Larry Bird discussion

[Da_Realist]

Undeniably the best player in the game and arguably playing the best ball in his career, Larry Bird led one of the best teams in history to the championship in 1986. Known as a big game player with the ability to rise in the clutch, he also displayed a versatility that few others could match. His sharp shooting, pin-point passing, court sense, hustle and grit were all on display here in the 1986 Finals -- evidenced by the fact that he almost averaged a triple-double in this six-game series (24pts, 9.5 asts, 9.7 rebs).

Game 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RZojveJhJ8&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=0)

[ronnymac]

Larry Bird=the most clutch assasin of alltime. he and jordan must have destroyed so many dreams around the league.unfortunatley rockets were one of them.

[Samurai Swoosh]

That man was a friggin monster. And he had SO MUCH swag, it's hilarious. A country white boy, from the 70's / 80's who had SWAG and confidence that he could toy with you and knew he was gonna kill you. Gotta love it. He just knew how to beat people plain and simple on the basketball court. Shame his career didn't last longer. Cut short due to neck and back injuries. With that said he certainly got alot of mileage considering how many times he went deep into the playoffs.

[BIZARRO]

Undeniably the best player in the game and arguably playing the best ball in his career, Larry Bird led one of the best teams in history to the championship in 1986. Known as a big game player with the ability to rise in the clutch, he also displayed a versatility that few others could match. His sharp shooting, pin-point passing, court sense, hustle and grit were all on display here in the 1986 Finals -- evidenced by the fact that he almost averaged a triple-double in this six-game series (24pts, 9.5 asts, 9.7 rebs).

Game 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN8MaDwgroo)


Thanks, that was awesome. :applause:

Before I was a Jordan fan, I was a huge Bird fan. This brought back a lot of good memories. I remember thinking how I was kind of upset the Rockets made it instead of the Lakers that year because I knew the Celtics had the Lakers beat. They were just so dominant in '86. I know that is stating the obvious, but if you actually didn't see it, then here is more confirmation.
Would've been a good rubber match after the previous two years though. Too bad that came the next year with the spectacular and equally, if not more so, dominant '87 Lakers. Bad news for the Celts and Larry of course, and almost the end of the road as Larry broke down soon after.

Watching this game I was struck by two things:

1. Just how often Bird attacked the player with the ball on the defensive end, and how he always seemed to be in the right place at the right time on D. He stripping, stealing, breaking things up left and right. I always remembered him playing his own idea of defensive basketball and not bending mentally to usual defensive positions and practices like almost every other defensive player I have seen, and he was seemingly everywhere without getting called for anything. He seemed to get his nose dirty in so many defensive possessions and I think that has always been an underrated part of why his teams always were the best in college and the pros. And a big part of why his overall impact on a game is so much greater than, arguably, all but a few players.

2. Just how quick he was to get the ball in the hands of the player on his team in the best position to score. I mean, who thinks to throw the ball full court without seemingly even looking up the court, AT ALL? That extra split second of awareness was a huge thing that made Bird so great, kind of like Wayne Gretzky in hockey. Their minds were often faster than the game itself. Magic, same thing. Once again, seems obvious, but to see it is to truly believe. Every position, his idea was to get it into the Chief or Mchale, or to whoever any way he could as often and varied as possible. It was just demoralizing to the other team as shown in this vid by some of the Rocket's reactions.

We sometimes forget in this era of high flying players that in basketball SO much time is spent in half court sets; moving without the ball, finding the open man, getting the ball to him quickly and in the right place to score as easily as possible.
In the 5 on 5 NBA game, half court "winning" basketball relies mostly on these things, and often negates a lot of what athleticism could hypothetically bring to the table. (That being said athleticism can elevate "winning basketball" i.e. MJ, but Bird had enough to get by in almost any situation in a 5 on 5 game)
Watching this, I am now convinced a Kobe and Lebron, etc. would beat Bird and any player other than MJ, (and maybe even Bird and him as well in a 2 on 2 game), but I am also convinced watching this he was a better "winning" player than either in a 5 on 5 game. He just was like a chess master, who had one objective of making every move pertient to winning and the final score.
Lebron may get there, but Larry Legend was just such a great example of what makes "team" sports so great. He was able to use the other 4 players (and 9 really) like pieces on his chessboard regardless of physical limitations, though his physical limitations were not as limited as some think. His ability to sneak in passing lanes, box out, etc. almost made up for whatever limitations there were though.

I loved watching him (and Magic) then, and now, as their games are so rich and full of life. But for different reasons than why almost all other players are fun to watch.

Larry Legend was a true master of the game. What an incredible figure in basketball history.

#33. :bowdown:

[Da_Realist]

...

GREAT description of Larry's game. Repped. :applause:

[RajonKGcelts]

If Larry was black, he would be the GOAT hands down.

[Loki]

My second favorite player of all time. A killer. People who didn't see him have no idea how good this guy was. It's a travesty when people start mentioning guys like Dirk in the same sentence. Bird was one of the only guys in history who could drop 35/15/13 plus the game-winner and you wouldn't be surprised. Complete bad-ass.

[Brunch@Five]

My second favorite player of all time. A killer. People who didn't see him have no idea how good this guy was. It's a travesty when people start mentioning guys like Dirk in the same sentence. Bird was one of the only guys in history who could drop 35/15/13 plus the game-winner and you wouldn't be surprised. Complete bad-ass.

While not as good as Bird, I still think Dirk is the closest to Bird we have right now. That's not saying he is very close to Bird, it just means that Bird really was that special that he really he almost incomparable. The smartest and maybe the most well-rounded player ever. Nothing he couldn't do on the court. And before someone says "wasn't athletic enough to be a great fast-break player", just take a look at Josh Howard and other athletic players in the league, and then watch some Boston games from the 80's. Bird just knew how to run a break, when to pass, when to fake, and also was great at starting a break.

[Da_Realist]

Game 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDj0SiOdoxw&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=1)

[eliteballer]

People who didn't see him have no idea how good this guy was.

Like you?

[miles berg]

My second favorite player of all time. A killer. People who didn't see him have no idea how good this guy was. It's a travesty when people start mentioning guys like Dirk in the same sentence. Bird was one of the only guys in history who could drop 35/15/13 plus the game-winner and you wouldn't be surprised. Complete bad-ass.

Nah, Dirk is right there, he is so underrated by today's fans it is almost comical. As for Bird, ABSOLUTE killer, 4th best player of all time IMO (Jabbar/Jordan/Magic/Bird). And, IMO, the '86 Celtics team was the best team of all time. '87 Lakers, '91 and '96 Bulls, and '00 Lakers fans are going to argue but, again, it is my opinion.

[Loki]

Like you?

I actually knew when I posted that that you'd chime in with such a comment. I expected it yesterday, though -- you're getting old, eliteballer. :oldlol: And no, I meant people who haven't even seen any games of his, not necessarily people who didn't see it live.


Nah, Dirk is right there

No, he's not. Not at all. He's definitely underrated, but he can't see Bird.


Game 2

:oldlol:

Unbelievable. Look at the fake and pass at 3:46. :oldlol: Bird wasn't a tremendous athlete, but his hand-eye coordination was elite and his general quickness (on foot fakes, ball fakes, hand-speed, first step etc.) was very good.

[TmacsRockets]

How close or far apart would Lebron, CP3, Duncan be in comparison to Bird?

[worldbefree]

How close or far apart would Lebron, CP3, Duncan be in comparison to Bird?

assuming he is physically on par with current times, then he would be better than all in my humble opinion.

[Loki]

Yes, he would be imo. With Kobe/Lebron not far behind, but clearly behind.

[picc84]

How close or far apart would Lebron, CP3, Duncan be in comparison to Bird?

No Tmac? :confusedshrug:

[TmacsRockets]

No Tmac? :confusedshrug:

You actually believe I am a T-mac fan?

:pimp:

[GOBB]

Bird today

NBA comparison: Mike Dunleavy Jr

[inclinerator]

no way. He would get in a fight today because he talks way to much trash and someone would break his bones and he'd have a career ending injury. Nah but really he probably be unstoppable on offense, while being a 2nd defense defender. basically a better dirk that can drive and post

[ConanRulesNBC]

Yes he would.

[big baller]

back then they sere slower than now-n-day's......Kobe would own him, imo.....this is a very tought era, he played in an era which was easier.....altho, he still had to go threw lakers/76ers/pistons......

[Sir Charles]

[B]Yes :rolleyes:

-With Todays No Handchecking allowed it would Easy for him to get his Fadeway Shots Off as Post Up Shooter All Day Long...

-Same would go with his 3-Point FG%, It would be Easier to Get his 3pointers...Can you Imagine No Handchecking on Bird in his 3-Point Attempts? It would be laughable :rolleyes:

-With Todays Zone Defenses he would be benefied even more Locating him self with The Greatest Full Court and Defensive Court Awaeness of All Time to Anticipate for Steals etc making his SPG Avg Rise.

-His Passing and APG Avg would raise to about 8-9 APG with Ease benefiting with the actual [COLOR="blue"] Away Man Defense and Zone Defense there is Today (

[inclinerator]

Yes :rolleyes:

-With Todays No Handchecking Allowed it would easy for him to get his Fadeway Shots Off as Post Up Shooter All Day Long...

-With Todays Zone Defenses he would benefit even Locating him self with The Greatest Full Court and Defensive Court Awaeness of All Time to anticipate for Steals etc making his SPG Avg Rise

-His Passing Assist Avg would raise to about 8-9 APG with ease with Away Man Defense there is Today

-His Rebounding would be around the same 10 RPG, excpet he would be around 240 lbs with todays weight lifting programs.

A 6`9 1/ 2 ft 240 lbs SF that can Shoot like the Best SGs, Post Up and Rebound like a Powerforward, Think and Pass like a PG and Was the Clutchest Player Ever (no hating on West and Jordan but Bird had the edge there)

Also..

*In todays Slow Paced Game "Bird Thinking and Way Of Playing" would have more impact than 80s Faster Pace (when Players knew how to movel with or without the ball and where quicker at average, weighed less etc).

*The League would be Slowly Falling to "The Bird Trap" easier than Before :pimp: :oldlol:

Expect these stats for 8-10 seasons:

28-32 PPG (50-54% FG), 10-12 RGP; 8-9 APG, 90% FT, 40% 3-Point, 2-3 SPG

*That ofcourse if he plays in the West if he plays in the East expect a rise for 8-10 Season on those Stats
shut up bish thats like saying nash would be 150 lbs in the old days

[worldbefree]

Yes :rolleyes:

-With Todays No Handchecking Allowed it would easy for him to get his Fadeway Shots Off as Post Up Shooter All Day Long...

-With Todays Zone Defenses he would benefit even Locating him self with The Greatest Full Court and Defensive Court Awaeness of All Time to anticipate for Steals etc making his SPG Avg Rise

-His Passing Assist Avg would raise to about 8-9 APG with ease with Away Man Defense there is Today

-His Rebounding would be around the same 10 RPG, excpet he would be around 240 lbs with todays weight lifting programs.

A 6`9 1/ 2 ft 240 lbs SF that can Shoot like the Best SGs, Post Up and Rebound like a Powerforward, Think and Pass like a PG and Was the Clutchest Player Ever (no hating on West and Jordan but Bird had the edge there)

Also..

*In todays Slow Paced Game "Bird Thinking and Way Of Playing" would have more impact than 80s Faster Pace (when Players knew how to movel with or without the ball and where quicker at average, weighed less etc).

*The League would be Slowly Falling to "The Bird Trap" easier than Before :pimp: :oldlol:

Expect these stats for 8-10 seasons:

28-32 PPG (50-54% FG), 10-12 RGP; 8-9 APG, 90% FT, 40% 3-Point, 2-3 SPG

*That ofcourse if he plays in the West if he plays in the East expect a rise for 8-10 Season on those Stats

you are the most annoying poster on ISH and you don't make any sense you idiot.

[picc84]

You actually believe I am a T-mac fan?

:pimp:

I guess the tmac in the name, avatar, and all the posts about him threw me off. :ohwell:

[Jordandunk23]

IMO, if his body was up to par as the players in the league in terms of speed and quickness (not like he was the fastest player in his era), he would still be a top player... best? i would say one of the best. he would still score...

[stephanieg]

Bird? Looks like a white stiff to me. What's his vert? I bet he can't even do a windmill slam. He'd probably be a really good D-league player though.

[big baller]

Bird? Looks like a white stiff to me. What's his vert? I bet he can't even do a windmill slam. He'd probably be a really good D-league player though.

i agree with that, but.....he is one of the 6 best ever to play the game....

[Sir Charles]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Yes :rolleyes:

-With Todays No Handchecking allowed it would Easy for him to get his Fadeway Shots Off as Post Up Shooter All Day Long...

-Same would go with his 3-Point FG%, It would be Easier to Get his 3pointers...Can you Imagine No Handchecking on Bird in his 3-Point Attempts? It would be laughable :rolleyes:

-With Todays Zone Defenses he would be benefied even more Locating him self with The Greatest Full Court and Defensive Court Awaeness of All Time to Anticipate for Steals etc making his SPG Avg Rise.

-His Passing and APG Avg would raise to about 8-9 APG with Ease benefiting with the actual [COLOR="blue"] Away Man Defense and Zone Defense there is Today (

[AirGauge23]

Bird? Looks like a white stiff to me. What's his vert? I bet he can't even do a windmill slam. He'd probably be a really good D-league player though.

http://www.nfhell.com/images/frustration.jpg

[Scott Pippen]

absolutely

[Sir Charles]

For all You Idiots Underrating Bird go Check This Whole Game Out Part 1-6

Game 2, 1986 NBA Finals

Part 1

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=WKA5wjiI37Q

:banghead: :hammerhead:

[steve]

i agree with that, but.....he is one of the 6 best ever to play the game....
He's being facetious.

[Nash-tastic]

Yes he would, the only he cant possibly do is posterize, but he could do pretty much everything else, his clutch play is just superb, and IMO he's the 2nd best player all-time.

[allball]

Quite possibly. Bird could be the best in any area if he so desired.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Bird today

NBA comparison: Mike Dunleavy Jr

:roll:

[Da_Realist]

:oldlol:

Unbelievable. Look at the fake and pass at 3:46. :oldlol: Bird wasn't a tremendous athlete, but his hand-eye coordination was elite and his general quickness (on foot fakes, ball fakes, hand-speed, first step etc.) was very good.

I LOVE that step-back three at 2:55. That's a dagger to the heart right there. :applause:

[allball]

back then they sere slower than now-n-day's......Kobe would own him, imo.....this is a very tought era, he played in an era which was easier.....altho, he still had to go threw lakers/76ers/pistons......

this man played against Michael Jordan, Isiah, Dr. J, Marques Johnson, James Worthy and Dominique. they look slow to you? Bird would wear Kobe's a$$ much worse than Pierce did. GTFOH.

[Sir Charles]

I actually knew when I posted that that you'd chime in with such a comment. I expected it yesterday, though -- you're getting old, eliteballer. :oldlol: And no, I meant people who haven't even seen any games of his, not necessarily people who didn't see it live.



No, he's not. Not at all. He's definitely underrated, but he can't see Bird.



:oldlol:

Unbelievable. Look at the fake and pass at 3:46. :oldlol: Bird wasn't a tremendous athlete, but his hand-eye coordination was elite and his general quickness (on foot fakes, ball fakes, hand-speed, first step etc.) was very good.

0.38 - 0.41 = Bird`s Major Schooling on an Agil-Quick Hakeem..Hilarious :roll: :confusedshrug:

Bird between ages 23 and 30 (79-86) was not as slow as people think anyhow Bird is the Games Greatest SF because he has the whole package:

Can Rebound like a PF (I`ve seen him rebound againt guys like Worthy, Mahorn, Buck Williams, Kevin Willis etc)

Can Pass and See Like a PG: Just look at the clips...

Can Shoot like the Best SGs Ever and in the Clucht the Best Ever.

Gets his FTs

One of the Greatest Team -Defenders Ever

The Greatest Court Awareness Ever

The Greatest Eye Coordination Ever

Shoot and Pass with Both Hands

Bird in todays league would school even more than back. The rules favor his style of game even more: Slow Paced (Bird`s Home), No Handchecking (Bird`Posts Up Freely Gets Foulled More, Shoots 3s when he is hot freeley), Passing is Easier in a Zone Defense it just takes 1 guard to go past once his opponent and the rest are not tightly guarded etc

[inclinerator]

Read and learn. And Yes he would weight 240 lbs. Bird was not stocky built but he was thick boned, way stronger than most people think (I`ve seen him outrebound guys like Buck Williams, James Worthy, Kevin Willis etc) with the weight lifting he would have a stronger upper body with his boxing out skills and the actual No Physical Play in the NBA it would be easier for him to Rebound. With todays No Man to Man Defense he would get his Post Up Shots Easier and finally With the Actual Biggest Lie Ever = The Zone Defense...it would be very easy for him to Pass, Create and Make others Better since most of his Teamates would be Loose for him to find them and finally No Handchecking Bird in a 3-Point Attempt? = Laughable...

Bird was All but his Looks, An Assasing Hidden inside the Nerdy Country Boy Look

He Looked So Slow Yet he Avg 29.9 PPG and a Career 23-24 when the Handchecking Was The Common
He Didnt Look Like the Strongest Yet he Avg 10 Rebounds Per Game in Time Where Physical Play Was Allowed
He Didn`t Look so Agil, Yet he Averaged 1.7 SPG (Court Awareness, Playing Chess While Everybody is Playing Checkers)
He Didn`t Look like an NBA Player, Well Go Ask Dr.J about that :oldlol:
ur stupid u mean with supplements they had weights 30 years ago too idiot

[KenneBell]

It's possible. The game has evolved a lot since then though. It's pretty much useless to put players in different eras.

[Sir Charles]

this man played against Michael Jordan, Isiah, Dr. J, Marques Johnson, James Worthy and Dominique. they look slow to you? Bird would wear Kobe's a$$ much worse than Pierce did. GTFOH.

The Slow and Unathletic Fs that Bird played against:

Worthy, Dr J, Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Alex English, Dominique Wilkins, Tom Chambers Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Xavier McDaniel, Terry Cummings...

Yup, you guyst must be right: All The Way Pathetic SFs and SF/Pfs that Bird played against and was guarded by....

Bird was too Slow, To Unathletic and Too Weak to Play Against those Pathetic Players :roll: :hammerhead:

:roll:

[Sir Charles]

ur stupid u mean with supplements they had weights 30 years ago too idiot

yup sorry there...:confusedshrug: :cheers:

[Loki]

It's possible. The game has evolved a lot since then though. It's pretty much useless to put players in different eras.

:oldlol:

There is no "evolved" version of the game where the skills and ability that anyone can see in ANY Larry Bird video would NOT make him the best player in the league, or one of the handful of best at the very worst. Period.

Larry was perhaps the purest baller ever. True grit, skills, hustle, and heart.

[Sir Charles]

:oldlol:

There is no "evolved" version of the game where the skills and ability that anyone can see in ANY Larry Bird video would NOT make him the best player in the league, or one of the handful of best at the very worst. Period.

Larry was perhaps the purest baller ever. True grit, skills, hustle, and heart.

Actually the Game Has Devolved from the 80s: Skill Wise, Fundamentally Wise, Passing Game Wise, IQ Quise..easier for Perimter Players to Score, No Contact in the Paint, A Game of Pusssy`ss who whine to the refts when someone touches them with a feather and finally the Winning Will is Gone.

No player today has Bird`s level Even if one mixed Lebron and Pierce into one player they would make a Better Bird version:rolleyes:

[inclinerator]

no lebron with a paul pierce like jumper is pretty much unstoppable.

[Sir Charles]

no lebron with a paul pierce like jumper is pretty much unstoppable.

But Bird has that Jumper, has the 3-Pointer, has the Post Up Scoring Game, can Rebound between SFs/Pfs and if he gets fouled he shoots over 88-90% :confusedshrug:

[inclinerator]

Lebron with a jumper will be the most unstoppable force ever. averaging 30 on mostly driving alone right now and being guarded? they would have to guard his jumper closely now too with paul's jumper.

[D.J.]

The thing with Larry Bird is he was one of the best of all-time, even without an ounce of athleticism. At his size, he could shoot like one of the best shooting guards, create plays like one of the best point guards, and rebound against the best power forwards and centers. It didn't matter who you put on Bird. If you gave him an inch, he would take a mile. If you gave him just an inch of breathing room, he would either net a 20 footer in your face or find the open man for an easy basket.

He averaged 24/10/6 over his career and averaged seven or more assists per game three times. Today, if he were to attempt more three pointers, he could probably shoot 45% from downtown. There wasn't anything Larry Bird could not do.

[stephanieg]

There is no "evolved" version of the game where the skills and ability that anyone can see in ANY Larry Bird video would NOT make him the best player in the league, or one of the handful of best at the very worst. Period.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Anatomically modern day humans have been on this planet for approximately 200,000 years. About 50,000 years ago they became behaviorally modern (see "the great leap forward"). Ever since then humans have been constantly changing their environment to suit their needs. The human body has also changed in response to agriculture, modern day food processing, pollution, and other aspects of modern day living which didn't exist on the African savanna.

Basketball was invented a little over a century ago. Ever since then the human genome has been constantly at work producing generation after generation of new NBA stars. It's how evolution works. Fans want good players. Mother nature responds by making basketball players of increasing quality or "fitness."

You think Bird is a good player because he looks great competing against equally bad players by today's standards. It'd be like if you played against fifth graders. Sure, you look good, but only by comparison. If Bird played today he would be extremely limited given his stiffness, immobility, non-European whiteness, and slow decision making skills compared to modern day blurs like Troy Murphy or Tim Duncan.

You have to understand that if Hedo Turkoglu was sent back in a time machine he would dominate the NBA that Bird and his contemporaries played in. But nowadays he's just an OK player. Things move so fast.

But we shouldn't look back on past weaker eras arrogantly. Bird retired only a generation ago. In another generation players will be dunking from the three point line and looking back at our era with equal derision.

[Koop1]

**** No

[Loki]

**** No

:oldlol:

[RonySeikalyFTW]

Considering the frightening lack of fundamentals in today's game and Bird's being arguably the greatest fundamental player ever, I'd say he'd pretty much dominate today's game.

[Sir Charles]

Old Larry v.s Slow Unskilled Pathetic James Worthy

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=worthja01&p2=birdla01

22.5 PPG (46.7% FG), 9.3 RPG; 6.5 APG, 1.8 SPG and (54.5% 3-Point FG)

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Defensive/Rebounding Machine Dennis Rodman

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=birdla01&p2=rodmade01

24.7 PPG (48.7% FG), 8 RPG; 6.9 APG, 1 SPG, 1 BPG and (48.7% 3-Point FG)

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Unathletic and Pathetic Defender Scottie Pippen

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=birdla01&p2=pippesc01

25.9 PPG (50.3% FG), 8.3 RPG; 6.1 APG, 1 BPG (45% 3-Point FG)

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Unathletic Dominique Wilkins

22.4 PPG (50.4% FG), 8 RPG; 6.4 APG, 1.6 SPG

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Unathletic Shawn Kemp

20.6 PPG (54.5% FG), 10 RPG; 6 APG, 1.6 SPG

Larry Bird definetly played against Weak, Unathletic and Bad NBA Forwards

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

:sleeping

[dhenk]

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Anatomically modern day humans have been on this planet for approximately 200,000 years. About 50,000 years ago they became behaviorally modern (see "the great leap forward"). Ever since then humans have been constantly changing their environment to suit their needs. The human body has also changed in response to agriculture, modern day food processing, pollution, and other aspects of modern day living which didn't exist on the African savanna.

Basketball was invented a little over a century ago. Ever since then the human genome has been constantly at work producing generation after generation of new NBA stars. It's how evolution works. Fans want good players. Mother nature responds by making basketball players of increasing quality or "fitness."

You think Bird is a good player because he looks great competing against equally bad players by today's standards. It'd be like if you played against fifth graders. Sure, you look good, but only by comparison. If Bird played today he would be extremely limited given his stiffness, immobility, non-European whiteness, and slow decision making skills compared to modern day blurs like Troy Murphy or Tim Duncan.

You have to understand that if Hedo Turkoglu was sent back in a time machine he would dominate the NBA that Bird and his contemporaries played in. But nowadays he's just an OK player. Things move so fast.

But we shouldn't look back on past weaker eras arrogantly. Bird retired only a generation ago. In another generation players will be dunking from the three point line and looking back at our era with equal derision.

I know it

[miller-time]

larry bird wasn't stiff, he was awkward looking but not stiff. a 50 year old is stiff.

and yes he would be the best player in the nba today.

[TmacsRockets]

I can't believe people are disrepecting Bird like this.

[abuC]

Sir Charles is a horrible poster, jesus why isnt he banned?


Why do people say Bird wasnt athletic though, the guy had PF size but played SF, that alone should tell you he was athletic. He wasnt athletic by elite guard standards, but how many 6"10 guys are?

[allball]

You think Bird is a good player because he looks great competing against equally bad players by today's standards. It'd be like if you played against fifth graders. Sure, you look good, but only by comparison. If Bird played today he would be extremely limited given his stiffness, immobility, non-European whiteness, and slow decision making skills compared to modern day blurs like Troy Murphy or Tim Duncan.

You have to understand that if Hedo Turkoglu was sent back in a time machine he would dominate the NBA that Bird and his contemporaries played in. But nowadays he's just an OK player. Things move so fast.



yeah the 80's were full of stiffs like Erving, Jordan, Isiah, Drexler, Worthy, McHale, Barkley, Nique, Marques Johnson, Hakeem, Moses. Yep Hedo's soft a$$ would dominate those guys.

BTW you do know the game was much faster then?

[abuC]

yeah the 80's were full of stiffs like Erving, Jordan, Isiah, Drexler, Worthy, McHale, Barkley, Nique, Marques Johnson, Hakeem, Moses. Yep Hedo's soft a$$ would dominate those guys.

BTW you do know the game was much faster then?


I think he he was being sarcastic there.


One thing though, using the absolute best from an era to prove a point is silly, because more often than not those guys were ahead of the curve. If you want to gauge how athletic the league is, look at the guys on the bench, look at the league as a whole, not just the pinnacle.

[gotbacon23]

*That ofcourse if he plays in the Western Conference if he plays in the Actual Weaker East expect a rise for 8-10 Season on those Stats

the western conference has been better, but i don't think the conference a player plays in affects their stats as much as the actual team they are on.
remember nba teams schedules are 71% the same as others (in terms of the amount of times they play teams and the where they play them because each team plays each other team at least twice- once at home, once on the road, so therefore 58 out of 82 games for all teams are the same- 71%).

if stats were affected my conference so much- why did KG, Ray Allens, and rashard lewis's numbers actually FALL when going to the east from the west- wheras al jefferson had an increase in scoring going from east to west?
thats cause it doesn't matter what conference you are in- it matters what team you are on regardless of conference as your opponents are 71% the same as any player in either conference.

but i digress... bird would be the best player in the game if he was healthy and at his peak. people say that unathletic BS when he played yet he still dominated, how would it be any different now? he is one of the smartest players ever to play the game adn he would dominate today and put up at LEAST the numbers he put up in his best years (26-30 ppg, 9-11 rpg, 6-8 apg with high percentages).

[gabeh1018]

these forums have gotten extremely bad lately..

bird would excel and dominate in any era.... what some young folk don't understand about basketball is that you don't have to be athletic, have a high vert, or fast to dominant a game. Ask Tim Duncan.

Bird's sheer killer instinct, drive, focus, and love of the game was probably only matched by the GOAT himself, Jordan.

I hope some of the people that said Kobe would "own" Bird cause he played in a slow,weak era --- which is complete b.s. btw---- realize that in 2030 there will be some stud in the NBA named Rotouf Sizomep who averages 31-10-8 and kids who grew up in that generation will look back and say guys like kobe, jordan, shaq, etc. played in a weak era. Its a cycle and it will always continue.

[gotbacon23]

these forums have gotten extremely bad lately..

bird would excel and dominate in any era.... what some young folk don't understand about basketball is that you don't have to be athletic, have a high vert, or fast to dominant a game. Ask Tim Duncan.

Bird's sheer killer instinct, drive, focus, and love of the game was probably only matched by the GOAT himself, Jordan.

I hope some of the people that said Kobe would "own" Bird cause he played in a slow,weak era --- which is complete b.s. btw---- realize that in 2030 there will be some stud in the NBA named Rotouf Sizomep who averages 31-10-8 and kids who grew up in that generation will look back and say guys like kobe, jordan, shaq, etc. played in a weak era. Its a cycle and it will always continue.


rotouf sizomep is money.

[the_chosen_1]

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Anatomically modern day humans have been on this planet for approximately 200,000 years. About 50,000 years ago they became behaviorally modern (see "the great leap forward"). Ever since then humans have been constantly changing their environment to suit their needs. The human body has also changed in response to agriculture, modern day food processing, pollution, and other aspects of modern day living which didn't exist on the African savanna.

Basketball was invented a little over a century ago. Ever since then the human genome has been constantly at work producing generation after generation of new NBA stars. It's how evolution works. Fans want good players. Mother nature responds by making basketball players of increasing quality or "fitness."

You think Bird is a good player because he looks great competing against equally bad players by today's standards. It'd be like if you played against fifth graders. Sure, you look good, but only by comparison. If Bird played today he would be extremely limited given his stiffness, immobility, non-European whiteness, and slow decision making skills compared to modern day blurs like Troy Murphy or Tim Duncan.

You have to understand that if Hedo Turkoglu was sent back in a time machine he would dominate the NBA that Bird and his contemporaries played in. But nowadays he's just an OK player. Things move so fast.

But we shouldn't look back on past weaker eras arrogantly. Bird retired only a generation ago. In another generation players will be dunking from the three point line and looking back at our era with equal derision.


Are you serious? Evolution does not happen that fast!
Decision making has gone downhill; Bird would easily be in the top 5.

[Revelation]

Bird today

NBA comparison: Mike Dunleavy Jr

Are you suggesting that Bird would be on the level of Mike Dunleavy Jr. (assuming he was in the league right now)?


As for my opinion, prime Bird would be the best player in the league right now.

1. Bird
2. Lebron
3. Kobe

[Sir Charles]

Sir Charles is a horrible poster, jesus why isnt he banned?

Why do people say Bird wasnt athletic though, the guy had PF size but played SF, that alone should tell you he was athletic. He wasnt athletic by elite guard standards, but how many 6"10 guys are?

Do I qualify your posts and ask for bans when I don`t agree with you? Dam you seem like the cry baby semi stars of today that hardly get hit and to crying to the refs asking for fouls :rolleyes:

Bird had below average speed, leap, potence and was not the strongest of 6`9ers but then again he was the "Most Skilled Player" in the NBA til 1986, "The Clutches"t and the "Smartest by a Miles". No other Player dominated the "Boxing Out Skill" Better than Bird for Rebounds (helped alot with a great desire), his Shooting is Legendary (and its not all Percentages because Bird used to like to play with the crowd have fun and shoot in some difficult shots to challange himself and he many times was guarded the tightest any player was guarded outside the paint), his "Eye & Body Coordinatin" and "Domination of Both Hands" is the Greatest of All Time (its funny when an unathletic guy has that much coordination, very rare to find = genious like) and ofcoruse his "Passing Abilities", "Strength of Rists" and "PG Guard like Vision" was out this earth.

Bird Would Dominate in Every Era and These Where his Unathletic, Weak and Bad Forward Competitions whom many Times Guarded Him:

Old Larry v.s Slow Unskilled Pathetic James Worthy

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=worthja01&p2=birdla01

22.5 PPG (46.7% FG), 9.3 RPG; 6.5 APG, 1.8 SPG and (54.5% 3-Point FG)

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Defensive/Rebounding Machine Dennis Rodman

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=birdla01&p2=rodmade01

24.7 PPG (48.7% FG), 8 RPG; 6.9 APG, 1 SPG, 1 BPG and (48.7% 3-Point FG)

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Unathletic and Pathetic Defender Scottie Pippen

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=birdla01&p2=pippesc01

25.9 PPG (50.3% FG), 8.3 RPG; 6.1 APG, 1 BPG (45% 3-Point FG)

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Unathletic Dominique Wilkins

22.4 PPG (50.4% FG), 8 RPG; 6.4 APG, 1.6 SPG

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Unathletic Shawn Kemp

20.6 PPG (54.5% FG), 10 RPG; 6 APG, 1.6 SPG

Larry Bird definetly played against Weak, Unathletic and Bad NBA Forwards

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

:sleeping

[Thorpesaurous]

It seems like 75% of this thread is either sarcasm, or serious responses to sarcasm, or sarcastic responses to serious responses to sarcasm. It's a mess.

The inevitable comparisons between a prime Bird and Lebron would be really fun. Mostly because they'd be putting up very similar numbers, with Bird drawing a few more rebounds. But I really think the variety of ways in which Bird can score is what made him devastating, and it wouldn't change at the moment. It's also why he's considered so clutch, because he's almost impossible to gameplan for because he's got too many weapons to beat you with.
In fact, in the current environment, things would almost work more to his favor. He's really tough to zone against, yet his defensive shortcomings (which are really overstated) could be hidden some. As the league has shrunk, he's probably a better rebounder now than he was then (even at the faster pace back then, he was a 10 board a night guy next to two HOF frontliners). His post game would be among the top five in the league at the moment, and with more mismatched inside out games being played against the more side limited defenses, that would be really exploitable. Even the more limited physicallity would mean his first step would be better because guys would have to get so close to him to defend his jumper. And the increase in those touch fouls called would benefit him since he's gonna shoot 90% from the stripe.

He's not thought about for it because he's generally not considered an end to end player (another overstatement), but he would have been a monster in the wide open Suns system from the past few years. Spreading the floor with his jumper. Outrebounding the SF position like crazy, or isoing against PFs. The floor spaced and cutters flying through where his vision would shine. His decision making on the fly. And it's not like he'd be opposed to a scheme asking to pump up a shot every 6-10 seconds. Even the defensive philosophy asking to jump passing lanes play into his strengths.

[abuC]

Do I qualify your posts and ask for bans when I don`t agree with you? Dam you seem like the cry baby semi stars of today that hardly get hit and to crying to the refs asking for fouls :rolleyes:

Bird had below average speed, leap, potence and was not the strongest of 6`9ers but then again he was the "Most Skilled Player" in the NBA til 1986, "The Clutches"t and the "Smartest by a Miles". No other Player dominated the "Boxing Out Skill" Better than Bird for Rebounds (helped alot with a great desire), his Shooting is Legendary (and its not all Percentages because Bird used to like to play with the crowd have fun and shoot in some difficult shots to challange himself and he many times was guarded the tightest any player was guarded outside the paint), his "Eye & Body Coordinatin" and "Domination of Both Hands" is the Greatest of All Time (its funny when an unathletic guy has that much coordination, very rare to find = genious like) and ofcoruse his "Passing Abilities", "Strength of Rists" and "PG Guard like Vision" was out this earth.

Bird Would Dominate in Every Era and These Where his Unathletic, Weak and Bad Forward Competitions whom many Times Guarded Him:

Old Larry v.s Slow Unskilled Pathetic James Worthy

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=worthja01&p2=birdla01

22.5 PPG (46.7% FG), 9.3 RPG; 6.5 APG, 1.8 SPG and (54.5% 3-Point FG)

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Defensive/Rebounding Machine Dennis Rodman

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=birdla01&p2=rodmade01

24.7 PPG (48.7% FG), 8 RPG; 6.9 APG, 1 SPG, 1 BPG and (48.7% 3-Point FG)

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Unathletic and Pathetic Defender Scottie Pippen

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=birdla01&p2=pippesc01

25.9 PPG (50.3% FG), 8.3 RPG; 6.1 APG, 1 BPG (45% 3-Point FG)

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Unathletic Dominique Wilkins

22.4 PPG (50.4% FG), 8 RPG; 6.4 APG, 1.6 SPG

Old Larry Bird`s pathetic stats vs Unathletic Shawn Kemp

20.6 PPG (54.5% FG), 10 RPG; 6 APG, 1.6 SPG

Larry Bird definetly played against Weak, Unathletic and Bad NBA Forwards

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

:sleeping


There's no chance Im reading this.

[starface]

Bird's era was nothing like the era of today.

People seriously need to realize this.

There are literally millions more kids who grew up playing basketball since the MJ era, both in this country and abroad. The game is so much more competitive, and the play itself is evolved as well.

Now if Bird were growing up today playing the modern game, would he be great? Who knows. But believe me, if you put the Bird who played ball in the 80's in the current game, GOBB is right, he'd be about Mike Dunleavy Jr. but would look even a lot more awkward with the stiff, hunched over dribbling and jerky movements.

[ShamRockStar]

Bird was more athletic than some of you think. Watch his top ten playoff moments, hes divin for loose balls, fillin the lane on the break and puttin in reverse layups, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_nfsq4pTpI&feature=related

[Loki]

Bird's era was nothing like the era of today.

People seriously need to realize this.

There are literally millions more kids who grew up playing basketball since the MJ era, both in this country and abroad. The game is so much more competitive, and the play itself is evolved as well.

Now if Bird were growing up today playing the modern game, would he be great? Who knows. But believe me, if you put the Bird who played ball in the 80's in the current game, GOBB is right, he'd be about Mike Dunleavy Jr. but would look even a lot more awkward with the stiff, hunched over dribbling and jerky movements.

:oldlol:

You're off your rocker. That Larry Bird -- the same one we're seeing in videos from old games -- can come in today and dominate. Never mind if he "came up today" with all of today's benefits and a more modern handle. THAT Bird would be the #1 player today. Whatever else you want to assume he'd have if he came up today is just extra. You know nothing about the game if you can watch prime Bird play and not realize that he'd kill in any era.

[guy]

Bird's era was nothing like the era of today.

People seriously need to realize this.

There are literally millions more kids who grew up playing basketball since the MJ era, both in this country and abroad. The game is so much more competitive, and the play itself is evolved as well.

Now if Bird were growing up today playing the modern game, would he be great? Who knows. But believe me, if you put the Bird who played ball in the 80's in the current game, GOBB is right, he'd be about Mike Dunleavy Jr. but would look even a lot more awkward with the stiff, hunched over dribbling and jerky movements.

I used to believe this theory too, but from talking with other people, I think that this would really only apply to before the 80s for the NBA, and before the 70s as a whole. The reason being is cause that was the baby boomer. Maybe for the population of kids growing up after the Jordan era, there was a greater percentage of that population playing basketball, but with the baby boomer generation, there population was larger. I think it evens out that way. Kareem, Dr. J, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Hakeem were all part of the baby boomer generation. Either way, I doubt Bird would be Dunleavy Jr. If he was able to dominate games with the SFs of the 80s guarding him, I highly doubt it would be that different today. Maybe he wouldn't be as good, but I think to say he would be Dunleavy Jr. is really underrating his era/overrating this era.

[eliteballer]

Dirk can lead a team to 67 wins win MVP yet Bird who was more skilled and more athletic wouldn't thrive?:roll:

[Sir Charles]

[QUOTE=starface]Bird's era was nothing like the era of today.

People seriously need to realize this.

There are literally millions more kids who grew up playing basketball since the MJ era, both in this country and abroad. The game is so much more competitive, and the play itself is evolved as well.

The Game Might Be More Competitive but does that Mean The Quality of COmpetition is Good? :no:

Back in the 80s till about 92 Very Few AMERICANS or NON AMERICANS MADE IT TO THE NBA. The league was not watered down as it was in the mid 90s-2000s. ONLY THE BEST OF THE BEST...MADE IT TO THE NBA...NOT JUST HIGH LEAPING ATHLETIC THUGS THAT CAN DUNK COOL and have ZERO FUNDAMENTALS...which there has been an Increase off since the Mid 90s till today

Now if Bird were growing up today playing the modern game, would he be great? Who knows. But believe me, if you put the Bird who played ball in the 80's in the current game, GOBB is right, he'd be about Mike Dunleavy Jr. but would look even a lot more awkward with the stiff, hunched over dribbling and jerky movements.

1st of All....Get Your Facts Straight:

Bird can Shoot Better than Any SF today
Bird can Pass Better than Any SF today
Bird can Rebound Better than Any SF today
Bird has a Higher FT than Any SF of today
Mird has More Fundamentals than any Player Today
Bird has More Clutch play than any Player Ever
Bird has More Court Awareness tha any Player Ever or Era Ever
Bird has more Eye and Hands (both left and right) Coordination than Any Player Ever or Era Ever
Bird has more Witts than Any Player Today
Bird has more Heart than Any Player Today

Finally, Bird played when there where more Players with Talent, Sklill, Fundamentals, B-Ball IQ and when:

Handcheckign Was Allowed, Physical Play Was Allowed, No Rules that Favored Shooters where in place (like the Handchecking) and with the Zone Defense Bird implanted Bird would make the 1st All Defensive Team Every Year because he was the Best Off Man Defender SF Ever.

Not to mention: In a Slow Paced Game = Everyone in The League Would be Falling in to the BIRD TRAP = that was his game, his style...!!!

Magic prooved this in 1996 as a 36 year old man that had not been playing Pro for 5 years (and came as PF not eve as PG, that is playing a different position) The Level of the League had gone done.

And the Level of the League has gone Down Even more the Last 10 Years.

A 1981 to 1986 Bird (ages 25-30) would not just be The Best SF but he would

DESTROY TODAY`S LEAGUE

With todays weight training and vitamin complementation he would be a 240 lbs SF that can Shoot like the Best Ever SFs, Rebound like the Best PFs and Pass like the Best PGs. If he gets fouled he shoots at 90% FT

Bird Would Own The League

[AItheAnswer3]

[QUOTE=starface]Bird's era was nothing like the era of today.

People seriously need to realize this.

There are literally millions more kids who grew up playing basketball since the MJ era, both in this country and abroad. The game is so much more competitive, and the play itself is evolved as well.

The Game Might Be More Competitive but does that Mean The Quality of COmpetition is Good? :no:

Back in the 80s till about 92 Very Few AMERICANS or NON AMERICANS MADE IT TO THE NBA. The league was not watered down as it was in the mid 90s-2000s. ONLY THE BEST OF THE BEST...MADE IT TO THE NBA...NOT JUST HIGH LEAPING ATHLETIC THUGS THAT CAN DUNK COOL and have ZERO FUNDAMENTALS...which there has been an Increase off since the Mid 90s till today

Now if Bird were growing up today playing the modern game, would he be great? Who knows. But believe me, if you put the Bird who played ball in the 80's in the current game, GOBB is right, he'd be about Mike Dunleavy Jr. but would look even a lot more awkward with the stiff, hunched over dribbling and jerky movements.

1st of All....Get Your Facts Straight:

Bird can Shoot Better than Any SF today
Bird can Pass Better than Any SF today
Bird can Rebound Better than Any SF today
Bird has a Higher FT than Any SF of today
Mird has More Fundamentals than any Player Today
Bird has More Clutch play than any Player Ever
Bird has More Court Awareness tha any Player Ever or Era Ever
Bird has more Eye and Hands (both left and right) Coordination than Any Player Ever or Era Ever
Bird has more Witts than Any Player Today
Bird has more Heart than Any Player Today

Finally, Bird played when there where more Players with Talent, Sklill, Fundamentals, B-Ball IQ and when:

Handcheckign Was Allowed, Physical Play Was Allowed, No Rules that Favored Shooters where in place (like the Handchecking) and with the Zone Defense Bird implanted Bird would make the 1st All Defensive Team Every Year because he was the Best Off Man Defender SF Ever.

Not to mention: In a Slow Paced Game = Everyone in The League Would be Falling in to the BIRD TRAP = that was his game, his style...!!!

Magic prooved this in 1996 as a 36 year old man that had not been playing Pro for 5 years (and came as PF not eve as PG, that is playing a different position) The Level of the League had gone done.

And the Level of the League has gone Down Even more the Last 10 Years.

A 1981 to 1986 Bird (ages 25-30) would not just be The Best SF but he would

DESTROY TODAY`S LEAGUE

With todays weight training and vitamin complementation would be a 240-245 lbs SF that can Shoot like the Best Ever SFs, Rebound like the Best PFs and Pass like the Best PGs. If he gets fouled he shoots at 90% FT

Bird Would Own The League

:violin:

[RidonKs]

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Anatomically modern day humans have been on this planet for approximately 200,000 years. About 50,000 years ago they became behaviorally modern (see "the great leap forward"). Ever since then humans have been constantly changing their environment to suit their needs. The human body has also changed in response to agriculture, modern day food processing, pollution, and other aspects of modern day living which didn't exist on the African savanna.

Basketball was invented a little over a century ago. Ever since then the human genome has been constantly at work producing generation after generation of new NBA stars. It's how evolution works. Fans want good players. Mother nature responds by making basketball players of increasing quality or "fitness."

You think Bird is a good player because he looks great competing against equally bad players by today's standards. It'd be like if you played against fifth graders. Sure, you look good, but only by comparison. If Bird played today he would be extremely limited given his stiffness, immobility, non-European whiteness, and slow decision making skills compared to modern day blurs like Troy Murphy or Tim Duncan.

You have to understand that if Hedo Turkoglu was sent back in a time machine he would dominate the NBA that Bird and his contemporaries played in. But nowadays he's just an OK player. Things move so fast.

But we shouldn't look back on past weaker eras arrogantly. Bird retired only a generation ago. In another generation players will be dunking from the three point line and looking back at our era with equal derision.
:oldlol: Beautifully done.

[miles berg]

Dirk can lead a team to 67 wins win MVP yet Bird who was more skilled and more athletic wouldn't thrive?:roll:

Bird wasn't even remotely close to being as athletic as Dirk.

[Sir Charles]

Bird wasn't even remotely close to being as athletic as Dirk.

Question was Ralph Sampson more athletic than McHale? :no:
Was he better? :no:

Is Shawn Kemp more athletic than Duncan? :no:

Was he better? :no:

Dirk is a PF...Bird a SF but the difference is Bird can do any skill better than Dirk, Any!

Settled? :sleeping

[miles berg]

Bird couldn't drive as well as Dirk nor create his own shot as well as Dirk.

Again, you guys kill me that live in the past. You are like the grandparents that tell their grandkids how much easier they have it now compared to 30 years ago.

[GOBB]

My post wasnt serious. nbadraft.net (which some here fancies alot) had Dunleavy Jr's NBA comparison: Larry Bird. Thats why I reversed the comparison. Tried to go to the site and copy/paste the strengths/weaknesses, edit them up a bit to make them Bird's. But they dont have it anymore.

[Loki]

Bird wasn't even remotely close to being as athletic as Dirk.

Bird is more athletic than Dirk. Quicker, far better body control, far better hand/eye coordination, even a better leaper (though neither was elite in that regard).

EDIT: Bird couldn't create his own shot as well as Dirk? :oldlol: What's next, you gonna tell me Dirk's court vision is comparable too? :oldlol:

[miles berg]

No, he wasn't loki. You gotta realize that 1993 is over man. I really enjoy your rants sometimes but you live so far in the past I doubt you can even see the future.

I mean that in a nice way. You gotta get over the past, it isn't like the game today at all. It is 10x's faster, quicker, and more athletic today with better players, athletes, doctors, trainers, and a far better coaching pedigree available to kids starting at the age of 4 and lasting until they retire in their 30s or 40s.

[GOBB]

Eh I cant side Dirk creating his own shot better than Bird. You may not think Bird from the past would be as great in todays game. But I just cant see Bird not getting Dallas the NBA title vs Miami or getting upsetted by GSW. I dont see how Bird back in his day placed in the first round series vs GSW doesnt abuse the same players who Dirk struggled to own/back down.

I agree todays plays may be bigger, faster and what not. But that doesnt mean thier skills evolved out of thin air. Thats what this game really is. Skills and the mental ability to figure out this game, your opponents and come up big. Lots of guys in todays league get by on athletic ability and not skill.

I dont see how skill and bball smarts cant overcome/outdue the "athlete" of today. Teams play alot of zones because everyone cant shoot. Bird and shooting were synomous with one another. And alot of times people think thats all Bird was. A superior shooter when he excelled in other areas. I just dont see how Bird couldnt handle todays game nor do I see Dirk being better.

Being fast, bigger, stronger, with cartoon hops is great but if you cant come off a screen and knock down a jumper. How much is that worth? Eh, dunno man.

[Sir Charles]

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=wEaNwJPssEs

:cheers:

[Sir Charles]

Bird couldn't drive as well as Dirk nor create his own shot as well as Dirk.

Again, you guys kill me that live in the past. You are like the grandparents that tell their grandkids how much easier they have it now compared to 30 years ago.

:no:

Our Grandparents had it harder (no internet, many hald to walk to their jobs far distances etc) actually not to mention that in todays game there nis No Handchecking, No Real Fouls Called, 3 Second Rule, 5 Second Back the Basket Rule, Less Fundamentals, Less B.Ball IQ, Less Passing Game etc

[KENNER SLU]

Love your post

[dhenk]

No, he wasn't loki. You gotta realize that 1993 is over man. I really enjoy your rants sometimes but you live so far in the past I doubt you can even see the future.

I mean that in a nice way. You gotta get over the past, it isn't like the game today at all. It is 10x's faster, quicker, and more athletic today with better players, athletes, doctors, trainers, and a far better coaching pedigree available to kids starting at the age of 4 and lasting until they retire in their 30s or 40s.

I`m german, and even I have to admit that Bird is the superior player.
I agree that Dirk might be more athletic (but not by much, Bird`s athleticism pre-injury is extremely underrated), but Bird was the better defender, better passer, had a superior court vision, maybe the most clutch player ever, and even his shot, Dirk`s staple, was better than Nowitzki`s.

Dirk is a great player, top 10 in the league, one of the most unique players ever, but a Larry Bird he is not. Bird would be the most dominant player in the league today, imo...

[Sir Charles]

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=xvs74__JpAU

:cheers:

[AItheAnswer3]

What the **** are you trying to prove?

[Sir Charles]

What the **** are you trying to prove?

I have nothing to prove. Enjoy the Game Highlights :violin:

[Sir Charles]

Love your post

:cheers:

[Loki]

No, he wasn't loki. You gotta realize that 1993 is over man. I really enjoy your rants sometimes but you live so far in the past I doubt you can even see the future.

Dude, look at videos of Bird. Dirk doesn't even approach Bird's general quickness. I'm talking on foot-fakes, ball fakes, and first step.

Seriously, most people can see this. I'm talking '81-'86 Bird here, btw.


I mean that in a nice way. You gotta get over the past, it isn't like the game today at all. It is 10x's faster, quicker, and more athletic today with better players, athletes, doctors, trainers, and a far better coaching pedigree available to kids starting at the age of 4 and lasting until they retire in their 30s or 40s.

Bird was averaging 20/10/7 in 1992 at age 35 with crippling back and neck injuries. The game hasn't changed so much from 1992, sorry. A player of Bird's ability and skill is timeless. He'd be a 25/9/6 player at a minimum today.

I still can't believe you think Dirk is better able to create shots than Larry Bird. :oldlol: Man...Bird is one of the 3 most skilled offensive players ever imo. I know for sh!t sure that he wouldn't get shut down like Dirk's been several times by (significantly) smaller opponents. His footwork was significantly better, his off the ball movement was WORLDS better, he was a better offensive rebounder, better finisher, comparable/better shooter, far better post player, and had a better handle.

[pete's montreux]

I prefer this one.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=7zk1vWGxEXo&feature=related

The jumpshot that Larry takes at 3:06 is the cleanest jumpshot I've ever seen.

[Sir Charles]

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=zAOx36A48wU

:applause:

[Sir Charles]

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=NTqDdZz2dHM

:applause:

[Sir Charles]

Dude, look at videos of Bird. Dirk doesn't even approach Bird's general quickness. I'm talking on foot-fakes, ball fakes, and first step.

Seriously, most people can see this. I'm talking '81-'86 Bird here, btw.



Bird was averaging 20/10/7 in 1992 at age 35 with crippling back and neck injuries. The game hasn't changed so much from 1992, sorry. A player of Bird's ability and skill is timeless. He'd be a 25/9/6 player at a minimum todayI still can't believe you think Dirk is better able to create shots than Larry Bird. :oldlol: Man...Bird is one of the 3 most skilled offensive players ever imo. I know for sh!t sure that he wouldn't get shut down like Dirk's been several times by (significantly) smaller opponents. His footwork was significantly better, his off the ball movement was WORLDS better, he was a better offensive rebounder, better finisher, comparable/better shooter, far better post player, and had a better handle.

He'd be a 25/9/6 player at a minimum today.

:no:

He id be 25/9/6 player between ages 31-35 on...

At ages 22 to 30 Bird would be a 28-30/10-12/ 7-9 player and under todays rules & lack of fundamentals... some 2-3 years above that.

[Sir Charles]

I prefer this one.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=7zk1vWGxEXo&feature=related

The jumpshot that Larry takes at 3:06 is the cleanest jumpshot I've ever seen.

By the way Pierce is a player that reminds me of the Old School Players :applause: he is like a Bigger version of DJ at SF

[Loki]

He'd be a 25/9/6 player at a minimum today.

:no:

He id be 25/9/6 player between ages 31-35 on...

At ages 22 to 30 Bird would be a 28-30/10-12/ 7-9 player and under todays rules & lack of fundamentals... some 2-3 years above that.

Do you know what "at a minimum" means? It's the worst case scenario.

[Sir Charles]

Do you know what "at a minimum" means? It's the worst case scenario.

:applause: :roll: :ohwell:

Bird Would School the NBA filled with thugs that can jump cool but don`t know how to think, playr and lack fundamentals

[AItheAnswer3]

Do you know what "at a minimum" means? It's the worst case scenario.

:roll:
He's a moron. What do you expect

[inclinerator]

sir charles you forgot one thing if bird play in this era he would be 2x as strong as charles barkley

[Sir Charles]

sir charles you forgot one thing if bird play in this era he would be 2x as strong as charles barkley

???

[juju151111]

I have nothing to prove. Enjoy the Game Highlights :violin:
agreed upload more.MJ and bird in there prime:cheers:

[Godfather]

How close or far apart would Lebron, CP3, Duncan be in comparison to Bird?
He would be in the good player gap of today's game, not the great. Larry Bird is not physically gifted enough to compare with today's players. He would however get a fraction (a strong fraction) of his points, assists, and rebounds through pure fundamentals. On the defensive end however Bird would be a crutch to a team today, due to his lack of athletic ability.

(and about Bird being comparable to Dirk...Since when was Larry Bird 7'0''?)

[Loki]

He would be in the good player gap of today's game, not the great. Larry Bird is not physically gifted enough to compare with today's players. He would however get a fraction (a strong fraction) of his points, assists, and rebounds through pure fundamentals. On the defensive end however Bird would be a crutch to a team today, due to his lack of athletic ability.

(and about Bird being comparable to Dirk...Since when was Larry Bird 7'0''?)

:oldlol:

[Godfather]

:oldlol:

Tell me Larry Bird compares to the athletes of today...He is an improved Mike Dunleavy in today's game.

[plowking]

:oldlol:

Defenders are better today.

I can use your theory on todays game to prove it to you. You said that todays game has rules in place to help the offensive player, and players are being held to lower scores then they were in the 80's and 90's. So even with increased rules to help the offensive player, defensive players are still finding a way to stop baskets and keep scores lower then that of the 80's and 90's. It is due to players being more athletic, faster movement, and better awareness.

So you can't have it both ways Loki, either defense has improved in this era, or offense has improved.

[Thorpesaurous]

No, he wasn't loki. You gotta realize that 1993 is over man. I really enjoy your rants sometimes but you live so far in the past I doubt you can even see the future.

I mean that in a nice way. You gotta get over the past, it isn't like the game today at all. It is 10x's faster, quicker, and more athletic today with better players, athletes, doctors, trainers, and a far better coaching pedigree available to kids starting at the age of 4 and lasting until they retire in their 30s or 40s.

I think the problem is that you're thinking of Bird circa 1993, which has nothing to do with Bird 84-86. I actually agree that Dirk has gotten so much criticism over the years that he has become very underrated. I also hold in very high regard the ability to consistently keep a team in contention over a long period of a time, even more so than the burst of a title run. But Dirk isn't really close to Bird. Bird's a better rebounder, better defender, better ball handler, much better post player, and far better playmaker and passer in general (probably the best ever at the position).


Defenders are better today.

I can use your theory on todays game to prove it to you. You said that todays game has rules in place to help the offensive player, and players are being held to lower scores then they were in the 80's and 90's. So even with increased rules to help the offensive player, defensive players are still finding a way to stop baskets and keep scores lower then that of the 80's and 90's. It is due to players being more athletic, faster movement, and better awareness.

This too is a legit argument, but from all the basketball I've watched, the reason the scoring dipped wasn't about better defense, it was about a much more controlled tempo that the league went to. I think a lot of it has to do with coaches playing far more into iso mismatch type basketball. It also seems to have coincided with expansion, when the talent pool thinned out, then again when the early entry boom started, and younger and younger guys were regularly in rotations because of the investment teams made in them. And even when their skillsets were in place, their decision making took a lot of time to come around. That led to coaches really pulling back on the reigns, and not letting teams play at a more frantic pace. There's some evidence in the more specialist type players that started populating the league during that stretch too.

[Scott Pippen]

Tell me Larry Bird compares to the athletes of today...He is an improved Mike Dunleavy in today's game.
unbelievable

[Scott Pippen]

I think the problem is that you're thinking of Bird circa 1993, which has nothing to do with Bird 84-86. I actually agree that Dirk has gotten so much criticism over the years that he has become very underrated. I also hold in very high regard the ability to consistently keep a team in contention over a long period of a time, even more so than the burst of a title run. But Dirk isn't really close to Bird. Bird's a better rebounder, better defender, better ball handler, much better post player, and far better playmaker and passer in general (probably the best ever at the position).



This too is a legit argument, but from all the basketball I've watched, the reason the scoring dipped wasn't about better defense, it was about a much more controlled tempo that the league went to. I think a lot of it has to do with coaches playing far more into iso mismatch type basketball. It also seems to have coincided with expansion, when the talent pool thinned out, then again when the early entry boom started, and younger and younger guys were regularly in rotations because of the investment teams made in them. And even when their skillsets were in place, their decision making took a lot of time to come around. That led to coaches really pulling back on the reigns, and not letting teams play at a more frantic pace. There's some evidence in the more specialist type players that started populating the league during that stretch too.


agree:applause:

[1000yearsofPAIN]

Yes no doubt, he'd be like playmaker of Steve Nash with strength and quickness like Paul Pierce and shooting ability of Jason Kapono, clutchness of Manu Ginobili and defensive awareness of Kevin Garnett, all those skilles PLUS it was his passion and drive that made him the great player he was, and that is unparralleled in this league today. There are too many jack of all trades master of none players these days, or specialist superstars who are only good at one thing (gilbert and dirk, jacking 3s for example) but Bird was a jack of all trades, MASTER OF ALL. He pretty much has no weaknesses.

[Loki]

Defenders are better today.

Bird did it to Pippen, Rodman, Pressey, Cooper, McCray, Bobby Jones -- you name it, Bird trashed them. Go watch a 33 year old hobbled Bird abuse Pippen and tell me about how defenders are "better today." :oldlol: Individual defenders are actually worse today, since they can be hidden by zone; it's team defenses that are better, if anything. The 1984-1996 era probably produced more of the best defenders in history than any other era.


I can use your theory on todays game to prove it to you. You said that todays game has rules in place to help the offensive player, and players are being held to lower scores then they were in the 80's and 90's. So even with increased rules to help the offensive player, defensive players are still finding a way to stop baskets and keep scores lower then that of the 80's and 90's.

Team scores are low, not individual player scoring outputs. Over the last few years we've had more players average 30 ppg than ever before. Two different things.

Btw, not really relevant here, but last year's league averages were 99.9 ppg/45.7% FG. In 1996, the averages were 99.5 ppg/46.2% FG. So no, scores aren't lower than "in the 90's." First half of the 90's maybe. And again, there are many reasons why scores are lower now; it's not just the defense being played. Unsurprisingly, scores have inched up as more teams become stocked with talent (you know, like how it used to be). I expect league averages this year to be even higher.

[miller-time]

players are NOT physically stronger or faster than players of 20 years ago. they just have better training regimes and medical resources.

a player does not evolve into a super human in one generation. it would take decades of selective breeding to achieve that. if they were than every player would be the son of a former NBA player and a former WNBA player. not the children of everyday people.

larry bird would have access to the same resources current players do and he would benefit in the same way, so his lack of physical fitness by todays standards would be improved anyway creating a level playing field.

also imagine if he had a shooting sleeve and longer shorts, then he would seriously LOOK more business........ :)

[Cooper21]

Why does Bird have to have this elite speed and quickness. He was 6-9 240 pounds and his shot was impossible to block because of how he shot it. Bird was guarded by many athetic players with 40 inch verticals and lit them up.

Dominque Wilkins - 43 inch vertical

Michael Cooper - 38 inch vertical

and More

I dont see Bruce Bowen or Shane Battier jumping out the gym and they are considered premiere defensive stoppers in this era.

Its hard to defend a guy who can catch and shoot immedietely off a screen from mid-range and distance and combine that with being 6-9 240 pounds.

Dirk Nowitski won MVP 2 years ago and led the Mavs to the NBA Finals and i dont see him busting out 40 inch verticals. Bird is better than Dirk

[eliteballer]

(and about Bird being comparable to Dirk...Since when was Larry Bird 7'0''?)

Bird was a solid 6-10. 2 inches isnt a big deal.

[Scott Pippen]

a player does not evolve into a super human in one generation.

yes they do according to at least half of insidehoops NBA Forum. In 20 years we will see people doing 360 poster dunks from half court.:hammerhead:

[miller-time]

yes they do according to at least half of insidehoops NBA Forum.

a fact that is scary as sh*t.

an analogy to explain this would be that physicits today know more than issac newton, but if he were alive today he would still be able to work on physics. 300 years = nothing in mental ability. how does 15 years = a completely new phyiscal design for basketball players?

[Da_Realist]

Game 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGJLMRQHuKQ)

[Scott Pippen]

a fact that is scary as sh*t.

an analogy to explain this would be that physicits today know more than issac newton, but if he were alive today he would still be able to work on physics. 300 years = nothing in mental ability. how does 15 years = a completely new physical design for basketball players?

I have even seen people before say that this era is "much better and separated" from 2000:banghead:

The NBA has succeeding bringing new fans this decade. SC, rule changes, and another thing is more scrutinized media. I do not care at all about "access pass" or personal life or seeing a day in the life of LeBron or Kobe. This is why ABC is the **** of broadcasting. Even my old HS basketball commentator broadcast is better than ABC. MJ was right. He was great, but he ruined the game along with media. He allowed people to dream and we saw too many of the same type of player.

It is just beginning to come back to life with great team matchups now like Lakers and Celtics. The 2 best players in the NBA this year are actually not on **** teams anymore and we do not have to see one man shows followed by 1st & 2nd round exits. This might all seem like rambling and uneducated talk, but to understand the newer fans you have to think like them. And this year will be great including all playoffs. The NBA is being resurrected:applause:

[stephanieg]

Oh man, that was a fun thread.

But seriously, wasn't there a playoff series where Bird ate nothing but potato chips and 7-up for like a week? I can't remember where I read that. Maybe basketbawful. I guess that's not all too different than KG not sleeping for like three days straight.

Again, in all seriousness, Bird owns Dirk if for no other reason than he can actually post up (and Bird is pretty damned strong). Go watch some old Bulls and Celtics highlights if you want. Bird just backs down Pippen and he can't do anything about it but call for help. Dirk gets checked by Captain Jack and James Posey.

[plowking]

So where would players like Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Duncan be rated if they played in the 80's? Also, what kind of stats would they have averaged?

[stephanieg]

So where would players like Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Duncan be rated if they played in the 80's? Also, what kind of stats would they have averaged?

It really depends on their team IMO. I think Duncan would be the one who comes out with the most improvement. The Spurs are a plodding team. His scoring wouldn't be too different but his rebounds and assists would look much improved.

If LeBron played in the early 80s he'd be a threat to repeat the Big O's triple double season.

Also, Golden Era? How about Platinum.

[Indian guy]

He'd certainly be in the Top 3. I think he'd have issues guarding players. Offensively...if Dirk can consistently average around 25 or better on good efficiency; then Bird, being the significantly superior player skill-wise would easily do better. Bird's also not the white stiff he's made out to be. He had the necessary athletic skills requried for an already super-skilled player to be a great scorer - great first step, good agility and body control(superior to Dirk in all 3 of those categories).

And I'm hardly a guy living in the past. I'll be the first to say D is better today then it was pre-mid 90's. Every players' offensive efficiency prior to that period would be lower in today's league. I can't take anyone who disagrees with that seriously.

[Loki]

So where would players like Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Duncan be rated if they played in the 80's? Also, what kind of stats would they have averaged?

You go first. Curious to see how much you overrate some of these guys.

[ShamRockStar]

Bird wasn't even remotely close to being as athletic as Dirk.

How old are you?

Dirk couldn't handle the physical punishment Bird took in the post for a week, he would be sitting on the bench icing his hoo hah.

Larry pre back injury in his prime when he won 3 str8t MVPs was more athletic than Dirk for sure.

- He was quicker laterally
- He was stronger and showed it by battling for post position

Look at that play he made in 81 in the playoffs where he shot the 3 and knew it was off right and he followed his shot and baseline he jumped caught it turned and sank the shot as he was fading out of bounds.


Dirk has bad legs, 1 longer than the other and he can't take banging in the post, and lives on the midrange and outside fadeaway, he used to occasionally throw down a jam a few years ago, but there is no way he is a far superior athlete to Bird.


Watch KBlaze's mix, shows some of the physicality of the 80s game and some of Birds ability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvo7__wwBU

[miles berg]

Im not saying Dirk is better than Bird circa 80-88, I am just saying that he is better at creating his own shot and is a better penetrator. Birds career best FTA per game is around 6.0 per game, Dirk has topped that in 7 of his 10 seasons with a career high of 9.1 FTA per game. He obviously knows how to penetrate, you don't get those types of FTAs as a big man with very little post game by just shooting jumpshots.

Somewhere in there he has taken his man off of the dribble, the guy has had over four seasons of 7+ FTA per game, he hasn't gotten all of those just standing behind the arc shooting 3s like some of you like to paint his game out to be.

My point is that, yes, Bird would be one of the best players in the league, probably the best since Duncan is one a slow decline and LeBron has yet to reach his peak. Those are the only two in the league that have a shot at Bird, I realize this.

[Loki]

Im not saying Dirk is better than Bird circa 80-88, I am just saying that he is better at creating his own shot and is a better penetrator. Birds career best FTA per game is around 6.0 per game, Dirk has topped that in 7 of his 10 seasons with a career high of 9.1 FTA per game. He obviously knows how to penetrate, you don't get those types of FTAs as a big man with very little post game by just shooting jumpshots.

Kobe had 3 seasons of 10+ FTA and another of 9+ FTA shooting jumpers on 80% of his shot attempts, so I'm not sure if that proves anything.

If you want to argue that Dirk is a superior penetrator, fine, it's arguable. But anyone who watched Bird can tell you that he was a better shot creator than Dirk.

[miles berg]

How old are you?

Dirk couldn't handle the physical punishment Bird took in the post for a week, he would be sitting on the bench icing his hoo hah.

Larry pre back injury in his prime when he won 3 str8t MVPs was more athletic than Dirk for sure.

- He was quicker laterally
- He was stronger and showed it by battling for post position

Look at that play he made in 81 in the playoffs where he shot the 3 and knew it was off right and he followed his shot and baseline he jumped caught it turned and sank the shot as he was fading out of bounds.


Dirk has bad legs, 1 longer than the other and he can't take banging in the post, and lives on the midrange and outside fadeaway, he used to occasionally throw down a jam a few years ago, but there is no way he is a far superior athlete to Bird.


Watch KBlaze's mix, shows some of the physicality of the 80s game and some of Birds ability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvo7__wwBU

Again, more generalizations. When is the last time Dirk played in less than 76 games? The guy got his ****ing teeth knocked out in the 2001 playoffs and returned in less than a minutes worth of game time to drop 33 pts on Duncan/Robinson and push the Mavs to a Game 5 in that series. The guy could barely run last year and returned to take the struggling Mavs to the playoffs and then led the entire NBA in PER in the playoffs.

You keep making crap up all you want, no one in the league today plays through more pain than Dirk. The guys ankles have been gone for years and he never misses games, ever. The guy averages over 7 FTA per game but somehow people like you that watch two quarters of Mavs games each year not only draw conclusions about Dirk but pass them off as fact to anyone that will listen to you.

Sorry bud, to answer your question, Im 30, been watching since I was 5 years old in '83, you can't rewrite history for me. Yes, Bird won 3 MVPs in a row, but a strong argument could be made that Dirk should have won in 05/06 and that was without Kevin McHale & Robert Parish with him on the frontline. You tell me, would you be more successful with McHale & Parish or Dampier & Diop?

[plowking]

You go first. Curious to see how much you overrate some of these guys.

Kobe in his prime, probably a 32, 6 and 6 being his best season.

Lebron due to using brute strength more then anything, would have a best season of maybe 28, 8 and 10 assists.

Wade maybe a 28, 5 and 10 on higher FG% then both Kobe and Lebron.

Duncan, not too sure. I personally think he would come off worst.

[Scott Pippen]

Kobe in his prime, probably a 32, 6 and 6 being his best season.

Lebron due to using brute strength more then anything, would have a best season of maybe 28, 8 and 10 assists.

Wade maybe a 28, 5 and 10 on higher FG% then both Kobe and Lebron.

Duncan, not too sure. I personally think he would come off worst.

why?:confusedshrug:

[ShamRockStar]

on set plays at the end of games, Bird would tell the defender that he was going to shoot it from a certain spot and hit it and there was nothing they could do to stop him.

So he could get his shot off on his man when he tells him exactly what he was going to do.

[D.J.]

on set plays at the end of games, Bird would tell the defender that he was going to shoot it from a certain spot and hit it and there was nothing they could do to stop him.

So he could get his shot off on his man when he tells him exactly what he was going to do.


I was watching a Larry Bird special and that is exactly what he did to Xavier McDaniel during one game. Bird joked that he didn't mean to leave any time on the clock. McDaniel was probably the toughest player in the league during his time, so anyone that could do that to him and live to tell about it has to be a great player.

[Loki]

Kobe in his prime, probably a 32, 6 and 6 being his best season.

Reasonable, mostly in line with what I think. I'd even say 33-34/6/6 as his best season on like 48% FG or so.


Lebron due to using brute strength more then anything, would have a best season of maybe 28, 8 and 10 assists.

Possibly, but I doubt it. Jordan averaged 29.5 pts/9.5 reb/10.4 ast/52.5% FG over the final 25 games of the '89 season after being moved to PG, but it's a bit different to do it over a full season. Lebron isn't as good as Jordan imo. I'd say 30/8.5/8/51% FG as Lebron's best season. Maybe if he were on a fast-paced team like Denver back then he'd get to 28/8/10. Maybe.


Wade maybe a 28, 5 and 10 on higher FG% then both Kobe and Lebron.

:oldlol:

No way imo. Wade would be around 26-29 pts/6 reb/6.5-8 ast with the best FG% out of the three.

[eliteballer]

Kobe dropped 35 on a bad knee. He would easily better that healthy in the 80's. Also, plowkings Wade homerism continues to amuse:roll:

[plowking]

Reasonable, mostly in line with what I think. I'd even say 33-34/6/6 as his best season on like 48% FG or so.



Possibly, but I doubt it. Jordan averaged 29.5 pts/9.5 reb/10.4 ast/52.5% FG over the final 25 games of the '89 season after being moved to PG, but it's a bit different to do it over a full season. Lebron isn't as good as Jordan imo. I'd say 30/8.5/8/51% FG as Lebron's best season. Maybe if he were on a fast-paced team like Denver back then he'd get to 28/8/10. Maybe.



:oldlol:

No way imo. Wade would be around 26-29 pts/6 reb/6.5-8 ast with the best FG% out of the three.

So Wade playing on a half court team averaging 8 assists last year, couldn't average 10 assists in the 80's in a more free flowing game at a faster pace?

[plowking]

Kobe dropped 35 on a bad knee. He would easily better that healthy in the 80's. Also, plowkings Wade homerism continues to amuse:roll:

Where was the homerism?

You are the one saying Kobe could easily drop more then 35. If you noticed, throughout the stats I posted, Wade's line was the least impressive.

Hey guess what, Kobe still couldn't win any championships as the main guy whichever era you put him in.

[miles berg]

I was watching a Larry Bird special and that is exactly what he did to Xavier McDaniel during one game. Bird joked that he didn't mean to leave any time on the clock. McDaniel was probably the toughest player in the league during his time, so anyone that could do that to him and live to tell about it has to be a great player.

And no one is saying Bird wasn't a great player, he is a top 5 guy all time, IMO #4. I definitely am not saying he wasn't great. He was like my hero growing up. I watched him and his Celtics for four years before I even watched of the Mavs. I didnt have cable, the Mavs werent really great until '87-'88, I never heard about them, I only saw what I saw on TV. I didnt have RAYCOM, I had CBS, and Larry Bird lived there. I remember listening to WBAP Radio and hearing Randy Galloway talk about Mark "McGwire" one day and I asked my dad how the Mavs (had vaguely heard of them) got Mark McGwire when he was a baseball player? It was then when I learned all about Mark Aguirre & the Mavs. I then started going to my friends house so I could watch Mavs games on cable and the rest is history.

I am just saying that todays players are grrrreat players that dont have the 15 years of nostalgia in their favor. Everyone keeps posting youtubes of these great players but I could just as easily post the youtube of TMac (48) -vs- Dirk (53) and make Dirk looks superhuman.

I think the Golden Era of the NBA was the 80-93 era, especially the pre-expansion 80s where the salaries were in control, free agency was non-existant, and the league was so great, 24 or so teams and the best teams having 3 or more great players. I just think that todays players are overlooked.

[eliteballer]

Well, let's see. Kobe averaged 35 per game on a chronically bad knee that need surgery in THIS era. Since you believe it would be easier in the 80's, it's safe to say you would AGREE that a healthy Kobe in that era would easily do 35+. As for Wade, his best season playing more than 50 games he averaged 27 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg. How all of a sudden his stats jump like that when he wouldnt' have a 20/9 Shaq I dont know

[plowking]

Kobe dropped 35 on a bad knee. He would easily better that healthy in the 80's. Also, plowkings Wade homerism continues to amuse:roll:

Yes you are right, the stat lines I posted were absurd. Let me try again:

Kobe: 45, 8, 9 on 57% shooting

Wade: 11, 2, 4 on 39%

Lebron: 17, 6 and 3 on 42%


That looks a lot better.

[D.J.]

And no one is saying Bird wasn't a great player, he is a top 5 guy all time, IMO #4. I definitely am not saying he wasn't great. He was like my hero growing up. I watched him and his Celtics for four years before I even watched of the Mavs. I didnt have cable, the Mavs werent really great until '87-'88, I never heard about them, I only saw what I saw on TV. I didnt have RAYCOM, I had CBS, and Larry Bird lived there. I remember listening to WBAP Radio and hearing Randy Galloway talk about Mark "McGwire" one day and I asked my dad how the Mavs (had vaguely heard of them) got Mark McGwire when he was a baseball player? It was then when I learned all about Mark Aguirre & the Mavs. I then started going to my friends house so I could watch Mavs games on cable and the rest is history.

I am just saying that todays players are grrrreat players that dont have the 15 years of nostalgia in their favor. Everyone keeps posting youtubes of these great players but I could just as easily post the youtube of TMac (48) -vs- Dirk (53) and make Dirk looks superhuman.

I think the Golden Era of the NBA was the 80-93 era, especially the pre-expansion 80s where the salaries were in control, free agency was non-existant, and the league was so great, 24 or so teams and the best teams having 3 or more great players. I just think that todays players are overlooked.


There are some great players today. Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Dwight Howard, and Garnett are just some of those players. The main difference between players today and those that played in the 90s and prior is the fundamentals. The players today are easily more athletic and in better physical condition, but it seems as if that's where they spend most of their time.

Bird is easily top five in the all-time list. Number four very well may be the case. I started watching the NBA in '86 and I believe the golden years ended a little more than 10 years ago. I enjoyed watching the NBA in the late 80s and early 90s.

Bottom line is some of the current players are overlooked, but the majority are no where near the guys from 15+ years ago and that is why guys like Kobe and LeBron are overlooked.

[plowking]

Well, let's see. Kobe averaged 35 per game on a chronically bad knee that need surgery in THIS era. Since you believe it would be easier in the 80's, it's safe to say you would AGREE that a healthy Kobe in that era would easily do 35+. As for Wade, his best season playing more than 50 games he averaged 27 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg. How all of a sudden his stats jump like that when he wouldnt' have a 20/9 Shaq I dont know

How would Kobe win a championship without Shaq?

I focused on different rule changes, and mentioned that players score in different ways today. I even said in an earlier post that the late 80's, early 90's were the peak. More due to the entertainment purpose and the free flowing game.

Who says Kobe couldn't score more back then? I simply said that would be his best season, not best scoring season. All you Kobe fanboys are obsessed with his scoring numbers, thinking if you have the most points you are the best. I don't even consider Kobe's 35ppg season his best.

[eliteballer]

Let me put it this way plowking. You're basically saying Wade would be dropping a better statline than Bird and Magic. Get real:oldlol:

[miles berg]

There are some great players today. Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Dwight Howard, and Garnett are just some of those players. The main difference between players today and those that played in the 90s and prior is the fundamentals. The players today are easily more athletic and in better physical condition, but it seems as if that's where they spend most of their time.

Bird is easily top five in the all-time list. Number four very well may be the case. I started watching the NBA in '86 and I believe the golden years ended a little more than 10 years ago. I enjoyed watching the NBA in the late 80s and early 90s.

Bottom line is some of the current players are overlooked, but the majority are no where near the guys from 15+ years ago and that is why guys like Kobe and LeBron are overlooked.

Oh, I dont think either of those guys are overlooked. I am talking about guys like Dirk & Steve Nash (he is so hated on it is ridiculous, watch the guy play, it is like art). These guys get absolutely zero respect but, year after year, they accomplish as much, if not more, than anyone not named Shaq or Duncan.

Oh well, I am done ranting.

[Scott Pippen]

Yes you are right, the stat lines I posted were absurd. Let me try again:

Kobe: 45, 8, 9 on 57% shooting

Wade: 11, 2, 4 on 39%

Lebron: 17, 6 and 3 on 42%


That looks a lot better.
stop underrating Kobe you dirty hater:no:

[plowking]

Let me put it this way plowking. You're basically saying Wade would be dropping a better statline than Bird and Magic. Get real:oldlol:

You are saying the same thing about Kobe.

Since when is Kobe miles better then Wade? Oh wait, he's not.

[Loki]

Kobe dropped 35 on a bad knee. He would easily better that healthy in the 80's. Also, plowkings Wade homerism continues to amuse:roll:

He wouldn't be getting nearly as many FT's in the 80's, and if he was, it would mean that he wasn't taking (and hence not making) as many 3's. This would be balanced by a higher overall FG% to bring him to about what I said he'd average.

[Loki]

Let me put it this way plowking. You're basically saying Wade would be dropping a better statline than Bird and Magic. Get real:oldlol:

And you think Kobe would post and equal or better line than Jordan. Which is more crazy? :oldlol:

[plowking]

He wouldn't be getting nearly as many FT's in the 80's, and if he was, he wouldn't be taking (and hence not making) as many 3's. This would be balanced by a higher overall FG% to bring him to about what I said he'd average.

He fails to understand. If you noticed eliteballer, due to zone, players have been forced to take more jumpshots, particullarly 3's. Now that Kobe wouldn't be forced by the zone into jumpshots, he would take less 3's and go to the hole more (like he should have against Boston in the finals).

[miles berg]

What is the average FTA/game in 1988 -vs- the average FTA/game in 2008?

I would just like to know.

[plowking]

So Loki you believe Wade would not be able to average 2 more assists in a faster paced basketball era which was more free flowing and less stop-start? I disagree. After all I said this would be his best season.

After all, Wade has a very good apg career average. Probably one of the best for SG's. I honestly believe he would be able to pull those numbers.

[D.J.]

What is the average FTA/game in 1988 -vs- the average FTA/game in 2008?

I would just like to know.


1987-88- 29.1

2007-08- 24.9

[plowking]

1987-88- 29.1

2007-08- 24.9

Where did you get those stats?

[D.J.]

Where did you get those stats?


Basketball reference. It was the league average for those seasons.

[miles berg]

That is a very, very interesting and telling stat Dr. J.

[ihatetmac2524]

Anyone want to bet this guy started this thread in hopes it would turn into a, "OMG YOU DIDNT NAME KOBE OR WADE AS TOP PLAYERS BLAH BLAH BLAH" lol.

[Sir Charles]

Where did all the Kiddos Go? :rolleyes: :roll:

[97 bulls]

:applause: :roll: :ohwell:

Bird Would School the NBA filled with thugs that can jump cool but don`t know how to think, playr and lack fundamentals
this is the second time you mentioned todays nba players as thugs. the nba doesnt have a bunch of thugs were are you getting this from? i cant even think of a thug in the nba now.

[97 bulls]

Yes you are right, the stat lines I posted were absurd. Let me try again:

Kobe: 45, 8, 9 on 57% shooting

Wade: 11, 2, 4 on 39%

Lebron: 17, 6 and 3 on 42%


That looks a lot better.
lol good one

[RonySeikalyFTW]

I posted this in another forum's thread about basketball, and why "white Euros" are doing better in the NBA than "white Americans":


Because foreign countries focus on fundamentals, something anyone can learn if they put in the hard work, regardless of how athletic you are (you do have to have some degree of athletic ability, of course, but you know what I mean).

In America, it's all about money, and David Stern made the mistake in thinking that what we want to see is flashy, above-the-rim basketball. Before he embraced the triangle offense and developed a consistent jump shot, Michael Jordan, even though I consider him the most dominant athlete in the history of team sports, was largely to blame for this. Before MJ took off, the Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers were winning with well-executed, efficient, fundamental basketball. But "Be Like Mike" didn't exactly imply running the three man weave or pick and roll drills. So you had a generation of young boys who would go on to be today's NBAers practicing their dunks on 7-foot rims instead of developing their jump shot or ball handling skills or the art of the bounce pass.

MJ's enormous popularity and Stern's intent to capitalize on it had a trickle down effect. A new trend began. NBA franchises bought into the idea that this above-the-rim style would put more fans in their arenas, and everyone wanted to draft the next Air Jordan. College basketball programs and coaches are judged largely by the number of players they put into the NBA, so a lot college coaches began recruiting based on a kid's vertical leap. The less athletic kids rode the pine and were never really developed. Top high school basketball programs earn that designation because they get their players recruited. So during tryouts, the kid with the nice jumper and basketball instinct is passed over for the kid who can dunk.

Lost amidst this revolution of new, exciting ball being dominated by freakish athletic specimens, was fundamentals. But what Stern, NBA franchises, college programs, and high school programs all failed to realize, is that there is, and will only ever be, one Michael Jordan.

So unless they're there to simply be a big body or a one-dimensional 3-point specialist, white Americans have basically become obsolete in today's NBA. The few that do make it into the league are generally less athletic and don't posses the fundamental skills they should have received in college that their European counterparts have been drilled on since their youths.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f74/white-americans-nba-820805/#post24673306

Might be a bit deep for this forum, but I think it presents a sound argument for Larry Bird in today's NBA.

[ballhog]

ahh the good old days.

[allball]

yeah too bad Bird can't play with these cats today though :hammerhead:

[Sir Charles]

yeah too bad Bird can't play with these cats today though :hammerhead:

:roll:

He was guarded by 6`10 Horace Grant and destroyed him in the Post: 6-10 / 2,08. Weight: 245 lbs

A 34 Year Old Bird Schooling 25 year old PF Horace Grant in POST PLAY

A Bird..today would be a 240 lbs 6`9 1/2 Smallforward that is more:

-Skilled than any player in the League
-Both Handed Passing and Shooting
-Best Shooter in the League
-Best Passing Forward in the League
-Best Rebounding Skilled Player (no the top rebounder but skill wise the Best) not to mention SF
-Most Creative and Talented Player: Which would Even Have More Impact because the Game is Slower (like the E. COnference of the 80s) which will have him become an even better Team Defender.
- Smartest Player of all time in Today`s Unfundamental Game, Smartest Player there Would Ever Be.
- Has all the fundamentals: All!
- Clutchest player among All
- Most Competitive Player in the League (hates to loose more than Any)

A 81 to 86 Prime Bird (ages 22-30 span) would average 28-32 (50-54% FG), 12-10 RPG, 8-9 APG with ease and in his 30-35 year spanhe would average 22-26 PPG (47-50%), 9-10 RPG, 7-8 APG.

Bird would be the Best Player in the League as Jordan said: The Most Complete and Smartest Player He Ever Saw :eek: :violin: :confusedshrug:

[Sir Charles]

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=NTqDdZz2dHM

Taking to School (Teaching Some Basic Post Play) in the Post on: Short and Weak 6`10 ft Horace Grant

6`10 ft Horace Grant

6-10 / 2,08. Weight: 245 lbs

BIRD AT AGE 34! and Grant at age 25

A Bird..today would be a 240 lbs 6`9 1/2 Smallforward that is more:

-Skilled than any player in the League
-Both Handed Passing and Shooting
-Best Shooter in the League
-Best Passing Forward in the League
-Best Rebounding Skilled Player (no the top rebounder but skill wise the Best) not to mention SF
-Most Creative and Talented Player: Which would Even Have More Impact because the Game is Slower (like the E. COnference of the 80s) which will have him become an even better Team Defender.
- Smartest Player of all time in Today`s Unfundamental Game, Smartest Player there Would Ever Be.
- Has all the fundamentals: All!
- Clutchest player among All
- Most Competitive Player in the League (hates to loose more than Any)

A 81 to 86 Prime Bird (ages 22-30 span) would average 28-32 (50-54% FG), 12-10 RPG, 8-9 APG with ease and in his 30-35 year spanhe would average 22-26 PPG (47-50%), 9-10 RPG, 7-8 APG.

Bird would be the Best Player in the League as Jordan said: The Most Complete and Smartest Player He Ever Saw :eek: :violin: :confusedshrug:

[plowking]

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=NTqDdZz2dHM

Taking to School (Teaching Some Basic Post Play) in the Post on: Short and Weak 6`10 ft Horace Grant

6`10 ft Horace Grant

6-10 / 2,08. Weight: 245 lbs

A Bird..today would be a 240 lbs 6`9 1/2 Smallforward that is more:

-Skilled than any player in the League
-Both Handed Passing and Shooting
-Best Shooter in the League
-Best Passing Forward in the League
-Best Rebounding Skilled Player (no the top rebounder but skill wise the Best) not to mention SF
-Most Creative and Talented Player: Which would Even Have More Impact because the Game is Slower (like the E. COnference of the 80s) which will have him become an even better Team Defender.
- Smartest Player of all time in Today`s Unfundamental Game, Smartest Player there Would Ever Be.
- Has all the fundamentals: All!
- Clutchest player among All
- Most Competitive Player in the League (hates to loose more than Any)

A 81 to 86 Prime Bird (ages 22-30 span) would average 28-32 (50-54% FG), 12-10 RPG, 8-9 APG with ease and in his 30-35 year spanhe would average 22-26 PPG (47-50%), 9-10 RPG, 7-8 APG.

Bird would be the Best Player in the League as Jordan said: The Most Complete and Smartest Player He Ever Saw :eek: :violin: :confusedshrug:

So how come there are more free throws being taken in the 80's the now Sir Charles. I thought todays game is soft and full of thugs.

[Sir Charles]

So how come there are more free throws being taken in the 80's the now Sir Charles. I thought todays game is soft and full of thugs.

The Game was faster paced in general do to superior Ball Handling and Passing Game on Forwards althoug in the East Coast it was a bit different more close to the late 90s Games and actual Game:There was a tendacy (especially in the West) to choose Faster and Quicker SFs and PFs.

For example the 6`11-7`1 Centers that adapted to the Powerforward spot like of those in the last 10 years where less common (the McHales, Kevin Willis, Roy Tarpley`s) and where called CFs not Powerforwards. Before we had the Barkley, Worthy, Malone, Larry Nance, Ralph Sampson type of Powerforwarrds that Where Faster and More Potent, that could DRIVE TO THE BASKET at any MOMENT like a Train and Play at a Fast Paced Alll Day Long.

Today`s PFs are Slower more McHale like if you want to say but CAN`T PLAY WORTH SHI*T IN THE POST COMPARED to :rolleyes: that of McHale.

What we have today is Hard Working Bad Centers at Average and next to them FC`s that back in the 80s Game would be Centers...This has made the league slower.

Players back then where also Faster, Better Ball Handlers, Sleeky, Had Superior Foot Work and Superior Ball Movemtn Notion for Fast Breaks etc.

Here is your Soft 80s League:

Normal 80s Fouls

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kYtjs0FqxoM&NR=1

[plowking]

The Game was faster paced in general do to superior Ball Handling and Passing Game on Forwards althoug in the East Coast it was a bit different more close to the late 90s Games and actual Game:There was a tendacy (especially in the West) to choose Faster and Quicker SFs and PFs.

For example the 6`11-7`1 Centers that adapted to the Powerforward spot like of those in the last 10 years where less common (the McHales, Kevin Willis, Roy Tarpley`s) and where called CFs not Powerforwards. Before we had the Barkley, Worthy, Malone, Larry Nance, Ralph Sampson type of Powerforwarrds that Where Faster and More Potent, that could DRIVE TO THE BASKET at any MOMENT like a Train and Play at a Fast Paced Alll Day Long.

Today`s PFs are Slower more McHale like if you want to say but CAN`T PLAY WORTH SHI*T IN THE POST COMPARED to :rolleyes: that of McHale.

What we have today is Hard Working Bad Centers at Average and next to them FC`s that back in the 80s Game would be Centers...This has made the league slower.

Players back then where also Faster, Better Ball Handlers, Sleeky, Had Superior Foot Work and Superior Ball Movemtn Notion for Fast Breaks etc.

Here is your Soft 80s League:

Normal 80s Fouls

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kYtjs0FqxoM&NR=1

You are right, this era sucks at everything. The previous era is better at everything and this era isn't close.












:rolleyes:

[Sir Charles]

You are right, this era sucks at everything. The previous era is better at everything and this era isn't close.


:rolleyes:

Don`t get mad at me :rolleyes: :confusedshrug: this era has gotten bulkier, stronger physically not because the players are "naturally stronger" themselves but do to vitamins and superior weight lifting programs there is (as you can see how many 80s players that played till 1998 in those late 90s and 200s where more fitting looking or muscule toned players , for example Karl Malone ) but in things like: Fundamentals, B-Ball IQ, Passing Game, Offensive Notion on Fast Breaks, Ball Movement, Shot Selection etc it has gotten Scaredly Worst.

This decline began not in the 2000s (your era) my friend but the Mid 90s just as ....the watering down of the league and actuall rule changes that easened perimter player`s job to penetrate and ofcourse softness of the game began around 92-93, the Early 90s.

The game`s level has gained physically at average (weight not height) but has declined in Fundamentals-Skills etc, Overal Competition of Hight Quality (Just American`s tha had High Fundamentals Playing The Sport AND VERY FEW MAKING IT TO THE NBA) and gotten Soft an Easier in the past 15 years.

Its not your fault or mine its visible everywhere and it is Stern that has fuc*****ked up the NBA no the Fans in the Us Or Worldwide:confusedshrug:

[Thorpesaurous]

So how come there are more free throws being taken in the 80's the now Sir Charles. I thought todays game is soft and full of thugs.

I think a lot of the increase in FT is related to the on ball touch fouls that became so prominent in the last four or five years. Teams are getting buried in bonus situations because refs are making tick tack calls on the ball, and probably even more so in terms of percentage versus years ago off the ball. Especially early in the game when they're trying to set a standard for the game. And every year it's at it's worst at the start of the season, then tapers off.
Anyway, there's some interesting stuff in this thread if you can sift through all the crap. And while I disagree to an extent with Miles and Plowking, you've both made some good cases.

That's a great post from RonySeikley too.

[Psileas]

It took a very long time till someone posted at last videos of Bird's dominance in individual playoff games.
A question: Do you plan to expand this project for more series?

[Sir Charles]

It took a very long time till someone posted at last videos of Bird's dominance in individual playoff games.
A question: Do you plan to expand this project for more series?

:applause: :rockon: :cheers:

[Sir Charles]

Celtics vs Lakers 1986-87 Season:

Bird: 37 Points (13-35), 10 Assits and 5 Rebounds
Jordan: 48 Points (17-33), 5 Rebounds, 2 Steals

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=LyABFY_LcEI

:applause:

Bird`s Post Game and Passing Game is Unrepeatable from the SF Spot

[inclinerator]

can u please post 100 more different games in this thread please

[Sir Charles]

http://www.michaeljordan.pl/wywiad_michael_jordan_5ang.php

MRS: Michael, I'm now giving you the opportunity to create the Dream Team of Michael Jordan, of all players of basketball. You're on the team, and you can name four other guys at different positions. That doesn't mean there aren't 20 other great guys for those positions, but you can explain your picks.

Power forward: There's James Worthy, whom I love, and he is a North Carolina guy. Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, whom I adore and is a good friend, and Charles Oakley. But in terms again of versatility, it has to be Larry Bird. The things he could provide to you all around: his demeanor, his work ethic and his versatility once again.

The idea here is I would build a versatile, multitalented team able to do so many different things. When the defense comes at you, they have to guard a lot of different areas, and that makes Larry Bird the choice for me.

[Godfather]

MJ also picked Kwame Brown and Adam Morrison as his stars for the future. Give it up athletic talents such as Charles Barkley and Karl Malone could have dominated in today's game, but Larry Bird just isn't athletic enough. His fundamentals however would make him a very good player in today's game, just not elite.

[Da_Realist]

It took a very long time till someone posted at last videos of Bird's dominance in individual playoff games.
A question: Do you plan to expand this project for more series?

Definitely. I would like to do one on Magic Johnson in the 87 Finals sometime soon. I am thinking about Isiah Thomas in 1990 Finals against Portland, but I have to re-watch the series to make sure. I remember he had a pretty good series.

I want to do a spotlight on Hakeem Olajuwon but I hadn't decided on which series yet. Maybe the 95 WCF against San Antonio. Or maybe the 94 Finals against New York. A series that captures the essence of his game.

Maybe Shaq in 2000 Finals? Or 2001? The only problem is he didn't really play anybody in those series... but he was so dominant I may do it anyway. Now that I think about it...he deserves it.

Tim Duncan deserves one too.

I'm really flying by the seat of my pants, though.

[Sir Charles]

MJ also picked Kwame Brown and Adam Morrison as his stars for the future. Give it up athletic talents such as Charles Barkley and Karl Malone could have dominated in today's game, but Larry Bird just isn't athletic enough. His fundamentals however would make him a very good player in today's game, just not elite.

1979-1986 is as Athletic as most 6`9 1/2 players today except he can Shoot Better than Any Player Today, Pass Better than Any SF Today, Rebound Better than any SF Today, See Better than Any Player Ever, Think Better than Any Player Ever, Hustle Better than Every Player Today, Be Clutch Better etc etc

Think of:

Gasol with the Offensive Talents of Dirk and the Passing Ability of Lebron and the Clutch Game of Miller and Jordan. Along with that bring the The Highest B-Ball IQ and Court Awareness Ever in NBA History and With 110% FUNDAMENTALS and you got Bird.

Today`s Slower Paced Game with Lack of Fundamentals (contraty to the Superior More Agil, Potent, Ball Handling and Fast Paced Team Oriented Game of the 80s: especially W.Coast) would be Larry`s Playground :pimp: :rolleyes: :pimp:

Bird was seen as an unethletic Hick All his Life and that was exactly what he wanted people to think. He thrived on that actually

Two Unathletic and Slow Players that Guarded Bird:

6`9 Unathletic James Worthy: "Bird is the Hardest Forward I Ever Had to Guard"

6`6 Unathletic Dr. J: "If you Believed that Hick from French Lick Apperance, You Where Going to Get Beaten"

:sleeping :roll:

[Psileas]

These are the series I was thinking about, as well, as well as Kareem's 1985. Jordan's best ones, of course, though there may have been a couple of people who have done so, already (Joleroke (sp?), maybe).

[Psileas]

Oh, and take your time, obviously. Few manage to watch all your videos at that rate, anyway.

[Maniak]

Unathletic...Dr. J.....?

**** you are an idiot

[Da_Realist]

Oh, and take your time, obviously. Few manage to watch all your videos at that rate, anyway.

Thanks. I try to slow things down from time to time but then another idea or a series will come to mind and I end up posting it anyway. Drives my wife nuts. She said I should get paid for it. :oldlol:

[insidehoops]

Unathletic...Dr. J.....?

**** you are an idiot
He's being sarastic

[Posts Penyeach]

Bird has the softest touch on his jumper I've ever seen.


Unbelievable. Look at the fake and pass at 3:46.
seconded :eek:

[Maniak]

He's being sarastic

This guy makes me lose it...

(Bird Sucked & Couldnt Have Played Today)

then he goes to say how these days it would all be Larrys playground...

Im sorry, but Im just totally lost here, thus the reason I try to draw away from paying attention to this guy, all I get is Charles is the GOAT then 10 emotes with all words in bold letters then a random youtube video

[Sir Charles]

He's being sarastic

Exactly...:hammerhead:

List of Unathletic and Slow players that guarded Larry Bird in the Perimeter

Doctor J, 6`9 James Worthy, Scottie Pippen, Drexler, Michael Cooper, Dominique Wilkins, Ron Harper, Adrian Dantley,...o Yes also..

List of Weak and Short Players that Guarded Larry Bird in the Post

6`11 John Salley, 6`9/257 lbs Karl Malone, Charles Barkley 6`5/6`4 260-80 lbs, Dennis Rodman (Could Guard 1-4 Positions), 6`10/245 lbs Horace Grant, 6`8/240 lbs Buck Williams, 6`7/234 lbs Xavier McDaniel etc..

Oh i forgot...:hammerhead:

List of Weak and Short players Larry Bird Guarded in the Post

6`9/265 lbs Antoine Carr, 7`0/245 lbs Kevin Willis, 6`9 James Worthy, 6`8 /250 lbs Terry Cummings etc..


:roll:

[Niquesports]

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Anatomically modern day humans have been on this planet for approximately 200,000 years. About 50,000 years ago they became behaviorally modern (see "the great leap forward"). Ever since then humans have been constantly changing their environment to suit their needs. The human body has also changed in response to agriculture, modern day food processing, pollution, and other aspects of modern day living which didn't exist on the African savanna.

Basketball was invented a little over a century ago. Ever since then the human genome has been constantly at work producing generation after generation of new NBA stars. It's how evolution works. Fans want good players. Mother nature responds by making basketball players of increasing quality or "fitness."

You think Bird is a good player because he looks great competing against equally bad players by today's standards. It'd be like if you played against fifth graders. Sure, you look good, but only by comparison. If Bird played today he would be extremely limited given his stiffness, immobility, non-European whiteness, and slow decision making skills compared to modern day blurs like Troy Murphy or Tim Duncan.

You have to understand that if Hedo Turkoglu was sent back in a time machine he would dominate the NBA that Bird and his contemporaries played in. But nowadays he's just an OK player. Things move so fast.

But we shouldn't look back on past weaker eras arrogantly. Bird retired only a generation ago. In another generation players will be dunking from the three point line and looking back at our era with equal derision.


This is so silly of a comparison to think that a player in todays game that is average at best is better than Bird makes no sense. If you wanna say a Lebron or Kobe is better than Bird thats one thing but Hedo ???????????
It must be understood that if Bob Cousy was to play in todays era it wouldn't be a 1950's Cousy it would be a cousy that grew up playing todays game it will be a Cousy that doesnt shoot set shots but shoots jumpers it would be a Cousy that doesnt wear Chuck Taylors he would have on Nikes

[highwhey]

Duncan isn't the most athletic guy ever to walk on the court...hence the name, "The Big Fundamental". :confusedshrug:


Why can't Larry Bird be elite(in Today's game)? Plus, if he was playing Today, then he would also have access to all the training/fitness equipment that Today's players have.

[Sir Charles]

Duncan isn't the most athletic guy ever to walk on the court...hence the name, "The Big Fundamental". :confusedshrug:

Why can't Larry Bird be elite(in Today's game)? Plus, if he was playing Today, then he would also have access to all the training/fitness equipment that Today's players have.

Is Gastol much athletic? Is Duncan much athletic? Is Kevin McHale much athletic?

And? They School Most Players Today and Back Then...

Athleticism es important but not the most important by the way Bird was 6`9 1/2 and between 81 and 86 (ages 25-30) he wasn`t that slow or unathletic. Ofcourse he was not gifted athletically but he was OVER GIFTED IN ALL OTHER AREAS. Not to mention Bird was thick boned way stronger than most people think just look at the people he guarded in the Post. Today a Bird would be around 240-245 lbs and would even be more musculed toned than before with the vitamins. Natural strength does not increase only overal strength from that and Bird has quite enough natural strength to Guard those dudes and be Guarded by all those dudes mentioned: Both in the Perimter and in the Post.

:confusedshrug: :banghead:

[FinishHim!]

this I found interesting for those who say that MJ didn't even like basketball:


MRS: Do you miss the excitement of basketball?
JORDAN: Yes. I have to stay away from it because of it. I wouldn't say it's an addiction, but it's a passion. When you have a passion, you want to do it as much as possible. Addiction means you can't help yourself. I have a strong passion for the game of basketball.

[guy]

One thing about how people say Bird was unathletic that I don't understand, is how was he much different then Magic? They had similar physiques, Magic was probably a bit faster, and both didn't have great vertical leaps. Yet Magic is considered to be a beast in just about any era, while Bird is unathletic and couldn't handle today's game. I'm really starting to think people just look at Bird's skin and short shorts and automatically assume he's unathletic. I'm one to think that past players aren't as athletic as today's players (disregarding that if they grew up in the same era it would be different), and whites generally aren't as athletic as blacks, but I don't think Larry Bird is someone that is really affected by that.

[RonySeikalyFTW]

MJ also picked Kwame Brown and Adam Morrison as his stars for the future. Give it up athletic talents such as Charles Barkley and Karl Malone could have dominated in today's game, but Larry Bird just isn't athletic enough. His fundamentals however would make him a very good player in today's game, just not elite.

Translation: Larry Bird is white and non-European, so he couldn't be elite today.

That's pretty much the core of any argument against Bird. So let's attack that racist myth. Bird had arguably the quickest and strongest hands in NBA history, lightning fast footwork and reflexes, now is that not athleticism? Since when did vertical leap become the end-all-be-all of athleticism?

[fefe]

It surely is interesting to see an arguement, wher sir charles supports a case which says Barkley is not the best PF ever :)

[loot]

MJ also picked Kwame Brown and Adam Morrison as his stars for the future.
:oldlol:

[Godfather]

Translation: Larry Bird is white and non-European, so he couldn't be elite today.

That's pretty much the core of any argument against Bird. So let's attack that racist myth. Bird had arguably the quickest and strongest hands in NBA history, lightning fast footwork and reflexes, now is that not athleticism? Since when did vertical leap become the end-all-be-all of athleticism?

For that matter I don't believe Magic could do what he did in his era. Magic would be unable to play all 5 positions like he did previously and would be unable to consistently run the point. Instead he would play a role similar to LeBron in the Cleveland passing scheme (be the secondary passer who can rack up assists) also he rebound and point total would also decline in today's game (due to being unable to have such authority around the rim). A player who could succeed in all facets (like I previously stated) was a Charles Barkley or a Karl Malone, who possess the all around athleticism to compare to and dominate today's players.

[Sir Charles]

For that matter I don't believe Magic could do what he did in his era. Magic would be unable to play all 5 positions like he did previously and would be unable to consistently run the point. Instead he would play a role similar to LeBron in the Cleveland passing scheme (be the secondary passer who can rack up assists) also he rebound and point total would also decline in today's game (due to being unable to have such authority around the rim). A player who could succeed in all facets (like I previously stated) was a Charles Barkley or a Karl Malone, who possess the all around athleticism to compare to and dominate today's players.

:roll: i can`t stand this sh-it anymore...people overrated athleticism too much. :rolleyes:

If athleticism was everything then Garnett would be a Better PF than Duncan he is way more athletic than Duncan, way More.

[Godfather]

:roll: i can`t stand this sh-it anymore...people overrated athleticism too much. :rolleyes:

If athleticism was everything then Garnett would be a Better PF than Duncan he is way more athletic than Duncan, way More.
Garnett is a stick...You cannot tell me Garnett is stronger than Tim Duncan. Duncan is not only physically stronger, but he is also has had superior coaching throughout his career. Don't start an argument about Duncan being that much superior to Garnett because he isn't.

Besides Garnett is 6'11'' and Timmy D is 7'0'' are big men not 6'9'' SF's.

[RonySeikalyFTW]

For that matter I don't believe Magic could do what he did in his era. Magic would be unable to play all 5 positions like he did previously and would be unable to consistently run the point. Instead he would play a role similar to LeBron in the Cleveland passing scheme (be the secondary passer who can rack up assists) also he rebound and point total would also decline in today's game (due to being unable to have such authority around the rim). A player who could succeed in all facets (like I previously stated) was a Charles Barkley or a Karl Malone, who possess the all around athleticism to compare to and dominate today's players.

So the same Magic Johnson that was 'athletic' enough to matchup with KJ (who would absolutely school any current NBA point guard in, say, the NFL combines for example, or any other measurement for that matter) and Top-50 NBAers Isiah Thomas and John Stockton couldn't hang with Steve Nash or Deron Williams or Chris Paul? LMAO. Could you imagine the fear in little Chris Paul's eyes as Magic brings the ball down the court, knowing he's going to get posted up and owned by the greatest QB in NBA history?

[Sir Charles]

Translation: Larry Bird is white and non-European, so he couldn't be elite today.

That's pretty much the core of any argument against Bird. So let's attack that racist myth. Bird had arguably the quickest and strongest hands in NBA history, lightning fast footwork and reflexes, now is that not athleticism? Since when did vertical leap become the end-all-be-all of athleticism?

Everyone said man this Country Boy Can`t Jump, Is Not Very Fast, Is Not the Strongest of 6`9/6`10ers...but then again...what happened?

And this is a time where the NBA had more RUnning Teams, Superior Ball Handlers, Passers, Superior IQ and Fundamentals...A time When Real Fouls Existed, Handchecking Was The Norm and Constant.

What happened?

Bird schooled and destroyed the NBA :confusedshrug:

Today`s game is Slow Half Court-like WHich is exactly BIRD`S NEST...That is his Game!, His Mind Gime!...Today`s Players Would be Fallen into His Style of Play except these players have:

ZERO B-BALL IQ, ZERO FUNDAMENTALS, ZERO INTELLIGENCE, ZERO COURT AWARENESS, ZERO BOXING OUT SKILLS, ZERO HEART, ZERO SKILL, ZERO PASSING, ZERO SHOOTING, ZERO CLUTCH when compared to Bird.

Bird would not only benefit more from the Slow Half Court game but the Zone Defense. Bird was a Free Defender that was always in the right place and right time.

To End this:

Bird was Black-Man`s Worst Nightmare to be Humilated By...Exactly What Most Overlooked: :oldlol: :cheers:

A Slow White Guy that Can`t Jump as the Stereotype

but he Schooled the NBA :violin:

Same with Magic, A Tall INTELLIGENT Black Player that Can`t Dunk Very Nice and Thinks Team 1st

Stereotype of the Black Man that Jumps High, Does Flashy Dunks and Thinks of Himself Before Winning

That is Magic and Bird will always be linked
That is Magic Schooled the NBA at age 36 play PF-Point Guard and humilated actual stars of today`s game in teh 2000s.


:sleeping

[Godfather]

So the same Magic Johnson that was 'athletic' enough to matchup with KJ (who would absolutely school any current NBA point guard in, say, the NFL combines for example, or any other measurement for that matter) and Top-50 NBAers Isiah Thomas and John Stockton couldn't hang with Steve Nash or Deron Williams or Chris Paul? LMAO. Could you imagine the fear in little Chris Paul's eyes as Magic brings the ball down the court, knowing he's going to get posted up and owned by the greatest QB in NBA history?

Lol you idiot the hornets wouldn't have Chris Paul guarding Magic Johnson (what is that a 9'' height difference)... I just think in today's game Magic would be an excellent player on an NBA wing directing an NBA offense like LeBron James does (or better), but would not be as efficient of a rebounder and scorer. And I never said anything abour John Stockton and Isiah.

[DuMa]

did he pick bird for the PF spot? then i'd have a problem

[Sir Charles]

Garnett is a stick...You cannot tell me Garnett is stronger than Tim Duncan. Duncan is not only physically stronger, but he is also has had superior coaching throughout his career. Don't start an argument about Duncan being that much superior to Garnett because he isn't.

Besides Garnett is 6'11'' and Timmy D is 7'0'' are big men not 6'9'' SF's.

Actually Garnett is like 7`0 ft but not as stocky and Tim is like 6`11 1/2 ft and stockier :rolleyes: :hammerhead: but yes Tim is Stronger and Heavier but then again also way slower Garnett can Leap, is Pure Fiber (like a Denni Rodman), Faster, Quicker, More Agil but Duncan can Score Well...Garnett can`t! :violin:

[Godfather]

Bird schooled and destroyed the NBA :confusedshrug:

Today`s game is Slow Half Court-like WHich is exactly BIRD`S NEST...That is his Game!, His Mind Gime!...Today`s Players Would be Fallen into His Style of Play except these players have:

ZERO B-BALL IQ, ZERO FUNDAMENTALS, ZERO INTELLIGENCE, ZERO COURT AWARENESS, ZERO BOXING OUT SKILLS, ZERO HEART, ZERO SKILL, ZERO PASSING, ZERO SHOOTING, ZERO CLUTCH when compared to Bird.

Bird would not only benefit more from the Slow Half Court game but the Zone Defense. Bird was a Free Defender that was always in the right place and right time.

To End this:

Bird was Black-Man`s Worst Nightmare to be Humilated By...Exactly What Most Overlooked: :oldlol: :cheers:

A Slow White Guy that Can`t Jump as the Stereotype

but he Schooled the NBA :violin:

Same with Magic, A Tall INTELLIGENT Black Player that Can`t Dunk Very Nice and Thinks Team 1st

Stereotype of the Black Man that Jumps High, Does Flashy Dunks and Thinks of Himself Before Winning

That is Magic and Bird will always be linked
That is Magic Schooled the NBA at age 36 play PF-Point Guard and humilated actual stars of today`s game in teh 2000s.


:sleeping

Magic came back in 1995 not 2000. And for the last ****ing time I said they would be good players in today's game not elite players. They would have an advantage fundamentals wise, but do not compare to the wing athletes of today. And you cannot tell me Bird would have the same impact in the posts today as he did in the 80's.

[Sir Charles]

Lol you idiot the hornets wouldn't have Chris Paul guarding Magic Johnson (what is that a 9'' height difference)... I just think in today's game Magic would be an excellent player on an NBA wing directing an NBA offense like LeBron James does (or better), but would not be as efficient of a rebounder and scorer. And I never said anything abour John Stockton and Isiah.

Not as Efficient as Rebounder? :roll: :roll: :applause:

Magic was one of the Strongest Players in the NBA people overlook his Smily Face and Happy Style of Game but to Move Magic out of a Rebound was no easy job even for PFs and Cs and this before he came back at age 36! all bulked up at around 255 lbs!

Magic Johnson at age 36 playingthe PF Spot (yes Guarded Not By SFs, whom are those who Guard Lebron, but PFs!)

At age 36! Not 32, not 30, not his 20s AND YES....

AFTER NOT PLAYING PRO 4-5 YEARS (not 1 but 4-5!) :roll:

1996 stats:

Season:

29.9 MPG (Not 37-40 MPG)
RPG: 5.7
RPG per 36 Minutes: 6.9
TRB%: 11.1% (Lebron`s Highest at age 24 Prime and Healthy is the same: 11.1% playing SF NOT PF, I Repeat NOT PF!)

Play-Offs:

33.8 MPG
RPG: 8.5 !!
TRB%: 14.5 (Lebron not even Close)

:hammerhead: :banghead: :violin: :sleeping

At age 36!
Not Playin for 4-5 Years
Not as a SF
I reapeat not as SF
but as a PF

[Sir Charles]

Magic came back in 1995 not 2000. And for the last ****ing time I said they would be good players in today's game not elite players. They would have an advantage fundamentals wise, but do not compare to the wing athletes of today. And you cannot tell me Bird would have the same impact in the posts today as he did in the 80's.

:no: What are you 19 years old? :oldlol:

April 25, 1996

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199604250LAL.html

36 year old Magic as a PF playing against: Horry, Drexler and Hakeem

Game 1

36 minutes = 13 Rebounds

Game 2

31 Minutes = 7 Rebounds

Game 3

39 munutes = 9 Rebounds

Game 4

38 Miutes = 5 Rebounds

----------------------------------------------------------------

36 MPG
8.5 RPG

At age 36
Playing PF (not SF)
Not Playin 4-5 Years Pro :hammerhead: :violin: :sleeping

[RonySeikalyFTW]

Magic came back in 1995 not 2000. And for the last ****ing time I said they would be good players in today's game not elite players. They would have an advantage fundamentals wise, but do not compare to the wing athletes of today. And you cannot tell me Bird would have the same impact in the posts today as he did in the 80's.

Listen, I'm not going to beat this into the ground, but Magic and Larry are two of the consensus top 10 players in NBA history. Only Tim Duncan of current NBA players even approaches the top 10. You say they couldn't compete with the wing players of today, well lets flip that script. How would these wing players of today fare in the 80s? I'm guessing not that good. They'd be pile-drived into the hardwood and I don't put too much faith in their ability to adjust. Since defensive game-planning rules the day these days because, simply put, most of today's stars have proven they can't adjust to a defensive game-plan (Kobe, Lebron), I don't think they'd fare too well in different eras where they'd have to actually adjust their game. Fact is, you couldn't game-plan for Magic or Larry Legend, who were masters of adjusting their game to fit their teams' or the game's needs. They were always one step ahead. That's why no one ever waited for Magic or Larry to win a ring, yet all you hear today is "can Kobe win without Shaq?" and "who will LeBron be with in 2010?"

[Sir Charles]

Listen, I'm not going to beat this into the ground, but Magic and Larry are two of the consensus top 10 players in NBA history. Only Tim Duncan of current NBA players even approaches the top 10. You say they couldn't compete with the wing players of today, well lets flip that script. How would these wing players of today fare in the 80s? I'm guessing not that good. They'd be pile-drived into the hardwood and I don't put too much faith in their ability to adjust. Since defensive game-planning rules the day these days because, simply put, most of today's stars have proven they can't adjust to a defensive game-plan (Kobe, Lebron), I don't think they'd fare too well in different eras where they'd have to actually adjust their game. Fact is, you couldn't game-plan for Magic or Larry Legend, who were masters of adjusting their game to fit their teams' or the game's needs. They were always one step ahead. That's why no one ever waited for Magic or Larry to win a ring, yet all you hear today is "can Kobe win without Shaq?" and "who will LeBron be with in 2010?"

Bird is a Top 6 All Time EFF Player get that straight people :rolleyes:

Shaq and Duncan are the one Real Great Players in the NBA (those guys are comparable to guys like Bird, McHale, Magic, Kareem, Charles, Jordan, Hakeem, Stockton, Malone etc)

Then you have the Garnett`s, Lebron`s, Kobe`s, Dirk`s, Wade`s...

Below that scale the Nashe`s etc

[Sir Charles]

Including the Greatest Finals Series In NBA History in Part 1, Ever!

1984 Celtics vs Lakers

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=JV4GGoFGU4E&feature=related

Part 2

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=QNh3wbRrn-8&feature=related

Part 3

Greatest Team of All Time: 1986 Boston Celtics

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=jKSy3QjXQa4&feature=related

[AItheAnswer3]

Sir Charles, All that **** you wrote doesnt change the fact Duncan>Barkley

[inclinerator]

so are you gonna change your name to larry legend now?

[Sir Charles]

Sir Charles, All that **** you wrote doesnt change the fact Duncan>Barkley

:no: Shot Blocking and Interior Defense is not enough to be better than Barkley because Barkley is Better than Duncan in all the rest of things which are more than two :confusedshrug:

[AItheAnswer3]

:no: Shot Blocking and Interior Defense is not enough to be better than Barkley because Barkley is Better than Duncan in all the rest of things which are more than two :confusedshrug:

Since you consider Barkley the GOAT PF from 86 to 96 why didnt he make the All-NBA 1st team every year? Also if you look at career achievements Duncan flatout kills Barkley. Though I agree Duncan didnt have it as hard as Barkley did.

[dnyk1337]

Some of you have never seen Magic or Bird play I presume. Go watch them, and stand in awe. I haven't seen players like them YET.

[plowking]

I think a lot of the increase in FT is related to the on ball touch fouls that became so prominent in the last four or five years. Teams are getting buried in bonus situations because refs are making tick tack calls on the ball, and probably even more so in terms of percentage versus years ago off the ball. Especially early in the game when they're trying to set a standard for the game. And every year it's at it's worst at the start of the season, then tapers off.
Anyway, there's some interesting stuff in this thread if you can sift through all the crap. And while I disagree to an extent with Miles and Plowking, you've both made some good cases.

That's a great post from RonySeikley too.

All of those supporting the 80's and 90's are simply ignoring the facts and don't want to accept that todays era is just as good as back then.

"Players back in the 80's and 90's were better shooters thus they had way better FG%"

Stats are shown that todays players take more jumpshots due to zone thus the lower FG%, and that all up the TS% is approximately the same.


"Now there are too many fouls called, it is all soft"

Stats show that there were more fouls called in the 80's by a good 5 free throws.


"Passing, Bball IQ, and fundamentals have all decreased"

Thats why you have players like Jose Calderon, Chris Paul, Nash, Deron averaging insanely high assist numbers, in particular Paul and Calderon in the limited minutes he played last year.
Furthermore you have Chris Paul averaging something like 2.6 turnovers while averaging something like 11.5 assists. I'd say that fundamentals are getting better when players are finding a way to keep the ball safe and still average incredible passing numbers.

"Defense is not as good as it was now"

Then there is a double standard where they say todays rules help the offensive player (which I disagree with), yet scores are being kept at the same number approximately. So therefore defense is getting better going by statistics and further rules put in place.

[LarryLegend33]

Bird is the 2nd greatest player after MJ.

[plowking]

Bird is the 2nd greatest player after MJ.

Based on what exactly?

[LarryLegend33]

Who wins?

[Mamba]

08 garnett allen and pierce are way to much for the slower unathletic 84 celtics.

[LarryLegend33]

Magic played with a top 5 player all time. Give Bird Kareem and let him play out west and Bird ends up with 10 titles.

[jaydacris]

uh oh...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Magic played with a top 5 player all time. Give Bird Kareem and let him play out west and Bird ends up with 10 titles.

:sleeping

good luck with that pal.

[LarryLegend33]

08 garnett allen and pierce are way to much for the slower unathletic 84 celtics.

:roll:

GTFOH.

Bird would piss on Garnett

[Shepseskaf]

Magic played with a top 5 player all time. Give Bird Kareem and let him play out west and Bird ends up with 10 titles.
Another troll.

What's with all the Bird threads lately?

[lilojmayo]

08 garnett allen and pierce are way to much for the slower unathletic 84 celtics.

yeah thats kind of dumb and uneducateed and ignorant in 84 that was Larry Legend's best year HIS PRIME how on earth is paul pierce going to stop Larry Bird in his prime honestly

[Trax416]

There is a reason Micheal Jordan said if Bird had the athleticism of some of the guys today, he would be without question, no doubt in anyone's mind, the greatest player to ever touch a basketball.

Bird > Magic.

[1987_Lakers]

'84 Celtics in 5.

[artificial]

08 garnett allen and pierce are way to much for the slower unathletic 84 celtics.
I want to think that that was sarcasm.

[eliteballer]

Where O where to begin:roll:

Magic was 3 years younger than Bird

Magic could play all 5 positons.

Kareem was NOT at a top 5 all-time level when he played with Magic, he was old.

Magic beat Bird 3-1 in head to head championship play(NCAA, 3 Finals)

In fact the last time they met in 87 Magic THROTTLED him.

[stephanieg]

Why the '84 Celtics and not the far superior '86 version? They actually had a bench then. The '08 Celtics would manhandle the '84 Celts...but '86 would probably involve some barn burners and brawls.

[Shepseskaf]

There's a reason why most knowledgeable basketball experts who evaluate league history, without having an obvious ulterior agenda, rate Magic above Bird. The versatility, the ability to affect all phases of the game, the leadership.... it all favors the Magic Man.

No doubt this subject has been debated ad infinitum. When all is said and done, though, Magic is Top 5, while Bird is in the Top 10.

[allball]

For that matter I don't believe Magic could do what he did in his era. Magic would be unable to play all 5 positions like he did previously and would be unable to consistently run the point. Instead he would play a role similar to LeBron in the Cleveland passing scheme (be the secondary passer who can rack up assists) also he rebound and point total would also decline in today's game (due to being unable to have such authority around the rim). A player who could succeed in all facets (like I previously stated) was a Charles Barkley or a Karl Malone, who possess the all around athleticism to compare to and dominate today's players.

Magic is a much better athlete than you think and u act as if the league is stocked with great athletic defenders. like who Larry Hughes? Carmelo? JR Smith? Bron? D-Wade? you think Kobe could shut down Magic? Chris Paul? Deron? Tayshaun? there were always some defenders that gave Magic problems but on the whole today's cats would get waxed.

Name me one PG today that can go end to end faster than Magic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJYO--zM5Vs

[Revelation]

There's a reason why most knowledgeable basketball experts who evaluate league history, without having an obvious ulterior agenda, rate Magic above Bird. The versatility, the ability to affect all phases of the game, the leadership.... it all favors the Magic Man.

No doubt this subject has been debated ad infinitum. When all is said and done, though, Magic is Top 5, while Bird is in the Top 10.

Many people, maybe even the majority, put Bird in the top 5 as well.

[tontoz]

They were both great players who won multiple MVP's. If you took a poll among people who actually watched them in their primes and asked who was better the voting would probably be pretty even. I am not even sure which one i would vote for.

[eliteballer]

They were equal, but Magic was more entertaining and likable..
Magic wasn't as good a scorer, but he could score.
Magic WAS a better passer and playmaker, although Bird was great too.
Bird was a much better defender and rebounder.
They were both CLUTCH x 10,000.
Larry was smarter.
Magic was more,well, MAGICAL.

Larry wouldn't have won 10 titles with jabbar.
It would've been f#@king unstoppable sick in the half court though.
Larry was dominant in 1/2 court defense and offense.
But Byron Scott and Worthy needed magic to run.
Larry wasn't DOMINANT leading the break like Magic.
Magic put on a better show.

Larry wasn't a better defender than Magic, he was just guarding guys his own size or or a little smaller most of the time. Magic was at a disadvantage at his position. Hell Magic led the league in steals.

Magic was just as a good a rebounder...except he was grabbing boards from the PG position, hes not going to get as many as a guy playing from the 3.

Bird was a better shooter. He was more of a high volume scorer BUT, Magic shot significantly higher from the field(he was more efficient) he was better at getting to the rack and had a great post game.

[Malaysak1982]

Top 5 all time:
#1. Jordan
#2. Jabbar
#3. Magic
#4. Bird
#5. Can't call it


#5. Wilt Chamberlain

[AirGauge23]

08 garnett allen and pierce are way to much for the slower unathletic 84 celtics.

I highlighted your post to look for the "jk" in white. Maybe you forgot to put it there? :confusedshrug:

Anyway, someone should run this through WIS and see who comes out on top. My money is on the 84 Celtics.

[Nash-tastic]

I would say they're both pretty even but I guess Bird is better in clutch situations while Magic is better at running the offense

[Da_Realist]

Game 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2wA0Xt0EHw)

[Nash-tastic]

84 Celtics, Bird could take on any of the Big 3

[Da_Realist]

Game 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGJLMRQHuKQ&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=2)

Game 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2wA0Xt0EHw&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=3)

[plowking]

Who wins?

Give Shaq Magic and he wins more titles then Kareem did with Magic.
Stupid logic, "what ifs", everyone can do it.

I consider Shaq the second greatest player of all time.

[CelticForce1349]

Thanks, that was awesome. :applause:

Before I was a Jordan fan, I was a huge Bird fan. This brought back a lot of good memories. I remember thinking how I was kind of upset the Rockets made it instead of the Lakers that year because I knew the Celtics had the Lakers beat. They were just so dominant in '86. I know that is stating the obvious, but if you actually didn't see it, then here is more confirmation.
Would've been a good rubber match after the previous two years though. Too bad that came the next year with the spectacular and equally, if not more so, dominant '87 Lakers. Bad news for the Celts and Larry of course, and almost the end of the road as Larry broke down soon after.

Watching this game I was struck by two things:

1. Just how often Bird attacked the player with the ball on the defensive end, and how he always seemed to be in the right place at the right time on D. He stripping, stealing, breaking things up left and right. I always remembered him playing his own idea of defensive basketball and not bending mentally to usual defensive positions and practices like almost every other defensive player I have seen, and he was seemingly everywhere without getting called for anything. He seemed to get his nose dirty in so many defensive possessions and I think that has always been an underrated part of why his teams always were the best in college and the pros. And a big part of why his overall impact on a game is so much greater than, arguably, all but a few players.

2. Just how quick he was to get the ball in the hands of the player on his team in the best position to score. I mean, who thinks to throw the ball full court without seemingly even looking up the court, AT ALL? That extra split second of awareness was a huge thing that made Bird so great, kind of like Wayne Gretzky in hockey. Their minds were often faster than the game itself. Magic, same thing. Once again, seems obvious, but to see it is to truly believe. Every position, his idea was to get it into the Chief or Mchale, or to whoever any way he could as often and varied as possible. It was just demoralizing to the other team as shown in this vid by some of the Rocket's reactions.

We sometimes forget in this era of high flying players that in basketball SO much time is spent in half court sets; moving without the ball, finding the open man, getting the ball to him quickly and in the right place to score as easily as possible.
In the 5 on 5 NBA game, half court "winning" basketball relies mostly on these things, and often negates a lot of what athleticism could hypothetically bring to the table. (That being said athleticism can elevate "winning basketball" i.e. MJ, but Bird had enough to get by in almost any situation in a 5 on 5 game)
Watching this, I am now convinced a Kobe and Lebron, etc. would beat Bird and any player other than MJ, (and maybe even Bird and him as well in a 2 on 2 game), but I am also convinced watching this he was a better "winning" player than either in a 5 on 5 game. He just was like a chess master, who had one objective of making every move pertient to winning and the final score.
Lebron may get there, but Larry Legend was just such a great example of what makes "team" sports so great. He was able to use the other 4 players (and 9 really) like pieces on his chessboard regardless of physical limitations, though his physical limitations were not as limited as some think. His ability to sneak in passing lanes, box out, etc. almost made up for whatever limitations there were though.

I loved watching him (and Magic) then, and now, as their games are so rich and full of life. But for different reasons than why almost all other players are fun to watch.

Larry Legend was a true master of the game. What an incredible figure in basketball history.

#33. :bowdown:


Wait...you typed all that great stuff about Larry, and ended by saying that Lebron and Kobe would beat Bird and any other player not named Michael Jordan in a pick-up game?

[72-10]

I consider Shaq the second greatest player of all time.

I consider you an idiot.

[dhenk]

There's a reason why most knowledgeable basketball experts who evaluate league history, without having an obvious ulterior agenda, rate Magic above Bird. The versatility, the ability to affect all phases of the game, the leadership.... it all favors the Magic Man.

No doubt this subject has been debated ad infinitum. When all is said and done, though, Magic is Top 5, while Bird is in the Top 10.

Yeah, and the reason is dislike for the Celtics.
Bird was MVP three times in a row against Magic. Bird was definitly the better leader, the smarter and more skilled player. It

[RonySeikalyFTW]

All of those supporting the 80's and 90's are simply ignoring the facts and don't want to accept that todays era is just as good as back then.

"Players back in the 80's and 90's were better shooters thus they had way better FG%"

Stats are shown that todays players take more jumpshots due to zone thus the lower FG%, and that all up the TS% is approximately the same.


"Now there are too many fouls called, it is all soft"

Stats show that there were more fouls called in the 80's by a good 5 free throws.


"Passing, Bball IQ, and fundamentals have all decreased"

Thats why you have players like Jose Calderon, Chris Paul, Nash, Deron averaging insanely high assist numbers, in particular Paul and Calderon in the limited minutes he played last year.
Furthermore you have Chris Paul averaging something like 2.6 turnovers while averaging something like 11.5 assists. I'd say that fundamentals are getting better when players are finding a way to keep the ball safe and still average incredible passing numbers.

"Defense is not as good as it was now"

Then there is a double standard where they say todays rules help the offensive player (which I disagree with), yet scores are being kept at the same number approximately. So therefore defense is getting better going by statistics and further rules put in place.

Fail.

The first argument is about shooting percentages. Zone defense didn't start until '04, and overall percentages and ppg went up from the previous fundamental and scoring droughts that preceded the rule changes Look at FG%s circa '98-'04, and you may get a clue as to why the rule changes were necessary. I'll give you a hint: PLAYERS COULDN'T SHOOT CONTESTED JUMPERS.

Free throw attempts. Check the number of field goal attempts in the 80's and compare that to today. That will answer your question of why they shot more free throws in the 80s. Complicated stuff.

Assists. Were much higher in the 80s.

The final paragraph of confusion about why "well, if the rules help offense, yet offense still can't score, then defense must be better" pretty much explains why garbage offense today pales in comparison to the fundamental offense of the 80s. Hello, IT'S NOT THE DEFENSE

[Sir Charles]

Fail.

The first argument is about shooting percentages. Zone defense didn't start until '04, and overall percentages and ppg went up from the previous fundamental and scoring droughts that preceded the rule changes Look at FG%s circa '98-'04, and you may get a clue as to why the rule changes were necessary. I'll give you a hint: PLAYERS COULDN'T SHOOT CONTESTED JUMPERS.

Free throw attempts. Check the number of field goal attempts in the 80's and compare that to today. That will answer your question of why they shot more free throws in the 80s. Complicated stuff.

Assists. Were much higher in the 80s.

The final paragraph of confusion about why "well, if the rules help offense, yet offense still can't score, then defense must be better" pretty much explains why garbage offense today pales in comparison to the fundamental offense of the 80s. Hello, IT'S NOT THE DEFENSE

:applause:

[Loki]

Uhh, Magic is ranked higher than Bird on all-time lists because he has the better resume for various reasons, not because he was a better player at his peak. He wasn't.

[Kombo]

All that matters is the Spartans won... Not that Indiana State had anything besides bird.

[plowking]

Fail.

The first argument is about shooting percentages. Zone defense didn't start until '04, and overall percentages and ppg went up from the previous fundamental and scoring droughts that preceded the rule changes Look at FG%s circa '98-'04, and you may get a clue as to why the rule changes were necessary. I'll give you a hint: PLAYERS COULDN'T SHOOT CONTESTED JUMPERS.

Free throw attempts. Check the number of field goal attempts in the 80's and compare that to today. That will answer your question of why they shot more free throws in the 80s. Complicated stuff.

Assists. Were much higher in the 80s.

The final paragraph of confusion about why "well, if the rules help offense, yet offense still can't score, then defense must be better" pretty much explains why garbage offense today pales in comparison to the fundamental offense of the 80s. Hello, IT'S NOT THE DEFENSE

Fail.

Defense became better during that time, and I was specifically talking about when zone was implemented as you can see I mentioned rule changes. I adressed that in the last part of my post. Players were guarded better, forcing into lower field goal percentages. This is due to players being more athletic, stronger and trained better.

Furthermore Sir Charles, you are an idiot. You said yourself in one of the above post that players are more stronger simply because of medicine and technology, not because of work ethic or whatever you said. Hate to break it to you, but stronger is stronger, whichever way you achieve it. So you contradicted yourself there.

Yes, because with increased training, more methodical ways of training and improved techniques, offense is going to regress rather then progress, just like everything in mankind has right? :rolleyes:

Furthermore with kids starting at younger ages now, you are saying basketball is going to get worse? Get real.

[plowking]

I consider you an idiot.

So you are saying Shaq has no claim for the 2 spot?

4 championships
3 finals MVP's
Some of the greatest finals numbers ever
Most Dominant player
Possibly the greatest prime of any player

I'd say he does.

[plowking]

Fail.

The first argument is about shooting percentages. Zone defense didn't start until '04, and overall percentages and ppg went up from the previous fundamental and scoring droughts that preceded the rule changes Look at FG%s circa '98-'04, and you may get a clue as to why the rule changes were necessary. I'll give you a hint: PLAYERS COULDN'T SHOOT CONTESTED JUMPERS.

Free throw attempts. Check the number of field goal attempts in the 80's and compare that to today. That will answer your question of why they shot more free throws in the 80s. Complicated stuff.

Assists. Were much higher in the 80s.

The final paragraph of confusion about why "well, if the rules help offense, yet offense still can't score, then defense must be better" pretty much explains why garbage offense today pales in comparison to the fundamental offense of the 80s. Hello, IT'S NOT THE DEFENSE

You can't back up your argument. Point invalid. I'm not looking up stats for you.

[Sir Charles]

Fail.

Defense became better during that time, and I was specifically talking about when zone was implemented as you can see I mentioned rule changes. I adressed that in the last part of my post. Players were guarded better, forcing into lower field goal percentages. This is due to players being more athletic, stronger and trained better.

Furthermore Sir Charles, you are an idiot. You said yourself in one of the above post that players are more stronger simply because of medicine and technology, not because of work ethic or whatever you said. Hate to break it to you, but stronger is stronger, whichever way you achieve it. So you contradicted yourself there.

Yes, because with increased training, more methodical ways of training and improved techniques, offense is going to regress rather then progress, just like everything in mankind has right? :rolleyes:

Furthermore with kids starting at younger ages now, you are saying basketball is going to get worse? Get real.

Are you stupid or sometin? :rolleyes: :hammerhead:

One thing is that by doing weights + vitamins you become "OVERAL STRONGER" YOURSELF (its not like a a Person is Stronger than the Other Because because of Weights Only:hammerhead: ) but That Goes by your: "NATURAL STRENGTH"

That Doesn`t Get Stronger by Vitamins and Weightlifting. That variable stats the same but The Rest Adds to that Virable Depening On How Much You Work Out and Take :pimp:

This means you will be "OVERAL STRONGER" but IT WILL NOT MAKE YOUR "NATURAL STRENGTH" = STRONGER NOR WILL WILL YOUR "NATURAL STRENGTH" BECOME STRONGER THAN SOMEONE ELSES "NATURAL STRENGTH" WHO IS BY NATURE "NATURALLY STRONGER" THAN YOU. Ofcourse if this one person that is Already by "Nature Stronger than You, Naturally Stronger" takes on the wieght programs + vitamins he will also add to his "OVERAL STRENGTH" (nothing will happen to his "Natural Strength" which is already stronger than yours!).

That is why in the Late 80s and 90s Many Players began using Weight Programs and Vitamins to get themselves more Bulked Up to look like actual and 90s players. For example Bird was many times guarded by Xavier McDaniel a 6`7SF that was one of the Best Defenders in the League his weight in the 80s was around 225 lbs and in the 90s around 240 lbs do to weight programs + vitamins but his "NATURAL STRENTH" DID NOT CHANGE! just is "OVERAL STRENGH DID" and Bird schooled him....2-3 Years before that the Whole Weight Lifting + Vitamins became popular in the NBA

Go Check Out McDaniel vs Bird and McDaniel vs the 92 Bulls and see How Bulked Up He Got in the 90s comapared to the 80s (ofcourse do to his weight lifting program + vitamins) . He could not stop Bird`s and was NOT STRONGER THAN BIRD BEFORE THE WEIGHTS, THAT IS: "WAS NOT STRONGER THAN BIRD NATURALLY" (and if you saw him in those clips youd see how Strong he Looked).

Bird was way Stronger than People think. He was Thick Boned, remember that.

Bird could Post Up and Score on Players like Horace Grant: 6`10/245 lbs.

Big Enough? I Recall him Being Champion with the Shaq-Bryant Lakers in 2000s and as A STARTER!

Well this dude got permanently owned by Bird from 87 to 92. Sometimes recieving 30 or 40s Pts in his face and getting outrebounded 95% of the time :confusedshrug:

Other ones:

Kevin Willis 7`0/ 240 lbs...I`ve see Bird guard him and get Guarded by him in the Post as well as Antoine Carr 6`8 /264 lbs...Could they do Sh-it against Bird? :no:

You got one of the fastest PFs Ever in James Worthy 6`9 around 240 lbs....He could not stop Bird in the Post neither when he backed away to get his jumper off. He called the hardest Forward to Guard according to James. :confusedshrug:

Charles Barkley 6`4-6`5/260-280 lb...He even hit a game winner on Charles whom is way Stronger than Bird. But Bird simply moved back and used is Set Skills, Foot Work to Get of His Magical Awkward Looking but Deadly & Effective, Mid Range Shot and Pum!

Simple!

Bird could not be Guarded by SFs nor PFs because if you put in a typical quick SFs that ranged around 6`6,`6`7 or 6`8 like Cooper, Nique, Pippen, Jordan, Xavier, Drexler, Rodman because he would shoot over them Post Up (him around 6`9 1/2 ft and stronger than his Country Boy Look, "The Hick from French Lick" that Dr J warned everyone about) and neither by players that where 6`9, 6`10, 6`11 and 7`0 that ranged from 245 lbs 265 lbs his Set of "Talent & Skills" (which where a Mix of PG-SG-SF-PF Into One Body!) Where Too Much for PFs and "Many Times His Speed Itself"...which is not Greatest but at Average more than most PFs" (a healthy prime 23-31 year old, 1979-86 Bird ofcourse) was also enough!. Yes kiddp he could not be Guarded by "Pathetic", "Weak" and "Short" players like: Worthy, Kevin Willis, Horace Grant, Buck Williams (ranging from 6`8-6`9,6`10 to 7`0) etc in the Post!!! :hammerhead:

Bird was tough as hell too. I will remind you he was like a White Trash Country Boy that was Not Fast but Was Fed Well in his Youth, Was Thick Boned Big Time and Was Strong. Bird also had a Heart ofa Lion because he often had felt Isolated at School because of his Families Background and Low Self-Esteem as a Kid (was not very wealthy compared to his peers, his dad was an alcholic whom commited suicide, his akward looking body, not a very handsome kid etc read his Biography etc)

Barkley hardy did any weights and that is why he got injured in 94. He even mentioned this in an article which he said the only time he did not listen to friend MJ`s advise whas regarding doing more weight lifting but guess what? Barkley`s NATURAL STRENGTH was such!!! he could Pick Up Shaq from the Ground whom was around 7`1 / 340-350-360 lbs and knock him to ground in what? 0.5 seconds? 0.4 seconds ? at age 35-36:confusedshrug:

That alone and in 1985: Dunking which such force that the:

Basket
The Whole Stantion (Pole, Rim, Backboard) and
The Rim (Was Bent)

Got Out of Place Some Feet Backwoards and a 20 Minute Delay was called...

Is enough to describe How Strong Barkley was "NATURALLY"...Which is All That Matters...

The Rest is Just Doing More Weight Lifting and Getting Your Vitamins, thats it!.

If Bird at age 35 and crippled Wth Back Problems..Averaged

20.2 PPG
46.6% FG%
9.6 RPG
6.8 APG
40.6% 3-Point FG% (52/128)
92.6% FT%

In a Time when there Was No Handchecking Rule, No Puss Fouls Called, Way More Competition, Fundamentals and Passing Game, A League Stretched for Just the Best American Players (not watered down) and

When MJ was in his Total Prime, Schooling the NBA + Greates like Ewing, Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Stockton...etc ALLL, ALL! whom Schooled the NBA till what...2000?, where in THEIR PRIMES...then what makes you think Bird could not play in the NBA today, idiot!?

In fact todays game would be easier for Bird because he would Play All Day In A Slow Motion Game, which is what he Loved and in a Zone Defense. Now that would be A Thrill to Bird! with Him as the Best Team-Free Defender of All Time...he would school Big not just be a Star in todays era.

Not to mention he would be: Free of Handchecking, Free of Real Fouls, Sorrounded of Dumb Players with Low B-BAll IQ Around him, No One As Smart or Witty, Very Few With that of His Will to Win etc...

Get Real! "Kidd"! for Bird it would be a Piece of Cake!