Are we fans witnessing SIX of the top 15 NBA players of alltime this season?

[TheBynumProject]

when its all said and done duncan, james, wade, paul, bryant, and o'neal will all go down as top 15 alltime players. who says the talent in the NBA today is dominished? fans, remember this era is a treat for us all to be witnessing.

[highwhey]

top 15 of all time?

http://smiliesftw.com/x/huge_roll_eyes.gif

[Al Thornton]

:wtf: Has there ever not been a time with lots of future hall of famers? And no CP3, maybe Lebron, and Wade won't be remembered as top 15 all time at least from what I say right now.

[D-Rose]

I heard some analyst or someone saying exactly this on tv...who was it again?

Wade, Paul, LeBron are not Top 15 yet, if any of them had a severe injury like Penny did, their promising careers would be diminshed.

As of now Shaq, Duncan, Kobe are Top 15 w/o a doubt.

[pete's montreux]

Garnett, anyone?

[TheBynumProject]

duncan and shaq are already top 15 all-time

james and kobe are virtual locks to finish as top 15 players

wade and cp are the biggest question marks, but it isn't out of the question by any means

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

nice post by the OP.
he said, "when its all said and done..."
thus, he is projecting (obviously)

from what I've seen, he may be correct. the only two IFs are Wade and CP3.
if they both keep up their current level of play and remain healthy, then yes, the OP is correct.

[H2whoa]

It's a joke to put CP3 and Wade on that list and not Allen Iverson :no:

[Biddy77]

top 15 is VERY elite company, and i think people are really showing a lack of big picture perspective assuming that wade and cp3 even have a chance of sniffing that level of prestige.

think about all the guys who currently are accepted as the top 10 or 15 in league history...

do people already have such huge hard-ons for those guys that they're going to throw it right out there that we should expect these guys to be better than the guys whose names currently get mentioned in that talk?

shaq and duncan, top 15, no question. kobe is probably top 15-20. lebron stands a good chance of being one of the two best SFs of all time when all is said and done. i'll give you 4 of 6. cp3 and wade, though? seriously?

pull your junk out of the rubber ******. stop this fantasy now. if you let it carry on, all you're going to be left with is a mess to clean up, and a handful of shame.

[Micku]

*coughs*

Well, we are seeing great preformances. Wade, LBJ, CP3, Kobe, Howard, Shaq (old), and Duncan. We have some potiential players too. OJ Mayo and maybe Kevin Durant.

Wade, LBJ and CP3 are pulling out a great stat sesson this year. Those three may end up being really great and could be seen as the NBA top tier players. But it depends on their team. Wade has already won a NBA title, but I feel that he needs to win couple more times again to be remember. LBJ is young, he may go on a dynasty if he is lucky. CP3 is doing good so far, by establishing himself as a great PG. If he is lucky, he'll get a title too. Same goes with Howard.

Great players all around. Enjoy them while you can.

[loot]

It's a joke to put CP3 and Wade on that list and not Allen Iverson :no:

Why? show me Iverson's rings.

[gotbacon23]

whats the difference between this season and, say 1987-88 for example, with michael jordan, magic johnson, larry bird, kareem abdul-jabbar, karl malone, hakeem olajuwon, charles barkley, moses malone all playing. all aren't guaranteed top 15 all-time but all have a case. by the end of their careers, thats a combined 24 MVP awards for 8 players:

abdul-jabbar: 6
michael jordan: 5
moses malone: 3
larry bird: 3
magic johnson: 3
karl malone: 2
hakeem olajuwon: 1
charles barkley: 1

after that season (87-88) they had 14 MVP awards combined

[highwhey]

Why? show me Iverson's rings.
so is wade also better than barkley because wade has a ring? please. cp3=no rings, and there's no certainty that he will win one...

[BankShot]

so is wade also better than barkley because wade has a ring? please. cp3=no rings, and there's no certainty that he will win one...

No, but in comparing Paul and Iverson, CP3's style of play is definitely more conducive to making his teammates better, thus his team and his chances of a title better, than Iverson.

[joshwake]

It's a joke to put CP3 and Wade on that list and not Allen Iverson :no:
Iverson dosn't even make my top 100 of all time. Wade is creeping but Paul has been in the NBA what, 4 years? You guys always jump way ahead of yourselves. Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe are the only ones that can be considered top 15. They have the numbers, the hardware, and the empirical proof when you watch them on the court.

LBJ should easily crack top 15 if not top 5 if he has a long injury free career. But as of now I wouldn't even consider putting him in the top 15.

[swyftdahoe]

O'Neal, Duncan, and maybe Kobe are top 15 players of all-time now.

LeBron.. I think will make it in.
Paul, I dunno.. Wade, I doubt it..

That said, it's going to be about the rings for these latter 3.. And if 2 of the 3 join up, I think they'll definitely help make the case for one another..

[lolwut]

Shaq, Duncan, Kobe should easily be considered top 15 of all time already.

I think Lebron will eventually be considered top 15 of all time, Paul, Garnett, and Wade have a fighting chance.

[Biddy77]

Iverson dosn't even make my top 100 of all time. Wade is creeping but Paul has been in the NBA what, 4 years? You guys always jump way ahead of yourselves. Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe are the only ones that can be considered top 15. They have the numbers, the hardware, and the empirical proof when you watch them on the court.

agreed.


people see big averages and they get these raging hard-ons and think they're seeing some s**t that hasn't been done before. adrian dantley had four consecutive 30+ ppg seasons. 5'10" (generous, btw) Nate Archibald had a 34ppg season... he even led the league in scoring and assists in a season. george "iceman" gervin, david thompson, elgin baylor, rick barry, jerry west, bernard king, bob mcadoo, dominique wilkins... all those guys put up some HUGE scoring averages, and yet, we're supposed to believe that wade and CP3 are going to be better players than those guys over the course of their careers, just because of the few seasons they've been in the nba.

awesome.

[plowking]

I find it hillarious that even without a ring yet Lebron is being touted as the one who will make the top 15 but Wade won't even with their similar statistical careers though Wade being the better playoff performer and the one with the ring.

Wade just keeps on getting under rated.

[joshwake]

agreed.


people see big averages and they get these raging hard-ons and think they're seeing some s**t that hasn't been done before. adrian dantley had four consecutive 30+ ppg seasons. 5'10" (generous, btw) Nate Archibald had a 34ppg season... he even led the league in scoring and assists in a season. george "iceman" gervin, david thompson, elgin baylor, rick barry, jerry west, bernard king, bob mcadoo, dominique wilkins... all those guys put up some HUGE scoring averages, and yet, we're supposed to believe that wade and CP3 are going to be better players than those guys over the course of their careers, just because of the few seasons they've been in the nba.

awesome.
Just for arguments sake Ill give you two shooting guards I saw play quite a bit that I would take over Iverson any day

Jeff Malone 48% fg career
Jeff Hornacek 50% fg career

whats AI at? 42% ... both the other guys have had several seasons over 50%, AI... 0. Iverson is living proof that a selfish guard that shoots a poor % with poor shot selection will be a detriment to your team.

[Biddy77]

Just for arguments sake Ill give you two shooting guards I saw play quite a bit that I would take over Iverson any day

Jeff Malone 48% fg career
Jeff Hornacek 50% fg career

whats AI at? 42% ... both the other guys have had several seasons over 50%, AI... 0. Iverson is living proof that a selfish guard that shoots a poor % with poor shot selection will be a detriment to your team.

how did i end up in an Iverson discussion? i haven't mentioned his name in this thread at all.

PS--gotta love Horny! jeff malone was ridiculously one-dimensional, though. very good scorer, no doubt... and funny to watch at the free throw line (laughing every time as he fell forward and barely avoided lane violations on his own free throws, time after time).

[dnyk1337]

Let's see...

Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Jabbar
Barkley
Duncan
Shaq
Russell
Wilt

Rest you can fill out but I don't see Kobe in there yet, and anybody else for that matter.

[lolwut]

Let's see...

Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Jabbar
Barkley
Duncan
Shaq
Russell
Wilt

Rest you can fill out but I don't see Kobe in there yet, and anybody else for that matter.


Kobe > Barkley, and I love Sir Charles.

also, you only listed 10. You shouldn't be able to list 5 more players better than Kobe Bryant.

[joshwake]

Let's see...

Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Jabbar
Barkley
Duncan
Shaq
Russell
Wilt

Rest you can fill out but I don't see Kobe in there yet, and anybody else for that matter.

yea, but at least you can make an argument for Kobe cuz we have seen most of his career and presumably his peak. Shaq is top 15 imo, and Duncan as well. I think its just stupid to make an argument that any of those other guys are top 15. Yes I feel LeBron will easily be in the top 15 some day, at this point trying to argue him in is just stupid.

So quickly we forget. There have been some damn good NBA players in the past that we have totally forgotten about these days.

[dnyk1337]

Kobe > Barkley, and I love Sir Charles.

also, you only listed 10. You shouldn't be able to list 5 more players better than Kobe Bryant.

I said that the rest you can fill out accordingly. Those last 5 are very arguable imo so I left them out. I just listed the most concrete picks based on my opinion. Kobe does not make that list.

Karl
Moses
Robinson
Isiah
McHale
blah blah blah

[joe]

I find it hillarious that even without a ring yet Lebron is being touted as the one who will make the top 15 but Wade won't even with their similar statistical careers though Wade being the better playoff performer and the one with the ring.

Wade just keeps on getting under rated.


Wade's quite a bit older than Lebron though. I'm not disputing your points, but that's probably why people are citing him as questionable for top-15 status. He has a lot less time at this level than Lebron does.

[1987_Lakers]

It's a joke to put CP3 and Wade on that list and not Allen Iverson :no:


Iverson top 15 all-time player? :oldlol:

[Yung D-Will]

I'm just loling at the fact he puts Cp3 on that list and not Garnett one of the greatest Pf's of all time.:oldlol: If Garnett Dosen't crack the top 15 then Cp3 wont crack the top 30

[Sir Charles]

Just go Look at the BOTH: Top 10 EFF and PER... All Time List....:rolleyes:

Only Shaq and Duncan are found there...out of all these....Lebron will get there...

Garnett...atleast a Top 15-20 of All Time...respect :applause:


Bryant not even close :rolleyes: (Top 5-6 SG of All Time), Paul not even close :rolleyes:...etc not even close... :confusedshrug:

Shaq and Duncan are the Only True Last Dominating Players the last Decade has seen

[jrong]

so is wade also better than barkley because wade has a ring? please. cp3=no rings, and there's no certainty that he will win one...

A Suns blog recently posed the Wade vs. Barkley question, and both bloggers on the site concluded that Wade at peak was better than Barkley at peak. The problem is that Wade has been unable to stay well long often enough to consistently display his peak.

Anyway, replying to the over all question, top fifteen is pushing it quite a bit. If your thread had asked if they would all end up being top fifty, then I think most people would agree that that was pretty likely.

[Godfather]

If Wade continues playing at the level he is at for 3 more years then yes...

[Godfather]

Just go Look at the BOTH: Top 10 EFF and PER... All Time List....:rolleyes:

Only Shaq and Duncan are found there...out of all these....Lebron will get there...

Garnett...atleast a Top 15-20 of All Time...respect :applause:


Bryant not even close :rolleyes: (Top 5-6 SG of All Time), Paul not even close :rolleyes:...etc not even close... :confusedshrug:

Shaq and Duncan are the Only True Last Dominating Players the last Decade has seen

On your Paul comment...the creator of PER himself stated Paul was headed for the highest PG per ever, surpassing Magic so I don't know what you are trying to talk about.

[stephanieg]

Ranking? WEEE

Top 15? There are too many good big guys clogging it up for some of these smaller guys to make it. Most people put Shaq/Duncan in their top 10 though (Shaq sometimes top 5) but I dunno why people would laugh at these guys being ranked extremely favorably.

KG - I dunno why so many people want to compare him to Barkley but he's way up there. The problem is that the majority of his career was utterly wasted. Put up insane numbers. Nice playoff games. Last year was Boston's leading scorer and rebounder in the playoffs. And fourth quarter scorer.

Wade - where's West and Drexler on your list? He's going to be around them.

Kobe - see Wade

LeBron - some poor playoff numbers hit him recently but regular season + some famous moments (Detroit, game 7 vs. Boston) overcomes that for now unless he keeps sucking horribly. If he wins at least once minimum is Dr. J rank I bet is what most people would do. So where do you put him?

CP3 - may end up being considered a top pg of all time after Magic if he gets any hardware (I don't think many are aware how dominant he is right now -- remember his team is one of the slowest of all time). Problem is I don't think he'll get any titles. I bet he regrets signing that extension.

[Sir Charles]

A Suns blog recently posed the Wade vs. Barkley question, and both bloggers on the site concluded that Wade at peak was better than Barkley at peak. The problem is that Wade has been unable to stay well long often enough to consistently display his peak.
Anyway, replying to the over all question, top fifteen is pushing it quite a bit. If your thread had asked if they would all end up being top fifty, then I think most people would agree that that was pretty likely.

Please.....:hammerhead: :banghead: :violin: :rolleyes:

[omarnyc]

when its all said and done duncan, james, wade, paul, bryant, and o'neal will all go down as top 15 alltime players. who says the talent in the NBA today is dominished? fans, remember this era is a treat for us all to be witnessing.

it will take alot to knock...jordan,magic,bird,wilt,hakeem,barkley,west ,russell,isiah,kareem,oscar out of the top15, and what about guys like malone, stockton, drexler,ewing,ect. shaq and duncan are all-time greats but i think we sometimes get caught up in the moment and wanna put current players at all-time levels way to early.

[Sir Charles]

On your Paul comment...the creator of PER himself stated Paul was headed for the highest PG per ever, surpassing Magic so I don't know what you are trying to talk about.

Put Magic with Todays Soft Game and No Handchecking and every time he moves against his PG it would be a foul, every time. Not to mention with today`s lack of Court Vision it would be laughable for him to create. Barkley under these rules would destroy todays PFs every time he spins and drives (if you let he shoot his 10-12 FT jumper you are dead).. No wonder a healthy Karl Malone could still school at ages 35-39 till the year 2003 :confusedshrug:

[Godfather]

Put Magic with Todays Soft Game and No Handchecking and every time he moves against his PG it would be a foul, every time. Not to mention with today`s lack of Court Vision it would be laughable for him to create. Barkley under these rules would destroy todays PFs every time he spins and drives (if you let he shoot his 10-12 FT jumper you are dead).. No wonder a healthy Karl Malone could still school at ages 35-39 till the year 2003 :confusedshrug:

Zone>Magic...

Like I said Hollinger, the creator of per, said Paul would put up a higher per this season then Magic ever has by a substantial margin.

And Chris Paul didn't play with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper etc...

Are you telling me that is irrelevant?

[Biddy77]

Zone>Magic...

Like I said Hollinger, the creator of per, said Paul would put up a higher per this season then Magic ever has by a substantial margin.

And Chris Paul didn't play with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper etc...

Are you telling me that is irrelevant?
























practicing the "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything" idea. it f**king sucks. anyone trying to so much as imply that cp3 > magic clearly doesn't get it. oh, well. chances are, anyone as clueless as this guy will get killed in a freak 'putting their genitals in a vacuum cleaner' accident, so i won't have to worry about this kind of person breeding.

that thought helps somewhat.




but not enough.

[Scott Pippen]

Zone>Magic...

:confusedshrug:

[Scott Pippen]

practicing the "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything" idea. it f**king sucks. anyone trying to so much as imply that cp3 > magic clearly doesn't get it. oh, well. chances are, anyone as clueless as this guy will get killed in a freak 'putting their genitals in a vacuum cleaner' accident, so i won't have to worry about this kind of person breeding.

that thought helps somewhat.




but not enough.
Yes I must say I find it upsetting when people use the lack of illegal defense/addition of def. 3 sec rule to argue that today's players are better, or 'have it easier' (whatever that means), etc..

As if there is no more to the offensive side of basketball than scoring and passing, never mind the all around game and contributions from all aspects. To say today's guys may be better is one thing. In some cases it is correct. But not this time. :ohwell:

[L.Kizzle]

In 1963, you had 8 of the top 9 players of All-Time at that moment ...

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Bob Pettit
Bob Cousy
John Havlecek

[Sir Charles]

Zone>Magic...

Like I said Hollinger, the creator of per, said Paul would put up a higher per this season then Magic ever has by a substantial margin.

And Chris Paul didn't play with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper etc...

Are you telling me that is irrelevant?

Paul trying to Guard Magic in a fast break...results are laughable......:roll:
Paul trying to Guard Magic in a slow pace game Magic just switches to the "Post"...results are laughable...:roll:

COURT VISION, FUNDAMENTALS AND PASSING GAME > OWNS ANY ZONE D... any 80s or 90s NBA Player or Coach or Fan will Agreee to this...Dream Team I, II and II prooved that even more...the 80s drated Greats and Great Role Played Ruled the NBA till the year 2000....

Also...Magic took his 1991 Lakers to the finals against Malone-Stockton-Eaton, the Rockets, the Sonics etc...while not in his prime and Worthy not healthy..... :violin:

[Psileas]

Originally Posted by Godfather
Zone>Magic...

Like I said Hollinger, the creator of per, said Paul would put up a higher per this season then Magic ever has by a substantial margin.

And Chris Paul didn't play with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper etc...

Are you telling me that is irrelevant?

And the bolded one explains the red one. Put Paul with these guys and he doesn't get a PER better than Magic's, especially if he grows up during Magic's era. He wouldn't care after all, since PER was a thing that didn't exist up to the mid-00's.

BTW, real zones are the ones played in Europe and college.

[Godfather]

Paul trying to Guard Magic in a fast break...laughable......:roll:
Paul trying to Guard Magicn in a slow pace game in the "Post"...laughable...:roll:

COURT VISION, FUNDAMENTALS AND PASSING GAME > OWNS ANY ZONE D... any 80s or 90s NBA Player or Coach or Fan will Agreee to this...Dream Team I, II and II prooved that even more...the 80s drated Greats and Great Role Played Ruled the NBA till the year 2000....

Also...Magic took his 1991 Lakers to the finals against Malone-Stockton-Eaton, the Rockets, the Sonics etc...while not in his prime and Worthy not healthy..... :violin:
Why would a 6 foot guard a 6'9''?

Magic wouldn't be able to stay in front of Paul (he wasn't quick enough).

That is why Magic guarded Forwards...

Duncan, Tony Parker, Semi healthy Manu> Stockton, Malone

And he didn't have the big man GOAT Kareem.

@ Psileas (http://insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?u=77)

What are you trying to say? The knowledge of per motivates these players to play better? Sure Paul's points would have dipped, but his assists in a fast paced (currently playing in the slowest NBA offense), with HOF would have skyrocketed.

[Younggrease]

I said that the rest you can fill out accordingly. Those last 5 are very arguable imo so I left them out. I just listed the most concrete picks based on my opinion. Kobe does not make that list.

Karl
Moses
Robinson
Isiah
McHale
blah blah blah


The next 5 Kobe will probably end up in. Kobe is way better then McHale was and I love McHale...I also think he was better then Karl Malone

For CP3 to be top 5 he has to be better then Isiah and I dont know if I see that happening. People dont even have ISiah top 15 all the time.

[Sir Charles]

Why would a 6 foot guard a 6'9''?

He would have too or are you going to waste your SG on Magic? That would change the whole scenary of Paul`s team (Magic forced Jordan and Pippen both to nearly foul out every game in 91....:confusedshrug:

Magic wouldn't be able to stay in front of Paul (he wasn't quick enough)

Magic would just retrat and force Paul to take outside shots all day lowering his FG%...and in current zone rules he would have alot of help...not to mention every time Magic Posts Ups and Spins = Foul Called :confusedshrug:

That is why Magic guarded Forwards...

O did he? :roll: :applause:


Duncan, Tony Parker, Semi healthy Manu> Stockton, Malone

Are you talking about a 36-40 year old Malone Stockton against A PRIME Second Best Player of the 2000 era and a great sorrounding cast not to mention Mr. Robinson? Get Real :hammerhead:

And he didn't have the big man GOAT Kareem....

:roll: Duncan is a Center himself when he playes ...proof is everywhere..

[Sir Charles]

The next 5 Kobe will probably end up in. Kobe is way better then McHale was and I love McHale...I also think he was better then Karl Malone

For CP3 to be top 5 he has to be better then Isiah and I dont know if I see that happening. People dont even have ISiah top 15 all the time.

Kobe better than Malone? :roll:

But McHale in a scrappy team instead of the 80s Celtics and he would have been a 25-30 PPG, 55-60% FG, 9-10, 2-3 APG, 2-3 BPG man for most of his career. :violin:

[Scott Pippen]

Kobe better than Malone? :roll:

But McHale in a scrappy team instead of the 80s Celtics and he would have been a 25-30 PPG, 55-60% FG, 9-10, 2-3 APG, 2-3 BPG man for most of his career. :violin:
Yes I must agree McHale was an MVP caliber player. It shows just how deep the great Celtics team (and Lakers, 76ers, & Pistons) was in the 80s. :applause:

[milehighnuggz]

shaq is the only one who is a top 15 player

[Psileas]

@ Psileas

What are you trying to say? The knowledge of per motivates these players to play better? Sure Paul's points would have dipped, but his assists in a fast paced (currently playing in the slowest NBA offense), with HOF would have skyrocketed.

a) I'm pretty sure every superstar of the league knows pretty well what PER is, how highly valued it's considered by many and is interested at how well he's doing, in the same way he was interested at the rest of his stats up to now. Honestly, for example, I'll be very surprised if LeBron doesn't try up to the end of the regular season to break Wilt's all-time highest single season record of 31.84. If 1 game before the end of the season he's, say, at 31.75, I'm literally 90% sure that he'll go for a huge last game, whether it is important for his team or not.

Similarly, I'm pretty sure that Paul was/is not oblivious at all of these comparisons with Magic in relevance to PER (much like he wasn't oblivious to Oscar's "most 20 point-10 assist consecutive games to open the season" record that he broke in the beginning of this season.

b) I don't think Paul's assists would be much higher than now. The Lakers' system did involve Magic, but it wasn't dependant on Magic being the last passer before a basket as much as the Hornets' one is. Note also that PER values assists higher than points, so a certain fall in scoring won't be covered up by a similar increase in passing.

[Younggrease]

Kobe better than Malone? :roll:

But McHale in a scrappy team instead of the 80s Celtics and he would have been a 25-30 PPG, 55-60% FG, 9-10, 2-3 APG, 2-3 BPG man for most of his career. :violin:

So you pretty much said McHale would have put up better numbers then Shaq...I was gonna respond to the next but that assertion means that it would probably fall on def ears

[Se]

Garnett, anyone?

GTFO

He is not top 15, even if he gets 2 more championships.

[joshwake]

Just go Look at the BOTH: Top 10 EFF and PER... All Time List....:rolleyes:

Only Shaq and Duncan are found there...out of all these....Lebron will get there...

Garnett...atleast a Top 15-20 of All Time...respect :applause:


Bryant not even close :rolleyes: (Top 5-6 SG of All Time), Paul not even close :rolleyes:...etc not even close... :confusedshrug:

Shaq and Duncan are the Only True Last Dominating Players the last Decade has seen
agree:applause:

[Sir Charles]

So you pretty much said McHale would have put up better numbers then Shaq...I was gonna respond to the next but that assertion means that it would probably fall on def ears

Better numbers than Shaq? :no: I said he would hit those stats for atleast 6-7 seasons...not just 1-2 as he did with the Celtics because he was playing with Focal Everything: Bird. Also Parish, Maxwell and DJ...Numbers such as McHale`s of the 1986-87 season would have appeared 6 or 7 times in his career if he was playing in a scrubby team where he was the Focal Everything...

[joshwake]

Duncan, Tony Parker, Semi healthy Manu> Stockton, Malone

If you are trying to say 3>2 then bravo on the math kiddo.

while I would put Duncan slightly above Malone, Parker is not in Stockton's league. As for comparing the duos I would put Stockton & Malone as a healthy favorite.

Maybe you never got to watch them in their prime.

[bagelred]

Gee, there are now 28 guys in the Top 15.

Without going through names, I think Duncan and Shaq are clearly Top 15. I don't know if Kobe is in there or not. Have to make the list.

Lebron is on target to be a Top 15 player someday. Just not yet.

CP3? Wade? Neither will crack that elite club......

[Sir Charles]

If you are trying to say 3>2 then bravo on the math kiddo.

while I would put Duncan slightly above Malone, Parker is not in Stockton's league. As for comparing the duos I would put Stockton & Malone as a healthy favorite.

Maybe you never got to watch them in their prime.

I think these kids should look at the Stats on Malone and Stockton between ages 35-40 (1999-2003) into the 2000s also and see for themselves....what you are talking about :confusedshrug: .

Not to forget the limited minutes they played during those years (Stockton played an average of 29 MPG in those years) and they still schooled big time against these "Non Fundamental High Leaping Circus Playground Players" :rolleyes:

Stockton:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html

Malone:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

[ruslan]

Why? show me Iverson's rings.

Show me James' and Paul's rings :confusedshrug:

[StroShow4]

"Non Fundamental High Leaping Circus Playground Players" :rolleyes:

:oldlol: :roll:


I once heard a saying which applied to good things coming to an end.. it went something like this: don't be mad that it's over, be happy that it happened. the 80s/90s are gone forever, but i'm not sure you'll ever accept that things change, such as the game of basketball. we know you think chuck's era was the best, we know you don't like the modern style of play, we get it.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

some of you guys are just fcuking idiots.
If Lebron, Wade and CP3 continue to play the way they are currently, then they will obviously be top 15 all time.

[OldSchoolBBall]

some of you guys are just fcuking idiots.
If Lebron, Wade and CP3 continue to play the way they are currently, then they will obviously be top 15 all time.

They would need rings/accolades too, not just sustained excellent play (though that is one component).

[big baller]

Garnett, anyone?


:roll: :roll:

He would be lucky to get into top 50 imo.

[playtetris]

:roll: :roll:

He would be lucky to get into top 50 imo.

stupid comment. name 50 players better than garnett, all time.

[joshwake]

some of you guys are just fcuking idiots.
If Lebron, Wade and CP3 continue to play the way they are currently, then they will obviously be top 15 all time.
not even close. They will need to get alot better stats wise to even have a hope of cracking the top 15. 50 maybe, but 15 is a very elite group. some of you kids just never got a chance to watch some of the retired players. you can find probably 100+ of players with similar or better stats to their current ones.

[NBASTATMAN]

I heard some analyst or someone saying exactly this on tv...who was it again?

Wade, Paul, LeBron are not Top 15 yet, if any of them had a severe injury like Penny did, their promising careers would be diminshed.

As of now Shaq, Duncan, Kobe are Top 15 w/o a doubt.


I don't think Kobe is in that top 15 yet.. Kobe needs to win at least one title as the best player.. Than maybe he will crack that list.. I would say to crack the top ten than kobe needs 2-3 more titles.. But if kobe doesn't win any more titles I think his stats and accomplishments would rank him top 20 for sure...

[Juges8932]

Obviously Shaq and Duncan are top-15, and I believe Kobe. I can't understand under any circumstances Kobe not being top-15. I don't believe there were 15 players that were better than Kobe.

LBJ definitely has the potential, it will just depend on injuries, rings, accolades, ec.

Wade- He has a mountain to climb. I personally think he is a top-15 player skillwise. I doubt there are many that would be able to hang with him head-to-head at their peaks with him from what I have seen.

CP3- He's so young and fresh to the league it'll be a couple of years before one can say that. If he keeps on his current track though, I agree, he could definitely make an argument.

[Biddy77]

some of you guys are just fcuking idiots.
If Lebron, Wade and CP3 continue to play the way they are currently, then they will obviously be top 15 all time.

if i was walking through a restaurant, and i passed by a table as some diner made a comment along these lines, i would climb up on the table, drop trou, and s**t all over their dinner. then i'd say "wow, that was one of the top 15 dooks of all time. know how i know? because it was really f**king impressive just now. yeah. that's our criteria... s**t that happened recently is better than s**t that happened before. so... using that logic, that s**t was a top 15 s**t of all time."

[Cannonball]

if i was walking through a restaurant, and i passed by a table as some diner made a comment along these lines, i would climb up on the table, drop trou, and s**t all over their dinner. then i'd say "wow, that was one of the top 15 dooks of all time. know how i know? because it was really f**king impressive just now. yeah. that's our criteria... s**t that happened recently is better than s**t that happened before. so... using that logic, that s**t was a top 15 s**t of all time."
:oldlol: :oldlol: lol

[krazy19]

Is this going to be the ATG list in the future?!?!?!

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Russell
8. Hakeem
9. Robertson
10. Duncan
11. West
12. Kobe
13. Lebron
14. Wade
15. Paul

Missing out: Dr. J, Malone x2, Barkley, Baylor, Robinson, Havliceck, Barry, Mikan, Pettit

[highwhey]

if i was walking through a restaurant, and i passed by a table as some diner made a comment along these lines, i would climb up on the table, drop trou, and s**t all over their dinner. then i'd say "wow, that was one of the top 15 dooks of all time. know how i know? because it was really f**king impressive just now. yeah. that's our criteria... s**t that happened recently is better than s**t that happened before. so... using that logic, that s**t was a top 15 s**t of all time."
:roll:

Thank you for the illustrious analogy. You make an excellent point, ISH logic is retarded. Jeff should ban these kinds of people. Wade, LeBron and CP3 are great players, but to say they will end up top 15 is absurd, not until they at least reach their prime, even LeBron. The guy can easily get injured. People say Wade is in his prime...not much of a prime compared to all time greats IMO. Cp3 hasn't gone all the way ether.

[mattreis62]

if i was walking through a restaurant, and i passed by a table as some diner made a comment along these lines, i would climb up on the table, drop trou, and s**t all over their dinner. then i'd say "wow, that was one of the top 15 dooks of all time. know how i know? because it was really f**king impressive just now. yeah. that's our criteria... s**t that happened recently is better than s**t that happened before. so... using that logic, that s**t was a top 15 s**t of all time."

I think this is in the top 15 GOAT posts.

[jrong]

For CP3 to be top 5 he has to be better then Isiah and I dont know if I see that happening. People dont even have ISiah top 15 all the time.

CP will be better than Isiah. And Isiah is not top fifteen.

[Silverbullit]

And the bolded one explains the red one. Put Paul with these guys and he doesn't get a PER better than Magic's, especially if he grows up during Magic's era. He wouldn't care after all, since PER was a thing that didn't exist up to the mid-00's.

BTW, real zones are the ones played in Europe and college.

You can't compare PER from different seasons, especially from seasons of different eras.

[Scott Pippen]

if i was walking through a restaurant, and i passed by a table as some diner made a comment along these lines, i would climb up on the table, drop trou, and s**t all over their dinner. then i'd say "wow, that was one of the top 15 dooks of all time. know how i know? because it was really f**king impressive just now. yeah. that's our criteria... s**t that happened recently is better than s**t that happened before. so... using that logic, that s**t was a top 15 s**t of all time."
:applause:

[jrong]

Please.....:hammerhead: :banghead: :violin: :rolleyes:


I loved Chuck, but when has he ever had Wade's all-around game? And Charles, by his own admission, wasn't the best defender either.

The only reason that you're reacting this way is because Wade hasn't been on the court enough to show us his top form consistently. Talent-wise, I'm convinced he's the third-best SG ever.

[godofgods]

Also...Magic took his 1991 Lakers to the finals against Malone-Stockton-Eaton, the Rockets, the Sonics etc...while not in his prime and Worthy not healthy..... :violin:

But he's got Stern backing him dude.

[godofgods]

I got:

Duncan
Nowitzki
Nash

There are only 3. Lebron will eventually join them, so 4.

[jrong]

I got:

Duncan
Nowitzki
Nash

There are only 3. Lebron will eventually join them, so 4.

This has got to be a joke, right?

[AirJordan23]

I got:

Duncan
Nowitzki
Nash

There are only 3. Lebron will eventually join them, so 4.
Guys like Nash, Nowitzki, Iverson, Kidd etc that are being mentioned are easily top 50 all-time but top 15 all-time is a joke.

Duncan and Shaq are there. Anyone who says otherwise needs to logout ASAP. It depends on Kobe. I have him from 13-17, he'd be a lock if he wins a title as the MAN on his team. LeBron is likely to get there as his career pans out. Wade, top 25 I can see. I think the "age" factor is against him, he's already 27 and who knows what are the chances of him winning another ring. If he wins one as the 1st option, its likely for him to get there. Paul, eh? Maybe. I see him having an Isiahesque career but he isn't gonna surpass him. Isiah is around 19-23. Paul might get there.

[Silverbullit]

not even close. They will need to get alot better stats wise to even have a hope of cracking the top 15. 50 maybe, but 15 is a very elite group. some of you kids just never got a chance to watch some of the retired players. you can find probably 100+ of players with similar or better stats to their current ones.

No, you can't. :no:

[adamcz]

not even close. They will need to get alot better stats wise to even have a hope of cracking the top 15. 50 maybe, but 15 is a very elite group. some of you kids just never got a chance to watch some of the retired players. you can find probably 100+ of players with similar or better stats to their current ones.
Not true at all.

Read up on winscores, and see that Paul's stats are in the Magic/Bird category. Why should we listen to your offhand opinions about stats when we can read from a professor of economics who spends his life thinking about it over at wagesofwins.

If you think that 100 players (or even 50) have put up Chris Paul type stats, it only shows that you don't know how to read a box score. It just isn't true, even if you include all the players from the 120 points per game era without pace-adjusting.

It astounds me how little the average fan knows about stats and how they translate to winning games. We have so many posters here who don't understand that turnovers and missed shots hurt a team, and therefore don't understand that no amount of points scored at 40% helps a team win. I don't care if you average 85 points per game - if you did it at 40% shooting, you didn't help your team.

[Silverbullit]

One example:

LeBron's career average in ppg is the 3rd best alltime...

[NOHCP3]

Far to go with all of them, but if they all continue on this path. They will be at least in the top 30. Kobe's in, unless he just falls of the face of the earth his last 5 years. Even then. Lebron needs a few rings, and to stay healthy. Same for Wade. Howard and Paul are still both very young and only have a little playoff success, so theirs is yet to be seen. I know CP3 puts up amazing numbers but hes only been in the NBA for 4 years now. He's got to get a better supporting cast,(just a bench really), and stay healthy.

But like I said.... top 30 maybe for these 6 guys.

[jrong]

One example:

LeBron's career average in ppg is the 3rd best alltime...

Career averages are not a good way to compare players. LeBron was handed the keys to a bad franchise when he arrived in Cleveland. So his averages are going to be higher than players who started out as secondary options on better teams or even began their career as bench players.

On the other end, players that have long careers will have have reduced averages because they won't be as productive statistically at the end of their careers. Such is the case with Kareem and even Michael Jordan.

[Silverbullit]

Career averages are not a good way to compare players. LeBron was handed the keys to a bad franchise when he arrived in Cleveland. So his averages are going to be higher than players who started out as secondary options on better teams or even began their career as bench players.

On the other end, players that have long careers will have have reduced averages because they won't be as productive statistically at the end of their careers. Such is the case with Kareem and even Michael Jordan.

I added another example, which is more likely to show "you can NOT find probably 100+ of players with similar or better stats to their current ones"

[bagelred]

Is this going to be the ATG list in the future?!?!?!

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Russell
8. Hakeem
9. Robertson
10. Duncan
11. West
12. Kobe
13. Lebron
14. Wade
15. Paul

Missing out: Dr. J, Malone x2, Barkley, Baylor, Robinson, Havliceck, Barry, Mikan, Pettit

Um......you left Julius Evering off the lift? Little crazy.....

You think Wade and Paul will end up higher than Stocken or Karl Malone....I don't think so.

[jrong]

Guys like Nash, Nowitzki, Iverson, Kidd etc that are being mentioned are easily top 50 all-time but top 15 all-time is a joke.

I don't think Nash and Nowitzki are top fifty easily or difficulty. They are HOF players, in Nash's case due to his dubious MVPs. But, they do not belong on any list of all-time great players.

[Silverbullit]

I don't think Nash and Nowitzki are top fifty easily or difficulty. They are HOF players, in Nash's case due to his dubious MVPs. But, they do not belong on any list of all-time great players.

In case of Dirk I would say he belongs to a top 50 list.

[LA_Showtime]

I got:

Duncan
Nowitzki
Nash

There are only 3. Lebron will eventually join them, so 4.

Nash and Dirk... really? I think Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, and CP3 are locks to be in the top 15 when it's all said and done and the only way one of those guys doesn't make the list is if a) Kobe gets to the Finals 3-4 more times and loses b) Lebron or CP3 suffer injuries that derail their careers

[Psileas]

You can't compare PER from different seasons, especially from seasons of different eras.

I know. To begin with, it wasn't me the one who started the comparisons. Second, PER is a number designed to measure statistical dominance over your peers for a certain season. Although it's still not accurate to assume how dominant X player would be instead of Y player of a different era, it's not wrong to make certain points concerning the clearly different depth of the teams these players played/play for, which, in turn, influence statistical dominance over their teammates and the rest of the league.

[gotbacon23]

penny hardaway could have been top 15 of all-time too...
1 third team all-nba and 2 first all-nbas and seasons of:
20.9 ppg/7.2 apg/4.4 rpg/1.7 spg/51% fg
21.7 ppg/7.1 apg/4.3 rpg/2.0 spg/51% fg
20.5 ppg/5.6 apg/4.5 rpg/1.6 spg /45% fg

ALL through his 25th birthday.

then shaq left and his injuries started to pile up.

it is not premature to consider tim duncan and shaquille o'neal (both locks as top 15), or kobe and kevin garnett (both have a case for top 15, but not locks). but it is very premature to consider lebron, cp3, dwight howard or anybody as young as them because things can go bad quickly as evidence by penny.

btw, nowitzki and nash won't even be close to top 15 all-time when their careers are older. theres probably about ten point guards better than nash all-time, let alone 15 players total.

[samlee78]

It's a joke to put CP3 and Wade on that list and not Allen Iverson :no:


nicely said:applause:

[Biddy77]

not including Karl Malone in a top 15 is just insane. before Duncan, he was probably the best PF in league history to that point. i would take a prime karl malone over a prime wade or cp3 with no hesitation.

malone would probably have two rings if he hadn't had the misfortune of running into the Dream Shatterer (the Goat, MJ).

[Fatal9]

Garnett, anyone?
:roll:

Please limit this to players in top 15 not top 30.

[utahjazzrock]

So here are 15 players that are in that range. (none current)
(not neccesarily in that order)
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Russell
7. Dr.J
8. O. Robertson
9. Cousy
10. JWest
11. Malone
12. Stockton
13. Baylor
14. Moses Malone

Shaq for sure makes this list but can you honestly see Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Paul and Lebron passing these guys. I mean like 2-3 maybe.

[Micku]

So here are 15 players that are in that range. (none current)
(not neccesarily in that order)
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Russell
7. Dr.J
8. O. Robertson
9. Cousy
10. JWest
11. Malone
12. Stockton
13. Baylor
14. Moses Malone

Shaq for sure makes this list but can you honestly see Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Paul and Lebron passing these guys. I mean like 2-3 maybe.

Yeah, I can see Duncan passing Malone. Paul, if he keeps playing like this, and if he wins a win he could get up there. Wade needs to win another championship and/or keep playing like he is playing now to be in there. LBJ gets the hype and if he wins a championship or two, he'll be up there. Kobe has the hype too.

[Younggrease]

So here are 15 players that are in that range. (none current)
(not neccesarily in that order)
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Russell
7. Dr.J
8. O. Robertson
9. Cousy
10. JWest
11. Malone
12. Stockton
13. Baylor
14. Moses Malone

Shaq for sure makes this list but can you honestly see Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Paul and Lebron passing these guys. I mean like 2-3 maybe.

This is just wrong...there is no way in hell cousy and Stocton are they at high...Julious Erving is overrated as well..Also Tim Duncan is already surpassed Karl Malone and where the hell is Hakeem.

[t-rex]

whats the difference between this season and, say 1987-88 for example, with michael jordan, magic johnson, larry bird, kareem abdul-jabbar, karl malone, hakeem olajuwon, charles barkley, moses malone all playing. all aren't guaranteed top 15 all-time but all have a case. by the end of their careers, thats a combined 24 MVP awards for 8 players:

abdul-jabbar: 6
michael jordan: 5
moses malone: 3
larry bird: 3
magic johnson: 3
karl malone: 2
hakeem olajuwon: 1
charles barkley: 1

after that season (87-88) they had 14 MVP awards combined



That's actually not a fair comparison because while all of those players were playing in 1987, not all of them were in their "prime."

Out of all of those players, only Magic, Bird and Jordan were top 15 players.

Barkley, Olajuwan and Malone had not yet reached the prime of their careers. I would put them in a group with early 90's players.

Jabbar and Malone were well past their primes and were not top 15 players that season. Heck, Erving retired in 1987, why not put him on the list?

If you fast forward to 2008-9. We have Wade, James, Bryant, Duncan and O'Neil who can make legit claims to the top 15. And all but O'Neil are still in the prime of their career. And even O'Neil of 2008 is a better center than Jabbar of 1987.

Therefore:

2008- Top 15 (Duncan, Bryant, James Wade)

1987- Top 15 (Jordan, Bird, Magic)

The past is not always better than the present.




http://blogs.undftd.com/undftd/kareem_abdul_jabbar_skyhook.jpg

Jabbar averaged only 14.6 points per game in 1987

[Sir Charles]

not including Karl Malone in a top 15 is just insane. before Duncan, he was probably the best PF in league history to that point. i would take a prime karl malone over a prime wade or cp3 with no hesitation.

malone would probably have two rings if he hadn't had the misfortune of running into the Dream Shatterer (the Goat, MJ).

Wrong best from 1996-2000 not from 1985 to 1995 that was Barkley

Prime Barkley > Malone (ages 22-32) i saw them both play on a daily case...i`ve already prooved this even stat wise. :rolleyes:

But i agree Malone should be in the Top 15

If one go by positions Top 3 Cs, Top 3 PFs Top 3 SFs, Top 3 SGs and Top 3 PGs = 15....then he needs to be in there :confusedshrug:

[LJJ]

Duncan has a case. Shaq has a case.

No one else has a case so far.

[Sir Charles]

:oldlol: :roll:


I once heard a saying which applied to good things coming to an end.. it went something like this: don't be mad that it's over, be happy that it happened. the 80s/90s are gone forever, but i'm not sure you'll ever accept that things change, such as the game of basketball. we know you think chuck's era was the best, we know you don't like the modern style of play, we get it.

Chuck`s best era was early 90s but the best era was 1983-1993....Best era was the 80s...Chuck`s wasn`t in his total prime up until 1987...:confusedshrug:

[Biddy77]

Wrong best from 1996-2000 not from 1985 to 1995 that was Barkley

Prime Barkley > Malone (ages 22-32) i saw them both play on a daily case...i`ve already prooved this even stat wise. :rolleyes:

But i agree Malone should be in the Top 15

If he go by positions Top 3 Cs, Top 3 PFs Top 3 SFs, Top 3 SGs and Top 3 PGs = 15....then he needs to be in there :confusedshrug:

i've seen your threads about the subject. i even crushed a few of your arguments in that thread (like mentioning how barkley was more versatile as a scorer... which was irrelevant, because malone was unstoppable and didn't HAVE to step outside).

malone > barkley.

i'm pretty sure even barkley would tell you as much. in fact, he said openly that malone was a better scorer and rebounder than him on TNT *this season*, iirc.

[EllEffEll]

Um......you left Julius Evering off the lift? Little crazy.....

:confusedshrug: Dr J. = Julius Erving

[Sir Charles]

i've seen your threads about the subject. i even crushed a few of your arguments in that thread (like mentioning how barkley was more versatile as a scorer... which was irrelevant, because malone was unstoppable and didn't HAVE to step outside).

malone > barkley.

i'm pretty sure even barkley would tell you as much. in fact, he said openly that malone was a better scorer and rebounder than him on TNT *this season*, iirc.

Oh really? :hammerhead: Then explain to me why inside the 3-Point Line ...2-Point FG%: = The Real Measure of a PFs and Cs sCORING Efficiency...it happens to sorround 3 Players...in the Season All Time 2-Point FG%:

1) 7`2 280 lbs Gilmore (ONLY A Focal Scorer for 3-4 years)
2) 7,1 300-350 lbs Shaq (FOCAL SOCRER, AND THEE MOST UNSTOPPALBE SCORING FORCE C EVER)
3) 6`5 (at best) 250-280 lbs Barkley (FOCAL SCORER FOR 90% OF HIS CAREER, NOT IN HIS FIRST 2 SEASONS AS AN OVERWEIGHT 284 LB ROOKIE AND IN HOUSTON WHEN HE COULDN`T PLAY ANYMORE)

ALL 3 HAVE THEE HIGHEST 2-POINT FG% EVER :confusedshrug: (then McHale, Wilt and Jabbar and Dantley...)

Indeed...Very Very Strange......

Get your facts straight kid! Barkley played in phily in slow paced eastern conference, superior inside defense and no Stockton to feed him throuigh Pick and Rolls and Fast Breaks and this is the difference of the INSIDE SHOOTING EFFICIENCY between Barkley and Karl Malone :rolleyes:

Season 3-Point FGA (3-Point Field Goal Attempts)

Barkley: 2020
Malone: 310
McHale: 157
Duncan: 126

Season 2-Point FG%

1-CHARLES BARKLEY: 58.13% FG% (21.6 PPG)(1st Option/Focal Scorer)

2-KEVIN MCHALE: 55.75% FG% (17.7 PPG) (2nd Scoring)

3-KARL MALONE: 51.90% FG% (24.8 PPG)(1st Option/Focal Scorer)

4-TIM DUNCAN: 51.06% FG% (21.4 PPG) (1st Option/Focal Scorer)

6.23% Efficency Difference (Same Gap Between a 51% Inside Scorer vs a 45% Inside Scorer) :hammerhead:

Play-Offs 2-Point FG%

***Clutch Time. This is When A Player Faces the Toughest Of Competitions.

1-KEVIN MCHALE: 56.30% FG% (18.7 PPG) (2nd Scoring Option)

2-CHARLES BARKLEY: 55.13% FG (22.5 PPG)(1st Scoring Option/Focal Scorer)

3-TIM DUNCAN: 50.43% FG% (23.3 PPG) (1st Scoring Option/Focal Scorer)

4-KARL MALONE: 46.56% FG% (24.6 PPG) (1st Scoring Option/Focal Scorer)

8.57% Efficency Difference (Same Gap Between a 55% Inside Scorer vs a 46.4% Inside Scorer) :hammerhead:

Yeah Chuck just relied on his mid range jumper & fast break points all day in the FASTTER PACED Eastern Conference with passing and game creating machine John Stockton leading his fast break scores :roll: :applause: ..

Barkley in his prime was the most doubled and sometimes tripled (by perimter players included) and guarded Inside Player before Shaq! . Was guarded by an Average of 3 Different Players Per Game from fear of fouling out the other team!. Centers had to rotate positions in the play-offs such as David Robinson/Hakeem ( they where forced to leave their opposing Cs to Barkley Barkley for extended periods) and the fact that: HE WAS THEE PLAYER THAT CREATED MORE ILEGAL DEFENSES IN HIS TIME :roll:


Don`t make me laugh chump....:violin:

[Younggrease]

malone would probably have two rings if he hadn't had the misfortune of running into the Dream Shatterer (the Goat, MJ).

I wasnt aware Karl only played two seasons...what happened during all the other years of his career. Also it wasnt like he was facing the prime MJ and Pip...There are a ton of team that could have beaten the later version of the Bulls.

[joshwake]

I wasnt aware Karl only played two seasons...what happened during all the other years of his career. Also it wasnt like he was facing the prime MJ and Pip...There are a ton of team that could have beaten the later version of the Bulls.
what? :confusedshrug:

many argue those bulls teams to be in the top 5 of all time....

and apart from Jeff Hornacek, Stockton and Malone had a paltry supporting cast. Bryon Russel, Greg Ostertag, are you ****ing joking with that ****?

even with all the jokers on the team the 96,97 Jazz are two of the better teams that never won a ring. Put them against 90% of the champions from other years and they would mop the floor with them

[Younggrease]

what? :confusedshrug:

many argue those bulls teams to be in the top 5 of all time....

and apart from Jeff Hornacek, Stockton and Malone had a paltry supporting cast. Bryon Russel, Greg Ostertag, are you ****ing joking with that ****?

even with all the jokers on the team the 96,97 Jazz are two of the better teams that never won a ring. Put them against 90% of the champions from other years and they would mop the floor with them

I doubt it....All the Lakers teams from 99-2002 would beat them All the Spurs title teams except 1 would beat them. And the Celtics would likely beat them as well. Not to mention Clyde's Blazers and Barkley's Suns and Isiah's Pistons... The Jazz werent world beaters.

It didnt have to be Jordan, Jazz would have gotten handled by a bunch of teams..Jordan's last Bulls team was no where near top 5 all time...not even remotely close.

[Sir Charles]

what? :confusedshrug:

many argue those bulls teams to be in the top 5 of all time....

and apart from Jeff Hornacek, Stockton and Malone had a paltry supporting cast. Bryon Russel, Greg Ostertag, are you ****ing joking with that ****?

even with all the jokers on the team the 96,97 Jazz are two of the better teams that never won a ring. Put them against 90% of the champions from other years and they would mop the floor with them

They couldn`t get by an aging Magic with no Kareem in 1990, rookie and young Kemp and Payton duo years later and Hakeem and Thorpe also :confusedshrug: WHY? Ive Said it Before and Ill Say It Again:

THEY WHERE PURE POSITIONAL PLAYERS...They wherent the HAKEEMS, BIRDS, BARKLEYS, MAGICS, MJS and PIPPENS etc that COULD EXPAND THEIR GAMES FROM THEIR POSITIONAL ROLES...THEY WHERE NOT NON POSITIONAL AND THEIR BY LIMITED FROM THEIR POSITIONS TO EXPAND AND CREATE OTHER THINGS...

BUT! that has nothing to go against the fact Stock and Malone are BOTH 3 of THEE GREATEST PFs and PGs of All Time and BOTH DESERVE TOB IN THE TOP 15 GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME...They Kept healthy even passed their primes and showed that THEIR DUO WAS UNSTOPPABLE schooling all those high leaping playground unfundamental chumps even way passed their primes...:applause:

[Sir Charles]

I doubt it....All the Lakers teams from 99-2002 would beat them All the Spurs title teams except 1 would beat them. And the Celtics would likely beat them as well. Not to mention Clyde's Blazers and Barkley's Suns and Isiah's Pistons... The Jazz werent world beaters.

It didnt have to be Jordan, Jazz would have gotten handled by a bunch of teams..Jordan's last Bulls team was no where near top 5 all time...not even remotely close.

Their LATE 80s JAZZ was even better than those teams with Shot Blocking and Interior Defender Force Mark Eaton....:confusedshrug: but they sadly had to face the Greatest Era in NBA Basket the 80s...and then ofcourse MJ-Pippen`s Bulls with also Rodman, Kukoc..etc..

Stop Underrating Malone and Stockton THEY ARE BOTH TOP 15 ALL TIME. END!

[t-rex]

I doubt it....All the Lakers teams from 99-2002 would beat them All the Spurs title teams except 1 would beat them. And the Celtics would likely beat them as well. Not to mention Clyde's Blazers and Barkley's Suns and Isiah's Pistons... The Jazz werent world beaters.

It didnt have to be Jordan, Jazz would have gotten handled by a bunch of teams


I have to agree. I think the Utah Jazz of the late 90's are perhaps the most overrated good to great teams of all time.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that every NBA team that won the Championship from 1980 to 2008 would have also defeated the Jazz had they been the opponent.

There's no window in the modern era where the Jazz would have won.

In fact, while I appreciate the legacy of the Bulls, they won 6 championships during one of the weakest decades in NBA history when it came to the quality of the era's other great teams.



http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/2314/team.jpg
There wasn't much competition for the Bulls in the 90s.



http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0810/nba.best.post.season.performances/images/michael_jordan_1997.jpg
Utah Jazz-Cannon Fodder for NBA Championship caliber teams

[Positive]

Duncan has a case. Shaq has a case.

No one else has a case so far.


QFT.

I don't see how so many people have Kobe so high. You can call me a hater or whatever, but I see Kobe more in the 20-30 range than the top 15. He really hasn't proved to be able to do much of anything without Shaq, other than help dismantle his multiple championship winning team. He wanted his chance to prove he can be the man, and has not really produced as much as what many thought he was capable of.

[Younggrease]

Their LATE 80s JAZZ was even better than those teams with Shot Blocking and Interior Defender Force Mark Eaton....:confusedshrug: but they sadly had to face the Greatest Era in NBA Basket the 80s...and then ofcourse MJ-Pippen`s Bulls with also Rodman, Kukoc..etc..

Stop Underrating Malone and Stockton THEY ARE BOTH TOP 15 ALL TIME. END!

But Jordan didnt stop the late 80s Jazz from winning...Im sick of people saying that Malone didnt win a title because of Jordan. Its just wrong, he didnt win a title because every year of his career he was not able to get it done. It wasnt just Michael it was a host of other teams that also helped.

And there is no way in hell that John Stockton is top 15 all time...There was rarely a time in Stocktons career were he was top 5 in the league at that time. He wasnt even the second best pg in the league due to Stoclton and for certain years KJ and other pgs out played him....

[Sir Charles]

I have to agree. I think the Utah Jazz of the late 90's are perhaps the most overrated good to great teams of all time.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that every NBA team that won the Championship from 1980 to 2008 would have also defeated the Jazz had they been the opponent.

There's no window in the modern era where the Jazz would have won.

In fact, while I appreciate the legacy of the Bulls, they won 6 championships during one of the weakest decades in NBA history when it came to the quality of the era's other great teams:no: .



http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/2314/team.jpg
There wasn't much competition for the Bulls in the 90s.



http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0810/nba.best.post.season.performances/images/michael_jordan_1997.jpg
Utah Jazz-Cannon Fodder for NBA Championship caliber teams

:no:

Aged 34 and 35 year old Malone and Stockton schooled Prime Shaq!, Horry, Fisher and Bryant etc...4-0 Blow Out in 1998 and that team < Late 80ds and 1988 Jazz :confusedshrug:

The only GREAT GREAT in the Last 12 YEARS have been Shaq-Bryant`s Lakers, Robinson-Duncan`s and SHAQ-WADE`s HEAT.

The 1996 Sonics > these Celtics: Kemp (only one not rich fundamentally but athletically a monster), Payton (Thee Most Underrated Great PG of All Time), Shrempf (Underrated SF/PF with Guard handles, Perkins (One of the Best Shooting PFs of All Time), Hawkins and Eddie (Good Passers and Shooters)...WAY MORE ALL AROUND FUNDAMENTALS than todays Celtics

[AirJordan23]

Malone has a case for top 15 all-time. Stockton is more like top 25. Stockton was never head and shoulders above the other PGs in the league. Even during Stockton's prime years, he wasn't a perennial All-NBA 1st teamer. KJ, Tim Hardaway, Penny, Mark Price, GP and Kidd made the team above him. And, its focused more on individual play than the success of the team. What sets apart Stockton from those guys is his longevity and how he was able to play at such a high level for years. Also, Stockton's achievments are amazing, 1st in steals, assists etc. Tough defender, clutch, efficient scorer.

[AirJordan23]

:no:

Aged 34 and 35 year old Malone and Stockton schooled Prime Shaq!, Horry, Fisher and Bryant etc...4-0 Blow Out in 1998 and that team < Late 80ds and 1988 Jazz :confusedshrug:

The only GREAT GREAT in the Last 12 YEARS have been Shaq-Bryant`s Lakers, Robinson-Duncan`s and SHAQ-WADE`s HEAT.

The 1996 Sonics > these Celtics: Kemp (only one not rich fundamentally but athletically a monster), Payton (Thee Most Underrated Great PG of All Time), Shrempf (Underrated SF/PF with Guard handles, Perkins (One of the Best Shooting PFs of All Time), Hawkins and Eddie (Good Passers and Shooters)...WAY MORE ALL AROUND FUNDAMENTALS than todays Celtics
I think the '04 Pistons were great too. One of the greatest defensive teams of all-time.

[Da_Realist]

I have to agree. I think the Utah Jazz of the late 90's are perhaps the most overrated good to great teams of all time.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that every NBA team that won the Championship from 1980 to 2008 would have also defeated the Jazz had they been the opponent.

There's no window in the modern era where the Jazz would have won.

Maybe. But I also believe that any team in the last 28 years could have also beaten the 81 Rockets, 86 Rockets and the injury-riddled 89 Lakers. I don't think it takes away from the championships won those years.

I also think that too many people only look at the Finals opponent to judge the quality of the league in a particular year. I'm not saying that you are doing that, but a lot of people do.


In fact, while I appreciate the legacy of the Bulls, they won 6 championships during one of the weakest decades in NBA history when it came to the quality of the era's other great teams.


Just so I know which championships I should disregard, when do you think the league became weak? Was it ALL the 90's or just part of it? Did the Bulls win all 6 titles in a weak league or just some of them?

[Sir Charles]

But Jordan didnt stop the late 80s Jazz from winning...Im sick of people saying that Malone didnt win a title because of Jordan. Its just wrong, he didnt win a title because every year of his career he was not able to get it done. It wasnt just Michael it was a host of other teams that also helped.

And there is no way in hell that John Stockton is top 15 all time...There was rarely a time in Stocktons career were he was top 5 in the league at that time. He wasnt even the second best pg in the league due to Stoclton and for certain years KJ and other pgs out played him....

He didn`t win not just because of Jordan-Pippen but also you forget to mention Rodman!, Harper! and Kukoc (ex All Stars and All Star caliber player)

And in the 80s well...THE 80s GREATEST NBA DECADE EVER

80s Showtime! Best Team of the 80s: Kareem-Magic-Worthy-Green-Scott etc

Dallas Mavericks = Underrated here!: Blackman! (All Star), Aguirre! (All Star ), Tarpley (Would have been a Superstar: Top 5 PF in the 80s: Charles, McHale, Malone and Sampson only ones better if that!), Perkins! (Great Role Player) and D-Harper (also underrated)

Suns: Prime Chambers, young KJ-Majerlie and Underrated Hornaceck!

Sonics: Prime Chambers!, Prime D-Ellis! Prime McDaniel (underrated) and Lister one of the NBA`s Best Deenders

And because as i pointed out before already :rolleyes: Stockton and Malone where not MULTI FUNCTIONAL MULTI POSITIONAL PLAYERS...they where PURE AS PURE EVER AS A PG AND PF CAN BE...SO THEY COULDN`T MAKE THEIR PLAYERS BETTER like that of MJ, BARKLEY, HAKEEM, BIRD, MAGIC, D-ROB....

They are closer to the level of the EWINGs and DREXLERs

but they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any Other Player Today Not Named Shaq or Duncan..in the future Garnett and ofcourse Lebron...

Lower level the Bryants, Paytons, Webbers, Dirks etc

Get it straight!

80s > 90s > 2000s

[Sir Charles]

I think the '04 Pistons were great too. One of the greatest defensive teams of all-time.

Agreed but they have no chance against a GREAT OFFENSE that CAN ALSO DEFEND: 80s LAKERS, 80S CELTICS, EARLY 80S SIXERS...80S PISTONS...

[Sir Charles]

Malone has a case for top 15 all-time. :no: Stockton was never head and shoulders above the other PGs in the league. Even during Stockton's prime years, he wasn't a perennial All-NBA 1st teamer. KJ, Tim Hardaway, Penny, Mark Price, GP and Kidd made the team above him. And, its focused more on individual play than the success of the team. What sets apart Stockton from those guys is his longevity and how he was able to play at such a high level for years. Also, Stockton's achievments are amazing, 1st in steals, assists etc. Tough defender, clutch, efficient scorer.


Assists

1985-86 NBA 610 (8)
1986-87 NBA 670 (7)
1987-88 NBA 1128 (1)
1988-89 NBA 1118 (1)
1989-90 NBA 1134 (1)
1990-91 NBA 1164 (1)
1991-92 NBA 1126 (1)
1992-93 NBA 987 (1)
1993-94 NBA 1031 (1)
1994-95 NBA 1011 (1)
1995-96 NBA 916 (1)
1996-97 NBA 860 (2)*PRIME YEARS
1998-99 NBA 374 (6)
1999-00 NBA 703 (4)
2000-01 NBA 713 (2) :eek: *EVEN AGAINST TODAYS HIGH LEAPING ATHLETIC CHUMPS!
2001-02 NBA 674 (5)
2002-03 NBA 629 (5)
Career NBA 15806 (1)
Career 15806 (1):banghead:

Steals Per Game

1986-87 NBA 2.2 (8)
1987-88 NBA 3.0 (3)
1988-89 NBA 3.2 (1)
1989-90 NBA 2.7 (2)
1990-91 NBA 2.9 (2)
1991-92 NBA 3.0 (1)
1992-93 NBA 2.4 (3)
1993-94 NBA 2.4 (4)
1994-95 NBA 2.4 (4)*PRIME YEARS
1996-97 NBA 2.0 (8)
1999-00 NBA 1.7 (10)
2001-02 NBA 1.9 (10)
Career NBA 2.2 (7)
Career 2.2 (7):rolleyes:

Player Efficiency Rating

1987-88 NBA 23.2 (7)
1988-89 NBA 22.9 (7)
1989-90 NBA 23.9 (9)
1990-91 NBA 23.4 (10)
1991-92 NBA 22.8 (8)
1992-93 NBA 21.3 (10)
1993-94 NBA 22.5 (10)
1994-95 NBA 23.3 (6)
1996-97 NBA 22.1 (7)*PRIME YEARS
Career NBA 21.8 (27)
Career 21.8 (27)

Offensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 125.2 (3)
1988-89 NBA 122.2 (5)
1989-90 NBA 124.0 (4)
1993-94 NBA 120.6 (3)
1994-95 NBA 125.4 (4)
1995-96 NBA 125.5 (1)
1996-97 NBA 125.0 (2)
1997-98 NBA 122.2 (1)
1998-99 NBA 115.2 (5)
1999-00 NBA 120.5 (1)
2000-01 NBA 120.1 (1) *PRIME YEARS AND EVEN PASSED HIS PRIME :eek:
2001-02 NBA 119.5 (7)
2002-03 NBA 116.9 (10)
Career NBA 120.5 (4)
Career 120.5 (4):rolleyes:

Offensive Win Shares

1987-88 NBA 9.3 (5)
1988-89 NBA 9.5 (4)
1989-90 NBA 10.2 (6)
1990-91 NBA 9.1 (10)
1991-92 NBA 8.7 (6)
1993-94 NBA 9.1 (3)
1994-95 NBA 9.9 (4)
1995-96 NBA 9.9 (4)
1996-97 NBA 10.0 (4) *PRIME YEARS
1999-00 NBA 7.9 (9)
2000-01 NBA 8.1 (10)
Career NBA 141.0 (2)
Career 141.0 (2) :rolleyes:

Defensive Win Shares

1987-88 NBA 5.0 (6)
1988-89 NBA 5.7 (4)
1991-92 NBA 4.6 (10)
Career NBA 64.3 (12)
Career 64.3 (13)

Win Shares

1987-88 NBA 14.4 (4)
1988-89 NBA 15.2 (4)
1989-90 NBA 14.1 (6)
1990-91 NBA 13.7 (5)
1991-92 NBA 13.3 (5)
1992-93 NBA 10.5 (9)
1993-94 NBA 12.9 (5)
1994-95 NBA 13.9 (3)
1995-96 NBA 12.7 (5)
1996-97 NBA 13.6 (4)

Career NBA 205.3 (3) :rolleyes:
Career 205.3 (3)

19 years in the league:

14.9 PPG...only 10.3 FGA PG...51.5% FG%:confusedshrug: :sleeping



MALONE & STOCKTON = GREATEST OFFENSIVE DUO OF ALL TIME

[AirJordan23]

^I already said Stockton is above those guys for his longevity. But, he was never head and shoulders above those guys. The All-NBA teams are for that purpose. Stockton ranks above those guys on his achievements (1st in assists, steals, other awards) and how he was able to play at such a high level throughout his career except for the 1st couple of years. He is top 25 all-time. Case could definitely be made for top 20. I don't see top 15.

I have a question for you. If you want a first option on your team, would you take Stockton over Isiah?

[Sir Charles]

^I already said Stockton is above those guys for his longevity. But, he was never head and shoulders above those guys. The All-NBA teams are for that purpose. Stockton ranks above those guys on his achievements (1st in assists, steals, other awards) and how he was able to play at such a high level throughout his career except for the 1st couple of years. He is top 25 all-time. Case could definitely be made for top 20. I don't see top 15.

I have a question for you. If you want a first option on your team, would you take Stockton over Isiah?

Stockton and Isiah = pretty much...Isiah had Superior All Around Teamates: Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, Dantley, Rodman, Mahorn, Salley...:confusedshrug:

PGs of All Time

1-Magic
2-Oscar
3-Isiah/Stockton

Isiah is not clearly better than Stock :no:

[AirJordan23]

Stockton and Isiah = pretty much...Isiah had Superior All Around Teamates: Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, Dantley, Rodman, Mahorn, Salley...:confusedshrug:

PGs of All Time

1-Magic
2-Oscar
3-Isiah/Stockton

Isiah is not clearly better than Stock :no:
Isiah did play on a stacked team. Late 80s Pistons were pretty damn talented. Great defensive team. One of the greatest backcourts of all time. However, Isiah was the teams best player, he was the one who raised his game the most. His game performance in the '88 finals is one for the ages. 25 points in the 3rd quarter on a sprained ankle. Played with immense heart. We never got to see Stockton as THE MAN on his team. Malone and Stockton were more like 1a and 1b. So, I would probably pick Isiah.

Btw, your list is fine. I'd have Isiah 3rd and Stockton 4th. Payton and Kidd are probably 5th and 6th. I haven't seen Bob Cousy play so I can't comment on him.

[Sir Charles]

Isiah did play on a stacked team. Late 80s Pistons were pretty damn talented. Great defensive team. One of the greatest backcourts of all time. However, Isiah was the teams best player, he was the one who raised his game the most. His game performance in the '88 finals is one for the ages. 25 points in the 3rd quarter on a sprained ankle. Played with immense heart. We never got to see Stockton as THE MAN on his team. Malone and Stockton were more like 1a and 1b. So, I would probably pick Isiah.

Btw, your list is fine. I'd have Isiah 3rd and Stockton 4th. Payton and Kidd are probably 5th and 6th. I haven't seen Bob Cousy play so I can't comment on him.

He wasn`t the Best Player or atleast he shared tha Spot with Dantley...To Bad these Idiots Did Not Get Along.:banghead: ..I would have used Dantley at the SG spot....Sorry Joe-D :confusedshrug:

PG: Isiah
SG: Dantley (Joe D)
SF: Aguirre (Rodman)
PF: Mahorn (Salley)
C: Laimbeer

[Da_Realist]

Isiah did play on a stacked team. Late 80s Pistons were pretty damn talented. Great defensive team. One of the greatest backcourts of all time. However, Isiah was the teams best player, he was the one who raised his game the most. His game performance in the '88 finals is one for the ages. 25 points in the 3rd quarter on a sprained ankle. Played with immense heart. We never got to see Stockton as THE MAN on his team. Malone and Stockton were more like 1a and 1b. So, I would probably pick Isiah.

Btw, your list is fine. I'd have Isiah 3rd and Stockton 4th. Payton and Kidd are probably 5th and 6th. I haven't seen Bob Cousy play so I can't comment on him.

Isiah also had a great run in the 90 Finals. It's often overlooked, but he was a beast that year. I think it was his last great year.

[Da_Realist]

He wasn`t the Best Player or atleast he shared tha Spot with Dantley

huh??? :confusedshrug: Put that crack pipe down. Isiah Thomas is one of the greatest players/winners of all time. Dantley was good, but Isiah was still the leader of that team when Dantley was on it.

[Sir Charles]

Isiah did play on a stacked team. Late 80s Pistons were pretty damn talented. Great defensive team. One of the greatest backcourts of all time. However, Isiah was the teams best player, he was the one who raised his game the most. His game performance in the '88 finals is one for the ages. 25 points in the 3rd quarter on a sprained ankle. Played with immense heart. We never got to see Stockton as THE MAN on his team. Malone and Stockton were more like 1a and 1b. So, I would probably pick Isiah.

Btw, your list is fine. I'd have Isiah 3rd and Stockton 4th. Payton and Kidd are probably 5th and 6th. I haven't seen Bob Cousy play so I can't comment on him.

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/3734/48661364df3.gif

Stockton Sends Jazz to the Finals in 1997

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDi0Ce_Z5w

25 Points (54.3% FG) 13 Assits, 2 Steals and Off To The Finals Do To This Timid (but Silent Killer) White Boy

http://www.nba.com/media/history/stockton_254_92dream.jpg

Im strating to get the feeling that Stockton is also underrated becase he was that White not very Athletic, Not High Leaping or the Not Crossover Killer Playground Circus Players again :sleeping : . I guess every white player has to play like Tom Chambers to more applauded here...

[Sir Charles]

huh??? :confusedshrug: Put that crack pipe down. Isiah Thomas is one of the greatest players/winners of all time. Dantley was good, but Isiah was still the leader of that team when Dantley was on it.

Leader Yes but Not Better Player.. Dantley is so F--g underrated in this forum its insane....:confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

Im strating to get the feeling that Stockton is underrated becase he was that White not very Athletic, Not High Leaping or the Not Crossover Killer Playground Circus Players again :sleeping :

I'm starting to notice a theme here... Everytime someone disagrees with you, you pull out the "he's underrated because he's white and can't cross over like Iverson" or "he's underrated because he's not black and he can't jump out of the gym".

If you feel that way, prove it and back it up. Otherwise, it looks like you're :cry: because you can't prove your point.

[Biddy77]

I wasnt aware Karl only played two seasons...what happened during all the other years of his career. Also it wasnt like he was facing the prime MJ and Pip...There are a ton of team that could have beaten the later version of the Bulls.

what was he doing the rest of his career? are you serious?

only averaging 25ppg, 10rpg, shooting 51% from the floor, and being a f**king iron man, playing 80+ games in a season 17 out of 19 years of his career (one of the two years he actually missed games was the lockout-shortened year, he played 49 of the 50 games).

0 losing seasons his entire NBA career. ZERO. think about that.

his 19 years in the NBA:

19 42+ win seasons.
9 50+ win seasons.
3 60+ win seasons.

10 times went to the second round or farther.
6 times went to the WCF of farther.
3 times in the NBA Finals.

"what happened all the other years of his career?"

HALL OF FAME CAREER.

that's what happened the rest of his career.


btw, Sir Charles... if we're going to talk about shooting percentages, etc etc--you have to include those 3s, because those 2020 attempts point out something very important about barkley--his sometimes questionable shot selection. while i appreciate that his 2point fg% was higher than malone's he still felt justified firing up 2020 3pa with a career average of .266, and a career high of .338 (2nd best .305, every other year he was below 30%). 1.8 avg attempts per game with a % that bad = bad decision to take that shot.

also... assists, turnovers, steals, blocks, all virtually identical for those two. karl malone was a better defender, so he gets the nod there. barkley's rebound numbers give him the nod in that category, although it's a lot closer than the race seems, because malone played 4 seasons more than barkley, and his later averages dropped his career avg number as he aged. scoring production, malone gets the nod. he took more shots, but given how close their career shooting % were (again, especially considering that the last 4 years of malone's career brought his numbers down), that's a wash as well.

all that's left to separate them after stats are looks at intangibles like leadership, non-quantitated defense (ie, position defense, as opposed to blocks or steals)... and career accomplishments.

when we look at these things, we really start to see how awesome barkley was...

15 seasons:

only 3 losing seasons
5 40+ win seasons (btw, two of these were 41-41 seasons)
6 50+ win seasons
1 60+ win seasons

2 seasons with 0 playoffs (he made it to the playoffs in one losing season)
8 years 2nd round or farther
2 Conference Finals
1 NBA Finals


barkley's individual accolades:
1 NBA MVP
5 All NBA First Team selections
5 All NBA Second Team selections
1 All NBA Third Team selections
11 NBA All Star selections

in total, Barkley received 11 All NBA selections. that's pretty amazing.

ready to s**t your pants? here are Malone's individual accomplishments. bearing in mind, these are selected by people who are looking beyond the numbers, and Malone was hardly controversial in his selections:

2 NBA MVPs
10 (TEN!) All NBA First Team selections
2 All NBA Second Team selections
1 All NBA Third Team Selections

for a total of 13 All NBA selections. it bears pointing out that while barkley had 11 total... malone nearly matched that with First Team selections alone, falling short by 1.

and...

3 All NBA Defensive First Team selections
1 All NBA Defensive Second Team selections

4-0 in favor of Malone.


so, Sir Charles... it's not just me who is a "chump" apparently... it's everyone who was around while those two were playing. everyone who was around during the selection processes. everyone who (like me) actually WATCHED both guys' careers unfold, and saw beyond the (virtually identical) stats.


or, i guess it could just be that you, Sir Charles, are right. me, the coaches, GMs, and players of the NBA could all be wrong.

owned.

[AirJordan23]

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/3734/48661364df3.gif

Stockton Sends Jazz to the Finals in 1997

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDi0Ce_Z5w

25 Points (54.3% FG) 13 Assits, 2 Steals and Off To The Finals Do To This Timid (but Silent Killer) White Boy

http://www.nba.com/media/history/stockton_254_92dream.jpg

Im strating to get the feeling that Stockton is also underrated becase he was that White not very Athletic, Not High Leaping or the Not Crossover Killer Playground Circus Players again :sleeping : . I guess every white player has to play like Tom Chambers to more applauded here...
:wtf:
I know about that game 6 performance against Houston in '97. Stockton went loose in the final 3 minutes or so and had like 11 points in a row and the gamewinning 3. I think you misunderstood my point. I'm saying Stockton wasn't the man on his team in the sense he wasn't the ONLY franchise player. Something like LeBron is for the Cavs right now.

[Sir Charles]

I'm starting to notice a theme here... Everytime someone disagrees with you, you pull out the "he's underrated because he's white and can't cross over like Iverson" or "he's underrated because he's not black and he can't jump out of the gym".

If you feel that way, prove it and back it up. Otherwise, it looks like you're :cry: because you can't prove your point.

I have backed it up...Stockton was the Clutch Player for the Jazz and THEE TOTAL GAME CREATOR...

HE DESIGNED THE GAME TO MAKE MALONE GREATER AND HIS TEAMATES GREATER...THAN THEY WHERE!

Also..Duncan is hated by many because he is not the flashy type too:confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

what was he doing the rest of his career? are you serious?

only averaging 25ppg, 10rpg, shooting 51% from the floor, and being a f**king iron man, playing 80+ games in a season 17 out of 19 years of his career (one of the two years he actually missed games was the lockout-shortened year, he played 49 of the 50 games).

0 losing seasons his entire NBA career. ZERO. think about that.

his 19 years in the NBA:

19 42+ win seasons.
9 50+ win seasons.
3 60+ win seasons.

10 times went to the second round or farther.
6 times went to the WCF of farther.
3 times in the NBA Finals.

"what happened all the other years of his career?"

HALL OF FAME CAREER.

that's what happened the rest of his career.


btw, Sir Charles... if we're going to talk about shooting percentages, etc etc--you have to include those 3s, because those 2020 attempts point out something very important about barkley--his sometimes questionable shot selection. while i appreciate that his 2point fg% was higher than malone's he still felt justified firing up 2020 3pa with a career average of .266, and a career high of .338 (2nd best .305, every other year he was below 30%). 1.8 avg attempts per game with a % that bad = bad decision to take that shot.

also... assists, turnovers, steals, blocks, all virtually identical for those two. karl malone was a better defender, so he gets the nod there. barkley's rebound numbers give him the nod in that category, although it's a lot closer than the race seems, because malone played 4 seasons more than barkley, and his later averages dropped his career avg number as he aged. scoring production, malone gets the nod. he took more shots, but given how close their career shooting % were (again, especially considering that the last 4 years of malone's career brought his numbers down), that's a wash as well.

all that's left to separate them after stats are looks at intangibles like leadership, non-quantitated defense (ie, position defense, as opposed to blocks or steals)... and career accomplishments.

when we look at these things, we really start to see how awesome barkley was...

15 seasons:

only 3 losing seasons
5 40+ win seasons (btw, two of these were 41-41 seasons)
6 50+ win seasons
1 60+ win seasons

2 seasons with 0 playoffs (he made it to the playoffs in one losing season)
8 years 2nd round or farther
2 Conference Finals
1 NBA Finals


barkley's individual accolades:
1 NBA MVP
5 All NBA First Team selections
5 All NBA Second Team selections
1 All NBA Third Team selections
11 NBA All Star selections

in total, Barkley received 11 All NBA selections. that's pretty amazing.

ready to s**t your pants? here are Malone's individual accomplishments. bearing in mind, these are selected by people who are looking beyond the numbers, and Malone was hardly controversial in his selections:

2 NBA MVPs
10 (TEN!) All NBA First Team selections
2 All NBA Second Team selections
1 All NBA Third Team Selections

for a total of 13 All NBA selections. it bears pointing out that while barkley had 11 total... malone nearly matched that with First Team selections alone, falling short by 1.

and...

3 All NBA Defensive First Team selections
1 All NBA Defensive Second Team selections

4-0 in favor of Malone.


so, Sir Charles... it's not just me who is a "chump" apparently... it's everyone who was around while those two were playing. everyone who was around during the selection processes. everyone who (like me) actually WATCHED both guys' careers unfold, and saw beyond the (virtually identical) stats.


or, i guess it could just be that you, Sir Charles, are right. me, the coaches, GMs, and players of the NBA could all be wrong.

owned.

I actually think Barkley was a better player, but I gotta give it up. This is a nice post. Btw, I completely forgot Malone won 2 MVP's. Admittedly, I slept right through the 99 season :oldlol:

[Sir Charles]

:wtf:
I know about that game 6 performance against Houston in '97. Stockton went loose in the final 3 minutes or so and had like 11 points in a row and the gamewinning 3. I think you misunderstood my point. I'm saying Stockton wasn't the man on his team in the sense he wasn't the ONLY franchise player. Something like LeBron is for the Cavs right now.

Agreed but he was the TRUE LEADER, CLUTCH PLAYER, TOTAL GAME CREATOR...IT WAS HE WHO MADE OTHERS AND MALONE BETTER...NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND...:confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

I have backed it up...Stockton was the Clutch Player for the Jazz and THEE TOTAL GAME CREATOR...

HE DESIGNED THE GAME TO MAKE MALONE GREATER AND HIS TEAMATES GREATER...THAN THEY WHERE!

Also..Duncan is hated by many because he is not the flashy type too:confusedshrug:

No... I meant you have to prove that people are hating on your guys because they are white or slow or whatever. What makes you say that? I think Isiah was a better player than Stockton but it has nothing to do with his skin color or type of game. Both players are great, so you're going to have some dissension (like Barkley/Malone). If you feel like it boils down to those other things, you have to prove it or it just looks like you're crying because you one or two people disagree with you.

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Kevin Garnett, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade.

[AirJordan23]

Isiah also had a great run in the 90 Finals. It's often overlooked, but he was a beast that year. I think it was his last great year.
Yes, he had a great series. 28/7/5 and Finals MVP. :applause:

[Biddy77]

Agreed but he was the TRUE LEADER, CLUTCH PLAYER, TOTAL GAME CREATOR...IT WAS HE WHO MADE OTHERS AND MALONE BETTER...NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND...:confusedshrug:

you're flat out wrong in trying to say that malone didn't *also* make stockton look better.

those guys had an even impact on each other's games. there's no doubt about it. while each guy proved they could score on their own (they didn't run the pick and roll EVERY play. malone posted up a ton, stockton shot and drove a lot, showed he could shoot effectively spotting up *or* off the dribble, etc), facilitate an offense through them (like when the jazz posted up malone and ran dive cuts off him), etc.

each guy knew how to make the game incredibly easy for the guys around them. both of them were truly great passers, both in terms of having the vision to see the passing lane, and in terms of having the ability to deliver the right pass, at the right time, to put a teammate in position to score.

[AirJordan23]

Agreed but he was the TRUE LEADER, CLUTCH PLAYER, TOTAL GAME CREATOR...IT WAS HE WHO MADE OTHERS AND MALONE BETTER...NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND...:confusedshrug:
I never denied that. I gave credit to Stockton for being clutch in my earlier posts. He ran the PNR with Malone to perfection. However, Malone is considered greater than Stockton for what he achieved by many people.

[Younggrease]

what was he doing the rest of his career? are you serious?

only averaging 25ppg, 10rpg, shooting 51% from the floor, and being a f**king iron man, playing 80+ games in a season 17 out of 19 years of his career (one of the two years he actually missed games was the lockout-shortened year, he played 49 of the 50 games).

0 losing seasons his entire NBA career. ZERO. think about that.

his 19 years in the NBA:

19 42+ win seasons.
9 50+ win seasons.
3 60+ win seasons.

10 times went to the second round or farther.
6 times went to the WCF of farther.
3 times in the NBA Finals.

"what happened all the other years of his career?"

HALL OF FAME CAREER.

that's what happened the rest of his career.

owned.

Talk about irrelevant information...Thats not owned...I was responded to a specific premise..."that Jordan was the only reason Malone didnt win a title". All you did was waster your time putting up irrelvant information to combat that point.

[zay_24]

Garnett, anyone?
Nope, never won a ring until he had 2 other superstars to help him, and got to play in one of the weakest conferences in league history.

[sharpshooter88]

Talk about irrelevant information...Thats not owned...I was responded to a specific premise..."that Jordan was the only reason Malone didnt win a title". All you did was waster your time putting up irrelvant information to combat that point.


i'm about to get in this right now.

uhh... how is all that information not enough to support that Karl Malone was a beast during his NBA career. His numbers prove it. Although Jordan did stop Malone from gettin a ring. that doesn't prove Malone wasn't a boss.

Stockton was there for him to help him throughout his career, but Malone would still be who he is today without John Stockton!

[Younggrease]

i'm about to get in this right now.

uhh... how is all that information not enough to support that Karl Malone was a beast during his NBA career. His numbers prove it. Although Jordan did stop Malone from gettin a ring. that doesn't prove Malone wasn't a boss.

Stockton was there for him to help him throughout his career, but Malone would still be who he is today without John Stockton!

who the hell said Malone wasnt a beast...who the hell said stockton wasnt a top 4 pg ever?

All Im saying is that the common saying that the reason Malone didnt win a ring is because of Jordan is just plain false...

[sharpshooter88]

who the hell said Malone wasnt a beast...who the hell said stockton wasnt a top 4 pg ever?

All Im saying is that the common saying that the reason Malone didnt win a ring is because of Jordan is just plain false...


o fasho...i thought u were disagreeing with Biddy77's stats about malone. I just had to back up malone.

Malone should've won a ring and could've if Lakers did there thing in the 2003-04 season, but other than that Jordan did stop Malone from winning a ring in the early years of Malone's career on Jazz.

[Sir Charles]

Season 3-Point FGA (3-Point Field Goal Attempts)

Barkley: 2020
Malone: 310
McHale: 157
Duncan: 126

Season 2-Point FG%

1-CHARLES BARKLEY: 58.13% FG% (21.6 PPG)(1st Option/Focal Scorer)

2-KEVIN MCHALE: 55.75% FG% (17.7 PPG) (2nd Scoring)

3-KARL MALONE: 51.90% FG% (24.8 PPG)(1st Option/Focal Scorer)

4-TIM DUNCAN: 51.06% FG% (21.4 PPG) (1st Option/Focal Scorer)

6.23% Efficency Difference (Same Gap Between a 51% Inside Scorer vs a 45% Inside Scorer) :hammerhead:

Play-Offs 2-Point FG%

***Clutch Time. This is When A Player Faces the Toughest Of Competitions.

1-KEVIN MCHALE: 56.30% FG% (18.7 PPG) (2nd Scoring Option)

2-CHARLES BARKLEY: 55.13% FG (22.5 PPG)(1st Scoring Option/Focal Scorer)

3-TIM DUNCAN: 50.43% FG% (23.3 PPG) (1st Scoring Option/Focal Scorer)

4-KARL MALONE: 46.56% FG% (24.6 PPG) (1st Scoring Option/Focal Scorer)

8.57% Efficency Difference (Same Gap Between a 55% Inside Scorer vs a 46.4% Inside Scorer) :hammerhead:

Malone a Better Inside Scorer than Barkley? :roll: :roll:

[Sir Charles]

I never denied that. I gave credit to Stockton for being clutch in my earlier posts. He ran the PNR with Malone to perfection. However, Malone is considered greater than Stockton for what he achieved by many people.

Most People don`t know the game....They think MVP = Better Player....Launching 25 FGA PG is Great etc etc

[Sir Charles]

o fasho...i thought u were disagreeing with Biddy77's stats about malone. I just had to back up malone.

Malone should've won a ring and could've if Lakers did there thing in the 2003-04 season, but other than that Jordan did stop Malone from winning a ring in the early years of Malone's career on Jazz.

Late Years...

[Heilige]

top 15 is VERY elite company, and i think people are really showing a lack of big picture perspective assuming that wade and cp3 even have a chance of sniffing that level of prestige.

think about all the guys who currently are accepted as the top 10 or 15 in league history...

do people already have such huge hard-ons for those guys that they're going to throw it right out there that we should expect these guys to be better than the guys whose names currently get mentioned in that talk?

shaq and duncan, top 15, no question. kobe is probably top 15-20. lebron stands a good chance of being one of the two best SFs of all time when all is said and done. i'll give you 4 of 6. cp3 and wade, though? seriously?

pull your junk out of the rubber ******. stop this fantasy now. if you let it carry on, all you're going to be left with is a mess to clean up, and a handful of shame.



Says the guy who thinks Brandon Roy can be a future top 10 of all time..:rolleyes:



he's not only a future top 10 player, he's a top 10 player in the NBA *right now*. packaging his ability with his humility, his ownership of any mistakes he might make (and they are rare), the confidence he inspires in his teammates by sharing with them so willingly, and his completely anti-Maggette attitude (Mag = MEMEME, Roy = TEAMTEAMTEAM), and there's no other guy i'd rather have in Portland.

[AirJordan23]

Says the guy who thinks Brandon Roy can be a future top 10 of all time..:rolleyes:
He obviously meant top 10 player in the league. Not all time.

[AirJordan23]

Most People don`t know the game....They think MVP = Better Player....Launching 25 FGA PG is Great etc etc
Well, people have certain criterias to rank players. I personally tend to compare them individually, their longevity and what they achieved.

[Sir Charles]

Well, people have certain criterias to rank players. I personally tend to compare them individually, their longevity and what they achieved.

I compare them from a) level of skills (including clutch time), b) level of efficiency (backed up statistically) and from what i saw impact wise per game between their primes: ages 22 to 32 year where Malone was simpley in a lower level than Barkley :confusedshrug: . When Barkley F****ed up his back in 1994 and his knees began destroying him by the 1995 season then thats where Malone started getting his advantage over Barkley, never before :no: infact total opposite!. A that time both where 32 years old...a player doesn`t get better after ages 32....:rolleyes: in fact physicall you began to tair down at ages 29-30....

Basketball is a Team Game...so all that other Bull (even Barkley`s MVP, which he deserved initally in 1990 by miles! is all Bull**** just because he was put in a Better Team :rolleeyes:) has nothing to do with who is the better player any how. Longevity has nothing do with being a better player either:no: .

Lets say Duncan plays till age 42 as a C and maintains a certain good level then this other Center named Shaq: whose level of game diminushes between ages 33-34 do to injuries and and retires at age 38. Do those other years from Shaqs 33-34 year old spam that Duncan played above him make Duncan a better player than Shaq between Shaqs between ages 20-32 prime spam? NOT EVEN F-CKING CLOSE!!!!, ANY ONE OVER 23 KNOWS THIS OR SHOULD ATLEAST... :hammerhead: :sleepin: ...:confusedshrug:

No Player gets Better after ages 33-34 at most you just maintaing certain skills while your experience helps your physical falling less harmfull..

Thats like saying Maradona from WC 1990 (age 30) was better than Maradona (at age 26) in WC 1986 :hammerhead: Or that Zidane better in WC 2006 (age 34) was better than in WC 1998 at (age 26) :hammerhead: . Pele for example in his total prime had to be destroyed by the other team (Portugal) for this one to have an option in 1966 (age 28= his total prime!!!) which along 1962 (age 24) was his best WCs!. In 1970 he had a superior squad than the other WCs (easier to play) and yet somewhat prime still (age 32) he did not have the OVERALL IMPACT and Unstoppablness he once had before :confusedshrug:

GET REAL!

[AirJordan23]

I compare them from a) level of skills (including clutch time), b) level of efficiency (backed up statistically) and from what i saw impact wise per game between their primes: ages 22 to 32 year where Malone was simpley in a lower level than Barkley :confusedshrug: . When Barkley F****ed up his back in 1994 and his knees began destroying him by the 1995 season then thats where Malone started getting his advantage over Barkley, never before :no: infact total opposite!. A that time both where 32 years old...a player doesn`t get better after ages 32....:rolleyes: in fact physicall you began to tair down at ages 29-30....

Basketball is a Team Game...so all that other Bull (even Barkley`s MVP, which he deserved initally in 1990 by miles! is all Bull**** just because he was put in a Better Team :rolleeyes:) has nothing to do with who is the better player any how. Longevity has nothing do with being a better player either:no: .

Lets say Duncan plays till age 42 as a C and maintains a certain good level then this other Center named Shaq: whose level of game diminushes between ages 33-34 do to injuries and and retires at age 38. Do those other years from Shaqs 33-34 year old spam that Duncan played above him make Duncan a better player than Shaq between Shaqs between ages 20-32 prime spam? NOT EVEN F-CKING CLOSE!!!!, ANY ONE OVER 23 KNOWS THIS OR SHOULD ATLEAST... :hammerhead: :sleepin: ...:confusedshrug:

No Player gets Better after ages 33-34 at most you just maintaing certain skills while your experience helps your physical falling less harmfull..

Thats like saying Maradona from WC 1990 (age 30) was better than Maradona (at age 26) in WC 1986 :hammerhead: Or that Zidane better in WC 2006 (age 34) was better than in WC 1998 at (age 26) :hammerhead: . Pele for example in his total prime had to be destroyed by the other team (Portugal) for this one to have an option in 1966 (age 28= his total prime!!!) which along 1962 (age 24) was his best WCs!. In 1970 he had a superior squad than the other WCs (easier to play) and yet somewhat prime still (age 32) he did not have the OVERALL IMPACT and Unstoppablness he once had before :confusedshrug:

GET REAL!
Not sure how what you quoted is related to most of your post. But, longevity does matter you know. It shows the players conditioning and how he has maintained his body. His work ethic. That does result in a higher level of play later on in their career.

The Duncan example you provided just means that Duncan was able to maintain a higher level of play than Shaq later on in his career. Doesn't mean he was a better player. Duncan was never a better player than Shaq was from 97-02. Thats a fact. But, I'm pretty sure Duncan will be able to maintain a higher level of play because he seems like a hardworker, motivated person. Shaq, not so much. Shaq would quit on your team if he isn't satisfied with his teammates. He already did that in Miami.

Awards like MVP, DPOY etc showcase your individual dominance and enhance your legacy. Thats a fact which you can't deny. It's true that basketball is a team game and winning is what matters the most. But, awards are something that put the icing on the cake.

I don't know what the hell are you saying in the last part of your post.

[Sir Charles]

Not sure how what you quoted is related to most of your post. But, longevity does matter you know. It shows the players conditioning and how he has maintained his body. His work ethic. That does result in a higher level of play later on in their career.

That shoes sportmanship...and discipline off the cout..but on court give me skill, talend, efficiency, clutch game and balls :confusedshrug: ....On the other hand i agree it does result in a higher level of play later on their careers when physical gifts that are big time impactfull star to dimisnish but in my opinion that has nothing to do with PLAYING THE GAME

The Duncan example you provided just means that Duncan was able to maintain a higher level of play than Shaq later on in his career. Doesn't mean he was a better player. Duncan was never a better player than Shaq was from 97-02. Thats a fact. But, I'm pretty sure Duncan will be able to maintain a higher level of play because he seems like a hardworker, motivated person. Shaq, not so much. Shaq would quit on your team if he isn't satisfied with his teammates. He already did that in Miami.

Its his contexture (Shaq, Barkley etc) WIDE MUSCULE TONED DUDES ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE FREAKS THAT CAN RUN, ARE AGIL AND LEAP....have more difficulty maintaining health because their body type affects their knees, back and overball body tremendously. They have MORE NATURAL MUSCULE than the BONE CAN HOLD and THEY ASSIMILATE/GAIN FAT EASIER...While...THINNER FIBRED MUSCULE TONED DUDES like Jabbar, Malone, MJ, Bryant, Parish...etc have the other advantage but their overall PHYSICAL IMPACT is not as STRONG.

Awards like MVP, DPOY etc showcase your individual dominance and enhance your legacy. Thats a fact which you can't deny. It's true that basketball is a team game and winning is what matters the most. But, awards are something that put the icing on the cake.

MVP = Popularity Contest, Have The Right Smile, Have The Right Words, Have The Right Team, Have The Right Media etc...sorry :no: can`t agree with you there...i am not baised in a Team Sport ...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Also it wasnt like he was facing the prime MJ and Pip...There are a ton of team that could have beaten the later version of the Bulls.

1997 Bulls? No. There's been one team who could possibly beat the '97 Bulls since 1997, and that's the 2001 Lakers.

1998 Bulls? Only 2-3 teams with a chance (2001/2002 Lakers, possibly the 2005 Spurs). Certainly not a "ton."