Who Guards Michael Jordan Well?

[KingLeBronJames]

The only guy I can think of is Joe Dumars. Anybody know any other list of defenders during the 80's and 90's NBA who can guard Michael pretty well or shut him down?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Small guards who were real quick, and had heart could give him problems at times. But ultimately no one could guard him.

[west]

GP

[1987_Lakers]

Yea, Jordan has said that Joe Dumars played the best defense against him.

[Samurai Swoosh]

GP
No ... just, no

[Biddy77]

guys people tried to bill as "jordan stoppers" were...

craig ehlo. didn't do so well. this led to the cavs aquiring...

gerald wilkins. somewhere along the line, someone nicknamed him "the jordan stopper". the cavs thought he might help them get past the bulls in the playoffs. that didn't end well for them.

joe dumars. like ehlo and wilkins, a very good defender. did the best job out of the 3, and the pistons still had to apply "the jordan rules" when they played the bulls to try to contain him.


GP did well against him, but by the time they locked horns in the finals, Jordan had developed into a monster in the post, and GP was understandably screwed. Clyde tried like hell, and had success sometimes.

john starks and derek harper both took their turns tying to check him at times, and the combined efforts of the Knicks made for some very tough playoff series. that said, we all know who prevailed...

[plowking]

No ... just, no

Played him extremely well in the 96 finals. Jordan was having hissy fits.

[plowking]

guys people tried to bill as "jordan stoppers" were...

craig ehlo. didn't do so well. this led to the cavs aquiring...

gerald wilkins. somewhere along the line, someone nicknamed him "the jordan stopper". the cavs thought he might help them get past the bulls in the playoffs. that didn't end well for them.

joe dumars. like ehlo and wilkins, a very good defender. did the best job out of the 3, and the pistons still had to apply "the jordan rules" when they played the bulls to try to contain him.


GP did well against him, but by the time they locked horns in the finals, Jordan had developed into a monster in the post, and GP was understandably screwed. Clyde tried like hell, and had success sometimes.

john starks and derek harper both took their turns tying to check him at times, and the combined efforts of the Knicks made for some very tough playoff series. that said, we all know who prevailed...

Not really...

[Scott Pippen]

Pippen in practice I have heard. :applause:

But to be honest based on the rules at the time I say younger Dennis Rodman was not bad. Guys like Hersey Hawkins or Bobby Phills played him very physical. But overall the answer is Dumars or Rodman to me, though the true correct answer is the Pistons/Knicks defense. :applause:

[Godfather]

Bruce B with hand checking would have slowed down Michael.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Played him extremely well in the 96 finals. Jordan was having hissy fits.
Payed him well in that series? Sure. Hissy fits? Uhh no. Ultimately the Bulls won, when they shoulve swept in Seattle. But they won, and Jordan was MVP. I guess that really is giving someone hissy fits. Oh, and GP never really gave him "problems" at any other point in their career. Especiall prior to his first retirement, when he was at his peak.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Bruce B with hand checking would have slowed down Michael.
Bruce Bowen played in Jordan's era with hand checks. And in DIME magazine a year or two ago they asked him who the hardest player to guard was ... and he said Jordan. And he played against a well aged Jordan. No Kobe. Jordan.

[D-Rose]

LeBron's dominant defense would have staggered Jordan to the point of being shutdown. :rolleyes:

[Biddy77]

Pippen in practice I have heard. :applause:

But to be honest based on the rules at the time I say younger Dennis Rodman was not bad. Guys like Hersey Hawkins or Bobby Phills played him very physical. But overall the answer is Dumars or Rodman to me, though the true correct answer is the Pistons/Knicks defense. :applause:

i forget where i heard this, so i can't source it, but as the story goes...

jordan was asked once if anyone in the NBA could guard him one-on-one, and he said "yeap. he's right there." and pointed at pippen.

relating to that... they also supposedly asked "is there anything you can't do (on a basketball court/with a ball)?" and he said there was something. he said he couldn't jump off his right foot and dunk right handed, but scottie could.

wish i could confirm/refute those. interesting anecdotes.

[Indian guy]

The only players who had some success in containing MJ for a meaningful period were Dumars and Starks. Both were short(6'3), had very quick feet, good strength, intelligent, played in the severe hand-checking era and most importantly, played on great defensive teams.

[juju151111]

Played him extremely well in the 96 finals. Jordan was having hissy fits.
True, but who cares they won.Also MJ ****s all over him in 92-3 .

[AllenIverson3]

Sydney Moncrief

[Godfather]

Bruce Bowen played in Jordan's era with hand checks. And in DIME magazine a year or two ago they asked him who the hardest player to guard was ... and he said Jordan. And he played against a well aged Jordan. No Kobe. Jordan.

What are you trying to say?

I am the last one here who would say Kobe>Jordan (you on the other hand were all over Kobe's dick this Olympics)

There is such a thing as a defensive prime. And Bruce Bowen in his defensive prime could have slowed down Jordan (not shut down slowed down).

[Samurai Swoosh]

The only players who had some success in containing MJ for a meaningful period were Dumars and Starks. Both were short(6'3), had very quick feet, good strength, intelligent, played in the severe hand-checking era and most importantly, played on great defensive teams.
Exactly. Kevin Johnson had one solid game guarding MJ in the '93 Finals. But it didn't last really long.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

no one could guard Jordan. the Angels from above would simply pick him up and carry him to the basket.

...or he would just climb up on the pedestal and shoot over everyone.

[Scott Pippen]

i forget where i heard this, so i can't source it, but as the story goes...

jordan was asked once if anyone in the NBA could guard him one-on-one, and he said "yeap. he's right there." and pointed at pippen.

relating to that... they also supposedly asked "is there anything you can't do (on a basketball court/with a ball)?" and he said there was something. he said he couldn't jump off his right foot and dunk right handed, but scottie could.

wish i could confirm/refute those. interesting anecdotes.

Yes I believe I heard something similar. But this may be true because Pip was longer and could stretch out more in the air, or they were different types of jumpers/leapers.

[Biddy77]

Not really...

ok, "screwed" was too strong of a word.

in 3 of the 6 games, GP held MJ to 40% or less shooting, and for those 3 games, covered him as well as (or better than) anyone i've ever seen cover him.

in the other 3 games, MJ shot 48% once, and 50% twice.

so, yeah. GP deserves some recognition for the job he did.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I am the last one here who would say Kobe>Jordan (you on the other hand were all over Kobe's dick this Olympics)
Huh? I was pro-Team USA as a whole.

What the blue **** are you talking about. And I wasn't insinuating, anything. Kobe's the best scorer in modern basketball, and I was using him as comparison and Bruce said an aged Jordan he faced was harder to defend.

Don't be so touchy, you little puss.

:oldlol:

[Godfather]

Huh? I was pro-Team USA as a whole.

What the blue **** are you talking about. And I wasn't insinuating, anything. Kobe's the best scorer in modern basketball, and I was using him as comparison and Bruce said an aged Jordan he faced was harder to defend.

Don't be so touchy, you little puss.

:oldlol:

Too touchy? I merely stated fact (even as Kobe struggled shooting you hurled praises upon him left and right). You on the other hand used insults to pass a point that still doesn't refute mine.

[Scott Pippen]

Exactly. Kevin Johnson had one solid game guarding MJ in the '93 Finals. But it didn't last really long.
Yes but KJ actually had footspeed to stay with '93 Jordan, but I believe MJ that year had slowed down a bit since his 80s days or even since the 1992 season because of the long year, olympics, etc. But Kev. Johnson was very nice. At least he did better than Dumas, who according to the logic some people today believe, would be a lockdown defender just because of height and athleticism.:applause:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Too touchy? I merely stated fact (even as Kobe struggled shooting you hurled praises upon him left and right). You on the other hand used insults to pass a point that still doesn't refute mine.
What are you talking about? I said Kobe struggled shooting during the Olympics. As I proceeded to praise the whole team, mainly Wade and LeBron. You're thinking of someone else. Only time I gave Kobe props was the 4th in the Spain game.

[Scott Pippen]

Sydney Moncrief
Yes, also Moncrief played a very young Jordan well. Before the Bulls contending years.:applause:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Yes but KJ actually had footspeed to stay with '93 Jordan, but I believe MJ that year had slowed down a bit since his 80s days or even since the 1992 season because of the long year, olympics, etc. But Kev. Johnson was very nice. At least he did better than Dumas, who according to the logic some people today believe, would be a lockdown defender just because of height and athleticism.:applause:
Height and athleticism has little to do with defensive abilities. It helps if you are long and athletic. But defensive has always been more about tenacity, intelligence, and heart. Understanding angles, strengths and weakness of players, etc. I remember a dumb ass friend of mine trying to say today's era players are better defenders because they're bigger (they're not) and more athletic (they're not)

[Biddy77]

Yes I believe I heard something similar. But this may be true because Pip was longer and could stretch out more in the air, or they were different types of jumpers/leapers.

i definitely think it has to do with pip's length. he had some serious reach...

[Biddy77]

Height and athleticism has little to do with defensive abilities. It helps if you are long and athletic. But defensive has always been more about tenacity, intelligence, and heart. Understanding angles, strengths and weakness of players, etc. I remember a dumb ass friend of mine trying to say today's era players are better defenders because they're bigger (they're not) and more athletic (they're not)

that's true to an extent, but scottie pippen's brain in mark price's body doesn't work as well as scottie pippen's brain in scottie pippen's body.

reaching your defensive potential definitely starts and stops with mental aspects, but your potential itself is partly determined by your physical attributes.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Scottie Pippen was the defensive player he was because he was forced to gaurd Michael Jordan everyday for years and years in practice. And MJ was as ruthless in practice was he was in games, so Pippen saw the best player to ever play the game every morning after he had his breakfast and went to the gym. Must have been hell, but it turned him into the player he became.

[Scott Pippen]

Height and athleticism has little to do with defensive abilities. It helps if you are long and athletic. But defensive has always been more about tenacity, intelligence, and heart. Understanding angles, strengths and weakness of players, etc. I remember a dumb ass friend of mine trying to say today's era players are better defenders because they're bigger (they're not) and more athletic (they're not)
Yes. :applause:

Of course height and athleticism helps, but defense is mainly intelligence/effort.

[Scott Pippen]

i definitely think it has to do with pip's length. he had some serious reach...
Of course:applause:

This kind of dunk cannot be easily forgotten.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETzpRdC6WS8

[andgar923]

Pip I'm sure did a good job vs MJ. Pip had too, he played against him everyday in practice.

The toughest defender I've ever faced was my cousin. He was slow as hell and couldn't guard anybody else, but since we played each other all the time, he learned how to play me well.

[Biddy77]

Scottie Pippen was the defensive player he was because he was forced to gaurd Michael Jordan everyday for years and years in practice. And MJ was as ruthless in practice was he was in games, so Pippen saw the best player to ever play the game every morning after he had his breakfast and went to the gym. Must have been hell, but it turned him into the player he became.

i agree completely with this statement. in fact, i've said almost the exact same thing in other threads.

still... if you gave scottie pippen's brain to mark price, he still wouldn't be the same caliber of defensive player. pippen's tenacity, instincts, ability to read offensive players, etc--were made even more effective by his quickness, leaping ability, and especially his length.

[LA_Showtime]

Why is there a thread about MJ? Didn't he retire? I hope he's not planning on making another comeback.

[Biddy77]

Of course:applause:

This kind of dunk cannot be easily forgotten.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETzpRdC6WS8

man... that dunk was epic. that's the kind of dunk you could make a full length feature film about.

that highlight is also notable because i believe that is officially the point in time where hubie brown completely lost his mind. at one point in that vid, he actually blurts out "THAT IS ELEVATION ELEVATION!"

lol

good times

[momo]

Jordo himself said the rock and reggie defended him well.

[markymark]

GP, Starks, Miller

[stephanieg]

In the playoffs Jordan had his worst games against the Knicks (he had some atrocious games where the media was questioning him), Sonics, Bucks (rookie), and it's probably no accident that he had a lot more clustered bad games in '97 and '98 because he was old and had something wrong with his hand in '98 I believe (a cracked knuckle I think? I'm sure Loki will chime in any moment). He did have some problems against the Pacers in '98 for example but I find it hard to believe that has anything to do with Reggie's defense in particular.

In his third year against Boston (not the 63 pt game series, this was in '87) the Bulls got swept and MJ put up 35-7-6 but on 41.7% shooting. It's kinda funny since if any player did that today it would be considered like a heroic career defining struggle or something but for him that was pretty subpar. I'm assuming DJ was living inside of Jordan's jersey.

Kevin Johnson played him pretty well in game 3 of the 93 finals. He still got 44 points...but on 43 shots. And basically disappeared down the stretch in the fourth quarter and the 3 OTs, KJ pretty much forced him to take perimeter jumpers that weren't going down. Whether it was more of KJ playing well that one game, MJ being tired, I dunno. It uh, obviously didn't carry over to the rest of the series, but it's something.

[KB42PAH]

Kobe has held Jordan to 24.5 ppg on 43.6% FG, 30.0% 3PT, 75.0% FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=bryanko01

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe has held Jordan to 24.5 ppg on 43.6% FG, 30.0% 3PT, 75.0% FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=bryanko01

LMAO @ this clown. :oldlol:

In his Wizards days, Kobe rarely guarded Jordan and vice versa. In his Bulls days, Jordan did to Kobe what he does to everyone else. Try again.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe has held Jordan to 24.5 ppg on 43.6% FG, 30.0% 3PT, 75.0% FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=bryanko01

I also love how you're highlighting the FG% (despite the fact that Kobe rarely guarded Jordan in their teams' meetings) -- Kobe has shot that FG% for entire seasons. :oldlol:

[KB42PAH]

LMAO @ this clown. :oldlol:

In his Wizards days, Kobe rarely guarded Jordan and vice versa. In his Bulls days, Jordan did to Kobe what he does to everyone else. Try again.

There are games from Bulls/Lakers there too, check the stats Loki. I know how you love stats. :cheers:

[OldSchoolBBall]

There are games from Bulls/Lakers there too, check the stats Loki. I know how you love stats. :cheers:

Who's Loki? Anyway, it was usually Eddie Jones on Jordan, not Kobe. When Kobe was on Jordan, Jordan did whatever he wanted as usual.

[KB42PAH]

Who's Loki?

Fail. :banana:

[andgar923]

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=g5ugS9CxUyE

[DavisWarriorsFan]

Who's Loki? Anyway, it was usually Eddie Jones on Jordan, not Kobe. When Kobe was on Jordan, Jordan did whatever he wanted as usual.
Actually, from what I remember in 1997-98 season. Kobe guarded Michael pretty good. Next game at the Great Western Forum Kobe did ok guarding him. 1998 All-Star game was a different story.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Actually, from what I remember in 1997-98 season. Kobe guarded Michael pretty good. Next game at the Great Western Forum Kobe did ok guarding him. 1998 All-Star game was a different story.

You remember wrong. Most of their meetings are on youtube if you want to refresh your memory. I'm not saying Jordan roasted him (Jordan was all about pacing himself and playing under control by that point in his career), but Kobe's defense didn't prevent him from doing whatever he wanted to do.

[Psileas]

Among teams, going by seasons:

1985-87: Celtics (of course, there were were his '86 playoff eruptions, but, apart from this, they did a pretty good job)
1988-91: Pistons
1992-93: Knicks
1995-03: Raptors (it seems weird, but after his first comeback, the Raptors were the team that limited him the most, even when it comes to efficiency)

[Riker]

LeBron's dominant defense would have staggered Jordan to the point of being shutdown. :rolleyes:

Finally some words of wisdom here! :bowdown:

[Cangri]

Kobe has held Jordan to 24.5 ppg on 43.6% FG, 30.0% 3PT, 75.0% FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=bryanko01
Sure how about we let Kobe get old and see who can make him struggle...
Dumbass.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Sure how about we let Kobe get old and see who can make him struggle...
Dumbass.

The best part is how he highlights the FG%, oblivious to the fact that Kobe shot basically the same or worse than that for two full seasons (and another two seasons his first two years, but we'll exclude those). :oldlol:

[gotbacon23]

There are games from Bulls/Lakers there too, check the stats Loki. I know how you love stats. :cheers:

out of the 4 times kobe and mj played against each other with MJ on the bulls (according to the stats that you provided), only in 2 of the games did kobe play more than 20 minutes, the other two games he played 10 and 13 minutes, and he never played in more than 29 minutes in a game. so yeah, jordan went 10-32 and 10-24 in two games against the lakers in 1996-97... but kobe only played 10 and 13 minutes in those two games, so he had little to do with that...

in the two games the next season (Where kobe played 29 and 26 minutes), jordan shot a combined 23 for 48 (48%) while averaging 33.5 ppg 5.0 rpg 3.0 apg in 36.0 mpg. I know we can't get a definitive answer on this because kobe only played significant minutes against chicago-version michael jordan two times in his entire career (10 and 13 minutes aren't significant),but in those 2 games MJ had pretty good games.

[RoseCity07]

Nate McMillan. If there was ever a guy who could guard Jordan, it was him.

[delmar]

Michael Cooper (Los Angeles Lakers)

[Cangri]

out of the 4 times kobe and mj played against each other with MJ on the bulls (according to the stats that you provided), only in 2 of the games did kobe play more than 20 minutes, the other two games he played 10 and 13 minutes, and he never played in more than 29 minutes in a game. so yeah, jordan went 10-32 and 10-24 in two games against the lakers in 1996-97... but kobe only played 10 and 13 minutes in those two games, so he had little to do with that...

in the two games the next season (Where kobe played 29 and 26 minutes), jordan shot a combined 23 for 48 (48%) while averaging 33.5 ppg 5.0 rpg 3.0 apg in 36.0 mpg. I know we can't get a definitive answer on this because kobe only played significant minutes against chicago-version michael jordan two times in his entire career (10 and 13 minutes aren't significant),but in those 2 games MJ had pretty good games.
Don't even try talking some sense into him, he'll try to find ANYTHING to try to prove that Kobe is better than Jordan... except his final's stats.
But then again he will just say that Jordan played in a weak era.

[JJ81]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqMuo12ex4

also Dennis Rodman

[Da_Realist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqMuo12ex4

also Dennis Rodman

You use a clip of him when he is 10 years past his prime to hype Kobe. :rolleyes:

[lilojmayo]

I dont think there was one guy that could guard jordan it was a teammate effort

like last year celtics did with lebron

pierce just locked down kobe

[20 Dimes A Game]

Pippen in practice I have heard. :applause:

But to be honest based on the rules at the time I say younger Dennis Rodman was not bad. Guys like Hersey Hawkins or Bobby Phills played him very physical. But overall the answer is Dumars or Rodman to me, though the true correct answer is the Pistons/Knicks defense. :applause:

I agree, no one man can shut down Jordan.

[lilojmayo]

where are you getting this dumars could guard jordan

Jordan dropped 61pts 59pts(21-27fga:bowdown: ) lol it takes kobe 32 fga to put up 30 53pts on dumars

Jordan vs dumars
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=dumarjo01

Jordan vs Starks
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=starkjo01

a few games the knicks and pistons defense contained jordan, but they couldnt single handily do it though

[Biddy77]

where are you getting this dumars could guard jordan

Jordan dropped 61pts 59pts 53pts on dumars

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=dumarjo01

as has been mentioned, even someone who was as good at defense as dumars still had to be backed by the rest of the Bad Boy Pistons and use "The Jordan Rules" (wasn't just a book title), and even then, the best you could hope for was containment.

dumars defended jordan as well as anyone. for his career, MJ's shooting % against dumars was slightly lower than it was in general, and dumars was able to average just 2.5 fouls/game against MJ... of course, evidence of the Jordan Rules strategy is evident when you look at how many free throws jordan shot per game lifetime against the pistons...

i watched a LOT of those head to heads, and i have to give joe credit for playing very solid defense. unfortuneately, it didn't matter much. Jordan was Jordan.

[hateraid]

Pippen in practice I have heard. :applause:

But to be honest based on the rules at the time I say younger Dennis Rodman was not bad. Guys like Hersey Hawkins or Bobby Phills played him very physical. But overall the answer is Dumars or Rodman to me, though the true correct answer is the Pistons/Knicks defense. :applause:

The hidden answer in this whole thread.

[ryantheporchkid]

Pretty much every swingman in the league right now.

[lilojmayo]

The hidden answer in this whole thread.


Yep its that dude Hawkins besides givin up 53pts to MJ he contained MJ seriously, not to mention he lead MJ to his worst finals performance in 96' even though the bulls didnt really need mJ to do his damn thing since that was the best team ever assembled

Jordan vs Hawkins
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=hawkihe01

[Biddy77]

Yep its that dude Hawkins besides givin up 53pts to MJ he contained MJ seriously, not to mention he lead MJ to his worst finals performance in 96' even though the bulls didnt really need mJ to do his damn thing since that was the best team ever assembled

Jordan vs Hawkins
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=hawkihe01

jordan shot 52.2% from the floor against hawkins lifetime, and still averaged 31ppg against him. granted, hawkins & friends at least kept it from getting worse by limiting his trips to the line (6.7 fta/game vs hawkins).

that's not to diss hawkins, it's just to point out that guys who played great defense against him were still at his mercy.

[hateraid]

jordan shot 52.2% from the floor against hawkins lifetime, and still averaged 31ppg against him. granted, hawkins & friends at least kept it from getting worse by limiting his trips to the line (6.7 fta/game vs hawkins).

that's not to diss hawkins, it's just to point out that guys who played great defense against him were still at his mercy.


I'll admit, nobody can stop Jordan from scoring. But to play him one on one efficiently I think hawkins had the best skillset. Hawkins was quick laterally, was strong, could defend the post up due to him being a post player most of his pre NBA career, and had a great defensive IQ. I think Jordan played mainly well against the Sixers in general.

The main aspects of every player mentioned is that they had great interior defense who knew how to help. That was the one thing that was lacking in the Hawkins-Sixer era. Dumars had Rodman, Harper had Ewing/Oak. Hawkins had Barkley, not a great help defender, Rick Mahorn, mainly a post defender, not a help defender or shot blocker, and Mike Gminski.

[DuMa]

Old age.

[Vancouver-Grizz]

cannot believe you guys forgot Gerald Wilkins. Wilkins had some crazy D on Jordan. Not saying Jordan didn't get his but Wilkins certainly made him work for it.

[Biddy77]

cannot believe you guys forgot Gerald Wilkins. Wilkins had some crazy D on Jordan. Not saying Jordan didn't get his but Wilkins certainly made him work for it.

mentioned him and the fact that he was the first guy actually called "jordan stopper" in post #6 of this thread.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The hidden answer in this whole thread.

Why do you always say this when Jordan averaged 43.0 pts/6.5 reb/7.3 ast/3 stl/1 blk/53% FG vs. Hawkins and the Sixers in the 1990 playoffs and then 34 pts/8 reb/8 ast/2.5+ stl/1 blk/53% FG against them in the 1991 playoffs. This is in addition to numerous games of 40-50+ in the regular season.


as has been mentioned, even someone who was as good at defense as dumars still had to be backed by the rest of the Bad Boy Pistons and use "The Jordan Rules" (wasn't just a book title), and even then, the best you could hope for was containment.

dumars defended jordan as well as anyone. for his career, MJ's shooting % against dumars was slightly lower than it was in general, and dumars was able to average just 2.5 fouls/game against MJ... of course, evidence of the Jordan Rules strategy is evident when you look at how many free throws jordan shot per game lifetime against the pistons...

i watched a LOT of those head to heads, and i have to give joe credit for playing very solid defense. unfortuneately, it didn't matter much. Jordan was Jordan.

It was the Pistons' team, not Dumars alone, that held Jordan relatively in check (as you noted), and even that was only after the implementation of the Jordan Rules for the '88 playoffs and beyond.

In the two full seasons prior to the Jordan rules (1987 and '88), Jordan averaged 39.8 ppg on 48% shooting over the course of 12 meetings with Dumars and Rodman (two of the best defenders in the league) taking turns on him. This included games of 47 points, 61 points, 49 pts/8 ast, 38 pts/8 reb/12 ast, 59 points, and 36/10/10. Jordan tortured them those two seasons, and Daly had seen enough, which is why he devised the Jordan Rules.

[OldSchoolBBall]

cannot believe you guys forgot Gerald Wilkins. Wilkins had some crazy D on Jordan. Not saying Jordan didn't get his but Wilkins certainly made him work for it.

Jordan averaged 38 pts/10 reb/9 ast/52% FG against Wilkins and the Knicks in the 1989 playoffs (6 games) in addition to numerous games of 40-50+ during the regular season in the late 80's/early 90's. Then of course we saw what Jordan did to Wilkins during the 1993 ECF vs. Cleveland, when he took the challenge personally because Wilkins had proclaimed himself "The Jordan Stopper" in the press (why he did that based on the evidence above I have no idea :oldlol: ).

[Jacks3]

Guards who were actually above 6'3?:lol

[Da_Realist]

It was the Pistons' team, not Dumars alone, that held Jordan relatively in check (as you noted), and even that was only after the implementation of the Jordan Rules for the '88 playoffs and beyond.

In the two full seasons prior to the Jordan rules (1987 and '88), Jordan averaged 39.8 ppg on 48% shooting over the course of 12 meetings with Dumars and Rodman (two of the best defenders in the league) taking turns on him. This included games of 47 points, 61 points, 49 pts/8 ast, 38 pts/8 reb/12 ast, 59 points, and 36/10/10. Jordan tortured them those two seasons, and Daly had seen enough, which is why he devised the Jordan Rules.

I'd also like to note that MJ didn't do as badly against the Pistons as people think. Here are the playoff numbers.

Michael Jordan's stats against the Detroit Pistons

note: Some of these shooting percentages are not official. In those games, I calculated his fg% myself so they may be off a little. If anyone has the official stats and see a mistake let me know. Most of the questionable games are in the 1990 series.

1988
Game 1 -- 29 pts, 6 assists, 11 rebounds, 10 for 22
Game 2 -- 36 pts, 1 assist, 11 rebounds, 14 for 21
Game 3 -- 24 pts, 3 assists, 7 rebounds, 8 for 20
Game 4 -- 23 pts, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 11 for 22
Game 5 -- 25 pts, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 10 for 22
Series Avg -- 27.4 points, 4.6 assists, 8.8 rebounds, 49.5 fg%

1989
Game 1 -- 32 points, 4 assists, 11 rebounds, 10 for 29
Game 2 -- 27 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds, 8 for 16
Game 3 -- 46 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 16 for 24
Game 4 -- 23 points, 4 assists, 2 rebounds, 5 for 15
Game 5 -- 18 points, 9 assists, 5 rebounds, 4 for 8
Game 6 -- 32 points, 13 assists, 4 rebounds, 13 for 25
Series Avg -- 29.6 points, 6.5 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 47.9 fg%

1990
Game 1 -- 34 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 12 for 25
Game 2 -- 20 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, 5 for 16
Game 3 -- 47 points, 4 assists, 10 rebounds, 17 for 32
Game 4 -- 42 points, 9 assists, 4 rebounds, 13 for 25
Game 5 -- 22 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 7 for 19
Game 6 -- 29 points, 2 assists, 10 rebounds, 10 for 19
Game 7 -- 31 points, 9 assists, 8 rebounds, 13 for 27
Series Avg -- 32.1 points, 6.3 assists, 7.1 rebounds, 47.2 fg%

1991
Game 1 -- 22 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds, 6 for 15
Game 2 -- 35 points, 7 assists, 3 rebounds, 10 for 20
Game 3 -- 33 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, 11 for 19
Game 4 -- 29 points, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 11 for 17
Series Avg -- 29.8 points, 7 assists, 5.3 rebounds, 53.5 fg%

Overall Avg --29.7 points, 6.1 assists, 6.7 rebounds, 48.9 fg%

[OldSchoolBBall]

I'd also like to note that MJ didn't do as badly against the Pistons as people think. Here are the playoff numbers.

Michael Jordan's stats against the Detroit Pistons

note: Some of these shooting percentages are not official. In those games, I calculated his fg% myself so they may be off a little. If anyone has the official stats and see a mistake let me know. Most of the questionable games are in the 1990 series.

1988
Game 1 -- 29 pts, 6 assists, 11 rebounds, 10 for 22
Game 2 -- 36 pts, 1 assist, 11 rebounds, 14 for 21
Game 3 -- 24 pts, 3 assists, 7 rebounds, 8 for 20
Game 4 -- 23 pts, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 11 for 22
Game 5 -- 25 pts, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 10 for 22
Series Avg -- 27.4 points, 4.6 assists, 8.8 rebounds, 49.5 fg%

1989
Game 1 -- 32 points, 4 assists, 11 rebounds, 10 for 29
Game 2 -- 27 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds, 8 for 16
Game 3 -- 46 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 16 for 24
Game 4 -- 23 points, 4 assists, 2 rebounds, 5 for 15
Game 5 -- 18 points, 9 assists, 5 rebounds, 4 for 8
Game 6 -- 32 points, 13 assists, 4 rebounds, 13 for 25
Series Avg -- 29.6 points, 6.5 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 47.9 fg%

1990
Game 1 -- 34 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 12 for 25
Game 2 -- 20 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, 5 for 16
Game 3 -- 47 points, 4 assists, 10 rebounds, 17 for 32
Game 4 -- 42 points, 9 assists, 4 rebounds, 13 for 25
Game 5 -- 22 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 7 for 19
Game 6 -- 29 points, 2 assists, 10 rebounds, 10 for 19
Game 7 -- 31 points, 9 assists, 8 rebounds, 13 for 27
Series Avg -- 32.1 points, 6.3 assists, 7.1 rebounds, 47.2 fg%

1991
Game 1 -- 22 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds, 6 for 15
Game 2 -- 35 points, 7 assists, 3 rebounds, 10 for 20
Game 3 -- 33 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, 11 for 19
Game 4 -- 29 points, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 11 for 17
Series Avg -- 29.8 points, 7 assists, 5.3 rebounds, 53.5 fg%

Overall Avg --29.7 points, 6.1 assists, 6.7 rebounds, 48.9 fg%

And this was against a bruising defense with constant traps/doubles and two of the best all-time defenders taking turns on him. 30/7/6/49% FG. Amazing.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Guards who were actually above 6'3?:lol

Yeah, nice try clown. I guess that's why Jordan routinely torched guys like Reggie Miller, Drexler, Wilkins, Nick Anderson, Reggie Theus, Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, Dan Majerle, Mitch Richmond, Sprewell, Gerald Wilkins, Ron Harper, Craig Ehlo, Steve Smith, Ray Allen, David Wingate etc.

Fact is, Jordan always had (relatively) more trouble with smaller defenders because they were the only ones who could reasonably stay in front of him. Combine this with the fact that they were allowed to play him tighter due to the handcheck rules (so they could contest his jumper better than if they had to give ground) and were allowed to play more physically, and you can see why guys in the 6'3"-6'4" range tended to fare better than most, though he torched everyone.

No player 6'6"+ had the foot speed to stay in front of '87-'93 Jordan.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, nice try clown. I guess that's why Jordan routinely torched guys like Reggie Miller, Drexler, Wilkins, Nick Anderson, Reggie Theus, Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, Dan Majerle, Mitch Richmond, Sprewell, Gerald Wilkins, Ron Harper, Craig Ehlo, Steve Smith, Ray Allen etc.
It was a joke you disgusting dumass.
Friggin sensitive little girl.

[Jacks3]

Maybe zone defenses?:lol

[jamal99]

i forget where i heard this, so i can't source it, but as the story goes...

jordan was asked once if anyone in the NBA could guard him one-on-one, and he said "yeap. he's right there." and pointed at pippen.

relating to that... they also supposedly asked "is there anything you can't do (on a basketball court/with a ball)?" and he said there was something. he said he couldn't jump off his right foot and dunk right handed, but scottie could.

wish i could confirm/refute those. interesting anecdotes.

It's really hard to believe that, cuz i can do it and Im not NEAR as a dunker to Jordan...

[Reef]

Doug Christie did an amazing job on MJ when the Raptors played the Bulls. Raps even won one of the games during the 72-10 season.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I just wanted to recap some of the performances and averages prime Jordan put up against some of the people mentioned in this thread as defenders who guarded him well:


Dumars: 39.8 ppg on 48% shooting over the course of 12 meetings in 1987 and '88 with Dumars and Rodman (two of the best defenders in the league) taking turns on him. This included games of 47 points, 61 points, 49 pts/8 ast, 38 pts/8 reb/12 ast, 59 points, and 36/10/10.

Hawkins: Jordan averaged 43.0 pts/6.5 reb/7.3 ast/3 stl/1 blk/53% FG vs. Hawkins and the Sixers in the 1990 playoffs and then 34 pts/8 reb/8 ast/2.5+ stl/1 blk/53% FG against them in the 1991 playoffs. This is in addition to numerous games of 40-50+ in the regular season.

Wilkins: Jordan averaged 38 pts/10 reb/9 ast/52% FG against Wilkins and the Knicks in the 1989 playoffs (6 games) in addition to numerous games of 40-50+ during the regular season in the late 80's/early 90's. Then of course we saw what Jordan did to Wilkins during the 1993 ECF vs. Cleveland


Just insane. :oldlol:

[hateraid]

Why do you always say this when Jordan averaged 43.0 pts/6.5 reb/7.3 ast/3 stl/1 blk/53% FG vs. Hawkins and the Sixers in the 1990 playoffs and then 34 pts/8 reb/8 ast/2.5+ stl/1 blk/53% FG against them in the 1991 playoffs. This is in addition to numerous games of 40-50+ in the regular season.





Let me quote my post again and add on some intricate points



I'll admit, nobody can stop Jordan from scoring. But to play him one on one efficiently I think hawkins had the best skillset. Hawkins was quick laterally, was strong, could defend the post up due to him being a post player most of his pre NBA career, and had a great defensive IQ. I think Jordan played mainly well against the Sixers in general.

The main aspects of every player mentioned is that they had great interior defense who knew how to help. That was the one thing that was lacking in the Hawkins-Sixer era. Dumars had Rodman, Harper had Ewing/Oak. Hawkins had Barkley, not a great help defender, Rick Mahorn, mainly a post defender, not a help defender or shot blocker, and Mike Gminski.


The Sixers success came from having a great offensive set back in those days. Apparent from the fact that they finished 3 offensively overall. But Lynam wasn't a defensive minded coach and the Sixers as a team was ranked in the bottom half and had a dismal FG against average. Along with the points I've bolded, you think Hersey gaurded Jordan the whole time on the floor? Along with being able to transition easy against the Sixers and not having a good help defense system with no shot blockers whatsoever, that and having to split the duties with Ron Anderson (weak defender) and Johnny Dawkins (too short), a prolific scorer like Jordan could have easily put up those numbers.

My comment was more directed to how well Hawkins played Jordan and how he had that type of skillset to contain him. It's hard to defend a scorer when you don't have tough interior D and no shot blockers. Again, Hawkins knew how to defend the post playing most of his HS career at center. He had quick lateral movement and very quick hands, hence always being one of the league leaders in steals, and it wasn't from coevering lanes. If Hawkins had a half decent defense surrounding him those numbers would have been altered.

[RonySeikalyFTW]

The correct answer is Gary Payton. Just look at the '96 Finals. Jordan: 41% FGs, 27 PPG on 21 FG attempts/game. It was Jordan's worst Finals performance.

[hateraid]

The correct answer is Gary Payton. Just look at the '96 Finals. Jordan: 41% FGs, 27 PPG on 21 FG attempts/game. It was Jordan's worst Finals performance.


And Hersey had most of that assignment.
See what I'm saying Loki? Given a better defensive set and Hersey had way better against numbers.

My point proven.

[JJ81]

You could play great defense on MJ and he could still go for 30. So do you mean who's best at limiting his points?

[GUN^POWDER]

there is one player called starkes somthing like that .. actully i cant remeber very well ..

he played in newyork

[RonySeikalyFTW]

And Hersey had most of that assignment.
See what I'm saying Loki? Given a better defensive set and Hersey had way better against numbers.

My point proven.

Wow, that's true. I forgot Hersey was on the '96 Sonics. Although Payton did guard him for much of the time.

[hateraid]

Wow, that's true. I forgot Hersey was on the '96 Sonics. Although Payton did guard him for much of the time.


That was always overlooked. As a Hersey fan I've followed his career. During that series Hersey had the assignment to check Jordan while Payton had to chase Kerr or gaurd Harper and rotate on switches.

[RAPSCANWIN]

Michael Cooper (Los Angeles Lakers)


I second that.

[Riker]

Who Guards Michael Jordan Well?

I didn't want this info to leak, but what the heck...I have to.



The answer is.......




Me.


I would guard him impeccably. My defense is ferocious, my game is impregnable, my defense is impetuous. MJ can't do sh!t to me.

[juju151111]

Guards who were actually above 6'3?:lol
hey dumbass, Why didn't gerald wilkins,rodman,ray allen,kobe,James posey,shawn marion,jefferson, james worthy,clyde drexler,ron artest,etc...., Couldn't stop him?? Please u ****ing kobe nutgagger.

[andgar923]

I always remembered Vashon Leonard (is that how its spelled?) gave MJ a good challenge.

[Glove_20]

That was always overlooked. As a Hersey fan I've followed his career. During that series Hersey had the assignment to check Jordan while Payton had to chase Kerr or gaurd Harper and rotate on switches.
Actually Hersey guarded Jordan mostly Games 1-3, then Payton picked him up on games 4-6. And Jordan did well in Games 1-3 against Hersey, and had his toughest times in the game Payton was the primary defender. Hersey could not stop Jordan. I mean he was solid, but most of the success on Jordan's struggles in 96 go to Payton.

[Glove_20]

I'd also like to note that MJ didn't do as badly against the Pistons as people think. Here are the playoff numbers.

Michael Jordan's stats against the Detroit Pistons

note: Some of these shooting percentages are not official. In those games, I calculated his fg% myself so they may be off a little. If anyone has the official stats and see a mistake let me know. Most of the questionable games are in the 1990 series.

1988
Game 1 -- 29 pts, 6 assists, 11 rebounds, 10 for 22
Game 2 -- 36 pts, 1 assist, 11 rebounds, 14 for 21
Game 3 -- 24 pts, 3 assists, 7 rebounds, 8 for 20
Game 4 -- 23 pts, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 11 for 22
Game 5 -- 25 pts, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 10 for 22
Series Avg -- 27.4 points, 4.6 assists, 8.8 rebounds, 49.5 fg%

1989
Game 1 -- 32 points, 4 assists, 11 rebounds, 10 for 29
Game 2 -- 27 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds, 8 for 16
Game 3 -- 46 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 16 for 24
Game 4 -- 23 points, 4 assists, 2 rebounds, 5 for 15
Game 5 -- 18 points, 9 assists, 5 rebounds, 4 for 8
Game 6 -- 32 points, 13 assists, 4 rebounds, 13 for 25
Series Avg -- 29.6 points, 6.5 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 47.9 fg%

1990
Game 1 -- 34 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 12 for 25
Game 2 -- 20 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, 5 for 16
Game 3 -- 47 points, 4 assists, 10 rebounds, 17 for 32
Game 4 -- 42 points, 9 assists, 4 rebounds, 13 for 25
Game 5 -- 22 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 7 for 19
Game 6 -- 29 points, 2 assists, 10 rebounds, 10 for 19
Game 7 -- 31 points, 9 assists, 8 rebounds, 13 for 27
Series Avg -- 32.1 points, 6.3 assists, 7.1 rebounds, 47.2 fg%

1991
Game 1 -- 22 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds, 6 for 15
Game 2 -- 35 points, 7 assists, 3 rebounds, 10 for 20
Game 3 -- 33 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, 11 for 19
Game 4 -- 29 points, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 11 for 17
Series Avg -- 29.8 points, 7 assists, 5.3 rebounds, 53.5 fg%

Overall Avg --29.7 points, 6.1 assists, 6.7 rebounds, 48.9 fg%

Just curious where you got those stats

[Glove_20]

And Hersey had most of that assignment.
See what I'm saying Loki? Given a better defensive set and Hersey had way better against numbers.

My point proven.
:no:
Hersey did not have most of that assignment. When he did have the assignment Jordan was effective, when Payton guarded Jordan, that's when he was most ineffective.

[OldSchoolBBall]

And Hersey had most of that assignment.
See what I'm saying Loki? Given a better defensive set and Hersey had way better against numbers.

My point proven.

Jordan's shooting in the '96 Finals had little to do with the defense played on him. He was missing wide open layups, offensive putbacks, and open baseline 16-footers the entire series, in the first quarter as well as the 4th (so it wasn't fatigue). I have no explanation for it, but I know what I saw. Jordan just doesn't miss those shots.

He would have shot 44-46% in that series normally.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Just curious where you got those stats

He has every game from those series up on his youtube channel, so he probably went through and counted the shots himself, which anyone else is free to take the time to do.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No team collectively could guard MJ, let alone one player. Any answers in this thread are erraneous. The only two or three players that I saw remotely frusterate Jordan for brief periods of time, before as only Mike could ... when he got more motivated and pissed, he played even better ... the only players that could at least some what annoy Jordan were Dumars and Starks.

[Da_Realist]

Just curious where you got those stats

I have all the games so I watched them to see how he did. I was always curious because when they played, I was 11-14 years old. The media hammered Jordan for not playing so well against the Pistons. And it looked like Jordan struggled at the time.

But looking back on it as an adult without allowing the media to bias me, I realized he only struggled when expected to put up 50 points on 50% shooting. So i decided to find out how he matched up with them statistically to make sure.

So I watched all the games. Most of the games gave a progress report on how many shots he made and missed. A few games even gave out statistics for the previous game(s). There were a handful that did neither. For those, I counted the shots myself.

A few things I noticed.

a) He didn't shoot as poorly as I expected (he never shot worse than 47% in any of the series)

b) He was efficient. When his shot was off, he only shot 15 to 16 times. When he was feeling it, he shot as many as 32.

c) He distributed the ball better than expected (he averaged over 6.5 assists in 3 of the 4 years)

d) His production was pretty consistent overall.

I find that sometimes it's good to go back and watch all these old games. You'll be surprised at how much your opinion may change. I'm more impressed by Michael Jordan now that I'm watching his career over again than I was during the time. I have more experienced eyes and I see more. I certainly see more than the media reported.