Olajuwon vs Kevin McHale 1986 NBA Finals

[Da_Realist]

1986 NBA Finals

Lost in the brilliance of Larry Bird was an interesting battle of two Hall Of Famers in the paint -- Kevin McHale and Hakeem Olajuwon. McHale, the resident king of footwork, mastered the drop-step, head fake and up-and-unders. Olajuwon, the young challenger, showed his promise on the biggest stage of all.

Hakeem, who would later master the fadeaway jumpshot and the Dreamshake (a series of quick fakes designed to keep his defender off-balance), was still a force here in 86. He was raw, but still deadly enough to force the Celtics to double and triple him consistently.

The battle down low between the master of footwork and his challenger was a nice subtext to this series.

Game 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1bZGZkcryY&p=F47B948B4763D400)

[Da_Realist]

Game 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4rcYQYhmpI&p=F47B948B4763D400)

[Scott Pippen]

very nice:applause:

[gotbacon23]

very even stat wise in the end in the series.
olajuwon: 24.7 ppg 11.8 rpg 1.8 apg 3.3 bpg
mchale: 25.8 ppg 8.5 rpg 1.7 apg 2.5 bpg

just by looking at the box scores, game 5 looks like it would have been a great battle between the two.

mchale 12/23 shooting 33 points 8 rebounds 1 ast 3 stl 2 blks
olajuwon 13/25 shooting 32 points 14 rebounds 3 ast 2 stl 8 blks

rockets won the game fairly easily though.

i bet olajuwon learned a lot of his moves from mchale in this series.

[allball]

for the most part Ralph and Jim Peterson guarded McHale. he destroyed them both especially in game 6. Ralph had like 5 fouls in 5 minutes (at least it seemed that way)

[Da_Realist]

for the most part Ralph and Jim Peterson guarded McHale. he destroyed them both especially in game 6. Ralph had like 5 fouls in 5 minutes (at least it seemed that way)

Understandable. Houston couldn't afford to lose Hakeem since he was their best weapon. It would have been nice to see how he would have fared defensively on McHale. Back then Hakeem would go for fakes trying to get blocks.

For what it's worth, McHale just destroyed Sampson this series.

[juju151111]

Understandable. Houston couldn't afford to lose Hakeem since he was their best weapon. It would have been nice to see how he would have fared defensively on McHale. Back then Hakeem would go for fakes trying to get blocks.

For what it's worth, McHale just destroyed Sampson this series.
Hakeem destroyed there whole team tho.

[Sir Charles]

Kevin McHale is the Most Skilled Low Post Player Ever. Nobody was as Creative and Elegant as McHale in the Post, Ever!

McHale is the Second Best Scoring PF ever after Charles Barkley

Hakeem also is in the Top as a Low Post Scorer. Althoug he did not have as many Post Moves as McHale but he had the "Fastest Footwork Ever" and the Agil SG like "Dream Shake" which was unstoppable

Two 80s Legends Right There :applause:

[TMac&Luther]

i bet olajuwon learned a lot of his moves from mchale in this series.

Hakeem learned his moves from C.D. (Carrol Dawson) who is a master at teaching post moves and footwork (same guy that helped teach Yao his post moves).

[Da_Realist]

Hakeem learned his moves from C.D. (Carrol Dawson) who is a master at teaching post moves and footwork (same guy that helped teach Yao his post moves).

I always heard Hakeem was taught how to play by Moses Malone. I think I saw Moses say that in an interview somewhere that he and Hakeem played in some well-known gym in Houston over the summers when Hakeem was still in college.

They must have seen some great potential in the guy because he didn't start playing basketball until he was well in his teens.

[Da_Realist]

Kevin McHale is the Most Skilled Low Post Player Ever. Nobody was as Creative and Elegant as McHale in the Post, Ever!

McHale is the Second Best Scoring PF ever after Charles Barkley

Hakeem also is in the Top as a Low Post Scorer. Althoug he did not have as many Post Moves as McHale but he had the "Fastest Footwork Ever" and the Agil SG like "Dream Shake" which was unstoppable

Two 80s Legends Right There :applause:

Better than Tim Duncan?

[Sir Charles]

Better than Tim Duncan?

A Better Scorer than Duncan and Skilles Post Player by Miles....:rolleyes:

[AItheAnswer3]

A Better Scorer than Duncan and Skilles Post Player by Miles....:rolleyes:

Duncan>Barkley

[allball]

Better than Tim Duncan?

In terms of overall post play, yes. he was also more accurate from mid-range and more creative. I love TD but for pure post play from below the elbow in, McHale was the man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlSZC4TAYVc

there are two eras in terms of big man post play. the era before McHale and the era after..

[TMac&Luther]

I always heard Hakeem was taught how to play by Moses Malone. I think I saw Moses say that in an interview somewhere that he and Hakeem played in some well-known gym in Houston over the summers when Hakeem was still in college.

They must have seen some great potential in the guy because he didn't start playing basketball until he was well in his teens.

He had legendary battles with Moses, and learned moves from him and Guy Lewis, but he learned his extensive post game and turned into the player we all remember under C.D.

[Sir Charles]

Duncan>Barkley

Shot Blocking and in the Rest Barkley Owns Duncan :pimp: :oldlol: :confusedshrug:

[TMac&Luther]

Duncan>Barkley

It's hard for me to compare eras........Barkley like other great players played in possibly the toughest era in basketball. I can't even say for sure that Duncan gets a ring if he played during that era.

Jordan's bulls had everything on lock down and when they didn't Hakeem just shyted on everybody else......Duncan would've just been another victim

[Sir Charles]

It's hard for me to compare eras........Barkley like other great players played in possibly the toughest era in basketball. I can't even say for sure that Duncan gets a ring if he played during that era.

Jordan's bulls had everything on lock down and when they didn't Hakeem just shyted on everybody else......Duncan would've just been another victim

You are forgeting Barkley played in the 80s...which wa tougher than the 90s era with the Bulls.

Lakers Show Time: Greatest Fast Paced Running Skilled Team Ever
Big 3 Celtics: Greatest Low Post Slow Paced Team Ever
The Bad Boys: Greatest All Around Defense (both Frontcourt and Frontline) Defensive Team Ever

[Da_Realist]

Game 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GilBUpdgMKo&p=F47B948B4763D400)

[loot]

Shot Blocking and in the Rest Barkley Owns Duncan :pimp: :oldlol: :confusedshrug:

How about championships? Defense? Duncan has the edge and it isn't slight. Don't get me wrong, Barkley was one of my favorite players. he was the one who got me into NBA basketball. But you can't deny Duncan.

BTW Sir Charles how do you feel about the 1987 playoffs? You know Erving's last postseason, the series against the Bucks? Quite a show by Barkley there. :oldlol:

[Sir Charles]

How about championships? Defense? Duncan has the edge and it isn't slight. Don't get me wrong, Barkley was one of my favorite players. he was the one who got me into NBA basketball. But you can't deny Duncan.

BTW Sir Charles how do you feel about the 1987 playoffs? You know Erving's last postseason, the series against the Bucks? Quite a show by Barkley there. :oldlol:


Championships are Team Oriented not single players oriented :rolleyes: and just to remined you: Barkley played with Real Competition not the Weak Shi-t that has Duncan played and in his Whole PRIME having Robinson, a Great Cast of Spurs, Ginobili in an Era where the Last Great NBA Legends where over 35 years old at best and at avg. Same with Garnett...Garnett has finally won his championship because he is sorrunded by Great Players for the 1st time in his ****en Career (thank god he is still somewhat prime at age 31 and not 34). Barkley had Great Players with him in his 1st two years in the league and last 3 when he couldn`t play anymore. Wrong Time Always and ofcourse played in a Superior More Competitive Era.

Barkley`s Floor Defense is Suerior to Duncan`s by miles. His Quickness and intuition for steals and Floor Game was the Best Ever Seen for a PF (same as Garnett`s and Malones Floor game is Way Superior to Duncan). Just like Hakeem`s had the Best Floor Defense Ever for a Center and Highest SPG Avg ever for a Center...Barkley was the Best Powerforward Floor Defender of All Time (also possesing the Highest SPG Avg ever for that spot)

So don`t give me this **** that Duncan was a way better Defender. Yes he is a better Interior Defender because he is actually a 6`11 1/2 Center that is adaptable to Forward just like Hakeemwas but with 1% of the talent, athletic abilities and offensive game, clutch game and greatness that Hakeem had. Other than that Barkley, is a Better and Way Better as a:

Scorer, Rebounder, Passer, Shooter, FT Shooter, 3-Point Shooter, Dribbler, Game Creator, Intimididating Player, Clutch Player etc etc

So if Duncan is Better in One thing than Barkley and Barkley is Better in THE REST OF ALL OTHER THINGS...and the fact that Duncan has ALWAYS HAD A GREAT CAST IN HIS PRIME and THOSE PLAYERS Still Capable of Playing PRIME...in WEAKER Era how does that give him the edoge over Charles?

And a crippled no backed Charles schooled Duncan at ages 34-36 while Duncan was 21-23 and already an All Star and Finals MVP!

Barkley > Duncan. Period

By the way the Bucks in the 80s was a Great Team and Barkley as 23 year old averaged 24.6 PPG (shot 57.3% frm the Total FG, around 63% 2-Point FG and over 24 PPG), 12.8 RPG, 2.4 APG, 1.6 BPG and 80% FT...Pretty good Stats in my opinion

[Psileas]

Among the all-time stars who are called underrated, there is a good number of fans who tend to overrate them. Pippen, for example, has been called "not a top-50 GOAT player", which underrates him. But, he's also been called "a top-2 player of the league in the mid-90's", which is a clear stretch.

With McHale, things are different. Maybe he's not really underrated, but he is underappreciated. For sure, he very rarely got overrated. Take the 1985 Finals, for example: Everyone expected (and got) another Magic vs Bird battle, but actually, the Finals' MVP was Kareem and the Celtics' MVP was McHale, who outscored, outshot and outrebounded Bird.
Look also at his 1987 numbers in general:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=mchalke01&year=1987
He scored 20+ in 35 of his first 36 games.
He never scored less than 15 points in the whole season.
He led the league in FG%, at 60.4.

Everyone remembers Bird's contributions to that team (I'm not saying they're wrong), but almost everyone forgets how vital McHale was that season, as well (and, as far as I remember, he played part of it, including the playoffs, injured).

His performance in the 1986 Finals was another highlight of his career, giving Houston's big guys fits in defense and offense. Obviously, Bird still was the MVP.

[Sir Charles]

Among the all-time stars who are called underrated, there is a good number of fans who tend to overrate them. Pippen, for example, has been called "not a top-50 GOAT player", which underrates him. But, he's also been called "a top-2 player of the league in the mid-90's", which is a clear stretch.

With McHale, things are different. Maybe he's not really underrated, but he is underappreciated. For sure, he very rarely got overrated. Take the 1985 Finals, for example: Everyone expected (and got) another Magic vs Bird battle, but actually, the Finals' MVP was Kareem and the Celtics' MVP was McHale, who outscored, outshot and outrebounded Bird.
Look also at his 1987 numbers in general:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=mchalke01&year=1987
He scored 20+ in 35 of his first 36 games.
He never scored less than 15 points in the whole season.
He led the league in FG%, at 60.4.

Everyone remembers Bird's contributions to that team (I'm not saying they're wrong), but almost everyone forgets how vital McHale was that season, as well (and, as far as I remember, he played part of it, including the playoffs, injured).

His performance in the 1986 Finals was another highlight of his career, giving Houston's big guys fits in defense and offense. Obviously, Bird still was the MVP.

Pippen was the Best SF after Bird left in the Early 90s till around 1995. Then it was Grant Hill. Pippen is not Overrated but actually Underrated

[Psileas]

Pippen was the Best SF after Bird left in the Early 90s till around 1995. Then it was Grant Hill. Pippen is not Overrated but actually Underrated

I didn't say he wasn't. I said that during that period, the best SF in the league wasn't a top-2 player overall.

[Sir Charles]

I didn't say he wasn't. I said that during that period, the best SF in the league wasn't a top-2 player overall.

True

[loot]

Championships are Team Oriented not single players oriented :rolleyes: and just to remined you: Barkley played with Real Competition not the Weak Shi-t that has Duncan played and in his Whole PRIME having Robinson, a Great Cast of Spurs, Ginobili in an Era where the Last Great NBA Legends where over 35 years old at best and at avg. Same with Garnett...Garnett has finally won his championship because he is sorrunded by Great Players for the 1st time in his ****en Career (thank god he is still somewhat prime at age 31 and not 34). Barkley had Great Players with him in his 1st two years in the league and last 3 when he couldn`t play anymore. Wrong Time Always and ofcourse played in a Superior More Competitive Era.

Barkley`s Floor Defense is Suerior to Duncan`s by miles. His Quickness and intuition for steals and Floor Game was the Best Ever Seen for a PF (same as Garnett`s and Malones Floor game is Way Superior to Duncan). Just like Hakeem`s had the Best Floor Defense Ever for a Center and Highest SPG Avg ever for a Center...Barkley was the Best Powerforward Floor Defender of All Time (also possesing the Highest SPG Avg ever for that spot)

So don`t give me this **** that Duncan was a way better Defender. Yes he is a better Interior Defender because he is actually a 6`11 1/2 Center that is adaptable to Forward just like Hakeemwas but with 1% of the talent, athletic abilities and offensive game, clutch game and greatness that Hakeem had. Other than that Barkley, is a Better and Way Better as a:

Scorer, Rebounder, Passer, Shooter, FT Shooter, 3-Point Shooter, Dribbler, Game Creator, Intimididating Player, Clutch Player etc etc

So if Duncan is Better in One thing than Barkley and Barkley is Better in THE REST OF ALL OTHER THINGS...and the fact that Duncan has ALWAYS HAD A GREAT CAST IN HIS PRIME and THOSE PLAYERS Still Capable of Playing PRIME...in WEAKER Era how does that give him the edoge over Charles?

And a crippled no backed Charles schooled Duncan at ages 34-36 while Duncan was 21-23 and already an All Star and Finals MVP!

Barkley > Duncan. Period

By the way the Bucks in the 80s was a Great Team and Barkley as 23 year old averaged 24.6 PPG (shot 57.3% frm the Total FG, around 63% 2-Point FG and over 24 PPG), 12.8 RPG, 2.4 APG, 1.6 BPG and 80% FT...Pretty good Stats in my opinion


IF Duncan played in a weak era, then his supporting cats is weak too.

And all that bla bla just goes to show you I hit the hail on it's head. Now you're going to overrated Barkley's defense. He was a poor defender. Could he defend well? Yes. Did he? No.


AND Barkley choked Julius Erving's last playoffs away, thank you. Pretty good stats by Barkley during the season yes, but he was not there when it counted.

[Da_Realist]

Among the all-time stars who are called underrated, there is a good number of fans who tend to overrate them. Pippen, for example, has been called "not a top-50 GOAT player", which underrates him. But, he's also been called "a top-2 player of the league in the mid-90's", which is a clear stretch.

With McHale, things are different. Maybe he's not really underrated, but he is underappreciated. For sure, he very rarely got overrated. Take the 1985 Finals, for example: Everyone expected (and got) another Magic vs Bird battle, but actually, the Finals' MVP was Kareem and the Celtics' MVP was McHale, who outscored, outshot and outrebounded Bird.


Had the Celtics won the 1985 Finals, McHale would have definitely been the Finals MVP.

He averaged 26 pts, 1.3 asts, 10.7 rebs, 1.8 stls, 1.8 blks on 60% fg. Those are MVP numbers.

[Niquesports]

Shot Blocking and in the Rest Barkley Owns Duncan :pimp: :oldlol: :confusedshrug:


As a PF Id take Duncan as a player ID take Barkely.Ducan almost always played in the post true to a PF game Barkley was on the post outside ran the floor he was more of a tweener.

[Sir Charles]

If Duncan played in a weak era, then his supporting cats is weak too.

And all that bla bla just goes to show you I hit the hail on it's head. Now you're going to overrated Barkley's defense. He was a poor defender. Could he defend well? Yes. Did he? No.

Weak era Compared to Barkley`s but that doesn`t make Duncan bad at all he is clearlu one of the Best PFs or actually CFs (because he plays like a Center) ever but he had MAJOR ALL HIS CAREER AND ALWAYS IN HIS PRIME and he did not battle the REAL NBA: BIG 3, THE SHOWTIME LAKERS, THE BADBOYS or MJ-Pippen in Their Primes Ever.

He could Defend Well against tall Stocky Players. I`ve seen Barkley guard Shaq when he was in Orlando and he forced Shaq out of the Paint the whole game. Barkley`s toughest players to Guard where the "tall ast silky players with skill" like McHale or when he was put to guard a "SF" that was obviously more skilled than your avg PF, thats when he had trouble.

Barkleys Floor Defense was inmense when PFs tried to dribble on to him (not SFs) he would steal it all the time, his capacity to reading the play (in Bird`s style was incredible) was the Greatest Ever for a PF, reason why he is the Greatest Stealing PF Ever. Ever!. He was also a Great Help Defender: Name me one *****in PF that had the Speed and Potence to Go back court and Block a quicker Gs Fast Break on daily? :confusedshrug:

Not to mention Barkley had Center instincts and new how to block shots away from his man do to great notion of that spot, timing and footwork. I`ve seen Barkely guard Parish and force him out the paint. Get Real Barkley was lazy in the season but when he was pissed he`d play grear Defense ofcourse he wasn`t the Best Shot Blocker because he was only 6`4/6`4 while Duncan is 6`11 1/2 ft but then again Duncan can`t do sh-it on the floor he can`t move worth sh-it as a Floor Defender like Barkley, Garnett or Malone.

AND Barkley choked Julius Erving's last playoffs away, thank you. Pretty good stats by Barkley during the season yes, but he was not there when it counted.

Barkley`s was not your focal scorer until 1986 and it was a 37 year old done Docs last year and one was suppose to respect that. By the way Charles would not choke against anyone his hero-like in 93 (1st player to interrumpt the Bird-Magic-MJ MVP era) a Team that had Pathetic Defenders and No Balls (everyone had the Rockets, Jazz and Sonics over his team) all the way to the finals.

And as this boradcaster said himself (see for yourself! i was witness to this)

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=rTJ4VSOJc9c&feature=related

Minutes 3.12-3.19

"In All The Years I Have Been Covering the NBA...I Have Never! Seen

..AN INDIVIDUAL PLAYER THAT... JUST WOULD NOT LET HIS TEAM LOOSE"....: :wtf:

(AND I WAS WITNESS TO THIS ****, I HAVE NEVER SEEN A SINGLE PLAYER DO THAT, EVER, NEVER SEEN MORE OF A WARRIOR IN THE NBA, NEVER SEEN A PLAYER THAT COULD PUT THAT MUCH FEAR INTO THE EYES OF HIS OPPONENT AT WHOLE COURT THAN BARKLEY AND TAKE A GAME OVER TOTALLY, EVER!)

1993 W. Semi FinalsConference Finals:

Guarded By Defensive Player of the Year 7`1 center David Robinson = OWNED!

1993 W. Finals Game 7 against the Sonics (the Best Defensive Team in the West):

44 Points, 24 Rebounds while Guarded by Perkins, Kemp and constantly doubled and tripled teamed by Perimter Players.

Yeah Major Choke!!!

:violin:

[SCREWstonRockets]

22 (like the Rockets winning streak) years later and these teams will meet in the Finals once again. Instead of Dream vs McHale, it will be Yao vs KG. T-mac and PP will be the centerpiece of their teams respectively.

[Da_Realist]

Game 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kak2jzf9uQc&p=F47B948B4763D400)

[Da_Realist]

Game 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPOT-liQ25o&p=F47B948B4763D400)

[Da_Realist]

Game 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE-E9q5nnf0&p=F47B948B4763D400)

[Yung D-Will]

Rape.

Mchale has the best post moves in Nba history. No disrespect to Hakeem.

[Da_Realist]

Rape.

Mchale has the best post moves in Nba history. No disrespect to Hakeem.

Hakeem was a beast. Even in 86. Only looking at offensive skill? Man, I don't know... That's an interesting question.

[AirJordan23]

Rape.

Mchale has the best post moves in Nba history. No disrespect to Hakeem.
are you basing it on the 1986 finals only? if so, thats a fallace way of judging them as hakeem wasn't close to being as skilled as he was later on.

[Yung D-Will]

are you basing it on the 1986 finals only? if so, thats a fallace way of judging them as hakeem wasn't close to being as skilled as he was later on.

Nah not only on the 86 finals. Footage I've seen of Mchale and the games I've seen of Hakeem.

[Da_Realist]

^^ I updated the links to the videos. For some reason they were broken before.

[elementally morale]

Wow. I almost forgot how good basketball was back then. Slightly less strength, a lot more running, less 3 pointers taken, lots and lots of outlet passes and quick possessions.

As for the two of them, Hakeem learned many of his post moves from McHale after these finals. In the end, hakeem surpassed his master on offense, too. As for post game, I'd take McHale for the low post and Hakeem from the high post and everywhere else. Not to speak of defense which Hakeem was easily the better at. (McHale was tough though. A lot tougher than one could have guessed at first sight.)

I think if there had never been a Larry Bird, Kevin McHale could and would have become a franchise player. He did not lack the talent to be that.

[kizut1659]

Wow. I almost forgot how good basketball was back then. Slightly less strength, a lot more running, less 3 pointers taken, lots and lots of outlet passes and quick possessions.

As for the two of them, Hakeem learned many of his post moves from McHale after these finals. In the end, hakeem surpassed his master on offense, too. As for post game, I'd take McHale for the low post and Hakeem from the high post and everywhere else. Not to speak of defense which Hakeem was easily the better at. (McHale was tough though. A lot tougher than one could have guessed at first sight.)

I think if there had never been a Larry Bird, Kevin McHale could and would have become a franchise player. He did not lack the talent to be that.

I never understood why McHale was not given more shot attempts. There are some indications that him and Bird did not get along, which is why maybe McHale was held back. For example, Boston could have feasibly won in 1988 against Pistons if McHale, who was shooting over 60% compared to Bird's 34%in the series, would have been made the focal point of offense.

[elementally morale]

I never understood why McHale was not given more shot attempts. There are some indications that him and Bird did not get along, which is why maybe McHale was held back.

I never saw, read or heard anything about it. What do you base it on? Is it just a wild guess? (No problem if so, I'm just curious.)



For example, Boston could have feasibly won in 1988 against Pistons if McHale, who was shooting over 60% compared to Bird's 34%in the series, would have been made the focal point of offense.

Almost the same thing as Lakers vs. Pistons in 2004. Bird was meant to be the clutch player and the go-to player when the wheels started to go off. He didn't succeed that one time. McHale could have scored a lot more, I agree. Not only in that series but in general. I'm not sure if the Celtics would have become a better team by McHale scoring more though.

[1987_Lakers]

McHale the very next year averaged 26 PPG on 60 FG%, that should tell you how deadly he was in the low post. McHale actually almost had the same amount of MVP votes as Bird that year.

[Gotterdammerung]

Actually there was some undercurrent friction between McHale and Bird. Bird thought McHale did not take the game seriously, was way too laidback for his own good. Had McHale worked on his game 24/7, and during the off season, worked on his body, then he would be even greater than he was. I'm sure McHale thought Bird was too serious or something of that sort. But they made it work.

Also, I think McHale's foot was injured in 1987, and then he wasn't the same after he played on it in 1988.

Thanks for the youtube links. I appreciate the trip down memory lane. I posted a comment in the 1st game, that you can see Hakeem's game in its early stages: the baby hook, the turnaround fall away, and the semi-dream shake.

[DatWasNashty]

For people who've seen prime McHale play (only saw the watered down version post-1990), how much of his efficiency do you think is a result of playing next to Bird? The year Bird went down, Kevin's FG% plummeted from 60.4 to 54.6. He seemed to have missed a few games in the prior season which indicates injury issues but such a dramatic drop off does imply that he wouldn't have been able to put up that type of efficiency as the team's primary option.

His post-game does look killer, though. He seems to have textbook moves; tremendous use of head and shoulder fakes, terrific up-and-under, deadly dropstep towards the baseline and that huge ass wingspan sure helped him to get easier shots off. He also seems to have a nice turnaround fadeaway over either shoulder and decent ability to hit those twisting, off-balance shots. What impressed me the most was his ability to counter to how the defense reacted. Definitely regret missing out on his best years.

[elementally morale]

I think McHale would have become a slightly better player without Bird and Parish a slightly worse player. McHale's efficiency didn't have that much to do with Bird's passing. Kevin would have had same game with almost any perimeter player. Some passes would have been missing, but he would have more than made up for that with his more important role on the team.

I think McHale was a good competitor in his own right, he seemed laid-back only because Bird and Ainge were on that team, LOL.

[DatWasNashty]

I think McHale would have become a slightly better player without Bird and Parish a slightly worse player. McHale's efficiency didn't have that much to do with Bird's passing. Kevin would have had same game with almost any perimeter player. Some passes would have been missing, but he would have more than made up for that with his more important role on the team.

I think McHale was a good competitor in his own right, he seemed laid-back only because Bird and Ainge were on that team, LOL.
Well, maybe Bird didn't directly impact his game but with Bird garnering all the defensive attention, it probably gave McHale more room to work with and a lesser amount of double teams. Would you agree?

[kizut1659]

I never saw, read or heard anything about it. What do you base it on? Is it just a wild guess? (No problem if so, I'm just curious.)

Almost the same thing as Lakers vs. Pistons in 2004. Bird was meant to be the clutch player and the go-to player when the wheels started to go off. He didn't succeed that one time. McHale could have scored a lot more, I agree. Not only in that series but in general. I'm not sure if the Celtics would have become a better team by McHale scoring more though.

http://www.celticsblog.com/2007/7/17/201253/559
Bill Simmons' book
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150484&page=2

I think Celtics would be a better team by McHale scoring more from 1987 through 1991. McHale's FG% was significantly higher and after 1988, Bird clearly lost the athleticism to take over games by himself.

[kizut1659]

Well, maybe Bird didn't directly impact his game but with Bird garnering all the defensive attention, it probably gave McHale more room to work with and a lesser amount of double teams. Would you agree?

Not really, if you look at game-to-game stats for 1991 and even 1992 - McHale averaged more points on the same FG% when Bird was out.

[kizut1659]

For people who've seen prime McHale play (only saw the watered down version post-1990), how much of his efficiency do you think is a result of playing next to Bird? The year Bird went down, Kevin's FG% plummeted from 60.4 to 54.6. He seemed to have missed a few games in the prior season which indicates injury issues but such a dramatic drop off does imply that he wouldn't have been able to put up that type of efficiency as the team's primary option.

His post-game does look killer, though. He seems to have textbook moves; tremendous use of head and shoulder fakes, terrific up-and-under, deadly dropstep towards the baseline and that huge ass wingspan sure helped him to get easier shots off. He also seems to have a nice turnaround fadeaway over either shoulder and decent ability to hit those twisting, off-balance shots. What impressed me the most was his ability to counter to how the defense reacted. Definitely regret missing out on his best years.

"Plummeted to 54.6" - thats still higher FG% than Bird ever had. Yeah, just like any post player McHale needed someone to get him the ball, but he did not need passing by Bird in particular - any decent point guard or point forward would do.

[elementally morale]

Well, maybe Bird didn't directly impact his game but with Bird garnering all the defensive attention, it probably gave McHale more room to work with and a lesser amount of double teams. Would you agree?

Perhaps. I would have to watch some of those games again to have better judgement. I don't want to make an as* of myself by stating the first thing that comes to my mind. :oldlol:

[Big#50]

Championships are Team Oriented not single players oriented :rolleyes: and just to remined you: Barkley played with Real Competition not the Weak Shi-t that has Duncan played and in his Whole PRIME having Robinson, a Great Cast of Spurs, Ginobili in an Era where the Last Great NBA Legends where over 35 years old at best and at avg. Same with Garnett...Garnett has finally won his championship because he is sorrunded by Great Players for the 1st time in his ****en Career (thank god he is still somewhat prime at age 31 and not 34). Barkley had Great Players with him in his 1st two years in the league and last 3 when he couldn`t play anymore. Wrong Time Always and ofcourse played in a Superior More Competitive Era.

Barkley`s Floor Defense is Suerior to Duncan`s by miles. His Quickness and intuition for steals and Floor Game was the Best Ever Seen for a PF (same as Garnett`s and Malones Floor game is Way Superior to Duncan). Just like Hakeem`s had the Best Floor Defense Ever for a Center and Highest SPG Avg ever for a Center...Barkley was the Best Powerforward Floor Defender of All Time (also possesing the Highest SPG Avg ever for that spot)

So don`t give me this **** that Duncan was a way better Defender. Yes he is a better Interior Defender because he is actually a 6`11 1/2 Center that is adaptable to Forward just like Hakeemwas but with 1% of the talent, athletic abilities and offensive game, clutch game and greatness that Hakeem had. Other than that Barkley, is a Better and Way Better as a:

Scorer, Rebounder, Passer, Shooter, FT Shooter, 3-Point Shooter, Dribbler, Game Creator, Intimididating Player, Clutch Player etc etc

So if Duncan is Better in One thing than Barkley and Barkley is Better in THE REST OF ALL OTHER THINGS...and the fact that Duncan has ALWAYS HAD A GREAT CAST IN HIS PRIME and THOSE PLAYERS Still Capable of Playing PRIME...in WEAKER Era how does that give him the edoge over Charles?

And a crippled no backed Charles schooled Duncan at ages 34-36 while Duncan was 21-23 and already an All Star and Finals MVP!

Barkley > Duncan. Period

By the way the Bucks in the 80s was a Great Team and Barkley as 23 year old averaged 24.6 PPG (shot 57.3% frm the Total FG, around 63% 2-Point FG and over 24 PPG), 12.8 RPG, 2.4 APG, 1.6 BPG and 80% FT...Pretty good Stats in my opinion
Barkley played decent defense at times. His strong body let him block a lot of dunks early in his career. But he isnt half as good as Tim is on D. Tim was a master at guarding the P&R. Duncan has 1% of the greatness and clutchness of Hakeem? Tim was more clutch. Near quad double in a finals game. Duncan is a top ten player. Barkley is top 25. As great as Hakeem was he would get into foul trouble a lot.

[Round Mound]

Barkley played decent defense at times. His strong body let him block a lot of dunks early in his career. But he isnt half as good as Tim is on D. Tim was a master at guarding the P&R. Duncan has 1% of the greatness and clutchness of Hakeem? Tim was more clutch. Near quad double in a finals game. Duncan is a top ten player. Barkley is top 25. As great as Hakeem was he would get into foul trouble a lot.

Barkley is a Top 10 Player: EFF, PER and +/- Show he Is...Real Impact Shows he is.

Duncan was a Better Shot Blocker and Man to Man Defender but Barkley was a Better Everything else including Floor Defense

[Big#50]

Barkley is a Top 10 Player: EFF, PER and +/- Show he Is...Real Impact Shows he is.

Duncan was a Better Shot Blocker and Man to Man Defender but Barkley was a Better Everything else including Floor Defense
Same Barkley that said he never played defense? Steals do not equal good defense.

[Andrei89]

Duncan > Barkely

[Round Mound]

Same Barkley that said he never played defense? Steals do not equal good defense.

He said he was lazy but he would when he wanted to. When he had a decent center in his prime he was top 7 in DRT.

If steals aren`t defense (cause of bad passing desicions) then blocks aren`t either (bad shootin desicions, forcing).

Barkley was way better offensively then Duncan too.

[Big#50]

He said he was lazy but he would when he wanted to. When he had a decent center in his prime he was top 7 in DRT.

If steals aren`t defense (cause of bad passing desicions) then blocks aren`t either (bad shootin desicions, forcing).

Barkley was way better offensively then Duncan too.
Way better? How was he way better? Half the ****ing league shot over 50 percent when Barkley was shooting 60 percent. Duncan was way better at passing from the double team and passing in general. Duncan had a diverse arsenal of post moves and counters. Barkley could only back in because of his size. Barkley had a better mid range game and was better at running the floor. How was he way better? Barkley is nowhere near Duncan on defense. Not even ****in close. While they are pretty even on the offensive side. Just because Tim did not have eye popping scoring numbers doesnt mean he was not a great offensive player. He scored at will when he needed to. It had more to do with the style and system he played in.
Barkley is a top 25 player of all time and one of my favorites, but not on Tim Duncan's level.

[Yung D-Will]

Obviously Duncan's is considered better then Barkley and rightfully so.

However I have Barkley above Malone and Garnett

[Round Mound]

[QUOTE=Big#50]

Way better? How was he way better? Half the ****ing league shot over 50 percent when Barkley was shooting 60 percent.

Barkley shot 60% one season including 3-Pointers

Exclude 3 Pointers:

His Career Season 2-Point FG is 58.13% for 21.6 PPG on 12.9 Two-Point FGAs PG
His Career Play-Off 2-Point FG is 55.13% for 22.5 PPG on 14.5 Two-Point FGAs PG.


Duncan was way better at passing from the double team and passing in general.

:facepalm

Duncan wasn`t even close to the Passer, Creator or Passer of double teams than Barkley was just watch mi vids.

Barkley was doubled 12-15 ft away from the rim sometimes before he even got the ball and he still was unstoppable for both PFs or SFs guarding him.

Duncan had a diverse arsenal of post moves and counters. Barkley could only back in because of his size. Barkley had a better mid range game and was better at running the floor.

Barkley`s Post Moves where also foor work, spins and fadeways. You know crap about Barkley.

Barkley had a Better Everything than Duncan offensively.

How was he way better? Barkley is nowhere near Duncan on defense. Not even ****in close.

Barkley`s Floor Defense, Anticipation and Stealin was Superior to Duncan`s

So was Malone`s.

While they are pretty even on the offensive side. Just because Tim did not have eye popping scoring numbers doesnt mean he was not a great offensive player. He scored at will when he needed to. It had more to do with the style and system he played in.

He was good but not Great like Barkley

Barkley is one of the GOAT Offensive Playres:

http://www.rootzoo.com/articles/view/NBA-Basketball/General/UBJSC-4-A-Basketball-Analytics-Primer_3549

Putting it together: Offensive Rating. By now, you're probably impatient for a number that tells us how efficient a player is overall with the possessions that he uses, and the answer comes in the form of Dean Oliver's Offensive Rating (OR). The formula is a bit complicated to reproduce here (I refer you to Oliver's excellent Basketball on Paper for its full derivation), but it suffices to say that Offensive Rating provides a rating of how many points a player scores per 100 possessions that he uses while on the floor. The league's typical rating has varied throughout history, but today stands at around 107.

The best OR belong to jump-shooting guards and, to a lesser extent, high-percentage post players. The career leaders are Steve Kerr (122.06), Reggie Miller (121.48), Magic Johnson (120.79), John Stockton (120.55), and Kiki Vandeweghe (119.49).


In general, the more possessions that a player uses, the lower we expect his OR to be, because player who use more possessions have to use more possessions in precarious situations.

If a player has a high career Usage Rate and a high OR, that indicates that he is a monster on offense. Magic Johnson falls into this category, as does Charles Barkley (119.31), Adran Dantley (118.40), the incomparable Michael Jordan (who, with the highest career Usage Rate, had a career OR of 117.97, the 13th best in history), and Dirk Nowitzki (117.80).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating


NBA/ABA
Rank Player ORtg

1. Steve Kerr 122.06 (CG)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Chris Paul 120.54 (PG)
6. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
7. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
8. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)

More Polished? :oldlol:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for True Shooting Pct


NBA/ABA
Rank Player TS%
1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. James Donaldson .6177
4. Adrian Dantley* .6166
5. Jeff Ruland .6152
6. Reggie Miller .6139
7. Charles Barkley* .6120
8. Magic Johnson* .6095
9. John Stockton* .6081

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/efg_pct_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Effective Field Goal Pct

NBA/ABA
Rank Player eFG%

1. Artis Gilmore .5820
2. Shaquille O'Neal .5818
3. Mark West .5804
4. Steve Johnson .5722
5. Darryl Dawkins .5721
6. James Donaldson .5706
7. Brent Barry .5703
8. Dwight Howard .5679
9. Bo Outlaw .5678
10. Steve Kerr .5642
11. Jeff Ruland .5641
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .5595
13. Bobby Jones .5583
14. Charles Barkley* .5578
15. Kevin McHale* .5554

Barkley is a top 25 player of all time and one of my favorites, but not on Tim Duncan's level

:no: :facepalm

All Broken Down Stats of Impact and Efficiency Suggest he is Top 10

He is Top 5-10 All Time In EFF, PER and +/-

Barkley was considered Top 2 from 87-93 and top Top 3 from 93-95

*IN MJ`s Era = Superior than Today:

http://storage.people.com/jpgs/19931025/19931025-750-78.jpg

[CF#8RR#9]

IF Duncan played in a weak era, then his supporting cats is weak too.

And all that bla bla just goes to show you I hit the hail on it's head. Now you're going to overrated Barkley's defense. He was a poor defender. Could he defend well? Yes. Did he? No.


AND Barkley choked Julius Erving's last playoffs away, thank you. Pretty good stats by Barkley during the season yes, but he was not there when it counted.

Damn you didnt watch the 93 finals then he was the only reason the Suns won 2 games. He averaged 30 ppg and god knows how many rebounds and assists. He was a major clutch factor in those games. The suns had that series but Jordan was a beast and averaged 41 ppg and paxson hit that game winning shot in game 6.

[KnicksWolves]

In a desperate 5 year bump, I'd like to know if anyone has any of these videos somewhere? I remember thoroughly enjoying these McHale vs Olajuwon '86 Finals compilations, but the youtube videos have since been taken down due to copyright. It's a damn shame because there were some real gems in here, and not just pertaining to the post moves from both men, but it was a good display of defensive prowess from McHale and Olajuwon as well.

[1987_Lakers]

In a desperate 5 year bump, I'd like to know if anyone has any of these videos somewhere? I remember thoroughly enjoying these McHale vs Olajuwon '86 Finals compilations, but the youtube videos have since been taken down due to copyright. It's a damn shame because there were some real gems in here, and not just pertaining to the post moves from both men, but it was a good display of defensive prowess from McHale and Olajuwon as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIkbBGf7A_s

just youtube 1986 nba finals.

They have full games of the series.

[KnicksWolves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIkbBGf7A_s

just youtube 1986 nba finals.

They have full games of the series.

Yeah, but being able to watch McHale and Olajuwon's highlights condensed is a lot more time efficient.

That being said, I've seen these games in full and it is indeed an enjoyable viewing. A must watch for fans of basketball :rockon:

[FultzNationRISE]

Just watched the full series. You can definitely see Lebron's influence on both of them. :applause:

[3ball]

olajuwon: 24.7 ppg 11.8 rpg 1.8 apg 3.3 bpg
mchale: 25.8 ppg 8.5 rpg 1.7 apg 2.5 bpg

mchale 12/23 shooting 33 points 8 rebounds 1 ast 3 stl 2 blks
olajuwon 13/25 shooting 32 points 14 rebounds 3 ast 2 stl 8 blks

i bet olajuwon learned a lot of his moves from mchale in this series.





McHale was an equal-partner to Bird in the 86' Playoffs.

McHale gave Hakeem a basketball lesson, while Pippen was destroyed by Ewing in 94'.

Pippen was barely top 50 in 1996 and dozens of new guys have passed him since then, so he can't be top 30 today.

It's an obvious mis-ranking caused by the on-paper evaluations of new fans/media who overrate Pippen's 6 rings compared to Giannis or Ewing's 0... He gets credit for rings like he's a 1st option because people are evaluating him on paper - it's similar to Klay getting ranked over Giannis due to rings - Pippen gets treated like this.