The true 100% legit top 10 NBA players of all time!

[bruceblitz]

MICHAEL JORDAN
6 finals MVP's, 5 league MVP's, 10 scoring titles (6 while shooting over 50%), steals title, Defensive player of the year award, highest PPG in NBA history for the regular season (30.12) and playoffs (33.45). Averaged 31.5ppg and 51.5% shooting as a Chicago Bull against fierce defenses. Michael topped out at 37ppg in 1986-87, his best all around season looked like this: 32.5ppg - 8reb - 8ast - 2.9stl - .8blk on an amazing 54% shooting in 1988-89, Jordan had 5 seasons over 32 points per game. Jordan averaged 33.45ppg, 6.4reb, 5.7ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs for his career. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor. In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, a record which has never been threatened. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards.


KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR
6 MVP awards, won championships with both Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson, member of 6 championship teams, 2 Finals MVP's, 2 time scoring champ, 19 time all-star, all time NBA leading scorer for total points, 34.8ppg career high in the 71-72 season (also averaged 4.6 assists and 16.6 rebounds that year), averaged 5 assists per game or more for 3 seasons, averaged 16 rebounds or more for 4 seasons, made 56% of his shots for his career, the sky hook was UNSTOPPABLE! Kareem averaged 32ppg, 17reb, 4ast, on 50% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

WILT CHAMBERLAIN
7'1" 275lbs of pure beast, had a season averaging 24.3ppg, 23.8reb, 8.6ast in 1967-68, averaged over 20 rebounds per game for 11 seasons of his career, peaked out at 27.2 rebounds per game in 1960-61 while scoring 38.4ppg, averaged 50.4ppg on 50.6% shooting in the 1961-62 season, averaged 30.10 for his career on 54% shooting, made 72.7 of his shots in his final season in the NBA, his skill-set was amazing, featuring a fadeaway that was unstoppable along with his power moves in the post. The NBA did not record steals and blocks in that era. Wilt also won 7 scoring titles. Wilt averaged 35ppg, 25reb, 3ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

MAGIC JOHNSON
6'9" 255lbs or pure all around greatness, won 3 finals MVP's, 5 time NBA champ, 3 time NBA MVP, Averaged 18.6ppg 9.5ast 9.6reb per game in 1981-82(closest to Oscar Robertson's season of averaging a triple double, topped out at 23.9ppg, Magic was not a pure scorer but he was a great team basketball player, Magic Johnson averaged 3.4stl per game in 1980-81, Magic's season high for assists per game was 13.1ast per in 1983-84, Magic made 52% of his shots for his career, finishing with 19.5ppg 11.2ast and 7.2reb per game for his career. Magic averaged 19.5ppg, 7.7reb, 12.3ast on 50.6% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

LARRY BIRD
Larry Bird was the second greatest clutch player in NBA history next to Michael Jordan, 6'9" 220lbs of pure heart, what Larry lacked in athleticism he made up for it with pure hustle and determination, one of the most unorthodoxed scorers of all time Larry showed us all what it meant to grind out wins, Larry was able to up-stage some of the most athletic players in NBA history like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Dominique Wilkins and many many more. Many would argue that 1986-87 was Larry's best season, Larry averaged 28.1ppg 9.2reb and 7.6ast per game in 1986-87, Larry shot an amazing 37.6% from 3 point land for his career, made 49.6% of his shots, and Larry finished with 24.3ppg 10.0reb 6.3ast 1.7stl and .8blk per game for his entire career which is a staggering collection of team basketball production. Larry also won 2 finals MVP's, and 3 league MVP's. Larry averaged 23.8ppg, 10.3reb, 6.5ast on 47.2% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

BILL RUSSELL
Bill Russell was the greatest hustle player in NBA history, Bill Russell's scoring left a little to be desired and he wasn't a pure scorer, Bill Russell was a defensive legend and most likely the greatest defensive presence in NBA history. He was the "Wilt stopper". The NBA didn't provide steals and blocks stats back in Bill's career or his dominance on the defensive end of the court would show up in his production. Bill Russell averaged over 20 rebounds per game 10 times in his career, Bill Russell was a great passer out of double teams and he averaged over 5 assists per game twice in his career. Bill Russell was a 5 time league MVP, and a staggering 11 time NBA champion as the anchor of the legendary Celtics of the late 50's and 60's. Bill Russell finished with 15.1ppg 22.5reb 4.3ast on 44% shooting for his career. Russell averaged 20ppg, 26reb, 47%fg and 4ast per game in his prime during the playoffs.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON
Hakeem was arguably the most skilled center of all time in NBA history. His post moves, his ability to handle the rock and his athleticism are unmatched to this point by other NBA centers from any era. Hakeem racked up honor after honor in his NBA career. Hakeem was the NBA Finals MVP 2 times, Hakeem was the League MVP once, he would have had more MVP's but he was over-shadowed by the great Michael Air Jordan. Hakeem was the only player in NBA history to win an NBA League MVP, Defensive player of the year and NBA finals MVP in the same year. Hakeem peaked out just shy of 28 points per game, his peak rebound production was 14 rebounds per game and he had 6 years over 3 assists per game, and 9 years over 3 blocks per game peaking out at 4.6 blocks per game in the 1989-90 season. Hakeem had 5 years over 2 steals per game as well, and he ended his career as a 51.2% shooter, 3.1blk, 1.7stl, 11.1reb, 21.8ppg. Hakeem raised his level of play in the playoffs and he ended his playoff career as a 52.8% shooter, with 11.2reb, 3.2ast 25.9ppg in the playoffs.


OSCAR ROBERTSON
Oscar Robertson is quite honestly the greatest all around player the game has seen. In Oscar Robertson's second year in the NBA he averaged 30.8ppg, 12.reb, 11.4ast, as he averaged a triple double for an entire season, not even the great Larry Bird or Magic Johnson could do that.Oscar won a league MVP in 1964 on 47.8% shooting. Oscar had a silky smooth jumper/fadeaway and his post game is revered as the best in the history of the sport, this side of Michael Jordan. Oscar Robertson had 4 seasons at or over 11 assists per game. Oscar also had 3 seasons over 10 rebounds per game. Oscar closed out his career averaging 25.7ppg, 9.5ast, 7.5reb, and he was a 48.5% shooter for his career. Oscar Robertson didn't play on the greatest teams so his playoff numbers are a little skewed, A lot of his playoff numbers were amassed at the end of his career. In his prime Oscar averaged nearly 30 points per game on 47% shooting with nearly 9 rebounds and 10 assists per game in the playoffs during his prime.

SHAQ O'NEAL
The most dominant center in NBA Finals history was Shaq O'Neal as a Laker. Shaq O'Neal has been the most physically imposing center in the history of the game this side of Wilt Chamberlain. By his second year in the league Shaq was averaging over 29 points per game and he peaked out at 29.7ppg. Shaq has 5 years over 3 assists per game and has 13 years over 10 rebounds per game, Shaq also has been a great shot blocker having 12 years over 2 blocks per game. Shaq so far in his career has averaged 24.9ppg, 11.3reb, 2.6ast, 2.4blk on an amazing 58.1% shooting. He's not a pure shooter but his ability to dominate in the post helped create high % shot attempts for Shaq. Shaq always rose his level of play in the playoffs when he was a Laker, Shaq averaged over 15 rebounds twice in the playoffs, and over 30 points per game 3 times in the playoffs, the decline at the end of Shaq's career have skewed his playoff production a bit giving him 25.2ppg, 12.1reb, and 2.8ast on 50.1% shooting in the playoffs for his career. Shaq's production in the NBA Finals as a Laker looked like this: vs Indiana Pacers 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG, vs Philadelphia Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG, vs New Jersey Nets Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG, vs Detroit 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG. Shaq also has 3 finals MVP and a league MVP in his trophy case.

TIM DUNCAN
Tim Duncan is known for his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. In a similar fashion to Kevin McHale from the 80's, Duncan has been able to dominate teams with his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. He's not physically imposing and he's not a great athlete but his ability to be a great thinker and executor of his fundamentals is what sets him apart from most NBA players in the history of the game. Tim Duncan's career numbers are staggering averaging 21.5ppg, 11.8reb, 3.2ast, 2.4blk on 50.8% shooting. Duncan peaked out at 25.5ppg, he has 5 seasons over 12reb per, and 10 seasons over 2blk per. Tim Duncan raises hes level of play in the playoffs averaging 23.4ppg, 12.7, 3.5ast on 50.1% shooting for his career in the playoffs so far. Duncan has 3 Finals MVP's and 2 league MVP's in his trophy case.

[OneMoreSucka]

Did you write this?

[Godfather]

Excellent list.

[big baller]

Shaq wat too low, Hakeem>Russell

[bruceblitz]

Did you write this?
Yes, and you are welcome.

[Sanity]

Thats a pretty good list. Some are debatable but that won't happen because.......Well I think we all know whats coming.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

excellent. another all time top-10 thread.
1.Mark Madsen
2.Greg Kite
everyone else is a distant 3rd.

[Godfather]

excellent. another all time top-10 thread.
1.Mark Madsen
2.Greg Kite
everyone else is a distant 3rd.

Don't troll because you can.

[1987_Lakers]

Replace Oscar Robertson with Jerry West and that would be a perfect top 10.

West was a better defender, shooter, team leader, & better in the clutch than Oscar Robertson.

[Scott Pippen]

I may put Wilt ahead of Kareem (or tied) but otherwise good list.

[gts]

you were a little short on kareems acomplishments

Kareem.
HOF Induction 1995

UCLA 1967, 1968, 1969 NCAA Division 1 Championships

1966-67 NCAA AP Player of the Year
1968-69 NCAA AP Player of the Year
1968-69 NCAA Naismith Men's College Player of the Year Award
1966-67 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1967-68 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1968-69 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1966-67 USBWA College Player of the Year aka Oscar Robertson Trophy
1967-68 USBWA College Player of the Year aka Oscar Robertson Trophy

College Stats and Averages *
Pt's 2,325 26.4 ppg
Rbds. 1,367 15.5 rpg

*no assists/blks/stls kept

6 NBA Championship Titles 1971,1980, 82, 85, 87. 88
10 Finals Appearences
237 Playoff games

1969-70 NBA Rookie of the Year
1970-71 NBA Finals MVP
1970-71 NBA MVP
1971-72 NBA MVP
1973-74 NBA MVP
1975-76 NBA MVP
1976-77 NBA MVP
1979-80 NBA MVP
1984-85 NBA Finals MVP

1969-70 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1973-74 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1973-74 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1974-75 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1975-76 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1976-77 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1978-79 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1983-84 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1985-86 NBA All-NBA (1st)

1969-70 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1969-70 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1970-71 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1975-76 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1976-77 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1977-78 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1977-78 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1978-79 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1982-83 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1983-84 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1984-85 NBA All-NBA (2nd)


All-Star Games
1970 NBA
1971 NBA
1972 NBA
1973 NBA
1974 NBA
1975 NBA
1976 NBA
1977 NBA
1979 NBA
1980 NBA
1981 NBA
1982 NBA
1983 NBA
1984 NBA
1985 NBA
1986 NBA
1987 NBA
1988 NBA
1989 NBA
Missed 1978 due to injury elected but DNP

20 NBA Seasons 1560 Games Total
1969-70 NBA 82
1970-71 NBA 82
1975-76 NBA 82
1976-77 NBA 82
1979-80 NBA 82
1973-74 NBA 81
1971-72 NBA 81
1978-79 NBA 80
1980-81 NBA 80
1983-84 NBA 80
1987-88 NBA 80
1982-83 NBA 79
1984-85 NBA 79
1985-86 NBA 79
1986-87 NBA 78
1972-73 NBA 76
1981-82 NBA 76
1988-89 NBA 74
1974-75 NBA 65
1977-78 NBA 62

NBA Records
Most points - 38,387
Most minutes played 57,446
Most field goals made 15,837
Most field goals attempted 28,307
Most All-Star selections 19
Most All-Star games played 18
Most Personal Fouls 4657


Career Stat Line Totals and Averages
Pt's 38,387
Rebounds 17,440
Assists 5,660
Steals 1,160
Blocks 3,189

Averages
Pts 24.6 on 56%
Rbs.11.2
Asst. 3.6
Blks. 2.6
Stls. .9

Playoff Averages (237 games)
Pts. 24.3 on 53%
Rbs. 10.5
Asst. 3.2
Blks. 2.1
Stls. .8

[OneMoreSucka]

Yes, and you are welcome.
No thanks.

[inclinerator]

who is shaq o neil

[mrpuente]

Is that in order?

[inclinerator]

who is shaq o neal

[west]

never tried to see Shaq's finals numbers....just too crazy:bowdown:

[inclinerator]

you might wanna correct that where shaq average 15 assist and stuff

[Gingereffic]

MICHAEL JORDAN
6 finals MVP's, 5 league MVP's, 10 scoring titles (6 while shooting over 50%), steals title, Defensive player of the year award, highest PPG in NBA history for the regular season (30.12) and playoffs (33.45). Averaged 31.5ppg and 51.5% shooting as a Chicago Bull against fierce defenses. Michael topped out at 37ppg in 1986-87, his best all around season looked like this: 32.5ppg - 8reb - 8ast - 2.9stl - .8blk on an amazing 54% shooting in 1988-89, Jordan had 5 seasons over 32 points per game. Jordan averaged 33.45ppg, 6.4reb, 5.7ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs for his career. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor. In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, a record which has never been threatened. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards.


KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR
6 MVP awards, won championships with both Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson, member of 6 championship teams, 2 Finals MVP's, 2 time scoring champ, 19 time all-star, all time NBA leading scorer for total points, 34.8ppg career high in the 71-72 season (also averaged 4.6 assists and 16.6 rebounds that year), averaged 5 assists per game or more for 3 seasons, averaged 16 rebounds or more for 4 seasons, made 56% of his shots for his career, the sky hook was UNSTOPPABLE! Kareem averaged 32ppg, 17reb, 4ast, on 50% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

WILT CHAMBERLAIN
7'1" 275lbs of pure beast, had a season averaging 24.3ppg, 23.8reb, 8.6ast in 1967-68, averaged over 20 rebounds per game for 11 seasons of his career, peaked out at 27.2 rebounds per game in 1960-61 while scoring 38.4ppg, averaged 50.4ppg on 50.6% shooting in the 1961-62 season, averaged 30.10 for his career on 54% shooting, made 72.7 of his shots in his final season in the NBA, his skill-set was amazing, featuring a fadeaway that was unstoppable along with his power moves in the post. he NBA did not record steals and blocks in that era. Wilt also won 7 scoring titles. Wilt averaged 35ppg, 25reb, 3ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

MAGIC JOHNSON
6'9" 255lbs or pure all around greatness, won 3 finals MVP's, 5 time NBA champ, 3 time NBA MVP, Averaged 18.6ppg 9.5ast 9.6reb per game in 1981-82(closest to Oscar Robertson's season of averaging a triple double, topped out at 23.9ppg, Magic was not a pure scorer but he was a great team basketball player, Magic Johnson averaged 3.4stl per game in 1980-81, Magic's season high for assists per game was 13.1ast per in 1983-84, Magic made 52% of his shots for his career, finishing with 19.5ppg 11.2ast and 7.2reb perf game for his career. Magic averaged 19.5ppg, 7.7reb, 12.3ast on 50.6% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

LARRY BIRD
Larry Bird was the second greatest clutch player in NBA history next to Michael Jordan, 6'9" 220lbs of pure heart, what Larry lacked in athleticism he made up for it with pure hustle and determination, one of the most unorthodoxed scorers of all time Larry showed us all what it meant to grind out wins, Larry was able to up-stage some of the most athletic players in NBA history like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Dominique Wilkins and many many more. Many would argue that 1986-87 was Larry's best season, Larry averaged 28.1ppg 9.2reb and 7.6ast per game in 1986-87, Larry shot an amazing 37.6% from 3 point land for his career, made 49.6% of his shots, and Larry finished with 24.3ppg 10.0reb 6.3ast 1.7stl and .8blk per game for his entire career which is a staggering collection of team basketball production. Larry also won 2 finals MVP's, and 3 league MVP's. Larry averaged 23.8ppg, 10.3reb, 6.5ast on 47.2% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

BILL RUSSELL
Bill Russell was the greatest hustle player in NBA history, Bill Russell's scoring left a little to be desired and he wasn't a pure scorer, Bill Russell was a defensive legend and most likely the greatest defensive presence in NBA history. He was the "Wilt stopper". The NBA didn't provide steals and blocks stats back in Bill's career or his dominance on the defensive end of the court would show up in his production. Bill Russell averaged over 20 rebounds per game 10 times in his career, Bill Russell was a great passer out of double teams and he averaged over 5 assists per game twice in his career. Bill Russell was a 5 time league MVP, and a staggering 11 time NBA champion as the anchor of the legendary Celtics of the late 50's and 60's. Bill Russell finished with 15.1ppg 22.5reb 4.3ast on 44% shooting for his career. Russell averaged 20ppg, 26reb, 47%fg and 4ast per game in his prime during the playoffs.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON
Hakeem was arguably the most skilled center of all time in NBA history. His post moves, his ability to handle the rock and his athleticism are unmatched to this point by other NBA centers from any era. Hakeem racked up honor after honor in his NBA career. Hakeem was the NBA Finals MVP 2 times, Hakeem was the League MVP twice, he would have had more MVP's but he was over-shadowed by the great Michael Air Jordan. Hakeem was the only player in NBA history to win an NBA League MVP, Defensive player of the year and NBA finals MVP in the same year. Hakeem peaked out just shy of 28 points per game, his peak rebound production was 14 rebounds per game and he had 6 years over 3 assists per game, and 9 years over 3 blocks per game peaking out at 4.6 blocks per game in the 1989-90 season. Hakeem had 5 years over 2 steals per game as well, and he ended his career as a 51.2% shooter, 3.1blk, 1.7stl, 11.1reb, 21.8ppg. Hakeem raised his level of play in the playoffs and he ended his playoff career as a 52.8% shooter, with 11.2reb, 3.2ast 25.9ppg in the playoffs.


OSCAR ROBERTSON
Oscar Robertson is quite honestly the greatest all around player the game has seen. In Oscar Robertson's second year in the NBA he averaged 30.8ppg, 12.reb, 11.4ast, as he averaged a triple double for an entire season, not even the great Larry Bird or Magic Johnson could do that.Oscar won a league MVP in 1964 on 47.8% shooting. Oscar had a silky smooth jumper/fadeaway and his post game is revered as the best in the history of the sport, this side of Michael Jordan. Oscar Robertson had 4 seasons at or over 11 assists per game. Oscar also had 3 seasons over 10 rebounds per game. Oscar closed out his career averaging 25.7ppg, 9.5ast, 7.5reb, and he was a 48.5% shooter for his career. Oscar Robertson didn't play on the greatest teams so his playoff numbers are a little skewed, A lot of his playoff numbers were amassed at the end of his career. In his prime Oscar averaged nearly 30 points per game on 47% shooting with nearly 9 rebounds and 10 assists per game in the playoffs during his prime.

SHAQ O'NEAL
The most dominant center in NBA Finals history was Shaq O'Neal as a Laker. Shaq O'Neal has been the most physically imposing center in the history of the game this side of Wilt Chamberlain. By his second year in the league Shaq was averaging over 29 points per game and he peaked out at 29.7ppg. Shaq has 5 years over 3 assists per game and has 13 years over 10 assists per game, Shaq also has been a great shot blocker having 12 years over 2 blocks per game. Shaq so far in his career has averaged 24.9ppg, 11.3reb, 2.6ast, 2.4blk on an amazing 58.1% shooting. He's not a pure shooter but his ability to dominate in the post helped create high % shot attempts for Shaq. Shaq always rose his level of play in the playoffs when he was a Laker, Shaq averaed over 15 assists twice in the playoffs, and over 30 points per game 3 times in the playoffs, the decline at the end of Shaq's career have skewed his playoff production a bit giving him 25.2ppg, 12.1reb, and 2.8ast on 50.1% shooting in the playoffs for his career. Shaq's production in the NBA Finals as a Laker looked like this: vs Indiana Pacers 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG, vs Philadelphia Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG, vs New Jersey Nets Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG, vs Detroit 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG. Shaq also has 3 finals MVP and a league MVP in his trophy case.

TIM DUNCAN
Tim Duncan is known for his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. In a similar fashion to Kevin McHale from the 80's, Duncan has been able to dominate teams with his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. He's not physically imposing and he's not a great athlete but his ability to be a great thinker and executor of his fundamentals is what sets him apart from most NBA players in the history of the game. Tim Duncan's career numbers are staggering averaging 21.5ppg, 11.8reb, 3.2ast, 2.4blk on 50.8% shooting. Duncan peaked out at 25.5ppg, he has 5 seasons over 12reb per, and 10 seasons over 2blk per. Tim Duncan raises hes level of play in the playoffs averaging 23.4ppg, 12.7, 3.5ast on 50.1% shooting for his career in the playoffs so far. Duncan has 3 Finals MVP's and 2 league MVP's in his trophy case.




I would get rid of Duncan and include :hammertime: .. Just kidding, Duncan has the best resume but I would take a prime Drob or Ewing over him. Duncan unlike Ewing or Drob had a center of DRBOB's ability to play with. Of course Drob was not the same player anymore... Both Ewing and Drob played with alot less talent than Duncan has played with and had to go against Hakeem and MJ.... Duncan really has had it easy. He only had Shaq to go against and usually lost AGAINST him... Also I remember Shaq usually shutting down Duncan in late game playoffs.. ..Having said all this I would put MOSES in this spot.. I know I rambled about other players but I take MOSES...

[inclinerator]

this shaq o neal sounds pretty good having over 13 years of 10 assist or more and damn even average 15 twice in the playoffs
those numbers are even better than prime shaquille o neal

[BirdOverrated]

These should be the 10 , not in order:

Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'neal
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdull Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Lebron James

[Jordandunk23]

imo no on oscar robertson

[artest 93]

These should be the 10 , not in order:

Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'neal
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdull Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Lebron James

Ouch! No white people :D

[BirdOverrated]

Ouch! No white people :D

There are alot of great white players - Dirk Nowitski, Steve Nash, Manu Ginobili. Unfortunately, those other 10 players just happen to be the best.

But anyone that has Bill Russell in their top 10, and Larry Bird in their top 5 clearly is not qualified to make judgments about the game.

[BirdOverrated]

Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and Shaq should be on everyones top 10. The amount of disrespect those 4 guys get when it comes to all time rankings is unbelievable.

[ruslan]

These should be the 10 , not in order:

Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'neal
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdull Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Lebron James


Do this

http://www.ukimagehost.com/uploads/0c0a16c168.gif

[JustinJDW]

Pretty neat list. I would have put Shaq above Hakeem and Oscar, but everything else is pretty good. Nice list. :cheers:

[Sir Charles]

Top 10 EFF and Top 10 PER (Play-Offs Included)

1-Michael Jordan
2-Wilt Chamberlain
3-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4-Hakeem Olajuwon
5-Shaq (this year is his last year so he deserves his position here)
6-Larry Bird
7-Julius Erving
8-Magic Johnson
9-Charles Barkley
10-Karl Malone

Tim Duncan will so surpass Karl Malone but he needs to improove his EFF not everything sorrounds what he can do through his own impact he needs to do things that go beyond the CF position.

Tim Duncan is by far the smartest player in the league in the last decade or so.

[BirdOverrated]

Top 10 EFF and Top 10 PER (Play-Offs Included)

1-Michael Jordan
2-Wilt Chamberlain
3-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4-Hakeem Olajuwon
5-Shaq (this year is his last year so he deserves his position here)
6-Larry Bird
7-Julius Erving
8-Magic Johnson
9-Charles Barkley
10-Karl Malone

Tim Duncan will so surpass Karl Malone but he needs to improove his EFF not everything sorrounds what he can do through his own impact he needs to do things that go beyond the CF position.

Tim Duncan is by far the smartest player in the league in the last decade or so.


Tim duncan is smart , yet he can't make FTs???

[Sir Charles]

There are alot of great white players - Dirk Nowitski, Steve Nash, Manu Ginobili. Unfortunately, those other 10 players just happen to be the best.

But anyone that has Bill Russell in their top 10, and Larry Bird in their top 5 clearly is not qualified to make judgments about the game.

Bill Russell did not have that much of an Offensive Impact but if you talk about Defense and Rebound`s he was in the Top 1-2. Anyhow you keep underrating Larry Bird but check out Bird`s efficiency:
http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

*Strange that All of These Top 10 have Been Called the Best Player in the League at One Point or Another....

11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 Shaquille O'neal 27.59 16
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18
14 Kevin Garnett 27.13 13
15 Jerry West 27.10 14
16 David Robinson 26.98 14
17 Karl Malone 26.94 19
18 Tim Duncan 26.59 11
19 LeBron James 26.44 5
20 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14
21 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
22 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
23 Bob Lanier 25.29 14
24 Bob McAdoo 24.47 14
25 Elton Brand 24.37 9
26 Dirk Nowitzki 24.25 10
27 Moses Malone 24.14 19
28 Willis Reed 24.06 10
29 Elvin Hayes 24.04 16
30 Rick Barry 23.98 10
31 Nate Thurmond 23.73 14
32 Chris Webber 23.72 15
33 Wes Unseld 23.70 13
34 Shawn Marion 23.52 9
35 Chris Paul 23.51 3
36 Billy Cunningham 23.51 9
37 Patrick Ewing 23.41 17
38 Julius Erving 23.35 11
39 Neil Johnston 23.23 8
40 Brad Daugherty 23.10 8
41 Artis Gilmore 22.99 12
42 Dwyane Wade 22.95 5
43 Amare Stoudemire 22.85 6
44 Walt Frazier 22.74 13
45 Gus Johnson 22.63 9
46 Adrian Dantley 22.60 15
47 Kobe Bryant 22.42 12
48 Clyde Drexler 22.42 15
49 Dwight Howard 22.26 4
50 Larry Nance 22.14 13
51 Bill Walton 22.13 10
52 Dolph Schayes 22.10 15
53 George Gervin 22.07 10
54 Dan Issel 21.91 9
55 Pau Gasol 21.91 7
56 Yao Ming 21.90 6
57 Jeff Ruland 21.71 8
58 George Mikan 21.58 7
59 Allen Iverson 21.56 12
60 Kevin Johnson 21.56 12
61 Clark Kellogg 21.55 5
62 Bailey Howell 21.53 12
63 Carlos Boozer 21.49 6
64 Paul Pierce 21.45 10
65 Marques Johnson 21.44 11
66 Chris Bosh 21.41 5
67 Dominique Wilkins 21.26 15
68 Paul Arizin 21.26 10
69 Connie Hawkins 21.25 7
70 Vince Carter 21.16 10
71 Tracy McGrady 21.10 11
72 Grant Hill 21.09 13
73 Pete Maravich 20.98 10
74 Jason Kidd 20.95 14
75 Spencer Haywood 20.84 12
76 Jack Sikma 20.83 14
77 John Stockton 20.80 19
78 John Havlicek 20.68 16
79 Kevin McHale 20.44 13
80 Alex English 20.40 15
81 George McGinnis 20.26 7
82 Isiah Thomas 20.22 13
83 Elmore Smith 20.20 8
84 Carmelo Anthony 20.16 5
85 Dave Debusschere 20.14 12
86 Bob Dandridge 20.03 13
87 Lamar Odom 19.94 9
88 Zelmo Beaty 19.92 8
89 Gilbert Arenas 19.91 7
90 Rudy Tomjanovich 19.77 11
91 Alonzo Mourning 19.77 15
92 Sidney Wicks 19.76 10
93 Bill Bridges 19.73 13
94 Happy Hairston 19.65 11
95 Dan Roundfield 19.60 11
96 Bernard King 19.60 14
97 Alex Groza 19.53 2
98 Scottie Pippen 19.50 17
99 Dave Bing 19.33 12
100 Nate Archibald 19.24 13

[mrpuente]

Well my order would look like this.

Jordan
Lew alcindor
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq Diesel
Oscar whats his face

[Sir Charles]

Tim duncan is smart , yet he can't make FTs???

And? that has nothing to do with his role in the game. He is the player with most fundamentals and b-ball IQ in the last 10 years. Knows when too shoot, when not too, knows when to hold the ball in the paint and take the game over, his defensive timing and interior is brilliant, good passer, good rebounder etc...

[BirdOverrated]

And? that has nothing to do with his role in the game. He is the player with most fundamentals and b-ball IQ in the last 10 years. Knows when too shoot, when not too, knows when to hold the ball in the paint and take the game over, his defensive timing and interior is brilliant, good passer, good rebounder etc...

How can a player be fundamentally sound without shooting 80% FT?:violin:

[mrpuente]

How can a player be fundamentally sound without shooting 80% FT?:violin:
yet you have SHaq over Duncan?

[Sir Charles]

How can a player be fundamentally sound without shooting 80% FT?:violin:

His Shooting Touch is not the Best...do to talent...but what about his Floor Game?, Interior Defensive Timing?, Correct Positioning? Rebounding Skills? Post Scoring?, Passing? Duncan is the Only Big Man Right Now Capable of:

Scoring Effciently
Rebounding Efficiently
Passing Efficiently
Interior Defending Efficiently

Yes his game is boring as hell but thats another thing...he is by far the ideal CF of this time only second to Hakeem of All-Time

[Sir Charles]

yet you have SHaq over Duncan?

Shaq`s Offensive Impact...goes beyond limits even though Duncan and Hakeem "make others better more". In the same way Bird has a superior capacity to "make others better" than Jordan`s but Jordan`s Total (Offense and Defense especially) Impact as a Player goes beyond that.

[DonDadda59]

How can a player be fundamentally sound without shooting 80% FT?:violin:

How is Kobe Bryant the best player ever but his career FGP is 45%, doesn't have a single season at or over 50%?

[mrpuente]

Shaq's offensive impact was bouncing muuuphuckkas off his belly until he got to the rim. He was blessed with that ability.

[BirdOverrated]

How is Kobe Bryant the best player ever but his career FGP is 45%, doesn't have a single season at or over 50%?


he doesnt care about FG%, its like the game is too easy for him so he has to make it more enjoyable for himself by taking 1 or 2 really tough shots a game.

[Sir Charles]

Shaq's offensive impact was bouncing muuuphuckkas off his belly until he got to the rim. He was blessed with that ability.

A 300-360 lbs 7`1 player that can handle the ball, go coast to coast, catch alley oops, spin and break backboards has to have merit.

56-58 Career FG with 25 PPG is just insane....

Shaq = Greatest Offensive Center Ever...

[DonDadda59]

he doesnt care about FG%, its like the game is too easy for him so he has to make it more enjoyable for himself by taking 1 or 2 really tough shots a game.

So he was having fun during the Finals last June? Didn't look like he was enjoying himself very much :oldlol:

His career has been quite enjoyable for him then...

[VCMVP1551]

No way Oscar should be ahead of Shaq. The rest are debatable.

My top 10 right now is.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3.Magic Johnson
4.Shaquille O'Neal
5.Wilt Chamberlain
6.Bill Russell
7.Larry Bird
8.Hakeem Olajuwon
9.Tim Duncan
10.Jerry West(Yes I rank him above Oscar)

[shawbryant]

Where is the honorable mentioned list?

[chains5000]

he doesnt care about FG%, its like the game is too easy for him so he has to make it more enjoyable for himself by taking 1 or 2 really tough shots a game.
:roll:
What a retard


Kobe's soooooo unselfish, he lets other players and teams beat him.:oldlol:

[Rolando]

he doesnt care about FG%, its like the game is too easy for him so he has to make it more enjoyable for himself by taking 1 or 2 really tough shots a game.

Keep going....this is getting better and better

[Lebron23]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Bill Russell
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10.Jerry West or Oscar Robertson

[oh the horror]

How can a player be fundamentally sound without shooting 80% FT?:violin:



Dude, just stop posting. Youve contradicted yourself MULTIPLE times over the past few threads, and that leads me to believe youre either being a pain in the ass on purpose, OR, you have ABSOLUTELY no idea wtf youre talking about. Ever.

By your logic, a player isnt smart, or one of the best because they dont have a high free throw percentage? Are you kidding?

[bruceblitz]

I fixed a couple of typos I had in the original post I made on this thread. I typed it in a hurry.

knowledge of the history of the game = priceless

I hope everyone takes time to take into consideration the significance of the information I presented in this post.

[bruceblitz]

Dude, just stop posting. Youve contradicted yourself MULTIPLE times over the past few threads, and that leads me to believe youre either being a pain in the ass on purpose, OR, you have ABSOLUTELY no idea wtf youre talking about. Ever.

By your logic, a player isnt smart, or one of the best because they dont have a high free throw percentage? Are you kidding?

According to that logic Hornacek is the most fundamenally sound player of all time? :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, he talked about ft% yet he puts Shaq in his top 3?
:wtf:

Facts = Kobe 0 finals MVP's, 1 league MVP, 2 scoring titles(Iverson has 4, Wilt had 7, Jordan 10), career averages are a hair better than Vince Carter's, playoff production drops compared to regular season production. These are the types of things that people look at when a career is over. If it was about the most "skilled" players of all time Iverson, Jordan and Hakeem would be on top.

People just need to understand that Alborz is a Kobe Bryant stalker, he has very little knowledge of the history of the game, and he tries to discredit the legends in a weak, and I mean weak, attempt to prop Kobe's status up beyond the level it deserves to be. According to his own formulas Dirk and Nash are better players than Kobe if you really think about it. Glen Rice's best year he was the best player in the NBA that year according to his own formulas. The guy is in love with Kobe folks. He also ruined this thread. Someone like him shouldn't be allowed to comment in a thread like this. Someone who thinks Jerry West, Bird, Magic, and Jordan are all overrated. What a psycho!

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Hakeem > Oscar Robertson.

Fix up.

[TmacsRockets]

These should be the 10 , not in order:

Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'neal
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdull Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Lebron James

Kobe nor Lebron belong anywhere near that list "Ko8e" or "KB42PAH"

[kwajo]

How can a player be fundamentally sound without shooting 80% FT?:violin:
He did shoot 80% from the line, back in the 2001-2002 season. :rolleyes:

[Thorpesaurous]

Very well written. My sequence is a bit different, but the players are all the same, except I'd replace Oscar with Malone (the good one). He's really underrated. Achievement wise, I have a hard time seperating him from the Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan group.

[BirdOverrated]

It still boggles my mind when I read people's top 10 all time, and I see names like:

Jerry West (Lost in finals 8 times, weak , slow , garbage)
Bird (Would not be a top 5 player today, slow, defensive cancer)
Russell (6''9, 220 lb undersized mutumbo, one-dimensional defensive player)

Joe Johnson>Jerry West
Lebron James> Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett>Bill Russell

then people decide not to include:

Shaq: Most dominant Center all time
Kobe: Most dominant perimeter player of all time (2nd at worse if you feel Jordan is better)
Garnett: The perfect basketball player. Most versatile player all time, has it all.

Like I always said , Jordan, Shaq and Kobe are top 3 all time. Reality.

[BirdOverrated]

According to that logic Hornacek is the most fundamenally sound player of all time? :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, he talked about ft% yet he puts Shaq in his top 3?
:wtf:

Facts = Kobe 0 finals MVP's, 1 league MVP, 2 scoring titles(Iverson has 4, Wilt had 7, Jordan 10), career averages are a hair better than Vince Carter's, playoff production drops compared to regular season production. These are the types of things that people look at when a career is over. If it was about the most "skilled" players of all time Iverson, Jordan and Hakeem would be on top.

People just need to understand that Alborz is a Kobe Bryant stalker, he has very little knowledge of the history of the game, and he tries to discredit the legends in a weak, and I mean weak, attempt to prop Kobe's status up beyond the level it deserves to be. According to his own formulas Dirk and Nash are better players than Kobe if you really think about it. Glen Rice's best year he was the best player in the NBA that year according to his own formulas. The guy is in love with Kobe folks. He also ruined this thread. Someone like him shouldn't be allowed to comment in a thread like this. Someone who thinks Jerry West, Bird, Magic, and Jordan are all overrated. What a psycho!

LOL at Jordan's 10 scoring titles, shows how weak and pathetic the era was.

Drexler: Done in 93

Who else was their to compete with for scoring title on perimeter????

Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Latrell Sprewell??? LOL

[omarnyc]

shaq,hakeem>>>>>>>russell

[sic]

Kobe: Most dominant perimeter player of all time (2nd at worse if you feel Jordan is better)


AAHAHAHAHAHAHHA :roll:

[bruceblitz]

Insane nutcase of a fan here for your amusement. I've never heard of David Robinson, Dominque Wilkins, Shaq, Alex English, Adrian Dantley, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Larry Bird, Patrick Ewing, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Tom Chambers, Chris Mullin and I really really want to kiss Kobe! Michael Jordan's legacy is too great for me to comprehend, I know Bruce Blitz's top 10 list destroys mine so I am crying! :cry:
http://blog.innogage.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/clues-for-clueless.jpg

[omarnyc]

how can anybody think about putting kevin garnett on a all-time top 10 list, he's one of the most overrated players in history. also charles barkley>>>tim duncan

[step_back]

Do this

http://www.ukimagehost.com/uploads/0c0a16c168.gif

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[bruceblitz]

:roll: :roll:
It still boggles my mind when I try to think
I lost touch with reality a long time ago.

Jerry West (Took his team to the finals 9 times, strong , quick , clutch)
Bird (Would be a top 3 player today, great at running the floor, great passer, great rebounder, great scorer, second greatest clutch player of all time, underrated on defense)
Russell (6''10", 220 lbs *as a rookie* greatest interior defender of all time, was able to lock up Wilt Chamberlain a 7'1" 275lb beast, greatest ever on the offensive boards and put-backs, was the anchor of a Celtics team that won 11 championships)

Joe Johnson>Jerry West :roll: :roll: :roll:

Lebron James> Larry Bird long way to go before you can say this.

Kevin Garnett>Bill Russell :roll: :roll: :roll:

then people decide not to include:

Shaq: Most dominant Center all time, other than Wilt and not as skilled as Hakeem.
Kobe: Most overrated perimeter player of all time, Wade and LeBron will both have better legacies than Kobe. (2nd most overrated if you feel anyone else has been compared to Jordan as much as Kobe has: see this link: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122838 . Kobe = only 2 scoring titles, 1 mvp, 0 finals mvps, 0 seasons over 6 assists 0 seasons over 48% fg% )
Garnett: Career choke artist, didn't play amazing even in the Celtics playoff run, still a great player but no where near Malone, Barkley, hell, I would have a hard time ranking him over Artis Gilmore.

Like I always said , Jordan and Shaq are top 10 players of all time.

[juju151111]

LOL at Jordan's 10 scoring titles, shows how weak and pathetic the era was.

Drexler: Done in 93

Who else was their to compete with for scoring title on perimeter????

Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Latrell Sprewell??? LOL
He would of still had 7 scoring titles which is still more then any perimeter player.Also Mj had to compete with a prime shaq and Malone in his late years for scoring titles.

[guy]

LOL at Jordan's 10 scoring titles, shows how weak and pathetic the era was.

Drexler: Done in 93

Who else was their to compete with for scoring title on perimeter????

Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Latrell Sprewell??? LOL

I didn't know only perimeter players were eligible to win scoring titles.

[HisJoeness]

Nice list BB. Question for everyone. How does everyone feel about Moses Malone? I think he's a Top 10 player all-time or no worst in the Top-15. He has a very underrated resume. 3 time MVP, 12 time All-Star (11 NBA), 3rd All-time total rebounds, Averaged 20/12 in his career etc, etc.

[danumber88]

Does anyone know the term "overrated?" No one spots an obvious troll? Someone who has Kobe Bryant at #1 and Lebron James as #10 is an obvious troll. :oldlol: Place him in your ignore list.

The list is good, but for some reason finding Shaq at #9 is iffy to me.

[bruceblitz]

Nice list BB. Question for everyone. How does everyone feel about Moses Malone? I think he's a Top 10 player all-time or no worst in the Top-15. He has a very underrated resume. 3 time MVP, 12 time All-Star (11 NBA), 3rd All-time total rebounds, Averaged 20/12 in his career etc, etc.
For me, Moses Malone was one of the greatest big men of all time. Top 20 player of all time hands down, if not lock for top 15. I think when you take a hard look at the logic of "today's fan" they would probably take an Artis Gilmore over Moses Malone even though us savants know the real deal.

[bruceblitz]

Michael Jordan vs physical intense defenses MUST SEE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

Michael Jordan vs 1987-89 Atlanta Hawks defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V...

Michael Jordan vs Real Defenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSM...

Michael Jordan vs 96 Seattle Supersonics defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5s...

Michael Jordan vs 87-88 Jazz defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zW...

Michael Jordan vs 95-97 Washington Bullets defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXhG7...

Michael Jordan vs 1990-93 San Antonio Spurs defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-Bza...

Jordan rules
There weren't flagrant fouls in Jordan's era. Teams would just knock Jordan to the floor, and the referee's only option was to call a regular foul.

Handchecking
The NBA got rid of handchecking, this was to allow for easier driving to the basket and it free's up the ball handler. In Michael's era, they would double team him as soon as his shoulder dropped and he tried taking it to the hoop. It was legal to stop Jordan with your hands, not just your feet and position. Handchecking helped out less athletic defenders, who could make up for being half a step slow, by using their hands to hold the ball-handler at 'bay'.

Bigs waiting in the paint
In Michael's era, bigs had a right to 'airspace'. Now the rules are as such that bigs can't jump to block a dunk or layup because if they make contact, it's a foul. There was no 3 second rule so teams would clog the lane to take away MJ's 'above the rim attack'. In Jordan's day you could jump from inside of the circle, or wherever you wanted, and as long as you jumped straight up, and not into the ball-handler, it was not a foul. Much more physical brand of basketball was played in Michael Jordan's era.

Also now they allow ball-handlers to carry the basketball. As well as players like Kobe Bryant get more touch fouls now on the perimeter than any single player in the history of the sport. It is a changed game.

My favorite performances were when Jordan averaged over 41ppg vs the Phoenix Suns who had great players on their roster, top to bottom. He had one game of 55 points in that series. My other favorite performance was when Jordan put on a Magic Johnson type performance in the 1991 NBA Finals, Jordan averaged over 30 points per game, on over 55% shooting, but the amazing part was that Jordan averaged 11.4 assists per game in that series. Jordan also won a defensive player of the year award, among plenty of other accolades and unreachable records....

Michael Jordan's most important pieces to his legacy are his 14 mvps(3 all star, 6 finals, 5 league), the fact that he is the only guard in NBA history to LEAD his team to multi-championships with the absence of a dominant big man. Add in Jordan's 10 scoring titles, 30+ 6+ 6+ for his career in the NBA finals, greatest career ppg average in the regular season and playoffs, he surpassed Wilt as the greatest scorer ever over a cumulative amount of time with consistent dominance.

Jordan's importance to the game cannot be put into words, his epic legacy he left on the game will never be paralleled or surpassed.

Even the most hyped up players of today's game (Kobe Bryant) pale in comparison to the greatest of all time, if you don't believe me, go here:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_current_stars.htm

[Yung D-Will]

:bowdown: Hakeem The Dream

[jamal99]

It still boggles my mind when I read people's top 10 all time, and I see names like:

Jerry West (Lost in finals 8 times, weak , slow , garbage)
Bird (Would not be a top 5 player today, slow, defensive cancer)
Russell (6''9, 220 lb undersized mutumbo, one-dimensional defensive player)

Joe Johnson>Jerry West
Lebron James> Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett>Bill Russell

then people decide not to include:

Shaq: Most dominant Center all time
Kobe: Most dominant perimeter player of all time (2nd at worse if you feel Jordan is better)
Garnett: The perfect basketball player. Most versatile player all time, has it all.

Like I always said , Jordan, Shaq and Kobe are top 3 all time. Reality.
:roll:

[Revelation]

It still boggles my mind when I read people's top 10 all time, and I see names like:

Jerry West (Lost in finals 8 times, weak , slow , garbage)
Bird (Would not be a top 5 player today, slow, defensive cancer)
Russell (6''9, 220 lb undersized mutumbo, one-dimensional defensive player)

Joe Johnson>Jerry West
Lebron James> Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett>Bill Russell

then people decide not to include:

Shaq: Most dominant Center all time
Kobe: Most dominant perimeter player of all time (2nd at worse if you feel Jordan is better)
Garnett: The perfect basketball player. Most versatile player all time, has it all.

Like I always said , Jordan, Shaq and Kobe are top 3 all time. Reality.
Does it bother you that virtually no basketball fan even remotely agrees with you? I mean, I can understand having a minority opinion, but your opinions are so far out that even the most biased fans don't agree.

[Jailblazers7]

Nice list BB. Question for everyone. How does everyone feel about Moses Malone? I think he's a Top 10 player all-time or no worst in the Top-15. He has a very underrated resume. 3 time MVP, 12 time All-Star (11 NBA), 3rd All-time total rebounds, Averaged 20/12 in his career etc, etc.

I would put him in the 9-12 range.

[~LA's fine$t~]

Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell or Hakeem Olajuwon were not better then Shaquille O'Neal.

[ScolaFan]

Yes, and you are welcome.

Very nice. :cheers:

[Harry Potty]

Any 'Top 10' list that doesn't include Kobe Bean Bryant = INVALID

[PistolPete]

I may put Wilt ahead of Kareem (or tied) but otherwise good list.

He should be ahead of Lew

[dyna]

Any 'Top 10' list that doesn't include Kobe Bean Bryant = INVALID


Under 21 for sure..

:wtf: :hammerhead:

[JJ81]

"true 100% legit"

Dude, you're probably the least credible poster on this forum.

[Riker]

"true 100% legit"

Dude, you're probably the least credible poster on this forum.

Who the **** are you to say who's credible or not in anything on this planet?


Sad.


MJ the GOAT

Great thread, cosigned.

[bruceblitz]

MICHAEL JORDAN
6 finals MVP's, 5 league MVP's, 10 scoring titles (6 while shooting over 50%), steals title, Defensive player of the year award, highest PPG in NBA history for the regular season (30.12) and playoffs (33.45). Averaged 31.5ppg and 51.5% shooting as a Chicago Bull against fierce defenses. Michael topped out at 37ppg in 1986-87, his best all around season looked like this: 32.5ppg - 8reb - 8ast - 2.9stl - .8blk on an amazing 54% shooting in 1988-89, Jordan had 5 seasons over 32 points per game. Jordan averaged 33.45ppg, 6.4reb, 5.7ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs for his career. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor. In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, a record which has never been threatened. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards.


KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR
6 MVP awards, won championships with both Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson, member of 6 championship teams, 2 Finals MVP's, 2 time scoring champ, 19 time all-star, all time NBA leading scorer for total points, 34.8ppg career high in the 71-72 season (also averaged 4.6 assists and 16.6 rebounds that year), averaged 5 assists per game or more for 3 seasons, averaged 16 rebounds or more for 4 seasons, made 56% of his shots for his career, the sky hook was UNSTOPPABLE! Kareem averaged 32ppg, 17reb, 4ast, on 50% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

WILT CHAMBERLAIN
7'1" 275lbs of pure beast, had a season averaging 24.3ppg, 23.8reb, 8.6ast in 1967-68, averaged over 20 rebounds per game for 11 seasons of his career, peaked out at 27.2 rebounds per game in 1960-61 while scoring 38.4ppg, averaged 50.4ppg on 50.6% shooting in the 1961-62 season, averaged 30.10 for his career on 54% shooting, made 72.7 of his shots in his final season in the NBA, his skill-set was amazing, featuring a fadeaway that was unstoppable along with his power moves in the post. The NBA did not record steals and blocks in that era. Wilt also won 7 scoring titles. Wilt averaged 35ppg, 25reb, 3ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

MAGIC JOHNSON
6'9" 255lbs or pure all around greatness, won 3 finals MVP's, 5 time NBA champ, 3 time NBA MVP, Averaged 18.6ppg 9.5ast 9.6reb per game in 1981-82(closest to Oscar Robertson's season of averaging a triple double, topped out at 23.9ppg, Magic was not a pure scorer but he was a great team basketball player, Magic Johnson averaged 3.4stl per game in 1980-81, Magic's season high for assists per game was 13.1ast per in 1983-84, Magic made 52% of his shots for his career, finishing with 19.5ppg 11.2ast and 7.2reb per game for his career. Magic averaged 19.5ppg, 7.7reb, 12.3ast on 50.6% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

LARRY BIRD
Larry Bird was the second greatest clutch player in NBA history next to Michael Jordan, 6'9" 220lbs of pure heart, what Larry lacked in athleticism he made up for it with pure hustle and determination, one of the most unorthodoxed scorers of all time Larry showed us all what it meant to grind out wins, Larry was able to up-stage some of the most athletic players in NBA history like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Dominique Wilkins and many many more. Many would argue that 1986-87 was Larry's best season, Larry averaged 28.1ppg 9.2reb and 7.6ast per game in 1986-87, Larry shot an amazing 37.6% from 3 point land for his career, made 49.6% of his shots, and Larry finished with 24.3ppg 10.0reb 6.3ast 1.7stl and .8blk per game for his entire career which is a staggering collection of team basketball production. Larry also won 2 finals MVP's, and 3 league MVP's. Larry averaged 23.8ppg, 10.3reb, 6.5ast on 47.2% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

BILL RUSSELL
Bill Russell was the greatest hustle player in NBA history, Bill Russell's scoring left a little to be desired and he wasn't a pure scorer, Bill Russell was a defensive legend and most likely the greatest defensive presence in NBA history. He was the "Wilt stopper". The NBA didn't provide steals and blocks stats back in Bill's career or his dominance on the defensive end of the court would show up in his production. Bill Russell averaged over 20 rebounds per game 10 times in his career, Bill Russell was a great passer out of double teams and he averaged over 5 assists per game twice in his career. Bill Russell was a 5 time league MVP, and a staggering 11 time NBA champion as the anchor of the legendary Celtics of the late 50's and 60's. Bill Russell finished with 15.1ppg 22.5reb 4.3ast on 44% shooting for his career. Russell averaged 20ppg, 26reb, 47%fg and 4ast per game in his prime during the playoffs.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON
Hakeem was arguably the most skilled center of all time in NBA history. His post moves, his ability to handle the rock and his athleticism are unmatched to this point by other NBA centers from any era. Hakeem racked up honor after honor in his NBA career. Hakeem was the NBA Finals MVP 2 times, Hakeem was the League MVP once, he would have had more MVP's but he was over-shadowed by the great Michael Air Jordan. Hakeem was the only player in NBA history to win an NBA League MVP, Defensive player of the year and NBA finals MVP in the same year. Hakeem peaked out just shy of 28 points per game, his peak rebound production was 14 rebounds per game and he had 6 years over 3 assists per game, and 9 years over 3 blocks per game peaking out at 4.6 blocks per game in the 1989-90 season. Hakeem had 5 years over 2 steals per game as well, and he ended his career as a 51.2% shooter, 3.1blk, 1.7stl, 11.1reb, 21.8ppg. Hakeem raised his level of play in the playoffs and he ended his playoff career as a 52.8% shooter, with 11.2reb, 3.2ast 25.9ppg in the playoffs.


OSCAR ROBERTSON
Oscar Robertson is quite honestly the greatest all around player the game has seen. In Oscar Robertson's second year in the NBA he averaged 30.8ppg, 12.reb, 11.4ast, as he averaged a triple double for an entire season, not even the great Larry Bird or Magic Johnson could do that.Oscar won a league MVP in 1964 on 47.8% shooting. Oscar had a silky smooth jumper/fadeaway and his post game is revered as the best in the history of the sport, this side of Michael Jordan. Oscar Robertson had 4 seasons at or over 11 assists per game. Oscar also had 3 seasons over 10 rebounds per game. Oscar closed out his career averaging 25.7ppg, 9.5ast, 7.5reb, and he was a 48.5% shooter for his career. Oscar Robertson didn't play on the greatest teams so his playoff numbers are a little skewed, A lot of his playoff numbers were amassed at the end of his career. In his prime Oscar averaged nearly 30 points per game on 47% shooting with nearly 9 rebounds and 10 assists per game in the playoffs during his prime.

SHAQ O'NEAL
The most dominant center in NBA Finals history was Shaq O'Neal as a Laker. Shaq O'Neal has been the most physically imposing center in the history of the game this side of Wilt Chamberlain. By his second year in the league Shaq was averaging over 29 points per game and he peaked out at 29.7ppg. Shaq has 5 years over 3 assists per game and has 13 years over 10 rebounds per game, Shaq also has been a great shot blocker having 12 years over 2 blocks per game. Shaq so far in his career has averaged 24.9ppg, 11.3reb, 2.6ast, 2.4blk on an amazing 58.1% shooting. He's not a pure shooter but his ability to dominate in the post helped create high % shot attempts for Shaq. Shaq always rose his level of play in the playoffs when he was a Laker, Shaq averaged over 15 rebounds twice in the playoffs, and over 30 points per game 3 times in the playoffs, the decline at the end of Shaq's career have skewed his playoff production a bit giving him 25.2ppg, 12.1reb, and 2.8ast on 50.1% shooting in the playoffs for his career. Shaq's production in the NBA Finals as a Laker looked like this: vs Indiana Pacers 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG, vs Philadelphia Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG, vs New Jersey Nets Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG, vs Detroit 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG. Shaq also has 3 finals MVP and a league MVP in his trophy case.

TIM DUNCAN
Tim Duncan is known for his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. In a similar fashion to Kevin McHale from the 80's, Duncan has been able to dominate teams with his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. He's not physically imposing and he's not a great athlete but his ability to be a great thinker and executor of his fundamentals is what sets him apart from most NBA players in the history of the game. Tim Duncan's career numbers are staggering averaging 21.5ppg, 11.8reb, 3.2ast, 2.4blk on 50.8% shooting. Duncan peaked out at 25.5ppg, he has 5 seasons over 12reb per, and 10 seasons over 2blk per. Tim Duncan raises hes level of play in the playoffs averaging 23.4ppg, 12.7, 3.5ast on 50.1% shooting for his career in the playoffs so far. Duncan has 3 Finals MVP's and 2 league MVP's in his trophy case.

It could still be years before I change my top 10 list. I don't see anyone truly close to cracking this list right now. D Wade and LeBron have top 10 of all time potential and if Kobe goes on a Finals MVP streak, he has a shot as well. Just not any time soon.

[oh the horror]

excellent. another all time top-10 thread.
1.Mark Madsen
2.Greg Kite
everyone else is a distant 3rd.


Dont forget Brad Lohaus

[D-Rose]

He should be ahead of Lew
His name is Kareem, get it right.

[giantgonzolez]

Guys like Jerry West are FAR FAR better than Shaq.
Shaq won't even be part of the 25PPG Playoff club when he retires.
It's laughable to put a guy who can't even join that club in the top 10.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Dont forget Brad Lohaus

oh, how could I forget Brad!? Dude was MONEY!!

LOL at the OP bumping his own thread.

[Scott Pippen]

He should be ahead of Lew
Of course I cannot argue this. I as well have Wilt Chamberlain as the best center if I really was forced to narrow down by position. :applause:

[Younggrease]

Can someone please explain how Oscar Robinson can be put over Shaq...I just don't see how it is arguable. Im not even trying to hate, I just dont see it..

[bruceblitz]

Can someone please explain how Oscar Robinson can be put over Shaq...I just don't see how it is arguable. Im not even trying to hate, I just dont see it..
Oscar Robertson is quite honestly the greatest all around player the game has seen

[Younggrease]

Oscar Robertson is quite honestly the greatest all around player the game has seen

I dont care how all around he was...Shaq would win me titles. Prime Shaq is a guy you can put against any player ever and you cant go wrong betting on him. I dont know if Oscar is on that level. Oscar was never the man in the NBA like Shaq was. Its was never his league.

[bruceblitz]

I dont care how all around he was...Shaq would win me titles. Prime Shaq is a guy you can put against any player ever and you cant go wrong betting on him. I dont know if Oscar is on that level. Oscar was never the man in the NBA like Shaq was. Its was never his league.
The Milwaukee Bucks never put a great team around him. Thankfully for the Big O they did have a guy named Kareem on the roster for a minute, only to lose him to the Lakers in the long run. If you did your true research on the Big O you would understand the impact he had on the game. Everyone from Jordan, to Magic, to LeBron all patterned their games after him to a certain level. Disputing my rankings of Oscar and Shaq is minor to me. I can see where you are coming from.

[Big#50]

I would get rid of Duncan and include :hammertime: .. Just kidding, Duncan has the best resume but I would take a prime Drob or Ewing over him. Duncan unlike Ewing or Drob had a center of DRBOB's ability to play with. Of course Drob was not the same player anymore... Both Ewing and Drob played with alot less talent than Duncan has played with and had to go against Hakeem and MJ.... Duncan really has had it easy. He only had Shaq to go against and usually lost AGAINST him... Also I remember Shaq usually shutting down Duncan in late game playoffs.. ..Having said all this I would put MOSES in this spot.. I know I rambled about other players but I take MOSES...
Duncan always played good against Shaq. Shaq had a way better team. Duncan had sick, sick numbers against Shaq. Duncan>Shaq

[Niquesports]

Replace Oscar Robertson with Jerry West and that would be a perfect top 10.

West was a better defender, shooter, team leader, & better in the clutch than Oscar Robertson.


That is debateable its very similar to Magic VS Bird talk most who saw most of both career would say Oscar was better Im one of them.

[Niquesports]

Nice list BB. Question for everyone. How does everyone feel about Moses Malone? I think he's a Top 10 player all-time or no worst in the Top-15. He has a very underrated resume. 3 time MVP, 12 time All-Star (11 NBA), 3rd All-time total rebounds, Averaged 20/12 in his career etc, etc.


I agree most 25 and under fans would die if anyone suggested that Mo was better than Shaq but most 40 and over know its not such a bad opinion. I can easyly see someone picking Mo over Shaq as well as Elgin over Duncan.MO never had the support Shaq had and when he did the 76ers were one of the greatest teams of all time and ELgin teams just kept losing to The Celtics as Duncans would have also.

[NBASTATMAN]

MICHAEL JORDAN
6 finals MVP's, 5 league MVP's, 10 scoring titles (6 while shooting over 50%), steals title, Defensive player of the year award, highest PPG in NBA history for the regular season (30.12) and playoffs (33.45). Averaged 31.5ppg and 51.5% shooting as a Chicago Bull against fierce defenses. Michael topped out at 37ppg in 1986-87, his best all around season looked like this: 32.5ppg - 8reb - 8ast - 2.9stl - .8blk on an amazing 54% shooting in 1988-89, Jordan had 5 seasons over 32 points per game. Jordan averaged 33.45ppg, 6.4reb, 5.7ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs for his career. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor. In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, a record which has never been threatened. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards.


KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR
6 MVP awards, won championships with both Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson, member of 6 championship teams, 2 Finals MVP's, 2 time scoring champ, 19 time all-star, all time NBA leading scorer for total points, 34.8ppg career high in the 71-72 season (also averaged 4.6 assists and 16.6 rebounds that year), averaged 5 assists per game or more for 3 seasons, averaged 16 rebounds or more for 4 seasons, made 56% of his shots for his career, the sky hook was UNSTOPPABLE! Kareem averaged 32ppg, 17reb, 4ast, on 50% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

WILT CHAMBERLAIN
7'1" 275lbs of pure beast, had a season averaging 24.3ppg, 23.8reb, 8.6ast in 1967-68, averaged over 20 rebounds per game for 11 seasons of his career, peaked out at 27.2 rebounds per game in 1960-61 while scoring 38.4ppg, averaged 50.4ppg on 50.6% shooting in the 1961-62 season, averaged 30.10 for his career on 54% shooting, made 72.7 of his shots in his final season in the NBA, his skill-set was amazing, featuring a fadeaway that was unstoppable along with his power moves in the post. The NBA did not record steals and blocks in that era. Wilt also won 7 scoring titles. Wilt averaged 35ppg, 25reb, 3ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

MAGIC JOHNSON
6'9" 255lbs or pure all around greatness, won 3 finals MVP's, 5 time NBA champ, 3 time NBA MVP, Averaged 18.6ppg 9.5ast 9.6reb per game in 1981-82(closest to Oscar Robertson's season of averaging a triple double, topped out at 23.9ppg, Magic was not a pure scorer but he was a great team basketball player, Magic Johnson averaged 3.4stl per game in 1980-81, Magic's season high for assists per game was 13.1ast per in 1983-84, Magic made 52% of his shots for his career, finishing with 19.5ppg 11.2ast and 7.2reb per game for his career. Magic averaged 19.5ppg, 7.7reb, 12.3ast on 50.6% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

LARRY BIRD
Larry Bird was the second greatest clutch player in NBA history next to Michael Jordan, 6'9" 220lbs of pure heart, what Larry lacked in athleticism he made up for it with pure hustle and determination, one of the most unorthodoxed scorers of all time Larry showed us all what it meant to grind out wins, Larry was able to up-stage some of the most athletic players in NBA history like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Dominique Wilkins and many many more. Many would argue that 1986-87 was Larry's best season, Larry averaged 28.1ppg 9.2reb and 7.6ast per game in 1986-87, Larry shot an amazing 37.6% from 3 point land for his career, made 49.6% of his shots, and Larry finished with 24.3ppg 10.0reb 6.3ast 1.7stl and .8blk per game for his entire career which is a staggering collection of team basketball production. Larry also won 2 finals MVP's, and 3 league MVP's. Larry averaged 23.8ppg, 10.3reb, 6.5ast on 47.2% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

BILL RUSSELL
Bill Russell was the greatest hustle player in NBA history, Bill Russell's scoring left a little to be desired and he wasn't a pure scorer, Bill Russell was a defensive legend and most likely the greatest defensive presence in NBA history. He was the "Wilt stopper". The NBA didn't provide steals and blocks stats back in Bill's career or his dominance on the defensive end of the court would show up in his production. Bill Russell averaged over 20 rebounds per game 10 times in his career, Bill Russell was a great passer out of double teams and he averaged over 5 assists per game twice in his career. Bill Russell was a 5 time league MVP, and a staggering 11 time NBA champion as the anchor of the legendary Celtics of the late 50's and 60's. Bill Russell finished with 15.1ppg 22.5reb 4.3ast on 44% shooting for his career. Russell averaged 20ppg, 26reb, 47%fg and 4ast per game in his prime during the playoffs.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON
Hakeem was arguably the most skilled center of all time in NBA history. His post moves, his ability to handle the rock and his athleticism are unmatched to this point by other NBA centers from any era. Hakeem racked up honor after honor in his NBA career. Hakeem was the NBA Finals MVP 2 times, Hakeem was the League MVP once, he would have had more MVP's but he was over-shadowed by the great Michael Air Jordan. Hakeem was the only player in NBA history to win an NBA League MVP, Defensive player of the year and NBA finals MVP in the same year. Hakeem peaked out just shy of 28 points per game, his peak rebound production was 14 rebounds per game and he had 6 years over 3 assists per game, and 9 years over 3 blocks per game peaking out at 4.6 blocks per game in the 1989-90 season. Hakeem had 5 years over 2 steals per game as well, and he ended his career as a 51.2% shooter, 3.1blk, 1.7stl, 11.1reb, 21.8ppg. Hakeem raised his level of play in the playoffs and he ended his playoff career as a 52.8% shooter, with 11.2reb, 3.2ast 25.9ppg in the playoffs.


OSCAR ROBERTSON
Oscar Robertson is quite honestly the greatest all around player the game has seen. In Oscar Robertson's second year in the NBA he averaged 30.8ppg, 12.reb, 11.4ast, as he averaged a triple double for an entire season, not even the great Larry Bird or Magic Johnson could do that.Oscar won a league MVP in 1964 on 47.8% shooting. Oscar had a silky smooth jumper/fadeaway and his post game is revered as the best in the history of the sport, this side of Michael Jordan. Oscar Robertson had 4 seasons at or over 11 assists per game. Oscar also had 3 seasons over 10 rebounds per game. Oscar closed out his career averaging 25.7ppg, 9.5ast, 7.5reb, and he was a 48.5% shooter for his career. Oscar Robertson didn't play on the greatest teams so his playoff numbers are a little skewed, A lot of his playoff numbers were amassed at the end of his career. In his prime Oscar averaged nearly 30 points per game on 47% shooting with nearly 9 rebounds and 10 assists per game in the playoffs during his prime.

SHAQ O'NEAL
The most dominant center in NBA Finals history was Shaq O'Neal as a Laker. Shaq O'Neal has been the most physically imposing center in the history of the game this side of Wilt Chamberlain. By his second year in the league Shaq was averaging over 29 points per game and he peaked out at 29.7ppg. Shaq has 5 years over 3 assists per game and has 13 years over 10 rebounds per game, Shaq also has been a great shot blocker having 12 years over 2 blocks per game. Shaq so far in his career has averaged 24.9ppg, 11.3reb, 2.6ast, 2.4blk on an amazing 58.1% shooting. He's not a pure shooter but his ability to dominate in the post helped create high % shot attempts for Shaq. Shaq always rose his level of play in the playoffs when he was a Laker, Shaq averaged over 15 rebounds twice in the playoffs, and over 30 points per game 3 times in the playoffs, the decline at the end of Shaq's career have skewed his playoff production a bit giving him 25.2ppg, 12.1reb, and 2.8ast on 50.1% shooting in the playoffs for his career. Shaq's production in the NBA Finals as a Laker looked like this: vs Indiana Pacers 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG, vs Philadelphia Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG, vs New Jersey Nets Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG, vs Detroit 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG. Shaq also has 3 finals MVP and a league MVP in his trophy case.

TIM DUNCAN
Tim Duncan is known for his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. In a similar fashion to Kevin McHale from the 80's, Duncan has been able to dominate teams with his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. He's not physically imposing and he's not a great athlete but his ability to be a great thinker and executor of his fundamentals is what sets him apart from most NBA players in the history of the game. Tim Duncan's career numbers are staggering averaging 21.5ppg, 11.8reb, 3.2ast, 2.4blk on 50.8% shooting. Duncan peaked out at 25.5ppg, he has 5 seasons over 12reb per, and 10 seasons over 2blk per. Tim Duncan raises hes level of play in the playoffs averaging 23.4ppg, 12.7, 3.5ast on 50.1% shooting for his career in the playoffs so far. Duncan has 3 Finals MVP's and 2 league MVP's in his trophy case.



I think MIKAN HAS TO BE ADDED BUT I LIKE THIS LIST ....... This is One of the better lists I have seen... Mikan has to be their though... Make it 11...

[big baller]

Well my order would look like this.

Jordan
Lew alcindor
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq Diesel
Oscar whats his face

Why do people say Lew Alcindor? He changed his name for a reason, and that was to become a muslim...please don't call him that anymore..:banghead: :banghead:

[big baller]

Hakeem >> Russel

[phoenix18]

The Big O is the at least one of the top three. For people saying that Oscar should be on the list, remember this, Lebron thought that Oscar's stats were rediculous.

[plowking]

Anyone who's actually watched them play will know that Bird was a better player then Magic.

[bruceblitz]

Anyone who's actually watched them play will know that Bird was a better player then Magic.
Better scorer, yes, better team basketball player, NO!
:hammerhead:

[plowking]

Better scorer, yes, better team basketball player, NO!
:hammerhead:

No, Bird was the better basketball player.

He was the one getting greatest of all time talk while playing, Magic wasn't. Bird was more dominant, smarter and just as good at pretty much ever facet of the game Magic was, and then better at some.

Bird was a more complete player.

[bruceblitz]

No, Bird was the better basketball player.

He was the one getting greatest of all time talk while playing, Magic wasn't. Bird was more dominant, smarter and just as good at pretty much ever facet of the game Magic was, and then better at some.

Bird was a more complete player.
Magic was the superior ball handler and passer, Bird was the superior scorer and defender, rebounding is about a tie. In the game of team basketball, not only was Magic more successful, he was the only player in NBA history "since" Oscar Robertson to come close to averaging a triple double for an entire season, I guess that's not a complete player. Bird was more dominant you say? I already said he was the better scorer. So you agree.

[Roundball_Rock]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Wilt Chamberlain
3) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4) Magic Johnson
5) Bird
6) Russell
7) Robertson
8) Shaq
9) Hakeem
10) K Malone

Kobe will be in the top 10 in a few seasons, barring injuries.

[plowking]

Magic was the superior ball handler and passer, Bird was the superior scorer and defender, rebounding is about a tie. In the game of team basketball, not only was Magic more successful, he was the only player in NBA history "since" Oscar Robertson to come close to averaging a triple double for an entire season, I guess that's not a complete player. Bird was more dominant you say? I already said he was the better scorer. So you agree.

Rebounding a tie? Bird averaged 3 more rebounds over his career.

[bruceblitz]

Rebounding a tie? Bird averaged 3 more rebounds over his career.
Magic Johnson defended the top of the key and Magic also started most plays at the top of the key. Take that into consideration and you see why I say "tie". Magic Johnson was great at fronting his opponent, boxing out, and getting the rebound. Dare I say he was better at boxing out than Bird who was a great rebounder, or should I say legendary rebounder per position. You may counter by saying Magic handled the ball more than Bird so that's why Magic had the higher assist average, but we both know Bird couldn't handle the ball like Magic did so that point would be mute. Magic was a fantastic rebounder.

[plowking]

Magic Johnson defended the top of the key and Magic also started most plays at the top of the key. Take that into consideration and you see why I say "tie". Magic Johnson was great at fronting his opponent, boxing out, and getting the rebound. Dare I say he was better at boxing out than Bird who was a great rebounder, or should I say legendary rebounder per position. You may counter by saying Magic handled the ball more than Bird so that's why Magic had the higher assist average, but we both know Bird couldn't handle the ball like Magic did so that point would be mute. Magic was a fantastic rebounder.

I didn't want to bring it up, but Bird was just as good if not a better passer then Magic.

[bruceblitz]

I didn't want to bring it up, but Bird was just as good if not a better passer then Magic.
I would agree to a certain extent. Bird's ability to draw in double teams and his court vision was on par with Magic's. As far as running the floor and ball handling was concerned though, Magic was superior. I truly miss the days of Magic Johnson and John Stockton running the offense on their respective teams. They were true court generals. Larry Bird's passing is underrated by so many observers of the game, I agree with you that he was a great passer.

[plowking]

Eh, I think a lot of people simply put Magic over Bird because it's not cool to have a 6'10 whiteboy ahead of the flashy 6'8 point guard.

[bruceblitz]

Eh, I think a lot of people simply put Magic over Bird because it's not cool to have a 6'10 whiteboy ahead of the flashy 6'8 point guard.
This could be true but that type of fan probably couldn't even analyze a jump ball or what a timeout is. :oldlol: :cheers:

[Duncan21formvp]

MICHAEL JORDAN
6 finals MVP's, 5 league MVP's, 10 scoring titles (6 while shooting over 50%), steals title, Defensive player of the year award, highest PPG in NBA history for the regular season (30.12) and playoffs (33.45). Averaged 31.5ppg and 51.5% shooting as a Chicago Bull against fierce defenses. Michael topped out at 37ppg in 1986-87, his best all around season looked like this: 32.5ppg - 8reb - 8ast - 2.9stl - .8blk on an amazing 54% shooting in 1988-89, Jordan had 5 seasons over 32 points per game. Jordan averaged 33.45ppg, 6.4reb, 5.7ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs for his career. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor. In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, a record which has never been threatened. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards.


KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR
6 MVP awards, won championships with both Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson, member of 6 championship teams, 2 Finals MVP's, 2 time scoring champ, 19 time all-star, all time NBA leading scorer for total points, 34.8ppg career high in the 71-72 season (also averaged 4.6 assists and 16.6 rebounds that year), averaged 5 assists per game or more for 3 seasons, averaged 16 rebounds or more for 4 seasons, made 56% of his shots for his career, the sky hook was UNSTOPPABLE! Kareem averaged 32ppg, 17reb, 4ast, on 50% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

WILT CHAMBERLAIN
7'1" 275lbs of pure beast, had a season averaging 24.3ppg, 23.8reb, 8.6ast in 1967-68, averaged over 20 rebounds per game for 11 seasons of his career, peaked out at 27.2 rebounds per game in 1960-61 while scoring 38.4ppg, averaged 50.4ppg on 50.6% shooting in the 1961-62 season, averaged 30.10 for his career on 54% shooting, made 72.7 of his shots in his final season in the NBA, his skill-set was amazing, featuring a fadeaway that was unstoppable along with his power moves in the post. The NBA did not record steals and blocks in that era. Wilt also won 7 scoring titles. Wilt averaged 35ppg, 25reb, 3ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

MAGIC JOHNSON
6'9" 255lbs or pure all around greatness, won 3 finals MVP's, 5 time NBA champ, 3 time NBA MVP, Averaged 18.6ppg 9.5ast 9.6reb per game in 1981-82(closest to Oscar Robertson's season of averaging a triple double, topped out at 23.9ppg, Magic was not a pure scorer but he was a great team basketball player, Magic Johnson averaged 3.4stl per game in 1980-81, Magic's season high for assists per game was 13.1ast per in 1983-84, Magic made 52% of his shots for his career, finishing with 19.5ppg 11.2ast and 7.2reb per game for his career. Magic averaged 19.5ppg, 7.7reb, 12.3ast on 50.6% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

LARRY BIRD
Larry Bird was the second greatest clutch player in NBA history next to Michael Jordan, 6'9" 220lbs of pure heart, what Larry lacked in athleticism he made up for it with pure hustle and determination, one of the most unorthodoxed scorers of all time Larry showed us all what it meant to grind out wins, Larry was able to up-stage some of the most athletic players in NBA history like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Dominique Wilkins and many many more. Many would argue that 1986-87 was Larry's best season, Larry averaged 28.1ppg 9.2reb and 7.6ast per game in 1986-87, Larry shot an amazing 37.6% from 3 point land for his career, made 49.6% of his shots, and Larry finished with 24.3ppg 10.0reb 6.3ast 1.7stl and .8blk per game for his entire career which is a staggering collection of team basketball production. Larry also won 2 finals MVP's, and 3 league MVP's. Larry averaged 23.8ppg, 10.3reb, 6.5ast on 47.2% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

BILL RUSSELL
Bill Russell was the greatest hustle player in NBA history, Bill Russell's scoring left a little to be desired and he wasn't a pure scorer, Bill Russell was a defensive legend and most likely the greatest defensive presence in NBA history. He was the "Wilt stopper". The NBA didn't provide steals and blocks stats back in Bill's career or his dominance on the defensive end of the court would show up in his production. Bill Russell averaged over 20 rebounds per game 10 times in his career, Bill Russell was a great passer out of double teams and he averaged over 5 assists per game twice in his career. Bill Russell was a 5 time league MVP, and a staggering 11 time NBA champion as the anchor of the legendary Celtics of the late 50's and 60's. Bill Russell finished with 15.1ppg 22.5reb 4.3ast on 44% shooting for his career. Russell averaged 20ppg, 26reb, 47%fg and 4ast per game in his prime during the playoffs.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON
Hakeem was arguably the most skilled center of all time in NBA history. His post moves, his ability to handle the rock and his athleticism are unmatched to this point by other NBA centers from any era. Hakeem racked up honor after honor in his NBA career. Hakeem was the NBA Finals MVP 2 times, Hakeem was the League MVP once, he would have had more MVP's but he was over-shadowed by the great Michael Air Jordan. Hakeem was the only player in NBA history to win an NBA League MVP, Defensive player of the year and NBA finals MVP in the same year. Hakeem peaked out just shy of 28 points per game, his peak rebound production was 14 rebounds per game and he had 6 years over 3 assists per game, and 9 years over 3 blocks per game peaking out at 4.6 blocks per game in the 1989-90 season. Hakeem had 5 years over 2 steals per game as well, and he ended his career as a 51.2% shooter, 3.1blk, 1.7stl, 11.1reb, 21.8ppg. Hakeem raised his level of play in the playoffs and he ended his playoff career as a 52.8% shooter, with 11.2reb, 3.2ast 25.9ppg in the playoffs.


OSCAR ROBERTSON
Oscar Robertson is quite honestly the greatest all around player the game has seen. In Oscar Robertson's second year in the NBA he averaged 30.8ppg, 12.reb, 11.4ast, as he averaged a triple double for an entire season, not even the great Larry Bird or Magic Johnson could do that.Oscar won a league MVP in 1964 on 47.8% shooting. Oscar had a silky smooth jumper/fadeaway and his post game is revered as the best in the history of the sport, this side of Michael Jordan. Oscar Robertson had 4 seasons at or over 11 assists per game. Oscar also had 3 seasons over 10 rebounds per game. Oscar closed out his career averaging 25.7ppg, 9.5ast, 7.5reb, and he was a 48.5% shooter for his career. Oscar Robertson didn't play on the greatest teams so his playoff numbers are a little skewed, A lot of his playoff numbers were amassed at the end of his career. In his prime Oscar averaged nearly 30 points per game on 47% shooting with nearly 9 rebounds and 10 assists per game in the playoffs during his prime.

SHAQ O'NEAL
The most dominant center in NBA Finals history was Shaq O'Neal as a Laker. Shaq O'Neal has been the most physically imposing center in the history of the game this side of Wilt Chamberlain. By his second year in the league Shaq was averaging over 29 points per game and he peaked out at 29.7ppg. Shaq has 5 years over 3 assists per game and has 13 years over 10 rebounds per game, Shaq also has been a great shot blocker having 12 years over 2 blocks per game. Shaq so far in his career has averaged 24.9ppg, 11.3reb, 2.6ast, 2.4blk on an amazing 58.1% shooting. He's not a pure shooter but his ability to dominate in the post helped create high % shot attempts for Shaq. Shaq always rose his level of play in the playoffs when he was a Laker, Shaq averaged over 15 rebounds twice in the playoffs, and over 30 points per game 3 times in the playoffs, the decline at the end of Shaq's career have skewed his playoff production a bit giving him 25.2ppg, 12.1reb, and 2.8ast on 50.1% shooting in the playoffs for his career. Shaq's production in the NBA Finals as a Laker looked like this: vs Indiana Pacers 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG, vs Philadelphia Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG, vs New Jersey Nets Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG, vs Detroit 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG. Shaq also has 3 finals MVP and a league MVP in his trophy case.

TIM DUNCAN
Tim Duncan is known for his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. In a similar fashion to Kevin McHale from the 80's, Duncan has been able to dominate teams with his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. He's not physically imposing and he's not a great athlete but his ability to be a great thinker and executor of his fundamentals is what sets him apart from most NBA players in the history of the game. Tim Duncan's career numbers are staggering averaging 21.5ppg, 11.8reb, 3.2ast, 2.4blk on 50.8% shooting. Duncan peaked out at 25.5ppg, he has 5 seasons over 12reb per, and 10 seasons over 2blk per. Tim Duncan raises hes level of play in the playoffs averaging 23.4ppg, 12.7, 3.5ast on 50.1% shooting for his career in the playoffs so far. Duncan has 3 Finals MVP's and 2 league MVP's in his trophy case.


Oscar isn't better than Duncan. Not even close.

[Mdog1]

I disagree with Jordan being on the list.

[Mdog1]

I disagree with Jordan being on the list.

[Fatal9]

Oscar Robertson continues to be on top 10 lists for some reason. Is there ANY reason why he makes it over Kobe? When we place his stats in context, look at his playoff record, look at PER, Kobe wins handily.

Agree with the rest of the list though I have Bird over Magic. Accomplishment wise, Magic has the clear edge but to me Bird is easily the better player (from a statistical and skill standpoint).

[Sir Charles]

EFF, PER and Statsticl +/- = REAL IMPACT

Not Popularity Contests
Not Bull MVP/All NBA Team Poularity Opinion Crap
Not Off the Court Activities Role Model Opinion or Like That Personality Better Crap
Not Championships, Championships = Teams :hammerhead: etc Crap!

Indicate the Following:

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 LeBron James 27.20 6
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18
14 Shaquille O'neal 27.11 17
15 Jerry West 27.10 14
16 David Robinson 26.98 14
17 Karl Malone 26.94 19
18 Kevin Garnett 26.80 14
19 Tim Duncan 26.39 12
20 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14

21 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
22 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
23 Chris Paul 25.31 4
24 Bob Lanier 25.29 14
25 Bob McAdoo 24.47 14
26 Dirk Nowitzki 24.34 11
27 Dwyane Wade 24.22 6
28 Moses Malone 24.14 19
29 Willis Reed 24.06 10
30 Elvin Hayes 24.04 16

31 Rick Barry 23.98 10
32 Elton Brand 23.96 10
33 Nate Thurmond 23.73 14
34 Chris Webber 23.72 15
35 Wes Unseld 23.70 13
36 Billy Cunningham 23.51 9
37 Patrick Ewing 23.41 17
38 Julius Erving 23.35 11
39 Neil Johnston 23.23 8
40 Dwight Howard 23.18 5

41 Brad Daugherty 23.10 8
42 Shawn Marion 22.99 10
43 Artis Gilmore 22.99 12
44 Amare Stoudemire 22.85 7
45 Walt Frazier 22.74 13
46 Gus Johnson 22.63 9
47 Adrian Dantley 22.60 15
48 Kobe Bryant 22.58 13
49 Clyde Drexler 22.42 15
50 Pau Gasol 22.33 8
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating (Season)

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 26.87
3. LeBron James 26.20
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Bob Pettit* 25.37
7. Tim Duncan 25.05
8. Neil Johnston* 24.66
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58

11. Magic Johnson* 24.11
12. Karl Malone 23.90
13. Dirk Nowitzki 23.84
14. Kevin Garnett 23.81
15. Kobe Bryant 23.63
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Julius Erving* 23.57
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Oscar Robertson* 23.17
20. Tracy McGrady 23.07

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

21. Yao Ming 23.03
22. Jerry West* 22.90
23. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
24. Elton Brand 22.38
25. Moses Malone* 22.00
26. Dolph Schayes* 21.93
27. John Stockton* 21.83
28. Pau Gasol 21.77
29. Bob Lanier* 21.69
30. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67

31. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
32. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
33. Harry Gallatin* 21.44
34. Vince Carter 21.41
35. Artis Gilmore 21.40
36. George Gervin* 21.38
37. Dan Issel* 21.37
38. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
39. Allen Iverson 21.10
40. Clyde Drexler* 21.07

41. Rick Barry* 21.04
42. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
43. Paul Pierce 21.00
44. Chris Webber 20.94
45. John Drew 20.74
46. Gilbert Arenas 20.74
47. Bob McAdoo* 20.73
48. Kevin Johnson 20.70
49. Chris Bosh 20.69
50. George Yardley* 20.52


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

Career Playoffs Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating (Play-Offs)

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.47
4. LeBron James 26.14
5. Tim Duncan 26.07
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Tracy McGrady 24.66
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.43
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 23.55

11. Dolph Schayes* 23.24
12. Kevin Garnett 23.19
13. Jerry West* 23.07
14. David Robinson* 23.03
15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
16. Magic Johnson* 22.95
17. Wilt Chamberlain* 22.76
18. Bob Pettit* 22.58
19. Baron Davis 22.19
20. Julius Erving* 22.05

21. Elgin Baylor* 21.88
22. Rick Barry* 21.79
23. Moses Malone* 21.56
24. Kobe Bryant 21.50
25. Larry Bird* 21.40
26. Vince Carter 21.40
27. Allen Iverson 21.23
28. George Gervin* 21.17
29. Karl Malone 21.12
30. Oscar Robertson* 20.98

31. Bob Lanier* 20.81
32. Pau Gasol 20.70
33. George Yardley* 20.69
34. Cliff Hagan* 20.62
35. Shawn Kemp 20.55
36. Gus Williams 20.40
37. Artis Gilmore 20.36
38. Manu Ginobili 20.35
39. Paul Arizin* 20.31
40. Dan Issel* 20.06

41. Alex English* 19.92
42. Walter Davis 19.91
43. John Stockton* 19.84
44. Walt Frazier* 19.84
45. Isiah Thomas* 19.80
46. Anfernee Hardaway 19.76
47. Clyde Lovellette* 19.73
48. George McGinnis 19.73
49. Clyde Drexler* 19.71
50. Chauncey Billups 19.64

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1415

Statistical +/-

Player Pos G Min SPM
---------------+--+----------+--------+------
michaeljordan G 1072 41013 12.85
wiltchamberlain C 1045 47859 11.59
davidrobinson C 987 34272 10.79
lebronjames F 444 18083 10.00
charlesbarkley F 1073 39330 9.03
k.abdul-jabbar C 1560 57446 9.01
magicjohnson G 906 33245 8.82
larrybird F 897 34443 8.81
juliuserving F 1243 45227 8.57
shaquilleo'neal C 1089 39103 8.21
bobpettit F 792 30690 7.87
clydedrexler G 1086 37537 7.79
oscarrobertson G 1040 43886 7.75
hakeemolajuwon C 1238 44222 7.70
elginbaylor F 846 33863 7.59
karlmalone F 1476 54852 7.50
andreikirilenko F 533 16671 7.37
timduncan F 877 32481 7.30
tracymcgrady F 784 27463 7.12
kevingarnett F 1051 39570 6.91

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

boblanier C 959 32103 6.24
kobebryant G 921 33584 6.22
jerrywest G 932 36571 6.17
bobbyjones F 941 25728 6.16
conniehawkins F 616 22232 6.08
dirknowitzki F 812 29663 5.97
neiljohnston C 516 18298 5.94
vincecarter G 752 28333 5.88
billrussell C 963 40726 5.85
larrynance F 920 30697 5.74
dolphschayes F 866 29800 5.65
johnstockton G 1504 47764 5.63
rickbarry F 1020 38153 5.56
waltfrazier G 825 30965 5.45
paulpierce F 788 29570 5.30
artisgilmore C 1329 47150 5.16
docrivers G 864 23567 5.16
alvinrobertson G 779 24669 5.13
d.wilkins F 1074 38113 5.10
billycunningham F 770 26844 5.09
scottiepippen F 1178 41069 4.97
booutlaw F 914 20750 4.91
eltonbrand F 643 24421 4.87
gilbertarenas G 431 16115 4.80
waltbellamy C 1043 38940 4.72
chriswebber F 831 30847 4.71
marquesjohnson F 691 23694 4.65
sidneymoncrief G 767 23150 4.60
rogerbrown F 605 21454 4.57
wesunseld C 984 35832 4.56

[Sir Charles]

Players that Appear in the Top 20 in Every 4 of the Categories (EFF, PER/Season + Play-Offs and Statistical +/-)

*not including players whom are still playing....

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Barkley
Hakeem
Robinson
Magic
Bob Petit

Players that Appear in the Top 20 in 3 of 4 of the Categories (EFF, PER/Season + Play-Offs and Statistical +/-)

*not including players whom are still playing....

Elgin Baylor
Karl Malone
Larry Bird
Dr J
Big O

So as We Can See There Are Really 8 Total Greatest Players of All Time whom which clearly have Impacted and Exceled in Real Evidence of Greatness:

EFF: Efficiency Production Career: this is much determined also but what the Level of Players You Have Around to Make You Better or You Make Them Better.

*Not how Bill Russel and Bird where masters at that!

PER: Efficiency Production Per Minute : this involves your Efficiency Production per Minute and physical attribute are very important here (athletic capacity, potence, speed, quickness, agility, leap, endurance etc)

Statistical +/- : This involves TOTAL IMPACT in a Game All Around Wise, Your Pluses and Your Cons Included.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Out of those 13 Greatest Players it is quite obvious that Kareems and Dr J`s EFF, PER and Statistical +/- is Higher because they played passed their primes

Kareem`s Real Prime was 1969/79-1981/82 (ages 22-32)
Dr J`s Real Prime was 1972/73-1982-83 (ages 22-32)

Some will obviously Argue that Dr J was Better in his Prime than Bird...which is Maybe debatable because THE NETS where NO TEAM :no: compared to BIRD`s...So Dr J was Probably the More Impactful Player although Bird was the Better Player at Making Others Better.

It is also obvious that Larry Bird was never the Same after 1988 because of injuries something that did not happen to Dr J aswell. Reason why Bird`s Peek was Better than Magic`s.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Same could be said to Hakeem and Karl Malone whom also played passed their primes but like those other 2 named before they where still effective passed their primes and ofcourse their PER, EFF and Statistical +/- where lowered

And some could argue that Hakeem > Robinson and Malone > Barkley from which i respond

Hakeem > Robinson. I say Yes

He prooved that he was a Clutcher Player under Stronger Competition Over The Years...reason why his Play-Off PER is > to Robinson`s and ofcourse his Capacity to make Others Better is also above Robinson`s

Lets also remember and point out that Robinson had the Weaker Casts so he pretty much had a Tougher Defensive Responsability than Hakeem`s FOR ALL OF HIS CAREER. People must admit to that!

Hakeem`s + Sampson Years from 1984-85 to 1986-87 was an Incredible Team
Hakeem`s after Sampson Years from 1987-88 Was- 1994-95 Good to Great Team

Robinson`1989-90 to 1996-97 was an Average to Good Team

So Yes Hakeem was Better but not by the Large Margin Most People Think :no: Infact by a Smaller Magin.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now Charles Barkley vs Karl Malone.

Some may see Malone was Better because he Lasted Longer Playing at a Superior Level. I Say Yes, It is True:

BUT...

That is NOT an Argument of "HOW GOOD" A Player Is or Was. That is an argument of how FIT and Durable a Player Is.

If you look at their Primes...ages 22-32 the edge goes for Barkley slightly... and Malone played more minutes to show for less. If you look at Passed Their Primes: ages 33-36 or 33-40 the edge goes to Malone clearly.

Anyone who saw the NBA in the late 80s and early 90s knows that Barkley was about to retire the 1994-95 season due to back injuries...similar injuries to those that Bird had in 1989 which evidenced that Bird could never again play like he could before. It was Ainge that convinced him to stay. To end it all, when he got to the Rockets he fuc-ked up his kneed and it was all over.

*Same goes for a 1989-90 to 1995-96 Robinson
*Same goes for a 1993-94 to 1999-200 Grant Hill

They where no longer the Players they where before..

Not to forget the fact that

Karl Malone`s Teams from 1985-86 to 1992-93 Was Good Team
Barkley`s Teams from 1984-85 to 1985-86 was a Great Team! but he was Rookie Playing Few Minutes in 1984-85 and it Was an Era Full of Greater Teams (something that in 90s and 2000s is Non Existant!). It was the Toughest Era in NBA History

Then..

Barkley`s Team from 1986-87 was an Average Team while Malone`s Was Still a Good Team

And ofcourse from 1987-88 to 1991-92 Barkley had A PATHETIC TEAM! which lived Off What Barkley Produced and did not even deserve to Go to the Play-Offs

While Malone and Stockon where Enjoying of each other One Dimensional Game: Stockton designing everything for him on Pick and Rolls or Breaks and having a Top Defensive Rating/Shot Blocking Machine Mark Eaton to anchor their Teams Defense so they could Run Freely in a WEAKER CONFERENCE than what Barkley played in.

So...

Malone is by No Means > Barkley AT ALL :no:

Infact Total Opposite

Not to forget the Stat Floor % another Great Statistic that evidenced "A ONCE HATER OF BARKLEY" that clearly said even though this man was hated or envied by the Media, the Fans or the Coaches... it was prooven that he was the Best Player along Jordan after the Bird-Magic Legacy in the Late 80s and Early 90s.

BUT...My Friends the fact that Barkley Was Obviously Better than Malone to "Anyone Who Knows Basketball" relies especifically in the fact:

That Charles`s PLAY-OFF Acitivity was CLEARLY Above Malone`s.

*Second Player to Wilt Chamberlain to have more 40 Pt/ 20 Rbd games! :hammerhead:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally:

It is there in the Play-Offs then Competition gets Tougher and that is an Area that neither Robinson nor Malone could match either Hakeem or Barkley...especially in THE OFFENSIVE WAY and the ALL AROUND GAME WAY.

So the edge goes for both Hakeem and Barkley...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE REAL GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME ARE:

*In no Order

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Barkley
Hakeem
Robinson
Magic
Larry Bird
Dr. J
Bob Petit

In the Top 10-15 are:

-Elgin Baylor
-Karl Malone
-Big O
-Jerry West


Others who will be eligable to be compared to these dudes on top are soon:

Shaq
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett

Below Them:

Dirk Nowitzki
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade

But before that whe must wait for their careers to be over some are still in their primes...so we can firstly compare them to Top 15/20-50 Greatest Players That Involve: The Gilmores, The Ewings, The Russels, the Waltons, The Thurmonds, The Laniers, The Waltons, The Unselds, The Hayes, The Bellamys, The Lucases, The Cowneses, The Kevin McHales, The Webbers, The Barrys, The Pippen`s, The Wilkins, The Dantleys, The Drexlers, They Maravichs, The Stocktons, The Isiahs, The Fraizers, The Gary Paytons etc....and from their generation a notch below:

The Nashes, The Kidds, The Grant Hills, The Iversons etc...

End! :violin:

[Roundball_Rock]

Oscar isn't better than Duncan. Not even close.

Malone>Duncan.

[Sir Charles]

Malone>Duncan.

*Not including the players the players that are still active.

Well in a Running Gunning Team with Great Passers I`d Take Malone over Duncan in a Slow Paced Half Court Team I`d Pick Duncan....

[Showtime]

Oscar Robertson continues to be on top 10 lists for some reason. Is there ANY reason why he makes it over Kobe? When we place his stats in context, look at his playoff record, look at PER, Kobe wins handily.

He was more individually dominant in his time. He continually faced superior teams in his playoff runs, including the Celtics and Wilt and Greer with the sixers, and didn't have the benefit of the best big man in the game until the latter stages of his career.

Interestingly, when Oscar left the Bucks, they declined and KAJ wanted out. When Shaq left LA, they declined with Kobe and Shaq went on to win elsewhere.

I wouldn't expect Kobe in Charlotte to have much postseason success either (as we saw with Kobe's years without Shaq and without arguably the most talented team in the game).

So, taking everything in context, and not just your narrow viewpoint of what makes a great player, Oscar did more for the game of basketball (including his college success) than Kobe, had a better overall level of play, and had the misfortune of playing in an era dominated by the celtics (who he took to 7 games at one point).

Another question I have is why Kobe is considered superior to Jerry West.

[Juges8932]

I don't agree with your list, but you backed up your reasoning, so repped.

[Niquesports]

I didn't want to bring it up, but Bird was just as good if not a better passer then Magic.


Bird was a Great passer for his postion just as Bill Walton was but neither had the court vision or floor leadership that Magic had.Sure passing the ball to the open man is good but running an offense and getting the ball to a player that is in the best postion to score is much harder.

[Niquesports]

Eh, I think a lot of people simply put Magic over Bird because it's not cool to have a 6'10 whiteboy ahead of the flashy 6'8 point guard.


Maybe it could be that many fans saw how Magic was constatly able to lead his team over Birds in big games.Some people always want to say how great Bird was at making his teammates better. What did Magic do in making his teammates better?
Jabbar extended his career as an effective center
Scott helped make him into an ALL Star SG
Worthy a very good player helped make him into an HOFer
Divac a avg C won a title with him
Norm Nixon has anyone seen him since he left the lakers he went from Stormin Norm to Debbie Allens Husband
Bob Mcadoo revitazied his career
Kurt Rambus would have been a 12th man with anyone else
Riley made him a HOF coach.
the list goes on.

[ukplayer4]

Jordan rules
There weren't flagrant fouls in Jordan's era. Teams would just knock Jordan to the floor, and the referee's only option was to call a regular foul.

Handchecking
The NBA got rid of handchecking, this was to allow for easier driving to the basket and it free's up the ball handler. In Michael's era, they would double team him as soon as his shoulder dropped and he tried taking it to the hoop. It was legal to stop Jordan with your hands, not just your feet and position. Handchecking helped out less athletic defenders, who could make up for being half a step slow, by using their hands to hold the ball-handler at 'bay'.

Bigs waiting in the paint
In Michael's era, bigs had a right to 'airspace'. Now the rules are as such that bigs can't jump to block a dunk or layup because if they make contact, it's a foul. There was no 3 second rule so teams would clog the lane to take away MJ's 'above the rim attack'. In Jordan's day you could jump from inside of the circle, or wherever you wanted, and as long as you jumped straight up, and not into the ball-handler, it was not a foul. Much more physical brand of basketball was played in Michael Jordan's era.

Also now they allow ball-handlers to carry the basketball. As well as players like Kobe Bryant get more touch fouls now on the perimeter than any single player in the history of the sport. It is a changed game.

My favorite performances were when Jordan averaged over 41ppg vs the Phoenix Suns who had great players on their roster, top to bottom. He had one game of 55 points in that series. My other favorite performance was when Jordan put on a Magic Johnson type performance in the 1991 NBA Finals, Jordan averaged over 30 points per game, on over 55% shooting, but the amazing part was that Jordan averaged 11.4 assists per game in that series. Jordan also won a defensive player of the year award, among plenty of other accolades and unreachable records....

Michael Jordan's most important pieces to his legacy are his 14 mvps(3 all star, 6 finals, 5 league), the fact that he is the only guard in NBA history to LEAD his team to multi-championships with the absence of a dominant big man. Add in Jordan's 10 scoring titles, 30+ 6+ 6+ for his career in the NBA finals, greatest career ppg average in the regular season and playoffs, he surpassed Wilt as the greatest scorer ever over a cumulative amount of time with consistent dominance.

Jordan's importance to the game cannot be put into words, his epic legacy he left on the game will never be paralleled or surpassed.

Even the most hyped up players of today's game (Kobe Bryant) pale in comparison to the greatest of all time



yes, good points. and good things to remember as some idiots on here are claiming lebron is already better than mj. if lebron wins the title this year i bet there will be plenty more of them as well.

[Niquesports]

No, Bird was the better basketball player.

He was the one getting greatest of all time talk while playing, Magic wasn't. Bird was more dominant, smarter and just as good at pretty much ever facet of the game Magic was, and then better at some.

Bird was a more complete player.


The only thing Bird was better than Magic was shooting and FT.
Magic better ball handler
Better passer
Just as good rebounder
Better team leader
Bigger in the clutch games.
Better at beating a team in different ways scoring,passing,up top,posting up, Magic was better all around

[giantgonzolez]

Shaq wat too low, Hakeem>Russell

NO, Shaq shouldn't be on the list at all, throw Shaq out and bring in Barkley.

[Sir Charles]

The only thing Bird was better than Magic was shooting and FT.
Magic better ball handler
Better passer
Just as good rebounder
Better team leader
Bigger in the clutch games.
Better at beating a team in different ways scoring,passing,up top,posting up, Magic was better all around

:no: Bird in his prime 1979 to 1988 was clearly better than Magic and he had inferior All Around Casts to compete in the Play-Offs where Magic also faced the Weaker Conference

Player Efficiency Rating

1981-82 NBA 22.6 (8)
1982-83 NBA 24.1 (3)
1983-84 NBA 24.2 (2)
1984-85 NBA 26.5 (1)
1985-86 NBA 25.6 (1)
1986-87 NBA 26.4 (3)
1987-88 NBA 27.8 (2)


Player Efficiency Rating

1981-82 NBA 22.9 (7)
1982-83 NBA 23.0 (6)
1983-84 NBA 22.6 (7)
1984-85 NBA 23.2 (4)
1985-86 NBA 24.0 (4)
1986-87 NBA 27.0 (2)
1987-88 NBA 23.1 (8)


Bird was the Better Shooter. from wherever you wan`t to name it: FT, Mid Range, Far Range, Post Up Player and almost as Good of a Driver Initially...untill he hurt his back.

Bird was the Better Rebounder and could get 10 RPG on PFs and 7fts ona daily case

Bird was the Better Interior Defender and almost as Good as Floor Defender as Magic but Overall the Better Defender
Defensive Rating

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (7)
1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (8)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)

Defensive Rating

1980-81 NBA 98.3 (8)

Bird was the Better Clutch Shooter ofcourse

Bird was as Good Passer as Magic with the difference he Didn`t have Possesion of the Ball as much as a PG even though his game resembled one more of a SG with PG like Passing Abilities/Hands and Court Vision.

Strength wise they where about the same level although Bird had Superior Floor Strength[/COLOR]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Magic was the Better Ball Handler ofcourse, the Faster and More Potent Player (despite him not being an Athletic Specimen), The Better Floor Defender (slightly), the Better Driver and the More Creative Player or Talented...Which Does Not = Skilled :no:

There Fundamentals and Court Vision where Around the Same...One of the Highest Ever for their Positions and for their 6`8 and 6`9 frames...where just Out of This World.

[Sir Charles]

NO, Shaq shouldn't be on the list at all, throw Shaq out and bring in Barkley.

Yes he should he is featured in Most or All 4 Categories of the REAL GREATNESS of a Player He is in the Top 13 of All Time and Barkley aswell ofcourse with ease :bowdown: ....

[OldSchoolBBall]

The only thing Bird was better than Magic was shooting and FT.
Magic better ball handler
Better passer
Just as good rebounder
Better team leader
Bigger in the clutch games.
Better at beating a team in different ways scoring,passing,up top,posting up, Magic was better all around

LMAO @ the bolded. LMAO @ the notion that Magic was a more clutch player than Bird. Only a Laker homer could even suggest such a thing. Bird's peak > Magic's peak. Everyone at the time knew it; only now, 20 years later, do people try to argue otherwise.

[Niquesports]

:no: Bird in his prime 1979 to 1988 was clearly better than Magic and he had inferior All Around Casts to compete in the Play-Offs where Magic also faced the Weaker Conference
I would not say the cletics were an inferior cast compared to the Lakers this is just a excuse to explain why Magic beat Bird more the cast were even at bestPlayer Efficiency Rating

1981-82 NBA 22.6 (8)
1982-83 NBA 24.1 (3)
1983-84 NBA 24.2 (2)
1984-85 NBA 26.5 (1)
1985-86 NBA 25.6 (1)
1986-87 NBA 26.4 (3)
1987-88 NBA 27.8 (2)


Player Efficiency Rating

1981-82 NBA 22.9 (7)
1982-83 NBA 23.0 (6)
1983-84 NBA 22.6 (7)
1984-85 NBA 23.2 (4)
1985-86 NBA 24.0 (4)
1986-87 NBA 27.0 (2)
1987-88 NBA 23.1 (8)


Bird was the Better Shooter. from wherever you wan`t to name it: FT, Mid Range, Far Range, Post Up Player and almost as Good of a Driver Initially...untill he hurt his back.

Bird was the Better Rebounder and could get 10 RPG on PFs and 7fts ona daily case
Magic almost avg a tripple double playing PG if he played in the post more often he easly could have gotten as many reb as BirdBird was the Better Interior Defender and almost as Good as Floor Defender as Magic but Overall the Better Defender
Defensive Rating
IF Bird was the better "interior" defender than Magic was the better exterior defender. Bird rarely defended the other teams top scorer aka Dominique or Worthy which would make it a lot easier for him at PG Magic had to defend either a scoring SG or a faster smaller PG more difficult assignment

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (7)
1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (8)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)

Defensive Rating

1980-81 NBA 98.3 (8)

Bird was the Better Clutch Shooter ofcourse
BUt Magic won in the clutch more often whith a shot or big time pass of courseBird was as Good Passer as Magic with the difference he Didn`t have Possesion of the Ball as much as a PG even though his game resembled one more of a SG with PG like Passing Abilities/Hands and Court Vision.
You use this excuse for Bird but not for Magic when it comes to rebounding why?Strength wise they where about the same level although Bird had Superior Floor Strength[/COLOR]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Magic was the Better Ball Handler ofcourse, the Faster and More Potent Player (despite him not being an Athletic Specimen), The Better Floor Defender (slightly), the Better Driver and the More Creative Player or Talented...Which Does Not = Skilled :no:

There Fundamentals and Court Vision where Around the Same...One of the Highest Ever for their Positions and for their 6`8 and 6`9 frames...where just Out of This World.


YOu can use all the fantasy basketball stats you want One thing is for sure Magic did what Bird couldnt run an offense both could score as many pts as there team needed to win, both could reb. both could pass although Magic could pass better but only one could run an offense Magic. Thats why Boston always had a quality PG So that Bird could be free to move without the ball.

[Niquesports]

LMAO @ the bolded. LMAO @ the notion that Magic was a more clutch player than Bird. Only a Laker homer could even suggest such a thing. Bird's peak > Magic's peak. Everyone at the time knew it; only now, 20 years later, do people try to argue otherwise.


IF Bird was so much more a clutch player than Magic why is it that Magic has more RIngs. In college,at peak, at end of there careers Magic was better. Everyone at the time knew it Bird just got extra hype and we know why. The line would go something simular like this

Bird 25pt 11 rebs 5 ast.
Magic 18pts 10reb 15ast
Lakers win title
Looks to me like Magic had the better game

[BlazersDozen]

Larry Bird is overrated!

[Duncan21formvp]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Wilt Chamberlain
3) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4) Magic Johnson
5) Bird
6) Russell
7) Robertson
8) Shaq
9) Hakeem
10) K Malone

Kobe will be in the top 10 in a few seasons, barring injuries.

Karl Malone nor Oscar are better than Duncan? How many finals mvps do they have?

[Big#50]

Magic
Duncan/Hakeem
Lebron
Kobe
Jordan
Shaq
Bird
Kareem
Barkley

[Big#50]

:no: Bird in his prime 1979 to 1988 was clearly better than Magic and he had inferior All Around Casts to compete in the Play-Offs where Magic also faced the Weaker Conference

Player Efficiency Rating

1981-82 NBA 22.6 (8)
1982-83 NBA 24.1 (3)
1983-84 NBA 24.2 (2)
1984-85 NBA 26.5 (1)
1985-86 NBA 25.6 (1)
1986-87 NBA 26.4 (3)
1987-88 NBA 27.8 (2)


Player Efficiency Rating

1981-82 NBA 22.9 (7)
1982-83 NBA 23.0 (6)
1983-84 NBA 22.6 (7)
1984-85 NBA 23.2 (4)
1985-86 NBA 24.0 (4)
1986-87 NBA 27.0 (2)
1987-88 NBA 23.1 (8)


Bird was the Better Shooter. from wherever you wan`t to name it: FT, Mid Range, Far Range, Post Up Player and almost as Good of a Driver Initially...untill he hurt his back.

Bird was the Better Rebounder and could get 10 RPG on PFs and 7fts ona daily case

Bird was the Better Interior Defender and almost as Good as Floor Defender as Magic but Overall the Better Defender
Defensive Rating

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (7)
1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (8)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)

Defensive Rating

1980-81 NBA 98.3 (8)

Bird was the Better Clutch Shooter ofcourse

Bird was as Good Passer as Magic with the difference he Didn`t have Possesion of the Ball as much as a PG even though his game resembled one more of a SG with PG like Passing Abilities/Hands and Court Vision.

Strength wise they where about the same level although Bird had Superior Floor Strength[/COLOR]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Magic was the Better Ball Handler ofcourse, the Faster and More Potent Player (despite him not being an Athletic Specimen), The Better Floor Defender (slightly), the Better Driver and the More Creative Player or Talented...Which Does Not = Skilled :no:

There Fundamentals and Court Vision where Around the Same...One of the Highest Ever for their Positions and for their 6`8 and 6`9 frames...where just Out of This World.
**** stats. Magic is the greatest of all time.

[Sir Charles]

YOu can use all the fantasy basketball stats you want One thing is for sure Magic did what Bird couldnt run an offense both could score as many pts as there team needed to win, both could reb. both could pass although Magic could pass better but only one could run an offense Magic. Thats why Boston always had a quality PG So that Bird could be free to move without the ball.

Ofcourse he could score points efficienty if you have Kareem Abdul Jabbar shooting 55-58% FG and one of the Best Offensive PF-SF Master of the Baseline Line Off in James Worthy....Athletic Gunners-Shooters and Defenders like Cooper, Scott, McAdoo, Norm Nixon all whoe could score...you get alot of open shots!

Kareem-Magic-Worthy > Bird-McHale-Parish

but Kareem and Bird > Magic in their primes...

Magic had the better team and played in the Weaker confrence in the NBA in the 80s they never had to suffer to go the finals but against the Twin Towers while the Celtics had to go by the Early 80s Sixers, Bucks, Pistons, Knicks, Cavs, Bulls! way Superior Competition!

Running the Offense? :rolleyes: thats a PGs Job nothing is Surprising there ...:confusedshrug: while Bird ran the Offense from the SF Spot!, Rebounded like a PF, defended both SFs and PFs (was a superior Defender Overall; Defensive Rating says so), was a SG threat from Away from the Post and Was a Passing/Game Creating PG like Threat from the SF-PF Spot

Bird`s Prime from 1982-1988 he was the Best Player in the NBA along Moses and Then Magic until Charles and Hakeem developed and took over.

I already named the Skills that MAgic was Better at and Bird was Better at most skills reason why he could beat the Lakers which by far had the Best Team in the NBA.

Bird made the Celtics while Kareem and Magic made the Lakers

The Celtics without Bird hardly a contender. The Lakers withouth Magic a Contender even after their primes it was prooved in 1993 and when Bird arrived in 79 againt prooved.
:sleeping

[Niquesports]

Ofcourse he could score points efficienty if you have Kareem Abdul Jabbar shooting 55-58% FG and one of the Best Offensive PF-SF Master of the Baseline Line Off in James Worthy....Athletic Gunners-Shooters and Defenders like Cooper, Scott, McAdoo, Norm Nixon all whoe could score...you get alot of open shots!

Kareem-Magic-Worthy > Bird-McHale-Parish

but Kareem and Bird > Magic in their primes...

Magic had the better team and played in the Weaker confrence in the NBA in the 80s they never had to suffer to go the finals but against the Twin Towers while the Celtics had to go by the Early 80s Sixers, Bucks, Pistons, Knicks, Cavs, Bulls! way Superior Competition!

Running the Offense? :rolleyes: thats a PGs Job nothing is Surprising there ...:confusedshrug: while Bird ran the Offense from the SF Spot!, Rebounded like a PF, defended both SFs and PFs (was a superior Defender Overall; Defensive Rating says so), was a SG threat from Away from the Post and Was a Passing/Game Creating PG like Threat from the SF-PF Spot

Bird`s Prime from 1982-1988 he was the Best Player in the NBA along Moses and Then Magic until Charles and Hakeem developed and took over.

I already named the Skills that MAgic was Better at and Bird was Better at most skills reason why he could beat the Lakers which by far had the Best Team in the NBA.

Bird made the Celtics while Kareem and Magic made the Lakers

The Celtics without Bird hardly a contender. The Lakers withouth Magic a Contender even after their primes it was prooved in 1993 and when Bird arrived in 79 againt prooved.
:sleeping

Stop making excuses for Bird he played with 2 Top 50 players Parrish and Mchale he played with 2 great PG Tiny and DJ Kareem was past his prime after 83 Parrish was still in his magic was just better when it came to a big game. Everything you say Bird could do Magic did also as a PG is the same comparison with Wilt and Russ everyone wants to say WIlt was so much better because of his stats but Russ did what it took for his team to win thats the better player same with Magic

[Sir Charles]

Bird was a Great passer for his postion just as Bill Walton was but neither had the court vision or floor leadership that Magic had.Sure passing the ball to the open man is good but running an offense and getting the ball to a player that is in the best postion to score is much harder.

:rolleyes:

Bird had superior Floor Leadership than Magic...what are you kidding me? :hammerhead:

Magic wasn`t even the Leader of the Lakers untill Kareem retired and Kareem was the Better Clutch Player till 1985 while with Bird..The Celtics where contender Without Bird = they could hardly get to the Play-Offs in both Early 80s and Late 80s-Early 90s.

Bird had Better Court Vision than Magic but Magic had The Size for a PG, Potence and Ball Handling Ability that Perimeted Him to Draw More Defenses and Get Passed His Man to Later Get the Ball to the Open Man Faster, plus he is a PG that Ran the Offense don`t confuse the two.

A Prime Bill Walton Was One of the Greatest Defenders of All Time and Right Up There With the Best Passing and Game Creating Centers of All Time

[Bush4Ever]

I'm shocked Moses Malone hasn't been on people's lists.

To me, a superior player to Oscar, West, or Kobe in his prime.

I would certainly build a team around Moses Malone before any of the other three.

[rawimpact]

Lebron james should not be mentioned in this thread.

[Bush4Ever]

:rolleyes:

Bird had superior Floor Leadership than Magic...what are you kidding me? :hammerhead:

Magic wasn`t even the Leader of the Lakers untill Kareem retired

Magic was the official leader of the Lakers from 1987 onwards, per Pat Riley.

[Sir Charles]

Magic was the official leader of the Lakers from 1987 onwards, per Pat Riley.

Yes but before that Kareem was...

Larry Bird was a Better Leader...

[Roundball_Rock]

Why is the "#1 option" standard not invoked regarding Magic like it is with Kobe? Magic won only one ring as the #1 option. He was not even the #2 option most of the time--he was the #3 option for three of his five championships. Interestingly, while Bird was the #1 option in all three title years Parish had a far higher PER (6 points higher than Bird, Parish was at 25, strong MVP candidate level according to Hollinger) than him in 1981. What say you about that, Sir_Charles? Parish>Bird that season? (PER is biased in favor of big men, especially centers)

[Fatal9]

How clueless do you have to be to include Oscar in your list over West, Malone, Kobe, Robinson, Dr. J etc.?

Also I agree with the posters who are saying Bird was better than Magic. Scoring is more important to me than racking up assists in a fast paced offense, especially for top players because at a certain point, you need to be reliable enough to score instead of letting your teammates take care of it. So Bird's edge in scoring is huge.

Better defender and he was just as good a passer as Magic in the half court imo. Might sound outrageous but watch the games. His ability to strike cutters (like McHale, Parish) with a perfect pass is matched only by very few players. You'll see him do it several times a game too. Bird is a top 4 player for me and quite possibly my favorite ever (Pippen and Jordan are close though).

Somehow though, you see Laker fans claiming Magic was GOAT when he is no where close to it. What gives :confusedshrug:. I'd say Kobe passes him with just another ring.


(PER is biased in favor of big men, especially centers)
100% agreed. Rebounds (depends on the players around you and based primarily on position) and blocks (which don't even guarantee that your team gets ball!) are a great way to hike up your PER without impacting the game much.

[dajadeed]

Yes but before that Kareem was...

Larry Bird was a Better Leader...

How about a rookie starting at center in the NBA finals and posting one of the greatest stat lines you'll see?

That's not leadership?

And Bird had better court vision than Magic? :oldlol:

[vert48]

Divac a avg C won a title with him
Divac only played in the NBA finals once, against the Bulls in 1991, but the Lakers lost.

[1~Gibson~1]

Did you write this?he saves it to his computer :lol

[Niquesports]

:rolleyes:

Bird had superior Floor Leadership than Magic...what are you kidding me? :hammerhead:

Magic wasn`t even the Leader of the Lakers untill Kareem retired and Kareem was the Better Clutch Player till 1985 while with Bird..The Celtics where contender Without Bird = they could hardly get to the Play-Offs in both Early 80s and Late 80s-Early 90s.

Bird had Better Court Vision than Magic but Magic had The Size for a PG, Potence and Ball Handling Ability that Perimeted Him to Draw More Defenses and Get Passed His Man to Later Get the Ball to the Open Man Faster, plus he is a PG that Ran the Offense don`t confuse the two.

A Prime Bill Walton Was One of the Greatest Defenders of All Time and Right Up There With the Best Passing and Game Creating Centers of All Time


The Lakers weren't a championship team until Magic got there................
The big thing with these Bird lovers is that they just cant except that Magic was the better player unlike the other greats with maybe the exception of Russell Magic was able to dominate a game with more than just his scoring with the exception of Oscar there was not a more complete player than magic in the history of the Game.

[Niquesports]

Yes but before that Kareem was...

Larry Bird was a Better Leader...


BUt Magic was better at leading his team to VICTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Niquesports]

How clueless do you have to be to include Oscar in your list over West, Malone, Kobe, Robinson, Dr. J etc.?

Also I agree with the posters who are saying Bird was better than Magic. Scoring is more important to me than racking up assists in a fast paced offense, especially for top players because at a certain point, you need to be reliable enough to score instead of letting your teammates take care of it. So Bird's edge in scoring is huge.

Better defender and he was just as good a passer as Magic in the half court imo. Might sound outrageous but watch the games. His ability to strike cutters (like McHale, Parish) with a perfect pass is matched only by very few players. You'll see him do it several times a game too. Bird is a top 4 player for me and quite possibly my favorite ever (Pippen and Jordan are close though).

Somehow though, you see Laker fans claiming Magic was GOAT when he is no where close to it. What gives :confusedshrug:. I'd say Kobe passes him with just another ring.


100% agreed. Rebounds (depends on the players around you and based primarily on position) and blocks (which don't even guarantee that your team gets ball!) are a great way to hike up your PER without impacting the game much.


Well with your silly logic Dominique Wilkins is better than Magic also. Lets not forget when needed Magic could score with the best of them but that wasnt his game his game was winning be it by scoring or passing or both something Bird could do night in night out.

[phoenix18]

How clueless do you have to be to include Oscar in your list over West, Malone, Kobe, Robinson, Dr. J etc.?

Again? Whats your deal? When ever someone brings up Oscar, you immeadiately denounce them.

[Renegar]

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant

3. Everyone else

If Kobe gets one more title he will be slightly ahead of Jordan. If he gets 2 more he will surpass him by a large margin.

[Fatal9]

Well with your silly logic Dominique Wilkins is better than Magic also.
Um, no. Dominique doesn't really have a statistical case over Magic (as Bird did, a big one at that!). Both Bird has comparable teams in terms of talent (Magic had the edge though) so they weren't racking up points on .500 level, 40-50 win teams like Dominique did. Both Bird and Magic had similar awards and accomplishments so you are really exaggerating the facts here. If two players are considered on the same level with one being a better passer while the other being a much much better scorer, I'll give the edge to the scorer.


Again? Whats your deal? When ever someone brings up Oscar, you immeadiately denounce them.
Maybe because he has no business being up there? It's like someone claiming Kobe is top 5 right now when he clearly isn't.

[Disaprine]

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant

3. Everyone else

If Kobe gets one more title he will be tied with Jordan. If he gets 2 more he will surpass him for certain.
obviously :lol

[Niquesports]

Um, no. Dominique doesn't really have a statistical case over Magic (as Bird did, a big one at that!). Both Bird has comparable teams in terms of talent (Magic had the edge though) so they weren't racking up points on .500 level, 40-50 win teams like Dominique did. Both Bird and Magic had similar awards and accomplishments so you are really exaggerating the facts here. If two players are considered on the same level with one being a better passer while the other being a much much better scorer, I'll give the edge to the scorer.


Maybe because he has no business being up there? It's like someone claiming Kobe is top 5 right now when he clearly isn't.


Bird wasnt a "much Much" better scorer than Magic scoring was just his role on the Celtics they had Tiny and DJ to run the offense running the offense keeping everyone in the game Jabbar,Worthy,Scott,Wilks Cooper ect.. and then when need something called clutch Magic took over I'll take the player that won more consistant and beat the other more often especially when there support was equal yet Magic was able to step up more often than Bird.

Question why doesnt Oscar deserve to get mentioned as well as Elgin.

[Butters]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Larry Bird
4.Magic
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Shaq
7. Bill russel
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10.Jerry West

[Lamar Doom]

lists like this that span multiple generations and force you to compare the "dominance" of players like Shaq and Jordan are for morons, no surprise Bruceblitz made it, his only real agenda is to disclude Kobe. It's extra special because he didn't see half the list play basketball


"the true 100% legit" gets a snicker

[bruceblitz]

MICHAEL JORDAN
6 finals MVP's, 5 league MVP's, 10 scoring titles (6 while shooting over 50%), steals title, Defensive player of the year award, highest PPG in NBA history for the regular season (30.12) and playoffs (33.45). Averaged 31.5ppg and 51.5% shooting as a Chicago Bull against fierce defenses. Michael topped out at 37ppg in 1986-87, his best all around season looked like this: 32.5ppg - 8reb - 8ast - 2.9stl - .8blk on an amazing 54% shooting in 1988-89, Jordan had 5 seasons over 32 points per game. Jordan averaged 33.45ppg, 6.4reb, 5.7ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs for his career. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor. In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, a record which has never been threatened. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards.


KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR
6 MVP awards, won championships with both Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson, member of 6 championship teams, 2 Finals MVP's, 2 time scoring champ, 19 time all-star, all time NBA leading scorer for total points, 34.8ppg career high in the 71-72 season (also averaged 4.6 assists and 16.6 rebounds that year), averaged 5 assists per game or more for 3 seasons, averaged 16 rebounds or more for 4 seasons, made 56% of his shots for his career, the sky hook was UNSTOPPABLE! Kareem averaged 32ppg, 17reb, 4ast, on 50% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

WILT CHAMBERLAIN
7'1" 275lbs of pure beast, had a season averaging 24.3ppg, 23.8reb, 8.6ast in 1967-68, averaged over 20 rebounds per game for 11 seasons of his career, peaked out at 27.2 rebounds per game in 1960-61 while scoring 38.4ppg, averaged 50.4ppg on 50.6% shooting in the 1961-62 season, averaged 30.10 for his career on 54% shooting, made 72.7 of his shots in his final season in the NBA, his skill-set was amazing, featuring a fadeaway that was unstoppable along with his power moves in the post. The NBA did not record steals and blocks in that era. Wilt also won 7 scoring titles. Wilt averaged 35ppg, 25reb, 3ast, on 49% shooting in the playoffs in his prime.

MAGIC JOHNSON
6'9" 255lbs or pure all around greatness, won 3 finals MVP's, 5 time NBA champ, 3 time NBA MVP, Averaged 18.6ppg 9.5ast 9.6reb per game in 1981-82(closest to Oscar Robertson's season of averaging a triple double, topped out at 23.9ppg, Magic was not a pure scorer but he was a great team basketball player, Magic Johnson averaged 3.4stl per game in 1980-81, Magic's season high for assists per game was 13.1ast per in 1983-84, Magic made 52% of his shots for his career, finishing with 19.5ppg 11.2ast and 7.2reb per game for his career. Magic averaged 19.5ppg, 7.7reb, 12.3ast on 50.6% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

LARRY BIRD
Larry Bird was the second greatest clutch player in NBA history next to Michael Jordan, 6'9" 220lbs of pure heart, what Larry lacked in athleticism he made up for it with pure hustle and determination, one of the most unorthodoxed scorers of all time Larry showed us all what it meant to grind out wins, Larry was able to up-stage some of the most athletic players in NBA history like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Dominique Wilkins and many many more. Many would argue that 1986-87 was Larry's best season, Larry averaged 28.1ppg 9.2reb and 7.6ast per game in 1986-87, Larry shot an amazing 37.6% from 3 point land for his career, made 49.6% of his shots, and Larry finished with 24.3ppg 10.0reb 6.3ast 1.7stl and .8blk per game for his entire career which is a staggering collection of team basketball production. Larry also won 2 finals MVP's, and 3 league MVP's. Larry averaged 23.8ppg, 10.3reb, 6.5ast on 47.2% shooting in the playoffs for his career.

BILL RUSSELL
Bill Russell was the greatest hustle player in NBA history, Bill Russell's scoring left a little to be desired and he wasn't a pure scorer, Bill Russell was a defensive legend and most likely the greatest defensive presence in NBA history. He was the "Wilt stopper". The NBA didn't provide steals and blocks stats back in Bill's career or his dominance on the defensive end of the court would show up in his production. Bill Russell averaged over 20 rebounds per game 10 times in his career, Bill Russell was a great passer out of double teams and he averaged over 5 assists per game twice in his career. Bill Russell was a 5 time league MVP, and a staggering 11 time NBA champion as the anchor of the legendary Celtics of the late 50's and 60's. Bill Russell finished with 15.1ppg 22.5reb 4.3ast on 44% shooting for his career. Russell averaged 20ppg, 26reb, 47%fg and 4ast per game in his prime during the playoffs.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON
Hakeem was arguably the most skilled center of all time in NBA history. His post moves, his ability to handle the rock and his athleticism are unmatched to this point by other NBA centers from any era. Hakeem racked up honor after honor in his NBA career. Hakeem was the NBA Finals MVP 2 times, Hakeem was the League MVP once, he would have had more MVP's but he was over-shadowed by the great Michael Air Jordan. Hakeem was the only player in NBA history to win an NBA League MVP, Defensive player of the year and NBA finals MVP in the same year. Hakeem peaked out just shy of 28 points per game, his peak rebound production was 14 rebounds per game and he had 6 years over 3 assists per game, and 9 years over 3 blocks per game peaking out at 4.6 blocks per game in the 1989-90 season. Hakeem had 5 years over 2 steals per game as well, and he ended his career as a 51.2% shooter, 3.1blk, 1.7stl, 11.1reb, 21.8ppg. Hakeem raised his level of play in the playoffs and he ended his playoff career as a 52.8% shooter, with 11.2reb, 3.2ast 25.9ppg in the playoffs.


OSCAR ROBERTSON
Oscar Robertson is quite honestly the greatest all around player the game has seen. In Oscar Robertson's second year in the NBA he averaged 30.8ppg, 12.reb, 11.4ast, as he averaged a triple double for an entire season, not even the great Larry Bird or Magic Johnson could do that.Oscar won a league MVP in 1964 on 47.8% shooting. Oscar had a silky smooth jumper/fadeaway and his post game is revered as the best in the history of the sport, this side of Michael Jordan. Oscar Robertson had 4 seasons at or over 11 assists per game. Oscar also had 3 seasons over 10 rebounds per game. Oscar closed out his career averaging 25.7ppg, 9.5ast, 7.5reb, and he was a 48.5% shooter for his career. Oscar Robertson didn't play on the greatest teams so his playoff numbers are a little skewed, A lot of his playoff numbers were amassed at the end of his career. In his prime Oscar averaged nearly 30 points per game on 47% shooting with nearly 9 rebounds and 10 assists per game in the playoffs during his prime.

SHAQ O'NEAL
The most dominant center in NBA Finals history was Shaq O'Neal as a Laker. Shaq O'Neal has been the most physically imposing center in the history of the game this side of Wilt Chamberlain. By his second year in the league Shaq was averaging over 29 points per game and he peaked out at 29.7ppg. Shaq has 5 years over 3 assists per game and has 13 years over 10 rebounds per game, Shaq also has been a great shot blocker having 12 years over 2 blocks per game. Shaq so far in his career has averaged 24.9ppg, 11.3reb, 2.6ast, 2.4blk on an amazing 58.1% shooting. He's not a pure shooter but his ability to dominate in the post helped create high % shot attempts for Shaq. Shaq always rose his level of play in the playoffs when he was a Laker, Shaq averaged over 15 rebounds twice in the playoffs, and over 30 points per game 3 times in the playoffs, the decline at the end of Shaq's career have skewed his playoff production a bit giving him 25.2ppg, 12.1reb, and 2.8ast on 50.1% shooting in the playoffs for his career. Shaq's production in the NBA Finals as a Laker looked like this: vs Indiana Pacers 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG, vs Philadelphia Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG, vs New Jersey Nets Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG, vs Detroit 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG. Shaq also has 3 finals MVP and a league MVP in his trophy case.

TIM DUNCAN
Tim Duncan is known for his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. In a similar fashion to Kevin McHale from the 80's, Duncan has been able to dominate teams with his fundamental approach to the game of basketball. He's not physically imposing and he's not a great athlete but his ability to be a great thinker and executor of his fundamentals is what sets him apart from most NBA players in the history of the game. Tim Duncan's career numbers are staggering averaging 21.5ppg, 11.8reb, 3.2ast, 2.4blk on 50.8% shooting. Duncan peaked out at 25.5ppg, he has 5 seasons over 12reb per, and 10 seasons over 2blk per. Tim Duncan raises hes level of play in the playoffs averaging 23.4ppg, 12.7, 3.5ast on 50.1% shooting for his career in the playoffs so far. Duncan has 3 Finals MVP's and 2 league MVP's in his trophy case.
Yeah, disagree with history.

[bruceblitz]

lists like this that span multiple generations and force you to compare the "dominance" of players like Shaq and Jordan are for morons, no surprise Bruceblitz made it, his only real agenda is to disclude Kobe. It's extra special because he didn't see half the list play basketball


"the true 100% legit" gets a snicker
Unlike you, I've spent years upon years upon years, and countless hours studying and learning the history of one of my favorite sports.

It's funny, you say I have an agenda:

Here's the real agenda, leap frog Kobe over everyone. That's the agenda I see on this retarded message board every f'ing day. People like fatal9 live on here, roundballrock, they puke all over the history of the NBA while true fans like myself hold the legacies of the greats to their proper respective levels of greatness.

You can snicker, you can hate me, I don't give a damn, call it arrogant, I know more about the history of the game than ANY Kobe Bryant apostle.

You all suck. (Kobe apostles).
Don't respond, I don't care what you say from this point on. I'm gonna use my youtube platform to do something earth shattering in the off-season. You will see.... (I know you all watch)...

[Lamar Doom]

"Unlike you, I've spent years upon years upon years, and countless hours studying and learning the history of one of my favorite sports."


what a joke. you are a dillusional tool. you talk about players you've never seen play. you don't watch enough basketball, you focus on rhetoric, you don't offer any real insight, you're just a copy+paster. you're a 30 something wannabe purist and a f*ck head.

[Sir Charles]

EFF, PER and Statsticl +/- = REAL IMPACT

Not Popularity Contests
Not Bull MVP/All NBA Team Poularity Opinion Crap
Not Off the Court Activities Role Model Opinion or Like That Personality Better Crap
Not Championships, Championships = Teams :hammerhead: etc Crap!

Indicate the Following:

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 LeBron James 27.20 6
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18
14 Shaquille O'neal 27.11 17
15 Jerry West 27.10 14
16 David Robinson 26.98 14
17 Karl Malone 26.94 19
18 Kevin Garnett 26.80 14
19 Tim Duncan 26.39 12
20 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14

21 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
22 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
23 Chris Paul 25.31 4
24 Bob Lanier 25.29 14
25 Bob McAdoo 24.47 14
26 Dirk Nowitzki 24.34 11
27 Dwyane Wade 24.22 6
28 Moses Malone 24.14 19
29 Willis Reed 24.06 10
30 Elvin Hayes 24.04 16

31 Rick Barry 23.98 10
32 Elton Brand 23.96 10
33 Nate Thurmond 23.73 14
34 Chris Webber 23.72 15
35 Wes Unseld 23.70 13
36 Billy Cunningham 23.51 9
37 Patrick Ewing 23.41 17
38 Julius Erving 23.35 11
39 Neil Johnston 23.23 8
40 Dwight Howard 23.18 5

41 Brad Daugherty 23.10 8
42 Shawn Marion 22.99 10
43 Artis Gilmore 22.99 12
44 Amare Stoudemire 22.85 7
45 Walt Frazier 22.74 13
46 Gus Johnson 22.63 9
47 Adrian Dantley 22.60 15
48 Kobe Bryant 22.58 13
49 Clyde Drexler 22.42 15
50 Pau Gasol 22.33 8
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating (Season)

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 26.87
3. LeBron James 26.20
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Bob Pettit* 25.37
7. Tim Duncan 25.05
8. Neil Johnston* 24.66
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58

11. Magic Johnson* 24.11
12. Karl Malone 23.90
13. Dirk Nowitzki 23.84
14. Kevin Garnett 23.81
15. Kobe Bryant 23.63
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Julius Erving* 23.57
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Oscar Robertson* 23.17
20. Tracy McGrady 23.07

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

21. Yao Ming 23.03
22. Jerry West* 22.90
23. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
24. Elton Brand 22.38
25. Moses Malone* 22.00
26. Dolph Schayes* 21.93
27. John Stockton* 21.83
28. Pau Gasol 21.77
29. Bob Lanier* 21.69
30. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67

31. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
32. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
33. Harry Gallatin* 21.44
34. Vince Carter 21.41
35. Artis Gilmore 21.40
36. George Gervin* 21.38
37. Dan Issel* 21.37
38. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
39. Allen Iverson 21.10
40. Clyde Drexler* 21.07

41. Rick Barry* 21.04
42. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
43. Paul Pierce 21.00
44. Chris Webber 20.94
45. John Drew 20.74
46. Gilbert Arenas 20.74
47. Bob McAdoo* 20.73
48. Kevin Johnson 20.70
49. Chris Bosh 20.69
50. George Yardley* 20.52


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

Career Playoffs Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating (Play-Offs)

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.47
4. LeBron James 26.14
5. Tim Duncan 26.07
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Tracy McGrady 24.66
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.43
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 23.55

11. Dolph Schayes* 23.24
12. Kevin Garnett 23.19
13. Jerry West* 23.07
14. David Robinson* 23.03
15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
16. Magic Johnson* 22.95
17. Wilt Chamberlain* 22.76
18. Bob Pettit* 22.58
19. Baron Davis 22.19
20. Julius Erving* 22.05

21. Elgin Baylor* 21.88
22. Rick Barry* 21.79
23. Moses Malone* 21.56
24. Kobe Bryant 21.50
25. Larry Bird* 21.40
26. Vince Carter 21.40
27. Allen Iverson 21.23
28. George Gervin* 21.17
29. Karl Malone 21.12
30. Oscar Robertson* 20.98

31. Bob Lanier* 20.81
32. Pau Gasol 20.70
33. George Yardley* 20.69
34. Cliff Hagan* 20.62
35. Shawn Kemp 20.55
36. Gus Williams 20.40
37. Artis Gilmore 20.36
38. Manu Ginobili 20.35
39. Paul Arizin* 20.31
40. Dan Issel* 20.06

41. Alex English* 19.92
42. Walter Davis 19.91
43. John Stockton* 19.84
44. Walt Frazier* 19.84
45. Isiah Thomas* 19.80
46. Anfernee Hardaway 19.76
47. Clyde Lovellette* 19.73
48. George McGinnis 19.73
49. Clyde Drexler* 19.71
50. Chauncey Billups 19.64

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1415

Statistical +/-

Player Pos G Min SPM
---------------+--+----------+--------+------
michaeljordan G 1072 41013 12.85
wiltchamberlain C 1045 47859 11.59
davidrobinson C 987 34272 10.79
lebronjames F 444 18083 10.00
charlesbarkley F 1073 39330 9.03
k.abdul-jabbar C 1560 57446 9.01
magicjohnson G 906 33245 8.82
larrybird F 897 34443 8.81
juliuserving F 1243 45227 8.57
shaquilleo'neal C 1089 39103 8.21
bobpettit F 792 30690 7.87
clydedrexler G 1086 37537 7.79
oscarrobertson G 1040 43886 7.75
hakeemolajuwon C 1238 44222 7.70
elginbaylor F 846 33863 7.59
karlmalone F 1476 54852 7.50
andreikirilenko F 533 16671 7.37
timduncan F 877 32481 7.30
tracymcgrady F 784 27463 7.12
kevingarnett F 1051 39570 6.91

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

boblanier C 959 32103 6.24
kobebryant G 921 33584 6.22
jerrywest G 932 36571 6.17
bobbyjones F 941 25728 6.16
conniehawkins F 616 22232 6.08
dirknowitzki F 812 29663 5.97
neiljohnston C 516 18298 5.94
vincecarter G 752 28333 5.88
billrussell C 963 40726 5.85
larrynance F 920 30697 5.74
dolphschayes F 866 29800 5.65
johnstockton G 1504 47764 5.63
rickbarry F 1020 38153 5.56
waltfrazier G 825 30965 5.45
paulpierce F 788 29570 5.30
artisgilmore C 1329 47150 5.16
docrivers G 864 23567 5.16
alvinrobertson G 779 24669 5.13
d.wilkins F 1074 38113 5.10
billycunningham F 770 26844 5.09
scottiepippen F 1178 41069 4.97
booutlaw F 914 20750 4.91
eltonbrand F 643 24421 4.87
gilbertarenas G 431 16115 4.80
waltbellamy C 1043 38940 4.72
chriswebber F 831 30847 4.71
marquesjohnson F 691 23694 4.65
sidneymoncrief G 767 23150 4.60
rogerbrown F 605 21454 4.57
wesunseld C 984 35832 4.56

As some wise man on this forum would say :pimp:

*Sorry if i make spelling mistakes but....

Thou Shall Not Have The Indicency To Disagree With Clear Evidence

Of Statistical Broken Down: Impact, All Around Game, Efficiency Per Minute, Efficiency Per Game/Season/Career....

Only Thy Blind Man Loveth of Hype-Media-Votings-Polls Opinions.

Break Down Thy Own Conclusions...

After Finding Coindicently.... that Top 10-20-30-40-50 etc Greatest Players of All Time Are Eveidenced In Cold Paper.

:violin: :sleeping

[giantgonzolez]

Moses Malone and Tim Duncan are both above Shaq. How many top 50 players has Tim Duncan played with? Also, Moses Malone has averaged over 30ppg and 15rpg over an entire season somethat that's INCOMPREHENSIBLE for Shaq.

[D-Rose]

Moses Malone and Tim Duncan are both above Shaq. How many top 50 players has Tim Duncan played with? Also, Moses Malone has averaged over 30ppg and 15rpg over an entire season somethat that's INCOMPREHENSIBLE for Shaq.
stats aren't what people only look at? :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

[CB4GOATPF]

1-Jordan
2-Wilt
3-Kareem
4-Shaq
5-Hakeem
6-Robinson
7-Barkley
8-Duncan
9-Bird (Played with Too Many All Stars so PER is Below Reality)
10-Magic (Played with Too Many All Stars so PER is Below Reality)

-----------
Bob Pettit
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Dr J
Big 0
Jerry West

In The Top 16

-------------

[HighFlyer23]

1-Jordan
2-Wilt
3-Kareem
4-Shaq
5-Hakeem
6-Robinson
7-Barkley
8-Duncan
9-Bird (Played with Too Many All Stars so PER is Below Reality)
10-Magic (Played with Too Many All Stars so PER is Below Reality)

-----------
Bob Pettit
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Dr J
Big 0
Jerry West

In The Top 16

-------------

one of a kind list :lol

[CB4GOATPF]

one of a kind list :lol

The List of Reality

Not Likes of Style
Not Votings
Not Opinions
Not Polls

Efficiency Total, Per Minute Efficiency and Statistical Plus/Minus

The Only Thing That is Missing is Comparing The Level of Players and Teams Each Player Had in Their Times (Both Offensively and Defensively ofcourse, D) In Their Times and The Teams They Faced (The Level of Offensive and Defensive Teams Players They Faced)

That Would Be Even More Exact

[KenneBell]

1-Jordan
2-Wilt
3-Kareem
4-Shaq
5-Hakeem
6-Robinson
7-Barkley
8-Duncan
9-Bird (Played with Too Many All Stars so PER is Below Reality)
10-Magic (Played with Too Many All Stars so PER is Below Reality)

-----------
Bob Pettit
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Dr J
Big 0
Jerry West

In The Top 16

-------------
:roll:

[ZaaaaaH]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

Good list but I switch Shaq with Bird

[che guevara]

Barkley ahead of Bird and Magic... never thought I would see that.

One question - why do so many people have Hakeem over Shaq? I really don't understand that at all. He won more titles with a better peak and better longevity.

My list (very subjective/changes easily)

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Larry Bird
4. Magic Johnson
5. Shaq
6. Wilt Chaimberlain
7. Bill Russell
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Moses Malone

Jerry West and Kobe also have good cases to be in the top 10, but I put Moses at 10th because he has 3 MVPs and a title as a team's best player. Oscar didn't have enough team success in my opinion, and neither did Wilt, but it's really hard to judge players that I've seen little of. I can only go by stats/accomplishments and the little footage that is available.

[HighFlyer23]

Might as well ...

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Shaq/Hakeem
7. Magic
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Kobe