If George Mikan and Jerry West played in today's game, how good would they be?

[Stiff #1]

Would they...

A) Be better (be mentioned with Jordan/Wilt/Bird/Shaq)
B) Be the same (superstars)
C) Suck (rot on the bench for the OKC Thunder)

Your thoughts.

[QuestFor17]

I think West was skilled enough to hang, but Mikan would get abused. He would simply not be athletic enough to hang, IMO.

[Stiff #1]

I think West was skilled enough to hang, but Mikan would get abused. He would simply not be athletic enough to hang, IMO.I agree with Mikan. I also think West would be as good as Luke Ridnour in his prime (and only if surrounded by great teammates, similar to what I like to call the "Rajon Rondo" effect). But if he was asked to lead a team on his own, I think he'd be really, really bad.

[Showtime]

There's some ambiguity here. Do you mean if they were literally time warped here in their primes, or if they developed in today's climate with the advancement of the game? If you mean the former, then I think Mikan wouldn't be much better than a Jeff Foster, but West, I think, would be a good player. If you mean the latter scenario, then both have a good shot at becoming all star caliber players.

[Stiff #1]

GTFO of here.

[Showtime]

GTFO of here.
You don't think if Mikan was developed in today's NBA climate that he couldn't be as good as Kevin Love or Tyler Hansbrough coming in? Brad freaking Miller was an all star. I don't think it's a stretch to say Mikan could have a good shot at being one too.

[gts]

is this BULLS new screen name? lol

[juju151111]

You don't think if Mikan was developed in today's NBA climate that he couldn't be as good as Kevin Love or Tyler Hansbrough coming in? Brad freaking Miller was an all star. I don't think it's a stretch to say Mikan could have a good shot at being one too.
Hell no.

[Valliant13]

West was 6'5 SG, with solid athletcism, and huge wingspan...add in his phenominal shooting ability, tenacious D, clutchness, and court awareness. I'm sure he'd excel in todays game.

[Stiff #1]

You don't think if Mikan was developed in today's NBA climate that he couldn't be as good as Kevin Love or Tyler Hansbrough coming in? Brad freaking Miller was an all star. I don't think it's a stretch to say Mikan could have a good shot at being one too.
People please, just ignore this guy.

[Stiff #1]

West was 6'5 SG, with solid athletcism, and huge wingspan...add in his phenominal shooting ability, tenacious D, clutchness, and court awareness. I'm sure he'd excel in todays game.
West was 6'1" in shoes with a slow first step, terrible vertical, poor ball-handling skills and the mental toughness of a third grade female. He would be Luke Ridnour at his absolute best.

[Stiff #1]

Alright people, that's enough. Time to stop denying the facts and realize that Jerry West and George Mikan would be nothing more than ass-scratching, ear-picking bums warming the very END of the OKC Thunder bench if they played today.

[Psileas]

West was 6'1" in shoes with a slow first step, terrible vertical, poor ball-handling skills and the mental toughness of a third grade female. He would be Luke Ridnour at his absolute best.

OK, whatever, BULLS/3323/Legends/G I N T/whatever else. :lol

[stephanieg]

What if Larry Bird played today? Do you think he would be better than Hedo Turkoglu or...?

Imagine if Manu had a Reggie Miller mid-range shot, was First Team All D and led the league in steals, blocks (for a guard), FTA, drove relentlessly, and could pass. Do you think a player like that would be good?

Did you ever see the 1972 All Star game?

Or the '69 Finals?

This guy is a robot.

Archibald said West played him the toughest...and West was old by then...

[Valliant13]

Alright people, that's enough. Time to stop denying the facts and realize that Jerry West and George Mikan would be nothing more than ass-scratching, ear-picking bums warming the very END of the OKC Thunder bench if they played today.

Grow up kid. Maybe make some friends so you don't spend you days forcing out the same repetitive schtick.

[Stiff #1]

This message is hidden because Psileas is on your ignore list. What was that?


What if Larry Bird played today? Do you think he would be better than Hedo Turkoglu or...?

Imagine if Manu had a Reggie Miller mid-range shot, was First Team All D and led the league in steals, blocks (for a guard), FTA, drove relentlessly, and could pass. Do you think a player like that would be good?

Did you ever see the 1972 All Star game?

Or the '69 Finals?

This guy is a robot.

Archibald said West played him the toughest...Did you read the original post? Is there any mention of Larry Bird, Manu Ginobili, or other stars/legends? I have seen the 1969 Finals and also the 1972 Finals. You might want to watch the '72 Finals again.

[Stiff #1]

Grow up kid. Maybe make some friends so you don't spend you days forcing out the same repetitive schtick.
Time for you to use some common sense and accept the fact that these guys would be powerade-chugging 12th men getting their only burn during 30-point blowouts.

[CasterL]

There's some ambiguity here. Do you mean if they were literally time warped here in their primes, or if they developed in today's climate with the advancement of the game? If you mean the former, then I think Mikan wouldn't be much better than a Jeff Foster, but West, I think, would be a good player. If you mean the latter scenario, then both have a good shot at becoming all star caliber players.


good post, i always thought this when questions like theese are posed

[Showtime]

Time for you to use some common sense and accept the fact that these guys would be powerade-chugging 12th men getting their only burn during 30-point blowouts.
If Robert Swift can be a starter, and Kwame Brown can be a starter, and Mark Blount can be a starter, then please STFU.

[JJ81]

I think West was skilled enough to hang, but Mikan would get abused. He would simply not be athletic enough to hang, IMO.

+1

[dawsey6]

I guess BULLS decided the emoticons weren't working his argument.

[Younggrease]

You don't think if Mikan was developed in today's NBA climate that he couldn't be as good as Kevin Love or Tyler Hansbrough coming in? Brad freaking Miller was an all star. I don't think it's a stretch to say Mikan could have a good shot at being one too.

Tyler Hansborough is not an NBA player...good job comparing him to only white players:no:

Mikan was very slow and not get off the ground. He also never competed against black players. if he made the league he would never get off the bench and surely never start.

Even if west grow up in the 80's he would still have trouble making the league...all the training in the world can only overcome so much.

[Showtime]

Tyler Hansborough is not an NBA player...good job comparing him to only white players:no:

Did you not see the part of my post where I was discussing his chances of becoming an all star COMING INTO THE LEAGUE? Tyler will be considered a player who has a good chance at being an all star when he enters, as was Kevin Love.


Mikan was very slow and not get off the ground. He also never competed against black players. if he made the league he would never get off the bench and surely never start.

Again, go back and read my post about the two DIFFERENT premises of the debate.


Even if west grow up in the 80's he would still have trouble making the league...all the training in the world can only overcome so much.

Today's players coming into the game grew up in the 90's and were born in the mid-late 80's. West, who was already a great athlete then, could certainly be capable of developing his body even further and being capable of reaching all star status.

[Godfather]

Did you not see the part of my post where I was discussing his chances of becoming an all star COMING INTO THE LEAGUE? Tyler will be considered a player who has a good chance at being an all star when he enters, as was Kevin Love.



Again, go back and read my post about the two DIFFERENT premises of the debate.



Today's players coming into the game grew up in the 90's and were born in the mid-late 80's. West, who was already a great athlete then, could certainly be capable of developing his body even further and being capable of reaching all star status.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[bagelred]

West was 6'1" in shoes with a slow first step, terrible vertical, poor ball-handling skills and the mental toughness of a third grade female. He would be Luke Ridnour at his absolute best.

Are you saying Luke Ridnour is going to be the new NBA Logo?

[Scott Pippen]

Tyler will be considered a player who has a good chance at being an all star when he enters, as was Kevin Love. http://www.nba.com/media/timberwolves/madsen_playerpreview_292.jpg

:applause:

[Stiff #1]

Are you saying Luke Ridnour is going to be the new NBA Logo?
Good point. The fact that a punk like Jerry West is the NBA logo just makes me wonder why the NBA has as many fans as it does. Name me one person with any basketball knowledge who believes West deserves the logo over any one of the following:

M. Jordan
S. O

[Showtime]

http://www.nba.com/media/timberwolves/madsen_playerpreview_292.jpg


:applause:

^ Madsen was a 29th pick, not top 5 (which Love was).


:roll: :roll: :roll:


"Will be considered" to be a player who could reach that level, not "will be an all star". Christian Laettner, Mike Bibby, etc were college stars who many thought were going to be big time players in the NBA. Christian made it to one all star game, and Bibby has never been an all star. Yet, they had the tools and the ability to be that level, no? Kevin Love and Tyler Hansbrough may never be all stars, but coming out of college and entering the NBA, they certainly have that potential and ability. If an undrafted Brad Miller can do it, then certainly Love and Hansbrough have the potential to do it. My original point about Mikan was that like these players, he would be no different in the aspect of having the potential and ability to one day be an all star player, and I think Mikan in today's league could have a good chance at being an all star talent if he was developed in today's basketball climate.

[Godfather]

^ Madsen was a 29th pick, not top 5 (which Love was).




"Will be considered" to be a player who could reach that level, not "will be an all star". Christian Laettner, Mike Bibby, etc were college stars who many thought were going to be big time players in the NBA. Christian made it to one all star game, and Bibby has never been an all star. Yet, they had the tools and the ability to be that level, no? Kevin Love and Tyler Hansbrough may never be all stars, but coming out of college and entering the NBA, they certainly have that potential and ability. If an undrafted Brad Miller can do it, then certainly Love and Hansbrough have the potential to do it. My original point about Mikan was that like these players, he would be no different in the aspect of having the potential and ability to one day be an all star player, and I think Mikan in today's league could have a good chance at being an all star talent if he was developed in today's basketball climate.

Do you watch/read college basketball. No one says Tyler is going to be an all star unless china mistakes him for one of their own. Draft boards have him in the 20's because he is an excellent hustle player who will bring some energy off the bench. You keep referring back to Brad Miller, but the fact is he had the tools and the size to succeed. While Tyler doesn't have the tools, the skill s (1 move post game with average jump shot) to become an all star.

I hate when people look at stats from college and expect greatness.

Certainly. Mikan though lacking the tools to compete in today's game has the skills..something Tyler does not.

[Showtime]

Do you watch/read college basketball. No one says Tyler is going to be an all star unless china mistakes him for one of their own. Draft boards have him in the 20's because he is an excellent hustle player who will bring some energy off the bench. You keep referring back to Brad Miller, but the fact is he had the tools and the size to succeed. While Tyler doesn't have the tools, the skill s (1 move post game with average jump shot) to become an all star.

The projections I've seen have Tyler around the 15 ish range, which isn't exactly "6th man" range. What you don't get about Miller was that he didn't have the tools when he came to the NBA. He played off the bench as a hornet before becoming a Bull. He wasn't a great passer or shooter then. He developed those skills. He became even better when he went to Indiana and then Sacramento. He didn't enter the league as a great shooter or passer. Love and Tyler may or may not be fully developed. While it may end up Tyler won't be more than a Maddog player, he can also develop his game like Brad Miller did.


I hate when people look at stats from college and expect greatness.

I'm not expecting greatness, just saying that the potential to develop into a star is there, and there isn't a reason to say that Mikan wouldn't have the potential to be a star either.


Certainly. Mikan though lacking the tools to compete in today's game has the skills..something Tyler does not.
That's exactly why I brought up Miller, because he didn't come into the league with those skills, he had to develop and improve them. Certainly Tyler will be coming into the league with better expectations than an undrafted Miller, wouldn't you agree? When Miller came into the league, I'm sure being a Maddog 6th man on a chip team would be something to strive for.

[OneMoreSucka]

Pryzbilla would make both of them his bltch.

[Godfather]

]The projections I've seen have Tyler around the 15 ish range, which isn't exactly "6th man" range. What you don't get about Miller was that he didn't have the tools when he came to the NBA. He played off the bench as a hornet before becoming a Bull. He wasn't a great passer or shooter then. He developed those skills.[/B] He became even better when he went to Indiana and then Sacramento. He didn't enter the league as a great shooter or passer. Love and Tyler aren't fully developed. While it may end up Tyler won't be more than a Maddog player, he can also develop his game like Brad Miller did.



I'm not expecting greatness, just saying that the potential to develop into a star is there, and there isn't a reason to say that Mikan wouldn't have the potential to be a star either.


That's exactly why I brought up Miller, because he didn't come into the league with those skills, he had to develop and improve them. Certainly Tyler will be coming into the league with better expectations than an undrafted Miller, wouldn't you agree? When Miller came into the league, I'm sure being a Maddog 6th man on a chip team would be something to strive for.

Please enlighten yourself with these up to date projections
http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_mock_drafts/8516
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2009/
http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/rank?draftyear=2009&action=login&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/rank%3fdraftyear%3d2009

Brad Miller had the size the and the athleticism when he came into the league. What do you mean he didn't have the tools?

Yes Tyler can develop his skills, but right now he does not have a stable post game, he cannot shoot at a long range, does not have the passing ability, and most importantly he does not have the size nor athleticism to compete with NBA bigs.

Stop comparing Love to Tyler aside from both being white their games and personalities are completely different.

[Psileas]

Even if west grow up in the 80's he would still have trouble making the league...all the training in the world can only overcome so much.

Reasons, please, reasons.

Is it because he didn't use to perform dunks or crossovers? In case you forgot, Larry Bird didn't perform these, either, and Bird as an athlete was clearly West's inferior. Or is it something deeper. Hey, if I have the right to say whatever the hell comes to my mind without justifying it, I can also say that Bird would not survive in the 00's.

[Showtime]

Please enlighten yourself with these up to date projections
http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_mock_drafts/8516
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2009/
http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/rank?draftyear=2009&action=login&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/rank%3fdraftyear%3d2009



Ok, so those sites have him in the 20's. I stand corrected. I guess the general consensus isn't that Hansbrough will be a star player. However, my point about potential to develop remains.


Brad Miller had the size the and the athleticism when he came into the league. What do you mean he didn't have the tools?

Size and athleticism? Maybe size, but he was never a great athlete. Also, he wasn't an all star because of his athleticism. He was an all star because of his passing and shooting skills, which he developed. When he was traded to Sacramento, he didn't make the all star team because of his athleticism. Vlade didn't make the all star team because he was a great athlete.


Yes Tyler can develop his skills, but right now he does not have a stable post game, he cannot shoot at a long range, does not have the passing ability, and most importantly he does not have the size nor athleticism to compete with NBA bigs.

6'8'' 245lb isn't bad for a PF, and I think he can hold his own physically (West and Brand and Barkley could hold their own physically). Also, shooting and passing are skills that can be developed, which is one major point why I keep referencing Miller. Miller had no post game, and made a living off the elbow midrange shot, passing ability, running the floor and setting screens. Again, Tyler may NEVER be any better than he is right now, but that doesn't mean the potential to develop further isn't there. This discussion has gotten a little out of hand. My original comments were about potential to become stars in the league, not a breakdown of each players' games. I think we can agree that Mikan wouldn't be worse than Love or Hansbrough, so I think it's safe to say that if Love gets taken at 5, then it's quite possible Mikan would be considered a player who would have a good shot at being an all star one day.


Stop comparing Love to Tyler aside from both being white their games and personalities are completely different.
I wasn't comparing their games or personalities. I was simply bringing out how both have potential, and that Mikan wouldn't be WORSE than those two. If Hansbrough can be a top 20 pick, and Love can be a top 5 pick, then certainly Mikan wouldn't be considered worse, and therefore wouldn't be a bench scrub. Contrarily, I think Mikan would have a good shot at becoming an all star if a player like Brad Miller (who coming into the league didn't have nearly the expectations of Hansbrough) could do it.

[gts]

http://cache.nba.com/media/history/mikan_bw.gif

George Mikan

Enshrined 1959
Born: June 18, 1924
Joliet, IL
Died: June 2, 2005


The marquee above Madison Square Garden that flashed "George Mikan vs. Knicks" aptly told the story of basketball's original superstar. The first dominant big man in professional ball, George Mikan played with a competitive fire and zest matched by few. Playing under Hall of Fame coach Ray Meyer at DePaul University, the 6-foot-10 Mikan along with fellow Hall of Famer Bob Kurland, swatted away so many shots that in 1944 the NCAA introduced a rule that prohibited goaltending. Unaffected by the rule change, Mikan led DePaul to the 1945 NIT title. Mikan enjoyed an extraordinary professional career, most notably winning championships with the Minneapolis Lakers. A dominating offensive force, Mikan led three different professional leagues in scoring and set the standard for all future centers. He was voted the greatest player in the first half century by the Associated Press.



All-America at DePaul, 1944, 1945
All-NBA First-Team, 1950-54
Four-time NBA All-Star, 1951-54
Championships with the Chicago Gears, 1947, and Minneapolis Lakers, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1952-54

[Maniak]

Why must Jeff let this ****head always come back and **** his dumbass posts all over the forum?

[blazerftc]

Why do people always try and compare players from the past to the modern league/players. You just can't. The only thing you can compare them to is the league/players they competed against. Back then players had to take other jobs in the offseason for example, because pay was a tiny fraction of what pro athletes make now. They didn't have time, resources, equipment, staff, etc. that modern athletes have. How good do you think a guy like say VC would be if he had to take a job driving a cab in the offseason, and only made $200 a game, with no time for the physical training, and the dedicated coaching and skill development that he enjoys today?

[Kiddlovesnets]

Would they...

A) Be better (be mentioned with Jordan/Wilt/Bird/Shaq)
B) Be the same (superstars)
C) Suck (rot on the bench for the OKC Thunder)

Your thoughts.

George Mikan is not gonna be better than Jordan/Wilt/Bird/Shaq since he's actually undersized in current NBA as a center(6'10"), but would still be a superstar player and make All-star games every year. For Jerry West, well, I'm telling you he'd still be the 2nd SG in NBA franchise history, better than Kobe.

[trig]

the players and basketball itself evolves

[Younggrease]

Reasons, please, reasons.

Is it because he didn't use to perform dunks or crossovers? In case you forgot, Larry Bird didn't perform these, either, and Bird as an athlete was clearly West's inferior. Or is it something deeper. Hey, if I have the right to say whatever the hell comes to my mind without justifying it, I can also say that Bird would not survive in the 00's.
It was a typo..I meant Mikan..I was in a hurry...I take that back im a huge West fan and he was a hell of an athlete

Still think Mikan might not make the league..

[stephanieg]

Hey, if I have the right to say whatever the hell comes to my mind without justifying it, I can also say that Bird would not survive in the 00's.

Some trolls do say that. Actually, the scary thing is they may not be trolling. I'm not sure if it's a racist thing or a "I'm 16 and have no idea what I'm talking about" thing. Maybe a little bit of both.

We know if Hedo played in the 80s he could have three MVPs too.

I can understand those who say every player before 1980 would be a scrub. Well, OK, I don't, but at least they're consistent. I don't understand those who try to pick and choose. Like, some of these posters talk about oh, Wilt and Russell and the Big O would own today. But West is a scrub. OK, then I guess every other guard in the league would be a scrub too because West dominated them. But I don't think they want to say Archibald and those others fast black guards are scrubs...

West was more of an athlete than Manu and Nash and they have no trouble blowing past people. It's very confusing.

[Manute for Ever!]

Some trolls do say that. Actually, the scary thing is they may not be trolling. I'm not sure if it's a racist thing or a "I'm 16 and have no idea what I'm talking about" thing. Maybe a little bit of both.

We know if Hedo played in the 80s he could have three MVPs too.

I can understand those who say every player before 1980 would be a scrub. Well, OK, I don't, but at least they're consistent. I don't understand those who try to pick and choose. Like, some of these posters talk about oh, Wilt and Russell and the Big O would own today. But West is a scrub. OK, then I guess every other guard in the league would be a scrub too because West dominated them. But I don't think they want to say Archibald and those others fast black guards are scrubs...

West was more of an athlete than Manu and Nash and they have no trouble blowing past people. It's very confusing.

:applause: Nailed it.

[Stiff #1]

George Mikan is not gonna be better than Jordan/Wilt/Bird/Shaq since he's actually undersized in current NBA as a center(6'10"), but would still be a superstar player and make All-star games every year. For Jerry West, well, I'm telling you he'd still be the 2nd SG in NBA franchise history, better than Kobe.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

How is this? West isn't even the second best SG ever RIGHT NOW. Here is the order:

Jordan
Kobe
Drexler
Iverson
Gervin
West

West is only the sixth best SG ever. If he played today, he'd be on the same level as Travis Diener and Kirk Hinrich... so how would he be second best all-time when he couldn't even be second at his own position?

And Mikan would not be a superstar today. He'd be a Mark Madsen clone at best.

[Manute for Ever!]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

How is this? West isn't even the second best SG ever RIGHT NOW. Here is the order:

Jordan
Kobe
Drexler
Iverson
Gervin
West

West is only the sixth best SG ever. If he played today, he'd be on the same level as Travis Diener and Kirk Hinrich... so how would he be second best all-time when he couldn't even be second at his own position?

And Mikan would not be a superstar today. He'd be a Mark Madsen clone at best.

Can I borrow your crystal ball one day, I want this weeks lotto numbers...

[dnyk1337]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

How is this? West isn't even the second best SG ever RIGHT NOW. Here is the order:

Jordan
Kobe
Drexler
Iverson
Gervin
West

West is only the sixth best SG ever. If he played today, he'd be on the same level as Travis Diener and Kirk Hinrich... so how would he be second best all-time when he couldn't even be second at his own position?

And Mikan would not be a superstar today. He'd be a Mark Madsen clone at best.

You're a ****ing retard. I hope you accidentally drive your car under a moving freight train.

[Manute for Ever!]

You're a ****ing retard. I hope you accidentally drive your car under a moving freight train.

This is BULLS / 5 3 2 3 / 3323 etc. etc. you are talking about....

[dnyk1337]

This is BULLS / 5 3 2 3 / 3323 etc. etc. you are talking about....

Oh my bad...

I hope you die a painful death that lasts over 48 hours.

Is that better?

[Stiff #1]

This is BULLS / 5 3 2 3 / 3323 etc. etc. you are talking about....
Who?

[dnyk1337]

Who?

Deez Nuts.

[Stiff #1]

Deez Nuts.
Who are you, kid? Do I know you? Go read some books about the history of the game before you further embarrass yourself.

[Manute for Ever!]

Who?

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/ATA/24584GB~Bushisms-Can-t-Fool-Me-Posters.jpg

[dnyk1337]

Who are you, kid? Do I know you? Go read some books about the history of the game before you further embarrass yourself.

wtf? BULLS, you're an idiot. I knew who you were the second I read your first post. You make outlandish statements, and then love to use :rolleyes: or :roll: a lot.

[Manute for Ever!]

wtf? BULLS, you're an idiot. I knew who you were the second I read your first post. You make outlandish statements, and then love to use :rolleyes: or :roll: a lot.

And refer to everyone who challenges him as "Kid" as well as stating he owns / has seen a lot of footage from the '60's and '70's. Also, comparing legends of the past to current scrubs is his forte.

[dnyk1337]

And refer to everyone who challenges him as "Kid" as well as stating he owns / has seen a lot of footage from the '60's and '70's. Also, comparing legends of the past to current scrubs is his forte.

And he will NEVER EVER proclaim anything he says as wrong. He could be shown a video of his wife cheating on him with the milkman, and BULLS would always deny it until he died. He's just that stupid.

[Manute for Ever!]

And he will NEVER EVER proclaim anything he says as wrong. He could be shown a video of his wife cheating on him with the milkman, and BULLS would always deny it until he died. He's just that stupid.

I know it, this is my ISH arch-rival you are talking about here. I don't think I have butted heads with a poster as much as I have with this guy in my time on ISH. :ohwell:

[Stiff #1]

What are you bums talking about? I've never heard of this "BULLS" character, nor have I ever seen him post here. I joined this board in November. You have the wrong guy.

[dawsey6]

What are you bums talking about? I've never heard of this "BULLS" character, nor have I ever seen him post here. I joined this board in November. You have the wrong guy.

Whether you're BULLS or not, you suck at logical debates, as evidence to this thread. Sorry, kid.

:confusedshrug:

[Psileas]

He is BULLS. He put me right away in his IL, which only he would do after a single post of mine. So predictable it's not even funny.

(Allow me, though. :oldlol: )

[Maniak]

Am I the only one who finds the name "Stiff #1" quite odd?

[dnyk1337]

Am I the only one who finds the name "Stiff #1" quite odd?

It's quite appropriate. He gets a hard-on every time Kobe plays against Chicago.

[TmacsRockets]

West would be the best player in the game. Mikan would be top 5.

[Maniak]

It's quite appropriate. He gets a hard-on every time Kobe plays against Chicago.

How does an 8 year old get these things?

[Stiff #1]

West would be the best player in the game. Mikan would be top 5.
West would be as good as J.J. Redick.

Mikan would struggle against Mark Madsen and Brian Cardinal.

[dnyk1337]

How does an 8 year old get these things?

It's not even funny, but BULLS is over 29 years old. I have some reasons to believe he is over 35 and actually married. I can only feel terror when I think of that.

[Stiff #1]

Ok people, that's enough. If you can't stay on topic, then GTFO of this thread. Nobody knows who the hell this "BULLS" poster is. If he even exists, just know that I am not him.

[Maniak]

It's not even funny, but BULLS is over 29 years old. I have some reasons to believe he is over 35 and actually married. I can only feel terror when I think of that.

That is disturbing....

Who knew society could be THIS stupid?

[blazerftc]

Wow, how many of these threads has BULLS made. I really don't understand the lockjaw hatred of players from the NBA BDS (Before David Stern).

I'll just ask: Stiff #1, why do you carry such disdain for legendary players that played before the 80's?

[Maniak]

Wow, how many of these threads has BULLS made. I really don't understand the lockjaw hatred of players from the NBA BDS (Before David Stern).

I'll just ask: Stiff #1, why do you carry such disdain for legendary players that played before the 80's?

Because they didnt include Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, or Jichael Mordan, duh.

[Stiff #1]

Wow, how many of these threads has BULLS made. I really don't understand the lockjaw hatred of players from the NBA BDS (Before David Stern).

I'll just ask: Stiff #1, why do you carry such disdain for legendary players that played before the 80's?
Who is BULLS?

How is asking a simple question "carrying disdain" for certain players?

[JellyBean]

Good question.

I think that if West and Mikan played in today's game, they would be decent but man would they get burned.

[blazerftc]

Who is BULLS?

How is asking a simple question "carrying disdain" for certain players?

It's the tone you set with the question. And of course the part where you answer yourself by saying obviously negative things about the players in question. So, I'll ask again, why do you hate players from before the 80's?

[Stiff #1]

Unlike most members of this forum, I am mature enough not to "hate" any professional athlete. I just asked whether or not two players would be good today.

[blazerftc]

Unlike most members of this forum, I am mature enough not to "hate" any professional athlete. I just asked whether or not two players would be good today.

Which is then followed by numerous people telling you that you can't just take a player and drop him into the modern league and tell him sink or swim. Mostly because time travel is impossible, but also due to innumerable other factors including differences in coaching, physical training, pay, etc.

The modern league is BUILT on the past, and the accomplishments of these players that you claim would be "scrubs". If you disagree with that, why do we still keep records at all? And, without them there would be no Michael Jordan, no Kobe Bryant, etc.

[Stiff #1]

Which is then followed by numerous people telling you that you can't just take a player and drop him into the modern league and tell him sink or swim. Mostly because time travel is impossible, but also due to innumerable other factors including differences in coaching, physical training, pay, etc.

The modern league is BUILT on the past, and the accomplishments of these players that you claim would be "scrubs". If you disagree with that, why do we still keep records at all? And, without them there would be no Michael Jordan, no Kobe Bryant, etc.
:oldlol:

[blazerftc]

:oldlol:
:applause:

And you wonder why people think you're a jerk...

[F.Sanford]

Alright people, that's enough. Time to stop denying the facts and realize that Jerry West and George Mikan would be nothing more than ass-scratching, ear-picking bums warming the very END of the OKC Thunder bench if they played today.

Hey, give Stiff #1 some credit! He waited until post #12 to type this gem and give his actual reason for the post.

Wait - 6 of the first 11 posts were his.?... Never mind. :sleeping

[momo]

http://www.agoravox.fr/IMG/do_not_feed_trolls.jpg

[SRZ66]

jerry west = jeff hornacek
george mikan = gheorge muresan

[MiseryCityTexas]

jerry west = jeff hornacek
george mikan = gheorge muresan

i think west would be much better than jeff hornacek if he played in today's era.

i think george mikan wouldn't even play center if he played today.

[blazerftc]

i think west would be much better than jeff hornacek if he played in today's era.

i think george mikan wouldn't even play center if he played today.

Of course not, he was 6'10". But, like I was arguing with the OP, how can you be certain what he would play like given how the league has evolved in the past 50+ years?

[Stiff #1]

The league hasn't evolved at all. What are you talking about? A 6'4" player doesn't magically grow 3 inches if he is born 40 years later.

With undersized centers like Udonis Haslem and Dwight Howard, Mikan probably would play center in today's league.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't be destroyed by guys like Zaza Pachulia and Erick Dampier.

[Showtime]

The league hasn't evolved at all.

The game has evolved, the climate around the game has evolved, and the technology and health aspects have evolved dumbass.


What are you talking about? A 6'4" player doesn't magically grow 3 inches if he is born 40 years later.

No moron, but a 6'4'' player who is an impressive athlete in the 60's could develop into a more impressive 6'4'' athlete with modern training and the benefit of having an easier road to dedicate oneself to the game, specifically off the court.


With undersized centers like Udonis Haslem and Dwight Howard, Mikan probably would play center in today's league.

Or, he could be a PF or both PF/C. Just because there has been smaller centers doesn't automatically mean he would probably play C. There have been tall PF's like Duncan, Brad Miller, Sheed, KG, Dirk, etc. That doesn't mean he would automatically play PF either.


That doesn't mean he wouldn't be destroyed by guys like Zaza Pachulia and Erick Dampier.

lol how you come up with this stuff is beyond me. You have no way of knowing what he would do, and neither do I. It's all conjecture, and it's amusing how you take such a firm stance on how he would play.

[Stiff #1]

The game has evolved, the climate around the game has evolved, and the technology and health aspects have evolved dumbass. How is this? Just because you say so? Just because you wish it happened? The game hasn't evolved at all.


No moron, but a 6'4'' player who is an impressive athlete in the 60's could develop into a more impressive 6'4'' athlete with modern training and the benefit of having an easier road to dedicate oneself to the game, specifically off the court.Silly post. An unathletic 6'4" player from the 60s would be an unathletic 6'4" player in the 90s or 00s. Only difference is that he'd probably get no playing time.


Or, he could be a PF or both PF/C. Just because there has been smaller centers doesn't automatically mean he would probably play C. There have been tall PF's like Duncan, Brad Miller, Sheed, KG, Dirk, etc. That doesn't mean he would automatically play PF either.Or, he could be far too slow to defend PFs but have the height to play C, meaning he'd play C and no other position (even though he'd be too slow to defend the average C, but the average C is slower than the average PF).


lol how you come up with this stuff is beyond me. You have no way of knowing what he would do, and neither do I. It's all conjecture, and it's amusing how you take such a firm stance on this issue. I suggest you learn a little about NBA history. You have proven that you don't really understand the difference between today's players and the ones from the 60s.

[Psileas]

i think west would be much better than jeff hornacek if he played in today's era.

i think george mikan wouldn't even play center if he played today.



Of course not, he was 6'10". But, like I was arguing with the OP, how can you be certain what he would play like given how the league has evolved in the past 50+ years?

Why not play center? Mikan was 6'10 barefoot, so he'd be listed either at 6'11 or even 7'0 without needing to increase height. He weighed about 250 lbs and had a pair of pretty wide and sharp shoulders. Plus, he was mentally tough: He once scored 28 points in a Finals game while playing with a cast in his injured hand. In another Finals game, in which his team played on the road, there was a rumor that he was allergic to smoke, so opponent fans had lighted thousands of cigarettes (yes, it seems like they allowed that stuff back then). He punished them by scoring about 42 points in that game.

[blazerftc]

snip

How has the game not evolved. Wow, for someone who claims to know more history than anyone to claim that the game has not evolved must not remember that running on the court was once against the rules...

Rules change, training changes (For instance, at one time basketball trainers forbade lifting weights, claiming that building muscle limited flexibility).

Getting back to rules, how about the hand check rule?

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point...

[blazerftc]

Why not play center? Mikan was 6'10 barefoot, so he'd be listed either at 6'11 or even 7'0 without needing to increase height. He weighed about 250 lbs and had a pair of pretty wide and sharp shoulders. Plus, he was mentally tough: He once scored 28 points in a Finals game while playing with a cast in his injured hand. In another Finals game, in which his team played on the road, there was a rumor that he was allergic to smoke, so opponent fans had lighted thousands of cigarettes (yes, it seems like they allowed that stuff back then). He punished them by scoring about 42 points in that game.


And he also played on a broken leg. Not a sprain, or strain, or any other BS that keeps bigs out for 4-6 weeks. A BROKEN leg. Only missed two games in his career.

Even Shaq was quoted saying, "Without number 99 [Mikan], there is no me." when offering to pay for his funeral.

I think he would be a PF in today's leauge, however. If he were brought up in modern highschools/colleges that is. A little lighter, and more agile, I think he'd be something like a Chris Bosh. Better or not, I don't know, but I think the style would be pretty similar

[Stiff #1]

And he also played on a broken leg. Not a sprain, or strain, or any other BS that keeps bigs out for 4-6 weeks. A BROKEN leg. Only missed two games in his career.

Even Shaq was quoted saying, "Without number 99 [Mikan], there is no me." when offering to pay for his funeral.

I think he would be a PF in today's leauge, however. If he were brought up in modern highschools/colleges that is. A little lighter, and more agile, I think a someone like a Chris Bosh. Better or not, I don't know, but I think the style would be pretty similar
It's nice to make up quotes when you are running out of arguments. It's also funny considering that Shaq was born nearly 2 decades after Mikan's last season.

Shaq would beat Mikan into a pulp. If Mikan didn't exist, Shaq would still win 4 titles, 3 consecutive Finals MVPs, average 30 ppg in his best year, etc. Mikan had no impact on Shaq.

Can you imagine the two playing each other? :oldlol:

[Showtime]

How is this? Just because you say so? Just because you wish it happened? The game hasn't evolved at all.

Are you serious? I'll start it off:

THE WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED HAS CHANGED. There are different rules. I'm not going to explain them all, but for starters there's a 3 point line, restricted zone in the lane, goaltending, shot clock, 3 second rule, etc. The pace is much slower today, and how the game is played has changed. Is your viewpoint seriously that nothing has changed since Mikan played?

Because of the progress of the game, players who have broken new ground in certain areas have provided the basis for the next generation of players to develop those skills. For instance, the development of the dribble has progressed. Some guys only dribbled with one hand in Mikan's day. Then guys started using both. The "crossover" was simply an exchange between one hand to the other originally, but now it's commonly referred to a dribble between the legs. Guys like Cousy and Pistol were doing things ahead of their times, and because of the PROGRESSION of the sport, we now see players like AI, Chris Paul, and Tim Hardaway who were great ball handlers. Dribbling between the legs, with both hands, behind the back, etc are common abilities by today's guards which were things that were brought about by the progression. And that's just one example.

Also, the talent pool has expanded, the game has become more popular and because of that, the younger players have more ways of developing their games than in the 50's (including the racism that occurred). It's also easier off the court today, because if a player is talented, he gets to go to a top school, has it on easy street, and when he makes it to the league, gets paid an astronomical amount of money. Players in the 50's didn't get paid a lot of money compared to today's ratios, and some had to hold jobs in the off season. There were no private jets, but charter buses. Players today can afford personal trainers and dietitians who can prepare meals and they can have the luxury of dedicating themselves fully to the game, unlike former players. It's much easier in today's game to not only develop oneself as a player physically, but also off the court as well.




Silly post. An unathletic 6'4" player from the 60s would be an unathletic 6'4" player in the 90s or 00s. Only difference is that he'd probably get no playing time.

Uh, West wasn't "unathletic". My point was that a top athlete then could certainly improve his body today compared to then. Not only has technology in regards to training methods improved and treatments to injuries, but as I pointed out earlier, it's easier for a player to develop themselves because of the change around the game as it's easier to take advantage of those assets. THE LEAGUE IS A HUGE BUSINESS NOW, and there is far more invested in a team resource wise than back then. There's no way Dwight Howard would be the physical specimen he is today if he were playing in the 50's or 60's. He'd be impressive nontheless ala Nate Thurmond, but he wouldn't have such a developed body or jumping ability, as the training and methods used today weren't available back then.

Just look at what Howard does: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1HIQpeyqTo

Mikan didn't have the luxury of having such resources and time to develop himself like today's players. He didn't have team gyms, trainers, equipment, training methods, diets, etc etc that helped Howard become what he is today.


Or, he could be far too slow to defend PFs but have the height to play C, meaning he'd play C and no other position (even though he'd be too slow to defend the average C, but the average C is slower than the average PF).

I have no idea if he would be "far too slow", because there's no way of knowing how fast he would be if he trained in today's environment. BTW, Miller isn't anything near quick or athletic, and yet he was an all star PF.


I suggest you learn a little about NBA history. You have proven that you don't really understand the difference between today's players and the ones from the 60s.
Did you seriously just type this?

[Manute for Ever!]

It's nice to make up quotes when you are running out of arguments. It's also funny considering that Shaq was born nearly 2 decades after Mikan's last season.

Shaq would beat Mikan into a pulp. If Mikan didn't exist, Shaq would still win 4 titles, 3 consecutive Finals MVPs, average 30 ppg in his best year, etc. Mikan had no impact on Shaq.

Can you imagine the two playing each other? :oldlol:

SHAQ WAS REFERRING TO MIKAN AS A PIONEER, YOU IDIOT!!! :mad: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :mad:

[Mateo]

Do they get to grow up in today's basketball environment, train with modern equipment, use modern basketball schemes? Or are we plucking them right out their primes with a time machine? Because that makes a bit of a difference.

[Stiff #1]

Because of the progress of the game, players who have broken new ground in certain areas have provided the basis for the next generation of players to develop those skills. For instance, the development of the dribble has progressed. Some guys only dribbled with one hand in Mikan's day. Then guys started using both. The "crossover" was simply an exchange between one hand to the other originally, but now it's commonly referred to a dribble between the legs. Guys like Cousy and Pistol were doing things ahead of their times, and because of the PROGRESSION of the sport, we now see players like AI, Chris Paul, and Tim Hardaway who were great ball handlers. Dribbling between the legs, with both hands, behind the back, etc are common abilities by today's guards which were things that were brought about by the progression. And that's just one example.Yes, and you know why they dribbled with one hand, looked down at the ball, and embarrassed themselves when trying to pull off a simple crossover that guys like Luke Ridnour can pull off with ease today? Because they were unathletic garbage.


Also, the talent pool has expanded, the game has become more popular and because of that, the younger players have more ways of developing their games than in the 50's (including the racism that occurred). It's also easier off the court today, because if a player is talented, he gets to go to a top school, has it on easy street, and when he makes it to the league, gets paid an astronomical amount of money. Players in the 50's didn't get paid a lot of money compared to today's ratios, and some had to hold jobs in the off season. There were no private jets, but charter buses. Players today can afford personal trainers and dietitians who can prepare meals and they can have the luxury of dedicating themselves fully to the game, unlike former players. It's much easier in today's game to not only develop oneself as a player physically, but also off the court as well.
:roll:
Sorry, but having charter buses and private jets doesn't affect one's play at all. It's as easy to develop yourself physically today as it was back then. However, players today are much more athletic.


Uh, West wasn't "unathletic". My point was that a top athlete then could certainly improve his body today compared to then. Not only has technology in regards to training methods improved and treatments to injuries, but as I pointed out earlier, it's easier for a player to develop themselves because of the change around the game as it's easier to take advantage of those assets. THE LEAGUE IS A HUGE BUSINESS NOW, and there is far more invested in a team resource wise than back then. There's no way Dwight Howard would be the physical specimen he is today if he were playing in the 50's or 60's. He'd be impressive nontheless ala Nate Thurmond, but he wouldn't have such a developed body or jumping ability, as the training and methods used today weren't available back then. West was unathletic. The abnormal freak of nature back then would be an abnormal freak of nature today. A top athlete back then would be an ok athlete today. A mediocre athlete back then would be a crap athlete today. A decent player back then would suck today. That's how it works.


Just look at what Howard does: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1HIQpeyqTo

Mikan didn't have the luxury of having such resources and time to develop himself like today's players. He didn't have team gyms, trainers, equipment, training methods, diets, etc etc that helped Howard become what he is today.Mikan couldn't dream of doing what Howard does with these so-called "gyms, trainers, equipment, training methods and diets" today's players have. He just wasn't athletic enough.


I have no idea if he would be "far too slow", because there's no way of knowing how fast he would be if he trained in today's environment. BTW, Miller isn't anything near quick or athletic, and yet he was an all star PF. Miller was much more athletic than Mikan and is a one-time fluke all-star. He made that all-star appearance during a time when the center position was filled with terrible players.

[trig]

BULLS wont stop until his idol Herbert Hill gets the mvp

[F.Sanford]

The game hasn't evolved at all.

You should put that phrase above your avatar once you get enough posts. Wraps up your credibility quite nicely.

[Showtime]

Yes, and you know why they dribbled with one hand, looked down at the ball, and embarrassed themselves when trying to pull off a simple crossover that guys like Luke Ridnour can pull of with ease today? Because they were unathletic garbage.

Do you have any understanding of progression? THEY WERE BREAKING NEW GROUND BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING SOMETHING THAT HADN'T BEEN DONE BEFORE. Without them, you wouldn't have the players we see today.


:roll:
Sorry, but having charter buses and private jets doesn't affect one's play at all. It's as easy to develop yourself physically today as it was back then. However, players today are much more athletic.

You are retarded. Off the court, players have a MUCH easier time developing because they have less and less to worry about. Their lives are easier because of economics of the game and the assets at their disposal in regards to the games. If you refuse to accept that, then I'm sorry but you are a moron.


West was unathletic. The abnormal freak of nature back then would be an abnormal freak of nature today.

That's exactly my point. It's not that they were lesser people, but that today's methods help players reach their potential easier. West today would be a better athlete than he was because things have changed, just like Dwight would be a lesser specimen because he wouldn't have the advantages of the modern game.


Mikan couldn't dream of doing what Howard does with these so-called "gyms, trainers, equipment, training methods and diets" today's players have. He just wasn't athletic enough.

What kind of logic is that? Howard DEVELOPED himself, just like Mikan could develop himself. Are you seriously saying Mikan was so physically inferior that he WAS INCAPABLE OF WORKING OUT IN A GYM?


Goddam, half my ignore list are your aliases, so WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A HINT AND LEAVE FOR GOOD? Or at least announce yourself whenever you make another one so we can all put you on ignore. Your level of stupidity is beyond absurd, to the point where I can only explain your level of stupidity as sarcasm.

[Stiff #1]

Do you have any understanding of progression? THEY WERE BREAKING NEW GROUND BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING SOMETHING THAT HADN'T BEEN DONE BEFORE. Without them, you wouldn't have the players we see today.LMFAO. I take it that basketball is a new sport to you? Without them, we'd have the same players we have today. That's just obvious.


You are retarded. Off the court, players have a MUCH easier time developing because they have less and less to worry about. Their lives are easier because of economics of the game and the assets at their disposal in regards to the games. If you refuse to accept that, then I'm sorry but you are a moron.Wrong again. Off the court, players have arguably a harder time developing because of the need to worry about the media's questions, public perception, etc. Back then, these bums had everything easy. The media didn't care about anything or make up bullsh*t rumors to stir up controversy. Players back then were soft.


That's exactly my point. It's not that they were lesser people, but that today's methods help players reach their potential easier. West today would be a better athlete than he was because things have changed, just like Dwight would be a lesser specimen because he wouldn't have the advantages of the modern game.Learn the game. West would not be a better athlete if he played today because nothing has changed. If he wasn't a great athlete back then, when it was easier to train/develop your game, then he'd be a terrible one today.


What kind of logic is that? Howard DEVELOPED himself, just like Mikan could develop himself. Are you seriously saying Mikan was so physically inferior that he WAS INCAPABLE OF WORKING OUT IN A GYM? You don't understand it? Too bad.


Goddam, half my ignore list are your aliases, so WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A HINT AND LEAVE FOR GOOD? Or at least announce yourself whenever you make another one so we can all put you on ignore. Your level of stupidity is beyond absurd, to the point where I can only explain your level of stupidity as sarcasm. Alias? Get a clue. I started posting here 2 days ago.

[Mateo]

Does this mean 30 years from now we're going to say that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson were unathletic garbage?

[Showtime]

Does this mean 30 years from now we're going to say that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson were unathletic garbage?
Who were physically incapable of working out in gyms. They were barely able to hobble upcourt in the game that hasn't had one single change in 50+ years.

[Stiff #1]

Does this mean 30 years from now we're going to say that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson were unathletic garbage?
If not for the fact that Jordan is and always will be one of the 4-6 most athletic players to ever play the game, then sure.

[Aidan]

If not for the fact that Jordan is and always will be one of the 4-6 most athletic players to ever play the game, then sure.

Definitly not always. In about 20/30 years, they're will probably be 6+ more athletic players than Jordan. Not better, just more athletic.

[Rocketswin2013]

Bump.


Now Jerry West was 6'3, fairly athletic, and had a 6'10 wingspan. And on top of that, a crazy quick release. He'd be just as good.



But Mikan? :kobe:

[played0ut]

He had a trick to his lightning quick release. Right before he shoots he would pound the ball hard and catch it on the way up for a quick release.

Much quicker than loading the normal way.

[Marchesk]

West is as tall as Kobe with long arms and could get 16 inches above the rim in college. His last season in 73-74, he averaged 2.6 steals and 0.7 blocks at age 35.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Jerry west would be top 5 in league, Mikan maybe top 15ish

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Picture a peak shaq with Bill Russell defense and rebounding and great freethrow shooting and you get George Mikan.

[Psileas]

:oldlol:
Stiff1 is one of the historically biggest and oldest trolls ever, he'd been posting and banned in lots of forums and, of course, sought refuge in the official Asylum of NBA boards, and even here, after some time, he started getting repeatedly banned and changing nicknames. This topic is pretty old by itself (2008), and stiff1 had already been banned a crapload of times.

Did anyone think of that Ming 7_6 guy?
(I'm not implying they are the same person, but their cases had creepy similarities. But it seems like "stiff" gave up eventually).

[secund2nun]

Does this mean 30 years from now we're going to say that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson were unathletic garbage?

As the years fly by the rate of progress slows. It's no different than economic growth in countries. It started rapidly and now grows very slowly in 1st world nations while 2nd/3rd world nations rapidly grow.

Mikan was a scrub who played in the 50s. That's the truth.

http://www.latimes.com/includes/projects/img/lakers/bio_photos/coach_george_mikan.jpg

Mikan that played in 1950s: Hello I am a superstar HOF NBA center

Had he lived today he would say: Standard or itemized?

[Rocketswin2013]

:oldlol:
Stiff1 is one of the historically biggest and oldest trolls ever, he'd been posting and banned in lots of forums and, of course, sought refuge in the official Asylum of NBA boards, and even here, after some time, he started getting repeatedly banned and changing nicknames. This topic is pretty old by itself (2008), and stiff1 had already been banned a crapload of times.

Did anyone think of that Ming 7_6 guy?
(I'm not implying they are the same person, but their cases had creepy similarities. But it seems like "stiff" gave up eventually).
I bet he still posts.