrd supposedly had 5 turnovers to prove that 23 year old Pip was already close with 31 year old Bird.

In fact, Pip was a very limited role player until at least 1989 or 1990. So please don't tell me you believe 1987 Pip was already "a wash" with 1987 LARRY FREAING BIRD.

In 1987, Bird to Pip was like Tim Duncan to Brendan Haywood right now.

[EricForman]

when the comparson was done, it was i believe over a two year period, head to head over i believe 8 games. bird was in his early 30s and pip in his early 20s. neither was in his prime. in fact, one could say that bird was closer cuz he was in his early thirties. but the fact is that bird had a slight edge offensively, and pips defense forced him into about 5 TOs per in the eight head to head matchups. and yes bird played with some great players but neither parrish nor mchale were ever really great rebounders for post players. and how could pip be a dominant scorer when the pace was slower. this was broughht up in the other debate and i was agreed that pip could have been a mid 20s scorer and a 7-9 rbs a game with 7-8 assts. if he was in a much less structured and more uptempo offense similar to the 80s then he would be.


I don't care if Bird has 26 turnovers going into the final 5 minutes of a game. Bird is still the superior choice over Pip in those final 5 minutes of a game.

[97 bulls]

You cannot use that one game where BIrd supposedly had 5 turnovers to prove that 23 year old Pip was already close with 31 year old Bird.

In fact, Pip was a very limited role player until at least 1989 or 1990. So please don't tell me you believe 1987 Pip was already "a wash" with 1987 LARRY FREAING BIRD.

In 1987, Bird to Pip was like Tim Duncan to Brendan Haywood right now.
yeah i agree, i was talking about i believe the 89-90 and the 90-91 season. but 23 year old pip wasnt any where as good as prime bird.

i stand corrected.

[97 bulls]

I don't care if Bird has 26 turnovers going into the final 5 minutes of a game. Bird is still the superior choice over Pip in those final 5 minutes of a game.
first of all i never said anything bout the last five minutes. and if bird commits 26 TOs in a game then you would care. and if i were to pick who my go to guy was in the last five minutes of a game between pip and bird, it would def. be bird. however if i needed to defend a go to guy for the last five minutes and my choice was pip or bird id pick pip. thats all im trying to say.

i said it before ill say it again. basketball is 50 percent offense and defense.

[Loki]

i said it before ill say it again. basketball is 50 percent offense and defense.

And I've said it before but I'll say it again: basketball is 50% defense only in terms of the amount of time spent on that end of the court. It is not 50% defense when calculating a player's overall impact.

[JtotheIzzo]

And I've said it before but I'll say it again: basketball is 50% defense only in terms of the amount of time spent on that end of the court. It is not 50% defense when calculating a player's overall impact.

this is factually correct

[Nets fan 93]

Eh... the way Nash makes people better and was a 2 time MVP with players like Kobe, James, Shaq.... Gotta go Nash since PG's are imo a more important position

[97 bulls]

And I've said it before but I'll say it again: basketball is 50% defense only in terms of the amount of time spent on that end of the court. It is not 50% defense when calculating a player's overall impact.
and i said it before and ill say it again, defense wins championships. i remember a challenge i sent to you. for every championship in any sport in which the better offensive team won over the better defensive ill give three the other way. i dont think you can or will do this cuz it will slap you in the face.

[97 bulls]

this is factually correct
show me the facts or where i can find this fact. otherwise, get off his nuts. whore

[EricForman]

yeah i agree, i was talking about i believe the 89-90 and the 90-91 season. but 23 year old pip wasnt any where as good as prime bird.

i stand corrected.

Not only was 23 year old Pip not anywhere near as good as Prime Bird. 23 year old Pip wasn anywhere as good as 23 year old Bird or 33 year old Bird for that matter.


AND, Prime Pip wasn't anywhere as good as 23 year Bird as well.

[guy]

when the comparson was done, it was i believe over a two year period, head to head over i believe 8 games. bird was in his early 30s and pip in his early 20s. neither was in his prime. in fact, one could say that bird was closer cuz he was in his early thirties. but the fact is that bird had a slight edge offensively, and pips defense forced him into about 5 TOs per in the eight head to head matchups.

The fact that both were far from their prime makes the head to head comparison worthless. Compare head-to-head matchups between Shaq and Dwight Howard, and it woud make you think that its "close", but no one in their right mind would think Dwight Howard is even close to Shaq.



and yes bird played with some great players but neither parrish nor mchale were ever really great rebounders for post players.

Parish regularly averaged rebounds in the double digits and McHale averaged close to it. My point is saying that Pippen couldn't put up absolutely amazing numbers like Bird cause he was a 2nd option and was playing with Jordan is dumb, since Bird had a bunch of great teammates that took away from his stats, and the same thing could be said about a bunch of great players, like Shaq and Kobe for example.



and how could pip be a dominant scorer when the pace was slower.


I'm not just talking about numbers. Pippen wasn't a guy that could take an offense on his back and dominate. He just wasn't as skilled of a scorer, he couldn't create his own shot anywhere near as easily as someone like Bird, and he had an inconsistent jumper.



this was broughht up in the other debate and i was agreed that pip could have been a mid 20s scorer and a 7-9 rbs a game with 7-8 assts. if he was in a much less structured and more uptempo offense similar to the 80s then he would be.

Like the Showtime Lakers? Cause alot of players could've done that on a team like that, so who cares? And I really wouldn't be surprised if he didn't do that. In 94 Pippen was in his prime, and was on a team where he had to do absolutely everything since there was no Jordan, and what did he average? Not really much different then what he was doing with Jordan. I would say his stats in a slower-paced offense without Jordan would be about equal to his stats in a faster-paced offense with someone like Jordan.

[97 bulls]

The fact that both were far from their prime makes the head to head comparison worthless. Compare head-to-head matchups between Shaq and Dwight Howard, and it woud make you think that its "close", but no one in their right mind would think Dwight Howard is even close to Shaq.



Parish regularly averaged rebounds in the double digits and McHale averaged close to it. My point is saying that Pippen couldn't put up absolutely amazing numbers like Bird cause he was a 2nd option and was playing with Jordan is dumb, since Bird had a bunch of great teammates that took away from his stats, and the same thing could be said about a bunch of great players, like Shaq and Kobe for example.



I'm not just talking about numbers. Pippen wasn't a guy that could take an offense on his back and dominate. He just wasn't as skilled of a scorer, he couldn't create his own shot anywhere near as easily as someone like Bird, and he had an inconsistent jumper.



Like the Showtime Lakers? Cause alot of players could've done that on a team like that, so who cares? And I really wouldn't be surprised if he didn't do that. In 94 Pippen was in his prime, and was on a team where he had to do absolutely everything since there was no Jordan, and what did he average? Not really much different then what he was doing with Jordan. I would say his stats in a slower-paced offense without Jordan would be about equal to his stats in a faster-paced offense with someone like Jordan.
i agree about the bird pip comparison cuz neither were in their prime. i believe 87 lakers made the head to head comparison. not me.

and you do realize that rodman alone averaged about 2-3 rebounds less than parrish and mchale together. and in my opinion since thers only 1 ball one the court everyone shares that one ball.

and as far as pips scoring, i agree pip wasnt that player that would run of 10-12 straight points. where we differ is on whether or not he could be that mid to high 20 ppg scorer. you make it seem like pip scored only on put backs or jordan penetrating and kicking out to him for a three or solely on fast breaks. and thats just not the case. i dont know if you know this but pip has always been considerd a point forward. even in college. so he had to have the ability to dribble. hes has a strong first step. and can dribble with both hands. and while he didnt have the jumpshot of ray allen or bird he had a decent jumpshot with a nice bank shot and he developed a nice jumphook in the post. not to mention he had 3pt range. and was extremly athletic. and could jump out the gym. the only thing he didnt have and i shouldnt say "only", but he didnt have a scorers mentality. he was a get everyone involved and cover the deficits type player. but i feel that if he was like alot of the players and came out determined to score in the high 20s i feel he had the tools to achieve it.

and by definition if you are in a faster pace offense your gonna score. and you obviously admit that. bird played in a faster paced era. when high octane offenses play even a normal offensive team the normal offense teams stats rise cuz of more shot attempts. and one again you agree. so if you agree that in a faster paced offense that pip would be a mid to high 20s scorer with 7-9 rbds and 7-8 assist and still be a great defender. what seperates him from bird other than pips a much much better defender?

oh and as far as that 94 version of the bulls. if pip did try to score lets say 28 ppg. the bulls are at best a .500 team.

[BankShot]

passing, playmaking, shooting?? Nash

defense, rebounding?? Pippen

[LarryLegend33]

Pippen is no where near Larry Bird.
Comparing Pippen to Bird is like comparing Chris Kaman to Hakeem Olajuwon.

[Lebron23]

passing, playmaking, shooting?? Nash

defense, rebounding?? Pippen

Pippen is also a greater scorer than Steve Nash.

[ihatetmac2524]

Eh... the way Nash makes people better and was a 2 time MVP with players like Kobe, James, Shaq.... Gotta go Nash since PG's are imo a more important position

lmao nash stole those mvp's imo.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont really get the argument that Pippen could be replaced by Shaq or hakeem and the Bulls win. It may be true but I dont know what its trying to get across. Would Pippen and Hakeem or Pippen and Shaq not win? Hell....Pippen and Ewing or Pippen and Barkley probably win rings.

[XxNeXuSxX]

[QUOTE=

[Loki]

so if you agree that in a faster paced offense that pip would be a mid to high 20s scorer with 7-9 rbds and 7-8 assist and still be a great defender. what seperates him from bird other than pips a much much better defender?

LMAO :oldlol:

So Pip would be a 26-28 pt/8+ reb/7+ ast player? No. Those are Bird numbers, and Pippen isn't anywhere near as good as Bird in any of those areas (scoring, rebounding, or passing).

You seem to overlook how much the system (i.e., the triangle) helped Pippen score. He got a lot of points out of the offense, because he was smart. In a more free-flowing offense he wouldn't be able to create his own shot anywhere near a Bird-type level. You can see how his scoring dropped off after he left Chicago, while Bird was a 20 ppg scorer until he retired despite crippling back injuries. Bird was a way more skilled and dominant offensive player than Pippen. Yet I'm supposed to believe that Pippen could do what Bird did numbers-wise? :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Pippen could approach Bird numbers without being as good as he is. I wouldnt be suprised if he were in the 23/9/9 area on say...the 2005-2007 suns in place of Nash. I watched Boris Diaws get back to back triple doubles when Nash was out playing point forward. Given the finishers and overall great offensive talent I dont put it past Pippen to do some great things numbers wise. Wouldnt mean hed be Bird good....but he could be near that production.

[Loki]

Pippen could approach Bird numbers without being as good as he is. I wouldnt be suprised if he were in the 23/9/9 area on say...the 2005-2007 suns in place of Nash. I watched Boris Diaws get back to back triple doubles when Nash was out playing point forward. Given the finishers and overall great offensive talent I dont put it past Pippen to do some great things numbers wise. Wouldnt mean hed be Bird good....but he could be near that production.

Yeah, but that's an extreme example. I was referring to both Pippen and Bird being in roughly equal circumstances (pace-wise, team role-wise etc.).

Put simply, Pippen imo is nowhere near Bird as an offensive player (Bird has at least a 15% edge) and Bird is a better rebounder as well. Balls and clutch play/dominance we won't even get into.

[Sir Charles]

LMAO :oldlol:

So Pip would be a 26-28 pt/8+ reb/7+ ast player? No. Those are Bird numbers, and Pippen isn't anywhere near as good as Bird in any of those areas (scoring, rebounding, or passing).

You seem to overlook how much the system (i.e., the triangle) helped Pippen score. He got a lot of points out of the offense, because he was smart. In a more free-flowing offense he wouldn't be able to create his own shot anywhere near a Bird-type level. You can see how his scoring dropped off after he left Chicago, while Bird was a 20 ppg scorer until he retired despite crippling back injuries. Bird was a way more skilled and dominant offensive player than Pippen. Yet I'm supposed to believe that Pippen could do what Bird did numbers-wise? :oldlol:

If Pippen would have played in his Prime ages 23-30 in a team that did not have Jordan a Shooting Guard as the Offensive Focal Scoring Point (Triangle Offense was done exactly for him) and the the game was designed more for the forwards to score Pippen would have been a:

21-24 PPG; 7-8 RPG; 6-7 APG man with ease for 6-7 seasons. Not to mention 1 BPG and 2-3 SPG for some too.

Quit Underrating Pippen :rolleyes: :hammerhead: :banghead: . Nash is a Great Offensive Player but he can`t do shi**t in Defense (None!) while Pippen can do it ALL, ALL! :confusedshrug: not just Guard his Opposing SF but Guard any Great Scoring SG, fast-dribblling machine PG and some PFs.

[TmacsRockets]

Pippen is no where near Larry Bird.
Comparing Pippen to Bird is like comparing Chris Kaman to Hakeem Olajuwon.

:rockon:

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah, but that's an extreme example. I was referring to both Pippen and Bird being in roughly equal circumstances (pace-wise, team role-wise etc.).

That seems pretty equal to me. In fact...id take Birds supporting cast in the title years over Nashs. Id say they had a factually superior player 3-5 and an overall better player at the point though DJ isnt on Nashs level as an offensive player. Add in Ainge and depending on when...a healthy Walton? Bird had as many weapons as Nash just so happened in the 80s a lot of teams had teams somewhat like the Suns.

Anyway I went to the suns first because the idea was Nash vs Pippen. In place of Nash I wouldnt be shocked by Bird like numbers from Pippen at all. What modern team is a better talent wise comparison to Birds teams? Maybe the Lakers with a healthy Bynum or the Nuggets when healthy. But there arent many.

[Loki]

That seems pretty equal to me. In fact...id take Birds supporting cast in the title years over Nashs. Id say they had a factually superior player 3-5 and an overall better player at the point though DJ isnt on Nashs level as an offensive player. Add in Ainge and depending on when...a healthy Walton? Bird had as many weapons as Nash just so happened in the 80s a lot of teams had teams somewhat like the Suns.

Anyway I went to the suns first because the idea was Nash vs Pippen. In place of Nash I wouldnt be shocked by Bird like numbers from Pippen at all. What modern team is a better talent wise comparison to Birds teams? Maybe the Lakers with a healthy Bynum or the Nuggets when healthy. But there arent many.

We're getting far afield here. Answer one question for me: how much better is Bird than Pippen, as a percentage? I'd say 15% if not 20%. A guy like 97 Bulls would argue that it's something negligible like 2-5%. That's why we're having this discussion.

I personally think that Bird sh!ts all over Pippen, and any Bird led team would beat a Pippen-led team at least 70-80% of the time assuming equal caliber teammates. Just my $.02

[97 bulls]

We're getting far afield here. Answer one question for me: how much better is Bird than Pippen, as a percentage? I'd say 15% if not 20%. A guy like 97 Bulls would argue that it's something negligible like 2-5%. That's why we're having this discussion.

I personally think that Bird sh!ts all over Pippen, and any Bird led team would beat a Pippen-led team at least 70-80% of the time assuming equal caliber teammates. Just my $.02
and thats all that your opinion is worth .02 cents. i dont even know why i continue to respond to a person who said michael jordan beat deion sanders in a foot race.:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

but if you feel that bird is 15% better tha pip ill tke that. i feel its more like 10%.

[Loki]

and thats all that your opinion is worth .02 cents. i dont even know why i continue to respond to a person who said michael jordan beat deion sanders in a foot race.:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I actually never said that, dunce. I said that they both ran 40 yard dashes on the same "superstar athletic challenge" TV show.


but if you feel that bird is 15% better tha pip ill tke that. i feel its more like 10%.

It's more than 10%.

[97 bulls]

I actually never said that, dunce. I said that they both ran 40 yard dashes on the same "superstar athletic challenge" TV show.



It's more than 10%.
lol yeah right. superstar show. wow. your ridiculous.:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Loki]

lol yeah right. superstar show. wow. your ridiculous.:roll: :roll: :roll:

And you're an idiot, because the show is real. People have the video.

[guy]

i agree about the bird pip comparison cuz neither were in their prime. i believe 87 lakers made the head to head comparison. not me.

Then why bring it up in the first place?



and you do realize that rodman alone averaged about 2-3 rebounds less than parrish and mchale together. and in my opinion since thers only 1 ball one the court everyone shares that one ball.

Both played a bunch of years where they were past their prime, and either way, you're acting like Pippen played with Rodman his whole career. He played only 3 years with him.



and as far as pips scoring, i agree pip wasnt that player that would run of 10-12 straight points. where we differ is on whether or not he could be that mid to high 20 ppg scorer. you make it seem like pip scored only on put backs or jordan penetrating and kicking out to him for a three or solely on fast breaks. and thats just not the case. i dont know if you know this but pip has always been considerd a point forward. even in college. so he had to have the ability to dribble. hes has a strong first step. and can dribble with both hands. and while he didnt have the jumpshot of ray allen or bird he had a decent jumpshot with a nice bank shot and he developed a nice jumphook in the post. not to mention he had 3pt range. and was extremly athletic. and could jump out the gym. the only thing he didnt have and i shouldnt say "only", but he didnt have a scorers mentality. he was a get everyone involved and cover the deficits type player. but i feel that if he was like alot of the players and came out determined to score in the high 20s i feel he had the tools to achieve it.

I never said he was a bad scorer. He mainly averaged somewhere around 18-22 ppg. That takes some skill. He just wasn't near the level of a guy like Bird, Jordan, Magic, Clyde, Dantley, King, Nique, Kobe, AI, Carter, T-Mac, Lebron, Dirk, and many others.




and by definition if you are in a faster pace offense your gonna score. and you obviously admit that. bird played in a faster paced era. when high octane offenses play even a normal offensive team the normal offense teams stats rise cuz of more shot attempts. and one again you agree. so if you agree that in a faster paced offense that pip would be a mid to high 20s scorer with 7-9 rbds and 7-8 assist and still be a great defender. what seperates him from bird other than pips a much much better defender?

He averaged 7-9 rpg and 7-8 apg for a few seasons, so I don't doubt that. Maybe he could've averaged somewhere around 24-25 ppg, not high 20s, but only for about 1 or 2 seasons. He wouldn't have a 24 ppg CAREER average like Bird. I'd think maybe his 16 ppg career average could be somewhere around 18-19 ppg.



oh and as far as that 94 version of the bulls. if pip did try to score lets say 28 ppg. the bulls are at best a .500 team.

Yea exactly, and thats the difference between someone like him and Bird. Pippen was not as aggressive of a scorer, he couldn't create his own shot as well, and he was sometimes inconsistent. If he was actually going for that many ppg, he would've shot them out of many games as a result from him forcing up alot of bad shots. In the end, his legacy today is greater then what it would've been if he was a high inefficient scorer on a bad team.

[97 bulls]

Then why bring it up in the first place?



Both played a bunch of years where they were past their prime, and either way, you're acting like Pippen played with Rodman his whole career. He played only 3 years with him.



I never said he was a bad scorer. He mainly averaged somewhere around 18-22 ppg. That takes some skill. He just wasn't near the level of a guy like Bird, Jordan, Magic, Clyde, Dantley, King, Nique, Kobe, AI, Carter, T-Mac, Lebron, Dirk, and many others.




He averaged 7-9 rpg and 7-8 apg for a few seasons, so I don't doubt that. Maybe he could've averaged somewhere around 24-25 ppg, not high 20s, but only for about 1 or 2 seasons. He wouldn't have a 24 ppg CAREER average like Bird. I'd think maybe his 16 ppg career average could be somewhere around 18-19 ppg.



Yea exactly, and thats the difference between someone like him and Bird. Pippen was not as aggressive of a scorer, he couldn't create his own shot as well, and he was sometimes inconsistent. If he was actually going for that many ppg, he would've shot them out of many games as a result from him forcing up alot of bad shots. In the end, his legacy today is greater then what it would've been if he was a high inefficient scorer on a bad team.
i already told you i was refering to the 89-90 and 90-91 seasons. and i made a mistake let it go.

and the fact is that math is math dude. more shot attempts are gonna equal more points and more rebounds etc. if you disagree, then we no longer need to have this discusion. cuz pip averaged about 20 ppg in his prime. so why wouldnt he average about 4-5 more if he really tried. not to mention you agreed. you just said "so what". ill agree hes not a high 20s scorer. ill take that back.

[97 bulls]

And you're an idiot, because the show is real. People have the video.
just let it go lok.:lol :roll: :lol :roll: :lol :roll:

[guy]

i already told you i was refering to the 89-90 and 90-91 seasons. and i made a mistake let it go.

and the fact is that math is math dude. more shot attempts are gonna equal more points and more rebounds etc. if you disagree, then we no longer need to have this discusion. cuz pip averaged about 20 ppg in his prime. so why wouldnt he average about 4-5 more if he really tried. not to mention you agreed. you just said "so what". ill agree hes not a high 20s scorer. ill take that back.

You're extremely overrating the pace differences. The 80s averaged between 108-111 ppg, while the 90s excluding 1999 where Pippen was very much past his prime, averaged between 95-107 ppg. If you switch Pippen from the 80s to 90s, going from 20 ppg to 24-25 ppg would be accurate if the league average in the 80s was like 120-125 ppg, a 20-25% difference. The difference clearly wasn't that big. Like I said, maybe Pippen would've averaged 24-25 ppg in one or two seasons, and I'd say that would depend on exactly what offense he was in.

[97 bulls]

You're extremely overrating the pace differences. The 80s averaged between 108-111 ppg, while the 90s excluding 1999 where Pippen was very much past his prime, averaged between 95-107 ppg. If you switch Pippen from the 80s to 90s, going from 20 ppg to 24-25 ppg would be accurate if the league average in the 80s was like 120-125 ppg, a 20-25% difference. The difference clearly wasn't that big. Like I said, maybe Pippen would've averaged 24-25 ppg in one or two seasons, and I'd say that would depend on exactly what offense he was in.
i just checked the league averages and i am completely convinced that pip would be a mid 20s scorer in the 80s. in birds prime from lets say 84 to 89 the average was about 110-111. in pips prime, which was about 92-98 the league average was about 95-96. that almost 15 a ppg difference. pip averaged about 19-22 ppg in his prime years. and thats without him making a concerted effort to score. if you give him 4 of those 15 points that easily within the 24-26 ppg average im talking about. and this is an average. so it doesnt mean hell score that every night.

[TmacsRockets]

If Pippen would have played in his Prime ages 23-30 in a team that did not have Jordan a Shooting Guard as the Offensive Focal Scoring Point (Triangle Offense was done exactly for him) and the the game was designed more for the forwards to score Pippen would have been a:

21-24 PPG; 7-8 RPG; 6-7 APG man with ease for 6-7 seasons. Not to mention 1 BPG and 2-3 SPG for some too.

Quit Underrating Pippen :rolleyes: :hammerhead: :banghead: . Nash is a Great Offensive Player but he can`t do shi**t in Defense (None!) while Pippen can do it ALL, ALL! :confusedshrug: not just Guard his Opposing SF but Guard any Great Scoring SG, fast-dribblling machine PG and some PFs.

Underrating Pippen? How could you underrate Pippen? He was nothing but a 2nd option. He couldn't even get out of the 1st round with Barkley and Hakeem. Drexler was able to get to the Conference Finals with them.

[guy]

i just checked the league averages and i am completely convinced that pip would be a mid 20s scorer in the 80s. in birds prime from lets say 84 to 89 the average was about 110-111. in pips prime, which was about 92-98 the league average was about 95-96. that almost 15 a ppg difference. pip averaged about 19-22 ppg in his prime years. and thats without him making a concerted effort to score. if you give him 4 of those 15 points that easily within the 24-26 ppg average im talking about. and this is an average. so it doesnt mean hell score that every night.

Dude I don't know if you did the math wrong, or if your twisting facts just to support your argument, but from 92-98, there were only two years in that 95-96 ppg range. For that period as a whole, the league average was about 101 ppg, 100.8 to be exact. 84-89 was about 110 ppg, 109.7 to be exact. There's about a 9 point difference not 15 point difference unless if you just take the highest scoring year of that 80s period vs. the lowest scoring year of that 90s period. Since Scottie scored about 20% of the league average ppg per team, his scoring probably would've went up about 1.8 ppg on average for that time period. Like I said, he could've had 1 or 2 years at 24-25 ppg, but not for significantly more years.

[97 bulls]

Dude I don't know if you did the math wrong, or if your twisting facts just to support your argument, but from 92-98, there were only two years in that 95-96 ppg range. For that period as a whole, the league average was about 101 ppg, 100.8 to be exact. 84-89 was about 110 ppg, 109.7 to be exact. There's about a 9 point difference not 15 point difference unless if you just take the highest scoring year of that 80s period vs. the lowest scoring year of that 90s period. Since Scottie scored about 20% of the league average ppg per team, his scoring probably would've went up about 1.8 ppg on average for that time period. Like I said, he could've had 1 or 2 years at 24-25 ppg, but not for significantly more years.
right and that without having a scorers mentality. this whole argument was because of people that believe scottie couldnt hve been a great scorer. based on his career. im saying he could have been if he asserted himself. but maybe not that high 20 ppg scorer like bird. but the defensive gap makes up for that. not that hes better but he in birds ballpark.

[Loki]

Remind me again why we're scaling individual ppg to team pace? It's not accurate at all, unless the player(s) in the faster-paced league/team were using more of those possessions. A more accurate measure would be to find Pippen's PPP (points per possession) and then scale that based on the estimated number of extra possessions he himself would use on a faster-paced team (i.e., if the team had an extra 7 possessions per game, perhaps Pippen himself, as a first option, would use 2 of them; you then multiply 2 times whatever Pip's PPP is -- possibly giving a very slight bump for increased efficiency on a couple of baskets per game at a faster pace -- and then you'l have a more accurate estimate of what he'd score).

Individul scoring does not necessarily directly scale with team scoring. That is, you can't assume that an individual player would score 10% more on a team that scored 10% more than his current team.

[guy]

Remind me again why we're scaling individual ppg to team pace? It's not accurate at all, unless the player(s) in the faster-paced league/team were using more of those possessions. A more accurate measure would be to find Pippen's PPP (points per possession) and then scale that based on the estimated number of extra possessions he himself would use on a faster-paced team (i.e., if the team had an extra 7 possessions per game, perhaps Pippen himself, as a first option, would use 2 of them; you then multiply 2 times whatever Pip's PPP is -- possibly giving a very slight bump for increased efficiency on a couple of baskets per game at a faster pace -- and then you'l have a more accurate estimate of what he'd score).

Individul scoring does not necessarily directly scale with team scoring. That is, you can't assume that an individual player would score 10% more on a team that scored 10% more than his current team.

I know. It was just somewhat of an estimate. I was just trying to point out that he wouldn't have scored that much more at all.

[guy]

right and that without having a scorers mentality. this whole argument was because of people that believe scottie couldnt hve been a great scorer. based on his career. im saying he could have been if he asserted himself. but maybe not that high 20 ppg scorer like bird. but the defensive gap makes up for that. not that hes better but he in birds ballpark.

Anybody that scores as much as Pippen does have to have somewhat of a scorer's mentality. Its pretty clear though that he didn't have enough of a scorer's mentality to carry a team in that way. And I'm sorry, but he's not in Bird's ballpark. Do you honestly think Pippen was capable of being the best player on a team that won 3 championships, lead them to 5 Finals, and win 3 MVPs? You can't honestly think that.

[Loki]

I know. It was just somewhat of an estimate. I was just trying to point out that he wouldn't have scored that much more at all.

I was directing that post to 97 Bulls, not you.

[LarryLegend33]

Comparing Pippen to Larry Freaking Bird is like comparing Chris Kaman to Hakeem Olajuwon or Zach Randolph to Tim Duncan.

[97 bulls]

Remind me again why we're scaling individual ppg to team pace? It's not accurate at all, unless the player(s) in the faster-paced league/team were using more of those possessions. A more accurate measure would be to find Pippen's PPP (points per possession) and then scale that based on the estimated number of extra possessions he himself would use on a faster-paced team (i.e., if the team had an extra 7 possessions per game, perhaps Pippen himself, as a first option, would use 2 of them; you then multiply 2 times whatever Pip's PPP is -- possibly giving a very slight bump for increased efficiency on a couple of baskets per game at a faster pace -- and then you'l have a more accurate estimate of what he'd score).

Individul scoring does not necessarily directly scale with team scoring. That is, you can't assume that an individual player would score 10% more on a team that scored 10% more than his current team.
your right but on my end we are considering if he were in a less sttructure more uptempo offense like everyone in the 80s also.

[97 bulls]

Anybody that scores as much as Pippen does have to have somewhat of a scorer's mentality. Its pretty clear though that he didn't have enough of a scorer's mentality to carry a team in that way. And I'm sorry, but he's not in Bird's ballpark. Do you honestly think Pippen was capable of being the best player on a team that won 3 championships, lead them to 5 Finals, and win 3 MVPs? You can't honestly think that.
well never know. he played his prime under jordan. and while i hate to bring up 94 its really the only year with him as the best player. and in only one year as the main guy he was third in the mvp voting to 2 top 10 all-time centers playing in their prime. and i firmly believe that if jordan the greatest player ever is replaced by any SG worth anything instead of pete myers, they would have gone alot farther and possibly won a championship in his first year taking over the bulls.

[97 bulls]

Comparing Pippen to Larry Freaking Bird is like comparing Chris Kaman to Hakeem Olajuwon or Zach Randolph to Tim Duncan.
thats your opinion bro.

[guy]

well never know. he played his prime under jordan. and while i hate to bring up 94 its really the only year with him as the best player. and in only one year as the main guy he was third in the mvp voting to 2 top 10 all-time centers playing in their prime. and i firmly believe that if jordan the greatest player ever is replaced by any SG worth anything instead of pete myers, they would have gone alot farther and possibly won a championship in his first year taking over the bulls.

Replace Pete Myers with someone like Clyde Drexler, Latrell Sprewell, Penny Hardaway, Reggie Miller, or Mitch Richmond, and I still don't think they're beating the Rockets that year if they get that far, which I think I would. Its funny how people totally forget the next year, and how the Bulls were barely above .500 before Jordan came back. Then in 99, Pippen couldn't get past the 1st round with Barkley and Hakeem, and he was arguably the Blazer's best player in 00 and they had one of the biggest chokes in NBA history. Obviously after he left the Bulls, he wasn't the same player, but I'm just pointing out that he didn't have the mentality and ability to totally dominate to be someone on the level of Larry Bird.

[gotbacon23]

Replace Pete Myers with someone like Clyde Drexler, Latrell Sprewell, Penny Hardaway, Reggie Miller, or Mitch Richmond, and I still don't think they're beating the Rockets that year if they get that far, which I think I would. Its funny how people totally forget the next year, and how the Bulls were barely above .500 before Jordan came back. Then in 99, Pippen couldn't get past the 1st round with Barkley and Hakeem, and he was arguably the Blazer's best player in 00 and they had one of the biggest chokes in NBA history. Obviously after he left the Bulls, he wasn't the same player, but I'm just pointing out that he didn't have the mentality and ability to totally dominate to be someone on the level of Larry Bird.


in 1999 pippen was coming off his back injury. he was past his prime.

in 1994-95 before MJ came back, it was true that the bulls were around .500, but thats also the season they lost horace grant. their starting line up for much of the season before MJ returned was... pippen, kukoc, bj armstrong, ron harper, and ... will perdue. thats 4 perimeter players and... will perdue. that works with shaq, but not when your only big man is... will perdue. the loss of horace grant had a gigantic impact on that team. its not like pippen was playing terrible- he still had a good year. that team was just dreadful with interior defense, and pippen and harper were the only good perimeter defenders (armstrong and kukoc were bad).

then all of a sudden you add rodman, you had jordan... now you got THREE great perimeter defenders (jordan, pippen, harper), a great interior (and perimeter) defender in rodman, and luc longely improved to offset the loss of... will perdue, and now kukoc is off the bench as an offensive spark, rather then starting as a defensive liability.

[Shepseskaf]

Nash's legacy will be ruining the credibility of the MVP award.
Couldn't agree more.

[johnk5150]

[QUOTE=

[guy]

in 1999 pippen was coming off his back injury. he was past his prime.

I pointed that out.



in 1994-95 before MJ came back, it was true that the bulls were around .500, but thats also the season they lost horace grant. their starting line up for much of the season before MJ returned was... pippen, kukoc, bj armstrong, ron harper, and ... will perdue. thats 4 perimeter players and... will perdue. that works with shaq, but not when your only big man is... will perdue. the loss of horace grant had a gigantic impact on that team. its not like pippen was playing terrible- he still had a good year. that team was just dreadful with interior defense, and pippen and harper were the only good perimeter defenders (armstrong and kukoc were bad).

I never said he didn't have a good year. I was just pointing out that just because Pippen did that in 94, doesn't mean he would've done that every single year of his career if he was a no.1 option, and it doesn't mean he was capable of leading a team, at least a team that wasn't abnormally talented relative to the rest of the league, to a championship. He just wasn't a player that could DOMINATE. We'll never know, but IMO, his legacy is alot better off the way it is today then it would've been if he was the leader of a team throughout his career.

[Loki]

I also love how people ignore the fact that that was a team that had been together for 6+ seasons playing at the highest level, and had built the trust and chemistry (both defensivey an offensively) that comes with that. Coached by a HOF'er, running a system offense that the players knew intimately, and adding at that time what many considered to be the best Euro player ever.

Put Pippen, even at age 28 (much less age 21-24) on a team like the '84-'88 Bulls as the main option and they do significantly worse than what they did. Significantly. He couldn't just go to some random team and add a large number of wins like guys like MJ/Bird could. People are deluded.

[mongePR(kb24)]

give me pippen AKA bulldog.

[feyki]

Nash was goat type offensive player and a negative defender . Pippen had nearly goat perimeter defending and a good offensive player with his versatility .

Both have around 30-35 all time level career . And their peaks close to each other .

[JohnnySic]

Strong 7.5 year bump.

[Dragonyeuw]

Seriously?

[feyki]

Strong 7.5 year bump.

All time greats >>>>>> daily shit threads