Howard Or Yao

[Jakeh008]

WHO IS BETTER RIGHT NOW AT THIS POINT????


HOWARD IS

[iTruWarrior]

Yao Ming, Very close though. It has more to do than head to head matchups though.

[KenneBell]

D-Howitzer. Yao is just one of those guys he doesn't do well against. Every player has one. Otherwise he's a dominant inside force.

[Jakeh008]

I Say Howard......

He Is Shorter

But Domintates Everything.....except yao....go figure

[artest 93]

D-Howitzer. Yao is just one of those guys he doesn't do well against. Every player has one. Otherwise he's a dominant inside force.

I guess that's because the league has very few centers left :roll:

I would pick DH too but I don't think is capable of putting up "dominating" numbers against players that actually have a name.

[iTruWarrior]

I Say Howard......

He Is Shorter

But Domintates Everything.....except yao....go figure
When has he dominated Shaq? Not sure if you realize this, but Howard's stats are exactly the same whether his team wins or loses. Yao's stats are lop-sided he averages 22/10 when he wins and 15/9 when his team loses. Shows Yao has a bigger impact, and that if he produces he wins.

Not to mention, Howard often struggles against the elite defensinve centers and the elite defensives in the league. Yao dominates all, terrible or great defensive.

That's why Yao is better, and Yao can close out games. You can't ask Howard to close out games for the Magic, if they did they would be 0-x in close games.

[wTFaMonkey]

I Say Howard......

He Is Shorter

But Domintates Everything.....except yao....go figure

But Yao dominates everything but....


:confusedshrug:

[inclinerator]

yao, is this a joke. Yao is so skilled offensively than dwight. dwight only has defense on yao and it's not even by that much. Yao can close out games.

[KeylessEntry]

WHO IS BETTER RIGHT NOW AT THIS POINT????


HOWARD IS

Dwight Howard

[iTruWarrior]

yao, is this a joke. Yao is so skilled offensively than dwight. dwight only has defense on yao and it's not even by that much. Yao can close out games.
But...But.... Dwight has better stats! He domiantes! He wore a cape! He has a better PER!

[Lakas Fan Yo]

I take Yao because of free throw shooting, he's more skilled and he makes it harder to get points against in the paint. He's more of a guy you can run an offense through inside out and he has more effect on the game helping his team get so many open shots.

No knock against Howard though, who is also a great player in his own way obviously.

[shawbryant]

Yao will start to decline sooner than you can imagine.

[LA_Showtime]

If you can guarantee that Yao Ming will stay healthy, then he's my choice.

[artest 93]

Yao will start to decline sooner than you can imagine.

I just love the facts that support your claim! Repped!

While a decline is inevitable, Yao has been playing fantastic this year. Unfortunately under Adelman's system, there is no true focal point and that takes a bit away from Yao. Also, the Rockets badly need an unselfish point guard that can pass inside.

He's basically 20/10 with 13 fga and very few touches.

[iTruWarrior]

I just love the facts that support your claim! Repped!

While a decline is inevitable, Yao has been playing fantastic this year. Unfortunately under Adelman's system, there is no true focal point and that takes a bit away from Yao. Also, the Rockets badly need an unselfish point guard that can pass inside.

He's basically 20/10 with 13 fga and very few touches.
True, but didnt you just say Howard was better earlier? Or did you say you want Howard on the Rockets instead?

[Maniak]

As a rockets hater, I gotta give credit where credit is due to Yao. Im not saying I think he is better than Dwight, I am still undecided on that.

Anyways, for a guy who doesnt get all the touches and is not really the guy you think of when you think Rockets, he still puts up nice numbers. Dude is good. I do wonder how he would do in a system where he gets ALOT of touches and is built around.

[artest 93]

True, but didnt you just say Howard was better earlier? Or did you say you want Howard on the Rockets instead?

Yeah I did but that's mostly due to age and the pace of the NBA.

Also the fact that Yao struggles way too much late in the game due to stamina. This really changes my confidence with Yao in the playoffs. When Yao starts bending over for quick breathers, it starts getting ugly.

But again, if Yao had legit shooters around him, he'd thrive because not many would be willing (at least they shouldn't) to leave their guys to double/triple Yao. That's another advantage Yao has over DH. Yao's offensive game demands a lot of attention.

[iTruWarrior]

Yeah I did but that's mostly due to age and the pace of the NBA.

Also the fact that Yao struggles way too much late in the game due to stamina. This really changes my confidence with Yao in the playoffs. When Yao starts bending over for quick breathers, it starts getting ugly.

But again, if Yao had legit shooters around him, he'd thrive because not many would be willing (at least they shouldn't) to leave their guys to double/triple Yao. That's another advantage Yao has over DH. Yao's offensive game requires a lot of attention.
Yao is much more useful and valuable in the playoffs than Howard.... The playoffs is when it slows down, Yao just needs some limited minutes... That's all.

He performed in the 2007 playoffs when he averaged 25/10 in the series. So..... I would take Howard for the future, but for now I will go with Yao Ming.

[shawbryant]

I just love the facts that support your claim! Repped!

While a decline is inevitable, Yao has been playing fantastic this year. Unfortunately under Adelman's system, there is no true focal point and that takes a bit away from Yao. Also, the Rockets badly need an unselfish point guard that can pass inside.

He's basically 20/10 with 13 fga and very few touches.
OK,the fact is just he's aisan. Well, I am not a racist at all, cause I am asian too. And the other fact is his center position. As we know in general centers begin to decline earlier than guards.

[iTruWarrior]

OK,the fact is just he's aisan. Well, I am not a racist at all, cause I am asian too. And the other fact is his center position. As we know in general centers begin to decline earlier than guards.
Ever heard of Hakeem Olajuwon? He reached his peak and prime in his 30's... Yao can be the same way his game different has been and never will be based off of athletic ability.

Hakeem regressed athletic ability when he reached his prime, but mentally he was much better. I can see Yao being the same way especially since he's done playing for Team China.

[TMac&Luther]

Yao will start to decline sooner than you can imagine.

Decline, is he going to become slow and unathletic.

Yes he will decline, but unlike most big men that are stars because they're gifted with extreme athleticism for their size.....Yao's game isn't built like that at all.

Deke says he's 42 (who the hell knows) and he's just as athletic as Yao is right now.

[godofgods]

Yao. Anybody who says otherwise is either racist or doesn't understand basketball or both.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont think Yao being asian has much to do with who people would pick. He has had one healthy year in the last 4, is 29 and has never won a playoff series, and despite having the skill to score on damn near anyone any time often fades away for long stretches. Part of that is coaching(lot of it even) but hes too good to be so irrelevant for such long periods of time. He wont ever get credit for being elite until it looks like he wants to be.

Yao is more skilled than Howard but hes hardly more dominant or effective because hes too too unselfish. Howard also has a problem with fading away on offense but hes a much more active defender and rebounder so he is rarely just out there with you wondering where he went.

Yao is a more effective defender than hes given credit for but Howard goes after it.

Howard seems to want to be a great player while Yao seems to want to be a great teammate. If I could make Yao aggressive id want him over Howard(for one season if healthy).

As things are?

Id take Howard. Im not sure hes ever been hurt and you can tell he wants to be the best. He seems more driven than Yao. Not talking off the court workethic either. Howard seems to want to dominate. If Yao wanted to be great like Howard does hed be a 30/10 player. But hes a little too passive. He might be the most unstoppable offensive weapon in the NBA but ive seen him go whole halfs and get like 2 good shots. Howard comes much closer to doing all he can win or lose. Yao coasts too much. Not all on him. Coaches should push him. force hi mthe ball. But for whatever reasons...Yao isnt as dominant as he could be.

And I know hes not an issue now but...Amare? I never thought about it but hes kinda the mid point between Dwight and Yao while lacking the extremes that make both of them great. Doesnt have Yaos size or polish around the basket or Howards athletic ability and relentlessness. Hes got just enough of both to be great.

[BonyFaceNDong]

I dont think Yao being asian has much to do with who people would pick. He has had one healthy year in the last 4, is 29 and has never won a playoff series, and despite having the skill to score on damn near anyone any time often fades away for long stretches. Part of that is coaching(lot of it even) but hes too good to be so irrelevant for such long periods of time. He wont ever get credit for being elite until it looks like he wants to be.

Yao is more skilled than Howard but hes hardly more dominant or effective because hes too too unselfish. Howard also has a problem with fading away on offense but hes a much more active defender and rebounder so he is rarely just out there with you wondering where he went.

Yao is a more effective defender than hes given credit for but Howard goes after it.

Howard seems to want to be a great player while Yao seems to want to be a great teammate. If I could make Yao aggressive id want him over Howard(for one season if healthy).

As things are?

Id take Howard. Im not sure hes ever been hurt and you can tell he wants to be the best. He seems more driven than Yao. Not talking off the court workethic either. Howard seems to want to dominate. If Yao wanted to be great like Howard does hed be a 30/10 player. But hes a little too passive. He might be the most unstoppable offensive weapon in the NBA but ive seen him go whole halfs and get like 2 good shots. Howard comes much closer to doing all he can win or lose. Yao coasts too much. Not all on him. Coaches should push him. force hi mthe ball. But for whatever reasons...Yao isnt as dominant as he could be.

And I know hes not an issue now but...Amare? I never thought about it but hes kinda the mid point between Dwight and Yao while lacking the extremes that make both of them great. Doesnt have Yaos size or polish around the basket or Howards athletic ability and relentlessness. Hes got just enough of both to be great.

Yao has never been surrounded with shooters and great PGs. He did average 25/9 under JVG before that freak accident. But under Adelman, the plan is everybody gets to shoot, Artest is selfish, Brooks has no idea how to get the ball to Yao, and Yao is just too nice to yell at them.

[Vipertonna]

Dwight Howard, has a large amount of stamina over Yao and is just more of a dominant force in the paint both on offense and defense

A few things that Yao is better on is passing and shooting an outside jumper

[TMac&Luther]

Dwight Howard, has a large amount of stamina over Yao and is just more of a dominant force in the paint both on offense and defense

A few things that Yao is better on is passing and shooting an outside jumper

Umm, Dwight doesnt come close to being the "dominant force in the piant on offense" if he did, he wouldn't have a issue with Yao.

He's a player that's only effective within feet of the rim....outside of that he falls the hell off.

Like I've been saying for 3 damn years now....."until Howard develops post skills, he'll never be the best center in the league" Post Skills.....Dwight needs to learn them pronto.

[PistolPete]

Yao is currently owning Howard at this point so it's Yao. Only thing Yao lacks is speed, but he's unstoppable in the paint. When Howard is getting his SHlT rejected, then you know who's the man.

[dreaming121]

I don't watch too many Magic games. But, does Dwight's "post" move consist of only driving then spin then layup or dunk? I swear I've only seen him do that on this game.

[Toizumi]

Yao is more skilled offensively and plays good team defense. But Dwight is much more agressive in going to the rim and rebounding. He plays with more intensity and his number show it. Yao has better post moves and a much better shot but he's averaging less points on a lower FG% (still very good though). Howard is limited offensively, but he knows his limitations. He's also the best rebounder and arguably the best shotblocker in the league. I'd take Howard.

[TMac&Luther]

Yao is more skilled offensively and plays good team defense. But Dwight is much more agressive in going to the rim and rebounding. He plays with more intensity and his number show it. Yao has better post moves and a much better shot but he's averaging less points on a lower FG% (still very good though). Howard is limited offensively, but he knows his limitations. He's also the best rebounder and arguably the best shotblocker in the league. I'd take Howard.

but when he plays against the best bigs in the league and playoff type teams that can keep him from the basket he gets his teeth kicked in.

Funny how the "best rebounder and shot blocker in the league" can never outrebound or out shot block little ol' Yao Ming....you know the crappy rebounder/shot blocker who's 7'6 and is a underachiever in that department due to his size...I mean he is 7'6, he should be grabbing 25 rebounds a game and blocking 10 shots per game.

[Kblaze8855]

Like I've been saying for 3 damn years now....."until Howard develops post skills, he'll never be the best center in the league" Post Skills.....Dwight needs to learn them pronto.

He leads the league in rebounds and blocks while scoring 21 a game on shaq like shooting percentages on a team thats gonna win 60 games. I dare say hes doing fine as is.

Centers have always needed what Howard does just as much as what Yao does. Maybe more even. Post scoring isnt really more important for a bigman than his defense and rebounding. Maybe in some situations. But he puts up 20+ a night doing what he does now just as Yao can still impact the D with his size and rebound pretty well. There is little to suggest Yao is more effective than Dwight really. Post skills alone dont make you better than anyone without them. Rony Seikaly had more post skills and was probably even a better rebounder than Zo....doesnt make him more effective.

Besides if you have been saying it the last 3 years.....Yao has not been healthy in any of them. Being injury prone doesnt make you a worse player but it does make you unreliable. Yao has been healthy by his standards this year and missed more games than Howard has his entire career.

I dont think yao ever has or ever will be considered the best center in the NBA. maybe for a minute in 06 or so when Shaq was showing age and Amare was out and for a little while in 07 as well. But Shaq came on strong in 06 and still ended up first team. Amare owned 07 really. Now Howard likely holds the top spot the next 7-8 years at least along with whoever comes up.

Yao is coming up on 30 fast and while hes still very very good hes not likely to get any better unless he suddenly gets Shaqs mentality soon.

I dont think he will ever be as dominant as he could have been. He has it in him talent wise...but I dont think hes got the heart. Just too passive to be all he can be. Id like to see him win a little in the playoffs though if only to not be one of those "Never won" guys like tmac. Hes hard to dislike.

[TMac&Luther]

He leads the league in rebounds and blocks while scoring 21 a game on shaq like shooting percentages on a team thats gonna win 60 games. I dare say hes doing fine as is.

Centers have always needed what Howard does just as much as what Yao does. Maybe more even. Post scoring isnt really more important for a bigman than his defense and rebounding. Maybe in some situations. But he puts up 20+ a night doing what he does now just as Yao can still impact the D with his size and rebound pretty well. There is little to suggest Yao is more effective than Dwight really. Post skills alone dont make you better than anyone without them. Rony Seikaly had more post skills and was probably even a better rebounder than Zo....doesnt make him more effective.

Besides if you have been saying it the last 3 years.....Yao has not been healthy in any of them. Being injury prone doesnt make you a worse player but it does make you unreliable. Yao has been healthy by his standards this year and missed more games than Howard has his entire career.

I dont think yao ever has or ever will be considered the best center in the NBA. maybe for a minute in 06 or so when Shaq was showing age and Amare was out and for a little while in 07 as well. But Shaq came on strong in 06 and still ended up first team. Amare owned 07 really. Now Howard likely holds the top spot the next 7-8 years at least along with whoever comes up.

Yao is coming up on 30 fast and while hes still very very good hes not likely to get any better unless he suddenly gets Shaqs mentality soon.

I dont think he will ever be as dominant as he could have been. He has it in him talent wise...but I dont think hes got the heart. Just too passive to be all he can be. Id like to see him win a little in the playoffs though if only to not be one of those "Never won" guys like tmac. Hes hard to dislike.

Sorry, but I'm not going to lie.......I didn't read 90% of what you just typed, it's too late.

All I saw was "Post scoring isnt really more important for a bigman than his defense and rebounding" and pretty much discarded everything else you typed....because that's a joke, LOL funny.

Let me say this again.....if Dwight never learns legit ass post moves, his team will never win shit....plain and simple. The day he does win crap without post moves, whoever reads this thread and the guy that posted the response above can feel free to bump this thread.

Again....Dwight won't win crap until he learns how to play the center position..(and as a long time Houston fan...I know all I need to know about the "CENTER POSITION" Athleticism will only get you and your team so far.

[Toizumi]

but when he plays against the best bigs in the league and playoff type teams that can keep him from the basket he gets his teeth kicked in.
Funny how the "best rebounder and shot blocker in the league" can never outrebound or out shot block little ol' Yao Ming....you know the crappy rebounder/shot blocker who's 7'6 and is a underachiever in that department due to his size...I mean he is 7'6, he should be grabbing 25 rebounds a game and blocking 10 shots per game.

Head to head matchup I

[thejumpa]

He leads the league in rebounds and blocks while scoring 21 a game on shaq like shooting percentages on a team thats gonna win 60 games. I dare say hes doing fine as is.

Centers have always needed what Howard does just as much as what Yao does. Maybe more even. Post scoring isnt really more important for a bigman than his defense and rebounding. Maybe in some situations. But he puts up 20+ a night doing what he does now just as Yao can still impact the D with his size and rebound pretty well. There is little to suggest Yao is more effective than Dwight really. Post skills alone dont make you better than anyone without them. Rony Seikaly had more post skills and was probably even a better rebounder than Zo....doesnt make him more effective.

Besides if you have been saying it the last 3 years.....Yao has not been healthy in any of them. Being injury prone doesnt make you a worse player but it does make you unreliable. Yao has been healthy by his standards this year and missed more games than Howard has his entire career.

I dont think yao ever has or ever will be considered the best center in the NBA. maybe for a minute in 06 or so when Shaq was showing age and Amare was out and for a little while in 07 as well. But Shaq came on strong in 06 and still ended up first team. Amare owned 07 really. Now Howard likely holds the top spot the next 7-8 years at least along with whoever comes up.

Yao is coming up on 30 fast and while hes still very very good hes not likely to get any better unless he suddenly gets Shaqs mentality soon.

I dont think he will ever be as dominant as he could have been. He has it in him talent wise...but I dont think hes got the heart. Just too passive to be all he can be. Id like to see him win a little in the playoffs though if only to not be one of those "Never won" guys like tmac. Hes hard to dislike.

Very good point. I love Yao but it really does seem like he just isn't built to be super aggressive. I love T-Mac but it seems like one of them needs to go or they need to rebuild around T-Mac and Yao....again. If someone were to come to the team and bring out the Shaq in him like I thought T-Mac and VG would do...it would be game over. An aggressive Yao could put up numbers like 25-30/14-16/4-5/......Maybe a Lebron/Wade FA signing could do it..

That being said...Yao is better than Dwight at this point. Howard doesn't have the offensive skills Yao has....

[KeylessEntry]

Sorry, but I'm not going to lie.......I didn't read 90% of what you just typed, it's too late.



Your loss. Kblaze made a fantastic post which accurately sums up the pros and cons of Howard or Yao. Its pretty obvious from the garbage you posted that you are just another rockets troll, so I dont know why I am even wasting my time telling you to wake up.

Anyway repped Kblaze for the wisdom.

[artest 93]

Yao has never been surrounded with shooters and great PGs. He did average 25/9 under JVG before that freak accident. But under Adelman, the plan is everybody gets to shoot, Artest is selfish, Brooks has no idea how to get the ball to Yao, and Yao is just too nice to yell at them.

This is like the most accurate post about Yao. :lol

[TMac&Luther]

Your loss. Kblaze made a fantastic post which accurately sums up the pros and cons of Howard or Yao. Its pretty obvious from the garbage you posted that you are just another rockets troll, so I dont know why I am even wasting my time telling you to wake up.

Anyway repped Kblaze for the wisdom.

Umm....not really "pal", every post you've made on this subject has been anti-Yao...so continue to slob that knob...it's what you're good at.

I made good points against Kblaze, and he's free to answer them.

Like I said....wake me when this kid learns post moves and Kblaze lost me when he said they weren't important.

[artest 93]

Dumbass....it's "you're lost" not "your lost" who the hell am I talking to, Charles Barkley?

lol.

[KeylessEntry]

Umm....not really "pal", every post you've made on this subject has been anti-Yao...so continue to slob that knob...it's what you're good at.

I made good points against Kblaze, and he's free to answer them.

Like I said....wake me when this kid learns post moves and Kblaze lost me when he said they weren't important.

I am not anti Yao, I just dont think he is as good as Dwight. Yao is easily the second best center in the NBA, and Shaq is probably the third.

Sure post moves are important. Other things are important too.

[Xsatyr]

I am not anti Yao, I just dont think he is as good as Dwight. Yao is easily the second best center in the NBA, and Shaq is probably the third.

Sure post moves are important. Other things are important too.
The problem I have with Dwight is that he can't score when he wants to. He has to let the game come to him, with Yao you can force feed him. Although fronting defense is something Yao has a huge problem with, scrubs often look like premier defenders.

[ronnymac]

How many times does yao have to dominate dwight for people to see before he gets his due appreciation.this board has lost the plot.btw,dont call me a blind rockets fan, i critisise yao when he has a bad game like anyother player who wears holly rockets unjform.

[yeaaaman]

Frst off to TMac&Luther, how can you reply to a post you haven't even read? Or maybe you did and didn't want to acknowledge what was being said.

In any case this thread is just called Howard or Yao. I personally would pick Howard. Maybe if the only 2 teams in the NBA were the Magic and the Rockets then I'd pick Yao since a lot of the reason for him being ahead of Howard in the eyes of some posters is his head to head results, but since there are 30 teams in the league and 82 games to be played a year, I'm going to have to go with Howard, especially with his year to year improvement. Yao is definitely more skilled when it comes to offense, but Kblaze made a good point, that skill alone doesn't necessarily make a player more effective.

[gpfanz]

But Yao dominates everything but....


:confusedshrug:

Yao's soft & yet Dwight cant stop him which means..:hammertime:

[Aidan]

I'd have to take Yao, although it's extremely close.
Yao has such a refined offensive game, and is a great presence on D.
Dwight needs to develop a 12footer and a go to move in the post.

[lolwut]

looking at their last 5 head to head clashes and you gotta say Yao is outplaying superman when they go up against one another.

March 11 2007

Yao: 37/7
Dwight: 16/12

Rocket victory.

December 19 2007

Yao: 19/17
Dwight: 21/11

Magic victory.

January 4 2008

Yao: 26/10
Dwight: 16/8

Rocket victory.

November 22 2008

Yao: 22/13
Dwight: 13/9

Rocket victory.

April 7 2009

Yao: 20/16
Dwight: 13/10

Rocket victory.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

I dont think Yao being asian has much to do with who people would pick. He has had one healthy year in the last 4, is 29 and has never won a playoff series




Yao is 28, not 29. Also, there is a very good chance Houston gets out of round 1 this year. In fact, if they avoid Utah (likely that Jazz get Lakers in round 1) and now with San Antonio with no Manu - they can make the conference finals just as easily as any other team.

If that happens, I doubt anyone will claim Howard is better than Yao, but then again it does seem that just because he's Asian, that people will never give him the proper credit. Proper credit being that based on a pure basketball standpoint he is the best center in the NBA.

[dafunkphenom]

I can't believe this is actually in discussion. Dwight is the best big man in the NBA...period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and a top 5 overall player.
Yao = Brittle

Give me a break!

[rezznor]

a bit biased but i think its a good analysis

http://www.thedreamshake.com/2009/4/7/825187/a-quick-note-on-the-yao-vs-howard


# Post Moves -- Yao. I think Dwight has a more polished post game than most give him credit for. He has excellent footwork, and his jump hook in the lane is slowly progressing. That said, Yao Ming is the best post-up player in the entire league. He has a turnaround fadeaway jumper, a hook shot (with both his right and left hands), and a nice one-dribble move into the lane that can get him separation for a jumper. The one thing Howard needs to work on, besides his general touch from the block, is his ability to counter good defensive position. He can effectively spin and provide himself position for a dunk, but when it isn't there, he runs out of options. Yao is able to pivot and look for a second option if his first is taken away; this is something Dwight still needs to work on. While Dwight will eventually develop better moves, the edge clearly goes to Yao.

# Athleticism -- Dwight. I shouldn't have to explain this one. Dwight can run up and down the court and can dunk at any given moment. Yao is athletic for his massive size, but he simply cannot do what Superman can.

# Post Defense -- Even. This choice may garner the most criticism, because Dwight blocks more shots than Yao. The problem with Dwight is that his blocked shots normally end up in the fifth row. Yao will do that occasionally, but the majority of his blocks are recovered by his teammates. In terms of simply bodying up on the block, Yao has great defensive footwork and doesn't get beat on basic power moves - which is what Dwight brings to the table. Yao and Howard do an equally great job when it comes to help defense and changing shots in the lane, but Dwight has a tendency to break down against centers that have a decent finesse/traditional post move and gives up points while trying to go for the blocked shot. That said, he is still an excellent post defender. So is Yao. So they are equal.

# Perimeter Defense -- Dwight. This one isn't even close. The one way to beat Yao is stay on the perimeter and shoot it from there, which is why Mehmet Okur has a tendency to hurt us. Yao can't help on the pick and roll because it requires too much sudden movement for him, and it hurts our defense quite often. Howard is able to defend on the perimeter and show help on pick and rolls.

# Offensive Range -- Yao. Yao can shoot threes, by the way, but since he doesn't do it enough, I'll leave it out of the argument. However, Yao does make shots from the free throw line and from about fifteen feet on the baseline frequently. Dwight's game doesn't really extend outside of the paint.

# Rebounding -- Dwight. If there is one thing that Yao needs to severely work on, it's his defensive rebounding. Game by game, he will either miss-time his jumps or be too far under the basket to grab a ball that quickly bounces off the rim. Too often, he misses rebounds that he should have easily gotten. Howard scoops up everything around the rim, and is much more effective on the offensive boards as well.

# Free Throw Shooting -- Yao. Yao's the greatest free-throw shooting big man of all time. If you find someone else who is better, let me know. He's been over 80% for his entire career. On the other hand, Dwight shoots 60%. This wouldn't be such an awful number if Superman didn't take so many free throws per game. His average number of attempts from the charity stripe is 11, and for him to only make 6.6 of them per game is a huge detriment to his team. Yao can convert when he is fouled. Dwight is never a sure thing.

# Passing -- Yao. Neither of them are Steve Nash, but Yao is coming along. He is an excellent kick-out passer when the double team comes, and his touch passes in the lane are getting there - he just needs to work on his timing. From what I have read and heard, Dwight's passing has plenty of issues and needs some work. This is the category that I have the least amount of information on Dwight, so if you're going to attack me, look elsewhere, as this would be too easy to criticize.

# Ball handling/hands -- Dwight. While Howard isn't exactly immune to turnovers, he does a much better job catching the ball in the post than Yao. His hands in general are much more polished, and his turnovers rarely come from fundamental movements. Yao, on the other hand, has a tendency to drop easy passes, and he will lose possession of the ball when the slightest contact his made.

# Clutchness -- Yao. First and foremost, you cannot foul Yao in crunch time. If you do, it's an automatic two points for us. Fouling Dwight proves to be effective at times, as his free throw shooting lacks consistency. Aside from free throws, Yao's clutch statistics from 82games.com are far superior to Howard's. While I know that one cannot solely base "clutchness" on a relatively basic statistic such as this, it does serve as a good indicator nonetheless. Yao's are shown first, followed by Dwight's:

[Bush4Ever]

You people are making this too complicated.

The main duties of a Center are:

1. Defend the interior
2. Rebound the ball
3. Score in volume
4. Score the ball efficiently

Howard absolutely crushes Yao on 2 and 4, and has him by a healthy amount this year in 1 and 3.

Dwight does pretty much all of the critical big man things better than Yao.

[notcool]

He leads the league in rebounds and blocks while scoring 21 a game on shaq like shooting percentages on a team thats gonna win 60 games. I dare say hes doing fine as is.

Centers have always needed what Howard does just as much as what Yao does. Maybe more even. Post scoring isnt really more important for a bigman than his defense and rebounding. Maybe in some situations. But he puts up 20+ a night doing what he does now just as Yao can still impact the D with his size and rebound pretty well. There is little to suggest Yao is more effective than Dwight really. Post skills alone dont make you better than anyone without them. Rony Seikaly had more post skills and was probably even a better rebounder than Zo....doesnt make him more effective.




Post scoring is more valuable because it creates spacing and opportunities for your shooters. It makes things easier. Yao is not a bad defender and alters lots of shots. Yao improves the overall team effectiveness, I would pick him over Howard...but Yao needs to cut down his TO if he wants to be a more effective center

[Legend of Josh]

I'm a huge Yao fan, but if I were a GM and had the option to build my team around DHow or Yao, it'd be Howard. Not by a landslide, but Howard's ability to control games off the boards is the best this league has seen in a very long while. Yao's health is also a factor. DHow has a true NBA type body and his career will have more longevity.

Right now it's no question Yao is a much more polished / fundamental offensive player than Howard, and it may be that Howard never gets to that 25 ppg + mark, but considering DHow's overall game and with huge upside potential I'd go with him over Yao.

[rezznor]

some of the comments from orlando fans http://www.topix.net/forum/source/orlando-sentinel/TUELP2T0II2AGI9TV


I'm really not surprised that Orlando lost this game. Yao owns Dwight like a witch doctor owns the life of a person that she stabs the rag doll of. I would feel confident against just about any team in the West that the Magic face should they make it to the Finals except Houston. Dwight just can't seem to compete with Yao.

Frustrating loss.

Awesome game by Rashard with 22 points and 12 rebounds.

Dwight just can't match up with Yao.

Yao Ming dominates Howard again. Lucky these teams only meet twice a year. Magic want no part of them in the Finals either.

Man, I'm glad we don't have to play them again. We don't match up well against the Rockets! Yao gives D12 fits!

Rockets just have the Magic's number, much like the Jazz seem to have the Rocket's number.

Howard should at least develop a bank shot similar to Duncan to draw Yao (or Shaq) out and than beat him with quickness, they won't play them in the playoffs anyway...

Dwight **** at 1-on-1 defense. Gortat played maybe 10 times better defense on Yao than Dwight did. Dwight needs to man up. Magic fans act like he is a god at everything. When his post defense is quite bad, and not just against Yao. For a guy who is said to be a beast, he gets backed down like its nothing. Dwight should stop showing off his biceps, and start doing some squats and deadlifts. Gortats legs are twice as strong as Dwights. Against the knicks I saw Dwight get bumped out of position by Jared friggin Jeffries, because Dwight has little lower body strength.

[Kblaze8855]

Sorry, but I'm not going to lie.......I didn't read 90% of what you just typed, it's too late.

All I saw was "Post scoring isnt really more important for a bigman than his defense and rebounding" and pretty much discarded everything else you typed....because that's a joke, LOL funny.

So a bigman with post skills who cant defend or rebound is more likely to make a team good than the reverse?

Explain to me exactly why Mutombo made a greater impact on the outcome of games than Rony Seikaly or Vlade when both of them were better shooters, post scorers, and better passing out of the post while his only advantage was defense and rebounding. Explain to me why Bill Russell has 11 titles. How was Zo so good when he had virtually nothing but a midrange jumper and a jump hook. How is it Ben Wallace was often the most effective bigman on the floor when he was literally always the least skilled offensive player on the floor?

Bigmen need what Dwight does as much as what Yao does and the makeup of the team determines what each individual needs to do more of.

Marcus Fizer can score around the basket all day. Rebound too. I watched him have 30/20 games on the Bulls. Yet he cant even stay in the NBA. Complete liability on defense and only has interest in rebounding because it gets him the ball to get a shot up.

A good defender and rebounder has often come out on top of guys who score. Especially when the guy considered a non scorer in fact scores quite a bit(in this case...more than the scorer...but not per minute).




Let me say this again.....if Dwight never learns legit ass post moves, his team will never win ****....plain and simple. The day he does win crap without post moves, whoever reads this thread and the guy that posted the response above can feel free to bump this thread.

Feel free to list all that Yao Ming has won.


Again....Dwight won't win crap until he learns how to play the center position..(and as a long time Houston fan...I know all I need to know about the "CENTER POSITION" Athleticism will only get you and your team so far.

As I said....if Yaos skills make him so much more likely to win....show me what hes won. Generally when someones entire argument is that one side cant win...the other side has won. Did I miss Yao ming title run? Or....his 60 win seasons? Or...even a playoff series win?

Shaq is the only center since 1987 to win a title while not arguably being a better defender than a scorer. 36 of the last 50(and 14 of the last 20) champs had their best bigman arguably better on D than offense. Lets not act like Rik smits types have been winning.

It takes everything. And Yao is no closer to doing it all than Howard. Yao is a more skilled scorer and passer. Dwight is a better rebounder and shot blocker who really works on the defensive end. You need both sides. Yao has some D and rebounding. He impacts the other teams scoring. Dwight has some offense. You dont score 21 a game in the NBA without talent. Plenty of super athletes cant score 20+ a game on this level.

Dwight is a 20/14 player blocking shots all over the place and leading an elite team to 59-62 wins. There are hall of fame bigman who never approached that. Many of them very good scorers.

More to the game than how good you are at putting the ball in the basket. Its thinking like yours that led the Hawks to trade Bill Russell for Ed Macauley. Granted that worked out nicely for a year when Russell got hurt....but the Celtics came out quite well.

Scoring only gets you so far. And id figure a long time Rockets fan would know that. Hakeem having post moves might be the most well known part of his game...but he never led the NBA in scoring. But he did lead it in rebounds and blocks. When they won it all he was scoring...but he was also the much deserving defensive player of the year.

Cant win without both sides. You can call it a joke. I bet Hakeem wouldnt find it funny at all.

[Kblaze8855]

Post scoring is more valuable because it creates spacing and opportunities for your shooters. It makes things easier.

The Magic are coming up on 800 threes made this season. The second most in NBA history to the 06 Suns. Seems they have no trouble finding opportunities for their shooters. And quite often Dwight is a reason for that.

[KeylessEntry]

Kblaze completely slaughtered this thread. Too bad the yao trolls arent going to read your post when they realize it gives a basically irrefutable argument for Dwight ranking over Yao.

[Kblaze8855]

I really dont think the idea of ranking Yao higher is just...dumb. But the people who think it dont seem very able to explain why. To be fair it seems to usually be Rockets fans so you cant really expect them to be unbiased. I suppose id lean towards Derrick Rose over OJ Mayo when asked. Cant totally remove the bias of being a Bulls fan.

[iTruWarrior]

Yao Ming is the better player. Again, even Shaq said if you can't outplay the best you aren't the best. There's a reason why Shaq said Yao Ming is the best center in the NBA.

I was about to post about the dream shake article too...

Again, KBlaze has his own opinion and everybody else has their own. KeylessEntry is just being a troll.

[LA_Showtime]

Yao Ming brings so much to the table when he's healthy. He's a reliable offensive threat, he plays solid defense, and he's a great leader. When healthy, he's the best center in the league.

[wTFaMonkey]

Kblaze makes a very valid point. But you also have to factor in the coaching style Stan van gundy implemented on his team. The Magic plays more of a half court slow paced game. Which usually makes Dwight more of a weapon with his sheer size and athleticism alone.

But when I look back in the past when JVG was coaching the Rockets. Yao was averaging similar numbers Dwight is averaging now. and that was 2 seasons ago. I think it all comes to coaching and if JVG was coaching the Rockets TODAY, he would easily average 25+/10/2 a game.

meh.. Id put shaq ahead of both Yao and dwight. Im tired of all this talk about who is better than who :confusedshrug:

[iTruWarrior]

Kblaze makes a very valid point. But you also have to factor in the coaching style Stan van gundy implemented on his team. The Magic plays more of a half court slow paced game. Which usually makes Dwight more of a weapon with his sheer size and athleticism alone.

But when I look back in the past when JVG was coaching the Rockets. Yao was averaging similar numbers Dwight is averaging now. and that was 2 seasons ago. I think it all comes to coaching and if JVG was coaching the Rockets TODAY, he would easily average 25+/10/2 a game.

meh.. Id put shaq ahead of both Yao and dwight. Im tired of all this talk about who is better than who :confusedshrug:
Shaq says Yao.....If you remember.

i have my own opinion and so many others. The only person that doesn't is keylessentry. In all honesty, I'll take Yao because he is more of a playoff center and he can take out the elite centers in the NBA. While Howard can only rape the scrubs.

Howard has no average stat....Because he gets 25-20 against scrubs, 15-11 against elite.

[Kblaze8855]

Just depends on what you want to call elite. 34/16 and 24/21 vs the Spurs. One of them that game he had the buzzer beating lob for ther win. 30/23 vs Amare. 24/23 vs Camby(not a deserving DPOY but still a solid defender and rebounder). 25/20 vs the Lakers. 28/20 vs the Jazz who have a great frontcourt. 24/21 vs the Celtics who have one of the better defensive frontcourts in the NBA. Gave Emeka 45/19 with 8 blocks. Emeka is one of the best defensive bigmen in the league. And not like hes never played well vs Yao. How many good centers are there anyway?

Even if we count Duncan, Jefferson, Amare, and Chandler who have all at one point been full time power forwards we dont have many.

[pete's montreux]

Chandler was a full time PF? Really? When?

[Kblaze8855]

When he played with Eddy Curry. Chandler actually was played at the 3 for part of his first couple years. Didnt have much of a jumper but hes lost what little he had now. Never developed those skills.

[pete's montreux]

Oh, ok. For some reason I was imagining Curry at the 4 and Chandler at the 5 during his Chi days.

[iTruWarrior]

Just depends on what you want to call elite. 34/16 and 24/21 vs the Spurs. One of them that game he had the buzzer beating lob for ther win. 30/23 vs Amare. 24/23 vs Camby(not a deserving DPOY but still a solid defender and rebounder). 25/20 vs the Lakers. 28/20 vs the Jazz who have a great frontcourt. 24/21 vs the Celtics who have one of the better defensive frontcourts in the NBA. Gave Emeka 45/19 with 8 blocks. Emeka is one of the best defensive bigmen in the league. And not like hes never played well vs Yao. How many good centers are there anyway?

Even if we count Duncan, Jefferson, Amare, and Chandler who have all at one point been full time power forwards we dont have many.
He stopped having those games against the Celtics recently except for his latest one, where we saw a pathetic performance by the Magic, not to mention KG was playing under limited minutes.

Emeka is not one of the best defensive bigs that's a joke, he's a pretty good defender. But being elite is a joke. And No, Howard has never played well agaisnt Yao.

Yao Ming is the better player than Howard at this point.

[shortlunatic]

He stopped having those games against the Celtics recently except for his latest one, where we saw a pathetic performance by the Magic, not to mention KG was playing under limited minutes.

Emeka is not one of the best defensive bigs that's a joke, he's a pretty good defender. But being elite is a joke. And No, Howard has never played well agaisnt Yao.

Yao Ming is the better player than Howard at this point.

Howard>Yao...Yao is a better basketball player, but Howard is the better center. He just does exactly what a center is supposed to do.

[iTruWarrior]

Howard>Yao...Yao is a better basketball player, but Howard is the better center. He just does exactly what a center is supposed to do.
That is accurate, but I am talking about players here, and Yao is the better player than Howard. Therefor, Yao > Dwight

[1~Gibson~1]

Yao Ming Yao

[Bush4Ever]

That is accurate, but I am talking about players here, and Yao is the better player than Howard. Therefor, Yao > Dwight

How on earth can Dwight be the better Center but Yao the better player, if they are both Centers?

Look, in the critical parts of the game that Centers are most responsible for (rebounding, interior defense, scoring efficiency), Dwight takes it over Yao in a romp.

Yes, Yao is more versatile, but his utility is significantly less than Howard's in the critical parts of the game for a Center.

[iTruWarrior]

How on earth can Dwight be the better Center but Yao the better player, if they are both Centers?

Look, in the critical parts of the game that Centers are most responsible for (rebounding, interior defense, scoring efficiency), Dwight takes it over Yao in a romp.

Yes, Yao is more versatile, but his utility is significantly less than Howard's in the critical parts of the game for a Center.
And Yao can close out games while Howard can't. Howard honestly should be thanking the fact that he has Hedo and Jameer on his team. I'll take Yao, you can take Howard. I just know what the results are going to be when my team plays yours.

[Kblaze8855]

He averages 17/16/4 blocks vs the Celtics this year and 22/12 on 65% last year. And he had 18/16/4 blocks vs Yao. 21/11/3. Hes not incapable of playing well vs Yao. Its not a good matchup for him but hes had some perfectly normal to good games.

And yes Emeka is one of the best defensive centers. Who is ahead of him? Howard...some would say Camby I guess. Could say Chandler. Not a lot of guys. Could argue Perkins but he didnt seem like it till he was on a great defense. Przybilla? Really who do we have?

[Bush4Ever]

And Yao can close out games while Howard can't. Howard honestly should be thanking the fact that he has Hedo and Jameer on his team. I'll take Yao, you can take Howard. I just know what the results are going to be when my team plays yours.

Fantastic.

So the first 45 minutes of the game don't somehow count?

And you can't extrapolate individual matchups to overall performance. Everyone has someone elses number in the NBA. If you want to say Yao> Dwight in head to head matchups, that's fine (and I would agree), but Dwight dominates the rest of the league to a much greater extent than Yao.

Should I say you can take Yao, I'll take Dwight...I just know that I'll have 5-10 more wins over the course of the year than you?

[Kblaze8855]

And Yao can close out games while Howard can't. Howard honestly should be thanking the fact that he has Hedo and Jameer on his team. I'll take Yao, you can take Howard. I just know what the results are going to be when my team plays yours.

Luckily ill only play yours 2 times a season. Best player isnt decided on 2 nights a year.

[iTruWarrior]

He averages 17/16/4 blocks vs the Celtics this year and 22/12 on 65% last year. And he had 18/16/4 blocks vs Yao. 21/11/3. Hes not incapable of playing well vs Yao. Its not a good matchup for him but hes had some perfectly normal to good games.

And yes Emeka is one of the best defensive centers. Who is ahead of him? Howard...some would say Camby I guess. Could say Chandler. Not a lot of guys. Could argue Perkins but he didnt seem like it till he was on a great defense. Przybilla? Really who do we have?
Yao, Przy, Shaq, Perkins, Sheed, Chandler. Those are guys that are better defensively than Emeka. He's not a bad defender, just not elite.

Again, Stop looking at averages.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=howardw01

Yao has double the stats, Howard has. Every single time, to think Howard capable of doing anything against Yao is just trolling.

Again, Yao is better, no insult to Howard.

[wTFaMonkey]

why is everyone on this board underating Yaos defense and Rebounding?

It makes me laugh when people say Dwight is SIGNIFICANTLY better than yao in defense, reb, etc etc. Did people forget that This Rockets was a team KNOWN for their defense and Yao was their anchor during the JVG days. Samething is happening to Dwight. SVG is a defensive minded coach, naturally dwight HAS to be good at defense. obviously he is a good player nonetheless, but coaching has a lot to do with it.

Yao is a very solid player that has very little weaknesses in his game. I can only see 2 he lacks. Mobility and Handles.

[shortlunatic]

How on earth can Dwight be the better Center but Yao the better player, if they are both Centers?

Look, in the critical parts of the game that Centers are most responsible for (rebounding, interior defense, scoring efficiency), Dwight takes it over Yao in a romp.

Yes, Yao is more versatile, but his utility is significantly less than Howard's in the critical parts of the game for a Center.

because Yao can just do alot more than Howard can. His skill set is higher. In my eyes tho, Howard does the dirty work best. He rebounds and blocks more shots than Yao which is exactly what i want my center to do. Yao cant do those things as good as Howard can so thats why i would pick Howard over Yao as a center. Yao can shoot better than Howard, can take batter free throws, and is mega tall. Yao is a better all aorund player, but Howard splays the C spot better.

[iTruWarrior]

Fantastic.

So the first 45 minutes of the game don't somehow count?

And you can't extrapolate individual matchups to overall performance. Everyone has someone elses number in the NBA. If you want to say Yao> Dwight in head to head matchups, that's fine (and I would agree), but Dwight dominates the rest of the league to a much greater extent than Yao.

Should I say you can take Yao, I'll take Dwight...I just know that I'll have 5-10 more wins over the course of the year than you?
And your saying Yao doesn't dominate the league? What doesn't he do then? I hope you realize Yao's +/- are much higher than Howard's against good teams.

You don't average 20/10 by playing amazing in the last 3 minutes and by 2 games.

[Bush4Ever]

because Yao can just do alot more than Howard can. His skill set is higher. In my eyes tho, Howard does the dirty work best. He rebounds and blocks more shots than Yao which is exactly what i want my center to do. Yao cant do those things as good as Howard can so thats why i would pick Howard over Yao as a center. Yao can shoot better than Howard, can take batter free throws, and is mega tall. Yao is a better all aorund player, but Howard splays the C spot better.

Who cares? He can't do the CRITICAL things nearly as well as Dwight.

You don't determine value by how many things a player can do. You determine it by the actual tangible outputs the player produces. And Dwight's tangible outputs are greater than Yao's on virtually all of the critical things related to being a Center.

Or put another way...would you trade rebounding, interior defense, scoring efficiency, scoring volume (all Dwight's advantages) for......

The ability to shoot from the outside and "being tall"?

I hope not.

[Bush4Ever]

And your saying Yao doesn't dominate the league? What doesn't he do then? I hope you realize Yao's +/- are much higher than Howard's against good teams.

You don't average 20/10 by playing amazing in the last 3 minutes and by 2 games.

No, I'm saying Dwight dominates the rest of the league more than Yao.

Yao is a great player. But at the present time he isn't as good as Dwight.

[iTruWarrior]

Who cares? He can't do the CRITICAL things nearly as well as Dwight.

You don't determine value by how many things a player can do. You determine it by the actual tangible outputs the player produces. And Dwight's tangible outputs are greater than Yao's on virtually all of the critical things related to being a Center.

Or put another way...would you trade rebounding, interior defense, scoring efficiency, scoring volume (all Dwight's advantages) for......

The ability to shoot from the outside and "being tall"?

I hope not.
Be able to close out games and draw double teams is not critical? Interesting, inside the mind of Bush4ever.

I've had the same argument with you on ESPN, I know your opinion already jeez.

[Bush4Ever]

Be able to close out games and draw double teams is not critical? Interesting, inside the mind of Bush4ever.

I've had the same argument with you on ESPN, I know your opinion already jeez.


It is.

Is it as critical as defending the say 30 or 40 interior shots the opposing teams shoots a game, grabbing 14+ rebounds a game off the glass per game, and shooting 4-5 percentage points better over the course of the entire season?

No.

Yao has advantages over Dwight, but Dwight's advantages are in much more critical areas of the game. That's all I am saying. I'm not bashing Yao.

[shortlunatic]

Who cares? He can't do the CRITICAL things nearly as well as Dwight.

You don't determine value by how many things a player can do. You determine it by the actual tangible outputs the player produces. And Dwight's tangible outputs are greater than Yao's on virtually all of the critical things related to being a Center.

Or put another way...would you trade rebounding, interior defense, scoring efficiency, scoring volume (all Dwight's advantages) for......

The ability to shoot from the outside and "being tall"?

I hope not.

Are you serious?? i already i said i would choose Howard over Yao, cuz i think if you shoose Yao, its gonna be more difficult to set up a team around him. shooting the ball is an important skill, he has way better post moves than Howard, how can you say hitting clutch shots isnt critical?? Yao still has interior defense...he still gets gets rebounds and blocks, just Howard gets them at a muh better rate. Yao can still score on the inside, isnt he only like 2 points behind Howard??

Yao has a much better skill set hands down. Its just that Dwight is far stonger and more dominat which is why he is the beter CENTER. But you cant lie and say he is the best all around player. that just doesnt work.

[iTruWarrior]

It is.

Is it as critical as defending the say 30 or 40 interior shots the opposing teams shoots a game, grabbing 14+ rebounds a game off the glass per game, and shooting 4-5 percentage points better over the course of the entire season?

No.

Yao has advantages over Dwight, but Dwight's advantages are in much more critical areas of the game. That's all I am saying. I'm not bashing Yao.
Agree to disagree, I have no problem with people taking Dwight because of the season he is having and because of his team record. But I'll go with Yao for a few more years. Howard still needs developing.

[Bush4Ever]

Are you serious?? i already i said i would choose Howard over Yao, cuz i think if you shoose Yao, its gonna be more difficult to set up a team around him. shooting the ball is an important skill, he has way better post moves than Howard, how can you say hitting clutch shots isnt critical?? Yao still has interior defense...he still gets gets rebounds and blocks, just Howard gets them at a muh better rate. Howard can still scor eon the inside, isnt he only like 2 points behind Howard??

Yao has a much better skill set hands down. Its just that Dwight is far stonger and more dominat which is why he is the beter CENTER. But you cant lie and say he is the best all around player. that just doesnt work.

Maybe we are getting our wires crossed.

Yes, all other things being equal, more skills = better player. But in this case, things are not equal.

Not all skills are weighted equally when we are talking about performance. To give an extreme example, do you rate Chris Paul's ability to block shots as heavily as his ability to score and pass the basketball? Of course not.

Similarily, do I care that Dwight can't shoot past 8-10 feet? No. Why should I? He can use his body and get shots at the rim almost at will.

I guess I don't really see the relevance of being more "well-rounded" if it doesn't translate into providing better tangible outputs for your team.

[Bush4Ever]

Agree to disagree, I have no problem with people taking Dwight because of the season he is having and because of his team record. But I'll go with Yao for a few more years. Howard still needs developing.

That is fine. I think reasonable people can disagree on this.

[BonyFaceNDong]

You people are making this too complicated.

The main duties of a Center are:

1. Defend the interior
2. Rebound the ball
3. Score in volume
4. Score the ball efficiently

Howard absolutely crushes Yao on 2 and 4, and has him by a healthy amount this year in 1 and 3.

Dwight does pretty much all of the critical big man things better than Yao.

I don't mind which player you pick, but some of the points need to be cleared;

1. Yao actually is a better interior defender. But Yao has trouble defending high pickNrolls which is on peremeter, and he's slow to run back for help defense.

2. Howard has the edge here.

3. Yao is in a different system, he could score in volume more than Howard, as he was averaging 25 under JVG.
Even in the current system where Yao sometimes never sees the ball in a quarter, he and Howard are just scores same points per minute , Howard #17, Yao # 18 with less touches. So they are even here, to say at least.

4. Howard doesn't crush Yao on scoring efficiency. In fact, Yao is the more efficient scoerer between the two, better TS% than Howard. The reason? Howard wasted so many points by his poor FT shooting.

I feel there is no clear advantage for either one.They both are great players, but neither have reached prime Shaq or prime Hakeem level.
Howard is a little overrated because of his style and athletisism, Yao is a little underrated because of his style and lack of athletisism. They are both great players, one gets a little more credit for what he's doing, the other gets a little less credit for his impact(see 82games.com +/-).

[Kblaze8855]

Yao, Przy, Shaq, Perkins, Sheed, Chandler. Those are guys that are better defensively than Emeka. He's not a bad defender, just not elite.

That is not a lot of people.

Hes sure not someone you just put up 45/19/8 against because of how inept he is.



Again, Stop looking at averages.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=howardw01

Yao has double the stats, Howard has. Every single time, to think Howard capable of doing anything against Yao is just trolling.

Id say to say he is incapable of doing anything when he has in fact had perfectly good games is just disregarding reality. I never said he always plays well vs Yao. I said he can. And has. And if he never had? Wouldnt much matter to me considering they play 2 times a year.

People say the same of Deron and Paul. Youre not as good as you are twice a night youre as good as you are vs the NBA. Some guys are bad matchups vs others. Michael Ray Richardson owned Isiah Thomas and hed tell you that himself. doesnt mean hes top 20 all time. You cant just throw out the entire NBA season due to a one on one matchup.


Again, Yao is better, no insult to Howard.

Seems to be better head to head. But Yao has often played better in big matchups. I remember years ago someone(Walton I think) saying that if Yao played everyone like he plays Shaq hed be the best player in the league. Perhaps coaches just try to showcase him more vs other great bigs. But fact is....he doesnt do it all the time. Yao is not a consistient dominant player.

In fact this shows some of why id take Howard over Yao. Yao coasts vs a matchup he should win and goes hard when facing an equal. Howard goes hard vs everyone and crushes teams. Yao Ming could score on the Bulls almost at will. Last time they played he must have made like 6 straight early. They built a 17 point lead in the 3rd and lost the game on a huge 4th quarter rally where they couldnt score.

Hes out there floating around taking quick shots and missing his easy ones. Not once asking for the ball when he had a serious mismatch(as he does virtually every time he gets the ball vs anyone).

I hate that about him. Yao Ming can dominate one on one vs virtually anyone and he is content to do as little as possible most of the time.

Its not an insult to Howard to say he destroys the Raptors and whoever else. If Yao would go out and own the teams he was capable of hed be better than Dwight. But he doesnt.

you arent better than someone because they arent as good head to head. Youre better because of how well you play in NBA games. And Yao does not play better than Dwight. He simply does not use what he has to nearly his potential. Hes a 7'5'' Vince Carter(only more injury prone than Vince ever was).

For whatever the reason he does not want to dominate. Howard sees weakness and he will murder you. One reason why with half the skill he has a higher career high. Howard is a bully. He wants to dominate and win. Yao wants to win.

Nice thing to be unselfish personality wise but in the NBA when you have his talent and dont use it?

Hes just not playing to his potential and rarely if ever has. Playing to it in certian matchups doesnt change his standard performance. Which is about 4-5 jump hooks a fadeaway or two and coasting most of the game as if he doesnt know how good he is.

Dwight might not always attack on offense but hes always going hard. Always wants the rebound. Always trying to protect the basket. Always running hard and fighting for position. Dwight doesnt settle. Yao doesnt seem to want to be great like Howard does. And effort matters.

Yao may currently have more potential to dominate...but potential doesnt make you better. Doing it makes you better. And Yao simply is not more dominating than Dwight.

[wTFaMonkey]

Maybe we are getting our wires crossed.

Yes, all other things being equal, more skills = better player. But in this case, things are not equal.

Not all skills are weighted equally when we are talking about performance. To give an extreme example, do you rate Chris Paul's ability to block shots as heavily as his ability to score and pass the basketball? Of course not.

Similarily, do I care that Dwight can't shoot past 8-10 feet? No. Why should I? He can use his body and get shots at the rim almost at will.

I guess I don't really see the relevance of being more "well-rounded" if it doesn't translate into providing better tangible outputs for your team.

exactly. He is almost 1 dimensional on scoring. Teams can find ways to stop that. IE. Last night against houston.

Yao can back you down and give you a hook or make a fade away. pick you poison. with Howard, you rely on basically 2 offensive moves as for yao, he can hit you with a 15 footer or a jam.

[Bush4Ever]

I don't mind which player you pick, but some of the points need to be cleared;

1. Yao actually is a better interior defender. But Yao has trouble defending high pickNrolls which is on peremeter, and he's slow to run back for help defense.

2. Howard has the edge here.

3. Yao is in a different system, he could score in volume more than Howard, as he was averaging 25 under JVG.
Even in the current system where Yao sometimes never sees the ball in a quarter, he and Howard are just scores same points per minute , Howard #17, Yao # 18 with less touches. So they are even here, to say at least.

4. Howard doesn't crush Yao on scoring efficiency. In fact, Yao is the more efficient scoerer between the two, better TS% than Howard. The reason? Howard wasted so many points by his poor FT shooting.



Yao is absolutely not the better interior defender in any sense. None. I daresay that virtually no GM or Coach would agree with that statement. Yao isn't bad by any stretch, but he isn't in Dwight's league this year (or last year for that matter).

You also need to keep in mind Dwight shoots WAY more free throws per game than Yao, which is what drags down any shooting stat that includes FT percentage. However, last year (which you brought) Dwight STILL beats Yao in this statistic. Also, the number of FTs a team shoots is correlated to winning in a way that minimizes the percentage that you hit. See the below link:
http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/

EDIT: Go to the first article in that link.

I would admit though, that scoring volume is the closest and I wouldn't have a problem calling that a wash.


EDIT: +/- stats are dependent on a whole host of uncontrolled factors which makes their interpretation an imprecise science, to say the least.

[Bush4Ever]

exactly. He is almost 1 dimensional on scoring. Teams can find ways to stop that. IE. Last night against houston.

Yao can back you down and give you a hook or make a fade away. pick you poison. with Howard, you rely on basically 2 offensive moves as for yao, he can hit you with a 15 footer or a jam.

Then why don't they?

Why do teams have a harder time stopping Dwight's 2 basic moves than Yao's array of moves?

Fact is, Dwight has a higher FG percentage over these last two years (when he started to take over as the best C in the league), and gets opposing bigs into foul trouble at a far greater rate than Yao.

[BonyFaceNDong]

Seems to be better head to head. But Yao has often played better in big matchups. I remember years ago someone(Walton I think) saying that if Yao played everyone like he plays Shaq hed be the best player in the league. Perhaps coaches just try to showcase him more vs other great bigs. But fact is....he doesnt do it all the time. Yao is not a consistient dominant player.

It all depends on they offensive and defensive strategy. Shaq doesn't front Yao, and once Yao gets the ball in low post, he's basiclly unstoppable, and he's a very good passer against double team. When howard play Yao straight up, he gets eat alive too.

Lesser teams now front him more and more, with a 2nd guy lcosely stay behind him. It has proved to be successful because Rockets doesn't have a PG who can make them pay, and Rockets has Ron Artest who finds him a reason to shoot instead of swing around the ball.

Believe or not, hate him or not, when Tmac was in the line up, less people front Yao because Tmac can either get to the hoop or find the right open guy. That's no longer an option for Rockets, and Yao suffers from that.

[wTFaMonkey]

Then why don't they?

Why do teams have a harder time stopping Dwight's 2 basic moves than Yao's array of moves?

Fact is, Dwight has a higher FG percentage over these last two years (when he started to take over as the best C in the league), and gets opposing bigs into foul trouble at a far greater rate than Yao.

I beg to differ. Teams have a much harder time defending Yao. The opposing teams prepares their schemes around yao, as to the magic, they plan their schemes on turk,rashard etc etc.

Im not saying Dwight is a bad offensive player. But his is too 1 dimensional offensively. Besides it doesnt hurt when you have deadly 3 point shooters surrounding you.

[Kblaze8855]

Im gonna post something I said 4 years ago for anyone who thinks I dont like Yao....




First let me say I have no plans on arguing with anyone who disagrees. I'll read it. But Yao Ming topics are getting like Kobe topics as far as how long/stupid they get. So while I dont mind starting a new one....I wont be involved it in after this........

Yao Ming might be the most unfairly hated on/disrespected player in the NBA today. Yes I spent 2 years saying he was barely better than Rik Smits. And was no better than Rony Seikaly. And I still believe that one(Rony) However....Yao is bashed for way more @#%$ that he should be. Mostly:

1.Rebounding poorly for his size.
2.Getting dunked on.
3.Not dominating.
4.Being "soft".

1. There have only been 2 players over 7'4' who got more. Mark Eaton. George Muresan. Eaton got 11 one year but his career average was under 8(and under 9 much of his prime). Muresan got 10 one year but 7 in the one before and after 7. Bol, Bradley, Smits, Nevitt, Priest, and so on? Worse than Yao. None of them were great on a regular basis. When EVERYONE Yaos size has failed to be a great rebounder dont you think its time to stop expecting them to be? The best rebounders are 6'8''-7'1'' athletic players. Its a bigger shock ot me that Rasheed and Amare arent great rebounders than Yao. Who by the way for his minutes isnt a bad rebounder. About average.



2. Yao gets dunked on mostly because unlike a lot of players he cares more about contesting the shot than getting posterized. Theres a reason EVERY great defensive center gets dunked on a lot(Drob, Hakeem, Mutombo, Ewing, Duncan, Zo, and so on all got caught often). If you are a center willing to guard the basket no matter what you get banged on. Yao isnt like those guys(lack of agility and hops mostly). But he has that mindset. If I were a coach of his and he stepped out of the lane when a guy comes through like Shaq does id be pissed off. He should foul more people. But thats about it.

Hes not an ineffective defender. Hes a good bit of the reason the Rockets had a vastly improved D in his rookie year(before JVG came so it wasnt him). He does keep people out of the lane. But when you see 30 highlights of him being dunked on its easy to ignore that the worst a team hes on has given up(percentage wise) in a season is 43%. Way better than the Rockets in any point since Hakeem was still an all star(best in franchise history as well...but thats more era than anything).



3. Per minute hes the 6th most productive player in the NBA after KG, Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, and Amare(Lebron is 7th). His lack of stamina(leading to a lack of PT which is also affected by Mutombo) has more to do with his lack of huge numbers than anything else. Including his attitude. Besides.....if someone thinks Yao is overrated and not that good why do they still expect his numbers to be great? Seems contradictory to me. Either hes great and playing below himself or hes not that good and playing as well as he should. Cant be both. Some say since he was a 1st pick expectations are raised. Which may be true..but...hes better than the 94, 95, 98, 99, 2000, 2001, 2004 # 1 picks. Though 99 is close 2004 should be better eventually. The guy shoots 55%. Better than anyone but Shaq and Amare. 18/8/2 isnt at all bad for 31 minutes.

4. Softness. This one...........maybe. I cant say Yao isnt a little soft. But I cant see him missing 3 months with a hurt finger like Magloire. Guy has missed 2 games in 3 years. He isnt aggressive enough. But hes not half as "soft" as hes made out to be.


Yao is as good as anyone like him has ever been at rebounding and gets bashed for it. Yao is a better scorer than anyone like him has ever been and is bashed for not scoring enough.Yao is one of the best #1 picks of the last 11 years(96, 97, and 2003 are the only ones better). Gets bashed for not being good enough for a #1 pick. Yao is one of very few players in the NBA who could get 21/8/3 on 66% shooting in the playoffs and have people talking about how much he sucked. He played 1 bad game of 7(11/8 in another but it was in 20 minutes and they won)? The standards Yao are held to are absurd. Standards only justifiable if you assume hes as good as his hype. Because if he ISNT as good as his hype theres nothing to bash im for since hes living up to his ability. Kinda like how Kobe "haters" always said hes not as good as MJ and then use the fact that he isnt doing what MJ did to attack him. If he isnt that good what rational person judges him by those standards?

Judged by the standards of any center of the last 15 years who isnt arguably an all time great.....Yao is doing fine. Really. Name the centers since 1985 who have no shot at the HOF who were flat out totally better than Yao. Zo? Mutombo? Id say they have shots. Kevin Willis? Vlade? Eh. I wouldnt say so. Sampson? Better. But injury. There may be a couple. But you are lying if you tell me you dont need to think about it for a minute. Really all you cant compare him to are borderline HOF guys. And hes just 24. Yao has done a lot more to deserve praise than hatred. And(at least until his next 3 rebounds in 34 minutes game) he has it from me.


I feel the same way now mostly. Only the more I see him the less I accept his dominance. Hes dominant in that hes too good not to be effective. but hes not nearly as dominant as he should be. Back then I figured hed grow into the best player role a bit more but he never did.

Yao is a bit of a letdown for me. He should be top 5. Maybe top 3. But I dont think he ever will be. Just doesnt play that way.

[wTFaMonkey]

Im gonna post something I said 4 years ago for anyone who thinks I dont like Yao....






I feel the same way now mostly. Only the more I see him the less I accept his dominance. Hes dominant in that hes too good not to be effective. but hes not nearly as dominant as he should be. Back then I figured hed grow into the best player role a bit more but he never did.

Yao is a bit of a letdown for me. He should be top 5. Maybe top 3. But I dont think he ever will be. Just doesnt play that way.

He doesnt play the same way because the Offensive scheme is much much different from the JVG offense. Just look at his FGA from back then when he avged 25ppg. and now.

[Bush4Ever]

I beg to differ. Teams have a much harder time defending Yao. The opposing teams prepares their schemes around yao, as to the magic, they plan their schemes on turk,rashard etc etc.

Im not saying Dwight is a bad offensive player. But his is too 1 dimensional offensively. Besides it doesnt hurt when you have deadly 3 point shooters surrounding you.

Dwight has a higher FG percentage and gets to the line more.

He is therefore harder to stop once he gets the ball, especially now that he has somewhat developed his moves.

If you are a stats person, Dwight has more "offensive win shares" than Yao, per basketball reference.com

[Bush4Ever]

He doesnt play the same way because the Offensive scheme is much much different from the JVG offense. Just look at his FGA from back then when he avged 25ppg. and now.


Look at his FG percentage too.

[BonyFaceNDong]

Yao is absolutely not the better interior defender in any sense. None. I daresay that virtually no GM or Coach would agree with that statement. Yao isn't bad by any stretch, but he isn't in Dwight's league this year (or last year for that matter).

You also need to keep in mind Dwight shoots WAY more free throws per game than Yao, which is what drags down any shooting stat that includes FT percentage. However, last year (which you brought) Dwight STILL beats Yao in this statistic. Also, the number of FTs a team shoots is correlated to winning in a way that minimizes the percentage that you hit. See the below link:
http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/

I would admit though, that scoring volume is the closest and I wouldn't have a problem calling that a wash.


EDIT: +/- stats are dependent on a whole host of uncontrolled factors which makes their interpretation an imprecise science, to say the least.

Again, Yao is usually underrated for his impact.
Yao alters tons of shots and occupies tons of driving space inside. Those are the things invisible to stats.
For example, when Yao is in the game, opponents shot 46.8%, when Yao is out, 50.2%. When Yao is in, opponnets attempted 13 FTs per 48minutes, when Yao is out, opponents attempted 19 FTs per 48 minutes.

Those are huge difference on defense. Reason? When Yao is on the court, opponents simply gave up the idea of going inside, otherwise they'd look worse than Howard against Yao, and they started shooting jumpers. But that doesn't show in stats of interior defense, because no blocks are availabe when opponents chose to shoot jumpers.

Last year wasn't Yao's best shooting year, he was asked to shoot from outside too much by Adelman. So let's just focuse on this year. No matter how many FTs Howard gets, if he can't make them, he's not as efficient as people think, those are wasted points. So Howard doesn't crush Yao on scoring efficiency at all.

[iTruWarrior]

I'l end it now. Stop talking about stats, Brent Barry already summed it up nicely when he said stats are like bikinis, and they don't tell the whole story

How many defensive minded centers are there in the league? Pretty much all of them right? About all of them rebound and defend...that includes Yao.

and How many offensive minded centers are there in the league? The only ones I see today is Yao and Shaq. You can consider Duncan, Gasol and Jefferson but they are power forwards if you ask me.

That being said, Yao is more rare of a player than Howard, because he can close out games and you can go to him everytime. You can't with Howard.

Yao Ming is better than Howard, no insult to him.

[BonyFaceNDong]

Im gonna post something I said 4 years ago for anyone who thinks I dont like Yao....






I feel the same way now mostly. Only the more I see him the less I accept his dominance. Hes dominant in that hes too good not to be effective. but hes not nearly as dominant as he should be. Back then I figured hed grow into the best player role a bit more but he never did.

Yao is a bit of a letdown for me. He should be top 5. Maybe top 3. But I dont think he ever will be. Just doesnt play that way.

Can't argue that. The system, the players Rockets have, and Yao himself are all part of the reasons he doesn't reach some people's expectation. and the pxpectation is set so high.

I still believe if Yao wasn't hurt the last two years, they'd beat Utah both times. The first playoffs, despite poor supporting cast, Yao was clearly not himself, at least one step slower than before he was injured in that same season. the 2nd playoffs, Yao + Tmac + good supporting cast would easily handle the Jazz. But it just wan't meant to be.

[iTruWarrior]

and Since we all love opinions...

I'll state mine.

Yao Ming is a lot closer to Howard's defense than Howard is to Yao's offense. Stat-wise it may not show it, but as Barry said stats only tell half the story. Yao is one of the best post defenders in the NBA, while Howard is average at post defense. Howard is clearly the better defender because of his ability to block shots, but Yao can also alter and block shots. The fact that Yao Ming is probably one of the most limited players in the NBA and he still owns Dwight Howard that badly goes to show you how much help Howard needs with his skill and IQ.

[Kblaze8855]

I'l end it now. Stop talking about stats, Brent Barry already summed it up nicely when he said stats are like bikinis, and they don't tell the whole story

How many defensive minded centers are there in the league? Pretty much all of them right? About all of them rebound and defend...that includes Yao.

and How many offensive minded centers are there in the league? The only ones I see today is Yao and Shaq. You can consider Duncan, Gasol and Jefferson but they are power forwards if you ask me.

That being said, Yao is more rare of a player than Howard, because he can close out games and you can go to him everytime. You can't with Howard.

Yao Ming is better than Howard, no insult to him.

I didnt notice the location you have till now. In Houston. I just glanced at the picture and guessed Laker fan. Im assuming now its some kind of bet.

I try not to argue much with people about people on their favorite team.

I'll just say I dont think its just by chance that at a glance the last 3 people arguing Yao are Rocket fans and the general opinion among fans(and GMs for what its worth (http://www.nba.com/2008/tipoff/10/21/gmsurvey.players/index.html)) with no tie to either is that Dwight is the best center.

Yao had his time to take the spot and hold onto it. He got hurt. Has not really been all he can be. I dont think he will ever be considered better than Dwight by the general public again. Not outside Texas at least.

[iTruWarrior]

I didnt notice the location you have till now. In Houston. I just glanced at the picture and guessed Laker fan. Im assuming now its some kind of bet.

I try not to argue much with people about people on their favorite team.

I'll just say I dont think its just by chance that at a glance the last 3 people arguing Yao are Rocket fans and the general opinion among fans(and GMs for what its worth (http://www.nba.com/2008/tipoff/10/21/gmsurvey.players/index.html)) with no tie to either is that Dwight is the best center.

Yao had his time to take the spot and hold onto it. He got hurt. Has not really been all he can be. I dont think he will ever be considered better than Dwight by the general public again. Not outside Texas at least.
You got your opinion, you got your own. Can't we just leave it at that then?

[BonyFaceNDong]

Yao Ming is a lot closer to Howard's defense than Howard is to Yao's offense.

I don't know if that's true. Actually I find it's funny that people overrates Yao's offense but underrates his defense, then they overrates Howard's defense but underrates his offense.

Yao has flaw's on offense too, he can't jump high to recieve lob passes, he can't put the ball on the floor for more than 3 dribbles, otherwise a TO is bound to happen.

Howard's man to man defense and overall defensive impact is overrated too just like Camby, even though not to that degree.

[Kblaze8855]

You got your opinion, you got your own. Can't we just leave it at that then?

Everyone has opinions. And reasons for them. The reaons have always been my thing. And being a fan of the player in question is often reason enough. Because of that...yes. I can leave it at that. My curiosity on the matter is satisfied.

[BonyFaceNDong]

I dont think he will ever be considered better than Dwight by the general public again.

Unless at least one of the two things happens:

1.Howard gets injured like Yao did.

2. Yao's team beat Howard's team in NBA finals and Yao make Howard look really bad in those games.

[shortlunatic]

Maybe we are getting our wires crossed..

thats exactly it.


Yes, all other things being equal, more skills = better player. But in this case, things are not equal.

Not all skills are weighted equally when we are talking about performance. To give an extreme example, do you rate Chris Paul's ability to block shots as heavily as his ability to score and pass the basketball? Of course not.

Similarily, do I care that Dwight can't shoot past 8-10 feet? No. Why should I? He can use his body and get shots at the rim almost at will.

I guess I don't really see the relevance of being more "well-rounded" if it doesn't translate into providing better tangible outputs for your team.

Thats the reason i use all the time when people say "but Yao can shoot and has post moves". The way i see it, as long as Howard is getting it done, i dnt care if he has amazing post moves or not. The point is that he is getting the ball in the basket. I am just saying that Yao has a better all around skill set than Howard does. Howard relies on his strenght to get the job done, where as Yao relies on his versatile abiltiy. Yao will try and find ways to pick apart a defense and players, where as Howard just uses pure strength. Thats why i say Yao is a better player. But talking about who i think is the better player to have on a team, i would still choose Howard just becasue i think he has the perfect mold for a center.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

This whole thread is just STATS, STATS, STATS.........


in the eyeball test Yao is clearly better than Howard.

[redhonda76]

Yao is the best center in the NBA. The Magic don't run many plays for Dwight for a reason and they don't go to him during close games. Dwight's defense is vastly overrated and SVG defensive scheme is vastly underrated. Dwight's rebounds are inflated because Hedo and Rashard are small forwards. His post defense is average at best and is exposed by better post players.

[iTruWarrior]

Yao is the best center in the NBA. The Magic don't run many plays for Dwight for a reason and they don't go to him during close games. Dwight's defense is vastly overrated and SVG defensive scheme is vastly underrated. Dwight's rebounds are inflated because Hedo and Rashard are small forwards. His post defense is average at best and is exposed by better post players.
Well said, I still do feel like he's the best defensive center in the NBA due to his ability to block shots and that's extremely important for a big.

His post defense is just average though, in other words he is similar to Marcus Camby. Difference is that Camby has cement bricks on his shoes.

[shortlunatic]

Yao is the best center in the NBA. The Magic don't run many plays for Dwight for a reason and they don't go to him during close games. Dwight's defense is vastly overrated and SVG defensive scheme is vastly underrated. Dwight's rebounds are inflated because Hedo and Rashard are small forwards. His post defense is average at best and is exposed by better post players.

so...Yao towers over all players yet his rebounds are still not very high. I say Howard is a way better center. He flat out dominates the paint in a way Yao should, but never will.

[iTruWarrior]

so...Yao towers over all players yet his rebounds are still not very high. I say Howard is a way better center. He flat out dominates the paint in a way Yao should, but never will.
How many rebounds do you want him to get? He has 9.9 which pretty much is 10 and he has averaged 10 RPG in the past. This year he is playing under limited minutes, he has been rebounding better recently though.

People complain about him not being able to get 10 RPG, then he does it and then these guys start making bigger excuses saying oh he's 7'6, he should be getting 11 at least. His expectations are beyond stupid.

[Kblaze8855]

Having missed 90+ games the last 4 years and having injuries totally rule him out of the playoffs in consecutive years....

While Howard has missed what? 2 games in 5 seasons?

I watched Unbreakable last night and am reminded of the little rant Mr.Glass had about how he knew he had to have an opposite who never got sick...never got hurt.

Its just a matter of time till someone heartless enough comes up with a nice photoshop.

Hes rapidly coming up on some names he does not want to be mentioned with. hes one more broken foot from us hearing Bill Waltons name thrown around. Only without the ring, mvp, and so on Walton had before he fell off.

[Kblaze8855]

Let me say this again.....if Dwight never learns legit ass post moves, his team will never win ****....plain and simple. The day he does win crap without post moves, whoever reads this thread and the guy that posted the response above can feel free to bump this thread.

26/13 in the ECF to join Kareem, Moses, Shaq, Hakeem, and Ewing as the only centers to lead a finals team in the last 30 years. Not exactly "winning" but its enough to end the argument that you cant win with him.

[RocketGreatness]

26/13 in the ECF to join Kareem, Moses, Shaq, Hakeem, and Ewing as the only centers to lead a finals team in the last 30 years. Not exactly "winning" but its enough to end the argument that you cant win with him.
Are you like a Dwight Howard or a Magic fan or something? Let's face it, people still have their opinion. Why don't you give Yao Ming 3 all-stars to play with and let's see how good he does? It's not his fault he plays in the West a tougher conference, it's not his fault he plays with a bunch of teammates that don't know how to pass, it's not his fault he doesn't play with 3 all-star is it?

Let's face it, Dwight is a great player Top 10 in the league, but he still failed to score on Kendrick Perkins and he also failed to contain him. Remember that.

[veilside23]

perk is different from the bynum's gasol's and odoms that you guys have.. so dont belittle d12 by checkin on perk.. remember perk is good defensively. he can match up pretty well. he was able to show he can defend gasol bynum howard and the rest.. so why do you always have to praise perk to make look howard is easy to defend.. perk is stronger than bynum and more specially than gasoft...

so we'll see what happens...

[Kblaze8855]

I dont care about the magic one way or the other. Dwight ive come to root for due to the hate he sees something like I did yao years ago before I stopped believing hed ever play at the level he should.

And really...Magic have 3 all stars? Nelson has been out half the year. Might as well bring up Tmac for Yao. Hedo? He put up 15 on 41% shooting these playoffs so far. Which is actually worse than Aaron Brooks.

And really...if all you have to say against Dwight is that he put up like 17/17 and allowed Perkins 10 points a game in 35 minutes(up from his season averaged of 9...in 30) in a series they won....

What is that really saying? He put up 24/16 in the first round and 26/13 knocking out a 66 win team with homecourt.....giving them 40/14 to make the finals. Whats really left to say?

As for people still having an opinion.....what is that telling me? Everyone has an opinion about everything. Doesnt mean everyone is right or everyone makes sense. Thinking Yao is better than Dwight isnt an absurd opinion....but it just feels like more and of a reach as time goes on.

[RocketGreatness]

I dont care about the magic one way or the other. Dwight ive come to root for due to the hate he sees something like I did yao years ago before I stopped believing hed ever play at the level he should.

And really...Magic have 3 all stars? Nelson has been out half the year. Might as well bring up Tmac for Yao. Hedo? He put up 15 on 41% shooting these playoffs so far. Which is actually worse than Aaron Brooks.

And really...if all you have to say against Dwight is that he put up like 17/17 and allowed Perkins 10 points a game in 35 minutes(up from his season averaged of 9...in 30) in a series they won....

What is that really saying? He put up 24/16 in the first round and 26/13 knocking out a 66 win team with homecourt.....giving them 40/14 to make the finals. Whats really left to say?

As for people still having an opinion.....what is that telling me? Everyone has an opinion about everything. Doesnt mean everyone is right or everyone makes sense. Thinking Yao is better than Dwight isnt an absurd opinion....but it just feels like more and of a reach as time goes on.
Yeah, Yao has a washed up Tracy McGrady, that's more useful than Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu. Yep. :rolleyes:

Dwight struggled against Perkins, You can look up any stat, but anybody who watched the series can tell you that Perkins did an excellent job defending Dwight in single coverage. Most of his points came from offensive rebounds and putbacks anyways. Nothing special, he can't create for himself against good post defenders like Yao, Perkins and Sheed.

Dwight has done a good job getting to the Finals, but nothing special.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Yeah, Yao has a washed up Tracy McGrady, that's more useful than Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu. Yep. :rolleyes:

Dwight struggled against Perkins, You can look up any stat, but anybody who watched the series can tell you that Perkins did an excellent job defending Dwight in single coverage. Most of his points came from offensive rebounds and putbacks anyways. Nothing special, he can't create for himself against good post defenders like Yao, Perkins and Sheed.

Dwight has done a good job getting to the Finals, but nothing special.
Before this season, T Mac was still one of the best players in the league and a top 3 shooting guard. And Yao is surrounded with superb role players. Then they added Artest this year? Ridiculous.

[RocketGreatness]

Before this season, T Mac was still one of the best players in the league and a top 3 shooting guard. And Yao is surrounded with superb role players. Then they added Artest this year? Ridiculous.
Before this season....Before this season, we also didn't have that many good role players. Yao is surrounded by superb role players, and so is Dwight Howard. Yep, we got Ron Artest. Who often at times thinks he's Kobe Bryant out there a.k.a he can be a black hole on offense.

It's still a debate, not lopsided or anything. I still believe Yao is better and I'm sure others do too.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah, Yao has a washed up Tracy McGrady, that's more useful than Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu. Yep.

You know Yao and Tmac have been teammates for 5 years right? And as I said...Hedo put up 15 on 41% shooting. He made some big shots but hes hardly carried them. Hes played at a level that would make Rocket fans hate on Tmac if he did it. Because Tmac has been much better.....


Dwight struggled against Perkins, You can look up any stat, but anybody who watched the series can tell you that Perkins did an excellent job defending Dwight in single coverage. Most of his points came from offensive rebounds and putbacks anyways. Nothing special, he can't create for himself against good post defenders like Yao, Perkins and Sheed.

A myth and nothing more. Nobody...and I mean nobody scores what he does being spoonfed by others. Dwight just makes people disregard a lot of basketball. 90% of the game is off the ball. What is running the floor hard and getting deep post position where you cant be guarded if not creating a shot for yourself? What is getting an offensive rebound 90% of players wouldnt and scoring...if not creating a shot? And really...we still pretending Dwight cant score one on one? This guy has been a solid scorer one on one for a few years now. Not having classic go to moves doesnt mean he doesnt score. You dont drop 40 in the playoffs when you cant score. Guy is out there spinning througn the lane, making shooks with both hands, and getting to the line at a great rate because when he touches it near the basket you cant stop him. So they foul. Dwight has room to improve as a scorer....but you do do what hes done when youre easy to shut down.


Dwight has done a good job getting to the Finals, but nothing special.

Nothing special when judged next to the other bigmen to do the same thing. But when you look at that list....not many of them scream "Not special".

Dwight might not when the title(I wouldnt call them the favorite)....but to say he cant is at this point hard to justify.

Dwight does damn near everything people say he cant. Say he cant make his own shot and won win anything. He does it night after night and goes to the finals while still holding down the D and controlling the boards.

Dwight could realistically contend for years to come and people are quickly running out of negative things to say about him.

[Kblaze8855]

It's still a debate, not lopsided or anything. I still believe Yao is better and I'm sure others do too.


Im sure you are right. Im also sure a lot of those people are in Houston. Or China. Not all...but a lot.

Id bet anything a poll of those with litte reason to favor one or the other would lean heavily towards Dwight. Which wouldnt make it true. But still.

[RocketGreatness]

You know Yao and Tmac have been teammates for 5 years right? And as I said...Hedo put up 15 on 41% shooting. He made some big shots but hes hardly carried them. Hes played at a level that would make Rocket fans hate on Tmac if he did it. Because Tmac has been much better.....
Um...Yeah. But T-Mac also was terrible this season, so I don't get your point, the point is you have no point. Hedo sucked, but how about Shard? You fail.

A myth and nothing more. Nobody...and I mean nobody scores what he does being spoonfed by others. Dwight just makes people disregard a lot of basketball. 90% of the game is off the ball. What is running the floor hard and getting deep post position where you cant be guarded if not creating a shot for yourself? What is getting an offensive rebound 90% of players wouldnt and scoring...if not creating a shot? And really...we still pretending Dwight cant score one on one? This guy has been a solid scorer one on one for a few years now. Not having classic go to moves doesnt mean he doesnt score. You dont drop 40 in the playoffs when you cant score. Guy is out there spinning througn the lane, making shooks with both hands, and getting to the line at a great rate because when he touches it near the basket you cant stop him. So they foul. Dwight has room to improve as a scorer....but you do do what hes done when youre easy to shut down.

Again Perkins still contained him and shut him down, Yes he did do a nice job getting the offensive boards and getting put bucks, but He still can't score 1 on 1 against elite post defenders. Can he score 1 on 1? Yes, but not as efficient and consistent as Yao or Shaq. He scored the same way David Robinson did without the touch. He ran up and down the floor very well and had a lot of dunks being feeded by others. The only difference is Dwight didn't have the mid-range jumper like Admiral did. Honestly, You have your opinion and I have mine. It doesn't matter. Dwight needs to put up Wilt Chamberlain like numbers and win if he really wants to change my mind. Because as of now, it's not changing and I don't expected Dwight to dominate like he did against Big Z.

[Kblaze8855]

Um...Yeah. But T-Mac also was terrible this season, so I don't get your point, the point is you have no point. Hedo sucked, but how about Shard? You fail.

I fail because Rashard Lewis played....ok? He had 15, 17, 15, and 18 the last 4 games vs the Cavs. He made big shots but neither he or Hedo just played amazing ball.

Is the second best player on a finals team being better than average but not all that good....unusual? Look at the 2 and 3 on the last few finals teams:

Pierce and Ray and Gasol and Odom
Manu and Parker and Z and...whoever. Hughes I suppose.
Howard and terry and Shaq and Walker
Manu and Parker and Rip and Ben Wallace
Kobe and Malone/Payton and the Pistons again

By the standards of second and third best players on finals teams...Rashard and Hedo are hardly special. Lebrons team aside they are probably the worst of the group. And maybe if Yaos teammates were not for the second year in a row without him when it mattered they would have made a better showing. Not that they didnt play well without him. But you cant ask #2s and role players to run things vs a team like the Lakers while Yao is watching and then act like they suck. They did a hell of a lot better than expected.




Again Perkins still contained him and shut him down.

He didnt score much but Dwight as good as he is on offense is a player who does other things. He scored less and averaged 17 rebounds and 3 blocks a game. He had a game with 10 offensive rebounds(of 22 total). Dwight virtually always finds a way to contribute. And its not like he was Ben Wallace out there. If not for their massive blowout win where he played just 28 minutes(and got 17/14 with 5 blocks in them) he might have been in the area of 18/18 for the series. That such a series...a win at that...is used to hate on him? It says a lot. If the low point of your playoffs is that good...you are a beast. Tim duncan was worse vs the Hornets than Dwight was vs the Celtics. Doesnt mean anything. Its one series. And as I said...its a hell of a series to be your worst.

And its not like Yao was out there owning the playoffs. He put up 16/11 vs the Blazers with a great start and mostly forgettable moments to follow and then missed most of the Laker series.


Yes he did do a nice job getting the offensive boards and getting put bucks, but He still can't score 1 on 1 against elite post defenders. Can he score 1 on 1? Yes, but not as efficient and consistent as Yao or Shaq. He scored the same way David Robinson did without the touch. He ran up and down the floor very well and had a lot of dunks being feeded by others. The only difference is Dwight didn't have the mid-range jumper like Admiral did. Honestly, You have your opinion and I have mine. It doesn't matter. Dwight needs to put up Wilt Chamberlain like numbers and win if he really wants to change my mind. Because as of now, it's not changing and I don't expected Dwight to dominate like he did against Big Z.

Youre a rocket fan. Of course hed have to be unfairly good to change your mind. And while Yao can score in more traditional ways I fail to see the relevance when he doesnt do it. People say "Well you can go to him at the end of games.". How exactly has that translated to on the court success? yao could potentially outscore Dwight. But he doesnt. Give me a reason to rank Yao over Dwight that I dont also have to rank Rony Seikaly over Dwight(especially considering the smaller gap between the rest of their games.

At what point does the hypothetical get thrown out in favor of reality?

In theory Yao being a skilled scorer and shooter makes him more effective and able to score big baskets to win his team games. And yet? He has all this ability to score and goes out and has games with 2-3 fieldgoals as he did 3 times in the playoffs. Of what use is the greater variety of around the basket moves when Yao doesnt use them and Dwight goes out and gets 26/13 on 65% shooting to get his team to the finals? Hes better because he could potentially do the only thing he does better than Howard....even though he doesnt.

Dwight scores more and does everything else id want out of a bigman better aside from pass...and Yao has been turnover prone and playing below his potential as a playmaker as well for years.

Yao is better than Dwight in theory but does not play better. Thats when he plays I mean. In the 100 games and 2 post seasons when hes gone down....you reeeeeally gotta go into hypothetical. If Yao were able to do something hes physically incapable of....and do that that at a rate hes proven unable or unwilling to do....he could be better than Dwight. But I like to live in the world as it is not the one that could be. And in the world that is...Dwight has played better than yao for the last 2 years and is a far far more reliable option because hes not made of peanut brittle. The Yao side of this is starting to sound more and more like the Brad Daugherty end of an argument I used to have on him vs Ewing.

[ronnymac]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I fail because Rashard Lewis played....ok? He had 15, 17, 15, and 18 the last 4 games vs the Cavs. He made big shots but neither he or Hedo just played amazing ball.

Is the second best player on a finals team being better than average but not all that good....unusual? Look at the 2 and 3 on the last few finals teams:

Pierce and Ray and Gasol and Odom
Manu and Parker and Z and...whoever. Hughes I suppose.
Howard and terry and Shaq and Walker
Manu and Parker and Rip and Ben Wallace
Kobe and Malone/Payton and the Pistons again

By the standards of second and third best players on finals teams...Rashard and Hedo are hardly special. Lebrons team aside they are probably the worst of the group. And maybe if Yaos teammates were not for the second year in a row without him when it mattered they would have made a better showing. Not that they didnt play well without him. But you cant ask #2s and role players to run things vs a team like the Lakers while Yao is watching and then act like they suck. They did a hell of a lot better than expected.





He didnt score much but Dwight as good as he is on offense is a player who does other things. He scored less and averaged 17 rebounds and 3 blocks a game. He had a game with 10 offensive rebounds(of 22 total). Dwight virtually always finds a way to contribute. And its not like he was Ben Wallace out there. If not for their massive blowout win where he played just 28 minutes(and got 17/14 with 5 blocks in them) he might have been in the area of 18/18 for the series. That such a series...a win at that...is used to hate on him? It says a lot. If the low point of your playoffs is that good...you are a beast. Tim duncan was worse vs the Hornets than Dwight was vs the Celtics. Doesnt mean anything. Its one series. And as I said...its a hell of a series to be your worst.

And its not like Yao was out there owning the playoffs. He put up 16/11 vs the Blazers with a great start and mostly forgettable moments to follow and then missed most of the Laker series.



Youre a rocket fan.
NO HE IS NOT. he is a YAO-ONLY-FAN. all he cares about is his beloved yao. he is from china and all he cares about is yao.see his threads about bashing books for not passing it to yao. he even as far as calling brooks racist. this clown dosent represent the rockets fan here.

[Kblaze8855]

Understood. While it seems ive missed most of his worst work and because of it cant rank him down there.....some of the worst posters ever on here are the fans of an individual who hate the team he plays for. See it with Kobe, Dirk, and sadly Jordan fans a lot for some reason.

[KeylessEntry]

The Yao side of this is starting to sound more and more like the Brad Daugherty end of an argument I used to have on him vs Ewing.

:roll:

That was the best Yao vs Dwight post I have ever read. Kblaze i would kiss you right now (no homo)

[RocketGreatness]

Understood. While it seems ive missed most of his worst work and because of it cant rank him down there.....some of the worst posters ever on here are the fans of an individual who hate the team he plays for. See it with Kobe, Dirk, and sadly Jordan fans a lot for some reason.
Really you are going to listen to that random homo? The dude is from Australia for crying out loud. He's a Tracy only fan who pretends to be a Rocket fan. I've been a fan of the Rockets since the 90s when Hakeem Olajuwon was here. Again, you still have proven absolutely nothing to me actually. But it's fine you are pretty much talking to a wall here and I'm just letting you know.

[Bigsmoke]

Yao. Anybody who says otherwise is either racist or doesn't understand basketball or both.


Dwight is going to the finals now... wheres Yao at?

[Kblaze8855]

Really you are going to listen to that random homo? The dude is from Australia for crying out loud. He's a Tracy only fan who pretends to be a Rocket fan. I've been a fan of the Rockets since the 90s when Hakeem Olajuwon was here. Again, you still have proven absolutely nothing to me actually. But it's fine you are pretty much talking to a wall here and I'm just letting you know.

Nothing says "reason" like admitting youre a wall.

I dont care what I prove to you really. I dont think youre the type to let reality much factor in compared to your natural bias. Nobody online really changes what they think. They just explain it. Or dont...and say its their right to think it even if they cant justify it.

[ronnymac]

Really you are going to listen to that random homo? The dude is from Australia for crying out loud. He's a Tracy only fan who pretends to be a Rocket fan. I've been a fan of the Rockets since the 90s when Hakeem Olajuwon was here. Again, you still have proven absolutely nothing to me actually. But it's fine you are pretty much talking to a wall here and I'm just letting you know.
Oh yeah being in australia means i'm not a longtime fan. stupid nerd. i was a rockets fan when we had mark bryant, chris jent, matt bullard, elden recasiener, robert horry, cassell to eddie jhonson to antoine carr and shandon aderson you fraud. i've been a fan since 93. you'e a yao only fan and anyone with a miniscule amount of brain an see that.

[D-Rose]

Really you are going to listen to that random homo? The dude is from Australia for crying out loud. He's a Tracy only fan who pretends to be a Rocket fan. I've been a fan of the Rockets since the 90s when Hakeem Olajuwon was here. Again, you still have proven absolutely nothing to me actually. But it's fine you are pretty much talking to a wall here and I'm just letting you know.
You've been a fan since the 90's? How old are you again?

[Foster5k]

One word...

Healthy

That's all I'm going to say.

[Legend of Josh]

I may still be in the minority here going with Yao, but if Yao could stay as healthy as Delight, I'd take my chances with new school Ming Dynasty.

[RocketGreatness]

Nothing says "reason" like admitting youre a wall.

I dont care what I prove to you really. I dont think youre the type to let reality much factor in compared to your natural bias. Nobody online really changes what they think. They just explain it. Or dont...and say its their right to think it even if they cant justify it.
Why don't you bump this thread now like you have been in the past 2 weeks? :oldlol:


I may still be in the minority here going with Yao, but if Yao could stay as healthy as Delight, I'd take my chances with new school Ming Dynasty.
It's not that big of a minority on this forum. In other forums where Stats determine everything, then we would be minorities.

[Papaya Petee]

Dwight has done everything possible to prove that hes better then Yao, but a few Houston Rocket fans just don't understand. I mean whats the point of leading your team further against much better teams, being a better scorer and rebounder and shot blocker and defender, whats the point of being All NBA First team and All Defense First team, whats the point of being DPOY, whats the point of being in the NBA Finals, when Yao Ming has a better Post-Up Game?

[RocketGreatness]

Dwight has done everything possible to prove that hes better then Yao, but a few Houston Rocket fans just don't understand. I mean whats the point of leading your team further against much better teams, being a better scorer and rebounder and shot blocker and defender, whats the point of being All NBA First team and All Defense First team, whats the point of being DPOY, whats the point of being in the NBA Finals, when Yao Ming has a better Post-Up Game?
Howard is not a better scorer, I'm sorry you are too stubborn to understand the game of basketball. Maybe if you actually played it in your lifetime, you would understand.

[Papaya Petee]

Howard is not a better scorer, I'm sorry you are too stubborn to understand the game of basketball. Maybe if you actually played it in your lifetime, you would understand.


Your right becuase I don't play suburban and AAU basketball, and I just dont understand. :rolleyes:

My friend on my AAU team scores 16 points a game, and I score 14, but I score in 50 ways while he scores by only shooting 3's and floaters, whos the better scorer?.

Whatever, Im done arguing with you plus my post wasn't intended to you.

[1~Gibson~1]

Yao Ming > Dwight Howard

[Papaya Petee]

Yao Ming > Dwight Howard


Can you explain to me how though? I really want to know, becuase this RocketGreatness clown only bases it on Post-Up game.

[depletedW]

Yao is currently a more polished scorer and is also a reliable free throw shooter.

But Dwight has surpassed him. While he is not as skilled on the offensive end, his defense, athletisicm, and the potential he has is hard to overlook. Not to mention that he is younger than Yao. Dwight also seems to possess a few of the intangible qualities it takes to become a star and he has a good understanding that his team needs him to carry them.

[1~Gibson~1]

He just is. It's self explanitory.

Yao has better post moves, defense might not be as good but he's still good defensively, Yao isnt as good a rebounder but some of Dwight's rebounds are overrated becuase he plays with 2 SFs and there is no LEGIT PF in their lineup, and the ultimate stat (head-to-head) Yao owns Dwight.

[RocketGreatness]

Your right becuase I don't play suburban and AAU basketball, and I just dont understand. :rolleyes:

My friend on my AAU team scores 16 points a game, and I score 14, but I score in 50 ways while he scores by only shooting 3's and floaters, whos the better scorer?.

Whatever, Im done arguing with you plus my post wasn't intended to you.
No you don't understand, thank you for letting me know.

I don't care who scores better, because you are lying regardless.


Can you explain to me how though? I really want to know, becuase this RocketGreatness clown only bases it on Post-Up game.
Take the time to read and It's more than that you idiot


He just is. It's self explanitory.

Yao has better post moves, defense might not be as good but he's still good defensively, Yao isnt as good a rebounder but some of Dwight's rebounds are overrated becuase he plays with 2 SFs and there is no LEGIT PF in their lineup, and the ultimate stat (head-to-head) Yao owns Dwight.
I've said the same shit and he doesn't understand.

[Papaya Petee]

No you don't understand, thank you for letting me know.

I don't care who scores better, because you are lying regardless.


Take the time to read and It's more than that you idiot


I've said the same shit and he doesn't understand.


What am I lying about? Yeah I go on a basketball forum and talk because I never played basketball in my life? :banghead:


and I don't give a **** what you said because I been giving you reasons and reasons and reasons why Dwight > Yao but you don't even listen to what the opposing side has to say. But whatever, Yao must have a lot of fun watching Dwight in the nba finals on TV.

[RocketGreatness]

What am I lying about? Yeah I go on a basketball forum and talk because I never played basketball in my life? :banghead:


and I don't give a **** what you said because I been giving you reasons and reasons and reasons why Dwight > Yao but you don't even listen to what the opposing side has to say. But whatever, Yao must have a lot of fun watching Dwight in the nba finals on TV.
You given reasons which have been debunked and you remain to give the same reasons. Your maturity level needs work, I never knew they let AAU players have that maturity level. Oh wait, because you don't play for AAU.

[RocketGreatness]

Howard exposed again, It's funny is because if the Magic won the Finals, I could guarantee you a long paragraph by KBlaze. Well It's my turn to bump it up.

[Xsatyr]

Howard exposed again, It's funny is because if the Magic won the Finals, I could guarantee you a long paragraph by KBlaze. Well It's my turn to bump it up.I am a Yao fan and can't stand your agenda against Dwight. But this I agree with.

[JJ81]

Give it up for Gasol. He contained the two best centers in the league in Yao and Dwight. GA-STRONG!

[Kblaze8855]

Howard exposed again, It's funny is because if the Magic won the Finals, I could guarantee you a long paragraph by KBlaze. Well It's my turn to bump it up.

A bum to say the Magic didnt win a series I never said they should/would win and Howard didnt lead his team to the ring when the other subject of this topic went out in the second round vs the same team as he went down for the second straight playoffs?

Howard got "exposed" like anyone else losing in the finals. Hes on a long long list of bigmen to lead his team to the finals and lose. A list I believe is entirely populated by hall of famers with the exception of Kemp.

If merely not winning the title when you lead a finals run you were not predicted to is being exposed what have every other bigman aside from Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, and KG been doing for the last....26 years?

Howard is a first ballot hall of famer with maybe....3 more years like this and a few more at the level he was at 3 years ago. When hes done people will include this year as justification for wherever they rank him all time. In the grand scheme of things...losing in the finals is only seen as a negative to the true all time elites. Barkley. Ewing. Dwight? Hes a 23-24 yearold who had a great run and lost in the finals as the underdog.

There are people in the hall of fame who cant say that. A lot of them.

[gyu]

A bum to say the Magic didnt win a series I never said they should/would win and Howard didnt lead his team to the ring when the other subject of this topic went out in the second round vs the same team as he went down for the second straight playoffs?

Howard got "exposed" like anyone else losing in the finals. Hes on a long long list of bigmen to lead his team to the finals and lose. A list I believe is entirely populated by hall of famers with the exception of Kemp.

If merely not winning the title when you lead a finals run you were not predicted to is being exposed what have every other bigman aside from Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, and KG been doing for the last....26 years?

Howard is a first ballot hall of famer with maybe....3 more years like this and a few more at the level he was at 3 years ago. When hes done people will include this year as justification for wherever they rank him all time. In the grand scheme of things...losing in the finals is only seen as a negative to the true all time elites. Barkley. Ewing. Dwight? Hes a 23-24 yearold who had a great run and lost in the finals as the underdog.

There are people in the hall of fame who cant say that. A lot of them.
I don't think he necessarily means Howard got exposed by losing in the Finals, just not playing up to par.

[Kblaze8855]

If the argument is who the best center is....not dominating in the playoffs could likely not be used to expose any of the contenders because none of them have too great a trackrecord. The best playoff performer as far as what it seems is the only thing we care about(scoring) of the group is probably Amare.

[BonyFaceNDong]

Form so many games I've seen, Howard got a lot more help from refs than Yao, it's not even close. Dwight comes to normal when his fouls are called on both ends of the floor, and he is allowed to be guarded physically. Nevertheless, he's better defensively. And of course he's much younger and much healthier.

Overall, Howard's stats is bigger than his impact, Yao's impact is bigger than his stats.

[RocketGreatness]

I don't think he necessarily means Howard got exposed by losing in the Finals, just not playing up to par.
Pretty much, I would say he did exposed though just like Kendrick Perkins did 2 rounds ago. Give all the stats you want, but Dwight was shut down by the Lakers defense and was shut down all by Kendrick Perkins in single coverage. Yao remains as the best center in basketball.

All said and done, People act like Dwight has loser teammates like LeBron had in 2007 when he pretty much has 2 all-stars, 3 if you add Jameer Nelson. Hedo may not have been an all-star, but he was worthy last season and this season as well.

[Kblaze8855]

Pretty much, I would say he did exposed though just like Kendrick Perkins did 2 rounds ago. Give all the stats you want, but Dwight was shut down by the Lakers defense and was shut down all by Kendrick Perkins in single coverage. Yao remain as the best center in basketball.

For one....if Dwight were shut down it would have little bearing on the matchup with Yao considering that Yao has never done anything of relevance in the playoffs himself. Took 7 years to win a series and then vs the Lakers he had a big game one(28 points), made 3 shots in game 2, and went 6-14 in game 3 before his usual injury related exit. Yao has done nothing in his entire career that makes Dwights performance these playoffs look bad. He had a good series vs the Mavs. But nothing Dwight has not done better.

Yao has nothing in his history that somehow exposes Dwight in comparison. As I said...Amare is the only player in the argument for best center who has. Which again...is if we only consider what Dwight does for the tiny fraction of his playing time(id say about 1/40th) he has the ball and is looking to score.

Of course basketball is only being played while in posession of the ball and trying to score yourself.

[RocketGreatness]

For one....if Dwight were shut down it would have little bearing on the matchup with Yao considering that Yao has never done anything of relevance in the playoffs himself. Took 7 years to win a series and then vs the Lakers he had a big game one(28 points), made 3 shots in game 2, and went 6-14 in game 3 before his usual injury related exit. Yao has done nothing in his entire career that makes Dwights performance these playoffs look bad. He had a good series vs the Mavs. But nothing Dwight has not done better.

Yao has nothing in his history that somehow exposes Dwight in comparison. As I said...Amare is the only player in the argument for best center who has. Which again...is if we only consider what Dwight does for the tiny fraction of his playing time(id say about 1/40th) he has the ball and is looking to score.

Of course basketball is only being played while in posession of the ball and trying to score yourself.
Maybe if there was some type of achievement for making the Finals and losing you would have a point, too bad there is none. Yao has played well in the playoffs with his impact ever since he's been in the league. Dwight has, but against pretty bad bigs. You can argue all you want, but we all know you would've written an essay if Dwight actually won it all.

[Kblaze8855]

Ive been here for a long time writing essays about a lot of subjects. One of the longest was on how underrated Yao was at the time. But you are as good as you are. Not as good as you could be.

And no you dont get anything for losing in the finals. But its the only level you play for the chance to be a true winner. And it takes something just to get there. Elvin Hayes. Kareem. Moses. Barkley. Hakeem. Ewing. Shaq. Malone. Duncan. Kg. Dwight Howard. Only bigmen who led a team to the finals the last 30 years.

Its not winning it all.....but its sure as hell an "achievement". Much as it may bug you....if Yao never does it its very very likely Dwight is remembered as the best center of his(post Shaq) era and Yao ends up the Brad Daugherty to Dwights Ewing. Dwights been generally considered the best center in the league the last couple years. Making the finals only raises his profile.

Barring the unlikely(but not impossible) full health of the Rockets(yao and tmac...Artest sane....everythng goes right)....and an amazing year....Dwight will likely be considered better than Yao forever. Doesnt make it true....but at some point it does make arguing over it futile.

[BonyFaceNDong]

For one....if Dwight were shut down it would have little bearing on the matchup with Yao considering that Yao has never done anything of relevance in the playoffs himself. Took 7 years to win a series and then vs the Lakers he had a big game one(28 points), made 3 shots in game 2, and went 6-14 in game 3 before his usual injury related exit. Yao has done nothing in his entire career that makes Dwights performance these playoffs look bad. He had a good series vs the Mavs. But nothing Dwight has not done better.

Yao has nothing in his history that somehow exposes Dwight in comparison. As I said...Amare is the only player in the argument for best center who has. Which again...is if we only consider what Dwight does for the tiny fraction of his playing time(id say about 1/40th) he has the ball and is looking to score.

Of course basketball is only being played while in posession of the ball and trying to score yourself.

Yao only played half of the game because of bogus fouls in 2nd game, you know NBA won't let Lakers down 0-2 at home.

Yao was killing Gasol and Lakers in first half game 3, then his foot was broken, played like a crap in 2nd half as expected.

[RocketGreatness]

Ive been here for a long time writing essays about a lot of subjects. One of the longest was on how underrated Yao was at the time. But you are as good as you are. Not as good as you could be.

And no you dont get anything for losing in the finals. But its the only level you play for the chance to be a true winner. And it takes something just to get there. Elvin Hayes. Kareem. Moses. Barkley. Hakeem. Ewing. Shaq. Malone. Duncan. Kg. Dwight Howard. Only bigmen who led a team to the finals the last 30 years.

Its not winning it all.....but its sure as hell an "achievement". Much as it may bug you....if Yao never does it its very very likely Dwight is remembered as the best center of his(post Shaq) era and Yao ends up the Brad Daugherty to Dwights Ewing. Dwights been generally considered the best center in the league the last couple years. Making the finals only raises his profile.

Barring the unlikely(but not impossible) full health of the Rockets(yao and tmac...Artest sane....everythng goes right)....and an amazing year....Dwight will likely be considered better than Yao forever. Doesnt make it true....but at some point it does make arguing over it futile.
Fair enough, I am still optimistic about him staying healthy for next season though especially looking at his off-season goals and having a legit offseason for the 1st time in his NBA career. All said and done, IMO Yao is the best center in the NBA I'm sure there are non rocket fans that will agree with me and some that will not. But Dwight hasn't dominated like most fans usually say to overrate him.

[Kblaze8855]

Yao only played half of the game because of bogus fouls in 2nd game, you know NBA won't let Lakers down 0-2 at home.

Yao was killing Gasol and Lakers in first half game 3, then his foot was broken, played like a crap in 2nd half as expected.

The foul issue(especially the rigging issue...) isnt one I feel a need to get into. Neither Yao or Dwight get many calls. I just said what he did. All there is is your performance. The whys are relevant but when the issue is how well you played the bottom line is the bottom line. If Yao got in foul trouble and then broke his foot and thats why he didnt dominate much it would if anything support the arguments of his critics.

Anyway....


Fair enough, I am still optimistic about him staying healthy for next season though especially looking at his off-season goals and having a legit offseason for the 1st time in his NBA career. All said and done, IMO Yao is the best center in the NBA I'm sure there are non rocket fans that will agree with me and some that will not. But Dwight hasn't dominated like most fans usually say to overrate him.

Just depends on the standard set. If the standard is Shaq...of course not. If the standard is the one set by the only other 2 centers at or near his level? Both of them have had massive injury issues and failed to win like him in the playoffs or produce at the rate he does. Dwight is dominant by the watered down standard set for centers now.

Hes not dominant like Hakeem...or Drob...or maybe not even Zo. The closest comparison I can think of is a young Kevin Willis. Doesnt take that much to be the best center when your only rivals are injured and on consistently underachieving teams.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

It's obviously Yao. This should not even be a debate anymore.

[BonyFaceNDong]

The foul issue(especially the rigging issue...) isnt one I feel a need to get into. Neither Yao or Dwight get many calls. I just said what he did. All there is is your performance. The whys are relevant but when the issue is how well you played the bottom line is the bottom line. If Yao got in foul trouble and then broke his foot and thats why he didnt dominate much it would if anything support the arguments of his critics.

.

Bottom line is bottom line, I agree with that. So I don't have problem that Howard was in 1st team NBA. He gets the job done and stays healthy.

But fact is fact, Howard gets away with more fouls and gets much more favorable calls than Yao in general. I've seen enough games to draw this conclusion.

[Splitz77]

Dwight Howard.

Yao cannot be better than Howard and this very moment in time because its hard to be better than someone with a fractured foot.

[Kblaze8855]

I was searching for something and came up on this topic....

It didnt hit me till just now how long Yao has been hurt. 2 years ago people were just holding out hope he would be healthy for 09/10. He missed all of that season...and played 5 games before missing this one. The last season that he made it through the season and playoffs was 2005.....

I remember when him being drafted was the biggest thing on here. How he would fit in with Francis and all kinds of bets on how he would do.

Dwight has taken off to another level but I honestly wish we still had a Yao worth comparing to him.

Yao seems like he might actually be a good person. Which I find rare with athletes. Really wishing they could catch a break. I dont care too much about millionaires forced to live a "normal" life most of the time but damn...

Its hard not to want to see Yao do well.

[ICanDunk]

On the first page of this thread someone said he'd take Yao without the injury risk. Unfortunately that's not realistic :(

[brantonli]

I have to say I'm surprised, I came into this thread expecting to see a spammer or a noob bump up such an old thread, but saw it was KBlaze :lol

I remember the excitement, the hype when Yao was drafted. The news was covering him in HK, there were frontline and whole pages about Yao (I distinctly remember a picture of Yao with his arms outstretched dominating two pages in a newspaper). I mean, Yao is the reason why I got into the NBA in the first place. Before that, I'd never heard of Kobe, Duncan, Iverson, Shaq (although for some reason I did know who Garnett was). I was just 9 when he joined the NBA (yeah I'm sort of young I guess) but I still remember the nervous tension of seeing a Chinese guy break into the NBA.

I wish Yao can come back, even in a sort of Dikembe way at the end of his career (without the funny accent unfortunately) and I don't care if he needs a bionic foot.

[Harion]

it's just sad how Yao's career turned out. we could've had him in Miami. :cry:

[HylianNightmare]

Yao obviously

[Rockets(T-mac)]

Injuries are the worst part of sports. Losing well at least you had the chance to play, but getting injured and only thinking of what could've been really sucks.

And yea Yao really is a good guy, so humble never complains, never demands the ball (actually one of his weaknesses). The guy was just a nice guy, sad that this kind of thing happens to the nice ones.

Really enjoyed watching him play though.

[coin24]

I feel sorry for Yao, seems like a nice guy and always played hard:applause:

I heard he's rehabbing now, so maybe he will play again. Not sure what the chinese did to him before birth/while young but I hope he can live a normal life after basketball..Some of the long term effects of hgh/peps etc arent pretty... Obviously his body is starting to crumble and i think if he goes down again he should call it quits...

Sad to see because he was a real force when healthy.

Hard to choose who is better because Yao was a few years ago now and Dwight is now so its not really relevant anymore imo... Yao was pretty much unstoppable, excellent ft shooter etc, if both healthy you would have to choose yao but thats not a reality anymore, so I guess Howard wins it.

If dwight keeps on improving he will be better than prime yao anyway i think, if he can work on the ft's and a few more post moves he will be pretty much unstoppable, basically he is now anyway. Only problem is that his team is shit and lets him down...

[ICanDunk]

Not sure what the chinese did to him before birth/while young but I hope he can live a normal life after basketball..Some of the long term effects of hgh/peps etc arent pretty... Obviously his body is starting to crumble and i think if he goes down again he should call it quits...

I never thought of that but that sounds very believable.