I would like to call your attention to something you already knew about Hakeem.

[Kblaze8855]

He was a monster. And while you knew that...you dont take the time to praise it as you should.

I wont bother with talking about his skills which we should all be well aware of. With all the recent talk of stats and which stats are more impressive and the nationwide polls and so on......I am going to give you a selection of Hakeems best games....not from his career. And not even from one season. But one month. March of 1990....

First let me say that the last day of the previous month?

37/25 and 5 blocks

And when march started....

March the first. 41/14/7 blocks and 4 assists vs the Suns. Next game he put up 29 points...18 rebounds....11 blocks...10 assists...and 5 steals. Next game was 37 and 14 with 4 blocks and 3 steals vs David robinson. Next game? Lakers got 27/14/8/4/3.

After that he "cooled off" a little bit with a stretch of...

30/8/5/3/1 14 of 19 shooting
25/16 8 blocks and 3 steals.
25 points 19 rebounds 6 assists 4 blocks and 3 steals
17/22/8 blocks and 4 steals.
19/12 6 blocks. His worst game of the month maybe.

That continues on for a while. 20/20 game in there. 27/18 game. You know.

And right after the 28/18 game came a game that many are aware of. His quadruple double. I already posted his quad double you say? Well....it seems I only posted one of them from that month. you see Hakeem was in retrospect either given a 10th assist in the game vs the warriors on march 3rd or denied the 10th he was given to begin with. The NBA doesnt consider it an "official" quadruple double since it took a review and is questionable. But they in fact list it in his game logs. go check. Any site featuring game logs from 1990 includes Hakeem getting 2 quadruple doubles in March.

But the thing is I cant find proof of if he was given 10 and the 10th was taken on later revierw or given 9 and the 10th was added on review. Ive read stories suggesting both. Not having seen the official record on paper for the night....I just call it a quadruple double because the records show it as one. But its not often acknowledged. But lets say he didnt...

He had 29/18/11/9/5 one game that month and the usually credited quad double with 18/16/11/10 latrer.

Anyway after a pedestrian 24/16/5/5/2 to end the month with an average of 26/15 and 6 blocks he goes into April where the highlights include games with 34/19 and 52/18 vs Mutombo. All part of a season where he averaged 24/14 with 5 blocks and 2 steals a game.

Which I guess would be more impressive if he didnt put up 25/14 with 3 steals and 3 blocks a game the season before that. Which was the season after he got knocked out of the playoffs despite a 49/25/7 block elimination game. Which is all part of an 11 year run where he put up a rounded off 2 steals and 2 blocks a game over that decade plus....while somehow still being a better defender than those numbers suggest...and being a better offensive player than the numbers suggest....and a waaaaaaaaaaay better passer than his assists suggest though he did get up to about 4 a game which for a center is rare.

And yes I know drob also had some wicked stat lines in that same basic time period....but Drob lost all rights to being praised in the presence of Hakeem in 1995 when he was"Just...bamboozled". They never should have handed out that MVP in front of Hakeem....

Point?

Dont really have one. But I dont think Hakeem praise needs a point. For all the Lebron/Kobe talk about great statlines? give me like 3 of his from just March and April alone over anything they have done this year. Im gonna eventually give him a more complete video but for now this ond one will do...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDBYWCwAN2o

Slightly better quality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDBYWCwAN2o&fmt=18

It gets what little point I do have across. that point being...Hakeem is a bad mother****er. Maybe we should let some of these modern guys catch Hakeem before we even start talking about catching Jordan. None of them are even that close to Dream in his prime. I think you should prove greater than the apostles before you are in the running for next Jesus....

[Qdouble]

Well said. Well said.

I'm still waiting for the next Hakeem Olajuwon. Kemp showed glimpses of it in 96 then coked out. Amare isn't even close, especially with his defense.

[john_d]

wow this thread reinvented teh wheel.

.. ^^

hakeem is one every 20 years kind of player

[CasterL]

nice read, admitedly didnt know some of his statlines wer that monstrous. beastage

[brantonli]

Very neat how the first reply's username is Qdouble, very very neat. I feel Hakeem, along with Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Payton (since Glove20 disappered anyway) and some others are so untalked about on ISH....nostalgic posts are always fun to read.

[Odomize]

I always thought D-Rob was the better player. Hakeem's just better when they meet head to head but against other teams, D-Rob was better.

[kwajo]

***** ******* *** ****.

[2LeTTeRS]

I always thought D-Rob was the better player. Hakeem's just better when they meet head to head but against other teams, D-Rob was better.

Seriously? I thought I was the biggest D Rob fan here.

[juju151111]

I always thought D-Rob was the better player. Hakeem's just better when they meet head to head but against other teams, D-Rob was better.
Hell no.

[lefthook00]

Imagine THESE twin towers...Hakeem and Duncan :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[JJ81]

I love the dream, one of my favourite players

[Dasher]

I think you should prove greater than the apostles before you are in the running for next Jesus....Great closing line. I always had a great deal of affection for the Dream. He is one of, if not the most beautiful players to watch. He would often times completely humble his competition in a manner that would make me want to turn away from the carnage. I still can't watch his destruction of DRob without giving myself a couple of breaks to digest what I am watching. It was like watching a guy get pummelled in a championship boxing match, after a while you want to see the ref stop the fight. When you add the fact that he would often school cats while fasting during Ramadan, his feats become even more impressive.

[Da_Realist]

Hey man, thanks for the Hakeem love. Damn, sometimes I think people forget about that guy. That dude was a MONSTER and I still say he's the best center I ever saw play. *#

* I caught Kareem late in his career so he doesn't count.
# Yes, that includes Shaq

[Qdouble]

Very neat how the first reply's username is Qdouble, very very neat. I feel Hakeem, along with Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Payton (since Glove20 disappered anyway) and some others are so untalked about on ISH....nostalgic posts are always fun to read.

Thanks, it's my homage to Hakeem and D-Rob. I'm a fan of the 5.

While we're at it, we might as well list some good memories. I've followed Dream since 87, so I have some great memories of him.

My favorite memory of Dream has to come against Ronny Seikaly. It's in the first few games of the 94-95 season, and the Rocs have a little buzz, because they're the champs, and the Heat crowd was really expecting something. And Hakeem didn't fail to deliver.

I wish I still had the video, but my god, what Hakeem did was the 100% Dream Shake. I'm not talking about a simple baseline turn around or that move he did against D-Rob. I'm talking about catch, juking left and right like someone put the blender on maximum and then fall away jumper. Seikaly was completely juked. By the time Seikaly had comprehended what Hakeem was doing, commit to defense, and actually move to defend, Dream was already running back to half-court to play D. That was the greatest Dream Shake I ever saw.

My second great memory of Dream had to do when he was older in 98 or 99. It was against Sharif Abdul-Rahim. Dream had blocked Rahim twice, and Rahim vowed to dunk on him. Dream finished the game with 6 to 8 blocks.

[FindingTim]

BEAST. good post, great video. I like that song, too. that was a remix, no?

Not too many players have ever been the best in the league on offense and defense at the same time.

lastly, to the poster who said D-Rob is better than Hakeem: :no:

[Biddy77]

i know there were some timely (clutch) contributions from a couple guys on that first championship team, but i can't think of another championship team since i've been watching the NBA (1988) where taking the superstar off the roster left so bleak a picture.

without hakeem, i am completely confident that that team would have been *garbage*.

here's a link, and i want guys to take a look at something... their number 2 option on offense *wasn't* otis thorpe. he just managed to average the 2nd most points, thanks to being pretty efficient. no, unfortuneately for that Rockets squad, the guy they actually designated as their number 2 scoring option was Vernon Maxwell. other than hakeem, he took 4 more shots than anyone else on the team, and from his 13.0 shots per game, he managed to average just 13.6 points. that's 1.04 points per shot.

Vernon, my friends... was a chucker.

seeing that guy in action was frustrating, because any time i ever saw hakeem, i couldn't help but respect the work he put in, and the class with which he carried himself. he was an unbelieveably humble and dignified human being, and... he had to drag Vernon Maxwell to a ring.

luckily, that team had very strong supporting contributions from Mario Elie, Robert Horry, and Sam Cassell--but the younger guys here need to understand that Big Shot Rob *wasn't* Big Shot Rob before this season, and Sam Cassell and his swagger were fresh out of FSU and hadn't yet made a rep for himself. before the playoffs that year, those guys were just guys who were considered role players.


seeing Clyde and Hakeem reunited the following year was bittersweet for me. on the one hand, i'm a blazer fan. i was really bummed about seeing Clyde leave us, but i was thrilled to see Hakeem and Clyde both so happy, and having a close friend who was also a star player for the other to count on.

[Kblaze8855]

I always thought D-Rob was the better player. Hakeem's just better when they meet head to head but against other teams, D-Rob was better.

Drob was a more consistient shooter from 15-18 feet but didnt have Hakeems post moves(not hat he needed a lot of variety to score around the basket). He was a similar faceup player. He wasnt better at anything that id want a center to be better at though. And he didnt step up as much.

[Odomize]

Drob was a more consistient shooter from 15-18 feet but didnt have Hakeems post moves(not hat he needed a lot of variety to score around the basket). He was a similar faceup player. He wasnt better at anything that id want a center to be better at though. And he didnt step up as much.
to each his own :cheers:

[HisJoeness]

It gets what little point I do have across. That point being...Hakeem is a bad mother****er. Maybe we should let some of these modern guys catch Hakeem before we even start talking about catching Jordan. None of them are even that close to Dream in his prime. I think you should prove greater than the apostles before you are in the running for next Jesus....

:bowdown:

Great job what a great quote to end that piece. You pretty much summed why Hakeem is my favorite center of all-time and even though his numbers may not be as gaudy as Kareem's, Shaq's or Wilt's. I'd take him over any of those guys.

[eliteballer]

It gets what little point I do have across. that point being...Hakeem is a bad mother****er. Maybe we should let some of these modern guys catch Hakeem before we even start talking about catching Jordan.

Prime Dream is on Jordan's level...he outplayed other superstars in the playoffs just as badly as Jordan did.

[lilojmayo]

.

Prime Dream is on Jordan's level...

kobe fans :rolleyes:

[eliteballer]

You weren't even concieved when Hakeem was in his prime, STFU :rolleyes:

[Stacey King]

You weren't even concieved when Hakeem was in his prime, STFU :rolleyes:

:roll:

Although, I'll have to disagree. While Hakeem is an all-time great, I think he's a notch below Jordan...... but there's no shame in that. Top 10-12 all time IMO.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont know about that. Jordan outplayed say...Drexler(the only player at or near his position ever considered a real rival...though it was brief)...by more than Hakeem outplayed Drob or Shaq. But its not that irrational to say that Hakeem at his peak was as good as Jordan from 96-98. 94 Hakeem is as good as Jordan was in his 30s. But 88-93 Jordan is probably the greatest to ever play and if not....just as good as anyone ever. Hakeem is as good as the slightly declined Jordan of the second run.

[eliteballer]

Hakeem at his peak has the DEFENSIVE impact Jordan doesn't, just by virtue of being a paint patrolling C. Im also talking about stars in general. I.E. Jordan vs Drexler, Barkley in 93, Kemp, Ewing etc. Doesn't have to be the same position.

[Stacey King]

Hakeem at his peak has the DEFENSIVE impact Jordan doesn't, just by virtue of being a paint patrolling C.

True, but Jordan also had much greater OFFENSIVE impact than Hakeem

[Kblaze8855]

That he does. But Jordan was just too close to unstoppable on offense and added to that...was maybe the best defender ever at his potision. He makes up for the positional difference more than most could. His total dominance is a notch above Hakeems id say but im not offended by the idea that someone might think otherwise. And I say that being nearly sure you dont.

[starks]

you see Hakeem was in retrospect either given a 10th assist in the game vs the warriors on march 3rd or denied the 10th he was given to begin with. The NBA doesnt consider it an "official" quadruple double since it took a review and is questionable. But they in fact list it in his game logs. go check. Any site featuring game logs from 1990 includes Hakeem getting 2 quadruple doubles in March.

But the thing is I cant find proof of if he was given 10 and the 10th was taken on later revierw or given 9 and the 10th was added on review. Ive read stories suggesting both. Not having seen the official record on paper for the night....I just call it a quadruple double because the records show it as one. But its not often acknowledged. But lets say he didnt...

.

He had 9 assists in the statsheet that was given out after the game. Then Houston officials reviewed the tape and claimed there was an assist which was not credited so they changed it. But the league reviewed it and took it away.




Olajuwon's quadruple-double voided after NBA reviews tape
6 March 1990
The Dallas Morning News
(Copyright 1990)

Houston center Akeem Olajuwon said he considered his quadruple-double in Saturday's victory over Golden State "a big accomplishment.'

It turned out not to be as big as Olajuwon and the Rockets' staff thought.

The NBA office stripped Olajuwon of his quadruple-double after reviewing the film of Houston's 129-120 victory over the Warriors. The discrepancy involved an assist in the first quarter.

The box score distributed after the game gave Olajuwon credit for nine assists. But the Houston statistical crew reviewed the tape after the game and came up with another assist giving Olajuwon 10.

The league office looked at that play Monday -- a kickout pass to Buck Johnson in the first quarter -- and took away the assist.

"A box score should not be changed after the fact for the purpose of achieving a statistical milestone,' said Rod Thorn, the league's vice president of operations. "If an appreciable statistical change needs to be made after the box score is distributed, the league office is responsible for making a change if deemed necessary.'

Olajuwon's final line: 29 points, 18 rebounds, 11 blocked shots and nine assists.

"I'm just a little disappointed,' Olajuwon said. "I was disappointed because I thought it was a big accomplishment. I had it for a day, then they took it off. That gives me something to shoot for.'

There have only been two recorded quadruple-doubles in NBA history

Nate Thurmond of Chicago was the first to accomplish a quadruple-double with 22 points, 14 rebounds, 13 assists and 12 blocked shots on Oct. 18, 1974. Alvin Robertson, then of San Antonio, had 20 points, 10 assists, 11 rebounds and 10 steals on Feb. 18, 1986 against Phoenix.

Late in the fourth quarter of the runaway victory, Olajuwon had only nine blocks and was sitting on the Rockets bench.

"Coach (Don) Chaney asked me if I wanted to go back into the game to get that block,' he said.

The 7-footer rejected two shots in the final 4:02. He also had five steals.

Olajuwon, who has been criticized for not passing the ball enough, never before had more than seven assists in an NBA game.

"Now that I know how it feels to get that many assists, I might dish it out more often,' Olajuwon joked.






SPORTS
Akeem's quad-double disallowed by league
EDDIE SEFKO
6 March 1990
Houston Chronicle

SAN ANTONIO - As far as the NBA is concerned, Akeem Olajuwon's remarkable quadruple-double was indeed a great individual performance.

What it wasn't, however, was a quadrupledouble.

After dissecting film from Saturday's game between the Rockets and Golden State, league officials disallowed the rare quad-double with which Olajuwon had been credited.

Rod Thorn, the NBA's vice president for operations, said Monday the league could not locate a 10th assist for Olajuwon, who had 29 points, 18 rebounds and 11 blocked shots against the Warriors.

The Rockets originally credited Olajuwon with nine assists. But Coach Don Chaney and media-relations director Jay Goldberg viewed the game film immediately after the buzzer and thought they had found an assist that was not credited to Olajuwon.

A revised statistical summary was issued, awarding Olajuwon the quad-double.

The league not only nullified the quad-double, which would have been only the third in NBA history, but they sent a message to the Rockets and other teams that amended statistics from games will not be allowed.

``A box score should not be changed after the fact for the purpose of achieving a statistical milestone,'' Thorn said. ``If an appreciable statistical change needs to be made after the box score is distributed, the league office is responsible for making the change if it is deemed necessary.' Thorn added the action was ``not intended to diminish in any way what was obviously a tremendous performance by one of the NBA's great players.' Olajuwon, who said after the game he thought he had achieved ``a big accomplishment'' said he didn't think the league's reversal was a slap at him or the Rockets. He said he thought his feat was legitimate.

``There were 10 assists,'' he said. ``They just said you can't change the number after the game.

``It bothers me a little, but what can you do?' In this case, nothing. Especially because the NBA went to great lengths to overrule on the accomplishment.

After reviewing the game film, the league called Goldberg and had a teleconference to clarify the ruling.

``As far as we're concerned, he did it,'' Rockets General Manager Steve Patterson said.

Said Goldberg: ``I agree with Steve. I stand by it being 10 assists.' But Olajuwon will not join Nate Thurmond and Alvin Robertson in the NBA archives as the only people to get a quad-double.

[eliteballer]

No. I do. At his peak he was just as dominant as guys like Bird and Magic as well as Jordan to me. He had everything offensively except for the 3 point shot. Could pass the ball. Defensively his impact>>all of them. Destroying legends left and right. He was just a beast.

[jinsanity]

Hakeem is great! Man I miss that dream shake. What a sick move =).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc02Z4-0wDM



On a slight OT, Kevin Johnson...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifx_gRF-ouU

I read about this dunk recently. KJ had managed to get by Kenny Smith constantly and then pass it off to Barkley/another teammate , only to get blocked by Hakeem. They did that a few times and Hakeem blocked all of them. So KJ decided he had enough and decided to score himself =).

[Kblaze8855]

So he kicked it out and the shot was made but they missed it the first time in the stats...and the NBA didnt want to change it just for the record even though the assist did happen?

[starks]

Maybe it was a legit assist and they missed it, maybe it wasn't a legit assist and Houston officials claimed it was.

And the article says, the questionable assist was in the first quarter. So, it wasn't the 10th assist or something.

In any case, I think the league did the right thing. Because I'm sure there are lots of missed or overcredited stats in every game. If every team's stat crew reviews the tape by themselves and try to change the official stats, then there would be chaos.

[Jasper]

Two simple points I will make about keem -

Probably the quickest center that played the game and he learned moves from vid's of Jordan.

I'll never forget how he schooled young Shaq , and at his prime schooled Ewing.

[Kblaze8855]

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn45/kblaze888555/Hakeem.gif

[bumpyknucks]

That clip at 2:18 is great.....Ive never seen it before......the Mailman getting his isht punched after doing that pose.

[RoseCity07]

Guy was never appreciated because the league didn't like Houston being in the finals. They wanted to promote Chicago, Los Angeles, and New York.

Another player that totally gets overlooked is Kareem. Guy might actually be better than Michael Jordan himself. I myself have said Jordan was better but now I'm rethinking it.

We are talking about the all time leader in points scored. You know he has more rebounds and blocks than Jordan.

Kareem was the man.

[Riker]

Maybe we should let some of these modern guys catch Hakeem before we even start talking about catching Jordan. None of them are even that close to Dream in his prime. I think you should prove greater than the apostles before you are in the running for next Jesus....

No because James jockies are smart.

They will use the words as "dominant like no other ever" and bla bla - and than twist it as soon as you put a goon like Hakeem on the case.

See, my whole point here, these players today are nowhere near the 90's Superstars.

Nowhere.

These guys played the best games against TOP teams. They didnt waste too much energy on crushing stats over San Diego Foresters or Tucson Space Cadets

They went in when the stakes were high.


Nowdays we see slightly above average performances against proper teams and defenses and "monster" games against sub-par teams.


But the media needs money, needs interest and needs a new "Jesus". They really work hard to fabricate one.


Your post was amazing, I repped you and I have now esablished Akeem as my #1 center in my All Time NBA starting 5.

I couldnt decide between him and Shaq sometimes. Now I can.

[bdreason]

Hakeem is the second best player I've ever watched play in their prime.

I didn't get to see Kareem's prime, but I did watch most of Magic's and Bird's primes (I was really young)... and I'm taking Hakeem over both of them.

[bdreason]

Guy was never appreciated because the league didn't like Houston being in the finals. They wanted to promote Chicago, Los Angeles, and New York.

Another player that totally gets overlooked is Kareem. Guy might actually be better than Michael Jordan himself. I myself have said Jordan was better but now I'm rethinking it.

We are talking about the all time leader in points scored. You know he has more rebounds and blocks than Jordan.

Kareem was the man.


I missed Kareem's prime as a kid. I think Kareem gets overlooked because the league really exploded when Magic and Bird hit the scene. Magic will even tell you that Kareem was the most dominant player of all-time, and the best player on those Lakers teams... even in the twilight of his career.

[Hammertime]

Us older guys are often accused of looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses when we talk about old players, and there are times when even I suspect that's true. Then I try to put things into perspective. I remember a few years back when Ben Wallace made the ASG four times in a row and was even a starter for one or two, I believe. On some very intrinsic level, this bothered me greatly, and I argued with my friends over it. They would laud his defense, his contribution to the 2004 Pistons title, and say how when you really get down to it, he was a great center.

I would then look back at the 80s and even the 90s and think, good lord, how low have the standards gotten? Ben Wallace is a great defensive player. Well, he was 5 years ago, anyway. Even at that point though, would I say that on defensive end, he was better than Hakeem? D-Rob? Ewing? Mt. Mutombo? Moses? Kareem? Hell, as a Jazz fan, I would even say that in his prime, Mark Eaton was a much more terrifying and dominant defensive presence than Wallace. And with the exception of Eaton, those other guys had offensive game the likes of which Ben Wallace has only seen in video games. And yet for a brief while, Ben Wallace was a top-3 center in the league. Don't tell me the quality hasn't gone down.

And then I hear people compare Dwight Howard to Hakeem. People who've evidently never seen Hakeem and only know that he was a center, and he put up close to 25-15 at one point. And I almost forget that Hakeem has been retired for almost a decade, and that I haven't seen footage of his prime in year. Then I watch a retro game on NBATV and I get my jaw off the floor eventually. Dwight Howard is so one-dimensional compared to Hakeem that I don't even know where to begin. Passing, shooting, spin-moves, ability to beat double-teams....All things that Hakeem did well and Dwight Howard doesn't. Nevermind that you'll never see the ball in Dwight's hands with the game on the line.

I think the problem is that many of these old players have simply moved from our TVs and into the legend, and have become so ingrained in our minds as legends, that people sometimes forget they haven't actually seen very much of them. It's like last night when after the doubleheader on TNT, they showed a clip of Paul Millsap talking (very respectfully) about Karl Malone and saying that while a prime Malone could kick his ass easily, he might be able to beat current Malone one-on-one. The Mailman's response to him was "Son, I still got one great game left in me. Do you really wanna be on the receiving end of it?" Malone may be 45, and 4 years into his retirement, but people need to remember that he had moves that perhaps no player at his position today does. Does Paul Millsap really think he could defend the 20-foot fadeaway that players in the 90s couldn't?

[joe]

K-Blaze, I don't respect anyones opinion on this site like I do yours. So can you do a break-down of todays players vs the 90s players? And I'm not talking about just all the stars, I mean role-players too. A lot of people say things like "man the 6th man on every 90's team would be a star today."

Well, okay, they don't get that far, but you get my drift. Were the 90's really some melting pot of incredible basketball that completely shatters todays league or is this just a lot of fuzzy memories at play.

[Psileas]

I wont bother with talking about his skills which we should all be well aware of. With all the recent talk of stats and which stats are more impressive and the nationwide polls and so on......I am going to give you a selection of Hakeems best games....not from his career. And not even from one season. But one month. March of 1990

Coincidentally, I had recently skimmed through his '90 season statlines a few days ago. Hakeem at March '90 played some of the greatest all-around basketball ever. His averages for the month were 26.0 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 spg, 6.1 bpg. Disgusting.

[Hammertime]

Coincidentally, I had recently skimmed through his '90 season statlines a few days ago. Hakeem at March '90 played some of the greatest all-around basketball ever. His averages for the month were 26.0 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 spg, 6.1 bpg. Disgusting.

He better have been the player of the month. I think back then they still did that league-wide and not conference-wide.

[lolwut]

:bowdown:

My favorite player ever without any shadow of doubt.

[DonDadda59]

I always thought D-Rob was the better player. Hakeem's just better when they meet head to head but against other teams, D-Rob was better.

DRob was in no way, shape, or form even near the level of The Dream. Just to drive home the point, enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

So am I supposed to disregard this epic ass whooping just because you think Robinson was better against other teams and worse centers. He was thoroughly dominated man to man against Hakeem, yet you think Robinson was better? Olajuwon>>>Robinson by a lot.

[big baller]

Next game he put up 29 points...18 rebounds....11 blocks...10 assists...and 5 steals.

WRONG


Hakeem Olajuwon, March 29, 1990, Houston vs. Milwaukee; 18 points, 16 rebounds, 10 assists, 11 blocks.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple-double


EDIT: MY BAD KBLAZE

[big baller]

:oldlol: at Bron/Kobe not even being close.:roll:

They arent idiot, Hakeem was.....W8, how ****in old are you???

[lolwut]

WRONG


Hakeem Olajuwon, March 29, 1990, Houston vs. Milwaukee; 18 points, 16 rebounds, 10 assists, 11 blocks.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple-double


:roll:

Read his entire post you idiot.

[big baller]

:roll:

Read his entire post you idiot.

My bad, didnt read it all :lol

[lolwut]

My bad, didnt read it all :lol


alright. sorry I called you an idiot. :lol

[big baller]

alright. sorry I called you an idiot. :lol


its all good :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

EDIT: MY BAD KBLAZE

No problem. I expected it eventually.

[Scott Pippen]

:oldlol: at Bron/Kobe not even being close.:roll:
they aren't. Especially on defense, since Olajuwon is probably the GOAT defensive player (note I didn't watch Wilt or Russ). That is very impressive considering the many big men that have been dominant defensively over the years.

[HisJoeness]

Wow K-Blaze and Hammertime just ran the pick-and-roll to perfection. They crushed this thread.

[barkleynash]

I know you can debate this till the cows come home, but the dream was actually the greatest center to ever play the game, dominance wise, athletic wise and skill wise. he played both ends of the floor equally well.

If i had to rank them, with an emphasis on how good they were, disregarding eras,
it would have to be the
hakeem
shaq
Kareem

Everybody else, including russell and Chamberlain fall below those 3.

What does everybody think.

If Duncan is considered a center, which he should be, he would fall in fourth.

[Scott Pippen]

yeah right.:oldlol: at anyone who honestly thinks hakeem was on a completely different level then those 2.thats why the peak PER for both kobe and lebron is higher then hakeems absolute peak.
I believe PER is absolutely useless for era comparisons. All it does is show you who dominated more vs their peers. Big men have always dominated this game since 1947. At least until a few years ago where they turned it into a guard league. I never understood it. The NBA had so much talent at the guard position in the mid 00s. Why change the rules again to give them an already lopsided advantage vs the bigs?

[HisJoeness]

yeah right.:oldlol: at anyone who honestly thinks hakeem was on a completely different level then those 2.thats why the peak PER for both kobe and lebron is higher then hakeems absolute peak.

Your stupidity is only surpassed by your stubbornness.

[Kblaze8855]

yeah right. at anyone who honestly thinks hakeem was on a completely different level then those 2.thats why the peak PER for both kobe and lebron is higher then hakeems absolute peak.

Hakeem was the 7th highest rated player 6'8'' and up in PER in the year I posted all those numbers from. Manu had a higher PER last year than Kobe. So what?

[ronnymac]

The dream is why i followed the rockets. been a fan since i was 9 years old and will be a fan till i go to my grave. the drubbing he gave robinson was astonishing. after watching his well deserved MVP trophy given to the admiral, it was allways gonna be a nightmare for robinson. i remember his last game as a rockets where he had 28 points 14 boards 5 assists 6 blocks against the wolves and KG was guarding him. not to mention he was 38 at the time.

Just over 12 months ago, olajuwon took yao under his wing and they had a few very intense workouts.and a few witnesses said that olajuwon pretty much embrassed yao in there games at age 43.i bet he can still be a force in todays league.

[Hammertime]

per does a better job adjusting for era comparisons then any other stat out there-you realize that hollinger adjusts for pace in his formula? so that argument really doesn't work.

You do realize that no one takes Hollinger seriously? Well, no one outside of internet nerds. When NBA coaches start citing PER, you might have a point.

[Scott Pippen]

per does a better job adjusting for era comparisons then any other stat out there-you realize that hollinger adjusts for pace in his formula? so that argument really doesn't work.
Pace is not the only difference between eras and I do not rank players based on statistics. You watch games and see their impact on the court.

[Kblaze8855]

so what? if hakeem was on a whole different level from kobe you would think he would absolutely blow him away statistically which is clearly not the case. its blatant disrespect to kobe and lebron to say that hakeem was on a whole other level especially if we're talking about prime/peak play.

Is it disrespect to say 08 Kobe was a whole other level than 08 Manu?

[juju151111]

so what? if hakeem was on a whole different level from kobe you would think he would absolutely blow him away statistically which is clearly not the case. its blatant disrespect to kobe and lebron to say that hakeem was on a whole other level especially if we're talking about prime/peak play.:rolleyes:
Hakeem led his team to the finals by himself and won.He also didn't have home court in no series, but dominated. LOL MJ and Hakeem play there best on the big stage.

[Hammertime]

who gives a ****. PER is arguably the best single metric out there to measure productivity and im using it.

This is the equivalent of the "The Bible must be the word of G-d because it says so in the Bible" argument.

[CasterL]

you telling me hakkem would be the #1 player by far in today's league? give me a break.


yes he would, alongside lebron and possibly kobe

[Hammertime]

how else are you going to measure players? one of the best ways is stats. you cant watch every game. whats the best stat out there for measuring productivity/cumulative box-score ?PER.

The best thing is to watch games, and shut the f*ck up about players you haven't seen. Hence you don't see me arguing whether Mikan was better than Pettit here.

[Scott Pippen]

On second thought I am not sure if he'd be #1 today "by far" considering just how much of a disadvantage the bigs have under the current rules on both ends of the floor. But under neutral rules he is easily better in my opinion.

[juju151111]

yeah, i realize he was a sick, sick player.thanks.:rolleyes:
I was just pointing out that he eoesn't fold under the big lights. I mean look at lebrick and kome on the big stage. That would of separated them alot.

[HisJoeness]

you telling me hakkem would be the #1 player by far in today's league? give me a break.

A Hakeem Olajuwon in his prime? In this league?

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

I'd take him 100/100 times.

[Hammertime]

the best things is watch the games AND use the stats.

Here's a stat. Hakeem Olajuwon led this team to an NBA title. Be honest, how many players do you even recognize here? http://basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=HOU&lg=N&yr=1993

If you can show me a worse supporting cast that any superstar took to the title, then we can talk.

[stephanieg]

Hakeem played on some really bad teams in his prime. Most of the time they were easily eliminated in the first round, despite his utter brilliance. There was that time they made the finals in '86 with an OK team and he went crazy against Boston but it didn't matter. After that it was all downhill until eight years later. The most absurd year was in '88 when he averaged 37 ppg / 16.8 rpg / 2.75 bpg on 57% and lost in four. Even his title teams weren't very good. His guys stepped up when they had to but they were ridiculously lucky. They won series they shouldn't have. Going down, no home court multiple times...most of the time they lose those. Hakeem shouldn't have any titles tbh, it's a miracle he has two. Six seeds don't win titles. Give this guy a real supporting cast and we'll see who the "GOAT" is.

My only criticism I can offer up is that he sometimes fell in love with his baseline fadeaway. I mean yeah it was a great bail out move, shot clock running down, double team, impossible to defend, but sometimes he would get in a rut with it. He also didn't age as well as he should have, but his prime (essentially his first year until '95 or so) was unfair. Here's a center who moves like a guard and has cat like reflexes. It's so funny watching him steal the ball on the perimeter, dribble all the way up by himself and dunk it. And he did that a lot. He got an absurd amount of steals for a big man. He just knew where to be. Highly mobile. I wonder how much KG modeled his game after his, if at all.

Well, there's also the fact he doesn't have any scoring titles. Obviously not any good without those...

[ronnymac]

Hakeem played on some really bad teams in his prime. Most of the time they were easily eliminated in the first round, despite his utter brilliance. There was that time they made the finals in '86 with an OK team and he went crazy against Boston but it didn't matter. After that it was all downhill until eight years later. The most absurd year was in '88 when he averaged 37 ppg / 16.8 rpg / 2.75 bpg on 57% and lost in four. Even his title teams weren't very good. His guys stepped up when they had to but they were ridiculously lucky. They won series they shouldn't have. Going down, no home court multiple times...most of the time they lose those. Hakeem shouldn't have any titles tbh, it's a miracle he has two. Give this guy a real supporting cast and we'll see who the "GOAT" is.

My only criticism I can offer up is that he sometimes fell in love with his baseline fadeaway. I mean yeah it was a great bail out move, shot clock running down, double team, impossible to defend, but sometimes he would get in a rut with it. He also didn't age as well as he should have, but his prime (essentially his first year until '95 or so) was unfair. Here's a center who moves like a guard and has cat like reflexes. It's so funny watching him steal the ball on the perimeter, dribble all the way up by himself and dunk it. And he did that a lot. He got an absurd amount of steals for a big man.

Well, there's also the fact he doesn't have any scoring titles. Obviously not any good...

The 1 peat team and the 2nd peat team were nothing to write home about interms of talent, but those guys were cold blooded assasins. we had kenny smith killing the suns on that amazing performance. then ellie repeated it. eveb guys like scott brooks where there in the mix. cassell and horry obviously along with the dream the standouts, but evcen then they were pretty much kids. it just goes to show how insane the dream was.

[Hammertime]

what are you guys trying to prove? i already know Hakeem was disgustingly good. but do i thinks hes on a completely different level then current kobe/lebron-hell no.

I never said anything about LeBron or Kobe, I simply pointed out that if you were going to argue the other guys on this, you gotta do better than quote Hollinger.

But while we're on the topic, replace Hakeem with current Kobe(they're the same age) on that '94 Rockets team. Do they win the title? Do they even make the playoffs?

[juju151111]

one of the greatest playoff performers in history and one of the greatest clutch players in history-he sure sucks in big moments.:roll:
So is Dream, but in the finals is a different story.

[ronnymac]

what are you guys trying to prove? i already know Hakeem was disgustingly good. but do i thinks hes on a completely different level then current kobe/lebron-hell no.
He was better then those two. olajuwons ability to change a whole game was uncanny. he would just destroy teams on both sides of the ball. also olajuwons atheletic ability is so underrated, in his prime he was dubbed a black panthar due to his sheer speed for some one with his size and stature.

[Scott Pippen]

The 1 peat team and the 2nd peat team were nothing to write home about interms of talent, but those guys were cold blooded assasins. we had kenny smith killing the suns on that amazing performance. then ellie repeated it. eveb guys like scott brooks where there in the mix. cassell and horry obviously along with the dream the standouts, but evcen then they were pretty much kids. it just goes to show how insane the dream was.
Of course. Gm. 7 in 1995 between Rockets/Suns was one of my all time favorites. They battled through a fantastic game from K.J. & even though Charles was hurt, it took a Mario Elie shot to really put them away. :bowdown:

[stephanieg]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3319/3259225237_8849eec6bc_o.jpg


It's unfortunate that by the time Kareem and Hakeem got to square off Cap was an old man.

[juju151111]

never said he wasnt.
What about the finals tho. Where legends are made.Where is LJ and KB rank in finals dominance. I mean these two guys can't be stop right. No way thier finals stats are thrash oh wait.

[ronnymac]

i have no problem with anybody thinking so. whole other level?please.
Probaly not another level better, but he was better overral.

[ronnymac]

What about the finals tho. Where legends are made.Where is LJ and KB rank in finals dominance. I mean these two guys can't be stop right. No way thier finals stats are thrash oh wait.
The playoffs are where olajuwon came into his own. as mario ellie once said it, once the playoffs came around, hakkem looked like his body was taken over by a super natural force. his whole attitude would change. he was'nt the same guy.

[juju151111]

The playoffs are where olajuwon came into his own. as mario ellie once said it, once the playoffs came around, hakkem looked like his body was taken over by a super natural force. his whole attitude would change. he was'nt the same guy.
lol i can tellLook at his face when he saw drod with the MVP.lol What idiots picked him.

[Kblaze8855]

no. you know damn well that comparison wont work. kobe and hakeem are 2 of the greatest ever. manu? besides, 08 kobe wasnt prime kobe.

So Kobe is currently in his prime but was not last year?

And PER alone means Hakeem isnt better than Lebrion and Kobe but it doesnt mean anything when you compare Manu to them? either it matter or it doesnt. and being in the same year? Kobe and Manus PER are actually better to compare. Its per compared to the same players. Besides in straight production(eff.) Hakeem in 1993 was the second most productive player in a single season in the last 20 years after Jordan in 89.

Hakeem in his prime scored the same 28 a game Kobe and Lebron do while being a far better defender than either. And when he wasnt scoring at that rate(like in the late 80s to early 90s) he was putting up defensive numbers that are disgusting...and he still had the ability to score.

His offense really wasnt even his best feature to me but in 95 he put up 33 a game on the way to the title. 33 for the whole playoffs. Jordan is the only other player to do that and win it all and he only did it in 92 and 93. Hakeem put up 33/10/5 for the whole playoffs and played better D than offense in the eyes of many. He puts up 33 a game on a title run and neither Lebron or Kobe have put up 33 for an entire playoffs be it a first round exit or a run to the finals they lost. this guy led his team past a 61 win team in the first round as the 6th seed. Then beat the Suns after being down 0-2 in the series. Then gave Drob 40 in 4 out of 6 games getting by the "mvp" and the #1 seed. Then goes to the finals and helps sweep the Magic who had homecourt and a 60+ win record with 31/14/7 and 35/15/6 in games 3 and 4 to win the title.

The level he was at in his prime....he was better than anyone in the NBA is now. Hakeem at his peak could realistically lead this lead in scoring, rebounds, blocks, be top 3 in steals, win MVP, and DPOY. In fact....id be shocked if given 3 years(06,07, and 08) and a half decent team he didnt win the DPOY 3 times and at least 2MVPs and score 27-30 all 3 years.

[Marikina]

Why did this guy ever retire as a Raptor? I never understood that.

[ronnymac]

lol i can tellLook at his face when he saw drod with the MVP.lol What idiots picked him.
Back then robinson was the nba darling. the picture perfect all american naval serviceman. olajuwon was viewed as the complete opposite. both those guys had great years, but it was widely accepted that the dream was screwed out of the MVP trophy that year.it dosent bother me, we endedup beating the spurs after losing our first two games that year anmd went onto to win the chip.

[ronnymac]

Why did this guy ever retire as a Raptor? I never understood that.
Money. the rockets low balled him. one of the darkest moments in our franchise history. dwason refused to give him a 3 years 6 mill a year deal. the raptors did and that was that. in reality though, most people remember as a roket and not a raptor.

[Qdouble]

Money. the rockets low balled him. one of the darkest moments in our franchise history. dwason refused to give him a 3 years 6 mill a year deal. the raptors did and that was that. in reality though, most people remember as a roket and not a raptor.

ronnymac, I love Dream as much as the next person, but the Rocs didn't lowball him. He said he was going to retire after the 01 season. Then at the eve of camp of the 01 season, he decided that he still wanted to play which put the Rocs in a bad spot. His skill was definitely gone by that time and his durability was in serious decline. Dream took offense that the Rocs wanted to put him out to pasture so during a game against he Knicks (after a half season of injuries and just poor output) Dream cranked it out one last time and average 15 points and 10 rebounds for the rest of the remaining games.

The Raptors were gung-ho and offered Dream a 3 year guaranteed contract worth 16-18 millions dollars at the start. The Rocs were hesitant, offering a 3 year year contract with only the first year guaranteed, before eventually offering all three years guaranteed. But by that time, Dream took offense to that and went to the Raptors. The Rocs made the right decision as tough as it was to let a legend leave.

At the time, I wasn't disappointed with the Rocs organization. I was more disappointed with the Roc fans. Everyone was on the Steve Francis bandwagon and salivated even more at the thought of Eddie Griffin joining the team. They remembered the Dream in 95 and that's what they always expected. So when he couldn't juke and Dream Shake like yesteryear, some of the fans seemed to have either moved on or turn their back to him. Offensively, Dream was dead, but defensively, he was still an adequate player. And I found it pretty shocking how quick fans were to easily drop off the man who brought the city two rings.

[Da_Realist]

Hakeem played on some really bad teams in his prime. Most of the time they were easily eliminated in the first round, despite his utter brilliance. There was that time they made the finals in '86 with an OK team and he went crazy against Boston but it didn't matter. After that it was all downhill until eight years later. The most absurd year was in '88 when he averaged 37 ppg / 16.8 rpg / 2.75 bpg on 57% and lost in four. Even his title teams weren't very good. His guys stepped up when they had to but they were ridiculously lucky. They won series they shouldn't have. Going down, no home court multiple times...most of the time they lose those. Hakeem shouldn't have any titles tbh, it's a miracle he has two. Six seeds don't win titles. Give this guy a real supporting cast and we'll see who the "GOAT" is.

My only criticism I can offer up is that he sometimes fell in love with his baseline fadeaway. I mean yeah it was a great bail out move, shot clock running down, double team, impossible to defend, but sometimes he would get in a rut with it. He also didn't age as well as he should have, but his prime (essentially his first year until '95 or so) was unfair. Here's a center who moves like a guard and has cat like reflexes. It's so funny watching him steal the ball on the perimeter, dribble all the way up by himself and dunk it. And he did that a lot. He got an absurd amount of steals for a big man. He just knew where to be. Highly mobile. I wonder how much KG modeled his game after his, if at all.

Well, there's also the fact he doesn't have any scoring titles. Obviously not any good without those...

Check out a young Hakeem getting 3 straight steals against the 86 Celtics in the Finals. From 0:40 - 2:30 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE-E9q5nnf0&feature=related#t=0m41s)

[Dasher]

LOL at the youngin usin PER to further his argument, and then tossing it out a post or two later. I have never seen PER used outside of the internet. Back on topic Hakeem would be the best player in the league, and I am saying this with "and it's not even close", and "hands down" tags. The 2004-05 Lakers would have been title contenders if you substituted a prime Hakeem for Kobe. That Lakers team was more talented than the Rocket's 1st title team.

[stephanieg]

Check out a young Hakeem getting 3 straight steals against the 86 Celtics in the Finals. From 0:40 - 2:30 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE-E9q5nnf0&feature=related#t=0m41s)

Yes, that's a perfect example. I've seen the entire series. Seeing Hakeem and McHale one upping each other with amazing moves and Bird being Bird is all very entertaining. I remember there being a jumpball where Bird wins against Hakeem but we can pretend that never happened. Also the mini-brawl wasn't too bad either.

One thing some people may forget when watching Hakeem games from his title runs is that he's not really in his prime anymore. Yeah he dominated his opponents and put up great numbers and all but in the '80s he was on another plane. It's kinda like Jordan, since they were drafted together. Jordan in the '80s was just...an alien. It's difficult to pin down exactly, but somewhere in the 92-93 time frame he lost something. Obviously he was still good enough to own the NBA, but if you compare games from like three-four years before the difference is pretty clear. Same with Hakeem. Hakeem started to decline fairly quickly right after his last title, just as when Jordan returned from retirement he wasn't what he was in '93.

[notcool]

you telling me hakkem would be the #1 player by far in today's league? give me a break.

I would choose Yao and Dwight over Hakeem......but oppps....Hakeem is already Yao plus Dwight in one body

[jaydacris]

hakeem in today's league would be fun to watch
it would be utter domination

[Odomize]

DRob was in no way, shape, or form even near the level of The Dream. Just to drive home the point, enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

So am I supposed to disregard this epic ass whooping just because you think Robinson was better against other teams and worse centers. He was thoroughly dominated man to man against Hakeem, yet you think Robinson was better? Olajuwon>>>Robinson by a lot.
:no: Paul used to do badly against Deron whenever they met. Does that mean Deron was ever > Paul?

D-Rob > Akeem

[Maniak]

I just took the time to read the Kblaze's post, and it was great.

Hakeem was a straight up beast player, and he deserves major props.

[momo]

I always thought D-Rob was the better player. Hakeem's just better when they meet head to head but against other teams, D-Rob was better.

o_O

[sunsfan1357]

But the thing is I cant find proof of if he was given 10 and the 10th was taken on later revierw or given 9 and the 10th was added on review. Ive read stories suggesting both. Not having seen the official record on paper for the night....I just call it a quadruple double because the records show it as one. But its not often acknowledged. But lets say he didnt...



[QUOTE]

[juju151111]

:no: Paul used to do badly against Deron whenever they met. Does that mean Deron was ever > Paul?

D-Rob > Akeem
yea, put Paul is clearly better.Also deron doesn't outplay him everytime. They have similar stats against each other, but the jazz always wins.Keem>drob he took a **** on him on the big stage.

[Scott Pippen]

:no: Paul used to do badly against Deron whenever they met. Does that mean Deron was ever > Paul?

D-Rob > Akeem
Shep? :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

D-Rob > Akeem

At what? I wont even argue. I just want to know what exactly he does better...and better by enough that it makes up for the number of advantages Hakeem has like reliable post scoring and clutch play.

[Qdouble]

At what? I wont even argue. I just want to know what exactly he does better...and better by enough that it makes up for the number of advantages Hakeem has like reliable post scoring and clutch play.

The only argument any rational fan can say of D-Rob (or Ewing) can say about them versus Hakeem is that they posted better winning season records in their primes (92-96). But if you look at their individual head-to-head stats, Dream completely owns them from 92-96. Plus, he had their number in the playoffs, so that's good enough for me.

[Qdouble]

Kblaze,

Appreciate your stuff. I have some pretty rare Hakeem videos/clips if you're ever thinking about making another Dream video. I've got a game with the Rocs vs the Bulls in 91 or 92 and Dream absolutely smashes a Jordan jumpshot and blocks him again, preventing the game winner.

[ronnymac]

[QUOTE=Qdouble]ronnymac, I love Dream as much as the next person, but the Rocs didn't lowball him. He said he was going to retire after the 01 season. Then at the eve of camp of the 01 season, he decided that he still wanted to play which put the Rocs in a bad spot. His skill was definitely gone by that time and his durability was in serious decline. Dream took offense that the Rocs wanted to put him out to pasture so during a game against he Knicks (after a half season of injuries and just poor output) Dream cranked it out one last time and average 15 points and 10 rebounds for the rest of the remaining games.

The Raptors were gung-ho and offered Dream a 3 year guaranteed contract worth 16-18 millions dollars at the start. The Rocs were hesitant, offering a 3 year year contract with only the first year guaranteed, before eventually offering all three years guaranteed. But by that time, Dream took offense to that and went to the Raptors. The Rocs made the right decision as tough as it was to let a legend leave.

Maybe, but i thought it was a sour way to end a relationship that gave us houstonians so much joy along the way.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Why did Hakeem only win 2 rings? And why only when Jordan left?

What happened the other years of his career? Why only the dominance those 2 years?

[Stacey King]

kobe hasn't been in his true prime since 06. PER alone means that kobe/lebron are on the same level as hakeem.if these guys are on the same plane or even better stats wise how can hakem be on a different level?mau doesn't work because he clearly isn't close to the impact player kobe/lebron are. he doesn't draw close to the same defensive attention, and unlike kobe or lebron, isnt on hakeems stratosphere as a offensive player...lebron and kobe very clearly are.per is adjusted for pace to the comparison holds.hakeem only had one season where he put up 28 ppg and only 4 seasons at more then 25 ppg.lebron and kobe are better scorers and passers and every bit as good as clutch players. hakeem was better defensively but kobe/lebron are elite there too.hakeem only really had 2 great playoff runs and those 2 dont blow away kobes 08 playoff run or his 2001 one. kobe is right there with hakeem in PER. in fact, his top 3 PER seasons (28,26.1,27.2) are better then hakeems top 3(27.3,26.0,25.0) yet hakeem is on a whole other level?:oldlol: not to mention kobes efficiency(TS%)is right there with hakeem. and isnt it interesting how hakkem led team peak wins was 55 and he only won 48 and 47 games in his absolute prime.

You can love Kobe all you want- but don't hate on Hakeem because of it.

[AirJordan23]

Why did Hakeem only win 2 rings? And why only when Jordan left?

What happened the other years of his career? Why only the dominance those 2 years?
Hakeem winning those 2 rings really shows that he was the 2nd best player of the 90s. Really, how many other greats didn't win a ring cause of Jordan (Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Ewing etc). When Jordan left, Hakeem was the one who stepped up and took charge. Winning MVP, DPOY and Finals MVP in 94. His supporting cast in 94 wasn't all that great, yet they won the finals that year defeating the Knicks in a tough, nail-biting defensive 7 game series. Hakeem didn't really have a legit 2nd option that year like he did the next year. In 95, the Rockets became the lowest seed ever (6th) to win a championship and they never had HCA, even for 1 series. Not to mention, how Hakeem schooled Robinson and Shaq. And they made the finals in 1986 only to lose to one of the greatest teams in NBA history, the Celtics. It was a great match up between 2 of the best post players in McHale and Hakeem.

It would've been great to see a Rockets/Bulls finals. It might've happened in 1997 had they called Malone's illegal screen to let Stockton hit the gamewinner. Who knows what would've happened in OT? The Rockets and Bulls were really evenly matched.

[ExtremeHops]

It would've been great to see a Rockets/Bulls finals. It might've happened in 1997 had they called Malone's illegal screen to let Stockton hit the gamewinner. Who knows what would've happened in OT? The Rockets and Bulls were really evenly matched.

Would have been a great, great match up, throwing up a number of compelling head to heads:

Hakeem vs Jordan
Drexler vs Pippen
Barkley vs Rodman

One of my biggest regrets in watching bball, as this was the DREAM final

[Rockets(T-mac)]

Hakeem was ridiculous...straight up beast. He could do it all, I think it will be while before we see anyone close to his skill set again.

[ExtremeHops]

For me the greatest centre of all time (never saw Kareem though). More skilful than Shaq and dominated him in the 95 finals, where the Rockets swept the Magic (admittedly Shaq wasn't at his peak). Shaq was arguably more dominant with the Lakers, but the calibre of opposition in the finals (and especially at the C position) was no where near as tough as that Hakeem encountered.

Hakeem had to face DRob, Ewing and Shaq on the way to his titles....and each time he came on top in the individual match ups. My favourite player of all-time, and the second greatest player in the 90s.

[Dizzle-2k7]

What happened between 86 and 94? Its almost like Hakeem didnt exist.

[Maniak]

Wait, 243354 is saying that because of PER LeBron and Kobe are just as good as Hakeem?

What is ISH coming to?!

[Maniak]

no im saying both are on the same level.

Oh.

Thats still stupid bro, but I guess thats what happens when you have never seen Hakeem play...

[Kblaze8855]

kobe hasn't been in his true prime since 06. PER alone means that kobe/lebron are on the same level as hakeem.if these guys are on the same plane or even better stats wise how can hakem be on a different level?mau doesn't work because he clearly isn't close to the impact player kobe/lebron are. he doesn't draw close to the same defensive attention, and unlike kobe or lebron, isnt on hakeems stratosphere as a offensive player...lebron and kobe very clearly are

So explain to me....Manu isnt anywhere near these guys in impact...but PER says hes on that level....why? Does that not prove PER is flawed on its own? You disagree with PER when its convient but it determines ability when you feel like it does? THe formula doesnt change. It should matter or not matter. Not be the main factor when you like its results and be dismissed when you dont.

[Maniak]

so hakem is by far better then kobe/lebron?:roll:

Yep.

[Maniak]

I love making Laker fans insecure!

[Kblaze8855]

per is a measure of productivity not impact. i used per because both lebron/kobe have a tremendous impact on games and are on a similar level( perhaps better ) to hakeem in box-score contribution.therefore the combination makes them on the same level.

So manu last year was more productive than Kobe and Dwight Howard? Per = production. Manu was 7th in per. Kobe 8th. Howard 11. Explain why I should care.

Once you acknowledge that production according to PER and actual impact arent the same....why then do I need to rank anyone using it?

[Qdouble]

What happened between 86 and 94? Its almost like Hakeem didnt exist.

The short version: After the Finals, Rocs were thought to become a powerhouse team. Unfortunately, Sampson gets injured and never recovers. But Sampson's downfall leads to Hakeem's greatness, the game against Seattle in the playoffs in which he scored 49 points and grabbed 25 rebounds against some double and triple teams. An absolutely amazing game.

Unfortunately, Rocket starters started falling off the map, either retiring to be a preacher or caught doing coke. Sampson was traded and Hakeem got a bunch of scrubs from from the late 80s to early 90s.

But here's what I define a true superstar. He was surrounded by scrubs but still managed to take them to the playoffs, except for one year where he was still adjusting his game after recovering from a broken eye socket.

That's why I started getting a little down on KG and Piece a few years back. If they were such great players, they could have least eked into the playoffs when they were the leader of their teams, but they didn't. But then Boston got them together, and they got a ring, so I can't say anything bad about that.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Hakeem was incredible. He's the most underrated player of all time. I just can't believe it when people say Duncan is better than him.

[drza44]

Hakeem was outstanding. But I disagree that he is on another level of the players today. At different points in this decade, I think Duncan, Shaq, KG, and LeBron have all played at the same level as Hakeem's peak level at different points. That's no diss on Hakeem, it's simply saying that the previous generations don't have a monopoly on greatness.

As for the PER argument that has been on-going, I find myself in an interesting predicament. I don't love PER as a stat, and hate it when someone uses it as the whole of their argument. On the other hand, I don't believe that all advanced stats should be swept under the blanket because they are sometimes used incorrectly. With PER, it has some definite and obvious weaknesses: it does not measure defense well, it does not measure impact at all, and it does not in any way correct for teammates or team circumstances.

By itself, the fact that it fails to adequately correct for defense makes PER a poor way to compare Olajuwon with Kobe. As a historically good defensive big man, Hakeem's impact on that side of the ball absolutely HAS to be incorporated into any statistical comparison. And there are enough other advanced stats besides PER (that seek to incorporate both offense and defense) to indicate that Kobe at his best had trouble delievering the impact of Olajuwon. While '06 Kobe's PER (28) and Win Shares (15.4) were similar to Hakeem's 27.3 PER and 15.4 win shares, when you start looking beyond there it gets bleak for him. Hakeem had the same offensive rating (114) but blew him away in defense rating (96 vs 105). Hakeem blew him away in Wins produced (26.8 wins produced, .397 WP48) vs. Kobe's 14.3 wins produced, .209 WP48. And just keeping it simple, Olajuwon's '93 Rockets had 10 more wins and went further in the playoffs than Bryant's '06 Lakers without an immediately obvious difference in supporting cast level.

The thing is, going further in depth like that with the others I mentioned (Duncan, KG, Shaq, LeBron) all shows that they seem to compare favorably to Olajuwon. So while I don't agree that one can just look at PER and make a conclusion...in fact, I don't agree that anyone should make a conclusion PURELY off of stats, no matter how good they are...I do believe that getting enough of a cross section of stats, when mixed with personal observation, can start to tell an interesting story. And to me, the story I get about Hakeem is that he was amazing and almost super-human...but that there have been others since him that are amazing as well.

[Gingereffic]

He was a monster. And while you knew that...you dont take the time to praise it as you should.

I wont bother with talking about his skills which we should all be well aware of. With all the recent talk of stats and which stats are more impressive and the nationwide polls and so on......I am going to give you a selection of Hakeems best games....not from his career. And not even from one season. But one month. March of 1990....

First let me say that the last day of the previous month?

37/25 and 5 blocks

And when march started....

March the first. 41/14/7 blocks and 4 assists vs the Suns. Next game he put up 29 points...18 rebounds....11 blocks...10 assists...and 5 steals. Next game was 37 and 14 with 4 blocks and 3 steals vs David robinson. Next game? Lakers got 27/14/8/4/3.

After that he "cooled off" a little bit with a stretch of...

30/8/5/3/1 14 of 19 shooting
25/16 8 blocks and 3 steals.
25 points 19 rebounds 6 assists 4 blocks and 3 steals
17/22/8 blocks and 4 steals.
19/12 6 blocks. His worst game of the month maybe.

That continues on for a while. 20/20 game in there. 27/18 game. You know.

And right after the 28/18 game came a game that many are aware of. His quadruple double. I already posted his quad double you say? Well....it seems I only posted one of them from that month. you see Hakeem was in retrospect either given a 10th assist in the game vs the warriors on march 3rd or denied the 10th he was given to begin with. The NBA doesnt consider it an "official" quadruple double since it took a review and is questionable. But they in fact list it in his game logs. go check. Any site featuring game logs from 1990 includes Hakeem getting 2 quadruple doubles in March.

But the thing is I cant find proof of if he was given 10 and the 10th was taken on later revierw or given 9 and the 10th was added on review. Ive read stories suggesting both. Not having seen the official record on paper for the night....I just call it a quadruple double because the records show it as one. But its not often acknowledged. But lets say he didnt...

He had 29/18/11/9/5 one game that month and the usually credited quad double with 18/16/11/10 latrer.

Anyway after a pedestrian 24/16/5/5/2 to end the month with an average of 26/15 and 6 blocks he goes into April where the highlights include games with 34/19 and 52/18 vs Mutombo. All part of a season where he averaged 24/14 with 5 blocks and 2 steals a game.

Which I guess would be more impressive if he didnt put up 25/14 with 3 steals and 3 blocks a game the season before that. Which was the season after he got knocked out of the playoffs despite a 49/25/7 block elimination game. Which is all part of an 11 year run where he put up a rounded off 2 steals and 2 blocks a game over that decade plus....while somehow still being a better defender than those numbers suggest...and being a better offensive player than the numbers suggest....and a waaaaaaaaaaay better passer than his assists suggest though he did get up to about 4 a game which for a center is rare.

And yes I know drob also had some wicked stat lines in that same basic time period....but Drob lost all rights to being praised in the presence of Hakeem in 1995 when he was"Just...bamboozled". They never should have handed out that MVP in front of Hakeem....

Point?

Dont really have one. But I dont think Hakeem praise needs a point. For all the Lebron/Kobe talk about great statlines? give me like 3 of his from just March and April alone over anything they have done this year. Im gonna eventually give him a more complete video but for now this ond one will do...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDBYWCwAN2o

Slightly better quality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDBYWCwAN2o&fmt=18

It gets what little point I do have across. that point being...Hakeem is a bad mother****er. Maybe we should let some of these modern guys catch Hakeem before we even start talking about catching Jordan. None of them are even that close to Dream in his prime. I think you should prove greater than the apostles before you are in the running for next Jesus....





I have to agree , I would take the dream over either kobe or lebron. And in this league it would be even easier because there are only a few 7fters. Hakeem was a center with Kobe type footwork and possibly the best defensive player in the last 30 years. Though MJ is right there with Hakeem...::cheers:

[Simple Jack]

After reading all the "Kobe is already better than the dream" talk especially from Fatal9, I had to bump this thread.

[magnax1]

I'd definitely take Kobe or maybe Lebron over Hakeem. Just look at what Kobe did in 05, then look at what hakeem did with some better teams.
Hakeem's team in 92-
Otis thorpe 17 ppg 10 rpg all star
Vernon Maxwell- 17ppg 4 apg
kenny smith- 14ppg 7apg
Record 42-40 miss the playoffs (one thing that really stands out about hakeem is he was never anywhere near his supestar level on offense until rudy tomjanovich came, though I didn't start watching until 95, so maybe his stats just don't show the whole story on offense)
Kobe in 06, we probably all know, his teams three best players were Odom, Chris Mihm and Smush Parker. His team got 45 wins and went to the playoffs. Hakeem was great, but his teams were not just a bunch of scrubs on his championship runs, like people often times say.
EDIT: and then compare Kobe's 09 team with Hakeem's 97 team. Pretty similar in talent, but the results were quite different.

[zizozain]

2009

[Stringer Bell]

Hakeem was pretty amazing.

He was already the best center in the NBA in his 2nd season. Kareem got 1st team all-NBA at center in 1985-86 (averaging 6 rebounds per game as a center) ahead of Olajuwon, but after the postseason it was clear that young Akeem was the top center in the game. He was clearly the best center for the next 3 seasons.

The late 80s and early 90s were closer with Ewing coming into his own, Robinson entering the league, Shaq entering the league in 92', and Olajuwon having issues with management and injuries one year too. But the 1992-93 season he was the best center again, and 1993-94 was when he won regular season MVP, finals MVP, and DPOY in the same year. And really, the difference in the finals was how badly he outplayed Ewing. Everyone remembers John Starks on game 7, but he still ended up putting better offensive stats than Ewing. Both Houston and NY had streaky backcourts, but NY's was more productive throughout the series. Cassell had like one good game, Smith played lousy.

Ewing got a lot of blocks but so did Hakeem. Hakeem outscored Ewing by a lot and was MUCH more efficient. Ewing couldn't hit anything nor could he get to the line. So many of the games were close, and it came down to Hakeem simply outplaying Ewing.

D-Rob winning the regular season MVP for 1994-95 wasn't an injustice. Hakeem has said Robinson deserved it and he was using that as extra motivation to play better. It's not that Hakeem didn't have a great regular season, but both Robinson and Shaq had equally great regular seasons, for teams that performed much better than Houston did (they only went 47-35).

Hakeem made Robinson look silly and annihilated him. Shaq actually played well, but he couldn't get as much help from his team as Hakeem did from his. Hakeem didn't get much help offensively from his teammates the previous finals against the Knicks (better D) but he did against the Magic.

[sd3035]

He was a monster. And while you knew that...you dont take the time to praise it as you should.

I wont bother with talking about his skills which we should all be well aware of. With all the recent talk of stats and which stats are more impressive and the nationwide polls and so on......I am going to give you a selection of Hakeems best games....not from his career. And not even from one season. But one month. March of 1990....

First let me say that the last day of the previous month?

37/25 and 5 blocks

And when march started....

March the first. 41/14/7 blocks and 4 assists vs the Suns. Next game he put up 29 points...18 rebounds....11 blocks...10 assists...and 5 steals. Next game was 37 and 14 with 4 blocks and 3 steals vs David robinson. Next game? Lakers got 27/14/8/4/3.

After that he "cooled off" a little bit with a stretch of...

30/8/5/3/1 14 of 19 shooting
25/16 8 blocks and 3 steals.
25 points 19 rebounds 6 assists 4 blocks and 3 steals
17/22/8 blocks and 4 steals.
19/12 6 blocks. His worst game of the month maybe.

That continues on for a while. 20/20 game in there. 27/18 game. You know.

And right after the 28/18 game came a game that many are aware of. His quadruple double. I already posted his quad double you say? Well....it seems I only posted one of them from that month. you see Hakeem was in retrospect either given a 10th assist in the game vs the warriors on march 3rd or denied the 10th he was given to begin with. The NBA doesnt consider it an "official" quadruple double since it took a review and is questionable. But they in fact list it in his game logs. go check. Any site featuring game logs from 1990 includes Hakeem getting 2 quadruple doubles in March.

But the thing is I cant find proof of if he was given 10 and the 10th was taken on later revierw or given 9 and the 10th was added on review. Ive read stories suggesting both. Not having seen the official record on paper for the night....I just call it a quadruple double because the records show it as one. But its not often acknowledged. But lets say he didnt...

He had 29/18/11/9/5 one game that month and the usually credited quad double with 18/16/11/10 latrer.

Anyway after a pedestrian 24/16/5/5/2 to end the month with an average of 26/15 and 6 blocks he goes into April where the highlights include games with 34/19 and 52/18 vs Mutombo. All part of a season where he averaged 24/14 with 5 blocks and 2 steals a game.

Which I guess would be more impressive if he didnt put up 25/14 with 3 steals and 3 blocks a game the season before that. Which was the season after he got knocked out of the playoffs despite a 49/25/7 block elimination game. Which is all part of an 11 year run where he put up a rounded off 2 steals and 2 blocks a game over that decade plus....while somehow still being a better defender than those numbers suggest...and being a better offensive player than the numbers suggest....and a waaaaaaaaaaay better passer than his assists suggest though he did get up to about 4 a game which for a center is rare.

And yes I know drob also had some wicked stat lines in that same basic time period....but Drob lost all rights to being praised in the presence of Hakeem in 1995 when he was"Just...bamboozled". They never should have handed out that MVP in front of Hakeem....

Point?

Dont really have one. But I dont think Hakeem praise needs a point. For all the Lebron/Kobe talk about great statlines? give me like 3 of his from just March and April alone over anything they have done this year. Im gonna eventually give him a more complete video but for now this ond one will do...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDBYWCwAN2o

Slightly better quality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDBYWCwAN2o&fmt=18

It gets what little point I do have across. that point being...Hakeem is a bad mother****er. Maybe we should let some of these modern guys catch Hakeem before we even start talking about catching Jordan. None of them are even that close to Dream in his prime. I think you should prove greater than the apostles before you are in the running for next Jesus....

quad double and 5x5 with 29 points :applause: :applause: :applause: