Is Kobe the Biggest Choker in Finals History?

[Gingereffic]

My conclusion is that he is in the running. Plenty of guys have played bad in one finals, some guys had even played poorly in two finals but Kobe has been pretty bad in 4 of 5 Finals he has played in. So far his shooting percentages have been 37 percent vs Indiana while Marc Jackson was guarding him. He shot 40 percent vs the Sixers the following year, then had a very good showing vs the Nets and shot around 50 percent. But here comes the ones that really put Kobe in a league all his own. Kobe shot and single handedly gave my Pistons the 2004 title. 37 percent shooting for kobe while Shaq shot around 65 Percent for the series... In 2008 THE Lakers were again in the Finals and Kobe shot a 40 percent. :hammertime:

[kidachi]

:oldlol: be ready to be flamed by the Kobe fanboys.

anyway. here's one.

Dennis Johnson shot like 0-13 in Game7 of the '79 finals.

[jaydacris]

i see its that time of the year.. i mean month.. i mean week... i mean day.

[Gingereffic]

be ready to be flamed.


Dennis Johnson shot like 0-13 in Game7 of the '79 finals.



Wow you remember that game. Credit to you my friend. Though johnson didn't choke in 4 of five finals.. Not a bad answer but not something you can use... Good try though. I watched that game.. :hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

:oldlol: be ready to be flamed by the Kobe fanboys.

anyway. here's one.

Dennis Johnson shot like 0-13 in Game7 of the '79 finals.



Please no flaming just good answers. If someone can come up with a guy who choked in more finals than I will forever stop saying Kobe is the biggest choker in finals' history. Cool.. Now give me a name.. Remember the guy had to have played in a couple of finals to even come close to KOBE...:pimp:

[Sanity]

i see its that time of the year.. i mean month.. i mean week... i mean day.


:roll:

[Kombo]

Nick Anderson

[DonDadda59]

Yeah, as far as stars go, no one has had as many awful performances as Kobe. If it wasn't for Shaq, aka the Big Eraser of KB's ****ty finals showings, kobe has 0 rings. As far as single game, I nominate John Starks game 7 vs Houston.

[kidachi]

Nick Anderson

oh men that was awful.. I read somewhere that it affected his whole career.. in terms of shooting FTs..

[Gingereffic]

Nick Anderson



Decent answer and he has to be up their for his missing 4 straight frees... That is just a no no.. But comeon he messed up in one series. Not four...GOOD ANSWER..:hammertime:

[Lakers13]

Your boy against the Spurs.

[Gingereffic]

Your boy against the Spurs.


Lebron is a choker just like kobe but he has only been in one final and has not played with great teammates. So while he is a choker he can't be close to Kobe who has choked with some of the best players ever by his side. Lebron's best teammate has been Z . :hammertime:

[jrong]

Well, Kobe won two of those four Finals, so I don't think half of that total are even worth discussing. He was pretty bad in the Pistons series, but I would call his play last year "mediocre" rather than bad because that same Celtics defense held LeBron to 35% shooting and forced him into 6 TOs/game.

But, my award for the biggest Finals flop by a superstar player goes once again to LeBron James, chiming in (once again) with 35% shooting and 6 TOs....

[Gingereffic]

Well, Kobe won two of those four Finals, so I don't think half of that total are even worh discussing. He was pretty bad in the Pistons series, but I would call his play last year "mediocre" rather than bad because that same Celtics defense held LeBron to 35% shooting and forced him into 6 TOs/game.

But, my award for the biggest Finals flop by a superstar player goes once again to LeBron James, chiming in (once again) with 35% shooting and 6 TOs....



Hmm, Kobe won two finals. I don't remember Kobe ever playing well vs a east opponent in the finals. Well the nets but shessh I would score on them. TRY AGAIN.. Lebron is also in the running but Kobe is just way ahead of him at this time... :hammertime:

[jrong]

Hmm, Kobe won two finals. I don't remember Kobe ever playing well vs a east opponent in the finals. Well the nets but shessh I would score on them. TRY AGAIN.. Lebron is also in the running but Kobe is just way ahead of him at this time... :hammertime:

True, but it's not a choke if you end up winning. And I would say LeBron's one poor losing Finals were worse than both of Kobe's bad losing ones, so maybe that makes them even then.

[spursdynasty420]

it least kobe didnt get swept like lebron did

[KGBigTicket21MVP]

My conclusion is that he is in the running. Plenty of guys have played bad in one finals, some guys had even played poorly in two finals but Kobe has been pretty bad in 4 of 5 Finals he has played in. So far his shooting percentages have been 37 percent vs Indiana while Marc Jackson was guarding him. He shot 40 percent vs the Sixers the following year, then had a very good showing vs the Nets and shot around 50 percent. But here comes the ones that really put Kobe in a league all his own. Kobe shot and single handedly gave my Pistons the 2004 title. 37 percent shooting for kobe while Shaq shot around 65 Percent for the series... In 2008 THE Lakers were again in the Finals and Kobe shot a 40 percent. :hammertime:
To answer your question. Both Kobe and LeBron are both the biggest chokers in NBA Finals history. And that's the truth.

[B-Easy]

anybody have his stats for all his Finals games?

[DonDadda59]

Too bad Lebron never had Shaq to dominate the opposition and post historic numbers despite Bron's crap performance ala Kobe's many. But people, let's not forget... John Starks, that killed NYC.

[Gingereffic]

To answer your question. Both Kobe and LeBron are both the biggest chokers in NBA Finals history. And that's the truth.



Right now Kobe is far ahead of lebron but I would not be surprised if Lebron tried to imitate his friend Kobe... Wade is the man... :hammertime:

[sonicman]

But people, let's not forget... John Starks, that killed NYC.

Against the Rockets?

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

low life mother fcuker....take ur fcuking troll somewhere else....

[DonDadda59]

Against the Rockets?

Yup, cost the Knicks the 'chip in Game 7. And Wade doesn't get enough credit for anything he does. Lebron and Kobe tear up the ****test teams the league has to offer but are mediocre at best against elite competition, which is why neither has shown up in both of their head to heads. And while we're on the subject, why does kobe ALWAYS come down w/ some injury or sickness whenever he plays Lebron? But Dwade has a 'chip and Finals MVP in one series, even though Kobe played in 5 series he has no MVPs and is 0-2 w/o Shaq (0-3 as the main option/shotjacker), Lebron swept but he had no help and was only 21 so the jury's still out on him, we'll see if he's truly great or just reg. season great like jelly bean.

[dazed27]

My conclusion is that he is in the running. Plenty of guys have played bad in one finals, some guys had even played poorly in two finals but Kobe has been pretty bad in 4 of 5 Finals he has played in. So far his shooting percentages have been 37 percent vs Indiana while Marc Jackson was guarding him. He shot 40 percent vs the Sixers the following year, then had a very good showing vs the Nets and shot around 50 percent. But here comes the ones that really put Kobe in a league all his own. Kobe shot and single handedly gave my Pistons the 2004 title. 37 percent shooting for kobe while Shaq shot around 65 Percent for the series... In 2008 THE Lakers were again in the Finals and Kobe shot a 40 percent. :hammertime:

how did he choke 4 out of 5 finals.....dumbest thing ive heard......according to the results he has succeding 3 out of 5 finals....

damn this guy is the best at the moment but he is not god......

get off his pelotos mi amigo...yo se que queres cojerlo pero horita no!!!!

haha how is it a choke.... i would look at him as a joke if he never had succes in the play offs..

vete a la chingada

[iggy>]

lets not forget that kobe has 3 titles, and though he wasnt the best player on those teams, he was vital to their success. hes not a loser/choker by any means.

[KGBigTicket21MVP]

Right now Kobe is far ahead of lebron but I would not be surprised if Lebron tried to imitate his friend Kobe... Wade is the man... :hammertime:
Wade can't do it without Shaq.

[chopchop20]

A choker with 3 rimgs? Ummm yeah... that makes sense :rolleyes:

[VCMVP1551]

I remember Starks choking, I was a huge Ewing fan at the time. Ewing couldn't consistently hit a shot that series, but he was excellent blocking shots and rebounding plus he did play Olajuwon pretty tough and was able to hold Hakeem under his season averages in points and FG%. Obviously Hakeem outplayed Patrick, but Ewing was pretty good that series.

Anderson was worse though. He missed FOUR straight free throws, he needed ONE to seal the game. They got swept that series. Who knows what would have happened if Anderson hits a free throw. I've always thought that Orlando would have had atleast as good of a chance as Houston at winning that series if not for Anderson choking. If they do then maybe Shaq would have never left and Orlando could have had a dynasty. I know that's a lot of ifs but Anderson choking may have caused all of that.

Kobe being a choker is a myth too.

In 2000 he was a solid role player in the finals and with Shaq averaging 38/17/3/2/61% did he really need to be anything more? I'll break it down game by game.

In game 1 of the 2000 Finals Kobe did an excellent job on reggie Miller defensively limiting him to 1/16 shooting and just 7 points. Kobe in return had 14 points, 5 boards and a couple of blocks on a respectable 6-13 from the floor. I'd say that outscoring your counterpart and the other team's star by 7 points on 3 less shots is pretty damn solid. With Shaq putting up 41 points, 19 boards and 4 blocks, Kobe didn't need to do anything more than he did. In fact him shooting as little as he did probably helped because of how good Shaq was that game.

In game 2 he got injured after only 9 minutes so we can't really judge him in game 2.

He sat out game 3

In game 4 he played like a superstar scoring 28 points on 52% shooting while handing out 5 assists. Of course who could forget him hitting clutch shot after clutch shot in the 4th quarter and OT after Shaq fouled out. Kobe may have saved the series with his play in overtime.

In game 5 he was truly horrendous shooting 4-20 and scoring just 8 points as the Lakers got blown out by 33.

In game 6 he struggled quite a bit shooting 8-27, but he did have 10 boards and a couple of blocks. However shooting 8-27 is pretty bad especially with Shaq scoring 41 points.

So in 2 out of 4 games he played very well. One of the games saved the series and the Lakers won so that's the tiebreaker. So no he didn't choke in 2000. Plus he was solid for the entire playoffs.

In 2001 he did struggle with his shot shooting 42%, but that's not horrible, especially against a great defensive team like Philly. Plus he contributed with 25 points per game, 8 rebounds and 6 assists. In game 4 he was 1 assist shy of a triple double and he averaged.

He also did a good job on Iverson defensively. While AI averaged 35.6 ppg, he needed 32.4 shots per game to do it. And that's not even counting free throws! Iverson shot just 40.7% in the series, part of that was probably because of Bryant's defense. Iverson also averaged only 3.8 assists so he wasn't really getting his teammates involved either, part of that was because Kobe made Iverson take a lot of shots to get his points. The way he made Iverson work for his points and not get his teammates involved was pretty much all Phil Jackson could have possibly hoped for defensively.

So pretty much that series Kobe did everything very well except for his shooting % was a little low, but 42% against a top defensive team isn't embarrassing by any stretch. besides Shaq was dominating again averaging 33/16/5 as well as 3 and a half blocks per game. So they didn't need Kobe to be a dominant scorer, but his 25 point scoring average certainly wasn't bad. And once again the Lakers won the series in 5 games.

Then I have to mention what Kobe did that entire playoff run. Of course he had those back to back 40 point games, but for the 2001 playoffs he averaged over 29, 7 and 6 while shooting 47%. Shaq was still the best player in the playoffs averaging over 30 and 15, but you could argue that Kobe was better than Shaq in one or two series. Kobe was the second best player in the playoffs that year, he had an outstanding playoff run. His play was legendary that postseason.

As you mentioned he was excellent in 2002, and I won't deny that he was terrible in the 2004 finals.

Now 2008....while he didn't play very well in his defense he had to go up against one of the best defensive teams in recent years with no help from his teammates. Only 1 time did any of his teammates score 20 points in a game that series and that was just Lamar Odom who scored 20 even. So as a result the Celtics could double and triple Kobe all they wanted because none of his teammates were hitting shots. So I'm not sure that I'd call that choking, especially since the Lakers did atleast take Boston to 6 games despite Boston having homecourt advantage. The Lakers frontline also got murdered by Boston's inside which has nothing to do with Kobe. That may have been the key to the series. I personally wouldn't call his 2008 finals performance choking. He didn't even have the luxuary of having 1 teammate who averaged 15 ppg.

Kobe has 3 championships for a reason, calling him the biggest choker in finals history is laughable.

[OldSchoolBBall]

In 2001 he did struggle with his shot shooting 42%, but that's not horrible, especially against a great defensive team like Philly.

Vince Carter, as the focus of the defense (unlike Kobe), averaged 31+/7/6/47% vs. Philly that same postseason.

[VCMVP1551]

Vince Carter, as the focus of the defense (unlike Kobe), averaged 31+/7/6/47% vs. Philly that same postseason.

Yeah, but that wasn't exactly an average series that Vince had. It's true that Vince played much better than Kobe against Philly, but that doesn't mean Kobe choked. Kobe still played well in the 2001 finals and helped the Lakers win in 5, which isn't choking.

[chopchop20]

Yeah, but that wasn't exactly an average series that Vince had. It's true that Vince played much better than Kobe against Philly, but that doesn't mean Kobe choked. Kobe still played well in the 2001 finals and helped the Lakers win in 5, which isn't choking.

Some people act like the playoff games leaing up to the finals don't count. Kobe and Shaq set the record for most points by a duo in 2001.

Kobe was the closer then as he is now. He single-handily beat the Spurs one year, killing them in 4th quarters. Dude had numerous big time performances during the 3-peat.

[VCMVP1551]

Some people act like the playoff games leaing up to the finals don't count. Kobe and Shaq set the record for most points by a duo in 2001.

Kobe was the closer then as he is now. He single-handily beat the Spurs one year, killing them in 4th quarters. Dude had numerous big time performances during the 3-peat.

Yeah as I posted he averaged over 29, 7 and 6 during the 2001 finals and he shot 47% during that playoff run. Shaq was better each and every year, but Kobe was still winning titles with a role as prominent as you can have without being the first option in 2001 and 2002.

[dazed27]

Yeah, but that wasn't exactly an average series that Vince had. It's true that Vince played much better than Kobe against Philly, but that doesn't mean Kobe choked. Kobe still played well in the 2001 finals and helped the Lakers win in 5, which isn't choking.


amen.....

[U got Served]

Yeah as I posted he averaged over 29, 7 and 6 during the 2001 finals and he shot 47% during that playoff run. Shaq was better each and every year, but Kobe was still winning titles with a role as prominent as you can have without being the first option in 2001 and 2002.

I like your avatar.

[chopchop20]

Explain how these stats = choking

http://www.lakersuniverse.com/kobe/kobe_bryant_stats200001.htm

[west]

I like your avatar.
same here,repped:rockon:

[Scott Pippen]

Some people act like the playoff games leaing up to the finals don't count. Kobe and Shaq set the record for most points by a duo in 2001.

Kobe was the closer then as he is now. He single-handily beat the Spurs one year, killing them in 4th quarters. Dude had numerous big time performances during the 3-peat.
Of course. :applause:

I think it was Game 1 or 2 at San Antonio he killed them for 45 pts. But Games 3 & 4 was a joke. They beat the Spurs those two games by 39 pts & 29 pts. And as good as Shaq/Kobe were that spring, I remember D. Fisher was burning hot from the 3 pt line.

Also excellent post from VCMVP on the previous page :applause:

[YAWN]

why is this sh*t for brains moron allowed to make threads?

[chopchop20]

Of course. :applause:

I think it was Game 1 or 2 at San Antonio he killed them for 45 pts. But Games 3 & 4 was a joke. They beat the Spurs those two games by 39 pts & 29 pts. And as good as Shaq/Kobe were that spring, I remember D. Fisher was burning hot from the 3 pt line.

Also excellent post from VCMVP on the previous page :applause:

Yeah, Fox, Horry, and Ron Harper too. I've never seen a team shot that well in the playoffs before or since. Should have went undefeated (Philly stole Game 1)

[OldSchoolBBall]

I wouldn't call Kobe a Finals "choker," which has a specific negative connotation, but I would say that he's probably the player ranked the highest on all-time lists who has played the worst in the Finals relative to his average play. That's pretty much indisputable. The only guys ranked above him all played much better or closer to their average level of play in a greater percentage of their Finals appearances than he has. Unless I'm forgetting someone:

MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russell
Hakeem
West
Duncan
Oscar
Dr. J
Moses
Pettit
Baylor
K. Malone

Those are the guys definitely above Kobe right now imo. Then you also have guys who are arguably above him, like Barkley/Barry/Hondo/Isiah/DRob. As far as I know, none of them have played as far below their general level in as great a percentage of their Finals appearances as Kobe has. Whether that makes him a "choker" or not is up for debate.

[PierceISTruth]

gingerrrific=poodlebark :confusedshrug:

[crisoner]

why is this sh*t for brains moron allowed to make threads?


wondering the same thing...it should be deleted

dumb thread obviously made to take personal jabs at one player should be deleted.
Especially when that player start with a K or an L.

[VCMVP1551]

Also excellent post from VCMVP on the previous page :applause:

Thanks :cheers:

Also I wouldn't put a lot of those guys you mentioned ahead of Kobe OldSchool.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Thanks :cheers:

Also I wouldn't put a lot of those guys you mentioned ahead of Kobe OldSchool.

In terms of career? Only one or two from the main list are arguable, really.

[VCMVP1551]

In terms of career? Only one or two from the main list are arguable, really.

Well if we're talking NBA career then I defintley wouldn't put Dr. J over Kobe.

West, the Mailman, Pettit, Baylor, Oscar and Moses are arguable.

[gpfanz]

Kobe only went to the Finals "once" & u want to label him the biggest choker? :D

[chopchop20]

I wouldn't call Kobe a Finals "choker," which has a specific negative connotation, but I would say that he's probably the player ranked the highest on all-time lists who has played the worst in the Finals relative to his average play. That's pretty much indisputable. The only guys ranked above him all played much better or closer to their average level of play in a greater percentage of their Finals appearances than he has. Unless I'm forgetting someone:

MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russell
Hakeem
West
Duncan
Oscar
Dr. J
Moses
Pettit
Baylor
K. Malone

Those are the guys definitely above Kobe right now imo. Then you also have guys who are arguably above him, like Barkley/Barry/Hondo/Isiah/DRob. As far as I know, none of them have played as far below their general level in as great a percentage of their Finals appearances as Kobe has. Whether that makes him a "choker" or not is up for debate.

Look at the number of big men on this list. I don't think you can compare a guard to a center because those guys are taking higher percentage shots, better opportunities for rebounds.

[gotbacon23]

earl monroe should be considered. he played in 3 finals:
1971 (as a bullet vs the bucks)
1972 (as a knick vs the lakers)
1973 (as a knick vs the lakers again)

earl monroe choked big time in the 1971 finals when the bullets got the beat down from the bucks: 16.3 ppg 4.0 rpg 4.0 apg on 34% shooting after he averaged 21 ppg in the regular season.

1972 when he was a Knick he averaged 6.8 ppg o 27.9% shooting in the finals vs the lakers.

1973 he redeemed himself a little bit: 16 ppg on 54% shooting

so 2 out of 3 finals he did horribly, and he never even came close to his career regular season averages in the finals. of course his teams lost the two finals in which he did horribly and won the finals which he did pretty well

someone prior mentioned dennis johnson, and if we only count 1978 i would agree. the last two games of that series he shot a combined 4-30 as seattle gave up a 3-2 series lead to lose the series 4-3. but if we go based on career finals apprance, he can't seriously be considered as he won mvp of the 1979 finals, then played very well in the 1984, 85, 86, and 87 finals.

karl malone also should be considered. he played well in spurts, but his mental lapses could have cost the jazz a ring. in 1997 game one, he missed two free throws in a row with about 10-15 seconds left in game then MJ proceeded to win the game at the buzzer. in game 5 (the flu game), the bulls took the lead by 3 on Jordan's 3, then the jazz got a quick dunk to go down by 1. the next play the jazz HAD to foul. malone had 5 fouls, but its no excuse... he had a HUGE chance to foul very early into the play but he elected not to, the bulls took off valuable seconds and then luc longley got an uncontested dunk. in game 6, he shot 7 for 15 from the free throw line as the jazz lost by 4. malone was not a bad free throw shooter but he definitley choked at the line in that series. for that series he shot 44% from the field and 60% from the line... not terrible but considering during that regular season he shot 55% percent and 76% from the line.

he played a lot better in 1998, but also had the turnover in game 6 that led to MJ's game winning shot.

[JJ81]

Kobe's 3-2 in the finals :confusedshrug:

[Gingereffic]

lets not forget that kobe has 3 titles, and though he wasnt the best player on those teams, he was vital to their success. hes not a loser/choker by any means.



Robert Horry has 7 titles and a very vital player but Kobe did have more to do with the three titles. Kobe needs to get his game straight vs top competition. KOBE ALWAYS SICK WHEN HE PLAYS LEBRON OR WADE... ANOTHER TRUTH... Lebron bricks his free throws, another truth , Wade comes up bigger than both is big games. Another truth...:hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

Kobe's 3-2 in the finals :confusedshrug:



Kobe is 3-0 with the most dominant center of this generation. And Kobe is 0-2 when Kobe tried to be the man. Kobe singlehandedly lost that finals in 2004 vs My Great Piston team. Phil Jackson blamed Kobe for that loss in his book... :lol :hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

:lol
hell no. guy only has 1 bad finals performance and hes won 3 of the 5 finals hes been in.dont hate.
hes had finals of 28/6/5/3,26/6/6/2,25/7/6/2,.:oldlol: at this thread.


lets see 37 percent, 40 percent, 37 percent and another 40 percent in 2008. He did have one good finals in 02 vs that great Nets team. :lol

[Gingereffic]

earl monroe should be considered. he played in 3 finals:
1971 (as a bullet vs the bucks)
1972 (as a knick vs the lakers)
1973 (as a knick vs the lakers again)

earl monroe choked big time in the 1971 finals when the bullets got the beat down from the bucks: 16.3 ppg 4.0 rpg 4.0 apg on 34% shooting after he averaged 21 ppg in the regular season.

1972 when he was a Knick he averaged 6.8 ppg o 27.9% shooting in the finals vs the lakers.

1973 he redeemed himself a little bit: 16 ppg on 54% shooting

so 2 out of 3 finals he did horribly, and he never even came close to his career regular season averages in the finals. of course his teams lost the two finals in which he did horribly and won the finals which he did pretty well

someone prior mentioned dennis johnson, and if we only count 1978 i would agree. the last two games of that series he shot a combined 4-30 as seattle gave up a 3-2 series lead to lose the series 4-3. but if we go based on career finals apprance, he can't seriously be considered as he won mvp of the 1979 finals, then played very well in the 1984, 85, 86, and 87 finals.

karl malone also should be considered. he played well in spurts, but his mental lapses could have cost the jazz a ring. in 1997 game one, he missed two free throws in a row with about 10-15 seconds left in game then MJ proceeded to win the game at the buzzer. in game 5 (the flu game), the bulls took the lead by 3 on Jordan's 3, then the jazz got a quick dunk to go down by 1. the next play the jazz HAD to foul. malone had 5 fouls, but its no excuse... he had a HUGE chance to foul very early into the play but he elected not to, the bulls took off valuable seconds and then luc longley got an uncontested dunk. in game 6, he shot 7 for 15 from the free throw line as the jazz lost by 4. malone was not a bad free throw shooter but he definitley choked at the line in that series. for that series he shot 44% from the field and 60% from the line... not terrible but considering during that regular season he shot 55% percent and 76% from the line.

he played a lot better in 1998, but also had the turnover in game 6 that led to MJ's game winning shot.




Good answer, I will consider Earl The Pearl. Karl Malone didn't play that bad. But I will check up on those Earl the pearl stats... Good answer. :hammertime: .

[Gingereffic]

Look at the number of big men on this list. I don't think you can compare a guard to a center because those guys are taking higher percentage shots, better opportunities for rebounds.



Why is there such a double standard? Kobe is one of the greats in this league. Watered down as it may be he still has to be considered a great player. If you want him to be known as a great player than you compare him vs other greats. Not just guards. Kobe at this point is still at the top of this list...

[Laker4Lyfe]

Why does Jeff allow people to create new names just to troll?? There should be a limit at how many accounts can be made from one IP address.

It's garbage like this that ruins ISH IMO. :banghead::banghead:

[Gingereffic]

Kobe only went to the Finals "once" & u want to label him the biggest choker? :D



WOW WE GOT A KOBEPHILE HERE... :hammerhead:

[Gingereffic]

Why does Jeff allow people to create new names just to troll?? There should be a limit at how many accounts can be made from one IP address.

It's garbage like this that ruins ISH IMO. :banghead::banghead:



First I have only one screen name and I have used it to call out both Lebron and Kobe who are considered the best in todayS game. Second don't get mad because I am exposing both Lebron and Kobe. They are great but most fans only want to hear about the clutch performances. Kobe has had little clutch about him in the Finals and needs some Good series in the finals just to get him off this list. So far the brotha is just plain horrible in the Finals... Vs that weak east... :lol . Isn't this the guy you compare to MJ. Come on. Just telling the truth..:hammertime:

[Allstar24]

First, the Lakers would get swept in the 04 finals without Kobe. Second, the entire Lakers team got manhandled in the 08 finals, one guy can't be blamed for the team's performance. Third, get a life you worthless piece of ****.

[BigTicket]

Kobe has to be considered at least, he's been in 5 finals series but has never been dominant in any of them, and in 4 of them he was well below his usual level. That's not exactly a great record for someone who may well end up top 10 alltime, and is already top 20 of alltime.

[Laker4Lyfe]

First I have only one screen name and I have used it to call out both Lebron and Kobe who are considered the best in todayS game. Second don't get mad because I am exposing both Lebron and Kobe. They are great but most fans only want to hear about the clutch performances. Kobe has had little clutch about him in the Finals and needs some Good series in the finals just to get him off this list. So far the brotha is just plain horrible in the Finals... Vs that weak east... :lol . Isn't this the guy you compare to MJ. Come on. Just telling the truth..:hammertime:

Sure you only have one screen name, you want to sell me a bridge also??? And i'm not mad because you're "exposing" anyone. You're post are just garbage and they take up space that could be used for intelligent basketball discussion IMO.

[Gingereffic]

First, the Lakers would get swept in the 04 finals without Kobe. Second, the entire Lakers team got manhandled in the 08 finals, one guy can't be blamed for the team's performance. Third, get a life you worthless piece of ****.



The entire team got manhandled. Kobe played much worse than Odom or Gasol did in that finals. Kobe got manhandled more than any other laker. Did you watch that finals? Ray Allen was killing Kobe so he went over to PpIERCE than he busted that but so they put Kobe on Rondo who was hurt but even Rondo busted that bootie in the final game of the finals. Even stripping Kobe's crossover... :pimp: :hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

Kobe has to be considered at least, he's been in 5 finals series but has never been dominant in any of them, and in 4 of them he was well below his usual level. That's not exactly a great record for someone who may well end up top 10 alltime, and is already top 20 of alltime.


I agree Kobe has choked . And I also agree Kobe is a player who could wind up as a top 15 not 10. So he has to be judged like all the all time greats are.. SoRRY Kobe philesssss.

TOP Ever in my opinion

MJ and Kareem
Russell and Wilt
Magic and Oscar
bIRD and COUSY
Shaq and Hakeem
Mikan and Duncan
Jerry West and KOBE ,but Kobe has to win two more NBA titles and play big in winning them.. At this point I see know way of moving him to top 10 of all time since he has really been lousy on the biggest stage. No choking in the Finals please.... Kobe is in my opinion better than Lebron so Lebron fans sorry. His day will come though. Just not yet... :hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

hell no. guy only has 1 bad finals performance and hes won 3 of the 5 finals hes been in.dont hate.
hes had finals of 28/6/5/3,26/6/6/2,25/7/6/2,.:oldlol: at this thread.



Another KOBEPHILE. Don't have the stats but I am almost sure Kobe only avg low 20's in all his finals appearances except for 2002 and 2008.. 2002 was his best finals but Shaq was a beast and easily won MVP for that finals.. :hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

Sure you only have one screen name, you want to sell me a bridge also??? And i'm not mad because you're "exposing" anyone. You're post are just garbage and they take up space that could be used for intelligent basketball discussion IMO.


You are just mad you can't have any input in this intelligent conversation because you are not intelligent.... :lol :oldlol:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Gingereffic = KGisBigTicket ???

regardless, Ginger is another worthless troll infecting this board with mindless drivel.

[gpfanz]

WOW WE GOT A KOBEPHILE HERE... :hammerhead:

Yeah how u know Kobe is my man? :eek:

[Gingereffic]

actually kobe avgered 25 ppg in 01, 26 ppg in 02,26 ppg in 08.:hammertime:
:oldlol: at the lebron groupies getting mad.


Actually you are wrong, he avg 24.6 in 01... Thanks for playing. Not a lebron groupie. Please he is trying to imitate Kobe as best as he can. He may be the only player in the world who has a chance at taking that biggest choker in finals history label off of Kobe. But he has to play with one of the all time greats to be considered. Wade dominated in the playoffs with Shaq as a teammate.. That was a old shaq as well.. :hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

Gingereffic = KGisBigTicket ???

regardless, Ginger is another worthless troll infecting this board with mindless drivel.



bleeding purple sorry if I upset you. I also have a thread on Lebron's brick of a jump shot if you like that one better just post on it. Though it has not been so popular... :hammerhead:

[Kappy]

I remember Starks choking, I was a huge Ewing fan at the time. Ewing couldn't consistently hit a shot that series, but he was excellent blocking shots and rebounding plus he did play Olajuwon pretty tough and was able to hold Hakeem under his season averages in points and FG%. Obviously Hakeem outplayed Patrick, but Ewing was pretty good that series.

Anderson was worse though. He missed FOUR straight free throws, he needed ONE to seal the game. They got swept that series. Who knows what would have happened if Anderson hits a free throw. I've always thought that Orlando would have had atleast as good of a chance as Houston at winning that series if not for Anderson choking. If they do then maybe Shaq would have never left and Orlando could have had a dynasty. I know that's a lot of ifs but Anderson choking may have caused all of that.

Kobe being a choker is a myth too.

In 2000 he was a solid role player in the finals and with Shaq averaging 38/17/3/2/61% did he really need to be anything more? I'll break it down game by game.

In game 1 of the 2000 Finals Kobe did an excellent job on reggie Miller defensively limiting him to 1/16 shooting and just 7 points. Kobe in return had 14 points, 5 boards and a couple of blocks on a respectable 6-13 from the floor. I'd say that outscoring your counterpart and the other team's star by 7 points on 3 less shots is pretty damn solid. With Shaq putting up 41 points, 19 boards and 4 blocks, Kobe didn't need to do anything more than he did. In fact him shooting as little as he did probably helped because of how good Shaq was that game.

In game 2 he got injured after only 9 minutes so we can't really judge him in game 2.

He sat out game 3

In game 4 he played like a superstar scoring 28 points on 52% shooting while handing out 5 assists. Of course who could forget him hitting clutch shot after clutch shot in the 4th quarter and OT after Shaq fouled out. Kobe may have saved the series with his play in overtime.

In game 5 he was truly horrendous shooting 4-20 and scoring just 8 points as the Lakers got blown out by 33.

In game 6 he struggled quite a bit shooting 8-27, but he did have 10 boards and a couple of blocks. However shooting 8-27 is pretty bad especially with Shaq scoring 41 points.

So in 2 out of 4 games he played very well. One of the games saved the series and the Lakers won so that's the tiebreaker. So no he didn't choke in 2000. Plus he was solid for the entire playoffs.

In 2001 he did struggle with his shot shooting 42%, but that's not horrible, especially against a great defensive team like Philly. Plus he contributed with 25 points per game, 8 rebounds and 6 assists. In game 4 he was 1 assist shy of a triple double and he averaged.

He also did a good job on Iverson defensively. While AI averaged 35.6 ppg, he needed 32.4 shots per game to do it. And that's not even counting free throws! Iverson shot just 40.7% in the series, part of that was probably because of Bryant's defense. Iverson also averaged only 3.8 assists so he wasn't really getting his teammates involved either, part of that was because Kobe made Iverson take a lot of shots to get his points. The way he made Iverson work for his points and not get his teammates involved was pretty much all Phil Jackson could have possibly hoped for defensively.

So pretty much that series Kobe did everything very well except for his shooting % was a little low, but 42% against a top defensive team isn't embarrassing by any stretch. besides Shaq was dominating again averaging 33/16/5 as well as 3 and a half blocks per game. So they didn't need Kobe to be a dominant scorer, but his 25 point scoring average certainly wasn't bad. And once again the Lakers won the series in 5 games.

Then I have to mention what Kobe did that entire playoff run. Of course he had those back to back 40 point games, but for the 2001 playoffs he averaged over 29, 7 and 6 while shooting 47%. Shaq was still the best player in the playoffs averaging over 30 and 15, but you could argue that Kobe was better than Shaq in one or two series. Kobe was the second best player in the playoffs that year, he had an outstanding playoff run. His play was legendary that postseason.

As you mentioned he was excellent in 2002, and I won't deny that he was terrible in the 2004 finals.

Now 2008....while he didn't play very well in his defense he had to go up against one of the best defensive teams in recent years with no help from his teammates. Only 1 time did any of his teammates score 20 points in a game that series and that was just Lamar Odom who scored 20 even. So as a result the Celtics could double and triple Kobe all they wanted because none of his teammates were hitting shots. So I'm not sure that I'd call that choking, especially since the Lakers did atleast take Boston to 6 games despite Boston having homecourt advantage. The Lakers frontline also got murdered by Boston's inside which has nothing to do with Kobe. That may have been the key to the series. I personally wouldn't call his 2008 finals performance choking. He didn't even have the luxuary of having 1 teammate who averaged 15 ppg.

Kobe has 3 championships for a reason, calling him the biggest choker in finals history is laughable.

Great post!!! :applause: --- STAMP

And I see that Ginger has chosen to ignore it .... No answer!!! :confusedshrug:

[lefthook00]

He WON 3-5 finals moron. He also played great defense.

[juju151111]

actually kobe avgered 25 ppg in 01, 26 ppg in 02,26 ppg in 08.:hammertime:
:oldlol: at the lebron groupies getting mad.
Post his FG%.I don't understand your so called Goat kome doesn't perform like the thrash that is Mj in the finals.I just don't get it.Explain and guest who was guarding him in the 02 finals??A PF LOL

[chopchop20]

You can say that Kobe has had some sub-standard Finals performances, but he set that standard with his play. If another player had similar numbers, that player might get props.

Anyways, it's funny how these threads tend to go. People look for blemishes on the resume... Kobe's Finals performances have been discussed a million times before.

And it's funny how people try to dismiss Kobe's overall playoff career -- which is head and shoulders beyond other guards in the game. I mean, you gotta win the other games to get there and Kobe has consistently been a very good performer in the playoffs.

[JtotheIzzo]

My conclusion is that he is in the running. Plenty of guys have played bad in one finals, some guys had even played poorly in two finals but Kobe has been pretty bad in 4 of 5 Finals he has played in. So far his shooting percentages have been 37 percent vs Indiana while Marc Jackson was guarding him. He shot 40 percent vs the Sixers the following year, then had a very good showing vs the Nets and shot around 50 percent. But here comes the ones that really put Kobe in a league all his own. Kobe shot and single handedly gave my Pistons the 2004 title. 37 percent shooting for kobe while Shaq shot around 65 Percent for the series... In 2008 THE Lakers were again in the Finals and Kobe shot a 40 percent. :hammertime:

you are either a rabble rouser or really dumb, but judging from the MC Hammer at the end you are having a go at Kobephiles.

[jrong]

Wade can't do it without Shaq.

Yeah Shaq was such a help in that Finals with his worst +/- rating on the team, 13.7 ppg and being outscored by Antoine Walker, constant foul trouble, and inability to hit FTs which led to him sitting out most of the 4th qtrs so Dallas couldn't Hack-a-Shaq....

[kobesabi]

No. The biggest choker is the one who got knocked out in early rounds.

Anyway, I bet you choke more than him. :D

[Gingereffic]

No. The biggest choker is the one who got knocked out in early rounds.

Anyway, I bet you choke more than him. :D



ARF,,, Paul Pierce is no biatch, actually he made kobe his biatch last year and the other night... I don't know how he pulls it out, he is so damn slow but he gets the job done... As for playoff choker you don't want me to talk about kobe and his great two playoffs vs that great defensive team the Suns... :hammertime:

[JJ81]

More Kobe hate? Get a life.:violin:

[Gingereffic]

you are either a rabble rouser or really dumb, but judging from the MC Hammer at the end you are having a go at Kobephiles.


jto the izzo h to the izzo, kobe so phoney he feels sick when two homies wade and lebreazo come to his nizzo. Not bad .. :lol . No I actually think kobe is a great player and have said this before. Just here to show Wade is better than Kobe or lebron..:oldlol:

[Gingereffic]

More Kobe hate? Get a life.:violin:



Not Kobe hate. Kobe love.... I love kobe and lebron .. Just wish they weren't the chokers that they are... Lebron shoots and he misses... Kobe shoots and he misses...

[Gingereffic]

My conclusion is that he is in the running. Plenty of guys have played bad in one finals, some guys had even played poorly in two finals but Kobe has been pretty bad in 4 of 5 Finals he has played in. So far his shooting percentages have been 37 percent vs Indiana while Marc Jackson was guarding him. He shot 40 percent vs the Sixers the following year, then had a very good showing vs the Nets and shot around 50 percent. But here comes the ones that really put Kobe in a league all his own. Kobe shot and single handedly gave my Pistons the 2004 title. 37 percent shooting for kobe while Shaq shot around 65 Percent for the series... In 2008 THE Lakers were again in the Finals and Kobe shot a 40 percent. :hammertime:




So far not one player mentioned is on Kobe's level of choking in the big time Finals... I guess I will just have to pin that tag on Kobe... Biggest choker in finals history.... :rockon:

[MMM]

in 3 of his last 4 finals (don't want to consider his 1st one) he has not played up to his expectations I wouldn't consider him a choker but if he has another sub par finals it might have to come to that.

[Gingereffic]

in 3 of his last 4 finals (don't want to consider his 1st one) he has not played up to his expectations I wouldn't consider him a choker but if he has another sub par finals it might have to come to that.



Why not consider his first finals? We are considering Lebron's first and Lebron had no talent around him. Kobe had SHAQ, RICE, HARPER, SHAW, HORRY.. And some other good veterans..:cheers:

[VCMVP1551]

Yeah Shaq was such a help in that Finals with his worst +/- rating on the team, 13.7 ppg and being outscored by Antoine Walker, constant foul trouble, and inability to hit FTs which led to him sitting out most of the 4th qtrs so Dallas couldn't Hack-a-Shaq....

How about getting to the finals?

Remember what he did vs Detroit in the Eastern Conference Finals? You know the same Detroit that won 64 games that season, had homecourt advantage, had just won the finals in 2004 and lost in 7 in the finals in 2005?

21.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.3 bpg, 65.5 FG%

Or how about the fact that during the regular season he led the league in FG% while averaging 20 ppg and 9 rpg?

[c_az_a]

Kobe 0 finals MVP out of 5 appearances (Last two appearances 3-8)
Wade 1 finals MVP out of 1 appearances (Last four games 4-0)
Jordan 6 finals MVP out of 6 appearancs (priceless)

Wade is closer to Jordan than Kobe. For Kobe to win 6 finals MVP, he would need 11 appearances to do it.

Hence Kobe is more hype than result.

[VCMVP1551]

Great post!!! :applause: --- STAMP

And I see that Ginger has chosen to ignore it .... No answer!!! :confusedshrug:

Thanks, of course he has no answer. Trolls have no answer for me. :rockon:

[Blue&Orange]

Kobe the Chokemaster ,Lebron the Brickmaster, and that's why they are miles away from Jordan.

[glidedrxlr22]

......to the OP......pretty much yeah.

[Gingereffic]

Thanks, of course he has no answer. Trolls have no answer for me. :rockon:


First lie is Kobe guarding Miller it was not kobe and I will send you game tape showing Harper being the main defender vs Miller... Second yes sTARKS AND anderson both choked but in only one finals. Sorry Kobe has already choked in 4 out of 5. Third in 2001 he was being defended by Aaron Mckie who played with a broken ankle that whole series. Arf what a choker.. Fourth whenever he guarded iverson ,iverson blew right by him. Ty Lue did the best job on Iverson and was the guy that almost always defended AI.. Fifth thanks for not trying to debate 2004. Sixth Kobe did play good help defense in last years Finals but was pitiful one on one vs anyone he guarded. Watch those games again and notice how Ray Allen killed kobe, than pierce did kobe and even Rondo did pretty good in game 6. Kobe let his team lose by 39 pts and his 40% shooting in last years finals is another farce since most of his good shooting occurred in the first quarter. Check that out and I bet I am right. Kobe is clutch ,first quarter clutch.. Nice for playing but you still have not pointed out a player who has choked in more finals. Wait maybe drexler. But I won't be doing that research. You Kobephiles do it and see if that helps you out... OWNED ONCE AGAIN...:hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

First lie is Kobe guarding Miller it was not kobe and I will send you game tape showing Harper being the main defender vs Miller... Second yes sTARKS AND anderson both choked but in only one finals. Sorry Kobe has already choked in 4 out of 5. Third in 2001 he was being defended by Aaron Mckie who played with a broken ankle that whole series. Arf what a choker.. Fourth whenever he guarded iverson ,iverson blew right by him. Ty Lue did the best job on Iverson and was the guy that almost always defended AI.. Fifth thanks for not trying to debate 2004. Sixth Kobe did play good help defense in last years Finals but was pitiful one on one vs anyone he guarded. Watch those games again and notice how Ray Allen killed kobe, than pierce did kobe and even Rondo did pretty good in game 6. Kobe let his team lose by 39 pts and his 40% shooting in last years finals is another farce since most of his good shooting occurred in the first quarter. Check that out and I bet I am right. Kobe is clutch ,first quarter clutch.. Nice for playing but you still have not pointed out a player who has choked in more finals. Wait maybe drexler. But I won't be doing that research. You Kobephiles do it and see if that helps you out... OWNED ONCE AGAIN...:hammertime:









Where you at? Gotta go coolio ... I am out for the day. Take a chill pill kobephiles I think your boy is better than Lebron.. But still the biggest choker in finals history...:hammertime:

[FIXED]

He is up there. To answer your question no.

[juju151111]

How about getting to the finals?

Remember what he did vs Detroit in the Eastern Conference Finals? You know the same Detroit that won 64 games that season, had homecourt advantage, had just won the finals in 2004 and lost in 7 in the finals in 2005?

21.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.3 bpg, 65.5 FG%

Or how about the fact that during the regular season he led the league in FG% while averaging 20 ppg and 9 rpg?
We are t5alking about the finals and wade ****ted on detriot too.U have no0 real point.Kobe hass been choking and can't be compared to greats like MJ in the finals(talking to 2345 with the last comment)

[VCMVP1551]

First lie is Kobe guarding Miller it was not kobe and I will send you game tape showing Harper being the main defender vs Miller... Second yes sTARKS AND anderson both choked but in only one finals. Sorry Kobe has already choked in 4 out of 5. Third in 2001 he was being defended by Aaron Mckie who played with a broken ankle that whole series. Arf what a choker.. Fourth whenever he guarded iverson ,iverson blew right by him. Ty Lue did the best job on Iverson and was the guy that almost always defended AI.. Fifth thanks for not trying to debate 2004. Sixth Kobe did play good help defense in last years Finals but was pitiful one on one vs anyone he guarded. Watch those games again and notice how Ray Allen killed kobe, than pierce did kobe and even Rondo did pretty good in game 6. Kobe let his team lose by 39 pts and his 40% shooting in last years finals is another farce since most of his good shooting occurred in the first quarter. Check that out and I bet I am right. Kobe is clutch ,first quarter clutch.. Nice for playing but you still have not pointed out a player who has choked in more finals. Wait maybe drexler. But I won't be doing that research. You Kobephiles do it and see if that helps you out... OWNED ONCE AGAIN...:hammertime:

Harper played 27.3 mpg in the 4 full games that Kobe played 41.8 mpg.

Miller played 42.5 mpg in those 4 games.

Just by the fact that Kobe was on the floor for 14.5 more mpg and by the fact that Harper and Kobe would often switch between playing Miller and Rose when they both were on the floor backs up that Kobe defended Miller atleast half the time, but probably more.

By the way in those 4 full games Kobe played, Miller averaged 23 points and shot just 37.9% from the floor.

In the 2 games that Kobe didn't really play Miller averaged 27 points and shot47.4%.

Tyronn Lue also only played 14.6 mpg in the 2001 finals. Iverson played 47.4 mpg

For Lue to defend Iverson most of the time, he would have had to have been out on the court more than half the time that Iverson was. for that he would have to have played a minimum of 23.8 mpg. Lue didn't even play 1/3 the minutes Iverson did! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

That was WAY too easy.


We are t5alking about the finals and wade ****ted on detriot too.U have no0 real point.Kobe hass been choking and can't be compared to greats like MJ in the finals(talking to 2345 with the last comment)

You can't win the finals without getting there so yes I do have a point. Without Kobe the Lakers probably don't make the finals in 2000, 2001 or 2002, much less win. Same with Miami, they wouldn't have made the finals without Shaq.

Kobe is not a choker. He's done his job in 3 out of 5 finals. In 2008 none of his teammates stepped up and scored consistently vs Boston making it nearly impossible for the Lakers to win. Boston was able to double and triple Kobe as much as they wanted because the role players weren't hitting their shots consistently.

[juju151111]

Harper played 27.3 mpg in the 4 full games that Kobe played 41.8 mpg.

Miller played 42.5 mpg in those 4 games.

Just by the fact that Kobe was on the floor for 14.5 more mpg and by the fact that Harper and Kobe would often switch between playing Miller and Rose when they both were on the floor backs up that Kobe defended Miller atleast half the time, but probably more.

By the way in those 4 full games Kobe played, Miller averaged 23 points and shot just 37.9% from the floor.

In the 2 games that Kobe didn't really play Miller averaged 27 points and shot47.4%.

Tyronn Lue also only played 14.6 mpg in the 2001 finals. Iverson played 47.4 mpg

For Lue to defend Iverson most of the time, he would have had to have been out on the court more than half the time that Iverson was. for that he would have to have played a minimum of 23.8 mpg. Lue didn't even play 1/3 the minutes Iverson did! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

That was WAY too easy.



You can't win the finals without getting there so yes I do have a point. Without Kobe the Lakers probably don't make the finals in 2000, 2001 or 2002, much less win. Same with Miami, they wouldn't have made the finals without Shaq.

Kobe is not a choker. He's done his job in 3 out of 5 finals. In 2008 none of his teammates stepped up and scored consistently vs Boston making it nearly impossible for the Lakers to win. Boston was able to double and triple Kobe as much as they wanted because the role players weren't hitting their shots consistently.
Kobe wasn't hitting his shot on a consistent basis either and he didn't even take over in that 20 point gm.LOL That was a major gm in the series they loss.

[jrong]

How about getting to the finals?

Remember what he did vs Detroit in the Eastern Conference Finals? You know the same Detroit that won 64 games that season, had homecourt advantage, had just won the finals in 2004 and lost in 7 in the finals in 2005?

21.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.3 bpg, 65.5 FG%

Or how about the fact that during the regular season he led the league in FG% while averaging 20 ppg and 9 rpg?

And do you remember what Wade did against Detroit?!

26.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.83 spg, 61.7 FG% AS A GUARD

And in the regular season, Wade was at 27/6/7 on 50%. Shaq was a fine Robin to Wade's Batman. But, that's all he was.

The Detroit series was definitely Shaq's best playoff performance for the Heat, though. I will agree with that.

Other than that, he had a great Game 6 against the Bulls, and that's about it. In the Finals, I give him credit for exactly two things-- hitting his two FTs near the end of Game 3, so Wade's comeback didn't go to waste and drawing the flagrant foul in Game 4 that led to Stackhouse's suspension....

[c_az_a]

And do you remember what Wade did against Detroit?!

26.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.83 spg, 61.7 FG% AS A GUARD

And in the regular season, Wade was at 27/6/7 on 50%. Shaq was a fine Robin to Wade's Batman. But, that's all he was.

The Detroit series was definitely Shaq's best playoff performance for the Heat, though. I will agree with that.

Other than that, he had a great Game 6 against the Bulls, and that's about it. In the Finals, I give him credit for exactly two things-- hitting his two FTs near the end of Game 3, so Wade's comeback didn't go to waste and drawing the flagrant foul in Game 4 that led to Stackhouse's suspension....

We should compare Wade's performance in his championship year against Detroit versus Kobe's finals appearance in 2004 where they lost in 5.

[kobesabi]

Where you at? Gotta go coolio ... I am out for the day. Take a chill pill kobephiles I think your boy is better than Lebron.. But still the biggest choker in finals history...:hammertime:
So you enjoy replying to your own response? Nice. Don't choke it.

Yes...it's nice to go out and give your hand a break from all those choking. :D

[detotronix]

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nba_experts__20/ept_sports_nba_experts-224091643-1234202302.jpg?ym_KgxADmrMtm8FF

[Gingereffic]

Harper played 27.3 mpg in the 4 full games that Kobe played 41.8 mpg.

Miller played 42.5 mpg in those 4 games.

Just by the fact that Kobe was on the floor for 14.5 more mpg and by the fact that Harper and Kobe would often switch between playing Miller and Rose when they both were on the floor backs up that Kobe defended Miller atleast half the time, but probably more.

By the way in those 4 full games Kobe played, Miller averaged 23 points and shot just 37.9% from the floor.

In the 2 games that Kobe didn't really play Miller averaged 27 points and shot47.4%.

Tyronn Lue also only played 14.6 mpg in the 2001 finals. Iverson played 47.4 mpg

For Lue to defend Iverson most of the time, he would have had to have been out on the court more than half the time that Iverson was. for that he would have to have played a minimum of 23.8 mpg. Lue didn't even play 1/3 the minutes Iverson did! :
That was WAY too easy.



You can't win the finals without getting there so yes I do have a point. Without Kobe the Lakers probably don't make the finals in 2000, 2001 or 2002, much less win. Same with Miami, they wouldn't have made the finals without Shaq.

Kobe is not a choker. He's done his job in 3 out of 5 finals. In 2008 none of his teammates stepped up and scored consistently vs Boston making it nearly impossible for the Lakers to win. Boston was able to double and triple Kobe as much as they wanted because the role players weren't hitting their shots consistently.




I AM OUT TO BRING YOUR FAKE ARSE POST DOWN. I will prove you wrong by using stats and quotes from NBA.COM . Both of which anyone can find on the net. Thank you for having played but I will in 5 seconds prove you to be a fake.. Like KOBE..


The only points I will give you are that the Laker teams needed Kobe to get to the finals. After that you must not have watched the 2000 Finals because I can still remember Kobe guarding Jalen ROse and Jalen posting kobe up time after time. Or guarding Mark Jackson to mess up their offensive rythym. I am sure he guarded Miller but briefly. Go check out the films... Either way Reg Miller had one bad game and it was his first. Second ,in games 4 thru 6 reggie MILLER SHOT 48 percent. While kobe was shooting 26-74 and most of those shots were made in game 4. Good game four by Kobe.. Best game ever btw for the BCIFH.. Try and say my stats are wrong.. Please . Not only did harper guard Miller but Fox, rice,AND shaw also guarded miller. OWNED.. WATCH THE GAMES PLEASE, I CAN TELL YOU ARE JUST LOOKING AT THE STATS .. LOL KOBE=BCIFH

In 2001 lue and fisher did almost all the defending of Iverson while Kobe guarded that great Snow. Mckie with a broken ankle slowed down kobe. Iverson did shoot .407 but that was much better than either the conference finals or the semifinals where he shot .344 and .404. Both on much lower avg so he actually was hot vs the Lakers. LOL . OWNED ONCE AGAIN:hammertime:

A QUOTE FROM NBA.COM AFTER GAME 1
Guarded by the speedy Lue most of the rest of the way, Iverson scored only three points until his flurry in overtime gave the 76ers a 103-99 lead with 48.2 seconds left and, as it turned out, enough points for the victory. OWNED AGAIN.

A QUOTE AFTER GAME TWO

Fisher scored 14 and played a big part in containing Allen Iverson, and Kobe Bryant had 31 points, eight rebounds and six assists -- as well as an earful of trash talk from Iverson in the final seconds as the series grew more confrontational. YOU R GETTING OWNED IN AN UNUSUAL WAY BROTHA.. :lol

A QUOTE AFTER GAME 3 AGAIN ON NBA.COM

Notes: O'Neal scored 14 points in the first quarter, going 6-for-7 from the line. ... Derek Fisher again played tight defense on Iverson, although the referees didn't let him get away with as much holding as he did in Game 2.

YOU ARE NOW MY SON. :hammertime: I will limit your pain my child. :lol

Quote from nba.com after game 4

The Lakers had 10 three-pointers, including three by Robert Horry, and used Derek Fisher and Tyronn Lue to hold Allen Iverson in check once again.
OWNED MY SON.. :hammerhead: I still love ya.. :lol



In 2002 KOBE PLAYED WELL.
IN 2004 KOBE SINGLE HANDEDLY LOST THE FINALS.. THANKS FOR AGREEING.


In 2008 Gasol outplayed Kg on offense, Lamar didn't play well at all times but wound up with avg 15 pts on 50 percent shooting. Kobe on the hand was embarrassed by Ray allen, than Pierce than rondo. Watch the finals and tell me that I made this up. Please... OWNED ONCE AGAIN... Kobe is just the biggest choker in finals history.. Get used to it... :hammertime: Kobe also let his team get blown out .. And that BCIFH only had one good game in the 2008 Finals. I would say he choked more than Gasol and Odom.. :cry:

[kidachi]

this one won't be over.. SMH. he choked in 04. and that's about it.. you could call that CHOKING. he kept forcing shots in the whole series..

[big baller]

a big no

[dynasty1978]

Gingeraffic is reaching Poodle Bark-like status quick, way to run interference with Kobe hate. :applause: :applause:

[Gingereffic]

And do you remember what Wade did against Detroit?!

26.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.83 spg, 61.7 FG% AS A GUARD

And in the regular season, Wade was at 27/6/7 on 50%. Shaq was a fine Robin to Wade's Batman. But, that's all he was.

The Detroit series was definitely Shaq's best playoff performance for the Heat, though. I will agree with that.

Other than that, he had a great Game 6 against the Bulls, and that's about it. In the Finals, I give him credit for exactly two things-- hitting his two FTs near the end of Game 3, so Wade's comeback didn't go to waste and drawing the flagrant foul in Game 4 that led to Stackhouse's suspension....




If kobe had one play game as good as Wade's whole playoff series people would be talking about Kobe being FOAT.... :hammertime:

[Laker4Lyfe]

Gingeraffic is reaching Poodle Bark-like status quick, way to run interference with Kobe hate. :applause: :applause:

It's probably the same person. :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[Gingereffic]

this one won't be over.. SMH. he choked in 04. and that's about it.. you could call that CHOKING. he kept forcing shots in the whole series..


KIDACHI, he didn't choke in 04 he singlehandedly lost that series. Something Phil Jackson pretty much said in his book. Don't take it from me. Ask Phil. :confusedshrug:

[Gingereffic]

It's probably the same person. :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:



poodle whoever he is can't get close to me. I am just too smart and having watched over 38 years of bball I know what I have seen. I also have most playoff series on tape. So if you make me get them out I will punish you... I BE THE MAN ..... :pimp: :hammertime:

[iggy>]

KIDACHI, he didn't choke in 04 he singlehandedly lost that series. Something Phil Jackson pretty much said in his book. Don't take it from me. Ask Phil. :confusedshrug:
he didnt singlehandedly lose that series, detroit was just a way better team than the lakers were. the lakers were lucky to even be in the finals, after a collosal choke by the spurs.

[dynasty1978]

KIDACHI, he didn't choke in 04 he singlehandedly lost that series. Something Phil Jackson pretty much said in his book. Don't take it from me. Ask Phil. :confusedshrug:

I asked Phil and he says you're a Moron. :D

[juju151111]

I AM OUT TO BRING YOUR FAKE ARSE POST DOWN. I will prove you wrong by using stats and quotes from NBA.COM . Both of which anyone can find on the net. Thank you for having played but I will in 5 seconds prove you to be a fake.. Like KOBE..


The only points I will give you are that the Laker teams needed Kobe to get to the finals. After that you must not have watched the 2000 Finals because I can still remember Kobe guarding Jalen ROse and Jalen posting kobe up time after time. Or guarding Mark Jackson to mess up their offensive rythym. I am sure he guarded Miller but briefly. Go check out the films... Either way Reg Miller had one bad game and it was his first. Second ,in games 4 thru 6 reggie MILLER SHOT 48 percent. While kobe was shooting 26-74 and most of those shots were made in game 4. Good game four by Kobe.. Best game ever btw for the BCIFH.. Try and say my stats are wrong.. Please . Not only did harper guard Miller but Fox, rice,AND shaw also guarded miller. OWNED.. WATCH THE GAMES PLEASE, I CAN TELL YOU ARE JUST LOOKING AT THE STATS .. LOL KOBE=BCIFH

In 2001 lue and fisher did almost all the defending of Iverson while Kobe guarded that great Snow. Mckie with a broken ankle slowed down kobe. Iverson did shoot .407 but that was much better than either the conference finals or the semifinals where he shot .344 and .404. Both on much lower avg so he actually was hot vs the Lakers. LOL . OWNED ONCE AGAIN:hammertime:

A QUOTE FROM NBA.COM AFTER GAME 1
Guarded by the speedy Lue most of the rest of the way, Iverson scored only three points until his flurry in overtime gave the 76ers a 103-99 lead with 48.2 seconds left and, as it turned out, enough points for the victory. OWNED AGAIN.

A QUOTE AFTER GAME TWO

Fisher scored 14 and played a big part in containing Allen Iverson, and Kobe Bryant had 31 points, eight rebounds and six assists -- as well as an earful of trash talk from Iverson in the final seconds as the series grew more confrontational. YOU R GETTING OWNED IN AN UNUSUAL WAY BROTHA.. :lol

A QUOTE AFTER GAME 3 AGAIN ON NBA.COM

Notes: O'Neal scored 14 points in the first quarter, going 6-for-7 from the line. ... Derek Fisher again played tight defense on Iverson, although the referees didn't let him get away with as much holding as he did in Game 2.

YOU ARE NOW MY SON. :hammertime: I will limit your pain my child. :lol

Quote from nba.com after game 4

The Lakers had 10 three-pointers, including three by Robert Horry, and used Derek Fisher and Tyronn Lue to hold Allen Iverson in check once again.
OWNED MY SON.. :hammerhead: I still love ya.. :lol



In 2002 KOBE PLAYED WELL.
IN 2004 KOBE SINGLE HANDEDLY LOST THE FINALS.. THANKS FOR AGREEING.


In 2008 Gasol outplayed Kg on offense, Lamar didn't play well at all times but wound up with avg 15 pts on 50 percent shooting. Kobe on the hand was embarrassed by Ray allen, than Pierce than rondo. Watch the finals and tell me that I made this up. Please... OWNED ONCE AGAIN... Kobe is just the biggest choker in finals history.. Get used to it... :hammertime: Kobe also let his team get blown out .. And that BCIFH only had one good game in the 2008 Finals. I would say he choked more than Gasol and Odom.. :cry:
VC i don't think you could argue with that those quotes can you?:hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

this one won't be over.. SMH. he choked in 04. and that's about it.. you could call that CHOKING. he kept forcing shots in the whole series..

kIDACHI u seem reasonable, so I will say this, Kobe lost that finals all by himself. In 2000 he was good one game and that is it. The last two games he shot 4-20 and 8-27. Yea great help. He should have sat those games out. LOL.

If you read my long post than all my material is found on the net. Kobe never guarded Iverson. A lie by a desparate kobephile. In 2008 the brotha got his clock cleaned. Everyone likes stating that both Odom and Gasol played bad but Kobe was worse. Gasol outplayed KG on offense, Lamar as bad as people say he was avg 15 pts on 50 percent shooting.. LOL... LATAGATA:hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

VC i don't think you could argue with that those quotes can you?:hammertime:


VC or whoever wrote that is a fake and I just proved it. I AM THE MAN.. :lol :cheers:

[Gingereffic]

I asked Phil and he says you're a Moron. :D



Phil's quote. Kobe is a callous gunslinger.. This from Phils book. OWNED FOR THE LAST TIME BECAUSE YOU BROTHAS IS JUST TOO DUH FOR ME.. :rockon:

[Gingereffic]

he didnt singlehandedly lose that series, detroit was just a way better team than the lakers were. the lakers were lucky to even be in the finals, after a collosal choke by the spurs.



Yea good strategy try putting the attention on someone else. Good try but IT ISN'T WORKING... Kobe is a callous gunslinger. kOBE JUST DID NOT KNOW HOW TO ATTACK PRINCE.. :cheers: Those quotes from Phil Jackson's book... :wtf:

[gts]

so what's the point of this thread?

[iggy>]

Yea good strategy try putting the attention on someone else. Good try but IT ISN'T WORKING... Kobe is a callous gunslinger. kOBE JUST DID NOT KNOW HOW TO ATTACK PRINCE.. :cheers: Those quotes from Phil Jackson's book... :wtf:
but kobe didnt choke @ all in that series. he won game 2 by himself. the rest of the games werent even close. the lakers were a putrid mess that year, as was the rest of the western conference. stop putting all the blame on kobe, that lakers team just wasnt good.

[gts]

i smell pizza... god i love pizza... does anyone else here besides me love pizza?

gosh i had a ham and mash potatos for dinner but i smell pizza and i'm thinking i might get somebody on the phone and order one up for later

[Gingereffic]

Great post.
Kobe haters owned....again. :oldlol:

I just proved that whole post a farce. Thanks for playiNG. Better get Kobe here to kick my arse... That is the only way I will stop.. LOL.:rockon: I have used facts baby. I just crapped on that post.. Kobe had nothing to do with IVERSON OR MILLERS 'S PERFORMANCES. :wtf: Desperate fans will now go the excuse road... Kobe ah, kobe ah, he was sick. :lol

[Gingereffic]

i smell pizza... god i love pizza... does anyone else here besides me love pizza?

gosh i had a ham and mash potatos for dinner but i smell pizza and i'm thinking i might get somebody on the phone and order one up for later


Get me some too. That sounds pretty good... Kobe was sick... OK. I want some pizza. I am now going to attack anyone who attac:hammertime: ks Kobe...

[gts]

pepperoni mushrooms and black olives on thin crust, i haddinner as i said and i don't want to over do it... lol guys got watch his figure after all

[OldSchoolBBall]

I stand by what I said earlier, which is that Kobe has played further below his average standard of play in a greater percentage of his Finals appearances than anyone else ranked above or near him all-time.

Earl Monroe? Yeah, right -- do people compare Kobe with Monroe, who is ranked around #30-45 all-time, or do they compare him to players in the top 10-15 all-time? Karl Malone played below average in one of two Finals series, and even that series wasn't too bad as compared to his averages that year. None of these players:


MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russell
Hakeem
West
Duncan
Oscar
Dr. J
Moses
Pettit
Baylor
K. Malone
Barkley
Barry
Hondo
Isiah
DRob


...played as far below their average in as great a percentage of their Finals appearances as Kobe. Period. Fact. Call it what you will.

[gts]

pizza pizza... we should have an official insidehoops pizza naming contest

like you could have the poodle bark pizza

thick crust, no extras, total cheese with sour dill pickles

[Gingereffic]

I stand by what I said earlier, which is that Kobe has played further below his average standard of play in a greater percentage of his Finals appearances than anyone else ranked above or near him all-time.

Earl Monroe? Yeah, right -- do people compare Kobe with Monroe, who is ranked around #30-45 all-time, or do they compare him to players in the top 10-15 all-time? Karl Malone played below average in one of two Finals series, and even that series wasn't too bad as compared to his averages that year. None of these players:


MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russell
Hakeem
West
Duncan
Oscar
Dr. J
Moses
Pettit
Baylor
K. Malone
Barkley
Barry
Hondo
Isiah
DRob


...played as far below their average in as great a percentage of their Finals appearances as Kobe. Period. Fact. Call it what you will.



Hey nice post. But Kobe was sick in all those finals... :lol :hammertime:

[dynasty1978]

pepperoni mushrooms and black olives on thin crust, i haddinner as i said and i don't want to over do it... lol guys got watch his figure after all

To hell w/figure, go DEEP DISH my friend...grab the knife and fork. Of course, NY style has it's pluses because you can eat alot of it. Can anyone recommend some good pizza by the slice in Manhattan? And by good, I don't mean Rays.

[dynasty1978]

pizza pizza... we should have an official insidehoops pizza naming contest

like you could have the poodle bark pizza

thick crust, no extras, total cheese with sour dill pickles

Loki Pizza = any chicago deep dish w/your 23 favorite toppings. Add topping #24 and it's your A$$. :D

[gts]

To hell w/figure, go DEEP DISH my friend...grab the knife and fork. Of course, NY style has it's pluses because you can eat alot of it. Can anyone recommend some good pizza by the slice in Manhattan? And by good, I don't mean Rays.

try the loki pizza, aged muenster jordan cheese with spam..
you'll talk about it for years after its gone

[Da_Realist]

poodle whoever he is can't get close to me. I am just too smart and having watched over 38 years of bball I know what I have seen. I also have most playoff series on tape. So if you make me get them out I will punish you... I BE THE MAN ..... :pimp: :hammertime:

This sh!t is funny as hell. :oldlol: This dude says Kobe is the Biggest Choker in Finals History and he's still standing after 9 pages? Call him what you want, but it's obvious he watches basketball and I'm pretty sure he's seen these games recently. He just baited all Kobe fans on this board and no one can shut him down :oldlol:

I thought dude would be buried and gone by Page 2. Somebody's gonna have to go back and watch some of these games. You're not going to outsmart him with stats.

Btw, this is not trolling. He's coming with facts, quotes and his own analysis.

[Da_Realist]

try the loki pizza, aged muenster jordan cheese with spam..
you'll talk about it for years after its gone

:applause: :applause:

Even Loki's gotta admit that's funny :oldlol:

[dynasty1978]

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]no one can shut him down :oldlol:

QUOTE]

You can't reason with a maniac...let's talk Pizza.

[Gingereffic]

To hell w/figure, go DEEP DISH my friend...grab the knife and fork. Of course, NY style has it's pluses because you can eat alot of it. Can anyone recommend some good pizza by the slice in Manhattan? And by good, I don't mean Rays.


Been to NY a couple of times and there is a place on 13 and 6th ave to die for. Don't know if it is a Rays though... But the best pizza I have ever had was in Cincinatti. Believe it or not. Don't even remember the name of the place. The pizza was the best I have ever had. :hammertime:

[Da_Realist]

Been to NY a couple of times and there is a place on 13 and 6th ave to die for. Don't know if it is a Rays though... But the best pizza I have ever had was in Cincinatti. Believe it or not. Don't even remember the name of the place. The pizza was the best I have ever had. :hammertime:

Hell no. Giordano's in Chicago. Go to the one in Greektown. Best deep dish. Best THIN CRUST. They'll have to roll you outta there.

[Gingereffic]

This sh!t is funny as hell. :oldlol: This dude says Kobe is the Biggest Choker in Finals History and he's still standing after 9 pages? Call him what you want, but it's obvious he watches basketball and I'm pretty sure he's seen these games recently. He just baited all Kobe fans on this board and no one can shut him down :oldlol:

I thought dude would be buried and gone by Page 2. Somebody's gonna have to go back and watch some of these games. You're not going to outsmart him with stats.

Btw, this is not trolling. He's coming with facts, quotes and his own analysis.



DA REALIST, I think you deserve your name. Thanks for keeping it real... :cheers:


I am going to shut this place down myself. I actually think Kobe is a great player and so is Lebron but they are both Chokers in my opinion... Wade imo has done it at the highest level on the biggest stage. Lebron has choked but he was a lone star, Kobe has always had great talent along side of him. But still choked. EASYBREAZIE... LOL

[Kappy]

Been to NY a couple of times and there is a place on 13 and 6th ave to die for. Don't know if it is a Rays though... But the best pizza I have ever had was in Cincinatti. Believe it or not. Don't even remember the name of the place. The pizza was the best I have ever had. :hammertime:


Cincinnati has the BEST chili too ....... "Skyline Chili"!!!! :rockon:

[Gingereffic]

Cincinnati has the BEST chili too ....... "Skyline Chili"!!!! :rockon:


Been there too. Great. I will NOW stop posting on this kobe=bcifh thread. It is obvious Kobe was sick... :(

Do me a favor and don't make me come back. Good luck to everyone and to the few who keep it real ,Keep it up.... IF I COME BACK IT WILL BE TO ATTACK ,NEVER DO I LACK , SMACK FOR THE FEW WHO DON'T KNOW THE TRU.......I am going to get some pizza... :hammertime: MY FINAL POST...

[DonDadda59]

This sh!t is funny as hell. :oldlol: This dude says Kobe is the Biggest Choker in Finals History and he's still standing after 9 pages? Call him what you want, but it's obvious he watches basketball and I'm pretty sure he's seen these games recently. He just baited all Kobe fans on this board and no one can shut him down :oldlol:

I thought dude would be buried and gone by Page 2. Somebody's gonna have to go back and watch some of these games. You're not going to outsmart him with stats.

Btw, this is not trolling. He's coming with facts, quotes and his own analysis.

Yeah, he may not do it in the most diplomatic way possible, but the man knows what he's talking about. All of his points are 100% valid. There are just some people out there who have disturbing blind, delusional worship of certain athletes and think of them as emaculate, infallible, devine beings and overlook or try to make excuses for their blatant shortcomings. He's repeatedly said he thinks Kobe is in fact a great player, but that he's turned in some of the worst finals performances by a superstar in the history of the game, which I agree with wholeheartedly. The facts, footage, and stats back all of this up. He's clearly watched enough basketball to know when someone is bull****ting when they say something like Kobe guarded Iverson when it was clearly mainly Fisher and famously, Tyron Lue (I remember that finals series vividly, that shot were Iverson stepped over Lue was classic). So don't be so emotional Kobe homers, Ginger is just doing what this forum was created for- discussing basketball.

[donxcore]

i guess we'll find out during the finals :confusedshrug:

[andgar923]

I dunno.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y

[gpfanz]

Phil's quote. Kobe is a callous gunslinger..

Callous gunslinger that choked in the Finals yes.. :D

[sic]

I dont know about the biggest choker, but kobe sure has been a choker in the finals.

[juju151111]

no you didnt. :hammertime:
I thought you said Kobe is better then MJ.Why does his finals pale in comparison?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Brooklyn has the best pizza joints in the U.S.
(note: I much prefer thin crust)

[El Seano]

i see its that time of the year.. i mean month.. i mean week... i mean day.

This is pretty much all the answering this question deserves.

[Gingereffic]

This is pretty much all the answering this question deserves.


If you attack my posts I will come back and really put a CHOKER LABEL ON KOBE... Please spare you and your Kobephiles the destruction... :hammertime: :rockon:

[Marlo Stanfield]

anybody have his stats for all his Finals games?

His game logs are here.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

[TheWitness]

Your boy against the Spurs.

i dont think so, the first game of that series was awful for james but he redeemed himself on the following games eventhough it was a clear losing series...

while kobe had shaq in his prime against the pistons and still choked... the funny thing is that after the series shaq and kobe blamed each other for the awful performance...

[Laker4Lyfe]

Yes Kobe is the biggest choker, he's anti clutch, he's a ball hog, he's not a team player, etc... etc... etc ... etc...

[TheWitness]

i have nothing against kobe, he and james are even good friends...

kobe might be a choker in the finals even on the last finals appearance against the celtics...

i think he is a better player now and come to think of it, James Posey who was a good defender was guarding him on that series...

Kobe is still a finals choker but certainly is not the biggest...

[LebrickJames84']

he has won 3 rings he is a real choker.

[stephanieg]

The biggest chokers in the finals are Dennis Johnson (0-14 in game 7 of the '78 finals vs. Washington) and John Starks in game 7 against Houston in '94 (2-16). What Kobe did against Detroit wasn't really choking, just being a pompous ass thinking he could do it himself. He actually hit a super clutch shot that series to win one game. Versus Boston he was overmatched and displayed poor decision making at points but he actually had plenty of clutch moments (hitting the shot over Ray Ray, poking the ball from Pierce).

There's also Dirk in '06, Ewing in '94 (unless you want to say it was ALL Hakeem, but I don't believe that), and Malone against Chicago. The Big E and T-mac always do well the first three quarters and then disappear in the fourth, although you could say they're just dead tired by that point and trying to force it. Lebron laid a huge egg in '07. Ralph Sampson didn't do too well down the stretch in '86 from what I remember.

Shout out to Nick Anderson ofc.

[Gingereffic]

The biggest chokers in the finals are Dennis Johnson (0-14 in game 7 of the '78 finals vs. Washington) and John Starks in game 7 against Houston in '94 (2-16). What Kobe did against Detroit wasn't really choking, just being an ass. Versus Boston he was overmatched. He actually had plenty of clutch moments (hitting the shot over Ray Ray, poking the ball from Pierce).

There's also Dirk in '06 and Malone against Chicago. The Big E and T-mac always well the first three quarters and then disappeared in the fourth, although you could say they're just dead tired by that point and trying to force it.



You brought back my thread so I will have to tell you why Kobe is the biggest choker in finals history... First he choked in 4 of 5 finals. Why you say because he has stunk in 4 of 5 finals. He has singlehandedly lost a finals series in 2004 vs my Pistons. He has underperformed in every finals except the NETS and than Last year he plays only one Kobe like game and the biggest reason is he lets his team who is just as talented as the Celtics lose a game in which his Lakers were up by 24. Some teams lose Finals because they are just overmatched some lose because they choke. The Lakers choked last year and Kobe was the biggest choker of them all.... :hammertime: 37,40,37,40 are BCIFH percentages... Can you say chokkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.... Sorry Kobe =BCIFH... But I also think he is the best player in todays game so be happy Kobephiles... Keep it reallllll...

[Gingereffic]

Yes Kobe is the biggest choker, he's anti clutch, he's a ball hog, he's not a team player, etc... etc... etc ... etc...



THANKS FOR AGREEING..... :rockon:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Let's not forget LEBRON'S performance against the Spurs:
35.5% FG shooting
5.75 turnovers per game!

[c_az_a]

Let's not forget LEBRON'S performance against the Spurs:
35.5% FG shooting
5.75 turnovers per game!

Kobe 0 for 5 finals MVP.

LeBron 0 for 1 finals MVP.

Kobe > LeBron (possibly because Kobe had prime Shaq, not Big Z). D-Wade won with Shaq (w/Finals MVP), so can Kobe being numero dos.

[Gingereffic]

Let's not forget LEBRON'S performance against the Spurs:
35.5% FG shooting
5.75 turnovers per game!


Those are bad but Kobe has had worse series and he played with shaq... In 04 Kobe shot 37 percent, had more a 1-1 assist to turnover ratio, and singlehandedly lost that series.. 22 PTS A GREAT 2.8 REBOUNDS AND 4.4 ASSISTS IN 04. Here are some comments after the game.. :lol



I'm very upset," said O'Neal, who made 16-of-21 shots. "We let one slip away. ... We had it, just in the fourth quarter, we made some mistakes."

One of those mistakes was not giving the ball enough to O'Neal. As they have throughout the series, the Pistons shut down most of O'Neal's teammates and bothered Bryant, who made just 8-of-25 shots as he fired away at will and made Detroit's job much easier.

"Some of them were good and some of them stunk," said Bryant, who didn't shoot a free throw until late in the fourth quarter. "That's pretty much every game with me."
:lol

[c_az_a]

Those are bad but Kobe has had worse series and he played with shaq... In 04 Kobe shot 37 percent, had more a 1-1 assist to turnover ratio, and singlehandedly lost that series.. 22 PTS A GREAT 2.8 REBOUNDS AND 4.4 ASSISTS IN 04. Here are some comments after the game.. :lol



I'm very upset," said O'Neal, who made 16-of-21 shots. "We let one slip away. ... We had it, just in the fourth quarter, we made some mistakes."

One of those mistakes was not giving the ball enough to O'Neal. As they have throughout the series, the Pistons shut down most of O'Neal's teammates and bothered Bryant, who made just 8-of-25 shots as he fired away at will and made Detroit's job much easier.

"Some of them were good and some of them stunk," said Bryant, who didn't shoot a free throw until late in the fourth quarter. "That's pretty much every game with me."
:lol

Kobe doesn't have his best performance when it counts. See 81 points versus the Raptors (lottery bound). See 3-1 lead turn into 3-4 series defeat (in the same company of T-Mac | Game Seven, Kobe couldn't buy a second half bucket even though he bought plenty against the Raptors. Game Seven versus one of the worse defensive teams Suns coached by Mike D'Antoni). Have great big men to play with but still shoot an awful percentage (i guess defenses are made for Kobe to chuck it up).

[gotbacon23]

The biggest chokers in the finals are Dennis Johnson (0-14 in game 7 of the '78 finals vs. Washington) and John Starks in game 7 against Houston in '94 (2-16). What Kobe did against Detroit wasn't really choking, just being a pompous ass thinking he could do it himself. He actually hit a super clutch shot that series to win one game. Versus Boston he was overmatched and displayed poor decision making at points but he actually had plenty of clutch moments (hitting the shot over Ray Ray, poking the ball from Pierce).

john starks gets so much crap for that game 7 but fact of the matter is, if patrick ewing didn't suck ass in games 1-6, then game 7 wouldn't have happened and the knicks would have that ring. john starks had 2 horrible games that series (game 1 and game 7) but was solid in the other 5 games. i think ewing should be considered as one of the biggest chokers for his whole series versus olajuwon.

starks averaged 19.3 ppg 6.5 apg 3.3 rpg 2.8 turnovers on 42% shooting and 41% threes in games 1-6 and that includes a terrible game 1. if you take away game 1, starks averaged 21.0 ppg 7.2 apg 3.6 rpg 2.6 turnovers on 49% shooting and 45% threes.

ewing's shooting numbers for that series:

game 1: 10-26 (38.5%) loss
game 2: 7-19 (36.8%) win
game 3: 9-29 (31.0%) loss
game 4: 8-28 (28.6%) win
game 5: 11-21 (52.4%) win
game 6: 6-20 (30.0%) loss
game 7: 7-17 (41.2%) loss
total: 58-160 (36.3%)

stark's shooting numbers for that series:
game 1: 3-18 (16.7%) loss
game 2: 6-11 (54.5%) win
game 3: 6-16 (37.5%) loss
game 4: 6-11 (54.5%) win
game 5: 7-14: (50.0%) win
game 6: 9-18 (50.0%) loss
game 7: 2-18 (11.1%) loss
total: 39-106 (36.7%)
even if you factor in stark's game 7, starks still shot better then ewing did, even though he was shooting from the permiter as an undersized 2.

so yeah, starks did choke BIG TIME in game 7. that can't be denied. but maybe if ewing didn't throw up a 9 for 29 game, or a 6 for 20 game (games that starks played well) there wouldnt have even been a game 7 and we wouldnt be talking about starks. and vice versa, maybe if starks didn't throw up duds in game 1 and game 7 i wouldn't bring up the point about ewing. its amazing to see how the knicks actually won a game where ewing shot 8 for 28. so, if we are going to say starks choked, wouldnt it be fair to say ewing choked as well?

[Gingereffic]

john starks gets so much crap for that game 7 but fact of the matter is, if patrick ewing didn't suck ass in games 1-6, then game 7 wouldn't have happened and the knicks would have that ring. john starks had 2 horrible games that series (game 1 and game 7) but was solid in the other 5 games. i think ewing should be considered as one of the biggest chokers for his whole series versus olajuwon.

starks averaged 19.3 ppg 6.5 apg 3.3 rpg 2.8 turnovers on 42% shooting and 41% threes in games 1-6 and that includes a terrible game 1. if you take away game 1, starks averaged 21.0 ppg 7.2 apg 3.6 rpg 2.6 turnovers on 49% shooting and 45% threes.

ewing's shooting numbers for that series:

game 1: 10-26 (38.5%) loss
game 2: 7-19 (36.8%) win
game 3: 9-29 (31.0%) loss
game 4: 8-28 (28.6%) win
game 5: 11-21 (52.4%) win
game 6: 6-20 (30.0%) loss
game 7: 7-17 (41.2%) loss
total: 58-160 (36.3%)

stark's shooting numbers for that series:
game 1: 3-18 (16.7%) loss
game 2: 6-11 (54.5%) win
game 3: 6-16 (37.5%) loss
game 4: 6-11 (54.5%) win
game 5: 7-14: (50.0%) win
game 6: 9-18 (50.0%) loss
game 7: 2-18 (11.1%) loss
total: 39-106 (36.7%)
even if you factor in stark's game 7, starks still shot better then ewing did, even though he was shooting from the permiter as an undersized 2.

so yeah, starks did choke BIG TIME in game 7. that can't be denied. but maybe if ewing didn't throw up a 9 for 29 game, or a 6 for 20 game (games that starks played well) there wouldnt have even been a game 7 and we wouldnt be talking about starks. and vice versa, maybe if starks didn't throw up duds in game 1 and game 7 i wouldn't bring up the point about ewing. its amazing to see how the knicks actually won a game where ewing shot 8 for 28. so, if we are going to say starks choked, wouldnt it be fair to say ewing choked as well?




Too bad for Kobephiles Ewing didn't make it to more finals. If not he could have been a candidate for BCIFH alongside Kobe. But he only appeared in 1 Finals and at least Ewing Played great on the defensive side that series. But Hakeem was the man in that series. Kids just don't know how great this guy was. He would eat up DUncan so easy... It would be too funny.. :hammertime:

[EllEffEll]

I say this having nothing but admiration for him as one of my two favorite Lakers (and therefore NBA players :D ) ever, but if I am being honest, I would have to say the biggest choker in NBA finals history would have to be none other than "Mr. Clutch" Jerry West. His Laker teams lost in the finals 8 times and won only once. If you considered only his finals results, his nickname should be "Mr. Choke". To top it off, it was not only that they lost in the finals 8 times, but how they lost some of those series.

Kobe has been on two teams that lost in the finals. Kobe certainly played a part in 2004's debacle, but there is plenty of blame to go around in that one :violin: and last year, they weren't looking like they should win it anyway.

When it comes to choking and not getting it done in the finals, Jerry West is in a league of his own with Elgin Baylor the only other deserving of an argument.

As for the whole KB/MJ thing, it's funny to see how many can't seem to remember how many times the Bulls (and MJ) couldn't even get to the finals before finally breaking through and winning it all for the first time when MJ was 28 years old. Prior to that, MJ would score lots of points and his teams would lose. Sound familiar?

Of course, how many players are even good/fortunate enough to have made it to the finals enough times to breathe that air?

[gotbacon23]

Too bad for Kobephiles Ewing didn't make it to more finals. If not he could have been a candidate for BCIFH alongside Kobe. But he only appeared in 1 Finals and at least Ewing Played great on the defensive side that series. But Hakeem was the man in that series. Kids just don't know how great this guy was. He would eat up DUncan so easy... It would be too funny.. :hammertime:

olajuwon did play great, but i dont know if he would have eaten alive duncan. duncan and olajuwon are both top 10-15 players ever, whereas ewing is more like top 30-50. look what shaq did against olajuwon the next year- 28.3 ppg 12.5 rpg 6.3 apg 2.5 bpg 59% shooting. olajuwon, o'neal, and duncan are on a completely different level than ewing, which says a lot cause ewing was great. so just because ewing was shut down by olajuwon doesn't mean duncan would be. duncan >> ewing.

[Gingereffic]

I say this having nothing but admiration for him as one of my two favorite Lakers (and therefore NBA players :D ) ever, but if I am being honest, I would have to say the biggest choker in NBA finals history would have to be none other than "Mr. Clutch" Jerry West. His Laker teams lost in the finals 8 times and won only once. If you considered only his finals results, his nickname should be "Mr. Choke". To top it off, it was not only that they lost in the finals 8 times, but how they lost some of those series.

Kobe has been on two teams that lost in the finals. Kobe certainly played a part in 2004's debacle, but there is plenty of blame to go around in that one :violin: and last year, they weren't looking like they should win it anyway.

When it comes to choking and not getting it done in the finals, Jerry West is in a league of his own with Elgin Baylor the only other deserving of an argument.

Of course, how many players are even good/fortunate enough to have made it to the finals enough times to breathe that air?



WOW BINGO... I have been waiting for this response.. This brings into light that neither Jerry West or Kobe are anything near the Great MJ. Both in my opinion are some of the biggest chokers in NBA history. Both are considered great clutch players but neither have really been great in the Big time. But WEST put up some of the best stats in the Finals.. Kobe has not. HMMM I will let the laker fans decide... 1 KOBE 2. WEST. OR 1. WEST 2. KOBE



Either way both mentor and pupil are the two biggest chokers in finals history. I am surprised no one came up with this earlier. But then again most laker fans know nothing about the game.. ASALAMALAKEM. KOBE=BCIFH:hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

olajuwon did play great, but i dont know if he would have eaten alive duncan. duncan and olajuwon are both top 10-15 players ever, whereas ewing is more like top 30-50. look what shaq did against olajuwon the next year- 28.3 ppg 12.5 rpg 6.3 apg 2.5 bpg 59% shooting. olajuwon, o'neal, and duncan are on a completely different level than ewing, which says a lot cause ewing was great. so just because ewing was shut down by olajuwon doesn't mean duncan would be. duncan >> ewing.


I have to say I disagree. I think DUncan is the second best player of A.J. era. After Jordan. Shaq being the best but, I think Duncan had no chance of guarding Hakeem and his vast amount of moves. Duncan is a great player more because he is smart and usually doesn't try to do toO much. Therefor playing a smart game. Alot of players don't use that approach anymore. They are either MJ or Nothing... Duncan has had problems scoring vs a old Malone or even vs some teams like The Cavs in the finals. I think alot of DUncan but he has been lucky enough to play inthe same system with the same coach and some very good talent for most of his years.... Hakeem never played alongside a David Robinson, yea I know sAMPSON, but not the same. He never had a parker or ginoboli.. :hammertime:

[c_az_a]

How can you lose two times in the NBA finals with Shaq, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Gasol, Odom, Horry, Fisher, Phil Jackson)? Ask Kobe. Did Jordan lose with Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Phil Jackson, Luc Longley, Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant)? Yet Jordan on those teams were 6 for 6. He was the best player on his team 6 for 6. Kobe, on the other hand, 3 out of 5. He was the second best player on his team. It will take him at least 11 attempts to match Jordan for finals MVP. Kobe could win all the all star MVPs he want. But who actually plays in the all star game? Kobe. But when it matters, "defer to teammates." Kobe did set a record for finals exit. Biggest blowout in the history. How can the best player in the game playing with Odom and Gasol and a supporting cast who helped launch a 20+ point lead only for Kobe to take over and Celtics with a massive comeback?

[Da_Realist]

WOW BINGO... I have been waiting for this response.. This brings into light that neither Jerry West or Kobe are anything near the Great MJ. Both in my opinion are some of the biggest chokers in NBA history. Both are considered great clutch players but neither have really been great in the Big time. But WEST put up some of the best stats in the Finals.. Kobe has not. HMMM I will let the laker fans decide... 1 KOBE 2. WEST. OR 1. WEST 2. KOBE



Either way both mentor and pupil are the two biggest chokers in finals history. I am surprised no one came up with this earlier. But then again most laker fans know nothing about the game.. ASALAMALAKEM. KOBE=BCIFH:hammertime:

What are Jerry West's Finals stats? I know he won MVP even though he lost one of those years...

[gotbacon23]

I have to say I disagree. I think DUncan is the second best player of A.J. era. After Jordan. Shaq being the best but, I think Duncan had no chance of guarding Hakeem and his vast amount of moves. Duncan is a great player more because he is smart and usually doesn't try to do toO much. Therefor playing a smart game. Alot of players don't use that approach anymore. They are either MJ or Nothing... Duncan has had problems scoring vs a old Malone or even vs some teams like The Cavs in the finals. I think alot of DUncan but he has been lucky enough to play inthe same system with the same coach and some very good talent for most of his years.... Hakeem never played alongside a David Robinson, yea I know sAMPSON, but not the same. He never had a parker or ginoboli.. :hammertime:


i agree with this- my point was more about offense. i think duncan could have scored on olajuwon with greater success than ewing scored on olajuwon. nobody could stop prime olajuwon though.

[Gingereffic]

i agree with this- my point was more about offense. i think duncan could have scored on olajuwon with greater success than ewing scored on olajuwon. nobody could stop prime olajuwon though.



I don't think that is true. Duncan does most of his damage from pick and rolls and up and unders. Hakeem would pin that crap. Too bad we could not watch this...:hammertime:

[Rasheed1]

I wouldnt call him a choker, but he is hardly as clutch as people pretend he is...its almost like he believes his own hype and then tries to go out there do too much....


He is a great scorer with alot of skill... He isnt the best player in the game and he is no where near the caliber player Mj was...


his selfishness can facilitate bad moments because he tries too hard from time to time... but not a choker

[Gingereffic]

I wouldnt call him a choker, but he is hardly as clutch as people pretend he is...its almost like he believes his own hype and then tries to go out there do too much....


He is a great scorer with alot of skill... He isnt the best player in the game and he is no where near the caliber player Mj was...


his selfishness can facilitate bad moments because he tries too hard from time to time... but not a choker



I agree with most of your statement. And yea Kobe isn't a choker most of the times. But in the FInals he is the biggest choker so far. Well you can add his mentor to that list as well...:hammertime:

[EllEffEll]

What are Jerry West's Finals stats? I know he won MVP even though he lost one of those years...

Jerry West had some very good stats in some of those games, but not all of them. Take Game 7 of the 66 finals when he and Elgin shot a combined 3 for 18 in the first half and lost in spite of coming close at the end. The Lakers had very good chances to take some of those series like 61/62 when they led the finals series 3-2 and fiddled away Game 6 at home and ultimately the series.

Then to cap off the prior debacles at the hands of the Celtics, the 1970 Knicks get all hyped because Willis Reed comes out and drains a shot before hobbling off and another Laker heartbreak ensues. Some of it could be blamed on inury and exhaustion, but the simple fact is that the Lakers choked out of the finals year after year despite having chances to put them away several times and the foremost leaders of those teams were Jerry West and Elgin Baylor. . . . . . EIGHT TIMES!

West did win a championship once, but that team was led in finals scoring by Gail Goodrich and the series MVP was Wilt Chaimberlain.

Sure, being a Laker fan, it hurts to admit it. But if I can't be objective I have no credibility.

I still say that KB's place in NBA (and I hope finals) history still has several chapters to be written and to compare his stats with player's whose careers are finished is speculative at best as he does have a legitimate chance to prove many wrong. . . . . . or right. But at this point, it is speculative and not a done deal.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I agree with most of your statement. And yea Kobe isn't a choker most of the times. But in the FInals he is the biggest choker so far. Well you can add his mentor to that list as well...:hammertime:

Actually, in Kobe's 5 trips to the Finals, he has NEVER had a Finals series as bad as Lebron's 1 trip to the Finals.

Even Kobe's worst series (against Detroit) he hit 38% fg with 2.8 turnovers.
That compares to Lebron's 35.5% fg and 5.75 turnovers.

Thus, Lebron is the bigger choker so far.

[shadow]

I wouldnt call him a choker, but he is hardly as clutch as people pretend he is...its almost like he believes his own hype and then tries to go out there do too much....


He is a great scorer with alot of skill... He isnt the best player in the game and he is no where near the caliber player Mj was...


his selfishness can facilitate bad moments because he tries too hard from time to time... but not a choker


That's a mostly fair assessment of Kobe. I do disagree with your second statement. Normally he's pretty damn clutch and he's been doing it over a number of seasons now. I don't think he's overhyped THAT much in that department and rep is well earned. He was deadly last year in the playoffs up till the finals.

Anway about his finals series I don't think he's a choker but he's hardly been dominant. I'd consider 2004 an aberration due to the internal struglles but in 2008 he definitely did not step up when he was needed the most. Statistically he was slightly better than the finals mvp but in games 4 & 6 he was a big flop (whereas pierce stepped up twice during the series in the 4th). IMO its fair to say he choked last year.

The 3-peat years despite the average stats I don't think he choked. He wasn't required to be a dominant scorer but he was required to be a closer which he did very well, espcially considering Shaq's poor FT shooting. A lot of the poor FG% is mostly due to his horrible shot selection which... well chucking long shots with two guys in your face never did anyone's FG% any good.

I'm expecting much better from Kobe if we make the finals this year. He definitely needs to step up if & when required.

[west]

for a player of his caliber,yea,isn't he suppose to be the best player in the leauge???

[Kobe24]

Terrible thread. InsideHoops fell off.

[glidedrxlr22]

Terrible thread. InsideHoops fell off.

Anything that goes against your god or your team is automatically discounted?! The proof is in the numbers. Deal with it.

[B-Easy]

im sure theres been worst, but he must be up there in terms of elite players...

[raptorfan_dr07]

Jerry West had some very good stats in some of those games, but not all of them. Take Game 7 of the 66 finals when he and Elgin shot a combined 3 for 18 in the first half and lost in spite of coming close at the end. The Lakers had very good chances to take some of those series like 61/62 when they led the finals series 3-2 and fiddled away Game 6 at home and ultimately the series.

Then to cap off the prior debacles at the hands of the Celtics, the 1970 Knicks get all hyped because Willis Reed comes out and drains a shot before hobbling off and another Laker heartbreak ensues. Some of it could be blamed on inury and exhaustion, but the simple fact is that the Lakers choked out of the finals year after year despite having chances to put them away several times and the foremost leaders of those teams were Jerry West and Elgin Baylor. . . . . . EIGHT TIMES!

West did win a championship once, but that team was led in finals scoring by Gail Goodrich and the series MVP was Wilt Chaimberlain.

Sure, being a Laker fan, it hurts to admit it. But if I can't be objective I have no credibility.

I still say that KB's place in NBA (and I hope finals) history still has several chapters to be written and to compare his stats with player's whose careers are finished is speculative at best as he does have a legitimate chance to prove many wrong. . . . . . or right. But at this point, it is speculative and not a done deal.

Pretty good post. I know Jerry West has the label as Mr. Clutch but he did come up short quite a few times. It's good to see a real Laker fan here.

[Gingereffic]

Actually, in Kobe's 5 trips to the Finals, he has NEVER had a Finals series as bad as Lebron's 1 trip to the Finals.

Even Kobe's worst series (against Detroit) he hit 38% fg with 2.8 turnovers.
That compares to Lebron's 35.5% fg and 5.75 turnovers.

Thus, Lebron is the bigger choker so far.


I would say that Lebron probably had more assists than turnovers , also he was the main player on his team with really no other talent. Hughes had a broken ankle and played one game i think and Z was missing shots he usually made. They crowded the middle and forced him to make jumpers which he missed. You are wrong, Kobe shot .376 MADE ONLY 4 OF 23 three point shots, 22 assists to 18 turnovers.. While shaq dominated Kobe would not pass the ball to him.


I'm very upset," said O'Neal, who made 16-of-21 shots. "We let one slip away. ... We had it, just in the fourth quarter, we made some mistakes."

One of those mistakes was not giving the ball enough to O'Neal. As they have throughout the series, the Pistons shut down most of O'Neal's teammates and bothered Bryant, who made just 8-of-25 shots as he fired away at will and made Detroit's job much easier.

"Some of them were good and some of them stunk," said Bryant, who didn't shoot a free throw until late in the fourth quarter. "That's pretty much every game with me."

That last statement is priceless... THANK YOU KOBE FROM A DETROIT FAN...


Lebron was bad but at least he was the main player. Kobe has been bad and he has had the most dominant force the league has seen since WILT... That is crazy. The next year Wade dominated the same exact team... You can't win I tell you.. The truth always wins.. KOBE=BCIFH..

22 pg ,35.5, 6.75 ass, 5.75 turn, and better three point shooting than kobe. But at least Lebron hit the boards and avg 7 rebounds. Kobe had a wopping 2 rebounds a game.. lol
lebron 27 assists -23 turnovers and 4-20 in three pointers.

Both chokers but KOBE IS BY FAR IN ANOTHER LEAGUE. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU consider he was playing with three other hall of famers and his team was a heavy fav. Kobe looked out and gave my team a gift in 2004. thanks again.


Worse of all is how Kobe let his team lose by 39 in last years finals. Wait maybe it was the game where KOBE WET THE BED. Or maybe it was just Kobe dissapearing in his prime vs the Celtics. Both teams had good talent so there is no excuses... :hammertime:

[Gingereffic]

Terrible thread. InsideHoops fell off.


a kobephile would write that,, but i tried to let this thread go to sleep but others wanted to keep posting. kobe=bcifh:roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Actually, in Kobe's 5 trips to the Finals, he has NEVER had a Finals series as bad as Lebron's 1 trip to the Finals.

Even Kobe's worst series (against Detroit) he hit 38% fg with 2.8 turnovers.
That compares to Lebron's 35.5% fg and 5.75 turnovers.

Thus, Lebron is the bigger choker so far.

How many assists for each of them? How many ppg?

[Jacks3]

LMAO at all these Kobe hate threads being bumped.Haters have no ammunition for attacking Kobe now so they have to resort to the past.:roll:

[TmacsRockets]

My conclusion is that he is in the running. Plenty of guys have played bad in one finals, some guys had even played poorly in two finals but Kobe has been pretty bad in 4 of 5 Finals he has played in. So far his shooting percentages have been 37 percent vs Indiana while Marc Jackson was guarding him. He shot 40 percent vs the Sixers the following year, then had a very good showing vs the Nets and shot around 50 percent. But here comes the ones that really put Kobe in a league all his own. Kobe shot and single handedly gave my Pistons the 2004 title. 37 percent shooting for kobe while Shaq shot around 65 Percent for the series... In 2008 THE Lakers were again in the Finals and Kobe shot a 40 percent. :hammertime:

This is great analysis here. I don't like to bash Kobe but this is good stuff here.

[Allstar24]

Which idiot felt the need to dig up this garbage? :hammerhead:

Kobe is not a choker...he just happened to run into great defensive teams hell bent on stopping him (Celtics and Pistons). I'm sure he could average 36 points per game if he played the Mavs in the finals.

[Huey Freeman]

low life mother fcuker....take ur fcuking troll somewhere else....
You might want to wipe some of Kobe's jizz hanging off your chin.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I'm sure he could average 36 points per game if he played the Mavs in the finals.

You're "sure of it" because you're a Kobe groupie. Kobe has never even averaged 35 ppg in any series in his entire playoff career save for one (vs. Sac in 2001, 35.0 ppg). But somehow, despite him never doing it even once to any team over 120+ playoff games, you're "sure" of it.

And people wonder why they get called "groupies." :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Loki calling someone else a groupie...some great irony right there...

[Allstar24]

You're "sure of it" because you're a Kobe groupie. Kobe has never even averaged 35 ppg in any series in his entire playoff career save for one (vs. Sac in 2001, 35.0 ppg). But somehow, despite him never doing it even once to any team over 120+ playoff games, you're "sure" of it.

And people wonder why they get called "groupies." :oldlol:
Reason I said it is because Kobe owns the Mavs...he's had multiple monster games against them. Its not fair to call him a choker just because he couldn't average 36 PPG against great defensive teams like the Celtics or Pistons. Anyway, why am I explaining myself to the biggest MJ groupie of this forum.

[c_az_a]

Reason I said it is because Kobe owns the Mavs...he's had multiple monster games against them. Its not fair to call him a choker just because he couldn't average 36 PPG against great defensive teams like the Celtics or Pistons. Anyway, why am I explaining myself to the biggest MJ groupie of this forum.

Mavs were owned by the Warriors (8th seed) and D-Wade (free throw line). But you have to remember, Warriors and D-Wade did in the playoffs. Kobe, on the other hand, did it in the regular season. Remember D'Antoni Suns. They did it in the regular season. But like Kobe, they can't do it when it counts (see last two finals, game seven in the first round after blowing 3-1 lead). To say Kobe took his team to the NBA finals. You would have to ignore the likes of Gasol, Odom, and a supporting cast who under the leadership of Derek Fisher took the Lakers back to the NBA finals.

[1~Gibson~1]

I dont see how either is a choker. Kobe has 3 rings and it was basically LeBron vs. the Spurs :confusedshrug:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Reason I said it is because Kobe owns the Mavs...he's had multiple monster games against them.

Yeah, Kobe's pretty good at having great regular season games. <snicker>


Its not fair to call him a choker just because he couldn't average 36 PPG against great defensive teams like the Celtics or Pistons. Anyway, why am I explaining myself to the biggest MJ groupie of this forum.

I didn't call him a "choker." He isn't. What he is, however, is the player most highly ranked historically who has played further below his average level of play in a great percentage of his Finals appearances than any other player ranked above or near him all-time. That's a fact. No one ranked near or above Kobe all-time has played as far below their usual standard in as great a percentage of their Finals appearances as Kobe. That doesn't make him a "choker," but it is what it is.

[LA_Showtime]

Mavs were owned by the Warriors (8th seed) and D-Wade (free throw line). But you have to remember, Warriors and D-Wade did in the playoffs. Kobe, on the other hand, did it in the regular season. Remember D'Antoni Suns. They did it in the regular season. But like Kobe, they can't do it when it counts (see last two finals, game seven in the first round after blowing 3-1 lead). To say Kobe took his team to the NBA finals. You would have to ignore the likes of Gasol, Odom, and a supporting cast who under the leadership of Derek Fisher took the Lakers back to the NBA finals.

1) Kobe led the Lakers to the NBA Finals and choked.

2) Kobe was carried to the NBA Finals by Gasol, Odom, and a great supporting cast.

You can't have it both ways. Either Kobe led the Lakers to the Finals and they got their asses handed to them or Kobe was carried to the Finals (or "took the Lakers back to the Finals") and they choked as a team.

I don't think Kobe choked in the Finals. He didn't play well, but then again neither did the rest of the Lakers. I put most of the blame on him because he is the leader, but he did what he could. Kobe isn't and never will be MJ, so I don't understand why he has to get bashed all the time.

[Jacks3]

Mavs were owned by the Warriors (8th seed) and D-Wade (free throw line). But you have to remember, Warriors and D-Wade did in the playoffs. Kobe, on the other hand, did it in the regular season. Remember D'Antoni Suns. They did it in the regular season. But like Kobe, they can't do it when it counts (see last two finals, game seven in the first round after blowing 3-1 lead). To say Kobe took his team to the NBA finals. You would have to ignore the likes of Gasol, Odom, and a supporting cast who under the leadership of Derek Fisher took the Lakers back to the NBA finals.
Dude averaged 30/6/5 on 50% shooting in the playoffs last year. Yeah, he can't do it when it counts.:rolleyes:

[LA_Showtime]

As a Laker fan, Kobe disappoints me when he plays selfish basketball. I don't mind when he has a bad shooting night (or series) because I know that in most cases he'll come to play. What really drives me nuts is when Kobe starts to play Kobe-ball instead of trying to involve his teammates. I don't know if he's selfish or if it's his competitive nature but he still occasionally has those nights where he just doesn't look for his teammates. I can confidently say Kobe would shoot everytime down the court but realizes he can't win that way. Don't get me wrong, he's gotten a lot better, but it just doesn't come naturally to him and he doesn't do it 100% of the time.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I would say that Lebron probably had more assists than turnovers , also he was the main player on his team with really no other talent. Hughes had a broken ankle and played one game i think and Z was missing shots he usually made. They crowded the middle and forced him to make jumpers which he missed. You are wrong, Kobe shot .376 MADE ONLY 4 OF 23 three point shots, 22 assists to 18 turnovers.. While shaq dominated Kobe would not pass the ball to him.

35.5% fg and a whopping 5.75 turnovers per game.
Make whatever excuses you want, but Lebron's pathetic effort ranks as one of the biggest Finals choke-jobs ever.

In 5 trips to the Finals, Kobe NEVER shot that badly and he NEVER avg that many turnovers.

[oh the horror]

As a Laker fan, Kobe disappoints me when he plays selfish basketball. I don't mind when he has a bad shooting night (or series) because I know that in most cases he'll come to play. What really drives me nuts is when Kobe starts to play Kobe-ball instead of trying to involve his teammates. I don't know if he's selfish or if it's his competitive nature but he still occasionally has those nights where he just doesn't look for his teammates. I can confidently say Kobe would shoot everytime down the court but realizes he can't win that way. Don't get me wrong, he's gotten a lot better, but it just doesn't come naturally to him and he doesn't do it 100% of the time.



Agreed. He still does it too, which is surprising at this point. You can see it happen if frustration mounts when they are losing a game, and or series.

[Hoggle]

35.5% fg and a whopping 5.75 turnovers per game.
Make whatever excuses you want, but Lebron's pathetic effort ranks as one of the biggest Finals choke-jobs ever.

In 5 trips to the Finals, Kobe NEVER shot that badly and he NEVER avg that many turnovers.

In defense for Lebron, I believe he was guarded by Bowen, and he likes to drive, so driving into Duncan doesn't exactly make it easy. When you have to go through 2 of the 1st team all defensive players, it will make it a lot harder then just going through one good defender and one mediocre defender.

Overall Kobes 5 final appearances definitely win the biggest Choker of all time. To be a choker I would think that you would have to do bad more then just once, otherwise you would just have to be called a choke.

[OldSchoolBBall]

In 5 trips to the Finals, Kobe NEVER shot that badly and he NEVER avg that many turnovers.

He's also never averaged the 6.5 apg that Lebron did.

[c_az_a]

Kobe-ball can't produce championship. That's what Gasol, Odom, Phil Jackson, Andrew Bynum, are for.


As a Laker fan, Kobe disappoints me when he plays selfish basketball. I don't mind when he has a bad shooting night (or series) because I know that in most cases he'll come to play. What really drives me nuts is when Kobe starts to play Kobe-ball instead of trying to involve his teammates. I don't know if he's selfish or if it's his competitive nature but he still occasionally has those nights where he just doesn't look for his teammates. I can confidently say Kobe would shoot everytime down the court but realizes he can't win that way. Don't get me wrong, he's gotten a lot better, but it just doesn't come naturally to him and he doesn't do it 100% of the time.

[dazed27]

Lebron is a choker just like kobe but he has only been in one final and has not played with great teammates. So while he is a choker he can't be close to Kobe who has choked with some of the best players ever by his side. Lebron's best teammate has been Z . :hammertime:

IF U SAY KOBE CHOKED 4 OUT OF 5 THAN HE WOULD BE A 80% CHOKER

BUT LEBRON CHOKED 1 OUT OF 1 SO HE IS A 100% CHOKER

[Gingereffic]

As a Laker fan, Kobe disappoints me when he plays selfish basketball. I don't mind when he has a bad shooting night (or series) because I know that in most cases he'll come to play. What really drives me nuts is when Kobe starts to play Kobe-ball instead of trying to involve his teammates. I don't know if he's selfish or if it's his competitive nature but he still occasionally has those nights where he just doesn't look for his teammates. I can confidently say Kobe would shoot everytime down the court but realizes he can't win that way. Don't get me wrong, he's gotten a lot better, but it just doesn't come naturally to him and he doesn't do it 100% of the time.



Excellent post. :cheers:
Kobe is a great player but I believe he could have gone down as one of the top8 if he just played his cards, the royal flush he came into the league with, better.... As for me he will have to at least win 2-3 titles now just to get into the top12-13. Great player but his mindset really has messed him up.

[Gingereffic]

IF U SAY KOBE CHOKED 4 OUT OF 5 THAN HE WOULD BE A 80% CHOKER

BUT LEBRON CHOKED 1 OUT OF 1 SO HE IS A 100% CHOKER



Or you could say Kobe choked 100 percent in 2000. 100 percent in 2001 . 10000000% in 2004 and 1000 percent in 2008. That is higher than 100 percent... :lol

[Gingereffic]

35.5% fg and a whopping 5.75 turnovers per game.
Make whatever excuses you want, but Lebron's pathetic effort ranks as one of the biggest Finals choke-jobs ever.

In 5 trips to the Finals, Kobe NEVER shot that badly and he NEVER avg that many turnovers.



I have showed Kobe has clearly played worse in 2000 and 2004. But a phile is not convinced. I guess he can't read. I clearly believe LebroN choked as well. But to say Lebron with no talent around him came up worse than KOBE who flat out gave my Pistons a title with SHaq playing great is just.. Well its just kobephileck..:confusedshrug:

[Godfather]

35.5% fg and a whopping 5.75 turnovers per game.
Make whatever excuses you want, but Lebron's pathetic effort ranks as one of the biggest Finals choke-jobs ever.

In 5 trips to the Finals, Kobe NEVER shot that badly and he NEVER avg that many turnovers.


Kobe Bryant NEVER had to play with Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes

Kobe Bryant NEVER faced a peaking Spurs in the Finals.

LeBron NEVER had prime Shaq on his team.

LeBron NEVER had Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom on his team.

LeBron NEVER lost a series in which a superstar player was playing along side him with 60%+ shooting from the field and 20/10+ series.

How old was LeBron btw?

[juju151111]

Dude averaged 30/6/5 on 50% shooting in the playoffs last year. Yeah, he can't do it when it counts.:rolleyes:
They were talking about the finals.

[Mikaiel]

Kobe Bryant NEVER had to play with Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes

Kobe Bryant NEVER faced a peaking Spurs in the Finals.

LeBron NEVER had prime Shaq on his team.

LeBron NEVER had Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom on his team.

LeBron NEVER lost a series in which a superstar player was playing along side him with 60%+ shooting from the field and 20/10+ series.

How old was LeBron btw?

And you could also add LeBron NEVER lost a series with homecourt advantage ('04 Finals).

[DuMa]

I like this thread. why am i not in this thread? :pimp:

[gts]

He's also never averaged the 6.5 apg that Lebron did.don't know without looking it up but i doubt he ever had the usage or ball in hand as much as LBJ did either

[YAWN]

yes i agree kobe is a terrible terrible basketball player.

lebron 4 lyfe!!1

[Psileas]

Kobe Bryant NEVER faced a peaking Spurs in the Finals.

That's off. This is like saying that Jordan never faced prime Pistons in the NBA Finals, which is also true...

Fact is, Kobe faced the prime Spurs, and more than once. This includes the same '04 Kobe who underperformed against the Pistons. Against the Spurs, he averaged 26.3 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.8 apg, 46% FG. I won't even mention '08 Kobe, who faced the Spurs only 1 season after LeBron did.

[Mikaiel]

That's off. This is like saying that Jordan never faced prime Pistons in the NBA Finals, which is also true...

Fact is, Kobe faced the prime Spurs, and more than once. This includes the same '04 Kobe who underperformed against the Pistons. Against the Spurs, he averaged 26.3 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.8 apg, 46% FG. I won't even mention '08 Kobe, who faced the Spurs only 1 season after LeBron did.

Well '08 Kobe faced the Spurs, but on an even year, so it doesn't count :oldlol:

No seriously, he was just talking about his Finals career. Only twice did Kobe face a team that was on the level of those Spurs (Celtics, Pistons). The other 3 times, so 60% of the time, the opposing team was not on that level. It doesn't have anything to do with the Spurs or how well he actually played when he faced them in the playoffs. Just talking about the Finals.

[OldSchoolBBall]

don't know without looking it up but i doubt he ever had the usage or ball in hand as much as LBJ did either

That holds for TO's too, but I didn't see you correcting your fellow Laker fan...

[EllEffEll]

Kobe-ball can't produce championship. That's what Gasol, Odom, Phil Jackson, Andrew Bynum, are for.

That kind of play doesn't work for anybody. Didn't work for MJ when he was trying it back in the 80's, didn't work for Wilt until he got some 'team' around him with the Sixers and then the Lakers, didn't work for Kareem until Magic showed up, it didn't work for Dr. J until Moose-ass Malone showed up. . . . . . I could go on and on.

Name a team that won it all with just one guy carrying the whole team?

[gts]

That holds for TO's too, but I didn't see you correcting your fellow Laker fan...that's why i said "don't know without looking it up" did you miss it?...lol

i wasn't correcting you or anybody.. it's just a guess on my part, doing a 100 and 1 things right now so i can't go combing through a pile of game logs

[Mikaiel]

didn't work for Kareem until Magic showed up

Kareem won a title before Magic showed up, with Milwaukee in the 70's. For a Laker fan you're not that knowledgeable on Kareem :wtf:

[EllEffEll]

Kareem won a title before Magic showed up, with Milwaukee in the 70's. For a Laker fan you're not that knowledgeable on Kareem :wtf:

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong, but try again.

Yes, I knew that. I was alive and quite a fan. I just didn't feel that I needed to add that team to the list as well. It was Oscar Robertson and Lucius Allen (Dandridge was key too) who were Kareem's sidekicks when they won that title. I actually saw Oscar play against the Lakers in person at the Sports Arena in the early 60's.

Without Oscar.... Kareem didn't win

[Allstar24]

Kobe Bryant NEVER had to play with Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes
No but Kobe had to play with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown and managed to carry them to the playoffs and take a 50+ win Suns team to 7 games. Kobe never played in the Eastern Conference where your first round opponent is the Washington Wizards :oldlol:


Kobe Bryant NEVER faced a peaking Spurs in the Finals.
That statement makes absolutely no sense. I wasn't aware of the fact that the 07 Spurs were "peaking"...they didn't even have the best record in the league. When Kobe faced the peaking Spurs in 2001 (when they had the best record in the league led by the Twin Towers), he destoyed them.

Kobe vs the peaking Spurs

Game 1- 45 points/10 rebounds/3 assists/ 54 FG%
Game 2- 28 points/7 rebounds/6 assists/ 49 FG%
Game 3- 36 points/9 rebounds/8 assists/ 52 FG%
Game 4- 24 points/2 rebounds/11 assists/ 53 FG%

I won't rub it in your face by posting LeBron's stats against the Spurs in the 07 finals (especially his FG%).


How old was LeBron btw?
Don't know and don't care. Kobe was 22 when he owned the Spurs in the playoffs...what's your point?

[Mikaiel]

No but Kobe had to play with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown and managed to carry them to the playoffs and take a 50+ win Suns team to 7 games.

We're only talking about the Finals here ...

Kobe never played in the Finals with questionable talent around him, LeBron did. And if LeBron goes to the Finals this year and chokes, then by all means you can go nuts because the criticism would be deserved IMO. But it's unfair to call him out for that series against the Spurs. He had Drew friggin' Gooden trying to contain Duncan, a one-legged Larry Hughes trying to keep up against Tony Parker for half of the series and a opposing defense who just had to worry about him. Who knows what kind of series he could have had if he hald help around him to make his life easier ? And NOBODY expected the Cavs to win those Finals. This year is basically the 1st time his team is expected to do something.


Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong, but try again.

Yes, I knew that. I was alive and quite a fan. I just didn't feel that I needed to add that team to the list as well. It was Oscar Robertson and Lucius Allen (Dandridge was key too) who were Kareem's sidekicks when they won that title. I actually saw Oscar play against the Lakers in person at the Sports Arena in the early 60's.

Without Oscar.... Kareem didn't win

Well then why didn't you say that didn't work for Oscar until Kareem showed up ? Instead of Kareem until Magic ?

[EllEffEll]

Well then why didn't you say that didn't work for Oscar until Kareem showed up ? Instead of Kareem until Magic ?

Sorry, Kareem / Magic was a more glaring example IMHO. I have more. It's a pattern that has repeated itself over and over in the league.

Cheers!:cheers:

[Gingereffic]

No but Kobe had to play with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown and managed to carry them to the playoffs and take a 50+ win Suns team to 7 games. Kobe never played in the Eastern Conference where your first round opponent is the Washington Wizards :oldlol:


That statement makes absolutely no sense. I wasn't aware of the fact that the 07 Spurs were "peaking"...they didn't even have the best record in the league. When Kobe faced the peaking Spurs in 2001 (when they had the best record in the league led by the Twin Towers), he destoyed them.

Kobe vs the peaking Spurs

Game 1- 45 points/10 rebounds/3 assists/ 54 FG%
Game 2- 28 points/7 rebounds/6 assists/ 49 FG%
Game 3- 36 points/9 rebounds/8 assists/ 52 FG%
Game 4- 24 points/2 rebounds/11 assists/ 53 FG%

I won't rub it in your face by posting LeBron's stats against the Spurs in the 07 finals (especially his FG%).


Don't know and don't care. Kobe was 22 when he owned the Spurs in the playoffs...what's your point?



That is like saying Wade is better than Kobe because he dominated those pistons and Kobe got waxed. Wait Wade is better.. LOL..

If you want to talk about playoffs we can bring up kOBE'S 37 percent series vs houston in 2004 with Shaq,malone and gpayton.

Or the airball he threw up in the first game OF the 2004 playoffs on a game winner, Shaq was there to grab that rebound and dunk it.

Or the 1-10 4th quarter in game 1 OF THE 2007 PLAYOFFS Against that juggernaut defense in the SUNS.

Or even better his 3-12 4th quarter performance in the final and deciding game of the 2007 playoffs vs the suns.

Or we can talk about 2006 where he did a Tmac and let his team lose vs a team with no players taller than 6f 8 inches. No stoudamire or thomas. both injured.

We can talk about that great winner he had in game 3 only to throw up a airball on his next try to win the series in game 6. Didn't even hit the rim.

Or we can talk about his 2004-2005 season where KObe led his team down the stretch with a 2-21 record to finish off a great season.. Worst season ever for a laker team. That was kobe leading that team. **** SEDALE THREATH was better than kobe...

We can talk about Phil Jackson writing about kobe being a callous gunslinger.

Or we can write about Kobe having more turnovers than assists in 2003 in the Spurs playoff series where Kobe wound up crying. I mean yea there are alot of things we can talk about but this is just about the FINALS. And Kobe is the BCIFH=KOBE... BIGGEST CHOKER IN FINALS HISTORY ..



SORRY TO DO YOU LIKE THAT, I ACTUALLY THINK KOBE IS A GREAT PLAYER... I just like pointing out the truth... :roll: :roll: :lol

[Allstar24]

That is like saying Wade is better than Kobe because he dominated those pistons and Kobe got waxed. Wait Wade is better.. LOL..

If you want to talk about playoffs we can bring up kOBE'S 37 percent series vs houston in 2004 with Shaq,malone and gpayton.

Or the airball he threw up in the first game OF the 2004 playoffs on a game winner, Shaq was there to grab that rebound and dunk it.

Or the 1-10 4th quarter in game 1 OF THE 2007 PLAYOFFS Against that juggernaut defense in the SUNS.

Or even better his 3-12 4th quarter performance in the final and deciding game of the 2007 playoffs vs the suns.

Or we can talk about 2006 where he did a Tmac and let his team lose vs a team with no players taller than 6f 8 inches. No stoudamire or thomas. both injured.

We can talk about that great winner he had in game 3 only to throw up a airball on his next try to win the series in game 6. Didn't even hit the rim.

Or we can talk about his 2004-2005 season where KObe led his team down the stretch with a 2-21 record to finish off a great season.. Worst season ever for a laker team. That was kobe leading that team. **** SEDALE THREATH was better than kobe...

We can talk about Phil Jackson writing about kobe being a callous gunslinger.

Or we can write about Kobe having more turnovers than assists in 2003 in the Spurs playoff series where Kobe wound up crying. I mean yea there are alot of things we can talk about but this is just about the FINALS. And Kobe is the BCIFH=KOBE... BIGGEST CHOKER IN FINALS HISTORY ..



SORRY TO DO YOU LIKE THAT, I ACTUALLY THINK KOBE IS A GREAT PLAYER... I just like pointing out the truth... :roll: :roll: :lol
I got lost halfway through your post so I'm not sure what you're rambling on about.
Godfather's point was that Kobe never played a peaking Spurs in the Finals. Well obviously Kobe can't play them in the Finals since both teams play in the west. So I can only talk bring up his performances against the Spurs in the western conference finals...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

35.5 fg%
5.75 turnovers (omg!)

what is particularly sad about that is the fact that Lebron was/is the Superstar of that team...the Man paid bigtime to play bigtime. He is EXPECTED to perform better. His teammates were relying upon him.

I'm guessing that that huge choke job has caused him nightmares...and has driven him to perform better (which he has).

And now that Mo Williams has taken them to the next level, Lebron will get a chance to redeem his embarrassment.

[Mikaiel]

I got lost halfway through your post so I'm not sure what you're rambling on about.
Godfather's point was that Kobe never played a peaking Spurs in the Finals. Well obviously Kobe can't play them in the Finals since both teams play in the west. So I can only talk bring up his performances against the Spurs in the western conference finals...

This thread is about Kobe the Finals choker. By the way, I find it ridiculous, I don't think he is, he still won 3 of them and the 2 times he lost, he faced better teams IMO, so that's not "choking".

But when Godfather said Kobe never faced the Spurs in the Finals, he responded to Kobe fans who pointed out the poor stats LeBron had in his lone Finals appearance. LeBron was on what could very well be the worst Finals team ever (along with the '01 sixers) and he faced a very very good team. Nobody gave him a chance to win, and well, he didn't. Nothing really shocking about that. The Cavs didn't know how to score without LeBron so against a great defensive team like the Spurs, of course your stats are gonna be miserable. How is that choking ?

Kobe was never in this situation. Everytime he's been in the Finals, his team was talented and balanced. He may have faced better teams twice, but the gap was nowhere near the gap that existed between the Spurs and the Cavs. I think that's what Godfather was trying to say.

[Gingereffic]

35.5 fg%
5.75 turnovers (omg!)

what is particularly sad about that is the fact that Lebron was/is the Superstar of that team...the Man paid bigtime to play bigtime. He is EXPECTED to perform better. His teammates were relying upon him.

I'm guessing that that huge choke job has caused him nightmares...and has driven him to perform better (which he has).

And now that Mo Williams has taken them to the next level, Lebron will get a chance to redeem his embarrassment.



I think Lebron is a choker just like Kobe. But Kobe is suppose to be this big clutch guy. Far from the truth. At least Lebron is not considered clutch. Both are ok but neither is clutch... Kobe=bcifh.. Hey did you like my last post? KOBE AND LEBRON ARE CHOKERS AND GOOD FRIENDS. No wonder... lol

[Gingereffic]

Originally Posted by Gingereffic
That is like saying Wade is better than Kobe because he dominated those pistons and Kobe got waxed. Wait Wade is better.. LOL..

If you want to talk about playoffs we can bring up kOBE'S 37 percent series vs houston in 2004 with Shaq,malone and gpayton.

Or the airball he threw up in the first game OF the 2004 playoffs on a game winner, Shaq was there to grab that rebound and dunk it.

Or the 1-10 4th quarter in game 1 OF THE 2007 PLAYOFFS Against that juggernaut defense in the SUNS.

Or even better his 3-12 4th quarter performance in the final and deciding game of the 2007 playoffs vs the suns.

Or we can talk about 2006 where he did a Tmac and let his team lose vs a team with no players taller than 6f 8 inches. No stoudamire or thomas. both injured.

We can talk about that great winner he had in game 3 only to throw up a airball on his next try to win the series in game 6. Didn't even hit the rim.

Or we can talk about his 2004-2005 season where KObe led his team down the stretch with a 2-21 record to finish off a great season.. Worst season ever for a laker team. That was kobe leading that team. **** SEDALE THREATH was better than kobe...

We can talk about Phil Jackson writing about kobe being a callous gunslinger.

Or we can write about Kobe having more turnovers than assists in 2003 in the Spurs playoff series where Kobe wound up crying. I mean yea there are alot of things we can talk about but this is just about the FINALS. And Kobe is the BCIFH=KOBE... BIGGEST CHOKER IN FINALS HISTORY ..



SORRY TO DO YOU LIKE THAT, I ACTUALLY THINK KOBE IS A GREAT PLAYER... I just like pointing out the truth...

I got lost halfway through your post so I'm not sure what you're rambling on about.
Godfather's point was that Kobe never played a peaking Spurs in the Finals. Well obviously Kobe can't play them in the Finals since both teams play in the west. So I can only talk bring up his performances against the Spurs in the western conference finals...



I got lost halfway through your post so I'm not sure what you're rambling on about.
Godfather's point was that Kobe never played a peaking Spurs in the Finals. Well obviously Kobe can't play them in the Finals since both teams play in the west. So I can only talk bring up his performances against the Spurs in the western conference finals...[/QUOTE]








Of course you did it was alot about Kobe's terrible performances and your probably a Laker fan so I don't expect you to understand. NEXT. I am out of here. But thanks for keeping this thread going.

KOBE=BCIFH BIGGEST CHOKER IN FINALS HISTORY :hammertime:

[Mikaiel]

Seriously, some of you need to look up the definition of "choking".

Giving a 20 point lead in the 4th and lose the game = choking

Missing FTs late in a game and lose the game = choking

NFL kicker missing a 35-yarder to win the game = choking

Losing a series to a team that's on your level or higher = NOT choking

Missing a gamewinner = NOT choking

Stupid uneducated 12-year-olds ...

[gts]

With the good sometimes comes the bad. Here are the 10 worst Finals performances since the merger, in chronological order:

Henry Bibby, Philadelphia, 1977
Sixers vs. Blazers -- Bibby's PER 7.4
Bibby was awful in both Finals appearances -- he had a 5.6 PER in 1980 -- but this one takes the cake because he played 38 minutes a game and still couldn't do anything right. For the series, the Sixers point guard shot 31.3 percent and averaged just 4.2 assists per game.

John Johnson, Seattle 1978
Sonics vs. Bullets -- Johnson's PER 7.9
Dennis Johnson's 0-for-14 Game 7 is more famous, but for the series he wasn't even the worst Johnson on the Sonics. John Johnson shot 38.2 percent in the seven games and only took three free throws all series -- on 68 shots -- for a miserable 38.9 true shooting percentage.

Michael Cooper, L.A. Lakers 1988
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Cooper's PER 1.3
The Lakers repeated, but let's just say Coop wasn't a big reason. He shot 9-for-44 for the series, including 3-of-20 on 3s, and in more than 25 minutes a game, he put up 3.7 points, 1.6 boards and 2.1 assists. His only positive contribution was getting Isiah Thomas to sprain an ankle after Zeke landed on Cooper's foot in Game 6.

Mark Aguirre, Detroit, 1989
Pistons vs. Lakers -- Aguirre's PER 5.8
As with Bibby, Aguirre has two contenders for this list -- he came back with a 9.3 PER in the 1990 Finals against Portland. His effort against L.A. takes the prize because even in going up against the likes of Tony Campbell and Jeff Lamp, he still shot 12-for-33 for the series, with only eight foul shots.

Kevin Johnson, Phoenix, 1993
Suns vs. Bulls -- Johnson's PER 9.8
Although he did a halfway-decent job guarding Michael Jordan, KJ's offensive game completely tanked. He dipped to 42.3 percent shooting, committed 4.23 turnovers a game and twice came up short in the clutch. Johnson dropped an inbound pass at the end of Game 4 to seal Chicago's win, and then he had his last-second shot spiked to close out Game 6.

Nick Anderson, Orlando, 1995
Magic vs. Rockets -- Anderson's PER 11.4
Anderson shot 36.0 percent in the series and 30 percent from the line, including his infamous four straight misses in Game 1 that allowed Houston to steal the opener and set the stage for a Rockets sweep.

Larry Johnson, New York, 1999
Knicks vs. Spurs -- Johnson's PER 3.9
"Grandmama" played like an old lady in this one, shooting 14-for-49 for the series and finishing with more turnovers than assists. Included in his "effort" was a 2-for-18 performance from 3-point range.

Stephen Jackson, San Antonio, 2003
Spurs vs. Nets -- Jackson's PER 6.7
Jackson was a huge part of the Spurs' run to the Finals, but then he was a train wreck once they got there. It wasn't just that he shot 37.8 percent, or that he earned only 12 free-throw attempts from his 61 shots. Jackson made 26 turnovers in the six games -- an amazing total for a player whose main job was to spot up as a shooter -- and finished with more miscues than baskets (23).

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

LeBron James, Cleveland, 2007
Cavs vs. Spurs -- James' PER 14.3
The King's first Finals visit wasn't a memorable one. Bruce Bowen hounded him into 35.6 percent shooting, and James committed 5.8 turnovers per game as San Antonio swept the Cavs in four. It didn't help that he couldn't get a whistle as he tried to draw a foul on a last-second 3-point try at the end of Game 3.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst

[Stringer Bell]

No, Kobe has played well in some finals.

It's also not the fairest comparison to other players who may have only played in one finals.

Kobe's played in 5, so he has more opportunities to "choke", or be clutch for that matter.

[Jasper]

of the list -

Cooper , larry Johnson & Kevin Johnson did not choke in their final appearances.
They all were in shooting clumps and the pressure of the finals didn't help.

On the other hand so many posters always talk about Acquire - and he was choker when the money was on the line.

If the original thread starter quoted correctly the correct shooting percentage for Byrant it would average out to 40.8 %. Every series I saw Kobe in it seemed he put pressure on himself , to raise to the occasion. I think this current team allows him to play more team player and spot his shoots including his experience has shown him his way.
When the Lakers if they get into the finals this year - It's not will they have the heart to score , it's will they have the heart to play Defense.

[NBASTATMAN]

of the list -

Cooper , larry Johnson & Kevin Johnson did not choke in their final appearances.
They all were in shooting clumps and the pressure of the finals didn't help.

On the other hand so many posters always talk about Acquire - and he was choker when the money was on the line.

If the original thread starter quoted correctly the correct shooting percentage for Byrant it would average out to 40.8 %. Every series I saw Kobe in it seemed he put pressure on himself , to raise to the occasion. I think this current team allows him to play more team player and spot his shoots including his experience has shown him his way.
When the Lakers if they get into the finals this year - It's not will they have the heart to score , it's will they have the heart to play Defense.


I think kobe is the best finals player of all time... :lol :lol

[dyna]

True, but it's not a choke if you end up winning. And I would say LeBron's one poor losing Finals were worse than both of Kobe's bad losing ones, so maybe that makes them even then.

Man you love Lebron, had his name in al your post,
You can't live without thinking of him right??:lol

[kobesabi]

I guess in almost every championship's final game, the loser is always a choker by Ginger definition.

Kobe and the gangs already gave up midway of the fourth, but Celtics just wanna rape them further.

[gpfanz]

Not unless u have high expectations of him :ohwell:

[Jacks3]

I thought this thread was about whether or not Kobe is a Finals ''choker'' not about him being better then Shaq. Kobe not winning Finals MVP doesn't mean he choked or didn't play well.
He only had 1 bad game vs the Pacers in 2000.
He didn't shoot well against the Sixers in 2001 but how does that make him a ''choker''?? Dude put up 25/8/6/1.4/1.4 .He only shot 41%(32% from 3 and 80% from the line) but that doesn't mean he choked.Those are excellent all-around numbers.
In 2002 Finals he put up phenomenal numbers:27 PPG/6 RPG/ 5 APG/1.5 SPG/0.8 BPG 51%/54%/81%
He was horrible in 2004 true.
In 2008 Finals he averaged 26/6/5/3 against an All-Time great defense designed to top him. He wasn't great but he didn't choke either. He had games that series of 30/8/4/3, 36/7/4/2/1, 17/10/4/4, 25/7/4/5/.
Can someone explain to me exactly how he's a choker when he's had those type of Finals?
Kobe not playing well in the Finals=myth
You said he can't handle pressure but how can then be when you consider his solid Finals and the fact that he's been the best playoff performer of this era not named Shaq or Duncan?

[NBASTATMAN]

I thought this thread was about whether or not Kobe is a Finals ''choker'' not about him being better then Shaq. Kobe not winning Finals MVP doesn't mean he choked or didn't play well.
He only had 1 bad game vs the Pacers in 2000.
He didn't shoot well against the Sixers in 2001 but how does that make him a ''choker''?? Dude put up 25/8/6/1.4/1.4 .He only shot 41%(32% from 3 and 80% from the line) but that doesn't mean he choked.Those are excellent all-around numbers.
In 2002 Finals he put up phenomenal numbers:27 PPG/6 RPG/ 5 APG/1.5 SPG/0.8 BPG 51%/54%/81%
He was horrible in 2004 true.
In 2008 Finals he averaged 26/6/5/3 against an All-Time great defense designed to top him. He wasn't great but he didn't choke either. He had games that series of 30/8/4/3, 36/7/4/2/1, 17/10/4/4, 25/7/4/5/.
Can someone explain to me exactly how he's a choker when he's had those type of Finals?
Kobe not playing well in the Finals=myth
You said he can't handle pressure but how can then be when you consider his solid Finals and the fact that he's been the best playoff performer of this era not named Shaq or Duncan?




Wow the person who started this thread has really put a label on kobe that will probably stick... The truth is that Kobe is a wonderful basketball player up until he hits the finals.... I did realize Kobe had less than stellar performances in his finals' appearances but now that I have read some of these posts it really puts his performances in perspective. Kobe has really played bad in the finals. Well Laker fans can still point to the fact he has been great in the regular season....

[TmacsRockets]

Whenever you blow a 24 point lead in the finals on your home court and lose the game when down 2-1 already, that is a choke. In fact it was the greatest choke ever.

[gts]

Whenever you blow a 24 point lead in the finals on your home court and lose the game when down 2-1 already, that is a choke. In fact it was the greatest choke ever.you should go make a thread on that topic...

[Lebron23]

It's Nick Anderson

http://www.nba.com/media/history/magic_anderson_88.jpg

[jjayfive]

tmac chiming in.....:oldlol: :roll:

[Axe]

Has he blown a 3-1 finals lead bt?

[Axe]

How can you lose two times in the NBA finals with Shaq, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Gasol, Odom, Horry, Fisher, Phil Jackson)? Ask Kobe. Did Jordan lose with Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Phil Jackson, Luc Longley, Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant)? Yet Jordan on those teams were 6 for 6. He was the best player on his team 6 for 6. Kobe, on the other hand, 3 out of 5. He was the second best player on his team. It will take him at least 11 attempts to match Jordan for finals MVP. Kobe could win all the all star MVPs he want. But who actually plays in the all star game? Kobe. But when it matters, "defer to teammates." Kobe did set a record for finals exit. Biggest blowout in the history. How can the best player in the game playing with Odom and Gasol and a supporting cast who helped launch a 20+ point lead only for Kobe to take over and Celtics with a massive comeback?
Interesting.

[Spurs m8]

Sick life, Axe

[ImKobe]

Interesting.

And now the same guys are making excuses for Lebron when he got embarrassed in the Finals 5 out of 10 times (2007, 2011, 2014, 2017, 2018) and was a shot away from another in 2013 after he had 3 turnovers in the last few minutes of an elimination game..