the day that the USA leadership can effectively criticize...

[RainierBeachPoet]

israel's aggression towards the palestinians, is the day we will move toward a more lasting peace.

when the US essentially blames hamas for these disproportionate bombings by israel, we will continue to lose credibility in the world and further give islamic countries reasons to be suspicious of our own actions.

this will further lead to extremists using our own actions against us (like they have used abu ghraib and guantanamo) in their recruitment of others to their cause

but dont hold your breath because of the strong pro-israeli lobby is strong

what will obama do with this mess?

[Rasheed1]

israel's aggression towards the palestinians, is the day we will move toward a more lasting peace.

when the US essentially blames hamas for these disproportionate bombings by israel, we will continue to lose credibility in the world and further give islamic countries reasons to be suspicious of our own actions.

this will further lead to extremists using our own actions against us (like they have used abu ghraib and guantanamo) in their recruitment of others to their cause

but dont hold your breath because of the strong pro-israeli lobby is strong

what will obama do with this mess?


you are right on as usual RBP...

Obama wont do a thing.... he only got that gig because he was able to impress their lobby... he aint about to speak out of turn now.....

[Hawker]

We shouldn't even take sides. It's not our business so we just need to stay out of it.

[bada bing]

We shouldn't even take sides. It's not our business so we just need to stay out of it.

yes i agree but we are taking sides and putting the entire blame on the palestinians. When we repeatedly block UN resolutions when everyone else votes yes, that says we are being hypocrites. Obama is not going to do a thing. Its amazing how strong the jewish lobby is in the US and how far up the anus of our politicians they are.

if we talk about spreading democracy and unity to the world, we need to be fair in our judgement of Israel and Palestine. No one is saying to blame Israel 100% but no one is saying to not blame Israel 100% of the time either.

[rufuspaul]

The fact that Hamas is in the equation makes it tough because of our "never negotiate with terrorists" doctrine. Any criticism of Israel would be played as support for terrorism. If Obama fails, he joins every president in the last 2 centuries. Call me skeptical, but I don't really see anything new that Hillary can bring to the table.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Obama will do what every American President does: Nothing. How can America criticize Israel for bombing Hamas when we overthrew the Iraqi government in retaliation to a bunch of Saudis launching 9/11? At least Israel is going after the actual culprits. Personally, I always found it strange that the US was somehow supposed to be responsible for peace in the Middle East. There's a very simple reason why even when we try and negotiate a settlement it doesn't work: People want land to live on. Israelis and Palestinians both want the sme area and that's the oldest and most common reason to have war. There really is no "right" or "wrong" side to this, these people have been killing each other since before most of us were born, heck, you could even say it dates back to Biblical times. But somehow Obama's going to fix this? You know why he's silent right now? Because he probably knows, although he may never admit it, that he can't broker lasting piece over there. The people--not just the leadership, but the people--of both countries (well, whatever Palestine is) want each others land and hate each other for the constant acts of bombing/terrorism. Obama's going to go over there, give a nice speech, and fix everything? As much hope as he talks in his speeches Obama's a realist. If that situation is ever "resolved" it will probably be over a massive Palestinian grave. And that would be tragic, but when two peoples want the same land, that tends to be the "solution." Look right here at what happened to the Indians.

[oldschool]

israel's aggression towards the palestinians, is the day we will move toward a more lasting peace.

Funny, I think that hamas calling off their "we aim to destroy israel and we will keep this stance up even if it lasts forever, accomplishes nothing and actually hurts our own people" insanity, and the constant attacks on israel that draw out responses like what we saw a few days ago would help bring us towards a more lasting peace, but irrational people often don't like to hear that.

[InspiredLebowski]

I'm completely ignorant of this subject, so condemn/ignore me if you wish. But is "everlasting peace" even something remotely attainable in the region? I should really educate myself on this, but the history is what amounts to an entire degree's worth of studies and it almost seems futile to me.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The problem goes back to how the creation of Israel happened, really. After WWII the European powers felt bad about the shoddy treatment of Jews over the centuries, as well as the atrocities of the Holocaust, so they decided to create a Jewish homeland. The problem, obviously, is that there were already people living where they set it up. So the Palestinians were, of course, mad as hell, while the poor Israelis were just trying to live. IMO they should have created the new homeland in Germany, as they were the biggest culprits when it comes to Jewish persecution...whatever though.

[LJJ]

The US should just stop trying to lead the world. No country is completely free of hypocrisy and influence of other parties.

That is why the UN is such a good thing. The UN should have real power. USA needs to start conforming to UN agreements. No country should have veto's, especially when you can veto nearly unanimous decisions.

[oldschool]

"Palestinians" used to be Muslims, Jews and Christians.

But 80% of Palestine became Jordan, an Islamic country which banned Jews. This was in the early 1900's.

As for 2008, the problem will continue as long as the "we must destroy israel no matter how long it takes" stance of hamas and other extremists continues.

[InspiredLebowski]

So is the unabashed US support of Israel really as simple as the power the Jewish community has here?

[rufuspaul]

So is the unabashed US support of Israel really as simple as the power the Jewish community has here?

Not quite as simple as that. A lot of it dates back to the cold war. Isreal was a good ally to have against the Soviets.

[Sharas]

i already said my 2c on this...

no one disputes that hamas is a terrorist organization. they broke the truce and i don't think they really want good for their own people.

but israel's response is disproportionate and excessive to say the least, as it has been the case every time through the years.
if anyone else in the world did the similar thing, it would be labeled as the war crime. and rightfully so.

[gts]

but israel's response is disproportionate and excessive to say the least, as it has been the case every time through the years.
if anyone else in the world did the similar thing, it would be labeled as the war crime. and rightfully so.it's war, there is no such thing as a "disproportionate and excessive response" the object of any war from theboxing ring to the gaza strip is to crush your enemy, this is not a tit for tat engagement... if somebody launches rockets into civilian territories not even trying to hit military installations but aiming to kill innocents there is no such thing as an excessive response.

now if hamas only hit military posts then that's one thing but they don't hit those, they don't even try... they aim soley to kill israeli citizens, as a country israel has every right to do what ever it takes to protect it's people

[RainierBeachPoet]

We shouldn't even take sides. It's not our business so we just need to stay out of it.

the problem is if we didnt take sides, israel would be obliterated. we have to protect israel but we cannot condone anything and everything they do

[Hawker]

the problem is if we didnt take sides, israel would be obliterated. we have to protect israel but we cannot condone anything and everything they do

Israel being obliterated is a problem for the US how?

[RainierBeachPoet]

Obama will do what every American President does: Nothing. How can America criticize Israel for bombing Hamas when we overthrew the Iraqi government in retaliation to a bunch of Saudis launching 9/11? At least Israel is going after the actual culprits. Personally, I always found it strange that the US was somehow supposed to be responsible for peace in the Middle East. There's a very simple reason why even when we try and negotiate a settlement it doesn't work: People want land to live on. Israelis and Palestinians both want the sme area and that's the oldest and most common reason to have war. There really is no "right" or "wrong" side to this, these people have been killing each other since before most of us were born, heck, you could even say it dates back to Biblical times. But somehow Obama's going to fix this? You know why he's silent right now? Because he probably knows, although he may never admit it, that he can't broker lasting piece over there. The people--not just the leadership, but the people--of both countries (well, whatever Palestine is) want each others land and hate each other for the constant acts of bombing/terrorism. Obama's going to go over there, give a nice speech, and fix everything? As much hope as he talks in his speeches Obama's a realist. If that situation is ever "resolved" it will probably be over a massive Palestinian grave. And that would be tragic, but when two peoples want the same land, that tends to be the "solution." Look right here at what happened to the Indians.

i agree with this post

obama is primarily a pragmatist even more than being a realist (although ithe two do go hand in hand) and pro-israel. but being pro-israel doesnt mean you cant have influence behind the scenes. consistent with the "change" theme of his campaign and a different style of politics, israel is key in many of our foreign relations.

in order to regain our standing in the world, protecting the human rights of the palestinians would help regain the crediblity lost by the bush administration

but i am not holdnig my breath that obama can take the necessary steps in this direction-- or if there is even a political will to do so

[RainierBeachPoet]

Israel being obliterated is a problem for the US how?

it would be a problem for israel and would have repercussions around the world

to allow the obliteration of any country would be a universal tragedy

[embersyc]

As long as Isreal keeps firing missiles that say USA on the side of them, only criticizing them will not help. We have to stop funding their military as well.

[Jumpshot Virus]

We have no business in the middle-east, period. I don't care what we risk or lose monetarily or world peace wise. We shouldn't be there. the EU shouldn't be there. We want to act as if we're playing big brother keeping little brothers apart from ripping each other's heads off, but that's certainly not the case, and anyone with a worldly IQ greater than 60 knows that.

With or without the assets of the middle-east and their lands, the US could sustain itself easily by keeping our nose out of their business and taking care of our people at home first and foremost. Greedy elites see things differently, and could care less about what's in the actual best interest of our nation and other Western nations.

$ talks, and $ controls anything and everything, including you me and our own gawddamn government and it's ambitions to not only be "# 1" but we have to be phucking # 1 + 1 ... it's very phucking sad when you think about it.

[Thorpesaurous]

And this leads to why I still think the war in Iraq has some value. There are two solutions to the middle east conflict. One of them involves propping up a "democracy", that pushes the western ideals, philosophies, and culture to the point that the young Muslim street rises up. There are a huge chunk of Saudi youth that are obsessed with western culture. The other solution is to go to the Suadis and Egyptians and tell them to do as they please with Isreal and we won't step in, then watch how quickly the Muslim attitude toward us changes. Anyone who knows anything about our policy with Isreal over the past 60 years, and our financing methods can see why reason number two isn't going to happen anytime soon. I'm not naive enough to think that our current leadership played this out with that kind of forsight, but I do think it's a valid enough long term reason to not jump on everyone who is in support of the war. The far evangelical christian right also believs that the Jews have to occupy Isreal in order for the second coming to happen (not that I'm an expert on evangelical christianity), which may explain the neo-con's support more than anything with as much global forsight as I may be giving them credit for.

[Sharas]

it's war, there is no such thing as a "disproportionate and excessive response" the object of any war from theboxing ring to the gaza strip is to crush your enemy, this is not a tit for tat engagement... if somebody launches rockets into civilian territories not even trying to hit military installations but aiming to kill innocents there is no such thing as an excessive response.

now if hamas only hit military posts then that's one thing but they don't hit those, they don't even try... they aim soley to kill israeli citizens, as a country israel has every right to do what ever it takes to protect it's people

OK, that's just not true. there's a point where defense stops being defense and becomes just a revenge against the innocent. this is not the first time israel has crossed that line. how much collateral damage is too much? you can't simply disregard the lives of the innocents and stay on the right side, and that's exactly what israel does these days.

if anyone else in the world did the exact same thing israel did yesterday, the whole world would gang up on them and call them the war criminals, including the US.

[Jumpshot Virus]

And this leads to why I still think the war in Iraq has some value. There are two solutions to the middle east conflict. One of them involves propping up a "democracy", that pushes the western ideals, philosophies, and culture to the point that the young Muslim street rises up. There are a huge chunk of Saudi youth that are obsessed with western culture. The other solution is to go to the Suadis and Egyptians and tell them to do as they please with Isreal and we won't step in, then watch how quickly the Muslim attitude toward us changes. Anyone who knows anything about our policy with Isreal over the past 60 years, and our financing methods can see why reason number two isn't going to happen anytime soon. I'm not naive enough to think that our current leadership played this out with that kind of forsight, but I do think it's a valid enough long term reason to not jump on everyone who is in support of the war. The far evangelical christian right also believs that the Jews have to occupy Isreal in order for the second coming to happen (not that I'm an expert on evangelical christianity), which may explain the neo-con's support more than anything with as much global forsight as I may be giving them credit for.

Good post.

All the political powers of the world need to simply go back to the drawing board and start over from ground zero. I know this is easier said than done, but the world as a whole, and most notably Western and Middle-Eastern nations need to change their worldly philosphies and outlooks on their futures if we all wish to coexist down the road. Otherwise, WWIII will happen, and unfortunately it will probably be the last world war.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

[RainierBeachPoet]

As long as Isreal keeps firing missiles that say USA on the side of them, only criticizing them will not help. We have to stop funding their military as well.

that would be a good next step if we ever have to balls to even criticize them publicly

unfortunately, the selling of military hardware is a large part of our usa economy...

[RainierBeachPoet]

And this leads to why I still think the war in Iraq has some value. There are two solutions to the middle east conflict. One of them involves propping up a "democracy", that pushes the western ideals, philosophies, and culture to the point that the young Muslim street rises up. There are a huge chunk of Saudi youth that are obsessed with western culture. The other solution is to go to the Suadis and Egyptians and tell them to do as they please with Isreal and we won't step in, then watch how quickly the Muslim attitude toward us changes. Anyone who knows anything about our policy with Isreal over the past 60 years, and our financing methods can see why reason number two isn't going to happen anytime soon. I'm not naive enough to think that our current leadership played this out with that kind of forsight, but I do think it's a valid enough long term reason to not jump on everyone who is in support of the war. The far evangelical christian right also believs that the Jews have to occupy Isreal in order for the second coming to happen (not that I'm an expert on evangelical christianity), which may explain the neo-con's support more than anything with as much global forsight as I may be giving them credit for.

i am not exactly sure what you mean by-- letting the saudis and egypt do what they want with israel

we didnt even confront the saudi's when we knew that the majority of the 9-11 terrorists were saudi. we are too beholden to their oil. there is no motivating force that would make them cooperate with israel. over the years, egypt has been good with their peace accord and they might be able to do something

but either way, it is hard to imagine that they would befriend israel in meaningful ways when it might damage their own standnig in the muslim world

regarding the FAR far right and fringe churches that believe in the support of israel for these questionable theological reasons of the second coming (plus the neo-cons support)-- this is an argument for diminishing our support for israel!

[YAWN]

Like i said in another thread im not too keen on the situation, but from what i have read..

If Hamas, who is a known terror organization, has come out and said we want to kill any and everyone that is associated with israel. They then proceed to blindly fires rockets into the southern part of israel; purposely from public areas that are known to have many civilians around. Israel is not allowed to go after the organization that has been doing this for years?

If some terror organization in tijuana mexico decided to fire a single rocket into san diego, would we not go after the person who did it?

[Showtime]

it would be a problem for israel and would have repercussions around the world

to allow the obliteration of any country would be a universal tragedy
You do know genocide and other civil wars have been virtually ignored by the major powers over the past decades, right? Oh, but nobody cares about them because it's not near Jerusalem.

[wTFaMonkey]

one word:

Isreals lobby group ---> AIPAC

[wTFaMonkey]

the problem is if we didnt take sides, israel would be obliterated. we have to protect israel but we cannot condone anything and everything they do

I don't understand how Isreal would be "obliterated".

they have thousands of nukes. Does Iran have even 1? No one would touch Isreal.

[Hawker]

it would be a problem for israel and would have repercussions around the world

to allow the obliteration of any country would be a universal tragedy

Doubtful. It's not like Israel doesnt have nukes and an army. Plus, there are already countries that have been/are obliterated already.

The US government needs to keep their filthy hands out of Israel's business. If we keep doing so, involvement in Iraq will be forever.

[wTFaMonkey]

Doubtful. It's not like Israel doesnt have nukes and an army. Plus, there are already countries that have been/are obliterated already.

The US government needs to keep their filthy hands out of Israel's business. If we keep doing so, involvement in Iraq will be forever.

It's never going to stop. As long as we allow lobbies such as AIPAC to exist. there will be US involvement with the middleast.

[bada bing]

Never mind.

bada bing (you piece of garbage scumbag), feel free to edit your garbage response back in here

[oldschool]

It's never going to stop. As long as we allow lobbies such as AIPAC to exist. there will be US involvement with the middleast.

There's US involvement in half the planet, in case you haven't noticed.

[oldschool]

If hamas, islamic jihad and other insane lunatics stopped attacking Israel and called off the whole insane, pointless, self-defeating, "destroy Israel" movement, none of any of this would have to happen.

[Thorpesaurous]

i am not exactly sure what you mean by-- letting the saudis and egypt do what they want with israel

we didnt even confront the saudi's when we knew that the majority of the 9-11 terrorists were saudi. we are too beholden to their oil. there is no motivating force that would make them cooperate with israel. over the years, egypt has been good with their peace accord and they might be able to do something

but either way, it is hard to imagine that they would befriend israel in meaningful ways when it might damage their own standnig in the muslim world

regarding the FAR far right and fringe churches that believe in the support of israel for these questionable theological reasons of the second coming (plus the neo-cons support)-- this is an argument for diminishing our support for israel!

I don't think I was clear. When I say let the Saudi's and Egypt do as they want with Isreal, I mean allow them to attack it, not sit back and let them work out a treaty. I know full well that's not happening. Egypt has been fairly nuetral over the years, but because of it's sandwiching position, it would immediately take a huge role in any Arab move on Isreal. My point is that that just isn't going to happen, so pushing to set up another democratic regime, theoretically in Iraq, is the next logical solution.

My point about the far right's, particularly the far christian right's support of Isreal for what I fully agree are at best questionable theological reasons, is not that this is reason to pull support of Isreal. Only that I think there is justification in the war. Namely that if we're not going to leave Isreal to the Wolves, then the next best option is to set up another democracy. And while I don't believe that's the far right's motivation, more that their motive is to keep the chosen people in the holy land, the resulting democracy in the middle east remains the next most valid solution to the toppling of the current dictatorial leadership all over the region.

Even that doesn't read as well as I'd like it to. Hopefully it makes sense.

[dnyk1337]

I already posted more than enough in the Gaza thread that was closed, but I'll say it again that both parties are more than to be blamed for everything. Israel is just as bad as the Hamas.

[RainierBeachPoet]

I already posted more than enough in the Gaza thread that was closed, but I'll say it again that both parties are more than to be blamed for everything. Israel is just as bad as the Hamas.


i started this thread because that thread was closed-- who closed it and why?

[bada bing]

i started this thread because that thread was closed-- who closed it and why?

just look at my post which was edited by a special someone and you will get the answers to all your questions. Its on this page...

[RainierBeachPoet]

You do know genocide and other civil wars have been virtually ignored by the major powers over the past decades, right? Oh, but nobody cares about them because it's not near Jerusalem.

yes

this is problematic too

at least from the usa perspective: if it is for our country's interests we act-- if not, then we do not. this kind of unilateral decision making weakens the world organizations such as the UN

we use the UN when it is to our advantage too. this is a problem for our credibility also

[RainierBeachPoet]

I don't understand how Isreal would be "obliterated".

they have thousands of nukes. Does Iran have even 1? No one would touch Isreal.

i wrote that in hyperbole to make a point: israel is a key place in the world. being surrounded by islamic countries with a history of anti-israeli sentiment, things could escalate very quickly if israel didnt have powerful allies

[rufuspaul]

i started this thread because that thread was closed-- who closed it and why?

Hmmm... I don't think that's too hard to deduce.

[RainierBeachPoet]

I already posted more than enough in the Gaza thread that was closed, but I'll say it again that both parties are more than to be blamed for everything. Israel is just as bad as the Hamas.

obviously, hamas' actions escalate the conflict

the problematic difference is that hamas primarily works its bombings through the underground since palestine is not really is not given its recogition and proper respect

while israel is acting as a state in its military operations

[RainierBeachPoet]

Basically the only one cursing and calling names in those threads was OldSchool. Who closed the threads for that reason probably.

yes

it the shoe fits.... obamacize it

[oldschool]

Israel is just as bad as the Hamas.

Retarded.

[loot]

This conflict has been dragging on for about 3800 years.

The first casualty of war is innocence. Or truth. Or both.

[oldschool]

palestine is not really is not given its recogition and proper respect

80% of Palestine became Jordan less than 100 years ago. That's the closest thing to a "Palestine" there is.

[dnyk1337]

What the hell happened to all the previous posts? Come on now Steve. I'm not that familiar with you (or Jeff), but I can say that deleting all the posts isn't justified. Nobody has even said anything offensive, or against the forum rules. So far I've only seen the most intelligent posters respond to this thread.


Retarded.

How is it retarded? I don't know whether you're Jewish or not (I'm assuming so), but you should know very well that this all started because of the tug-of-war over the land.

[rufuspaul]

I think I hear the death rattles of this thread.

[oldschool]

How is it retarded?

Are you able to tell the difference between:

(1) A country under constant attack from its neighbors so that country tries to get rid of an extremist group that has vowed to destroy Israel no matter how long it takes, but unfortunately that extremist group controls the entire civilian population of gaza and uses the entire place as a launching pad to try to attack Israel. Israel has two choices, sit and just get attacked every day (which is fine with just about everyone in the world) and do nothing, or attack the group doing it, but unfortunately the group that is doing it is mixed right in with civilians.

(2) A crazy ultra-fundamentalist extremist group who INTENTIONALLY targets innocent civilians and thinks it's an honor to blow up if it means innocent civilians blow up with you and have vowed to attack Israel forever and have devoted their lives to wiping that country out no matter how long it takes, even if it means harming their own people in the process. They were very good at hitting israel with terrorist attacks in the early 2000's until israel put a defensive barrier up, so now all they do each day is fire missiles into israeli towns hoping to hit random civilians. If innocent israelis die, it makes hamas happy. And if innocent palestinians die, it also makes hamas happy, since they are happy to sacrifice themselves if it means israelis dying, or if it means newspaper articles writing reports about civilians dying.

[oldschool]

israel's aggression towards the palestinians, is the day we will move toward a more lasting peace.

If you want a "lasting peace" tell the unreasonable, illogical, crazy extremists who control the palestinians that their never-ending war on israel's very existence accomplishes absolutely nothing and is insane. When they end it, israel can happily make peace with them just like israel did with egypt and jordan when those two countries called their war off.

[rufuspaul]

The whole situation reminds me of fights we used to get into in elementary school. The teacher would try and find out what it was about and both kids would yell "he started it!" What the region needs is for someone with enough muscle to step in and say "I don't care who started it, it has to stop."

Of course those fights didn't result in innocent children getting burned and mutilated.

[Rasheed1]

why are soo many posts getting deleted in these threads? WTF? the threads are getting smaller and I dont get a chance to read everyone's input....

[oldschool]

What the region needs is for someone with enough muscle to step in and say "I don't care who started it, it has to stop."

What the region needs is for the illogical, unreasonable, nutty, self-defeating, palestinian extremists who rule the palestinian population to somehow become sane and do what jordan and egypt did a few decades ago, which was to permanently call off the "destroy israel no matter how long it takes" stuff, agree to a permanent peace, and permanently stop any and all attacks on israel. When those countries permanently stopped attacking israel and agreed to a permanent peace, the result was 100% peace between israel and jordan, and israel and egypt.

[rufuspaul]

What the region needs is for the illogical, unreasonable, nutty, self-defeating, palestinian extremists who rule the palestinian population to somehow become sane and do what jordan and egypt did a few decades ago, which was to permanently call off the "destroy israel no matter how long it takes" stuff, agree to a permanent peace, and permanently stop any and all attacks on israel. When those countries permanently stopped attacking israel and agreed to a permanent peace, the result was 100% peace between israel and jordan, and israel and egypt.

That may be true but you're comparing sovereign countries with a territory that is split, both geographically and politicaly, and is surrounded and controlled by the country it is in conflict with.

[oldschool]

That may be true but you're comparing sovereign countries with a territory that is split, both geographically and politicaly, and is surrounded and controlled by the country it is in conflict with.

Yeah, I realize that peace is easier to come by between actual established countries, but the general idea is the same. Those countries literally swore to destroy Israel and refused to stop. Once they "officially" stopped and changed that stance and agreed to a permanent peace, Israel was more than happy to honor it, and they have, and those countries have had peace for years now and should continue it forever.

If actual reasonable, logical, realistic people led the palestinians they'd negotiate something similar and get most (not all, but the vast majority of) what they want (unless what they want continues to be the destruction of part or all of israel). But crazy lunatics who have unrealistic dreams of massacring Israel off the face of the earth lead the palestinians, so nothing is going to change anytime soon.

[Sharas]

since it was deleted by certain someone:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860

the text is just awesome, and it's by a fellow jew. of course, it exposes the israel's wrongdoings and therefore doesn't suit oldschool's agenda...and therefore is censored.

this one is even better:

http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/251

[oldschool]

Sharas is one of those people who always takes the most anti-Israel stance possible, so it's typical that the content he shares is the most anti-Israel stuff he can find that can be credited to a person who claims to be Israeli/Jewish.

Side note: Lots of rabid anti-Israel nutcases enjoy claiming to be Jewish/Israeli when they really aren't so readers give them extra leverage as they share their views. Not saying everyone does that, but some certainly do.

[Rasheed1]

since it was deleted by certain someone:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860

the text is just awesome, and it's by a fellow jew. of course, it exposes the israel's wrongdoings and therefore doesn't suit oldschool's agenda...and therefore is censored.

this one is even better:

http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/251

that first article was actually very powerful..... good looks sharas. I'll read the 2nd one later

[Sharas]

bother to actually say what's false or wrong with stuff written there instead of deleting the post and giving random labels?

[oldschool]

bother to actually say

With you? What's the point? If I did, you'd just dig up more anti-Israel blogs entries other random guys wrote. If Israel blew up tomorrow you'd have an orgasm. I've already expressed my views on the bottom-line issues regarding this topic, on the previous page.

[oldschool]

that first article was actually very powerful..... good looks sharas. I'll read the 2nd one later

Let me know if you ever read or are moved by any articles from palestinians which suggest that maybe the constant war and terrorism against Israel isn't working out too well, and they're sick of being on the side of insane terrorists whose attacking of Israel accomplishes little more than getting nasty responses.

I bet you either won't be moved by such an article, or won't actually find any such articles that actually exist.

[Rasheed1]

Let me know if you ever read or are moved by any articles from palestinians which suggest that maybe the constant war and terrorism against Israel isn't working out too well, and they're sick of being on the side of insane terrorists whose attacking of Israel accomplishes little more than getting nasty responses.

I bet you either won't be moved by such an article, or won't actually find any such articles that actually exist.


I havent seen any :confusedshrug: maybe you could post those since you brought it up.....

I would be glad to read those also....

[dnyk1337]

since it was deleted by certain someone:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860

the text is just awesome, and it's by a fellow jew. of course, it exposes the israel's wrongdoings and therefore doesn't suit oldschool's agenda...and therefore is censored.

this one is even better:

http://www.realisticdove.org/archives/251

Well, that basically sums it all up. Talk about owned. Sorry, you can ban everyone and delete everything here, but you can't say anything that can counter this Steve. It's over... You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Sharas]

again, what's exactly wrong or false in these articles?
it's easy to say "i won't discuss it with you".

it isn't a coincidence that state of israel tells the one story and the rest of world tells the other.

you'll again repeat the same lines over and over, "ideally, there would be 0 civilian casualties", "they're just aiming for hamas extremists and military buildings", yet, purely coincidentally, gaza was bombed at the time when children return from schools?

[Rasheed1]

other posters I think are aware of what is going on (as far as post being deleted and the mod generally acting out of control)..

but its only a message board and if the people who run the board wont bother to correct the problem, then I guess it cant be corrected...

sorry people cant just express their views without others acting irrationally and deleting their posts and banning them

[oldschool]

I havent seen any

Of course you haven't. I haven't either. I think it's quite telling that on the palestinian side there don't seem to be any loud voices coming from anywhere which suggest that maybe supporting an insane fundamentalist terrorist regime which has sworn to destroy Israel and continues to just launch daily attacks no matter what is what's dragging the palestinians down and making it impossible for Israel to deal with with them.

[oldschool]

Well, that basically sums it all up. Talk about owned.

I love how you didn't respond to my actual full post earlier about this topic. I bet your brain was literally unable to come up with a proper anti-israel argument, so you had to just skip over it and see what someone else had to come up with.

[gts]

again, what's exactly wrong or false in these articles?
it's easy to say "i won't discuss it with you".

it isn't a coincidence that state of israel tells the one story and the rest of world tells the other.

you'll again repeat the same lines over and over, "ideally, there would be 0 civilian casualties", "they're just aiming for hamas extremists and military buildings", yet, purely coincidentally, gaza was bombed at the time when children return from schools?did you read the rest of the "Chilean Jew's" posts? in his blog?

i love this gem


After some months participating in this community it has been astonishing to realize how dysfunctional can intelligent, progressive and informed individuals be when discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. To the point where one of the issues that has most urgency of tolerant and profound debate is avoided by most Kossaks in order to stay away from the argumentative pandemonium.

[dnyk1337]

I love how you didn't respond to my actual full post earlier about this topic. I bet your brain was literally unable to come up with a proper anti-israel argument, so you had to just skip over it and see what someone else had to come up with.

What is there to respond to? You're recycling your earlier posts again and again because you can't comprehend the fact that Israel is an evil country. :lol

I already wrote everything I felt in the other thread that you closed. I have nothing more to really add and I don't want to recycle my own posts.

[Rasheed1]

Of course you haven't. I haven't either. I think it's quite telling that on the palestinian side there don't seem to be any loud voices coming from anywhere which suggest that maybe supporting an insane fundamentalist terrorist regime which has sworn to destroy Israel and continues to just launch daily attacks no matter what is what's dragging the palestinians down and making it impossible for Israel to deal with with them.


I agree... it is very telling indeed......

maybe nobody on that side sees Hamas in that light :confusedshrug:

[oldschool]

yet, purely coincidentally, gaza was bombed at the time when children return from schools?

you're a dishonest sack of **** and a biased, anti-israel scumbag. You continue to suggest that israel actually intentionally targets random everyday innocent palestinians, when meanwhile at least 250 of the 300 killed were hamas members, and possibly more since the UN tends to count random guys helping hamas who aren't actually in hamas as "civilians."

[bada bing]

This is just ridiculous. Why is this guy so sensitive when it comes to engaging in discussion about Israel? When people post an opinion he goes onto curse them and call them names and then makes threads about them. The only moron who is breaking any rules on this site is this moderator. Where is Jeff in all of this? Why has he allowed such behavior on a constant basis? Pretty much oldschool has been schooled around here and he has no replies except to call people names or edit and delete their posts.

[oldschool]

What is there to respond to?


Are you able to tell the difference between:

(1) A country under constant attack from its neighbors so that country tries to get rid of an extremist group that has vowed to destroy Israel no matter how long it takes, but unfortunately that extremist group controls the entire civilian population of gaza and uses the entire place as a launching pad to try to attack Israel. Israel has two choices, sit and just get attacked every day (which is fine with just about everyone in the world) and do nothing, or attack the group doing it, but unfortunately the group that is doing it is mixed right in with civilians.

(2) A crazy ultra-fundamentalist extremist group who INTENTIONALLY targets innocent civilians and thinks it's an honor to blow up if it means innocent civilians blow up with you and have vowed to attack Israel forever and have devoted their lives to wiping that country out no matter how long it takes, even if it means harming their own people in the process. They were very good at hitting israel with terrorist attacks in the early 2000's until israel put a defensive barrier up, so now all they do each day is fire missiles into israeli towns hoping to hit random civilians. If innocent israelis die, it makes hamas happy. And if innocent palestinians die, it also makes hamas happy, since they are happy to sacrifice themselves if it means israelis dying, or if it means newspaper articles writing reports about civilians dying.

[Sharas]

did you read the rest of the "Chilean Jew's" posts? in his blog?

i did gave a look at the first next page. it looks like writer is generally anti-war to me.

[oldschool]

I agree... it is very telling indeed......

maybe nobody on that side sees Hamas in that light :confusedshrug:

I think it says a lot that barely anyone on the palestinian side seems to see anything wrong with waging constant attacks on israel, calling for israel's destruction, trying to sneak into israel to blow up schoolbuses and restaurants, and acting like crazy lunatics who spend each day trying to fire rockets into israeli towns hoping to hit random people

[Sharas]

you're a dishonest sack of **** and a biased, anti-israel scumbag. You continue to suggest that israel actually intentionally targets random everyday innocent palestinians, when meanwhile at least 250 of the 300 killed were hamas members, and possibly more since the UN tends to count random guys helping hamas who aren't actually in hamas as "civilians."

so if you want to avoid civilian casualties, you bomb the settlements at 11.30 am?

you know that you're wrong. that's why you bother so much.

[oldschool]

so if you want to avoid civilian casualties, you bomb the settlements at 11.30 am?

What hours of the day, then, should israel attack hamas?

If they did it in the morning, you'd say they were trying get people as they were going to work or school. If they did it in the afternoon you'd say they were trying to get people as they were taking an afternoon walk or leaving school. If they did it in the evening you'd say they were trying to get people who were out having fun. If they did it at night you'd say they were chickens trying to get people while they sleep.

The majority of people killed were hamas members. This obviously proves that the target is hamas.

[bada bing]

I think it says a lot that barely anyone on the palestinian side seems to see anything wrong with waging constant attacks on israel, calling for israel's destruction, trying to sneak into israel to blow up schoolbuses and restaurants, and acting like crazy lunatics who spend each day trying to fire rockets into israeli towns hoping to hit random people

riiiight. Israel is not killing random people right? The children that were bombed and killed and their bloody faces shown were hamas members right? Israel isn't sneaking into palestinian lands to attack the palestinians right? And school buses, restaurants, mosques and schools aren't being blown up right now right? Israel hasn't waged a constant war with the palestinians right?

[oldschool]

riiiight. Israel is not killing random people right?

250 of 300 killed were hamas. That suggests that israel is targeting hamas, not random people.

[Rasheed1]

I think it says a lot that barely anyone on the palestinian side seems to see anything wrong with waging constant attacks on israel, calling for israel's destruction, trying to sneak into israel to blow up schoolbuses and restaurants, and acting like crazy lunatics who spend each day trying to fire rockets into israeli towns hoping to hit random people


being occupied will do that to a people :confusedshrug:

the one thing that is obvious is that guns and bombs will not solve this conflict....

there has to be a better way than this

[Sharas]

What hours of the day, then, should israel attack hamas?

If they did it in the morning, you'd say they were trying get people as they were going to work or school. If they did it in the afternoon you'd say they were trying to get people as they were taking an afternoon walk or leaving school. If they did it in the evening you'd say they were trying to get people who were out having fun. If they did it at night you'd say they were chickens trying to get people while they sleep.

I love how 250 of 300 people killed were hamas, yet you, being a dishonest, anti-israel liar, continue claim that israel was targeting schoolchildren

yeah, the fact that children return from school at roughly that time is purely coincidental. silly me.

if they really wanted to avoid civilian casualties they'd do it at night when people aren't in the streets. it's actually the standard procedure when you really, honestly want to avoid civilian casualties.

[gts]

As long as the hamas hides like cowards among the civilian population civilians will be killed... it's the palastinians fault as much as anyones for allowing them (hamas) to use public places as launching pads for their attacks

[oldschool]

yeah, the fact that children return from school at roughly that time is purely coincidental. silly me.

You are an idiot. So a country cannot attack a terrorist organization at 11:30am because that's some special time for children or something?

You continue to claim that israel targets civilians. Yet the vast majority of people killed were hamas members, and the vast majority of buildings attacked were hamas buildings. So your claim has no merit, and only a dishonest, biased person would make it.

[oldschool]

if they really wanted to avoid civilian casualties they'd do it at night when people aren't in the streets.

At night, when it's DARK OUTSIDE? When you're flying a plane, the smart time to attack a terrorist organization is when you can barely see because it's dark outside?

[rufuspaul]

The majority of sorties flown prior to the invasion of Iraq were at night.

[Rasheed1]

At night, when it's DARK OUTSIDE? When you're flying a plane, the smart time to attack a terrorist organization is when you can barely see because it's dark outside?


use some of those 'high precision' smart bombs that we sold them... Israel is constantly bragging about the accuracy of their fire power... :confusedshrug: they are a really sloppy group to be killing so many innocent people with weapons that are supposedly soo accurate

[Sharas]

At night, when it's DARK OUTSIDE? When you're flying a plane, the smart time to attack a terrorist organization is when you can barely see because it's dark outside?

you obviously know absolutely nothing about military. i remember when NATO bombed the military buildings around my surrounded hometown, they did it at 5 am. and they were successful too, modern weapons are all guided anyways. that's the standard procedure when you HONESTLY want to reduce the collateral damage.

[oldschool]

that's the standard procedure when you HONESTLY want to reduce the collateral damage.

hamas members are probably not in hamas buildings at 5am

Israel trying to kill hamas members

At 5am hamas members are probably at home sleeping with their families in the house. So that's when Israel should attack them?

I'd love to hear you explain that one.

[oldschool]

And, just so you know, even if you disagree with me on some things, you are allowed to agree when I make an obviously reasonable point.

[Rasheed1]

there is usually some intelligence to guide the way in any military operation....

Israel should have good enough intelligence on their hamas targets to avoid killing so many innocents..

if they dont and they are just indiscriminately bombing, well then that is just reckless

[Sharas]

i don't have anything to explain. it's obvious to the whole non-zionist world that israel didn't do what it took to minimize the collateral damage. it's obvious that they don't care about the innocents dead. they may not aim for them as a primary goal...but they don't seem to bother much when they die either.

[oldschool]

f they dont and they are just indiscriminately bombing, well then that is just reckless

They aren't just indiscriminatly bombing. Around 250 of 300 people killed were hamas members. That shows they're targeting hamas. The average person walking around the street is not a hamas member. They are also hitting hamas buildings.

And it's quite possible that some of those non-members were working with hamas or borderline hamas but are being called "civilian" by the UN.

[oldschool]

they may not aim for them as a primary goal

Correct.

It should not be that hard to state the obvious. Israel is targeting terrorists. But the terrorists aren't all in one giant building that says "all the terrorists are here" on top of it.

[oldschool]

i don't have anything to explain.

Yes, you do.

Explain why you say israel should attack hamas at 5am.

At 5am hamas members are home sleeping with their families.

So you want israel to attack the houses when the families are inside and when it's dark outside?

Instead of attacking hamas during the workday when they are mostly separated from their families?

Explain. Go.

[gts]

i don't have anything to explain. it's obvious to the whole non-zionist world that israel didn't do what it took to minimize the collateral damage. it's obvious that they don't care about the innocents dead. they may not aim for them as a primary goal...but they don't seem to bother much when they die either.does hamas care who they target?
no they use weapons that they have zero control over, they just point shoot and run, why is it israeli's job to worry about who is targeted yet hamas gets a free ride in your book to target anything on the other side of the fence? where's your outrage that hamas has done nothing to limit civilian deaths?
where's your outrage when a hamas suicide bomber parks his car next to a busload of civilians and pushes the button?
where's your outrage that hamas uses public rooftops to launch rockets from. with the full knowledge that that site will become a target for israeli warplanes?

[Sharas]

Yes, you do.

Explain why you say israel should attack hamas at 5am.

At 5am hamas members are home sleeping with their families.

So you want israel to attack the houses when the families are inside and when it's dark outside?

Instead of attacking hamas during the workday when they are mostly separated from their families?

Explain. Go.

wouldn't it be so much simpler to actually target the missile launching infrastructure instead of police stations, radio stations and universities?

[oldschool]

wouldn't it be so much simpler to actually target the missile launching infrastructure


As has been said about 9 billion times, the missles aren't launched from some separate battlefield area. They're launched from random towns and random civilian-filled locations.

You still haven't answered my question.

[Sharas]

does hamas care who they target?
no they use weapons that they have zero control over, they just point shoot and run, why is it israeli's job to worry about who is targeted yet hamas gets a free ride in your book to target anything on the other side of the fence? where's your outrage that hamas has done nothing to limit civilian deaths?
where's your outrage when a hamas suicide bomber parks his car next to a busload of civilians and pushes the button?
where's your outrage that hamas uses public rooftops to launch rockets from. with the full knowledge that that site will become a target for israeli warplanes?

that's BS. i always call hamas actions with its real name - terrorism and war crime.

but thing is, when israel commits atrocities against civilians, on a much greater scale than hamas does, then it's called self-defense and fight against the terrorism.

double criteria much?

[Rasheed1]

why is it israeli's job to worry about who is targeted yet hamas gets a free ride in your book to target anything on the other side of the fence?


Its not... but israel want to be looked at as 'the good guys'

the good guys care about those things gts

[oldschool]

but thing is, when israel commits atrocities against civilians

It doesn't benefit israel to harm a single civilian. All that results from that is making other civilians angry, it makes newspapers write bad articles, and it gives ammo to dishonest, biased, anti-israel people to exaggerate with.

It DOES benefit hamas if israel tries to kill hamas but accidently kills a civilian instead, because then newspapers get to write articles how civilians got killed and it makes israel look bad. Hamas.

You still failed to explain to me what hours of the day you feel israel should attack hamas.

You're allowed to admit when you're wrong, you know. It's ok to do. Your friends will still think you're cool if you point out that israel is trying to kill insane terrorist organization members, is mostly successful at it but still needs to try to be more careful in regard to civilians

[Sharas]

As has been said about 9 billion times, the missles aren't launched from some separate battlefield area. They're launched from random towns and random civilian-filled locations.

You still haven't answered my question.

what is there to answer?

if you honestly want to avoid civilian victims - you attack at night. it's that simple.
and anyways, do you honestly believe 200 or 250 dead hamas policemen will seriously impair its capacity to lob rockets at israel?
no it won't. it doesn't help anything. it isn't even a temporary solution. it's just a mindless revenge which kills the innocents indiscriminately.

[oldschool]

what is there to answer?

if you honestly want to avoid civilian victims - you attack at night. it's that simple.


So Israel should attack hamas members at night when hamas members are home with their families?

That would result in a LOT more civilian casualties. Most of the families would die, too.

So, explain that one, please.

I say they shoudl attack hamas during the day, because that way more hamas members will be with other hamas members, while their families are elsewhere like in school or at work or at home.

What do you say?

Again, a reminder, you're allowed to agree with me when it's obvious I'm right. Girls will still like you.

[gts]

that's BS. i always call hamas actions with its real name - terrorism and war crime.

but thing is, when israel commits atrocities against civilians, on a much greater scale than hamas does, then it's called self-defense and fight against the terrorism.

double criteria much?like i said earlier, it's a war, it's not meant to be fair... it's not some tit for tat deal where there's rules that govern response, the object is to defeat the enemy...
it's a war it's not civilized it's not supposed to be...

time and time again you avoid the very fact that the attacks are being launched from civilian posts, the police stations, private homes, the schools are all places the terrorist use to shield themselves, knowing full well that the world will be "outraged" to find that a police station or some neighborhood was targeted by israeli warplanes...

[oldschool]

it's just a mindless revenge which kills the innocents indiscriminately.

Like some sort of robot, you continue to say this, when it's not true.

Palestinian militants/terrorists in the gaza strip continue to shoot rockets into Israeli towns. So Israel is stomping hamas down. They are not killing "indiscriminately" or else most people dying would be random people, not hamas members. But most people who are getting hit are hamas members, proving israel is targeting hamas, and not "killing indiscriminately." Israel is not attacking the west bank right now, because terrorists from the west bank are not lobbing rockets into israel. Terrorists from the gaza strip are doing it. So Israel is attacking them.

[Rasheed1]

like i said earlier, it's a war, it's not meant to be fair... it's not some tit for tat deal where there's rules that govern response, the object is to defeat the enemy...
it's a war it's not civilized it's not supposed to be...

time and time again you avoid the very fact that the attacks are being launched from civilian posts, the police stations, private homes, the schools are all places the terrorist use to shield themselves, knowing full well that the world will be "outraged" to find that a police station or some neighborhood was targeted by israeli warplanes...


on one hand you say war is not fair, but you turn around and say hamas should be engaging in combat in a certain way... :confusedshrug: cant have it both ways..

israel can wage any kind of war they please.... but then so can hamas...

and the world at large has the right to view their actions accordingly

[gts]

Its not... but israel want to be looked at as 'the good guys'

the good guys care about those things gtsi think israel could care less how the world sees them... to be honest, i think their first goal is to be left alone, and worry about how the world views them comes a distant second

[Sharas]

Ibut still needs to try to be more careful in regard to civilians

bingo. that's the whole point i'm trying to make. congrats. why was it so hard?

if you want to remain the "good guys", you try to avoid the civilian victims at any cost. which israel right now just doesn't do. they obviously don't give a f*ck.
they commit the attacks, fully knowing they won't solve anything or stop hamas from attacking them even temporarily, and also fully knowing civilians will die.

if anyone else does that, it's a war crime and i bet you're the first one to call for UN intervention or something.

[Rasheed1]

i think israel could care less how the world sees them... to be honest, i think their first goal is to be left alone, and worry about how the world views them comes a distant second


after watching them on TV trying to spin the situation into their favor (just like they did in lebanon)

I disagree...

I think Israel cares very much about how they are viewed in the world..

if they didnt, they wouldnt spend so much time trying to explain it....

[LJJ]

The only reason Israel exists is because of help from the outside world, so of course they care how they are viewed.

[gts]

on one hand you say war is not fair, but you turn around and say hamas should be engaging in combat in a certain way... :confusedshrug: cant have it both ways..

israel can wage any kind of war they please.... but then so can hamas...

and the world at large has the right to view their actions accordingly i never said hamas should engage war in a certain way..i just don't think anyone should be complaing about certain after effects when they (hamas) decides to engage israel in the way they do, if you launch a rocket from the top of a police station, don't whine and cry that the police station was targeted in a response...

as for the war is not fair..i was responding to the point that israel's response is seen as too big a response for what hamas did, it seems there is a view that if hamas launces one rocket israel should only launch one back...lol which is assinine... it's a war if somebody launches 10 rockets it's exceptable to launch 100 back, it may not be fair, but it's a war, its not supposed to be a balanced response, the object is to win...

[oldschool]

if you want to remain the "good guys", you try to avoid the civilian victims at any cost.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to attack a terrorist organization that is mixed in with civilians and not have some civilian casualties.

You have made constant dishonest claims that israel targets schoolchildren, that israel intentionally tries to bomb when children might be outside, etc.

And when I ask you to explain it, you can't, as has happened in the past few pages here.

Tell me again why you feel israel should attack hamas at 5am when hamas members are asleep with wives next to them and children nearby in their homes?

That would result in MORE civilian casualties.

Earlier you accused israel of WANTING civilians to die because they attacked during the day. Do you take that back?

It's ok to admit when you're wrong. Your parents will still love you.

[Sharas]

again:


they commit the attacks, fully knowing they won't solve anything or stop hamas from attacking them even temporarily, and also fully knowing civilians will die.

if anyone else in the world does the exact same thing - you're the first one to call for their heads. and you know it.

[oldschool]

Sharas literally won't answer the questions.

ok

well, peace and stuff

[Sharas]

they commit the attacks, fully knowing they won't solve anything or stop hamas from attacking them even temporarily, and also fully knowing civilians will die.

all criteria that consist the premeditated war crime are right there. but it's israel, so we'll choose to call it "collateral damage" and "self-defense".

israel doesn't target the school children primarily. but they don't try to avoid them dying either.

[oldschool]

all criteria that consist the premeditated war crime are right there.

So any attack where civilians have even a slight chance of dying is a war crime?

Every attack in the history of the planet is a war crime, then.

You're goofy.

[Rasheed1]

i never said hamas should engage war in a certain way..i just don't think anyone should be complaing about certain after effects when they (hamas) decides to engage israel in the way they do, if you launch a rocket from the top of a police station, don't whine and cry that the police station was targeted in a response...



I dont see hamas complaining.. Me as a person on the sideline is complaining because my interest is that innocents not get killed....

honestly I think that tactic is to hamas advantage because it keeps israel looking like the downpressive occupier that Im sure hamas wants them to be seen as... :confusedshrug:

and as I said... Israeli officials looked pretty concerned about their image around the world. cant kill innocent people and still be the 'good guys'

[oldschool]

israel doesn't target the school children primarily. but they don't try to avoid them dying either.

250 of 300 people killed being hamas members suggests israel went out of their way to target hamas members.

Tell em again why you say israel should attack hamas at 5am when hamas members are at home with their wife and kids right around them.

I think it makes sense to attack them during the day when they're probably separated from their families while the wife is at work or at home and the kids are probably away at school.

Anyone who isn't insane would probably agree with me.

Feel free to agree. It's ok. Your little brother will still look up to you.

[oldschool]

Israeli officials looked pretty concerned about their image around the world. cant kill innocent people and still be the 'good guys'

That's why the terrorists who attack israel try to surround themselves with civilians, launch rockets from civilian areas, and back when they were able to sneak into israel a bit easier they used to target civilians and blow suicide bombers up in restaurants and on buses.

Palestinian extremists WANT israel to accidently kill innocent civilians. It makes for good anti-israel propaganda.

It's a lose-lose situation. If Israel does nothing, they'll be attacked daily for the next million years. If Israel attacks terrorists, most of the terrorists are hanging out with other people too, not just terrorists.

But israel TRIES to only target the terrorist organization members. Frankly it's actually amazing they managed to get 250 out of 300, considering most of them are mixed in with other people.

[loot]

Sharas literally won't answer the questions.


You of all people should not talk about others not wanting to answer questions. :ohwell:

Getting back at that bombing by night = dumb stuff, most bombings and raids are by night. You're saying it like the guys up there in their planes need to use their daylight vision to bomb. :oldlol:

Anyway, the last few pages have only been the same posts repeated over and over. Clearly some guys only want to see things their way. Their side is the only right side and anyone who doesnt agree is an 'idiot'.

[Brunch@Five]

didn't read every post, just my 2 cents:

Israel has been wrong shutting off the Gaza strip the last few years, hurting the people more than the Hamas

Israel is right in bombing and possibly invading the Gaza strip because of the Hamas continouus attacks on Israeli grounds. It's basically self-defense. Every country has the right to do this. If the palestine people doesn't want to be invaded, it should overthrow their inhuman Hamas regime. Unfortunately patriotism/nationalism/religious fanaticism will never probably allow this.

[oldschool]

Getting back at that bombing by night = dumb stuff, most bombings and raids are by night.


So Israel should bomb hamas members while the hamas members are at home in the same house as their wives and children?

But that would create more dead innocent civilians, yes?

So, explain.

[loot]

So Israel should bomb hamas members while the hamas members are at home in the same house as their wives and children?

But that would create more dead innocent civilians, yes?

So, explain.

You edited half the posts and deleted the other half. Sucks but you can't look up a thing like that. I'd gladly quote you laughing at the idea of bombing by night because the bombers wouldnt see what they were doing.

Either way, you're the last guy in here who should ask for eplanations and post things like "Explain. Go."

Like I said, this conflict has been going on for 3800 years and never was there anyone who could rightfully claim to be doing the right thing. Not at any point in history. Still these morons continue to b blow each other up because they are getting blow up by each other. And here you are defending one side's actions instead of condemning both. :oldlol:

You're a dishonest sack of **** and a biased, pro-israel scumbag. How's that for reasoning and discussing this subject?

[oldschool]

Hah. Loot can't answer, either.

Funny stuff

[loot]

Hah. Loot can't answer, either.

Funny stuff


You want me to tell you when it's the best time to bomb guys you don't like? How about never? If you actaully would NOT delete threads for once you could've see I've been saying that all along. Matter of fact you want me to tell you the best time to bomb people while I CLEARLY stated I'm against it? Wow... talk about ignoring stuff.

And now YOU of all people are laughing because I "Can't" answer? How about you answer my questions first, without banning me every time you feel insecure about your actions? Really?

[oldschool]

You want me to tell you when it's the best time to bomb guys you don't like? How about never?

That's very cute. Try moving to planet earth someday, where countries sometimes have to defend themselves from crazy terrorists who use entire cities as launching pads for attacks.

[oldschool]

Getting back at that bombing by night = dumb stuff, most bombings and raids are by night.


So Israel should bomb hamas members while the hamas members are at home in the same house as their wives and children?

But that would create more dead innocent civilians, yes?

So, explain.

[oldschool]

Matter of fact you want me to tell you the best time to bomb people while I CLEARLY stated I'm against it?


Terrific! Tell that to hamas and palestinian extremists. Thanks.

Or do you only mention that in anti-israel discussions and keep quiet the rest of the time?

[loot]

So Israel should bomb hamas members while the hamas members are at home in the same house as their wives and children?

But that would create more dead innocent civilians, yes?

So, explain.

Talk about cute. Ignoring clear answers? How about you first answer my earlier questions, dishonest sack of **** and biased, pro-israel scumbag?


You ask for the best time to bomb people, whilke your mind is too dense too see I'm providing the very solution at hand. Stop bombing. Still you want me to think like you and the idiots in the middle east who haven't gotten a clue in close to 4000 years about it. I'm sorry to tell you but there are more dumb than smart people, and I'm not planning to start thinking like your kind anytime soon.

So yes, you got your answer, stop aggression. You're at one side pointing a finger and the guys at the other side are doing the same. As soon as someone on ish states he's not on your saide you'll say he's an idiot and supports terrorism.

You're probably the best example of why this is still such a big issue.

Will you be a true man and answer my questions too, or will you continue to behave like the ***** you are and click the 'ban' button as soon as you don't know how to explain your actions?

[oldschool]

It's cute how Loot only chimes into yell at Israel to "stop aggression"

But never comes out and urges the insane palestiniam militant groups to do it.

If israel wasn't being attacked, there'd be no need for "aggression."

Jordan stopped attacking israel, so israel doesn't provide "aggression."

Egypt stopped attacking israel, so israel doesn't provide "aggression."

Insane palestinian terrorists refuse to ever stop attacking israel, so there's "aggression"

[oldschool]

Talk about cute. Ignoring clear answers? How about you first answer my earlier questions, dishonest sack of **** and biased, pro-israel scumbag?

You're one of those bull****, fake-ass "peace supporters" who only chimes in about peace when something can be blamed on israel, but keeps 100 PERCENT QUIET when things are done against israel.

[loot]

Terrific! Tell that to hamas and palestinian extremists. Thanks.

Or do you only mention that in anti-israel discussions and keep quiet the rest of the time?


I've participated in two discussions on this issue. You were there both times, deleting both topics (I regard this topic as a continuation of the second). Yesterday I already discussed this issue at lengfth, but you decided to delete the topic for whatever reason (please give me a reason for deleting the topic by the way?) and banned me. Point out where the first was anti-Israel? Point out where I've been anti Israel here? Point out a Anti-Hamas topic on ish?

Also let me point out your thinking. "Anti-Israel" I bet you feel like I'm hating on you, and Israel by condemning these bobmings?

And you want me to tell the Israeli and Palestinian agressors to review their actions and realize it's not helping when this thread proves guys like you don't even understand it? :oldlol:

[oldschool]

IPoint out where the first was anti-Israel? Point out where I've been anti Israel here?

Who do you think you're fooling?

When people make dishonest, anti-israel claims, you never disagree with them or correct them, but always go out of your way to disagree with anyone correcting them.

I told sharas that it makes no sense for israel to attack hamas overnight, because that would cause more civilian casualties since they'd be home with their families. If they have a wife and 3 kids, then 5 people would die and only 1 would be a hamas members.

It makes sense to attack hamas during the day when chances are the kids are at school and the wife is either at work or at home or wherever.

Obviously that's logical.

Yet you chime in and go ahead and agree with him, becuase he's anti-israel, even if the point he's making is so ****ing retarded that no one in the world would agree with it.

[loot]

You're one of those bull****, fake-ass "peace supporters" who only chimes in about peace when something can be blamed on israel, but keeps 100 PERCENT QUIET when things are done against israel.

Yeah really. Maybe it's because you feel personally offended when it's about Israel and rarely pay any attention to other topics on ish.:oldlol: You're panicing and reaching. Really do you need to throw this on the old "He's not with me so he's against me, they did it too, he began, he needs punishment too, speak out on them too"? Sorry mate:

Hamas needs to stop their agression.

Feel better? I think stating it this clear is the only way you'll understan I've been speaking out against agression on a whole. Where did I single out Israel as the wrong side? You're reaaaaaching. Read back (as far as you didnt delete the posts) and realize I've been saying it all along, there's no right and wrong here and the bombings won't help anything. It will only escalate the issue and make kids (like you) violence is the only way to go. Youre thinking is clouded and one-sided. Someone speaks out against violence and you feel attacked? :roll:










Still you haven't answered my questions. Untill you actually do, I feel no need to pay any attention to this dishonest sack of **** and a biased, pro-israel scumbag.

[oldschool]

Hamas needs to stop their agression.


It takes 50 posts of arguing to ever get you to reluctantly say this.

But any post that defends israel, you instantly chime in and side with the anti-israel person.

[loot]

When people make dishonest, anti-israel claims, you never disagree with them or correct them, but always go out of your way to disagree with anyone correcting them.

Quote me.

[oldschool]

Untill you actually do, I feel no need to pay any attention to this dishonest sack of **** and a biased, pro-israel scumbag.

**** off and die, scumbag

[oldschool]

Quote me.

Every time this topic has ever been discussed. Why are you bull****ting? Who the **** do you think you're fooling?

[rufuspaul]

wow, such a high level of discourse.

[loot]

Every time this topic has ever been discussed. Why are you bull****ting? Who the **** do you think you're fooling?

No really quote me. You said I did it so much / every time. Quote me where I did it.

And stop saying people need to **** off and die. Stop calling names when you don't want others to do that.


If you feel like you're truely right here, don't delete posts here, don't edit, don't close the topic, don't ban me...just go back and quote me.

[oldschool]

wow, such a high level of discourse.

We had pages and pages of legit discussion until Loot felt a need to bust in and continue his garbage with me.

[oldschool]

No really quote me. You said I did it so much / every time. Quote me where I did it.



Quote where you always take the anti-israel side? YOu want me to now sit and click around spending time searching? (There's no search feature on this site).

You're now pretending that every time this discussion pops up you don't chime in and speak against any point I ever make that defends israel in any way, at all, ever?

What a waste of time you are. Stupid fake-ass "peace supporter" who only picks the times to chime in about "stopping aggression" when it's against israel.

[loot]

It takes 50 posts of arguing for me to get this.

True

[oldschool]

And stop saying people need to **** off and die. Stop calling names when you don't want others to do that.


I mostly stopped. And had page and pages of legit discussion, but here you are again.

[oldschool]

True


Yeah. because you're a fake-ass "peace supporter" who feels no need to tell crazy islamic terrorists to stop their aggression unless it's literally pulled out of you.


Sharas is RABIDLY anti-israel, made points that were so illogical he couldn't even defend his own opinion, so naturally who busts in to try to help him by explaining the "bombing at night" thing? Loot.

[loot]

Quote where you always take the anti-israel side? YOu want me to now sit and click around spending time searching? (There's no search feature on this site).

You're now pretending that every time this discussion pops up you don't chime in and speak against any point I ever make that defends israel in any way, at all, ever?

What a waste of time you are. Stupid fake-ass "peace supporter" who only picks the times to chime in about "stopping aggression" when it's against israel.

You accuse me of something. Better yet, you acccuse me of something and base your whole discussion/post on it.

I have always learned you need to be able to back up what you claim, so there...just show me qhere I did it. You asked other posters in here to back up their claims too, why shouldn't you?

[oldschool]

You asked other posters in here to back up their claims too, why shouldn't you?

I ask people to explain their own opinions, and one by one the anti-israel people couldn't even do it.

You're not even talking about the topic anymore. You're just here to argue with me specifically. Which is why I'm not wasting time. If you want me to explain an actual OPINION ON THE SUBJECT OF THIS ACTUAL DISCUSSION, I will.

If you have some discussion point about the israel-gaza stuff, then make it, otherwise **** off

[loot]

I ask people to explain their own opinions, and one by one the anti-israel people couldn't even do it.

You're not even talking about the topic anymore. You're just here to argue with me specifically.


Nope. You said I was anti-Israel in here. Matter of facts you stated I was anti-Israel all the time. I'm asking you to show & prove.

I don't see how that makes me someone who want to argue with you specifically? All I ask from you is to finally do what you expect others to do. Show and prove.

[LJJ]

If you have some discussion point about the israel-gaza stuff, then make it, otherwise **** off

You don't get it, we have already done that.

And everyone agrees both sides are to blame and are committing crimes, except you.

[oldschool]

Getting back at that bombing by night = dumb stuff, most bombings and raids are by night. You're saying it like the guys up there in their planes need to use their daylight vision to bomb.


Sharas was claiming israel should bomb at night.

But, at night, hamas members are probably at home with their wives and children.

So, bombing them at night would result in way more civilian casualtiies.

That's why I suggest israel is correct in doing it during the day, when hamas may be together or at least away from their families.

If you feel I'm wrong, explain why, please. Thanks!

[oldschool]

Loot:

If you have some discussion point about the israel-gaza stuff, then make it, otherwise **** off

[loot]

You're trying to duck the question. Smart move, but I'm not buying.


Quote me where I was anti-israel. You used that in your discussion.

[oldschool]

Loot is turning out to be a troll.

[loot]

Loot is turning out to be a troll.

No, I'm having a discussion and I expect people keep true to what's being said instead of making things up. I'm not the one:

- making things up
- misusing rights
- calling names
- cursing
- ignoring serious questions

All points above point to someone trolling. You are ducking a legit question. I clearly said how I felt about the Israel situation and you ignore it, instead you gave this topic the direction of "you're against israel because you didnt speak out against hamas", ignoreing everything else....? :confusedshrug:

[oldschool]

No, I'm having a discussion


You're not having a discussion. You're not talking about the actual topic. You haven't even made any point on the topic that needs to be addressed. You just said "stop the aggression." Great. Well, if both sides permaentnly stopped all aggression that would be wonderful.

You're just talking about me, and trying to argue with me. You're a troll.

[loot]

I've participated in two discussions on this issue. You were there both times, deleting both topics (I regard this topic as a continuation of the second). Yesterday I already discussed this issue at lengfth, but you decided to delete the topic for whatever reason (please give me a reason for deleting the topic by the way?) and banned me. Point out where the first was anti-Israel? Point out where I've been anti Israel here? Point out a Anti-Hamas topic on ish?

Also let me point out your thinking. "Anti-Israel" I bet you feel like I'm hating on you, and Israel by condemning these bobmings?

And you want me to tell the Israeli and Palestinian agressors to review their actions and realize it's not helping when this thread proves guys like you don't even understand it? :oldlol:


Then why ignore points like this and instead say I'm being anti-Israel? If I'm such a troll why did my ban get lifted? Because you know you do not have anything to ban me for. I'm contributing to this very discussion by pointing out there is no way you can back up bombing people if you're looking for a peaceful solution, and that these morons havent been able to graps that idea for thousands of years. And basically you're just showing you're one of them by ignoring what I said and instead focussing on me having to state "Hamas is wrong too". That's the boneheaded, onesided, narrowminded type of thinkign which is exactly the reason this is still a lingering issue.

But hey, I guess I should go to Israel and tell it on the mountain. That's what people usually say when you come up with the right ideas.

If you're so smart why don't you go and tell them? In the meantime, we'll continue to bomb each other, while we know this ain't helping either. It just gives me satisfaction, having this retribution.

[oldschool]

I'm contributing to this very discussion by pointing out there is no way you can back up bombing people if you're looking for a peaceful solution


ok so as hamas and extremist groups continue to fire rockets into israel, what should israel do, if attacking hamas isn't the answer?

[loot]

ok so as hamas and extremist groups continue to fire rockets into israel, what should israel do, if attacking hamas isn't the answer?


Bomb them and their families!

[oldschool]

Bomb them and their families!

What stupid sarcasm you have. Sharas is the one who said israel was wrong for attacking during the day. But attacking at night WOULD result in the families being harmed. As someone who does NOT want families harmed, I said I support it happening during the day, when the terrorist nutjobs are away from their families.

Can you give a serious answer? Or are you just a troll?

as hamas and extremist groups continue to fire rockets into israel, as they have done for several years nonstop, even after israel initially left gaza, what should israel do?

[loot]

What stupid sarcasm you have. Sharas is the one who said israel was wrong for attacking during the day. But attacking at night WOULD result in the families being harmed.



as hamas and extremist groups continue to fire rockets into israel, as they have done for several years nonstop, even after israel initially left gaza, what should israel do?

Israel is one of the countries with the most money, most modern war equipment, best trained special forces, superb national and international inteligences etc etc. There is no need, like Sharas ( I think, I can't look it up or back that up) pointed out, for them to have so many victims of collateral damage.

- it only helps Hamas. They want this to happen so more people will hate Israel in said areas.
- it's not aiding Israel internationally since more and more countries are having second thoughts about supporting Israel in the future like they did in the past.

Israel doesn't help Gaza at all. Hamas doesnt help Israel nor Palestines. But if you think answering terror with terror you're clearly not thinking like I do. Peacetalks have been more fruitful, only if the pacts only lasted 4 hours or 1 hour, than any bombing ever was.

Fact is neither side is willing to help the other side, and as long as they are not thinking properly you can't expect me to help think about ways to make hurting the opponents 'better'.

[oldschool]

Again, you fail to tell me how Israel should be responding to daily rocket attacks.

Of course peace talks and peace is the answer. No ****.

But hamas want israel destroyed. They have trouble sneaking in to israel to blow up restaurants with suicide bombers these days because israel put a barrier up, but they are launching rockets into israel, day after day, basically for years, even after israel made the initial gesture of leaving gaza altogether (which resulted only in the worst extremists in the whole palestinian area taking the entire place over).

Peace talks with insane fundamentalist islamic extremists who have sworn to destroy Israel haven't turned out to be very helpful. Which isn't surprising. And countries generally don't like having peace talks with terrorist organizations who have sworn to destroy that country.

[loot]

Again, you fail to tell me how Israel should be responding to daily rocket attacks.

Of course peace talks and peace is the answer. No ****.

But hamas want israel destroyed. They have trouble sneaking in to israel to blow up restaurants with suicide bombers these days because israel put a barrier up, but they are launching rockets into israel, day after day, basically for years, even after israel made the initial gesture of leaving gaza altogether (which resulted only in the worst extremists in the whole palestinian area taking the entire place over).

Peace talks with insane fundamentalist islamic extremists who have sworn to destroy Israel haven't turned out to be very helpful. Which isn't surprising. And countries generally don't like having peace talks with terrorist organizations who have sworn to destroy that country.

So yeah bombing them is the solution. The agressive state of mind. Typical American/Religious.

[oldschool]

It's like telling India that they should have had peace talks with the terrorists in Mumbai who spent days trying to murder all the innocent people they could, and telling india that they were wrong in harming those terrorists.

Yeah, peace talks are great, but if your opponent is an organization that wants to wipe your country out and spend each day trying to kill you, sometimes you have to defend yourself and get rid of the lunatics trying to kill you.

[loot]

It's like telling India that they should have had peace talks with the terrorists in Mumbai who spent days trying to murder all the innocent people they could, and telling india that they were wrong in harming those terrorists.

Yeah, peace talks are great, but if your opponent is an organization that wants to wipe your country out and spend each day trying to kill you, sometimes you have to defend yourself and get rid of the lunatics trying to kill you.

You see any similarities between how India reacted and how Israel reacts? Do you see any similarities between what India did in the past and what Israel did? I don't see how Pakistand and Gaza can be compared?

[oldschool]

So yeah bombing them is the solution. The agressive state of mind. Typical American/Religious.


You still fail to tell me how Israel should respond to daily rocket attacks into Israel.

[oldschool]

You see any similarities between how India reacted and how Israel reacts?

Obviously the situations are different, but one similarity between the two is that insane terrorists like to come into india and into israel to try to kill as many people as possible, and both sides try to kill those terrorists when possible.

[oldschool]

I'm bored.

[loot]

You still fail to tell me how Israel should respond to daily rocket attacks into Israel.

Peace talks with killers who don't want peace with Israel but want Israel removed from existence? Are those even really "peace" talks?

Agression is usually answered with agression. We all know one of the most popular lines in most religions about cheeks and slapping. We also know how agression answered with agression ends.

And starts. Read back and you'll know exactly my opinion on this issue. You fail to do so and your one sided view on this matter prevents you from understanding what I've been saying all along.


The past few days you've proven yourself to be an agressor as well. I can see why you can't understand how bombing will not solve the problem.

[loot]

Obviously the situations are different, but one similarity between the two is that insane terrorists like to come into india and into israel to try to kill as many people as possible, and both sides try to kill those terrorists when possible.
And after that? Did India go out and bomb Pakistan?

[oldschool]

The past few days you've proven yourself to be an agressor as well. I can see why you can't understand how bombing will not solve the problem.


For the billionth time, how should Israel respond as daily rockets are being fired into Israel by a terrorist organization that has sworn to destroy Israel and controls the entire gaza strip?

[oldschool]

And after that? Did India go out and bomb Pakistan?

No, because it wasn't Pakistan's government doing it. It wasn't from Pakistan, either. It was people who came right into india to do it. If rockets kept coming each day from pakistan into india, that would be diffferent.

But Hamas ARE in the palestinian government and represent them as a people thanks to popular majority election results

[oldschool]

This is boring. I think I'm done.

[oldschool]

The past few days you've proven yourself to be an agressor as well.


I support the right of Israel and other countries to defend their people from terrorist organizations and anyone else.

Peace talks are great. But if your opponent are crazy radical psychopaths whose only idea of "peace" is wiping Israel or another country off the planet, you have to take action.

[loot]

This is boring. I think I'm done.

I think you are. Seeing as you cannot put aside the agressive thinking. See when agression (you, yesterday and today) is answered with thoughtfull answers and questions it gets boring and you stop being so damn agressive.


Point proven again.

[oldschool]

I think you are. Seeing as you cannot put aside the agressive thinking. See when agression (you, yesterday and today) is answered with thoughtfull answers and questions it gets boring and you stop being so damn agressive.

You are an idiot. You haven't answered my question, which is the entire main point of the whole discussion.

What should Israel do as rockets fly into Israel from gaza each day, launched by people who have sworn to destroy Israel, and their form of "peace" is removing Israel from existence, not actual peace with Israel?

The rockets didn't just start. They've been coming day after day for years. Sitting and not taking action didn't seem to work. So what should Israel be doing right now?

Israel talks constantly, and has had a million peace talks. It resulted in peace with jordan, with egypt, truces with some others, etc. But hamas just wants israel removed from existence, and rockets from the gaza strip fly into israel every day.

[gb8]

The answer to peace may have something to do with the occupied territory.

[Sharas]

it all comes to this: israel doesn't give a f*ck about civilians. they know very well they won't really prevent hamas from attacking further. they know they'll kill civilians. and they bomb regardless. they don't even try to deny it in their media outlets. they just try to avoid that question altogether.

if some muslim country does the same thing, people like oldschool are the first ones to ask for the invasion.

the whole world, except the zionists, rated the attack as excessive and unnecessary to say the least. they must all be anti-israel and terrorist supporters, i guess.
but thing is, they don't intend to stop:


Richard Falk - the UN special rapporteur for human rights in the Palestinian territories - said the international community must put more pressure on Israel to end its assault.

"Israel is committing a shocking series of atrocities by using modern weaponry against a defenceless population - attacking a population that has been enduring a severe blockade for many months," Mr Falk said in a BBC interview.

But Israeli officials said there was more to come.

The Israeli military "has made preparations for long weeks of action", deputy defence minister Matan Vilnai said.

sorry, that course of action speaks much louder than words. it speaks much more about israel's intentions than oldschool's weasel phrase "they don't intentionally target civilians". well - they don't either give a f*ck if children die. that course of action doesn't exactly convince me that israel sees the civil victims as unfortunate consequence. more like a welcomed consequence.

this quote from daily telegraph about sums up my views on this. palestinians are guilty for this too. but israel's response is just unacceptable, no other way to put it


Yet the scale of the response exposes Israel to international criticism. Almost 300 Palestinians have been killed in the last two days alone. By contrast, rockets fired from Gaza have killed 17 Israeli civilians in the last seven years.

Since Israel completed its withdrawal from Gaza in September 2005, about 150 Palestinians have been killed by its security forces in the territory for every dead Israeli civilian. Faced with this astonishing ratio, Israel's government will find it extremely hard to argue that its response has been proportionate.

[oldschool]

The answer to peace may have something to do with the occupied territory.

Israel removed every jewish person from gaza a few years ago, so the fundamentalists there could have their 100% islamic society

Did gaza do anything in return, to continue a path to peace? No. They just stepped up their attacks on israel, launched daily rocket attacks, and hamas continued to make it clear they just care about wiping israel out

[loot]

You are an idiot. You haven't answered my question, which is the entire main point of the whole discussion.

What should Israel do as rockets fly into Israel from gaza each day, launched by people who have sworn to destroy Israel, and their form of "peace" is removing Israel from existence, not actual peace with Israel?

The rockets didn't just start. They've been coming day after day for years. Sitting and not taking action didn't seem to work. So what should Israel be doing right now?

Israel talks constantly, and has had a million peace talks. It resulted in peace with jordan, with egypt, truces with some others, etc. But hamas just wants israel removed from existence, and rockets from the gaza strip fly into israel every day.

I actually answered that very question. But since it did not include any of these:

- bombing
- agressive
- kill
- raid


You probably ignored it, because it was not the answer you were looking for. Which is a shame. Lost mind. Enjoy being bored, maybe you can go and play cowboy and indian with your neighbour.

I'm pretty much done here, you asked for answers, got them and never understood them.

I asked for answers and you never gave them. Too bad you're such a wuss.

Good night.

[oldschool]

it all comes to this: israel doesn't give a f*ck about civilians.

If Israel didn't care about civilians, a much higher percenatage of deaths in the attack would be civilian deaths.

But 250 of 300 deaths were hamas members, which proves they are specifically trying to hit hamas.

You're just nutty.

[oldschool]

I actually answered that very question. But since it did not include any of these:

- bombing
- agressive
- kill
- raid

Hey loser, I've asked you 50 times now, and you won't answer. Tell me what Israel should be doing as their country is under constant rocket attack.

[oldschool]

I'm pretty much done here, you asked for answers, got them and never understood them.


I asked you how Israel should respond to daily rocket attacks from the gaza strip that have been coming fairly steadily for years and have hugely increased in number over the last week to the point where around 250,000 israelis spend their day in bomb shelters or hiding hoping to not get hit.

You failed to answer.

[loot]

I asked you how Israel should respond to daily rocket attacks from the gaza strip.

You failed to answer.


You're so blinded by rage you needed two replies to show how blind you are for the truth. Read back before acting a fool again.

[gb8]

Israel removed every jewish person from gaza a few years ago, so the fundamentalists there could have their 100% islamic society

Did gaza do anything in return, to continue a path to peace? No. They just stepped up their attacks on israel, launched daily rocket attacks, and hamas continued to make it clear they just care about wiping israel out]

The reality is the army still occupies and forcibly governs the area, as evident by all the check points set up which make movement in the area almost impossible for civilians. That combined with army sanctioned curfews destruction of infrastructure like power heating and health and education the occupation is very real despite the moving of Jewish settlers. I have been to Israel and loved the place the people and I completely condemn the stupidity of religious zealots that want the destruction of the nation. But to act like Israel is merely defending itself when in fact it is the aggressor occupier of foreign land is disingenuous.

[oldschool]

I don't support aggression, unless it's necessary and in the spirit of a country defending its people.

I support the right of Israel and any other country to take action when rockets are flying into its country each day or as terrorists spend their time trying to sneak in to blow innocent people up in restaurants and hotels.

[oldschool]

You're so blinded by rage you needed two replies to show how blind you are for the truth. Read back before acting a fool again.

You are an idiotic troll.

What should israel do as rockets are launched into their country from the gaza strip?

[oldschool]

]

The reality is the army still occupies and forcibly governs the area, as evident by all the check points set up which make movement in the area almost impossible for civilians.


False. Israel has no checkpoints in gaza anywhere anymore, except on the border. Egypt controls the gaza borders near egypt.

[loot]

You are an idiotic troll.

What should israel do as rockets are launched into their country from the gaza strip?

You keep asking the same question which I already answered. Probably twice or more by now. You can keep saying I'm a troll but you never come up with anything to back it up. So go ahead.


One thing I wanted to ask.

About 12 months ago there was a topic about Israel/Gaza too, you closed it and deleted it. I'll have access to the computer where I saved it tomorrow. Wouldn't it be intersting if I posted the thread, so we could compare these threads? Maybe see if you advenced in any sort of way, if the situation has changed, and opinions maybe?

Thoughts?

[oldschool]

You keep asking the same question which I already answered. Probably twice or more by now.


Where? All I say you do is make some general all-purpose statement that says peace talks are the answer.

Peace talks are great, but every day now, rockets are flying into Israel. Who should israel have peace talks with, the rockets as they fly in? Hamas doesn't want actual peace or peace talks with israel. They've sworn to destroy Israel no matter how long it takes. So you didn't really answer the question. What exact things should Israel do as rockets fly into Israel? Hamas has already answered any form of peace talk conversation with their never-changing stance that israel should be wiped off the map.

[gb8]

False. Israel has no checkpoints in gaza anywhere anymore, except on the border. Egypt controls the gaza borders near egypt.

74 % of the main routes in the West Bank are controlled by checkpoints or blocked entirely.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/local/cache-vignettes/L8xH11/puce-68c92.gif In September 2008 there were 699 closure obstacles in the West Bank
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/local/cache-vignettes/L8xH11/puce-68c92.gif Approximately 130 of these have been added since the Annapolis Conference in November 2007.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/local/cache-vignettes/L8xH11/puce-68c92.gif 630 of the obstacles have been identified as follows: trenches (3%), partial checkpoints (3%), earth walls (7%), ro*******s (11%), road barriers (12%), checkpoints (12%), road gates (16%) and earth mounds (36%).
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/local/cache-vignettes/L8xH11/puce-68c92.gif From April to September 2008 the weekly average of flying checkpoints was 89.

False?

[loot]

False. Israel has no checkpoints in gaza anywhere anymore, except on the border. Egypt controls the gaza borders near egypt.

Egypts controls it?

You say it like this never happened:

Reuters AlertNet - "Israel bombs Egypt-Gaza border tunnels"



and

"Israeli helicopters fired warning shots to prevent people from crossing the border, the army said."


I'm not sure what you meant by 'controlling' the border?

[oldschool]

About 12 months ago there was a topic about Israel/Gaza too, you closed it and deleted it. I'll have access to the computer where I saved it tomorrow.


You seem to have some sort of mental illness which compels you to save and repost things. Something is wrong with you.

[oldschool]

74 % of the main routes in the West Bank are controlled by checkpoints or blocked entirely.

Uh, yes, that's the west bank.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE GAZA STRIP, not the west bank. Hello? Israel left the gaza strip, and forced every jewish person to leave, so the islamic radicals there could be happy and have it 100% islamic. There are no checkpoints from israel in gaza at all. They were removed a few years ago, but rather than making a peace move back towards israel, gaza started firing daily rockets into israel

[oldschool]

Egypts controls it?


Yes, idiot. Egypt controls the border between egypt and the gaza strip.

[loot]

You seem to have some sort of mental illness which compels you to save and repost things. Something is wrong with you.

Why the personal attack AGAIN? I asked a normal question and I expected a normal answer. You have failed to do so, I'll remember that.

[oldschool]

I'll remember that.

that's fascinating, troll.

[Sharas]

well, i guess UN special reported for palestine is a troll also. or antisemite. or a terrorist supporter.

he thinks israel's attack as extremely excessive, so he must fit under one of those categories.

[loot]

Yes, idiot. Egypt controls the border between egypt and the gaza strip.

Again the insult and personal attack. Please go and read the ISH user guidelines in the mainforum.

Egypt officially controls the borders. If the examples I posted don't prove you Israel controls those borders as well I don't know what to tell you. If Egypt controls the borders, and Israel goes out and attacks those borders, Israel still isnt at fault? Either Israel also controls them, or it's an act of terrorism.

[gb8]

Uh, yes, that's the west bank.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE GAZA STRIP, not the west bank. Hello? Israel left the gaza strip, and forced every jewish person to leave, so the islamic radicals there could be happy and have it 100% islamic. There are no checkpoints from israel in gaza at all. They were removed a few years ago, but rather than making a peace move back towards israel, gaza started firing daily rockets into israel

lol Its pointless discussing this with you. If you cannot see the link between making life hell for civilians in west bank having an effect on the amount of attacks from Gaza then you are simpler then I thought. The fact is that Israel is the aggressor in this conflict. It is all well and good saying we are only killing in self defense but when it is plain to see for anyone that Israel is the aggressor, that stance loses credibility with anyone with an ounce of intelligence regardless of the millions in PR that the Israeli govt spends. There would be nothing better to have a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine but to act like there are not forces on both sides which clearly dont want peace for whatever reason is naive.

[oldschool]

well, i guess UN special reported for palestine is a troll also. or antisemite. or a terrorist supporter.

he thinks israel's attack as extremely excessive, so he must fit under one of those categories.

Tell me why you say Israel should attack hamas at night instaed of during the day.

at night hamas members are probably in their houses with wives and children around.

Attacking hamas at night would result in way MORE civilian deaths.

During the day, hamas militants are probably separated from their families since their wives are probably working, or at home, and their kids are at school.

So, explain yourself.

[oldschool]

well, i guess UN special reported for palestine

well, he's "for palestine." He exists for the sole purpose of being on the palestinians side and reporting what he doesn't like.

[oldschool]

lol Its pointless discussing this with you.

You stated something that is false. Don't bet upset if you state false things and are corrected.

Israel does not have checkpoints in gaza.

They do in the west bank.

But gaza and the west bank are fairly different right now. The Palestinian authority controls the west bank. Hamas controls gaza.

The west bank is not launching rockets into israel. The gaza strip is.

Those are all facts. Don't get angry because I corrected a false statement.

[oldschool]

forces on both sides which clearly dont want peace for whatever reason is naive.

israel's main goal is peace, and if that means having to defend their country from terrorist organizations, so be it. israel isn't fighting with anyone who isn't attacking israel.

hamas' main goal is to wipe israel out from existence. A retarded, unrealistic goal which does nothing but make life worse for both sides

[Sharas]

He exists for the sole purpose of being on the palestinians side and reporting what he doesn't like.

that's bull$it. that's not worth responding to. aren't you the huge opponent of conspiracy theories...when they don't suit your agenda?

[oldschool]

that's bull$it. that's not worth responding to. aren't you the huge opponent of conspiracy theories...when they don't suit your agenda?

Uh, his job title is: UN special rapporteur for palestine.

"For Palestine."

His whole job is to watch palestinian areas and complain about what he doesn't like.

Of course, 80% of "Palestine" became Jordan less than 100 years ago. But of course they aren't referring to THAT Palestine. Just the part Israeli Jews control.

[Sharas]

Tell me why you say Israel should attack hamas at night instaed of during the day.

at night hamas members are probably in their houses with wives and children around.

Attacking hamas at night would result in way MORE civilian deaths.

During the day, hamas militants are probably separated from their families since their wives are probably working, or at home, and their kids are at school.

So, explain yourself.

because that's the standard procedure when you honestly want to take out just the military buildings.

your statement about civil and military buildings being interchangeable can be true for small arms and ground forces.
but NOT for long range missile launchers which should supposedly be the main goal and concern. one simply can't put those in the civilian quarters. that's physically impossible. that's pure nonsense on your part.

[Sharas]

Uh, his job title is: UN special rapporteur for palestine.

"For Palestine."

His whole job is to watch palestinian areas and complain about what he doesn't like.

Of course, 80% of "Palestine" became Jordan less than 100 years ago. But of course they aren't referring to THAT Palestine. Just the part Israeli Jews control.

and that means exactly what? that his opinion doesn't count?

he's probably either antisemite or terrorist supporter for thinking it's excessive to kill 300 people in return for one...as is the rest of the world, i guess.

[oldschool]

because that's the standard procedure when you honestly want to take out just the military buildings. .

Israel is trying to take out hamas members, and their military buildings. Not just their military buildings.

How can they take out hamas members by attacking at night, unless you feel they should attack them at home at night, while their wives and children are there.

If they want to get rid of hamas members, without also killing the wives and children, they have to attack them during the day, correct?

It says a lot about you that you just hurl every anti-israel accuation you can think to make, and one by one as each point was addressed in this thread, you either disappear, or refuse to answer the question, or twist it slightly.

[oldschool]

and that means exactly what? that his opinion doesn't count?


His job is to make complaints in favor of the palestinians. He's on their side. It's a built-in bias as required by the job.

[gts]

and that means exactly what? that his opinion doesn't count?

he's probably either antisemite or terrorist supporter for thinking it's excessive to kill 300 people in return for one...as is the rest of the world, i guess.is this the same Richard Falk that comapared Israel to Nazis? or has he been replaced?

[oldschool]

It's comical seeing people literally unable to explain their own opinions.

ok I have to go be productive now, bye

[Smokee]

WTF do you expect them to do? When Hamas or Palestinians somewhere are firing random Rockets into Israel?

It IS terrorism. The problem is there is no accountability since it could be anyone, but ultimately governments are held responsible for what goes on in their territory.

That is why they are being bombed. I don't blame Israel, they have to deter it by doing something extreme to prevent the other side from randomly firing mortars/rockets into their country.

This issue/war will never go away. They are too close to each other with way too much history of hate built up. Cease fires and peace will always be a temporary truce there.

Us, as in the U.S. are the counter balance to Iran, Syria, etc. supporting Palestine against Israel. They also support our intelligence against those countries, and i believe Israel has the top intelligence network in the world? :confusedshrug:

Anyways its definitely not as black and white as it being Israel's fault, our fault, or anyones fault exactly. It is what it is and has become. Too bad there is no clear cut solution, or likely ever will be :ohwell:

[Sharas]

Israel is trying to take out hamas members, and their military buildings. Not just their military buildings.

How can they take out hamas members by attacking at night, unless you feel they should attack them at home at night, while their wives and children are there.

If they want to get rid of hamas members, without also killing the wives and children, they have to attack them during the day, correct?

It says a lot about you that you just hurl every anti-israel accuation you can think to make, and one by one as each point was addressed in this thread, you either disappear, or refuse to answer the question, or twist it slightly.

what did they just achieve by killing 250 POLICE members and 60 civilians? nothing. absolutely nothing. they just committed a huge atrocity that won't help anyone, neither in short nor long run.

it would make infinitely more sense to target the military buildings for launching long range rockets, which are the main concern for israel safety. they have one of the best armies in the world along with one of the best intelligence services in the world. palestine's anti air defense is just about nonexistent right now. THEY COULD DO BETTER - IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO. but it's obvious to anyone who isn't a zionist that they don't.

and no, before you say it, launchers of long range missiles can't be planted in the middle of civilian buildings. that's physically impossible.

[oldschool]

it would make infinitely more sense to target the military buildings for launching long range rockets

The rockets are being launched from random areas in the gaza strip. Not from "military buildings."

[Smokee]

what did they just achieve by killing 250 POLICE members and 60 civilians? nothing. absolutely nothing. they just committed a huge atrocity that won't help anyone, neither in short nor long run.

it would make infinitely more sense to target the military buildings for launching long range rockets, which are the main concern for israel safety. they have one of the best armies in the world along with one of the best intelligence services in the world. palestine's anti air defense is just about nonexistent right now. THEY COULD DO BETTER - IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO. but it's obvious to anyone who isn't a zionist that they don't.

and no, before you say it, launchers of long range missiles can't be planted in the middle of civilian buildings. that's physically impossible.


i don't think they are exactly long range missiles considering they aren't far apart at all.

they've tried all kinds of ****. Like occupation, rolling tanks in, clearing out the strip area, etc. and if anything are just falling back on deterrence by extreme retaliation.

Even if its wrong, it does work to a degree. Whoevers firiing those things into Israel, especially if its Hamas, will think twice when the retaliation is 100x's more severe.

[Brunch@Five]

I don't doubt that Israel is trying to avoid killing civilians. When your enemy is hiding in civilian areas you can't avoid collateral damage though. If the Hamas doesn't want the palestine people to die, they should stop hiding amongst them.

Also, the Hamas are not firing long range missiles. They have a range of at most 15-20 miles. Are you not watching the news Sharas? They show the "launchers" every news here in Germany. They're tiny and can easily be planted in civilian areas. They aren't even planted at all, they're mobile I think.

[loot]

If the Hamas doesn't want the palestine people to die, they should stop hiding amongst them.

Exactly their goal and Israel doesnt care too much either. If Israel bombs them Hamas will get more support, thus reaching their goal.

[Brunch@Five]

Exactly their goal and Israel doesnt care too much either. If Israel bombs them Hamas will get more support, thus reaching their goal.

The Hamas are ultimately forcing Israel to do this though. At some point Israel has to care about their own people more than the palestine people. Unfortunately, this is what war means. At this point it's up to the Hamas to prevent this.
Israel surely could have helped way more to achieve peace in the past, but at this point? I dunno

[Sharas]

The rockets are being launched from random areas in the gaza strip. Not from "military buildings."

that's bull$hit again.

israel has a good enough army and intelligence to be able to take these out with much, much less casualties if they really wanted. they've got an awesome air force able to bomb these without any unnecessary casualties.

but they don't want to. it's that simple. they bomb police stations instead. they intentionally bombed the university of gaza. they intentionally bombed the interior ministry of palestine. they even bombed mosques.
what else to conclude from these facts?

[Smokee]

that's bull$hit again.

israel has a good enough army and intelligence to be able to take these out with much, much less casualties if they really wanted. they've got an awesome air force able to bomb these without any unnecessary casualties.

but they don't want to. it's that simple. they bomb police stations instead. they intentionally bombed the university of gaza. they intentionally bombed the interior ministry of palestine. they even bombed mosques.
what else to conclude from these facts?


air force bombs aren't exactly precise either, and those would be buildings possibly full of people as well. its really not as easy as you want to think. Its not even easy for us to bomb targets withotu civilian casualties and i'm pretty sure we're more technologlically advanced than Israel.

Only way to do what you think they can do is send ground forces in, which just creates way more Israel casualties in the process.

[Sharas]

it's not possible to totally eliminate the civil casualties. but they intentionally bomb police stations, they intentionally bomb the university, they intentionally bomb the interior ministry and intentionally they bomb the mosques, and they try to convince the world that they care about civilians?

sorry, that's really hard to accept as self defense or needed in order to eliminate rockets. that's just unnecessary force that kills indiscriminately.

[oldschool]

intentionally they bomb the mosques


They aren't randomly bombing mosques.

I read they just hit one, that was said to be a hamas terrorist base.

[oldschool]

that's bull$hit again.


Something is really mentally wrong with you. It's not bull$****. The rockets are not being launched from "military buildings" as you implied earlier. They're being launched from random civilian areas, and as another poster said most of them are portable and can be moved around easily.

[oldschool]

that's just unnecessary force that kills indiscriminately.

They are not "killing indiscriminately." If they were, most of the dead would be civilians.

But, most of the dead are hamas members.

Maybe you need to stop using the word "indiscriminately" since you don't seem to know what it means.

You are turning out to be a troll and a liar, not merely someone with a different viewpoint.

[Sharas]

why is the university bombed? why is the interior ministry bombed?

you have no answer for these and you know it.
is that effort to minimize civilian victims and avoid the collateral damage in your book? do they really detest the deaths of innocents? their actions seem to tell otherwise, again, for the whole world except for zionists.

you know very well that they're committing the atrocity right now when we're talking. however, it's the israel, so we decide to call that different, better sounding names and not expose for what it is.

[RainierBeachPoet]

oldschool

this is obviously an emotional topic for you

i am just wondering, did you have any relatives killed in israel?

[IlliniFan]

It's funny that anyone that disagrees with oldschool is crazy or insane or a scumbag. Sorry we're not all Zionist Jews.

[oldschool]

It's funny that anyone that disagrees with oldschool is crazy or insane or a scumbag.

False. People who disagree with me are not necessarily crazy or a scumbag.

People who lie, twist the truth, can't answer basic questions about the own reason for their opinions, spew dishonest nonsense, etc. are, though.

[oldschool]

why is the university bombed?

BBC News says: Earlier, a raid destroyed a science building at the Islamic University in Gaza - a centre of support for the Islamist militant group that controls the narrow coastal strip. Many top Hamas officials graduated from there.

[loot]

I am a tool


Edit: Post edited by OldSchool who's abusing his modding rights. Good work boy!

[oldschool]

you have no answer for these and you know it.


You are a ****ing tool. For 15 pages now you have either failed to explain your own opinions, twisted reality, and spewed any utter bull**** you could think to utter in order to promote your hate agenda.

Tell me again, idiot, how you feel israel can attack hamas members by attacking at night instead of day, seeing as how at night hamas members are at home with their wives and children.

[oldschool]

why is the interior ministry bombed?

It's a hamas building. DUH?

[oldschool]

however, it's the israel, so we decide to call that different, better sounding names and not expose for what it is.

They're attacking terrorists, and the vast majority of people they've managed to hit are hamas members.

Walk it off.

[Sharas]

BBC News says: Earlier, a raid destroyed a science building at the Islamic University in Gaza - a centre of support for the Islamist militant group that controls the narrow coastal strip. Many top Hamas officials graduated from there.

that's supposed to be an excuse for bombing it? you bomb the university because part of the graduates become hamas members later? that's the university's fault or something? bombing the university is somehow going to make israel more secure?

you're having a breakdown right now:lol

[oldschool]

Sharas,

Listen scumbag. Explain right now your post that you've failed to explain forever now. Explain how you accused israel of WANTING to kill innocent people by attacking at 11:30am, "to kill schoolchildren." and said that they should be doing it at night.

But, at night, hamas members are home with their families. That would result in MORE civililian deaths, not less.

During the day, hamas members would probably be away from their families, so it makes sense to try to get them then.

Answer this question right now. Enough already.

[Sharas]

it happened two years ago, but the point still stands.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/07/17/18289001.php

[oldschool]

it happened two years ago, but the point still stands.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/07/17/18289001.php

It's wild how there don't seem to any palestinian groups calling for the end of the sick terrorist garbage from hamas and other palestinian extremist groups.

I think that says a lot.

[Brunch@Five]

Sharas obviously doesn't watch the news. See, I'm against civilian casualties as much as you are, but at least get your facts straight.
They bombed the university because it's Hamas centre and they develop explosives in the university's laboratories.


is that Islamic University was more than just a learning institution; it also was a Hamas Qassam rocket manufacturing facility, an outpost, a center for weapons research and development and a Hamas storage facility.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,474084,00.html

[Sharas]

Sharas,

Listen scumbag. Explain right now your post that you've failed to explain forever now. Explain how you accused israel of WANTING to kill innocent people by attacking at 11:30am, "to kill schoolchildren." and said that they should be doing it at night.

But, at night, hamas members are home with their families. That would result in MORE civililian deaths, not less.

During the day, hamas members would probably be away from their families, so it makes sense to try to get them then.

Answer this question right now. Enough already.

and how does it make sense to attack the university?

one of the maids is the mother of a hamas official?:lol

[loot]

Sharas,

Listen scumbag. Explain right now your post that you've failed to explain forever now. Explain how you accused israel of WANTING to kill innocent people by attacking at 11:30am, "to kill schoolchildren." and said that they should be doing it at night.

But, at night, hamas members are home with their families. That would result in MORE civililian deaths, not less.

Answer this question right now or I'm ****ing banning you for being a troll and a liar.
Why did you edit my post OldSchool?

And you're now threatning to ban Sharas? Everybody in this topic sees what's going on. If you actually ban Sharas, like you banned me, I got the feeling you could just as well ban me and a few others too.

Seriously, you're making a mess here, why not just listen to the arguments and reply. If it's not worth replying to, there's no need to ban people or curse at them. (especially not as a mod)

If someone is really talking nonsense, there's always the ignore mode and with all the bull**** we see at ish, this should NOT be a reason to ban people, how much people might go against your beliefs. Just a word of advice.


Also from the topic I posted which got deleted: Wouldnt it be a good idea to make one central Israel/Palestina topic? That way we can read back and keep it all in one organized topic.

[loot]

It's wild how there don't seem to any palestinian groups calling for the end of the sick terrorist garbage from hamas and other palestinian extremist groups.

I think that says a lot.
And bombing Palestinians won't help anything there either. It will only make those who didnt hate Israel even more, It will get Hamas more support, it will grow future terrorists.

[oldschool]

I love how no matter what sharas claims, Loot refuses to conflict anything said, no matter how half-true it is, but any word I utter, Loot is on it

[Sharas]

It's wild how there don't seem to any palestinian groups calling for the end of the sick terrorist garbage from hamas and other palestinian extremist groups.

I think that says a lot.

that's just plain impossible. all palestinians aren't behind hamas. all palestinians aren't terrorists.

but, every innocent victim creates dozens of potential terrorists. can you imagine how the family of these victims feels right now?
do you believe it will get them closer or farther from extremism? what israel does right now is not only an atrocity, but it's also not smart from purely pragmatic point of view.

[oldschool]

and how does it make sense to attack the university?

one of the maids is the mother of a hamas official?:lol

Enough is enough. Answer this now or you're being banned like TROLLS deserve to get banned

Explain right now your post that you've failed to explain forever now. Explain how you accused israel of WANTING to kill innocent people by attacking at 11:30am, "to kill schoolchildren." and said that they should be doing it at night.

But, at night, hamas members are home with their families. That would result in MORE civililian deaths, not less.

During the day, hamas members would probably be away from their families, so it makes sense to try to get them then.

Answer this question right now.

[Smokee]

This back and forth is really retarded. Just think logically. If Israel could end it all and had the means to be precise targeting their enemies only, they would. You people really think they just like bombing the **** out of Palestinians constantly? Then what? Syria and then taking out all of Iran? :rolleyes:

Its not unheard of for weaker countries to use civilians as a means to wage war. Its the norm if anything. You can't directly face your enemy when they are superior to you, you have to hide and use general civilians as cover. The whole point of doing that is to deny it like the other side are the true bad guys, even if thats the only means for which you can wage that war.

I mean if Hamas had all of their buildings marked as military they wouldn't have a bomb/buidling left. Of course they are going to use the least suspecting cover buildings, pretend like they were innocently bombed, etc. Its just how a weaker enemy fights. They have no other recourse than to fight like that.

But most of you should know better than to actually believe a lot of the stuff Hamas spouts, and how evil they portray Israel for retaliation, while using innocent people as guilt trip casualties. This is real war, and how its fought by weaker enemies. No different than what rebels did in Afghanistan to root out the Soviet Union, except it worked for them. Not very different than whats going on in Iraq. Terrorists, or rather weaker enemies, use civilians as cover period. What else can they really do? :confusedshrug:

[oldschool]

that's just plain impossible. all palestinians aren't behind hamas. all palestinians aren't terrorists.

No one said this. You're hallucinating again, delusional troll.

[oldschool]

sharas,

answer the question I've been asking for 10 pages now, or you're banned for good

I absolutely have the right to ban dishonest TROLLS.

[loot]

I love how no matter what sharas claims, Loot refuses to conflict anything said, no matter how half-true it is, but any word I utter, Loot is on it

You are a mod cursing at people, banning them unrightfully. I don't see what's so strange about me being on your case about that.


Other than that I'm pretty clear about my thoughts on the issue. Agression won't help. I don't see Sharas defending the use of force from Hamas' side. I actually don't care about Hamas and they're not doing much right. I care about the (Palestian) people getting caught up in this issue (in this case more precisely).

If it would make you feel better I could point out a few mistakes by Sharas as well? :confusedshrug:

[oldschool]

I actually don't care about Hamas and they're not doing much right. I care about the (Palestian) people getting caught up in this issue (in this case more precisely).


if you care about the palestinian people, you might want to also care about hamas and the fact that hamas uses the gaza strip as a terrorist launching pad against a strong neighboring country which results in actions that hurt the palestinian people

[YAWN]

that's bull$hit again.

israel has a good enough army and intelligence to be able to take these out with much, much less casualties if they really wanted. they've got an awesome air force able to bomb these without any unnecessary casualties.


i posted a video in another thread of an israeli bomb strike against a rocket launcher. which hamas purposely had in a residential area.

you cant pin all the civilian casualties on israel. you must place equal or more blame on hamas