Pippen vs. Jordan: Who was the better defensive player?

[Stringer Bell]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/682/968/playoff_jordan61598a_display_image.jpg?1296518760

http://www.pattishomepage.com/hoops/read/defense.jpg

http://marvblues.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/p1_pippen_getty.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/35/95/a3/3595a362755880cf8ecbd114b0722966.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lze5uy8z95I/TNKo_Pk3hxI/AAAAAAAABz8/8Ia5skRkxgk/s1600/1039-231x300.jpg

[Maniak]

Diggin' those Pippen pics :lol

Personally, im going to go with Pippen.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Defensive prime vs. prime ('88-'93 for MJ and '92-'97 for Pip) I'd probably take Jordan by a hair, but would have no problem with anyone choosing Pippen.

They both excelled at most every area of defense (Pippen's only defensive "weakness" was his post D; weakness is in quotes because it wasn't a true weakness, but he wasn't nearly as good there as in every other defensive area). And they each did certain things better defensively than the other. Very, very tough choice.

EDIT: Haha, looks like Pip's grabbing a handful of tittay in that last pic. :oldlol:

[Scott Pippen]

Versatility: Pippen
Roaming the court: Jordan
On Ball (in physical prime): Honestly to me the same.

I have them very close. No wrong answer :applause:

[nnn123]

Before 93: Jordan
After 93: Pippen

[CasterL]

damm money talks, i hope pippen runied that bish

[The Joker]

I'd take Pippen simply because he's bigger which makes him more versatile on defense.

[DuMa]

pippen. he can guard 4 positions and do them well. gives you greater flexibility on how to run your lineup.but if i was looking for the best man to man defender bar none have to pick mike

[Biddy77]

a lot of good responses in this thread.

if better = more versatile, pippen is your guy.
if better = a better ball-pressuring man-to-man defender, jordan.

now... all around, i'm going to take pippen. he was a better help defender in terms of rotation to help contest scores in the paint. he was nearly (but not quite) equal to mike in terms of his ability to cut off passing lanes. on the other hand, mike was the best 'double' defender i've ever seen. if you had a guy posting up, jordan was an absolute monster as the 'front' defender if the guy had a big playing underneath. he got a ton of steals in his career by double-teaming post players and stripping them.

on the ball, i like pippen better for position defense and containment--turning guys around when they tried to penetrate, making them take wide angles on drives, etc... but if i'm trying to pressure the ball and harass a handler/keep them worried about swipes/steals, mike is the guy.



having both guys, you would see mike spend a lot of time on guys who were gamblers, or not top-flight ball handlers. yes, he was plenty capable of covering guys like stockton or mark price who were very good at protecting the ball, but turning him loose to go after a shaky ball handler was just not f**king fair.

i'd use pippen on a more conservative guy, and wind up disrupting the team's entire offense by making them play with such bad penetrating and passing angles, as well as making them require so much space to shoot over pippen (great height, length, and leaping ability--as well as quickness for a lot of years). with that going on, mike getting a ton of steals in the passing lanes, and is absolute hell for your secondary ball handler.

god, i miss watching those guys play...

[dyna]

Better defender Jordan
More versatile defender Pippen
:pimp:

[1987_Lakers]

I'd say Pippen was the better defender.

[Thunderstruck]

They both are among the greatest defensive players of all time, but I'll take Pippin. He doesn't get enough credit for the role he played on those teams.

[NBASTATMAN]

Defensive prime vs. prime ('88-'93 for MJ and '92-'97 for Pip) I'd probably take Jordan by a hair, but would have no problem with anyone choosing Pippen.

They both excelled at most every area of defense (Pippen's only defensive "weakness" was his post D; weakness is in quotes because it wasn't a true weakness, but he wasn't nearly as good there as in every other defensive area). And they each did certain things better defensively than the other. Very, very tough choice.

EDIT: Haha, looks like Pip's grabbing a handful of tittay in that last pic. :oldlol:



I would take MJ on the ball and against smaller quicker players and I would take Pippen as a better team defender and better against the small forwards. Pippen wasn't the best on the ball defender but his arm length was great for team defense and help defense. Both were the best I have seen in their respective positions by far...

[NBASTATMAN]

Better defender Jordan
More versatile defender Pippen
:pimp:


I would have to say this is the best answer so far.. Mj was better on the ball but Pippen could defend any position on the floor... Both great...

[NBASTATMAN]

Better defender Jordan
More versatile defender Pippen
:pimp:


I would have to say this is the best answer so far.. Mj was better on the ball but Pippen could defend any position on the floor... Both great...

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordan including impact and everything by a slight hair.

[Da_Realist]

a lot of good responses in this thread.

if better = more versatile, pippen is your guy.
if better = a better ball-pressuring man-to-man defender, jordan.

now... all around, i'm going to take pippen. he was a better help defender in terms of rotation to help contest scores in the paint. he was nearly (but not quite) equal to mike in terms of his ability to cut off passing lanes. on the other hand, mike was the best 'double' defender i've ever seen. if you had a guy posting up, jordan was an absolute monster as the 'front' defender if the guy had a big playing underneath. he got a ton of steals in his career by double-teaming post players and stripping them.

on the ball, i like pippen better for position defense and containment--turning guys around when they tried to penetrate, making them take wide angles on drives, etc... but if i'm trying to pressure the ball and harass a handler/keep them worried about swipes/steals, mike is the guy.



having both guys, you would see mike spend a lot of time on guys who were gamblers, or not top-flight ball handlers. yes, he was plenty capable of covering guys like stockton or mark price who were very good at protecting the ball, but turning him loose to go after a shaky ball handler was just not f**king fair.

i'd use pippen on a more conservative guy, and wind up disrupting the team's entire offense by making them play with such bad penetrating and passing angles, as well as making them require so much space to shoot over pippen (great height, length, and leaping ability--as well as quickness for a lot of years). with that going on, mike getting a ton of steals in the passing lanes, and is absolute hell for your secondary ball handler.

god, i miss watching those guys play...

Pretty good answer. I'll agree to this. Also, I'd like to hear where Gary Payton fits in. Jordan, Pippen and Payton are the 3 best perimeter defenders I've seen, imo. Throw Olajuwon in there (I don't care who is at the 4) and no one's gonna beat that team.

[Da_Realist]

Before 93: Jordan
After 93: Pippen

Coaches voted Jordan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6KbHMqVB3s) the best defensive player in 1993

[Rolando]

Pretty good answer. I'll agree to this. Also, I'd like to hear where Gary Payton fits in. Jordan, Pippen and Payton are the 3 best perimeter defenders I've seen, imo. Throw Olajuwon in there (I don't care who is at the 4) and no one's gonna beat that team.

Rodman or Garnett at the 4.

[Bigsmoke]

Pippen because he can guard any position.

[Manute for Ever!]

damm money talks, i hope pippen runied that bish

I think it's his wife

[OldSchoolBBall]

Coaches voted Jordan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6KbHMqVB3s) the best defensive player in 1993

Don't the coaches vote for DPOY now, or does the media still do it like they did in 1993? I know one of them (DPOY or first team defense) is voted for by the coaches, but I forget which. I'd love to see the coach's votes for other years. Jordan finished second in media DPOY voting that year and first by a significant margin in coach's voting.

I've seen this (about Jordan being voted #1 by the coaches) mentioned during another game broadcast as well.

[pierce2008mvp]

Don't the coaches vote for DPOY now, or does the media still do it like they did in 1993? I know one of them (DPOY or first team defense) is voted for by the coaches, but I forget which. I'd love to see the coach's votes for other years. Jordan finished second in media DPOY voting that year and first by a significant margin in coach's voting.

I've seen this (about Jordan being voted #1 by the coaches) mentioned during another game broadcast as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16D4DCduxVA&mode=related&search=

At the 1:22-1:32 mark it mentions it.

[Roundball_Rock]

They both are among the greatest defensive players of all time, but I'll take Pippin. He doesn't get enough credit for the role he played on those teams.

I agree. Here is someone who is the GOAT defensive SF and probably the GOAT perimeter defender. On top of that he could give you, when healthy, 21-22 ppg even despite playing with someone who always led the league in shots taken (this is not a knock against MJ. It is obvious why the GOATtook so many shots but my point is if Pippen did not play alongside Jordan he would have more shots and score more points. I think Pippen was capable of being a 25 ppg scorer in his prime) and gave you 8-9 rebounds a game (his rpg declined during the second title run but that was because Rodman was hauling so many in. Pippen averaged 7.7, 7.7, 8.7, and 8.1 in the years before Rodman joined the Bulls), and on top of all this did an excellent job running the offense. By virtue of being a 6'7" SF bringing the ball up he inherently created mismatch problems. Despite all of this, some people act as if Scottie was nothing more than a glorified Pau Gasol.

Regarding the topic, I give Pippen the edge because he could guard 4 positions. He wasn't much bigger than Jordan by the way. He was only 1 inch taller and 10-15 pounds heavier.

Yeah, that woman is his wife. She is a former model. Good for Scottie! Pippen is among the best rags to riches stories in sports.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Regarding the topic, I give Pippen the edge because he could guard 4 positions. He wasn't much bigger than Jordan by the way. He was only 1 inch taller and 10-15 pounds heavier.

Pippen was 1.5" taller at the very least, and more likely 1.75". You can see it when they stand next to each other.

[Da_Realist]

Don't the coaches vote for DPOY now, or does the media still do it like they did in 1993? I know one of them (DPOY or first team defense) is voted for by the coaches, but I forget which. I'd love to see the coach's votes for other years. Jordan finished second in media DPOY voting that year and first by a significant margin in coach's voting.

I've seen this (about Jordan being voted #1 by the coaches) mentioned during another game broadcast as well.

I just found out that Jordan had 200 steals and 100 blocks in the 86-87 season and didn't even get 2nd team honors on the all-defensive team! :eek:

Hard to imagine a guy with so many accolades was robbed of a few more. :wtf:

[DonDadda59]

On the Ball: Jordan slightly, both great
Post: Pippen because of his size
Roaming/Filling Passing Lanes: Jordan
Help: Pippen, may be the best ever; Jordan was no slouch in this department
Versatility: Easily Pippen

Verdict: :confusedshrug: it's a toss up, but like many have said pre '93 it was Jordan, post it was Pippen.

On another related note, video of Jordan's defensive highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4gigN2zMU4

Couldn't find a solely defensive highlight reel for Scottie, which is a shame.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I just found out that Jordan had 200 steals and 100 blocks in the 86-87 season and didn't even get 2nd team honors on the all-defensive team! :eek:

Hard to imagine a guy with so many accolades was robbed of a few more. :wtf:

Yeah, he was seriously robbed in 1987.


On the Ball: Jordan slightly, both great
Post: Pippen because of his size
Roaming/Filling Passing Lanes: Jordan
Help: Pippen, may be the best ever; Jordan was no slouch in this department
Versatility: Easily Pippen

Verdict: it's a toss up, but like many have said pre '93 it was Jordan, post it was Pippen.

I agree with your verdict (their defensive primes didn't overlap anyway, with the possible exception of '92 and '93), but not some of the specifics. Jordan was easily a better post defender than Pippen (in fact, that was Pippen's weakest defensive area). Jordan was also a better help defender, but Pippen a better team defender (subtle difference; both were elite in both areas, however).

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is arguably the greatest Bulls defensive moment. It is mainly Pippen but MJ and Grant pitched in as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64&feature=PlayList&p=9851DD99B6AC85DE&index=1

[Da_Realist]

Here is arguably the greatest Bulls defensive moment. It is mainly Pippen but MJ and Grant pitched in as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64&feature=PlayList&p=9851DD99B6AC85DE&index=1

This is my favorite all-time Bulls moment so let me speak on this. This was a TEAM defensive effort. Pippen gets the lion's share of the credit, but Jordan and Grant were just as important.

At 18 secs, Smith goes in to shoot a layup but is blocked by Grant. This block(and his subsequent attempted block) allows Jordan to inch closer to Smith and bother his next shot. When Smith grabs the ball and goes for another shot, Jordan strips him clean while almost falling out of bounds. Jordan's strip moved Smith under the basket (so that he can retrieve the ball again) and allowed Pippen to sneak in and position himself behind Smith. Now Smith has to jump backwards to shoot the layup with Pippen right there. :applause: 2 attempts, 2 blocks by Pippen.

Grant's block allowed Jordan time to position himself for the steal and Jordan's steal moved Smith under the basket and gave Pippen a chance to position himself perfectly for the two blocks.

I still get goosebumps watching this play because it decided the series. Great play by the dobermans. :applause:

[Scott Pippen]

^ :applause:

And while not as significant in anyway just another simple, but excellent defensive possession like this from the Dobermans.

From 8:11 to 8:23.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQzWCavgF9o

Just little things like this make you miss those guys so much.

[OldSchoolBBall]

^ :applause:

And while not as significant in anyway just another simple, but excellent defensive possession like this from the Dobermans.

From 8:11 to 8:23.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQzWCavgF9o

Just little things like this make you miss those guys so much.

There's a tremendous defensive play by both Pippen and Jordan vs. the Sonics in 1997, I think. They're at Chicago, I know that (I have the game on VHS somewhere in my collection).

Anyway, Payton gets a steal and starts the break with Hawkins and Kemp running. Pippen and Jordan both hustle back. Pippen is measuring Payton the whole way, and Jordan is running down the middle to disrupt any passes (Payton is wide, not in the center of the break). Jordan actually slows up his stride and stutters to cut off a potential pass near the FT line, and then continues forward after Payton commits to a layup. Pippen takes off of one foot, MJ off two feet, and they both pin GP's layup to the glass at the exact same time, with the ball falling out of bounds and the three of them all falling to the ground in a heap. :oldlol: Ridiculous play. I remember Doc Rivers (doing commentary at that time) saying "who do you give that block to?" Jordan and Pippen literally swallowed Payton's layup. I've always wished someone could get this play online (I can't convert VHS).

[Scott Pippen]

^ Yes I have memory of that play, but do not have the video footage. Really there have been countless defensive plays where you saw them make it look maybe not easy all the time, but routine. :bowdown:

[Da_Realist]

^ Yes I have memory of that play, but do not have the video footage. Really there have been countless defensive plays where you saw them make it look maybe not easy all the time, but routine. :bowdown:

I didn't see Norm Van Lier and Jerry Sloan play, but I can't imagine a better defensive perimeter team than the early 90's Bulls. The 88-90 Pistons are a close second.

[Bush4Ever]

I think Pippen's versatility allowed him to be more valuable to overall team defense, compared to Jordan.

But yeah, this is arguably arguing 1a and 1b of all-time perimeter defensive players.

[Stacey King]

I think Pippen's versatility allowed him to be more valuable to overall team defense, compared to Jordan.

But yeah, this is arguably arguing 1a and 1b of all-time perimeter defensive players.

Couldn't agree more.

:cheers:

[phoenix18]

I think Pippen's versatility allowed him to be more valuable to overall team defense, compared to Jordan.

But yeah, this is arguably arguing 1a and 1b of all-time perimeter defensive players.
I actually thought that Payton was just as good a defender. But between these two I would have to go with Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good analysis, Da_Realist! :cheers:

Phoenix Payton was great as well but he was only 6'4". I give Pippen the edge over him because he could guard all perimeter players as well as PF's. Payton's size limited him to guards.

[Scott Pippen]

I can't imagine a better defensive perimeter team than the early 90's Bulls. The 88-90 Pistons are a close second.Especially their full court press. :applause:

[imdaman99]

Here is arguably the greatest Bulls defensive moment. It is mainly Pippen but MJ and Grant pitched in as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64&feature=PlayList&p=9851DD99B6AC85DE&index=1
F*CK you for posting that.

[xtn5021]

Better one on one defender was Jordan.

[White Chocolate]

Pippen was the more versatile of the two, mainly because he was bigger. He could guard positions 1-4. MJ at best could only guard 1-3.

[Toizumi]

Great responses in this thread. :cheers: Jordan was scary when he played on ball defense, but I to go with Pip and his long *ss arms :oldlol: Best defensive player never to win a DPOY award.

[Roundball_Rock]

Best defensive player never to win a DPOY award.

Yup. This is proof that prime Pippen was actually underrated.

[Da_Realist]

Here is arguably the greatest Bulls defensive moment. It is mainly Pippen but MJ and Grant pitched in as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64&feature=PlayList&p=9851DD99B6AC85DE&index=1

Can anyone tell me why Pippen is not credited for the 2 blocks at the end of the game in the stat sheet (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199306020NYK.html)? :wtf:

I wonder if there are other errors on basketball-reference

[KenneBell]

When I was a kid I liked Pip more than Mike. Don't even know why. That is all.

[GP_20]

I actually thought that Payton was just as good a defender. But between these two I would have to go with Pippen.

I would pick the Glove.

[mattevans11]

I would pick the Glove.
:cheers:

me too, such a versitile defender.... would not back down to anyone..... tough little sh*t

[Da_Realist]

Here is arguably the greatest Bulls defensive moment. It is mainly Pippen but MJ and Grant pitched in as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64&feature=PlayList&p=9851DD99B6AC85DE&index=1

Can anyone tell me why Pippen is not credited for the 2 blocks at the end of the game in the stat sheet (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199306020NYK.html)? :wtf:

I wonder if there are other errors on basketball-reference

Anybody else notice errors like this on basketball-reference?

[monkeypox]

It's probably because stats are collected by the home stat team. they may have decided that both times pippin hit the ball before the ball went up or something stupid like that. I hear crap like this happens all the time.

[Da_Realist]

It's probably because stats are collected by the home stat team. they may have decided that both times pippin hit the ball before the ball went up or something stupid like that. I hear crap like this happens all the time.

If true, that calls every stat into question. I remember reading a long time ago that Larry Bird thought Magic was the beneficiary of some inflated assists. Bill Simmons mentioned it in one of his columns fairly recently. I don't want to believe it, though. But it's ridiculous to think that Pippen's most famous defensive plays aren't recognized in the stat sheet.

I'd rather think it's a mistake.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Anybody else notice errors like this on basketball-reference?

Yeah, I've noticed one or two errors in box scores on bball-reference for games I have on tape. It's odd, and it does make you wonder, but there's really nothing you can do either way.

[Da_Realist]

Yeah, I've noticed one or two errors in box scores on bball-reference for games I have on tape. It's odd, and it does make you wonder, but there's really nothing you can do either way.

Mistakes happen. Not usually a big deal but this Pippen error strikes me because the blocks were so important and so visible. It's clear to anyone that those blocks played a big part in deciding one of the NBA's signature games yet they're not recorded? Seems like a major oversight in this case.

[Stringer Bell]

Bump since ppl still seem to be arguing passionately about this.

[Euroleague]

Pippen.

[Dray n Klay]

Outside of maybe handles and dunking there is nothing Jordan did better than Pippen in basketball

[Jasper]

I'd take Pippen simply because he's bigger which makes him more versatile on defense.
He was very versatile, but Jordan liked sneaking up on 5's and stealing the ball.
Pip guarded slashers as well as SF,PG and SG.... he played as well in switch rotations against PF's ------ BUT that era was very physical and he was moved out at times.

[Showtime2001]

Outside of maybe handles and dunking there is nothing Jordan did better than Pippen in basketball
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/13/136085/2479220-1578648373-gw-cl.gif

[Round Mound]

Pippen get real.

[feyki]

Only 88-91 Jordan was better defender than Pippen . Pippen has Rest of the duo's career .

Pippen .

[Asukal]

Jordan but its close. Defending is Pippen's main role so it seems he is better but if you make Jordan solely a defender you will see the difference.

[Lebron23]

Scottie Pippen

[Angel Face]

MJ is the better lockdown defender and is better at disrupting passing lanes, that's why he had so many steals in his career. Pip's the more versatile defender due to his reach. Both can shut down anybody on any given night. Can't go wrong choosing one over the other. They were called the dobermans due to their tenacious defense. I forgot who coined that. Best defensive duo of all time.

[L.Kizzle]

Jordan avg 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks in the same season. Pippen's highest were 2.9 steals and 1.2 blocks, in different seasons. Pippen avg 21 and 16 points in those seasons.

Jordan avg 35 in his 3.2 steal and 1.6 block season.

Jordan is the greater defender.