Bruce Lee - was the world's greatest fighter, ever? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

View Full Version : Bruce Lee - was the world's greatest fighter, ever?

Swagnificent

02-10-2009, 01:28 PM

I'll be the first to admit, I'm not highly knowledgeable about worldly fighters from years ago or from today for that matter.

Almost everyone in the world has heard of the legend that was Bruce Lee. If there's one thing we know about him, it's that he was considered to be the world's greatest fighter of the era he lived in.

I'm wondering though, was his actual fighting skills overrated, meaning there were actually better / or skilled (yet unknown maybe) fighters out there than Bruce Lee? Was Bruce Lee a movie-star first and foremost?

When I think of Bruce Lee, I sometimes think of an MJ comparison; meaning Jordan was and will probably forever be the world's greatest basketball player, but were there any other players out there (again, maybe never actually known) that may have been better?

:confusedshrug:

Could a prime Bruce Lee defeat any fighting challenger regardless of size, strength, etc. from today's world class of fighters?

pete's montreux

02-10-2009, 01:54 PM

There's no way you can determine that. You'd have to take the best fighter from every style, from every country, from every era. Impossible.

Brunch@Five

02-10-2009, 02:01 PM

lilmarcgasol

02-10-2009, 02:05 PM

Fedor is a greater fighter and Chuck Norris not joking he was karate champion of the world im pretty sure)

guys like that are like 6'4 250 pounds you have to understand that Bruce Lee was like 5'5" it doesn't matter how good your technique is, it's not like kung fu movies, guys that huge and that don't have a big quickness disadvantage will take you out.

I think Fedor is the greatest fighter ever, with his mix of Ju Jitsu and standup fighting he can take out anyone.

Watch this to see Fedor dominate a 7'5" kickboxing champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3QzX1ZadJM

Swagnificent

02-10-2009, 02:07 PM

IDK though... I'd be hard-pressed to say those guys you've mentioned would defeat a prime Bruce Lee.

n00bie

02-10-2009, 02:09 PM

I'm no expert on martial arts, but have a few friends who actually do martial arts (some black belts amongst them). ALL of them say Bruce Lee was/is overrated as a fighter, and rank Jackie Chan amongst others over him in terms of skill.

Jackie Chan?!?! Your friends aren't very smart.

Gunnin4HoLeS

02-10-2009, 02:14 PM

Gile from street fighter... Best so far..

Brunch@Five

02-10-2009, 02:15 PM

Jackie Chan?!?! Your friends aren't very smart.

What qualification do you have to judge martial arts? A black belt in tae-kwon-do will surely know better than you

CasterL

02-10-2009, 02:25 PM

hardest ever? not sure. martial arts have been practiced for god knows how long, and im sure there are plenty of sick martial artists through time who ahve never wanted or had the exposure of bruce lee, eg monks.

having said that i heard he kicked the **** out of the best martial artist in shanghai in like 50 seconds, was pissed he didnt do it faster and then beat him in somthing like 20 next time. if thats true hes gotta be up there

EastBayFuNk510

02-10-2009, 02:26 PM

ErhnamDjinn

02-10-2009, 02:30 PM

problem is aside from speculation, there are so many things to take into it, for one account who can say someone is the best fighter when there are so many forms, do we mean best at a certain style, boxing MMA as a whole? Bruce Lee was more of a enigma, some people he say he just created his image others ackowledge him as the grand daddy of MMA, problem is when it comes down to a real fight size does matter, so If say hypothetically a prime Bruce Lee goes up against the current Fedor, I would say Bruce gets manhandled by the much larger man. But it all depends there are to many variables like will there be rules involved. Is is boxing rules, Karate rules, straight BJJ or Sambo only? Many say Rickson Gracie was the best ever BJJ practitioner and greatest fighter ever but I doubt he would last a MMA fight against Fedor aswell. Same with a prime Tyson, unless it was a boxing match. It all depends and to hard to speculate.

ErhnamDjinn

02-10-2009, 02:32 PM

Really?? Damn,,,i thought it would have been the other way around...I wonder the same Bout Jet LI..hes always pretty badazz in his fight scenes
Jet li was oncwe interviewed after one of his movies which had UFC/Pride fighters Chuck Liddel and Wanderlei Silva in them (he beats them up all at the same time in the movie) and he said he with his 5'5 plus frame would never stand a chance against a real pro-fighter.

brantonli

02-10-2009, 03:12 PM

Apparently Bruce Lee once allowed another martial artist to attack him 3 times without Lee defending himself once. The guy attacked Bruce Lee, and then he went up to the guy, put a hand on the guy's shoulder, said, 'Look, I'm going to punch you right here, on your shoulder, ok?' and a second later, the guy was down because Bruce lee had just moved so f*cking fast the guy had zero chance of defending himself.

Oh yeah, and he's got those videos of him doing 2 fingered pressups

EastBayFuNk510

02-10-2009, 03:13 PM

Jet li was oncwe interviewed after one of his movies which had UFC/Pride fighters Chuck Liddel and Wanderlei Silva in them (he beats them up all at the same time in the movie) and he said he with his 5'5 plus frame would never stand a chance against a real pro-fighter.

Ok,that answers my question .... sooo he is strictly a movie fighter..i always thought that he was at least a trained fighter that just did movies..guess not...I heard the same about JCVD and Steven segal as well..strictly actors and not real fighters

Dasher

02-10-2009, 03:24 PM

What qualification do you have to judge martial arts? A black belt in tae-kwon-do will surely know better than you
Jackie Chan is a dancer, that's why. If they believe that Jackie is better than Bruce in the realm of actual martial arts, then they must have gotten their Tae-kwon-do black belts from a box of Cracker Jacks.

Younggrease

02-10-2009, 03:26 PM

I think Fedor is the greatest fighter ever, with his mix of Ju Jitsu and standup fighting he can take out anyone.

guarantee you there are just random dudes that will beat the hell out of Fedor...

Kensta

02-10-2009, 03:28 PM

Ok,that answers my question .... sooo he is strictly a movie fighter..i always thought that he was at least a trained fighter that just did movies..guess not...I heard the same about JCVD and Steven segal as well..strictly actors and not real fighters

Jet Li is legit. He's a trained fighter who became an actor.

SCREWstonRockets

02-10-2009, 04:41 PM

Bruce was not just an actor. He was a real martial artist. Created his own style and everything. A boxing historian once said that if Bruce went into pro boxing, he would have ranked in the top 3 of lightweights. He actually won some boxing title in a tournament in 1958. Knocking out all his opponents.

RainierBeachPoet

02-10-2009, 04:56 PM

bruce was a martial artist first and a film star second

the worlds greatest fighter is only about speculation but some of the comments regarding size are a factor-- bruce only weighed 135 lbs. pound for pound, there is no doubt in my mind that bruce would whip any lightweight

when bruce was young, he was a streetfighter so he could fight with a no holds barred mentality. it was noted by many that on the set of his movies, there would be guys who played bit parts who wanted to make a name for themselves and picked fights with bruce-- and they always went away whipped

i believe chuck norris said that bruce would beat him in a real fight

the one thing that is missing here is that bruce used his "chi" as the source of his power. this is demonstrated in his "one inch" punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx9iPFMriz0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS6aMdskKSo

i am not exactly sure how chi would translate into a street fight, but there is incredible power involved with people who have developed this inner force that can do some serious internal damage to a person

Brunch@Five

02-10-2009, 05:27 PM

Jackie Chan is a dancer, that's why. If they believe that Jackie is better than Bruce in the realm of actual martial arts, then they must have gotten their Tae-kwon-do black belts from a box of Cracker Jacks.

And you know how? Where did you get your knowledge from, other than youtube and Bruce Lee fan-sites?
Just asking, because thus far I have no reason to disbelieve non-biased people that actually know what they're talking about.
Also, my friend got his black belt from a korean master who has 6 dans. Not Cracker Jacks.

RedBlackAttack

02-10-2009, 05:47 PM

guarantee you there are just random dudes that will beat the hell out of Fedor...
Ahhh... Where are these supposed 'random dudes'? Fedor fights 'random' professional fighters on a regular basis and he has never been beaten. Are you inferring that there is some cat sitting on a stoop in Philly that would beat Fedor?

n00bie

02-10-2009, 05:53 PM

And you know how? Where did you get your knowledge from, other than youtube and Bruce Lee fan-sites?
Just asking, because thus far I have no reason to disbelieve non-biased people that actually know what they're talking about.
Also, my friend got his black belt from a korean master who has 6 dans. Not Cracker Jacks.

Jackie Chan is KNOWN to be a stunt artist. Have you seen Jackie Chans chinese movies, or are your friends basing this on rush hour? Jackie Chan and a famous fat actor use to "train" together back in the day. Your friends saying Jackie Chan is a great fighter is like calling that other fat actor a great fighter too.

Dasher

02-10-2009, 05:56 PM

Don't bring the great Sammo Hung into this. Jackie Chan is just not a real martial artist. He is closer to Fred Astaire than he is to Fedor.

Younggrease

02-10-2009, 05:57 PM

Ahhh... Where are these supposed 'random dudes'? Fedor fights 'random' professional fighters on a regular basis and he has never been beaten. Are you inferring that there is some cat sitting on a stoop in Philly that would beat Fedor?

No im inferring that there are people we dont know about that dont fight professionally that would beat his ass in a real fight without rules. Special Forces dudes or guys like that. Maybe someone who practices that krav maga. This guy fights with rules and there are some people who just dont do that.

Brunch@Five

02-10-2009, 06:04 PM

Jackie Chan is KNOWN to be a stunt artist. Have you seen Jackie Chans chinese movies, or are your friends basing this on rush hour? Jackie Chan and a famous fat actor use to "train" together back in the day. Your friends saying Jackie Chan is a great fighter is like calling that other fat actor a great fighter too.

It certainly is not based on Rush Hour or the likes. You think he became a stuntman before he was a martial artist? He's obviously martial artist turned actor who does his own stunts. Calling him a stuntman doesn't do him justice.

Just saying it again: I couldn't tell who is a more skilled martial artist. I'm just telling you what friends of mine told me, and they certainly know what they're talking about, cause they have knowlege of martial arts other than youtube videos and chinese movies. Which, I'd guess, is all the knowledge you and me have.

DwadeOverLebron

02-10-2009, 06:28 PM

ABSURD!!!

BRUCE LEE WOULDA KILLED FEDOR, SILVA, LESNAR, NORRIS, anybody! not at the same time of course but he would have killed any of those guys one on one, he was 5'4 135 shredded! he was documented bench pressing 315 pounds 10 reps in under 8 seconds, and did 88 pullups in a minute, he was a FREAK!!! this was all documented so its total complete fact! and he did beat a karate champion in less than a minute, and beat a mui thai champion in under 2 mins, and the most miraculous he knocked out a sumo wrestler in 3 secs with a jumping roundhouse kick, chuck norris did say he didn't stand a chance vs. bruce in real life, he is the real deal ladies and gentlemen, one time i saw him destroy like 20 kung fu dudes altho it was a movie scene i heard they were fighting for real cuz they wanted it to look as real as possible on screen but then bruce admitted he was only going 50% cuz he didn't want to kill anyone... he is the MJ of MARTIAL ARTS 4SHO!!!!!!!!!

bdreason

02-10-2009, 06:44 PM

It's not important who the 'greatest is. It's about what a fighter brings to the table.

Bruce Lee had the right idea in his fighting techniques. He was focused on simply using what was effective, instead of falling for the confined structure of organized martial arts.

If you read some of his work, he states that you can take a man, train him in Boxing and Wrestling for 1 year, and he would defeat a Blackbelt in a traditional martial art.

It wasn't until YEARS later that Bruce's ideas were implimented by fighters around the world. Nowadays, fighters know that you have to be well-rounded, and be prepared to respond to ANY action with a reaction.

bdreason

02-10-2009, 06:55 PM

No im inferring that there are people we dont know about that dont fight professionally that would beat his ass in a real fight without rules. Special Forces dudes or guys like that. Maybe someone who practices that krav maga. This guy fights with rules and there are some people who just dont do that.

This is nonsense. Fedor could train to use eye-pokes, throat chops, nut-shots, or any other "real fight" techinque you are referring to in days (hours). I train in Muy Thai, BJJ, and MMA 3-5 days a week (in a MMA gym). I've been to the local Krav Maga studio, and even know a trainer there. There is no technique they teach there that is superior to Sambo, Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, or Kickboxing techniques.

A "special forces dude" would get destroyed by Fedor in a hand to hand combat fight with no weapons. Fedor would throw the dude on his back like a ragdoll, then submit him in seconds. No amount of eye-gouging or throat chops are going to change the outcome of the fight, especially if Fedor has prepared for them.

wTFaMonkey

02-10-2009, 07:06 PM

Im probably the biggest Jackie Chan fan in this board. And I would have to say. He is not on the level of Bruce. Jackie went to a chinese opera school and became a stunt man FOR BRUCE LEE. Jackie then later got involved with martial arts and filming after Bruce died. If it wasnt for bruce lees death. there wouldnt be a jackie chan of today. He would probably still be doing stunts for bruce.

Brunch@Five

02-10-2009, 08:10 PM

Smokee

02-10-2009, 08:18 PM

Bruce Lee would've lost to Mike Tyson in his prime. Not even close.

Bruce Lee had that MJ drive to be great, i've seen a lot of clips of him training, but he would've been like Chuck Norris and not a real fighter into MMA. He would've been abused on the ground and a lot of people could easily take it to the ground on him i bet. Today's MMA fighters are probably the best fighters the world has seen. MMA covers all styles of fighting. You can be a street fighter, karate guru, wrestler, etc. MMA has it. And a lot of these guys have passion for it. Maybe not on Bruce Lee's level but close.

Oh and ever since MMA started every top fighter now is well rounded. Fighting has evolved a lot due to MMA...

MarloStanfield

02-10-2009, 08:28 PM

n00bie

02-10-2009, 08:49 PM

MarloStanfield

02-10-2009, 08:52 PM

Kid Yamamoto who is 135 would f*ck up Bruce Lee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8w5hGp0Rmc

pete's montreux

02-10-2009, 08:53 PM

I'm sure the surroundings also plays a big part of who would win. Would Bruce Lee stand a chance against Mike Tyson in an elevator? HELL NO.. would he be able to beat Mike Tyson out doors? Maybe.

I think you severely underestimate how incredible fast Lee was. He could take Tyson in a phone booth.

Lee was just too fast for guys like Tyson. Absolutely no way they ever get a clean hit on him. Ever.

Other martial artists? Different story. Although he had the fluid style of everything. That's his strength, really. Jeet Kune Do was basically take everything and use it, compared to classic styles which was punch this way and kick that way.

Smokee

02-10-2009, 08:56 PM

I think you severely underestimate how incredible fast Lee was. He could take Tyson in a phone booth.

Lee was just too fast for guys like Tyson. Absolutely no way they ever get a clean hit on him. Ever.

Other martial artists? Different story. Although he had the fluid style of everything. That's his strength, really. Jeet Kune Do was basically take everything and use it, compared to classic styles which was punch this way and kick that way.

You are underestimating Tyson's bombs in his prime. Tyson would just get inside of his kicks and just start throwing bombs. Even if Bruce could block them the power of Tyson would throw him sideways. Tyson back then was a absolute beast. Don't forget other heavyweights were afraid of Tyson, and it had nothing to do with the stupid **** he did later in his career. I'm talking about in his prime when other fighters were scared to get into the ring with him knowing they'd get KO'd.

pete's montreux

02-10-2009, 09:01 PM

You are underestimating Tyson's bombs in his prime. Tyson would just get inside of his kicks and just start throwing bombs. Even if Bruce could block them the power of Tyson would throw him sideways. Tyson back then was a absolute beast. Don't forget other heavyweights were afraid of Tyson, and it had nothing to do with the stupid **** he did later in his career. I'm talking about in his prime when other fighters were scared to get into the ring with him knowing they'd get KO'd.

I'm not underestimating his power at all. If anything, that's all he has compared to Lee. Tyson would just punch through Lee's blocks.

There is absolutely no way in hell Tyson gets a clean shot on Lee. If he does, which is impossible, Lee's out like a light. Tyson can throw a punch, and Lee can stand there and wait and write his memoirs and still have enough time to react.

Jackass18

02-10-2009, 09:27 PM

It's nearly impossible to know. There could be some guy, alive now or sometime in the past, that doesn't/didn't believe in trophies and competing in fights who could be/have been the greatest. Discarding unknowns and Rickson who's like 4,000,000,000-0 armbarring damn near everybody on the planet, I'd have to say Fedor.

dnyk1337

02-10-2009, 09:34 PM

Jet Li has always been more about perfecting his martial arts as an art. Martial arts were always about training body and mind... same old sh!t that every cliche movie talked about. It's the truth though. Some of the greatest hidden fighters would have to be Shaolin monks.

I'd probably rate Jackie Chan over Bruce Lee in a second. Jackie Chan was a crazy martial artist. He ALWAYS did his own stunts and it's just crazy how he has survived. Not even stunt men have enough balls to do the sh!t he's done over the years. Simply because of that, you can tell this guy is a beast physically and mentally.

Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI1AwZN4ZYg

mongePR(kb24)

02-10-2009, 09:38 PM

chuck was better

pete's montreux

02-10-2009, 09:44 PM

Thank God Jackie can use all those stunts in hand to hand combat! :rolleyes:

BrooklynZoo

02-10-2009, 09:45 PM

is there any footage of him really fighting?

pete's montreux

02-10-2009, 09:46 PM

is there any footage of him really fighting?

I'm not sure, but I've seen picture where he kicked a guy through a wall. I'm pretty sure he broke most of the guys ribs, maybe an arm, too.

dnyk1337

02-10-2009, 09:47 PM

Who do you think is choreographing all the fights? Jackie Chan... If he had no knowledge of fighting then he wouldn't be considered one of the best choreographers ever.

You talk like a Westerner... Have you ever seen Jackie Chan's body? The guy has been training in martial arts since he was born. He'd kick your ass, my ass, and everyone's ass here on ISH.

pete's montreux

02-10-2009, 09:49 PM

halffttime

02-10-2009, 09:49 PM

Odomize

02-10-2009, 09:59 PM

Questions we need to ask ourselves:

1. Has Bruce Lee ever really fought anyone noteworthy? How many times? Can this be verified?
2. Why is his martial art form (jeet kun do) not more popular than karate/taekwondo?
3. As a legend, he has many stories. How many of his stories and 'facts' are actually true?

He would beat Mike Tyson in the open no doubt because of his speed, but his overall 'world greatest fighter' persona is overrated, just like any other legend.

MarloStanfield

02-11-2009, 12:25 AM

pete's montreux

02-11-2009, 12:42 AM

I love how their is no doubt that he would beat Mike Tyson in the open amongst all of you. Clearly some of you haven't been in a fight if you feel someone can undoubtedly beat a man 100 pounds heavier and with world class boxing skills.

I love how you think Mike had world class boxing skills. He had world class power, that's about it.

MarloStanfield

02-11-2009, 12:48 AM

I love how you think Mike had world class boxing skills. He had world class power, that's about it.
If you don't Mike had world class skills to go along with his world class power than this isn't even worth arguing. There are tons of guys out there who can punch really really hard.

pete's montreux

02-11-2009, 12:57 AM

If you don't Mike had world class skills to go along with his world class power than this isn't even worth arguing. There are tons of guys out there who can punch really really hard.

In terms of boxing skills, Mike had none. Tell me what happened when Mike couldn't knock out an opponent within the first couple rounds? I'll let you look it up.

n00bie

02-11-2009, 01:14 AM

iamgine

02-11-2009, 02:25 AM

I love how their is no doubt that he would beat Mike Tyson in the open amongst all of you. Clearly some of you haven't been in a fight if you feel someone can undoubtedly beat a man 100 pounds heavier and with world class boxing skills.
Mike was indeed a great boxer. As fine as any other top boxer.

However, anyone who study martial art like Bruce Lee knows the weak points of human body. In a boxing ring, Bruce is definitely too fast. He would mess up the knee, since Mike is not trained to protect that area. That alone will make Mike lose. Not to mention hits to the ear/neck/back of the head.

In an elevator though, come on, Mike would kill Bruce, unless Bruce resort to dirty play (eyes & private area). Maybe he get a chance.

MarloStanfield

02-11-2009, 02:30 AM

Mike was indeed a great boxer. As fine as any other top boxer.

However, anyone who study martial art like Bruce Lee knows the weak points of human body. In a boxing ring, Bruce is definitely too fast. He would mess up the knee, since Mike is not trained to protect that area. That alone will make Mike lose. Not to mention hits to the ear/neck/back of the head.

In an elevator though, come on, Mike would kill Bruce, unless Bruce resort to dirty play (eyes & private area). Maybe he get a chance.
Yeah I think you should consider that people who do study martial arts (myself) do in fact think otherwise. For starters to say someone can undoubtedly beat someone else in a fight is stupid, especially when that person is Mike Tyson. He'll always have a puncher's chance, excuse the cliche. Secondly Tyson's reach alone would cause Bruce fits or anyone his size. Third inside of a ring Bruce would get cornered and when Mike put his hands on him he'd feel it.

hito da god

02-11-2009, 02:31 AM

Mike was indeed a great boxer. As fine as any other top boxer.

However, anyone who study martial art like Bruce Lee knows the weak points of human body. In a boxing ring, Bruce is definitely too fast. He would mess up the knee, since Mike is not trained to protect that area. That alone will make Mike lose. Not to mention hits to the ear/neck/back of the head.

In an elevator though, come on, Mike would kill Bruce, unless Bruce resort to dirty play (eyes & private area). Maybe he get a chance.
this. i know the martial art i study specifically targets pressure points [our entire striking system is numbered to strike pressure points], i'm almost positive in a ring bruce would blow mike's knee out before mike knew what hit him.

Boogaloo

02-11-2009, 02:33 AM

http://s3.amazonaws.com/coolchaser.com/image-928488.jpg

Ok not the movie actor, but the real life Spartans. Actually fought hand to hand, in an era where Life is cheap and only the strong survive.

Im pretty sure these guys can take on Iron Mike, Bruce Lee ect. Except Chuck Norris of course.

brandonislegend

02-11-2009, 02:59 AM

Bruce Lee could do 1 finger pushups.

iamgine

02-11-2009, 03:03 AM

Yeah I think you should consider that people who do study martial arts (myself) do in fact think otherwise. For starters to say someone can undoubtedly beat someone else in a fight is stupid, especially when that person is Mike Tyson. He'll always have a puncher's chance, excuse the cliche. Secondly Tyson's reach alone would cause Bruce fits or anyone his size. Third inside of a ring Bruce would get cornered and when Mike put his hands on him he'd feel it.
:roll: wow you are dense.

this. i know the martial art i study specifically targets pressure points [our entire striking system is numbered to strike pressure points], i'm almost positive in a ring bruce would blow mike's knee out before mike knew what hit him.

Indeed.

Zan Tabak

02-11-2009, 03:07 AM

If there's one thing MMA has taught us is >>size matters!!. Bruce Lee was like 5'6 120lbs there's no way he could do anything against a guy thats bigger and has grappling knowledge.

Still love Bruce though. It's just the way it is. If Bruce was fighting guys his own size then I think he'd do some serious azz kickin!

MarloStanfield

02-11-2009, 03:27 AM

:roll: wow you are dense.
I'm so dense that you can't even muster up a response. Keep living it up in fantasy land where dance fighting rulez.

iamgine

02-11-2009, 04:16 AM

:roll: touchy too.

LJJ

02-11-2009, 05:19 AM

People love to pretend that martial arts is some kind of holy grail and that a great martial artist would kill a great professional fighter because he knows the "weak spots", and stuff like that. :oldlol:

There actually are fighting disciplines where you can hit anywhere on the body, and the small guys don't even go up against the big guys. That's how big the difference is.

A good 220 pound boxer would devastate Bruce Lee. A good 220 pound well rounded fighter? Who is used to all the stuff Lee can do? I don't care how skilled he is, a 130 pound guy isn't going to last a minute.

lilmarcgasol

02-11-2009, 05:23 AM

I think you severely underestimate how incredible fast Lee was. He could take Tyson in a phone booth.

Lee was just too fast for guys like Tyson. Absolutely no way they ever get a clean hit on him. Ever.

Other martial artists? Different story. Although he had the fluid style of everything. That's his strength, really. Jeet Kune Do was basically take everything and use it, compared to classic styles which was punch this way and kick that way.

Jeet Kun Do is more like a philosophy than a fighting style. In Bruces words, it just teaches for your body to be like water, like water you can flow around rocks in a river, or like a tidal wave you can crash.

In other words it's basically just be evasive and dodge and then unleash power at the right time, it's not like a complete new style he made, it is a way of thinking in a fight.

Bruce's style was Chinese boxing and he was really freaking good at it, I agree pound for pound he might be the best, I have no idea what he'd do if taken to the ground by a ju jitsu specialist though, however against guys with 100 pound advantages and like s foot longer reach I'm pretty sure it's safe to say he's screwed. Could he take out a guy like George St. Pierre? I don't think so.

Boogaloo

02-11-2009, 05:44 AM

Jeet Kun Do is more like a philosophy than a fighting style. In Bruces words, it just teaches for your body to be like water, like water you can flow around rocks in a river, or like a tidal wave you can crash.

In other words it's basically just be evasive and dodge and then unleash power at the right time, it's not like a complete new style he made, it is a way of thinking in a fight.

Bruce's style was Chinese boxing and he was really freaking good at it, I agree pound for pound he might be the best, I have no idea what he'd do if taken to the ground by a ju jitsu specialist though, however against guys with 100 pound advantages and like s foot longer reach I'm pretty sure it's safe to say he's screwed. Could he take out a guy like George St. Pierre? I don't think so.

His style was Wing Chun, not chinese boxing :wtf: This style is made specifically for people with small stature ie. women.

The art of Wing Chun is an impressive form, focused on very short explosive moves. Because of this supposed history, the movements were developed to encourage close-range fighting, a distance where people of shorter stature have the advantage.

Wing Chun teaches not only how to deliver the attack, but how to endure an attack too. One of its principle philosophies is, "You may hit me, but my punch is going to hurt more." Even when guarding or retreating in this style, there is some component of an attack in there. In addition, building the body and toning it is an important part of this art. There's a lot of what is called "iron body" training, conditioning of the body to be as strong and firm as possible.

Because of the close range of this form of fighting, there's not a lot of aerial work or kicks. In fact, one of the most famous movement of this art is coined as the "one-inch punch." The idea behind that is you don't need a large wind-up to deliver a powerful blow. If you do a punch correctly, even if you just move your fist from the distance of your wrist, you are still making a powerful blow. One of the most recent images of this happened was during the subway fight scene in the Matrix, when Neo was still able to deliver a painful blow despite his punch being stopped.

lilmarcgasol

02-11-2009, 06:03 AM

His style was Wing Chun, not chinese boxing :wtf: This style is made specifically for people with small stature ie. women.
Bruce was a master of a lot of styles and fought with many, you can't just say he had one style he fought with, that is his whole principal of Jeet kun Do isn't it? In his movies he does chinese boxing that's all I know.

dnyk1337

02-11-2009, 06:46 AM

His style was Wing Chun, not chinese boxing :wtf: This style is made specifically for people with small stature ie. women.

Wing Chun!! Taught by Yip Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yip_Man) himself... Go watch Ip Man the movie... One of the greatest martial arts films ever made. In fact I believe he's made fun of in the movie because he practices an art formally known to be used by women, but he still kicks ass.

And any man could beat Tyson if they have enough experience. I'm talking hard hard experience where they've been fighting hard opponents for their whole lives. Tyson gained his experience in the streets and added ring experience which is why he was so great, and why many boxers/pro fighters are strong. Experience with other great fighters will add to your strengths. Will Martial Arts help? I think yes...

plowking

02-11-2009, 07:18 AM

What qualification do you have to judge martial arts? A black belt in tae-kwon-do will surely know better than you

You do realize that Jackie Chan is not a martial artist, right?

He is not a trained fighter. Simply a very good stuntman/gymnast/etc.

lilmarcgasol

02-11-2009, 07:20 AM

And any man could beat Tyson if they have enough experience.
Damn fatass why do you always have to go and spout off retarded fatass comments like this.

In your mind could your fat frame for example beat Mike Tyson if you had way more experience than him?

plowking

02-11-2009, 07:23 AM

In terms of boxing skills, Mike had none. Tell me what happened when Mike couldn't knock out an opponent within the first couple rounds? I'll let you look it up.

You know absolutely zilch about boxing.

Mike had one of the most efficient defenses ever in his early career. Furthermore it was the death of his trainer that caused his sudden drop from stardom and the top spot.
He had no guidance without his original trainer and he simply went for knockouts in the first round after his trainers death.
He was a very well rounded fighter.

This is a common misconception with Mike. He was infact a very good fighter, probably the greatest of all time in his prime, not career wise though. Those who say he was simply a hard hitter who went for knockouts in the first round don't know a lot about boxing and have obviously not watched many Tyson fights if any for that matter.

Brunch@Five

02-11-2009, 07:33 AM

You do realize that Jackie Chan is not a martial artist, right?

He is not a trained fighter. Simply a very good stuntman/gymnast/etc.

You think he could be this good a stuntman/fight choreographer without being a great martial artist? :no:

lilmarcgasol

02-11-2009, 07:37 AM

You think he could be this good a stuntman/fight choreographer without being a great martial artist? :no:
Well look, since he was a baby he trained in Chinese Opera, not Chinese fighting. Yes he's been doing kung fu movies so long he's probably able to kick the ass of you and me assuming that he is a hardass in real life and not a pampered scared soft dude, but if it was for example Jackie Chan who trained in Chinese Opera his whole life against a random shaolin monk the same age who trained in Shaolin kung fu his whole life, I'd take the random Shaolin guy

Brunch@Five

02-11-2009, 08:45 AM

Well look, since he was a baby he trained in Chinese Opera, not Chinese fighting. Yes he's been doing kung fu movies so long he's probably able to kick the ass of you and me assuming that he is a hardass in real life and not a pampered scared soft dude, but if it was for example Jackie Chan who trained in Chinese Opera his whole life against a random shaolin monk the same age who trained in Shaolin kung fu his whole life, I'd take the random Shaolin guy

I never said Jackie Chan was one of the best fighters. Just used as an example of someone who was more skilled than Bruce Lee. I mean, who cares if he can do push-ups on 2 fingers? Martial Arts is not necessarily about strength. Bruce Lee probably took more time perfecting every muscle of his body than improving his technique.

wang4three

02-11-2009, 09:09 AM

What qualification do you have to judge martial arts? A black belt in tae-kwon-do will surely know better than you

So when Greg Anthony says that Kobe is better than Jordan, I should automatically assume he knows more about basketball than me because he played in the NBA and is paid for his commentary? Pass, I'm going to go and dismiss him like I normally do.

I'm not a martial artist, but having read Jackie's autobiography where he spoke of Bruce as if he was better than him I'd go by that. Not only that, Jackie gets the benefit of having to been filmed during a time where media was being rapidly improved. Back when Bruce was filming, they actually asked him to slow down because the camera couldn't catch how fast he was. Jackie doesn't have to deal with that with all the digital imaging improvements we have today. Also Jackie Chan is known to show his full assortment of tricks while Bruce has always been a guy who just takes out his opponent. We may have never have seen Bruce in full action.

Brunch@Five

02-11-2009, 09:16 AM

So when Greg Anthony says that Kobe is better than Jordan, I should automatically assume he knows more about basketball than me because he played in the NBA and is paid for his commentary? Pass, I'm going to go and dismiss him like I normally do.

I'm gonna guess that you've played basketball yourself and have competed in games, so this is NOT comparable. Basically all knowledge the regular Bruce Lee fans has is from his movies, youtube vids and myths.

wang4three

02-11-2009, 10:04 AM

I'm gonna guess that you've played basketball yourself and have competed in games, so this is NOT comparable. Basically all knowledge the regular Bruce Lee fans has is from his movies, youtube vids and myths.

I don't think there's that much of a difference. All the information I have from MJ and Kobe are virtually the same, Games and youtube clips, and other people's anectdotes. Having played basketball plays into it, but by what margin? I can't qualify, but I truly believe all my knowledge only makes me articulate my thoughts better..off of past game films and youtube clips.

What do your friends really go off of? I'm sure they have a wealth of knowledge that I don't, but unless your friends have sparred with Bruce and Jackie and tell me otherwise, I don't have to buy into it. Jackie was a Chinese Opera performer, which emphasized more on elegance and grace in their movements while Bruce was a fighter. Jackie was trained to put on a show for the audience, to be a performer, Bruce grew up as a fighter. Putting on a show wasn't his priority. Putting his man down was.

dnyk1337

02-11-2009, 10:15 AM

Damn fatass why do you always have to go and spout off retarded fatass comments like this.

In your mind could your fat frame for example beat Mike Tyson if you had way more experience than him?

I never said I could you disgrace to life. And I'm sure no pale loser like you will have a chance but I'm sure many others have a chance.

Brunch@Five

02-11-2009, 11:06 AM

I don't think there's that much of a difference. All the information I have from MJ and Kobe are virtually the same, Games and youtube clips, and other people's anectdotes. Having played basketball plays into it, but by what margin? I can't qualify, but I truly believe all my knowledge only makes me articulate my thoughts better..off of past game films and youtube clips.

it's a difference because neither of us two has ever done martial arts, so we're basically talking about something we have no clue of. Basketball is something we grew up with, have played ourselves and is part of our culture/life. Martial Art is not. I believe it takes more than watching youtube clips and reading anecdotes to really understand something as complex as martial arts.

What do your friends really go off of? I'm sure they have a wealth of knowledge that I don't, but unless your friends have sparred with Bruce and Jackie and tell me otherwise, I don't have to buy into it. Jackie was a Chinese Opera performer, which emphasized more on elegance and grace in their movements while Bruce was a fighter. Jackie was trained to put on a show for the audience, to be a performer, Bruce grew up as a fighter. Putting on a show wasn't his priority. Putting his man down was.

Lee's father Hoi-Chuen was a famous Cantonese Opera star. Thus, through his father, Bruce was introduced into films at a very young age and appeared in several short black-and-white films as a child. Lee had his first role as a baby who was carried onto the stage. By the time he was 18, he had appeared in twenty films.

Bruce Lee was an actor first, like Jackie Chan.

Lee was not a professional competitor

dnyk1337

02-11-2009, 11:14 AM

Jet Li might be more of a performance martial artist, but his training is no joke...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzYIgZWfdgQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=553lJJVSs7Q&feature=related

Rasheed1

02-11-2009, 12:48 PM

Bruce Lee was a serious Martial artist.... Much more martial artist than movie actor.....

he created his own fighting style for crying out loud.

the guy was brilliant

glidedrxlr22

02-11-2009, 02:17 PM

My vote goes to Hwang Jang Li. He usually played the evil boss in late 70s kung fu films. Best kicker ever.

Rasheed1

02-11-2009, 02:23 PM

I actually remember this guy even though he reminds me more of the police chief from a johnny Woo flick

http://www.kungfucinema.com/images/hwangjanglee.jpg

this dude was my favorite Azn baddie

http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsY/65610-2068.gif
BOLO!

wang4three

02-11-2009, 02:30 PM

it's a difference because neither of us two has ever done martial arts, so we're basically talking about something we have no clue of. Basketball is something we grew up with, have played ourselves and is part of our culture/life. Martial Art is not. I believe it takes more than watching youtube clips and reading anecdotes to really understand something as complex as martial arts.

Sure, Martial arts involves a lot spirituatlity and existential beliefs..but we're not talking about the those aspects--not of its structure or anything that is that profound. We're even in the same "art" category. We're talking about fighting and two actors. It does not take a full-time fighter to rate two fighters. Just need to watch and make a judgement. My girlfriend watched Yao play and then watched Brook Lopez and did not need a lot of synthesizing analysis to know one was better than the other. The prelude to that is that she didn't start watching/playing basketball till she realized how prevalent it is in my life. Also not saying that parity between Bruce to Jackie is the same to Yao to Brook, just illustrating a point.

Now if we're talking about each of their idealogies and philosophies when it came to their craft, I'd agree with you. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about whose the better fighter from our judgements through movies and Bruce was better in my eyes. I like Jackie a lot, I enjoy his over all body of work (pre-Rush Hour) more than I do Bruce's, but from all I've seen, nothing indicates to me that Jackie was better than Bruce. Having read Jackie's autobiography, he seemed to share those sentiments, which seem to have led him to start producing movies the way he did because he didn't want to compete with the Bruce Lee genre.

Bruce Lee was an actor first, like Jackie Chan.

Bruce was involved in a lot of gang fights growing up and just overall violence. To me he had a combative upbringing and even though he got into the show business for fighting instead of profesional fighting, he was raised to fight.

AznBBoyX

02-11-2009, 04:08 PM

Can we just accept that Bruce Lee was one of the pioneers of mixed martial arts? That's what his Jeet Kune Do philosophy is. It's not a style but rather the philosophy of absorbing what is useful and discard what isn't. These days, all MMA fighters practice that philosophy. If he were alive today and in his prime, I think he would be one of the best fighters in his weight class.

Brunch@Five

02-11-2009, 06:55 PM

http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/feats.html

read what other people had to say who actually knew him personally and saw him living everyday

Jesse Glover - "Bruce would take hold of a 70lb dumbbell with one arm and raise it to a lateral position, level to his shoulder and then he'd hold the contraction for a few seconds. Nobody else I knew could even get it up there, let it alone hold it up there".

70 lb lat raise at his size? holy *** haha

Bolo Yeung - "Bruce had devised a particularly difficult exercise that he called "The Flag". While lying on a bench, he would grasp the uprights attached to the bench with both hands and raise himself off the bench, supported only by his shoulders. Then with his knees locked straight and his lower back raised off the bench, he'd perform leg raises. He was able to keep himself perfectly horizontal in midair. He was incredible, in 100 years there will never be another like him".

shiieeett...

I don't think anyone is denying his physical prowess. He's without a doubt one of the best ever in that regard. But this has nothing to do with skill, which my original point was about.

RainierBeachPoet

02-12-2009, 06:41 AM

I don't think anyone is denying his physical prowess. He's without a doubt one of the best ever in that regard. But this has nothing to do with skill, which my original point was about.

to me, his physical prowess is connected to his skill and that, in great part, is what made him so awesome. bruce was the ultimate pragmatist in his jeet kune do: if it works, use it

my point in post #19 was that bruce's power was unique to very few kung fu masters-- his developed chi could be lethal if used in a fight.

also, i realize that many of these discussions have not set the parameters of the what the "greatest fighter" is (not dissimilar to discussions in the main). is it about a no rules, anything goes street fight? will there be some parameters so that no one dies?

tontoz

02-12-2009, 08:50 AM

Lee didn't even fight competitively. Chuck Norris was the world champ 5 times.

Norris >> Lee

They were friends and trained together quite a bit.

dnyk1337

02-12-2009, 09:18 AM

Funny thing about chi... it actually exists. I had a friend in high school who trained in martial arts, and he had the strongest body movements. The punch could look like it was the weakest, and it would hurt like hell if you took it. We were trying to see who could last longest from punches to the arm, and he obviously won by making my whole arm black and blue. Thing is, that he was about 5'8 or so, and had a lean body...

RainierBeachPoet

02-12-2009, 12:00 PM

Lee didn't even fight competitively. Chuck Norris was the world champ 5 times.

Norris >> Lee

They were friends and trained together quite a bit.

this is second hand from a documentary but it suggests just the opposite: that bruce would win

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH7D8-eXsnM&feature=related

tontoz

02-12-2009, 12:44 PM

this is second hand from a documentary but it suggests just the opposite: that bruce would win

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH7D8-eXsnM&feature=related

I can't watch vids at work. bottom line is the Lee didn't fight in competition. Norris did and he beat everyone. he frequently beat the champs in the higher weight classes.

Lee didn't know what it's like to get his nose broken in a fight, have the ring doctor come out and yank set his nose back in place, and then have to keep fighting.

RainierBeachPoet

02-12-2009, 12:51 PM

I can't watch vids at work. bottom line is the Lee didn't fight in competition. Norris did and he beat everyone. he frequently beat the champs in the higher weight classes.

Lee didn't know what it's like to get his nose broken in a fight, have the ring doctor come out and yank set his nose back in place, and then have to keep fighting.

actually, bruce regarded karate competitions in the 60s as glorified games of tag and saw no point in entering them. he was a pioneer in seeing the pragmatic side of fighting and was searching for the most efficient was to defeat an opponant in real fighting. in many ways he was ahead of his time

also, i dont know much of chuck norris' background, but i could imagine tht bruce got into many more street fights in hong kong than norris. from the various accounts, he roamed the streets and got into trouble with his fighting when he was younger

tontoz

02-12-2009, 12:54 PM

actually, bruce regarded karate competitions in the 60s as glorified games of tag and saw no point in entering them.

That is a convenient way to avoid facing the best fighters in the world. You can't be considered the best fighter unless you beat the best.

also, i dont know much of chuck norris' background, but i could imagine tht bruce got into many more street fights in hong kong than norris. from the various accounts, he roamed the streets and got into trouble with his fighting when he was younger

Kimbo got in a lot of street fights too. Does that make him a great fighter?

pete's montreux

02-12-2009, 01:42 PM

Isn't "chi" spelled "Qi"?

dnyk1337

02-12-2009, 08:48 PM

Isn't "chi" spelled "Qi"?

or 氣

we're just using chi for conventional use... ever country has its own name for it.

wTFaMonkey

02-12-2009, 09:04 PM

Isn't "chi" spelled "Qi"?

no.. chi is a cantonese translation

but Q! is a mandarin translation

Smokee

02-12-2009, 09:37 PM

If there's one thing MMA has taught us is >>size matters!!. Bruce Lee was like 5'6 120lbs there's no way he could do anything against a guy thats bigger and has grappling knowledge.

Exactly. If there were some kung fu guy in the world who could beat people twice his size using this supposed quickness and pressure points, or even the 'finger of death' :lol , he'd be MMA world champion and rich. Too bad thats mostly movie hype.

Even in real life in your neighborhood how many little guys are you seeing actually able to hang with the biggest people? Just look at boxing, wrestling, etc. etc. Mike's size would crush Bruce alone. Tyson might miss more than a few bombs but he'll eventually get inside Bruce's kicks and uppercut KO. If anything just bulldog tackle him and start pounding him.

MMA is the **** tho :pimp:

pete's montreux

02-12-2009, 09:43 PM

MarloStanfield

02-12-2009, 09:50 PM

I'd bet my life Bruce could dismember, dismantle, devour, and devastate Tyson in a fight in less than a minute.

I just can't fathom how people can think a man who dedicated his life to martial arts couldn't beat a proffesional boxer.
Maybe because you don't know sh*t about fighting?

Perhaps you should stick to taking on 5 guys at once.

pete's montreux

02-12-2009, 09:51 PM

Maybe because you don't know sh*t about fighting?

Perhaps you should stick to taking on 5 guys at once.

Ok.

MarloStanfield

02-12-2009, 10:42 PM

Ok.
Sorry. That was mean on my part. I still stand by my statement regarding Tyson.

pete's montreux

02-12-2009, 10:47 PM

No worries.

:cheers:

Odomize

02-12-2009, 11:21 PM

Interviews \ Joe Lewis

DW Forum - Could you answer me on one simple question concerning JKD? What exactly was Bruce teaching? I mean did he have specific way of treining his students or maybe he just said "well, we're gonna learn this from wing chun, that from boxing and those kicks from taekwondo"?Were there any specifics only for jeet kune do?So, have you sparred with Bruce Lee (because I've heard many versions of your fighting-relation ship with him).

Joe Lewis - Bruce and I would only do drills related to combat. We did not give them names, such as Wing Chun etc. If it worked we used it and I have always trained that way. I do not care about names or styles, that is all garbage---and I mean garbage. Either your kick or choke worked or it didn't: the style did not carry any super magic or extra powers.

DW Forum - I read a story about Bruce going over to your house and not being impressed with the size of your heavy bag and called it a girls bag, and I think he asked Herb Jackson was it, to make him a man sized man. It weighed 700lbs and if I remember the story correctly you along with Bob Wall set it up for him and then hid in a bush. Bruce kicked it and landed in a heap. I hope I've got this all right or else I'll look like a bit of a dip Anyway can you remember this day and what did you think when he kicked the bag and landed on the floor. Did he ever move the big bag at all, what was his sidekick power like on the bag?

Joe Lewis - I do not remember much about that 700 pound bag. It sounds like one of those old rumors. Bruce had a good fast side kick but if you watch some of those old atapes, you can tell he always lunged from too great a distance. This makes the bag move but throws your timing way off. You need to be close to the tirget when you fire so your reaction time and your response time are quick, not just one. Timeing speed is both.You should never work with a bag weighing more than l00 pounds, and I mean never. If anyone tells you different, they do not know what they are talking about. Bannana bags are different for the low cut kicks.

DW Forum - Lately I've heard things like "Bruce Lee could hit seven times in a second"...I personally believe it is crap. I mean how could anybody test speed of punches without todays fast-cameras and all that stuff?I'm told my wing chun instructor punches seven hits on a second (in the air of course).Have you heard of it? I guess it's a proof of a quickness....maybe Bruce talked about it?

Joe Lewis - Please, drop all the stuff you've heard. Martial arts is full of nonsense. Only believe what you have seen or can prove. Show me more than three real punches in a second and I will kiss your butt. ON film, Ali's jab took 7 frames to complete, and Sugar Ray's took 9 frames. A second of film takes 24 frames. Simple math guys. Three real punches per second and that is it. Less talk and more proof. Let's get in the ring and show off some of these secrets. They pay millions of dollars. That beats eating rice all your life and teaching martial arts forever anytime?

DW Forum - Can you tell a bit us of your training days with Bruce Lee & Bob Wall? How many training sessions in total did you have with Bruce & over that period of time? What is your opinion of Bruce as a fighter? Would he have been able to go 10 or 12 rounds with someone such as yourself or Chuck Norris? It is rumoured that Bruce Lee & Chuck Norris had a sparing session in that Chuck Norris was left red-faced. I assume this to mean he lost and was embarassed. Do you know ot have you anything about this ? Is there any truth in it. Can you tell us about the incident where Bruce kept teasing you about kicking a girl sized bag (Becuase you kept busting 100lb bags with your kicks). And you guys (Bob wall etc) made him a man sized bag (300lb). Did you ever meet or have a chance to talk to Jim Kelly ?

Joe Lewis - I learn fast. I made black belt in one year in Okinawa in three different styles. I am a fast learning. I can get all your stuff in a matter of weeks, and I mean anybody who can fight. I worked with Bruce less than two years before we grew apart. We used to work together for 6 to 8 hours at a time. I would be at his house at one in the afternoon, and not leave until maybe ten that night. Is that one lesson? Bruce was not a fighter. He was an actor and a teacher. He was a great teacher.

DW Forum - There is a fellow from India who always calls Bruce Lee `Master Lee',and capitalizes any words referring to `Him'.He has also put some rather unflattering remarks on his Indian fan club website about you by taking quotes of yours out of context and saying that you are essential insulting `Master Lee'. Can you tell us how Bruce Lee would respond and treat somebody who would call him `Master Lee' outside a formal class setting?Did you or Chuck or Mike Stone ever have to call him sifu or such?Or did Lee tell you to call him by his name?

Joe Lewis - Bruce Lee always called me "Joe," and I always called him, "Bruce." Bruce told me he was not a master but rather a student master. He called himself this because he felt he was always still learning. He joked about some who called him "sifu." As far as what some of these uninformed people from foreign websites say about me or Bruce, I wish they would exercise better judgment. You never talk about a person unless you have interviewed him, worked with him, or observed him training. Most people who talk about Bruce and myself have never met either of us, interviewed either of us, or witnessed us training together. My only advice to the uneducated writers, who saturate the JKD world, bring us a little honor to your efforts, and in the future, as professional writers practice, do your homework first. Lastly, proper ethics teaches you not to attack somebody and then invite them to come onto a website to defend themselves. In response to attacks against me not being spiritual: The spiritual aspects of combat never made sense to the rational thinker. However, I studied objectivism and J. Krisnamurti before I ever met Bruce. He encouraged me to integrate these ideologies into my training. Before Krisnamurti died, I attended one of his lectures in Ojai, California. After his talk, he usually accepted visitors in the privacy of his company. I gave his staff a poster and pictures of Bruce Lee to present on Bruce's behalf. I told them that Krisnamurti was one of Bruce's idols. To me, this was an act of profound spiritualism. No other martial artist had done this for Bruce.

DW Forum - You have said on numerous occassions that Bruce was not a fighter, but at the same time you say that Bruce was the first Ph.D in martial arts fighting? And you have also written about how when you first met Bruce you were really prejudice in those days, especially of little guys as fighters, what changed your mind? You also write that in those days you didn't care much for talkers, you say, "don't tell me how to fight if you never fought", you go on to say "I was a doer in those days, and I didn't care much for talkers. In other words, don't tell me how great you are, how great your style is, or weather your stuff works or not. Let's simply get in the ring and I'll find out within a matter of seconds". What was it that changed your mind and become one of Bruce's students? Why were your classes private, and were Chuck Norris, or Mike Stone taught privatly also?

Joe Lewis - Bruce told me he did not care about competing. He had no interest in it, and he said he felt there was nothing to gain by him doing so. Little guys, in my opinion, have always been the best trainers. This is because tactically very early in their careers they figure out how to conquer larger opponents. Mike Stone, who I respect, convinced me to study with Bruce. Martial arts does not have a long history as does boxing. Bruce Lee was a wealth of knowledge. No one knew what he had. Bruce Lee was proud to be the instructor of three world champions, Norris, Stone, and myself. With private lessons, he could customize each lesson to fit and compliment the attributes of the individual. I teach this way also.

DW Forum - In Davis Miller's 'The Tao of Bruce Lee' he recounts a story that you told him about how one time Bruce set you up in front of some of his students

SLY

02-13-2009, 12:40 AM

Everyone at the UFC >>>>>> Bruce Lee

Smokee

02-13-2009, 12:58 AM

However, I studied objectivism and J. Krisnamurti before I ever met Bruce. He encouraged me to integrate these ideologies into my training. Before Krisnamurti died, I attended one of his lectures in Ojai, California. After his talk, he usually accepted visitors in the privacy of his company. I gave his staff a poster and pictures of Bruce Lee to present on Bruce's behalf. I told them that Krisnamurti was one of Bruce's idols. To me, this was an act of profound spiritualism. No other martial artist had done this for Bruce.

I don't get this. He gave Krisnamrti a staff, poster, and pics of Bruce to Krisnamurti, so what did Krisnamrti do for Bruce? :confusedshrug:

You have a source for this btw? :pimp:

tgan3

02-13-2009, 02:10 AM

tgan3

02-13-2009, 02:15 AM

Exactly. If there were some kung fu guy in the world who could beat people twice his size using this supposed quickness and pressure points, or even the 'finger of death' :lol , he'd be MMA world champion and rich. Too bad thats mostly movie hype.

Even in real life in your neighborhood how many little guys are you seeing actually able to hang with the biggest people? Just look at boxing, wrestling, etc. etc. Mike's size would crush Bruce alone. Tyson might miss more than a few bombs but he'll eventually get inside Bruce's kicks and uppercut KO. If anything just bulldog tackle him and start pounding him.

MMA is the **** tho :pimp:

I doubt that. MMA is a sport, its not real fighting that you would use facing in a live/death situation. If I would to choose someone who is smaller size but knows how to leverage and attack the weak points. the fight would be over easy. Just ask any legit wing chun master, they would claim that they can kill a man easily( thus cant be used for mma ).

MarloStanfield

02-13-2009, 02:42 AM

I doubt that. MMA is a sport, its not real fighting that you would use facing in a live/death situation. If I would to choose someone who is smaller size but knows how to leverage and attack the weak points. the fight would be over easy. Just ask any legit wing chun master, they would claim that they can kill a man easily( thus cant be used for mma ).
wing chun :oldlol:

they are full of ****

RainierBeachPoet

02-13-2009, 06:32 AM

Dasher

02-13-2009, 09:47 AM

i would like to check out the source too!

http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/joelewis.html

RainierBeachPoet

02-13-2009, 11:08 AM

http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/joelewis.html

thanks

i liked these quotes:

[CENTER]DW Forum - Do you feel that as time goes by you are a better fighter (meaning in the street not tournament competition) today then you were in your prime? Or is just a matter of adjustments, as you grow older?
[I]Joe Lewis - I have never thought of myself as being a better street fighter in any respect. I know more today about how to avoid that kind of nonsense. I have nothing to prove by getting into a street altercation. As was 30-to 40-years ago, if push comes to shove, my favorite move has always been to spin my opponent into a rear choke. That way, no one gets hurt, and when the cops come, there are no bruises or blood. Street fighters keep their records down at the local police department. I want my fight records to remain where they belong

tontoz

02-13-2009, 01:17 PM

[QUOTE]DW Forum - In Davis Miller's 'The Tao of Bruce Lee' he recounts a story that you told him about how one time Bruce set you up in front of some of his students

RainierBeachPoet

02-13-2009, 01:40 PM

Bruce was an actor that used the martial arts as a means to an end.

Norris was a fighter. Bruce Lee was an actor who was a martial artist.

did you have a chance to view this?

it is second hand from a documentary but it suggests just the opposite: that bruce would win

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH7D8...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH7D8-eXsnM&feature=related)

Rasheed1

02-13-2009, 01:46 PM

People who think Bruce was more actor than Martial artist simply dont understand how serious Bruce was about his craft...

tontoz

02-13-2009, 02:03 PM

People who think Bruce was more actor than Martial artist simply dont understand how serious Bruce was about his craft...

Lee's goal was to be a bigger movie star than Steve McQeen. Sure he was serious about the martial arts but a guy who never fights anyone can't be considered the great fighter.

tontoz

02-13-2009, 02:07 PM

did you have a chance to view this?

it is second hand from a documentary but it suggests just the opposite: that bruce would win

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH7D8...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH7D8-eXsnM&feature=related)

I havent watched the video but Norris was a nice guy. Bruce was a close freind of his. He isn't going to come out and say he could kick Lee's ass. He never said he could beat anyone, he just did it.

Lee didn't even believe in throwing kicks above the waist until he started working with Norris.

Rasheed1

02-13-2009, 02:54 PM

Lee's goal was to be a bigger movie star than Steve McQeen. Sure he was serious about the martial arts but a guy who never fights anyone can't be considered the great fighter.

Like I said... lee was the a serious martial artist... he created his own style and was brilliant beyond simply fighting....

he was much more than simply some fighter... he was a master of martial arts

he was a legend beyond any mere fighter

tontoz

02-13-2009, 03:00 PM

Like I said... lee was the a serious martial artist... he created his own style and was brilliant beyond simply fighting....

he was much more than simply some fighter... he was a master of martial arts

he was a legend beyond any mere fighter

Sure he was a serious martial artist but he never fought anyone. if he fought anyone he might lose which would put his "legend" status in jeopardy. I believe that is the reason why he never fought competitively. He didn't want to take the risk of losing.

Rasheed1

02-13-2009, 03:09 PM

Sure he was a serious martial artist but he never fought anyone. if he fought anyone he might lose which would put his "legend" status in jeopardy. I believe that is the reason why he never fought competitively. He didn't want to take the risk of losing.

I doubt there was anyone who could beat him...

but the real point here is that his technique and his legacy totally surpasses the idea of simply 'fighting'....

he was about discipline and pushing the limits of his body....

the style he created is recognized worldwide.... he is more than just a fighter.. he is more of a master. the one who would teach fighters

tontoz

02-13-2009, 03:17 PM

I doubt there was anyone who could beat him...

but the real point here is that his technique and his legacy totally surpasses the idea of simply 'fighting'....

he was about discipline and pushing the limits of his body....

the style he created is recognized worldwide.... he is more than just a fighter.. he is more of a master. the one who would teach fighters

he could teach them but he never beat them. That is the bottom line.

Tiger has taken lessons his whole career from guys he could beat playing with one club. Just because Lee could teach fighters doesn't mean he could beat them.

Rasheed1

02-13-2009, 03:31 PM

he could teach them but he never beat them. That is the bottom line.

:oldlol: no need for them to learn from someone who they can already beat.... makes no sense.....

and unless you know for certain someone else is better than him (which you dont, and thats true bottom line) then you cant say that....

Tiger has taken lessons his whole career from guys he could beat playing with one club. Just because Lee could teach fighters doesn't mean he could beat them.

^this is just silly....

Bruce was no ordinary dude ..... in his field he is tiger woods... and his style is worth more than simply a fighting style....

tontoz

02-13-2009, 03:36 PM

:oldlol: no need for them to learn from someone who they can already beat.... makes no sense.....

and unless you know for certain someone else is better than him (which you dont, and thats true bottom line) then you cant say that....

^this is just silly....

Bruce was no ordinary dude ..... in his field he is tiger woods... and his style is worth more than simply a fighting style....

Comparing Lee to Tiger is like comparing Lee to norris. Norris and Tiger beat everyones ass repeatedly. Lee never beat anyone.

You can't be considered a great fighter, let alone the best ever, if you don't fight anyone.

Rasheed1

02-13-2009, 03:48 PM

Comparing Lee to Tiger is like comparing Lee to norris. Norris and Tiger beat everyones ass repeatedly. Lee never beat anyone.

You can't be considered a great fighter, let alone the best ever, if you don't fight anyone.

like I have already stated multiple times...... Bruce was much more than some fighter..... his style is used by alot of these so called fighters....

...... Speaking of trainers... I remember that Bruce lee trained Chuck Norris while he was a competitive fighter..

:confusedshrug: not the other way around....

bottomline... Bruce was no ordinary dude and he wasnt overrated as a martial artist.... he was a legend and his style is recognized world wide and good deal of the best 'fighters' in the world have used him as an inspiration

tontoz

02-13-2009, 04:01 PM

...... Speaking of trainers... I remember that Bruce lee trained Chuck Norris while he was a competitive fighter..

:confusedshrug: not the other way around....

bottomline... Bruce was no ordinary dude and he wasnt overrated as a martial artist.... he was a legend and his style is recognized world wide and good deal of the best 'fighters' in the world have used him as an inspiration

Your memory is a little off. It was lee who started going to watch Norris' fights. norris was already a world champ before he even met Lee.

Lee never kicked above the waist until Norris talked him into it.

like I have already stated multiple times...... Bruce was much more than some fighter..... his style is used by alot of these so called fighters....

he wasn't something more than some fighter. He was something other than a fighter because he didn't fight.

Rasheed1

02-13-2009, 04:30 PM

Your memory is a little off. It was lee who started going to watch Norris' fights. norris was already a world champ before he even met Lee.

I didnt say he taught Norris how to fight.. I said he trained him for a period of time while he was competitive

Lee never kicked above the waist until Norris talked him into it.

I saw the stuff chuck Norris wrote in his book and some of it contradicts other people's accounts.. I dont know if Chuck is lying or telling the truth, I dont really care because none of that dissproves that Bruce Lee was and still is a legend... beyond your average joe schmo fighter

he wasn't something more than some fighter. He was something other than a fighter because he didn't fight.

he definitely was more than a regular fighter or some dude in a tournament because he created a style that fighters use..... so either you got some dumb fighters in the world or you got some people who doubt Bruce because they dont know anything about him

LJJ

02-13-2009, 04:36 PM

I didnt say he taught Norris how to fight.. I said he trained him for a period of time while he was competitive

I saw the stuff chuck Norris wrote in his book and some of it contradicts other people's accounts.. I dont know if Chuck is lying or telling the truth, I dont really care because none of that dissproves that Bruce Lee was and still is a legend... beyond your average joe schmo fighter

he definitely was more than a regular fighter or some dude in a tournament because he created a style that fighters use..... so either you got some dumb fighters in the world or you got some people who doubt Bruce because they dont know anything about him

Your arguments are kind of wearing thin.

"he definitely was more than a regular fighter or some dude in a tournament because he created a style that fighters use"

:rolleyes:

Naismith created basketball, but that doesn't say so much about his basketball skill.

Tontoz has a point. I'm not really a Bruce Lee expert, but one of the good things about fighting is that the actual ability is fearly measurable. You can put two fighters up against each other, give them cups, and most of the time the best fighter is going to win. But apparently Bruce Lee stayed clear of these encounters.

And nobody is arguing Bruce wasn't more than some joe schmo fighter. They are just arguing how much his greatness actually relates to his skills.

tontoz

02-13-2009, 04:38 PM

I didnt say he taught Norris how to fight.. I said he trained him for a period of time while he was competitive

I saw the stuff chuck Norris wrote in his book and some of it contradicts other people's accounts.. I dont know if Chuck is lying or telling the truth, I dont really care because none of that dissproves that Bruce Lee was and still is a legend... beyond your average joe schmo fighter

he definitely was more than a regular fighter or some dude in a tournament because he created a style that fighters use..... so either you got some dumb fighters in the world or you got some people who doubt Bruce because they dont know anything about him

This thread is not asking whether Lee is the greatest martial arts innovator or teacher in history. It is asking if he is the greatest fighter. He wasn't the greatest ( or even a great) fighter because he didn't fight.

You are arguing a completely different topic.

Norris trained with Lee and he trained with a lot of other guys too. But norris was a very accomplished and versatile fighter before he ever met lee. Lee was not his trainer.

Rasheed1

02-13-2009, 04:46 PM

Your arguments are kind of wearing thin.

"he definitely was more than a regular fighter or some dude in a tournament because he created a style that fighters use"

:rolleyes:

Naismith created basketball, but that doesn't say so much about his basketball skill.

Tontoz has a point. I'm not really a Bruce Lee expert, but one of the good things about fighting is that the actual ability is fearly measurable. You can put two fighters up against each other, give them cups, and most of the time the best fighter is going to win. But apparently Bruce Lee stayed clear of these encounters.

And nobody is arguing Bruce wasn't more than some joe schmo fighter. They are just arguing how much his greatness actually relates to his skills.

It all depends on what you care about

some of the posters in here talk like the average kick boxing martial arts guy could compete with Bruce...or that bruce is overrated.. I see they havent watched any of the links even in here on bruce.... Im Laughin at that

You say yourself, you arent a bruce expert...... well watch his documentary and then tell me what you think of him... :confusedshrug:

Im not saying Bruce is the best fighter to ever grace the planet..... Im saying he surpassed that mode entirely ...

he was a teacher, a scholar, and many other things more valuable than a fighter.... he is the guy fighters go to to learn how to hone their trade....

beyond that...... :confusedshrug:

tontoz

02-13-2009, 05:28 PM

It all depends on what you care about

no it doesn't.

The topic of the thread is asking about Lee as a fighter, not as a teacher or martial arts innovator. You are arguing something completely different from the thread topic.

pete's montreux

02-13-2009, 05:35 PM

In fairness to Bruce, we've never really seen him fight. People have been saying a lot of ignorant statements in here about Bruce, myself included, and until we know, which we may never, then It's not really fair to say he can or can't beat some of the guys listed here.

One thing we can all agree on, he was a unique individual, and inspired countless martial artists since his death. Not to mention his freakish physique.

tontoz

02-13-2009, 05:55 PM

In fairness to Bruce, we've never really seen him fight. People have been saying a lot of ignorant statements in here about Bruce, myself included, and until we know, which we may never, then It's not really fair to say he can or can't beat some of the guys listed here.

I am not saying that he couldn't beat other fighters. I am saying he never did. He made the choice not to fight competitively so he can't be considered a great fighter.

pete's montreux

02-13-2009, 06:09 PM

I am not saying that he couldn't beat other fighters. I am saying he never did. He made the choice not to fight competitively so he can't be considered a great fighter.

You're smart enough to know that just because he never fought, which you don't know for sure, doesn't mean he isn't a great fighter.

hateraid

02-13-2009, 06:17 PM

Best fighter known is Fedor.

Although I do believe this theory can never be put to the test because we have not been exposed to the full spectrum of fighting.
There are Shoalin Temple in remote regions that devote themselves to discovering the best mechanisms to engage in combat and put themselves in the threshold of pain. But because of their belief systems will not put these to the test in sport. I'm sure there's some big azz mofo Shoalin master that could do some serious damage in a fight situation.

tontoz

02-13-2009, 06:33 PM

You're smart enough to know that just because he never fought, which you don't know for sure, doesn't mean he isn't a great fighter.

There is no way some can claim to be a great fighter if they don't fight.

You can speculate that he MAY have been able to beat whoever but then i can just as easily say that he MAY have gotten beat by that same guy.

he could have proven himself but he chose not to.

pete's montreux

02-13-2009, 06:35 PM

There is no way some can claim to be a great fighter if they don't fight.

You can speculate that he MAY have been able to beat whoever but then i can just as easily say that he MAY have gotten beat by that same guy.

he could have proven himself but he chose not to.

Did he ever claim he was a great fighter? Just curious.

tontoz

02-13-2009, 06:38 PM

Did he ever claim he was a great fighter? Just curious.

I have no idea but there are people in this thread who are claiming he was. that is the point. in order to be a great fighter you have to actually fight.

Norris did, Lee didn't.

pete's montreux

02-13-2009, 07:01 PM

I have no idea but there are people in this thread who are claiming he was. that is the point. in order to be a great fighter you have to actually fight.

Norris did, Lee didn't.

Can you prove that Lee never fought?

MarloStanfield

02-13-2009, 07:07 PM

Can you prove that Lee never fought?
More importantly can you prove that he did? Without that proof its ridiculous to claim he was a great fighter.

Vragrant

02-13-2009, 07:08 PM

pete's montreux

02-13-2009, 07:09 PM

More importantly can you prove that he did? Without that proof its ridiculous to claim he was a great fighter.

This is my point. You cannot prove he fought, or didn't fight. Without either, it's ridiculous to claim he wasn't a great fighter, or was a great fighter.

tontoz

02-13-2009, 07:22 PM

Can you prove that Lee never fought?

Can you prove he never molested dogs?

He didn't fight competitively. That is a fact. Therefore you can't say that he would have beaten Norris or anyone else.

In order to be considered a great fighter you have to beat the best fighters. He didn't. He made the choice not to try and prove himself in the ring.

MarloStanfield

02-13-2009, 07:25 PM

Has anyone seen A&E's biography on Bruce Lee? The guy used to fight people all the time, even when he was well known. He was constantly challenged my people on set, or people in the street who wanted to see how good he really was. Lee used to beat them up, and apparently even by his won admission, used to have a really bad temper.

Remember that kick where the guy went flying in Enter the Dragon? The show said that kick was real because the guy hit Bruce for real on a previous take and Lee was pissed off about it.
Ok well I'd hope a trained fighter could beat up some dude who challenged him on the street. Once you start training you realize that real badasses don't pick fights with people. Obviously if someone picks a fight with you, you are going to defend yourself but my point is I doubt any legit fighters were walking up to Bruce challenging him.

tontoz

02-13-2009, 07:28 PM

MarloStanfield

02-13-2009, 07:31 PM

Kimbo Slice beat up a lot of guys on the streets. but when he got in the ring he got clowned by a fairy with pink hair.
Exactly and pretty much every1 thought he was a badass too. In reality anyone near his size and with a hint of athleticism who has been training for over 3 years in Jits would choke the sh*t out of him.

Vragrant

02-13-2009, 08:20 PM

Ok well I'd hope a trained fighter could beat up some dude who challenged him on the street. Once you start training you realize that real badasses don't pick fights with people. Obviously if someone picks a fight with you, you are going to defend yourself but my point is I doubt any legit fighters were walking up to Bruce challenging him.

I know what your'e saying. My actual point was that Lee did actually fight people (won a couple boxing tournaments), and wasnt just a movie star which a lot of people claim. Like you said, Lee didnt start these altercations he was a part of.

Kimbo Slice is not really a great comparison with Bruce Lee at all. Kimbo was a streetfighter who only trained seriously for six months before he got beaten, where Lee is a martial artist devoted his whole lifetime to it.. Anybody who follows fighting even superficially knows it was a matter of time before a more experienced figher exposed Kimbo.

RainierBeachPoet

02-14-2009, 07:30 AM

Ok well I'd hope a trained fighter could beat up some dude who challenged him on the street.

street fighting is a whole different ball game. aside from the bruce debate, there are fighters who are stuck in whatever "system" they train in. they might be unprepared for techniques outside their particular system

boxers are tough punchers-- but in a street fight a swift kick to the groin could give the streetfighter the needed advantage

wrestlers are great in close, but a well place kick to the knee could disable him

a well place eye gouge will take out anyone

LJJ

02-14-2009, 09:42 AM

Can you prove that Lee never fought?
We can actually. Bruce Lee didn't live in the 1500s. He lived in the last century. If he had fought in any kind of important tournament or pro fight there would be some kind of record of it.

It's pretty save to say Lee didn't compete in any serious fighting event.

FosterDowner

02-14-2009, 10:09 AM

World's greatest martial artist? Yes...Definately.
World's greatest fight choreographer? Yes..
World's greatest martial arts movies? Yes, in their time.
World's greatest influence on the path all martial arts have taken in the 21st century?? Yup
But the world's greatest fighter? We will never know.

daballa13

02-14-2009, 10:59 AM

daballa13

02-14-2009, 11:01 AM

Kid Yamamoto who is 135 would f*ck up Bruce Lee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8w5hGp0Rmc

I agree Yamamoto is badass and Bruce Lee fought a bunch of scrubs, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar HAHA!

daballa13

02-14-2009, 11:07 AM

I'd bet my life Bruce could dismember, dismantle, devour, and devastate Tyson in a fight in less than a minute.

I just can't fathom how people can think a man who dedicated his life to martial arts couldn't beat a proffesional boxer.

Your a moron, Brock Lesnar who's trained MMA for 1 year beat a man who was an Olympic wrestler and who had around 15 years of experience in MMA, GTFO moron, thats why now a days we have weight classes, Bruce Lee was totally overrated. You make it seem as if Tyson was slow, I bet you anything Lee wasn't even that much faster than a prime Tyson, learn a little about this **** before you talk.

daballa13

02-14-2009, 11:11 AM

http://beat.bodoglife.com/wp-content/uploads/Brock%20Lesnar%20-%202.jpg

Lesnar would beat the piss out of Lee.

Psileas

02-14-2009, 11:27 AM

Bruce Lee - was the world's greatest fighter, ever?

No, just the most well-known. There are legendary martial artists, widely unknown in the USA, but still trained to kill with one blow, who could take on anybody in the world. One example is General Choi Hong Hi, widely considered the founder of modern Taekwondo. A friend who met him mentioned stories of him doing such things as, due to getting bullied by a 300 pound thug, knocking him out with one blow and then getting sued with the bully complaining about having been attacked with a sledgehammer and Choi proving him wrong by braking a road-laying stone with his hand.

Now, there is no way to know whether this is actually true, but this story is not less valid and proven than certain stories about Bruce Lee, which are widely blindly believed, because of his legend which convinced people that everything told about his feats is true.

Psileas

02-14-2009, 11:29 AM

Lesnar would beat the piss out of Lee.

I don't know about Lee specifically, but I'll take an elite martial artist over an elite wrestler. Quickness and technique play a vastly bigger role than strength and size.

pete's montreux

02-14-2009, 12:47 PM

Your a moron, Brock Lesnar who's trained MMA for 1 year beat a man who was an Olympic wrestler and who had around 15 years of experience in MMA, GTFO moron, thats why now a days we have weight classes, Bruce Lee was totally overrated. You make it seem as if Tyson was slow, I bet you anything Lee wasn't even that much faster than a prime Tyson, learn a little about this **** before you talk.

Lee threw punches from his hip in five hundreths of a second. His slowest time? Eight hundreths of a second.

Lee could get off 6 punches before Lesnar raised his arm to swing.

Bruce Lee > wrestlers

Sorry, you lose.

Legendofthe718

02-14-2009, 12:56 PM

Guns>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lee, fedor, mma, Kung fu and any other martial art.

tontoz

02-14-2009, 02:04 PM

street fighting is a whole different ball game. aside from the bruce debate, there are fighters who are stuck in whatever "system" they train in. they might be unprepared for techniques outside their particular system

boxers are tough punchers-- but in a street fight a swift kick to the groin could give the streetfighter the needed advantage

wrestlers are great in close, but a well place kick to the knee could disable him

a well place eye gouge will take out anyone

WTF does a kick to the groin or eye gouging have to do with being a great fighter? A woman could do that.

tontoz

02-14-2009, 02:04 PM

Lee threw punches from his hip in five hundreths of a second. His slowest time? Eight hundreths of a second.

Lee could get off 6 punches before Lesnar raised his arm to swing.

Bruce Lee > wrestlers

Sorry, you lose.

If you think Bruce Lee would have a chance in the ring with lesnar all i can do is :roll:

pete's montreux

02-14-2009, 02:06 PM

If you think Bruce Lee would have a chance in the ring with lesnar all i can do is :roll:

Where does anyone mention a ring? You just made that up out of thin air.

tontoz

02-14-2009, 02:41 PM

Where does anyone mention a ring? You just made that up out of thin air.

oh so you were talking about nut kicking and eye gouging? Lee might have a chance if he can do that. :lol

Jackass18

02-15-2009, 03:47 AM

It seems like some of you think that only one side would use eye pokes and nut shots. Just because somebody is a wrestler or a boxer doesn't mean they can't poke someone in the eye or kick someone in the nuts, as well.

Too many people overrate Bruce Lee. I'm sorry, but Lee would not beat well trained fighters twice his size. He'd get f*cking killed. I don't know what he could even pretend to do against someone with the size, strength, speed and athleticism of Brock Lesnar. Size has proven to be a big factor in fighting. There's weight classes for a reason. There is a point where size starts becoming detrimental, though. A washed up Ken Shamrock just beat a guy twice his size. When you're a fat sack of sh!t like the guy he just fought, then you're going to get your ass kicked by guys far smaller than you.

RainierBeachPoet

02-15-2009, 07:49 AM

WTF does a kick to the groin or eye gouging have to do with being a great fighter? A woman could do that.

i was describing why street fighting-- where there are no rules-- is different from the other forms of fighting which have parameters

in part, this is a response to a larger question of this thread: what would be the rules of a fight that determines "the greatest fighter"

back in the middle ages, it was pretty simple i suppose: the one who is alive after a fight. today, to respond to this thread:confusedshrug:

LJJ

02-15-2009, 09:06 AM

i was describing why street fighting-- where there are no rules-- is different from the other forms of fighting which have parameters

in part, this is a response to a larger question of this thread: what would be the rules of a fight that determines "the greatest fighter"

back in the middle ages, it was pretty simple i suppose: the one who is alive after a fight. today, to respond to this thread:confusedshrug:
Again, this is just a huge reach as an argument. I don't really think you have thought this through.

Of course Lee would have a better chance in an uncontrolled environment. Anyone would have a better chance. You'd have a reasonable chance of beating Bruce Lee in a street fight if you know the proper technique for the "kick in groin, knock lights out" combo, but that doesn't make you a better fighter even in the middle ages. I'm completely clueless why you brought up the middle ages also, tbh.

tontoz

02-15-2009, 12:43 PM

Again, this is just a huge reach as an argument. I don't really think you have thought this through.

Of course Lee would have a better chance in an uncontrolled environment. Anyone would have a better chance. You'd have a reasonable chance of beating Bruce Lee in a street fight if you know the proper technique for the "kick in groin, knock lights out" combo, but that doesn't make you a better fighter even in the middle ages. I'm completely clueless why you brought up the middle ages also, tbh.

Seriously how many great fighters are recognized as great fighters because of eye gouging or groin kicks?

in part, this is a response to a larger question of this thread: what would be the rules of a fight that determines "the greatest fighter"

The rules are they have to beat other great fighters in competition. That is what all the other people known as great fighters did. Lee didn't.

RainierBeachPoet

02-15-2009, 04:41 PM

I'm completely clueless why you brought up the middle ages also, tbh.

it was a little cryptic now that i re-read it.

i brought it up as an example of a litmus test as to who was the best fighter: the one who was alive and killed his opponant.

with the title of this thread "worlds greatest fighter" it really is anyone's guess who is the greatest because no "rules" had been set. whose "style" of fighting do you want to use? whatever you choose, the fighter who ahs trained in that particular system would have the advantage

i brought up street fighters because, it is the closest thing to "fighting for your life" there is. in such a fight, anything goes.

tontoz

02-15-2009, 05:21 PM

it was a little cryptic now that i re-read it.

i brought it up as an example of a litmus test as to who was the best fighter: the one who was alive and killed his opponant.

with the title of this thread "worlds greatest fighter" it really is anyone's guess who is the greatest because no "rules" had been set. whose "style" of fighting do you want to use? whatever you choose, the fighter who ahs trained in that particular system would have the advantage

i brought up street fighters because, it is the closest thing to "fighting for your life" there is. in such a fight, anything goes.

So why don't you name some street fighters who are widely considered great fighters?

RainierBeachPoet

02-15-2009, 08:47 PM

So why don't you name some street fighters who are widely considered great fighters?

that is a funny question that i ahve no idea what the answer is

in many ways, street fighters, by definition, are anonymous and stay in the shadows. perhaps they gain a certain reputation in their own gang or in a jail or prison. my guess is that a good place to start is the 23 hour lockdown section

perhaps there is a website on this:confusedshrug:

VCMVP1551

02-15-2009, 08:49 PM

I just got an Enter The Dragon DVD in the mail today. One of my favorites, I finally got it on a DVD.

tontoz

02-15-2009, 09:10 PM

that is a funny question that i ahve no idea what the answer is

in many ways, street fighters, by definition, are anonymous and stay in the shadows. perhaps they gain a certain reputation in their own gang or in a jail or prison. my guess is that a good place to start is the 23 hour lockdown section

perhaps there is a website on this:confusedshrug:

All the people who are widely recognized as great fighters proved themselves in the ring/cage. Lee didnt.

Street fighting is irrelevant in regards to identifying great fighters.

BlueCrayon

04-03-2011, 10:31 AM

Bumping this thread, just saw his "Famous Families" documentary today.

pete's montreux

04-03-2011, 10:34 AM

Bumping this thread, just saw his "Famous Families" documentary today.

Is it new?

BlueCrayon

04-03-2011, 11:18 AM

Is it new?

Nope, the I saw it on youtube and it was posted in 2007.

OhNoTimNoSho

04-03-2011, 06:48 PM

No, just the most well-known. There are legendary martial artists, widely unknown in the USA, but still trained to kill with one blow, who could take on anybody in the world. One example is General Choi Hong Hi, widely considered the founder of modern Taekwondo. A friend who met him mentioned stories of him doing such things as, due to getting bullied by a 300 pound thug, knocking him out with one blow and then getting sued with the bully complaining about having been attacked with a sledgehammer and Choi proving him wrong by braking a road-laying stone with his hand.

Now, there is no way to know whether this is actually true, but this story is not less valid and proven than certain stories about Bruce Lee, which are widely blindly believed, because of his legend which convinced people that everything told about his feats is true.
That legend story is just ridiculous... to imagine somewhere in China there was a 300 pound dude when all they eat is rice and shit and all Chinese are like 2 ft tall and on top of that this thug dude must have been the dumbest dude of all time bullying a martial arts legend, cmon man thats ridiculous

Javat_90

04-03-2011, 06:52 PM

The thing I most admire about Bruce Lee are not really his fights or his physical power (which are incredible also).

The thing I most admire from him is his mentality and his speeches. The way he contemplated and lived his life.

Timmy D for MVP

04-03-2011, 07:35 PM

All the people who are widely recognized as great fighters proved themselves in the ring/cage. Lee didnt.

Street fighting is irrelevant in regards to identifying great fighters.

In today's day and age with professionalism having been established well ago it's hard for anyone not in the organized world to gain notoriety.

But going all the way back localized fighters would gain notoriety through amateur bragging rights bouts. I have to imagine that in a world of schools of fighting, which would really lend to the bragging rights scene, this was the case as well.

Lebowsky

04-03-2011, 10:40 PM

Jackass18

04-04-2011, 12:36 AM

Go with people who have verified records as actual fighters instead of rumors, myth and fairy tales. Most streetfighters I've seen have rather poor technique and just throw wild haymakers or suckerpunch some unsuspecting guy.

Psileas

04-05-2011, 03:08 PM

That legend story is just ridiculous... to imagine somewhere in China there was a 300 pound dude when all they eat is rice and shit and all Chinese are like 2 ft tall and on top of that this thug dude must have been the dumbest dude of all time bullying a martial arts legend, cmon man thats ridiculous

1. You're probably kidding.
2. China has a population of 1.3 Giga.
3. Chinese people are not that short and small. Yao, among else, is Chinese. Sun Ming Ming is Chinese. The tallest woman alive is Chinese. The tallest woman ever measured was Chinese.
4. Who said it happened in China? He wasn't Chinese himself BTW, he was Korean and had visited dozens of countries.
5. Like I had already written, there can be no way to prove or disprove this. But it's more refreshing to look at the whole topic in more detail than just reproducing "of course Bruce Lee was the GOAT, after all, I don't know of anyone else" and put forth his own urban legends, a lot of which are equally unproven. Just research the history of any martial art and you'll find the names of a lot of greats you've probably never heard about and popular myths/stories about each one.

pauk

04-05-2011, 03:20 PM

LT Ice Cream

04-05-2011, 03:24 PM

rezznor

04-05-2011, 03:27 PM

not trying to discredit Bruce because the man is a legend and was instrumental in introducing martial arts to the rest of the world but it is very hard to verify street legends. Without actual sanctioned or recorded fights there's no telling how great these street fighters really were.

Think of the type of stories Kimbo Slice would have had if he went from backyard fighting straight into action movies without ever getting exposed in MMA.

rezznor

04-05-2011, 03:32 PM

striking? yes....

but fighting? i dont think so... a combination of superiour wrestling/bjj always kills striking....... unless u are lucky enough to land a hail mary shot and KO him out before he brings you down and brakes your limbs or puts you to sleep or simply ground n pounds your face beyond recognition...
if you are comparing Bruce in the 70's to fighters of this era then of course, fighting has evolved. training has also evolved. but you are wrong to think that Bruce was 1 dimensional. He is often considered one of the fathers of MMA. He took the best techniques from all the martial arts and combined him. He wasn't just a striker, he was well versed in joint locks as well as other techniques. He discarded customs that he thought were useless in areal fight such as katas.

pauk

04-05-2011, 03:32 PM

No one will ever know. There are no records of Bruce Lee actually fighting anyone in real life. He looked great because of his films. He was a master at his craft, but many people can look great just practicing martial arts. If you're talking about actual fighting, it's a whole different story.

If you were to put Bruce Lee in the cage with some of today's top MMA fighters, he would probably lose because he didn't have much knowledge of the ground game.

dude bruce lee actually was the one who envisioned and hoped and said all the time that a mma fighting sport should be legal and that there will be a sport like that in the future..... he is one of the fathers to MMA.... if he didnt die HE would be the one creating this sport u see today literally....

he is famous for his striking... but he was excellent at JIU JITSU aswell........ something he portrayed at the start of the movie ENTER THE DRAGON..... where he submits samo hung with an arm-bar.... yes its just a movie... but he talked about it all the time about MMA and jiu jitsu and so on in his books.... u saw him portray MMA sport of today exactly in the movie aswell.... the small ounce gloves and MMA ring.... and his "style" he created is very similar to MMA... jeet kune do

but i still say.... WRESTLING........... that would be his MASSIVE WEAKNESS.....

if i had to think of somebody today that would resemble him in MMA that would be ANDERSON SILVA...... the best striker... but wrestling is a weakness...... BRUCE LEE would be exactly like that.... but with even better striking.... and probably even less wrestling and less jiu jitsu maybe........ but hey its freakin bruce lee....... he sees your moves in slow motion..... before u know it ur laying down icecold...

now i could be entirely wrong.... he could be a good wrestler afterall.... if he can just evolve takedown defense.... he would be a NIGHTMARE..... BOOM HS every fight... game over in max 10-30 seconds lol

Clippersfan86

04-05-2011, 04:08 PM

Like others have said it's very hard to judge "best ever" when so many great ones, including millions of unknowns have come along. What I will say... is Bruce was one of the original pioneers of MMA and was a top 5 athlete of all time.

A lot of people here are talking about him but are very misinformed. This was a 145 pound man that CURLED 95 pounds. He could do 500 straight 1 arm pushups.. and over 200 straight 2 finger ones. Do you guys realize the level of conditioning required for these things?? He worked out intensely for an average of 6-7 hours a day. His wife Linda often said in interviews that he worked out so much Brandon and her didn't see him much.

Bruce Lee's speed was absolutely astounding. Remember force is mass x acceleration. So though he was light weight the force he generated was on par with these 220 pound MMA fighters you guys are talking about due to his speed.. or close to. The only pro fighter I've seen with Bruce's footwork was Muhummad Ali and many consider Ali the greatest pro athlete of all time.. so that's a huge compliment to Bruce.

So the answer to this question is nobody will ever know. What I will say though is that those saying he wouldn't survive fights with current MMA guys are so wrong. In his books he talks about how if he has to.. he will bite someone to win a fight. Not only did he have superior technique, speed and athleticism but he didn't fight with rules. He would be banned from MMA after he killed a few people probably.

Bruce died very young at 32 years old. He had just made his big break a couple years before. We didn't get a chance to see him at his peak and most of the fights he had were underground or not recorded. It's not a myth but a fact that he was involved in bad blood with Japan AND China. The Chinese were angry for him being a movie star teaching Gung Fu to Americans and Europeans. They viewed it as disrespect to teach sacred arts. So not only do many sources say he fought the world's greatest Gung Fu masters and won... but he had to deal with Japanese Karate guys always wanting to test him in the streets and everywhere he went. On the set of Enter the Dragon the crew on set said the extras and co stars that were very good martial artists would always challenge Bruce during breaks and Bruce would humiliate them.

Japan and China had a big rift during that time following the war and the invasion of Japan into China. Chinese people were viewed and treated like 2nd class citizens and enslaved just like Blacks were in America. So Bruce talked about the racism he faced and how the Japanese that challenged him always called him a dog all all kinds of stuff. Also other slurs equivalent to calling a black guy a ni****.

In the scene in the movie where Bob Wall goes for Bruce with the broken beer bottle to slash him and he kicks him in the chest... there was actually drama while filming that. Bob Wall had a lot of envy towards Bruce and while filming purposely slashed Bruce's hand... and Bruce waited to shoot the scene.... and on the kick to his chest he said he went 100 percent. Bob Wall got all of his ribs broken.

Also noticed the guy on first page said his buddies in Tae Kwon Do told him Jackie Chan is better... that's a big lol. First off Tae Kwon Do is a national sport.. and not many within the Martial Arts world take it too seriously. It's way too fancy and teaches a bunch of BS that would never work in a real fight. Very impractical. Tae Kwon Do is more for show. Jackie got his start as a stunt man. He's a very good martial artist but nowhere near Jet Li level. In all of his movies he spends half his time on ropes, something Bruce didn't do.

As for Jet Li again not as good as Bruce but much closer. Jet Li actually grew up in the Shaolin Temple in China and started his training at a very early age (I think it was 6 or 7).

Timmy D for MVP

04-05-2011, 04:19 PM

Clippersfan86

04-05-2011, 04:23 PM

^^^

A very well written thought out and concise post dude.

But anybody worth their salt will have to think hard calling Ali the greatest heavyweight.... let alone boxer... let alone athlete of all time.

Sorry to nitpick. Good post. :cheers:

I wasn't alive during his time boxing.... but I mean he's been voted that.. and in TIME Magazines huge spread he was named the greatest athlete of all time. Not that I necessarily agree :D. :cheers: Thanks for the compliment.

Timmy D for MVP

04-05-2011, 05:04 PM

I wasn't alive during his time boxing.... but I mean he's been voted that.. and in TIME Magazines huge spread he was named the greatest athlete of all time. Not that I necessarily agree :D. :cheers: Thanks for the compliment.

I would guess that it's a collection of his greatness as a boxer along with his self promotion and really helping to usher in popular althletics as we know it today. TO sum up: his influence.

Clippersfan86

04-05-2011, 06:14 PM

I would guess that it's a collection of his greatness as a boxer along with his self promotion and really helping to usher in popular althletics as we know it today. TO sum up: his influence.

Ah probably. I like boxing but will not pretend to be super knowledgeable about it. Sadly it seems to be a dying sport. I know back in the day it was like the most or one of the most popular sports in America. Now it's all about MMA for most people.

Saintsfan1992

04-05-2011, 10:51 PM

Ah probably. I like boxing but will not pretend to be super knowledgeable about it. Sadly it seems to be a dying sport. I know back in the day it was like the most or one of the most popular sports in America. Now it's all about MMA for most people.

Sike