Gervin " "I could get 30 or 40 every night real easy, these days"

[flu game]

http://www.thegoodpoint.com/basketball/oct08/the-man-and-the-monument-how-george-gervin-became-champion-of-the-people.html

[brandonislegend]

no.

[Loki]

30 probably, but not 40.

[Scott Pippen]

no.

in his prime he one of the all time great underrated scorers. IT is easier for individuals to score higher today and I believe him. 40 on a good night for him. 25-30 average:applause:

[Sir Charles]

George Gervin is one of the Greatest SGs ever by far a better scorer than Kobe could dream of being. This guy played in an era where handchecking existed, was 6`7, could leap, had major wingspan for his frame, could donate fundamentals to players of today and was fast quick like a gassel not to mention that after Jordan, he was probably the most difficult SG to stop when taking driving to the basket or taking a jumpshot frontwords. T

Some clips

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=sU4HLdrWAsc

[stephanieg]

Is it true that Gervin once said his idea of teamwork was when a team mate passed him the ball?

[JtotheIzzo]

in his prime he one of the all time great underrated scorers. IT is easier for individuals to score higher today and I believe him. 40 on a good night for him. 25-30 average:applause:

complete f*cking rubbish

watch a game from the seventies, defenses were a JOKE.

His BS finger roll would get swatted to the mezzanine level everytime he drove to the hoop.

The old man needs to shut his wrinkly old trap.

[flu game]

complete f*cking rubbish

watch a game from the seventies, defenses were a JOKE.

His BS finger roll would get swatted to the mezzanine level everytime he drove to the hoop.

The old man needs to shut his wrinkly old trap.

rubbish? i hate english accents and thats one of the man words in there vocabulary. that and wanker. rubbish and wanker?? get it? :lol

George Gervin is one of the Greatest SGs ever by far a better scorer than Kobe could dream of being. This guy played in an era where handchecking existed, was 6`7, could leap, had major wingspan for his frame, could donate fundamentals to players of today and was fast quick like a gassel not to mention that after Jordan, he was probably the most difficult SG to stop when taking driving to the basket or taking a jumpshot frontwords. T

Some clips

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=sU4HLdrWAsc

You have to be a god damn moron if you believe this crap.

[AItheAnswer3]

[QUOTE=

[Manute for Ever!]

30 probably, but not 40.

Agree :cheers:

[G-train]

Well he average 32 a game in '82 so he probably would average 30 in todays league.
We aren't talking about some scrub here, this is one of the best scorers in history we're talking about.

Well he average 32 a game in '82 so he probably would average 30 in todays league.
We aren't talking about some scrub here, this is one of the best scorers in history we're talking about.

Scoring 32 in the 80's is more like scoring 25 in todays league.
Why do people consistently over-look the pace of the game in the 80's?
Most teams in that era averaged over 100 PPG, today usually 1/3rd of the league does not.

[G-train]

complete f*cking rubbish

watch a game from the seventies, defenses were a JOKE.

His BS finger roll would get swatted to the mezzanine level everytime he drove to the hoop.

The old man needs to shut his wrinkly old trap.

yep cos he averaged 30 per just doing finger rolls.
:rolleyes:

[Psileas]

You have to be a god damn moron if you believe this crap.

What exactly among the things he said is crap? Enlighten us, please.

Gervin was a better and more efficient scorer than pretty much anyone. People get excited about the scoring performances of Iverson or, in the older says Dominique, but Gervin was a more efficient and productive scorer than both-actually holds the 2nd best career point/minute ratio ever, behind only Jordan. He also holds a career NBA FG% of 51.1%, which is impressive for a guy his size, regardless of era.

It's also funny how the dude mentions the defense of the 70's, yet ignores that he had his 2 most productive seasons in the 80's and that he averaged 20+ as late as in 1985, at the age of 33 (and in only 29.0 mpg of playing time).

So, his finger-roll would be blocked every time he'd drive, huh...Is that why dwarves like Tony Parker and last year's Navarro are so rarely blocked when attempting their "BS"? Is that why Billups who gets up like 5 inches off the ground rarely has his shot swatted away? Gervin has a good 4-5 inches over all of them, has long arms and could jump higher, especially compared to the last two. So, maybe, before starting talking about the "00's supermen", you need to put some things into perspective and realize that players haven't become that much better that quickly through time. Basketball isn't informatics, where a 3-year old technology is considered mainstream or even obsolete.

[G-train]

[QUOTE=

[AItheAnswer3]

okay, so you dont think George Gervin would average 30 points a game in todays league?

yes/no?

He can easily do that if he plays for a team with no offense.

What exactly among the things he said is crap? Enlighten us, please.

Gervin was a better and more efficient scorer than pretty much anyone. People get excited about the scoring performances of Iverson or, in the older says Dominique, but Gervin was a more efficient and productive scorer than both-actually holds the 2nd best career point/minute ratio ever, behind only Jordan. He also holds a career NBA FG% of 51.1%, which is impressive for a guy his size, regardless of era.

It's also funny how the dude mentions the defense of the 70's, yet ignores that he had his 2 most productive seasons in the 80's and that he averaged 20+ as late as in 1985, at the age of 33 (and in only 29.0 mpg of playing time).

So, his finger-roll would be blocked every time he'd drive, huh...Is that why dwarves like Tony Parker and last year's Navarro are so rarely blocked when attempting their "BS"? Is that why Billups who gets up like 5 inches off the ground rarely has his shot swatted away? Gervin has a good 4-5 inches over all of them, has long arms and could jump higher, especially compared to the last two. So, maybe, before starting talking about the "00's supermen", you need to put some things into perspective and realize that players haven't become that much better that quickly through time. Basketball isn't informatics, where a 3-year old technology is considered mainstream or even obsolete.

The little fact about Kobe "could only dream of" was a little over the top, wouldn't you say Mr. Basketball analysis.

No one said that Gervin wasn't one of the greatest scorer, try to look at the other guys post first before making your comments.

okay, so you dont think George Gervin would average 30 points a game in todays league?

yes/no?

Yes, he is one of the best scorer to ever play.
But saying statements like "Kobe could only dream of being as good as him" is a little far fetched considering what Kobe has achieved in his days as a scorer.

[3stat2]

There are too many people who don't pay the previous NBA eras enough respect. I think from reading this forum that that's pretty clear. One should always respect the history of the game.

But it also goes both ways - sometimes, not enough respect is given to the current league.

Regardless of whether or not he could actually drop 30/40, it's not a classy thing to say, especially considering the way he casually said "yeah, 30 or 40 real easy" - he's essentially devaluing the achievements of current players and implying that they're some kind of second-rate players.

Now is that not disrespecting the game just as much as those people who call previous eras 'weak'?

Is it not enough for people to just pay respect to all eras of the game? It annoys me that some people feel a need to put down other eras in order to make themselves look better.

[Psileas]

Scoring 32 in the 80's is more like scoring 25 in todays league.
Why do people consistently over-look the pace of the game in the 80's?
Most teams in that era averaged over 100 PPG, today usually 1/3rd of the league does not.

Your conversion is off. No era was ever 28% (=32/25) more productive than today's. Actually, the 1980 season was only 9.4% more productive than today's era, so Gervin having 32 ppg would translate to 29 ppg in around 37 mpg, which would rank #1 last season in terms of productivity per minute.

So there you have it. Pace was faster, but not that much faster.

[Psileas]

The little fact about Kobe "could only dream of" was a little over the top, wouldn't you say Mr. Basketball analysis.

No one said that Gervin wasn't one of the greatest scorer, try to look at the other guys post first before making your comments.

Then maybe, mr.

[QUOTE=Psileas]Then maybe, mr.

[Solid Snake]

He needs to just shut up and look for his AARP card, and KNOW the number before he calls in.

[Psileas]

You're a smart plug, considering his entire post was "bolded".
But yeah I should have been more clear about what I was quoting, my bad.
Point remains, I was merely commenting on his inaccurate comparison to Kobe then Gervin actually being one of the most prolific scorers of all-time.

I just don't see what warrants that guy to make such a statement in regards to a player that has averaged 35 PPG in the modern era. Pretty absurd.

I agree about the Kobe hyperbole. Kobe, after all, is a player whom "Sir Charles" doesn't like, anyway and it's well-known he's biased against him.

And I had forgotten that he bolds his own messages. Partially because when I quote messages, I never bother to copy the exact same type of the writer's style. If he writes in green, I won't bother to quote his text in green, as well. I didn't use the "bold" thing for sarcasm reasons.

[plowking]

Basketball is the only sport where the previous generation is considered better then the current generation. This is ridiculous first of all. People actually think the game has gone backwards and that players are becoming worse?

[Manute for Ever!]

People actually think the game has gone backwards and that players are becoming worse?

Yes. yes they do. Flashier doesn't mean better.

[IllegalD]

Kobe >>>>> Gayrvin

[StroShow4]

the old/retired dudes always think they were better than the young/current dudes. nothing to see here, just another old man who doesn't like how the game has changed.

[AllenIverson3]

I hear this bull**** like he would score 30 ppg or even 40, wtf he would even make the ****ing NBA!

[SayTownRy]

i see the ice man at the golf course from time to time. he still looks to be in great shape.

bet he's still got the shooting touch too.

[Psileas]

Actually, the point of the article (for anyone who cared to read) wasn't even what the thread title says. The real point is that Gervin was one of the underrated superstars of his days and that he'd be viewed differently if he played in today's era, when high scoring individual performances got so much exposure. That's what he says himself:


"When I played, the media wasn't as involved, the technology wasn't there," said Gervin. "If the world had a chance to see a lot of the guys - like myself - in this era, we would probably be looked at differently."

Whether you agree or not with his estimations of how good he'd be today, that's one thing. But you can't disagree with this quote. It's pretty obvious, really. Today, all of his good moves would be caught on camera, there would be Youtube videos here and there, young fans would be talking about him more. Most 70's and 80's players usually needed to win at least a championship as the #1 men or be complete showmen like Maravich or combine showmanship with drug problems or issues with the league, like D.Thompson or Connie Hawkins to even hope that their bio/career would be caught by a documentary, making them known to future generations. Gervin never won the title, wasn't a 100% showman and his drug problems came too late and never became such a big issue for him. That meant that he'd get no exposure. We don't need documentaries now to know about even second-rate stars, like Ginobili or Redd, let alone the top guns.

[Manute for Ever!]

I hear this bull**** like he would score 30 ppg or even 40, wtf he would even make the ****ing NBA!

Well, he is 56 years old, so you're probably right.

[Manute for Ever!]

Keep telling it like it is, Psileas :cheers:

[Psileas]

I hear this bull**** like he would score 30 ppg or even 40, wtf he would even make the ****ing NBA!

:oldlol:

[plowking]

Yes. yes they do. Flashier doesn't mean better.

Actually I'd say previous generations were flashier. The game has improved, there is no way that you think the 60's, 70's and 80's are better then todays basketball. Late 80's and 90's is probably the strongest point of basketball, though even now, defenders are better then they were before.

[Silverbullit]

It's not THAT easy to score 30 or 40 every night, so I don't believe it.

[RainierBeachPoet]

i grew up watching the iceman and he was a serious scoring machine.

in fact, i really liked the run and gun offense that san anton had in the late 70s/early 80s. they were a very entertaining team to watch and once they picked up artis gilmore, they had a very effective low post game too (although i liked mike mitchell in the post too). if a couple of playoff series games 7 went their way, that spurs team easily could have been champs

i wouldnt bet against gervin getting thirty a game (40 is a stretch but i think he was just speaking in hyperbole) if he were in his prime and playing in 2008. he got most of his points off of mid range jumpers so the changes in current rules hoops would be to his advantage as a scorer.

the one thing that would be very different for ice would be the size of the guards these days. ice used to be able to effectively isolate his man who was generally 3-7 inches shorter than he was. being a 6-7 guard was a big advantage for ice. most clubs these days could put a taller guard on him which i believe would make gervin have to work harder at scoring. but if i were his coach, i would just run him off of more screens to more easily free him up

one thing is for sure though: he is a legit hall of famer. the folks here at ish who didnt have a chance to see him play would know differently if you had seen him as many years as i did, he would flourish in any era because of his great jumper and aiblity to score-- every era looks for those kind of guys

[Scott Pippen]

Basketball is the only sport where the previous generation is considered better then the current generation. This is ridiculous first of all. People actually think the game has gone backwards and that players are becoming worse?

not always worse players, but it is the way the game is being played. Much easier to score now for wing players. Hard for centers. That is purpose of zone defense. Do you really think Shaquille declined THAT FAST?

Physical talent level is up, but fundamental IQ's and basketball skill combine with NBA rule changes in my opinion the true game is not what is used to be. Still great, but not the same.

[plowking]

not always worse players, but it is the way the game is being played. Much easier to score now for wing players. Hard for centers. That is purpose of zone defense. Do you really think Shaquille declined THAT FAST?

Physical talent level is up, but fundamental IQ's and basketball skill combine with NBA rule changes in my opinion the true game is not what is used to be. Still great, but not the same.

He really didn't decline that fast. Look at his numbers. There was a slow and steady drop.

[plowking]

not always worse players, but it is the way the game is being played. Much easier to score now for wing players. Hard for centers. That is purpose of zone defense. Do you really think Shaquille declined THAT FAST?

Physical talent level is up, but fundamental IQ's and basketball skill combine with NBA rule changes in my opinion the true game is not what is used to be. Still great, but not the same.

If anything it has more to do with IQ today. The game is simply not free flowing like it used to be, and thats why I think it is less enjoyable to most these days, as rankings would suggest.

The game has improved, as all sports and progressive activities do over time.

[NuggetsFan]

I love it how 75% of the posters are probably anywhere from 14-18 and have not seen the Ice man play and are just throwing there two cents in for the heck of it, I dont understand how they can really argue with someone who actauly was around during those eras? Just by looking at a boxscore and some espn classics and looking at some old game tape, Basically I never seen him play so I cant make an input to the extent to get into an argument with someone who has been around the game far longer then I have(Unless he is a complete moron. But I really just wanted to point that out, half of these kids think they know more than a adult who has been around the game before they were born, Sorry if I'm way off an all of you have seen him play or atleast were around close to that era lol

[picc84]

Is it true that Gervin once said his idea of teamwork was when a team mate passed him the ball?

Thats classic. :oldlol:

I miss those days when people could be as arrogant and cocky as they wanted to, as long as they were good/winning. Before you had to be all PC and careful about what you say. Bird, MJ, Barkley, and now Gervin have all become quotable icons to me.

Bring back the olden days. :applause:

[allball]

Allen Iverson, Earl Boykins and Gilbert Arenas can score in this league but Ice can't. too funny.

[allball]

i grew up watching the iceman and he was a serious scoring machine.

in fact, i really liked the run and gun offense that san anton had in the late 70s/early 80s. they were a very entertaining team to watch and once they picked up artis gilmore, they had a very effective low post game too (although i liked mike mitchell in the post too). if a couple of playoff series games 7 went their way, that spurs team easily could have been champs

i wouldnt bet against gervin getting thirty a game (40 is a stretch but i think he was just speaking in hyperbole) if he were in his prime and playing in 2008. he got most of his points off of mid range jumpers so the changes in current rules hoops would be to his advantage as a scorer.

the one thing that would be very different for ice would be the size of the guards these days. ice used to be able to effectively isolate his man who was generally 3-7 inches shorter than he was. being a 6-7 guard was a big advantage for ice. most clubs these days could put a taller guard on him which i believe would make gervin have to work harder at scoring. but if i were his coach, i would just run him off of more screens to more easily free him up

one thing is for sure though: he is a legit hall of famer. the folks here at ish who didnt have a chance to see him play would know differently if you had seen him as many years as i did, he would flourish in any era because of his great jumper and aiblity to score-- every era looks for those kind of guys

amen brother. most of these younguns are out there doing moves nowadays they didn't even know Ice invented.

[Kebab Stall]

Damn, didn't realise ISH got this bad, there's only 3-4 guys in this thread who aren't talking out of their arse.

This league has many players who can score, yet you wouldn't think they could, or wouldn't have much of a chance, but then you have people saying that Gervin couldn't score in this league? That's ignorance at it's finest. The players of today are not as mighty as some of you think.

[T-Low]

complete f*cking rubbish

watch a game from the seventies, defenses were a JOKE.

His BS finger roll would get swatted to the mezzanine level everytime he drove to the hoop.

The old man needs to shut his wrinkly old trap.

Remember though that the 3-point field goal wasn't implemented till October of 79.....So scoring 30 on any given night, even with lack of defense (but still defense nontheless) was still a challenge...

[BIZARRO]

Damn, didn't realise ISH got this bad, there's only 3-4 guys in this thread who aren't talking out of their arse.

This league has many players who can score, yet you wouldn't think they could, or wouldn't have much of a chance, but then you have people saying that Gervin couldn't score in this league? That's ignorance at it's finest. The players of today are not as mighty as some of you think.


Agreed. If anyone actually read the whole article there are some pretty incredible things in there:

Such as Ice scoring 63 points in 33 minutes AT WILL, because he was trying to beat David Thompson out for the scoring title.

Such as Ice scoring 33 in a quarter, etc.

Such as Ice scoring 35 in the 1st half at the end of his career.


Which brings me to a larger point...

You could make a case that this article is the most revealing one yet into Kobe's 81 point game, and how other great scorers could have achieved that pretty easily if they had so chosen to do so.

If Ice had 63 points in 33 minutes, that is over a 90 pt. performance over 48 minutes. Take off some for rest, and it is still well over 81.
In addition his 53 first half points, speaks to Kobe's incredible 2nd half.
Do you seriously think that after Ice scored 53 in the first half, he couldn't have scored about half in that in the 2nd half for 81?

David Thompson in the article scored 73 AT WILL as well just before. And we've of course heard about DRob's 71 in a similar scenario.

All of this evidence would lead one to believe that any truly great scorer could if they so choose make their mind up, with teammates in the background, to score an incredible amount of points.

Of course they would have to be truly great scorers like Ice, MJ, Kobe, Dominique, etc.

P.S. Kobe's game is still incredible, as is Wilt's, but this article is an eye opener to just how easy it is to amass numbers at will if great scorers so choose. And to just how great Ice was and would be today. :bowdown:

[RainierBeachPoet]

i remember this last day of the season drama when ice and dt were vying for the scoring championship

if i recall, both of these games were insignificant in terms of the playoffs so both teams were just feeding ice and dt for them to score. the goal of the game wasnt team play and to win the game, but for their teammate to win the scoring title

i would bet that if just scoring a bunch of points was the goal of all sorts of teams these days, there are guys who could put up 60+ points too

ish would have had a forum discussion field day with all of this (if the internet existed back then!)


Agreed. If anyone actually read the whole article there are some pretty incredible things in there:

Such as Ice scoring 63 points in 33 minutes AT WILL, because he was trying to beat David Thompson out for the scoring title.

Such as Ice scoring 33 in a quarter, etc.

Such as Ice scoring 35 in the 1st half at the end of his career.


Which brings me to a larger point...

You could make a case that this article is the most revealing one yet into Kobe's 81 point game, and how other great scorers could have achieved that pretty easily if they had so chosen to do so.

If Ice had 63 points in 33 minutes, that is over a 90 pt. performance over 48 minutes. Take off some for rest, and it is still well over 81.
In addition his 53 first half points, speaks to Kobe's incredible 2nd half.
Do you seriously think that after Ice scored 53 in the first half, he couldn't have scored about half in that in the 2nd half for 81?

David Thompson in the article scored 73 AT WILL as well just before. And we've of course heard about DRob's 71 in a similar scenario.

All of this evidence would lead one to believe that any truly great scorer could if they so choose make their mind up, with teammates in the background, to score an incredible amount of points.

Of course they would have to be truly great scorers like Ice, MJ, Kobe, Dominique, etc.

P.S. Kobe's game is still incredible, as is Wilt's, but this article is an eye opener to just how easy it is to amass numbers at will if great scorers so choose. And to just how great Ice was and would be today. :bowdown:

[Da_Realist]

Agreed. If anyone actually read the whole article there are some pretty incredible things in there:

Such as Ice scoring 63 points in 33 minutes AT WILL, because he was trying to beat David Thompson out for the scoring title.

Such as Ice scoring 33 in a quarter, etc.

Such as Ice scoring 35 in the 1st half at the end of his career.


Which brings me to a larger point...

You could make a case that this article is the most revealing one yet into Kobe's 81 point game, and how other great scorers could have achieved that pretty easily if they had so chosen to do so.

If Ice had 63 points in 33 minutes, that is over a 90 pt. performance over 48 minutes. Take off some for rest, and it is still well over 81.
In addition his 53 first half points, speaks to Kobe's incredible 2nd half.
Do you seriously think that after Ice scored 53 in the first half, he couldn't have scored about half in that in the 2nd half for 81?

David Thompson in the article scored 73 AT WILL as well just before. And we've of course heard about DRob's 71 in a similar scenario.

All of this evidence would lead one to believe that any truly great scorer could if they so choose make their mind up, with teammates in the background, to score an incredible amount of points.

Of course they would have to be truly great scorers like Ice, MJ, Kobe, Dominique, etc.

P.S. Kobe's game is still incredible, as is Wilt's, but this article is an eye opener to just how easy it is to amass numbers at will if great scorers so choose. And to just how great Ice was and would be today. :bowdown:

Great point. :applause:

[L.Kizzle]

Not to mention Ice had most of his big scoring games with no 3 point line. The 63 was in '78 and in only 33 minutes. nd not to mention, Ice was winning scoring titles in the '80s, not the WEAK '70s (though he had some in the '70s) as some will claim.

Ice would average 30+ in this era. Hell Arenas dropped 29, Bron dropped 30, T-Mac dropped 32, AI 33 and Kobe 35, why couldn't he?

[NugzFan]

lol stfu "iceman" - you couldnt even come close. :lol

[Sir Charles]

What exactly among the things he said is crap? Enlighten us, please.

Gervin was a better and more efficient scorer than pretty much anyone. People get excited about the scoring performances of Iverson or, in the older says Dominique, but Gervin was a more efficient and productive scorer than both-actually holds the 2nd best career point/minute ratio ever, behind only Jordan. He also holds a career NBA FG% of 51.1%, which is impressive for a guy his size, regardless of era.

It's also funny how the dude mentions the defense of the 70's, yet ignores that he had his 2 most productive seasons in the 80's and that he averaged 20+ as late as in 1985, at the age of 33 (and in only 29.0 mpg of playing time).

So, his finger-roll would be blocked every time he'd drive, huh...Is that why dwarves like Tony Parker and last year's Navarro are so rarely blocked when attempting their "BS"? Is that why Billups who gets up like 5 inches off the ground rarely has his shot swatted away? Gervin has a good 4-5 inches over all of them, has long arms and could jump higher, especially compared to the last two. So, maybe, before starting talking about the "00's supermen", you need to put some things into perspective and realize that players haven't become that much better that quickly through time. Basketball isn't informatics, where a 3-year old technology is considered mainstream or even obsolete.

Also one must add to the fact that not everything as time passes gets bettered. Music of the 70s and 80s is way superior and not to mention 80s music is way modern sounding than the 90s and 2000s. Newer does not mean more advanced-more modern etc it just means newer. The game had more friction before and handchecking: the ability to tire down your opponent while always having a "chance" to see where he was moving was a wepone that made it more difficult for scorers to actually score more and at a higher %. Another thing we must add is that if the game is more competitive today around the world doesn`t mean **** because back then in the NBA only the REALLY GOOD FUNDAMENTAL PLAYERS where chosen or those whom HAD EXTREAME AMOUNTS OF TALENT. Very few was there a chance of "lets see what`s going to happen with that kid":no: . To end the game game creative wise, talent wise, fundamentally wise, basketball iq wise, team play wise etc has decreae the last 15 or so years. The only thing that has kept going well is athletic abilities, that snce the 80s.

:confusedshrug:

[MaxFly]

http://www.thegoodpoint.com/basketball/oct08/the-man-and-the-monument-how-george-gervin-became-champion-of-the-people.html

I don't doubt that he could average 30 a season... but it wouldn't be 40, and it wouldn't be "real easy." Teams aren't giving up 108, 109 points on average anymore.

[w00terz]

30 a night easily? Maybe. 40 a night easily? Stretching it. He was a phenomenal player but I think he got a little arrogant with his claims.

[dnyk1337]

And Bill Russell would average 25 rebounds a game easily.

[abuC]

That's ignorance at it's finest. The players of today are not as mighty as some of you think.


And on the flipside, the players today arent as awful as some people make it seem.

Players of today are almost always put down in favor of players from the past on here.

[L.Kizzle]

And Bill Russell would average 25 rebounds a game easily.
Well Russell never averaged over 25 in any season, but Gervin on the other hand averaged over 30 twice (32 and 33 to be exact.)

[guy]

Its not as bad as Wilt saying he would average 60-70 ppg in the 90s.

[dnyk1337]

Well Russell never averaged over 25 in any season, but Gervin on the other hand averaged over 30 twice (32 and 33 to be exact.)

Never averaged 40 though. Just an old star trying to become relevant again. His spotlight is over.

[L.Kizzle]

Never averaged 40 though. Just an old star trying to become relevant again. His spotlight is over.
"Don't hate the player, hate the game"

[Chrono90]

it can be easy for him to score.. but every night is an overstatement. 40 ppg for a season. Gervin?? dont think so

[Godfather]

George Gervin is one of the Greatest SGs ever by far a better scorer than Kobe could dream of being. This guy played in an era where handchecking existed, was 6`7, could leap, had major wingspan for his frame, could donate fundamentals to players of today and was fast quick like a gassel not to mention that after Jordan, he was probably the most difficult SG to stop when taking driving to the basket or taking a jumpshot frontwords. T

Some clips

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=sU4HLdrWAsc

I would like to see Gervin get those kind of #'s against the zone.

[stephanieg]

I would like to see Gervin get those kind of #'s against the zone.

Yeah man, even since they allowed teams to start using zones and shading no one ever scores over 30 anymore. Sucks.

[Sir Charles]

I agree about the Kobe hyperbole. Kobe, after all, is a player whom "Sir Charles" doesn't like, anyway and it's well-known he's biased against him.

And I had forgotten that he bolds his own messages. Partially because when I quote messages, I never bother to copy the exact same type of the writer's style. If he writes in green, I won't bother to quote his text in green, as well. I didn't use the "bold" thing for sarcasm reasons.

Wrong I don`t hate on Bryant I think Bryant is the Best SG in the laste 8-10 years but he doesn`t have the the fundamentals Ice had "Scoring Wise" just "Scoring Wise". Bryant is probably an all around better player and maybe even more skilled in a "1 on 1 off the dribble" (ala Jordan) game but Ice`s front "face jump shots", "foot work to post shoot" and when "finding his way through the lane or onto the basket in general using the backboard or finger rolls" are way superior offensive skills than Bryant`s (in general). Ice was a leaper, quick as hell , great foot work and fundamentals to get his jumpers, off the backboard shots and lay ups off etc, was 6`7 and had wingspan of a typical 6`9er probably...that makes him way more of a threat comming on to the basket reason why he shot at a way superior FG% than Bryant and in a time where handchecking was allowed.

[Niquesports]

Basketball is the only sport where the previous generation is considered better then the current generation. This is ridiculous first of all. People actually think the game has gone backwards and that players are becoming worse?


Can you name any runningback intodays game better than JIm Brown
Can you name 5 better baseplayers in todays game better than Hank Aaron,Mickey Mantle,Willie mays, Babe Ruth, Joe Dmagigo can you name a better boxer today than Ali,Joe Louis can you name a better hockey player today than Wayne G. So I guess basketball isnt the only sport that the old legends are better than todays players.

[Sir Charles]

Can you name any runningback intodays game better than JIm Brown
Can you name 5 better baseplayers in todays game better than Hank Aaron,Mickey Mantle,Willie mays, Babe Ruth, Joe Dmagigo can you name a better boxer today than Ali,Joe Louis can you name a better hockey player today than Wayne G. So I guess basketball isnt the only sport that the old legends are better than todays players.

Exactly to be great in these days doesn`t make you better than before`s players (just because excessive marketing, superior global communications etc) and in basketball it has clearly been show by coaches (who still coach today) and ex players that very few players of today are great compared to the 80s and 90s span of talent in most areas :confusedshrug:

Todays players can mostly be compared skill wise to the 70s span (ofcourse athletically they are more 80s and 90s) and even some 70s players are clearly superior to the ones today: Jabbar for example can only be compared to likes of Hakeem and Shaq.

Shaq is one example of a somewhat modern player whom would be a Top All Time 4-5 Center in any era. Same with Garnett Defensively and All Around Wise (offensive scoring wise he can`t)

Guys like Allen Iverson would not be considered as great if the handchecking rules were kept not to mention the hard way of play of the 80s: no puss fouls. Also all the flashy athletic leaping guys that appeared in the drafts of the 90s ended up having no chance on the 80s draft Legends or Great Role Players: that was clearly shown as these 80s Draft Legends and Roke Players Drafted in that era totally (not half way but totally) dominated the league up un till 2000 (1st team with more 90s drafts that finally won). The fact is very 90s stars achieved the same impact as those 80s draft players and in most cases where totally over shadowed by the Jordan`s, Barkley`s, Hakeem`s, Ewings etc.

Only the rich in fundamentals 90s draft players where not over shadowed such as : Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Payton, Chris Webber and very few more.

More Examples:

Soccer:

Any Player today has the All Around Fundamental Offensive Skills as Pele? :no: (player of the 50s-60s-70s)
Any Player today has more Impact or is More Modern (80s player) than Rudd Gullit? (whom lasted only 5-6yers before they destroyed his leggs because he was to much of an impact player: think of Kaka but add to that = speed, potence, center forward headering capacity and way more defensive skills: could play Central Back, Full Back etc) :no:
Any Player today has the Technical Efficiency in a Fast Break (counter attack) or Scoring Efficiency than Teofilo Cubillas? :no: (player from the 60s-70s)
Any Player today has the Scoring Fundamentals as Marco Van Basten? :no:
Any Player today has Superior 1 on 1 Offensive Skills per meter than Romario? :no:
Any Defender today has more in General Skills and Soccer IQ than Franz Beckenbauer? :no: (player from the 60s-70s)
Any goal Keeper today has the Goal Keeping IQ as Rinat Dasaev ? (Russia Goal Keeper of the 70s and 80s) :no:
Any goal Keeper today more Agil or Athletic than Thomas Knokono? (Camerun Goal Keeper of the 70s-80s-90s)

Any Boxer toady has a harder jab than Mike Tyson today? :no:

Etc..like those there are many examples

[abuC]

Can you name any runningback intodays game better than JIm Brown
Can you name 5 better baseplayers in todays game better than Hank Aaron,Mickey Mantle,Willie mays, Babe Ruth, Joe Dmagigo can you name a better boxer today than Ali,Joe Louis can you name a better hockey player today than Wayne G. So I guess basketball isnt the only sport that the old legends are better than todays players.

In 30 years people will be saying the same thing about guys today, the problem is you're judging people that are still playing and havent etched their legacies in stone yet, against guys who already have.


And :roll: Babe Ruth and Joe Dimaggio, I cant take any athlete serious when their were segregated leagues.

[abuC]

Any Boxer toady has a harder jab than Mike Tyson today? :no:

Etc..like those there are many examples
:roll:

Yes, plenty of heavyweights with harder jabs than Mike, he barely even used a jab.

[Sir Charles]

:roll:

Yes, Mike Tyson barely even used a jab.

I ment hit any hit. His hit register is still the strongest till date and he is an 80s and early 90s boxer.

Any Heavyweight more Skilled, Agil or as Quick as Cassius Clay? :no:

[Sir Charles]

:roll:

Yes, Mike Tyson barely even used a jab.

I ment hit any hit. His hit register is still the strongest till date and he is an 80s and early 90s boxer.

Any Heavyweight more Skilled, Agil or as Quick as Cassius Clay? :no:

[Niquesports]

Exactly to be great in these days doesn`t make you better than before`s players (just because excessive marketing, superior global communications etc) and in basketball it has clearly been show by coaches (who still coach today) and ex players that very few players of today are great compared to the 80s and 90s span of talent in most areas :confusedshrug:

Todays players can mostly be compared skill wise to the 70s span (ofcourse athletically they are more 80s and 90s) and even some 70s players are clearly superior to the ones today: Jabbar for example can only be compared to likes of Hakeem and Shaq.

Shaq is one example of a somewhat modern player whom would be a Top All Time 4-5 Center in any era. Same with Garnett Defensively and All Around Wise (offensive scoring wise he can`t)

Guys like Allen Iverson would not be considered as great if the handchecking rules were kept not to mention the hard way of play of the 80s: no puss fouls. Also all the flashy athletic leaping guys that appeared in the drafts of the 90s ended up having no chance on the 80s draft Legends or Great Role Players: that was clearly shown as these 80s Draft Legends and Roke Players Drafted in that era totally (not half way but totally) dominated the league up un till 2000 (1st team with more 90s drafts that finally won). The fact is very 90s stars achieved the same impact as those 80s draft players and in most cases where totally over shadowed by the Jordan`s, Barkley`s, Hakeem`s, Ewings etc.

Only the rich in fundamentals 90s draft players where not over shadowed such as : Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Payton, Chris Webber and very few more.

More Examples:

Soccer:

Any Player today has the All Around Fundamental Offensive Skills as Pele? :no: (player of the 50s-60s-70s)
Any Player today has more Impact or is More Modern (80s player) than Rudd Gullit? (whom lasted only 5-6yers before they destroyed his leggs because he was to much of an impact player: think of Kaka but add to that = speed, potence, center forward headering capacity and way more defensive skills: could play Central Back, Full Back etc) :no:
Any Player today has the Technical Efficiency in a Fast Break (counter attack) or Scoring Efficiency than Teofilo Cubillas? :no: (player from the 60s-70s)
Any Player today has the Scoring Fundamentals as Marco Van Basten? :no:
Any Player today has Superior 1 on 1 Offensive Skills per meter than Romario? :no:
Any Defender today has more in General Skills and Soccer IQ than Franz Beckenbauer? :no: (player from the 60s-70s)
Any goal Keeper today has the Goal Keeping IQ as Rinat Dasaev ? (Russia Goal Keeper of the 70s and 80s) :no:
Any goal Keeper today more Agil or Athletic than Thomas Knokono? (Camerun Goal Keeper of the 70s-80s-90s)

Any Boxer toady has a harder jab than Mike Tyson today? :no:

Etc..like those there are many examples


I think in any sports you will only find about 5 players that can be mentioned in the all time class of there sport per era.I think the 70's is the most underrated era in basketball.

[Sir Charles]

:roll:

Yes, plenty of heavyweights with harder jabs than Mike, he barely even used a jab.

Sorry i ment hit. Any boxer today has a harder hit than Tyson? Strongest registered hit till today :confusedshrug:

Any Tennis player has More Natural Talent than Mcenroe whom even went against using stiff Racket`s because he said "That Helps Less Talented Players Be Better than They Really Are"

[abuC]

I ment hit any hit. His hit register is still the strongest till date and he is an 80s and early 90s boxer.

Any Heavyweight more Skilled, Agil or as Quick as Cassius Clay? :no:


Hit register? This isnt Rocky 4, when did anyone calculate Mike's power? Also, George Foreman is probably the hardest puncher in heavyweight history.


Nope, there arent any heavyweights as gifted as Ali, but then again Boxing was second only to baseball then in terms of popularity, now you have a much smaller talent pool to pick from. Most American athletes that fit the body mold of heavyweight boxer are steered towards football or basketball.


Look, I get it, you think everything from 1960-1980 is greater than today, my grandfather is the same way about the 40s and 50s, that doesnt make it true.

[Niquesports]

In 30 years people will be saying the same thing about guys today, the problem is you're judging people that are still playing and havent etched their legacies in stone yet, against guys who already have.


And :roll: Babe Ruth and Joe Dimaggio, I cant take any athlete serious when their were segregated leagues.


I can agree with your point but with the exception of say maybe Kobe,LBJ that from what you have seen will be even considered in a all time class I already said Shaq and I dont think at this point in his career Paul is better that players like Tiny,Walt Frazier ect. but the jury is still out on him

[Niquesports]

Hit register? This isnt Rocky 4, when did anyone calculate Mike's power? Also, George Foreman is probably the hardest puncher in heavyweight history.


Nope, there arent any heavyweights as gifted as Ali, but then again Boxing was second only to baseball then in terms of popularity, now you have a much smaller talent pool to pick from. Most American athletes that fit the body mold of heavyweight boxer are steered towards football or basketball.


Look, I get it, you think everything from 1960-1980 is greater than today, my grandfather is the same way about the 40s and 50s, that doesnt make it true.
No thats not my point my point is that todays basketball is not better than the old days just evolved with bigger stronger playerds due to modern tech. and training.

[abuC]

I can agree with your point but with the exception of say maybe Kobe,LBJ that from what you have seen will be even considered in a all time class I already said Shaq and I dont think at this point in his career Paul is better that players like Tiny,Walt Frazier ect. but the jury is still out on him



If I had a crystal ball I'd be able to tell you, it's too hard to say who will be what, players emerge and some come from out of nowhere. In the 80s, people had their doubts about Jordan, look at how he turned out.

[Sir Charles]

Hit register? This isnt Rocky 4, when did anyone calculate Mike's power? Also, George Foreman is probably the hardest puncher in heavyweight history.


Nope, there arent any heavyweights as gifted as Ali, but then again Boxing was second only to baseball then in terms of popularity, now you have a much smaller talent pool to pick from. Most American athletes that fit the body mold of heavyweight boxer are steered towards football or basketball.


Look, I get it, you think everything from 1960-1980 is greater than today, my grandfather is the same way about the 40s and 50s, that doesnt make it true.

Foreman i think has the strongest jab ever and overall Tyson has the strongest punch or upper cutt something like but here you go again: Foreman a boxer from the 70s-80s and early 90s and Tyson and 80s-90s Boxers. We are entering the year 2010 and still there is no heavy weight that has registered those types of punches. Then again, Ali-Clay from the 60s and 70s still there has not been a more skilled or quick heavy Weight till today. :confusedshrug:

By the way increasing the Competition Pool does not mean that there will appear just by Magic Better Boxers, Players etc:no: ...that is actually totally biased because by doing so you are "Spreading the Quality of Competition". "Compeition Which Overall Has Not Been Tested!. What makes you thinkl that there is actual QUALITY Competition?.

In the 80s very few players entered the NBA: American or Non American, so the level of competition and talent that entered the league was TOP of the TOP. Todays Europeans have gotten better in regards to their peer Americans but what is that has closen the gap between them and the Us? That gap has not closen only because of the popularity of the Sport World Wide and more people overseas playing but = European Players have Kept to the Fundamentals they saw in the 70s and 80s while Americans have not.

That is why Any Average Role Player in Europe can play in the actual NBA back in the 90's and 80s very few could: players like Toni Kucoc, Petrovich, Saboins if they played in todays NBA PRIME ages 22 to 32 they would school BIg Time, Big Time because in the NBA for the last 10-12 years there has occured the entrance of to many unfundamental pricks that yes can Jump Nice, Dunk Cool, Have Some Nice Moves but have the worst of All Fundamentals Seen in 30 Years or So. :confusedshrug:

[Sir Charles]

No thats not my point my point is that todays basketball is not better than the old days just evolved with bigger stronger playerds due to modern tech. and training.

Bigger stronger players? :no: :banghead: :hammerhead: :rolleyes:

Name one 6`4/6`5er in the NBA today that is as strong as Charles Barkley was? Yes the dude that picked up Shaq like a waste basket from the ground at age 36.?

I see none today :rolleyes:

Overall there is only one 7 footer that is as strong or stronger than Shaq and that is Wilt, a Player from the 60s escentially...I see none today other than Shaq

Name one PG stronger than Magic? I see none today

Name one one SG stronger than Jordan? I see none today

Actually in the 80s and 90s there was a tendancy to choose PFs that where stocky breed not thin breed like what i see today. Guys like Charles Oakley, Kevin Willis, Anthony Mason, Rick Mahorn, Otis Thorpe etc would crush 95% of the Powerforwards of today Strength wise because the NBA requiered physical play back then, while todays NBA has a policy of forced will in creating skilled players, because there arent many. Evidence: helping perimeter players score easier with the no handcheckin rules, easy lanes on to the basket, 5 second rule tured around the basket is anti Stocky Player etc..

[abuC]

Foreman i think has the strongest jab ever and overall Tyson has the strongest punch or upper cutt something like but here you go again: Foreman a boxer from the 70s-80s and early 90s and Tyson and 80s-90s Boxers. We are entering the year 2010 and still there is no heavy weight that has registered those types of punches. Then again, Ali-Clay from the 60s and 70s still there has not been a more skilled or quick heavy Weight till today. :confusedshrug:

What are you talking about, do you even know what a jab is? Foreman didnt even have a great jab, you clearly dont know anything about boxing and are just rambling. Tyson had explosive punches, but George and Earnie Shavers hit much much harder. The heavyweight division has been dead for the last 10 years, using it to try and prove some point is stupid. Again, the NFL and NBA are where all the prospects that fit the current modern heavyweight body type are at currently.


By the way increasing the Competition Pool does not mean that there will appear just by Magic Better Boxers, Players etc:no: ...that is actually totally biased because by doing so you are "Spreading the Quality of Competition". "Compeition Which Overall Has Not Been Tested!. What makes you thinkl that there is actual QUALITY Competition?.


:roll:

You cannot be serious, the modern heavyweight should be between 6"3 and 6"8 & between 240-260lbs, what athletes fit that criteria? No, better boxers wouldnt magically appear but there would be more people between that body type actually training and working on their skills. And anytime you increase a talent pool you end up with better competition in the long run, if the NBA sticks with 30 teams for the next 5-10 years you will see more and more quality players on each team. It's simple statistics.




In the 80s very few players entered the NBA: American or Non American, so the level of competition and talent that entered the league was TOP of the TOP. Todays Europeans have gotten better in regards to their peer Americans but what is the kep to the gap that has closen between them and the Us? That gap is not only popularity of the Sport World Wide but = European Players have Kept to the Fundamentals they saw in the 70s and 80s while Americans have not.

That is why Any Average Role Player in Europe can play in the actual NBA back in the 90's and 80s very few could: players like Toni Kucoc, Petrovich, Saboins if they played in todays NBA PRIME ages 22 to 32 they would school BIg Time, Big Time because in the NBA for the last 10-12 years there has occured the entrance of to many unfundamental pricks that yes can Jump Nice, Dunk Cool, Have Some Nice Moves but have the worst of All Fundamentals Seen in 25 Years or So. :confusedshrug: [/B]


This is complete and utter garbage, Im sorry but you're just not a rational thinker. You sound like an ESPN talking point with all this crap about fundamentals, basically regurgitating whatever trash you've picked up. Everything you've just vomited out is nothing more than opinion, where are the facts to back it up?

[G-train]

Maggette would be stronger than Jordan.

[eliteballer]

Gervin got 32 and 33 a game in the 80's, I think he would probably be around 28-30 today.

[abuC]

Maggette would be stronger than Jordan.


No, Jordan used to bench press the team bus before games.


Also, Craig Smith is probably stronger than Barkley, and roughly the same height.

[Niquesports]

Bigger stronger players? :no: :banghead: :hammerhead: :rolleyes:

Name one 6`4/6`5er in the NBA today that is as strong as Charles Barkley was? Yes the dude that picked up Shaq like a waste basket from the ground at age 36.?

I see none today :rolleyes:

Overall there is only one 7 footer that is as strong or stronger than Shaq and that is Wilt, a Player from the 60s escentially...I see none today other than Shaq

Name one PG stronger than Magic? I see none today

Name one one SG stronger than Jordan? I see none today

Actually in the 80s and 90s there was a tendancy to choose PFs that where stocky breed not thin breed like what i see today. Guys like Charles Oakley, Kevin Willis, Anthony Mason, Rick Mahorn, Otis Thorpe etc would crush 95% of the Powerforwards of today Strength wise because the NBA requiered physical play back then, while todays NBA has a policy of forced will in creating skilled players, because there arent many. Evidence: helping perimeter players score easier with the no handcheckin rules, easy lanes on to the basket, 5 second rule tured around the basket is anti Stocky Player etc..


IF you think any player in any other era is bigger than LBJ your nuts. I would say Kobe is just as strong as Jordan Maybe i didnt make my point because of conditioning changes players are strong that doesnt mean they had the same strength Wes Unseld was strong as a mule but I bet even in his prime he could out lift D Howard in a weight room.

[AItheAnswer3]

IF you think any player in any other era is bigger than LBJ your nuts. I would say Kobe is just as strong as Jordan Maybe i didnt make my point because of conditioning changes players are strong that doesnt mean they had the same strength Wes Unseld was strong as a mule but I bet even in his prime he could out lift D Howard in a weight room.

Yeah, LBJ's a freak of nature. Its not even funny how easily he gets to the hoop. Anyway, you cant really argue with Sir Charles. He hates the current players.

[Sir Charles]

You cannot be serious, the modern heavyweight should be between 6"3 and 6"8 & between 240-260lbs, what athletes fit that criteria? No, better boxers wouldnt magically appear but there would be more people between that body type actually training and working on their skills. And anytime you increase a talent pool you end up with better competition in the long run, if the NBA sticks with 30 teams for the next 5-10 years you will see more and more quality players on each team. It's simple statistics.

This is complete and utter garbage, Im sorry but you're just not a rational thinker. You sound like an ESPN talking point with all this crap about fundamentals, basically regurgitating whatever trash you've picked up. Everything you've just vomited out is nothing more than opinion, where are the facts to back it up?[


Statistics work nice if they have are taken from Tested & Ideal Pools if not everything goes biased...Just because overall there are More People Playing Basketball Does Not = Better Basketball Players it just = More People Playing Basketball. What makes you think that if more play Basketball they will GET BETTER? That may work for countries that never had basketball as top sport. You Getter Better by Playing with BETTER PLAYERS THAN YOU not by PLAYING MORE GAMES (MORE TEAMS etc)

[inclinerator]

Bigger stronger players? :no: :banghead: :hammerhead: :rolleyes:

Name one 6`4/6`5er in the NBA today that is as strong as Charles Barkley was? Yes the dude that picked up Shaq like a waste basket from the ground at age 36.?

I see none today :rolleyes:

Overall there is only one 7 footer that is as strong or stronger than Shaq and that is Wilt, a Player from the 60s escentially...I see none today other than Shaq

Name one PG stronger than Magic? I see none today

Name one one SG stronger than Jordan? I see none today

Actually in the 80s and 90s there was a tendancy to choose PFs that where stocky breed not thin breed like what i see today. Guys like Charles Oakley, Kevin Willis, Anthony Mason, Rick Mahorn, Otis Thorpe etc would crush 95% of the Powerforwards of today Strength wise because the NBA requiered physical play back then, while todays NBA has a policy of forced will in creating skilled players, because there arent many. Evidence: helping perimeter players score easier with the no handcheckin rules, easy lanes on to the basket, 5 second rule tured around the basket is anti Stocky Player etc..

shut up bietch

[Scott Pippen]

Guys like Charles Oakley, Kevin Willis, Anthony Mason, Rick Mahorn, Otis Thorpe etc would crush 95% of the Powerforwards of today Strength wise because the NBA requiered physical play back then, while todays NBA has a policy of forced will in creating skilled players, because there arent many.

agree with this point. 'N.B.A' used to stand for "No Babies Allowed". Now it stand for "No Bullies Allowed." :ohwell:

[Scott Pippen]

If anything it has more to do with IQ today. The game is simply not free flowing like it used to be, and thats why I think it is less enjoyable to most these days, as rankings would suggest.

The game has improved, as all sports and progressive activities do over time.

agree. Like I say it is the way the game is played today. Over time it becomes less agressive and more entertainment. In the 1960s if I am not mistaken there was almost no limit to what the post defender could do to the offensive post up man. Then they changed the rule in 1992 or 93, no more could the post defender use his knee, elbows, or two hands in the back to play defense. They reduced contact allowed. Then again in 2004, they completely eliminate physical contact. :banghead: Talent is up now, but overall game and aggressiveness along with 50% of the game on the defensive end is gone. Of course the superstar today would be great then, but the role players and overall teams in the 1980s is > today:applause:

[Sir Charles]

IF you think any player in any other era is bigger than LBJ your nuts. I would say Kobe is just as strong as Jordan Maybe i didnt make my point because of conditioning changes players are strong that doesnt mean they had the same strength Wes Unseld was strong as a mule but I bet even in his prime he could out lift D Howard in a weight room.


Bryant as strong as Jordan? :roll: :no: Look at the clips...

Which 6`4/6`5er of todays game is Stronger than Barkley? (Barkley was so strong 7 footers where afraid of him) Name me one! :rolleyes:

Which PG is tronger than Magic?...Name me one!

1980s and 1990s PFs.

*By the way lifting weights will get you stronger and increase your weight of muscule but overal will only explode on your natural strength. It will not make you natural strength stronger than it is. There are many players whom don`t have nice looking muscules (seem flabby) or are not as stocky as you think and are stronger than you think: Barkley and Oakley where those (way stronger than their muscule tone or weight), Rodman was one (way stronger than his thin 6`6-6`7 220 lbs frame).

Anthony Mason: 6`8 ft / 265 lbs

http://www.nba.com/media/amason_300_080412.jpg

Charles Oakley: 6`8 ft / 245-260 lbs

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/1999/12/22/001291736.jpg

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/2001/02/27/sayitaintso_knicks/oakley_all.jpg

Kevin Willis: 7`0 / 245 lbs

http://www.nba.com/media/hawks/willis_gallery1_254.jpg

Charles Barkley: 6`4-6`5 ft/ 284-252 lbs (although rarely below 260 lbs, 252 for like 2-3 season at most)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/1985/05/05/001093665.jpg

Otis Thorpe: 6`10 ft/ 248 lbs

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/1993/02/25/001093687.jpg

Larry Nance: 6`10 ft/ 235 lbs

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/nba-history/images/as/nance_295_ADB20.jpg

[Sir Charles]

Ralph Sampson: 7`4 ft / 228 lbs

http://p69.webcindario.com/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/NBA80s/jabbar_sampson_all.jpg

Rick Mahorn: 6`10 ft/ 255 lbs

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/1989/05/21/001088703.jpg

Roy Tarpley: 7`0 ft/ 245 lbs

http://www.nba.com/media/mavericks/25th_tarpley.jpg

Derrik Coleman: 6`10/ 270 lbs

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/coleman_derrick0304.jpg

Kevin McHale: 6`10 ft/ 225 lbs

http://www.bostonsportscollect.com/catalog/e5_1_b_286_1.JPG

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19940130&slug=1892621

"No one can guard Kevin," Bird said, "especially in the playoffs."

His arms were long enough to tie his shoes without bending over - and those arms were perhaps his greatest asset. McHale's wingspan, on his 6-10 body, has been estimated at 8 feet.

Tall Enough?, Big Enough?

Karl Malone: 6`9 ft / 257 lbs (stronger than the weight you see)

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/PHO/AAGC014.jpg

[AItheAnswer3]

Sir Charles, your 1,136 posts prove Barkley>Duncan and 2-point FG is the greatest stat to ever judge a player.

[Sir Charles]

Sir Charles, your 1,136 posts prove Barkley>Duncan and 2-point FG is the greatest stat to ever judge a player.

:rolleyes:

[mongePR(kb24)]

AI is a better scorer than this guy and i dont see him avg 40 a game.

[Sir Charles]

AI is a better scorer than this guy and i dont see him avg 40 a game.

Better scorer at 42-40% FG and 22-26 FGA PG? :roll: :rolleyes:

[Godfather]

Better scorer at 42-40% FG and 22-26 FGA PG? :roll: :rolleyes:

Sir Charles...How do you think half these players would have dealt with the zone?

[bstickq1]

Barkley was 6'8".

[Sir Charles]

Sir Charles...How do you think half these players would have dealt with the zone?

Zone Defense is a Lie and it`s piece of cake for players whom have extreame Basketball IQ, court vision, passing game and fundamentals...whom can break that with ease. Just look at the 92 Dream Team and 96 Team for that

[Godfather]

Zone Defense is a Lie and it`s piece of cake for players whom have extreame Basketball IQ, court vision, passing game and fundamentals...whom can break that with ease. Just look at the 92 Dream Team and 96 Team for that

How can you use those teams as comparison, especially due to the level of competition they played. I am talking about a standard NBA team today with its star player replaced with a star from the past (lets take DWade and replace him with Gervin), how do you think the Miami Heat would then fair?

[ihatetmac2524]

I think most star players would be fine in the other NBA eras. Just because players could play defense doesn't mean today's nba players would struggle. And Gergin, 30 or 40 every night.. my ass.

[inclinerator]

POSTING PICS DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING that doesnt mean they are stronger than lebron okay. Stop your kissing ass to oldies.

[plowking]

Can you name any runningback intodays game better than JIm Brown
Can you name 5 better baseplayers in todays game better than Hank Aaron,Mickey Mantle,Willie mays, Babe Ruth, Joe Dmagigo can you name a better boxer today than Ali,Joe Louis can you name a better hockey player today than Wayne G. So I guess basketball isnt the only sport that the old legends are better than todays players.

Like I said, the greats are the greats.

Though through development of the game, there are plenty of players that are more skilled, better, etc.
It's a natural process. Technique, technology, method of training, everything improves, thus you will have better players.

[plowking]

Zone Defense is a Lie and it`s piece of cake for players whom have extreame Basketball IQ, court vision, passing game and fundamentals...whom can break that with ease. Just look at the 92 Dream Team and 96 Team for that

You're right, the whole league is just stupid today. There is not one good, smart player in the league today who is able to dominate the league.

Nice comparison, using the Dream Teams. Competition for them in the Olympics sure was as tough as the NBA today.

You are dense.

There is such thing as natural progression. Through watching previous generations the next generation is naturally going to be better then the next. That doesn't mean that each player is a great, though they are generally more well equiped then the previous generation.

[stephanieg]

I am talking about a standard NBA team today with its star player replaced with a star from the past (lets take DWade and replace him with Gervin), how do you think the Miami Heat would then fair?

It's impossible to realistically tell if the 06 Heat would win the title with any other player in NBA history -- several of the games were extraordinarily close. However, there's no reason to say Gervin couldn't do it. Gervin's incredible production carried over to the playoffs. He was extraordinarily consistent. He averaged 50.8% in the playoffs. The only thing that Wade is clearly better at is going to the stripe -- he's had seasons of 9-10 FTAs a game, compared to Gervin's 6-7.

I also enjoy how you use Wade for this purpose, a player who makes a living off penetration and doesn't have much trouble with zones (one of the most efficient guards in the league and who will probably either go down as an all time great or the Bill Walton of SGs).

[Sir Charles]

POSTING PICS DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING that doesnt mean they are stronger than lebron okay. Stop your kissing ass to oldies.

They are stronger that is why they can play in the PF spot. They can rebound in the Post not away from the Post. Lebron is strong don`t get me wrong but he would not like to mess with guys like Charles Oakley, Barkley, Mason, Kevin Willis, Otis Thorpe, Derrick Coleman, Sampson etc

If you messed with Barkley you get this :confusedshrug:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=SpoAqEbxS18

And George Gervin would average 30-35 PPG for more than 6 season in todays game at over 50% FG. He is by far a Better Inside Mid Range Shooter than Bryant, Has More Range, 6`7ft tALL!, Quick, Athletic Enough and especially: MORE TALENTED-SKILLED-RICH IN FUNDAMENTALS than 99% of the SGs of today.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=dWqyvOGQ7MI&feature=related

[Manute for Ever!]

They are stronger that is why they can play in the PF Post. They can rebound in the Post not away from the Post. Lebron is strong don`t get me wrong but he would not like to mess with guys like Charles Oakley, Barkley, Mason, Kevin Willis, Otis Thorpe, Derrick Coleman, Sampson etc

If you messed with Barkley you get this :confusedshrug:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=SpoAqEbxS18

Otis Thorpe? You're kidding me, I'm probably stronger than him

[G-train]

Zo, Ben Wallets, Amare, Shaq, Brand, Howard, Okafor, Oden, Maxiell could all mix it with those dudes Sir Charles. There is probably more.

[Sir Charles]

You're right, the whole league is just stupid today. There is not one good, smart player in the league today who is able to dominate the league.

Nice comparison, using the Dream Teams. Competition for them in the Olympics sure was as tough as the NBA today.

You are dense.

There is such thing as natural progression. Through watching previous generations the next generation is naturally going to be better then the next. That doesn't mean that each player is a great, though they are generally more well equiped then the previous generation.

False things can evolve to worst too especially if you are trying to create more Jordan`s like Mr Stern has done in making it easier to play and score for perimter players and also avoid the contact of the natural Frontline = In Today`s Game Puss*******ies Allowed to Play. Jordan, Malone, Stockton where healthy in the NBA at ages 35-40 and they kept schooling 85% of the Players in the league at a blink of an eye.

Barkley against Shaq-Bryant-Horry-Rice etc at age 36 nearly...with chronic back and knee injueries averaged 23.5 PPG; 13.8 RPG, 3.8 APG and shooting close to 53% from the FG. Major Schooling done by a player that could hardly move or leap agains the following year NBA Champions:confusedshrug:

Even Jordan said the NBA`s game had gone down from his time. Magic came back in 95-96 after not playing Pro for 4-5 years and had way better numbers than half of the whole league at only 29 MPG as a Point-Powerforward (not even as a PG) . He even had a triple double in his 1st game after being out for 4-5 seasons:

Comeback 95-96

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=_WVS2zpJBDI&feature=related

36 year old MAGIC Schooling Zo`s Miami Heat 95-96 (27 Points, 9 Rebounds, 9 Assits)

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=zvLezfSvv4E

:bowdown:

There is also a clip somewhere in youtube can`t find it where he talks to a reporter on how the game`s level had gone down since his retirement (expacting the obvious down fall in talent-fundamentals-skills-passing-bball Iq etc that was to come) :oldlol:

[plowking]

False things can evolve to worst too especially if you are trying to create more Jordan`s like Mr Stern has done in making it easier to play and score for perimter players and also avoid the contact of the natural Frontline = Puss*******ies Allowed. Jordan, Malone, Stockton where healthy in the NBA at ages 35-40 and they kept schooling 85% of the Players in the league at a blink of an eye.

Barkley against Shaq-Bryant-Horry-Rice etc at age 36 nearly...with chronic back and knee injueries averaged 23.5 PPG; 13.8 RPG, 3.8 APG and shooting close to 53% from the FG. Major Schooling done by a player that could hardly move or leap agains the following year NBA Champions:confusedshrug:

Even Jordan said the NBA`s game had gone down from his time. Magic came back in 95-96 after not playing Pro and had way better numbers than half of the whole league at only 29 MPG as a Point Powerforward (not even as a PG) . He even had a triple double in his 1st game after being out for 4-5 seasons:

Comeback 95-96

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=_WVS2zpJBDI&feature=related

Schooling the Miami Heat 95-96

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=zvLezfSvv4E

:bowdown:

There is also a clip where he talks to a reporter on how the game`s level had gone down since his retirement (expacting the obvious down fall in talent-fundamentals-skills-passing-bball Iq etc that was to come) :oldlol:

Wait former players are saying their era was better? Well its settled. There we have it people, we needed one solid bit of information and we have it right here.

[Sir Charles]

Zo, Ben Wallets, Amare, Shaq, Brand, Howard, Okafor, Oden, Maxiell could all mix it with those dudes Sir Charles. There is probably more.

I don`t see them messing with Shaq :confusedshrug:

[Kiddlovesnets]

[QUOTE=

[Sir Charles]

Wait former players are saying their era was better? Well its settled. There we have it people, we needed one solid bit of information and we have it right here.

Wrong...Magic just said the truth he wasn`t makin fun of anybody he just said the level of game competition, IQ-Ball, Passing Game, Skills had gone down since the 80s.

If i was Zo and Tim Hardaway (both PRIME!) I would have commited suicide if a 36 year old man that has not played 4-5 years in the NBA just returns playing another position (from PG to PF) and does this to my team at home

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199603270MIA.html

:eek: :pimp: :oldlol: :bowdown: :rockon: :cheers:

[BIZARRO]

Otis Thorpe? You're kidding me, I'm probably stronger than him

Let's play word association with Joe Dumars (Psst, look under strongest):

http://www.nba.com/pistons/features/word_association_team.html


Let's play word association regarding Manute For Ever: "Doesn't Do His Homework. :no:


http://clutchfans.net/images/profiles/Otis_Thorpe.jpg

[plowking]

80's is the strongest era in NBA history so why he'd average even less points?

Because the game was played at a faster tempo. A lot faster.

[G-train]

I don`t see them messing with Shaq :confusedshrug:

I dont care if want to argue about the 80's being a more talented era, but you have ZERO argument that the players were stronger in the 80's than they are today.

And yes I have seen Alonzo Mourning 'messing' with Shaq.

[plowking]

Wrong...Magic just said the truth he wasn`t makin fun of anybody he just said the level of game competition, IQ-Ball, Passing Game, Skills had gone down since the 80s.

If i was Zo and Tim Hardaway (both PRIME!) I would have commited suicide if a 36 year old man that has not played 4-5 years in the NBA just returns playing another position (from PG to PF) and does this to my team at home

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199603270MIA.html

:eek: :pimp: :oldlol: :bowdown: :rockon: :cheers:

Basketball IQ is the most overrated thing I've heard. If this guy had better BBall IQ he'd be awesome... :rolleyes:

Furthermore how have skills decreased? Passing is still a strong facet of the game with guards like Nash, Paul, Deron, Calderon. The number they average with the slowed down pace of the game is on par with that of previous generations.

The only reason things like FG have gone down for wing players is due to zone defense. They are forced to take outside jumpers. Of course there are going to be less made shots.

[Sir Charles]

I dont care if want to argue about the 80's being a more talented era, but you have ZERO argument that the players were stronger in the 80's than they are today.

And yes I have seen Alonzo Mourning 'messing' with Shaq.

A center wow :rolleyes: did he pick him up and throw him to the ground?:confusedshrug:

The NBA`s level decrease after 1992 its a fact, then again in 1996 and beyond that its just hilarious:confusedshrug:

By the way the league had more pace in the 80s because players had way more Full Court B_Ball IQ (knew how to move in the cout) and actually had a Passing Game.

[inclinerator]

so what if barkeley picked up shaq he still end up bleeding and if that fight went on barkeley would have lost. Its easy to make someone fall if you go for their legs. Watch football.\
what barkeley did wasnt bravery it was stupidity. Shaq could easily have swung at him and he would have been unconcious


glen davis tackled shaq so i guess he is stronger than shaq right?

[abuC]

The only reason things like FG have gone down for wing players is due to zone defense. They are forced to take outside jumpers. Of course there are going to be less made shots.


I'd actually say the FG% has dropped because of the amount of 3's taken, however the eFG between eras, and FT percentage has stayed relatively the same.

Simple things like that Sir Charles cant comprehend though, it's apparent this guy is irrational and completely biased.

[abuC]

A center wow :rolleyes: did he pick him up and throw him to the ground?:confusedshrug:

The NBA`s level decrease after 1992 its a fact, then again in 1996 and beyond that its just hilarious:confusedshrug:

By the way the league had more pace in the 80s because players had way more Full Court B_Ball IQ (knew how to move in the cout) and actually had a Passing Game.


LMAO, full court B-ball IQ? I've never heard anything as stupid as that on this site.

[bstickq1]

The arguments Sir Charles is presenting are ridiculous. So why bother arguing with him? Everyone loses.

[plowking]

I'd actually say the FG% has dropped because of the amount of 3's taken, however the eFG between eras, and FT percentage has stayed relatively the same.

Simple things like that Sir Charles cant comprehend though, it's apparent this guy is irrational and completely biased.

Exactly, he makes stupid claims like former greats doing well in the later eras.

I can also say, look at Jordans stats, and look at his FG% at the end of his career at the Bulls. It began to drop.

He is just thick and too dense to realize that naturally every sport has progressed rather than regressed.

[D.J.]

Gervin's comment might have been arrogant, but he's probably right. He easily put up 25-27 points per game and had two 30+ point per game seasons. In an era where there are inferior defenders and soft fouls, he could certainly put up 30 a game. Half his points would probably come at the free throw line anyway.

[plowking]

Gervin's comment might have been arrogant, but he's probably right. He easily put up 25-27 points per game and had two 30+ point per game seasons. In an era where there are inferior defenders and soft fouls, he could certainly put up 30 a game. Half his points would probably come at the free throw line anyway.

I just find it funny how posters who posted previously, said Kobe's 81 point performance isn't that impressive because Gervin could have done the same thing if he played today. No, no he couldn't have...

They bring up points like he scored 55 points in a half and so on and use crappy mathamatical calculations to figure out that he would have scored more then 81. How do you know how he would have shot for the rest of the game? How do you know if he wasn't tired.

Kobe scored 62 in less then 3 quarters of basketball. I can get his most amount of points scored in a quarter and say he could have produced it again in this game and also if he had no rest he would have scored 100.

[Loki]

I can also say, look at Jordans stats, and look at his FG% at the end of his career at the Bulls. It began to drop.

1) He was 35 years old.

2) He shot 48% after the first 20 games of the 1998 season (during which he shot ~42% FG/68% FT) after he adjusted to a torn ligament/cracked knuckle on the index finger on his shooting hand.

Just FYI.

[Sir Charles]

Exactly, he makes stupid claims like former greats doing well in the later eras.

I can also say, look at Jordans stats, and look at his FG% at the end of his career at the Bulls. It began to drop.

He is just thick and too dense to realize that naturally every sport has progressed rather than regressed.

It dropped because he was obviously aging dumy. Jordan schooled 85% of the players in the NBA till age 38 and playing with the Wizard`s not his Bulls. Do you realize this? Dream of Kobe doing that even with his Great Supporting Casts of today at age 38 :rolleyes:

I have just given you the Schooling of Magic Johnson on ZO and Tim Hardaway among others getting 27 Points, 9 Rebounds, 9 Assists and to end it; he gets Zo fouled out at home too :pimp: . Zo was 25 years old (totally Prime) and Magic was 36 years old , NOT PLAYING FOR 4-5 YEARS and PLAYING NOT PG BUT PF :oldlol:

[D.J.]

I just find it funny how posters who posted previously, said Kobe's 81 point performance isn't that impressive because Gervin could have done the same thing if he played today. No, no he couldn't have...

Even while in his prime, Gervin played well under 40 minutes per game. If Gervin were to average 40 minutes per game, perhaps he could have. Even then, he probably still would have fallen short.


They bring up points like he scored 55 points in a half and so on and use crappy mathamatical calculations to figure out that he would have scored more then 81. How do you know how he would have shot for the rest of the game? How do you know if he wasn't tired.

Going by Gervin's playing time, I really cannot see how he would have surpassed the 81 point mark. He had the field goal percentage to do it. He shot well over 50% from the field, but there just was not enough time.


Kobe scored 62 in less then 3 quarters of basketball. I can get his most amount of points scored in a quarter and say he could have produced it again in this game and also if he had no rest he would have scored 100.

Without rest, he could have reached it had he continued his hot shooting. There is a lot of what ifs. Considering Gervin average over 30 points per game, even in the early 80s, there is no doubt he would at the very least, match that today. He was a 54% shooter in his prime.

[Sir Charles]

so what if barkeley picked up shaq he still end up bleeding and if that fight went on barkeley would have lost. Its easy to make someone fall if you go for their legs. Watch football.\
what barkeley did wasnt bravery it was stupidity. Shaq could easily have swung at him and he would have been unconcious


glen davis tackled shaq so i guess he is stronger than shaq right?

Oh really?:eek: well he missed :hammerhead: Charles moved he aint quick and guessed what happened next? Charles picked that 350 lbs **** up from the ground in an instant (not 1 second or 2,..0.5 seconds) and landed on him and was about to punch him but his teamates went on top to move him. Then you the camara shows Charles pissed and Mr Shaky all Upset and Afraid. There is proof on that. To bad youtube removed the fight when it was filmed from behined :rolleyes:

[inclinerator]

no he was bleeding had it been a longer fight charles might have been beheaded. not really but he probably would have lost.

[plowking]

1) He was 35 years old.

2) He shot 48% after the first 20 games of the 1998 season (during which he shot ~42% FG/68% FT) after he adjusted to a torn ligament/cracked knuckle on the index finger on his shooting hand.

Just FYI.

I know, all I'm saying is his point aren't valid at all much like the one I brought up about Jordan. It proves nothing about the eras.

Wing players have decreased in FG% due to zone defense.

Though my point is, the skills of players will continue to get better over time. He is neglecting this. Go look at the tapes of the 80's and prior to that. Are any of the players movements as smooth as now? No. The game has been studied and players have improved naturally as every sport does.

[G-train]

Zone defense is getting too much credit in this thread.

[D.J.]

Zone defense is getting too much credit in this thread.


You can certainly use zone defense as a reason, but it used way too much. There are guys today that are excellent man to man defenders. Unfortunately, this era is mainly zone and it benefits weaker defenders.

[plowking]

Zone defense is getting too much credit in this thread.

You think all wing players just naturally became worse from the field? There were rules implemented and of course it affected the FG of a lot of wing players.

Arguments such as Wade being one of the few close to 50% shooting is an example. He is one of the few players that settles for jumpshots and thus his FG is a little higher.

[stephanieg]

You think all wing players just naturally became worse from the field? There were rules implemented and of course it affected the FG of a lot of wing players.

But it didn't? Unless you have some sort of cite that the FG% of wings went down permanently after the rule changes. I'd be really interested in something like that.

Historically, as far as I can see, it's pretty unusual for a prolific scoring wing player to average 50%+ no matter the era. And those that do tend to be in the Hall.

The Big O did it a couple times
West did it once, had lots of 49s
Gervin
Thompson
Dr. J
Bird
Mullin
Dantley
King (before he blew out his knee...)
English
Drexler
Jordan

I can't really think of any other perimeter player who scored in buckets and had 50% although I'm sure I'm missing some. I can think of a lot who had similar FG% to players today -- Greer, Dumars, Moncrief, Dennis Johnson, Havlicek, Jo Jo White, Rick Barry, Mitch Richmond, Starks, Hill, Hardaway, etc. although some of those aren't really prolific (some are in the 20-22 ppg range).

Carmelo is extremely close. A healthy Wade showed us what he can do. Chris Paul was extremely close in only his third year although I guess you wouldn't call 21 ppg prolific (ditto Williams, who did hit 50% but only 18 ppg). Dirk did it his MVP year and had some 48% seasons, which is funny I guess because he's not really a wing (he just plays like one, haha). Kobe has shown flashes of being able to do it -- IIRC he averaged well over 50% in the playoffs last year until he hit the Finals. And yes, I do think a lot of it has to do with players having questionable shot selections a lot of the time.

[plowking]

Well its hard to take a sample of players after and before the handcheck rule as it was reinforced sometime in 06, though originally introduced in 2000 I think.

Though take a look at Richmonds career. As his career went along his FG% got worse and worse with time. He sure as hell didn't become a worse player in his prime. It's just the way wing players are in some way forced to play now. It is a lot more jumpshooting then driving due to the defense.

[Loki]

You think all wing players just naturally became worse from the field? There were rules implemented and of course it affected the FG of a lot of wing players.

Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed (which was ~2004), so that argument is moot. You're acting like guys like Kobe/TMac/VC/AI were shooting blistering percentages from '99-'04. They weren't.

[plowking]

Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed (which was ~2004), so that argument is moot. You're acting like guys like Kobe/TMac/VC/AI were shooting blistering percentages from '99-'04. They weren't.

Take a look and you'll realize the majority of them had their career highs in FG% during those years. Of course none of them are going to shot 50% as they aren't MJ. Though I'm saying this did have an impact on their FG numbers.

[stephanieg]

Though take a look at Richmonds career. As his career went along his FG% got worse and worse with time. He sure as hell didn't become a worse player in his prime.

I don't understand. His second and third years he had a nice FG%. Then it erodes until he shoots an OK 44-45%. Then at age 33 in '98 it falls off a cliff. But all this was happening in the early to mid 90s.


Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed

I know league wide team offenses died in the late 90s (see here (http://ww.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=418)) so it should follow that wings (along with all players) were less efficient, but I'd still love to see (if you have one) a cite with details about wing players' FG% dropping.

Also, according to that link league wide team offensive efficiency improved after the rule changes in 2004.

[Loki]

Take a look and you'll realize the majority of them had their career highs in FG% during those years. Of course none of them are going to shot 50% as they aren't MJ. Though I'm saying this did have an impact on their FG numbers.

AI has had his career high FG% since zone. Guys like Wade/Leron/Melo have averaged 48-49.5% FG since zone, whereas in the '99-'04 time frame no perimeter player did so. Kobe has shot comparably (46.1% the last two years) on higher ppg volume than he was scoring in the early 00's, and this despite being the primary option. Pierce had both his highest FG% and highest ppg average in 2006, post-zone. Carter shot comparably in 2007 on similar volume despite being a much older and less explosive player than he was in '00 or '01.

In short: the FG% of these wing players is not a result of the zone.

[plowking]

AI has had his career high FG% since zone. Guys like Wade/Leron/Melo have averaged 48-49.5% FG since zone, whereas in the '99-'04 time frame no perimeter player did so. Kobe has shot comparably (46.1% the last two years) on higher volume than he was scoring in the early 00's, and this despite being the primary option. Pierce had both his highest FG% and higher ppg average in 2006, post-zone. Carter shot comparably in 2007 on similar volume despite being a much older and less explosive player than he was in '00 or '01.

In short: the FG% of these wing players is not a result of the zone.

Of course they are going to, they only played one season without zone. You expect them to have a career high in FG% their rookie season? :roll:

Iverson was on a team where he needed to take a lot of shots and at time ill advised. When put on a team with another scorer of course he is going to cut back and take better shots.


Don't kid yourself Loki. The point of a zone is to force jumpshots. If anything you are supporting that players are now better jumpshooters then before if they are able to maintain a similar FG% with more jumpshots.

[Loki]

Of course they are going to, they only played one season without zone. You expect them to have a career high in FG% their rookie season? :roll:

I threw them in as more evidence that it's possible to shoot a good % against zone.


Iverson was on a team where he needed to take a lot of shots and at time ill advised. When put on a team with another scorer of course he is going to cut back and take better shots.

This was partially my mistake, but my point stands. I meant that AI shot his best FG% of the previous 8 seasons in 2006 while on the Sixers (not Nuggets), under zone rules.

[stephanieg]

The point of a zone is to force jumpshots. If anything you are supporting that players are now better jumpshooters then before if they are able to maintain a similar FG% with more jumpshots.

I would love a cite that wing players take more jump shots (not three pointers, that has been increasing ever since it was introduced -- see my prior link) than they used to before the NBA allowed shading and doubling off the ball. I'm honestly curious and would rep you big time if you have something like that. Otherwise you seem to be assuming that players take more jump shots. In my personal subjective opinion I don't think this is true because there are endless star (and lower tier) players who make a living off penetration. I don't think Steve Nash is exactly an athletic phenom. Pierce is strong but he seems to move in slow motion. And so on. But I could be wrong.

EDIT: Also, Gervin was considered an incredible jump shooter AFAIK, so how this circles back to the actual topic is questionable.

[Sir Charles]

no he was bleeding had it been a longer fight charles might have been beheaded. not really but he probably would have lost.

He was bleeding because the punch razored him a bit but thats not enough to win a fight dummy :rolleyes: Barkley moved and the slow Shaq missed then Charles picked that 350 lbs **** up from the ground in less than second and even his teamates could not move him then he went on top of Shaq his teamates when over to control Charles from punching Shaq. Charles was way stronger than most people think when he had his feet to the ground it was impossible to move him. Shaq was lucky Charles did not smack him while on top.

The camera shows Shaq`s face and the big guy was scared like a baby:oldlol: :pimp: :banghead: :pimp:

[bdreason]

A Prime Gervin could average around 30PPG and challenge for the scoring title depending on what team he was on.

[Loki]

He was bleeding because the punch razored him a bit but thats not enough to win a fight dummy :rolleyes: Barkley moved and the slow Shaq missed then Charles picked that 350 lbs **** up from the ground in less than second and even his teamates could not move him then he went on top of Shaq his teamates when over to control Charles from punching Shaq. Charles was way stronger than most people think when he had his feet to the ground it was impossible to move him. Shaq was lucky Charles did not smack him while on top.

The camera shows Shaq`s face and the big guy was scared like a baby:oldlol: :pimp: :banghead: :pimp:

I agree. Personally, I feel that Barkley's "face forward, charge, and punch" and "sidestep and right cross" is far superior to Shaq's "wind up slowly and throw haymaker" and "grab and use my belly."

Personally.

[plowking]

I would love a cite that wing players take more jump shots (not three pointers, that has been increasing ever since it was introduced -- see my prior link) than they used to before the NBA allowed shading and doubling off the ball. I'm honestly curious and would rep you big time if you have something like that. Otherwise you seem to be assuming that players take more jump shots. In my personal subjective opinion I don't think this is true because there are endless star (and lower tier) players who make a living off penetration. I don't think Steve Nash is exactly an athletic phenom. Pierce is strong but he seems to move in slow motion. And so on. But I could be wrong.

EDIT: Also, Gervin was considered an incredible jump shooter AFAIK, so how this circles back to the actual topic is questionable.

I found some stats, though this included 3 pointers, though I don't see why it shouldn't as it is still a jumpshot. 02-03 was as far back as I could find and 07-08 the most recent. Took your star guards and compared them from the most recent I could find to to furthest back (thus 02-03 and 07-08). In some cases I choose the season prior, like Arenas as he didn't play even half the season. I also chose players season depending on whether their role on the team stayed the same. So for Carter and Iverson I compared them on their former teams where they were the single primary scorer.

Organised by:
Season - percentage of jumpshots taken

Arenas:
02-03 - 68%
06-07 - 75% (Didn't play much this last season so this one was chosen)

Wade
03-04 - 50%
07-08 - 65%

Carmelo
03-04 - 54%
07-08 - 62%

Iverson
02-03 - 72%
06-07 - 74% (Chose this season as he was still with the Sixers this season and had the same role as the season in 02-03)

Bryant
02-03 - 78
07-08 - 74

Nash
02-03 - 72%
07-08 - 85%

McGrady
02-03 - 74%
07-08 - 79%

Hamilton
02-03 - 74%
07-08 - 80%

Carter while on the Raptors
02-03 - 79%
04-05 - 77% (This season choosen as he had a different role on the Nets. Shot 66% this last season)

Billups
Stayed the same

Pierce
Stayed the same

Stojackovic on the Kings
02-03 - 76%
04-05 - 79%

Artest
02-03 - 61%
07-08 - 64%

R. Jefferson
02-03 - 55%
07-08 - 61%

James
03-04 - 67%
07-08 - 60%


Going by those numbers, the trend is that more jumpshots are being taken by players. Bar Kobe and Carter, who already took a lot of jumpshots to begin with, the amount of jumpshots has increased. Also James who now is bigger and just barges his way through the defense.

All numbers and stats can be found here.
http://www.82games.com/FGSORT7.HTM
http://www.82games.com/teams06.htm

[plowking]

Wing player FG% dropped way before zone started being employed (which was ~2004), so that argument is moot. You're acting like guys like Kobe/TMac/VC/AI were shooting blistering percentages from '99-'04. They weren't.

Take a look at the figures I posted above. Most have an increase in jumpshots.

[madmax]

I always fing it funny when old dudes are acting like everything was better in their time...get real people - everything is evolving and improving, that includes basketball as well. Players are taller, bigger, stronger, defences are much tougher to break due to employment of various zone combinations, especially back there in Europe,where coaches are applying different zones for different opponents...NBA as well has gotten better, there are less iso's, 1-on-1 plays, team defence is winning championships ( Spurs, Pistons, recently Celtics). George was a phenomenal player BACK THEN, not so sure he would be as such nowadays with a same skillset, you just never know

[Sir Charles]

I always fing it funny when old dudes are acting like everything was better in their time...get real people - everything is evolving and improving, that includes basketball as well. Players are taller, bigger, stronger, defences are much tougher to break due to employment of various zone combinations, especially back there in Europe,where coaches are applying different zones for different opponents...NBA as well has gotten better, there are less iso's, 1-on-1 plays, team defence is winning championships ( Spurs, Pistons, recently Celtics). George was a phenomenal player BACK THEN, not so sure he would be as such nowadays with a same skillset, you just never know

Players Bigger? Stronger? False :no: :rolleyes:

Havent seen another 6`5-6`5 bigger or stronger than Barkley yet
Haven`t seen another stronger or taller PG than Magic Johnson yet
Haven`t seen another more agil, athletic or stronger SG than Jorda yet
Haven`t seen another 7`4 PF that can dribble and move like a SG like Ralph Sampson yet.
Haven`t seen another more agil Center than Hakeem yet
Haven`t seen another a 6`10er that has an 8 foot winspan yet like McHale

Players of today are at average more athletic than the past (still have not seen any free throw line dunkers like Jordan, Dr. J, Drexler, Pippen etc) but skill wise, fundamentals wise, b-ball IQ, passing game wise etc they have decreased big time :confusedshrug:

Tougher Defense? With free lines for perimter players? With no handchecking allowed? With touch fouls called? With 5 second rule back to the basket? with no physical play alloed? Funny!

[plowking]

Players Bigger? Stronger? False :no: :rolleyes:

Havent seen another 6`5-6`5 bigger or stronger than Barkley yet
Haven`t seen another stronger or taller PG than Magic Johnson yet
Haven`t seen another more agil, athletic or stronger SG than Jorda yet
Haven`t seen another 7`4 PF that can dribble and move like a SG like Ralph Sampson yet.
Haven`t seen another more agil Center than Hakeem yet
Haven`t seen another a 6`10er that has an 8 foot winspan yet like McHale

Players of today are at average more athletic than the past (still have not seen any free throw line dunkers like Jordan, Dr. J, Drexler, Pippen etc) but skill wise, fundamentals wise, b-ball IQ, passing game wise etc they have decreased big time :confusedshrug:

See that is absolute trash.

I can say we haven't seen a player like Howard ever.
We have never seen a player like James ever.
Ron Artest would give Barkley a run for his money, as well as Big Ben.
A player the size of Yao with the same skillset.

[Sir Charles]

See that is absolute trash.

I can say we haven't seen a player like Howard ever.
We have never seen a player like James ever.
Ron Artest would give Barkley a run for his money, as well as Big Ben.
A player the size of Yao with the same skillset.

Wrong :confusedshrug:

You still havent named me a 7`4 C-PF like Sampson whom could dribble the ball like a G was as Quick as SG and could leap like a SG

You sill havent named me a 6`9 Point Guard that could Post Up and also play PF-SF like Magic.

You still havent named me SG more athletic, quick and strong as Michael.

You still havent named a 6`4/6`5 dude like Charles whom could rebound amonst Centers and Intimidte the hell out of them to the point they where afraid to even speak to him.

Skilled PFs of today i just see two: Duncan and Garnett other than that skill wise in the 80s and early 90s you had:

James Worthy: 6`9 fastest quickstep onto the rim ever
McHale: 6`10er with an 8 ft winspan that had more Post Moves than any Pf Ever.
Barkley: Greatest Potentent-Speed Of Dribble Scoring PF Ever, Master of the Coast to Coast, Most Unstoppable and Varied Scorer from the 2-Point Line, Greates Low Post Spin Ever for the PF position etc
Malone: 6`9 Built like a Wrester that could Run the Floor Back and Forth like none PF today and his Arms where made of steel.
Ralph Sampson: 7`4 PF that was as quick as the fastest SFs, could handle the ball like a G and could leap like any SF.
Derrick Coleman: With Barkley the Best Ballhandling PF Ever and Best Passing PF Ever, Left hand Mid Range and this man had More Set of Moves and Skills than Duncan had Garnett together
Roy Tarpley. Think of Garnett and James Worthy Mixed Toghether. Defense like Garnett, Skill and Speed like a James Worthy and was lefty too. Scary? Yes.

Any C as quick, agil and skilled as Hakeem today?

Back in the 80s-90s it was Jabbar, Moses Malone, Hakeem, Ewing, Brad Daugherty (Best Ball Handling Center Ever) and Robinson then Shaq

Now today what do we have? Aged Shaq and Yao? thats it!...

Handchecking Dissllowed (Creating False Jordans), 5 Seconds Rule Off the Basket (Anti Stocky Players playing Defense), Puss***** Fouls, Pathetic Passing Game (thank god they are brining in Non American players like Ginobili, Gasol and Nash whom can pass not just fake pass), No Rough Play Inside the Paint etc..

The Leagues Actual Level is Weak: Skill-Fundamentally and Talent Wise.

Period :rolleyes:

[plowking]

Players Bigger? Stronger? False :no: :rolleyes:

Havent seen another 6`5-6`5 bigger or stronger than Barkley yet
Haven`t seen another stronger or taller PG than Magic Johnson yet
Haven`t seen another more agil, athletic or stronger SG than Jorda yet
Haven`t seen another 7`4 PF that can dribble and move like a SG like Ralph Sampson yet.
Haven`t seen another more agil Center than Hakeem yet
Haven`t seen another a 6`10er that has an 8 foot winspan yet like McHale

Players of today are at average more athletic than the past (still have not seen any free throw line dunkers like Jordan, Dr. J, Drexler, Pippen etc) but skill wise, fundamentals wise, b-ball IQ, passing game wise etc they have decreased big time :confusedshrug:

Tougher Defense? With free lines for perimter players? With no handchecking allowed? With touch fouls called? With 5 second rule back to the basket? with no physical play alloed? Funny!

Hows CP3 for fundamentals and passing. Averages less turnovers then almost all point guards before him. Has probably one of the best assist to turnover ratios.

Are you kidding me, look at Vince, the greatest dunker ever. He could dunk it from the free throw line, he simply chose the safe option in the dunk contest.

There is more double teaming now. Players who drive are often greeted by 3 players that collapse on them. Players are forced to take jumpshots.

Also James White absolutely dominantes every free throw line dunker you mentioned. In his last dunk contest in Turkey, he took off a foot behind the line and windmilled it. I'd say thats a lot better then your free throw line dunkers.

BBall IQ? How are we supposed to measure that. People simply come in here and say all the legends had great bball IQ simply to sound knowledgable.

[plowking]

Wrong :confusedshrug:

You still havent named me a 7`4 C-PF like Sampson whom could dribble the ball like a G was as Quick as SG and could leap like a SG

You sill havent named me a 6`9 Point Guard that could Post Up and also play PF-SF like Magic.

You still havent named me SG more athletic, quick and strong as Michael.

You still havent named a 6`4/6`5 dude like Charles whom could rebound amonst Centers and Intimidte the hell out of them to the point they where afraid to even speak to him.

Skilled PFs of today i just see two: Duncan and Garnett other than that skill wise in the 80s and early 90s you had:

James Worthy: 6`9 fastest quickstep onto the rim ever
McHale: 6`10er with an 8 ft winspan that had more Post Moves than any Pf Ever.
Barkley: Greatest Potentent-Speed Of Dribble Scoring PF Ever, Master of the Coast to Coast, Most Unstoppable and Varied Scorer from the 2-Point Line, Greates Low Post Spin Ever for the PF position etc
Malone: 6`9 Built like a Wrester that could Run the Floor Back and Forth like none PF today and his Arms where made of steel.
Ralph Sampson: 7`4 PF that was as quick as the fastest SFs, could handle the ball like a G and could leap like any SF.
Derrick Coleman: Best Ballhandling PF Ever, Second Best Passing PF Ever, Left hand Mid Range and this man had More Set of Moves and Skills than Duncan had Garnett together
Roy Tarpley. Think of Garnett and James Worthy Mixed Toghether. Defense like Garnett skill and Speed like Worthy and was lefty too. Scary? Yes.

Any C as quick, agil and skilled as Hakeem today?

Back in the 80s-90s it was Jabbar, Moses Malone, Hakeem, Ewing, Brad Daugherty (Best Ball Handling Center Ever) and Robinson then Shaq

Now today what do we have? Aged Shaq and Yao? thats it!...

Handchecking Dissllowed (Creating False Jordans), 5 Seconds Rule Off the Basket (Anti Stocky Players playing Defense), Puss***** Fouls, Pathetic Passing Game (thank god they are brining in Non American players like Ginobili, Gasol and Nash whom can pass not just fake pass), No Rough Play Inside the Paint etc..

The Leagues Actual Level is Weak: Skill-Fundamentally and Talent Wise.

Period :rolleyes:

Now name me some players back then who compared to the ones I mentioned.

Bryant is very similar to Jordan. Wade is just as strong at 230lbs.

Ron Artest may not be as good a rebounder as Ron Artest but I'm sure he intimidates opponents and is just as strong if not stronger. 6'6 and 260lbs.
Ben Wallace is 6'7 and 255lbs.

Lebron is your modern day Magic buddy.

[Sir Charles]

Hows CP3 for fundamentals and passing. Averages less turnovers then almost all point guards before him. Has probably one of the best assist to turnover ratios.

Less Turnovers because there is no Handchecking:rolleyes:

Are you kidding me, look at Vince, the greatest dunker ever. He could dunk it from the free throw line, he simply chose the safe option in the dunk contest.

Ok Ill give you out names of great Dunkers of them..Who Tops Them?

Drexler, Air Jordan, Dominique, Dr J could steap dunk from the free throw line and could get his head over the rim in common dunks. Larry Nace and Tom Chambers 6`10 that could leap like SGs.

There is more double teaming now. Players who drive are often greeted by 3 players that collapse on them. Players are forced to take jumpshots.

More Double Teaming Now? Its the same **** as before in the 80s it was also done to Guard Great Players, the difference is the man you already had could hold you and feel where you went.

Also James White absolutely dominantes every free throw line dunker you mentioned. In his last dunk contest in Turkey, he took off a foot behind the line and windmilled it. I'd say thats a lot better then your free throw line dunkers.

Could that James White appart from Dunking Play, Score, Pass, Steal etc like Jordan, Drexler, Nique, the Doctor? :oldlol:

BBall IQ? How are we supposed to measure that. People simply come in here and say all the legends had great bball IQ simply to sound knowledgable.[/QUOTE]

IQ is at its lowest ever. Magic said it before in 96, Jordan said it when he retired, Barkley said it, Kukoc said it...etc.:confusedshrug:

[plowking]

Hows CP3 for fundamentals and passing. Averages less turnovers then almost all point guards before him. Has probably one of the best assist to turnover ratios.

Less Turnovers because there is no Handchecking:rolleyes:

Are you kidding me, look at Vince, the greatest dunker ever. He could dunk it from the free throw line, he simply chose the safe option in the dunk contest.

Ok Ill give you out names of great Dunkers of them..Who Tops Them?

Drexler, Air Jordan, Dominique, Dr J could steap dunk from the free throw line and could get his head over the rim in common dunks. Larry Nace and Tom Chambers 6`10 that could leap like SGs.

There is more double teaming now. Players who drive are often greeted by 3 players that collapse on them. Players are forced to take jumpshots.

More Double Teaming Now? Its the same **** as before in the 80s it was also done to Guard Great Players, the difference is the man you already had could hold you and feel where you went.

Also James White absolutely dominantes every free throw line dunker you mentioned. In his last dunk contest in Turkey, he took off a foot behind the line and windmilled it. I'd say thats a lot better then your free throw line dunkers.

Could that James White appart from Dunking Play, Score, Pass, Steal etc like Jordan, Drexler, Nique, the Doctor? :oldlol:

BBall IQ? How are we supposed to measure that. People simply come in here and say all the legends had great bball IQ simply to sound knowledgable.

IQ is at its lowest ever. Magic said it before in 96, Jordan said it when he retired, Barkley said it, Kukoc said it...etc.:confusedshrug: [/QUOTE]


Yes, its always handchecking. Well FG% is higher back then due to no zone.

Vince, Josh Smith, Howard, Gerald green could all more then likely get their head at rim level. BTW Vince is a better dunker then all of them. Also Jason Richardson is amazing. Find me any of those guys doing a between the legs off the board.

Howard is 6'11 and is a better dunker then both Chambers and Nance. How about Amare? Still has springs even after surgery.

You asked for guys who could dunk from the free throw line. I gave you one. Far better.


Once again, former players saying that their era is better. Nothing new.

[Sir Charles]

Bryant is very similar to Jordan. Wade is just as strong at 230lbs.

Similar but not evel close Talent, Skill, Athletic, Strength etc wise.

Wade as strong as Jordan? Please...:rolleyes:

Ron Artest may not be as good a rebounder as Ron Artest but I'm sure he intimidates opponents and is just as strong if not stronger. 6'6 and 260lbs.
Ben Wallace is 6'7 and 255lbs.

Can they out rebound guys like Anthony Mason 6`7 ft 265, Charles Oakley, Rick Mahorn, Karl Malone, Dennis Rodman, McHale, 7`0 Kevin Willis, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Jabbar, Mark Eaton, Daugherty, Webber, Kemp? etc like Barkley did :oldlol:

Lebron is your modern day Magic buddy

Except Magic can Pass Way Better, Create WAY WAY Better, Dribble Way Better, Shoot Way Better from Mid range, THINK WAY WAY BETTER , Rebound Way Better (Can Play PF and C Too), Shoot From the Line Better etc..and Lebron is a SF not a PG...

The Games Level of Talent/Skill-Fundamentals- Court IQ-Passing Game-Tounghness-Will To Win- Has Gone Down Compared to Before Its a Fact that One Must Learn To Accept:sleeping

Any 7`4 guy that can Dunk, Leap, As AGil, Quick, Handle the Ball like Sampson today? :no:
Any Center like Hakeem that can play like a SG from the Center Spot? :no:

Its not former players saying there era was better Magic said it in 95-96 with a worried look on his face in an interview (i will seek for it in youtube it should be there)...1980s draft players ruled the league til 1999 and also ruled the 80s. Very few 1990s draft players where on the level of the 80s draft players, very few.

There is a reason why the NBA`s ratings are not the same as the 90s and 80s.

[plowking]

Bryant is very similar to Jordan. Wade is just as strong at 230lbs.

Similar but not evel close Talent, Skill, Athletic, Strength etc wise.

Wade as strong as Jordan? Please...:rolleyes:

Ron Artest may not be as good a rebounder as Ron Artest but I'm sure he intimidates opponents and is just as strong if not stronger. 6'6 and 260lbs.
Ben Wallace is 6'7 and 255lbs.

Can they out rebound guys like Anthony Mason 6`7 ft 265, Charles Oakley, Rick Mahorn, Karl Malone, Dennis Rodman, McHale, 7`0 Kevin Willis, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Jabbar, Mark Eaton, Daugherty, Webber, Kemp? etc like Barkley did :oldlol:

Lebron is your modern day Magic buddy

Except Magic can Pass Way Better, Create WAY WAY Better, Dribble Way Better, Shoot Way Better from Mid range, THINK WAY WAY BETTER , Rebound Way Better (Can Play PF and C Too), Shoot From the Line Better etc..and Lebron is a SF not a PG...

The Games Level of Talent/Skill-Fundamentals- Court IQ-Passing Game-Tounghness-Will To Win- Has Gone Down Compared to Before Its a Fact that One Must Learn To Accept:sleeping

You change your criteria everytime. First you were asking for unique athletes. Then you say "they can't do this, they can't do that", then I find you a player again and the cycle continues.

There are just as many unique players today as before. Find me a player like Lebron. Find me one like Howard. Find me one like Yao.

Go on, I am waiting.

[Sir Charles]

You change your criteria everytime. First you were asking for unique athletes. Then you say "they can't do this, they can't do that", then I find you a player again and the cycle continues.

There are just as many unique players today as before. Find me a player like Lebron. Find me one like Howard. Find me one like Yao.

Go on, I am waiting.

Magic was like Lebron except he had a Post Up Game, Had the Hook Shoot, Could Pass Better from any where on the Court and Was a Better Rebounder. Magic could Play PG, Point PF (not just Point SF) and Center!

Yao? Well Look for Ralph Sampson: Could Ball Handle like a G, Be as Quick as a G, as Versetaile as SF and could Actually Leap

[Nash-tastic]

Sir Charles, would you mind not bolding your post? Its kinda of an eye sore for me, sorry

[plowking]

Sir Charles, would you mind not bolding your post? Its kinda of an eye sore for me, sorry

Really, its usually what he writes thats sore on the eyes.

[Sir Charles]

Average NBA Height Year By Year from 1985 to 2008:

1985-86 = 6’ 7.36”
1986-87 = 6’ 7.62” (Tallest Year in NBA History)
1987-88 = 6’ 7.38"
1988-89 = 6’ 7.31”
1989-90 = 6’ 7.09”

1990-91 = 6’ 7.16”
1991-92 = 6’ 7.04”
1992-93 = 6’ 7.06”
1993-94 = 6’ 7.34”
1994-95 = 6’ 7.19”
1995-96 = 6’ 7.27”
1996-97 = 6’ 7.20”
1997-98 = 6’ 7.11”
1998-99 = 6’ 7.10”
1999-00 = 6’ 7.26”

2000-01 = 6’ 7.03”
2001-02 = 6’ 7.26”
2002-03 = 6’ 7.40”
2003-04 = 6' 7.31"
2004-05 = 6' 7.26"
2005-06 = 6' 7.18"
2006-07 = 6' 6.93" (Shortest In the Last 22 years)
2007-08 = 6' 6.98" (Shortest In the Last 23 years)

It actually looks like that at "Average"... NBA "Average Heights" have gotten shorter from the mid 80s to the 2000s :roll: :rolleyes: :confusedshrug:

[plowking]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Average NBA Height Year By Year from 1985 to 2008:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]1985-86 = 6

[madmax]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Average NBA Height Year By Year from 1985 to 2008:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]1985-86 = 6

[Skywalker]

is this scrawny guy saying he could score with LeBron and Kobe LMAO

that's a laugh

[plowking]

is this scrawny guy saying he could score with LeBron and Kobe LMAO

that's a laugh

He could, just not as much as he is saying.

[Psileas]

You need to take into consideration the fact, that these averages were hugely inflated back in the 80's, when a lot of scrub stiffs were playing - Manute Bol's, Muresan's and etc. Nowadays these joke of a players wopuldn't make an NBA team. The tallest player today is Yao Ming, who also appears to be a really good player

First of all, Bol and Muresan were only 2 of the 400+ players of the NBA, so even taking them away wouldn't significantly reduce the average height.

Second, Muresan wasn't as bad as you make him to be. Not Yao, but certainly he could easily play if he were at his prime today. After all, he did average 14.5 ppg and 9.6 rpg, while leading the NBA in FG% back in 1996, when the average center quality was higher than today. Hell, people talk about Sun Ming Ming trying to make it to the NBA and Sun, from the videos I've seen, makes Muresan look graceful. Want someone who actually played in the NBA? Pavel Podkolzin was 7'5, played for 2 seasons (2005-2006) and was worse than Muresan/Bol.

Third, Muresan and Bol shared only 2 seasons.

[plowking]

Hey Psileas is that Wilt dunking in that photo?

Mind giving me the link for the picture?

[Sir Charles]

You need to take into consideration the fact, that these averages were hugely inflated back in the 80's, when a lot of scrub stiffs were playing - Manute Bol's, Muresan's and etc. Nowadays these joke of a players wopuldn't make an NBA team. The tallest player today is Yao Ming, who also appears to be a really good player

Muresan was a 90s player...

Manute was a scrub Rebounding Wise but Defensive Wise with his Agil Body and Frame, especially Shot Blocking Wise, he is Probably the Greatest Shot Blocker Per Minute Ever

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bolma01.html

3.3 BPG at 18.7 MPG.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_pct_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Block Pct

NBA/ABA Rank Player BLK%

1. Manute Bol 10.17
2. Shawn Bradley 7.83
3. Theo Ratliff 7.27
4. Greg Ostertag 6.97
5. Mark Eaton 6.92
6. Alonzo Mourning 6.57
7. Marcus Camby 6.46
8. Adonal Foyle 6.41
9. Dikembe Mutombo 6.28
10. George Johnson 6.26
11. Tree Rollins 6.24
12. Andrei Kirilenko 6.14
13. David Robinson 5.69
14. Hakeem Olajuwon* 5.39
15. Ben Wallace 5.20
16. Harvey Catchings 5.07
17. Jermaine O'Neal 5.05
18. Elmore Smith 5.01
19. Patrick Ewing* 4.75
20. Ervin Johnson 4.73
21. Charles Jones 4.70
22. Shaquille O'Neal 4.69
23. Alton Lister 4.65
24. Tim Duncan 4.64
25. Andrew Lang 4.59
26. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 4.51
27. Wayne Cooper 4.32
28. Benoit Benjamin 4.31
29. Elden Campbell 4.28
30. Bill Walton* 4.24

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Blocks Per Game

NBA/ABA Rank Player BPG

1. Mark Eaton 3.50 (80s)
2. Manute Bol 3.34 (80s)
3. Hakeem Olajuwon* 3.09
4. David Robinson 2.99
5. Elmore Smith 2.90
6. Alonzo Mourning 2.81
7. Dikembe Mutombo 2.76
8. Marcus Camby 2.68
9. Theo Ratliff 2.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2.57
11. Shawn Bradley 2.55
12. George Johnson 2.46
13. Patrick Ewing* 2.45
14. Shaquille O'Neal 2.42
15. Tim Duncan 2.42
16. Artis Gilmore 2.39

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The tallest player today is Yao Ming but he can hardly do things on an aging slow Shaq while in the 90s you had Robinson (89-should have been an 87 draft), Hakeem (84 draft) schooled Shaq, Ewing (85 draft) and Zo (92 draft) play great against a PRIME SHAQ :confusedshrug:

Other threee centers that played quite well against Shaq was Divac, Rick Smits and a crippled Sabonis (in the 80s = TOP 5 Center Ever With Ease).

What do Both These 3 Players Share in Common?

They Play like 80s Players, With Great Fundamentals. Coincidence? :rolleyes:

Scrubb & Stiffs? Actually todays PFs-Cs are Scrubs and Stiffs compared to Barkley-Worthy-McHale (in the Post any one is scrub compared to him)-Sampson-Larry Nance-Malone-Tarpley-Perkins(fundamentals my friends!)-Coleman-Kemp-Webber

In the SF position its even more humilating while the 80s was the Best Time Ever for the SF position:: Bird-Doctor-Cedric Maxwell-Alex English-Nique-Chambers-Adrian Dantley-Bernard King-Mark Aguirre-Vandeweghe-Terry Cummings-Mullin-Pippen-McDaniel etc

All These Players had Superior Fundamentals, Skills, B-Ball IQ, Passing Game and Shooting than 95% of the SFs of today

Strangley enough the Second Best SF in the league resembles the Fundamentals of the 80s PLayers: Paul Pierece

Strangley enough the Best SF of the league has the Passing Game and can Rebound similar to Magic: Lebron..

..The rest can jump nice, dunk cool, look flashy and thats about it.

:confusedshrug:

[plowking]

Muresan was a 90s player...

Manute was a scrub Rebounding Wise but Defensive Wise with his Agil Body and Frame, especially Shot Blocking Wise, he is Probably the Greatest Shot Blocker Per Minute Ever

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bolma01.html

3.3 BPG at 18.7 MPG.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_pct_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Block Pct

NBA/ABA Rank Player BLK%

1. Manute Bol 10.17
2. Shawn Bradley 7.83
3. Theo Ratliff 7.27
4. Greg Ostertag 6.97
5. Mark Eaton 6.92
6. Alonzo Mourning 6.57
7. Marcus Camby 6.46
8. Adonal Foyle 6.41
9. Dikembe Mutombo 6.28
10. George Johnson 6.26
11. Tree Rollins 6.24
12. Andrei Kirilenko 6.14
13. David Robinson 5.69
14. Hakeem Olajuwon* 5.39
15. Ben Wallace 5.20
16. Harvey Catchings 5.07
17. Jermaine O'Neal 5.05
18. Elmore Smith 5.01
19. Patrick Ewing* 4.75
20. Ervin Johnson 4.73
21. Charles Jones 4.70
22. Shaquille O'Neal 4.69
23. Alton Lister 4.65
24. Tim Duncan 4.64
25. Andrew Lang 4.59
26. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 4.51
27. Wayne Cooper 4.32
28. Benoit Benjamin 4.31
29. Elden Campbell 4.28
30. Bill Walton* 4.24

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Blocks Per Game

NBA/ABA Rank Player BPG

1. Mark Eaton 3.50 (80s)
2. Manute Bol 3.34 (80s)
3. Hakeem Olajuwon* 3.09
4. David Robinson 2.99
5. Elmore Smith 2.90
6. Alonzo Mourning 2.81
7. Dikembe Mutombo 2.76
8. Marcus Camby 2.68
9. Theo Ratliff 2.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2.57
11. Shawn Bradley 2.55
12. George Johnson 2.46
13. Patrick Ewing* 2.45
14. Shaquille O'Neal 2.42
15. Tim Duncan 2.42
16. Artis Gilmore 2.39

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The tallest player today is Yao Ming but he can hardly do things on an agin Shaq while in the 90s you had Robinson (89-should have been an 87 draft), Hakeem (84 draft) schooled Shaq, Ewing (85 draft) and Zo (92 draft) play great against a PRIME SHAQ :confusedshrug:

Scrubb & Stiffs? Actually todays PFs-Cs are Scrubs and Stiffs compared to Barkley-Worthy-McHale (in the Post any one is scrub compared to him)-Sampson-Larry Nance-Malone-Tarpley-Perkins(fundamentals my friends!)-Coleman-Kemp-Webber

In the SF position its even more humilating while the 80s was the Best Time Ever for the SF position:: Bird-Doctor-Cedric Maxwell-Alex English-Nique-Chambers-Adrian Dantley-Bernard King-Mark Aguirre-Vandeweghe-Terry Cummings-Mullin-Pippen-McDaniel etc

All These Players had Superior Fundamentals, Passing Game and Shooting than 98% of the SFs of today

Strangley enough the Second Best SF in the league resembles the Fundamentals of the 80s PLayers: Paul Pierece

Strangley enough the Best SF of the league has the Passing Game and can Rebound similar to Magic: Lebron..

..The rest can jump nice, dunk cool and thats about it.

:confusedshrug:

Wait a second...

Barkley is not in either one of those lists. Are you saying he is no longer the greatest?

[plowking]

Muresan was a 90s player...

Manute was a scrub Rebounding Wise but Defensive Wise with his Agil Body and Frame, especially Shot Blocking Wise, he is Probably the Greatest Shot Blocker Per Minute Ever

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bolma01.html

3.3 BPG at 18.7 MPG.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_pct_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Block Pct

NBA/ABA Rank Player BLK%

1. Manute Bol 10.17
2. Shawn Bradley 7.83
3. Theo Ratliff 7.27
4. Greg Ostertag 6.97
5. Mark Eaton 6.92
6. Alonzo Mourning 6.57
7. Marcus Camby 6.46
8. Adonal Foyle 6.41
9. Dikembe Mutombo 6.28
10. George Johnson 6.26
11. Tree Rollins 6.24
12. Andrei Kirilenko 6.14
13. David Robinson 5.69
14. Hakeem Olajuwon* 5.39
15. Ben Wallace 5.20
16. Harvey Catchings 5.07
17. Jermaine O'Neal 5.05
18. Elmore Smith 5.01
19. Patrick Ewing* 4.75
20. Ervin Johnson 4.73
21. Charles Jones 4.70
22. Shaquille O'Neal 4.69
23. Alton Lister 4.65
24. Tim Duncan 4.64
25. Andrew Lang 4.59
26. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 4.51
27. Wayne Cooper 4.32
28. Benoit Benjamin 4.31
29. Elden Campbell 4.28
30. Bill Walton* 4.24

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Blocks Per Game

NBA/ABA Rank Player BPG

1. Mark Eaton 3.50 (80s)
2. Manute Bol 3.34 (80s)
3. Hakeem Olajuwon* 3.09
4. David Robinson 2.99
5. Elmore Smith 2.90
6. Alonzo Mourning 2.81
7. Dikembe Mutombo 2.76
8. Marcus Camby 2.68
9. Theo Ratliff 2.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2.57
11. Shawn Bradley 2.55
12. George Johnson 2.46
13. Patrick Ewing* 2.45
14. Shaquille O'Neal 2.42
15. Tim Duncan 2.42
16. Artis Gilmore 2.39

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The tallest player today is Yao Ming but he can hardly do things on an agin Shaq while in the 90s you had Robinson (89-should have been an 87 draft), Hakeem (84 draft) schooled Shaq, Ewing (85 draft) and Zo (92 draft) play great against a PRIME SHAQ :confusedshrug: Other two centers that played well agains Shaq was Divac and Sabonis: Both Players with Extrame Fundamentals 80s Style Players

Scrubb & Stiffs? Actually todays PFs-Cs are Scrubs and Stiffs compared to Barkley-Worthy-McHale (in the Post any one is scrub compared to him)-Sampson-Larry Nance-Malone-Tarpley-Perkins(fundamentals my friends!)-Coleman-Kemp-Webber

In the SF position its even more humilating while the 80s was the Best Time Ever for the SF position:: Bird-Doctor-Cedric Maxwell-Alex English-Nique-Chambers-Adrian Dantley-Bernard King-Mark Aguirre-Vandeweghe-Terry Cummings-Mullin-Pippen-McDaniel etc

All These Players had Superior Fundamentals, Passing Game and Shooting than 98% of the SFs of today

Strangley enough the Second Best SF in the league resembles the Fundamentals of the 80s PLayers: Paul Pierece

Strangley enough the Best SF of the league has the Passing Game and can Rebound similar to Magic: Lebron..

..The rest can jump nice, dunk cool and thats about it.

:confusedshrug:

No they really didn't.

I provided stats showing that players shoot more jumpshots then players of the past.

[Sir Charles]

No they really didn't.

I provided stats showing that players shoot more jumpshots then players of the past.

They have an easier time going past their man and not getting fouled (Real Fouls!) like what the 80s or 90s player suffered and 90% of the players today away from the Guard Positions can`t develop a decent passing game like Lebron and Pierce? Pfff no excuse

:oldlol: :violin:

[Psileas]

Hey Psileas is that Wilt dunking in that photo?

Mind giving me the link for the picture?

It's Wilt.

The link is: http://wiltfan.tripod.com/pictures.htm (open the photo "Phili 2")

[Sir Charles]

It's Wilt.

The link is: http://wiltfan.tripod.com/pictures.htm (open the photo "Phili 2")

Great Pic and Some Idiots of Today Say Wilt was an unathletic Scrub? :rolleyes:

Just Imagine Wilt with the 90s and 2000s Weight Lifting Programs (which by the way strenghens your overal all strength but not your natural strength without excersize), Diets etc of today.

Wilt today would be like a 7`2 315 lbs maniac with arm strength like Karl Malone, great winspan and stamina-endourance like Dennis Rodman to add to his natural: leaping ability, body strength, arm strength etc.

Wilts winspan is insane even for a 7`2 er by the way

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/pictures.htm

Pic 8

Wilts pathetic Leaping Ability:

Look at the Track Pics and See For Yourself (especially Pic 1 )

[Psileas]

Well, I agree, but let's not turn this topic into a Wilt one.

[Manute for Ever!]

You need to take into consideration the fact, that these averages were hugely inflated back in the 80's, when a lot of scrub stiffs were playing - Manute Bol's, Muresan's and etc. Nowadays these joke of a players wopuldn't make an NBA team. The tallest player today is Yao Ming, who also appears to be a really good player

Hey, watch your mouth :D

[Samurai Swoosh]

I don't think Gervin could do that at all on call. Or to say it'd be "easy" ...

Different game now. Less coked out players. More defense (I'd have loved to see him say this in the 90's) . . . more defensive strategy with the whole psuedo zone defense . . . athleticism is widely spread through out the league. No beating players off pure athleticism at all times.

The ICE MAN needs to be put on ICE with this comment. To say it so flippant and nonchalant and demeaning kind of offends me. Got that old man in the barbershop thing going on right now.

"I walked up hill to school both ways, thats how rough and tough I had it."

Me: "Not possible, old man."

[eliteballer]

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2932/08tmac3xv8.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081022/capt.20f83e1f14d1488991c2f5066077fec2.pacers_horne ts_basketball_lawh105.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081022/capt.55de4891935a4e36b877e12d45c141f3.grizzlies_he at_basketball_aaa107.jpg

[plowking]

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2932/08tmac3xv8.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081022/capt.20f83e1f14d1488991c2f5066077fec2.pacers_horne ts_basketball_lawh105.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081022/capt.55de4891935a4e36b877e12d45c141f3.grizzlies_he at_basketball_aaa107.jpg

Handchecking is very much prominent in todays basketball. People just ignore the fact. It is not called as strictly as it was the year it was introduced, though occasionally it does get called.

BTW Psileas thanks for the link.

[Sir Charles]

Handchecking is very much prominent in todays basketball. People just ignore the fact. It is not called as strictly as it was the year it was introduced, though occasionally it does get called.

None of them Are Driving On to the Basket or Going 1 on 1, They Are Just Standing There Palming or Holding the Ball

:rolleyes:

Proof That in the 90s Began the Decline of NBA Basketball (2000s = Actual Puss**y League)

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=yhQewgWCd10

The Amazing "Zone"/Modern Day Defense

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=9GZfgo8_z7Q&feature=related

80s NBA Basketball

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kYtjs0FqxoM&NR=1

80s > 90s > 2000s :confusedshrug:

[plowking]

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc&feature=related

There is the difference.

Players in the 90's had more contact, players now have more players dropping down and helping players. Furthermore players now are forced into jumpshots decreasing their efficiency.

[plowking]

In that video I watched, look at the play at 2.35. 5 players drop down and help.

[plowking]

Plus Kobe said defense was better now so whatever a great player of the game says must be true... :rolleyes:

[Loki]

In that video I watched, look at the play at 2.35. 5 players drop down and help.

Do you think that play illustrates something special? I understand that zone allows defenders to do certain things they previously couldn't do, but that isn't the best example to make your point. That same collapsing happened before zone to all great players (perimeter or interior) once they got inside on either post-ups or penetration.

That video is hysterical, btw. Dude is incredibly biased. Yeah, it's so hard to get to the basket that guys like James and Wade get inside on 35-40% of their shot attempts (to say nothing of the times they get fouled inside). That means that if they take 20 shots, 7-8 of them are coming inside, plus some other interior attempts that resulted in some of their 10+ FTA/gm.

[shawbryant]

Who the hell does this guy think he is:no:

[plowking]

Do you think that play illustrates something special? I understand that zone allows defenders to do certain things they previously couldn't do, but that isn't the best example to make your point. That same collapsing happened before zone to all great players (perimeter or interior) once they got inside on either post-ups or penetration.

That video is hysterical, btw. Dude is incredibly biased. Yeah, it's so hard to get to the basket that guys like James and Wade get inside on 35-40% of their shot attempts (to say nothing of the times they get fouled inside). That means that if they take 20 shots, 7-8 of them are coming inside, plus some other interior attempts that resulted in some of their 10+ FTA/gm.


Just mute it. :D

Like you said the guy is extremely biased, though it does illustrate, how defense is played differently. It forces more jumpshots, like I pointed out, which doesn't allow wing players now to be as efficient as those playing in previous eras.

[Hotlantadude81]

the old/retired dudes always think they were better than the young/current dudes. nothing to see here, just another old man who doesn't like how the game has changed.

Well, he has played Pro Ball unlike everybody on this site dishing out their opinions. His opinion is probably more valid than anybody on this boards.

[Hotlantadude81]

Allen Iverson, Earl Boykins and Gilbert Arenas can score in this league but Ice can't. too funny.

Yeah, a B grade guard like Joe Johnson averaged 25PPG last with little breakdown ability and GG can't score 30?:roll:

[Hotlantadude81]

AI is a better scorer than this guy and i dont see him avg 40 a game.

AI shoots 40%... GG shot 51% for his career.

[Hotlantadude81]

[QUOTE=madmax]everything is evolving and improving,/QUOTE]

Yeah, America is getting better and better as time progresses..... Music is just getting better and better. Movies are just getting better and better.:lol

[Hotlantadude81]

The NBA now is a league full of dumb players and is more or less passable entertainment and nothing more. That's why the NBA struggles to keep a fan base.

[Sir Charles]

Basketball IQ (especially court anwareness), Passing Game, Fundamentals has Gotten Worst than ever before. Stern`s desperate ways to create more Jordan`s or perimter players of similar caracteristics than can score big from the outside driving in or 1 on 1 has been enforced and their job made easier through creating of the handchecking rules, 3 second rule enforced so more perimter players have a chance to get inside easier, he has also taken away the excesive physical contact between inside players Cs,Pfs and Sfs making the NBA even softer than it already is after the flagrant foul rule (any foul is flagrant today), 5 scond rule back to the basket goes against inside stocky players that have a back the basket game etc...there is a favorization to perimter players over inside players (the Jordan effect) and zone defense has made it so in the book theoricaly it looks like defense is better but it has no results against players whom have fundamentals, passing game and know how to move and break that d with ease.

[Hotlantadude81]

Basketball IQ (especially court anwareness), Passing Game, Fundamentals has Gotten Worst than ever before. Stern`s desperate ways to create more Jordan`s or perimter players of similar caracteristics than can score big from the outside driving in or 1 on 1 has been enforced and their job made easier through creating of the handchecking rules, 3 second rule enforced so more perimter players have a chance to get inside easier, he has also taken away the excesive physical contact between inside players Cs,Pfs and Sfs making the NBA even softer than it already is after the flagrant foul rule (any foul is flagrant today), 5 scond rule back to the basket goes against inside stocky players that have a back the basket game etc...there is a favorization to perimter players over inside players (the Jordan effect) and zone defense has made it so in the book, theoricaly it looks like defense is better but when players have fundamentals, passing game and know how to move they can be broken with ease.

Everything is better the last 2 or 3 years than it was from about 2000-2005, but it's still not all that.

[Sir Charles]

Everything is better the last 2 or 3 years than it was from about 2000-2005, but it's still not all that.

Haven`t seen much change since 1999 and by the Mid 90s one knew that the NBA`s level was going down. Many even precieved that since 1992 the game had gone soft and the league weakend to do to watering down

[eliteballer]

None of them Are Driving On to the Basket or Going 1 on 1, They Are Just Standing There Palming or Holding the Ball


http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/52/fullj.d5d5d35abbc49c2f94f51438a687a458/d5d5d35abbc49c2f94f51438a687a458-getty-83027667ng005_blazers_clips.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081023/capt.16984fdd82914708b34af179823155c0.cavaliers_pi stons_basketball_dtp106.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/1f/fullj.1626712c5cad155be9900cb5cab63962/1626712c5cad155be9900cb5cab63962-getty-83027671ae006pistons_cavs.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081023/capt.c82aa96b481f45519dc53d526ce9f1e5.grizzlies_ma gic_basketball_doa109.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/a0/fullj.cba4e253f03cc220bca7e1822ac356aa/cba4e253f03cc220bca7e1822ac356aa-getty-83027666ce001_wiz_spur.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/3d/fullj.66f7935cc619c08ccbeb7d0c1a981b91/66f7935cc619c08ccbeb7d0c1a981b91-getty-83027663ds004_bulls_twolvs.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/26/fullj.50d77c313a83d92e9d90828de57749e7/50d77c313a83d92e9d90828de57749e7-getty-83027670jg002_sixers_nets.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/5d/fullj.ccb8e628138aff698115e926568fa3f4/ccb8e628138aff698115e926568fa3f4-getty-83027669fm002_grizzlies_magic.jpg

[Sir Charles]

Touching is not Handchecking :oldlol:

This is Real Handchecking: This is How 80s-90s Legends Where Guarded

Barkley`s 56 Points vs Webber-Sprewell-Mullin-Gatling

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=cAdMW4Hi8yI

1st they put in a stocky Byron Houston: 6`6 ft/250 lbs...directly brought as a short stocky 6`6 breed to the Warrios to stop Barkley: No Result!

2nd they put in Chris Gatling: 6`10 ft /220-240 lbs: No Result!

*Minutes 1.58 to 2.05 and *Minutes 5.09 to 5.13 = Real Handchecking

*Two Handed Handchecking and a Foul on Both Shots no Call on Chucks Both Realeases.

*Today a Foul even Before Chuck gets those Shot`s Off.

3rd they put in Chris Webber: 6`9ft /245-255 lbs: No Result!

*Minute 6.14-6.19

Not Just Double Handedchecking But Two Handed Pushing!..No Foul Called

Jordan v.s the 92 Knicks

Part 1

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=dxBhQKtG2Zo

Part 2

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=mBKQ4UozGMU

Knicks Play-Off Way of Treatment on the Bulls

Part 1

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=CsG2aMwEA6c

Part 2

*No Free Layups, No Free Drives, Handchecking Everywhere + Pushing Everwhere + Holding for Rebounds Everywhere etc

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=KZLUV_Hc2_I&feature=related

Resume of the Knick Treatment

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjqMROm9RE&feature=related

80s Play-Off = No Free Layups, No Free Drives, Handchecking Everywhere + Pushing Everwhere + Holding for Rebounds Everywhere etc

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kYtjs0FqxoM&NR=1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[B]Kobe 81 Point Game:

[eliteballer]

Touching is not Handchecking :oldlol:
[/url]

You don't understand the rules of basketball. Handchecking is either using your forearm to make contact or your palm. PUSHING is not part of basketball, which is why it has been more highly controlled. Players were starting to push the offensive players.


HAND CHECKING



Hand checking continues to be a concern and needs to be addressed. Hand checking, if allowed, leads to rough play if not penalized.


Each year the game is being played with more intensity by bigger and stronger players. By rule, a player may not hold an opponent as the rules have no provisions for ignoring contact when a player impedes an opponent from making normal movement on the court.


Players need to understand that placing a hand on the offensive player’s body and “steering” them in a different direction is a foul. A defensive player using an “arm bar” against an opponent has committed a foul.



Hand checking is not incidental contact. There are numerous advantages gained by a player that is allowed to use their hands in an excessive manner – quicker starts or stops, stopping/slowing or altering the movement of a player, displacing a player, controlling or anticipating an opponent’s next move. These pertain to both offense and defense, on or off the ball.



GUIDELINES


1. Address these at the beginning of the game, issue one warning if no disadvantage to offense and stay consistent throughout.



2. If a player puts a hand on his/her opponent and leaves it there – IT IS A FOUL



3. If a player puts both hands on an opponent –IT IS A FOUL



4. If a player continually “jabs” or “tags” an opponent – IT IS A FOUL



5. If a player uses hands or forearms to guide or direct an opponent – IT IS A FOUL



6. If a defensive player displaces a cutter – IT IS A FOUL



7. In summary: anytime the defense places a hand(s) on an opponent and the opponent’s course is altered – IT IS A FOUL. This applies to both offensive and defensive players. Hand checking always creates an advantage.



For officials not to enforce the rules prohibiting hand checking is a disservice to the game.


Howard Mayo

http://www.oreofficials.org/files/sport%20pages/basketball/Hand%20checking.htm

[Sir Charles]

You don't understand the rules of basketball. Handchecking is either using your forearm to make contact or your palm. PUSHING is not part of basketball, which is why it has been more highly controlled. Players were starting to push the offensive players.


http://www.oreofficials.org/files/sport%20pages/basketball/Hand%20checking.htm

I know that perfectly but what do you say to say on this:

"PUSHING is not part of basketball, which is why it has been more highly controlled"

2. If a player puts a hand on his/her opponent and leaves it there – IT IS A FOUL


3. If a player puts both hands on an opponent –IT IS A FOUL


5. If a player uses hands or forearms to guide or direct an opponent – IT IS A FOUL

PUSHING FROM BEHINED DOUBLE HANDED ON BARKLEY + GUIDING WITH HANDS, right here on EVRY PLAY:

94 Play-Offs:

Barkley`s 56 Points vs Webber-Sprewell-Mullin-Gatling

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=cAdMW4Hi8yI

a) 1st they put in a stocky Byron Houston: 6`6 ft/250 lbs...directly brought as a short stocky 6`6 breed to the Warrios to stop Barkley: No Result!

b) 2nd they put in Chris Gatling: 6`10 ft /220-240 lbs: No Result!

*Minutes 1.58 to 2.05 and *Minutes 5.09 to 5.13 = Real Handchecking

*Two Handed Handchecking and a Foul on Both Shots, No Foul Called on either of Chucks Both Realeases.

*Today a Foul even Before Chuck gets those Shot`s Off.

c) 3rd they put in Chris Webber: 6`9ft /245-255 lbs: No Result!

*Minute 6.14-6.19

*Not Just Double Handedchecking But Two Handed Pushing!..No Foul Called!

Why is this not allowed today?:confusedshrug:

[Scott Pippen]

handchecking rule has changed many times before it was taken away 90% in early 2000s. Post up rule especially. After 1992, two hands in the back was no longer allowed on the post up man. No more using your knee to get position in the post. No more shoving or clothesline in the paint. No hard fouls bodying someone. And so on:applause:

[Sir Charles]

handchecking rule has changed many times before it was taken away 90% in early 2000s. Post up rule especially. After 1992, two hands in the back was no longer allowed on the post up man. No more using your knee to get position in the post. No more shoving or clothesline in the paint. No hard fouls bodying someone. And so on:applause:


True Pipp but on Barkley it was allowed in 93-94 :confusedshrug: Check it out

"PUSHING is not part of basketball, which is why it has been more highly controlled"

2. If a player puts a hand on his/her opponent and leaves it there – IT IS A FOUL


3. If a player puts both hands on an opponent –IT IS A FOUL


5. If a player uses hands or forearms to guide or direct an opponent – IT IS A FOUL

PUSHING FROM BEHINED DOUBLE HANDED ON BARKLEY + GUIDING WITH HANDS, right here on EVRY PLAY:

94 Play-Offs:

Barkley`s 56 Points vs Webber-Sprewell-Mullin-Gatling

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=cAdMW4Hi8yI

a) 1st they put in a stocky Byron Houston: 6`6 ft/250 lbs...directly brought as a short stocky 6`6 breed to the Warrios to stop Barkley: No Result!

b) 2nd they put in Chris Gatling: 6`10 ft /220-240 lbs: No Result!

*Minutes 1.58 to 2.05 and *Minutes 5.09 to 5.13 = Real Handchecking

*Two Handed Handchecking and a Foul on Both Shots, No Foul Called on either of Chucks Both Realeases.

*Today a Foul even Before Chuck gets those Shot`s Off.

c) 3rd they put in Chris Webber: 6`9ft /245-255 lbs: No Result!

*Minute 6.14-6.19

*Not Just Double Handedchecking But Two Handed Pushing!..No Foul Called!

[eliteballer]

NBA Rules History

1978-79

Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through “rigid enforcement” of rule allowing a defensive player to retain contact with his opponent so long as he does not impede his opponent’s progress.


1994-95

Hand-checking eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

[Scott Pippen]

True Pipp but on Barkley it was allowed in 93-94 :confusedshrug: Check it out

I meant officially. According to the rulebook.:applause:

[Sir Charles]

I meant officially. According to the rulebook.:applause:

:roll: :cheers: :applause:

Today`s players got it so easy compared to those legends :pimp: :violin:

[eliteballer]

[QUOTE]NBA Rules History

1978-79

[B]Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through

[Sir Charles]

First of all...Barkley is not getting pushed by two hands on every play. Second, post play by it's nature is more physical because the players are bigger and more stationary.

Yes he is. Look at the videos and Minutes

Physical Today? Todays Frontlines Are the Most Borring to Watch, the Game of today has been designed to create (undeservely hyped up ofcourse) more Jordan-Like Perimter Offensive 1 on 1 Drive to the Basket Players. Frontline`s can`t even touch each other anymore.

[JellyBean]

The Iceman could have scored 30-40 a night if he played during this era. Gervin was quick and smooth, plus he could handle the physical play, if current NBA players were tough enough. I am glad that I grew up in the 70s and 80s. Watching Ice play was unreal.

[plowking]

[QUOTE=madmax]everything is evolving and improving,/QUOTE]

Yeah, America is getting better and better as time progresses..... Music is just getting better and better. Movies are just getting better and better.:lol

You just proved the point. The only two other topics you picked to relate to this, were choice topics.

Music and movies are about taste, thus some people will like todays movies, while others will like movies from the past. Sports are not. Sports are simply better now.

Look at the players from the 1960's for example. A majority of the stars even dribbled with their head down, dribble infront of themselves, didn't protect the ball well. Yes, they were legends of their time, but there is no way they could stand a chance in todays game.

80's and 90's definately could. Though once again for wing players, I don't think their FG% would be as high as it was back in the 80's and 90's due to the defense forcing more jumpshots.

[Psileas]

Look at the players from the 1960's for example. A majority of the stars even dribbled with their head down, dribble infront of themselves, didn't protect the ball well. Yes, they were legends of their time, but there is no way they could stand a chance in todays game.

That's the usual argument against old-timers, but answer this simple question: Do you believe that these players would still dribble with their head down if they played today? Do you believe Dolph Schayes would shoot set shots? Or that players would follow the practice techniques of their era? Even if they were "transported in time" (an argument that I've repeatedly showed that it sucks big time), do you think that most of those players would be incapable of adapting? Would Bob Cousy or Slater Martin find it that difficult to perform things that even untalented guys can do, it they needed to do it?
Similarly, would you still use a computer of the capacity of yours if you lived in 2100? Would Napoleon still use musketeers if he was a 20th century general? And the examples go on.

[Psileas]

BTW, that's not to say that the average player of the 60's was as good as the player of the 00's. But that's not what greatness is all about. The exact fact that sports evolve is proof of that. If they didn't, then yes, that would prove that 00's players are greater than 60's ones.
I'm sure that in 2050 players will be better than the 2000's players, as well. They'll be more athletic, there will be more players with LeBron's natural gifts, there will be many PF's dribbling and shooting like Dirk and there will be many centers as "good" as Hakeem. So, for old-time deniers, it seems that, if basketball exists for significantly more than their lifespan, they'll miss the greatest players ever, regardless of who they did see playing.

BTW, since you give so much weight to sport evolution, why did you say that the best era of NBA ever was the late 80's-early 90's and not today?

[SHEED_ gangsta]

has anybody in this thread played in the NBA? NO??? so stfu!!!! the man has been there, he knows what he's talking about

[stephanieg]

I'm sure that in 2050 players will be better than the 2000's players, as well. They'll be more athletic, there will be more players with LeBron's natural gifts, there will be many PF's dribbling and shooting like Dirk and there will be many centers as "good" as Hakeem.

:wtf:

Does the phrase diminishing returns mean anything to you?

This won't happen unless we start genetically engineering players in a lab.

[Psileas]

Does the phrase diminishing returns mean anything to you?

This won't happen unless we start genetically engineering players in a lab.

Do you doubt it may happen some day, as well (the lab thing)?

It's still a matter of discussion whether we've reached the apex of human body capabilities under all medical circumstances, and most disagree that we have. Not always was it believed even among scientists that a human could run 100 m. in 9.65 or less (which is a realistic figure of what Bolt would run under normal consequences, without this "celebration" thing). The era when records won't be able to fall at a satisfying rate (which, as Bolt and Phelps showed, didn't arrive yet) will either signal the death of many sports or the (legal) brink of something medical which would be considered illegal or immoral by previous standards. And knowing that sports' business recognises only the color of money, I would bet on the second.

BTW, I'm not even talking only about athleticism. I'm talking about certain skills in general. Yes, I'm sure there will be more big guys doing things that only 1-2 do today and no-one did in the 80's. In the same way, that modern PG's dribble the ball visibly better even than the PG's of the 60's or even 80's/90's. And yes, the best of them all will be able to do more things than the best of today.

[XxNeXuSxX]

I'm glad I stopped posting in this forum.

[SHEED_ gangsta]

yet you're posting in it right now :roll: :roll:

[Scott Pippen]

I'm glad I stopped posting in this forum.

agree. NBA Forum is a piece of ****, besides the good sane posters like psileas, etc..

[Hotlantadude81]

[QUOTE=Hotlantadude81]

You just proved the point. The only two other topics you picked to relate to this, were choice topics.

Music and movies are about taste, thus some people will like todays movies, while others will like movies from the past. Sports are not. Sports are simply better now.

Look at the players from the 1960's for example. A majority of the stars even dribbled with their head down, dribble infront of themselves, didn't protect the ball well. Yes, they were legends of their time, but there is no way they could stand a chance in todays game.

80's and 90's definately could. Though once again for wing players, I don't think their FG% would be as high as it was back in the 80's and 90's due to the defense forcing more jumpshots.


I'm not going to argue about 60's players that much. However, I will say that I do believe a player like GG could average in the high 20's. As I said, Joe Johnson averaged 25PPG two years ago and he's not overly athletic and doesn't have much ability to break down his man off the dribble.

The players now can barely beat some of the euro teams. I watch games and I'm not impressed by this so called great defense that people claim is being played now. The NBA has lots of terrible defensive teams. You have GS, Atlanta, Phx, NY, Denver, Memphis, Sac Town, Indy and several others that aren't really good defensive teams.

Off the top of my head, the only teams I would say that are truly really good defensive teams are: SA, Detroit, Boston, Cleveland, and Houston. You might can include Philly and NO if you want to.


dfdhfdhfdfhdd from Russia seems to be able play with today's NBA players, but Jerry West couldn't? Not buying it. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if a number of NBA players now would even get beat by WNBA players in shooting contests. I think today's players are more flawed that some people here are letting on.

On top of it all, considering the NBA is struggling to maintain a fan base I think most people aren't finding that the NBA is getting better and better as you suggest. But anyway, I'm about to be moving so I got to get some rest because I got a busy weekend ahead.

[eliteballer]

dfdhfdhfdfhdd from Russia seems to be able play with today's NBA players, but Jerry West couldn't? Not buying it.

That statement doesn't make any sense. What does being from Russia have to do with it? A white guy from Russia is no different than a white guy from the US.

[plowking]

That's the usual argument against old-timers, but answer this simple question: Do you believe that these players would still dribble with their head down if they played today? Do you believe Dolph Schayes would shoot set shots? Or that players would follow the practice techniques of their era? Even if they were "transported in time" (an argument that I've repeatedly showed that it sucks big time), do you think that most of those players would be incapable of adapting? Would Bob Cousy or Slater Martin find it that difficult to perform things that even untalented guys can do, it they needed to do it?
Similarly, would you still use a computer of the capacity of yours if you lived in 2100? Would Napoleon still use musketeers if he was a 20th century general? And the examples go on.


No, of course not. I believe the players would be up to that of normal NBA level. Though the question is more of, if this player, with his skillset was placed in this era... Not "if this player was in this era and had modified training and advanced technology", etc.
Players in the 60's would not be able to compete with their skillset from back then. Of course with training in todays game, they would be up to todays standard and the great players would be great today.

That's the main point I argue with you about in our historic Shaq vs Wilt conversations. Wilt would need to refine his game and expand his skillset. I know you say Wilt has a variety of moves, though the execution would not be up to par of Shaq moves. Though without doubt, if Wilt had the training and what not that regular players have today, he would be a great.

Also I said that the 80's and 90's were probably the best, but I meant more in an entertainment purpose though due to the fact that the game was more free flowing and players were able to display their skills.
Todays game is a lot of stop-start basketball, which has led most fans to lose interest.

[Sir Charles]

No, of course not. I believe the players would be up to that of normal NBA level. Though the question is more of, if this player, with his skillset was placed in this era... Not "if this player was in this era and had modified training and advanced technology", etc.
Players in the 60's would not be able to compete with their skillset from back then. Of course with training in todays game, they would be up to todays standard and the great players would be great today.

That's the main point I argue with you about in our historic Shaq vs Wilt conversations. Wilt would need to refine his game and expand his skillset. I know you say Wilt has a variety of moves, though the execution would not be up to par of Shaq moves. Though without doubt, if Wilt had the training and what not that regular players have today, he would be a great.

Also I said that the 80's and 90's were probably the best, but I meant more in an entertainment purpose though due to the fact that the game was more free flowing and players were able to display their skills.
Todays game is a lot of stop-start basketball, which has led most fans to lose interest.

Wrong todays game is boring because we where used to seeing Real Defense :Handchecking was common, no easly Lay ups, Physical Play in the Paint, Most Players had more NAtural Talent, Passing Game and Ball Movement (Reason why more Up Tempo in the 80s, Reason why a 36 year old Magic came and schooled the NBA playing as a Sub in 96), Fundamentals, B-Ball IQ, Winning was as Important and Sometimes more than the Money etc. All things that were a feutre of the nba in the 80s and 90s. People must learn to understand that. There are many people complaining about this not just me or some others in ISH but many...

[Scott Pippen]

Also I said that the 80's and 90's were probably the best, but I meant more in an entertainment purpose though due to the fact that the game was more free flowing and players were able to display their skills.
Todays game is a lot of stop-start basketball, which has led most fans to lose interest.

you have it backwards

[Psileas]

That's the main point I argue with you about in our historic Shaq vs Wilt conversations. Wilt would need to refine his game and expand his skillset. I know you say Wilt has a variety of moves, though the execution would not be up to par of Shaq moves. Though without doubt, if Wilt had the training and what not that regular players have today, he would be a great.

And that's a point I disagree about. I don't find any reason of why he should try to refine it even more. On the contrary, young Wilt seemed to play too gently at times, with all the fancy fade-aways and bank shots. He was still unblockable and, honestly, I don't believe many could seriously challenge it even today (after all, we know that, apart from the dunk/close lay-up, Shaq's mini-hook was his second most unstoppable shot, and he didn't take it from the height and with the angle Wilt took his own shots).

That would make Wilt exciting, but in order to raise his effectiveness, he would need to make his game more brutal, except if his coaches remained happy with the "Hakeem style" instead of the "Shaq style".

[plowking]

And that's a point I disagree about. I don't find any reason of why he should try to refine it even more. On the contrary, young Wilt seemed to play too gently at times, with all the fancy fade-aways and bank shots. He was still unblockable and, honestly, I don't believe many could seriously challenge it even today (after all, we know that, apart from the dunk/close lay-up, Shaq's mini-hook was his second most unstoppable shot, and he didn't take it from the height and with the angle Wilt took his own shots).

That would make Wilt exciting, but in order to raise his effectiveness, he would need to make his game more brutal, except if his coaches remained happy with the "Hakeem style" instead of the "Shaq style".

Wilt also used the finger-roll over a lot of smaller defenders. Wilt had some very good moves that would hold up in todays game, though he also got points from very weak moves.

[plowking]

you have it backwards


So you are saying the 80's and 90's were stop-start? Yes, because that would be interesting... :rolleyes:
You are contradicting your belief that 80's/90's were the better era if you disagree with that statement. There was more contact allowed which allowed for a more free flowing game. Where am I wrong in that?

[Hotlantadude81]

That statement doesn't make any sense. What does being from Russia have to do with it? A white guy from Russia is no different than a white guy from the US.

This USA teams are barely beating unknowns. It's no secret that the USA teams have struggled with these euro teams in large part because of fundamentals. I just find it laughable that the NBA players struggle against these guys, but guys from the 60's couldn't compete with today's NBA players.

But fine, you say the same about somebody like Mike Miller who is a 16-18PPG scorer. He isn't all that and a bag of chips either.

[Hotlantadude81]

Wrong todays game is boring because we where used to seeing Real Defense :Handchecking was common, no easly Lay ups, Physical Play in the Paint, Most Players had more NAtural Talent, Passing Game and Ball Movement (Reason why more Up Tempo in the 80s, Reason why a 36 year old Magic came and schooled the NBA playing as a Sub in 96), Fundamentals, B-Ball IQ, Winning was as Important and Sometimes more than the Money etc. All things that were a feutre of the nba in the 80s and 90s. People must learn to understand that. There are many people complaining about this not just me or some others in ISH but many...

Well, and players personalities also. I can't think of ONE NBA player that I truly truly root for despite being a basketball fan. I don't find Wade, LJ, Duncan and others to be very interesting.

[tontoz]

Gervin is just talking smack, but he could definitely average 30 today. It is easier to get to the rim/ft line now and the no hand check rule especially benefits someone who is skinny and can get pushed around.

I was pretty young when Gervin was playing but he was definitely a scoring machine.

[ihatetmac2524]

He could probably average around 30 ppg every night, but would his team be any good? This is just another reason why athletes in general are considered stupid.

[flu game]

ive never understood the handcheck rule in full. the rule is in the grey area alot of the time. i thought you could use an arm bar?? i see guys still doing it and not getting called for it. i do that and use my fingertips to keep my guy in check my my backs turned towards them, so is that a foul??

[Scott Pippen]

So you are saying the 80's and 90's were stop-start? Yes, because that would be interesting... :rolleyes:
You are contradicting your belief that 80's/90's were the better era if you disagree with that statement. There was more contact allowed which allowed for a more free flowing game. Where am I wrong in that?

never mind I misunderstand you:applause: