Kobe Bryant is he overrated or underrated all time?

[LAShow24]

Be Truthful here.

I love Kobe, but I think all time he is overrated. I don't think he is in that upper echelon of players of the top 10 until he can prove that he can win as the best player on the team first. Anyone can win when they have the best player on the team and in the league on it which is how Kobe won his titles early on.

[quasimoto]

:applause:

[SilentObserver]

I agree, hes a little bit overrated, and those mj comparisions are ridiculous.:violin:

[bagelred]

He's both overrated and underrated.

Think about it.

[konex]

He is higly underrated right now IMO. 4th in MVP ranking on ESPN and NBA.com? WTF is going on here? :confusedshrug:

[GMW]

Anyone can win when they have the best player on the team and in the league on it
:ohwell:

[Yung D-Will]

He's underrated when people compared him to Lebron and he's overrated when people compare him to Jordan

[JtotheIzzo]

He's both overrated and underrated.

Think about it.


dude did you ever just blow my mind! ;)

Cereal doe...Ever since MJ left the media has been searching for the next MJ. Initially they were nuts about it even calling the likes of Jerry Stackhouse and Grant Hill (though he was a bad boy) 'perhaps the heir apparent'.

Kobe has simply kept people intrigued as he has been the best choice for heir apparent for an abnormally long time, but has never quite taken it to the supreme level.

Kobe will be downgraded in the next couple of years if LBJ and DWade continue to do what they do.

Kobe's been heir apparent in a WEAK era.

[J000]

SO What? if he is compared to Jordan? It is comparable back then. I don't think anyone is making the comparisons now. LBJ is compared to Jordan now, is he overrated? I think he will go down as underrated and overshadowed by some players. In the next 20-30 years he won't be remembered as much.

[Diesel J]

Kobe is overrated when compared to the GOAT, Michael Jordan and he's overrated now when compared to the likes of Cp3-Wade-Lebron and even Duncan.

[gts]

is kobe MJ, no, is Kobe overated.
no because only idiots compare him to MJ and only fools listen.
Kobe is and has been the best active player in the game though for a number of years, and that is not being overated, just appreciated

[ACCBaller1403]

Unless he wins a couple titles as the best player on his team, then yes, he's slightly overrated in the grand scheme of things. If he is able to bring in some titles, then I think he belongs right where people currently rate him (disregarding BULLS/Stiff#1's outrageous rankings).

[JtotheIzzo]

is kobe MJ, no, is Kobe overated.
no because only idiots compare him to MJ and only fools listen.
Kobe is and has been the best active player in the game though for a number of years, and that is not being overated, just appreciated

while this is for the most part true I think the 'overrated' people are referring to is the over the top man-loving media people like Mark Jackson bestow on him and how he is constantly referenced as 'the ultimate weapon'.

We always hear sh*t like:

"Well the Lakers have Kobe and you'd have to be crazy to bet against Kobe."
"Team USA will win because they now have Kobe."
"Kobe Bryant will be the difference vs the Celtics in the final>'

etc...

It rarely comes to fruition, and when you compare the amount of times the talking heads big him up, and when he actually comes through, there is a disparity...hence...overrated.

[Diesel J]

I think the 'overrated' people are referring to is the over the top man-loving media people like Mark Jackson bestow on him and how he is constantly referenced as 'the ultimate weapon'.



:oldlol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKleIQo2dmI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuD_cOBkTsM

[db23]

Almost EVERY player is viewed as either overrated or underrated. It's a matter of opinion.

My short overrated list:

Russell
Jordan
West
Shaq
Cousy
Worthy
Kidd
Walton
Duncan
Ewing

My short underrated list:

Kareem
Bird
Magic
Stockton
King
Pippen
Wilt
Baylor
McHale
Isiah

How the **** is Jordan overrated?Id seriously like to hear an explanation on this, highest regular season ppg, highest playoff ppg, pratically 6 straight chips, prob would have been 8 or more had he not got bored and retired twice, won without dominant bigman, always raised his game in playoffs.Lol some people make me laugh.

[juju151111]

Almost EVERY player is viewed as either overrated or underrated. It's a matter of opinion.

My short overrated list:

Russell
Jordan
West
Shaq
Cousy
Worthy
Kidd
Walton
Duncan
Ewing

My short underrated list:

Kareem
Bird
Magic
Stockton
King
Pippen
Wilt
Baylor
McHale
Isiah
LMAO how is shaq,MJ, and duncan overrated.Wait a go dumbass

[Yung D-Will]

LMAO how is shaq,MJ, and duncan overrated.Wait a go dumbass


Did he just say Kidd is overrated?

[Nash-tastic]

Did he just say Kidd is overrated?
Yes, along with Jordan,Duncan,Shaq

[omarnyc]

Did he just say Kidd is overrated?

kidd is way overrated

[DuMa]

Yes, along with Jordan,Duncan,Shaq

poseidon is back again and his ****** is sandy again
and kobe is way overrated by his fans. regular fans know hes just an average player in NBA history. drexler like

[KenneBell]

regular fans know hes just an average player in NBA history. drexler like
:roll:

GTFO.

[nbastatus]

yes, kobe is overrated, especially in LA.
and i hate it... stupid kobes fans think hes the best player and doesnt know anything about nba.

[Yung D-Will]

kidd is way overrated

Jason Kidd is arguably the best point guard in the past 10 years. Over 100 triple double,An all time assist leader? A nine time all star? If he's overrated then I don't want to know what Steve Nash is.:pimp: :pimp:

[LJJ]

To me Kobe is one of those borderline MVP's. Not at any point unquestionably the greatest player in the league, but at least top 10 for a couple of years.

[Kobe24]

Right now, HIGHLY underrated. Oh well, when the Cavs sink without Z, Kobe will rise up to first in the MVP rankings and take a back to back MVP.

[Diesel J]

IF you look at the Cavs team from last season and this season, the ONLY difference/addition is Mo Williams. Therefore he is the Cavs "REAL" MVP and the sole reason why (along with a soft schedule) they have the record that they do right now.

No doubt about it.


Just like Gasol won Kobe the MVP? You better thank Memphis/Jerry West for Kobe's MVP:oldlol: post-Shaq era Kobe w/o Gasol = 2nd round virgin


Ok so I did some research to back up my point. Bynum went down 35 games into the season. The Lakers from that time until they got Pau went 5-5 aka .500. They went from 25-11 (.694) (24-11 was the game he went down in) to 30-16 (.652) during that span. When they got Pau they went 27-9 after they got him, but I know that he got hurt for a few games. That brought their percentage back up to 695.

Without Pau the team would possibly have continued to play .500 ball and won 48 games. Bam all over you.




This must have gotten burried. For those of you that don't believe it go to the schedule and do the math your self. This is a big FU to everyone who thought I was an idiot for saying Pau saved the Lakers season last year.

[Psileas]

State--Kobe's status

ALABAMA--Overrated
ALASKA--No persons found
ARIZONA--Underrated
ARKANSAS--Underrated
CALIFORNIA--Underrated (nah, kidding...)
COLORADO--Underrated
CONNECTICUT--Overrated
DELAWARE----Overrated
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA--Underrated
FLORIDA--Underrated
GEORGIA--Overrated
HAWAII--Overrated
IDAHO--Underrated
ILLINOIS--Underrated
INDIANA--Underrated
IOWA--Overrated
KANSAS--Overrated
KENTUCKY--Underrated
LOUISIANA--Underrated
MAINE--Just
MARYLAND--Underrated
MASSACHUSETTS--Underrated
MICHIGAN--Underrated
MINNESOTA--Underrated
MISSISSIPPI--Underrated
MISSOURI--Underrated
MONTANA--Overrated
NEBRASKA--Underrated
NEVADA--Overrated
NEW HAMPSHIRE--Overrated
NEW JERSEY--Underrated
NEW MEXICO--Overrated
NEW YORK--Underrated
NORTH CAROLINA--Underrated
NORTH DAKOTA--Overrated
OHIO--Underrated
OKLAHOMA--Overrated
OREGON--Overrated
PENNSYLVANIA--Overrated
RHODE ISLAND--Overrated
SOUTH CAROLINA--Overrated
SOUTH DAKOTA--Overrated
TENNESSEE--Underrated
TEXAS--Overrated
UTAH--Overrated
VERMONT--Underrated
VIRGINIA--Underrated
WASHINGTON--Overrated
WEST VIRGINIA--Underrated
WISCONSIN----Overrated
WYOMING--See Alaska

[Allstar24]

is kobe MJ, no, is Kobe overated.
no because only idiots compare him to MJ and only fools listen.
Kobe is and has been the best active player in the game though for a number of years, and that is not being overated, just appreciated
Best post on this thread!

Other than fools in the mainstream media, nobody compares Kobe to Jordan. That includes Laker fans, Kobe fans, and Kobe himself...we don't consider him to be on Jordan's level so how could he possibly be overrated? Its quite the opposite actually. Kobe is severely underrated on this board by no-life losers who know nothing about basketball. They only wish that he will be forgotten in a few years. They can't change the fact that people in the real world will always appreciate Kobe and consider him one of the greatest players to play this game. They can't change the opinion of coaches, GMs and NBA players who have considered Kobe to be the best player in the league for the past few years in a row. Deal with it, haters. If we win the title this year with Kobe as our leader, I

[LAShow24]

Almost EVERY player is viewed as either overrated or underrated. It's a matter of opinion.

My short overrated list:

Russell
Jordan
West
Shaq
Cousy
Worthy
Kidd
Walton
Duncan
Ewing

My short underrated list:

Kareem
Bird
Magic
Stockton
King
Pippen
Wilt
Baylor
McHale
Isiah

Exactly how is Kareem and Magic underrated when they played together?

Exactly how is Wilt underrated when he played with 2 top 15 players all time and couldn't win?

How is Pippen underrated when he played with 2 other top 20 players in Hakeem and Barkley and didn't even make it out of round 1?

Most importantly how is MJ overrated when he has the most finals mvp's ever by more than double and the highest scoring average ever in the season and playoffs?

[ZHAKIDD532]

There are people that go both ways. This season his numbers aren't as good because he's concentrating more on defense and getting his teammates involved. Top to bottom, that roster might be the best in the NBA. So this season he's become underrated, they shrug him off compared to LeBron and DWade. Overall though, people try and compare him to the all-time greats, and if he can win a championship this year, it'll be warranted. But for now, he's not as good.

[Kobe24]

Just like Gasol won Kobe the MVP? You better thank Memphis/Jerry West for Kobe's MVP:oldlol: post-Shaq era Kobe w/o Gasol = 2nd round virgin

Let's thank Jerry for doing nothing. He wasn't even the GM at that time clown. Kobe haters always getting their facts wrong. :oldlol:

[Scott Pippen]

yes, kobe is overrated, especially in LA.
and i hate it...

of course but that doesn't count. Those are special people. He is rated just correctly by most normal basketball fans. Anywhere from #13 -#17 all time when you include career accomplishment, ability, and rings. If he would have played well and actually won in 2004 & 2008 he would likely be between #8 -#11.:applause:

[Diesel J]

Let's thank Jerry for doing nothing. He wasn't even the GM at that time clown. Kobe haters always getting their facts wrong. :oldlol:

I don't have any "facts" wrong. I was refering to the fact that many feel that he had something to do with it behind the scenes you clown:oldlol:

http://www.fanhouse.com/2008/02/09/jerry-west-swears-he-had-nothing-to-do-with-the-gasol-trade/

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-heisleygasol060308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

:violin:

[AllenIverson3]

Almost EVERY player is viewed as either overrated or underrated. It's a matter of opinion.

My short overrated list:

Russell
Jordan
West
Shaq
Cousy
Worthy
Kidd
Walton
Duncan
Ewing

My short underrated list:

Kareem
Bird
Magic
Stockton
King
Pippen
Wilt
Baylor
McHale
Isiah

:wtf:

[bdreason]

Kobe a little overrated overall. I think this is mostly because he played his whole career with a really popular team (Lakers), and he does have 3 rings.


However, he's still a great player, and the people who attempt to 'dis' Kobe (haters) by making comparisons to MJ are just as bad as the people who think Kobe is as good as MJ (homers).

[tab-90]

i think he's overrated by kobe fanboys and underrated because people hate him. can we really answer this question right now? i think we should wait until his career is over.

[AItheAnswer3]

regular fans know hes just an average player in NBA history. drexler like
Kobe's an all-time great. If Kobe's average, I don't know what to say about guys like Nash, Kidd etc. Kobe has achieved more than what Drexler did and he's a bit more talented than him. I rank him higher than Drexler (around top 15 all-time).

But only a moron would think he's on Jordan's level.

[guy]

Best post on this thread!

Other than fools in the mainstream media, nobody compares Kobe to Jordan. That includes Laker fans, Kobe fans, and Kobe himself...we don't consider him to be on Jordan's level so how could he possibly be overrated?

You've got to be kidding me. Maybe its the mainstream that initially started the comparisons, but to say that many Laker/Kobe fans don't compare him to Jordan, and some even think he's better then Jordan, is ridiculous. Sure, the comparisons are almost non-existant now after what happened in last year's Finals, but they were definitely made by many Laker/Kobe fans.

Anyway, like many have said, he's overrated by many and underrated by many.

He's overrated when people compare him to the likes of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, etc. He's overrated when people say that Kobe is the hands down best player in the league and it shouldn't even be an argument, even though a case could be made for Lebron, Wade, Duncan, CP3, etc.

He's underrated when people say he's not even top 30 all-time. I'd say he's top 15, maybe top 20. He's underrated when people think its a joke to compare him to the likes of Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, or Julius Erving (NBA), even though he's basically accomplished just as much or more then them.

[1~Gibson~1]

Almost EVERY player is viewed as either overrated or underrated. It's a matter of opinion.

My short overrated list:

Russell
Jordan
West
Shaq
Cousy
Worthy
Kidd
Walton
Duncan
Ewing

My short underrated list:

Kareem
Bird
Magic
Stockton
King
Pippen
Wilt
Baylor
McHale
Isiah
LeBron Jamesthis goes to show you how much he loves LeBron James

[Knoe Itawl]

Look, any rational thinking NBA fan who is not a part of the Kobe Hype Machine realizes he's overrated. Anytime you compare him to Jordan, when he's failed to live up to Jordan by a wide margin, then he has to be overrated. He's scored 81 points and had a couple of scoring steaks, plays a similar game and that's the bulk of why he's compared to Jordan. When you examine playoff performances (specifically Finals), best seasons, defense all of it Kobe just doesn't come up short, but he does so by a significant margin.

Then when you have people touting him as the best player in the game and I don't even want to hear an argument about it, then that's overrating him as well because he's never been the undisputed best player in the league. You can say he may have had a CASE but to pretend that it's not even worthy of discussion to suggest otherwise, is to overrate him.

Kobe's obviously had a lot of high points in his career, however he's come up short on a lot of important occassions as well. That's something that is generally ignored when certain arguments are made for his greatness.

[Allstar24]

You've got to be kidding me. Maybe its the mainstream that initially started the comparisons, but to say that many Laker/Kobe fans don't compare him to Jordan, and some even think he's better then Jordan, is ridiculous. Sure, the comparisons are almost non-existant now after what happened in last year's Finals, but they were definitely made by many Laker/Kobe fans.

Anyway, like many have said, he's overrated by many and underrated by many.

He's overrated when people compare him to the likes of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, etc. He's overrated when people say that Kobe is the hands down best player in the league and it shouldn't even be an argument, even though a case could be made for Lebron, Wade, Duncan, CP3, etc.

He's underrated when people say he's not even top 30 all-time. I'd say he's top 15, maybe top 20. He's underrated when people think its a joke to compare him to the likes of Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, or Julius Erving (NBA), even though he's basically accomplished just as much or more then them.
Right but every NBA player has their share of delusional fans who like to think that their idol is comparable to Jordan

[Chrono90]

Be Truthful here.

I love Kobe, but I think all time he is overrated. I don't think he is in that upper echelon of players of the top 10 until he can prove that he can win as the best player on the team first. Anyone can win when they have the best player on the team and in the league on it which is how Kobe won his titles early on.

no not anyone.
He's overrated when he's compared to jordan. Underrated when saying he's not best in the league right now

[Godfather]

no not anyone.
He's overrated when he's compared to jordan. Underrated when saying he's not best in the league right now

Dwayne Wade
Chris Paul
LeBron James

They are all better than Kobe Bryant this season...

[gpfanz]

Yes. Severely overated :bowdown:

[KenneBell]

He's right where basketball-reference.com put him, right around #13 all-time. Their formula for HOF probability is very accurate.

At the current moment, he's underrated in my opinion or better yet, under appreciated. He's still a top player in the league but he's starting to fall into the Tim Duncan level where he puts up his normal great numbers and wins without getting noticed.

[KB42PAH]

He is the most complete, and the most skilled overall player to ever play.

[Showtime]

He is the most complete, and the most skilled overall player to ever play in a Laker uniform with the # 24.
fixed

[KB42PAH]

Dwayne Wade
Chris Paul
LeBron James

They are all better than Kobe Bryant this season...


Chris Paul? A 6ft midget who lost game 7 on his homecourt? Sure he is the best PG in the nba, but god you people have the IQ of a peanut. He can't take over a game like Kobe, Lebron and Wade. Hes a bigtime statpadder.

Wade? Again he is having an amazing season statisitcally, but do you realize Koe is honestly playing with 75% effort. Cruise control. You hollinger, fantasy basketball fruitcakes will get punked with playoffs roll around. You take those guys over Kobe - well see who gets the last laugh.

Lebron has had a great season, and its arguable that he is playing at a higher level at the moment. But that doesnt' make him BETTER. Again a huge display of LOW IQ.

[picc84]

Overrated. He couldn't even make the playoffs without Lamar Odom. And then couldn't even reach the finals without Pau Gasol.

If you look at the great players in league history, historically none of them have played alongside any good players. Thats what made them so great, that they accomplished all they did entirely by themselves.

[KB42PAH]

Overrated. He couldn't even make the playoffs without Lamar Odom. And then couldn't even reach the finals without Pau Gasol.

If you look at the great players in league history, historically none of them have played alongside any good players. Thats what made them so great, that they accomplished all they did entirely by themselves.


You have got to be the dumbest person I have ever seen.

Kerr: Best 3 pt % in NBA history
Pippen: 2nd Best perimeter player in NBA, best defensive player in NBA, All-star, top 50 all time
Rodman: Greatest rebounder all time, All-star
Horace Grant: All-star, great player

Without Jordan, Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins.

Phil Jackson: "We were lucky we never faced any great centers in the finals."

No zone defense, stacked team.

Another 15 year old. Sad.

[Scott Pippen]

You have got to be the dumbest person I have ever seen.

Kerr: Best 3 pt % in NBA history
Pippen: 2nd Best perimeter player in NBA, best defensive player in NBA, All-star, top 50 all time
Rodman: Greatest rebounder all time, All-star
Horace Grant: All-star, great player

Without Jordan, Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins.

Phil Jackson: "We were lucky we never faced any great centers in the finals."

No zone defense, stacked team.

Another 15 year old. Sad.

sarcasm:applause:

[KB42PAH]

sarcasm:applause:

You use more smileys than any other person on this board. I think you contribue absolutely nothing to the NBA fan base or this board.

[Scott Pippen]

You use more smileys than any other person on this board. I think you contribue absolutely nothing to the NBA fan base or this board.
You made a useless post in response to a sarcastic comment made by Lakers fan (picc84). You do not have to insult people.:applause:

[JellyBean]

Is Kobe overrated? Nope. Is Kobe underrated? Yes.

First off, Kobe is way underrated. To me, I think it was Doc Rivers who said it best, "We need to just sit back and enjoy players like Kobe and leave all the comparing alone." Kobe gets the blame when the team loses and when they win. He gets called blamed for being selfish when he has to strap a team on his back for 48 minutes. He gets blamed for forcing shots, which is true. But dang who else is going to take a shot? If he passes out to another teammate, the critics complain about him not taking the shot. When he takes the shot, the critics complain about him not finding that player in the corner who was open....WT???

With the overrated part, come on!!! How the heck can he be overrated? To me, that is just some B.S. from anti-fans and all of the haters who constantly want to rip on Kobe for being Kobe. People forget that if it wasn't for Kobe, the Lakers would never have won 3 titles in a row. Without Kobe, the Lakers would never have been more than the 3rd best team in the Pacific division and 6th or 7th seed in the Western Conference.

I get sick of this talk about Kobe being overrated. When I hear those comments, I start to question a persons basketball IQ.

[guy]

Is Kobe overrated? Nope. Is Kobe underrated? Yes.

First off, Kobe is way underrated. To me, I think it was Doc Rivers who said it best, "We need to just sit back and enjoy players like Kobe and leave all the comparing alone." Kobe gets the blame when the team loses and when they win. He gets called blamed for being selfish when he has to strap a team on his back for 48 minutes. He gets blamed for forcing shots, which is true. But dang who else is going to take a shot? If he passes out to another teammate, the critics complain about him not taking the shot. When he takes the shot, the critics complain about him not finding that player in the corner who was open....WT???

I really don't hear people talking like that anymore. And if they do, they usually aren't the posters that know what they're talking about.



With the overrated part, come on!!! How the heck can he be overrated? To me, that is just some B.S. from anti-fans and all of the haters who constantly want to rip on Kobe for being Kobe. People forget that if it wasn't for Kobe, the Lakers would never have won 3 titles in a row. Without Kobe, the Lakers would never have been more than the 3rd best team in the Pacific division and 6th or 7th seed in the Western Conference.


Obviously if you just took Kobe off that team and didn't replace him with anyone they wouldn't have 3 titles in a row. I highly doubt they couldn't have won 3 straight with no other player in the league at the time in his place. And even with Kobe, they arguably shouldn't have even won that much due to the Kings series in 2002.

But to the bolded, WHATTTT????? From 2000-2002, here's what they're records were without Kobe in the starting lineup:

2000: 16-4
2001: 11-3
2002: 2-0


During the 3-peat they were 29-7 without Kobe starting. Thats actually a better winning % then what they had with Kobe starting. And Kobe didn't play at all in all of those games except for 4 in 2000, I just didn't bother to look that up cause it would've taken alot more effort. I'm not saying the team would've been better off without Kobe, cause I highly doubt that, but to say they would be a 6th or 7th seed is pretty ridiculous.

[LAShow24]

You have got to be the dumbest person I have ever seen.

Kerr: Best 3 pt % in NBA history
Pippen: 2nd Best perimeter player in NBA, best defensive player in NBA, All-star, top 50 all time
Rodman: Greatest rebounder all time, All-star
Horace Grant: All-star, great player

Without Jordan, Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins.

Phil Jackson: "We were lucky we never faced any great centers in the finals."

No zone defense, stacked team.

Another 15 year old. Sad.

Are you retarted?

First off Rodman was one dimensional and Kerr was as well.

Kobe played with Karl Malone, Gary Payton and Shaq the same year and got outplayed by a freaking team that the world said had no chance to win.

Yes those were Jordan's teammates, but that was from 33-35 years old, not from 26-28.

Kobe has NEVER made it out of round 1 without an allstar big man.

Seriously why the hell do you always bring up Jordan in a discussion that has nothing to do with him?

Stop ****** Baiting and Trolling on these boards.

[nbastatus]

Chris Paul? A 6ft midget who lost game 7 on his homecourt? Sure he is the best PG in the nba, but god you people have the IQ of a peanut. He can't take over a game like Kobe, Lebron and Wade. Hes a bigtime statpadder.

Wade? Again he is having an amazing season statisitcally, but do you realize Koe is honestly playing with 75% effort. Cruise control. You hollinger, fantasy basketball fruitcakes will get punked with playoffs roll around. You take those guys over Kobe - well see who gets the last laugh.

Lebron has had a great season, and its arguable that he is playing at a higher level at the moment. But that doesnt' make him BETTER. Again a huge display of LOW IQ.
then what makes your precious kobe is the best?
doode cant even carry his team to the final without gasol, think about it and stop with your idiot IQ speech.
got 3 rings because of shaq?
made to the final because of gasol?
never made out of the 1st round playoff without a big man?
wow that really made kobe the best player.
and btw james is better than kobe, just to let you know.
please get off kobes dick bro.

[xcesswee]

Everyone needs to ignore kb42pah because he is a troll. If he is not, then we shouldn't hate on a guy who is mentally handicapped. Now about Kobe. He is both. Overrated in the sense that the media and kobe fans portrays him as a god. Underrated because non-laker fans and many NBA fans always try to nitpick every single flaw he has and BLOW it out of proportion. Kobe Bryant is a top 4 player (Lebron is 1st but i really believe wade, kobe, and cp3 are all near the same level) who is just starting to understand teamwork and leadership skills. Kobe no longer thinks about him all the time; it's about the team and winning a championship.

[Jacks3]

Kobe= Best player in the world and already a top 10 player ever. If you go by peak/prime performance there are very few guys I'd take over him. He's underrated and under appreciated like Tim Duncan.

[gpfanz]

Kobe= Best player in the world and already a top 10 player ever. If you go by peak/prime performance there are very few guys I'd take over him. He's underrated and under appreciated like Tim Duncan.

Pls do not put Kobe & Duncan on the same line egad!

[Jacks3]

Pls do not put Kobe & Duncan on the same line egad!
why not/:confusedshrug:

[gpfanz]

why not/:confusedshrug:

Kobe = Great individual player :rockon:

Duncan = Great team player :bowdown:

[Jacks3]

Kobe = Great individual player :rockon:

Duncan = Great team player :bowdown:
:lol

[LAShow24]

Kobe= Best player in the world and already a top 10 player ever. If you go by peak/prime performance there are very few guys I'd take over him. He's underrated and under appreciated like Tim Duncan.

Kobe isn't as good as Duncan.

Duncan = 3 Finals MVP's

[Jacks3]

Kobe isn't as good as Duncan.

Duncan = 3 Finals MVP's
When did I say he was?:confusedshrug:

[plowking]

Kobe= Best player in the world and already a top 10 player ever. If you go by peak/prime performance there are very few guys I'd take over him. He's underrated and under appreciated like Tim Duncan.

Top 10? NO.

Top 25? Maybe.

[gpfanz]

Top 10? NO.

Top 25? Maybe.

Yup probably top 25 nothing more

[quasimoto]

When did I say he was?:confusedshrug:
Then where do you think Tim Duncan ranks all-time?

[Jacks3]

Then where do you think Tim Duncan ranks all-time?
I have Duncan in the top 10 ahead of Kobe.

[Jacks3]

Top 10? NO.

Top 25? Maybe.
I disagree. Kobe is indisputably a top 20 player ever and imo borderline top 10 ever.

[gpfanz]

I disagree. Kobe is indisputably a top 20 player ever and imo borderline top 10 ever.

Top 10 in individual skills?

[Jacks3]

Top 10 in individual skills?
No, I rank players historically based on prime/peak play and then career achievements..

[bence23]

State--Kobe's status

ALABAMA--Overrated
ALASKA--No persons found
ARIZONA--Underrated
ARKANSAS--Underrated
CALIFORNIA--Underrated (nah, kidding...)
COLORADO--Underrated
CONNECTICUT--Overrated
DELAWARE----Overrated
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA--Underrated
FLORIDA--Underrated
GEORGIA--Overrated
HAWAII--Overrated
IDAHO--Underrated
ILLINOIS--Underrated
INDIANA--Underrated
IOWA--Overrated
KANSAS--Overrated
KENTUCKY--Underrated
LOUISIANA--Underrated
MAINE--Just
MARYLAND--Underrated
MASSACHUSETTS--Underrated
MICHIGAN--Underrated
MINNESOTA--Underrated
MISSISSIPPI--Underrated
MISSOURI--Underrated
MONTANA--Overrated
NEBRASKA--Underrated
NEVADA--Overrated
NEW HAMPSHIRE--Overrated
NEW JERSEY--Underrated
NEW MEXICO--Overrated
NEW YORK--Underrated
NORTH CAROLINA--Underrated
NORTH DAKOTA--Overrated
OHIO--Underrated
OKLAHOMA--Overrated
OREGON--Overrated
PENNSYLVANIA--Overrated
RHODE ISLAND--Overrated
SOUTH CAROLINA--Overrated
SOUTH DAKOTA--Overrated
TENNESSEE--Underrated
TEXAS--Overrated
UTAH--Overrated
VERMONT--Underrated
VIRGINIA--Underrated
WASHINGTON--Overrated
WEST VIRGINIA--Underrated
WISCONSIN----Overrated
WYOMING--See Alaska

WTF is this stupid ****!?

everyone in arizona HATES kobe.

[Psileas]

Kobe is not "maybe" top-25 ever. He's in the same category with the "below Duncan/Erving" tier (Isiah, Barkley, Havlicek, Pettit, Barry, Robinson) and, according to the criteria you use, he has some of them beaten.


then what makes your precious kobe is the best?
doode cant even carry his team to the final without gasol, think about it and stop with your idiot IQ speech.
got 3 rings because of shaq?
made to the final because of gasol?

If you think Kobe made it to the Finals thanks to Gasol, then Shaq made it to the Finals thanks to Kobe and Jordan made it to the Finals thanks to Pippen. Except if you think Gasol had been more important than Kobe for the Lakers, which doesn't even deserve a comment.


WTF is this stupid ****!?

everyone in arizona HATES kobe.

You are a bad irony appreciator.

[plowking]

I disagree. Kobe is indisputably a top 20 player ever and imo borderline top 10 ever.

Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Oscar Robertson, Russel, Kareem, Isiah, Baylor, Erving, Havlicek, Cousy...?

There are quite a few more that are arguably there with him.

[plowking]

Kobe is not "maybe" top-25 ever. He's in the same category with the "below Duncan/Erving" tier (Isiah, Barkley, Havlicek, Pettit, Barry, Robinson) and, according to the criteria you use, he has some of them beaten.



If you think Kobe made it to the Finals thanks to Gasol, then Shaq made it to the Finals thanks to Kobe and Jordan made it to the Finals thanks to Pippen. Except if you think Gasol had been more important than Kobe for the Lakers, which doesn't even deserve a comment.



You are a bad irony appreciator.

Where should Kobe be rated in your opinion?

Name me all the players you think are better then him and where he should be rated.

[Jacks3]

Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Oscar Robertson, Russel, Kareem, Isiah, Baylor, Erving, Havlicek, Cousy...?

There are quite a few more that are arguably there with him.
I'd take Kobe over guys like Erving, Isiah, Oscar, Haviliek, Cousy, Baylor etc. It's arguable either way...

[BIZARRO]

Along with some others in the thread, I think Kobe is both underrated and overrated. However, I think he is a little bit more underrated than overrated.

He is overrated if you compare him to MJ, for example, and the spectacular, mind boggling stupidity to do that. The almost perfection of an MJ is once in a lifetime, maybe 5 lifetimes. As well, people also forget about Magic and Bird when comparing Kobe to Michael often. It's like, if you wanna win a title do you really want Kobe Bryant over Magic Johnson? IMO, not in a million years.

However, he is underrated by many around here who loathe him so much that they forget to realize that dude is sick. I mean SICK. And just when you think he isn't, he gets sicker. Kobe Bryant is filthy. Period. For those who say he is lucky to be top 25, that is just way off to me, as his all around game, tenacity, skill, and talent warrant much higher IMO.

He sh*** on the skills level of almost all, but his shot selection and strange disappearances for long stretches at a time hurt him. I know his fans will say it is the cruise control mentality, but he has always had those stretches in games with Shaq, without. '06-'07 was an exception however for example. And he has month long stretches where he is consistent game in and out. But his overall talent, skill, and tenacity to me trancend things like #1 option titles, etc. In truth, he hasn't had that good of an opportunity for it anyway until last year, which is what many fail to mention.

Anyway I have him at 11 on my list. He could go a little higher before all is said and done IMO, and with some more reflection might be a comfortable top 10 player ever with some more on his resume. I know many on here will find it high, but I can't think of other players who if you started a carrer with would have more titles than Kobe, as Kobe's alpha dog personality would wear them down over time. As much as it pains me to put Kobe over the Doctor who would probably be 12 on my list, Kobe's offensive game, will, and tenacity warrant it IMO.

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Oscar
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Dream
10. Duncan
11. Kobe

Lebron is coming fast, and others like prime Doc, Moses, etc. are with, or just behind him IMO.


P.S. For the guy who said Jason Kidd is the best point guard of the past 10 years, you are why he is one of the most overrated players on ISH. Please don't compare him ever again to the Chris Paul of last year, and Nash, regardless of his system has 2 MVP's in his closet. If Kidd had ever had a jumper, maybe you could have a case (maybe), but Kidd's jumper has always been like 7-UP; never had it, never will. For some reason, Kidd has like these really intense groupies who look to him on here like he is the second coming. Strange. I've watched Kidd from his college days on, through his rookie year, and all the way. He has been good, often very good, sometimes great. But he has rarely scratched true greatness consistently. A guy like Isiah Thomas for example (one of the most underrated on ISH) destroys him. A guy like Isiah, or Stockton, or Paul are true greatness.

[NY-Knicks]

kobe will be top 10 when he's done playing.

but indeed, he is underrated and overrated

[BIZARRO]

I'd take Kobe over guys like Erving, Isiah, Oscar, Haviliek, Cousy, Baylor etc. It's arguable either way...

Indeed arguable. Jacks, you've been pretty dead on in your last 4 or 5 comments IMO. Good stuff.

Quick note, I think Lebron has surpassed him as the better player currently however. But noone ever debates that, so who cares really? :D


P.S. Plowking, do you REALLY think Isiah is/was better than Kobe at his best. I mean, you won't find a bigger fan of Isiah than me, but come on.

[Knoe Itawl]

lol @ Kobe being 11 all time. It's crazy. Might as well put LeBron and Wade there too. Also, it's certainly far from crazy to say Isiah was better than Kobe. Stop being blinded by (regular season) scoring streaks. Stop ignoring his dismal Finals performances. If you're going to take the good with Kobe, you HAVE to take the bad (namely his inconsistancy on large stages, and questionable bball IQ)

[bladefd]

Pretty good post, Bizarro. Rep'd.

I honestly think that Kobe needs to win 1 more ring as #1 option, and he will move into the top 10. If he wins multiple rings as #1 option, he has the potential of moving up to top 5 (I don't think he will though).

[kap]

overrated or underrated, all i know is that he's 1 hell of a entertainer

[Allstar24]

Top 10? NO.

Top 25? Maybe.
People like you are beyond stupid. ****ing groupies.

[Knoe Itawl]

People like you are beyond stupid. ****ing groupies.

Wait, he's stupid and a groupie because he feels Kobe is top 25, not 10? Talk about being a hypocrite. It's not like he called him lucky to be in the top 100 or something. That would be worthy of calling someone stupid. Not saying he's top 25.

Plenty of reasonable people consider Kobe to be top 25 or so rather than top 10. For you to get so upset about that shows that YOU'RE the groupie.

[Scott Pippen]

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Oscar
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Dream
10. Duncan
11. Kobe

I hated Isiah, but prime Zeke can be argued. Prime Big Moses without a doubt should be ahead IMO. I have him ranked very similar to your list but down couple spots between #13 -#17.

Also I might put:

-Wilt & Kareem in front of Magic
-Russell in front of Shaq & Oscar


Otherwise very, very nice list.:applause:

[Psileas]

Where should Kobe be rated in your opinion?

Name me all the players you think are better then him and where he should be rated.

I'll definitely take 15 players over Kobe:

Wilt, MJ, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Oscar, West, Hakeem, Duncan, Dr.J, Baylor and the 2 greatest Malones.

I'll have Kobe in the next category, with Havlicek, Isiah, Pettit, Barkley, Stockton, Robinson, Barry, Cousy, Frazier. Even if Kobe is ranked below all these guys, he'll be #25. But I can't find any criteria according to which all of them are above him: Whether you rank them by titles, accolades, stats, impact to the game, Kobe will probably rank above the middle of this group.

[Allstar24]

Wait, he's stupid and a groupie because he feels Kobe is top 25, not 10? Talk about being a hypocrite. It's not like he called him lucky to be in the top 100 or something. That would be worthy of calling someone stupid. Not saying he's top 25.

Plenty of reasonable people consider Kobe to be top 25 or so rather than top 10. For you to get so upset about that shows that YOU'RE the groupie.
I don't consider Kobe to be top 10 or top 15, yet. But if you're going to say he's "maybe" top 25, then at least give us a list of the players who you think are more deserving of the 25 spots ahead of Kobe and explain the reasoning behind your list...maybe people will take your opinion seriously.

[nbastatus]

i believe kobe is already on the 15 top players list. i dont really count those guys from the 60s are pro..

[Psileas]

They were as pro as it got. They paved the road for the guys you call pro's.

[LAShow24]

lol @ Kobe being 11 all time. It's crazy. Might as well put LeBron and Wade there too. Also, it's certainly far from crazy to say Isiah was better than Kobe. Stop being blinded by (regular season) scoring streaks. Stop ignoring his dismal Finals performances. If you're going to take the good with Kobe, you HAVE to take the bad (namely his inconsistancy on large stages, and questionable bball IQ)

Kobe isn't top 11, but top 15-20 is true.

[BIZARRO]

Kobe isn't top 11, but top 15-20 is true.

So say you, however it IS of course arguable either way. I have no problem with someone putting a prime Moses Malone over Kobe for example.
But IMO, due to his skill, tenacity, will, talent, etc. I can only come up with 10 players I would draft over Kobe for a career to win titles. (11 if I count Lebron.)

Once again it could be off, or it could be fairly accurate. But those in here who speak with what is "true", etc. are inherently underrating certain players and overrating certain ones by the very nature of their "absolute" comments.

IMO, there are razor thin differences in all of these players from 10-20 for example. Therefore, the way one looks at them are at the height of subjectivity.

Jerry West may indeed be better than Kobe. But just don't tell me that he IS. :pimp:

[plowking]

I don't consider Kobe to be top 10 or top 15, yet. But if you're going to say he's "maybe" top 25, then at least give us a list of the players who you think are more deserving of the 25 spots ahead of Kobe and explain the reasoning behind your list...maybe people will take your opinion seriously.

I think Kobe is one of the greats.

Look in most threads, I praise him for his game. Both today and when he was an incredible scorer.

In another thread concerning Kobe and Lebron made by Poodle Bark, I mentioned that I still believe Kobe is the greatest in the game today. I rated Wade and Lebron ahead of him this season, though after watching Kobe all season, it really is obvious to me that he is still the best.

I said top 25 - maybe, as I didn't want to forget any of the legends. Though looking at the list I provided along with Psileas' list, I would rank him between 13 - 19 all time. One more ring and he may even move ahead into the top 10.

[Allstar24]

I said top 25 - maybe, as I didn't want to forget any of the legends. Though looking at the list I provided along with Psileas' list, I would rank him between 13 - 19 all time. One more ring and he may even move ahead into the top 10.
Thank you, that's all I was looking for. I wasn't trying to change your ranking of Kobe. I would accept your opinion even if you thought Kobe isn't Top 25, as long as you give some reasoning behind your statement.

[ThaRegul8r]

Jerry West may indeed be better than Kobe. But just don't tell me that he IS. :pimp:

Jerry West was putting up legendary Finals performances against the greatest defensive dynasty ever, featuring the G.O.A.T. defender, K.C. Jones and 8-time All-Defensive selection John Havlicek. Kobe put up one of the ten worst Finals performances ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst), and then as the MVP of the league—when it could finally be said it was his team—put up 25.7 points on 21.8 shot attempts and 40.5% shooting, 3.3 boards, 5 assists against the best defensive team of that year with the DPOY. West routinely performed better on the biggest stage against the best competition than Kobe has to this point.

Just sayin'.

:D

(Put the flamethrowers down. Look up to the smiley at the end.)

[sammdogg]

kobe isnt overrated or underrated.. i think hes right where he should be.

[KenneBell]

I think we should come back to this thread in 3 years when he starts talking retirement.

[gpfanz]

OVerated

[Lebron23]

Overrated by his Fans

Underrated by his Haters

[gpfanz]

Overrated by his Fans

Underrated by his Haters

Im a fan! :violin:

[Stiff #1]

He is overrated.

1. He

[glidedrxlr22]

He is higly underrated right now IMO. 4th in MVP ranking on ESPN and NBA.com? WTF is going on here? :confusedshrug:

Are you freaking kidding me!?!? GTFO!

[BIZARRO]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Jerry West was putting up legendary Finals performances against the greatest defensive dynasty ever, featuring the G.O.A.T. defender, K.C. Jones and 8-time All-Defensive selection John Havlicek. Kobe put up one of the ten worst Finals performances ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst), and then as the MVP of the league

[TmacsRockets]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Jerry West was putting up legendary Finals performances against the greatest defensive dynasty ever, featuring the G.O.A.T. defender, K.C. Jones and 8-time All-Defensive selection John Havlicek. Kobe put up one of the ten worst Finals performances ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst), and then as the MVP of the league

[TmacsRockets]

[QUOTE=Stiff #1]He is overrated.

1. He

[Stiff #1]

:applause:

The guy averaged 15 ppg on 36% in the 2000 finals. 22 ppg on 38% in 2004, 25 ppg on 40% in 2001 and 25 ppg on 41% in 2008.
Wow... he was that bad in the 2001 finals too?

I don't know if I've ever seen a worse "superstar" finals performer ever. Those numbers are just plain awful... period. Kobe fans can call me when he carries a scrub team to the finals like LeBron did or when he averages 35 ppg like Wade did. Those two are real superstars.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

over rated? under rated? it's all moot.
Kobe is a guaranteed 1st-ballot HOFer and is deemed one of greatest of all time.
That's it. That's enuf. Nothing more to be said.

[crisoner]

Kobe is overrated by his hardcore Kobe nut huger only fans....

And he is underrated by the idiotic Kobe haters....



With Kobe you get the best of the worst on both sides.

[guy]

:rockon:

And let's not forget a guy who wasn't even a good defender shut him down in the finals last year in Pierce.

In fact guys like Jalen Rose, Prince and Pierce all shut down Kobe in the finals. And none of them were really considered good defenders.

Prince isn't a good defender?

[TmacsRockets]

Prince isn't a good defender?

Not in 2004 he wasn't. Wade even showed why.

Pierce even said Prince defense was overrated and that it was only legit because both Wallace's were back there protecting him.

[Knoe Itawl]

:applause:

The guy averaged 15 ppg on 36% in the 2000 finals. 22 ppg on 38% in 2004, 25 ppg on 40% in 2001 and 25 ppg on 41% in 2008.

And that's why he's the most overrated player in NBA history. So his fanatics can come all they want with "81 points!!!" (against the Raps in the REGULAR season), "3 rings!!!" (with the most dominant low post presence of all time in his prime), "so and so GM and coach think he's the best!!!" and all the rest of it, but unless they can change those numbers, I don't want to hear it.

One series you can pass of as bad luck, or being uncharacteristically off. But FOUR series (out of 5) where he wilted on the NBA's BIGGEST stage? I don't want to hear any bullshyt. Not to mention that he was certainly nothing LEGENDARY against the Suns those two years, and had that monumental quit job in a GAME SEVEN.

That's what I mean that you have to take the GOOD with the BAD when it comes to Kobe. Wilting on the NBA's biggest stage like that is a big dent in his legacy, however his FANatical fans (and even some regular people) ignore it.

[Psileas]

The guy averaged 15 ppg on 36% in the 2000 finals. 22 ppg on 38% in 2004, 25 ppg on 40% in 2001 and 25 ppg on 41% in 2008.

In 2001 he didn't have 25 ppg on 40%. He was closer to 25 on 42%. And actually, he had 24.6 ppg/7.8 rpg/5.8 apg/1.4 bpg and, after Game 1, he forced Iverson into 48-121 FG shooting. Nice try spinning history, though. If that's a bad series because of his 42% shooting, then so were 3 of Larry Bird's 5 Finals' series (1981, 1985, 1987), since he shot below 45% in these (and 45% back then was no better than 42% today).
Against the Celtics he averaged 25.7 (40.5% FG)/4.7/5.0/2.7. Not a great series, but again, not many could do much better against a defensive powerhouse of the Celtics' caliber.


And let's not forget a guy who wasn't even a good defender shut him down in the finals last year in Pierce.

In fact guys like Jalen Rose, Prince and Pierce all shut down Kobe in the finals. And none of them were really considered good defenders.

Yeah, especially Prince was not considered a good defender, huh...BTW, have you heard something about "team defense"? If Prince wasn't considered a good defender for these Pistons, then only 1 would have a chance, Ben Wallace. Rasheed wasn't much better, if at all, Hamilton and Billups never were considered good defenders, Okur and Corlis weren't even close and neither were their bench warmers. So, the Pistons shouldn't really have any good defense, right? Well, guess: They had the 2nd best defensive rating in the league and were tied for 1st in least points received. Hmm, this couldn't only have been the ability of the Wallace "brothers", don't you think?
How about the '08 Celtics? Who other except Garnett was a very noted defender? No-one. Still, the Celtics were 1st in defensive rating and 2nd in least points received. Again, what happened? Good team defense happened.

So, no, it wasn't only Kobe who struggled against these "no good defenders". It was the vast majority of the league, including a lot of star players. Don't try to play the "not good individual defenders" card in such cases again.

[AItheAnswer3]

In 2001 he didn't have 25 ppg on 40%. He was closer to 25 on 42%. And actually, he had 24.6 ppg/7.8 rpg/5.8 apg/1.4 bpg and, after Game 1, he forced Iverson into 48-121 FG shooting. Nice try spinning history, though.
Kobe never guarded AI for the most part, only during some stretches like 2nd quarter of game 1. Tyronne Lue and Derek Fisher guarded AI for the most part. And in terms of shutting down Iverson, it was the great defensive job as a team. Not necessarily a single player. Though Lue totally shut him down in one of the games. I can't remember which one. About the FG %, Iverson shot 40.8 for the whole series but thats his career playoff average. He was always a 40% shooter. If I'm not mistaken, he also shot along those lines against the Raptors and Bucks.

[Psileas]

Kobe never guarded AI for the most part, only during some stretches like 2nd quarter of game 1. Tyronne Lue and Derek Fisher guarded AI for the most part. And in terms of shutting down Iverson, it was the great defensive job as a team. Not necessarily a single player. Though Lue totally shut him down in one of the games. I can't remember which one. About the FG %, Iverson shot 40.8 for the whole series but thats his career playoff average. He was always a 40% shooter. If I'm not mistaken, he also shot along those lines against the Raptors and Bucks.

You may be correct about Kobe not guarding Iverson for much of the time in the 2001 Finals (I do remember plays of him guarding AI, but they might have occured in other games). My point about his overall presense still stands, though: The only way to perceive Kobe's 2001 Finals series as bad is if you judge from certain points, like Game 1 or from his FG% or compare them to his previous 2001 playoff series or to the Finals' series of Jordan, Shaq, etc.

[OldSchoolBBall]

In 2001 he didn't have 25 ppg on 40%. He was closer to 25 on 42%. And actually, he had 24.6 ppg/7.8 rpg/5.8 apg/1.4 bpg and, after Game 1, he forced Iverson into 48-121 FG shooting.

Kobe didn't guard Iverson for more than 4 quarters total in that series, and I believe it was spread out over two games. He certainly wasn't on Iverson for the majority of the series.

[ThaRegul8r]

In 2001 he didn't have 25 ppg on 40%. He was closer to 25 on 42%. And actually, he had 24.6 ppg/7.8 rpg/5.8 apg/1.4 bpg and, after Game 1, he forced Iverson into 48-121 FG shooting. Nice try spinning history, though. If that's a bad series because of his 42% shooting, then so were 3 of Larry Bird's 5 Finals' series (1981, 1985, 1987), since he shot below 45% in these (and 45% back then was no better than 42% today).

Just had to comment on this. As far as Bird, the thing is, he was so versatile that if his shot wasn't falling he could do other things to bring about wins. For instance, in 1981 he had a bad-shooting series, but he also averaged 15.3 rebounds—just 1 rpg less than league rebounding champion Moses Malone that series, seven assists and 2.33 steals. Maxwell only won MVP that series because he shot better, but Bird did absolutely everything else better, and had 26 (11-20 FG)/13/5 in the deciding game. Bird could beat you in other ways besides scoring. Kobe hasn't been able to do that as of yet. It remains to be seen if he can.

Carry on.

[sammdogg]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Jerry West was putting up legendary Finals performances against the greatest defensive dynasty ever, featuring the G.O.A.T. defender, K.C. Jones and 8-time All-Defensive selection John Havlicek. Kobe put up one of the ten worst Finals performances ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst), and then as the MVP of the league

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=Stiff #1]He is overrated.

1. He

[Jacks3]

Wow... he was that bad in the 2001 finals too?

I don't know if I've ever seen a worse "superstar" finals performer ever. Those numbers are just plain awful... period. Kobe fans can call me when he carries a scrub team to the finals like LeBron did or when he averages 35 ppg like Wade did. Those two are real superstars.
2001 Finals:25/8/6/1.4/1.4 is not bad at all. LeBrons team managed to beat a depleted Wizards team and a 41 win Nets team and then got swept by the Spurs. Real impressive. BTW Kobe averaged 35 PPG for an entire season.

[Mdog1]

1.He wasn't pathetic in 2000. He had one bad game all series. Neither was he in 2008. 26/6/5/3 against the G.O.A.T defense is not pathetic even if it was on 41% shooting.. He's had one bad Finals series in his career.

2. He was a top 3 player in the entire league 2001 and 2002. Actually he doesn't get enough credit.

3. He's better then Lebron/Wade/Paul..Best defender out of the bunch. best shooter. Best scorer..

4. The difference between him and his rivals in terms of FG% is minimal. In fact, TS% and eFG% have him on about the same level and at times even better. Guess you forget when he lit up the 2nd best defensive team team in the league in 2008 (Spurs) or what he's done to other top defensive teams( Spurs again in 2001 and 2002.
You think the Celts defense was the GOAT? lol then I suppose that the Cavs this year is the GOAT to since it is better than the Celts.

[Stiff #1]

1.He wasn't pathetic in 2000. He had one bad game all series. Neither was he in 2008. 26/6/5/3 against the G.O.A.T defense is not pathetic even if it was on 41% shooting.. He's had one bad Finals series in his career.

2. He was a top 3 player in the entire league 2001 and 2002. Actually he doesn't get enough credit.

3. He's better then Lebron/Wade/Paul..Best defender out of the bunch. best shooter. Best scorer..

4. The difference between him and his rivals in terms of FG% is minimal. In fact, TS% and eFG% have him on about the same level and at times even better. Guess you forget when he lit up the 2nd best defensive team team in the league in 2008 (Spurs) or what he's done to other top defensive teams( Spurs again in 2001 and 2002.

1. He scored 15 ppg on worse than 40% shooting and won a damn ring. If people would view him as nothing more than a solid role player for that title, then we'd be fine. Since everyone wants to consider him a superstar when he won all 3 of those rings, I say he was pathetic. In the 2008 Finals, he was the leader of the team that blew the biggest halftime lead in NBA history AND the team that got blown out by 39 points in the final game (biggest final game blowout in NBA Finals history). He couldn't even light up a fatass like Paul Pierce and a very average defender like Ray Allen.

2. The top 3 players in the league during the 2001 and 2002 seasons were Shaq, Duncan and Garnett. Kobe might have been 4th or 5th, but no better than that.

3. LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Paul are in a different league than Kobe "27 ppg and 4 apg" Bryant. These guys know how to SUCCESSFULLY lead bad teams. Whenever Kobe had a bad team, he got bounced in the first round by a team that couldn't play any defense. Chris Paul turned David West from a nobody into a borderline all-star and Tyson Chandler from a complete scrub to a double-double machine. LeBron James and Dwyane Wade define "dominant" unlike perimeter player the game has seen SINCE Jordan. Kobe Bryant is a streak scorer and nothing more.

4. TS% and eFG% are useless stats. FG% includes the exact number of shots a player misses. Misses = bad for the team and good for the opposing team. Kobe = misses a lot.

[Psileas]

[QUOTE]Just had to comment on this. As far as Bird, the thing is, he was so versatile that if his shot wasn't falling he could do other things to bring about wins. For instance, in 1981 he had a bad-shooting series, but he also averaged 15.3 rebounds

[Jacks3]

You think the Celts defense was the GOAT? lol then I suppose that the Cavs this year is the GOAT to since it is better than the Celts.
Going by the stats the Celtics last year were number #1 in history.

[sammdogg]

3. LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Paul are in a different league than Kobe "27 ppg and 4 apg" Bryant. These guys know how to SUCCESSFULLY lead bad teams. Whenever Kobe had a bad team, he got bounced in the first round by a team that couldn't play any defense. Chris Paul turned David West from a nobody into a borderline all-star and Tyson Chandler from a complete scrub to a double-double machine. LeBron James and Dwyane Wade define "dominant" unlike perimeter player the game has seen SINCE Jordan. Kobe Bryant is a streak scorer and nothing more.


:oldlol: u clearly have no credibility at all

[ronnymac]

Underrated if you're gonna say it was all shaq that got them those championships during the early 2000's. overrated if you think he is the GOAT or is better then jordan.

[bdreason]

I don't know if I've ever seen a worse "superstar" finals performer ever.


You must have missed LBJ's performance against the Spurs a couple years back.

[Mdog1]

Going by the stats the Celtics last year were number #1 in history.
Personally I think the Pistons D of 04 was the best of all time. Maybe not there can be different opinions I guess. I guess I should have looked at the stats, but it takes forever on this computer. I was going by more on the looks of the D (Pistons were amazing).

[Stiff #1]

You must have missed LBJ's performance against the Spurs a couple years back.
You must have missed LeBron's age and the teammates he was playing with. Or maybe you missed the 48/9/7 Game 5 of the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals against the best defensive team in the East.

29 of Cleveland's last 30 points he scored, the only 1 non-LeBron point coming from a Drew Gooden free throw (Drew Gooden is one of the scrubs he carried to the Finals).

25 of Cleveland's last 25 points were all his. Nobody else did sh-t. Pavlovic almost SINGLE-HANDEDLY lost the game with his worthless FG attempts that resulted in offensive fouls, bricks and more turnovers.

What was Kobe doing at 22? Being carried by The Diesel to deep playoff runs.

LeBron James is 10 years away from becoming the second best player we have ever seen. He'll be #2 all-time when all is said and done. Kobe will be lucky to crack top 10.

[sammdogg]

What was Kobe doing at 22? Being carried by The Diesel to deep playoff runs.


Kobe was wearing a ring at 22. LBJ is still empty handed.

[bdreason]

What was Kobe doing at 22?


Winning an NBA Championship.


edit - hahah poster above me beat me to it!

[Stiff #1]

Kobe was wearing a ring at 22. LBJ is still empty handed.
Winning a ring with what kind of stats? 15 ppg on 36% shooting. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

1. He scored 15 ppg on worse than 40% shooting and won a damn ring. If people would view him as nothing more than a solid role player for that title, then we'd be fine. Since everyone wants to consider him a superstar when he won all 3 of those rings, I say he was pathetic. In the 2008 Finals, he was the leader of the team that blew the biggest halftime lead in NBA history AND the team that got blown out by 39 points in the final game (biggest final game blowout in NBA Finals history). He couldn't even light up a fatass like Paul Pierce and a very average defender like Ray Allen.

2. The top 3 players in the league during the 2001 and 2002 seasons were Shaq, Duncan and Garnett. Kobe might have been 4th or 5th, but no better than that.

3. LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Paul are in a different league than Kobe "27 ppg and 4 apg" Bryant. These guys know how to SUCCESSFULLY lead bad teams. Whenever Kobe had a bad team, he got bounced in the first round by a team that couldn't play any defense. Chris Paul turned David West from a nobody into a borderline all-star and Tyson Chandler from a complete scrub to a double-double machine. LeBron James and Dwyane Wade define "dominant" unlike perimeter player the game has seen SINCE Jordan. Kobe Bryant is a streak scorer and nothing more.

4. TS% and eFG% are useless stats. FG% includes the exact number of shots a player misses. Misses = bad for the team and good for the opposing team. Kobe = misses a lot.
1. Most people consider 2001 as the year Kobe finally became a superstar actually. Sorry, but Kobe only has one bad game in the 2000 Finals. No way can one bad game make a pathetic series. Also basketball is a team game. You can't blame Kobe solely for what happend in games 4 and 6. And as was previously mentioned the Celtics played great team defense..even when he was getting by Ray Allen and PP he had another guy waiting for him. Yet he still put up 26/6/5/3.

2. Kobe was better then Garnett in 2001 and 2002.

3. 27/6/4 in 35 MPG is bad now?lol. Only reason he isn't putting up monster numbers is because he now has a actual team and is playing less minutes. Dude has put up statlines like 35/5/5, 32/6/5/, 30/7/6...:oldlol: at giving all the credit to CP3. I love how you neglect to mention that those Suns team were some of the best and most talented in the league while the Lakers were one of the least talented. Wade/LeBron/CP3 would have fared no better. What has Wade done with a bad team? Lead them to a 18-15 record so far? How is that any different from Kobe in 05-06 and 06-07? CP3 has never succesfully done anything anything with a bad team. His 07-08 Hornets were far from a bad supporting cast. They were certainly much better thn the teams Kobe lead in 06/07. And Lebron's teams always played excellent defense and rebounded. And Kobe is far from just a scorer. Guy has made 8 All-defensive teams. Multiple 5+ assist seasons. Multiple 6+ rebound seasons. In fact, he's arguably the best all-around player in the league.

4. TS% accounts for threes and free-throws. eFG% adjusts for the extra value of threes. Both are very good stats. Besides the difference in purely FG% between LeBron/WADE/Paul and Kobe is minimal.

[Jacks3]

You must have missed LeBron's age and the teammates he was playing with. Or maybe you missed the 48/9/7 Game 5 of the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals against the best defensive team in the East.

29 of Cleveland's last 30 points he scored, the only 1 non-LeBron point coming from a Drew Gooden free throw (Drew Gooden is one of the scrubs he carried to the Finals).

25 of Cleveland's last 25 points were all his. Nobody else did sh-t. Pavlovic almost SINGLE-HANDEDLY lost the game with his worthless FG attempts that resulted in offensive fouls, bricks and more turnovers.

What was Kobe doing at 22? Being carried by The Diesel to deep playoff runs.

LeBron James is 10 years away from becoming the second best player we have ever seen. He'll be #2 all-time when all is said and done. Kobe will be lucky to crack top 10.
Putting up 29/7/6/2 in the playoffs en route to his 2nd straight championship.

[Psileas]

:oldlol: at BULLS suddenly turning from a Kobe jockrider and a LeBron/Wade hater to a Kobe hater and a LeBron/Wade jockrider in order to hide his identity. Like a murderer who is trying to hide his traces by running and yelling "I didn't kill the man at Smith Street 13! I didn't kill the man at Smith Street 13!". What a phony. :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Sorry, but Kobe only has one bad game in the 2000 Finals. No way can one bad game make a pathetic series.

Uhh, no.

Game 5 - 8 points, 4-20 FG (20% shooting)
Game 6 - 26 points, 8-27 FG (29.6% shooting)

What you should have said is that he only ha one good game in the series (game 4), and even that wasn't great (14-27 FG for 28 points).

[sammdogg]

Uhh, no.

Game 5 - 8 points, 4-20 FG (20% shooting)
Game 6 - 26 points, 8-27 FG (29.6% shooting)

What you should have said is that he only ha one good game in the series (game 4), and even that wasn't great (14-27 FG for 28 points).
well you cant argue with results :D

[Jacks3]

Uhh, no.

Game 5 - 8 points, 4-20 FG (20% shooting)
Game 6 - 26 points, 8-27 FG (29.6% shooting)

What you should have said is that he only ha one good game in the series (game 4), and even that wasn't great (14-27 FG for 28 points).
26/10/4/2/1 with only 1 TO and an excellent defensive game in the clinching game of the NBA Finals certainly isn't a bad game. And I think game 4 was a great game when you consider what he did in the 4th quarter and overtime.

[OldSchoolBBall]

26/10/4/2/1 with only 1 TO and an excellent defensive game in the clinching game of the NBA Finals certainly isn't a bad game.

26 points on 8-27 FG is sh!t, sorry. Anyone except you would agree with that. What "excellent defensive game" did he have? Rose and Miller (the guys he was guarding) both had better games than Kobe did (29/25 points on far better shooting than Kobe).

[sammdogg]

26 points on 8-27 FG is sh!t, sorry. Anyone except you would agree with that. What "excellent defensive game" did he have? Rose and Miller (the guys he was guarding) both had better games than Kobe did (29/25 points on far better shooting than Kobe).
yet... they have no ring. :hammertime:

[OldSchoolBBall]

yet... they have no ring. :hammertime:

He said that Kobe had an excellent defensive game when he had nothing of the sort in order to act like it offset his atrocious 8-27 shooting. Stick to the comments being made.

[Stiff #1]

1. Most people consider 2001 as the year Kobe finally became a superstar actually. Sorry, but Kobe only has one bad game in the 2000 Finals. No way can one bad game make a pathetic series. Also basketball is a team game. You can't blame Kobe solely for what happend in games 4 and 6. And as was previously mentioned the Celtics played great team defense..even when he was getting by Ray Allen and PP he had another guy waiting for him. Yet he still put up 26/6/5/3.

2. Kobe was better then Garnett in 2001 and 2002.

3. 27/6/4 in 35 MPG is bad now?lol. Only reason he isn't putting up monster numbers is because he now has a actual team and is playing less minutes. Dude has put up statlines like 35/5/5, 32/6/5/, 30/7/6... at giving all the credit to CP3. I love how you neglect to mention that those Suns team were some of the best and most talented in the league while the Lakers were one of the least talented. Wade/LeBron/CP3 would have fared no better. What has Wade done with a bad team? Lead them to a 18-15 record so far? How is that any different from Kobe in 05-06 and 06-07? CP3 has never succesfully done anything anything with a bad team. His 07-08 Hornets were far from a bad supporting cast. They were certainly much better thn the teams Kobe lead in 06/07. And Lebron's teams always played excellent defense and rebounded. And Kobe is far from just a scorer. Guy has made 8 All-defensive teams. Multiple 5+ assist seasons. Multiple 6+ rebound seasons. In fact, he's arguably the best all-around player in the league.

4. TS% accounts for threes and free-throws. eFG% adjusts for the extra value of threes. Both are very good stats. Besides the difference in purely FG% between LeBron/WADE/Paul and Kobe is minimal.

1. Kobe was no superstar in 2001. Even guys like Vince Carter and Grant Hill were better. Also, it wasn

[BULLZ]

Looks like someone ripped the Kobe posters off the wall of mom's basement!

[Jacks3]

26 points on 8-27 FG is sh!t, sorry. Anyone except you would agree with that. What "excellent defensive game" did he have? Rose and Miller (the guys he was guarding) both had better games than Kobe did (29/25 points on far better shooting than Kobe).
Nope. 26/10/4/2/1 in the series clinching game of the NBA Finals is not a bad game.:oldlol: at Jordan groupies.