MJ vs Zone defense (BRILLIANT!!!)

[Da_Realist]

What a BRILLIANT edit! :eek:

Jordanhair, if you are on here, you did a GREAT job!

:cheers:

MJ vs Zone defense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE)

*** This is clearly in response to this video made by KB42PAH -- Kobe vs Zone defense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc) ***

[juju151111]

kb42pah got owned bad with his own voice.

[Younggrease]

I find it funny how almost no one who makes these videos has a clear understanding of the old illegal defense rule and new rules.

[Cyclone112]

omg, that is fantastic. i look forward to seeing what that idiot kb42pah has to say about this video.

[juju151111]

I find it funny how almost no one who makes these videos has a clear understanding of the old illegal defense rule and new rules.
Did u watch the vid??He nows the rules he even says it in the vid.

[Younggrease]

Did u watch the vid??He nows the rules he even says it in the vid.

I was talking about the Kobe video and a video Blitz guy made...didnt watch but the first 20 seconds of this vid because I have seen enough of both players to form an informed opinion about what types of defenses they have faced.

there is still a difference between what happend now and what happened in Jordans time. Not saying whether one was harder or not just that they were different in terms of zone and ANY1 trying to say they were near the same is ridicolous.

[juju151111]

I was talking about the Kobe video and a video Blitz guy made...didnt watch but the first 20 seconds of this vid because I have seen enough of both players to form an informed opinion about what types of defenses they have faced.

there is still a difference between what happend now and what happened in Jordans time. Not saying whether one was harder or not just that they were different in terms of zone and ANY1 trying to say they were near the same is ridicolous.
T think they basically faced the same defense.Some rules today wasn't back then like zone.Back then they had no 3 sec rule etc.... MJ wizard come back showed Mj could play in any era.

[Scott Pippen]

I find it funny how almost no one who makes these videos has a clear understanding of the old illegal defense rule and new rules.
this was made to show how easy anyone can make mix like this about any good player. Maybe to steer a few blind sheep from KB42Pah's hypnosis so they come up with their own opinion and not let media and idiot fans tell them otherwise:applause:

[sommervilleCdn]

kb42pah got owned bad with his own voice.

i shouldn't laff..but that's a great ad homenim :roll:

/da realist came with a strong vid link

[Da KO King]

I find it funny how almost no one who makes these videos has a clear understanding of the old illegal defense rule and new rules.
Not just illegal defense rules but also lack understanding of helpside defense.

[ronnymac]

MJ is the greatest player ever to grace the basketball court. only kobe groupies disagree.

[picc84]

That was pretty good. The ownage with his own voice was pretty genius. :oldlol:

Why couldn't that dude have just left Jordan out of his video? Just make your point about Boston and their illegal plays and don't mention MJ. Nothing good ever comes out of it.

[TmacsRockets]

So now that it has been proven, why does Kobe not perform well when it matters?

[RoseCity07]

So now that it has been proven, why does Kobe not perform well when it matters?


Lol

[OneMoreSucka]

Oh my god that kid sniffling is annoying as sh|t.

Lay off the white lady, man.

[Godfather]

What a BRILLIANT edit! :eek:

Jordanhair, if you are on here, you did a GREAT job!

:cheers:

MJ vs Zone defense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE)

*** This is clearly in response to this video made by KB42PAH -- Kobe vs Zone defense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc) ***
Amazing Job! Let the Jordan comparisons stop. :applause:

This is a testament to how great, brilliant, amazing, Kobe is...

[Da_Realist]

Dude just sent me an updated video that he claims is even better. (I hadn't checked it out yet).

Better Version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE)

** edit **
Looks like the same video with some chinese descriptions. It has a few minor changes near the end.

[Godfather]

KB24 is on. I would love to see him reply to this.

[KB42PAH]

This is a well made video - JordanHair did a goodjob.

But again, all you see is help defense and double teams. No zone defense is shown here. Help defense has always been allowed, and double-teams are actually easy to deal with because its a principle of man-to-man defense- one guy is always left open.

-Fact of the matter is today's players are taller (the swingmen, league hieght does not matter.) Joe Dumars was a fat midget 6''3 and supposedly best defender on Jordan..what a joke.
-Zone was illegal back then.

2000-present:

Point Guards: Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Deron Williams, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Baron Davis, T.J Ford, Monta Ellis, Devin Harris, Jose Calderon, Mike Bibby, Kirk Hinrich, Andre Miller
Shooting Guards (Swingmen): Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Allen Iverson, Manu Ginobili, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Gilbert Arenas, Jason Richardson, Brandon Roy, Vince, Carter, Michael Finely, J.R Smith, Sam Cassell, Leandro Barbosa, Raja Bell, Kevin Martin, Ben Gordan, Jamal Crawford, Anthony Parker, Bruce Bowen, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse
Small Forwards (Swingmen): Lebron James, Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce, Carmelo Anthony, Shawn Marion , Danny Granger, James Posey, Peja Stojakovic, Gerald Wallace, Ron Artest, Stephan Jackson, Richard Jefferson, Tayshaun Prince, Josh Smith, Andre Kirelenko, Josh Howard, Jason Kapono, Shane Battier
Power Forwards: Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Amare Stoudamire, David West, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Rasheed Wallace, Elton Brand, Chris Bosh, Carlos Boozer, Jermaine O'neal, Al Jefferson, Emeka Okafur, Kenyon Martin
Centers: Shaquille O'neal, Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, Ben Wallace, Andrew Bynum, Tyson Chandler, Zydrunas Illgauskus, Chris Caman, Marcus Camby, Mehmet Okur.

- This era has the best point guards, the best shooters, the best perimeter defenders, and the best bigmen.
- The number elite swingmen has increased.
- Many of these players would be HOF Legends if they played in previous weaker eras
- The game is just so much better, the influx of foriegn players, 7 footers who can shoot and spread the floor, its truly a global game now.

Compare this with the 90's

1990s:

Point Guards: John Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Gary Payton, Stever Kerr, John Paxson, Scott Skiles
Shooting Guards (Swingmen):Michael Jordan, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Penny Hardaway, Harold Miner, John Starks, Grant Hill, Jeff Hornacek
Small Forwards (Swingmen): Scottie Pippen, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Toni Kukoc
Power Forwards: Karl Malone, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, Horace Grant, Tom Chambers,Shawn Kemp
Centers: Hakeem Olajuwan, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, Arvday Sabonis, Dikembe Mutumbo

- A lot of these players from the 1990s are great players obviously....but still todays player are far better. There is simply more competition. They players are bigger, taller, and stronger.
- It's funny how the 90's Bulls had:
- The best SG, SF, PF
- The best shooter in Steve Kerr
- The best defenders in Pippen and Rodman
- The best Rebounder in Rodman
- 4 All-Stars were on that team: Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Grant.
- When Jordan retired, Pippen still lead the jordan-less Bulls to 55 wins.
- Pretty funny that people think MJ won all those rings by himself.

Now you can see why I called the 90's a watered down era. I hope this clarifies it. The 90s are still better than 50s,60s, and 70s. The 80s and 90s are pretty similar competitively in my opinion.

[gotbacon23]

2000-present:


Centers: Shaquille O'neal, Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, Ben Wallace, Andrew Bynum, Tyson Chandler, Zydrunas Illgauskus, Chris Caman, Marcus Camby, Mehmet Okur.



1990s:


Centers: Hakeem Olajuwan, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, Arvday Sabonis, Dikembe Mutumbo



you list shaq as a 2000s center only and alonzo mourning as a 1990s center only... they were rookies the same year (1992-93)... how does that make any sense?

[KB42PAH]

So now that it has been proven, why does Kobe not perform well when it matters?


Why does Tmac 6''8, with length other nba players can only dream off, who can dunk from the free throw line, struggle to beat the Jazz with Yao ming (the games best center) and Shane Battier (the games best perimeter defender - who is also a deadly 3 point shooter?

lmao

[Godfather]

KB how do you account for hand checking + double teams, don't see many of those come at your hero.

[KB42PAH]

you list shaq as a 2000s center only and alonzo mourning as a 1990s center only... they were rookies the same year (1992-93)... how does that make any sense?

There will be overlap always, but their primes were at different times. Fact of the matter is shaq won titles in 2000,2001,2002,2006. He is 2000-present.

[KB42PAH]

KB how do you account for hand checking + double teams, don't see many of those come at your hero.

What?

Did you see my boston video? I showed like 10 examples of hand-checking non-calls in there very clearly.

[juju151111]

you list shaq as a 2000s center only and alonzo mourning as a 1990s center only... they were rookies the same year (1992-93)... how does that make any sense?
He is pah wat do u expect?

[gotbacon23]

There will be overlap always, but their primes were at different times. Fact of the matter is shaq won titles in 2000,2001,2002,2006. He is 2000-present.
my point being is that it ignored the fact that he played VERY WELL in the 1990s as well. you didn't list him because if you did, it makes your argument weaker. having him not on the list in the 1990s is just stupid as he was one of the best centers in the 1990s as well. all your argument is, is a list of players anyway without saying why they are better or anything like that.

[KB42PAH]

my point being is that it ignored the fact that he played VERY WELL in the 1990s as well. you didn't list him because if you did, it makes your argument weaker. having him not on the list in the 1990s is just stupid as he was one of the best centers in the 1990s as well. all your argument is, is a list of players anyway without saying why they are better or anything like that.


Should kobe be a 90's player then too? he was 96 class...you dont' go by class.

[Godfather]

What?

Did you see my boston video? I showed like 10 examples of hand-checking non-calls in there very clearly.

10 examples compared to a hundred examples of hand checking (legal) against MJ in any given series and 10+ examples of illegal defense no calls.

[gotbacon23]

Should kobe be a 90's player then too? he was 96 class...you dont' go by class.

its not going by class... but saying that the 1990s were weaker cause the 2000s had shaq is ignoring the fact that shaq was a dominant force in the 1990s as well when shaq put up >23+/10+ for 8 seasons that included years in the 1990s... (and 23 was only in his rookie year, it was 26+ besides that)

[juju151111]

Should kobe be a 90's player then too? he was 96 class...you dont' go by class.
Kome wasn't good in the 90s tho.SHaq was aveerging 25+11+ in the 90s.

[KB42PAH]

I dont get why people have this fascination that players from the past were better than today or something..

Steve Nash>>>>Pete Maravich
Joe Johnson>>>>Jerry West
Lebron James>>>>Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett>>>>Bill Russell

I could go on and on.

00>90>80>70>60>50

thats how it works people.

I'd say a good # of posters on this board could make the NBA in the 1950's. Complete joke of an era. Random Streetballers>old players

1952 NBA TEAM:

http://www.nba.com/media/kings/teamphoto51-52big.jpg
http://www.minnpost.com/client_files/alternate_images/3976/mp_main_wide_MplsLakers1950_452.jpg

Complete joke.

Imagine what Baron Davis, Wade, Lebron or Kobe would do in a pathetic league like that.

Baron Davis would put out: 39 ppg, 11 rpg, 13 apg, 5 spg
Lebron : 48 ppg, 20 rpg, 11 apg, 8 bpg
Kobe: 57 ppg, 8 apg, 13 rpg, 5 spg, 5 bpg

[Scott Pippen]

-Fact of the matter is today's players are taller (the swingmen, league hieght does not matter.) Joe Dumars was a fat midget 6''3 and supposedly best defender on Jordan..what a joke.

fat midget?



- This era has the best point guards

Magic, Isiah, KJ, Stockton:applause:


the best perimeter defenders

Detroit Rodman, young Bulls Jordan, Bulls Pippen:applause:



- It's funny how the 90's Bulls had:
- The best SG, SF, PF
Charles/Malone played for Bulls?:applause:


at least come up with sane opinion:applause:

[iggy>]

kobe stans are disgusting. why do they continue with these nonsensical ramblings.


jordan=6 finals mvps
kobe=0 finals mvps


enuff said.

[KB42PAH]

fat midget?

http://emergingfaith.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/p1_dumars_all1.jpg

[gotbacon23]

Magic, Isiah, KJ, Stockton:applause:


:applause:
you forgot gary payton, mark jackson, rod strickland, tim hardaway, terry porter, nick van exel, terrell brandon, mark price, derek harper, kenny anderson... jason kidd was an all-star in the 1990s and 2000s....

[Scott Pippen]

you forgot gary payton, mark jackson, rod strickland, tim hardaway, terry porter, nick van exel, terrell brandon, mark price, derek harper, kenny anderson... jason kidd was an all-star in the 1990s and 2000s....

of course but even more what I left is he said today's bigs >> 90s/80s bigs. I have to assume he is being sarcastic:applause:

[juju151111]

http://emergingfaith.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/p1_dumars_all1.jpg
How is he fat??He was just one person who guarded MJ.LOL U put a 6'7 guy on Mj he blows pass them with easy.Why does Bruce bowen say MJ the hardest to guard??I thought BB was 6'6.I confused here Mj can't get pass 6'6 guys right.Gerald wilkins was 6'6 also and he kills him.Dennis Rodman was 6'7 and he kills him.I must of imagine all that right.

[Da_Realist]

:applause:
you forgot gary payton, mark jackson, rod strickland, tim hardaway, terry porter, nick van exel, terrell brandon, mark price, derek harper, kenny anderson... jason kidd was an all-star in the 1990s and 2000s....

KB42 never even saw these players. The first point guard he ever saw was Derek Fisher. :D

[Mdog1]

The overall player now is better than then. The bottom teams have better players now than then. Some teams were good because they could afford to be and a lot of teams were not good because of the expansion.

LeBron is better than Bird for sure, nobody is better than MJ and nobody is better than Magic. Duncan is better than any power forward ever, and Shaq was in both eras.

[eliteballer]

There's no zone being played in those clips.

[DuMa]

why people even put an effort to respond to this fool is beyond me. its clear to me that he does not understand the game of basketball and its legendary players of history

[OneMoreSucka]

Steve Nash>>>>Pete Maravich
Joe Johnson>>>>Jerry West
Lebron James>>>>Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett>>>>Bill Russell

Wow did you actually just put garnett over russell and nash over pistol pete? (Other two have better arguments but are still completely wrong)

Seriously man, quit doing blow, the sniffles are getting worse.

[Nash-tastic]

KB42PAH gets owned right here

[Bodin]

- It's funny how the 90's Bulls had:
- The best SG, SF, PF
- The best shooter in Steve Kerr
- The best defenders in Pippen and Rodman
- The best Rebounder in Rodman
- 4 All-Stars were on that team: Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Grant.
- When Jordan retired, Pippen still lead the jordan-less Bulls to 55 wins.
- Pretty funny that people think MJ won all those rings by himself.


You talk a lot of fluff. Your method for comparing players is a joke and you're just picking random facts to suit your arguement. You're just another fan trying to hype your favorite player.

You forget the year before he retired they won a championship. Nobody cares what they did in the regular season without him. Jordan is so superior to Kobe when it matters it's not even funny.

It's really a shame you went to all that trouble.

[Showtime]

lol PAH will stop at nothing to hype up Kobe, even if it means degrading previous players and claiming Kobe's competition was the best and toughest ever.

If the newer is always better, as you claim, then why not admit that Wade and Lebron are better than Kobe?

[nnn123]

Why does Tmac 6''8, with length other nba players can only dream off, who can dunk from the free throw line, struggle to beat the Jazz with Yao ming (the games best center) and Shane Battier (the games best perimeter defender - who is also a deadly 3 point shooter?

lmao

The fact that Yao Ming is the game's best center indicates how overrated you are making this era. And the fact that so many perimeter players in this era succeed is a direct result of new rules put in place to free them up...which is also notably a direct result of MJ retiring and the NBA being scared of how players couldn't handle the old, physical NBA rules. So they had to change the rules, free up perimeter players, and try to create new, athletic "MJ's" to boost ratings.

[Loki]

Someone explain to me how, from 1999-2004 when Kobe was making his name and legend as "the next Jordan" and groupies were clinging to him mercilessly, Kobe couldn't perform at an all-time level under man-to-man rules against older, washed up versions of many of the same SG/SF's that Jordan faced (and destroyed) in the 90's? And that's with Shaq commanding double and triple teams, mind you. Yet despite this, Kobe's regular and postseason play was underwhelming when compared to Jordan's. No zone, older, past prime players who Jordan spanked in their primes, and a teammate commanding all the defensive attention. Yet he couldn't dominate.

Here is a list of most of the defenders Kobe faced in the playoffs from '00-'04 -- you know, when people such as yourself were busy calling him "Jordan this" and "Jordan that":


- Nick Anderson: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 64-point outburst in '93 and two consecutive 32-35 point halves in the '95 playoffs.

- Steve Smith: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 45 ppg playoff series in 1992 and numerous big games against his Hawks from '96-'98.

- A 35-37 year old past prime Scottie Pippen who Jordan used to torch regularly in practice in Pippen's better days.

- Stacey Augmon: Jordan tortured him in '93 and then put 51 on him for good measure in 2002...at age 39.

- Penny Hardaway: an older, hobbled, post-injury version of the player Jordan faced and beat 4-5 years prior.

- Shawn Marion: a rookie who Jordan dropped 41 points on at age 39 a few years later. Am I supposed to be impressed yet by all these quality defenders?

- Reggie Miller: an older, worse version of his 1998 self who Jordan beat in the ECF. Jordan routinely lit up Miller over the years.

- Jalen Rose: same dude Jordan abused in the '98 ECF at age 35 running on fumes.

- Doug Christie: Finally, a solid defender...and one that Jordan faced as well.

- 72 year old Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels: Porter was a (much) older version of one of the players Jordan abused in the late 80's/early 90's (including the '92 Finals) and Daniels is not exactly a defensive force -- he's certainly no John Starks, for instance. ;)

- Aaron McKie: Finally another solid defender. Too bad Jordan shot better against him from age 39-40 than Kobe did in the '01 Finals while averaging similar ppg (45% vs. 42%; 24.6 ppg vs. 22.6 ppg). And Jordan didn't have Shaq. Or good knees. And this was pre-zone, too, which means Kobe saw nothing but isolations all day (especially considering that Shaq drew 2-3 defenders every time down). Indicted by your own words.

- Ruben Patterson: Jordan hung 25/5/7/2 on 58% shooting on him at age 40.

- Bruce Bowen: great defender obviously.

- Kerry Kittles: an older, worse version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs at age 35 and one of the players who got burned for 45 points twice and 43 in a preseason game by Jordan at age 39-40.

- Richard Jefferson: Jordan's property for a great portion of the three 43+ point outings at age 39-40 discussed above.

- Kendall Gill: an ancient 34 year old version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs as well as a couple of 50+ point games back when Gill was actually a good player on Charlotte.

- Anthony Peeler: an ossified version of the player Jordan faced for many years. Jordan dropped 54 on him back when he was with the Lakers in '93, 41 pts on him at age 35 in 1998, and even 35 points on him at age 39 for good measure.

- Cuttino Mobley: Jordan had 35 on 57% shooting on him at age 40.

- Jim Jackson: Jordan put 37/5/7 on 52% shooting on him at age 39 in Miami as well as 36 pts a few times when Jordan was 33-35 years old.

- Latrell Sprewell: an older, slower version of the player Jordan routinely abused on Golden State and the Knicks, including a 26 and 39 point effort at age 39-40. Ho-hum.

- Tay Prince: good defender on a great defensive team. We saw how that series went, though, so I'm sure you won't mind if I skip right past this.


So please explain to me why Kobe couldn't dominate like Jordan did against many of the same players MJ faced who were much older at the time, and despite man-to-man defense and single coverage thanks to Shaq (unlike what MJ faced).

Do I hear any takers? :confusedshrug: Anyone? Yet we're supposed to believe he's better than Jordan? :oldlol:

[eliteballer]

Someone explain to me how, from 1999-2004 when Kobe was making his name and legend as "the next Jordan" and groupies were clinging to him mercilessly, Kobe couldn't perform at an all-time level under man-to-man rules against older, washed up versions of many of the same SG/SF's that Jordan faced (and destroyed) in the 90's? And that's with Shaq commanding double and triple teams, mind you. Yet despite this, Kobe's regular and postseason play was underwhelming when compared to Jordan's. No zone, older, past prime players who Jordan spanked in their primes, and a teammate commanding all the defensive attention. Yet he couldn't dominate.

Here is a list of most of the defenders Kobe faced in the playoffs from '00-'04 -- you know, when people such as yourself were busy calling him "Jordan this" and "Jordan that":


- Nick Anderson: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 64-point outburst in '93 and two consecutive 32-35 point halves in the '95 playoffs.

- Steve Smith: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 45 ppg playoff series in 1992 and numerous big games against his Hawks from '96-'98.

- A 35-37 year old past prime Scottie Pippen who Jordan used to torch regularly in practice in Pippen's better days.

- Stacey Augmon: Jordan tortured him in '93 and then put 51 on him for good measure in 2002...at age 39.

- Penny Hardaway: an older, hobbled, post-injury version of the player Jordan faced and beat 4-5 years prior.

- Shawn Marion: a rookie who Jordan dropped 41 points on at age 39 a few years later. Am I supposed to be impressed yet by all these quality defenders?

- Reggie Miller: an older, worse version of his 1998 self who Jordan beat in the ECF. Jordan routinely lit up Miller over the years.

- Jalen Rose: same dude Jordan abused in the '98 ECF at age 35 running on fumes.

- Doug Christie: Finally, a solid defender...and one that Jordan faced as well.

- 72 year old Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels: Porter was a (much) older version of one of the players Jordan abused in the late 80's/early 90's (including the '92 Finals) and Daniels is not exactly a defensive force -- he's certainly no John Starks, for instance. ;)

- Aaron McKie: Finally another solid defender. Too bad Jordan shot better against him from age 39-40 than Kobe did in the '01 Finals while averaging similar ppg (45% vs. 42%; 24.6 ppg vs. 22.6 ppg). And Jordan didn't have Shaq. Or good knees. And this was pre-zone, too, which means Kobe saw nothing but isolations all day (especially considering that Shaq drew 2-3 defenders every time down). Indicted by your own words.

- Ruben Patterson: Jordan hung 25/5/7/2 on 58% shooting on him at age 40.

- Bruce Bowen: great defender obviously.

- Kerry Kittles: an older, worse version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs at age 35 and one of the players who got burned for 45 points twice and 43 in a preseason game by Jordan at age 39-40.

- Richard Jefferson: Jordan's property for a great portion of the three 43+ point outings at age 39-40 discussed above.

- Kendall Gill: an ancient 34 year old version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs as well as a couple of 50+ point games back when Gill was actually a good player on Charlotte.

- Anthony Peeler: an ossified version of the player Jordan faced for many years. Jordan dropped 54 on him back when he was with the Lakers in '93, 41 pts on him at age 35 in 1998, and even 35 points on him at age 39 for good measure.

- Cuttino Mobley: Jordan had 35 on 57% shooting on him at age 40.

- Jim Jackson: Jordan put 37/5/7 on 52% shooting on him at age 39 in Miami as well as 36 pts a few times when Jordan was 33-35 years old.

- Latrell Sprewell: an older, slower version of the player Jordan routinely abused on Golden State and the Knicks, including a 26 and 39 point effort at age 39-40. Ho-hum.

- Tay Prince: good defender on a great defensive team. We saw how that series went, though, so I'm sure you won't mind if I skip right past this.


So please explain to me why Kobe couldn't dominate like Jordan did against many of the same players MJ faced who were much older at the time, and despite man-to-man defense and single coverage thanks to Shaq (unlike what MJ faced).

Do I hear any takers? :confusedshrug: Anyone? Yet we're supposed to believe he's better than Jordan? :oldlol:

:roll: Most of the guys were youngins when MJ was with the Bulls. Kobe was playing with SHAQ. Yet he still had one of the only 9 game 40 point streaks in history, 29 PPG at the age of 22, 56 points in 3 quarters at age 23 etc.

[eliteballer]

LOCO, how do you explain MJ on the Bulls struggling vs Doug Christie and Eddie Jones? Go ahead and pull up the stats:lol

[Manute for Ever!]

Someone explain to me how, from 1999-2004 when Kobe was making his name and legend as "the next Jordan" and groupies were clinging to him mercilessly, Kobe couldn't perform at an all-time level under man-to-man rules against older, washed up versions of many of the same SG/SF's that Jordan faced (and destroyed) in the 90's? And that's with Shaq commanding double and triple teams, mind you. Yet despite this, Kobe's regular and postseason play was underwhelming when compared to Jordan's. No zone, older, past prime players who Jordan spanked in their primes, and a teammate commanding all the defensive attention. Yet he couldn't dominate.

Here is a list of most of the defenders Kobe faced in the playoffs from '00-'04 -- you know, when people such as yourself were busy calling him "Jordan this" and "Jordan that":


- Nick Anderson: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 64-point outburst in '93 and two consecutive 32-35 point halves in the '95 playoffs.

- Steve Smith: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 45 ppg playoff series in 1992 and numerous big games against his Hawks from '96-'98.

- A 35-37 year old past prime Scottie Pippen who Jordan used to torch regularly in practice in Pippen's better days.

- Stacey Augmon: Jordan tortured him in '93 and then put 51 on him for good measure in 2002...at age 39.

- Penny Hardaway: an older, hobbled, post-injury version of the player Jordan faced and beat 4-5 years prior.

- Shawn Marion: a rookie who Jordan dropped 41 points on at age 39 a few years later. Am I supposed to be impressed yet by all these quality defenders?

- Reggie Miller: an older, worse version of his 1998 self who Jordan beat in the ECF. Jordan routinely lit up Miller over the years.

- Jalen Rose: same dude Jordan abused in the '98 ECF at age 35 running on fumes.

- Doug Christie: Finally, a solid defender...and one that Jordan faced as well.

- 72 year old Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels: Porter was a (much) older version of one of the players Jordan abused in the late 80's/early 90's (including the '92 Finals) and Daniels is not exactly a defensive force -- he's certainly no John Starks, for instance. ;)

- Aaron McKie: Finally another solid defender. Too bad Jordan shot better against him from age 39-40 than Kobe did in the '01 Finals while averaging similar ppg (45% vs. 42%; 24.6 ppg vs. 22.6 ppg). And Jordan didn't have Shaq. Or good knees. And this was pre-zone, too, which means Kobe saw nothing but isolations all day (especially considering that Shaq drew 2-3 defenders every time down). Indicted by your own words.

- Ruben Patterson: Jordan hung 25/5/7/2 on 58% shooting on him at age 40.

- Bruce Bowen: great defender obviously.

- Kerry Kittles: an older, worse version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs at age 35 and one of the players who got burned for 45 points twice and 43 in a preseason game by Jordan at age 39-40.

- Richard Jefferson: Jordan's property for a great portion of the three 43+ point outings at age 39-40 discussed above.

- Kendall Gill: an ancient 34 year old version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs as well as a couple of 50+ point games back when Gill was actually a good player on Charlotte.

- Anthony Peeler: an ossified version of the player Jordan faced for many years. Jordan dropped 54 on him back when he was with the Lakers in '93, 41 pts on him at age 35 in 1998, and even 35 points on him at age 39 for good measure.

- Cuttino Mobley: Jordan had 35 on 57% shooting on him at age 40.

- Jim Jackson: Jordan put 37/5/7 on 52% shooting on him at age 39 in Miami as well as 36 pts a few times when Jordan was 33-35 years old.

- Latrell Sprewell: an older, slower version of the player Jordan routinely abused on Golden State and the Knicks, including a 26 and 39 point effort at age 39-40. Ho-hum.

- Tay Prince: good defender on a great defensive team. We saw how that series went, though, so I'm sure you won't mind if I skip right past this.


So please explain to me why Kobe couldn't dominate like Jordan did against many of the same players MJ faced who were much older at the time, and despite man-to-man defense and single coverage thanks to Shaq (unlike what MJ faced).

Do I hear any takers? :confusedshrug: Anyone? Yet we're supposed to believe he's better than Jordan? :oldlol:

:eek: All I can say is Wow. Nice work, Loki :bowdown: :applause:

[Nash-tastic]

Someone explain to me how, from 1999-2004 when Kobe was making his name and legend as "the next Jordan" and groupies were clinging to him mercilessly, Kobe couldn't perform at an all-time level under man-to-man rules against older, washed up versions of many of the same SG/SF's that Jordan faced (and destroyed) in the 90's? And that's with Shaq commanding double and triple teams, mind you. Yet despite this, Kobe's regular and postseason play was underwhelming when compared to Jordan's. No zone, older, past prime players who Jordan spanked in their primes, and a teammate commanding all the defensive attention. Yet he couldn't dominate.

Here is a list of most of the defenders Kobe faced in the playoffs from '00-'04 -- you know, when people such as yourself were busy calling him "Jordan this" and "Jordan that":


- Nick Anderson: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 64-point outburst in '93 and two consecutive 32-35 point halves in the '95 playoffs.

- Steve Smith: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 45 ppg playoff series in 1992 and numerous big games against his Hawks from '96-'98.

- A 35-37 year old past prime Scottie Pippen who Jordan used to torch regularly in practice in Pippen's better days.

- Stacey Augmon: Jordan tortured him in '93 and then put 51 on him for good measure in 2002...at age 39.

- Penny Hardaway: an older, hobbled, post-injury version of the player Jordan faced and beat 4-5 years prior.

- Shawn Marion: a rookie who Jordan dropped 41 points on at age 39 a few years later. Am I supposed to be impressed yet by all these quality defenders?

- Reggie Miller: an older, worse version of his 1998 self who Jordan beat in the ECF. Jordan routinely lit up Miller over the years.

- Jalen Rose: same dude Jordan abused in the '98 ECF at age 35 running on fumes.

- Doug Christie: Finally, a solid defender...and one that Jordan faced as well.

- 72 year old Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels: Porter was a (much) older version of one of the players Jordan abused in the late 80's/early 90's (including the '92 Finals) and Daniels is not exactly a defensive force -- he's certainly no John Starks, for instance. ;)

- Aaron McKie: Finally another solid defender. Too bad Jordan shot better against him from age 39-40 than Kobe did in the '01 Finals while averaging similar ppg (45% vs. 42%; 24.6 ppg vs. 22.6 ppg). And Jordan didn't have Shaq. Or good knees. And this was pre-zone, too, which means Kobe saw nothing but isolations all day (especially considering that Shaq drew 2-3 defenders every time down). Indicted by your own words.

- Ruben Patterson: Jordan hung 25/5/7/2 on 58% shooting on him at age 40.

- Bruce Bowen: great defender obviously.

- Kerry Kittles: an older, worse version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs at age 35 and one of the players who got burned for 45 points twice and 43 in a preseason game by Jordan at age 39-40.

- Richard Jefferson: Jordan's property for a great portion of the three 43+ point outings at age 39-40 discussed above.

- Kendall Gill: an ancient 34 year old version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs as well as a couple of 50+ point games back when Gill was actually a good player on Charlotte.

- Anthony Peeler: an ossified version of the player Jordan faced for many years. Jordan dropped 54 on him back when he was with the Lakers in '93, 41 pts on him at age 35 in 1998, and even 35 points on him at age 39 for good measure.

- Cuttino Mobley: Jordan had 35 on 57% shooting on him at age 40.

- Jim Jackson: Jordan put 37/5/7 on 52% shooting on him at age 39 in Miami as well as 36 pts a few times when Jordan was 33-35 years old.

- Latrell Sprewell: an older, slower version of the player Jordan routinely abused on Golden State and the Knicks, including a 26 and 39 point effort at age 39-40. Ho-hum.

- Tay Prince: good defender on a great defensive team. We saw how that series went, though, so I'm sure you won't mind if I skip right past this.


So please explain to me why Kobe couldn't dominate like Jordan did against many of the same players MJ faced who were much older at the time, and despite man-to-man defense and single coverage thanks to Shaq (unlike what MJ faced).

Do I hear any takers? :confusedshrug: Anyone? Yet we're supposed to believe he's better than Jordan? :oldlol:
Amazing BBall knowledge

[Loki]

Don't worry, clowns like eliteballer will go into damage control mode -- oh, wait, he already has. :oldlol:

LOL @ "these players were young when Jordan faced them" -- my a$$. :oldlol: Guys like Gill, Anderson, Kittles, Sprewell, Smith etc. were tortured by MJ for years, and even in 2002/2003 in some cases. Yet Kobe couldn't dominate these same players under man-to-man rules (so he was playing "isolation basketball" as KB42CAHCAH likes to state) despite having a top 7 player all-time at their peak drawing double/triple teams.

Begin backpedaling.

[eliteballer]

How could we forget that the Bulls also had the "European Jordan"?:rolleyes:

[Loki]

I was just just watching a Jordan video on YouTube and the amount of iso plays he got from the mid-range area and in the post were incredible.:lol
*runs*

Jordan saw more defensive attention than any perimeter player in NBA history, especially from '87-'93.

Why couldn't Kobe dominate under man-to-man rules despite playing w/Shaq? He was great, but not all-time level spectacular from '99-'04.

*runs*

[eliteballer]

Why couldn't Kobe dominate under man-to-man rules despite playing w/Shaq? He was great, but not all-time level spectacular from '99-'04.

*runs*


Kobe was playing with SHAQ. Yet he still had one of the only 9 game 40 point streaks in history, 29 PPG at the age of 22, 56 points in 3 quarters at age 23 etc.


I guess doing that+3 rings isn't all time spectacular:rolleyes:

[Scott Pippen]

I guess doing that+3 rings isn't all time spectacular:rolleyes:
he is very spectacular. One of all time great legends but he is not better player than Jordan.:applause:

[Loki]

Jordan is overrated. Wilt/Kareem > Jordan

And zones were legalized in 2001

*runs*

Kobe is the most overrated player in history. Case in point.

Zone wasn't employed by teams in any widespread way until late 2004/early 2005, which is why we heard players like TMac *****ing after the 2003 season (not after 2000) about zone becoming legal next year.

*runs*

[ronnymac]

Put kobe against knicks of the early and mid ninties or the bad boys of the piston of the 80's without the handchecking rule and lets see how he fares. back then the defense was alot more physical. kobe seems to scream at the refs over every non-call, if he played back then, he would have lost his voice after one quarter against starks, rivers and other dirty knicks defenders.those guys make bowen look like a saint.

[ronnymac]

Jordan is the most overrated player in NBA history.
Prove that zones were not in widespread use until late 2004/early 2005. Tell me why teams would wait 3 years?

*sprints*
You're a retard. 7 time MVP. numerious defensive player of the year honors, countless all first teams, etc, etc..... 6 rings. 3 of them with luc longley as his starting center.

[ronnymac]

Yeah, I know who Jordan is, thanks. Idiot.:rolleyes:
And you still think he is the most overrated?. oh yeah JORDAN HAS 6 FINALS MVP's. unlike kobe, he did not choke on the biggest stage of all.:roll:

[Loki]

Jordan is the most overrated player in NBA history.
Prove that zones were not in widespread use until late 2004/early 2005. Tell me why teams would wait 3 years?

*sprints*

Because I'm pretty sure you're wrong about it becoming legal in 2001. Regardless, however, players like TMac and Kobe had standout years in 2003, and then during the 2003 offseason he was quoted as b!tching about zone becoming legal. Why would they wait? Ask TMac, because he was under the impression that the change happened during the 2003-2004 offseason.

And even beyond that, anyone who followed ball back then knows that it wasn't in use AT ALL in 2003, and only caught on in mid-late 2004 and in 2005 for real. Even now it's only used sparingly.

[eliteballer]

Because I'm pretty sure you're wrong about it becoming legal in 2001. Regardless, however, players like TMac and Kobe had standout years in 2003, and then during the 2003 offseason he was quoted as b!tching about zone becoming legal. Why would they wait? Ask TMac, because he was under the impression that the change happened during the 2003-2004 offseason.

And even beyond that, anyone who followed ball back then knows that it wasn't in use AT ALL in 2003, and only caught on in mid-late 2004 and in 2005 for real. Even now it's only used sparingly.


So players were complaining about the zone because it would make things harder? Shocking:eek:

[Loki]

So players were complaining about the zone because it would make things harder? Shocking:eek:

Yeah, they thought it would, but then we had every perimeter player and their mother have a career year in 2006, and the last 3+ seasons have been banner years for perimeter players. Objective evidence does not support the case that it's HARDER for perimeter players to score now than it was pre-2006.

[ronnymac]

Yeah, he becomes overrated when his rabid fans start saying **** like "M.J is GOAT and its not even close'' and when people call him the undisputed greatest. I would take Wilt/Kareem/Bird and maybe Magic over him personally if I were start a team.
And I find it amusing that a guy who has won 3 chips and been to 5 Finals can be a ''choker''. Aren't you a McGrady fan?:oldlol:
Dont bring tmac into this. i'm a rockets fan before yao or tracy. anyway, i aint going around saying tmac is better then the greatest player of alltime like you're doing with kobe. so shut the *** up. haha. trying to change the tpoinc. you look like a clown. jordan is the greatest player ever. face it. the man defined clutch in his final performances. his last shot as a bull was a championship game winner. THATS GREATNESS.

[eliteballer]

Yeah, they thought it would, but then we had every perimeter player and their mother have a career year in 2006, and the last 3+ seasons have been banner years for perimeter players. Objective evidence does not support the case that it's HARDER for perimeter players to score now than it was pre-2006.

In only 3 years of his Bulls career did MJ play against defense comparable to what Kobe has played his entire career, and in only 1 of those years did he crack 30 ppg.

[eliteballer]

Seriously...you want to talk about matchups. What would Kobe do against a one legged, 34 year old, 6-3 Jeff Hornacek? Give me a break.

[ronnymac]

Seriously...you want to talk about matchups. What would Kobe do against a one legged, 34 year old, 6-3 Jeff Hornacek? Give me a break.
Excuse me, but it was a very good defender in byron russell on jordan almost the entier time against the jazz.shandon anderson chipped in as well.

[JtotheIzzo]

Someone explain to me how, from 1999-2004 when Kobe was making his name and legend as "the next Jordan" and groupies were clinging to him mercilessly, Kobe couldn't perform at an all-time level under man-to-man rules against older, washed up versions of many of the same SG/SF's that Jordan faced (and destroyed) in the 90's? And that's with Shaq commanding double and triple teams, mind you. Yet despite this, Kobe's regular and postseason play was underwhelming when compared to Jordan's. No zone, older, past prime players who Jordan spanked in their primes, and a teammate commanding all the defensive attention. Yet he couldn't dominate.

Here is a list of most of the defenders Kobe faced in the playoffs from '00-'04 -- you know, when people such as yourself were busy calling him "Jordan this" and "Jordan that":


- Nick Anderson: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 64-point outburst in '93 and two consecutive 32-35 point halves in the '95 playoffs.

- Steve Smith: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 45 ppg playoff series in 1992 and numerous big games against his Hawks from '96-'98.

- A 35-37 year old past prime Scottie Pippen who Jordan used to torch regularly in practice in Pippen's better days.

- Stacey Augmon: Jordan tortured him in '93 and then put 51 on him for good measure in 2002...at age 39.

- Penny Hardaway: an older, hobbled, post-injury version of the player Jordan faced and beat 4-5 years prior.

- Shawn Marion: a rookie who Jordan dropped 41 points on at age 39 a few years later. Am I supposed to be impressed yet by all these quality defenders?

- Reggie Miller: an older, worse version of his 1998 self who Jordan beat in the ECF. Jordan routinely lit up Miller over the years.

- Jalen Rose: same dude Jordan abused in the '98 ECF at age 35 running on fumes.

- Doug Christie: Finally, a solid defender...and one that Jordan faced as well.

- 72 year old Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels: Porter was a (much) older version of one of the players Jordan abused in the late 80's/early 90's (including the '92 Finals) and Daniels is not exactly a defensive force -- he's certainly no John Starks, for instance. ;)

- Aaron McKie: Finally another solid defender. Too bad Jordan shot better against him from age 39-40 than Kobe did in the '01 Finals while averaging similar ppg (45% vs. 42%; 24.6 ppg vs. 22.6 ppg). And Jordan didn't have Shaq. Or good knees. And this was pre-zone, too, which means Kobe saw nothing but isolations all day (especially considering that Shaq drew 2-3 defenders every time down). Indicted by your own words.

- Ruben Patterson: Jordan hung 25/5/7/2 on 58% shooting on him at age 40.

- Bruce Bowen: great defender obviously.

- Kerry Kittles: an older, worse version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs at age 35 and one of the players who got burned for 45 points twice and 43 in a preseason game by Jordan at age 39-40.

- Richard Jefferson: Jordan's property for a great portion of the three 43+ point outings at age 39-40 discussed above.

- Kendall Gill: an ancient 34 year old version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs as well as a couple of 50+ point games back when Gill was actually a good player on Charlotte.

- Anthony Peeler: an ossified version of the player Jordan faced for many years. Jordan dropped 54 on him back when he was with the Lakers in '93, 41 pts on him at age 35 in 1998, and even 35 points on him at age 39 for good measure.

- Cuttino Mobley: Jordan had 35 on 57% shooting on him at age 40.

- Jim Jackson: Jordan put 37/5/7 on 52% shooting on him at age 39 in Miami as well as 36 pts a few times when Jordan was 33-35 years old.

- Latrell Sprewell: an older, slower version of the player Jordan routinely abused on Golden State and the Knicks, including a 26 and 39 point effort at age 39-40. Ho-hum.

- Tay Prince: good defender on a great defensive team. We saw how that series went, though, so I'm sure you won't mind if I skip right past this.


So please explain to me why Kobe couldn't dominate like Jordan did against many of the same players MJ faced who were much older at the time, and despite man-to-man defense and single coverage thanks to Shaq (unlike what MJ faced).

Do I hear any takers? :confusedshrug: Anyone? Yet we're supposed to believe he's better than Jordan? :oldlol:
:roll:

[Iverson/] practice? [Iverson]

you talkin about practice?

[Scott Pippen]

In only 3 years of his Bulls career did MJ play against defense comparable to what Kobe has played his entire career, and in only 1 of those years did he crack 30 ppg.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22063
:applause:

I told you. The final straw was 2004-05 Detroit brawl for the NBA. Stern became pantsy about image and aggressive play.

[JtotheIzzo]

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22063
:applause:

I told you. The final straw was 2004-05 Detroit brawl for the NBA. Stern became pantsy about image and aggressive play.

conspiracy?

really?

Is that your reason for more foul calls?

nice argument

[Scott Pippen]

conspiracy?

really?

Is that your reason for more foul calls?

nice argument
you misunderstand me:applause: There are many reasons and Detroit Brawl was the final straw for Stern. I see big difference in playing style between 2003 NBA & 2007 NBA, let alone the 90s. I did not say it is directly because of the brawl, but it (players fighting fans) pushed Stern to revamp image and remove thug reputation. It was a factor. One of many:applause:

Also we remember the brief 'no tolerance' technical foul rule recently in 2007

[Da_Realist]

I was just just watching a Jordan video on YouTube and the amount of iso plays he got from the mid-range area and in the post were incredible.:lol
*runs*

You're right. Jordan didn't face anything but iso's his whole career. Certainly not as much defensive attention as Kobe Bryant, who took the pressure off Shaq for 8 years, allowing him to look like the best player in the league. Just like Dwyane Wade did in 2006. But more, somehow.

Jordan can't compare to the highly efficient Bryant, who averages a whopping career fg 45%. Bryant maintains the ability to shoot in the 44%-47% under any situation -- before the legalization of the zone and after it, before the hand-check rules and after it, scoring more than 30 or less than 20, playing with a dominant inside presence or not. Jordan could never do that.

The only reason Jordan dominated the league was because it's so much easier to shoot over 50% when leading the league in scoring. It's much easier putting up numbers as the primary defensive focus of every team. He didn't have to be the "playmaker" that Bryant was burdened with. As Kobe said himself, he would have LOVED to have played during Jordan's era. Would have loved the opportunity to jack up shots like Jordan did. With the weakened competition, Kobe would have annihilated the league. Probably would have averaged over 40, shot well over 55%, averaged 6+ assists as the only real scoring option on his team, dominated the boards even while setting up the offense and being the best defensive player on the team.

It's too bad Jordan never faced teams that were as great defensively as the 2008 Celtics or 2004 Pistons. Hell, Jordan never faced championship calibur teams like the 2006 or 2007 Suns either. Win 6 titles??? He would have never even made the PLAYOFFS! Look at Jordan's playoff history here...it's pathetic.

1986 - lost to eventual champions
1987 - lost to nba finalists
1988 - lost to nba finalists
1989 - lost to eventual champions
1990 - lost to eventual champions
1991 - got lucky
1992 - got lucky
1993 - got lucky
1995 - lost to nba finalists
1996 - got lucky
1997 - got lucky
1998 - got lucky

Kobe's already the best that ever did it. And he's only 30. He's going to rip the league in half. He's already doing more than Jordan did when he turned 30. After being carried to the Olympic Gold Medal, Jordan only averaged 33 pts, 6 asts, 7 rebs, 3 stls, while shooting 50% and playing 40 minutes a game in 1993. And he won yet another overrated title and finals mvp (while averaging 41 ppg). Kobe's going to destroy those numbers. :rolleyes:

[Manute for Ever!]

Jordan is overrated. Wilt/Kareem > Jordan


Hmmmmmm, both Lakers....

[Horatio33]

Wow did you actually just put garnett over russell and nash over pistol pete? (Other two have better arguments but are still completely wrong)

Seriously man, quit doing blow, the sniffles are getting worse.

i always thought pistol pete was overrated. not a team player like nash. just cos you can dribble funky doesn't mean you are great. i would take pistol of the nba top 50 for nique or bernard.

i agree on the garnett not being better than russell.

so 243354 has never seen the nba prior to 2000.

[Manute for Ever!]

so 243354 has never seen the nba prior to 2000.

It would appear so

[Horatio33]

Jordan had the bad boy pistons draw up the jordan rules defence to stop him.

where are the kobe rules? 04 pistons don't need them, only need tayshaun prince plus kobe's own ego to stop kobe.

[Godfather]

Someone explain to me how, from 1999-2004 when Kobe was making his name and legend as "the next Jordan" and groupies were clinging to him mercilessly, Kobe couldn't perform at an all-time level under man-to-man rules against older, washed up versions of many of the same SG/SF's that Jordan faced (and destroyed) in the 90's? And that's with Shaq commanding double and triple teams, mind you. Yet despite this, Kobe's regular and postseason play was underwhelming when compared to Jordan's. No zone, older, past prime players who Jordan spanked in their primes, and a teammate commanding all the defensive attention. Yet he couldn't dominate.

Here is a list of most of the defenders Kobe faced in the playoffs from '00-'04 -- you know, when people such as yourself were busy calling him "Jordan this" and "Jordan that":


- Nick Anderson: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 64-point outburst in '93 and two consecutive 32-35 point halves in the '95 playoffs.

- Steve Smith: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 45 ppg playoff series in 1992 and numerous big games against his Hawks from '96-'98.

- A 35-37 year old past prime Scottie Pippen who Jordan used to torch regularly in practice in Pippen's better days.

- Stacey Augmon: Jordan tortured him in '93 and then put 51 on him for good measure in 2002...at age 39.

- Penny Hardaway: an older, hobbled, post-injury version of the player Jordan faced and beat 4-5 years prior.

- Shawn Marion: a rookie who Jordan dropped 41 points on at age 39 a few years later. Am I supposed to be impressed yet by all these quality defenders?

- Reggie Miller: an older, worse version of his 1998 self who Jordan beat in the ECF. Jordan routinely lit up Miller over the years.

- Jalen Rose: same dude Jordan abused in the '98 ECF at age 35 running on fumes.

- Doug Christie: Finally, a solid defender...and one that Jordan faced as well.

- 72 year old Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels: Porter was a (much) older version of one of the players Jordan abused in the late 80's/early 90's (including the '92 Finals) and Daniels is not exactly a defensive force -- he's certainly no John Starks, for instance. ;)

- Aaron McKie: Finally another solid defender. Too bad Jordan shot better against him from age 39-40 than Kobe did in the '01 Finals while averaging similar ppg (45% vs. 42%; 24.6 ppg vs. 22.6 ppg). And Jordan didn't have Shaq. Or good knees. And this was pre-zone, too, which means Kobe saw nothing but isolations all day (especially considering that Shaq drew 2-3 defenders every time down). Indicted by your own words.

- Ruben Patterson: Jordan hung 25/5/7/2 on 58% shooting on him at age 40.

- Bruce Bowen: great defender obviously.

- Kerry Kittles: an older, worse version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs at age 35 and one of the players who got burned for 45 points twice and 43 in a preseason game by Jordan at age 39-40.

- Richard Jefferson: Jordan's property for a great portion of the three 43+ point outings at age 39-40 discussed above.

- Kendall Gill: an ancient 34 year old version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs as well as a couple of 50+ point games back when Gill was actually a good player on Charlotte.

- Anthony Peeler: an ossified version of the player Jordan faced for many years. Jordan dropped 54 on him back when he was with the Lakers in '93, 41 pts on him at age 35 in 1998, and even 35 points on him at age 39 for good measure.

- Cuttino Mobley: Jordan had 35 on 57% shooting on him at age 40.

- Jim Jackson: Jordan put 37/5/7 on 52% shooting on him at age 39 in Miami as well as 36 pts a few times when Jordan was 33-35 years old.

- Latrell Sprewell: an older, slower version of the player Jordan routinely abused on Golden State and the Knicks, including a 26 and 39 point effort at age 39-40. Ho-hum.

- Tay Prince: good defender on a great defensive team. We saw how that series went, though, so I'm sure you won't mind if I skip right past this.


So please explain to me why Kobe couldn't dominate like Jordan did against many of the same players MJ faced who were much older at the time, and despite man-to-man defense and single coverage thanks to Shaq (unlike what MJ faced).

Do I hear any takers? :confusedshrug: Anyone? Yet we're supposed to believe he's better than Jordan? :oldlol:

:applause:

[Fatal9]

LOL at people clapping Loki's huge spin in that long post.

His argument follows something like this: "In one or two isolated games over his career, Jordan had a good game against the defenders that Kobe faced."

:oldlol: at using "he used to torch Pippen in practise"...you really thing Pippen was playing playoff defense on him? Not to mention there is no way you can prove this.

Typical of him to also use statistics that you can't determine the cause of. Hey, T-Mac and Kobe had career years in '03...it must be the zone! It can't just be that both were healthy and were entering situations where they would have to score a lot of points.

[Da_Realist]

Seriously...you want to talk about matchups. What would Kobe do against a one legged, 34 year old, 6-3 Jeff Hornacek? Give me a break.

Probably what he usually does in the Finals. :confusedshrug:

Or to make it fair, we can wait until Kobe turns 34/35 to see what his production will be like then.

[Loki]

Seriously...you want to talk about matchups. What would Kobe do against a one legged, 34 year old, 6-3 Jeff Hornacek? Give me a break.

You mean the guy that held Kobe to 40.8% shooting in the '98 playoffs?

Yeah, I want to talk about matchups. You still haven't told me how Kobe wasn't able to dominate older, past-prime versions of players who Jordan routinely abused. Under man-to-man rules, mind you.

Once you answer that, we can start talking about how other players (not Kobe) have no problem dominating under "zone defense" and why that is. Hint: it rhymes with "doverrated."

[eliteballer]

You mean the guy that held Kobe to 40.8% shooting in the '98 playoffs?

Yeah, I want to talk about matchups. You still haven't told me how Kobe wasn't able to dominate older, past-prime versions of players who Jordan routinely abused. Under man-to-man rules, mind you.

Once you answer that, we can start talking about how other players (not Kobe) have no problem dominating under "zone defense" and why that is. Hint: it rhymes with "doverrated."

:roll: Ya, first of all insinuating that a starter is what was guarding a 6th man, who was 19:lol Kobe dropped 20+(including a 30+ point game) on Jordan and Pippen in 98. Yet Hornacek stopped him?:wtf: Your desperation tactics are amusing. How is dropping 29 PPG at age 22 not dominating?:oldlol:

[Loki]

:roll: Ya, first of all insinuating that a starter is what was guarding a 6th man, who was 19:lol Kobe dropped 20+(including a 30+ point game) on Jordan and Pippen in 98. Yet Hornacek stopped him?:wtf: Your desperation tactics are amusing. How is dropping 29 PPG at age 22 not dominating?:oldlol:

Actually, Kobe scored 16 points in 3 quarters against Jordan/Harper in that "30+ point game", about 8 of them coming against MJ (2 contested buckets and some FT's). Then he scored 17 in the 4th against bench scrubs with MJ icing his knees on the bench in a blowout.

But hey, however you want to rationalize his sub-41% shooting in '98 playoffs against the same defender you're deriding... :oldlol:

Regarding "domination," I'm talking about being top 3 in any aggregate statistical metric or any measure of wins produced. Kobe could always score, but scoring in itself (disregarding all-around numbers and efficiency) doesn't mean that you're dominating your peers.

[eliteballer]

Ya, Kobe played 3 series in 98 as a 6th man yet it was Hornacek as a starter in 1 series that determined his FG%.:lol Lying will not get you anywhere. It won't change the truth Add on to that you have to make it seem as if what a 19 year old does determines anything. Kobe dominating MJ and Pippen along with the Jordan stopper Eddie Jones who held Bulls Jordan to like 35% shooting for his career:roll: :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_rG3DtBnM

[Loki]

Ya, Kobe played 3 series in 98 as a 6th man yet it was Hornacek as a starter in 1 series that determined his FG%.:lol Lying will not get you anywhere. It won't change the truth Add on to that you have to make it seem as if what a 19 year old does determines anything. Kobe dominating MJ and Pippen along with the Jordan stopper Eddie Jones who held Bulls Jordan to like 35% shooting for his career:roll: :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_rG3DtBnM

Good job linking to a game that's not the 33 point game you mentioned. LOL @ "dominating Jordan and Pippen." :oldlol: All of your other "arguments" are trash and anyone can see it. Toodles.

[Trax416]

Wait, wait. People are actually saying Kobe is better then JOrdan, and Jordan's era had weaker defense?


Whatttttttttttttttttttttt the ****KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKk

Todays game is a joke compared to back then. You can't even ****ing touch a perimeter player or clog up the key. Imagine what Jordan would do if all he had to be was touched to draw a foul?

holy ****. 40+PPG easy.

[CavaliersFTW]

I dont get why people have this fascination that players from the past were better than today or something..

Steve Nash>>>>Pete Maravich
Joe Johnson>>>>Jerry West
Lebron James>>>>Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett>>>>Bill Russell

I could go on and on.

00>90>80>70>60>50

thats how it works people.

I'd say a good # of posters on this board could make the NBA in the 1950's. Complete joke of an era. Random Streetballers>old players

1952 NBA TEAM:

http://www.nba.com/media/kings/teamphoto51-52big.jpg
http://www.minnpost.com/client_files/alternate_images/3976/mp_main_wide_MplsLakers1950_452.jpg

Complete joke.

Imagine what Baron Davis, Wade, Lebron or Kobe would do in a pathetic league like that.

Baron Davis would put out: 39 ppg, 11 rpg, 13 apg, 5 spg
Lebron : 48 ppg, 20 rpg, 11 apg, 8 bpg
Kobe: 57 ppg, 8 apg, 13 rpg, 5 spg, 5 bpg
:roll: :roll: :roll: what ever happened to this clown?

BTW here's his original video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDwJPY-Nneg

He had made it private since getting exposed but others already took it and re-uploaded it :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

:roll: :roll: :roll: what ever happened to this clown?

BTW here's his original video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDwJPY-Nneg

He had made it private since getting exposed but others already took it and re-uploaded it :oldlol:

You're worse than PAH. Pah was actually a pretty funny dude if you knew him on Yt n shit.