What is the differences between Manu Ginobli and Kobe Bryant?

[lil baller]

Wade is also injury prone, and has no range. Ginobli has more rings than Wade as well. That is why I would take him over Wade.
well u can have shaq on ur team and j-will with manu and i'll have duncan and paker and with wade and will see who has a better team...the only reason he has those rings is because of duncan/parker...if he is so great why doesnt he start????:confusedshrug:

[Jinxed]

:oldlol:


So now Moon is better than Williams? ****ing classic.

Well MOon is way better on defense. But this is a hard comparison that could easily be skewed simply because Moon plays Very few minutes compared to Williams. This will mess things up. If you want to find a way to **** up the rankings choose players with starter like minutes and see if you find anomolies.

[out|hoops|side]

No...about 6 or 7..

Top Players..according to Comprehensive rating system system..
1.Kevin Garnett
2.Chauncey Billups (deadly efficient, great defender)
3.Paul Pierce
4.Manu Ginobli
5.Lebron James
6.Chris Paul
7.Dirk Nowitzki
8.Kobe Bryant



Roland ratings
1. Lebron James
2.Kevin Garnett
3.Manu Ginobli
4.Chris Paul
5.Dirk
6.Bryant

Hollinger's PER

1)LeBron James, Cavs
2)Chris Paul, Hornets
3)Amare Stoudemire, Suns
4)Kevin Garnett, Celtics
5)Dirk Nowitzki, Mavs
6)Tim Duncan, Spurs
7)Manu Ginobili, Spurs
8)Kobe Bryant, Lakers


You see..it's not that Kobe isn't great. He is. It's just that Manu is vastly underrated.

I was just going to quote this and tell everyone the obvious, on how garbage these stats are because Manu, at the lowest, is apparently the 7th best player in the league.
Then I read on to see these stats put Moon ahead of Deron Williams, I am a Raps fan but that is freaking crazy.
These rating systems are ridiculous, Jinxed is ridiculous.
Many GMs, scouts, players, people who can judge basketball talent by looking at it, will tell you Kobe is better than Ginobili, they'll also tell you that Deron Williams is better than Moon. They will be right on both accounts.


End thread, Kobe is better than Ginobili, Moon is not better than Deron Williams. Anyone would be crazy to take Moon over Deron, proving these stats are just as ridiculous as the posters who use them to prove a point.

END THREAD.

[imdaman99]

On the plus side, I think Moon is a better dunker than DWill :lol

[AllenIverson3]

In my opinion these have been the top 2 shooting guards in the league for the past 5 years.

Most people say Kobe is the better player, and well, stats would say that is true.

However I feel that Ginobli is the better basketball player than Kobe. The only thing that seperates the two is Ginobli is way less selfish than Kobe, and Kobe shoots alot more, and gets better treatment from the refs. Though Kobe has a big reputation for being the best closer in the game, I'd rather have Ginobli in those situations, his playoff stats are amazing, and Kobe has proven to be garbage in the finals. Also Kobe can't deal with guys like James Posey or Bruce Bowen, while I can't say that I've ever really seen a guy shut down Ginobli.

In my opinion Kobe puts up better stats, but Ginobli is the better winner.

So what exactly is it that makes everyone think that Kobe Bryant is so much better than Manu Ginobli?

so ur saying Manu Ginobili was the second best shooting guard in the league his rookie year? GET THE **** OUTTA HERE! dont ever post retarded **** like that again!

[AllenIverson3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT2y3N9sBu8
look at 1:03.

Manu owning Kobe.

Kobe gets the numbers because he always goes for the kill, while Manu coasts and then pulls out the dagger 3s and drives in the 4th quarter if he needs them. In the 4th quarter I would rather have Ginobli than Kobe, seeing as he is less likely to throw up a fadeaway 3 with a hand in his face, and more likely to pass instead of go one on 5, and he is statistically more likely to hit his freethrows, and also shoots 57% in the last 5 minutes of games compared to Kobe shooting 48%.

so ur saying manu owned kobe then hes on the same level as him?

[AllenIverson3]

No, it does work: Finals MVP of 2001 Euroleague League Championship.

this aint Euroleague is it? where the **** do u guys come from? u have any idea wtf NBA is? I see some retarded posts that just dont make any ****ing sense!
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[out|hoops|side]

this aint Euroleague is it? where the **** do u guys come from? u have any idea wtf NBA is? I see some retarded posts that just dont make any ****ing sense!
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Hey buddy, pal, chief, g@ylord, read the f*cking thread before you quote that crap.
If you hadn't noticed I was bashing this guy for saying Manu is so good all along, then someone said "yeah Manu is definitely better than Kobe because he has a 6th man of the year award and Kobe only has an MVP" so I, being sarcastic, said that thing you just quoted.
You must have thought you were pretty smart bringing that up to try and make fun of me. You fail.

[K.Koscik]

You said that the other Spurs don't get great stats. Well, what about Duncan:

20.1ppg 14.5rpg 3.3apg 2.1bpg in 38 minutes. Those are some pretty good stats.

Tony Parker: 22.4ppg 6.1apg 3.7rpg on 50% (0.497) shooting!! in 39 minutes.

While Manu is over there shooting at a 40% clip. REAL effective. Averaging the least points, rebounds and assists of the three.

I don't have to mention how your "clutch shooting" argument is flawed. Although Kobe shoots at 49% in the clutch how about the fact that Kobe also was 2nd in the league in points in the 4th quarter? Manu is pretty high up there as well, but Manu is the third most effective player on that team thus having much less defensive pressure on him than Kobe. Thing is, Kobe is still making shots and winning games, even if (and only in that category) he isn't as effective as Manu.


I'm waiting 1000.

[Jinxed]

End thread, Kobe is better than Ginobili, Moon is not better than Deron Williams. Anyone would be crazy to take Moon over Deron, proving these stats are just as ridiculous as the posters who use them to prove a point.

END THREAD.

So you found one anomoly in (ONE of the statistical rankings...noticed I posted three seperate ones) where they compared a backup off the bench vs. Deron Williams and on the basis of that ALL THREE stat things are wack? LOL...c'mon buddy.

When you find Starters (guys who play 30 minutes plus)...and you find multiple anomolies in all three statistical categories.. You'll let me know.

Until then you don't have an argument.

[K.Koscik]

So you found one anomoly in (ONE of the statistical rankings...noticed I posted three seperate ones) where they compared a backup off the bench vs. Deron Williams and on the basis of that ALL THREE stat things are wack? LOL...c'mon buddy.

When you find Starters (guys who play 30 minutes plus)...and you find multiple anomolies in all three statistical categories.. You'll let me know.

Until then you don't have an argument.

The only list that isn't completely rediculous at this point is the PER (we've been over what PER means to this board many, many times)

For example. How is Billups a better player than Duncan, Bryant, or other elite players. Guy isn't even an all-star anymore. He's old and since you're one of the guys that likes to talk about playoffs so much, has let his team choke in the ECF for the last 4 years in a row.

He's good but definitely not a top 20 player. Let's hear your reasoning for having people like him rated so high.

[Donald Trump$]

This thread is ridiculous.

1000 Years of Pain, you're fired.

[Jinxed]

The only list that isn't completely rediculous at this point is the PER (we've been over what PER means to this board many, many times)

For example. How is Billups a better player than Duncan, Bryant, or other elite players. Guy isn't even an all-star anymore. He's old and since you're one of the guys that likes to talk about playoffs so much, has let his team choke in the ECF for the last 4 years in a row.

He's good but definitely not a top 20 player. Let's hear your reasoning for having people like him rated so high.


Sure...to quote Hollinger himself "I'm not sure everyone understands quite what a devastating offensive player Billups is. He only played 32.4 minutes per game last year and Detroit was the league's slowest-paced team, so he averaged just 17.0 points per game.

But look at how efficient he was. Billups got his points on just 11.2 field-goal attempts per game because he was so good at both drawing fouls and making 3-pointers. Many players are good at one or the other; besides Billups, almost nobody is good at both. He had the second-best free-throw rate among point guards and hit 91.8 percent from the stripe, but he also was in the top third in 3-point attempts per field-goal attempt and knocked down 40.1 percent from there.

One wonders if he should launch more from downtown. In particular, Billups is so good at shooting threes from the wing that it's a wonder Detroit doesn't run more plays to get him shots from there. Over the past four years he's made a jaw-dropping 47.4 percent from either wing spot -- that's not a one-year small-sample fluke, people, that's an entire Olympiad and comprises over 600 shot attempts.

Oh, and when he's not killing you with his shot-making Billups is an exquisite point guard"

Chauncey Billups ppg and assts per game are not mind-blowing, but that is only because he plays just 31 mpg and Detroit plays a slow tempo...which means fewer posessions. But he's deadly freaking efficient-meaning he scores a hell of a lot per posession.

[K.Koscik]

Sure...to quote Hollinger himself "I'm not sure everyone understands quite what a devastating offensive player Billups is. He only played 32.4 minutes per game last year and Detroit was the league's slowest-paced team, so he averaged just 17.0 points per game.

But look at how efficient he was. Billups got his points on just 11.2 field-goal attempts per game because he was so good at both drawing fouls and making 3-pointers. Many players are good at one or the other; besides Billups, almost nobody is good at both. He had the second-best free-throw rate among point guards and hit 91.8 percent from the stripe, but he also was in the top third in 3-point attempts per field-goal attempt and knocked down 40.1 percent from there.

One wonders if he should launch more from downtown. In particular, Billups is so good at shooting threes from the wing that it's a wonder Detroit doesn't run more plays to get him shots from there. Over the past four years he's made a jaw-dropping 47.4 percent from either wing spot -- that's not a one-year small-sample fluke, people, that's an entire Olympiad and comprises over 600 shot attempts.

Oh, and when he's not killing you with his shot-making Billups is an exquisite point guard"

Chauncey Billups ppg and assts per game are not mind-blowing, but that is only because he plays just 31 mpg and Detroit plays a slow tempo...which means fewer posessions. But he's deadly freaking efficient-meaning he scores a hell of a lot per posession.

Okay fair enough. However. Look at someone like Chris Paul. He averages more assists, steals, and points than Billups, granted, at a faster pace.

76% of Paul's shots are jumpshots. Of those, 49% go in.

24% of his shots are "inside". 61% of those go in. So as well, he is "deadly" efficient in scoring, and I doubt I have to even say anything about his playmaking abilities. What makes Billups better than him?

http://www.82games.com/0708/07NOH1A.HTM

Billups is considered "trade-able" on his team, while someone like Kobe, Pierce, Wade, Lebron, aren't even close to that category. Some people consider Rip Hamilton a better and more efficient player than Billups.
How can that be so? Billups is the number two player in the entire league! I mean, what kind of a fool would want to trade the 33 year old out of his prime, on the decline point guard?

Any good three point shooter can make that great a percentage of shots if your floor is so evenly balanced with Prince, Hamilton, Wallace in the middle sucking in defenders, and then Billups. Why do you think Hamilton shoots 44% from three point land (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/richard_hamilton/)
and Prince shoots 36% (and he's not even a great shooter) (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tayshaun_prince/index.html)

Hell, even Wallace makes 36% of his threes.

As for Chauncey's "offensive efficiency" what about his 41% career FG% or his 38% career 3P%? Well he's THAT efficient right? It's all fine and dandy that he can shoot from the wings, but he's a point guard, he better be able to shoot from everywhere else as well. Eventually teams catch on (see, Boston, Cleveland, every other team that's eliminated them all these years in the playoffs)

His regular season numbers are fine, I understand that he's saving energy for the post season. So why don't they advance to the finals? In fact, why do his postseason numbers DECREASE when he reached the playoffs?

His stats for this postseason were 16.1ppg (less than regular season) 5.5apg (less than regular season) 0.8spg (less than regular season) while shooting 40% from the field and 38% from three(less than the regular season), as well as a mediocre(for him) 83% from the stripe (9% less than his season average, and he had 95% from the stripe in the series he got injured)

Don't try to blame it on his injury because his best %'s were that series that he got injured and only played three games. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chauncey_billups/index.html

[Jinxed]

Okay fair enough. However. Look at someone like Chris Paul. So as well, he is "deadly" efficient in scoring, and I doubt I have to even say anything about his playmaking abilities. What makes Billups better than him?


Well let's keep in mind that Billups is only better than Paul on one of the three lists. ...and even on that list Paul is a better offensive player than Chauncey. In fact, he's ranked number one in the league!

So why is Chauncey better? The reason is simple. Billups is ranked as the 21st best defender in the league. Paul as the 136. Did you forget about that side of the ball? CP3 gets a lot of steals, so when people look at the stat sheet they think he's a good defender, but he's not. He gets scored on like it's his job.




Hell, even Wallace makes 36% of his threes.

Wallace best three point shooting seasons were in Portland. And Rip was a good three point shooter in Washington as well. Even though he was young.




As for Chauncey's "offensive efficiency" what about his 41% career FG% or his 38% career 3P%? Well he's THAT efficient right? It's all fine and dandy that he can shoot from the wings, but he's a point guard, he better be able to shoot from everywhere else as well. Eventually teams catch on (see, Boston, Cleveland, every other team that's eliminated them all these years in the playoffs).

We aren't talking about his career numbers, we are talking about his number's LAST SEASON. And we aren't talking about playoff stats either. These are only regular season stats. So you can't judge the rankings on how a player performs in the postseason. And he can still shoot better from the perimeter than Chris Paul. Easily.

And just because Detroit lost to Boston in the ECF doesn't mean that Chauncey isn't great. It's a team game remember? 12 players..a coach..New Orleans didn't make it to the finals either.

[K.Koscik]

Well let's keep in mind that Billups is only better than Paul on one of the three lists. ...and even on that list Paul is a better offensive player than Chauncey. In fact, he's ranked number one in the league!

So why is Chauncey better? The reason is simple. Billups is ranked as the 21st best defender in the league. Paul as the 136. Did you forget about that side of the ball? CP3 gets a lot of steals, so when people look at the stat sheet they think he's a good defender, but he's not. He gets scored on like it's his job.



Wallace best three point shooting seasons were in Portland. And Rip was a good three point shooter in Washington as well. Even though he was young.




We aren't talking about his career numbers, we are talking about his number's LAST SEASON. And we aren't talking about playoff stats either. These are only regular season stats. So you can't judge the rankings on how a player performs in the postseason. And he can still shoot better from the perimeter than Chris Paul. Easily.

And just because Detroit lost to Boston in the ECF doesn't mean that Chauncey isn't great. It's a team game remember? 12 players..a coach..New Orleans didn't make it to the finals either.

I'm not just using CP3 as the only example. Just as one at his position. You wanted to talk efficiency so I talked efficiency. You claimed that because of the pace of the game and how they all play lowish minutes in the regular season is because they were saving up for the postseason right?

How anyone can really believe Billups is better than everyone in the league but Kevin Garnett is beyond me. A lot of people don't even consider him the best on his own team, much less 2nd in the entire league.

If defense is what seperates him in that list, why is Kobe behind him when Kobe has been All defensive 1st team / 2nd time more times than Billups has?

And don't get me started on scoring wise. Kobe takes that easily.

[AItheAnswer3]

BAN. Useless thread.

[J000]

BAN. Useless thread.

BAN. useless input. Obviously he has an argument here.

Banning someone for making a debatable thread is idiotic :violin:

[AItheAnswer3]

BAN. useless input. Obviously he has an argument here.

Banning someone for making a debatable thread is idiotic :violin:

You really think Kobe Vs Manu is debatable? :roll:

[J000]

You really think Kobe Vs Manu is debatable? :roll:

Well, it explains the 18 pages in this thread. SO yeah.

[AItheAnswer3]

Well, it explains the 18 pages in this thread. SO yeah.

It doesnt explain squat. Very few people are actually taking this seriously, most posters are simply bashing the OP and saying how much of a joke this comparison is. No one can make a legit argument about Manu being better than Kobe.

[J000]

It doesnt explain squat. Very few people are actually taking this seriously, most posters are simply bashing the OP and saying how much of a joke this comparison is.

You said debating.

Debating means talking about a certain topic, and this thread is debatable like I said because it has what? 18 pages of debate and argument between Kobe and Manu.

And yes they are explaining the differences.

[1000yearsofPAIN]

In compository stats such as PER, Manu ranks above Kobe in all of them. Not Tim Duncan. Not Tony Parker. Manu. He is a true winner.

Also whenever Tim Duncan is out, Manu is allowed to go berserk by Popovitch and often puts up 35-40 ppg. Who says he can't be a first option in the NBA?

[eliteballer]

Popovich said Kobes the best player in the league.

[Niquesports]

You said debating.

Debating means talking about a certain topic, and this thread is debatable like I said because it has what? 18 pages of debate and argument between Kobe and Manu.

And yes they are explaining the differences.


At the end of the day 1 will be in the HOF Kobe
and one will be forgotten Manu

[J000]

In compository stats such as PER, Manu ranks above Kobe in all of them. Not Tim Duncan. Not Tony Parker. Manu. He is a true winner.

Also whenever Tim Duncan is out, Manu is allowed to go berserk by Popovitch and often puts up 35-40 ppg. Who says he can't be a first option in the NBA?

Switch Kobe and Manu's teams and I guarantee you Manu will be more productive in Lakers TODAY than Kobe. Kobe on the other hand will chuck around Timmy, Parker on the team and try to take control. He will end up shooting a low % when Kobe is on the Spurs.

[1000yearsofPAIN]

At the end of the day 1 will be in the HOF Kobe
and one will be forgotten Manu
Um Manu is one of the best 6th men of all time, and a LEGEND in international and European basketball and has 3 NBA championships and counting. If guys like Sabonis get in (did he?) then Manu will too.

[DuMa]

I dont think the talent level is too far off between them. They both have different roles on their team and Manu uses his skills for playmaking most of the time. Manu is also the only player to win Olympic Gold, Euroleague and an NBA Championship. Manu also has too many commitments outside of the NBA affecting his health. he just simply plays too much basketball for his body to sustain. If he just commits himself to the NBA, he is at least a franchise player in the league.

[Killer_Instinct]

At the end of the day 1 will be in the HOF Kobe
and one will be forgotten Manu


You really think that matters here at ISH? 85% of the posters are morons. Anyone who would honestly take Manu over Kobe on a basketball court needs help. One guy is a great SG, and one guy is arguably top 5 SG in the history of the game.

[rawimpact]

All of these comparisons is starting to make me hate Manu for all of his late career hype.

Very pathetic.

[K.Koscik]

All of these comparisons is starting to make me hate Manu for all of his late career hype.

Very pathetic.

Agreed. I liked Manu but the sheer amount of people that overrate him is just terrible. At least it's not as bad as that guy saying Billups is better than everyone in the league (besides KG)

[out|hoops|side]

Well, it explains the 18 pages in this thread. SO yeah.

The only reason it is 18 pages long is because about 2 people think Manu is better than Kobe and the rest of us argued with these two for awhile then most of us gave up. But the two people who think Manu is better are really stubborn and unintelligent so they continue to argue this to death even though they are wrong.
That is why it is 18 pages long.

[plowking]

The most annoying thing about ISH is when one person is soo focused on one player and they constantly post about him, that I start to hate them not because of their game, but because of their fans.

[RonySeikalyFTW]

The most annoying thing about ISH is when one person is soo focused on one player and they constantly post about him, that I start to hate them not because of their game, but because of their fans.

I just assume they're all Manu trolls. I mean, WTF, who else could they be with all their nut garbling nonsense about Manu being top 10 at anything other than flopping?

[bdreason]

Switch Kobe and Manu's teams and I guarantee you Manu will be more productive in Lakers TODAY than Kobe. Kobe on the other hand will chuck around Timmy, Parker on the team and try to take control. He will end up shooting a low % when Kobe is on the Spurs.

Manu is the man....


but if Kobe was on the Spurs they would be the favorite to win the West, in my opinion.