Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

[ndPac]

Agree or disagree?

He has the perfect combo of size, speed, and strength, and has the best hands in the league. I have rarely even seen this guy drop a ball that is thrown to him, anything near him instantly is caught no matter where it's thrown or who is on him.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/m2pac3j/Fitz_gallery_600.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIAfKI0RZRc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP3evsV1jRE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a-lMkPD31A

[lilmarcgasol]

Wrong. His name is Randy Moss. Randy Moss is the second greatest reciever of all time, second to Jerry Rice.

[HaNdLe ThE RoCk]

He's nasty

[ndPac]

Wrong. His name is Randy Moss. Randy Moss is the second greatest reciever of all time, second to Jerry Rice.

True. Moss is amazing, but I think he is slightly past his prime. I'de say right now Fitz is slightly better. Plus all Moss really does is catch the deep ball thats it.

[TakitoEspanoza]

No hes not, Andre Johnson of the Texans is better, slightly.

[lilmarcgasol]

Moss, Andre, Steve Smith, Fitz, I think they are top 4 any is arguably number 1.

[BrooklynZoo]

mr go git it

dude is nuts, but the consensus seems to be andre johnson right now. havent really seen much of him

[TakitoEspanoza]

Moss is not as good people think... Look at his 2 years in Oakland and this year with Cassel.

Of course he had the monster year with Brady, but that was because of Brady. Moss barely had over 1000 yards this year.

Andre Johnson had 115 catches and over 1575 yards receiving with Matt Shaub and Sage ROSENFELS as his QB.

Moss is not in the top 5 today.... Steve Smith,Fitz,,Calvin Johnson,Andre Johnson,Brandon Marshall are all better than Moss.

Steve Smith had Jake Delhomme 78 for 1421 in 14 games

Calvin Johnson had Dave Orlosky and Daunte Culpepper 78 for 1331

Fitz has to also contend with Boldin for catches and had 96 for over 1400

Moss had 69 for 1008... pathetic.

[HaNdLe ThE RoCk]

I'd take Fitz over Andre Johnson

[InspiredLebowski]

No. John Standeford.

[lilojmayo]

http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/terrell-owens.jpg


he still is IMO.

1,000 10 TDs

prolly going to be the GOAT TD WR when its all said and done he has about 50 to catch rice so in about 4 to 5 years of play.


Cowboys were a broken team at the end of the seasson nobody was on the right page.

look at their 44-6 loss against philly they beat them earlier in the season.


TO will be back better than eveer next year.

[lilmarcgasol]

http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/terrell-owens.jpg


he still is IMO.

1,000 10 TDs

prolly going to be the GOAT TD WR when its all said and done he has about 50 to catch rice so in about 4 to 5 years of play.


Cowboys were a broken team at the end of the seasson nobody was on the right page.

look at their 44-6 loss against philly they beat them earlier in the season.


TO will be back better than eveer next year.
you goddamn moron TO is the biggest whining bitch ever to play the game, he has almost destroyed as many teams as he has TD passes. goddamn get that ish outta here son

[TakitoEspanoza]

http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/terrell-owens.jpg


he still is IMO.

1,000 10 TDs

prolly going to be the GOAT TD WR when its all said and done he has about 50 to catch rice so in about 4 to 5 years of play.


Cowboys were a broken team at the end of the seasson nobody was on the right page.

look at their 44-6 loss against philly they beat them earlier in the season.


TO will be back better than eveer next year.


uhm no... he is not even in the top 20 now.

He would be the #3 WR on the Cardinals, maybe.

[ndPac]

I am a fan of T.O., and used to think he was the best wr in the league, but I definitely think he has fallen off a bit. He does drop many balls, and will have games where he is almost invisible and does nothing. True they have offense problems at times but it's no excuse. I'm still a fan of him but no way do I consider him #1 anymore..I'de say 5-8 area for him.

Yea Andre Johnson is a beast as well. And definitely Calvin Johnson. Fitz, Andre, and Calvin are the future of wr in the league for sure.

Steve Smith does amazing things for his size. He's top 5 for sure and given night he can have a huge game.

Brandon Marshall started off having a great year, but kinda disappeared for a little bit too. It seemed like Eddie Royal was getting more looks than him towards the end of the season unfortunately, but of course that is due to defenses keying on him.

[JtotheIzzo]

uhm no... he is not even in the top 20 now.

He would be the #3 WR on the Cardinals, maybe.

I'd take Breaston...lol...lilojmayo wtf kid?

Fitzgerald has sh*tty speed BTW OP. but yeah he is right now, today, the best.

DO you guys just for once stop to think how Steve Smith NEVER in his career had guys like Warner (MVP), Brady (MVP), Romo (excellent QB), McNabb etc.

Smith is still only 40 yards behind Fitzgerald for the most receiving yards in the last 4 years, while playing 4 less games.

Wrap that around your head for second.
I pray and hope he has a good QB throwing him the ball before his career is done. He makes Delhomme look like a half decent QB.

[JtotheIzzo]

[QUOTE=

[statman32]

Coming into this year, Boldin was always my choice as the best wide receiver on the Cardinals. But this year, Fitz has eliminated any flaws in his game. He lost a little bit of weight, he worked on not fumbling the ball, he is just flat out sick. It's pretty much automatic for him.

The Cardinals have sick WR 1-3 and all of them fit very nicely with each other. Not to mention a sleeper in Early Doucet, who I think could be a very productive number 2 guy.

he didn't make Delhomo look too good yesterday.

It's not Smith's fault Delhomme is an idiot.

Smith can't control how Delhomme passes, he can only make exceptional adjustments every time that idiot over throws a pass and Smith just goes out and gets it.

[steve]

Coming into this year, Boldin was always my choice as the best wide receiver on the Cardinals. But this year, Fitz has eliminated any flaws in his game. He lost a little bit of weight, he worked on not fumbling the ball, he is just flat out sick. It's pretty much automatic for him.
Well, in fairness, Boldin was showing signs of taking the next step (so to speak) until he broke his face, which is obviously had trouble recovering from (but still). Although you're a Cardinals fan (I think), so I'm sure you've stuck up for the guy enough and took that into account (I swear that's snark free).

[dware94]

uhm no... he is not even in the top 20 now.

He would be the #3 WR on the Cardinals, maybe.

k you are an IDIOT. owens would obviously not be #3 on the cardinals, easily first or second.. Lilojmayo isnt too far off, hes still one of the most dominant receivers in the game, even at the age of 35

[TakitoEspanoza]

k you are an IDIOT. owens would obviously not be #3 on the cardinals, easily first or second.. Lilojmayo isnt too far off, hes still one of the most dominant receivers in the game, even at the age of 35


:rolleyes: Stop drinking the kool-aid, homer.

[dware94]

:rolleyes: Stop drinking the kool-aid, homer.

thats all you can say because you obviously dont know anything about football:violin:

[TakitoEspanoza]

thats all you can say because you obviously dont know anything about football:violin:


Terrell owens over his past 21 games is averging PER GAME

4 catches for 65 yards.

If that is dominant, then :applause:

and that includes games of 213 yards, 103 and 156

hes had games of

3 catches 21 yards
2 catches 37 yards
2 catches 17 yards
4 catches 36 yards
2 catches 31 yards
5 catches 33 yards
5 cathces 36 yards
5 catches 38 yards
3 catches 32 yards
3 catches 38 yards

Take out the big games, hes at

Smith, Andre, Boldin, Fitz all better receivers then Owens, any fool knows that.

[TakitoEspanoza]

Take out those 3 big games, hes averaging 4 catches 50 yards per game for the other 18.

[TakitoEspanoza]

[QUOTE=

[InspiredLebowski]

This thread reminds me just how far Braylon Edwards has fallen

[steve]

This thread reminds me just how far Braylon Edwards has fallen
How many passes did he end up dropping this year?

[dware94]

Terrell owens over his past 21 games is averging PER GAME

4 catches for 65 yards.

If that is dominant, then :applause:

and that includes games of 213 yards, 103 and 156

hes had games of

3 catches 21 yards
2 catches 37 yards
2 catches 17 yards
4 catches 36 yards
2 catches 31 yards
5 catches 33 yards
5 cathces 36 yards
5 catches 38 yards
3 catches 32 yards
3 catches 38 yards

Take out the big games, hes at

yeah romo was also playing with a broken pinky for most of those games. its not fair to judge him on that, look at his stats from 2007-2008, where romo wasnt injured.

[TakitoEspanoza]

yeah romo was also playing with a broken pinky for most of those games. its not fair to judge him on that, look at his stats from 2007-2008, where romo wasnt injured.

lmfao

the 213 game and 103 was when Romo had the "broken pinky"

You have no clue.

[ndPac]

[QUOTE=

[Randy]

Ftiz, Boldin, Marshall, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Moss, Steve Smith, Jennings, Calvin, Roddy White are all better than TO.

And I'd still take guys like Dwayne Bowe, Colston, Antonio Bryant and Hines Ward over him any day.

I don't know where to put Braylon right now :ohwell:

[-primetime-]

Take out those 3 big games, hes averaging 4 catches 50 yards per game for the other 18.
???

let's take out all of every WR's "big games" then...

Owens is still a top WR in the NFL...he even had good numbers this season regarless of Romo being hurt...

If anyone wants to just completely throw him out of the conversation because of his supposed "whining" then fine...whatever.

In no way what so ever this year was Owen's lower numbers due to anything that he did...he was the same as last year where he had one of the greatest year's of his career and broke all Dallas WR records.



Moss is the best WR in the NFL and I am betting that both him and Owens will show to prove as such next year if both of their QBs are healthy...

[-primetime-]

Ftiz, Boldin, Marshall, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Moss, Steve Smith, Jennings, Calvin, Roddy White are all better than TO.

And I'd still take guys like Dwayne Bowe, Colston, Antonio Bryant and Hines Ward over him any day.

I don't know where to put Braylon right now :ohwell:
Owens is now officially underrated...

[canadianballer]

oh my god :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

:roll: :oldlol:


Ftiz, Boldin, Marshall, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Moss, Steve Smith, Jennings, Calvin, Roddy White are all better than TO.

And I'd still take guys like Dwayne Bowe, Colston, Antonio Bryant and Hines Ward over him any day.

I don't know where to put Braylon right now :ohwell:

[GOBB]

Yall tripping downing Larry Fitz speed.

And Jennings over T.Owens? Last time you had a physical where they checked your vision? The saying "Long overdue" applies.

I think Larry Fitz is the best WR however I acknowledge as should any sane and rational fan there are a couple who can be argued the best. Fitz beasted yesterday but Steve Smith is a beast in his own right.

And the Moss hate in this thread is funny. Moss is the reason Tom Brady had the great statisical year he put up, which will be used to catipult him into the QB GODS of the NFL history. Moss is the reason Wes Welker caught so many balls this year while Matt Cassel is franchised and a sought out QB who will be getting paid. No coincidence here but yeah all the crap you typed about him? Yeah it sticks. Uh huh (sarcasm).

And I'd only take a handful of WRs over T.Owens not based on talent/skill but moreso character/attitude. T.Owens is a drama queen and I've supported/defended his action until his flare ups in Dallas. Its similar to Plax where dude is a playmaker and would have been the reason NYG could have defeated Philly today. But would you take him or Roddy White in Atlanta? I'll take Roddy. I dont care/want to put up with paying big bucks to a WR who acts like a dumbass. And dont get me wrong there ARE situations where I would.

Example? Eagles. I'd put up with a headcase given the fact I cant GET the handful of WRs i would take over him. But I'm left with the WRs i have on the team. Make sense? It should.

[Skywalker]

Antonio Bryant over Terrell Owens.....

[GOBB]

Antonio Bryant over T.Owens??? Why stop there. Say Berriman over T.Owens.

[XxNeXuSxX]

http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/terrell-owens.jpg


he still is IMO.

1,000 10 TDs

prolly going to be the GOAT TD WR when its all said and done he has about 50 to catch rice so in about 4 to 5 years of play.


Cowboys were a broken team at the end of the seasson nobody was on the right page.

look at their 44-6 loss against philly they beat them earlier in the season.


TO will be back better than eveer next year.

No.

[-primetime-]

I put character/locker room cancer/ect. aside when doing rankings like this...


This year alone has completely changed my views on the term "locker room cancer"...

that term is now completely overrated to me...

Steve Smith beat the piss out of his own CB during training camp...missed 2 games...yet somehow Owens is the real cancer for "whining" about getting catches...

And I agree with Owens last statement about how if he made the "put a bullet in him" comment about Carter that every NFL fan in the world would view Owens as a complete mental head case that needs to be put in a hospital...

Him and Romo seem to get along fine...they claim to get along fine...I DON'T THINK THEY ARE ACTING...both act clueless as to where ESPN comes up with these things...and I will believe them until I see otherwise


Everyone is waiting for the "Owens explosion"!!!...Where was this "explosion" when his former team beat the hell out of him and knocked him out of the post season???...If that doesn't cause a T.O. explosion then nothing will...

[lefthook00]

T.O. is better than all of them(fact), they are just having better seasons(fact).

Fitz is the jumpball master this year.

[GOBB]

T.Owens can be ranked high when you do WR lists. Doesnt mean you have to take him. T.Owens can be ranked over Brandon Marshall and rightfully so when broken down. But while you put Owens issues aside? I'm not. I'll take Brandon Marshall. I'll only put Owens drama aside when I have no other option. Meaning my current WR core lacks big playmakers and I cant get my hands on other stud WRs. But T.Owens is available.

[-primetime-]

T.Owens can be ranked high when you do WR lists. Doesnt mean you have to take him. T.Owens can be ranked over Brandon Marshall and rightfully so when broken down. But while you put Owens issues aside? I'm not. I'll take Brandon Marshall. I'll only put Owens drama aside when I have no other option. Meaning my current WR core lacks big playmakers and I cant get my hands on other stud WRs. But T.Owens is available.
well if we are just talking about who we would "take" then why don't we just go ahead and throw age into the mix then...???

D.Jackson & E. Royal > Owens & Moss

[GOBB]

well if we are just talking about who we would "take" then why don't we just go ahead and throw age into the mix then...???

D.Jackson & E. Royal > Owens & Moss

This thread is talkin about who is the best WR, who are the best WRs

My post talked about the best WR, who are the best WRs BUT I also said I can see why one would take certain WRs over another WR that may be better.

Smarten up. You're taking arguments and getting them all wrapped around your fingers like a spider web. This thread isnt about who we would take.

[Attila]

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h161/bigtim1763/Calvin-Johnson-transfermodi.png

Just get him a good QB.

[InspiredLebowski]

Calvin Johnson may well be the best WR in the NFL, as far as being a "playmaker" goes anyway, haven't seen enough Lions games to see his blocking and route running. Kid put up 1300 yards and 12 scores with Dan "I don't know where the back of the endzone is" Orlovsky.

[-primetime-]

This thread is talkin about who is the best WR, who are the best WRs

My post talked about the best WR, who are the best WRs BUT I also said I can see why one would take certain WRs over another WR that may be better.

Smarten up. You're taking arguments and getting them all wrapped around your fingers like a spider web. This thread isnt about who we would take.
that was my point...

I never brought up who I would take...you did.


Moss and Owens are both top 5...no question

I don't care if others have Fitz, Smith, Andre over Owens...

putting those WR's skills over Moss's though is pushing it...

Moss has made the most amazing catches I have ever seen...even more amazing that Fitz's...his hands are just as good if not better...

His break away speed destroys Fitz's...

[GOBB]

that was my point...

I never brought up who I would take...you did.

You're moronic to say the least...


And I'd only take a handful of WRs over T.Owens not based on talent/skill but moreso character/attitude. T.Owens is a drama queen and I've supported/defended his action until his flare ups in Dallas. Its similar to Plax where dude is a playmaker and would have been the reason NYG could have defeated Philly today. But would you take him or Roddy White in Atlanta? I'll take Roddy. I dont care/want to put up with paying big bucks to a WR who acts like a dumbass. And dont get me wrong there ARE situations where I would.

Example? Eagles. I'd put up with a headcase given the fact I cant GET the handful of WRs i would take over him. But I'm left with the WRs i have on the team. Make sense? It should.



Moss and Owens are both top 5...no question

Arguable. You cant acknowledge that? You arent a true football fan. But since you are Captain grab stat link Man. I at times forget who I am replying too.


I don't care if others have Fitz, Smith, Andre over Owens...

putting those WR's skills over Moss's though is pushing it...

Wow you're talkin about skills? Thats rich coming from you. One who basis who is better based on stats. Thats incredibly funny.

You're the same stooge who argued Donald Driver was a top 10 WR based on him being within the top 10 statiscal category for WRs via yahoo.com/nfl.

Now you're typing skills.



Moss has made the most amazing catches I have ever seen...even more amazing that Fitz's...his hands are just as good if not better...

Moss hands is not as good as Fitz. You're just a groupie is all. Moss left you with a hard on so you're forever grateful.


His break away speed destroys Fitz's...

Joey Galloway break away speed kills guys 10-12yrs younger than him. :confusedshrug:

Fitz doesnt have to be Randy Moss speed. He is fast enough to score Tds.

[-primetime-]

-you just proved my point by quoting yourself...YOU brought up taking others...not me.

- I have already acknowledged that I won't bother argueing Owens vs. Fitz/Smith/Andre...is that not enough???...you need me to include Marshall now as well????...no way.

-I have no idea where you got that Drinver comment???...WTF???....I have NEVER said he was top 10 and I don't use yahoo for anything...YOU should know that...:oldlol:

-your comment on Moss's hands vs. Fits's hands had no substance at all...care to explain???

- Galloway is a bad comparison...might as well have said Rocket Ishmail if you are looking for someine with just speed.

[GOBB]

-you just proved my point by quoting yourself...YOU brought up taking others...not me.

And YOU replied that you dont use character/attitude/cancer issues when doing rankings. I never did so. So your post was silly. But your mind isnt capable of seeing that it seems.


- I have already acknowledged that I won't bother argueing Owens vs. Fitz/Smith/Andre...is that not enough???...you need me to include Marshall now as well????...no way.

Marshall? Who said that? You said Moss/Owens top 5 no question. I said its arguable that one of the two isnt top 5 no question. And that could be T.Owens.


-I have no idea where you got that Drinver comment???...WTF???....I have NEVER said he was top 10 and I don't use yahoo for anything...YOU should know that...:oldlol:

You're a f*cking liar. You used WR leader stats to prove Donald Driver was a top 10 WR. I asked who uses STATS LEADERS to determine WR rankings. I should do a search but that topic is probably deleted off ISH (ie fallen off the pg limit here). :no:


-your comment on Moss's hands vs. Fits's hands had no substance at all...care to explain???

Check dropped passes for one way to look at it.


- Galloway is a bad comparison...might as well have said Rocket Ishmail if you are looking for someine with just speed.

How is it a bad example? You constantly harp on Randy Moss speed blowing Larry Fitz speed out the water. How relevant is that when it comes to who is a better WR? Randy is faster than Larry does not justify he is better. Larry hands blows Randy out the frame. So now what? We're even.

Moss is faster
Larry has better hands

I dont see why you constantly use Moss speed in discussions "omg Moss speed is 10 times faster than Larrys!". So what? That means Larry cant be better than Randy Moss? :oldlol:

You damn sure didnt see me say Larry is bigger/stronger than Moss its not even close! Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! :hammerhead:

:ohwell:

[-primetime-]

And YOU replied that you dont use character/attitude/cancer issues when doing rankings. I never did so. So your post was silly. But your mind isnt capable of seeing that it seems.



Marshall? Who said that? You said Moss/Owens top 5 no question. I said its arguable that one of the two isnt top 5 no question. And that could be T.Owens.



You're a f*cking liar. You used WR leader stats to prove Donald Driver was a top 10 WR. I asked who uses STATS LEADERS to determine WR rankings. I should do a search but that topic is probably deleted off ISH (ie fallen off the pg limit here). :no:



Check dropped passes for one way to look at it.



How is it a bad example? You constantly harp on Randy Moss speed blowing Larry Fitz speed out the water. How relevant is that when it comes to who is a better WR? Randy is faster than Larry does not justify he is better. Larry hands blows Randy out the frame. So now what? We're even.

Moss is faster
Larry has better hands

I dont see why you constantly use Moss speed in discussions "omg Moss speed is 10 times faster than Larrys!". So what? That means Larry cant be better than Randy Moss? :oldlol:

You damn sure didnt see me say Larry is bigger/stronger than Moss its not even close! Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! :hammerhead:

:ohwell:
-If you are talking about last season then I might have said something about Driver...I don't remember...All I know is that I never said that THIS year.

-the Galloway comparison is bad here because he doesn't have freak hands like Moss or Fitz...yes he was fast as hell, but he never made freak plays on the ball like those two.


when comparing Moss and Fitz I would like to use video footage...but you won't watch it...

Fitz is almost like Dennis Rodman in football pads...jump up and get the rebound, no matter who is around...only due to his slow speed he is always in a crowd and never has the chance to break away after the catch...Moss has the same freakish hands plus freakish speed on top of that...HE JUST SMASHED EVERY RECORD ONE YEAR AGO...NOT FIVE YEARS AGO...LAST YEAR.


(btw...Fitz is amazing to say the least...just in case I come off as though I don' understand that)


btw, Fitz is bigger and stronger than Rice and it's not even close...if you can bring up Galloway's speed, then I cn bring up Rice's size.

[canadianballer]

alright ur going a bit overboard here... u can hate on TO whatever u want , say hes a b*tch or whatever but at the end of the day he always brings it to play so u have fun with brandon marshall


T.Owens can be ranked high when you do WR lists. Doesnt mean you have to take him. T.Owens can be ranked over Brandon Marshall and rightfully so when broken down. But while you put Owens issues aside? I'm not. I'll take Brandon Marshall. I'll only put Owens drama aside when I have no other option. Meaning my current WR core lacks big playmakers and I cant get my hands on other stud WRs. But T.Owens is available.

[pete's montreux]

As of right now, I would take Andre over any WR in the entire league. And that includes Moss.

[GOBB]

alright ur going a bit overboard here... u can hate on TO whatever u want , say hes a b*tch or whatever but at the end of the day he always brings it to play so u have fun with brandon marshall

Nope. The point you seemed to miss is you can sign/get a stud WR who makes big plays with a lesser headache. If Brandon Marshall and T.Owens are free agents this offseason and my team has money to sign either one? I'll sign Brandon Marshall because he is a stud WR who can make plays. And while T.Owens would be ranked higher on my WR list over Brandon Marshall? I rather have Marshall without the headache because at the end of the day? Both WRs would produce regardless. One is just gonna make you OD on advil. And his last name aint Marshall.

I dont see why that point eluded you.

If someone said "I'll sign Hines Ward over T.Owens if both were free agents and my team needed a WR". I wouldnt slam that person nor the franchise if they went that route. Hines Ward is a damn good WR and for what he brings that may not show up in "stats" his impact isnt considerably lesser than T.Owens. And T.Owens would be ranked on a WR listing over Hines Ward. Doesnt mean you have to take him according to it as a team. TOwens with his greatness brings baggage. Do you wanna carry the bags? If not you have a good option in Hines Ward.

Now if this was T.Owens or Bernard Berriman? I like Berriman no doubt but give me T.Owens and his headache.

Now if this was T.Owens and 2nd tier Wrs like Kevin Curtis in free agency and I needed a WR? T.Owens is who I take.

But if Brandon Marshall, Hines Ward, T.Owens are available? I dont care if Owens is ranked better than both. I want the guy with the less headache because the impact ability between all 3 isnt significant.

[-primetime-]

http://media.myfoxboston.com/sports/patriots/images/bradymoss.jpg

"PSSTT!!!..Hey Tom...come over here!!!...you gotta read this sh*t man...HAHAHA!!!...It only takes them one year to forget!!!"

[GOBB]

-If you are talking about last season then I might have said something about Driver...I don't remember...All I know is that I never said that THIS year.

It wasnt this season. My point is your criteria when arguing things are player rankings changes. You're simply not consistent. That was my point.


-the Galloway comparison is bad here because he doesn't have freak hands like Moss or Fitz...yes he was fast as hell, but he never made freak plays on the ball like those two.

My argument is is Moss speed being better than Fitz doesnt automatically put him over the top. Now if you like Moss speed over Fitz which is why you would say Moss > Fitz? Fine. But the way you worded it was as if his speed all but ended any argument between Moss vs Fitz.

I said from the start its arguable who is the best WR. I'd take Larry Fitz. pete monteruex would take Andre Johnson. You would take Randy Moss. To me its close, arguable. You made it seem otherwise when it came to Moss and highlighted his speed at the determining factor. Again thats how it read.



when comparing Moss and Fitz I would like to use video footage...but you won't watch it...

I dont have too. I've followed Moss since he was at Marshall. I even in my initial post in this thread DEFENDED the guy who got dissed because he is the sole reason for Tom's great QB season, he is the sole reason Wes Welker production is :eek: and the HUGE reason Matt Cassel is getting so much hype, attention and slapped with the franchise tag.

Moss is a stud and I never backed down from it even during his dog years in Oakland where he bailed on the team like he did in Minny. He still is a stud that I'd give a chance too. Wish the Eagles did and not due to hindsight either.


Fitz is almost like Dennis Rodman in football pads...jump up and get the rebound, no matter who is around...only due to his slow speed he is always in a crowd and never has the chance to break away after the catch...Moss has the same freakish hands plus freakish speed on top of that...HE JUST SMASHED EVERY RECORD ONE YEAR AGO...NOT FIVE YEARS AGO...LAST YEAR.

Having an accurate $$$ QB with a OL that protected him better than the Secret Service does the President? Not shocking what Moss did.

Moss hands is not freakish nor on the level of Fitz. Fitz rarely drops passes. Its RARE like seeing Big Foot. Moss? He drops them. Had 6 this season. And in Oakland? Dropped critical 3rd down and touchdown passes. Blame it to him doggin it, him not mentally being in it. Either way he dropped them. Larry Fitz hands are comparable to Cris Carter who probably had the best mits in NFL history. And even Cris said Larrys hands were better. But that can be due to bias since he was Larry's mentor growing up.



btw, Fitz is bigger and stronger than Rice and it's not even close...if you can bring up Galloway's speed, then I cn bring up Rice's size.

Rice career is set in stone. Larry's isnt. Larry is bigger, strong, more physical than Jerry Rice. Its not even comparable really. However Rice is a better WR. Thats my point when you harp on Moss speed. Sure Moss is faster no question. But his speed isnt enough to make the Larry vs Randy argument a done deal. His speed doesnt determine who is better so my argument for Larry should be flushed down the toilet. Not many WRs in the league can run toe to toe with Moss who lost 1/2 in my eyes.

You highlight his speed like its the determining factor/end all. Thats why i mentioned Galloway who was insanely FAST for his career even at an old age. Doesnt automatically make him better than other stud WRs who are a step slower. :confusedshrug:


Moss is faster than Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Larry Fitz. Yet you can argue Steve Smith over Randy Moss and not sound silly. So why harp on his speed so much?

[GOBB]

http://media.myfoxboston.com/sports/patriots/images/bradymoss.jpg

"PSSTT!!!..Hey Tom...come over here!!!...you gotta read this sh*t man...HAHAHA!!!...It only takes them one year to forget!!!"

You put Andre Johnson, Steve Smith in place of Randy Moss and who knows what PRODUCTION we would be seeing. Just saying. Takes 1 year to forget what? That YOU feel he is the best WR in the NFL? Kudos. I wonder where you ranked Randy Moss his 2yrs in Oakland.

I bet my soul you didnt have him the best. Wonder why when Randy skills/talent remained the same/didnt change.

[lilmarcgasol]

As of right now, I would take Andre over any WR in the entire league. And that includes Moss.
Even though Andre gets hurt all the time? I think Calvin Johnson is the only reciever comparable to Moss skill and talent wise.

[-primetime-]

Moss is faster than Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Larry Fitz. Yet you can argue Steve Smith over Randy Moss and not sound silly. So why harp on his speed so much?
because that speed is the difference between scoring a TD and not scoring one...

that is a huge difference IMO

a much bigger difference than 6 drops rather than just 3 or 4...(whatever Fitz has)


You put Andre Johnson, Steve Smith in place of Randy Moss and who knows what PRODUCTION we would be seeing. Just saying. Takes 1 year to forget what? That YOU feel he is the best WR in the NFL? Kudos. I wonder where you ranked Randy Moss his 2yrs in Oakland.

I bet my soul you didnt have him the best. Wonder why when Randy skills/talent remained the same/didnt change.
I have no idea...

I am sure it wasn't #1 but that was just due to the fact that Moss gave everyone the impression that he had given up on the NFL...he openly admitted to not trying...

I can honestly say that I thought he was worth much more than a 4th round pick...

[GOBB]

because that speed is the difference between scoring a TD and not scoring one...

that is a huge difference IMO

a much bigger difference than 6 drops rather than just 3 or 4...(whatever Fitz has)

He had 2. To me speed isnt that big of a difference when comparing the two.

Agree to disagree and i can live with that.

[TakitoEspanoza]

???

let's take out all of every WR's "big games" then...

Owens is still a top WR in the NFL...he even had good numbers this season regarless of Romo being hurt...

If anyone wants to just completely throw him out of the conversation because of his supposed "whining" then fine...whatever.

In no way what so ever this year was Owen's lower numbers due to anything that he did...he was the same as last year where he had one of the greatest year's of his career and broke all Dallas WR records.



Moss is the best WR in the NFL and I am betting that both him and Owens will show to prove as such next year if both of their QBs are healthy...

The stupidity and nut sucking in this post is off the charts.

[TakitoEspanoza]

Yall tripping downing Larry Fitz speed.

And Jennings over T.Owens? Last time you had a physical where they checked your vision? The saying "Long overdue" applies.

I think Larry Fitz is the best WR however I acknowledge as should any sane and rational fan there are a couple who can be argued the best. Fitz beasted yesterday but Steve Smith is a beast in his own right.

And the Moss hate in this thread is funny. Moss is the reason Tom Brady had the great statisical year he put up, which will be used to catipult him into the QB GODS of the NFL history. Moss is the reason Wes Welker caught so many balls this year while Matt Cassel is franchised and a sought out QB who will be getting paid. No coincidence here but yeah all the crap you typed about him? Yeah it sticks. Uh huh (sarcasm).

And I'd only take a handful of WRs over T.Owens not based on talent/skill but moreso character/attitude. T.Owens is a drama queen and I've supported/defended his action until his flare ups in Dallas. Its similar to Plax where dude is a playmaker and would have been the reason NYG could have defeated Philly today. But would you take him or Roddy White in Atlanta? I'll take Roddy. I dont care/want to put up with paying big bucks to a WR who acts like a dumbass. And dont get me wrong there ARE situations where I would.

Example? Eagles. I'd put up with a headcase given the fact I cant GET the handful of WRs i would take over him. But I'm left with the WRs i have on the team. Make sense? It should.


Brady helped Moss as much as Moss helped Brady.

Pull up this years stats and the last 4 or 5 when Moss didnt have Brady at QB, his numbers suck.

[dware94]

this thread proves how little 90% of the people on this forum know about football.. some idiot would take antonio bryant over TO... like thats a joke, tell that to anybody who knows SOMETHING about football and they would just laugh in your face.. TO is a top 5 receiver no doubt, you cant judge the fact that hes a nutcase, because that has nothing to do with talent.

[GOBB]

Is TO talented? Yes
Is he irreplacable? No
Are there a handful of WRs in the NFL that regardless of TO talent could be just as productive, beneficial and impact a francise? Yes

So to say you cant judge the fact he is a nutcase is wrong. You wanna rank the WRs? Fine, by all means do. Him being a nutcase wont matter when you rank. But at the end of the day? Teams dont go by top WR rankings as to who they would add to thier team.

You can bypass the TALENTED nutcase in T.Owens and get a productive player in Reggie Wayne.

[GOBB]

Brady helped Moss as much as Moss helped Brady.

Pull up this years stats and the last 4 or 5 when Moss didnt have Brady at QB, his numbers suck.

Why do you talk football? :confusedshrug:

[dware94]

gobb uve proved u know nothing about football, im not even gunna waste my time replying to that stupid post

[dware94]

Why do I talk football? :confusedshrug:

fixed

[TakitoEspanoza]

Why do you talk football? :confusedshrug:
2004 MIN 13 49 767 15.7 82 13 43 1 1
2005 OAK 16 60 1005 16.8 79 8 46 0 0
2006 OAK 13 42 553 13.2 51 3 29 0 0
2007 NWE 16 98 1493 15.2 65 23 74 0 0
2008 NWE 16 69 1008 14.6 76 11 46 3 2
Career 170 843 13201 15.7 82 135 600 10 6


49 catches 767

60 1005

42 553

69 1008

THOSE ALL SUCK

NOW STFU.

[GOBB]

gobb uve proved u know nothing about football, im not even gunna waste my time replying to that stupid post

Copout. You do it anytime you are challenge. Put a chicken in your avi. Fans who front like they have knowledge respond like you do.

"I'm not even gonna reply"
"I'm not even gonna waste my time"

3 posts in tho in this thread already. You've dropped no gems, no knowledge, no source of enlightenment but the predictable copout phrases. :oldlol:

No one here has football knowledge. Scratch that, 90%. But where have you've proven you are in the 10% that do?

"I'm not even gonna waste time answering that one gobb"

Of course not!

:hammertime:

[canadianballer]

:roll::roll: gobb you just got embarassed by takito. he just took your point and shoved it straight up your ass

[-primetime-]

2004 MIN 13 49 767 15.7 82 13 43 1 1
2005 OAK 16 60 1005 16.8 79 8 46 0 0
2006 OAK 13 42 553 13.2 51 3 29 0 0
2007 NWE 16 98 1493 15.2 65 23 74 0 0
2008 NWE 16 69 1008 14.6 76 11 46 3 2
Career 170 843 13201 15.7 82 135 600 10 6


49 catches 767

60 1005

42 553

69 1008

THOSE ALL SUCK

NOW STFU.

funny...

take Moss's last 5 years and compare them to Fitz's last 5 years...Oakland, Cassell and all...

how about you take Moss's last 5 years and compare them to Andre's as well

you can do the same with Owens since you feel he sucks too...

[dware94]

No one here has football knowledge. Scratch that, 90%. But where have you've proven you are in the 10% that do?

well i do know that TO is a top 5 receiver, i never thought that would prove football knowledge until reading this thread.:hammerhead:

[TakitoEspanoza]

funny...

take Moss's last 5 years and compare them to Fitz's last 5 years...Oakland, Cassell and all...

how about you take Moss's last 5 years and compare them to Andre's as well

Yes, lets compare a players first 5 years in the league vs a players PRIME years.

Just stop it already dude.

[-primetime-]

Yes, lets compare a players first 5 years in the league vs a players PRIME years.

Just stop it already dude.
well...according to you Moss has sucked the past 5 years...

you wanna compare Moss's first 5 years instead...:oldlol:

your point sucks...


you: "If you take away all the years that Moss had Brady and the years that he played with Cullpepper and the years he played with Cunningham then he sucks...!!!"

[GOBB]

2004 MIN 13 49 767 15.7 82 13 43 1 1
2005 OAK 16 60 1005 16.8 79 8 46 0 0
2006 OAK 13 42 553 13.2 51 3 29 0 0
2007 NWE 16 98 1493 15.2 65 23 74 0 0
2008 NWE 16 69 1008 14.6 76 11 46 3 2
Career 170 843 13201 15.7 82 135 600 10 6


49 catches 767

60 1005

42 553

69 1008

THOSE ALL SUCK

NOW STFU.

Suck according to who? The casual fan who doesnt watch the games? :oldlol:

1. His years in Oakland? Who was his QB. Do you even remember without using google.com (since that browser is opened after u searched Moss stats)? Do you realize how pathetic the OL was pass protecting? Your moronic ass could have got 1/2 on them. You just sat there and typed how Tom Brady was just as much of a reason for Moss production as Moss was for his. So you acknowledge the QB-WR relationship is one where both depend on the other. WR depends on the QB to get him the ball, get it in places where he can make plays and if possible run after the catch (Moss strongsuit). QB depends on the WR to be able to catch his passes and make plays. And if they have the ability to make big plays the better. What do the QB and WR depend on to get this job done? The OL pass protecting thus giving the QB time to get the pigskin to the WR so they can do thier job.

If any of these areas are compromised, not effective then what happens? At this point a kid in jr after reading would be able to answer this. Did Oakland have stability at QB or OL? No. Dont worry I'll answer for your dumb ass. But yes his numbers "suck" but you cant see a reason/basis for it. Shame.

2. This past season you highlight 69 catches and 1008yds. Wes Welker had back to back 110+ seasons. I wonder why? Matt Cassel had a productive year that will land him big bucks. I wonder why? You actually think if you removed Randy Moss and his "sucky numbers" these 2 produce like they have? Do you? You realize Moss impact this season cant be measured in "stats"? Of course not. You're not too bright over there behinf your cpu. I wonder why. You see the theme here bonehead? He had 11 touchdowns. Ranked 13th in the NFL in touchdowns. 66pts accounted for. Sucky numbers. Considering Matt had 21 TDs in total. Wait Moss accounted for half of Matt's TD passes? Who knew!

3. Moss last year in Minny he had 13 TDs. It also featured Culpepper having the best season of his entire football career. Of course Moss was not apart of that. :ohwell: Thats how you examine "stats" like someone FANTASY FOOTBALL geek. Maybe Moss in that regard might have sucked. Sorry you couldnt win your NON MONEY league there pal so you could have bragging rights vs strangers. :violin:

4. Why do you talk football?

[canadianballer]

if u could not respond with a f*cking novel filled with mumbo jumbo every time that would be appreciated, thanks man :cheers:

[GOBB]

well...according to you Moss has sucked the past 5 years...

you wanna compare Moss's first 5 years instead...:oldlol:

your point sucks...


you: "If you take away all the years that Moss had Brady and the years that he played with Cullpepper and the years he played with Cunningham then he sucks...!!!"

He's a Moss hater. The type who would trade your team Randy Moss for a 6th rounder. All because he has sucky numbers the last 5yrs not including the year with Tom Brady and the fact in his eyes (which are blurry) "Moss is not as good as people think"..


Wes Welker had more catches and more yards. However 3 TDs vs 11.

I like math. 11 > 3. 66pts > 18pts

In the NFL to win you outscore your opponent. :confusedshrug:

[-primetime-]

the funny thing is that after just browsing around stats I can't find anyone other than Owens or Wayne that are comparable to Moss's last 5 years...

Steve Smith would be but he was injured...

even myself thought that those Oakland years would have set him behind a whole bunch of WRs but they really didn't...

[Carbine]

My two cents on this whole thing:

Moss is one year removed from putting up numbers that just boggle the mind. What did he have... 1400 yards and 24 touchdowns or something like that? Sure, having Tom Brady throwing the ball is nice, but I firmly believe Randy made Brady look better, not the other way around. He made some catches where Brady just put it up in the area and Randy came down with it.

Randy is the best deep threat I have ever seen and with that comes the amount of attention he demands (still does) but he needs a quarterback who can throw it deep enough. When hes had guys like Culpepper & Brady who can get the ball down the field, that's taking advantage of his unique ability. Ths year with Matt Cassel, well.. as ogod as Matt played, he didn't have the accuracy or arm strength to get the ball down field to Randy.

His ability to go deep creates so many oppurtunities for the other players around him to succeed. We've all seen the impact Plax made on the Giant offense by always having to have a safety over the top and having to roll coverage his way, well it's even more for Randy due to his ability to go deep.

That leaves a lot of room underneath for the slot receivers to work with, the running laned for the backs, the single coverage for the second wideout. All that stuff is a by product of Moss being on the field.

I'm not saying Fitz doesn't bring the ability to command that kind of attention, but Moss is just a little bit more gameplaned around to stop.

We've seen it in the playoffs where they literally have bracket coverage with a safety over top with Randy, that's the type of respect he garners.

I just can't say Fitz is a better wideout right now. Randy is one year removed from a record breaking year. He had his quarterback who can get the ball to him down the field go down in the first half of their first game.

[GOBB]

My two cents on this whole thing:

Moss is one year removed from putting up numbers that just boggle the mind. What did he have... 1400 yards and 24 touchdowns or something like that? Sure, having Tom Brady throwing the ball is nice, but I firmly believe Randy made Brady look better, not the other way around. He made some catches where Brady just put it up in the area and Randy came down with it.

Randy is the best deep threat I have ever seen and with that comes the amount of attention he demands (still does) but he needs a quarterback who can throw it deep enough. When hes had guys like Culpepper & Brady who can get the ball down the field, that's taking advantage of his unique ability. Ths year with Matt Cassel, well.. as ogod as Matt played, he didn't have the accuracy or arm strength to get the ball down field to Randy.

His ability to go deep creates so many oppurtunities for the other players around him to succeed. We've all seen the impact Plax made on the Giant offense by always having to have a safety over the top and having to roll coverage his way, well it's even more for Randy due to his ability to go deep.

That leaves a lot of room underneath for the slot receivers to work with, the running laned for the backs, the single coverage for the second wideout. All that stuff is a by product of Moss being on the field.

I'm not saying Fitz doesn't bring the ability to command that kind of attention, but Moss is just a little bit more gameplaned around to stop.

We've seen it in the playoffs where they literally have bracket coverage with a safety over top with Randy, that's the type of respect he garners.

I just can't say Fitz is a better wideout right now. Randy is one year removed from a record breaking year. He had his quarterback who can get the ball to him down the field go down in the first half of their first game.

Fair enough.

[-primetime-]

My two cents on this whole thing:

Moss is one year removed from putting up numbers that just boggle the mind. What did he have... 1400 yards and 24 touchdowns or something like that? Sure, having Tom Brady throwing the ball is nice, but I firmly believe Randy made Brady look better, not the other way around. He made some catches where Brady just put it up in the area and Randy came down with it.

Randy is the best deep threat I have ever seen and with that comes the amount of attention he demands (still does) but he needs a quarterback who can throw it deep enough. When hes had guys like Culpepper & Brady who can get the ball down the field, that's taking advantage of his unique ability. Ths year with Matt Cassel, well.. as ogod as Matt played, he didn't have the accuracy or arm strength to get the ball down field to Randy.

His ability to go deep creates so many oppurtunities for the other players around him to succeed. We've all seen the impact Plax made on the Giant offense by always having to have a safety over the top and having to roll coverage his way, well it's even more for Randy due to his ability to go deep.

That leaves a lot of room underneath for the slot receivers to work with, the running laned for the backs, the single coverage for the second wideout. All that stuff is a by product of Moss being on the field.

I'm not saying Fitz doesn't bring the ability to command that kind of attention, but Moss is just a little bit more gameplaned around to stop.

We've seen it in the playoffs where they literally have bracket coverage with a safety over top with Randy, that's the type of respect he garners.

I just can't say Fitz is a better wideout right now. Randy is one year removed from a record breaking year. He had his quarterback who can get the ball to him down the field go down in the first half of their first game.
It shocks me how many people just completely forget about that and toss it aside like it never happened...

not just here on ISH but even the so called "experts" during the pregames today...

before the Chargers game they had a debate about the best WR in the NFL and the only names that were brought up were Andre and Fitz...as though there is no question that it is between those two...Moss is gone to them, and everyone else...


another thing that pisses me off is that if Brady is healthy next year and Moss goes on to completely SMASH anything that Andre or Fitz does then EVERYONE is going to pretend like they knew he was the best all along...

I made that mistake when he was in Oakland...I'm not falling for it again

[GOBB]

Andre Johnson rarely gets any attention. Been underrated for years. And Larry Fitz is the best young WR in the NFL so he is getting the fame. Same fame Randy recieving when he was a youngster. Only right.

[TakitoEspanoza]

I dont hate Moss, I just see a guy who is 31 and just went through the prime of his career. In the past 5 years, he has had 4 unproductive seasons. PERIOD.

[-primetime-]

I dont hate Moss, I just see a guy who is 31 and just went through the prime of his career. In the past 5 years, he has had 4 unproductive seasons. PERIOD.
other than Owens or Wayne please show me who has done better the past 5 years...

and no excuses...not injury or anything else...if I can't make excuses for Moss then you can't make excuses for others...


now please point out who has been better than him the past 5 years with all his "unproductive" seasons...

[GOBB]

11 Tds is unproductive? lol News to me

[TakitoEspanoza]

other than Owens or Wayne please show me who has done better the past 5 years...

and no excuses...not injury or anything else...if I can't make excuses for Moss then you can't make excuses for others...


now please point out who has been better than him the past 5 years with all his "unproductive" seasons...

Torry Holt
Terell Owens
Reggie Wayne
Chad Johnson
Steve Smith
Larry Fitzgerald
Donald Driver

[-primetime-]

Torry Holt
Terell Owens
Reggie Wayne
Chad Johnson
Steve Smith
Larry Fitzgerald
Donald Driver
I haven't been doing the math but I said besides owens and Wayne and Smith missed a full year as well as Ocho pretty much this year...

Holt maybe...

so out of the last 5 years (4 of the years you claim he sucked) there are only 3 WRs that have done as good number wise...

[White Chocolate]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/m2pac3j/Fitz_gallery_600.jpg


I love this shot. :cheers: To answer your question, I disagree. Randy Moss is the best followed by T.O.

[-primetime-]

alright...decided to do some quick math...

LAST 5 YEARS

R. Wayne
6,230 yards, 42 TDs

C. Ocho-Cinco
6,055 yards, 37 TDs

L. Fitzgerald
5,975 yards, 46 TDs

T. Holt
5,876 yards, 39 TDs

D. Driver
5,784 yards, 36 TDs

T. Owens
5,550 yards, 58 TDs

A. Johnson
5,403 yards, 29 TDs

S. Smith
5,212 yards, 33 TDs

A. Boldin
5,119 yards, 32 TDs

T.J. Houshmandzadeh
5,062 yards, 36 TDs

R. Moss
4,826 yards, 58 TDs

H. Ward
4,729 yards, 35 TDs

M. Harrison
4,508 yards, 45 TDs



Moss does have a decent amount ahead of him in yardage the last 5 years...but not TDs

take that how you want I guess

[ndPac]

Yea that is a badass picture. I set it as my desktop. . .

LOL i like how this thread turned into a Moss vs Owens thread.

They are both top 5, and with Brady this year Moss would have been anywhere from 1st - 2nd no doubt.

My WR power rankings for this year and future (not talking about Moss and Owens best seasons/careers.) :

1. Larry Fitzgerald
2. Andre Johnson
3. Calvin Johnson
4. Randy Moss
5. Steve Smith
6. Roddy White
7. Anquan Boldin
8. Terrell Owens
9. Greg Jennings
10. Brandon Marshall
11. Reggie Wayne

Yea that is a badass picture. I set it as my desktop. . .

LOL i like how this thread turned into a Moss vs Owens thread.

They are both top 5, and with Brady this year Moss would have been anywhere from 1st - 2nd no doubt.

My WR power rankings for this year and future (not talking about Moss and Owens best seasons/careers.) :

1. Larry Fitzgerald
2. Andre Johnson
3. Calvin Johnson
4. Randy Moss
5. Steve Smith
6. Roddy White
7. Anquan Boldin
8. Terrell Owens
9. Greg Jennings
10. Brandon Marshall
11. Reggie Wayne

Wow a receiver that has a mediocre QB, has 40 yards less then Fitz in 1 less game, is the #5 best receiver.

Glad to see everyone EXCEPT the so called *idiot* GOBB is the only one showing love to Steve Smith. That's why I always say, GOBB is a very well rounded poster on this site and should be respected.

His knowledge is very versatile and he knows his stuff about a lot of stuff.
You idiots need to learn a thing or two.

Smith was 3rd in the league in receiving yards again while missing 2 games (both Fitz and Andre played all 16 games), yet he never gets respect. If say TO or Moss or anyone else put up his numbers, they'd get blown up.

Smith is 1st in YPG and AVG, he is the best playmaker in the league at the WR spot. Time to start acknowledging that.

Only reason Smith's TDs aren't as high is because Carolina plays a run first offense and their two RBs usually get all the carries in the red zone.

alright...decided to do some quick math...

LAST 5 YEARS

R. Wayne
6,230 yards, 42 TDs

C. Ocho-Cinco
6,055 yards, 37 TDs

L. Fitzgerald
5,975 yards, 46 TDs

T. Holt
5,876 yards, 39 TDs

D. Driver
5,784 yards, 36 TDs

T. Owens
5,550 yards, 58 TDs

A. Johnson
5,403 yards, 29 TDs

S. Smith
5,212 yards, 33 TDs

A. Boldin
5,119 yards, 32 TDs

T.J. Houshmandzadeh
5,062 yards, 36 TDs

R. Moss
4,826 yards, 58 TDs

H. Ward
4,729 yards, 35 TDs

M. Harrison
4,508 yards, 45 TDs



Moss does have a decent amount ahead of him in yardage the last 5 years...but not TDs

take that how you want I guess
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

That's because in 2004, Steve Smith played 2 quarters and got injured against the Packers. Do the last 4 years and you'll see Smith's greatness.

Very fair to include receivers over the last 5 years and forget to mention Smith has only played 4 of those years retard!

[lefthook00]

Gobb, you're making sense, but...Moss' hands are better than Larry's...count the drops or whatever but Moss has made many catches that no other wideout could make. If you've also noticed, Moss uses his body less than any receiver to catch balls, most of the time he catches them by the finger tips.

[canadianballer]

The only thing GOBB has extensive knowledge in is being a dumbass. All it takes for someone to have knowledge by your books is give some love to Steve Smith? :roll:

[ndPac]

Gobb, you're making sense, but...Moss' hands are better than Larry's...count the drops or whatever but Moss has made many catches that no other wideout could make. If you've also noticed, Moss uses his body less than any receiver to catch balls, most of the time he catches them by the finger tips.


I disagree. . Fitzgerald has the best hands in the league and makes spectacular catches all the time. He catches all of them with his hands too if you notice he never has to bring it into his body its weird.

[ndPac]

[QUOTE=

[Jumpshot Virus]

I'm not basing my picks on this year's performance, but currently the most valuable / talented WRs in the game today / going forward.

Elite (Top 5)

Steve Smith
Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson
Chad Johnson
TO

Greats (5-10)

Anquan Boldin
Randy Moss
Calvin Johnson
Marvin Harrison
TJ Houshmanzaheh

Outside Looking In

Reggie Wayne
Santana Moss
Hines Ward
Roy Williams
Braylon Edwards
Lee Edwards
Troy Holt
Derrick Mason
Donald Driver
Joey Galloway

_____

Most Overrated (Top 5)

Marvin Harrison
Randy Moss
Hines Ward
Joey Galloway
Troy Holt

Most Underrated (Top 5)

Santana Moss
Derrick Mason
Roy Williams
Braylon Edwards
TJ Houshmanzaheh

Soon to be Superstars (will be in Top 5 ultimately)

Calvin Johnson
Anquan Boldin
Braylon Edwards (maybe, this kid is vastly underrated)

Those on the Decline

Troy Holt
Randy Moss
Marvin Harrison
Donald Driver
Joey Galloway

[Jumpshot Virus]

I disagree. . Fitzgerald has the best hands in the league and makes spectacular catches all the time. He catches all of them with his hands too if you notice he never has to bring it into his body its weird.

He's also one of the more underrated who makes plays after the catch.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

mcnabb made owens look good.

[-primetime-]

[QUOTE=

[canadianballer]

after what he did last season compared to this season? :roll: :roll:


Most underrated
Braylon Edwards

[Jumpshot Virus]

after what he did last season compared to this season? :roll: :roll:

Derek Anderson was a weak QB this year, not to mention he was hurt late in the season and there was disarray in Cleveland about who the starting QB would be, and this party contributed to Braylon's lackluster season. Like I mentioned earlier, my listing was not based off this season.

[GOBB]

Gobb, you're making sense, but...Moss' hands are better than Larry's...count the drops or whatever but Moss has made many catches that no other wideout could make. If you've also noticed, Moss uses his body less than any receiver to catch balls, most of the time he catches them by the finger tips.

His hands are not better than Larry's. Followed Moss entire career and he has good hands but they simply arent better than Larry. I've seen Moss drop passes. I've seen Moss kill drives by drops. I've seen him drop touchdowns in critical moments in a game. For someone whose hands are better and makes many catches no wideout can. WHY is he dropping passes to begin with?

Larry simply doesnt drop passes the way Moss has in his career.

[GOBB]

Derek Anderson was a weak QB this year, not to mention he was hurt late in the season and there was disarray in Cleveland about who the starting QB would be, and this party contributed to Braylon's lackluster season. Like I mentioned earlier, my listing was not based off this season.

When you're dealing with people who are casual fans with limited football knowledge. You'll get silly responses. While Braylon nickname can be BUTTERFINGERS, the Clevland situation this season can not be used to judge how talented he is as a WR. He came out of college a stud with the potential to be a #1 WR, impact reciever. He is that. There are times where a situation simply isnt good for a player to be productive. But a person would have to watch a season, evaluate a team to understand. Simply operating by googling stats and forming conclusions is faulty. Something the Randy Moss hater needs to understand.

Some people in this thread are wasting posts due to boredom.

[GOBB]

alright...decided to do some quick math...

LAST 5 YEARS

R. Wayne
6,230 yards, 42 TDs

C. Ocho-Cinco
6,055 yards, 37 TDs

L. Fitzgerald
5,975 yards, 46 TDs

T. Holt
5,876 yards, 39 TDs

D. Driver
5,784 yards, 36 TDs

T. Owens
5,550 yards, 58 TDs

A. Johnson
5,403 yards, 29 TDs

S. Smith
5,212 yards, 33 TDs

A. Boldin
5,119 yards, 32 TDs

T.J. Houshmandzadeh
5,062 yards, 36 TDs

R. Moss
4,826 yards, 58 TDs

H. Ward
4,729 yards, 35 TDs

M. Harrison
4,508 yards, 45 TDs



Moss does have a decent amount ahead of him in yardage the last 5 years...but not TDs

take that how you want I guess

Moss gets paid to score touchdowns. The sooner people realize it the better.

[-primetime-]

Moss gets paid to score touchdowns. The sooner people realize it the better.
It is hard to put a value on yards vs. TDs though...

who is better:

WR A: 6,000 yards, 40 TDs

WR B: 5,000 yards, 50 TDs

I don't know if anyone can answer that...

like you said, one would have to go through and watch entire seasons to get the real picture but unfortunatly that just really isn't possible for us unless we Tivoed every game and actually spend the time to go through and watch all of them...

when comparing WRs, stats and YouTube highlights is pretty much all we have to work with...

speaking of stats...do you have a site that shows drops in past years?

all I have is this:

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league/passesdropped.html

I am trying to figure out Moss vs. Fitz drops in past years but I can't...

[RedBlackAttack]

I have not read all five pages, so forgive me if I am repeating what has already been said, but I figured I would give my two cents...

I really believe Fitz separated himself this season. He is the best, most complete receiver in the L. Hell... he might be the best PLAYER in the NFL.

The guy has no describable weakness. He is uber-athletic and one of, if not the best at going up and getting the ball at its highest point. He is one of, if not the best big play receiver (consistently). He has the best hands in the league. He is deceptively fast.

What really separates him from other big play guys, though, is his superb route running. The guy is like a robot. You NEVER see him being chewed out on the sidelines for running an out instead of a curl. You NEVER see him doing a 'my bad' sign after a missed route.

To top it off, unlike most receivers in the league, he doesn't seem to be a primadonna in any way, shape, or form. You never hear him complaining that he needs the ball more and you don't see him doing crazy 'look at me' celebrations after making a play.

If I were to design the perfect receiver, it would probably be Larry Fitzgerald.

[GOBB]

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=232&year=

[-primetime-]

I have not read all five pages, so forgive me if I am repeating what has already been said, but I figured I would give my two cents...

I really believe Fitz separated himself this season. He is the best, most complete receiver in the L. Hell... he might be the best PLAYER in the NFL.

The guy has no describable weakness. He is uber-athletic and one of, if not the best at going up and getting the ball at its highest point. He is one of, if not the best big play receiver (consistently). He has the best hands in the league. He is deceptively fast.

What really separates him from other big play guys, though, is his superb route running. The guy is like a robot. You NEVER see him being chewed out on the sidelines for running an out instead of a curl. You NEVER see him doing a 'my bad' sign after a missed route.

To top it off, unlike most receivers in the league, he doesn't seem to be a primadonna in any way, shape, or form. You never hear him complaining that he needs the ball more and you don't see him doing crazy 'look at me' celebrations after making a play.

If I were to design the perfect receiver, it would probably be Larry Fitzgerald.
He is slower than a snail...

that is why he is always making big rebound type catches in traffic...he doesn't have he speed to seperate himself from DBs...

That is his major knock...

you will NEVER see Fitz look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aitKOOdnxBg
(only 2 minutes)

[-primetime-]

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=232&year=
I don't think you can go to past years on that site either...

[RedBlackAttack]

He is slower than a snail...

that is why he is always making big rebound type catches in traffic...he doesn't have he speed to seperate himself from DBs...

That is his major knock...

you will NEVER see Fitz look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aitKOOdnxBg
(only 2 minutes)
4.53 is not as slow as a snail. Considering his size, that is actually pretty damn fast.

He doesn't have the speed to break away from DBs? Huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjmYmhI2hO0

...you only have to go 27 seconds in to see that you are wrong.

He doesn't have Randy Moss or DeSean Jackson type speed, but he is still very fast and still fully capable of breaking huge plays (which he does on a regular basis).

[-primetime-]

4.53 is not as slow as a snail. Considering his size, that is actually pretty damn fast.

He doesn't have the speed to break away from DBs? Huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjmYmhI2hO0

...you only have to go 27 seconds in to see that you are wrong.

He doesn't have Randy Moss or DeSean Jackson type speed, but he is still very fast and still fully capable of breaking huge plays (which he does on a regular basis).
wow...sorry but that vid just shows how ridiculously slow he is...there is almost nothing there where a DB isn't all over him...

Now he does always seem to somehow catch the ball amazingly...but he never breaks away after the catch...

I wouldn't mind seeing him do that stuff on a CB that is a "playmaker"...

We will see if he can get away with that stuff on Asante in the NFC Championship game....I am betting he won't be able to.


I remember 4.63 btw...his major knock coming out of the draft

[RedBlackAttack]

wow...sorry but that vid just shows how ridiculously slow he is...there is almost nothing there where a DB isn't all over him...

Now he does always seem to somehow catch the ball amazingly...but he never breaks away after the catch...

I wouldn't mind seeing him do that stuff on a CB that is a "playmaker"...

We will see if he can get away with that stuff on Asante in the NFC Championship game....I am betting he won't be able to.


I remember 4.63 btw...his major knock coming out of the draft
According to SI.com, it was 4.53.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2004/draft/players/46239.html

Just because most of those highlights were catches in traffic does not mean he is 'ridiculously slow' (absurd assertion). It just means that he has a ton of highlight worthy catches in traffic. He has caught a lot of long balls for touchdowns over the years, too. They just aren't as mind-blowing as his one-handers over four defenders which he has made a habit.

So... who do you think is better? I haven't read through the thread and, since you are picking apart Fitz, I'm hoping that your No. 1 has no flaws.

[ndPac]

I have not read all five pages, so forgive me if I am repeating what has already been said, but I figured I would give my two cents...

I really believe Fitz separated himself this season. He is the best, most complete receiver in the L. Hell... he might be the best PLAYER in the NFL.

The guy has no describable weakness. He is uber-athletic and one of, if not the best at going up and getting the ball at its highest point. He is one of, if not the best big play receiver (consistently). He has the best hands in the league. He is deceptively fast.

What really separates him from other big play guys, though, is his superb route running. The guy is like a robot. You NEVER see him being chewed out on the sidelines for running an out instead of a curl. You NEVER see him doing a 'my bad' sign after a missed route.

To top it off, unlike most receivers in the league, he doesn't seem to be a primadonna in any way, shape, or form. You never hear him complaining that he needs the ball more and you don't see him doing crazy 'look at me' celebrations after making a play.

If I were to design the perfect receiver, it would probably be Larry Fitzgerald.

agree 100%:cheers:

I also remember when Fitz was in college at Pittsburgh they had a special on him saying how he is always the most respectful player on the field, and after every touchdown he scored he would get up and run the ball to the official and hand it to him. Not a big deal but it is good too see that every great player isn't big headed.

[-primetime-]

According to SI.com, it was 4.53.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2004/draft/players/46239.html

Just because most of those highlights were catches in traffic does not mean he is 'ridiculously slow' (absurd assertion). It just means that he has a ton of highlight worthy catches in traffic. He has caught a lot of long balls for touchdowns over the years, too. They just aren't as mind-blowing as his one-handers over four defenders which he has made a habit.

So... who do you think is better? I haven't read through the thread and, since you are picking apart Fitz, I'm hoping that your No. 1 has no flaws.
I think the guy who just got done smashing all single season records is the best...

I also think that reality will be very aparent to everyone next year given that Brady is healthy...

I suppose I will trust SI's 4.53....and me saying "ridiculously" slow may be an exageration...but as far as WRs go he doesn't seem that much faster than a TE...



a "flawless" WR would be prime Owens with Moss's speed and Fitz's hands...that WR doesn't exist

[ndPac]

all I have is this:

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league/passesdropped.html

I am trying to figure out Moss vs. Fitz drops in past years but I can't...


I guarantee Moss will lead in drops, or if not it will be very close. And think about it, the only reason it would even be close is because Moss usually gets 6-8 passes a game. . . He will have a 50 yd reception, end up with 130 yds on 5 receptions. . Now think about Fitzgerald, he is good for 100+ every game, and it is always on 10+ receptions as well. Think about how many more balls are thrown to him over the course of a season.

Another thing I forgot to mention earlier that this reminded me of is just how steady his game is every week. . . He is good for around 10 catches and 100 yards every time.

[-primetime-]

I guarantee Moss will lead in drops, or if not it will be very close. And think about it, the only reason it would even be close is because Moss usually gets 6-8 passes a game. . . He will have a 50 yd reception, end up with 130 yds on 5 receptions. . Now think about Fitzgerald, he is good for 100+ every game, and it is always on 10+ receptions as well. Think about how many more balls are thrown to him over the course of a season.

Another thing I forgot to mention earlier that this reminded me of is just how steady his game is every week. . . He is good for around 10 catches and 100 yards every time.
if both WR have 100 yards and 2 TDs then does it really matter how many catches it took them to get there?

if anything the guy do that with less catches would be better because that would mean he has a much higher average...

[RedBlackAttack]

I think the guy who just got done smashing all single season records is the best...

I also think that reality will be very aparent to everyone next year given that Brady is healthy...

I suppose I will trust SI's 4.53....and me saying "ridiculously" slow may be an exageration...but as far as WRs go he doesn't seem that much faster than a TE...



a "flawless" WR would be prime Owens with Moss's speed and Fitz's hands...that WR doesn't exist
Moss is the best deep ball receiver in the history of the NFL. That is where it ends, though. He is a horrible route runner, drops the ball in traffic, has given up his team numerous times over the course of his career, is maybe the least physical receiver in the NFL, and he has disappeared in big games.

Moss' talents are undeniable. Speed, leaping, hands, size... He has all of those things in spades.

Fitzgerald, meanwhile, excels in the areas that Moss struggles in. To say that Fitz is as slow as a tightend is just flat-out ludicrous. It makes me think you have never seen him play. He will never be one of the biggest speed burners in the league, but slow he is not.

Put Fitz on that Patriots' team from last season and see if he also breaks every record in the books...

[ndPac]

wow...sorry but that vid just shows how ridiculously slow he is...there is almost nothing there where a DB isn't all over him...



LoL, I guess Fitzgerald isn't a great wr because he isn't the fastest player in the nfl. . . Good point. :rolleyes:

And 4.53 is just about the average wr speed in the nfl if you didn't know. Put that with his great hands and perfect route running, size and strength, and the speed is almost irrevalant. If it wasn't he wouldn't be able to do what he does every week. .Only small and slim wr's (besides pure freaks like Calvin Johnson etc.), rb's, and cb's are 4.4 and under. Safetys usually run 4.5-4.6 range. Plus game speed is different from a 50 yard dash at the Combine anyway.

[ndPac]

if both WR have 100 yards and 2 TDs then does it really matter how many catches it took them to get there?

if anything the guy do that with less catches would be better because that would mean he has a much higher average...


Ummm yes. . . All I was saying is that if he wants to compare dropped passes keep in mind that Fitzgerald gets more that double the passes thrown at him than Moss, hence the chance of dropping the ball more.

[-primetime-]

Moss is the best deep ball receiver in the history of the NFL. That is where it ends, though. He is a horrible route runner, drops the ball in traffic, has given up his team numerous times over the course of his career, is maybe the least physical receiver in the NFL, and he has disappeared in big games.

Moss' talents are undeniable. Speed, leaping, hands, size... He has all of those things in spades.

Fitzgerald, meanwhile, excels in the areas that Moss struggles in. To say that Fitz is as slow as a tightend is just flat-out ludicrous. It makes me think you have never seen him play. He will never be one of the biggest speed burners in the league, but slow he is not.

Put Fitz on that Patriots' team from last season and see if he also breaks every record in the books...
your knocks on Moss on ridiculous..."least physical"???..."horrible route runner"???

and "what-if"s don't work here...

"IF" Moss had played on the Pats his entire career he would be close to already passing up Rice's records...

"IF" Moss was on those Montana/Young 49er teams he would have exceeded Rice...

"IF"....doesn't work


the only thing Moss may lack in his game is the ability to go through the middle like Owens does...however I could show you a few examples where he does, just like you can show me a few examples of Fitz breaking free...

[-primetime-]

LoL, I guess Fitzgerald isn't a great wr because he isn't the fastest player in the nfl. . . Good point. :rolleyes:

And 4.53 is just about the average wr speed in the nfl if you didn't know. Put that with his great hands and perfect route running, size and strength, and the speed is almost irrevalant. If it wasn't he wouldn't be able to do what he does every week. .Only small and slim wr's (besides pure freaks like Calvin Johnson etc.), rb's, and cb's are 4.4 and under. Safetys usually run 4.5-4.6 range. Plus game speed is different from a 50 yard dash at the Combine anyway.
I don't care if anyone has Fitz at #2...(even though I don't agree)

I am just argueing Moss vs. Fitz...that is all

FITZ IS "GREAT"...FANTASTIC...ECT...

[RedBlackAttack]

your knocks on Moss on ridiculous..."least physical"???..."horrible route runner"???

It isn't a knock... it is a fact. Moss' horrible route running is a well-known subject for which he has taken a lot of heat over the years. That is the reason that he runs, almost exclusively, streaks, posts, and hitches. You will NEVER see him running the kinds of intricate routes that Fitzgerald does and finding the open area in the zone the way that Fitzgerald does. That just isn't in Moss' arsenal.

There is also no doubt about his lack of physicality... which is why you rarely, if ever, see him running crossing routes over the middle or blocking well on running plays.

Hardly ridiculous assertions.

[-primetime-]

It isn't a knock... it is a fact. Moss' horrible route running is a well-known subject for which he has taken a lot of heat over the years. That is the reason that he runs, almost exclusively, streaks, posts, and hitches. You will NEVER see him running the kinds of intricate routes that Fitzgerald does and finding the open area in the zone the way that Fitzgerald does. That just isn't in Moss' arsenal.

There is also no doubt about his lack of physicality... which is why you rarely, if ever, see him running crossing routes over the middle or blocking well on running plays.

Hardly ridiculous assertions.
you just listed a bunch of ..."routes"

I already said one of his knocks is running up the middle...but with him it hardly matters....there are plenty of times he has run through the middle before...even in the vid I gave you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aitKOOdnxBg

just 12 seconds in


there is no reason to turn Moss into something he is not...he is the sickest deep threat the game has ever seen...do you have any idea what that does for an offense when a WR is a magnet to 3 DBs every play???

ask Welker how he got his numbers...

Moss doesn't have a Boldin to take pressure off him...(yeah, I know he has been injured this year)

[GOBB]

Moss played with Culpepper, Cris Carter, Robert Smith. He was apart of an explosive offense already. What did Moss end up doing? Quitting on the team. Minnesota got spanked by NYG 41-0 and Moss was a NON FACTOR. What did Moss say after the game? "I dont think this team can win the SB. I dont think this team is even good enough to win the SB". But again Moss was a non factor. Same Moss who said I play when I want when sportsmedia questioned him giving up on plays, only caring when his number is called, half assing it out there, blocking when he feels like it. His response is so what? I dont need to go 100% every play. I dont and wont change. He's quit on 2 football teams so far in his career.

But yes if he played with the NE Pats he'd shatter every WR record known to man. Randy Moss is a fairweather player. When everything is peaches n cream? Moss provides. When the team is at a rock and a hard place? When the situation is dire? When the team is facing adversity and needs guys to make sacrifices? Randy Moss hits the eject button. He wants no part of it. He wants everything to be perfect. When things arent? He is nowhere to be found. And the sad part is he will even say that much.

But did anyone here hear a PEEP out of Andre Johnson playing for the friggin Texans his entire career? He even signed a new deal keeping his ass there. Now he could have gone to a better team surrounding by talent. He could have complained about the lackluster QB performance. But he didnt. He went out and gave 100% and guess what? Produced. Randy Moss quits. He's a quiter. So this whole if Randy Moss was in NE his whole career crap? Shut it. The game, the weeks, the postseason where the shyt hits the fan? And NE finds themselves hanging on a limb? Moss has already bailed on you. When the enemy is getting close and outnumbering you 100 to 20. Randy Moss running for daylight. But if the situation was reverse? Oh he is Rambo that day.


Just like a fairweather fan only cheers, pokes thier chest out when the team is winning, getting titles. But when they are 0-16 you cant find them. They arent cheering. They dont care about football. But next year if they are 16-0? Pom Poms come out. So miss me with that BS about Moss playing his entire career in NE. He already bailed on a situation that wasnt bad in Minny.

If Cris Carter posted here he'd quote me and cosign then REP my ass. I like Moss no doubt but I also know what you get with him. Just like I like T.Owens but you know what you get with him as well. Its no secret. Same with Plax. Jerry Reese said he wouldnt rule out bringing Plax back because he is an integral part in the NYG offense and expressed he would have changed everything had he not been out. Why? Teams defended NYG differently with him gone. But he is a guy who is a headcase. So long as you acknowledge that when you accept him on your team. Cant cry/whine afterwards.

Thats Moss. Thats T.Owens. Thats Plax. So all this Moss chanting you're doing? Pump brakes. I dont recall the greatest WR named Jerry Rice having any issues you had to accept when bringing him aboard. Same with Marvin Harrison. Not trying to shyt on Moss but lets keep this in perspective. Dont act like you forgot who Randy Moss is. Seems that 1 spectacular year made you forget HIS TRUE CHARACTER. A quitter!

[-primetime-]

Moss played 7 years with the Vikes before he left...and I don't remember him complaining the first 5-6 years

lets see if Andre or Fitz can last that long on their teams without wanting to leave...I am betting they will want to leave sooner or later.

*unless the Cards pull off a SB win this year of course...:D



Owens was with the 49ers 7 years....crying in the endzone and all

[InspiredLebowski]

It's still Marvin Harrison. Disagree and he'll shoot you in the face.

[TakitoEspanoza]

It's still Marvin Harrison. Disagree and he'll shoot you in the face.


lol

[-primetime-]

This is a problem that Ocho-Cinco is going through right now as well...(another top WR that everyone has thrown out)

how long can a top WR play on a crap team before he yells "ENOUGH!!!"

Rice was never put in that situation...

Wayne and Harrison were never either...

neither were Bruce or Holt...



anytime an NFL player is labeled a "quitter" for being on a bad team the name BARRY SANDERS should pop in their head first...

[InspiredLebowski]

neither were Bruce or Holt...

Holt and Bruce haven't played on crap teams? Really?

[-primetime-]

Holt and Bruce haven't played on crap teams? Really?
well, they already got their rings and are now at the end of their careers...

kinda hard for them to want out and try and get a top dollar contract on a good team now...

[Spudjjay]

Ftiz, Boldin, Marshall, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Moss, Steve Smith, Jennings, Calvin, Roddy White are all better than TO.

And I'd still take guys like Dwayne Bowe, Colston, Antonio Bryant and Hines Ward over him any day.

I don't know where to put Braylon right now :ohwell:

This may be true, but none of these guys(except Moss) will come close to the career numbers Owens has.

[Carbine]

You can name all Randy' faults but at the end of the day he's the most dynamic play-maker (and that's what it's about, making plays that swing momentum) that position has ever seen. He's one year removed from breaking records. Let's be realistic for a second, Matt Cassel isn't the type of quarterback to take advantage of Randy Moss' skills down the field. That's why he's the best in the game - his ability to do things down the field. You can't take advantage of Moss if you don't have a guy who can get the ball deep.

Randy Moss without a guy who can throw the deep ball? Top 10 receiver.

Randy Moss with a guy who can throw it deep? Best in the game.

Until Moss has shown signs of slowing down with someone capable of throwing the deep ball he's still the best.

He had, what... three big plays all year? And still ended up with around 70 receptions for 1000 yards and 11 touchdowns. You add all those deep balls he can catch with someone capable of throwing the ball down the field and he's having his usual 1300/1400 yard, 15 touchdown season.

[TakitoEspanoza]

This may be true, but none of these guys(except Moss) will come close to the career numbers Owens has.


BS

[lefthook00]

Moss played with Culpepper, Cris Carter, Robert Smith. He was apart of an explosive offense already. What did Moss end up doing? Quitting on the team. Minnesota got spanked by NYG 41-0 and Moss was a NON FACTOR. What did Moss say after the game? "I dont think this team can win the SB. I dont think this team is even good enough to win the SB". But again Moss was a non factor. Same Moss who said I play when I want when sportsmedia questioned him giving up on plays, only caring when his number is called, half assing it out there, blocking when he feels like it. His response is so what? I dont need to go 100% every play. I dont and wont change. He's quit on 2 football teams so far in his career.

But yes if he played with the NE Pats he'd shatter every WR record known to man. Randy Moss is a fairweather player. When everything is peaches n cream? Moss provides. When the team is at a rock and a hard place? When the situation is dire? When the team is facing adversity and needs guys to make sacrifices? Randy Moss hits the eject button. He wants no part of it. He wants everything to be perfect. When things arent? He is nowhere to be found. And the sad part is he will even say that much.

But did anyone here hear a PEEP out of Andre Johnson playing for the friggin Texans his entire career? He even signed a new deal keeping his ass there. Now he could have gone to a better team surrounding by talent. He could have complained about the lackluster QB performance. But he didnt. He went out and gave 100% and guess what? Produced. Randy Moss quits. He's a quiter. So this whole if Randy Moss was in NE his whole career crap? Shut it. The game, the weeks, the postseason where the shyt hits the fan? And NE finds themselves hanging on a limb? Moss has already bailed on you. When the enemy is getting close and outnumbering you 100 to 20. Randy Moss running for daylight. But if the situation was reverse? Oh he is Rambo that day.


Just like a fairweather fan only cheers, pokes thier chest out when the team is winning, getting titles. But when they are 0-16 you cant find them. They arent cheering. They dont care about football. But next year if they are 16-0? Pom Poms come out. So miss me with that BS about Moss playing his entire career in NE. He already bailed on a situation that wasnt bad in Minny.

If Cris Carter posted here he'd quote me and cosign then REP my ass. I like Moss no doubt but I also know what you get with him. Just like I like T.Owens but you know what you get with him as well. Its no secret. Same with Plax. Jerry Reese said he wouldnt rule out bringing Plax back because he is an integral part in the NYG offense and expressed he would have changed everything had he not been out. Why? Teams defended NYG differently with him gone. But he is a guy who is a headcase. So long as you acknowledge that when you accept him on your team. Cant cry/whine afterwards.

Thats Moss. Thats T.Owens. Thats Plax. So all this Moss chanting you're doing? Pump brakes. I dont recall the greatest WR named Jerry Rice having any issues you had to accept when bringing him aboard. Same with Marvin Harrison. Not trying to shyt on Moss but lets keep this in perspective. Dont act like you forgot who Randy Moss is. Seems that 1 spectacular year made you forget HIS TRUE CHARACTER. A quitter!

I agree, but Moss' better is better than your(or anyone else) better...

[GOBB]

I agree, but Moss' better is better than your(or anyone else) better...

Moss is arguably the best WR in the NFL. Never disputed that. But I cant sit here and watch other elite WRs get nit picked about thier games like Randy Moss is flawless. He simply isnt.

But my better is Larry Fitzgerald. Win for the Moss taker. Win for the Fitz taker. We'd argue til our fingers go number or post counts are high that gives clowns on here ammo to diss you on.

Agree to disagree.

Calvin Johnson has the potential to enter this convo soon altho Moss might be on his way down by that time. He's a beast.


Randy Moss without a guy who can throw the deep ball? Top 10 receiver.

Randy Moss with a guy who can throw it deep? Best in the game.

Larry Fitz doesnt need a guy who can throw the deep ball to be arguably the best in the game. Neither does Steve Smith. Think about that for a second. Guys whose game arent dependant on the deep ball to not only be productive but impact a team.

Best WR is like Kobe, Wade, Lebron in who is the better player.

[Carbine]

You're right, but it's not like Moss needs a guy to be some super-human thrower, he just needs someone who can throw it deep. That's not asking much for you to be at your absolute best. Guys who can throw the deep ball adequet enough for Moss are plentyful in the NFL. Just happens that Cassel isn't one of them.

Is Fitz a better wideout because he doesn't need someone to throw the deep ball? I'm not so sure about that. It just means he's a more complete wide receiver, but not being complete never stopped Shaq from being the most dominant player maybe ever. Moss' unique ability to make catch after catch for long gaines and touchdowns and impact coverages is what makes him the best. He's so good that everyone knows he runs deep routes most of the time, and he still catches it. He's the type of dude to look you square in the face, tell you he's gonna run a fly route and catch it. You know it's coming and you can't stop it unless you roll a lot of coverage his way, which in the end might be exactly what they (Patriots, in this case) want you to do.

[-primetime-]

Larry Fitz doesnt need a guy who can throw the deep ball to be arguably the best in the game. Neither does Steve Smith. Think about that for a second. Guys whose game arent dependant on the deep ball to not only be productive but impact a team.
they might if Brady is healthy...:D

hell maybe even just Culpepper...


Best WR is like Kobe, Wade, Lebron in who is the better player.
decent anology...and I am fine with it I guess

although Wade is overrated...:D


no one should be called stupid for saying Moss, Fitz, Andre, Smith, and yes, EVEN OWENS, are currrently the best WR in the NFL...

I can see arguements for each...I just think my arguement for Moss is the best...:D

good thread here btw...

[GOBB]

I can live with that because Randy Moss is amazing. We're arguing over some elite WR studs who impact the game. All good with me. Same with T.Owens, when he came to Philly the offense was the best I've seen as an Eagles fan.

Great players, some just have baggage you may want to carry or not.

[-primetime-]

I can live with that because Randy Moss is amazing. We're arguing over some elite WR studs who impact the game. All good with me. Same with T.Owens, when he came to Philly the offense was the best I've seen as an Eagles fan.

Great players, some just have baggage you may want to carry or not.
speaking of "baggage"...

It kinda irks me that Steve Smith can beat the piss out of his own teammate...get suspended...and for some reason it gets forgotten...

If Owens did that then...yeah.



Could there possibly be anything more "locker room dividing" than beating up someone on your own team?...you can't tell me it wasn't akward after that...probably still is.

[GOBB]

Fights between teammates happen. Check training camp. *shrugs*

[-primetime-]

Fights between teammates happen. Check training camp. *shrugs*
not like the one Smith got into...which prompted a 2 game suspention...


just sayin that seems like it got wiped under the rug and no one cares about it...where as Owens can say he wants the ball and everyone decides he is a team killer.

[GOBB]

SF, Philly...kinda support the team killer argument.

[TakitoEspanoza]

Good call original poster.:applause:

[RedBlackAttack]

I have not read all five pages, so forgive me if I am repeating what has already been said, but I figured I would give my two cents...

I really believe Fitz separated himself this season. He is the best, most complete receiver in the L. Hell... he might be the best PLAYER in the NFL.

The guy has no describable weakness. He is uber-athletic and one of, if not the best at going up and getting the ball at its highest point. He is one of, if not the best big play receiver (consistently). He has the best hands in the league. He is deceptively fast.

What really separates him from other big play guys, though, is his superb route running. The guy is like a robot. You NEVER see him being chewed out on the sidelines for running an out instead of a curl. You NEVER see him doing a 'my bad' sign after a missed route.

To top it off, unlike most receivers in the league, he doesn't seem to be a primadonna in any way, shape, or form. You never hear him complaining that he needs the ball more and you don't see him doing crazy 'look at me' celebrations after making a play.

If I were to design the perfect receiver, it would probably be Larry Fitzgerald.
Good call, me.


wow...sorry but that vid just shows how ridiculously slow he is...there is almost nothing there where a DB isn't all over him...

Now he does always seem to somehow catch the ball amazingly...but he never breaks away after the catch...

I wouldn't mind seeing him do that stuff on a CB that is a "playmaker"...

We will see if he can get away with that stuff on Asante in the NFC Championship game....I am betting he won't be able to.


I remember 4.63 btw...his major knock coming out of the draft

Bad call, -pt-

[-primetime-]

Moss last year > Fitz this year

that is all


lol @ "good call, me"

[sunsfan1357]

Fitz already has the record for most receiving yards in a postseason with 419 and a Super Bowl still to play.

[-primetime-]

Fitz already has the record for most receiving yards in a postseason with 419 and a Super Bowl still to play.
could you show me a link to the past record holders on this?

I find it hard to believe that Rice doesn have that beat...

[sunsfan1357]

could you show me a link to the past record holders on this?

I find it hard to believe that Rice doesn have that beat...

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=290118022

It's the ESPN recap, there's the little box that has the stats, Rice is second at 409 in the '88 postseason

[AirGauge23]

could you show me a link to the past record holders on this?

I find it hard to believe that Rice doesn have that beat...

They said it in the game.

Rice had the record.

Can't remember what it was though.

[ALaz502]

:oldlol: primetime got owned.

[-primetime-]

damn...

getting a little harder to argue Moss > Fitz

esp if Fitz goes off against whichever monster defense he faces in the SB...

[AirGauge23]

damn...

getting a little harder to argue Moss > Fitz

esp if Fitz goes off against whichever monster defense he faces in the SB...

Over/Under he finishes with 500+ ?

[TakitoEspanoza]

I doubt Rice ever had 4 games since his teams always got a bye (probably)

[-primetime-]

Over/Under he finishes with 500+ ?
all he needs is 81 yards for that...

600+ seems more likely...

but probably like 550..

Warner is gonna have it hard no matter which team they play...

[-primetime-]

I doubt Rice ever had 4 games since his teams always got a bye (probably)
psshhh...

good point, never even thought of that.

extra game for Fitz...

[sunsfan1357]

I doubt Rice ever had 4 games since his teams always got a bye (probably)

Well Fitz broke it through 3 games, which is what Rice played in 88 so the record seems pretty legit.

[GOBB]

If anything was proven is this talk of Larry Fitz speed was meaningless. What I saw is Larry Fitz score how many TDs? Oh 3. He damn sure didnt need to Usain BOLT to get them either now did he? I didnt think he did. So yeah Randy Moss is faster no doubt about it. But like my argument stated which cant be countered. Being faster doesnt make you BETTER. And Larry Fitz speed isnt slow enough where he is solely a possession WR. He's decievingly fast and thats good enough.

But like I said if anyone watched the game today. Tell me how his 4.657777777 40 time factored much. I mean if he ran a 4.1333333333 40 time he would have DOUBLE his statistical production? You tell me. (no this doesnt require you to answer me literally either).

[-primetime-]

If anything was proven is this talk of Larry Fitz speed was meaningless. What I saw is Larry Fitz score how many TDs? Oh 3. He damn sure didnt need to Usain BOLT to get them either now did he? I didnt think he did. So yeah Randy Moss is faster no doubt about it. But like my argument stated which cant be countered. Being faster doesnt make you BETTER. And Larry Fitz speed isnt slow enough where he is solely a possession WR. He's decievingly fast and thats good enough.

But like I said if anyone watched the game today. Tell me how his 4.657777777 40 time factored much. I mean if he ran a 4.1333333333 40 time he would have DOUBLE his statistical production? You tell me. (no this doesnt require you to answer me literally either).
no offense but the entire first half of the game it looked as though the Eagles game plan didn't even know that Fitz existed...

[RedBlackAttack]

no offense but the entire first half of the game it looked as though the Eagles game plan didn't even know that Fitz existed...
Come on, -pt-. You can't honestly believe that the Eagles disregarded Fitz in their gameplan.

Two things allowed Fitz to go off the way he did....

1. Jim Johnson had too much confidence in his excellent cornerbacks to be able to defend Fitz. It was a reasonable miscue, since the Eagles' secondary is loaded with talent. But, they hadn't seen anything like this year's version of Fitz and it showed.

2. The Eagles' blitzing packages allowed Warner and Fitz to get a lot of hot reads, which is one of the main things that makes Fitz so great... His ability to read a defense and find the soft spot in the zone.

Jim Johnson is a blitz crazy defensive coordinator. That is one of the reasons that they were in the title game in the first place. He isn't going to completely change his stripes and just try to contain WRs for one game. You have to go with what got you there.

Even still, Johnson was matching his best guys on Fitz every play and, when they went to the zone blitz packages, they were clearly aware and concerned about him.

He is just incredible at reading defenses. It wasn't a case of Philly being unaware of Fitz. It was just an example of why Fitz is the best receiver in the NFL... And I don't think it is particularly close at this point.

[-primetime-]

Come on, -pt-. You can't honestly believe that the Eagles disregarded Fitz in their gameplan.

Two things allowed Fitz to go off the way he did....

1. Jim Johnson had too much confidence in his excellent cornerbacks to be able to defend Fitz. It was a reasonable miscue, since the Eagles' secondary is loaded with talent. But, they hadn't seen anything like this year's version of Fitz and it showed.
In oher words he didn't bother to plan around Fitz...he just trusted his CBs


2. The Eagles' blitzing packages allowed Warner and Fitz to get a lot of hot reads, which is one of the main things that makes Fitz so great... His ability to read a defense and find the soft spot in the zone.
his route is determined in the huddle....he doesn't adjust it after reading a defense


Jim Johnson is a blitz crazy defensive coordinator. That is one of the reasons that they were in the title game in the first place. He isn't going to completely change his stripes and just try to contain WRs for one game. You have to go with what got you there.

Even still, Johnson was matching his best guys on Fitz every play and, when they went to the zone blitz packages, they were clearly aware and concerned about him.

He is just incredible at reading defenses. It wasn't a case of Philly being unaware of Fitz. It was just an example of why Fitz is the best receiver in the NFL... And I don't think it is particularly close at this point.
I have never really heard of WR reading a defense an then adjusting to it AFTER the play is called...

if a CB is giving to much cussion in a game then the OC will adjust to that...not the WR

if a team is blitzing every play then the OC will adjust to it, not the WR...or the QB will change his route with an audible if he thinks a blitz is coming...

WRs don't just decide to change their routes at the line...

[RedBlackAttack]

It happens all the time. Receivers have to adjust their routes depending on pressure. If a receiver sees that a defense is bringing the house and his route is one that takes a lot of time to develop, the receiver and quarterback need to be on the same page and there is a hot read.

Also, when a quarterback has time and is moving around in the pocket, a receiver must eventually cut off his route and find open spot. Fitz did that several times today.

[-primetime-]

It happens all the time. Receivers have to adjust their routes depending on pressure. If a receiver sees that a defense is bringing the house and his route is one that takes a lot of time to develop, the receiver and quarterback need to be on the same page and there is a hot read.

Also, when a quarterback has time and is moving around in the pocket, a receiver must eventually cut off his route and find open spot. Fitz did that several times today.
after the play is called?

never heard of that...

I know that the QB can do that..but not the WR

[GOBB]

no offense but the entire first half of the game it looked as though the Eagles game plan didn't even know that Fitz existed...

Eagles know the only way to contain Fitz is pressuring Warner. Eagles blitzed Arizona alot today and guess what? Kurt saw it coming. When you blitz? You leave guys on an island because you're 1. have confidence your corners can cover/stay with the WR and 2. banking on the pressure getting to the QB throwing off timing, forcing a bad pass. Didnt happen. Cards did a good job and also threw alot of swing, screen passes which kept Eagles D on thier toes as well. Aint much you can do covering Fitz if your D isnt getting to the QB.

[RedBlackAttack]

after the play is called?

never heard of that...

I know that the QB can do that..but not the WR
It is a combination of QB and WR. They have to be on exactly the same page. You won't see a WR walking up to the quarterback and screaming the play out to the line like you do with QBs, but they have to be able to read the defense, same as the quarterback, and know where to go.

A lot of times, when it looks like the quarterback is changing the play at the line, he is really just pointing out where the blitzes are coming from. It is the job of the receivers and tight ends to know where to go in such situations.

[GOBB]

after the play is called?

never heard of that...

I know that the QB can do that..but not the WR

This is where you delete this post or say you're drunk and didnt mean to type this nonsense. :oldlol:

[-primetime-]

This is where you delete this post or say you're drunk and didnt mean to type this nonsense. :oldlol:
you are trying to tell me that WRs decide to change their route AT THE LINE???

WITHOUT EVEN TELLING THE QB???

no...

[kidachi]

I'm now convinced that I should be in the Larry Fitzgerald bandwagon. :D

[RedBlackAttack]

you are trying to tell me that WRs decide to change their route AT THE LINE???

WITHOUT EVEN TELLING THE QB???

no...
Read this:

http://www.ohsfca.org/Burn_the%20_blitz_with_WR_play.pdf

There is A LOT more to the wide receiver position than you are giving them credit for. It isn't just getting the call in the huddle and running that exact route regardless of what the defense does.

[-primetime-]

It is a combination of QB and WR. They have to be on exactly the same page. You won't see a WR walking up to the quarterback and screaming the play out to the line like you do with QBs, but they have to be able to read the defense, same as the quarterback, and know where to go.

A lot of times, when it looks like the quarterback is changing the play at the line, he is really just pointing out where the blitzes are coming from. It is the job of the receivers and tight ends to know where to go in such situations.
the QB has to know where to throw the damn ball dude!!!

how the hell is he going to know if it is a post to the right or the left???

he can't just guess a what the WR decided to run...

"hmm...he will probably go deep...OH damn he cut in....INT"


if the QB thinks a blitz is coming then HE is the one that will change the WRs route by yelling it at the line...not the WR...the QB

[RedBlackAttack]

the QB has to know where to throw the damn ball dude!!!

how the hell is he going to know if it is a post to the right or the left???

he can't just guess a what the WR decided to run...

"hmm...he will probably go deep...OH damn he cut in....INT"

if the QB thinks a blitz is coming then HE is the one that will change the WRs route by yelling it at the line...not the WR...the QB
Again... reading a defense is a combination of quarterbacks and wide receivers (and every other position on the field). It isn't as though the quarterbacks are the only ones that have to make the right decisions out there.

Hell... receivers even have 'option' routes, in which they read the defense and decide to either run a drag, slant, or post. What makes a great quarterback and wide receiver combination is that the QB has to trust that WR will read the defense correctly and run the correct route and the WR has to be able to trust his QB to see the same thing he is seeing and he will get the ball there.

It isn't that receivers are just making up routes at the line of scrimmage. They do have options based on the coverage, though, and the WRs and QB have to be on the same page.

[-primetime-]

Read this:

http://www.ohsfca.org/Burn_the%20_blitz_with_WR_play.pdf

There is A LOT more to the wide receiver position than you are giving them credit for. It isn't just getting the call in the huddle and running that exact route regardless of what the defense does.
this looks like a guideline for OCs...

[ndPac]

Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.



Fitz just proved it again yesterday!. . . and Kurt Warner is the REAL MVP of this season!

great to see the Cardinals finally in the Super Bowl!!!!!
:cheers:

[Brujesino]

ron jawarski just said fitz has one of the greatest hands in the history of the nfl is. he serious? i mean go ahead and say that hes the best right now but in the history lets wait a little longer

[-primetime-]

ron jawarski just said fitz has one of the greatest hands in the history of the nfl is. he serious? i mean go ahead and say that hes the best right now but in the history lets wait a little longer
Yeah I just heard that...

funny, this happens every year...

last year it was Moss...

it was Owens while Moss was a Raider...

Harrison was up there...and Holt

when Moss was a rookie everyone said he was the most dominent player to EVER PLAY THE GAME...ANY POSITION

[johndeeregreen]

the QB has to know where to throw the damn ball dude!!!

how the hell is he going to know if it is a post to the right or the left???

he can't just guess a what the WR decided to run...

"hmm...he will probably go deep...OH damn he cut in....INT"


if the QB thinks a blitz is coming then HE is the one that will change the WRs route by yelling it at the line...not the WR...the QB
Stop.

Just stop already.

[-primetime-]

Stop.

Just stop already.
no...

WRs do NOT choose their own routes at the line of scrimage...sorry

[White Chocolate]

http://www.fansedge.com/Images/Product/31-50/31-50933-F.jpg


I'm definitely buying this jersey, and also Boldin in red.

[RedBlackAttack]

no...

WRs do NOT choose their own routes at the line of scrimage...sorry
Did you even read the link I posted? Come on, -pt-...

[lefthook00]

I admit I was wrong...Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the NFL.

[White Chocolate]

I admit I was wrong...Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the NFL.


He's the best at the moment, yes. We have to wait until next year, so we know this isn't a fluke.

[statman32]

He's the best at the moment, yes. We have to wait until next year, so we know this isn't a fluke.
What the hell are you talking about? Fluke? Fitz didnt just come out of nowhere. He has been a beast from Day 1 and continues to get better.

[ndPac]

http://www.fansedge.com/Images/Product/31-50/31-50933-F.jpg


I'm definitely buying this jersey, and also Boldin in red.

Might wanna hold off on that Boldin in red...more than likely he WILL NOT be on the Cardinals next year. Nothing more I hate than wasting $80+ on a jersey when the guy is no longer on the team after I bought it

[steve]

He's the best at the moment, yes. We have to wait until next year, so we know this isn't a fluke.
He's already had two seasons of 100+ catches and 10+ receptions before this season. That's even with inconsistency at the quarterback spot up until this season.

[-primetime-]

Did you even read the link I posted? Come on, -pt-...
yes I did...

I even replied to it...

that looks like a guide line for OCs to me...not WRs

can you show me the web site where you got that or was it just some link off of google?

[-primetime-]

He's the best at the moment, yes. We have to wait until next year, so we know this isn't a fluke.
He is no fluke...

but I want to wait until next year as well to make sure my theory that Moss will blow his numbers away and remind everyone that he is Moss doesn't come true first...

*given that Brady is healthy

[lefthook00]

He is no fluke...

but I want to wait until next year as well to make sure my theory that Moss will blow his numbers away and remind everyone that he is Moss doesn't come true first...

*given that Brady is healthy

Moss vs. Fitzgerald is like Kobe vs. Lebron...

Moss has more experience, broke records, is absolutely ridiculous and can't be covered when he gets "hot", has the finess game, better scorer, faster(LBJ is faster but young Kobe is quicker than him)...

Fitzgerald is the young lion, has the younger legs, bigger, stronger, turning into an absolute beast, more well rounded(can run outside, through the middle, can block better, just like LBJ is better at assists and boards)...

And lastly, no one can decide which one is clearly better...

[TakitoEspanoza]

He's the best at the moment, yes. We have to wait until next year, so we know this isn't a fluke.


Learn NFL b4 posting again about it.:roll:

[-primetime-]

Moss vs. Fitzgerald is like Kobe vs. Lebron...

Moss has more experience, broke records, is absolutely ridiculous and can't be covered when he gets "hot", has the finess game, better scorer, faster(LBJ is faster but young Kobe is quicker than him)...

Fitzgerald is the young lion, has the younger legs, bigger, stronger, turning into an absolute beast, more well rounded(can run outside, through the middle, can block better, just like LBJ is better at assists and boards)...

And lastly, no one can decide which one is clearly better...
I agree....right now...it is all opinions at this point.

I am just betting those opinions change drastically when Brady comes back...

[TakitoEspanoza]

I agree....right now...it is all opinions at this point.

I am just betting those opinions change drastically when Brady comes back...


Fitzgerald would have those numbers as well if he had the BEST QB this generation throwing passes to him.

Brady may not be back till 2010 anyways.

[lefthook00]

I agree....right now...it is all opinions at this point.

I am just betting those opinions change drastically when Brady comes back...

For Moss/Kobe, everyone doubts him until the "old school Moss/Kobe" shows up and rapes everyone and reminds people that he still is the master...they both have shadier pasts and character questions...

Seems like Fitz is the "new" thing...

[lefthook00]

Fitzgerald would have those numbers as well if he had the BEST QB this generation throwing passes to him.

Brady may not be back till 2010 anyways.

You think it will take him that long to heal?

[RedBlackAttack]

yes I did...

I even replied to it...

that looks like a guide line for OCs to me...not WRs

can you show me the web site where you got that or was it just some link off of google?
It is a manual created by the Ohio High School Coaches Association. Keep in mind the phrase 'high school.' This is how advanced high school football is right now... Just imagine the NFL.

It is a manual showing coaches the best ways in which they can teach WRs how to read defenses and when their routes are hot.

Hell... take a look at the opening paragraphs...


Defensive backs are doing a better job at recognizing tendencies of wide receivers and breaking to the reception point. Defenses are becoming better at pattern reading and reading the footwork of the quarterback. With these new challenges and sophisticated defenses, I feel it is important for receivers to recognize when to run an assigned hot route. In order to do this they must:

1. Learn Coverages
2. Understand the drops of the underneath coverage.
3. Learn how to recognize blitz keys.

With a good basic understanding of these keys, your wide receivers should be able to identify (pre-snap) if they will be the hot receiver or not.

http://www.ohsfca.org/Burn_the%20_blitz_with_WR_play.pdf

Then, there is this...


Once your WR has applied the DEL philosophy, he should know what the coverage may be along with identifying if he is the hot receiver or not. His next objective is to identify the 1st LB in the box. (DIA.3) The term it takes 2 is constantly being used. We are running hot if the SS/OLB and 1st LB in the box blitzes to his side. He’s taught to key the 1st LB in the box. As he releases vertically, if the SS/OLB crosses his face; he runs his hot route. (DIA.4& 5) As mentioned earlier, our hot route depends on your athletes along with what you may see on a weekly basis. The speed out allows the wide receiver to stay away from dropping DL, and also in case our receiver reads it wrong; he doesn’t run into an inside LB. (DIA.6)

A slant read allows the receiver to adjust if one of his reads doesn’t come. (DIA.7) He can now slant inside and keep the route skinny if one of his reads doesn’t blitz. The blitz replace is a great answer when you anticipate both reads coming. (DIA.8) This gives you a chance to run directly into the void with the possibility of a huge gain.

A change up to that can be incorporated is, allowing your outside receiver to be hot on certain plays. (DIA.9) Allow him to take a seam release inside for approximately 3-5 yards. His reads are the same as for an inside WR. If his reads decide not to blitz, then he continues vertical and runs his assigned route. It is essential to remember to run your inside WR on a route that allows him not to be in the throwing lane if the blitz occurs.

You still do not believe that receivers have to be able to read defenses and adjust routes depending on blitzing packages or a lack thereof? This is a manual for HIGH SCHOOL and hot/option routes are still used. On the professional level, multiply this by 1,000,000x.

[-primetime-]

It is a manual created by the Ohio High School Coaches Association. Keep in mind the phrase 'high school.' This is how advanced high school football is right now... Just imagine the NFL.

It is a manual showing coaches the best ways in which they can teach WRs how to read defenses and when their routes are hot.

Hell... take a look at the opening paragraphs...



http://www.ohsfca.org/Burn_the%20_blitz_with_WR_play.pdf

Then, there is this...



You still do not believe that receivers have to be able to read defenses and adjust routes depending on blitzing packages or a lack thereof? This is a manual for HIGH SCHOOL and hot/option routes are still used. On the professional level, multiply this by 1,000,000x.
NOT AT THE LINE!!!!

there is NOTHING there that says anything about a WR calling an audible...

this is talking about reading the defense and then adjusting to it LATER IN THE GAME!!!

maybe the next play...but not RIGHT THEN AND THERE...


they read the defense and see that the CB is giving too much cussion...so the OC adjusts the routes to take advantage of that...

like I said when I first read tht thing....it looks to be a manual for OCs...not WRs

[RedBlackAttack]

NOT AT THE LINE!!!!

there is NOTHING there that says anything about a WR calling an audible...

this is talking about reading the defense and then adjusting to it LATER IN THE GAME!!!

maybe the next play...but not RIGHT THEN AND THERE...


they read the defense and see that the CB is giving too much cussion...so the OC adjusts the routes to take advantage of that...

like I said when I first read tht thing....it looks to be a manual for OCs...not WRs
There are several references in the above article to 'pre-snap' adjustments to routes by receivers, meaning before the snap when the teams are aligned.

You seem to be restricting yourself with choice of words. It isn't an 'audible' for a receiver to adjust a route at the line of scrimmage based on the defense. It is called a hot or option route.... not an audible.

I'm not going to argue with you about it any more. Just know that this is how the receiver position is played in today's game. Again... Not receivers looking at coverage and just running whatever he wants, but knowing when you are the hot receiver and when to cut-off your route, make it a skinnier pattern, etc.

Ask any football coach and they will tell you the same. THEY ARE NOT AUDIBLES. It is called knowing your hot reads.

[-primetime-]

There are several references in the above article to 'pre-snap' adjustments to routes by receivers, meaning before the snap when the teams are aligned.

You seem to be restricting yourself with choice of words. It isn't an 'audible' for a receiver to adjust a route at the line of scrimmage based on the defense. It is called a hot or option route.... not an audible.

I'm not going to argue with you about it any more. Just know that this is how the receiver position is played in today's game. Again... Not receivers looking at coverage and just running whatever he wants, but knowing when you are the hot receiver and when to cut-off your route, make it a skinnier pattern, etc.

Ask any football coach and they will tell you the same. THEY ARE NOT AUDIBLES. It is called knowing your hot reads.
show me that please...

[RedBlackAttack]

show me that please...

Here:


I would first like to say it is an honor to write this article on behalf of the Rick Comegy and the Jackson State University staff. With the emergence of the spread offense in the game of football, defenses have become more complex with the ability to rush defenders from a number of areas on the field. Coverages have also become more complex with the ability of secondaries to read routes. Defensive backs are doing a better job at recognizing tendencies of wide receivers and breaking to the reception point. Defenses are becoming better at pattern reading and reading the footwork of the quarterback. With these new challenges and sophisticated defenses, I feel it is important for receivers to recognize when to run an assigned hot route. In order to do this they must:

1. Learn Coverages
2. Understand the drops of the underneath coverage.
3. Learn how to recognize blitz keys.

With a good basic understanding of these keys, your wide receivers should be able to identify (pre-snap) if they will be the hot receiver or not.

http://www.ohsfca.org/Burn_the%20_blitz_with_WR_play.pdf

You are just arguing for arguments' sake, now.

[ndPac]

show me that please...


if a wr notices a blitz coming from a linebacker or cornerback at times he yells to the qb or makes eye contact prior to the snap to run a hot route like a slant. . usually its picked up by the qb 1st because the 1st thing they do is try and read the defense.

An example of this happened in this game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUaz5oEhUcw&feature=related

[ndPac]

You still do not believe that receivers have to be able to read defenses and adjust routes depending on blitzing packages or a lack thereof? This is a manual for HIGH SCHOOL and hot/option routes are still used. On the professional level, multiply this by 1,000,000x.

LOL exactly. . If anyone does not know this they obviously have never played organized football or even keeps up to date with watching live games for that matter. Announcers comment on it all the time

[-primetime-]

Here:



http://www.ohsfca.org/Burn_the%20_blitz_with_WR_play.pdf

You are just arguing for arguments' sake, now.
you are reading that wrong dude...that is saying that the WR should be able to look at the defense and know if the QB will target him based on his route...(which was predetermined)


example:

the QB sees that a blitz is coming...the WR with teh short route should know that most likely the QB will be looking his way first...


it is you that is just arguing for arguments' sake...not myself



if you prove that a WR changing his own route is common in the NFL then trust me...I will stop arguing with you...but have yet to show me anything.

[-primetime-]

LOL exactly. . If anyone does not know this they obviously have never played organized football or even keeps up to date with watching live games for that matter. Announcers comment on it all the time
I played WR/CB in school...granted it isn't the NFL but I don't think you know what RBA is trying to claim here...

he is claiming that WRs in the NFL determine what route they will run AT THE LINE...

that just isn't true at all...

QBs will do that...sure...

but not WRs

[-primetime-]

if a wr notices a blitz coming from a linebacker or cornerback at times he yells to the qb or makes eye contact prior to the snap to run a hot route like a slant. . usually its picked up by the qb 1st because the 1st thing they do is try and read the defense.

An example of this happened in this game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUaz5oEhUcw&feature=related
I didn't see the WR change his route in that clip...:confusedshrug:

"usually" as in ALLWAYS

Peyton changes the play at the line ALL THE TIME...it is called an audible

but I have NEVER seen or heard of a WR doing this

[RedBlackAttack]

If you think a hot route is simply getting the ball to the receiver with the shortest designed route, I don't know why I'm bothering with this. But, I'll post this interview with a successful college coach as an FYI.



Stanley Conner is the offensive coordinator and running backs coach for Alabama A&M. Before joining the Bulldog staff, Conner was a four-year letterman at Jackson St. University where he helped the Tigers earn four Southwestern Athletic Conference titles. Following graduation, Conner played with the New Orleans Breakers of the USFL and the Ottawa Rough Riders of the CFL before settling down into his coaching role. In his time around the sport of football, Conner has learned just about everything an offense would need to know to run a hot route successfully.

"A hot route means the defense is blitzing, and the job of the quarterback is to get the ball out of his hands," he said. "Just like how you react when you touch something hot, you give it a quick response. So when we say hot route, we're referring to the quick response you're going to have to give to react to that blitz."

Specifically, how does an offense know when to call a hot route?

"Most of the time, when a safety comes up to the middle of the field, he's telling you that they are more than likely going to run a blitz," Conner said. "So if that happens, the receiver is expected to run a certain route and the quarterback is expected to locate him at that particular time. The free safety's primary job is to stay in the middle of the field. Whenever he moves from that position, he's alerting you that something is different with the defense. We call that sight adjustments."

http://www.essortment.com/articles/football-hot-routes_5877.htm

Note at the top of the page how 'hot route' is defined as a CHANGE IN THE RECEIVER'S ROUTE.

:hammerhead:

[-primetime-]

If you think a hot route is simply getting the ball to the receiver with the shortest designed route, I don't know why I'm bothering with this. But, I'll post this interview with a successful college coach as an FYI.



http://www.essortment.com/articles/football-hot-routes_5877.htm

Note at the top of the page how 'hot route' is defined as a CHANGE IN THE RECEIVER'S ROUTE.

:hammerhead:
hmm...

couple things...

1. THAT IS STILL PREDETERMIND!!!

2. That doesn't say anything about the WR being the one on the team that calls for a hot route...I am thinking he means that the "QB" needs to recongnize this and change it at the line...and then "THE WR IS EXPECTED TO RUN A CERTAIN ROUTE"...

[RedBlackAttack]

hmm...

couple things...

1. THAT IS STILL PREDETERMIND!!!

2. That doesn't say anything about the WR being the one on the team that calls for a hot route...I am thinking he means that the "QB" needs to recongnize this and change it at the line...and then "THE WR IS EXPECTED TO RUN A CERTAIN ROUTE"...
IT IS THE JOB OF BOTH THE QB AND THE WR TO RECOGNIZE THE BLITZ AND REACT CORRECTLY!

He didn't say anything about an audible being called because the quarterback doesn't need to call it. Of course it is predetermined. It is a predetermined change in the WRs route based on the blitzing package.

Coaches study film, find tendencies by a defense, and prepare by alerting BOTH QBs and WRs of the hot routes and what reads to make based on pre-snap movement by the defense.

It doesn't have to be an audible by the QB and, in fact, it usually isn't. A lot of Manning's running around and pointing is just about alerting the rest of the team to where the blitzes are coming from. It is still the job of the WRs to read the defense and run the correct hot route if the situation calls for it.

I'm out...

[johndeeregreen]

Primetime, as a guy, obviously we have a mechanism within us that hates admitting when we're wrong, but you're taking this to all new levels. It's beyond pathetic and you are truly embarrassing yourself here. If you can't see that, you're even more arrogant than I thought.

[-primetime-]

IT IS THE JOB OF BOTH THE QB AND THE WR TO RECOGNIZE THE BLITZ AND REACT CORRECTLY!
true but it is the QBs job at the line to call for it to make sure everyone is on the same page...


He didn't say anything about an audible being called because the quarterback doesn't need to call it. Of course it is predetermined. It is a predetermined change in the WRs route based on the blitzing package.

Coaches study film, find tendencies by a defense, and prepare by alerting BOTH QBs and WRs of the hot routes and what reads to make based on pre-snap movement by the defense.

It doesn't have to be an audible by the QB and, in fact, it usually isn't. A lot of Manning's running around and pointing is just about alerting the rest of the team to where the blitzes are coming from. It is still the job of the WRs to read the defense and run the correct hot route if the situation calls for it.

I'm out...
I don't believe this...

neither one of us play in the NFL or really know the different teams game plan...

this arguement started by you tring to claim that Fitz picks his routes at the line by reading the defense...something you claim that Moss isn't capable of...

then you changed to "hot routes" based on blitzes...and showed me a OC manual as evedince...


please don't act like I am ttrying to be hard headed here and refuse to listen or give you any credit....it isn't the truth...

I will admitt that in some cases maybe you are right...maybe the WR does change his route on his own without a signal from the QB...I am just betting that it is wrong or very rare at the least.

[-primetime-]

Primetime, as a guy, obviously we have a mechanism within us that hates admitting when we're wrong, but you're taking this to all new levels. It's beyond pathetic and you are truly embarrassing yourself here. If you can't see that, you're even more arrogant than I thought.
if I really thought I was wrong about this I promise I would admitt it...

I grew up in a football family, grew up playing it and watched both college and pro football my entire life...

he came inot this trying to claim that it is common for a WR to decide what route he is going to run when he lines up and sees the defense...

[-primetime-]

2. The Eagles' blitzing packages allowed Warner and Fitz to get a lot of hot reads, which is one of the main things that makes Fitz so great... His ability to read a defense and find the soft spot in the zone.

He is just incredible at reading defenses. It wasn't a case of Philly being unaware of Fitz. It was just an example of why Fitz is the best receiver in the NFL... And I don't think it is particularly close at this point.
THIS...

this is what started this whole thing...

right here

[Carbine]

I can't speak for certain on other teams and wideouts, but I know for a fact that Peyton and Marvin have a lot of option routes (or had, looks like Marvin won't be coming back) in which when Marvin got to the line and seen the way the corner was playing him, he would run a specific route to counter it - and Peyton knew it. Obviously they have one of the unique bonds on the field between any quarterback/wideout but it's something that, with time, can be achieved. It's called chemistry.

For example, if it's 3rd and 8 and Marvin is suppose to run a fly pattern and sees the corner play outside technique pre-snap, Marvin will run a inside slant for eight yards or whatever. This takes hours and hours of talking, practicing and being around someone to know exactly what they will do without communicating to them, but that's what made them special.

[-primetime-]

I can't speak for certain on other teams and wideouts, but I know for a fact that Peyton and Marvin have a lot of option routes (or had, looks like Marvin won't be coming back) in which when Marvin got to the line and seen the way the corner was playing him, he would run a specific route to counter it - and Peyton knew it. Obviously they have one of the unique bonds on the field between any quarterback/wideout but it's something that, with time, can be achieved. It's called chemistry.

For example, if it's 3rd and 8 and Marvin is suppose to run a fly pattern and sees the corner play outside technique pre-snap, Marvin will run a inside slant for eight yards or whatever. This takes hours and hours of talking, practicing and being around someone to know exactly what they will do without communicating to them, but that's what made them special.
let me start by saying that I am not trying to argue with you here...clearly you are more familiar with the Colts than myself...

however I have seen plenty of Colt's games...

Would you not say it is fair to say that it is PEYTON that is reading the defense and calling the routes as he sees fit at the line rather than Harrison???

You give the impression that the have a silent bond of options and they don't have to comunicate it before the play...WHICH IS 100% believeable if it is just 2 or 3 routes tops...but Peyton is CONSTANTLY yelling and pointing at the line...not Marvin

:confusedshrug:

[ndPac]

I didn't see the WR change his route in that clip...:confusedshrug:

"usually" as in ALLWAYS

Peyton changes the play at the line ALL THE TIME...it is called an audible

but I have NEVER seen or heard of a WR doing this


They didn't show the wr making a change..because for one, the wr does not want to show what he is going to do to make it obvious to the defense....if you had watched that game live they said after the game that that wasn't the intended route the wr was suppose to run, but since he saw the blitz coming in and only 1 safety he ran the best route to beat the safety on that particular play, which happened to be a slant. . .The qb picked up on it within less than a second that it chose to do that.
At that level they almost do that subconsciously if they notice something. Not to say it happens all the time, but it does happen. Just like the poster above said, its been known that Peyton and Harrison would do that because their chemistry was so good together.

I really don't even know what you are arguing at this point..well i do see what you are arguing but I just don't know why lol...Oh well. Whatever

[-primetime-]

They didn't show the wr making a change..because for one, the wr does not want to show what he is going to do to make it obvious to the defense....if you had watched that game live they said after the game that that wasn't the intended route the wr was suppose to run, but since he saw the blitz coming in and only 1 safety he ran the best route to beat the safety on that particular play, which happened to be a slant. . .The qb picked up on it within less than a second that it chose to do that.
At that level they almost do that subconsciously if they notice something. Not to say it happens all the time, but it does happen. Just like the poster above said, its been known that Peyton and Harrison would do that because their chemistry was so good together.

I really don't even know what you are arguing at this point..well i do see what you are arguing but I just don't know why lol...Oh well. Whatever
RBA was using Fitz's supposed route changing abilities as a reason why he is the best WR in the NFL...

that is why...it is on topic with the thread.

[Carbine]

Peyton is always yelling pre-snap, that doesn't mean he's changing the play. He does that at times just for the sake of doing it.

Peyton calls out a lot of protections for his line, 75% of the time that's what his yelling is all about. All it takes for Marvin and Peyton is a simple look.

Both are very smart, and Peyton is probably without question the best pre-snap quarterback in the league. If he sees Marvins guy playing outside technique on 3rd and eight it's going to be a slant. He doesn't need to broadcast that. You have to remember that when you're with someone for that long you talk about every situation possible about 1000 times. They know what each other is thinking.

[-primetime-]

Peyton is always yelling pre-snap, that doesn't mean he's changing the play. He does that at times just for the sake of doing it.

Peyton calls out a lot of protections for his line, 75% of the time that's what his yelling is all about. All it takes for Marvin and Peyton is a simple look.

Both are very smart, and Peyton is probably without question the best pre-snap quarterback in the league. If he sees Marvins guy playing outside technique on 3rd and eight it's going to be a slant. He doesn't need to broadcast that. You have to remember that when you're with someone for that long you talk about every situation possible about 1000 times. They know what each other is thinking.
I am not claiming you are wrong and that is very believable...at least with them...

but how could you possibly know this?

was this talked about on some sports special or something?


*on a side note I find it hard to believe that Fitz and Warner have achieved this kind of chemistry, so many different defenses and teams...and having Boldin on the team would make that even more comlex...

this also assumes that some plays (like the flea flicker to Fitz) are unchangeable routes no matter what...so I guess they have to find a way to call that in the huddle as well???

[-primetime-]

alright RBA...

I have bumped this to admitt that I was wrong...(EXTREMLY RARE FOR ME)

I started this thread because of of our debate on a real NFL forum:

mixed opinions...

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317080

the names "Peyton" and "Harrison" came up alot...

there were some that claimed that is "nerf football"....no WR plans out his own route...

THEN THERE WAS THIS:


Option routes are always a good idea to have in your arsenal of plays. They are easy to learn, the reads are easy to make, they are very effective against blitzing defenses, zones, and man to man secondaries.

Diagramed is a simple to run, not so simple to defend, option route from a 4 Wide formation. These plays don't take much time to run but you always need a pass protection scheme and this one is pretty good considering the number of receivers actually running routes.

The center will help away from (to the left) the play. This is because we want enough blockers on the left to pick up a blitz and we will read for blitz on the right with the primary receiver (in this case the T back). The T will sit down in the area that the LB vacated for a blitz. If the LB does not blitz but instead drops deeper the T will stay where he is until the QB pumps to him then he will run an out. If the LB does not blitz or drop the T will simply sit down then run the out and look for the ball very soon into the out.

Here is what the QB is looking for.

The outside LB (Rover) is he being pulled to the sideline by the slot's out route? If not throw the ball to the receiver running the out. This read must be made very quickly.
If the LB blitzing or dropping back? If he is throw the ball to the T as he sits down in the vacated area.
If the LB is staying put, pump to the T then reload and throw the out route prior to the LB recovering.
Every now and then we will face a defense that makes a little sit and post move open. We will from time to time use this option as well. It is diagramed as a dashed line after the T sit down.

We have experimented with letting the primary receiver run to any area he needs to to get open. We have had some success with his as well but I think it is always hard for football coaches to call these types of plays (less structured). We tag these plays as "get open" plays. It is a good idea to have a play like this for one of your receivers (usually your quickest). The receivers around him must know the complimentary routes to run in conjunction with the play. We would call something like that

Renegade C Get Open or wrist band it as (Ren C get open).

read the red...

http://www.bign2football.com/option_route.htm

you were right to an extent...


it happens...but to my credit it is VERY RARE...

not only is it that rare but it is considered very risky and I am not convinced that Warner and Fitz have this kind of chemistry...


anyway...:cheers:

[RedBlackAttack]

alright RBA...

I have bumped this to admitt that I was wrong...(EXTREMLY RARE FOR ME)

I started this thread because of of our debate on a real NFL forum:

mixed opinions...

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317080

the names "Peyton" and "Harrison" came up alot...

there were some that claimed that is "nerf football"....no WR plans out his own route...

THEN THERE WAS THIS:



read the red...

http://www.bign2football.com/option_route.htm

you were right to an extent...


it happens...but to my credit it is VERY RARE...

not only is it that rare but it is considered very risky and I am not convinced that Warner and Fitz have this kind of chemistry...


anyway...:cheers:

I'm glad you finally see the light. :cheers:

That said, I just wanted to clarify something, though. The part that you are saying is 'very rare' is the 'get open' route, which you highlighted in red. That is not what I was referring to.

I was talking about option routes, which are discussed at the top of your article, and hot routes. Both of which have options for the receiver and they must be able to read a defensive scheme and choose the correct route.

It isn't a 'get open' route where a receiver just decides "over there looks good." Option routes and hot routes are installed to every gameplan for just about every receiver (definitely the stars). To clarify, these are options that a receiver has based on coverage schemes. He doesn't have the authority to run to any part of the field that he wants. The coaches draw up specific options based on blitzes and coverages (usually 3 or 4 options). The receiver must read the defense and pick the route which would best attack the defensive look that he is seeing.

The quarterback must also recognize these coverages and blitzes and both know and trust his receiver to read the defense correctly and choose the correct option route.

The part in red discusses possibly allowing a receiver to immediately go to the open spot, without necessarily having a gameplan or set plays to change his route. That would be VERY rare and it sounds like it is still in its initial phases, to me.

The option and hot routes, however, are anything but rare.

[-primetime-]

I'm glad you finally see the light. :cheers:

That said, I just wanted to clarify something, though. The part that you are saying is 'very rare' is the 'get open' route, which you highlighted in red. That is not what I was referring to.

I was talking about option routes, which are discussed at the top of your article, and hot routes. Both of which have options for the receiver and they must be able to read a defensive scheme and choose the correct route.

It isn't a 'get open' route where a receiver just decides "over there looks good." Option routes and hot routes are installed to every gameplan for just about every receiver (definitely the stars). To clarify, these are options that a receiver has based on coverage schemes. He doesn't have the authority to run to any part of the field that he wants. The coaches draw up specific options based on blitzes and coverages (usually 3 or 4 options). The receiver must read the defense and pick the route which would best attack the defensive look that he is seeing.

The quarterback must also recognize these coverages and blitzes and both know and trust his receiver to read the defense correctly and choose the correct option route.

The part in red discusses possibly allowing a receiver to immediately go to the open spot, without necessarily having a gameplan or set plays to change his route. That would be VERY rare and it sounds like it is still in its initial phases, to me.

The option and hot routes, however, are anything but rare.
ok...

i think we had a misunderstanding from the get go...

i understand option routes and blitz "hot routes"...

HOWEVER....those are predetermined before the play...that wasn't what I was talking about...

YOU...gave me the impression that what makes Fitz so great is his ability to get open after reading the defense at the line...

I have NEVER heard of a WR creating his own route...and apparently it does happen...but it is not something that is common...



you know what, Fitz really does seem like the perfect WR to just run out there and try to get open on his own...I will not rule it out...neither of us owns a copy of the Cards play book...What you are saying cold be very true...

i admitt to being wrong here...but at the same time, this is something that is far from regular, and the fact that I rejected it as a possibility it nothing that anyone should look down on...

I am betting that the majority of NFL teams do not have this option...

[bdreason]

I'de take Fitz first right now. The kid is starting to perform like he did in College... only at the next level.

[RedBlackAttack]

ok...

i think we had a misunderstanding from the get go...

i understand option routes and blitz "hot routes"...

HOWEVER....those are predetermined before the play...that wasn't what I was talking about...

YOU...gave me the impression that what makes Fitz so great is his ability to get open after reading the defense at the line...

I have NEVER heard of a WR creating his own route...and apparently it does happen...but it is not something that is common...

Well... The option route is assigned in the huddle by the sidelines, but it is still the job of the receiver to, at the line, read the defense and choose the right option and the quarterback has to do the same and trust that the receiver will make the right decision.

Hot routes are not necessarily predetermined in the huddle, either. If a specific play is called and the defense shows a strong side blitz by the strong linebacker and safety, the receiver in the slot or the tight end in whichever formation they are in become the hot receiver and must run a hot route.

I just want to make sure we are on the same page... An option route is assigned in the huddle, but a receiver must still pick an option at the line after reading the defense. A hot route is determined by the defensive blitzing scheme and the only way to read the blitz is pre-snap, at the line-of-scrimmage.

We good?

[-primetime-]

Well... The option route is assigned in the huddle by the sidelines, but it is still the job of the receiver to, at the line, read the defense and choose the right option and the quarterback has to do the same and trust that the receiver will make the right decision.

Hot routes are not necessarily predetermined in the huddle, either. If a specific play is called and the defense shows a strong side blitz by the strong linebacker and safety, the receiver in the slot or the tight end in whichever formation they are in become the hot receiver and must run a hot route.

I just want to make sure we are on the same page... An option route is assigned in the huddle, but a receiver must still pick an option at the line after reading the defense. A hot route is determined by the defensive blitzing scheme and the only way to read the blitz is pre-snap, at the line-of-scrimmage.

We good?
yeah...I understand what you were talking about...

Where I was coming from was the "option" or "hot route" was called at the line by the QB...OR predetermind before the play is called in the huddle...

I'll be honest, I am kind of in George Bush "Shock and Awe" that in the NFL there are still plays were the WR just runs out there blind and tries to get open...

that seems playground to me...if you know what I mean...

oh well...you are one of the few here that I like to debate with...I LEARNED SOMETHING!!!!

amazing to to me that you brought that to me...although I did have do look around and ask around...

This isn't boxing to me...where you own...

this is something I grew up on...football

anyway...thanks for not being a childish scrub...

when you post....I read...

maybe that doesn't seem like much but it should....:cheers:

[RedBlackAttack]

yeah...I understand what you were talking about...

Where I was coming from was the "option" or "hot route" was called at the line by the QB...OR predetermind before the play is called in the huddle...

I'll be honest, I am kind of in George Bush "Shock and Awe" that in the NFL there are still plays were the WR just runs out there blind and tries to get open...

that seems playground to me...if you know what I mean...

oh well...you are one of the few here that I like to debate with...I LEARNED SOMETHING!!!!

amazing to to me that you brought that to me...although I did have do look around and ask around...

This isn't boxing to me...where you own...

this is something I grew up on...football

anyway...thanks for not being a childish scrub...

when you post....I read...

maybe that doesn't seem like much but it should....:cheers:

:cheers: