How much better was Larry Bird than Magic Johnson?

[LarryLegend33]

Bird won titles with Mchale while Magic needed a prime Kareem to win and in that weak west. Imagine Bird playing with Kareem. :eek:

That would be at least 10 titles.

[west]

:banghead:

[1000yearsofPAIN]

Magic didn't need Kareem to win.

How much better was Larry than Magic? Not at all.

[Solid Snake]

I can't say who was better but I like Bird better than Magic.

[Posterize246]

First Sir Charles....

Now this...

[big baller]

Bird won titles with Mchale while Magic needed a prime Kareem to win and in that weak west. Imagine Bird playing with Kareem. :eek:

That would be at least 10 titles.

Magic>Bird...........

[ruslan]

Bird won titles with Mchale while Magic needed a prime Kareem to win and in that weak west. Imagine Bird playing with Kareem. :eek:

That would be at least 10 titles.

prime kareem? magic entered the league while kareem was going on his 11th year...ur an idiot...or a dick rider....bird is top 5 player but aint better than magic

mj
magi
bird

leave it at that

[big baller]

prime kareem? magic entered the league while kareem was going on his 11th year...ur an idiot...or a dick rider....bird is top 5 player but aint better than magic

mj
magi
bird

leave it at that

ummm.....kareem>Bird and kareem=magic....

[Showtime]

How much better?

-12 better units.

[Loki]

Prime Bird ('84-'88) was a bit better than prime Magic ('86-'90). If I had to put a number on it I'd say 3-5%. So if Bird was a 96%, Magic was a 91-93%. Not much, but he was definitely better in my (and most sportswriters' at the time) opinion.

[eliteballer]

Magic was 3 years younger than Bird

Magic could play all 5 positons.

Kareem was NOT at a top 5 all-time level when he played with Magic, he was old.

Magic beat Bird 3-1 in head to head championship play(NCAA, 3 Finals)

In fact the last time they met in 87 Magic THROTTLED him.

Larry wasn't a better defender than Magic, he was just guarding guys his own size or or a little smaller most of the time. Magic was at a disadvantage at his position. Hell Magic led the league in steals.

Magic was just as a good a rebounder...except he was grabbing boards from the PG position, hes not going to get as many as a guy playing from the 3.

Bird was a better shooter. He was more of a high volume scorer BUT, Magic shot significantly higher from the field(he was more efficient) he was better at getting to the rack and had a great post game.

No, prime Bird isn't better than prime Magic. Hell, non prime Magic was giving prime Bird everything he could handle and beating him in the Finals.

[Loki]

Magic was 3 years younger than Bird

Magic could play all 5 positons.

Kareem was NOT at a top 5 all-time level when he played with Magic, he was old.

Magic beat Bird 3-1 in head to head championship play(NCAA, 3 Finals)

In fact the last time they met in 87 Magic THROTTLED him.

Larry wasn't a better defender than Magic, he was just guarding guys his own size or or a little smaller most of the time. Magic was at a disadvantage at his position. Hell Magic led the league in steals.

Magic was just as a good a rebounder...except he was grabbing boards from the PG position, hes not going to get as many as a guy playing from the 3.

Bird was a better shooter. He was more of a high volume scorer BUT, Magic shot significantly higher from the field(he was more efficient) he was better at getting to the rack and had a great post game.

No, prime Bird isn't better than prime Magic. Hell, non prime Magic was giving prime Bird everything he could handle and beating him in the Finals.

:oldlol:

Keep telling yourself that. That's why numerous sporting mags (SI, The Sporting News etc.) and columnists were calling Bird the GOAT during his '84-'87 stretch, while no one except Laker homers like yourself ever called Magic the GOAT during any span.

But yeah, we'll listen to you instead.

[eliteballer]

PLENTY have called Magic the GOAT. In fact WILT CHAMBERLAIN SAID HE WASN'T SURE THERE HAD EVER BEEN A PLAYER BETTER THAN MAGIC. What would you know though, your only a huge Bird fan because they show him more than Magic on ESPN classic:roll:

[brandonislegend]

magic = GOAT

over jordan and bird.

[RagingBull33]

Magic was just as a good a rebounder...except he was grabbing boards from the PG position, hes not going to get as many as a guy playing from the 3.
Doesn't make sense. Boxing out someone your own size is much harder to do then boxing out someone much smaller than you.


Magic shot significantly higher from the field(he was more efficient) he was better at getting to the rack and had a great post game.

Not really; both were extremely efficient (many 50%+ years for both), but Larry scored more.

[eliteballer]

Doesn't make sense. Boxing out someone your own size is much harder to do then boxing out someone much smaller than you.


Not really; both were extremely efficient (many 50%+ years for both), but Larry scored more.

A PG is generally going to be farther away from the basket on offense and defense than a forward. Harder to grab boards. Also, Magic is out there competing with a SG/SF/PF/C to grab boards. Bird competing with a PG/SG/PF/C. PG-SF trade off. Magic has more players who are likely to grab higher volume of boards.

In their primes, Magic usually shot from 53-56%. Bird usually shot 50-52%

[fos]

Bird was better than Magic at everything INCLUDING passing which is what a point guard does best. Bird, better shooter, better rebounder, better passer, better defender, and tougher. Talk about rebounding, Bird played with McHale and Perrish and still had 10 a game for his career at SF and played PF before McHale got there. Only thing that stopped Bird from being the greatest to play the game was his body. Period.

[eliteballer]

Bird was better than Magic at everything INCLUDING passing which is what a point guard does best. Bird, better shooter, better rebounder, better passer, better defender, and tougher. Talk about rebounding, Bird played with McHale and Perrish and still had 10 a game for his career at SF and played PF before McHale got there. Only thing that stopped Bird from being the greatest to play the game was his body. Period.

:roll: The ONLY thing Bird had on Magic was shooting. Magic was equal or better in all other areas.

[eliteballer]

Forgot to mention, Magic was also a better ballhandler.

[RagingBull33]

Forgot to mention, Magic was also a better ballhandler.
That's pretty much it. Bird has the edge everywhere else, aside from maybe versatility.

[eliteballer]

No he doesn't. Magic can play all 5 positions. Magic is a better passer. Better ballhandler. Equal or better defender(led league in steals). Better at slashing. Equal rebounder. More efficient scorer. Magic owning him in head to head title play 3-1 despite being 3 years younger says it all.

[Loki]

:oldlol:

Laker fans...

Where were the national publications and national columnists calling Magic the best player ever any time during his career? They never existed; it never happened. Meanwhile, many were calling Bird the GOAT during the '84-'87 stretch.

When many people call one player the GOAT, but no respected pubs/columnists call the other the GOAT, and when only Laker homers perpetuate this myth that prime Magic > prime Bird, you can only draw one conclusion.

[eliteballer]

Considering you didn't follow the NBA during Magic and Bird's primes, suffice to say you have no credibility in mentioning who was saying what:rolleyes:

[RagingBull33]

Magic can play all 5 positions. Better ballhandler.
As I said, Magic has the edge here.


Magic is a better passer.
Pretty debatable, I can see it going either way. I'd still give Bird the edge, but can see your point of view.


Equal or better defender(led league in steals).
Allen Iverson would be considered a great defender if steals were that large a measuring stick. Bird wasn't amazing, but was better than average (especially for his lack of athleticism) and a 3 time 2nd All-D.


Better at slashing.
Bird was better at the Post.


Equal rebounder.
Bird played with two other guys recording 10+ RPG and still got his. Magic was battling people 6-8 inches smaller than him.


More efficient scorer.
Wow, Larry often scored 6-9 more PPG with a loss of like 3 percentage points. Big Deal. Bird wins in this category.


Magic owning him in head to head title play 3-1 despite being 3 years younger says it all.
East>West in the 80s. Your argument can also backfire on you; Magic was younger and more athletic, while Bird relied more heavily on skill.

[eliteballer]

Pretty debatable, I can see it going either way. I'd still give Bird the edge, but can see your point of view.

Magic's superior ballhandling capability make him better suited to playmaking. Vision itself might be equal, but Magic's superior ballhandling allows him to do more WITH that vision


Allen Iverson would be considered a great defender if steals were that large a measuring stick. Bird wasn't amazing, but was better than average (especially for his lack of athleticism) and a 3 time 2nd All-D.

Magic was very solid at defending guys his own size...including Bird. He was also great at the passing lanes.


Bird was better at the Post.

Debatable. Magic developed a very solid post game. He was stronger than Bird and harder to control down there.


Bird played with two other guys recording 10+ RPG and still got his. Magic was battling people 6-8 inches smaller than him.

Magic was playing a position where his position on the floor and role on the team put him at a huge disadvantage in getting boards and still regularly got 7to 9 per game


Wow, Larry often scored 6-9 more PPG with a loss of like 3 percentage points. Big Deal. Bird wins in this category.

When Magic was required to score more points he did so on similar efficiency to Bird. 23-24 ppg on 52% shooting.


East>West in the 80s. Your argument can also backfire on you; Magic was younger and more athletic, while Bird relied more heavily on skill.

East was not significantly better. The West usually had just about as many 40and 50+ win teams. Also, even IF Bird relied more on skill, I look at the totality of the players effect on the game. Nash is more skilled than LeBron, but it doesnt make him a better player.

[Sir Charles]

A 1979-1986 Bird was clearly better than Magic

Bird wa 3 years older while reaching his prime Earlier aso also his Decline Earlier. He was 23 straight away incomming to the NBA and fo the 1st 6-7 years was clearly better than Magic: He was the Best Player in the NBA from 1981 to 1986

Then it was Magic`s turn from 1987 to 1991 but Overall Bird was the Better Player and a Had a Superior Prime.

Don`t get me wrong but Kareem was still an All Star Caliber player till 1987 and Magic also had Prime Worthy (One of the Best SF/PFs of All Time) and a superior all around cast over the years than Bird had (except for the 1986 Celtics with versatile sixth-man Walton that could come in as FC and C) in Cooper, McADoo, Thompson, Scott, Green, Rambis etc all in their Prime plus Jabbar and Worthy.

Bird had McHale, DJ, Maxwell (till 1985) and Parish but ofcourse Parish was made pretty much by Bird`s Great Passing.

Bird was the Better Scorer, Shooter, Rebounder, Post Defender and almost as Good a Passer as Magic but from a Different Position. Also the better FT shooter, 3-Point Shooter and Clutch Shooter. Superior in a Half Court Game

Magic was the Better Driver, Ballhandler, 1 on 1 Player Away from the Post, More Creative of a Fast Break, almost as Good Rebounder and was Superior in Running Game.

Anyhow they are both Great and although comparable they played different positions so its kind of hard and who really cares?

What was Great About them is that they where precisely the players that carried your typical Whote/Black Steroptypes and made these their trait of the game:


The Not So Athletic, Not so High Jumping, Not Very Fast...White B-Ball Country Boy Player that Hustles and plays as hard as a Lion...


Bird: but this one also Played like a Magician. A Harlem Globetrotter inside a Freakish White Boy Look that also had a the Cold Blood of an Assasing that fittinly loved to get away with a Trash Talk and a Smile after his constant humilations on Players that where Faster and More Athletic than Him. Could Rebound with out a Jump, Could School Offensively without Great Speed and Quickness.

and..

The Supposevely Athletic, High Leaping Typical Black Player that Puts Himself over the Team

Magic: but this one actually was the Opposite...No So Athletic, Not So fast and Played to Lead and Make Others Better. He Was There to Design, To Create, To Do It All-Around, Was Very Smart, Had Enormous B-Ball IQ and always Put His Team 1st even though he expressed the Witts and Talent of Your typical Creative Player Ground Black Ball Player and Did It to Win!

Bird and Magic contraticted the Stereotypes that where usually seen as "Not Being Able to Effect on the Game" of Both your Typical and Most Common White and Black Players....

So You Had a White Man`s Worst Dream in Magic: A somewhat Chubby Hunchbacked Blackman that was as Smart as a Scientist in the Game and played Small being Big.

And a Black Mans Worst Dream in Bird: An Unathletic Somewhat Slow Whiteboy that Inside was as Talented and Coordinated as Globetrotter

Bird was Saying So What if Im A Bit Unathletic, Somewhat Slow and Akward Looking I STILL GOT MORE GAME, WITTS AND TALENT THAN YOU WILL EVER HAVE!

Magic was Saying So What If I am Flashy Chubby and Hunchbacked Looking Tall PG I STILL CAN OUT THINK AND SEE THE GAME BETTER THAN YOU WILL EVER!

That is why they will always be linked together because of their Value System and Their Pointed Out White/Black Stereotypes that even do where not much appreciated: Dominated the League Always!

:applause:

[BIZARRO]

Magic was 3 years younger than Bird

Magic could play all 5 positons.

Kareem was NOT at a top 5 all-time level when he played with Magic, he was old.

Magic beat Bird 3-1 in head to head championship play(NCAA, 3 Finals)In fact the last time they met in 87 Magic THROTTLED him.

Larry wasn't a better defender than Magic, he was just guarding guys his own size or or a little smaller most of the time. Magic was at a disadvantage at his position. Hell Magic led the league in steals.

Magic was just as a good a rebounder...except he was grabbing boards from the PG position, hes not going to get as many as a guy playing from the 3.

Bird was a better shooter. He was more of a high volume scorer BUT, Magic shot significantly higher from the field(he was more efficient) he was better at getting to the rack and had a great post game.

No, prime Bird isn't better than prime Magic. Hell, non prime Magic was giving prime Bird everything he could handle and beating him in the Finals.


I'm not convinced Bird was better than Magic, or that Magic was better than Bird. I saw them both a lot back then and they each have a compelling case of course.
If put to it, I think Bird at his very best was better, but that Magic was better more consistently.
So take what you will from that.

I will say that the championship/head to head argument is B.S. though.
If you put Magic's powerful Michigan State team with Bird and Magic on Indiana State; Michigan State with Bird hammers them.

In addition, I was a Celtics fan back then and always thought the Lakers had a clearly superior supporting cast than Larry had with the Celts.

If you put Bird, Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, etc. against Magic, Mchale, Parish, Johnson, Ainge, etc. the championships would be 5-3 the other way or at least that IMO.

It scares me to think about how good a team with a core of Bird, Kareem, and James Worthy would be; especially with an elite big defender like Michael Cooper.

In conclusion and all things aside, IMO Bird and Magic are like ying and yang and will always be that way. I think of them as equals with each other's comparative strengths being cancelled out by the other's.

Which is why they were, and still are, so compelling as rivals, and still so compelling to debate. :cheers:

[D.J.]

I honestly think Bird was better, but the difference is very marginal. They were almost equal overall, but I always preferred Bird growing up. Prior to '87, these two were the best players in the league at 1A and 1B.

[Psileas]

Generally, from 1980 to 1986, Bird was considered better than Magic, but at a bigger degree than their real margin. It wasn't clear-cut imo, year in and year out.

1980-Bird was better in the regular season, Magic in the playoffs.
1981-Bird was better (Magic missed 45 games due to injury).
1982-Magic was better.
1983-Bird might be slightly better in the r.s, Magic was better in the playoffs.
1984-Bird was better
1985-Bird was better, Magic had slightly better playoffs
1986-Bird was better

In 1987-92, the tables turned, although Bird might be better in the 1988 regular season:

1987: Magic was better
1988: Bird was better in the r.s, Magic in the playoffs.
1989: Magic was better (Bird missed virtually the whole season)
1990: Magic was better
1991: Magic was better

The season when both were closer to their primes must be 1987, closely followed by 1986 or 1988. BTW, 1987 and 1988 were the 2 seasons when the trio of Bird, Magic and Jordan were altogether the closest to their prime.

[D.J.]

Generally, from 1980 to 1986, Bird was considered better than Magic, but at a bigger degree than their real margin. It wasn't clear-cut imo, year in and year out.

1980-Bird was better in the regular season, Magic in the playoffs.
1981-Bird was better (Magic missed 45 games due to injury).
1982-Magic was better.
1983-Bird might be slightly better in the r.s, Magic was better in the playoffs.
1984-Bird was better
1985-Bird was better, Magic had slightly better playoffs
1986-Bird was better

In 1987-92, the tables turned, although Bird might be better in the 1988 regular season:

1987: Magic was better
1988: Bird was better in the r.s, Magic in the playoffs.
1989: Magic was better (Bird missed virtually the whole season)
1990: Magic was better
1991: Magic was better

The season when both were closer to their primes must be 1987, closely followed by 1986 or 1988. BTW, 1987 and 1988 were the 2 seasons when the trio of Bird, Magic and Jordan were altogether the closest to their prime.


The tables turned for good in late '87-early '88 when Bird's back started to go. He only played in six games in the 1988-89 season and the Celtics barely played .500 ball. In terms of their peaks, they were very close, but I think Bird slightly edges Magic out.

[TmacsRockets]

Magic 3 finals mvp's 3 season mvp's
Bird 2 finals mvp's, 3 season mvp's.

Too close to call.

[Shepseskaf]

Please ban this idiot "LarryLegend" before he starts making new threads about Bird being better than Magic on a daily basis. Wasn't there a near-identical thread a few days ago?

As far as the comparison goes, stats don't really tell the story. Magic was undoubtely more important to his team than Bird was to his. Take Bird away from those prime Boston teams, and you still have a solid squad. Take Magic away from the Lakers and you've got a whole new ballgame.

The difference between the two wasn't that great, but Magic > Bird looks right to me. Their head to head competition, both in college and in the League bears this out.

[72-10]

I consider Magic #5 and Bird #6.

[Kiddlovesnets]

WTF! Magic Johnson is actually a slightly better player than Larry Bird.

[chains5000]

First Sir Charles....

Now this...
Blame the mods

[Sir Charles]

Prime Bird is a Better player than Magic.

End

[magic chiongson]

magic is goat





if that guy named michael jordan was never born

[eliteballer]

Yeaaaaah everyone, Prime Bird is so much better than Magic just take a look at their stats in the 1985 Finals:

Magic: 18.3 pts, 6.8 reb, 14.0 ast, 2.2 stl, 0.0 blk, 49.4 FG%, 50 3FG%, 87.1 FT%, 39.2 mpg

Bird: 23.8 pts, 8.8 reb, 5.0 ast, 1.8 stl, .7 blk, 44.9 FG%, 33.3 3FG%, 85 FT%, 40.2 mpg

Those 14 assists are not a typo:roll:

[chains5000]

Yeaaaaah everyone, Prime Bird is so much better than Magic just take a look at their stats in the 1985 Finals:

Magic: 18.3 pts, 6.8 reb, 14.0 ast, 2.2 stl, 0.0 blk, 49.4 FG%, 50 3FG%, 87.1 FT%, 39.2 mpg

Bird: 23.8 pts, 8.8 reb, 5.0 ast, 1.8 stl, .7 blk, 44.9 FG%, 33.3 3FG%, 85 FT%, 40.2 mpg

Those 14 assists are not a typo:roll:
I won't say either of them is better than the other, but your argument is really simplistic.

[Sir Charles]

Yeaaaaah everyone, Prime Bird is so much better than Magic just take a look at their stats in the 1985 Finals:

Magic: 18.3 pts, 6.8 reb, 14.0 ast, 2.2 stl, 0.0 blk, 49.4 FG%, 50 3FG%, 87.1 FT%, 39.2 mpg

Bird: 23.8 pts, 8.8 reb, 5.0 ast, 1.8 stl, .7 blk, 44.9 FG%, 33.3 3FG%, 85 FT%, 40.2 mpg

Those 14 assists are not a typo : roll:

Those 14 APG are easier to get if you have Running Machines like: James Worthy, Michael Cooper etc and the Most Skilled Center Ever, Jabbar :confusedshrug:

[Rolando]

Bird = GOAT SF
Magic= GOAT PG

You can't compare GOATS at different positions. It just comes down to who you like more.

[starks]

Below articles are proof that by 1986, Bird was considered as the undisputed best player in the league, and probably the GOAT by some. One thing that's interesting is that some respected names called him the greatest passer of all time, in a time when Magic was around.



NO DOUBT ABOUT IT: BIRD MAKES HIS MARK
Jan Hubbard
16 May 1985
The Dallas Morning News

"When Larry first came here,' said Boston forward Cedric Maxwell, "it was just like it was another white guy coming into play: "He might be all right, but he ain't that good.' But before the NBA got a chance to see how good Larry Bird was, I did. We battled every day, and I said, "Shoot, this guy's pretty good.' And now he's pretty great.'

Basketball fans know that. Some suggest the 28-year-old Bird is not only the greatest player playing today, but maybe the best ever. Since he arrived in Boston six years ago, Bird has led the Celtics to an average of 61 victories, and two NBA titles. This season, he was second in the league in scoring (28.7), second in 3-point percentage (.427), sixth in free-throw percentage (.882) and eighth in rebounding (10.5). He played for most of the season with bone chips in his right (shooting) elbow.



Experts Pick Kareem as Best Ever
Associated Press
8 February 1986

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the Los Angeles Lakers' peerless center, is the greatest basketball player ever, according to a 60-member panel of experts polled by the Dallas Morning News.

Abdul-Jabbar, who turns 39 in April, is playing in his 17th professional season, an NBA record. Eighteen voters in the Morning News poll named him the greatest player, enabling him to beat out Oscar Robertson, a former Milwaukee Bucks teammate, who was named on 14 ballots.

***

Besides Abdul-Jabbar, Bird was the only active player to receive votes as the greatest player ever (four). "His approach to the game is almost unparalleled,' said Guokas, who voted for Bird. "He will cut your heart out to win. He has the ability to handle the ball, shoot and rebound. He can pass and make everybody on the floor better.'

Bob Cousy, one of the league's all-time great guards, played with Russell, yet he voted for Bird as best player. "He shows you something different all night,' Cousy said. "He simply doesn't have any weaknesses.



Celtics' Bird plays in a world of his own
Robert Sansevere
29 May 1986
Star-Tribune

Bird received the MVP award yesterday for the third straight year. He is only the third player in the NBA's 40-year history - and the first non-center - to win the award three years in a row. Bill Russell (1961-63) and Wilt Chamberlain (1966-68) were the others.

"Larry's the greatest total player I've ever seen in the game of basketball," said Celtics coach K.C. Jones, who played with Russell and against Chamberlain.

Bird ranked among the league leaders in five categories while leading the Celtics to an NBA-best 67-15 regular-season record and to the NBA finals for the third straight year.

Detroit Piston Coach Chuck Daly, on Larry Bird: "He's the best passer in the league. He finds the open man better than anybody else. He is the greatest passer of all time." Note: On a recent telecast, as Bird was preparing to throw the ball in, CBS analyst Doug Collins said, "Larry Bird is the greatest inbounds passer I have ever seen."



Celtics' Bird: The master of the court
JOHN McCLAIN
Staff
1 June 1986
Houston Chronicle

"Yeah, Larry's just like a chess player," Houston Rockets General Manager Ray Patterson says. "I don't know of a better way to describe him. He's like a chess player who plays 40 boards. He knows where all the moves are. He's a thing of beauty to watch. He puts on a clinic. Sometimes, it's almost like he's out there playing with nine guys from the YMCA. "He creates things on the court even he doesn't know exist," Patterson says. "He's like a great artist or composer, and he's got the heart of a lion."

"No one can do the things Larry can do. I think he's the best ever. He practices like it's the seventh game of the championship series. When Larry gets hot, a little voice starts directing him and he's on radar," says Fitch, who coached Bird in his first four years with the Celtics.


Bird: Last of NBA Cops
By Mike Fish. The Kansas City Star and Times
1302 words
9 November 1986

Celtics president Red Auerbach, in his fourth decade with the team, says Bird is the most intense player ever to wear the Kelly green of Boston. That includes blood-and-guts types such as Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, Dave Cowens and John Havlicek.

And the best to play on the parquet of Boston Garden? Probably Bird.

"I don't ever compare the great Celtic players, because I would praise one and insult four or five others," Johnny Most said. "I will say, that in my opinion, Larry Bird is the most complete basketball player that ever lived."

Bird is a slow 6-9 forward who specializes in the running game and ranks with the league's best rebounders and shooters. He seems to see the game in slow motion, keeping the ball in the air, creating as he goes along.

It used to be he was considered the most dominant non-center in the game. Or the best all-around player since Oscar Robertson. In many corners, it is now just: "The best."




Larry Bird: Is he the best ever?
SAM GOLDAPER
New York Times
12 November 1986

NEW YORK - Give Larry Bird room and he'll bury a three-point field goal. Play him tight and he'll drive past you. Guard him one-on-one in the low posts and he'll spin along the baseline for a soft, left-handed layup.

Another National Basketball Association season is here, and coaches and players - many of whom already concede Bird a fourth straight most valuable player award - talk now about whether he is the greatest who ever played the game.

"There is no question he is the greatest player today," said Hubie Brown, the New York Knicks' coach. "He is already at a level very few people will reach, no matter what their profession. He has stature of almost awe, not only from coaches and fans, but from his peers."

***

There have been other great shooters, other great rebounders. other great passers, but none has ever put all those skills together better than Bird has.

A National Sports Review poll recently asked 100 athletes, all of them all-stars and leading money winners, to vote for the athlete they most admired in a sport other than their own.

Bird was the winner with 22 votes.

[Shepseskaf]

Those 14 APG are easier to get if you have Running Machines like: James Worthy, Michael Cooper etc and the Most Skilled Center Ever, Jabbar :confusedshrug:
More stupidity. As was stated earlier, stats DO NOT tell the story when comparing these two. If you actually watched them play, it was obvious that Magic was the better player -- not by a huge margin, but certainly enough to create space between them.

I hate revisionists who come in and try to usurp the truth. Magic and Bird were two of the greatest players ever, and they literally saved the league from oblivion. Head to head, Magic won more titles, both in college and in the league. They're obviously both Top 10, but Magic is higher on the totem pole.

[Sir Charles]

More stupidity. As was stated earlier, stats DO NOT tell the story when comparing these two. If you actually watched them play, it was obvious that Magic was the better player -- not by a huge margin, but certainly enough to create space between them.

I hate revisionists who come in and try to usurp the truth. Magic and Bird were two of the greatest players ever, and they literally saved the league from oblivion. Head to head, Magic won more titles, both in college and in the league. They're obviously both Top 10, but Magic is higher on the totem pole.

Are you saing Magic is Better because of his Smile, Popularity, Won More Championships and Because he was More Flashy? :rolleyes:

Ist it because you are Black or sometin? :rolleyes:

I watched them both Play an Bird was Better:

Bird entered the League at same time as Magic

Bird = Rookie of the Year

*More Impact than Magic

Celtics With No Bird:

1978-79 Boston Celtics 29-53, Finished 5th in NBA Atlantic Division (Game Results)

Celtics With Bird

1979-80 Boston Celtics Statistics

61-21, Finished 1st in NBA Atlantic Division

Magic had way superior casts by his 1st season: Jabbar, Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes not to Mention Played in a Way Weaker Conference(as Doctor J, Walton and many always make fun of the Lakers cause of that, They Faced Nobodies Compared to what the Celtics faced: Sixers, Pistons, Bucks, Cavs, Hawks, Knicks

Bird A Better Scorer

Yes, Bird was GUARDED WAY MORE TIGHTLY than Magic has ever been plus Magic would get many loose open shots after Jabbar was Doubled Teamed or there was preocupation on James (McaDoo etc).

In fact Bird was one of the Most Guarded Players Ever and from the 1981 to 1986 Probably the The Most Tightly Guarded in the Perimter or Post (other than Centers) in the Whole League

Nothing agains the Magic Man he smartly learned his Role as When to Take Shots benefiting from the Constant Double Teaming on Jabbar (Main Focus) and Worthy (Second Main Focus)

Bird A Better Shooter (Mid Range, Far Range, Post Range)

That is obvious. Magic develeoped into a Better Shooter as Time Passed...

Bird As Good a Passer as Magic

Yes he is a SF and from there he averaged more Assits than All the PFs, SFs, SGs and many PGs in his Time. By the way, Bird just needed 1 inch to get Off his Passes and was Guarded Tightly by BOTH SFs and PFS

Better FT Shooter

Ofcourse...

Better 3-Point Shooter

Ofcourse...

Magics overall PER is Higher at Total obviously because Bird could hardly Play after 1989 when he Got Injured and Magic was sorrounded by Superior Casts

But one must Remember....

Birds PER PEEK is just insane and Superior to Magic`s

1982-83 NBA 24.1 (3)
1983-84 NBA 24.2 (2)
1984-85 NBA 26.5 (1)
1985-86 NBA 25.6 (1)
1986-87 NBA 26.4 (3)
1987-88 NBA 27.8 (2)

Magics`s PER

1981-82 NBA 22.9 (7)
1982-83 NBA 23.0 (6)
1983-84 NBA 22.6 (7)
1984-85 NBA 23.2 (4)
1985-86 NBA 24.0 (4)
1986-87 NBA 27.0 (2)
1987-88 NBA 23.1 (8)
1988-89 NBA 26.9 (3)
1989-90 NBA 26.6 (4)
1990-91 NBA 25.1 (4)

Overall Best Player in the League from the 1981 to 1987 stretch.

Not Just the Best Player in his Position but THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE.

Bird was More Clutch and Competitive than Magic

There are Very Few Players that Have Matched Bird Clutchness (West, Miller, Jordan where almost as Clutch) and Competitivenss: Only Jordan only can relate to that.

Better Defender than Magic

Magic averaged more SPG obviously because he plays outside but then again he was what? 6`8-6`9 that was easy for him.

Magic`s BPG Avg is very low especially for guy that had so much advantage at 6`8-6`9 at the PG and his Defensive will was way Inferior to Bird`s reason why Bird Averged 0.8 BPG.

While Magic guarded smaller players and very few scoring point guard threats: Isiah or Monciref if that sometimes...

Bird had to deal with: Bernard King, Alex English, Doctor J, James Worthy, Tom Chambers, Adrian Dantley,

*Bird SPG was still great

Season: 1.7 SPG
Play-Offs: 1.8 SPG

Magic`s descreased in the Play-Offs (Clutch Time)

Season: 2.0 SPG
Play-Offs: 1.88 SPG

Bird`s Defensive Rating

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (7)
1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (8)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)

Magic`sDefensive Rating

1980-81 NBA 98.3 (8)
Thats it..

Finally Bird Ranks TOP 6 All TIME IN EFF

Which Shows You How Efficient, Skilled and Rich in Fundamentals Bird was... Without Taking Into Account Minutes Per Game Which Depend Basically on Your Impac/Skill do to your Physical or Athletic Abilities and Magic`s case was favored by having 6-7 inches over All PGs in the league and as i mentioned before: Better Casts!

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons
1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20 (Magic`s Great Help Here?, Yes!)
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

Bird > Magic....No Discussion To Me :confusedshrug:

[RAPSCANWIN]

As a poster in this forum of comparitive elderly experience who remembers first hand the prime Showtime Lakers and Celtics....

Magic = Bird

Its awful tough to say one is better then the other. They were both the best players in the league at their positions.

Magic was more exciting to watch, but Bird was the most fundamentally sound player ive seen, and crafty too. Boy was Bird crafty and smart.

[Sir Charles]

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/3734/48661364df3.gif


Are you saing Magic is Better because of his Smile, Popularity, Won More Championships and Because he was More Flashy? :rolleyes:

Ist it because you are Black or sometin? :rolleyes:

I watched them both Play an Bird was Better:

Bird entered the League at same time as Magic

Bird = Rookie of the Year

*More Impact than Magic

Celtics With No Bird:

1978-79 Boston Celtics 29-53, Finished 5th in NBA Atlantic Division (Game Results)

Celtics With Bird

1979-80 Boston Celtics Statistics

61-21, Finished 1st in NBA Atlantic Division

Magic had way superior casts by his 1st season: Jabbar, Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes not to Mention Played in a Way Weaker Conference(as Doctor J, Walton and many always make fun of the Lakers cause of that, They Faced Nobodies Compared to what the Celtics faced: Sixers, Pistons, Bucks, Cavs, Hawks, Knicks

Bird A Better Scorer

Yes, Bird was GUARDED WAY MORE TIGHTLY than Magic has ever been plus Magic would get many loose open shots after Jabbar was Doubled Teamed or there was preocupation on James (McaDoo etc).

In fact Bird was one of the Most Guarded Players Ever and from the 1981 to 1986 Probably the The Most Tightly Guarded in the Perimter or Post (other than Centers) in the Whole League

Nothing agains the Magic Man he smartly learned his Role as When to Take Shots benefiting from the Constant Double Teaming on Jabbar (Main Focus) and Worthy (Second Main Focus)

Bird A Better Shooter (Mid Range, Far Range, Post Range)

That is obvious. Magic develeoped into a Better Shooter as Time Passed...

Bird As Good a Passer as Magic

Yes he is a SF and from there he averaged more Assits than All the PFs, SFs, SGs and many PGs in his Time. By the way, Bird just needed 1 inch to get Off his Passes and was Guarded Tightly by BOTH SFs and PFS

Better FT Shooter

Ofcourse...

Better 3-Point Shooter

Ofcourse...

Magics overall PER is Higher at Total obviously because Bird could hardly Play after 1989 when he Got Injured and Magic was sorrounded by Superior Casts

But one must Remember....

Birds PER PEEK is just insane and Superior to Magic`s

1982-83 NBA 24.1 (3)
1983-84 NBA 24.2 (2)
1984-85 NBA 26.5 (1)
1985-86 NBA 25.6 (1)
1986-87 NBA 26.4 (3)
1987-88 NBA 27.8 (2)

Magics`s PER

1981-82 NBA 22.9 (7)
1982-83 NBA 23.0 (6)
1983-84 NBA 22.6 (7)
1984-85 NBA 23.2 (4)
1985-86 NBA 24.0 (4)
1986-87 NBA 27.0 (2)
1987-88 NBA 23.1 (8)
1988-89 NBA 26.9 (3)
1989-90 NBA 26.6 (4)
1990-91 NBA 25.1 (4)

Overall Best Player in the League from the 1981 to 1987 stretch.

Not Just the Best Player in his Position but THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE.

Bird was More Clutch and Competitive than Magic

There are Very Few Players that Have Matched Bird Clutchness (West, Miller, Jordan where almost as Clutch) and Competitivenss: Only Jordan only can relate to that.

Better Defender than Magic

Magic averaged more SPG obviously because he plays outside but then again he was what? 6`8-6`9 that was easy for him.

Magic`s BPG Avg is very low especially for guy that had so much advantage at 6`8-6`9 at the PG and his Defensive will was way Inferior to Bird`s reason why Bird Averged 0.8 BPG.

While Magic guarded smaller players and very few scoring point guard threats: Isiah or Monciref if that sometimes...

Bird had to deal with: Bernard King, Alex English, Doctor J, James Worthy, Tom Chambers, Adrian Dantley,

*Bird SPG was still great

Season: 1.7 SPG
Play-Offs: 1.8 SPG

Magic`s descreased in the Play-Offs (Clutch Time)

Season: 2.0 SPG
Play-Offs: 1.88 SPG

Bird`s Defensive Rating

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (7)
1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (8)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)

Magic`sDefensive Rating

1980-81 NBA 98.3 (8)
Thats it..

Finally Bird Ranks TOP 6 All TIME IN EFF

Which Shows You How Efficient, Skilled and Rich in Fundamentals Bird was... Without Taking Into Account Minutes Per Game Which Depend Basically on Your Impac/Skill do to your Physical or Athletic Abilities and Magic`s case was favored by having 6-7 inches over All PGs in the league and as i mentioned before: Better Casts!

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons
1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20 (Magic`s Great Help Here?, Yes!)
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

Bird > Magic....No Discussion To Me :confusedshrug:

Bird was More: Skilled All Around than Magic, Way More Competitive than Magic, Way More Clutch than Magic and Was Way More of a Preocupation as a Total than Magic has ever been in his whole Career. :confusedshrug:

Also Bird was the Absolute Leader of his Team for More Years...While Magic was the Team Leader pretty much after Jabbar left before that he was just the Motivator

Bird > Magic

[Da_Realist]

Below articles are proof that by 1986, Bird was considered as the undisputed best player in the league, and probably the GOAT by some. One thing that's interesting is that some respected names called him the greatest passer of all time, in a time when Magic was around.

Great research! Repped. :applause:

[Sir Charles]

Bird was better than Magic at everything INCLUDING passing which is what a point guard does best. Bird, better shooter, better rebounder, better passer, better defender, and tougher. Talk about rebounding, Bird played with McHale and Perrish and still had 10 a game for his career at SF and played PF before McHale got there. Only thing that stopped Bird from being the greatest to play the game was his body. Period.

:applause:

By the way who is the idiot that said Bird never Guarded PFs? :rolleyes:

Bird did Guard both PFs (including 7`0 Kevin Willis!) and SFs and was Guarded by both SFs and PFs
And was Guarded Way More Tightly than Magic has Ever Been.

1987 All Star Game

Part 2

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=PPnBDQ-JQ2w

Mark Aguirre Mentions the Name "Bird" before Magic and then mentions "Kareem" (thats how much help Magic had over Bird in sorrounding casts and not to mention playin in weaker conferece) and then..."Magic".

Part 4

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Ja2P3d-Sc

Listen to the Applause and Crowd while Bird Gets Up in the Introduction and compare it to Magic`s in Part 2

Bird = Arguably the Best Player in the NBA from 1981 to 1987, All Around Wise = by Far!

Bird > Magic

End

[allball]

Bird won titles with Mchale while Magic needed a prime Kareem to win and in that weak west. Imagine Bird playing with Kareem. :eek:

That would be at least 10 titles.

:wtf:

[Sir Charles]

Get your biased ass outta here.

First off, who the hell cares what a bunch of articles say? I'm sure that you could also find a lot of articles who call Magic the GOAT.

Secondly, look at the timing of those articles. Written in 1985-86. Not many would claim that Magic was better than Bird in 1986. After the 85-86 season ended, Bird had 3 rings and 3 MVPs. Magic had 3 rings and 0 MVPs. However, for the remaining seasons of their career, all Bird had was 2 all-NBA 1st team selections, whereas Magic went on to win 3 MVPs, 5 all-NBA 1st teams and 2 more rings, including a beatdown of Bird in what would be their last finals meeting.

His Team Beat Bird`s Team not Magic

Bird > Magic...Fact

[Scott Pippen]

it is very close. Career goes to Magic, prime goes to Bird. Remember Bird did not win 3 straight MVP awards by mistake. Again it is very close:applause:

[Sir Charles]

Just like Bird's team beat their opponents whenever they won in the 80s.

Magic > Bird...Fact

In What Ways is Magic Better than Bird other than Ballhandling and Speed?

[Raconteur]

its a push, anyone with a brain knows this.

[Psileas]

Bird A Better Scorer

Yes, Bird was GUARDED WAY MORE TIGHTLY than Magic has ever been plus Magic would get many loose open shots after Jabbar was Doubled Teamed or there was preocupation on James (McaDoo etc).

No, Bird wasn't "GUARDED WAY MORE TIGHTLY than Magic has ever been". Watch Magic being guarded by DJ (and generally being guarded when he developed a good shot). Watch him being guarded by Jordan/Pippen in the 1991 Finals. I don't remember Bird ever being guarded "way more tightly" than that.


Better FT Shooter

Ofcourse...

Better 3-Point Shooter

Ofcourse...

Yet, Magic has the better FG%, better eFG% and better TS% (which even takes into account 3-pointers).


Magics overall PER is Higher at Total obviously because Bird could hardly Play after 1989 when he Got Injured and Magic was sorrounded by Superior Casts

But one must Remember....

Birds PER PEEK is just insane and Superior to Magic`s

PER values scoring over passing. It also adjusts the pace of all teams into one, which again doesn't do justice to a high pace-setter, like Magic, because it assumes that he and his teammates would dominate at the same rate playing at a slower tempo and that players of a slower team like Boston would dominate at the same rate playing faster. The difference isn't all that impressive, either and actually, Magic beats Bird in 8 of the 13 seasons they played (including the 1992 Bird vs 1996 Magic). Even if you took away Bird's past prime years, at best he'd take a slight edge. And then again, why not do the same thing for Magic? Take away his first 3 seasons, because Bird never played so young-and Bird was a late bloomer, he reached his peak at a somewhat old age.

Oh, and Magic, as you said, had slightly better teammates, which makes it harder for him to individually dominate and post a better PER.


Bird was More Clutch and Competitive than Magic

There are Very Few Players that Have Matched Bird Clutchness (West, Miller, Jordan where almost as Clutch) and Competitivenss: Only Jordan only can relate to that.

How do you measure clutchness? On game-winnng baskets alone it seems, since you mentioned these specific players. Competitiveness?
Like I've said before, people forget that Bird had quite a high number of unclutch moments and worse than average series. More ones than Magic, in fact. I can remember 2 series when Magic was clearly unclutch in losses: In 1981 against the Rockets and in 1984 against the Celtics (this was his worst series clutch-wise, although not the worst, number-wise). Bird was also unclutch in 1988, against the Pistons and in 1990 against the Knicks, so that ties him. Magic's next worst moment is in 1983, against the Sixers. But Bird lost even worse that year, because he got swept to a worse team, he had a healthier team and posted worse numbers. What follows for Magic? His 1991 series vs the Bulls? Still not worse than the 1985 series Bird had against the Lakers. And that still leaves out his 1980 and 1982 series against the Sixers and his 1987 against the Lakers. I'm not even counting his 1991 and 1992 series, due to him leaving his prime (and similarly, don't count Magic's 1996 one).


Better Defender than Magic

Magic averaged more SPG obviously because he plays outside but then again he was what? 6`8-6`9 that was easy for him.

Magic`s BPG Avg is very low especially for guy that had so much advantage at 6`8-6`9 at the PG and his Defensive will was way Inferior to Bird`s reason why Bird Averged 0.8 BPG.

While Magic guarded smaller players and very few scoring point guard threats: Isiah or Monciref if that sometimes...

Bird had to deal with: Bernard King, Alex English, Doctor J, James Worthy, Tom Chambers, Adrian Dantley,

*Bird SPG was still great

Season: 1.7 SPG
Play-Offs: 1.8 SPG

Magic`s descreased in the Play-Offs (Clutch Time)

Season: 2.0 SPG
Play-Offs: 1.88 SPG

You forgot that Magic was also 6'8-6'9 when performing his steals, where he led the league twice. Bird was also 6'9, but it's easier to steal the ball from a 6'6 forward than a 6'2 guard.

And since you love Barkley and his quotes, let me remind you the one that said "as long as Larry Bird is around, I can only be the second worst defender".


Bird As Good a Passer as Magic

Yes he is a SF and from there he averaged more Assits than All the PFs, SFs, SGs and many PGs in his Time. By the way, Bird just needed 1 inch to get Off his Passes and was Guarded Tightly by BOTH SFs and PFS

Best quote of them all. Magic also scored more than most SG's, SF's, PF's and C's in the league (and obviously more than all PG's). He was also among the most efficient scorers ever, as I've shown before. So that must make him an equal scorer to Bird, right? He also dribbled better than all 6'9 players in history, so that must make him an equal dribbler to Pistol Pete, Isiah and Iverson, right?

[Niquesports]

:oldlol:

Keep telling yourself that. That's why numerous sporting mags (SI, The Sporting News etc.) and columnists were calling Bird the GOAT during his '84-'87 stretch, while no one except Laker homers like yourself ever called Magic the GOAT during any span.

But yeah, we'll listen to you instead.


The old excuse Birds was the better player magic played on the better teams.
Ask anyone that ever played anything I'd rather win championships than have some Nerd sports writers that never played jacks opinion saying whose better. Magic 4-1 vs Bird in Big Games

[Loki]

The old excuse Birds was the better player magic played on the better teams.
Ask anyone that ever played anything I'd rather win championships than have some Nerd sports writers that never played jacks opinion saying whose better. Magic 4-1 vs Bird in Big Games

Right. Put simply, the peak Magic > peak Bird myth that is prevalent on message boards is revisionist history perpetuated largely by Laker fans and closet Laker fans such as yourself. People at the time recognized who the better player was.

[Niquesports]

As a poster in this forum of comparitive elderly experience who remembers first hand the prime Showtime Lakers and Celtics....

Magic = Bird

Its awful tough to say one is better then the other. They were both the best players in the league at their positions.

Magic was more exciting to watch, but Bird was the most fundamentally sound player ive seen, and crafty too. Boy was Bird crafty and smart.

Why is always the black player was fun to watch and the white player was fundamentally sound and "Smart" Magic was the smartest point guard I have ever seen he always made sure his players were in best postion to score he lead his team to 10 finals more than any player since Bill Rusell. You may not have meant anything by it but too often when comparing black and white players the black player is the gifted athlet and the white player is the hard working smart player.

[Niquesports]

His Team Beat Bird`s Team not Magic

Bird > Magic...Fact


Magic >Bird thats why his teams always beat Birds team

Big games against Bird magic comes out on top
Big games against Magic Bird chokes

[Niquesports]

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/3734/48661364df3.gif



Bird was More: Skilled All Around than Magic, Way More Competitive than Magic, Way More Clutch than Magic and Was Way More of a Preocupation as a Total than Magic has ever been in his whole Career. :confusedshrug:

Also Bird was the Absolute Leader of his Team for More Years...While Magic was the Team Leader pretty much after Jabbar left before that he was just the Motivator

Bird > Magic


In your boias book of why Bird is better you talk about him being better in the clutch 1 question why did Magics team win 3-1 where was Bird being a clutch player then.

[AItheAnswer3]

LarryLegend33 is Sir Charles.

[Loki]

I am far from a Lakers fan, and my post history on this forum proves that. Magic was a better player than Bird. People "at the time" recognized that Bird was a better player? What time? Can you be more specific? Are you referring to the 1986 articles again? Of course they were going to say that Bird was better in 1986, when he won three consecutive MVP awards and it was only his 7th year in the league. It looked as if he was on his way to have a 7-8 MVP career. However, by 1990, when Magic won three MVPs himself and two more rings, there is no way that Bird was universally recognized as being better than Magic.

Not better in an all-time sense, since Magic's resume had surpassed Bird's by that time. But you never heard anyone nationally talking about Magic as the best player ever at any point in his career (not in 1984, '88, or '91) like they did with Bird. To most people, that suggests that Bird was viewed as the better player at his peak.

Where are the "Is Magic the GOAT?" articles circa 1989/90? They don't exist.

[Loki]

Why is always the black player was fun to watch and the white player was fundamentally sound and "Smart" Magic was the smartest point guard I have ever seen he always made sure his players were in best postion to score he lead his team to 10 finals more than any player since Bill Rusell. You may not have meant anything by it but too often when comparing black and white players the black player is the gifted athlet and the white player is the hard working smart player.

First off, it was 9 Finals, not 10. Second, Magic didn't lead LA to 9 Finals, he led them to 7. He wasn't LA's best or most important player for the first two.

[Niquesports]

Not better in an all-time sense, since Magic's resume had surpassed Bird's by that time. But you never heard anyone nationally talking about Magic as the best player ever at any point in his career (not in 1984, '88, or '91) like they did with Bird. To most people, that suggests that Bird was viewed as the better player at his peak.

Where are the "Is Magic the GOAT?" articles circa 1989/90? They don't exist.


I can be wrong but i have always believed there to be some racial bias with reports between Magic and Bird in college it was Bird this Bird that oh yea magic is really good in the big game not only did Magics team win but he out played Bird same in the pros Bird gets ROY magic gets Finals MVP for me Id rather be the guy that won more which isnt a opinion but fact than the guy people's opinion say your better. ie. Russell and Chamberlin

[Niquesports]

First off, it was 9 Finals, not 10. Second, Magic didn't lead LA to 9 Finals, he led them to 7. He wasn't LA's best or most important player for the first two.


Even still thats 2 more than Bird. Maybe he wasnt the best player or team leader he was a focal point to a team that hadn't made the finals in about 6 years. Many of which that same best player jabbar was not able to do.

[CelticForce1349]

There is no need to pit Bird and Magic against each other in these type of arguments. The rivalry is long over, they are close friends, and they are on the same team now.

The question is not Magic vs. Bird, the question is what duo stands a chance of competing against Larry and Magic? Both men are Gods of Basketball who helped make the NBA and the other man even better.

They deserve full respect so please recognize the rivalry is long over. Peace.

[Niquesports]

There is no need to pit Bird and Magic against each other in these type of arguments. The rivalry is long over, they are close friends, and they are on the same team now.

The question is not Magic vs. Bird, the question is what duo stands a chance of competing against Larry and Magic? Both men are Gods of Basketball who helped make the NBA and the other man even better.

They deserve full respect so please recognize the rivalry is long over. Peace.


But thats what made the 80's so great people would debate whos better Magic or Bird it was interesting there is no real interest in whos better LBJ or Kobe except if your a fan of either. All basketball fans took a side in the Magic/Bird debate

[eliteballer]

So not only do we have Magic outplaying Prime Bird in the 1985 Finals but...



Magic: 18.3 pts, 6.8 reb, 14.0 ast, 2.2 stl, 0.0 blk, 49.4 FG%, 50 3FG%, 87.1 FT%, 39.2 mpg

Bird: 23.8 pts, 8.8 reb, 5.0 ast, 1.8 stl, .7 blk, 44.9 FG%, 33.3 3FG%, 85 FT%, 40.2 mpg


Gasp! The 1987 Finals as well!

Magic: 26.2 pts, 8.0 reb, 13.0 ast, 2.3 stl, .3 blk, 54.1 FG%, 50 3FG%, 96 FT%, 39.3 MPG

Bird: 24.2 pts, 10.0 reb, 5.0 ast, 1.2 stl, 1.2 blk, 44.5 FG%, 50 3FG%, 92.1 FT%, 42.3 MPG

[Nevaeh]

But thats what made the 80's so great people would debate whos better Magic or Bird it was interesting there is no real interest in whos better LBJ or Kobe except if your a fan of either. All basketball fans took a side in the Magic/Bird debate

I for one Love these versus threads. They stir good debate (most times), and keep the Board lively. It reminds me of the great Nintendo vs. Sega debates of the early 90s.

Anyway yeah, it is a bunch of bull**** how the media act shocked and awed when black players do something "smart" or "crafty" on the court. Its almost like their surprised when Magic or Jordan would make the right decisions out there

I won't really debate who was the best, but I will say this; sitting here watching the Lakers dvd collection with Magic orchestrating showtime, both fast breaks and half court sets, it's obvious that he had FAR more on his plate to deal with than Bird did.

Not to mention, Magic's Lakers won Back to Back titles. That counts for something.

[Shepseskaf]

Right. Put simply, the peak Magic > peak Bird myth that is prevalent on message boards is revisionist history perpetuated largely by Laker fans and closet Laker fans such as yourself. People at the time recognized who the better player was.
What people are you talking about? Nobody that I knew. In fact, many were convinced that Bird was severely overhyped based on his skin color, and the League's desire to promote a white superstar.

As a native NYer, and thus a natural hater of all things Boston, it took me a while to fully appreciate the things that Bird brought to the game. I'm actually a fan of his now. However, at no point did I feel that he was better than Magic. No time. That kind of thought wasn't a prevailing thought except in Boston, I suspect.

[Sir Charles]

Jordan/Pippen in the 1991 Finals. I don't remember Bird ever being guarded "way more tightly" than that.

Both MJ and Pippen where not as Tall or Strong as Magic and that accounts for only 1 season. Then Again Bird was guaded by Players ranging from 6`5 to 7`0. Bird also guarded players that ranged from 6`5 to 7`0:

Players that Bird was matched to Dr J, Dantley, James Worthy, Tom Chambers, Kevin Willis, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, Buck Williams Antoine Carr, Xavier McDaniel Clydre Drexler, Dominique Wilkins etc...while Jordan was usually guarded by Players that where not as Quick-Athletic and vary rarely as tall in teh case of Magic, awalys shorter and never as stocky.

At average Bird was guarded by Tougher Defenders. Any one can see that clearly

Yet, Magic has the better FG%, better eFG% and better TS% (which even takes into account 3-pointers).

Ofcourse you have a Better FG% if your Center is Arguably the Third or Second Greatest Center Ever and Much of Time Doubled Teamed. Not to mention having James Worthy and Jabbar as Both their Focal Scorers (whom had various ways to score) it gets quite easy compared to what Bird had in Parish (Bird made Parish, go look at the games) and McHale (whom rarely could do anything away from the Post)

Magic played with an All TimeTop 10 PER and All Time Top 5 EF

Kareem Player Efficiency Rating

1979-80 NBA 25.3 (2)
1980-81 NBA 25.5 (1)
1981-82 NBA 23.4 (5)
1982-83 NBA 23.6 (4)
1983-84 NBA 21.3 (10)
1984-85 NBA 22.9 (5)
1985-86 NBA 22.7 (6)

Career 24.6 (10)

McHale`s Top Days of PER Only

1985-86 NBA 21.6 (9)
1986-87 NBA 24.0 (5)
1987-88 NBA 21.9 (10)

Career NBA 20.0 (55)

PER values scoring over passing. It also adjusts the pace of all teams into one, which again doesn't do justice to a high pace-setter, like Magic, because it assumes that he and his teammates would dominate at the same rate playing at a slower tempo and that players of a slower team like Boston would dominate at the same rate playing faster. The difference isn't all that impressive, either and actually, Magic beats Bird in 8 of the 13 seasons they played (including the 1992 Bird vs 1996 Magic). Even if you took away Bird's past prime years, at best he'd take a slight edge. And then again, why not do the same thing for Magic? Take away his first 3 seasons, because Bird never played so young-and Bird was a late bloomer, he reached his peak at a somewhat old age.

Bird got injured in 1989. He was never the same after that :rolleyes: and anyone knows that Magic had a way Superior Cast to Magic from 1979 to 1989, the same year that Bird did not play much and his team went downhill while even after Magic left and Aging Worthy, Divac, Scott make a scare of the Suns in 92-93 without Magic After Bird left the Celtics did not do sh-it til 2008.

Oh, and Magic, as you said, had slightly better teammates, which makes it harder for him to individually dominate and post a better PER.

It makes it easier to have a high PER because you can concentrate on your Dominant Skills Then Over Produce, Make Others Over Produce for You and Your Game Weaknesses Can Be Set A Side and Covered Up by Others such as Magic being an Inferior Defender than Bird.

How do you measure clutchness? On game-winnng baskets alone it seems, since you mentioned these specific players. Competitiveness?
Like I've said before, people forget that Bird had quite a high number of unclutch moments and worse than average series. More ones than Magic, in fact. I can remember 2 series when Magic was clearly unclutch in losses: In 1981 against the Rockets and in 1984 against the Celtics (this was his worst series clutch-wise, although not the worst, number-wise). Bird was also unclutch in 1988, against the Pistons and in 1990 against the Knicks, so that ties him. Magic's next worst moment is in 1983, against the Sixers. But Bird lost even worse that year, because he got swept to a worse team, he had a healthier team and posted worse numbers. What follows for Magic? His 1991 series vs the Bulls? Still not worse than the 1985 series Bird had against the Lakers. And that still leaves out his 1980 and 1982 series against the Sixers and his 1987 against the Lakers. I'm not even counting his 1991 and 1992 series, due to him leaving his prime (and similarly, don't count Magic's 1996 one).

Magic Numbers where also helped by having Jabbar and Worthy and an All Around Better Casts Over The Years and All These Casts Pretty Much Prime.

Also while Magic had it easier in the Western Conference and was guarded by 6`0-6`4 PGs Bird was Guarded by SGs-SF-PFs and still was capable of outplaying All and Doing it All With Less Help than Magic.

You forgot that Magic was also 6'8-6'9 when performing his steals, where he led the league twice. Bird was also 6'9, but it's easier to steal the ball from a 6'6 forward than a 6'2 guard.

Your Forgot its EASIER TO BLOCK a 6`2 if you are 6`8 like Magic was and its Hard to to STEAL IT FROM one that is 6`5, 6`6 if you are at 6`9 1/2 like Bird was!. Anyone knows this: rolleyes: = 6`6 Players have Superior Ball Handling Skills and Speed compared to Players that are 6`9 plus. Bird got his Steals against these Dudes + Being The Greatest Timer Ever in Defense and against PFs All day Long. Yes he stole it from SGs, SFs and 6`9ers, 6`10ers, 6`11ers and even 7`0 PFs as he did against Kevin Willis in 88. Various time against the Dream in 86 etc.:confusedshrug:

While Magic at 6`9, 6`10 hardly ever Blocked his Matchups that where 6`2 at average. Magic`s 0.4 BPG for a 6`8-6`9 PG is not very excusable sorry :no: :confusedshrug:

And since you love Barkley and his quotes, let me remind you the one that said "as long as Larry Bird is around, I can only be the second worst defender".

Ofcourse because Barkley said that and he was right. He felt underrated because even though he wasn`t the Best of Post Defenders he was more than Average and his Intuition for Steals & Team Defense was Way Above Average in fact one of the Best just in the Same Way Bird was the Best at that in the League. Barkley was a master at Stealing the Balls from PFs-SFs and PGs too, reason why he has the Highest SPG avg for the PF Spot Ever and here you can see clips of that that proof of that:

At:1.26 Barkley Steals it From a PF that Tried to take Him Off the Dribble Away from the Paint

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=jwxGTjEwcg8

At: 0.39 Barkley Steals it from a PG/SG 1 on 1

Best quote of them all. Magic also scored more than most SG's, SF's, PF's and C's in the league (and obviously more than all PG's). He was also among the most efficient scorers ever, as I've shown before. So that must make him an equal scorer to Bird, right? He also dribbled better than all 6'9 players in history, so that must make him an equal dribbler to Pistol Pete, Isiah and Iverson, right?

Wrong FG% is an important measure but its most important If you Are the Focal Scorer which Magic was not. Magic benefited of Jabbar and Worthy getting All the Attention while Bird had to Create his Shot, Create for McHale and Bird, Rebound against PFs and Cs and also Play Better Defense, which he did Better than Bird. Magic was firstly the 3rd Go to Go Guy/Focal Scorer in his Team and Later the 2nd Go to Go Guy (as McHale was in the Celtics) while Bird was the 1st Go to Go Guy/Focal Scorer Always and Was as said before GUARDED WAY MORE AGRESSIVElY than Magic ever Was by SFs-PFs.

Ofcourse Magic was one of the Best Dribblers Ever but Basically one of the Smartest Dribblers Ever too and that is what linked him to Bird and Bird to Magic but that doesn`t take away that fact that overall its quite Clear that Bird was the Better Player.

Bird Dominate More Skills than Magic and Was the Go to Go Guy not later in his Career but Always. Birrd had to Take the Load like Pippen did in the Bulls except he also had to take the Scoring Load and be the Go to to Guy :violin:

[Shepseskaf]

Bird Dominate More Skills than Magic and Was the Go to Go Guy not later in his Career but Always. Birrd had to Take the Load like Pippen did in the Bulls except he also had to take the Scoring Load and be the Go to to Guy
You're not only a wacko, but apparently you're a wacko with lots of time on his hands.

I don't know what you're trying to prove with the colors and the idiotic spelling capitalization, but you're making your case weaker every time you post. Why not give it a rest and quit while you're behind?

[Sir Charles]

You're not only a wacko, but apparently you're a wacko with lots of time on his hands.

I don't know what you're trying to prove with the colors and the idiotic spelling capitalization, but you're making your case weaker every time you post. Why not give it a rest and quit while you're behind?

Pissed because i Just prooved it more cleary that Bird was Better than Magic? :rolleyes: .

Doesn`t it Suck that a Slow, No Leaping White Country Boy was Better than Flashy Magic? and Magic by the Way is one of my Favorite Players and I even know Bird was Better. Bird was also Better than Barkley even if Barkley had a Higher PER both Sesaon and Play-Off. There is a reason why Jordan would Pick Bird as the Best F Ever. Get Real....:rolleyes: :violin:

[eliteballer]

You say Bird is a better defender and follow it up with a quote by Barkley saying Bird is the worst defender in the league:roll:

Bitter Magic beat Barkley for MVP in 1990?:pimp:

[Shepseskaf]

Pissed because i Just prooved it more cleary that Bird was Better than Magic? :rolleyes: .
No. All you "prooved" is that you're an idiot who spouts meaningless stats in an extremely lame attempt to proove that one player is better than another.

I'm not wasting any more time responding to the posts of an unhinged person. Get some professional help, pronto.

[Sir Charles]

You say Bird is a better defender and follow it up with a quote by Barkley saying Bird is the worst defender in the league:roll:

Bitter Magic beat Barkley for MVP in 1990?:pimp:

Not at all my Fave Player before Barkley was Magic but then I learned the Game more and knew who deserved it more.

Barkley was just tired of his underrating...something that is still happening because of Barkley`s brutal honesty, agressive demenoar and brashness back then who obviously went against the NBA policy whom had the Nice Smile of Magic as Pro Stern Puppet that played with the Better Casts his WHole Life in the Weaker W. Conference than both Bird and Charles. Yes Barkley said that because Bird was an asoume Defender but not the Best 1 on 1 Against very Quick SFs (in the same way these SFs coult not stop him, so they had to put in Pfs, which also schooled) but then again Bird could find other ways :The Greatest Loose Defender Ever, Greatest Timer Ever and in the Low Post Very Few BOTH SFs and PFs Could Score on Him...same with Barkley while Bird was overlooked on his weakness Barkley was always pointed while none mentioned he was the Best Stealing PF Ever and Almost In Bird Style one of the Best Off-Man Defenders.

Nothing against Magic man, i love Magic too but. its the truth :confusedshrug:

And by the Way Bird (The Slow-Nerdy-Looking Unathletic White Country Boy Bird) earned what he got more than Magic ever did. Yes differently from Smiley Magic...Bird Never Whined to Stern for MVP`s :roll: while Magic did :roll:

Reason why Barkley got his 1990 MVP stolen because he did not simile nice or was flashy enough. Same with Bird...in a more quiet way... :violin:

[eliteballer]

:roll: Magic had AT LEAST comparable numbers in 90 and his team won 10 MORE GAMES. Cork it, and while you're at it learn proper grammar:roll:

[Sir Charles]

:roll: Magic had AT LEAST comparable numbers in 90 and his team won 10 MORE GAMES. Cork it, and while you're at it learn proper grammar:roll:

Whom did Magic face?

Barkley`s Sixers and Eastern Teams Overall faced Real Teams: Pistons, Bulls, Knicks, Cavs, Bulls, Celtics, Hawks...

Magic faced one Great Team in 86 and after that nothing much. Reason why the next best competition was the Blazers whom Lost to both the Pistons (East) and Bulls (East) in the early 90s also it took the Jazz whom where getting there in the late 80s and early 90s till 1997 to get to the finals.

Bird > Magic....clearer than Water...:violin:

[Shepseskaf]

LarryLegend33 is Sir Charles.
Nope. The writing styles are too different.

LarryLegend33 is Joe Wait/jasonterry, one of the most banned posters in ISH. One can only hope that he's been banned again.

[eliteballer]

Whom did Magic face?

Barkley`s Sixers and Eastern Teams Overall faced Real Teams: Pistons, Bulls, Knicks, Cavs, Bulls, Celtics, Hawks...

Magic faced one Great Team in 86 and after that nothing much. Reason why the next best competition was the Blazers whom Lost to both the Pistons (East) and Bulls (East) in the early 90s also it took the Jazz whom where getting there in the late 80s and early 90s till 1997 to get to the finals.

Bird > Magic....clearer than Water...:violin:

:oldlol: In 1990 the West had five 50 win teams and the East had four. The East had three under 20 win teams and the West had one.

[Niquesports]

Right. Put simply, the peak Magic > peak Bird myth that is prevalent on message boards is revisionist history perpetuated largely by Laker fans and closet Laker fans such as yourself. People at the time recognized who the better player was.
First of all Im not a Laker fan
Second like I said Bird lovers always had to make the excuse of why Magics team always won over Bird to save his name theyd just say Bird was better.

[Niquesports]

Pissed because i Just prooved it more cleary that Bird was Better than Magic? :rolleyes: .

Doesn`t it Suck that a Slow, No Leaping White Country Boy was Better than Flashy Magic? and Magic by the Way is one of my Favorite Players and I even know Bird was Better. Bird was also Better than Barkley even if Barkley had a Higher PER both Sesaon and Play-Off. There is a reason why Jordan would Pick Bird as the Best F Ever. Get Real....:rolleyes: :violin:




What you proved is that your post are so long and silly noone in there right mind takes the time to read the whole post.
ITs one thing we know for sure magic has won more than Bird
Sounds like you have some racial issues Magic was also No Leaping slow player that added Flash when needed Just like Bird havent you ever seen his no look passes but for you I guess thats just Bird being a smart crafty player .

[Niquesports]

Whom did Magic face?

Barkley`s Sixers and Eastern Teams Overall faced Real Teams: Pistons, Bulls, Knicks, Cavs, Bulls, Celtics, Hawks...

Magic faced one Great Team in 86 and after that nothing much. Reason why the next best competition was the Blazers whom Lost to both the Pistons (East) and Bulls (East) in the early 90s also it took the Jazz whom where getting there in the late 80s and early 90s till 1997 to get to the finals.

Bird > Magic....clearer than Water...:violin:


Lets talk facts
Magic 's team won more
Magic could run a fastbreak offense or half court better than Bird
Magic was just as good a post player and passing in the post
Bird was the better shooter
When needed Magic could score just a well as Bird
And the silly Larry Legend hype that he was some great defender everyone that saw them play knows Bird was not a good defender which is why Mchale had to defend Worthy and not bird.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[Loki]

Magic was just as good a post player

No, he wasn't.


When needed Magic could score just a well as Bird

This is nonsense. And please don't point me to their percentages to prove it, when Magic was getting numerous transition baskets every game that Bird wasn't. Bird was a better scorer than Magic, period. Their ppg averages, peaks, and the incidence of high scoring games (Magic had 4 games of 40+ from 1987-1991 while Bird had 26 such games despite being a cripple for 2-3 of those seasons) proves this.

Magic fans love to act as if Magic is as good a scorer as anyone who's ever played, which is a joke, really. Dude didn't even have a pull-up jumper, had no semblance of offensive footwork, couldn't move off the ball nearly as well, but he was as good a scorer as Bird? My ass.

[BIZARRO]

First of all Im not a Laker fan
Second like I said Bird lovers always had to make the excuse of why Magics team always won over Bird to save his name theyd just say Bird was better.


Once again. I don't know how old you are, but I ACTUALLY SAW both of their teams in their primes. And Magic always had a clearly better supporting cast.

If Bird played at Michigan State instead of Indiana State, and it was Bird, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, etc., then the results would be different.

I don't care if you think Magic was better, he very well may have been, but it is certainly not for the reason mentioned in your quote.

[BIZARRO]

Lets talk facts
Magic 's team won more
Magic could run a fastbreak offense or half court better than Bird
Magic was just as good a post player and passing in the post
Bird was the better shooter
When needed Magic could score just a well as Bird
And the silly Larry Legend hype that he was some great defender everyone that saw them play knows Bird was not a good defender which is why Mchale had to defend Worthy and not bird.

:banana: :banana: :banana:


And that is just an outrageous statement. :confusedshrug:

Magic Johnson doesn't need you to make insulting statements about Bird's game to state his case. Magic did well enough on his own.

[Maniak]

Magic will win this vote not based on facts, but based on the amount of retarded laker fans on this site.

Id take Bird over Magic meself, but not by much at all

[plowking]

Jordan/Pippen in the 1991 Finals. I don't remember Bird ever being guarded "way more tightly" than that.

Both MJ and Pippen where not as Tall or Strong as Magic and that accounts for only 1 season. Then Again Bird was guaded by Players ranging from 6`5 to 7`0. Bird also guarded players that ranged from 6`5 to 7`0:

Players that Bird was matched to Dr J, Dantley, James Worthy, Tom Chambers, Kevin Willis, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, Buck Williams Antoine Carr, Xavier McDaniel Clydre Drexler, Dominique Wilkins etc...while Jordan was usually guarded by Players that where not as Quick-Athletic and vary rarely as tall in teh case of Magic, awalys shorter and never as stocky.

At average Bird was guarded by Tougher Defenders. Any one can see that clearly

Yet, Magic has the better FG%, better eFG% and better TS% (which even takes into account 3-pointers).

Ofcourse you have a Better FG% if your Center is Arguably the Third or Second Greatest Center Ever and Much of Time Doubled Teamed. Not to mention having James Worthy and Jabbar as Both their Focal Scorers (whom had various ways to score) it gets quite easy compared to what Bird had in Parish (Bird made Parish, go look at the games) and McHale (whom rarely could do anything away from the Post)

Magic played with an All TimeTop 10 PER and All Time Top 5 EF

Kareem Player Efficiency Rating

1979-80 NBA 25.3 (2)
1980-81 NBA 25.5 (1)
1981-82 NBA 23.4 (5)
1982-83 NBA 23.6 (4)
1983-84 NBA 21.3 (10)
1984-85 NBA 22.9 (5)
1985-86 NBA 22.7 (6)

Career 24.6 (10)

McHale`s Top Days of PER Only

1985-86 NBA 21.6 (9)
1986-87 NBA 24.0 (5)
1987-88 NBA 21.9 (10)

Career NBA 20.0 (55)

PER values scoring over passing. It also adjusts the pace of all teams into one, which again doesn't do justice to a high pace-setter, like Magic, because it assumes that he and his teammates would dominate at the same rate playing at a slower tempo and that players of a slower team like Boston would dominate at the same rate playing faster. The difference isn't all that impressive, either and actually, Magic beats Bird in 8 of the 13 seasons they played (including the 1992 Bird vs 1996 Magic). Even if you took away Bird's past prime years, at best he'd take a slight edge. And then again, why not do the same thing for Magic? Take away his first 3 seasons, because Bird never played so young-and Bird was a late bloomer, he reached his peak at a somewhat old age.

Bird got injured in 1989. He was never the same after that :rolleyes: and anyone knows that Magic had a way Superior Cast to Magic from 1979 to 1989, the same year that Bird did not play much and his team went downhill while even after Magic left and Aging Worthy, Divac, Scott make a scare of the Suns in 92-93 without Magic After Bird left the Celtics did not do sh-it til 2008.

Oh, and Magic, as you said, had slightly better teammates, which makes it harder for him to individually dominate and post a better PER.

It makes it easier to have a high PER because you can concentrate on your Dominant Skills Then Over Produce, Make Others Over Produce for You and Your Game Weaknesses Can Be Set A Side and Covered Up by Others such as Magic being an Inferior Defender than Bird.

How do you measure clutchness? On game-winnng baskets alone it seems, since you mentioned these specific players. Competitiveness?
Like I've said before, people forget that Bird had quite a high number of unclutch moments and worse than average series. More ones than Magic, in fact. I can remember 2 series when Magic was clearly unclutch in losses: In 1981 against the Rockets and in 1984 against the Celtics (this was his worst series clutch-wise, although not the worst, number-wise). Bird was also unclutch in 1988, against the Pistons and in 1990 against the Knicks, so that ties him. Magic's next worst moment is in 1983, against the Sixers. But Bird lost even worse that year, because he got swept to a worse team, he had a healthier team and posted worse numbers. What follows for Magic? His 1991 series vs the Bulls? Still not worse than the 1985 series Bird had against the Lakers. And that still leaves out his 1980 and 1982 series against the Sixers and his 1987 against the Lakers. I'm not even counting his 1991 and 1992 series, due to him leaving his prime (and similarly, don't count Magic's 1996 one).

Magic Numbers where also helped by having Jabbar and Worthy and an All Around Better Casts Over The Years and All These Casts Pretty Much Prime.

Also while Magic had it easier in the Western Conference and was guarded by 6`0-6`4 PGs Bird was Guarded by SGs-SF-PFs and still was capable of outplaying All and Doing it All With Less Help than Magic.

You forgot that Magic was also 6'8-6'9 when performing his steals, where he led the league twice. Bird was also 6'9, but it's easier to steal the ball from a 6'6 forward than a 6'2 guard.

Your Forgot its EASIER TO BLOCK a 6`2 if you are 6`8 like Magic was and its Hard to to STEAL IT FROM one that is 6`5, 6`6 if you are at 6`9 1/2 like Bird was!. Anyone knows this: rolleyes: = 6`6 Players have Superior Ball Handling Skills and Speed compared to Players that are 6`9 plus. Bird got his Steals against these Dudes + Being The Greatest Timer Ever in Defense and against PFs All day Long. Yes he stole it from SGs, SFs and 6`9ers, 6`10ers, 6`11ers and even 7`0 PFs as he did against Kevin Willis in 88. Various time against the Dream in 86 etc.:confusedshrug:

While Magic at 6`9, 6`10 hardly ever Blocked his Matchups that where 6`2 at average. Magic`s 0.4 BPG for a 6`8-6`9 PG is not very excusable sorry :no: :confusedshrug:

And since you love Barkley and his quotes, let me remind you the one that said "as long as Larry Bird is around, I can only be the second worst defender".

Ofcourse because Barkley said that and he was right. He felt underrated because even though he wasn`t the Best of Post Defenders he was more than Average and his Intuition for Steals & Team Defense was Way Above Average in fact one of the Best just in the Same Way Bird was the Best at that in the League. Barkley was a master at Stealing the Balls from PFs-SFs and PGs too, reason why he has the Highest SPG avg for the PF Spot Ever and here you can see clips of that that proof of that:

At:1.26 Barkley Steals it From a PF that Tried to take Him Off the Dribble Away from the Paint

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=jwxGTjEwcg8

At: 0.39 Barkley Steals it from a PG/SG 1 on 1

Best quote of them all. Magic also scored more than most SG's, SF's, PF's and C's in the league (and obviously more than all PG's). He was also among the most efficient scorers ever, as I've shown before. So that must make him an equal scorer to Bird, right? He also dribbled better than all 6'9 players in history, so that must make him an equal dribbler to Pistol Pete, Isiah and Iverson, right?

Wrong FG% is an important measure but its most important If you Are the Focal Scorer which Magic was not. Magic benefited of Jabbar and Worthy getting All the Attention while Bird had to Create his Shot, Create for McHale and Bird, Rebound against PFs and Cs and also Play Better Defense, which he did Better than Bird. Magic was firstly the 3rd Go to Go Guy/Focal Scorer in his Team and Later the 2nd Go to Go Guy (as McHale was in the Celtics) while Bird was the 1st Go to Go Guy/Focal Scorer Always and Was as said before GUARDED WAY MORE AGRESSIVElY than Magic ever Was by SFs-PFs.

Ofcourse Magic was one of the Best Dribblers Ever but Basically one of the Smartest Dribblers Ever too and that is what linked him to Bird and Bird to Magic but that doesn`t take away that fact that overall its quite Clear that Bird was the Better Player.

Bird Dominate More Skills than Magic and Was the Go to Go Guy not later in his Career but Always. Birrd had to Take the Load like Pippen did in the Bulls except he also had to take the Scoring Load and be the Go to to Guy :violin:



:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeeessssss... That's exactly what Barkley meant when he called himself the second worst defender in the league. What he meant to say was that he is actually the best.

Common misconception.


EDIT: I'm still laughing at the fact you tried to put a positive spin on Barkleys comments even after he called himself the second worst defender in the league.

[Psileas]

Both MJ and Pippen where not as Tall or Strong as Magic and that accounts for only 1 season. Then Again Bird was guaded by Players ranging from 6`5 to 7`0. Bird also guarded players that ranged from 6`5 to 7`0:

Players that Bird was matched to Dr J, Dantley, James Worthy, Tom Chambers, Kevin Willis, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, Buck Williams Antoine Carr, Xavier McDaniel Clydre Drexler, Dominique Wilkins etc...while Jordan was usually guarded by Players that where not as Quick-Athletic and vary rarely as tall in teh case of Magic, awalys shorter and never as stocky.

At average Bird was guarded by Tougher Defenders. Any one can see that clearly

And among all these 12 guys, most of them weren't even noted for their defensive abilities. At least, I mentioned an All-NBA defender in D.J. You just mentioned the most athletic guys who defended Bird, which means little, really.


Ofcourse you have a Better FG% if your Center is Arguably the Third or Second Greatest Center Ever and Much of Time Doubled Teamed. Not to mention having James Worthy and Jabbar as Both their Focal Scorers (whom had various ways to score) it gets quite easy compared to what Bird had in Parish (Bird made Parish, go look at the games) and McHale (whom rarely could do anything away from the Post)

Jabbar stopped being the dominant center he was in 1987. Magic in 1987 averaged a career high 23.9 ppg and still shot at 52.2%. After this period followed a small decline, which is natural, considering the decline of the whole league's %'s after the mid-80's.
Worthy wasn't even present up to 1983, in 1983 he was a rookie and not the Worthy he became later. It was in 1985 when he became a regular starter for the team and Magic shot his best either with young Worthy or without Worthy at all.


Bird got injured in 1989. He was never the same after that and anyone knows that Magic had a way Superior Cast to Magic from 1979 to 1989, the same year that Bird did not play much and his team went downhill while even after Magic left and Aging Worthy, Divac, Scott make a scare of the Suns in 92-93 without Magic After Bird left the Celtics did not do sh-it til 2008.

Yeah, past prime Kareem, Scott and Worthy were worlds better than prime Parish, McHale and Dennis Johnson...Not to mention Walton's presence in 1986. Mentioning the Lakers after Magic only harms your case, since Worthy suddenly declined rapidly, and so did the whole team. From NBA finalists, they went to 43 and 39 wins and 2 first round exits. Yes, they did scare the Suns, but that's more a sign of negligence from the part of the Suns, rather than the Lakers showing strength. After all, they still only won 39 games and finished only 8th in the regular season. As evidenced in both their previous (1992) and next (1994) campaigns, that was just an exception. Hey, the Celtics won 48 games in 1993 without Bird. So, it's not as if they didn't do anything good on their own for a short period, either.


It makes it easier to have a high PER because you can concentrate on your Dominant Skills Then Over Produce, Make Others Over Produce for You and Your Game Weaknesses Can Be Set A Side and Covered Up by Others such as Magic being an Inferior Defender than Bird.

Is that why Magic had his best PER seasons when Kareem became 40 or wasn't even present? Is this why a 36+ y.o Magic, with worse teammates than Bird ever had, still produced a PER of 21.1? Is this why Magic even in 1991, playing for a significantly worse and slower team than the 1985-88 Lakers, still produced as many assists as he did back then?
Defense is irrelevant, anyway. PER doesn't measure defensive impact, other than steals and blocks, which aren't quite enough to determine who's the good defender and who isn't.


Magic Numbers where also helped by having Jabbar and Worthy and an All Around Better Casts Over The Years and All These Casts Pretty Much Prime.

See above. Magic's efficiency didn't exactly slide when his teammates stopped being that great.


Also while Magic had it easier in the Western Conference and was guarded by 6`0-6`4 PGs Bird was Guarded by SGs-SF-PFs and still was capable of outplaying All and Doing it All With Less Help than Magic.

You know, Magic wasn't always shooting from outside. He took it inside a lot of times and guess who he faced then: That's right, PF's and C's. It's no wonder that some of his most famous baskets have been made against Darryl Dawkins (in 1980), Kevin McHale (dunk), Pat Ewing (dunk), McHale and Parish combined (I don't even need to call this), etc.


Your Forgot its EASIER TO BLOCK a 6`2 if you are 6`8 like Magic was and its Hard to to STEAL IT FROM one that is 6`5, 6`6 if you are at 6`9 1/2 like Bird was!. Anyone knows this: rolleyes: = 6`6 Players have Superior Ball Handling Skills and Speed compared to Players that are 6`9 plus. Bird got his Steals against these Dudes + Being The Greatest Timer Ever in Defense and against PFs All day Long. Yes he stole it from SGs, SFs and 6`9ers, 6`10ers, 6`11ers and even 7`0 PFs as he did against Kevin Willis in 88. Various time against the Dream in 86 etc.

While Magic at 6`9, 6`10 hardly ever Blocked his Matchups that where 6`2 at average. Magic`s 0.4 BPG for a 6`8-6`9 PG is not very excusable sorry

Oh, now you remembered that Bird guarded shorter opponents. Still, you said yourself that Magic guarded "6'0-6'2" guys. These are PG's with the best handling skills of them all. Bird's opponents weren't PG's, plain and simple. And Magic still led the league in steals twice, being overall the tallest player to ever do it (let alone twice).
I never implied Magic was a good shot-blocker. Bird wasn't anything great, either, so his advantage isn't really something that stands out.


Ofcourse because Barkley said that and he was right. He felt underrated because even though he wasn`t the Best of Post Defenders he was more than Average and his Intuition for Steals & Team Defense was Way Above Average in fact one of the Best just in the Same Way Bird was the Best at that in the League. Barkley was a master at Stealing the Balls from PFs-SFs and PGs too, reason why he has the Highest SPG avg for the PF Spot Ever and here you can see clips of that that proof of that:

At:1.26 Barkley Steals it From a PF that Tried to take Him Off the Dribble Away from the Paint

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=jwxGTjEwcg8

At: 0.39 Barkley Steals it from a PG/SG 1 on 1

The others already commented on this...


Wrong FG% is an important measure but its most important If you Are the Focal Scorer which Magic was not. Magic benefited of Jabbar and Worthy getting All the Attention while Bird had to Create his Shot, Create for McHale and Bird, Rebound against PFs and Cs and also Play Better Defense, which he did Better than Bird. Magic was firstly the 3rd Go to Go Guy/Focal Scorer in his Team and Later the 2nd Go to Go Guy (as McHale was in the Celtics) while Bird was the 1st Go to Go Guy/Focal Scorer Always and Was as said before GUARDED WAY MORE AGRESSIVElY than Magic ever Was by SFs-PFs.

Ofcourse Magic was one of the Best Dribblers Ever but Basically one of the Smartest Dribblers Ever too and that is what linked him to Bird and Bird to Magic but that doesn`t take away that fact that overall its quite Clear that Bird was the Better Player.

Bird Dominate More Skills than Magic and Was the Go to Go Guy not later in his Career but Always. Birrd had to Take the Load like Pippen did in the Bulls except he also had to take the Scoring Load and be the Go to to Guy

Bird wasn't the focal passer of his team in the same sense that Magic was, either. The Celtics, having a lot of guys who could pass the ball, had no real focal passer.
My point is that because you're one of the best (or even the best) a your position at something players in your position aren't excellent at, this doesn't put you on par with the best in the league overall. Magic was the best rebounding PG ever. He was actually the best rebounding guard ever and rebounded better than many forwards, as well. This doesn't put him in the same category with Rodman, Moses, Wilt and Russell as a rebounder. Sabonis shot better than any center ever. This doesn't make him Larry Bird or Reggie Miller.

[Shepseskaf]

Magic was the best rebounding PG ever. He was actually the best rebounding guard ever and rebounded better than many forwards, as well.
Thank you for that excellent summary. Let's put this bogus argument to bed, for good.

Magic > Bird.

[Niquesports]

No, he wasn't.

Yes he was. An example of being a great post player as well as clutch rember his sky hook over Bird,Mchale and Parrish classic hey didnt that shot help win a special game Im not sure just guess:roll:
This is nonsense. And please don't point me to their percentages to prove it, when Magic was getting numerous transition baskets every game that Bird wasn't. Bird was a better scorer than Magic, period. Their ppg averages, peaks, and the incidence of high scoring games (Magic had 4 games of 40+ from 1987-1991 while Bird had 26 such games despite being a cripple for 2-3 of those seasons) proves this.

First of all scoring was Birds role distributing the ball was Magics What I said was When needed Magic could score at will just as well as Bird I do recall Magic developing a decent 3 poit shot later in his career to go along with those numerous transition baskets.


Magic fans love to act as if Magic is as good a scorer as anyone who's ever played, which is a joke, really. Dude didn't even have a pull-up jumper, had no semblance of offensive footwork, couldn't move off the ball nearly as well, but he was as good a scorer as Bird? My ass.

Makes you made huh A city boy with all that flash with no offensive footwork no pull up jumper and cant move off the ball was a better all around player than your Legend. What I know must have really made you made is seeing Magic lead his team to a Repeat. Anothing Bird was just unable to do.:cheers:

[Niquesports]

And that is just an outrageous statement. :confusedshrug:

Magic Johnson doesn't need you to make insulting statements about Bird's game to state his case. Magic did well enough on his own.


Whats insulting and outrageous about saying BIrd wasnt a great defender he wasnt he was average at best.

[dhenk]

Well, after reading 7 pages full of BS from both sides, I think nothing is proven.

Magic has so-and-so finals appearances = the west was inferior to the east with MJ

[2LeTTeRS]

This is a close comparision and anybody who thinks one player has a slam dunk arguement over the other knows nothing about basketball. I'd take Magic maybe 6 times out of 10, but would be more than happy with Bird.

[Niquesports]

[QUOTE=dhenk]Well, after reading 7 pages full of BS from both sides, I think nothing is proven.

Magic has so-and-so finals appearances = the west was inferior to the east with MJ

[Sir Charles]

[QUOTE=dhenk]Well, after reading 7 pages full of BS from both sides, I think nothing is proven.

Magic has so-and-so finals appearances = the west was inferior to the east with MJ

[Sir Charles]

Whats insulting and outrageous about saying BIrd wasnt a great defender he wasnt he was average at best.

He was a Better Defender than Magic :confusedshrug:

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Magic was 3 years younger than Bird

Magic could play all 5 positons.

Kareem was NOT at a top 5 all-time level when he played with Magic, he was old.

Magic beat Bird 3-1 in head to head championship play(NCAA, 3 Finals)

In fact the last time they met in 87 Magic THROTTLED him.

Larry wasn't a better defender than Magic, he was just guarding guys his own size or or a little smaller most of the time. Magic was at a disadvantage at his position. Hell Magic led the league in steals.

Magic was just as a good a rebounder...except he was grabbing boards from the PG position, hes not going to get as many as a guy playing from the 3.

Bird was a better shooter. He was more of a high volume scorer BUT, Magic shot significantly higher from the field(he was more efficient) he was better at getting to the rack and had a great post game.

No, prime Bird isn't better than prime Magic. Hell, non prime Magic was giving prime Bird everything he could handle and beating him in the Finals.

end of thread.

[IllegalD]

end of thread.

Magic played with KAREEM.

/END THREAD.

I don't f*cking care if Kareem was past his prime, we're still talking about ONE OF THE GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME.

Funny, how Kobe gets all sorts of flack for not having won without a dominant big on his team, yet Magic gets a free pass (keep in mind, even though Magic was the engine that ran the Showtime offense, and has won Reg Season MVPs as well as Final's MVPs, he NEVER won anything WITHOUT Kareem [a dominant big]). But Kareem DID win WITHOUT Magic (as a Buck, with Oscar Robertson).

A past-his-prime KAJ would still be a top big-man in the league today.

[BIZARRO]

Kareem was already past his prime when Magic entered the league. In 1987, when Magic beat Bird in the finals, Kareem wasn't only past his prime, but he was worse than not one but two big men Bird had on his team. The following year, he won yet again, when Kareem was even worse and declining quickly. Magic led his team to the finals without Kareem. How many finals appearances does Bird have without Parish? How many finals appearances does Bird have without McHale?

Once again, I'm not even saying Bird was better than Magic, but these questions are ridiculous. :confusedshrug:

Bird played all but his rookie year with Parish and Mchale. So how can you expect a realistic answer.

However, Bird DID win a title with a 10ppg rookie Mchale, and turned a 29-53 team before he got there into a 61-21 team WITHOUT PARISH OR MCHALE.

Pretty incredible. Think about that turnaround.

You don't need to ask loaded questions to make your point. Magic's record stands up for itself.

[IllegalD]

Kareem was already past his prime when Magic entered the league. In 1987, when Magic beat Bird in the finals, Kareem wasn't only past his prime, but he was worse than not one but two big men Bird had on his team. The following year, he won yet again, when Kareem was even worse and declining quickly. Magic led his team to the finals without Kareem. How many finals appearances does Bird have without Parish? How many finals appearances does Bird have without McHale?

McHale was a rookie when Bird won his first chip (and wasn't yet at that All-star Level). I'll give you Parish.

But beside KAJ, Magic also had Worthy, Michael Cooper, Byron Scott, Norm Nixon, Bob McAdoo.

[TmacsRockets]

Magic played with KAREEM.

/END THREAD.

I don't f*cking care if Kareem was past his prime, we're still talking about ONE OF THE GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME.

Funny, how Kobe gets all sorts of flack for not having won without a dominant big on his team, yet Magic gets a free pass (keep in mind, even though Magic was the engine that ran the Showtime offense, and has won Reg Season MVPs as well as Final's MVPs, he NEVER won anything WITHOUT Kareem [a dominant big]). But Kareem DID win WITHOUT Magic (as a Buck, with Oscar Robertson).

A past-his-prime KAJ would still be a top big-man in the league today.


Magic won 3 Finals MVP's, 3 Season MVP's big difference. Kobe has 0 finals MVP's.

[Psileas]

[QUOTE]Well, after reading 7 pages full of BS from both sides, I think nothing is proven.

Magic has so-and-so finals appearances = the west was inferior to the east with MJ

[Revelation]

The majority opinion among experts is that Bird was better in his prime. However, Magic had the better career and is usually considered the better player. Regardless, in my book, they are both top 5 without question.

[IllegalD]

Magic won 3 Finals MVP's, 3 Season MVP's big difference. Kobe has 0 finals MVP's.

Yes, thank you for repeating what I already indicated in my original posts.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that Magic got to play with a HOF center (who even past his prime would still be a top big-man in the league today).

You know who else has Finals MVPs?

Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Dennis Johnson

[BIZARRO]

This is the most interesting quote I've seen thus far in this thread, from a November 12th, 1986 New York Times article:

"There is no question he is the greatest player today," said Hubie Brown, the New York Knicks' coach. "He is already at a level very few people will reach, no matter what their profession. He has stature of almost awe, not only from coaches and fans, but from his peers."


Because Hubie is usually pretty dead on, and even if you think he isn't, the fact that he said "There is no question he is the greatest player today" etc. back then is some pretty strong stuff.

It gives some pretty good vision to revisionist history.

[BIZARRO]

The majority opinion among experts is that Bird was better in his prime. However, Magic had the better career and is usually considered the better player. Regardless, in my book, they are both top 5 without question.

I'd agree with this. But once again, it is all on your definition of "better player". Career or prime?

For example, was Franco Harris a better player than Gale Sayers? Emmit Smith better than Barry Sanders?

I think "career" with too much emphasis on ISH, as there are too many variables. I choose a player's prime with more weight; looking at them play and quite franky just saying who's better.

But after all of these years I'm still not sure between Magic and Bird. So you see where that gets you. :D

[Rasheed1]

Magic is, was, and will always be better than Larry Bird

beat him in college...


bested him in the pros when it came to chips (which is all that mattered to those 2)


the rivalry was won by magic johnson

[eliteballer]

1985 Finals

Magic: 18.3 pts, 6.8 reb, 14.0 ast, 2.2 stl, 0.0 blk, 49.4 FG%, 50 3FG%, 87.1 FT%, 39.2 mpg

Bird: 23.8 pts, 8.8 reb, 5.0 ast, 1.8 stl, .7 blk, 44.9 FG%, 33.3 3FG%, 85 FT%, 40.2 mpg


1987 Finals

Magic: 26.2 pts, 8.0 reb, 13.0 ast, 2.3 stl, .3 blk, 54.1 FG%, 50 3FG%, 96 FT%, 39.3 MPG

Bird: 24.2 pts, 10.0 reb, 5.0 ast, 1.2 stl, 1.2 blk, 44.5 FG%, 50 3FG%, 92.1 FT%, 42.3 MPG

MAGIC BEAT BIRD 3-1 IN CHAMPIONSHIP PLAY. DOMINATED HIM IN 2 OF 3 FINALS. WHAT ELSE NEEDS TO BE SAID

[BIZARRO]

Magic is, was, and will always be better than Larry Bird

beat him in college...


bested him in the pros when it came to chips (which is all that mattered to those 2)


the rivalry was won by magic johnson


Thanks for reading the rest of the thread before posting. :cheers:

[eliteballer]

PRIME BIRD IS SO GOOD MAGIC OWNED HIM IN THE FINALS:roll:

[Niquesports]

:applause:

I have already given evidence that Bird was Better than Magic and people just can`t seem to proove otherise :confusedshrug:

Also it get`s quite easier having Superior Casts and Playing in a Weaker Defensive Conference than what Bird played in. If Bird played in the Weaker Wester Conference his Stats would be like that of the 1986 Finals for 8 or so years and with a higher FG%

End:sleeping


What world do you live in. All you did was pull up some stats voice some opinions and because its how you feel you wanna say its fact. Its hard to take you serious when you go on and on about a player Sir Fat Azz that not even a top 5 PF. So what makes your opinion fact.

This trash about if Bird played in the West Well Magic had to beat East teams 5 times to win his titles. So that weak conf. argument is weak.Out side of shooting what can Bird do better than Magic ?????????????????? really

[Rasheed1]

Thanks for reading the rest of the thread before posting. :cheers:


nothing written in this thread changes any of that :cheers: no need to waste time like that

[2LeTTeRS]

Thanks for reading the rest of the thread before posting. :cheers:


How can you commment on somebody else reading the thread when you just quoted Korki Buchek and said he was "asking loaded questions" when he just was replying to a similarly loaded question. You might need to follow you're own advice.

[Younggrease]

How old are people commenting on this? I cant make a determination because I just havent seen enough of both of them live to make an absolute determination. I have seen a good amount of their games but its different then watching the games that they played that werent deemed amazing or meaningful. Id take Magic if I had to make a choice but that is because I met him when I little, Im a lakers fan, and he is a pg with insane versatility. But the more i watch of Bird the more I see things that just make me rember why I started playing bball. Guy was insanely creative, saw a tape of him and it was the first time since high school that on the same day I went to the gym and tried to pratice one of the passes he did in the off chance I would be in the situation to ever pull it off.

look at the ball fake at :38 and the freaking fake pass around the big while in the air then pass it to himself off the rim....That is the type of stuff that you dont see in the league today or just not at the level. It seems like the new breed of players dont have that feel and if they do they combine it with the insane skill work needed to put together the stuff Bird did(at least what I see from when I watch him)

[Niquesports]

Once again, I'm not even saying Bird was better than Magic, but these questions are ridiculous. :confusedshrug:

Bird played all but his rookie year with Parish and Mchale. So how can you expect a realistic answer.

However, Bird DID win a title with a 10ppg rookie Mchale, and turned a 29-53 team before he got there into a 61-21 team WITHOUT PARISH OR MCHALE.

Pretty incredible. Think about that turnaround.

You don't need to ask loaded questions to make your point. Magic's record stands up for itself.


This is some more larry Legend hype.
Lets set the record straight about the 79-80 Celtics
In 78-79 season the Celtics had a team in disarray 18 different players
2 coaches one got fired and the second was a player coach Dave Cowens.
They were old
Come in Larry Bird but he brings with him a better Cedrick Maxwell Tiny takes over a the point guard old players like Dave Bing and Jo Jo White are replaced by younger players and they keep the same 12 players all season. So to correct you it wasnt all BIrd the "TEAM" got better.

[eliteballer]

You know what I find most absurd about this thread. People like LOCO talking like they know Magic's game, and then telling us he didn't have a pull-up jumper:lol

[Niquesports]

McHale was a rookie when Bird won his first chip (and wasn't yet at that All-star Level). I'll give you Parish.

But beside KAJ, Magic also had Worthy, Michael Cooper, Byron Scott, Norm Nixon, Bob McAdoo.


And Bird had Tiny DJ Ainge Walton Maxwell your point

[eliteballer]

Dont forget Tiny Archibald.

[Niquesports]

This is the most interesting quote I've seen thus far in this thread, from a November 12th, 1986 New York Times article:

"There is no question he is the greatest player today," said Hubie Brown, the New York Knicks' coach. "He is already at a level very few people will reach, no matter what their profession. He has stature of almost awe, not only from coaches and fans, but from his peers."


Because Hubie is usually pretty dead on, and even if you think he isn't, the fact that he said "There is no question he is the greatest player today" etc. back then is some pretty strong stuff.

It gives some pretty good vision to revisionist history.


I Felt this was a interesting quote also

In the Chicago Sun -TimesMagic is head and shoulders above EVERYONE else I've never seen anybody as good as him
Larry Bird

[Loki]

look at the ball fake at :38 and the freaking fake pass around the big while in the air then pass it to himself off the rim....That is the type of stuff that you dont see in the league today or just not at the level. It seems like the new breed of players dont have that feel and if they do they combine it with the insane skill work needed to put together the stuff Bird did(at least what I see from when I watch him)

What video are you referring to?


You know what I find most absurd about this thread. People like LOCO talking like they know Magic's game, and then telling us he didn't have a pull-up jumper:lol

He didn't. I'm sure he hit a few in his career out of dire necessity, but he had no pull up to speak of. And by "pull up," I don't mean coming down, stopping at the 3-point line as the defender backs off, and launching. I'm talking facing up, taking one or two dribbles to a side with the defender riding you, and stopping on a dime and pulling up. Magic didn't have that. Period. I'm sure he's done it, but he wasn't even what one could call competent at it. Guys hit halfcourt shots too, but we don't suggest that it's in their arsenal as a result of that.

[eliteballer]

Loco, loco, LOCO!:oldlol:

9:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGZIxMoQnPE&feature=related

[Niquesports]

What video are you referring to?



He didn't. I'm sure he hit a few in his career out of dire necessity, but he had no pull up to speak of. And by "pull up," I don't mean coming down, stopping at the 3-point line as the defender backs off, and launching. I'm talking facing up, taking one or two dribbles to a side with the defender riding you, and stopping on a dime and pulling up. Magic didn't have that. Period. I'm sure he's done it, but he wasn't even what one could call competent at it. Guys hit halfcourt shots too, but we don't suggest that it's in their arsenal as a result of that.


So what is your point ???????????????????????? I dont care if he couldnt dunk he still could score 25 points any night his team needed him to. This is like saying Kareem didnt have a crossover move.

[Younggrease]

What video are you referring to?



.
youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RZojveJhJ8&feature=PlayList&p=7F95FC33E153D2BC&index=0

[Godfather]

Yes, thank you for repeating what I already indicated in my original posts.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that Magic got to play with a HOF center (who even past his prime would still be a top big-man in the league today).

You know who else has Finals MVPs?

Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Dennis Johnson

I don't know what you are trying to say, but Kobe also played with a HOF center (Shaq) who was the top big man in the league the majority of his career.

[2LeTTeRS]

Yes, thank you for repeating what I already indicated in my original posts.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that Magic got to play with a HOF center (who even past his prime would still be a top big-man in the league today).

You know who else has Finals MVPs?

Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Dennis Johnson

So wait playing with good players automatically makes players worse now? This has to be the dumbest arguement I've seen on this board.

[BIZARRO]

So wait playing with good players automatically makes players worse now? This has to be the dumbest arguement I've seen on this board.


No, but if you are using TEAM accomplishments to compare their individual greatness then the quality of their team is certainly a variable, and weighs into the equation positively or negatively.

I didn't need 6 championships to tell me Michael Jordan was the greatest ever in '90. But some people on here weigh greatness by team success/championships which is only part.

To respond to these arguments, Magic's, Bird's, Jordan's, Kobe's, Shaq's, supporting casts need to be taken into consideration.

[Sir Charles]

Kareem + Magic + Worthy > Bird + McHale + Parish

Anyone can see that...


but...

Bird > Magic :rolleyes:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lakers without Kareem before Magic = [B]Play-Off Contenders and Winning Records every year except for 1, Kareem`s 1st year with the Lakers...totally excusable..

1976-77: 53-29 Winning Record
1977-78: 45-37 Winning Record
1978-79: 47-35 Winning Record

Lakers without Kareem = No Championships

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celtics without Bird:

1977-78: 32-50 Loosing Record
1978-79: 29-53 Loosing Record
1979-80: 61-21 Wiining Record

Bird Without Parish & McHale = Winning Record
McHale and Parish without Bird, Hardly a Play-Off Contender

1988-89 Bird Goes Down: 42-40 Hardly a Winning Record
1989-90: Bird Comes Back: 52-30: Winning Record

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13

7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

Kareem`s Season by Season PER

1969-70 NBA 22.5 (2)
1970-71 NBA 29.0 (1)
1971-72 NBA 29.9 (1)
1972-73 NBA 28.5 (1)
1973-74 NBA 24.4 (2)
1974-75 NBA 26.4 (1)
1975-76 NBA 27.2 (1)
1976-77 NBA 27.8 (1)
1977-78 NBA 29.2 (1)
1978-79 NBA 25.5 (1)
1979-80 NBA 25.3 (2)
1980-81 NBA 25.5 (1)
1981-82 NBA 23.4 (5)
1982-83 NBA 23.6 (4)
1983-84 NBA 21.3 (10)
1984-85 NBA 22.9 (5)
1985-86 NBA 22.7 (6)

Kareem Already Greatest Center and Top Player without Magic and as Time Aged He Was Not As Great as Before but As Great as Most Top Players :confusedshrug:

Kareem`s Rank in All-Time Play-Off PER

1. Michael Jordan 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.47
4. Tim Duncan 26.04
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tracy McGrady 24.66
7. Charles Barkley* 24.18
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.02
9. LeBron James 23.80
10. Dolph Schayes* 23.24
11. Dwyane Wade 23.21
12. Kevin Garnett 23.19
13. Jerry West* 23.07
14. David Robinson 23.03
15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
16. Magic Johnson* 22.95

24. Larry Bird* 21.40

Where is

[Loki]

Loco, loco, LOCO!:oldlol:

9:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGZIxMoQnPE&feature=related

...


And by "pull up," I don't mean coming down, stopping at the 3-point line as the defender backs off, and launching. I'm talking facing up, taking one or two dribbles to a side with the defender riding you, and stopping on a dime and pulling up.

Nice try, though.

[Loki]

So what is your point ???????????????????????? I dont care if he couldnt dunk he still could score 25 points any night his team needed him to. This is like saying Kareem didnt have a crossover move.

My point was that he wasn't as good a scorer as Bird.

[2LeTTeRS]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles]Kareem + Magic + Worthy > Bird + McHale + Parish

Anyone can see that...


but...

Bird > Magic :rolleyes:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lakers without Kareem before Magic = [B]Play-Off Contenders and Winning Records every year except for 1, Kareem`s 1st year with the Lakers...totally excusable..

1976-77: 53-29 Winning Record
1977-78: 45-37 Winning Record
1978-79: 47-35 Winning Record

Lakers without Kareem = No Championships

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celtics without Bird:

1977-78: 32-50 Loosing Record
1978-79: 29-53 Loosing Record
1979-80: 61-21 Wiining Record

Bird Without Parish & McHale = Winning Record
McHale and Parish without Bird, Hardly a Play-Off Contender

1988-89 Bird Goes Down: 42-40 Hardly a Winning Record
1989-90: Bird Comes Back: 52-30: Winning Record

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13

7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

Kareem`s Season by Season PER

1969-70 NBA 22.5 (2)
1970-71 NBA 29.0 (1)
1971-72 NBA 29.9 (1)
1972-73 NBA 28.5 (1)
1973-74 NBA 24.4 (2)
1974-75 NBA 26.4 (1)
1975-76 NBA 27.2 (1)
1976-77 NBA 27.8 (1)
1977-78 NBA 29.2 (1)
1978-79 NBA 25.5 (1)
1979-80 NBA 25.3 (2)
1980-81 NBA 25.5 (1)
1981-82 NBA 23.4 (5)
1982-83 NBA 23.6 (4)
1983-84 NBA 21.3 (10)
1984-85 NBA 22.9 (5)
1985-86 NBA 22.7 (6)

Kareem Already Greatest Center and Top Player without Magic and as Time Aged He Was Not As Great as Before but As Great as Most Top Players :confusedshrug:

Kareem`s Rank in All-Time Play-Off PER

1. Michael Jordan 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.47
4. Tim Duncan 26.04
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tracy McGrady 24.66
7. Charles Barkley* 24.18
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.02
9. LeBron James 23.80
10. Dolph Schayes* 23.24
11. Dwyane Wade 23.21
12. Kevin Garnett 23.19
13. Jerry West* 23.07
14. David Robinson 23.03
15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
16. Magic Johnson* 22.95

24. Larry Bird* 21.40

Where is

[Niquesports]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles]Kareem + Magic + Worthy > Bird + McHale + Parish

Anyone can see that...


but...

Bird > Magic :rolleyes:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lakers without Kareem before Magic = [B]Play-Off Contenders and Winning Records every year except for 1, Kareem`s 1st year with the Lakers...totally excusable..

1976-77: 53-29 Winning Record
1977-78: 45-37 Winning Record
1978-79: 47-35 Winning Record

Lakers without Kareem = No Championships

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celtics without Bird:

1977-78: 32-50 Loosing Record
1978-79: 29-53 Loosing Record
1979-80: 61-21 Wiining Record

Bird Without Parish & McHale = Winning Record
McHale and Parish without Bird, Hardly a Play-Off Contender

1988-89 Bird Goes Down: 42-40 Hardly a Winning Record
1989-90: Bird Comes Back: 52-30: Winning Record

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13

7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

Kareem`s Season by Season PER

1969-70 NBA 22.5 (2)
1970-71 NBA 29.0 (1)
1971-72 NBA 29.9 (1)
1972-73 NBA 28.5 (1)
1973-74 NBA 24.4 (2)
1974-75 NBA 26.4 (1)
1975-76 NBA 27.2 (1)
1976-77 NBA 27.8 (1)
1977-78 NBA 29.2 (1)
1978-79 NBA 25.5 (1)
1979-80 NBA 25.3 (2)
1980-81 NBA 25.5 (1)
1981-82 NBA 23.4 (5)
1982-83 NBA 23.6 (4)
1983-84 NBA 21.3 (10)
1984-85 NBA 22.9 (5)
1985-86 NBA 22.7 (6)

Kareem Already Greatest Center and Top Player without Magic and as Time Aged He Was Not As Great as Before but As Great as Most Top Players :confusedshrug:

Kareem`s Rank in All-Time Play-Off PER

1. Michael Jordan 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.47
4. Tim Duncan 26.04
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tracy McGrady 24.66
7. Charles Barkley* 24.18
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.02
9. LeBron James 23.80
10. Dolph Schayes* 23.24
11. Dwyane Wade 23.21
12. Kevin Garnett 23.19
13. Jerry West* 23.07
14. David Robinson 23.03
15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
16. Magic Johnson* 22.95

24. Larry Bird* 21.40

Where is

[Niquesports]

So wait the Celts were arguably the best team ever, and lost to the Magic and the Lakers 2 times while winning once, and you're using that as a point in favor of Bird? Bird didn't play for the Cavs, his team had arguably the best frontcourt ever, these teams were equal.

And why are you only showing Kareem's stats either pre-Magic or in Magic's first season? What about the Lakers making the Finals after Kareem retired and in 2 of his last 3 years? Writing in bold or in different colors don't make you're points any better.


Not to mention that Bird also had a TOP 50 HOF point guard in Tiny
and another should be HOF in DJ

[Niquesports]

My point was that he wasn't as good a scorer as Bird.


Thats because his team didnt need him to be a big time scorer but when he needed to he was just as effective a scorer as Bird

[Nevaeh]

Yes, thank you for repeating what I already indicated in my original posts.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that Magic got to play with a HOF center (who even past his prime would still be a top big-man in the league today).

You know who else has Finals MVPs?

Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Dennis Johnson
You Forgot Dwyane Wade, who also played with a HOF center WELL PASSED his prime ;)

[Loki]

Thats because his team didnt need him to be a big time scorer but when he needed to he was just as effective a scorer as Bird

No, he wasn't. That was my point. Magic fans like to act like Magic was as good a scorer as anyone who ever played, but that's simply not the case.

[Niquesports]

No, he wasn't. That was my point. Magic fans like to act like Magic was as good a scorer as anyone who ever played, but that's simply not the case.


I never said that ever played but if I do believe that if it wasnt so important to Magic to keep everyone in the game he would have taken many more shots and scored moreFor you to think that he was avg. close to 20 pts a game for a career while at the same time getting double digts in asst. he could not have settled for maybe 8 asst and made 3 to 5 more shots .Many times on breaks he would bring the defender to him just to get his man open and make the pass for a eaasy llay up for his teammate.

[Maniak]

Johnson wasn't even fit to suck Bird's johnson. Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time bar none.

:roll:

This guy just doesn't stop.