The 00's = the death of defense in the NBA? No contact league?

[bruceblitz]

The death of defense?
by Roland Lazenby / October 20, 2006

[bruceblitz]

All anyone really needs to do is look at the numbers as soon as hand-checking was eliminated in 2005. You have 4 players today who have had 60+pt games since then - all perimeters - AI, Gil, KB, Tmac. Before 2005, the only active player with a 60pt game was Shaq. It remains the single biggest change in the general play of the game and it's why Winter hates it. Check that, Tmac's 62 came just before the total elimination of hand-check - but remember, hand-checking was already curtailed in '94 from the backcourt to the opposite line because the NBA panicked after MJ suddenly retired. So you have 1 active perimeter today and Shaq who scored 60+ before the toal riddance of hand-checking in 2005. Of course, we all know what happened to the top scoring averages of the perimeters after 2005. For the first time in 30 years, you had 3 scorers over 30ppg in one year and they were all perimeters. 9 of the top 10 scorers were perimeters (except Dirk but he's plays perimeter too). The shift towards perimeter scoring became massive, inefficient and downright absurd. Notice that without handchecking, you see guys a lot farther away from the ball handler and as a result you see more short players shooting over tall players than ever before.

[Scott Pippen]

I believe this article has been posted before, but this is the one that Tex Winter nailed.


As a result, defense now becomes a matter of waiting for the offensive player to make a mistake, rather than forcing a turnover, Winter said.



At least this has improved last year with the Celtics and their KG/Tom. T addittion. I have never seen a team better at forcing TO's and capitalizing on them the the Bulls with the 2 dobermans. Cannot go wrong with any of the championship teams in my opinion (when healthy).

[Fatal9]

It is easy to hand pick youtube videos, use anecdotes and say MJ or Kobe or Lebron have faced the tougher defenses (something that only trolls like KB42PAH and loki resort to).

Lately I've been finding the Jordan diehards are getting a little too carried away with their own revisionist histories. So lets look at the one of the most accurate stats when it comes to team defense and how it has varied from Jordan's era to this one; the defensive rating, which is points allowed by a team per 100 possessions. Three points to consider:

1. The Spurs last year had a better defensive ratings than the Pistons D from '88-90, the Knicks D in 92-93, 94-95, 95-96.
2. The Celtics last year and Pistons in '03-'04 had a better defensive rating than any team Jordan has ever faced.
3. The teams Jordan has faced in the finals (6) have had a defense rating of 104.6, the teams Kobe has faced in the finals (5) have had a rating of 99.2 and the Spurs had a rating of 99.9 when Lebron faced them. These are just staggering numbers.

I am a Jordan fan myself and consider it unquestionable as to who the GOAT is, but the "defense was stifling back then" myth needs to end.

[Abraham Lincoln]

It is easy to hand pick youtube videos, use anecdotes and say MJ or Kobe or Lebron have faced the tougher defenses (something that only trolls like KB42PAH and loki resort to).

Lately I've been finding the Jordan diehards are getting a little too carried away with their own revisionist histories. So lets look at the one of the most accurate stats when it comes to team defense and how it has varied from Jordan's era to this one; the defensive rating, which is points allowed by a team per 100 possessions. Three points to consider:

1. The Spurs last year had a better defensive ratings than the Pistons D from '88-90, the Knicks D in 92-93, 94-95, 95-96.
2. The Celtics last year and Pistons in '03-'04 had a better defensive rating than any team Jordan has ever faced.
3. The teams Jordan has faced in the finals (6) have had a defense rating of 104.6, the teams Kobe has faced in the finals (5) have had a rating of 99.2 and the Spurs had a rating of 99.9 when Lebron faced them. These are just staggering numbers.

I am a Jordan fan myself and consider it unquestionable as to who the GOAT is, but the "defense was stifling back then" myth needs to end.
All the wise men of the land do not rely on statistics alone and would also factor in the poor offensive execution and slower paced game in the modern day National Basketball Association.

[juju151111]

It is easy to hand pick youtube videos, use anecdotes and say MJ or Kobe or Lebron have faced the tougher defenses (something that only trolls like KB42PAH and loki resort to).

Lately I've been finding the Jordan diehards are getting a little too carried away with their own revisionist histories. So lets look at the one of the most accurate stats when it comes to team defense and how it has varied from Jordan's era to this one; the defensive rating, which is points allowed by a team per 100 possessions. Three points to consider:

1. The Spurs last year had a better defensive ratings than the Pistons D from '88-90, the Knicks D in 92-93, 94-95, 95-96.
2. The Celtics last year and Pistons in '03-'04 had a better defensive rating than any team Jordan has ever faced.
3. The teams Jordan has faced in the finals (6) have had a defense rating of 104.6, the teams Kobe has faced in the finals (5) have had a rating of 99.2 and the Spurs had a rating of 99.9 when Lebron faced them. These are just staggering numbers.

I am a Jordan fan myself and consider it unquestionable as to who the GOAT is, but the "defense was stifling back then" myth needs to end.
lol teams back then scored more and were more uptempo. In the late 90s teams ppg went down, but yet MJ still dominated. If you put the 89-90 pistons or the knick in this era it will translate different averges because most teams run half court sets today and have different rules.

[Fatal9]

All the wise men of the land do not rely on statistics alone and would also factor in the poor offensive execution and slower paced game in the modern day National Basketball Association.
Pace is adjusted for as it is per 100 possessions.

Anyone who considers perimeter defense in the 80's to be better than today is kidding themselves. I've seen dozens of games where the defensive strategy was "lets just hope they miss open shots outside of 15 feet".

[bruceblitz]

Pace is adjusted for as it is per 100 possessions.

Anyone who considers perimeter defense in the 80's to be better than today is kidding themselves. I've seen dozens of games where the defensive strategy was "lets just hope they miss open shots outside of 15 feet".
You are using a team stat to compare the eras? You aren't taking into account that there were more passes per play, more team play, better offenses run instead of one on one, players weren't "entitled" to 20+ shots like today because they think they are superstars, fg% was higher, all because teams would work together as a group to get better looks, they ran the floor better and more often, why don't you compare perimeter scorers of yester-year to now. That's the big change. Now perimeter players are allowed to get to the basket with much more ease. Give up! You lose!

:hammertime:

[oh the horror]

Come onnnnnnnnnn now.


You can find stats, and or whatever so support any opinion at ANY time it would seem, but the fact remains, the defense was in fact TOUGHER back then.

[MaxFly]

I have to ask this...

The argument has been made repeatedly that our current era lacks the defensive intensity and solidness of previous eras, especially the 90s, because of the elimination of the handcheck... Many believe that the ability to handcheck made defenses tougher.

Jordan was always known as a great defensive player, however, with the elimination of handchecking, wouldn't Jordan be a worse defender now than he was in the 80s and 90s if this correlation between handchecking and defense was agreed upon. Did handchecking in the 80s and 90s make Jordan look like a better defender than he would look in today's league?

[Fatal9]

players weren't "entitled" to 20+ shots like today because they think they are superstars, fg% was higher, all because teams would work together as a group to get better looks
Top five scorers FGA per game today: 20.4

In 2008: 19.2
In 2007: 21.2
In 2006: 22.9
In 2005: 20.9

In 1989: 20.7
In 1990: 21.1
In 1991: 20.8
In 1992: 19.8
In 1993: 20.7

The paces of the teams of all the top scorers are comparable as well. The star players will always get their shots, it's always been like that.

Another myth busted :oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

I have to ask this...

The argument has been made repeatedly that our current era lacks the defensive intensity and solidness of previous eras, especially the 90s, because of the elimination of the handcheck... Many believe that the ability to handcheck made defenses tougher.

Jordan was always known as a great defensive player, however, with the elimination of handchecking, wouldn't Jordan be a worse defender now than he was in the 80s and 90s if this correlation between handchecking and defense was agreed upon. Did handchecking in the 80s and 90s make Jordan look like a better defender than he would look in today's league?
This I can agree with to a certain extent, the thing that would still make Jordan an elite defender today was his athleticism, lateral movement, quick reaction time, and footwork. That being said there would be a drop-off on the defensive "stats" and abilities or he would foul out a lot. As far as offense though, for instance the year Jordan averaged 37+ppg he would average over 40 and near 45 points per game in today's game.

[oh the horror]

This I can agree with to a certain extent, the thing that would still make Jordan an elite defender today was his athleticism, lateral movement, quick reaction time, and footwork. That being said there would be a drop-off on the defensive "stats" and abilities or he would foul out a lot. As far as offense though, for instance the year Jordan averaged 37+ppg he would average over 40 and near 45 points per game in today's game.


That was a good question, and I have to agree with this answer fully.

[MaxFly]

This I can agree with to a certain extent, the thing that would still make Jordan an elite defender today was his athleticism, lateral movement, quick reaction time, and footwork. That being said there would be a drop-off on the defensive "stats" and abilities or he would foul out a lot. As far as offense though, for instance the year Jordan averaged 37+ppg he would average over 40 and near 45 points per game in today's game.

Ah... I see... So Jordan wouldn't really be as great as he appeared to be in the 80s and 90s; the hand check ruled boosted his ability. Without the handcheck rule, he'd still be a great defender, but not really as great as he was back in the 80s and 90s?

[bruceblitz]

Top five scorers FGA per game today: 20.4

In 2008: 19.2
In 2007: 21.2
In 2006: 22.9
In 2005: 20.9

In 1989: 20.7
In 1990: 21.1
In 1991: 20.8
In 1992: 19.8
In 1993: 20.7

The paces of the teams of all the top scorers are comparable as well. The star players will always get their shots, it's always been like that.

Another myth busted :oldlol:


No, you don't get it, you have more perimeter players taking that many shots per game (aka sf's, sg's, pg's.) Also, Kobe led the league in shots attempted 4 years in his career, he only has 2 scoring titles, in contrast Iverson led the league in shots attempted for 4 years of his career and won 4 scoring titles. Kobe is a shot jacking volume scorer. Period.

[bruceblitz]

No, you don't get it, you have more perimeter players taking that many shots per game (aka sf's, sg's, pg's.) Also, Kobe led the league in shots attempted 4 years in his career, he only has 2 scoring titles, in contrast Iverson led the league in shots attempted for 4 years of his career and won 4 scoring titles. Kobe is a shot jacking volume scorer. Period.

It's not just the amount of shots or points the perimeter players are scoring now, it's the type of shots, they get to the rim more:

See:

Iverson
Wade
LeBron

[smith]

Oh, and don't even get me started on the way refs call traveling...or more like how players use that nowadays.

[Fatal9]

Oh, and don't even get me started on the way refs call traveling...or more like how players use that nowadays.
Yes, everything back then was tightly regulated and all players would be capable of being on this year's all-NBA defense team.

This **** is ridiculous. Letting the travel slide has always been a criticism of the league.

[Fatal9]

No, you don't get it, you have more perimeter players taking that many shots per game (aka sf's, sg's, pg's.) Also, Kobe led the league in shots attempted 4 years in his career, he only has 2 scoring titles, in contrast Iverson led the league in shots attempted for 4 years of his career and won 4 scoring titles. Kobe is a shot jacking volume scorer. Period.
What does this have to do with anything?

You go from saying players weren't entitled to 20 shots a game like now (which they were) to some how criticizing a single player in Kobe. I think the agenda is clear by now...

Meet my ignore list, troll. It would be one thing if you were smart, but you're the KB42PAH version of a Jordan fan. You use literally the same method as him (show some youtube videos, some anecdotes, some quotes from players etc.).

[MaxFly]

As far as offense though, for instance the year Jordan averaged 37+ppg he would average over 40 and near 45 points per game in today's game.

Incidentally, they year Jordan averaged 37+ points a game, the average NBA team gave up 109.9 points a game. The tempo of the game was much faster. In contrast, the average current NBA team has significantly slowed down the tempo of the game to the point where the average team only gives up 99.6 points a game... a little more than 10 fewer points scored per game, per team. My guess is that you're saying defense has deteriorated to such an extent that Jordan could average nearly 8 more points a game more inspite of the fact that the game has slowed down so considerably...

[bruceblitz]

Incidentally, they year Jordan averaged 37+ points a game, the average NBA team gave up 109.9 points a game. The tempo of the game was much faster. In contrast, the average current NBA team has significantly slowed down the tempo of the game to the point where the average team only gives up 99.6 points a game... a little more than 10 fewer points scored per game, per team. My guess is that you're saying defense has deteriorated to such an extent that Jordan could average nearly 8 more points a game more inspite of the fact that the game has slowed down so considerably...
How would Jordan have been able to deal with:

Shaq vs Jordan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkuQQxh-pc

Jordan was 38 years old in the videos under this line
____________________________________________
Jordan vs Pierce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKS7uZ40kqU

Jordan vs KG, last years DPOY:
(wth KG actually guarding him)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMd1m-OOWH0


You people who think Jordan wouldn't score more ppg today, than he did in the past, clearly didn't see the likes of the Heat, Hornets, Blazers, Sonics, all the way down to Mashburn/Jackson/Blackman Mavs defend MJ. Clearly you have your head up your ass when it comes to the history of NBA defenders.

[Jacks3]

How would Jordan have been able to deal with:

Shaq vs Jordan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkuQQxh-pc

Jordan was 38 years old in the videos under this line
____________________________________________
Jordan vs Pierce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKS7uZ40kqU

Jordan vs KG, last years DPOY:
(wth KG actually guarding him)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMd1m-OOWH0


You people who think Jordan wouldn't score more ppg today, than he did in the past, clearly didn't see the likes of the Heat, Hornets, Blazers, Sonics, all the way down to Mashburn/Jackson/Blackman Mavs defend MJ. Clearly you have your head up your ass when it comes to the history of NBA defenders.
Good job ignoring MaxFly's post. :rolleyes:

[juju151111]

Incidentally, they year Jordan averaged 37+ points a game, the average NBA team gave up 109.9 points a game. The tempo of the game was much faster. In contrast, the average current NBA team has significantly slowed down the tempo of the game to the point where the average team only gives up 99.6 points a game... a little more than 10 fewer points scored per game, per team. My guess is that you're saying defense has deteriorated to such an extent that Jordan could average nearly 8 more points a game more inspite of the fact that the game has slowed down so considerably...
It doesn't matter.KB averged 35 ppg in this era on 45%.Who cares wat the ratings were MJ still took the same amount of attempts even with the faster pace. Why didn't MJ production decrease in the rarly 90s with the defense ppg dropping??

[juju151111]

Good job ignoring MaxFly's post. :rolleyes:
I just answered his post.blitz doesn't need to.

[bruceblitz]

Good job ignoring MaxFly's post. :rolleyes:
Still no response to this:
How would Jordan have been able to deal with:

Shaq vs Jordan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkuQQxh-pc

Jordan was 38 years old in the videos under this line
____________________________________________
Jordan vs Pierce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKS7uZ40kqU

Jordan vs KG, last years DPOY:
(wth KG actually guarding him)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMd1m-OOWH0

[bruceblitz]

[QUOTE=bruceblitz]The death of defense?
by Roland Lazenby / October 20, 2006

[Cyclone112]

Unfortunately Fatal9, it sounds like you are one of few logical, realistic fans of basketball who has known the sport for a long time which even excludes myself. I'm 24 and even I only really witnessed Jordan in the second three peat where I was at an age where I still couldn't fully comprehend everything I was seeing. In order for someone to really compare across eras they would have to be like 40+ years old as watching basketball when you are 10 doesn't really count. Even then it is generally a matter of opinion.

People like bruceblitz and KB42PAH are just so consumed by their own love for a player you literally can't reason with them. Even if someone had hard evidence that Jordan/Kobe was better, the other one wouldn't believe it. There are just too many differences between now and then to accurately compare anything statistically and without statistics it just turns into each persons own interpretation.

Uptempo basketball plus more of a bigmen oriented league = higher ppg and higher fg%. slower pace plus perimeter player oriented league = lower ppg and lower fg%. You just can't compare stats like that because the league is so different. You can try doing stuff like per 100 possessions to compensate for the difference in uptempo basketball but that literally doesn't take into account anything. It's just a mathematical way of attempting to compare similar statistics over different scenarios.

All you can do is try to assess the different situations and establish your own opinion, it's just too bad that there are people that take it to the extreme like KB42PAH and bruceblitz who attempt to "prove" that so-and-so is the best player alive or in any era etc which generally has the opposite affect of making people hate the player they are speaking about.

[bruceblitz]

Unfortunately Fatal9, it sounds like you are one of few logical, realistic fans of basketball who has known the sport for a long time which even excludes myself. I'm 24 and even I only really witnessed Jordan in the second three peat where I was at an age where I still couldn't fully comprehend everything I was seeing. In order for someone to really compare across eras they would have to be like 40+ years old as watching basketball when you are 10 doesn't really count. Even then it is generally a matter of opinion.

People like bruceblitz and KB42PAH are just so consumed by their own love for a player you literally can't reason with them. Even if someone had hard evidence that Jordan/Kobe was better, the other one wouldn't believe it. There are just too many differences between now and then to accurately compare anything statistically and without statistics it just turns into each persons own interpretation.

Uptempo basketball plus more of a bigmen oriented league = higher ppg and higher fg%. slower pace plus perimeter player oriented league = lower ppg and lower fg%. You just can't compare stats like that because the league is so different. You can try doing stuff like per 100 possessions to compensate for the difference in uptempo basketball but that literally doesn't take into account anything. It's just a mathematical way of attempting to compare similar statistics over different scenarios.

All you can do is try to assess the different situations and establish your own opinion, it's just too bad that there are people that take it to the extreme like KB42PAH and bruceblitz who attempt to "prove" that so-and-so is the best player alive or in any era etc which generally has the opposite affect of making people hate the player they are speaking about.

kb42pah is a blowhole who uses selective editing and selective opinion making. He proves nothing with FACTS. At the very least, I prove everything I state with FACTS! The day kb42pah learns how to be realistic should be an American national holiday.

[Cyclone112]

kb42pah is a blowhole who uses selective editing and selective opinion making. He proves nothing with FACTS. At the very least, I prove everything I state with FACTS! The day kb42pah learns how to be realistic should be an American national holiday.

He does the exact same thing you do. You both are overly aggressive and insulting when trying to get your point across. You both don't listen to a word anyone says. You both use quotes, articles and self made youtube videos to "prove" points. I am a Jordan fan, I think Jordan is GOAT and I also think your posts make people HATE Jordan. You aren't helping Jordan's case. You aren't making people respect him or swaying their opinion into thinking he is GOAT. You are making people who love Kobe love Kobe and hate Jordan even more. People like you cause such huge rifts between athletes when there shouldn't be one. It should be easily possible to love Jordan AND Bryant but you easily help ruin that

All people like you and KB42PAH do is piss everyone off and make us hate the player you are vouching for. If you really love Jordan the way you say you do. Stop coming on message boards and posting 30 times a day attacking people. Make some youtube videos of Jordan that praise Jordan without purposely discrediting other players and leave it at that. Fans like you whether its music, sports, movies etc are bad. I feel sorry for anyone that has fans like you

[yobore]

First I know Jordan is the GOAT. But I think this era is as good defensively as any. Defense like everything in basketball is always becoming more sophisticated.

I don't buy that as time goes on humans have become worse basketball players when there are so many more people playing at much earlier ages, and there is so much footage and previous experience to stand on. It is just not statistically likely. The game will always evolve until the interest in basketball decreases.

[stephanieg]

1. Leaguewide Ortg/Drtg (they must be identical, 'natch) and TS% have remained fairly consistent since 1980 except for some highly volatile action from the lock out 1999 season until 2004 or 2005 or so. Current levels since then are back to normal and you can draw a line between now and any normal year in the 90s or 80s.

2. Team or league pace has zero influence on high usage number one options such as Jordan, Kobe, West, Bird, Dr. J, Shaq, etc. FGA do though. They WILL get their 18-25 FGA whether the pace is 105, 95, or (god forbid this ever happens) 85. Faced with less global FGA, their teams would be idiotic otherwise. "Let's take FGA away from our most productive players and give them to less efficient players!" No. Jerry West is getting 23 FGA whether it's 1969 or 2009.

3. Jordan couldn't average 45 ppg unless he is taking well over 30 shots a game, something which hasn't been done since Wilt did in 1963. I'm not saying he couldn't do it (he came awfully close during the 37 ppg season) but he'd get kinda tired you'd think.

4. The 1998-2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and the 2008 Celtics are some of the greatest defensive teams of all time (less than 100 Drtg, sometimes by a lot).

Any opinion you have on basketball "eras" must not contradict the first two facts. Or you better have suitable hand waves available.

Personally I enjoyed the older defensive rules which allowed more bumping and grinding on the perimeter. I enjoy watching old games and I enjoyed the Olympics when Kobe, Wade, and so on were both bodied up by foreign teams and were allowed themselves to display their defensive skills at full. I think the NBA would be better if they allowed more physicality on the perimeter. To believe any of this affects whether Jordan-Drexler-Kobe-Wade are dominating any league they're in is crazy.

[Fatal9]

1. Leaguewide Ortg/Drtg (they must be identical, 'natch) and TS% have remained fairly consistent since 1980 except for some highly volatile action from the lock out 1999 season until 2004 or 2005 or so. Current levels since then are back to normal and you can draw a line between now and any normal year in the 90s or 80s.

2. Team or league pace has zero influence on high usage number one options such as Jordan, Kobe, West, Bird, Dr. J, Shaq, etc. FGA do though. They WILL get their 18-25 FGA whether the pace is 105, 95, or (god forbid this ever happens) 85. Faced with less global FGA, their teams would be idiotic otherwise. "Let's take FGA away from our most productive players and give them to less efficient players!" No. Jerry West is getting 23 FGA whether it's 1969 or 2009.

3. Jordan couldn't average 45 ppg unless he is taking well over 30 shots a game, something which hasn't been done since Wilt did in 1963. I'm not saying he couldn't do it (he came awfully close during the 37 ppg season) but he'd get kinda tired you'd think.

4. The 1998-2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and the 2008 Celtics are some of the greatest defensive teams of all time (less than 100 Drtg, sometimes by a lot).

Any opinion you have on basketball "eras" must not contradict the first two facts. Or you better have suitable hand waves available.

Personally I enjoyed the older defensive rules which allowed more bumping and grinding on the perimeter. I enjoy watching old games and I enjoyed the Olympics when Kobe, Wade, and so on were both bodied up by foreign teams and were allowed themselves to display their defensive skills at full. I think the NBA would be better if they allowed more physicality on the perimeter. To believe any of this affects whether Jordan-Drexler-Kobe-Wade are dominating any league they're in is crazy.
:cheers:

[bruceblitz]

He does the exact same thing you do. You both are overly aggressive and insulting when trying to get your point across. You both don't listen to a word anyone says. You both use quotes, articles and self made youtube videos to "prove" points. I am a Jordan fan, I think Jordan is GOAT and I also think your posts make people HATE Jordan. You aren't helping Jordan's case. You aren't making people respect him or swaying their opinion into thinking he is GOAT. You are making people who love Kobe love Kobe and hate Jordan even more. People like you cause such huge rifts between athletes when there shouldn't be one. It should be easily possible to love Jordan AND Bryant but you easily help ruin that

All people like you and KB42PAH do is piss everyone off and make us hate the player you are vouching for. If you really love Jordan the way you say you do. Stop coming on message boards and posting 30 times a day attacking people. Make some youtube videos of Jordan that aren't meant to discredit other players and leave it at that. Fans like you whether its music, sports, movies etc are bad. I feel sorry for anyone that has fans like you

OK, so 3 years ago when I saw fans out there trying to discredit Michael Jordan, I should have just sat on my hands and not created youtube video sections like the ones you see on these channels?

http://www.youtube.com/mustseebbtv
http://www.youtube.com/bruceblitzconfession
http://www.youtube.com/theAIRJORDANblitz

Everyone from hoopsencyclopedia himself, to some of the quietest Jordan fans keep in contact with me. They appreciate what I do. They feel it needs to be done. I don't think you have been following what I do long enough. You don't see the multitudes of requests to defend Jordan because of something someone said. Do I appease them all? No. I just do whatever I feel like doing in the end. When someone uses selective editing to make a "Zone" defense, that features nothing but man to man with rotation help defense, and they go on to discredit Jordan's era saying he had free walks to the basket and faced isolation, seems that I was the only one to step up to the plate and defend him immediately. I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, you aren't giving me proper credit for the actual facts I present, and you need to stop being so judgemental of my opinions. I also suspect that you notice I respond to you, and you respond to me, because I am a hell of a lot more realistic person than Alborz aka kb42pah. He's out of his ever-loving mind. Literally.

Someone makes a video like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc

I responded with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE



The excuse making continued after the 2008 Finals with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQaVvf2VOsc

So I responded with these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc



A lot of the information you see me present is a RESPONSE. Keep that in mind why don't you?!!?! It's a response to blatant stupidity, excuse making, and slanting of the facts when the bottom line remains the same:

http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_current_stars.htm

Also they forget players on this link:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_nba_stars.htm

[juju151111]

OK, so 3 years ago when I saw fans out there trying to discredit Michael Jordan, I should have just sat on my hands and not created youtube video sections like the ones you see on these channels?

http://www.youtube.com/mustseebbtv
http://www.youtube.com/bruceblitzconfession
http://www.youtube.com/theAIRJORDANblitz

Everyone from hoopsencyclopedia himself, to some of the quietest Jordan fans keep in contact with me. They appreciate what I do. They feel it needs to be done. I don't think you have been following what I do long enough. You don't see the multitudes of requests to defend Jordan because of something someone said. Do I appease them all? No. I just do whatever I feel like doing in the end. When someone uses selective editing to make a "Zone" defense, that features nothing but man to man with rotation help defense, and they go on to discredit Jordan's era saying he had free walks to the basket and faced isolation, seems that I was the only one to step up to the plate and defend him immediately. I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, you aren't giving me proper credit for the actual facts I present, and you need to stop being so judgemental of my opinions. I also suspect that you notice I respond to you, and you respond to me, because I am a hell of a lot more realistic person than Alborz aka kb42pah. He's out of his ever-loving mind. Literally.

Someone makes a video like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc

I responded with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE



The excuse making continued after the 2008 Finals with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQaVvf2VOsc

So I responded with these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc



A lot of the information you see me present is a RESPONSE. Keep that in mind why don't you?!!?! It's a response to blatant stupidity, excuse making, and slanting of the facts when the bottom line remains the same:

http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_current_stars.htm

Also they forget players on this link:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_nba_stars.htm
:applause:

[madmax]

the most moronic statement i ever heard about today's players is that they are so awful fundamentally, thus the fg% and scoring is way down nowadays...that's complete nonsense - basketball like every other sports activity is evolving and players are getting better all the time, for a simple reason that they have time to master their game from the past greats. Therefore all the comparing of players from different eras with different rules is misleading and pointless...:confusedshrug: Every single player is a product of it's own era and not otherwise, it would be nice to construct a time machine and transport Wilt from the 60's into today's arenas just to see how he fares against our generation, but that's not possible...he was the greatest from his days, Jordan was the best 20 years ago. One thing is for sure - great players find ways to be great under any kind of rules

[bruceblitz]

the most moronic statement i ever heard about today's players is that they are so awful fundamentally, thus the fg% and scoring is way down nowadays...that's complete nonsense - basketball like every other sports activity is evolving and players are getting better all the time, for a simple reason that they have time to master their game from the past greats. Therefore all the comparing of players from different eras with different rules is misleading and pointless...:confusedshrug: Every single player is a product of it's own era and not otherwise, it would be nice to construct a time machine and transport Wilt from the 60's into today's arenas just to see how he fares against our generation, but that's not possible...he was the greatest from his days, Jordan was the best 20 years ago. One thing is for sure - great players find ways to be great under any kind of rules

Jordan was the best 20 years ago now? He was on the Bulls in 1998, this is 2009. Just sayin man, what the hell, 20 years ago?

When people say players today don't have the same fundamentals of the old school players, they mean shot selection, scoring within the flow of an offense, putting effort into defense every game, and things of that nature. You see more street-ball style skills in today's game, but less team oriented fundamentals. That's what they mean.

By the way, so you think sports automatically get better? Wrong there too. Ratings have never been as high as they were when Jordan was on top of the NBA so the silent majority disagrees with you. You also fail to take into account sports like Boxing that was much more exciting when Ali was on top, Mike Tyson or even the Sugar Ray Leonard/Hagler/Hearns era.

What you are deriving your opinions on is a misconception.

Look at football, in the NFL they don't allow contact on the wideout after 5 yards now, it allows for more passing in the game of football. Back in the day players like Johnny Unitas faced defenses that were allowed to smash wideouts at any time on any play.

You fail to take into account the margin of difficulty when facing physical defenses or playing in a finesse game. Sports today have become more finesse. That's a fact. Thankfully the UFC is still here.

[plowking]

Jordan would score the same this era, or even a little less if he played now.

Zone forces players to shoot more jumpshots, and stats prove this. (if anyone can find that thread where George Gervin said he could score more then 40 points this era, as this is where I provided the stats).

Jordan would have to shoot more jumpshots, especially threes, which he was not very good at for the first part of his career. Thus his scoring would most likely decrease for the first portion of his career.

Due to this, his FG% would most likely decrease as well to around 46-51% each season.

[bruceblitz]

NFL changes in the way the game is played:
Back in the day facemasking was legal, it was a takedown technique, there was no pass interference, there was no "horsecollar" rule, chop blocking wasn't called, etc. It was a more physical game. Just go watch a Dick Butkus or Walter Payton highlight reel if you don't believe me.

Boxing:
When Ali was champ they wore 8 ounce gloves, very little padding, now they wear 14-16 ounce gloves with more padding, the pace of the fights is nothing like the furious pace of Ali vs Frazier or Ali vs Foreman, for instance.

NBA:
Players were more team oriented in the Jordan era and back further, handchecking was allowed, physical play was coached, you paid the price for going to the rim, there was more of a violent attitude displayed by the players, there was no defensive 3 second rule or enforcing of a defensive 3 second rule so bigs would camp out in the paint and it was harder to get to the basket.

I can go on and on and on about this. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Just watch this video for a little better understanding about the difference in the NBA today compared to even the Jordan era, which wasn't that long ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA

Wilt Chamberlain was mauled. Mauling was a legal defensive tactic when Wilt played. A lot of people don't know that the last shot Wilt hit in the 100 point game was a 21 foot fadeaway over a double team. Wilt Chamberlain had a fadeaway.

[stephanieg]

the most moronic statement i ever heard about today's players is that they are so awful fundamentally, thus the fg% and scoring is way down nowadays...

Scoring is down because pace is down. Simple relationship. Scoring has increased as pace has increased in the past 3-4 years.

FG% is down slightly but TS% is the same due to increased numbers of three pointers (year by year since 1980 3P% and 3PA has increased and continues to do so). You can't look at FG% of players who takes a lot of three pointers -- nor leagues.

It also doesn't help there's not 4-5 dominant centers like there used to be.


...Jordan was the best 20 years ago...

Hey, 1998 wasn't all that long ago.

[juju151111]

Jordan would score the same this era, or even a little less if he played now.

Zone forces players to shoot more jumpshots, and stats prove this. (if anyone can find that thread where George Gervin said he could score more then 40 points this era, as this is where I provided the stats).

Jordan would have to shoot more jumpshots, especially threes, which he was not very good at for the first part of his career. Thus his scoring would most likely decrease for the first portion of his career.

Due to this, his FG% would most likely decrease as well to around 46-51% each season.
Stick to defending Wade because thats the only time you make sense.

[bruceblitz]

Jordan would score the same this era, or even a little less if he played now.

Zone forces players to shoot more jumpshots, and stats prove this. (if anyone can find that thread where George Gervin said he could score more then 40 points this era, as this is where I provided the stats).

Jordan would have to shoot more jumpshots, especially threes, which he was not very good at for the first part of his career. Thus his scoring would most likely decrease for the first portion of his career.

Due to this, his FG% would most likely decrease as well to around 46-51% each season.

Uh, are you really that dumb? Or do you just not watch the games? Teams run man to man 95% of the time in the NBA today. I can't believe you people. Do you even watch the games or know what to look for?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA
Yes, Jordan would struggle against that. lmfao!

I suggest you watch and read what Clyde Drexler said in this video too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aejHEkZpemA

[OldSchoolBBall]

Incidentally, they year Jordan averaged 37+ points a game, the average NBA team gave up 109.9 points a game. The tempo of the game was much faster. In contrast, the average current NBA team has significantly slowed down the tempo of the game to the point where the average team only gives up 99.6 points a game... a little more than 10 fewer points scored per game, per team. My guess is that you're saying defense has deteriorated to such an extent that Jordan could average nearly 8 more points a game more inspite of the fact that the game has slowed down so considerably...

Team scoring and pace has nothing to do with individual scoring. Stars get their opportunities. Period. Chicago was always one of the slowest teams in the league anyhow. That's why Jordan was able to average 32.5 ppg in 1989 on a 97.0 pace factor team and 32.6 ppg in 1993 on a 92.5 pace factor team.

Jordan averaged 30.4 ppg/50% FG in 1996 at age 33 in a league where team averages (ppg/FG%) were roughly the same as they are today. Age 33. But keep trying to act like you have a point. :oldlol:

[andgar923]

If I may......

There are many reasons as to why individual scoring is up, shooting percentages are down and why team's total points scored has decreased throughout the years.

I'ma keep it brief:

!. Players coming into the league at a younger age, which equals = unprepared

2. League change in rules throughout the decade that help perimeter scoring

3. Shot selection... players today fall in love with the 3 to easily. MJ even talked about why he didn't like to take the 3 as much. It becomes addictive

4. No real centers anymore

5. Too much one on one

6. Not enough team play on defense and offense

7. Today's players are worth much more money, so the league is far less physical in order to protect their investments

8. Teams don't stay together, so there's no growth for players or teams

9. Sounds like a cliche, but players due to no fault of their own, see the game more as a business than ever. And YES that has some effect on the court.

10. Not sure if I really have a ten, but what's a list without ten reasons right? Oh yeah..... players are ***** today.

And everything I mentioned above is related and it forms what we call the NBA today.

Most created by the league for legit reasons, but unfortunately many purists don't really like the changes.

That's it for now.

[andgar923]

Team scoring and pace has nothing to do with individual scoring. Stars get their opportunities. Period. Chicago was always one of the slowest teams in the league anyhow. That's why Jordan was able to average 32.5 ppg in 1989 on a 97.0 pace factor team and 32.6 ppg in 1993 on a 92.5 pace factor team.

Jordan averaged 30.4 ppg/50% FG in 1996 at age 33 in a league where team averages (ppg/FG%) were roughly the same as they are today. Age 33. But keep trying to act like you have a point. :oldlol:

I don't understand why some keep saying, MJ was a product of a faster paced era.

Sure he averaged 27 shots one season, but so did Kobe!

We see players today taking 30 shots with ease often. Hell... KObe took 30 in like 35 minutes I believe. And he did so effortlessly, so how related is it to the fast pace?

LIke somebody else mentioned, there was more ball movement, so the notion that MJ had more possessions is misleading. Wade, Bron and Kobe have the same amount of possessions than MJ did.

Also, not to play captain save a Bruce, but he's right.

The vids that he, myself and others make, are made as a RESPONSE to the misinformation and defamation of not just MJ but past eras.

If we seem overzealous with our vids or our presentation, too bad. But one cannot criticize THE FACTS presented.

And I agree, anybody can edit videos to prove a point, but we (for the vast majority of the time) don't do that. We give it to ya'll like pure coke (raw and uncut).

The lies that are spread online must be corrected. YES they MUST be corrected, because if you care about the sport, you won't let it get hijacked by a few morons. They corrupt and influence not just future generations, but they even influence so called modern "sportswriters." They are literally re-writing history to fit their agenda and tens of thousands are believing them.

And I'm not gonna sugar coat a damn thing.

Its mainly (estimate 97% of them for sure) KOBE STANS.

Again if I may..... I differentiate between Kobe "fans" and Kobe "stans" and STANS are the worst type of so called fans there is.

[plowking]

Stick to defending Wade because thats the only time you make sense.

Learn something about basketball.

The OP and yourself are ridiculously dense if you believe Jordan would be scoring 40 points per game this era.

There is hardly any chance. He would be a 30-37ppg scorer in his prime just like he was in his era. His numbers wouldn't change that much apart from slightly worse shooting.

[bruceblitz]

Learn something about basketball.

The OP and yourself are ridiculously dense if you believe Jordan would be scoring 40 points per game this era.

There is hardly any chance. He would be a 30-37ppg scorer in his prime just like he was in his era. His numbers wouldn't change that much apart from slightly worse shooting.

That's absolutely ridiculous
I mean absolutely ridiculous and UNFOUNDEDLY RETARDED!

Jordan averaged 41 points per game in the NBA finals, averaged over 40 points per game for half of an entire season, averaged over 40 points per game in the playoffs for an entire playoff run. You have got to be out of your everloving mind to think his shooting % would be lower today when the man averaged over 55% shooting percentage on half a season and ended up at 54%. Jordan was in the top 10 in the NBA for field goal percentage in his prime, INCLUDING THE BIGS.

See, unlike your opinion, mine MATTERS because I grew up watching Jordan and I remember in his prime it seemed like he would make 2 out of every 3 shots. He destroyed teams with the mid-range jumper coming off screens. Rip Hamilton destroys teams with the mid-range jumper coming off screens.

LeBron James is shooting nearly 50% with a much less effective jumper than MJ had.

I'll say that again, LeBron James is shooting nearly 50% with a MUCH LESS EFFECTIVE JUMPER THAN MJ HAD.

WHY IN THE HELL DO PEOPLE POST OPINIONS WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT? :wtf:

[andgar923]

That's absolutely ridiculous
I mean absolutely ridiculous and UNFOUNDEDLY RETARDED!

Jordan averaged 41 points per game in the NBA finals, averaged over 40 points per game for half of an entire season, averaged over 40 points per game in the playoffs for an entire playoff run. You have got to be out of your everloving mind to think his shooting % would be lower today when the man averaged over 55% shooting percentage on half a season and ended up at 54%. Jordan was in the top 10 in the NBA for field goal percentage in his prime, INCLUDING THE BIGS.

See, unlike your opinion, mine MATTERS because I grew up watching Jordan and I remember in his prime it seemed like he would make 2 out of every 3 shots. He destroyed teams with the mid-range jumper coming off screens. Rip Hamilton destroys teams with the mid-range jumper coming off screens.

LeBron James is shooting nearly 50% with a much less effective jumper than MJ had.

I'll say that again, LeBron James is shooting nearly 50% with a MUCH LESS EFFECTIVE JUMPER THAN MJ HAD.

WHY IN THE HELL DO PEOPLE POST OPINIONS WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT? :wtf:

And just to piggy back of this post.....

Wade shoots above 45% (don't feel like looking up his stats) and he only plays from ONE SIDE OF THE FLOOR.

Wade plays almost exclusively on the left side and even then he's limited.

[easydoesit]

Jordan was an absolutely great player and has a very strong case for GOAT, but i agree with fatal9 and stephanie that his myth has reached absurd standards as has the myth of the current era's inferior defense. Every sport improves, the players simply get better. Basketball is no exeption. Would Jordan be the best player in the game today? Probably, but he would not be head and shoulders above the rest and he would not be putting up better stats than he was in the 80s and 90s.

[andgar923]

Jordan was an absolutely great player and has a very strong case for GOAT, but i agree with fatal9 and stephanie that his myth has reached absurd standards as has the myth of the current era's inferior defense. Every sport improves, the players simply get better. Basketball is no exeption. Would Jordan be the best player in the game today? Probably, but he would not be head and shoulders above the rest and he would not be putting up better stats than he was in the 80s and 90s.

Cool

But you do know that at the age of 40 he was putting up stats equaled or better than some of today's so called "superstars" which were 15 years younger than him, right?

And I would usually agree with you, in regards that everything has to naturally evolve (improve). But sadly, that isn't the case in the NBA.

Yes I agree, some aspects have improved, but unfortunately many aspects have actually "deteriorated."

For the reasons I've stated in this and the other Bruce thread.

Its an entire system wide and philosophy downward spiral that has taken place over the last dozen seasons or so.

Rule changes, younger players, no real sense of team worth, etc.etc.

So while the avg player has evolved into stronger, faster, bigger and better athletes (even that's somewhat debatable), other aspects have fallen.

I guess its the world self correcting itself trying to keep things balanced. The ying and the yang, the positive and the negative, the ren to the stimpy, the Balki to Larry, you get the hint.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Due to this, his FG% would most likely decrease as well to around 46-51% each season.

LMAO @ this. :oldlol: Jordan was a far better scorer than James or Wade, who are shooting like 48-50%, and who have averaged ~30 ppg on 48% in the past. LOL @ thinking Jordan shoots 46% in this era. Maybe if he averages like 37.5 ppg. But at 31-33.5 ppg he's going to be at 49.5-51.5% shooting.

What would Lebron be shooting if he shot even 40% on his 2-point jumpers? Something like 52%, I'd wager (I may even do the math later; you can work this out from 82games.com numbers). Jordan shot a lot better than 40% on his midrange jumpers while being an equally good penetrator and finisher. He's shooting 51% today without a problem. Don't kid yourself.

[Undisputed]

:oldlol: Always makes me laugh how some people have truely forgotten how good Michael Jordan actually was.

[amfirst]

Cool

But you do know that at the age of 40 he was putting up stats equaled or better than some of today's so called "superstars" which were 15 years younger than him, right?

And I would usually agree with you, in regards that everything has to naturally evolve (improve). But sadly, that isn't the case in the NBA.

Yes I agree, some aspects have improved, but unfortunately many aspects have actually "deteriorated."

For the reasons I've stated in this and the other Bruce thread.

Its an entire system wide and philosophy downward spiral that has taken place over the last dozen seasons or so.

Rule changes, younger players, no real sense of team worth, etc.etc.

So while the avg player has evolved into stronger, faster, bigger and better athletes (even that's somewhat debatable), other aspects have fallen.

I guess its the world self correcting itself trying to keep things balanced. The ying and the yang, the positive and the negative, the ren to the stimpy, the Balki to Larry, you get the hint.

He may score a lot at forty, but it doesn't mean jack if u can't win. Anyone can score with more shots, but can the score when it matters, like winning?

[Showtime]

3 second defensive rule, in combination with the defensive restricted zone in the paint, means that the post defender is extremely limited. If his man spreads out, he has to follow in 3 seconds. This opens up the paint for the perimeter player looking to penetrate, because he doesn't always have to worry about the paint defender. Even when he can rotate back in time, if he doesn't establish perfect position (aka feet set, and outside the restricted line), then it's an AUTOMATIC call for the offensive player.

Sure, the implementation of the zone can disrupt some offense for a short time, but it can be beaten. The way the paint players are restricted, as well as the softer contact being called, means the perimeter players have an easier time putting up points, either from scoring or getting to the FT line.

For these reasons, MJ would DESTROY the league today. He would play the Wade role, by constantly attacking the rim and getting to the line, or if he was forced to be a jumpshooter like Kobe was in the finals last year, he would pick apart teams because of his more consistent jumpshot (especially off the dribble on pull ups and creating using his back to the basket).

[bruceblitz]

3 second defensive rule, in combination with the defensive restricted zone in the paint, means that the post defender is extremely limited. If his man spreads out, he has to follow in 3 seconds. This opens up the paint for the perimeter player looking to penetrate, because he doesn't always have to worry about the paint defender. Even when he can rotate back in time, if he doesn't establish perfect position (aka feet set, and outside the restricted line), then it's an AUTOMATIC call for the offensive player.

Sure, the implementation of the zone can disrupt some offense for a short time, but it can be beaten. The way the paint players are restricted, as well as the softer contact being called, means the perimeter players have an easier time putting up points, either from scoring or getting to the FT line.

For these reasons, MJ would DESTROY the league today. He would play the Wade role, by constantly attacking the rim and getting to the line, or if he was forced to be a jumpshooter like Kobe was in the finals last year, he would pick apart teams because of his more consistent jumpshot (especially off the dribble on pull ups and creating using his back to the basket).

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=amfirst]He may score a lot at forty, but it doesn't mean jack if u can't win. Anyone can score with more shots, but can the score when it matters, like winning?

[QUOTE][B][COLOR="Red"]Jordan was only one of two players to average more than 25 points, 5 assists, and 5 rebounds as he led the Wizards to a 26

[BirdOverrated]

2005-present: zone, handchecking not allowed, but selectively enforced
2001-2004: Handchecking+Zone defense
90s : Isolation

http://images2.sina.com/english/sports/2009/0114/U138P200T1D211730F8DT20090114193007.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r87/kvartuc/Celtics.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aIF7WH8op0Rf/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02bubhGdxKd3H/340x.jpg
http://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2008/05/18/P20-080518-34.jpg
http://nbcsportsmedia1.msnbc.com/j/apmegasports/200806122326843902921-pf.widec.jpg
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6836/kobereversedunk.jpg
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-01/08/xin_00201060816581712411813.jpg

[Showtime]

^ haha how many times is Albroz going to have his argument debunked?

Myth 1: Zone + Handcheck

Debunk: Zone wasn't widely used when first allowed. At the time, many coaches didn't implement it, some didn't coach it well or like to use it, and players weren't accustomed to using it. The teams that DID use it didn't use it as their primary defense, and like a press defense, it was used sparingly in short durations to disrupt an offense. Saying a player played in the "zone era" when man to man is still the most popular and widely used defense means this myth is total BS.

Myth 2: Zone > M2M

Debunk: Zone defense is different, not superior to man. Zone has players guard areas of the court, and an effective zone can limit penetration by cutting off the lanes. This can be countered, however, by ball movement and player positioning. If it's a sloppy zone, then it's even easier. Zone isn't perfect, and can be exploited with ball movement, player positioning, and outside shooting.

[reppy]

Nate Robinson would have dominated Jordan. On both ends. And in dunk contests.

[bruceblitz]

duh
uh, I'm stupid.
I like to discredit anything not named Kobe


Jordan vs "Isolation"
http://cdn.newsone.blackplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/michael_jordan1.jpg
http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebsm/michaeljordan/michael_jordan_1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/NBA_Superstars2002/images/Michael_Jordan52.jpg
http://www.iconsportsmedia.com/image_dir/album25954/md_9590108%20%20Michael%20Jordan%20Bulls.jpg
http://www.michael-jordan-23.com/uploads/pics/michael-jordan-reverse-layup.jpg
http://www.mm52.com/occidentalidols/michael_jordan/michael_jordan_069.jpg
http://www.customauthenticjerseys.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/michael-jordan.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0705/gallery.nba.playoff.comebacks/images/1993.bulls.jordan.jpg
http://www.prweb.com/prfiles/2008/12/30/174044/MichaelJordanSI1984.jpg
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/Willser94/fadeaway45jersey.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqgIT3hLInY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkuQQxh-pc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

[bruceblitz]

^ haha how many times is Albroz going to have his argument debunked?



Forgive Alborz, he's a homosexual who likes to be dominated.
:D

[Gingereffic]

[QUOTE=bruceblitz]The death of defense?
by Roland Lazenby / October 20, 2006

[andgar923]

2005-present: zone, handchecking not allowed, but selectively enforced
2001-2004: Handchecking+Zone defense
90s : Isolation

http://images2.sina.com/english/sports/2009/0114/U138P200T1D211730F8DT20090114193007.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r87/kvartuc/Celtics.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aIF7WH8op0Rf/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02bubhGdxKd3H/340x.jpg
http://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2008/05/18/P20-080518-34.jpg
http://nbcsportsmedia1.msnbc.com/j/apmegasports/200806122326843902921-pf.widec.jpg
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6836/kobereversedunk.jpg

This is what MJ would've done to those defenders:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh133/andgar923/el_coxxx_2.gif?t=1235283227

[BirdOverrated]

This is what MJ would've done to those defenders:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh133/andgar923/el_coxxx_2.gif?t=1235283227


And this is what Kobe would do those weak 90s defenders:

http://myspace-183.vo.llnwd.net/01431/38/17/1431477183_l.gif

[bruceblitz]

duh
uh, I'm stupid.
I like to discredit anything not named Kobe


Jordan vs "Isolation"
http://cdn.newsone.blackplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/michael_jordan1.jpg
http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebsm/michaeljordan/michael_jordan_1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/NBA_Superstars2002/images/Michael_Jordan52.jpg
http://www.iconsportsmedia.com/image_dir/album25954/md_9590108%20%20Michael%20Jordan%20Bulls.jpg
http://www.michael-jordan-23.com/uploads/pics/michael-jordan-reverse-layup.jpg
http://www.mm52.com/occidentalidols/michael_jordan/michael_jordan_069.jpg
http://www.customauthenticjerseys.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/michael-jordan.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0705/gallery.nba.playoff.comebacks/images/1993.bulls.jordan.jpg
http://www.prweb.com/prfiles/2008/12/30/174044/MichaelJordanSI1984.jpg
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/Willser94/fadeaway45jersey.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqgIT3hLInY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkuQQxh-pc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

[Fatal9]

SMH at people who use handpicked pics and youtube videos to make their argument on the defenses. You actually aren't serious right?

Anyways, look no further than the stats. Defensive rating which is a fairly accurate measure of how good a teams defense is (almost always the best defensive team has the best D rating, eg. Celtics, Spurs, Pistons in the last decade) shows defenses have been better from 2000 onward.

[andgar923]

SMH at people who use handpicked pics and youtube videos to make their argument on the defenses. You actually aren't serious right?

Anyways, look no further than the stats. Defensive rating which is a fairly accurate measure of how good a teams defense is (almost always the best defensive team has the best D rating, eg. Celtics, Spurs, Pistons in the last decade) shows defenses have been better from 2000 onward.

You must've missed my post addressing this.

Those stats are highly misleading.

[BirdOverrated]

SMH at people who use handpicked pics and youtube videos to make their argument on the defenses. You actually aren't serious right?

Anyways, look no further than the stats. Defensive rating which is a fairly accurate measure of how good a teams defense is (almost always the best defensive team has the best D rating, eg. Celtics, Spurs, Pistons in the last decade) shows defenses have been better from 2000 onward.


Exactly. 2003 Spurs, 2004 Pistons, 2008 Celtics - among the cream of the crop.

[DonDadda59]

Is BirdOverrated really Alborz? I thought his posts had a familiar ring to them. Sad that his Kb42pah persona was so badly ripped apart and discredited that he had to change monickers. I think people empower him by answering his recycled (and debunked many times over) b.s.

But I just wanted to address his claim of 'greatest defensive era' that ended in '04. First of all, as many have stated, no teams have ever used zone D for more than a handful of possessions except the Mavs from earlier this decade, and to disastrous effect. But more importantly, handchecking as players of Jordan's era was all but dead by '01. From NBA.com (rule change history):

'97-'98

[DonDadda59]

Can't wait to see what b.s. excuse Alborz has for me...

[andgar923]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL @ any simpleton who believes that defensive stats (average team ppg/FG%) in the '99-'04 era or until the present are SOLELY due to better defense. :oldlol: You can really tell who the dullards are by seeing who believes that.

[DonDadda59]

LOL @ any simpleton who believes that defensive stats (average team ppg/FG%) in the '99-'04 era or until the present are SOLELY due to better defense. :oldlol: You can really tell who the dullards are by seeing who believes that.

Yeah, especially since team PPG were across the board much lower than they are/were in the '00s.

[Jacks3]

SMH at people who use handpicked pics and youtube videos to make their argument on the defenses. You actually aren't serious right?

Anyways, look no further than the stats. Defensive rating which is a fairly accurate measure of how good a teams defense is (almost always the best defensive team has the best D rating, eg. Celtics, Spurs, Pistons in the last decade) shows defenses have been better from 2000 onward.
QFT

[juju151111]

^ haha how many times is Albroz going to have his argument debunked?

Myth 1: Zone + Handcheck

Debunk: Zone wasn't widely used when first allowed. At the time, many coaches didn't implement it, some didn't coach it well or like to use it, and players weren't accustomed to using it. The teams that DID use it didn't use it as their primary defense, and like a press defense, it was used sparingly in short durations to disrupt an offense. Saying a player played in the "zone era" when man to man is still the most popular and widely used defense means this myth is total BS.

Myth 2: Zone > M2M

Debunk: Zone defense is different, not superior to man. Zone has players guard areas of the court, and an effective zone can limit penetration by cutting off the lanes. This can be countered, however, by ball movement and player positioning. If it's a sloppy zone, then it's even easier. Zone isn't perfect, and can be exploited with ball movement, player positioning, and outside shooting.
wait a second thats pah?? This explains a lot.

[DonDadda59]

Alborz is going to love this. Turns out, as I said before, Kobe's piss poor performance in the '04 Finals facilitated the death knell for physical play on the perimeter:

About his legendary performance (From ESPN article 'Ranking the 10 worst Finals Performances, John Hollinger June 12, 2008)


Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
"With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games."



During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Alborz is going to love this. Turns out, as I said before, Kobe's piss poor performance in the '04 Finals facilitated the death knell for physical play on the perimeter:

About his legendary performance (From ESPN article 'Ranking the 10 worst Finals Performances, John Hollinger June 12, 2008)


Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
"With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games."



During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It

[kentatm]

anyone who thinks the defense of today is just as good or better than what Jordan had to deal with clearly has zero idea what they are talking about and are too damn young to have seen and understood the game then.

anyone who thinks MJ wouldnt have a field day with the way the rules are called now is flat out ignorant of the game and the changes it has gone through.

[DonDadda59]

anyone who thinks the defense of today is just as good or better than what Jordan had to deal with clearly has zero idea what they are talking about and are too damn young to have seen and understood the game then.

anyone who thinks MJ wouldnt have a field day with the way the rules are called now is flat out ignorant of the game and the changes it has gone through.

That's why certain people are tasked wth educating the misinformed/ignorant youth.

[Laker4Lyfe]

Man how many threads is this guy gonna make on the same subject??? :confusedshrug::confusedshrug:

WE GET IT!!!! JORDAN FACED TOUGHER DEFENSE THAN KOBE!!! HOW MANY FRIGGIN THREADS ARE YOU GONNA MAKE ABOUT IT? :banghead::banghead:

[Toizumi]

I've watched some mid 90's bulls games lately and everybody who thinks that defense wasn't more physical back then is wrong. period.

[Gingereffic]

[QUOTE=andgar923]The season before he got there.........

29

[DonDadda59]

Man how many threads is this guy gonna make on the same subject??? :confusedshrug::confusedshrug:

WE GET IT!!!! JORDAN FACED TOUGHER DEFENSE THAN KOBE!!! HOW MANY FRIGGIN THREADS ARE YOU GONNA MAKE ABOUT IT? :banghead::banghead:

7 sounds like a good number. As many as it takes to shut up the blind homers the world over.

[andgar923]

The year before MJ played for the Wiz the Wiz only won 18 games.. OKKKKK

!9


19-63, Finished 7th in NBA Atlantic Division (Game Results)
NBA Season Summary

Scored 93.2 points per game, Allowed 99.9 points per game (Pythagorean W-L: 23-59)
Coached by Leonard Hamilton (19-63)


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2001.html

[bruceblitz]

NEW!!! Michael Jordan vs 1987-89 Atlanta Hawks defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k

Michael Jordan vs Real Defenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

Michael Jordan vs 96 Seattle Supersonics defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc

Michael Jordan vs 87-88 Jazz defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4

Michael Jordan vs 95-97 Washington Bullets defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXhG7yBQ98

Michael Jordan vs 1990-93 San Antonio Spurs defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8

[TheCommish]

Impressive list of names. But has MJ ever faced the "DPOY" LBJ, in a game. According to PleeeezeBelieve, LBJ is the clear DPOY and kobe hit a raiiiiinbow over his a$$. Since LBJ>>>>>all the names you just listed according to PB, and Kobe hit a raiiinbow over his a$$, therefore Kobe>>>MJ. :confusedshrug:

btw God Shammgod>>>>all