hakeem vs d. robinson

[RainierBeachPoet]

what is your analysis of d.rob vs the dream?

one of the recent posts here in ish was about "who owned whom".

one persons comment was that hakeem owned d. rob. i believe that it was primarily because of the highlights of a few dream shakes that hakeem put on david in the playoffs in 1995 (?)

in the head to head games i watched of the two, i never got the sense that hakeem dominated robinson. i considered it, overall, pretty close

hakeem played more games than david so his totals in all catagories are better but their per game averages are very close

david has two rings; hakeem also

hakeem was overall better defensively

let's talk...

[Carbine]

I'm assuming you're trying to make a case for DRob.

Here is a hint of advice:

Don't bring up the rings. Yes, they both have two... but the huge difference is Dream was the best player on those championship teams, David wasn't. Big difference.

[RainierBeachPoet]

I'm assuming you're trying to make a case for DRob.

Here is a hint of advice:

Don't bring up the rings. Yes, they both have two... but the huge difference is Dream was the best player on those championship teams, David wasn't. Big difference.

the rings are to hakeem's advantage true:cheers:

my question is of dominance-- i dont think that hakeem dominated david over the course of their careers. that was not the sense i got in the 90s

that 1995 playoff series was just a few games (although hakeem did take it to david in that series) and it dominates people's memory in that hakeem ALWAYS did that against david. not true

[El Kabong]

Hakeem kicked Robinson's butt when it mattered. In the playoffs. I always considered Hakeem a better player then Robinson anyways.

[gaydad]

Hakeem vs. Robinson is the utimate "who owns who" example :rollingeyes:

[Glove_20]

Hakeem is better than David Robinson no doubt...


Offensively and Defensively and Winning wise

[dejordan]

in 1995, the year the admiral won his mvp, hakeem clobbered him in the playoffs, HOWEVER, i agree with BeachPoet on this one. if you look at their accomplishments and stats up until 1994 (that's 9 years into hakeem's career and 6 years into david's) they are very similar. if you actually watched them back in the day, robinson was probably equally intimidating as a basket defender, better at running guys down on the break, and more athletic (in terms of hops and sprinting speed). hakeem actually peaked very late, but at his peak he was a phenominal player, definitely better than david. for the course of their careers though, they weren't so different. i never thought robinson had the need to win though. to me hakeem seemed like more of a leader by example. david made a better second banana.

[XxNeXuSxX]

D-Rob has a Quadrouple double. And also 5 triple doubles within the same month with 10+blocks, and nearly missing a second quadrouple double

[XxNeXuSxX]

*looks it up,* I bet Hakeem has one too, there is only 4 guys that have done it and I am now frustrated.

[dejordan]

*looks it up,* I bet Hakeem has one too, there is only 4 guys that have done it and I am now frustrated.
i think hakeem is one of those guys actually. alvin robertson did it with steals. don't know who the other was. people say wilt would done it multiple times if they'd kept blocks back in the day.

[Psileas]

Notice though that even till 1994, Hakeem still had Robinson beaten in playoff stats:

Robinson: 28 games, 23.5 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 50.5% FG
Olajuwon: 85 games, 27.0 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 53.1% FG

[Bourne]

Weird. Just today I watched a video of hakeem owning Drob in the last game of the western conference finals.

[Shepseskaf]

what is your analysis of d.rob vs the dream?

one of the recent posts here in ish was about "who owned whom".

one persons comment was that hakeem owned d. rob. i believe that it was primarily because of the highlights of a few dream shakes that hakeem put on david in the playoffs in 1995 (?)

in the head to head games i watched of the two, i never got the sense that hakeem dominated robinson. i considered it, overall, pretty close

hakeem played more games than david so his totals in all catagories are better but their per game averages are very close

david has two rings; hakeem also

hakeem was overall better defensively

let's talk...
This isn't about stats. Its about the absolute dominance of one elite player over another. I watched that series and have never seen a top player just embarrassed the way D. Rob was. It got to the point where I felt sorry for the guy... his head was down; at times he looked straight-up depressed.

I remember Avery Johnson in one of the huddles that was miked clearly stating that the team "couldn't count on David" (because he was getting owned) and had to find a way to win without him. It sounds incredible, but I clearly remember being shocked that Avery would come out and say that. He was obviously the team leader, not Robinson.

It wasn't just highlights. Hakeem put a historic beat-down on D. Rob.

[The Mamba]

Robinson: 28 games
Olajuwon: 85 games
Thank Ralph Sampson, and a better team for that. Hakeem played on some very good teams, from earlier in his career too. Robinson was stuck by himself until the mid to late 90's. And please, for the love of god... a prime David Robinson is better than a prime Tim Duncan. David Robinson's career numbers 21.1 ppg, 3 bpg, 11 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg. And that is after injuries deluted his skills, and playing time past the 1999 - 2000 season. If you compare their best numbers from the primes of their careers, Robinson is better than Duncan. I'd take a prime Admiral 10 times out of 10 over a prime Tim Duncan. As for Hakeem v.s. Robinson? Meh, tough ass question. Can't decide.

[Shepseskaf]

If you compare their best numbers from the primes of their careers, Robinson is better than Duncan. I'd take a prime Admiral 10 times out of 10 over a prime Tim Duncan.
Forget the numbers, Duncan has the winning intangibles that Robinson never had. He's a better leader, and more respected by his teammates. I don't take the Admiral over Duncan even one time out of ten.

Robinson was a freak of nature, no doubt, but he always played soft to me. Never really known as a tough, clutch player -- sort of like a slightly better version of KG in that regard.

Duncan would NEVER have allowed himself to be owned like Robinson was against Hakeem.

[rzp]

Duncan would NEVER have allowed himself to be owned like Robinson was against Hakeem.

Hakeem probly would kick TD ass too

[Carbine]

Duncan would NEVER have allowed himself to be owned like Robinson was against Hakeem.

Amare.

[DreamRuled]

, better at running guys down on the break,


not really disagreeing with the rest of your post, but did you see the game, or ever see the highlights of, Dream running down KJ on a break and swatting his dunk attempt into the crowd?

for the most part, the two players were close to equal statistically. But Hakeem always seemed to have the edge when they played.

Also, the post about the quad double, Dream has one also, and quite a few nearly quad doubles...I'll try to find the site that has the almosts listed

[Glove_20]

Amare.
Who won the series?


I think that mattered more to Duncan

[The Mamba]

Robinson doesn't have the 'winning intangibles"? If by not having 'winning intangibles' you mean not having fellow all-stars surrounding him, having a great coach, etc. Then yeah, Robinson never had all that. Not to mention he played in one of the most difficult, and competitive eras in professional basketball...

Robinson not a leader? WTF, this dude was ia Lieutenant the Navy. If anything, Robinson knows TRUE leadership. Wasn't a leader? haha He was the leader of the team when Duncan played with them. Duncan would probably even tell you this, straight up.

Admiral was just straight better. Softer? Growing up under a Navy family? Yeah right. Duncan was a beast. Like Dwight Howard's body, but even more athletic.

[The Mamba]

Amare.
Exactly...


Hakeem probly would kick TD ass too
Most definetely. Duncan isn't near quick enough, or athletic enough to guard "The Dream."

[XxNeXuSxX]

Forget the numbers, Duncan has the winning intangibles that Robinson never had. He's a better leader, and more respected by his teammates. I don't take the Admiral over Duncan even one time out of ten.





I can't picture a single player, or even a person that disrepected D-Rob. He was a complete role model on and off the court...

[Shepseskaf]

Robinson doesn't have the 'winning intangibles"? If by not having 'winning intangibles' you mean not having fellow all-stars surrounding him, having a great coach, etc. Then yeah, Robinson never had all that. Not to mention he played in one of the most difficult, and competitive eras in professional basketball...

Robinson not a leader? WTF, this dude was ia Lieutenant the Navy. If anything, Robinson knows TRUE leadership. Wasn't a leader? haha He was the leader of the team when Duncan played with them. Duncan would probably even tell you this, straight up.

Admiral was just straight better. Softer? Growing up under a Navy family? Yeah right. Duncan was a beast. Like Dwight Howard's body, but even more athletic.
D. Rob. was not as respected as a team leader as Duncan is. If you saw that clip of his own teammate (Avery) dissing him, you would realize this. I'm not saying that Robinson was trash, or that he wasn't respected as an upstanding citizen and a great role model, he just didn't have the gritty intangibles that Duncan has.

I guess we can agree to disagree, but I really can't explain it better than that. Robinson always reminded me of a big, incredibly coordinated guy who played ball because of his physical talents, not because he loved the game. With Duncan, I think the latter is true.

EDIT: I don't know if you watched that series against Hakeem and the Rockets, but at some points Robinson was incredibly, and visibly lacking in confidence. It got so bad at one point that Avery made a point about giving him a hug (seriously) to boost his spirits and to get his head up again. To have that happen to the reigning MVP was amazing. You can't tell me that Robinson lost a ton of respect after that series, even though many probably won't come out and say it.

[Shepseskaf]

I can't picture a single player, or even a person that disrepected D-Rob. He was a complete role model on and off the court...
Being respected as a person and a role model, which he certainly was, is different from being respected on the floor. D. Rob was obviously a great player, but did not have the same reputation for toughness in the clutch that Duncan has earned.

[rzp]

just curious...
who is the 99

[exit]

prime hakeem would screw anybody any day. yeah the dream was that good.

[Gotterdammerung]

I remember Dennis Rodman in one of his autobiographies say that prior to (one of) the games during the '95 west conference finals, D-Rob was shaking in his boots in the locker room, absolutely all shook and quivering all over. I'm sure this inspired confidence in the other players.

What was Dennis Rodman's excuses? That he couldn't guard Hakeem, due to the risk of foul trouble, or his board responsibilities kept leaving Robert Horry wide open for 3's? :hammerhead:

[Shepseskaf]

I remember Dennis Rodman in one of his autobiographies say that prior to (one of) the games during the '95 west conference finals, D-Rob was shaking in his boots in the locker room, absolutely all shook and quivering all over. I'm sure this inspired confidence in the other players.
I recall that there was some serious static between Rodman and Robinson because Rodman didn't respect him. I had forgotten about that quote, and it just reinforces my point -- D. Rob. is a great person, but was NOT a rock in the clutch, and didn't especially inspire confidence in teammates.

[Younggrease]

Who won the series?


I think that mattered more to Duncan

Duncan would get owned by Dream. First of all i could see dream shutting duncan down. Second of all there is nothing TD could do to stup Hakeem. They would have to double and triple him. But i think Hakeem could play Duncan 1 on 1.

[Zombles]

In his prime I don't think anyone could stop Hakeem, so it's not really disrespectful to Duncan.

I mean this guy torched a young Shaq, MVP Robinson, and Prime Ewing. If those three couldn't stop him I'm not sure anyone could of.

[Gotterdammerung]

I recall that there was some serious static between Rodman and Robinson because Rodman didn't respect him. I had forgotten about that quote, and it just reinforces my point -- D. Rob. is a great person, but was NOT a rock in the clutch, and didn't especially inspire confidence in teammates.

Righteous avatar, Shepseskaf. :cheers:

[RainierBeachPoet]

in 1995, the year the admiral won his mvp, hakeem clobbered him in the playoffs, HOWEVER, i agree with BeachPoet on this one. if you look at their accomplishments and stats up until 1994 (that's 9 years into hakeem's career and 6 years into david's) they are very similar. if you actually watched them back in the day, robinson was probably equally intimidating as a basket defender, better at running guys down on the break, and more athletic (in terms of hops and sprinting speed). hakeem actually peaked very late, but at his peak he was a phenominal player, definitely better than david. for the course of their careers though, they weren't so different. i never thought robinson had the need to win though. to me hakeem seemed like more of a leader by example. david made a better second banana.

that is an excellent observation derjdn about the late peak of hakeem. :applause: that doesnt happen to the vast majority of players and it makes a huge difference in comparing him to d.rob. especially since the highlight of his career were the championships in 94/95. it is where the rubber hits the road in terms of where respect is ultimately earned in the nba

also, they were different centers in the middle on d. whereas hakeem was like a bear guarding the cubs in the cave the way he patroled the middle; david used his athleticism to help teammates out, block shots and rebound.

[SsKSpurs21]

this is EXACTLY what rainer poet was talking about...

EVERYONE focuses on THAT ONE SERIES.

here is a little analogy:
robinson is to garnett : duncan is to hakeem

this meaning, robinson had a weak supporting cast and a weak coach. it was drob and sean elliot, and sean elliot wasnt even considered an allstar, while hakeem had ralph sampson. same way how duncan had drob.

iam not claiming that robinson was better than hakeem. thats not true...BUT what i am saying is THAT ONE series puts that perception that the entire career was that way, and that was simply not the case.

DRob has owned hakeem a few times but the reason why that one series is blown out of proportion is because DRob was the MVP and it was the playoffs.

Duncan has owned KG but KG has gotten his on duncan a few times...maybe not in the playoffs, but he has owned duncan a few times. same EXACT situation with robinson and hakeem.

the current duncan vs KG is the same exact battle between hakeem vs robinson.

[basketballer4]

The Dream.

[TheFourthCenter]

That series completely changed the two big men's career. At the time, Hakeem and D-Rob were considered to be equals. Living in Houston at the time, you wouldn't believe the amount of jostling between Roc and Spur fans. And when the 95 WCF hit, it was their version of "Ali versus Frasier."

From a personal standpoint, Hakeem has outplayed David. Please check out basketballreference.com and browse through some of their games from 92-95. You will see that David definitely had his times against Hakeem, (3/12/92, 3/12/94) but from that period, Hakeem some pretty serious games against him, too (12/17/92, 4/10/93, 4/25,93, 1/13/95). I saw that game on 1/13/95, it was eerily similar (actually better) to Hakeem's later dominance when the met. Dream played angry that day.

Anyway, I only listed the games where the other completely dominated the opposing player. From that period, Hakeem was better statistically, most of his stats were higher and to his credit, he held Robinson under 50%. But it can't always be about personal stats, because without a doubt, Robinson's team owned the Rockets. The Rockets had the most trouble with the Sonics, number two would have been the Spurs. Anyone telling you the Rocs had an easy time against the Spurs outside of the playoffs are completely full of...

So leading into the WCF, it was no longer about whether the Spurs owned the Rockets or whether Hakeem should have won the MVP, it was about two men staring down at each other for a legacy. If Hakeem won, he would have done to D-Rob, what Michael did to Drexler in 92. "You're a contemporary, but you're not on the same podium with me." If D-Rob won and went on to win the champsionship--sidenote: which the Spurs had a good chance because, of the four great centers, D-Rob's stats and team winning percentage was "better" against Shaq than Ewing and Hakeem--we would probably be talking about D-Rob as being part of the five great centers with Hakeem tossed to the Moses Malones and Patrick Ewings tier.

But as much as I want to stay impartial, it was the big dance. All the other stuff is nice to look at, but when it comes to the big dance and when everything is on the line, you got to win. Hakeem not only won but dominated. When you average ten and a half more points than your opponent, grab more rebounds than him (1.2), have more assists than him (2.3), block more shots than him (didn't list D-Rob's blocks but I remember it being in the mid 2 area, so at least 1.5) and have that many highlights of one man destroying another (which was later revisited when Shaq ate Mutumbo's lunch in the 01 Finals), it's pretty safe to say that history was accurately depicted what transpired between the two. Source:http://www.nba.com/rockets/history/Hakeem_Olajuwon_The_NBAs_Bes-91094-34.html

Before I finish this long post (sorry, I follow the ish but like to read more than post), while it is true that Ralph Sampson was definitely one of the pillars of the team, it was Akeem who gave the Lakers trouble, the one running from the weak side to block Kareem then running the fast break like a guard or chasing after Magic and hassling him on some plays for a steal or two. If anyone could find and post Hakeem's 86 playoff stats between Rocs and Lakers that would be nice.

[ClutchCityReturns]

If anyone could find and post Hakeem's 86 playoff stats between Rocs and Lakers that would be nice.

I'd love to see them too, but all I could find were his overall 1986 playoff stats.

[allball]

Well as someone who followed the careers of both of these guys from college to retirement I can say despite the statistical similarities, there is a huge gap in both the domination and intimidation levels as it was even between Duncan and Robinson.

Although Robinson would appear to be a superior player to Duncan if you looked at stats, when you look at what matters and doesnt matter, Duncan is clearly the better player. He also has proven he could win a championship as the best player of his team. Robinson did not get that done.

Back to Hakeem. The fact on Hakeem is he was one of the most intimidating defenders in the history of all levels and styles of basketball. From his U of H days until he retired, Hakeem intimidated not only the post but also the perimeter on occasion. The steals in the backcourt that resulted in breakaway dunks are things of legend. There were many of them in the 86 playoffs. He was a relentless beast who never ever gave up on a play. Robinson was a very good defender with solid fundamentals but guys didnt fear his matchup IMO because he didnt cover the range of the floor that Hakeem did and he didn't have Hakeem's super quick reactionary abilities (what?). They have similar blocks per game numbers but that is very deceiving in comparing these two. Anyway there is no comparison of their overall intimidation IMO.

Offensively Robinson certainly put up the big numbers and he was very skilled as a center but Hakeem had so many shots in his repertoire that he could go to in the clutch. The fear of the dream shake was on par with Kareem's
sky hook. Robinson had a varied arsenal as well but when he got to the most important games he did not have the ultimate answers that produce champions and he did have talent around him equal to what Hakeem had. The Spurs were the favorites to win it all in 1995 and they had the best record in the league. To say this was about one series and one year is to not undertand the significance of it. After that series the impact could be seen on Robinson for years to come. Although he won ships with Duncan, he was reduced to role player when the games were on the line and Duncan took all the big shots.

[RainierBeachPoet]

this is EXACTLY what rainer poet was talking about...

EVERYONE focuses on THAT ONE SERIES.

here is a little analogy:
robinson is to garnett : duncan is to hakeem

this meaning, robinson had a weak supporting cast and a weak coach. it was drob and sean elliot, and sean elliot wasnt even considered an allstar, while hakeem had ralph sampson. same way how duncan had drob.

iam not claiming that robinson was better than hakeem. thats not true...BUT what i am saying is THAT ONE series puts that perception that the entire career was that way, and that was simply not the case.

DRob has owned hakeem a few times but the reason why that one series is blown out of proportion is because DRob was the MVP and it was the playoffs.

Duncan has owned KG but KG has gotten his on duncan a few times...maybe not in the playoffs, but he has owned duncan a few times. same EXACT situation with robinson and hakeem.

the current duncan vs KG is the same exact battle between hakeem vs robinson.

sskspur21--- good parallel with duncan/garnett :cheers:

i am happy that you have given the real essence of the thread a different perspective

[RainierBeachPoet]

That series completely changed the two big men's career. At the time, Hakeem and D-Rob were considered to be equals. Living in Houston at the time, you wouldn't believe the amount of jostling between Roc and Spur fans. And when the 95 WCF hit, it was their version of "Ali versus Frasier."

From a personal standpoint, Hakeem has outplayed David. Please check out basketballreference.com and browse through some of their games from 92-95. You will see that David definitely had his times against Hakeem, (3/12/92, 3/12/94) but from that period, Hakeem some pretty serious games against him, too (12/17/92, 4/10/93, 4/25,93, 1/13/95). I saw that game on 1/13/95, it was eerily similar (actually better) to Hakeem's later dominance when the met. Dream played angry that day.

Anyway, I only listed the games where the other completely dominated the opposing player. From that period, Hakeem was better statistically, most of his stats were higher and to his credit, he held Robinson under 50%. But it can't always be about personal stats, because without a doubt, Robinson's team owned the Rockets. The Rockets had the most trouble with the Sonics, number two would have been the Spurs. Anyone telling you the Rocs had an easy time against the Spurs outside of the playoffs are completely full of...

So leading into the WCF, it was no longer about whether the Spurs owned the Rockets or whether Hakeem should have won the MVP, it was about two men staring down at each other for a legacy. If Hakeem won, he would have done to D-Rob, what Michael did to Drexler in 92. "You're a contemporary, but you're not on the same podium with me." If D-Rob won and went on to win the champsionship--sidenote: which the Spurs had a good chance because, of the four great centers, D-Rob's stats and team winning percentage was "better" against Shaq than Ewing and Hakeem--we would probably be talking about D-Rob as being part of the five great centers with Hakeem tossed to the Moses Malones and Patrick Ewings tier.

But as much as I want to stay impartial, it was the big dance. All the other stuff is nice to look at, but when it comes to the big dance and when everything is on the line, you got to win. Hakeem not only won but dominated. When you average ten and a half more points than your opponent, grab more rebounds than him (1.2), have more assists than him (2.3), block more shots than him (didn't list D-Rob's blocks but I remember it being in the mid 2 area, so at least 1.5) and have that many highlights of one man destroying another (which was later revisited when Shaq ate Mutumbo's lunch in the 01 Finals), it's pretty safe to say that history was accurately depicted what transpired between the two. Source:http://www.nba.com/rockets/history/Hakeem_Olajuwon_The_NBAs_Bes-91094-34.html

Before I finish this long post (sorry, I follow the ish but like to read more than post), while it is true that Ralph Sampson was definitely one of the pillars of the team, it was Akeem who gave the Lakers trouble, the one running from the weak side to block Kareem then running the fast break like a guard or chasing after Magic and hassling him on some plays for a steal or two. If anyone could find and post Hakeem's 86 playoff stats between Rocs and Lakers that would be nice.

4thctr---- thanks for doing some groundwork on the issue. i notice it is your first post and i hope it is not your last. the ish needs enlightenment often. :cheers:

i dont disagree with you in that the playoff series between them was a major turning point. that is what make hakeem so awesome in that he peaked at a later age than most and did very much outplay d. rob and the rockets win was the frosting

in other places here at ish, i would take hakeem over any other center on the defensive end; i am still pondering the centers on offense

my reason for starting this thread was to engage discussion as to how much the perception from that series has taken away from d.rob's total career in many people's opinion. it might be true with some of the younger guys here who never saw them for the course of their careers


i really liked both of them for different reasons. they both gave me years of nba enjoyment


i dont think this is revisionist history as much as selective emphasis.

a war parallel would be looking at one battle, even a battle as a turning point in a war, as defining the whole war.

there are many other factors that go into how things really are

i am glad that your post gives insight into the "battle" of that specific playoff series as a turning point in comparing the two great centers

[*LAKERS_3_PETE*]

Hakeem although listed as a 7'0'er was really only 6'10 1/2 but he was alot more physical and played as if he was alot taller than the Admiral who was definitely a tall timber@7'1. Hakeem had that killer combination that disguised him as a finess player from time to time with the footworks he had under the basket that will just about get him out of any defensive pressure applied on him. Hakeem was one of those players that the defenders couldn't lock up, and if you get physical w/him he'll make you pay for it with his ability to take you off w/a dribble drive cause he was a quick center w/a 1st step that will have the defender look like a deer caught in headlights. Hakeem wasn't all about the foot moves he was also a physical speciman that will back you down under the basket w/his physical strength and the meanstreak he had in him. Hakeem the dream olajuwon was also a defensive presence with his ability to block shots and getting every imaginable rebound that came his way, Hakeem imo was one of the top 5 centers to ever play this game ENOUGH SAID!:applause:

[XxNeXuSxX]

*]Hakeem although listed as a 7'0'er was really only 6'10 1/2 but he was alot more physical and played as if he was alot taller than the Admiral who was definitely a tall timber@7'1.[/B] Hakeem had that killer combination that disguised him as a finess player from time to time with the footworks he had under the basket that will just about get him out of any defensive pressure applied on him. Hakeem was one of those players that the defenders couldn't lock up, and if you get physical w/him he'll make you pay for it with his ability to take you off w/a dribble drive cause he was a quick center w/a 1st step that will have the defender look like a deer caught in headlights. Hakeem wasn't all about the foot moves he was also a physical speciman that will back you down under the basket w/his physical strength and the meanstreak he had in him. Hakeem the dream olajuwon was also a defensive presence with his ability to block shots and getting every imaginable rebound that came his way, Hakeem imo was one of the top 5 centers to ever play this game ENOUGH SAID!:applause:


Where did you get this "fact"? :banghead:

[Younggrease]

hakeem is def not 7 feet. He looked about 6"10.

[XxNeXuSxX]

http://www.bucks1.com/media/rockets/yao_hakeem030421.jpg

Next to Yao...

[Younggrease]

http://www.bucks1.com/media/rockets/yao_hakeem030421.jpg

Next to Yao...

Thats proves it.... Go back to old games and look at him compared to D-Rob and Ewing.

[exit]

to win when it matters most glorifies one's legacy. nobody praises charles barkley the same way one does to jordan/bird/magic cause charles did not win a ring. barkley is one of the greatest players of all time in my book. one of the greatest PF ever play the game. sadfully he could not beat jordan in the finals. he was great but jordan beat him. and that's how sir charles's legacy is written. same as drob, he was amazing in many games but hakeem kicked his ass when it mattered most. that just simply devalued drob's legacy.

though, charles was beaten and drob was owned...

[allball]

http://www.bucks1.com/media/rockets/yao_hakeem030421.jpg

Next to Yao...

I have actually had the pleasure of standing right next to Hakeem on at least 3 occasions. He actually looks like he's about 6'9".

[XxNeXuSxX]

Allright fine, he seems like 6'10/6'9 but why is he listed at 7'0?

[Psileas]

Next to Yao...

Yao is standing behind Hakeem, and that distorts the comparison.

I have to agree that Hakeem was actually 6-10. Apart from him measuring as tall as Bill Russell in a TV appearance in the mid-90's, there was an old picture of him and Kareem being photographed together, and Kareem had about 4 inches on him (definately not only 2). I think I have this pic somewhere, if I find it, I'll post it.

[allball]

to win when it matters most glorifies one's legacy. nobody praises charles barkley the same way one does to jordan/bird/magic cause charles did not win a ring. barkley is one of the greatest players of all time in my book. one of the greatest PF ever play the game. sadfully he could not beat jordan in the finals. he was great but jordan beat him. and that's how sir charles's legacy is written. same as drob, he was amazing in many games but hakeem kicked his ass when it mattered most. that just simply devalued drob's legacy.

though, charles was beaten and drob was owned...

i would change glorifies to enhcances.

[allball]

to win when it matters most glorifies one's legacy. nobody praises charles barkley the same way one does to jordan/bird/magic cause charles did not win a ring. barkley is one of the greatest players of all time in my book. one of the greatest PF ever play the game. sadfully he could not beat jordan in the finals. he was great but jordan beat him. and that's how sir charles's legacy is written. same as drob, he was amazing in many games but hakeem kicked his ass when it mattered most. that just simply devalued drob's legacy.

though, charles was beaten and drob was owned...

i would change glorifies to enhances.

[TheFourthCenter]

4thctr---- thanks for doing some groundwork on the issue. i notice it is your first post and i hope it is not your last. the ish needs enlightenment often. :cheers:

i dont disagree with you in that the playoff series between them was a major turning point. that is what make hakeem so awesome in that he peaked at a later age than most and did very much outplay d. rob and the rockets win was the frosting

in other places here at ish, i would take hakeem over any other center on the defensive end; i am still pondering the centers on offense

my reason for starting this thread was to engage discussion as to how much the perception from that series has taken away from d.rob's total career in many people's opinion. it might be true with some of the younger guys here who never saw them for the course of their careers


i really liked both of them for different reasons. they both gave me years of nba enjoyment


i dont think this is revisionist history as much as selective emphasis.

a war parallel would be looking at one battle, even a battle as a turning point in a war, as defining the whole war.

there are many other factors that go into how things really are

i am glad that your post gives insight into the "battle" of that specific playoff series as a turning point in comparing the two great centers

No, thank you for the topic. Mix tapes and highlights aside, people tend to forget that the Spurs dominated the Rockets and that David was quite the monster. I remember thinking that Hakeem was the only 6'10 above PF or C with that type of speed, quickness, and ability. Then comes David, and I knew from the moment he matched up with Dream that we were in for a treat. David was a monster athlete just like Hakeem. Too bad the back went out.

But society likes the Cliff Notes of things. It's a hassle to point certain aspects when it's easier to say, "Who's got the ring, and who destroyed the other when it counted?" Maybe had David developed a post game, maybe had the Sonics went past the first round, things would have been different, but reality is reality, and Hakeem ended up on top. He clearly destroyed Ewing (read: Ewing shot under or almost under 40%) and neutralized or slightly outperformed a young Shaq that was thought to be unstoppable.

In the end, David will remembered for being soft, elbowed by Malone, spanked by Hakeem, carried by Duncan, but anyone who followed the game would take him any day in today's league. And yes, he outplayed Ewing in case anyone wants to make a point.

Also, Dream was 6'10 and half. I'll try to find the pic, but there's a pic of him staying next to Horry and he's just a fraction taller.

[exit]

i would change glorifies to enhances.

it glorifies one's legacy meaning it makes one's legacy bigger than it actually is. "enhances" isn't what i meant to say. :rollingeyes:

[SsKSpurs21]

In the end, David will remembered for being soft, elbowed by Malone, spanked by Hakeem, carried by Duncan, but anyone who followed the game would take him any day in today's league. And yes, he outplayed Ewing in case anyone wants to make a point.

excellent point. i think those who have ACTUALLY watched the two play know how great they both were. robinsons label of soft is put on him because he really had no heart in the game. his LIFE wasnt basketball, it was family and faith.

i remember something robinson said during the 92 olympics...he said if he had jordans desire and passion to win he could have been one of the greatest, but basketball wasnt a top priority for him.

[allball]

it glorifies one's legacy meaning it makes one's legacy bigger than it actually is. "enhances" isn't what i meant to say. :rollingeyes:

a legacy cant be bigger than it actually is. can it? I meant "I" would say enhances as opposed to glorifies.

[RainierBeachPoet]

No, thank you for the topic. Mix tapes and highlights aside, people tend to forget that the Spurs dominated the Rockets and that David was quite the monster. I remember thinking that Hakeem was the only 6'10 above PF or C with that type of speed, quickness, and ability. Then comes David, and I knew from the moment he matched up with Dream that we were in for a treat. David was a monster athlete just like Hakeem. Too bad the back went out.

But society likes the Cliff Notes of things. It's a hassle to point certain aspects when it's easier to say, "Who's got the ring, and who destroyed the other when it counted?" Maybe had David developed a post game, maybe had the Sonics went past the first round, things would have been different, but reality is reality, and Hakeem ended up on top. He clearly destroyed Ewing (read: Ewing shot under or almost under 40%) and neutralized or slightly outperformed a young Shaq that was thought to be unstoppable.

In the end, David will remembered for being soft, elbowed by Malone, spanked by Hakeem, carried by Duncan, but anyone who followed the game would take him any day in today's league. And yes, he outplayed Ewing in case anyone wants to make a point.


the cliff notes version is what is available to those who did not watch nba back in the day and have to rely on snippets from youtube

i hope you post more often 4thctr!

[warriors23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

[saKf]

Olajuwon won championships when Robinson was still playing his best ball. Robinson won championships when Tim Duncan came to town to create the best high-low post combination we've seen in a long time.

[exit]

a legacy cant be bigger than it actually is. can it? I meant "I" would say enhances as opposed to glorifies.

it can.

[eliteballer]

Hakeem got screwed in terms of winning in the early part of his career, because Sampson got injured and several Rockets players flamed out due to drug problems. In his prime an argument can be made Hakeem was on the Magic/Bird/Jordan level. He was THAT good and dominant.

[RapsFan]

In the late 80's and then into the 90's, that one series changed so much, for better or worse. Hakeen didn't actually have a great reputation or legacy going for him, for a number of years. It all changed when he had one of the best few years in the history of the modern game. David Robinson was huge throughout his career. So it depends on how you look at it. I guess I am saying, only since those few years was Hakeen ever considered near the top of the greatest of all time list for C's and all players. I don't know who I think is the better NBA player, b/c you have to look at a heck of a lot more then one finals series.

In reality, most C's of these two guys calibar can score at will one on one. Even marginal players in the NBA demand double teams. So, some of it depends on the team strategy of SA during that series. MJ could kill any one player who guarded him. That doesn't make the defender a bad player. Tim Duncan can get schooled by KG on one play...and TD can score at will on KG on the other. These guys are that good. You have to double. Then it comes down to teammates. I guess all I am saying is that nobody would have stopped either of these guys one on one when they are on. Hakeem was on during that series. Both had great careers.

[RainierBeachPoet]

In the late 80's and then into the 90's, that one series changed so much, for better or worse. Hakeen didn't actually have a great reputation or legacy going for him, for a number of years. It all changed when he had one of the best few years in the history of the modern game. David Robinson was huge throughout his career. So it depends on how you look at it. I guess I am saying, only since those few years was Hakeen ever considered near the top of the greatest of all time list for C's and all players. I don't know who I think is the better NBA player, b/c you have to look at a heck of a lot more then one finals series.

In reality, most C's of these two guys calibar can score at will one on one. Even marginal players in the NBA demand double teams. So, some of it depends on the team strategy of SA during that series. MJ could kill any one player who guarded him. That doesn't make the defender a bad player. Tim Duncan can get schooled by KG on one play...and TD can score at will on KG on the other. These guys are that good. You have to double. Then it comes down to teammates. I guess all I am saying is that nobody would have stopped either of these guys one on one when they are on. Hakeem was on during that series. Both had great careers.

good point about the double teams rapsfan!

all the more reason to give props to both of them-- hakeem and d.rob

[KWALI]

D-Rob vs Dream is like Clyde vs MJ

It's closer than you remember becuz the play-offs mean more than the reg season in your memories but really does that matter?

in terms of nostalgia...Legend......your gut feeling....?

no

[RainierBeachPoet]

any of you new guys care to comment?

[SsKSpurs21]

For me its a similar debate of Duncan VS Garnett.

Garnett and DRob were both athletic freaks. Duncan and Hakeem had the intangables that make them great.

Alot of people base DRob and hakeems ENTIRE career on that ONE playoff series. sure it was big and DRob seemed to get owned, but Duncan also OWNED KG in 1999 and some people still think that KG is better than Duncan.

I wish there were more highlight mixes of David Robinson because he was an amazing talent. he peaked alot faster than hakeem. Hakeem didnt hit his stride until he was 30-32.

[XxNeXuSxX]

I see, I commented in September... for me I'd take prime D-Rob as he is my favorite player OAT. I know it's clear Hakeem had the better career, but the reality gap between the two is minimal.

[SsKSpurs21]

I see, I commented in September... for me I'd take prime D-Rob as he is my favorite player OAT. I know it's clear Hakeem had the better career, but the reality gap between the two is minimal.

David Robinson is the main reason why I became a Spurs fan. I once saw David steal a pass, run down court, dunk the ball, then run back and block a shot on the other end. he was an athletic beast, the same way KG is...but he didnt have the leadership qualities or the intangibles that Duncan or Hakeem had.

If you look at both of their bios on NBA.com/history, you will see how great both of them were.

If you can make a claim that KG is better than Duncan, then you can make the EXACT same claim that DRob is better than Hakeem. the similarities are so close its scary!

alot of people just hear that Drob got owned by Hakeem in a playoff series and automatically jump to the conclusion that Hakeem owned Drob every single time they played, which is obviously NOT the case, and that is a huge injustice to David.

[Wuxia]

David Robinson was my childhood hero, but I will say this: Hakeem had a better career.

[DreamRockets]

not even close my friend, we are talking about 36/12/4/5/55% vs 23/11/3/2/48% here, we all saw the embarassment on national tv, and i was there to see it LIVE so no highlights on youtube here.

i won't even bother with their regular season games, (in which hakeem still dominated) because they don'0t mean jack, true legends are remembered because of their playoffs performances. hakeem is remembered for outplaying ewing, embarassing robinson and running in circles around a young shaq, robinson is remembered for riding duncan's coat-tails to 2 championships, lol.

if you wanna rank shaq above hakeem that's ok, i don't agree and never will but at least shaquille is a "true" nba champion, please leave robinson (90's version of KG) out of this discussion.

[DreamRockets]

triple p

[DreamRockets]

triple post, garbage browser.

[HoustonRockets87]

Olajuwon Vs Robinson Head-To-Head:
Career Regular Season: Hakeem- 21.9 PPG, 11.3 RPG, Robinson- 19.6 PPG, 11.2 RPG
Post season: Hakeem- 35.3 PPG, 12.5 RPG, Robinson- 23.2 PPG, 9.3 RPG

[DreamRockets]

Amare.

the spurs won didnt they ? duncan owned amare on the boards and blocked more shots, robinson was owned at everything, points, rebounds, blocks, assists, steals, fg%, and lost the series against a 47 wins team, the whole package.

[DreamRockets]

Admiral was just straight better.

don't be stupid dude, there isnt a single case you can make for robinson being better than hakeem, only the other way around.

[DreamRockets]

this is EXACTLY what rainer poet was talking about...

EVERYONE focuses on THAT ONE SERIES.

here is a little analogy:
robinson is to garnett : duncan is to hakeem

this meaning, robinson had a weak supporting cast and a weak coach. it was drob and sean elliot, and sean elliot wasnt even considered an allstar, while hakeem had ralph sampson. same way how duncan had drob.

iam not claiming that robinson was better than hakeem. thats not true...BUT what i am saying is THAT ONE series puts that perception that the entire career was that way, and that was simply not the case.

DRob has owned hakeem a few times but the reason why that one series is blown out of proportion is because DRob was the MVP and it was the playoffs.

Duncan has owned KG but KG has gotten his on duncan a few times...maybe not in the playoffs, but he has owned duncan a few times. same EXACT situation with robinson and hakeem.

the current duncan vs KG is the same exact battle between hakeem vs robinson.


yeah idiot, because hakeem had MJ at SG, stockton at PG and barkley at PF :hammerhead: the likes of horry, casseell, kenny smith, herrera, mad max, etc were nothing but role players, the equivalents of avery, elliot, rodman and del negro in san antonio, hakeem didn't have a better "team" than robinson so stop making excuses, dude flat out whored the so called "mvp".

[HoustonRockets87]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

[Xsatyr]

yeah idiot, because hakeem had MJ at SG, stockton at PG and barkley at PF :hammerhead: hakeem didn't have a better "team" than robinson so stop making excuses, dude flat out whored the so called "mvp".

I thought Spurs had the best record or at least a better record than the Rockets that year, didn't they?

[HoustonRockets87]

I thought Spurs had the best record or at least a better record than the Rockets that year, didn't they?
that really doesn't matter if you don't win the championship.

[DreamRockets]

not even close, spurs won 62 games and the rockets struggled to win 47 games because contrary to what casual fans think the drexler for thorpe trade was a bad one which disrupted out chemistry, we should have maintained our championship team from '94 intact and we could of had home court advantage in most series.

[Shep]

its very close..but david robinson over hakeem olajuwon.

granted, hakeem led his team to the finals in 3 years..but what about all those years he led his team to a .500 record ('87, '88, '89, '90, '92) with a supporting cast similar to the one david had when he was winning 55-60 games every year?

[Xsatyr]

that really doesn't matter if you don't win the championship.

Obviously, I was pointing out how can you say Hakeem had a better team.

[DreamRockets]

its very close..but david robinson over hakeem olajuwon.

granted, hakeem led his team to the finals in 3 years..but what about all those years he led his team to a .500 record ('87, '88, '89, '90, '92) with a supporting cast similar to the one david had when he was winning 55-60 games every year?

uh, championship > pretty regular season records, robinson's "dream" season (ironic, isn't it ?) ended up in being publically humilliated and embarassed by the true best center in the league, and by a team that won 15 less games than the spurs.

congrats to david, he was the dirk/webber of the 90's winning a lot of games in the regular season and then failing miserably in the playoffs.

[Shep]

uh, championship > pretty regular season records,
which is why robinson stepped aside for duncan in '99

robinson's "dream" season (ironic, isn't it ?) ended up in being publically humilliated and embarassed by the true best center in the league, and by a team that won 15 less games than the spurs.
uh..that rocket team also defeated the 60 win jazz and the 59 win suns..that team was destined to win the championship

congrats to david, he was the dirk/webber of the 90's winning a lot of games in the regular season and then failing miserably in the playoffs.
heh..i'd take winning 60 games and losing deep in the playoffs over scraping into the playoffs as an 8th seed and getting eliminated in the first round or not even making the playoffs ('90) :oldlol:

[DreamRockets]

which is why robinson stepped aside for duncan in '99


uh..that rocket team also defeated the 60 win jazz and the 59 win suns..that team was destined to win the championship

and that was because of how good hakeem was, not because of the bunch of overrated role players around him.


heh..i'd take winning 60 games and losing deep in the playoffs over scraping into the playoffs as an 8th seed and getting eliminated in the first round or not even making the playoffs ('90) :oldlol:

lmao, you are gonna bring up one season ? the spurs didnt win that season so this has no relevance, the rocckets won in 94 and 95, so david had a better season than hakeem in 95 because he won mvp and more games despite of hakeem exposing him as the overrated softie he was in the playoffs ? :hammerhead: we are discussing greatness here, hakeem LEAD his team to consecutive championships and embarassed robinson in front of his own fans, we aren't discussing how well robinson rode duncan's coat-tails.

[Shep]

and that was because of how good hakeem was
you missed the point (hardly surprising). what i was saying is that san antonio wasn't the only 59+ win team houston beat so you can't use the excuse that "wow..they just got beaten by a 47 win team..they must suck", because so did utah and phoenix

not because of the bunch of overrated role players around him.

:roll: clyde drexler a role player? say no more

lmao, you are gonna bring up one season ?
lmao, just like you are?

the spurs didnt win that season so this has no relevance
why not?

the rocckets won in 94 and 95, so david had a better season than hakeem in 95 because he won mvp and more games despite of hakeem exposing him as the overrated softie he was in the playoffs
olajuwon outplayed robinson in one series. if thats your only argument over why youd chose olajuson's career over robinson's you need to get out of this thread

we are discussing greatness here
:bowdown:

hakeem LEAD his team to consecutive championships
yeh..and without that, he wouldn't be near robinson..but because of it he is very close :D

and embarassed robinson in front of his own fans
didn't get embarassed..simply got outplayed..nothing more

we aren't discussing how well robinson rode duncan's coat-tails.
where'd you get the impression that i was? :lol:

[Twoston Rockets]

I remember when the 95 Western Conference finals opened, it was dubbed the I-10 texas shootout. Robinson was presented the MVP trophy in San Antonio and if you watched the opening game, you could tell Olajuwon was pissed as sh*t. He took it as an insult because he knew he shouldve been MVP that year. San Antonio did have the best record in the league, and MVP honors usually goto the best player on the best team. Olajuwon just had too many moves in his arsenal, Robinson even said " I think I guarded him pretty well." Hakeem simply outplayed the Admiral.

[Shep]

He took it as an insult because he knew he shouldve been MVP that year.
:oldlol: david robinson rightfully won the mvp that year. there was nobody near him, infact it was the easiest choice of mvp since 1986 (larry over magic). olajuwon wasn't even second..i'd give it to shaquille o'neal, karl malone, and john stockton before him. granted hakeem had slightly better stats, but he missed 10 games, robinson missed one. hakeem had the better supporting player (drexler over rodman), yet won 15 games less. there's no argument

[SsKSpurs21]

yeah idiot, because hakeem had MJ at SG, stockton at PG and barkley at PF :hammerhead: the likes of horry, casseell, kenny smith, herrera, mad max, etc were nothing but role players, the equivalents of avery, elliot, rodman and del negro in san antonio, hakeem didn't have a better "team" than robinson so stop making excuses, dude flat out whored the so called "mvp".

no need to get all excited. its just a message board. Horry was an up and coming youngster. cassell was a leader and kenny smith was also no slouch. you are also forgeting Mario Elie as well as clyde drexler (i think he was on the team at that time)...even if he wasnt, the rockets had a solid young nucleus...but i dont want to argue about the teams...lets focus on the Drob vs Hakeem.

go to basketball-reference.com and look at compare their season totals. Robinson peaked earlier than Hakeem. After Robinsons 1995 season, his numbers began to decline while Hakeems started to raise.

The analogy I made still holds true with KG/DRob Duncan/Hakeem. I am NOT here denying the fact that Hakeem was the better player, what i saying is that the gap was closer than you are making it out to be.

People on this board claim that KG is better than Duncan...all i was saying is that if you believe this then you must also believe that DRob was better than Hakeem, because Hakeem and DRob are THIS GENERATIONS Duncan and KG.

KG got his in the regular season, but when it came to the playoffs Duncan owned...same with how DRob got his in the regular season but Hakeem got his when it really mattered and that was the playoffs.

[billybadass]

david robinson got punked. i only wish to see kobe get owned like that. just to see how his fans would react

[RainierBeachPoet]

no need to get all excited. its just a message board. Horry was an up and coming youngster. cassell was a leader and kenny smith was also no slouch. you are also forgeting Mario Elie as well as clyde drexler (i think he was on the team at that time)...even if he wasnt, the rockets had a solid young nucleus...but i dont want to argue about the teams...lets focus on the Drob vs Hakeem.

go to basketball-reference.com and look at compare their season totals. Robinson peaked earlier than Hakeem. After Robinsons 1995 season, his numbers began to decline while Hakeems started to raise.



agreed-- and this is the main reason i originally started this thread back in sept

i had followed both of them for their whole careers; people put too much emphasis on that one series and forget how simply awesome drob was in his own right

[dejordan]

not even close, spurs won 62 games and the rockets struggled to win 47 games because contrary to what casual fans think the drexler for thorpe trade was a bad one which disrupted out chemistry, we should have maintained our championship team from '94 intact and we could of had home court advantage in most series.
not sure you can blame that one on clyde. i'm sure the chemistry thing might have lost you a game here or there, but the rockets weren't on schedule to have home court that year. the team was on a 52 win pace (i just checked) but they had a very tough schedule over their last 36 games (the games w/ clyde) including multiple matchups with the jazz, sonics, spurs, and suns as well as individual matchups against the magic and knicks. that's pretty rough. other than a streaking chicago club and the pacers you guys had to deal with all the tough opponents the league had to throw at you that season stacked up late in the game. that team had a ton of grit though and really pulled it together by the playoffs. nice job by rudy t getting clyde involved by that point.

[DreamRockets]

myabe your right, but i never liked drexler and thorpe was one of my favorite players so i was kinda pissed at the trade and had to blame clyde for something.

[dejordan]

myabe your right, but i never liked drexler and thorpe was one of my favorite players so i was kinda pissed at the trade and had to blame clyde for something.
:D thorpe is one of the underrated players of our era, just like you said in the players that will be forgotten thread. he's another player from that 84 draft who should have gone higher.

[RainierBeachPoet]

:D thorpe is one of the underrated players of our era, just like you said in the players that will be forgotten thread. he's another player from that 84 draft who should have gone higher.

agreed

i am trying to remember any thorpe-drob or thorpe-hakeem showdowns though....

[guybrush806]

Thank Ralph Sampson, and a better team for that. Hakeem played on some very good teams, from earlier in his career too. Robinson was stuck by himself until the mid to late 90's. .


First...Hakeem had one good team early. That was 1986. That was going to be a great team. Sampson got hurt the next year and was traded. Lou Lloyd, Mitchell Wiggens, and John Lucas were all thrown out of the league for using cocaine. (rumor has it you can thank Magic Johnson for that)
Hakeem's great team was destroyed. He didn't have a really good chance of winning again until 1993 when the Rockets lost to Seattle in overtime game 7.

Hakeem was always a different player in the playoffs, he stepped his game up like few others. In 1986 he averaged 30 points a game against the Lakers in the Western Conference finals and 27 against the Celtics. One of the best back courts of all time.

I will say Hakeem and David in the regular season are close to equals with Hakeem having a slight edge. Robinson was a very good player, top 10 centers all time.

In the Playoffs, Hakeem elevated his game to an amazing level. Even early in his career.
Robinson never took his game to the next level and in Sports, It's the Playoffs that matter the most. It's why you play the regular season.

Robinson lost (was destroyed) in a Legacy game. A game between two Giants at the height of their playing ability. Robinson lost huge and with it he lost his good name. He will never be seen as a top 5 center.

Playoffs mean everything. No one ever talks about regular season games of 10 years ago. I mean who cares...it's the regular season. It only matters that day and then it's over...move to the next game.

The playoffs though....they are forever. In every sport. We still here about the great victories like the Mets over the Red Sox in 1986, Jordan's shot of Craig Elho and we will always remember Dream owning D-rob. Playoffs are the stuff of legends!

So yeah...not even a contest. Hakeem all the way.

[SsKSpurs21]

where did you dig this thread out from? :confusedshrug:

anyways, Hakeem vs David Robinson is like Tim Duncan vs Kevin Garnett.

one was great in the regular season, the other was great when it matters most. the similarities are frightening.

[xxxSuperStar]

where did you dig this thread out from? :confusedshrug:

anyways, Hakeem vs David Robinson is like Tim Duncan vs Kevin Garnett.

one was great in the regular season, the other was great when it matters most. the similarities are frightening.

Olajuwon was better than Robinson in BOTH the regular season AND playoffs.

[G-train]

Having watched all these centers, I fail to see how

D-Rob
Hakeem
Shaq
Ewing

Can be distinguished as better than one another.
All were all time great centers IMO, and hard to judge as to who was better.

[xxxSuperStar]

Having watched all these centers, I fail to see how

D-Rob
Hakeem
Shaq
Ewing

Can be distinguished as better than one another.
All were all time great centers IMO, and hard to judge as to who was better.

Tier 1

Shaq
Hakeem

Tier 2

Robinson
Ewing

Tier one leads their team to multiple championships as main man, tier 2 doesn't. And a greatest of greatest center SHOULD be able to do it. AND both Ewing and Robinson had good talent surrounding them.

[G-train]

I dont buy it. Different teams, different circumstances... I dont buy that Shaq/Hakeem are a tier above Robinson/Ewing.

[TMac&Luther]

^ :oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

[G-train]

Whatever dude.

All four are awesome, unstoppable scorers in different ways.
All four were great defenders (shaq not as much, but he was a great shot blocker/defensive rebounder).

All four are all time greats.

I doubt you have even seen them all in their prime, or 95% of ISH for that matter.

[steve franchise]

It's obvious that Hakeem was better than D.Robinson.
Robinson didnt win a championship until Duncan came. Hakeem didnt win a championship until Cassell, Horry came?
In the season and playoffs Hakeem was better, he was a real hustler, that's why he's the number one shot blocker of alltime.
I agree with the fact that Hakeem brought his game up in the playoffs, that's why David Robinson got owned, of course a little jealousy in the MVP award helped too.

[G-train]

In 95 Hakeem averaged 35.3 ppg in the series but Robinson, himself, almost average 30 ppg. The even more prominent fact was that a team led by Hakeem beat a team led by Robinson. THis is a poor way to rate the players.
Robinson was a incredible player and six games in 1995 is not a fair basis of comparison.

Robinson 21.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 2.5 apg, .518% FG (14 Seasons)
Olajuwon 21.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, .512% FG (18 Seasons)

His career efficiency is slightly higher than Hakeems at 29.0 versus 28.0

People say that...
1. Hakeem has two rings as a featured player, Robinson has two only as a complementary player
2. Hakeem has a better post game then Robinson
3. Hakeem outplayed Robinson head-to-head in their one playoff match up.

1. is true, but Duncan has more rings than Hakeem, so is he better? maybe, maybe not. Its not a fair way to judge.
2. is false. It is a dead heat pretty much. There is no analytical way to prove one is better than the other.
3. One series cannot be an over ruling judgement

[steve franchise]

In 95 Hakeem averaged 35.3 ppg in the series but Robinson, himself, almost average 30 ppg. The even more prominent fact was that a team led by Hakeem beat a team led by Robinson. THis is a poor way to rate the players.
Robinson was a incredible player and six games in 1995 is not a fair basis of comparison.

Robinson 21.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 2.5 apg, .518% FG (14 Seasons)
Olajuwon 21.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, .512% FG (18 Seasons)

His career efficiency is slightly higher than Hakeems at 29.0 versus 28.0

People say that...
1. Hakeem has two rings as a featured player, Robinson has two only as a complementary player
2. Hakeem has a better post game then Robinson
3. Hakeem outplayed Robinson head-to-head in their one playoff match up.

1. is true, but Duncan has more rings than Hakeem, so is he better? maybe, maybe not. Its not a fair way to judge.
2. is false. It is a dead heat pretty much. There is no analytical way to prove one is better than the other.
3. One series cannot be an over ruling judgement
HELLO? Are you aware of what Duncan had around him when he won those championships? Robinson, Elliot, Parker, Ginobili, S.Jackson.
Put Hakeem in the team where Duncan was he'll make the Spurs a dynasty like Bostons'.:confusedshrug:

Dont tell me that Hakeem had quality players surrounding him like Robinson had, when he won the titles.

[ThaRegul8r]

Regular season career averages are similar, accolades are similar, but when you go to the next level—the playoffs, Hakeem stepped up and got it done while Robinson did it, and worse yet, Hakeem got it done against Robinson when Robinson was MVP, his team had the league's best record and homecourt advantage. Hakeem showed he could lead teams to titles, Robinson couldn't, and didn't win until Duncan got there and he played a complementary role while Duncan was The Man. I don't understand the confusion. When regular season performance is similar, playoff performance and what you were able to do in the clutch in leading your team is the tiebreaker. That's make or break time, and what Hakeem did was the stuff of legends.

EDIT:

In 95 Hakeem averaged 35.3 ppg in the series but Robinson, himself, almost average 30 ppg.

Huh? Since when does 23.8 per game become "almost averaging 30?" Here's the rundown in case you forgot:

Hakeem: 35.3 points, 12.5 rebounds, 5 assists, 4.17 blocked shots and 1.33 steals per game, 56 percent shooting from the floor

Robinson: 23.8 points, 11.3 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 2.17 blocked shots and 1.5 steals per game, 44.9 percent shooting from the floor


The even more prominent fact was that a team led by Hakeem beat a team led by Robinson. THis is a poor way to rate the players.

They faced each other in the playoffs head up, and they were each the leader of their respective teams. Robinson was the Most Valuable Player, had the league's best record and home court. Hakeem had a legendary playoff series and left the league MVP befuddled. Did you watch that series? None other than Wilt freaking Chamberlain said, “I don’t know if a center has ever had a better offensive series, myself included.”
How is this a poor way to rate them when they went head-to-head on the biggest stage—both teams healthy, no excuses—and one completely embarrassed the other? Legacies are established in the playoffs.


Robinson was a incredible player and six games in 1995 is not a fair basis of comparison.

He and Hakeem had the exact same opportunity, and Hakeem got it done while Robinson didn't. You play the game to win. And Hakeem had already won the year before, winning as close to single-handedly as anyone had since Rick Barry in '75.

[TMac&Luther]

Whatever dude.

All four are awesome, unstoppable scorers in different ways.
All four were great defenders (shaq not as much, but he was a great shot blocker/defensive rebounder).

All four are all time greats.

I doubt you have even seen them all in their prime, or 95% of ISH for that matter.

Think again buddy. I grew up watching Hakeem dominate. I watched him dominate Robinson, Ewing, and even give Shaq fits. I saw the absolute look of frustration on the faces of Robinson and Ewing, because THEY HAD NO ANSWER FOR HIM and they were mentally broken, especially Robinson

Robinson and Ewing were not on Hakeem's level, Hakeem was arguably the most complete center of alltime. He had unparalled defense, crazy footwork, a array of offensive moves that shook people right out of their shoes, and insane court vision and handles for a big man.

Shaq also played against all the great players of that era and Shaq has said many of times that Hakeem was the greatest big man he ever played against.....Shaq has got mad respect for Hakeem.

[CAYO]

Hakeem

[Classic]

G-Train,

You have some pretty shytty arguments. Hakeem, one on one, was by far the toughest big man matchup of any of those. Ask Shaq. Shaq was/is a bulldozer of sorts so it is different from the agility and finesse side of things. Hakeem beat Robinson, just watch his low post moves in that utube video. I had the pleasure of watching the entire series live and Robinson was shyt on. Hakeem beat Ewing. Hakeem beat Shaq. And he did it when it mattered most. All Hakeem had around him was role players in the first championship. Hakeem had Drexler in '95 but it wasn't the Drexler of '87-'92.

People are judged on their post season accomplishments. McGrady is a two time scoring champ and and a hellava good player. But what is he remembered for? What is Garnett remembered for? What is Barkely remembered for? What is Robinson and Ewing remembered for? They are all remembered for not being able to individually carry their team to greatness in the playoffs. That is what truley matters most. It's not the only thing, but it is what matters most. So...

Hakeem>>Robinson

[TMac&Luther]

This is what Olajuwon did to Ewing and the Knicks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjs1sdRpSV8

and this is what Olajuwon did to Drob and the Spurs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

How anybody can say those players were on the same level as The Dream is beyond me.

[SsKSpurs21]

People are judged on their post season accomplishments. McGrady is a two time scoring champ and and a hellava good player. But what is he remembered for? What is Garnett remembered for? What is Barkely remembered for? What is Robinson and Ewing remembered for? They are all remembered for not being able to individually carry their team to greatness in the playoffs. That is what truley matters most. It's not the only thing, but it is what matters most. So...



if this is the case, then why are people still arguing that KG > Duncan or Malone > Duncan. those same people who are arguing that Hakeem > Robinson because of post season success cant have it both ways.

I am not here to argue that David > Hakeem because thats not true...but I will argue that the gap that many are claiming to be HUGE is not that big. People here are making it seem like we are arguing Rasho Nesterovic vs Shaq.

David has had some great games against hakeem. just like how KG has had some great games against duncan. yet everyone says the gap between KG and Duncan is narrow but the gap between David and hakeem is huge? how so?

[Agent_Zero]

Hakeem Olajuwon, my all time favorite player, takes the cake here.











Not that I'm being biased or anything like that.

[ForceOfNature]

Hakeem was the better center in my opinion. As far as scoring goes, Robinson was better BUT overall, Hakeem was better (rebounding, blocking shots, skills, etc.). I think Olajuwon is actually one of the most underrated stars in NBA history. He really deserves more respect.

[Classic]

if this is the case, then why are people still arguing that KG > Duncan or Malone > Duncan. those same people who are arguing that Hakeem > Robinson because of post season success cant have it both ways.

I am not here to argue that David > Hakeem because thats not true...but I will argue that the gap that many are claiming to be HUGE is not that big. People here are making it seem like we are arguing Rasho Nesterovic vs Shaq.

David has had some great games against hakeem. just like how KG has had some great games against duncan. yet everyone says the gap between KG and Duncan is narrow but the gap between David and hakeem is huge? how so?

I don't think the gap is huge. But people only seem to remember player's post season success and use that as the measuring mark. I'm a big tmac fan but if you aren't its easy to say well, dude aint been out of the first round so he sucks. I think the difference between great and legendary is post season success and the ability to carry a team of lessers on your back. David Robinson was a great center, one of the greatest of all time. Hakeem was a legendary center probably top 4. That little difference, as seen in their head to head, is what people see and judge an extrodinary athelete by. Just the way it is.

[SsKSpurs21]

I don't think the gap is huge. But people only seem to remember player's post season success and use that as the measuring mark. I'm a big tmac fan but if you aren't its easy to say well, dude aint been out of the first round so he sucks. I think the difference between great and legendary is post season success and the ability to carry a team of lessers on your back. David Robinson was a great center, one of the greatest of all time. Hakeem was a legendary center probably top 4. That little difference, as seen in their head to head, is what people see and judge an extrodinary athelete by. Just the way it is.

fair enough :cheers:

[KWALI]

People say that...
1. Hakeem has two rings as a featured player, Robinson has two only as a complementary player
2. Hakeem has a better post game then Robinson
3. Hakeem outplayed Robinson head-to-head in their one playoff match up.

1. is true, but Duncan has more rings than Hakeem, so is he better? maybe, maybe not. Its not a fair way to judge.
2. is false. It is a dead heat pretty much. There is no analytical way to prove one is better than the other.
3. One series cannot be an over ruling judgement

You are smoking with number two......Of course you can analytically show that Dream was a better post player...you can go through post skills Dream possessed that D-Rob did not..you can talk about back to the basket scoring and about ability to score from the post in the clutch...

Dream vs D-Rob is truly like the TD vs KG argument except Dream has interior skills on D-Rob while TD doesn't have more post skills than KG he is more effective becuz he is simply stronger and has a better center of gravity....

[RainierBeachPoet]

i like how this thread got recycled!

how many of the recent guys read through its development from the beginning?

[Wo1fshadow]

Being rockets-oriented, gotta say Hakeem.:rockon:

[Lebron23]

Give me Hakeem Olajuwon. He elevated his game in the playoffs and Finals. 2 finals mvp is better than none.

[Round Mound]

Do the stats when both where prime and healthy that is from 1989 to 1996 (ages 22 to 32: players prime and peak). Both where done after that. Hakeem will probably have better stats both in the regulear season and play-offs. Both where the best defensive centers (Admiral a better rim protector and Hakeem a better 1 on 1 defender. Both where great floor defenders for steals as C´s) but offensively Hakeem was much better. Hakeem was also a better passer and rebounder.

[Richesly]

From what I know, D Rob was probably the overall better player. However, Hakeem had Drob beat in some respects, such as a back to the basket game(although, drob had hakeem beat in the overall post).

[1987_Lakers]

The first few pages in this thread were very insightful, crazy how much this site has changed in terms of quality posts.

[TheGoatest]

Hakeem's 1994 and 1995 runs are the most impressive in history when it comes to individual matchups he had to face.

Beat Ewing, Robinson and Shaq in 7 game series in those two playoff runs. That's crazy. And all those three guys had better supporting casts than Hakeem.

[Phoenix]

From what I know, D Rob was probably the overall better player. However, Hakeem had Drob beat in some respects, such as a back to the basket game(although, drob had hakeem beat in the overall post).

No he didn't. How can you say Hakeem had a better back to the basket game, then follow it with Robinson was overall better in the post? In what way? Hakeem was simply a more potent post player, had a larger variety of post scoring skills which he could go to the clutch that Robinson didnt really have. The rest of their abilities, rebounding, paint presence/defensive ability, all of those things are mostly on par but as a weapon in the post that could withstand the higher pressure of playoff defense and competition Hakeem was clearly better.

Before 95( or I guess 94 since Hakeem won his first title then) there wasn't this gap between the two that the 95 playoff matchup has created in hindsight. Robinson's teams IIRC won more games and there wasnt some huge stat difference. They each had great games against each other. In fact around 92 alot of the talk was that Robinson was going to become the league's dominant player eventually with the idea that MJ was approaching 30 and expected, like other guards back then, to decline after that point and be vulnerable to another player taking the baton. This was before Shaqs arrival and Hakeems run combined with Robinsons playoff flameouts.

[TheGoatest]

From what I know, D Rob was probably the overall better player. However, Hakeem had Drob beat in some respects, such as a back to the basket game(although, drob had hakeem beat in the overall post).

No, he wasn't.
Even if you completely erase that Hakeem vs Robinson series from history, Hakeem was the better player.
Along with Wilt Chamberlain, David Robinson has the biggest drop from his regular season ppg to playoff ppg of any all-time great player. Whereas Hakeem is the polar opposite and has the biggest ppg increase in playoffs.

[Whoah10115]

Do the stats when both where prime and healthy that is from 1989 to 1996 (ages 22 to 32: players prime and peak). Both where done after that. Hakeem will probably have better stats both in the regulear season and play-offs. Both where the best defensive centers (Admiral a better rim protector and Hakeem a better 1 on 1 defender. Both where great floor defenders for steals as C´s) but offensively Hakeem was much better. Hakeem was also a better passer and rebounder.

I could argue rebounding was a wash, but I don't know that I agree with Hakeem was a better passer.

[FKAri]

It should be very close. Of course everyone thinks back to that one series and over time that single memory has overwritten years of memories of watching these two play. History be like that.

[Gohan]

I’ll take David Robinson only when he wears Wally moccasins