Better Playoff Performer? Kobe, Vince or Iverson

[TmacsRockets]

Playoffs

Kobe Bryant
24.3 ppg, 44.5% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg

Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg


Vince's playoff numbers are much better than Kobe as is his PER.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

25. Vince Carter 21.40
26. Kobe Bryant 21.29
27. Allen Iverson 21.23


Iverson has 10 games of 40+ and in one playoffs alone had 6 games of 40+ points. In fact, Kobe only has 6 games of 40+ in his entire playoff career.

[Trash]

In order:

1. Vince Carter
2. Allen Iverson
3. Kobe Bryant

Take it from someone who was a diehard Kobe fan up until this year... this guy is FINISHED. Done. Washed up. Whatever you want to call it.

I actually feel embarrassed to tell people that I was ever a fan of such a mediocre player. Kobe Bryant isn't even a top 5 player in today's league. He'd be RINGLESS had Shaq not carried him to three straight titles.

Go look at the head to heads of Kobe vs. Carter. Carter has been shutting him down in the last few meetings.

[KeylessEntry]

and it starts again....

[Trash]

Playoffs

Kobe Bryant
24.3 ppg, 44.5% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg

Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg


Vince's playoff numbers are much better than Kobe as is his PER.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

25. Vince Carter 21.40
26. Kobe Bryant 21.29
27. Allen Iverson 21.23


Iverson has 10 games of 40+ and in one playoffs alone had 6 games of 40+ points. In fact, Kobe only has 6 games of 40+ in his entire playoff career.Can you send me a PM?

[nbastatus]

probably vince carter.
but kobe has more playoff success.

[iTruWarrior]

The one who led his team to the Finals and has a ring as well. That being said, Kobe Bryant..

I still think Kobe is being a little bit overrated at his clutchness. Most of the time he comes through, however people act like he's more clutch than Bird and Jordan. Far from it....

[Brujesino]

i would say iverson he took his team to the finals and made his team

kobe had shaq for the most part

iam not too sure how far vince has gotten in the playoffs

[Fatal9]

:oldlol:

Vince Carter has won 3 series in his entire 12 year career, all of them against mediocre teams. In the other three playoff years his teams have been swept.

Since Kobe has had his own team (like Vince has for all his career), his stats have been 30/6/5 on 48%. This includes leading a heavy underdog team to 7 games against the #2 seed, and a trip to the finals where along the way, he beat the defending champions.

Unlike many other stars he hasn't been the #1 option all his career (averages go down) and was still developing his game for atleast the first 4 years of his career. Career averages really mean nothing. We could use them to show AI is a better scorer than Kobe when he is clearly not.

[BMOGEFan]

Kobe 3 rings, 4 finals appearance.

Vince + AI = one final appearance, no rings.

[Fatal9]

Iverson's shooting percentages in the playoff by year:

41.1%
38.4%
38.9% (MVP year where he carried the team LOL)
38.1%
41.6%
46.8%
36.8%
36.8%


When are people going to realize that in the 2000 year, the East was the weakest that it has probably ever been (only one other team outside of Sixers won over 50 games...last year every team in the West was over 50). And what about the great defense of the Larry Brown coached teams which is the main reason Iverson could shoot these low percentages and still win a game?

[bruceblitz]

probably vince carter.
but kobe has more playoff success.
:confusedshrug: :wtf:

Vince Carter is the best playoff performer out of the 3, but the biggest difference is simple:

Iverson and Vince never had Shaq as a teammate or Phil Jackson as a coach, not to mention the supporting cast that's been put around Kobe his entire career.

2000 Finals vs Indiana Pacers
Shaq 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG
Kobe 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG

2001 Finals vs Philadelphia
Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG
Kobe 24ppg 7rpg 5apg 41%FG

2002 Finals vs New Jersey Nets
Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG
Kobe 26ppg 5rpg 5apg 51%FG

2004 Finals vs Detroit
Shaq 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG
Kobe 22ppg 2rpg 4apg 38%FG
(maybe Kobe should have given the ball to Shaq more? Why do you think Shaq left?)

2008 Finals vs Boston Celtics
Kobe 25ppg 4reb 5ast 40%fg
Shaq = old and gone, too bad for Kobe

Remember, Iverson led a bum ass Sixers team to an actual win in the Finals over Kobe AND Shaq, that speaks volumes. Imagine if Iverson or Vince had Shaq for a teammate even for half-a-decade, oh man they'd be wearing at least 3 rings. At least! Remember, Iverson was winning 4 scoring titles when Kobe was riding on superman's cape. I would still rank it like this though:
1)Vince
2a)Kobe
2b)Iverson

http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/shaq-and-kobe.jpg
That picture says it all. Out of 4 finals appearances with Shaq, Kobe didn't out-perform him once. Not once. Not even freaking close, AT BEST Kobe was Shaq's Pippen.



P.S. hopefully LeBron starts to raise his efficiency and level of play in the playoffs, so his playoff/finals resume doesn't look like this. Didn't get a good start against the Spurs. At least when Jordan ran into the world champion Celtics he put up a 63 point game for them to think about (playoff record).

[Crash]

2000 Finals vs Indiana Pacers
Shaq 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG
Kobe 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG

2001 Finals vs Philadelphia
Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG
Kobe 24ppg 7rpg 5apg 41%FG

2002 Finals vs New Jersey Nets
Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG
Kobe 26ppg 5rpg 5apg 51%FG

2004 Finals vs Detroit
Shaq 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG
Kobe 22ppg 2rpg 4apg 38%FG



I would argue that LA doesn't win any of those titles without Kobe's contribution.

The guy put up 26/5/5 in the finals and is being carried?

[Crash]

So here's what i take from reading this thread and other threads on the board...

- Phil is only great because he has had Kobe/Shaq/MJ
- Kobe's only great because he's had Shaq/Pau
- Kobe's only great because he's coached by Phil who is only great because he had Kobe/Shaq/MJ
- Shaq's only great because he had Kobe/Phil

At some point you gotta wonder about the agendas around here.... Laker fans get it, Kobe/Shaq and Phil are only great because they had each other and talent, otherwise they are all terrible.

[Fatal9]

Again, I repeat:

Kobe as the #1 option has put up 30/6/5 on 48% shooting over almost 40 playoff games. These are numbers that currently only Wade can be compared to (and exceed).

[KenneBell]

Kobe. Over the past 9 playoffs he's averaging 27/6/5. That's not shabby in my book. His numbers without Shaq are even better especially FG% wise.

[ruslan]

lol at vince being the best outta the 3

[bruceblitz]

2000 Finals vs Indiana Pacers
Shaq 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG
Kobe 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG

2001 Finals vs Philadelphia
Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG
Kobe 24ppg 7rpg 5apg 41%FG

2002 Finals vs New Jersey Nets
Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG
Kobe 26ppg 5rpg 5apg 51%FG

2004 Finals vs Detroit
Shaq 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG
Kobe 22ppg 2rpg 4apg 38%FG



I would argue that LA doesn't win any of those titles without Kobe's contribution.

The guy put up 26/5/5 in the finals and is being carried?
I love the way you hand pick his only decent contribution to the championships, and Shaq out-performed him by 8%fg, 10ppg, and 7 rebounds per game, rofl! People are hilarious. Nobody is saying Kobe was terrible, he did nothing spectacular ever in a full playoff run, EVER. That's the bottom line. Ignore it if you want to, I really don't care.

[bruceblitz]

lol at vince being the best outta the 3
:oldlol: @ anyone who can't see the fact that when he's been in the playoffs Vince has stepped up his level of play more than Iverson and Kobe have.

:oldlol: @ anyone who can't admit that Vince has played on bad teams his entire career, Iverson played on bad teams for most of his career, but Kobe's team has put all kinds of great players around him his entire career.

:oldlol: @ anyone who doesn't admit the fact that Shaq was the most unstoppable player in the NBA during the Lakers 3 title run, and Shaq was the main reason for the championships. THE MAIN REASON.

:oldlol: @ anyone who thinks that Vince, T-Mac and Iverson couldn't have won championships with Shaq as their teammate.

:eek: :wtf:

[Allstar24]

In order:

1. Vince Carter
2. Allen Iverson
3. Kobe Bryant

Take it from someone who was a diehard Kobe fan up until this year... this guy is FINISHED. Done. Washed up. Whatever you want to call it.

I actually feel embarrassed to tell people that I was ever a fan of such a mediocre player. Kobe Bryant isn't even a top 5 player in today's league. He'd be RINGLESS had Shaq not carried him to three straight titles.

Go look at the head to heads of Kobe vs. Carter. Carter has been shutting him down in the last few meetings.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Kobe would be embarrassed to have fans like you. Only a real life loser would pick Carter over a proven winner like Kobe.

Vince couldn't even win even a single ring while playing with a HOFer. Kobe, on the other hand, won 3 championships while playing with a HOFer.

Vince, as the man, couldn't achieve anything and quit on his team like a *****. Kobe, as the man, took his team to the NBA finals.

As for being "washed up", Kobe is the leader of the #1 team in the west that is heavily favored to win the title and he is putting up much better stats. Vince Carter is not even in the playoff picture.

But I don't expect a loser like you to comprehend that. Like I said, you must be accustomed to losing in real life which is why your jealousy won't allow you to appreciate winners like Kobe. So sad :oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

:oldlol:

Kobe stalker/fanboy alert!

[Trash]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Kobe would be embarrassed to have fans like you. Only a real life loser would pick Carter over a proven winner like Kobe.

Vince couldn't even win even a single ring while playing with a HOFer. Kobe, on the other hand, won 3 championships while playing with a HOFer.

Vince, as the man, couldn't achieve anything and quit on his team like a *****. Kobe, as the man, took his team to the NBA finals.

As for being "washed up", Kobe is the leader of the #1 team in the west that is heavily favored to win the title and he is putting up much better stats. Vince Carter is not even in the playoff picture.

But I don't expect a loser like you to comprehend that. Like I said, you must be accustomed to losing in real life which is why your jealousy won't allow you to appreciate winners like Kobe. So sad :oldlol:
Gasol is the leader of the Lakers. Kobe is a good second option aka Robin.

Carter shuts down Kobe whenever they play each other.

Pierce dropped 38 on Kobe with a sprained knee.

I'm done supporting Kobe Bryant. This fool is done.

[ruslan]

:oldlol: @ anyone who can't see the fact that when he's been in the playoffs Vince has stepped up his level of play more than Iverson and Kobe have.

:oldlol: @ anyone who can't admit that Vince has played on bad teams his entire career, Iverson played on bad teams for most of his career, but Kobe's team has put all kinds of great players around him his entire career.

:oldlol: @ anyone who doesn't admit the fact that Shaq was the most unstoppable player in the NBA during the Lakers 3 title run, and Shaq was the main reason for the championships. THE MAIN REASON.

:oldlol: @ anyone who thinks that Vince, T-Mac and Iverson couldn't have won championships with Shaq as their teammate.

:eek: :wtf:

Did I say any of that? Iverson elevated his game in the playoffs more than Carter.
The stats and success isn't even comparable.

[Allstar24]

Kobe stalker/fanboy alert!
Just stating the facts. I'm not a "fanboy" by any means.


Gasol is the leader of the Lakers. Kobe is a good second option aka Robin.

Carter shuts down Kobe whenever they play each other.

Pierce dropped 38 on Kobe with a sprained knee.

I'm done supporting Kobe Bryant. This fool is done.
Your opinion is exactly what your username indicates= trash. Keep supporting losers like Vince Carter, he needs it as his season ends next week. Then cry yourself to sleep when you watch Kobe destroy the Mavs the following week, when the real season begins.

[Champion]

Kobe only had one great finals appearance and yet Shaq still performed better in that year. Otherwise, 4 out of 5, mediocre. This is the guy we are proclaiming to be the best player in the league and he is only effective 20% of the time in the NBA finals. Remember, the NBA finals is where you raise your level of play. If he raised his level of play in the NBA finals, there wouldn't be a 39 point blowout. One game? There wouldn't be a 20+ point lead blown. One game? There wouldn't be a three to one series lead only to be blown. One series?

[Terp in LA]

Take it from someone who was a diehard Kobe fan up until this year... this guy is FINISHED. Done. Washed up. Whatever you want to call it.

I wish we could have signatures on this site because this would be mine.

[Alpha Wolf]

http://intellectualconservative.com/images/kobe.jpg



Nuff Said...

[ruslan]

Just stating the facts. I'm not a "fanboy" by any means.


Your opinion is exactly what your username indicates= trash. Keep supporting losers like Vince Carter, he needs it as his season ends next week. Then cry yourself to sleep when you watch Kobe destroy the Mavs the following week, when the real season begins.

Allstar 24 with a Kobe pumping his chest avy? :no:

[lakerfreak]

Kobe 3 rings, 4 finals appearance.

Vince + AI = one final appearance, no rings.

Kobe had 5 finals appearances

[catzhernandez]

:roll:

People are actually saying Vince.

Holy cow, am I in the Twilight Zone?

[Alpha Wolf]

:oldlol: @ anyone who doesn't admit the fact that Shaq was the most unstoppable player in the NBA during the Lakers 3 title run, and Shaq was the main reason for the championships. THE MAIN REASON.

:oldlol: @ anyone who thinks that Vince, T-Mac and Iverson couldn't have won championships with Shaq as their teammate.

:eek: :wtf:

http://www.hondasociety.com/board/images/paulie/smilies/bsflag.gif



:no:




Give Kobe, Tim Duncan and they working on 6th or 7th Ring this year

[KenneBell]

Holy cow, am I in the Twilight Zone?
No this is ISH where Kobe's career has been deemed a failure and not worthy of even being compared to Harold Miner's.

[Godfather]

AI...

No one has ever carried such a crappy team into the Finals.

Not to mention he beat the Shaq led undefeated juggernaut that was the Lakers by himself.

And why is Vince Carter in this discussion?

[Duncan21formvp]

It goes:

Iverson
Carter
Kobe


Kobe's numbers go down in every category while all the other guys numbers go up.

[BallPhunk]

Kobe stalker/fanboy alert!

Are you freakin kidding me? I can take your cut/pasted, endlessly long threads defending Jordan like he's your sister OR attacking Bryant anytime some says anything remotely positive...

but it's beyond absurd and hypocritical for you to throw out the fanboy card. You're so deep in the GOAT's nuts you can taste his milk.


Ignore it if you want to, I really don't care.

:lol Your actions prove otherwise.

[LA_Showtime]

I wonder if this thread has an agenda behind it. I like how you don't even mention AI's stats...:oldlol:

[hotsizzle]

We've been through this before...check Kobe's numbers when he actually started playing significant minutes.

[the.powerhouse]

I don't really like Iverson's game but I think he always played his heart out during the playoffs... which hasn't always been the case with the other two.

[Allstar24]

Allstar 24 with a Kobe pumping his chest avy? :no:
So what, I'm not allowed to have a favorite player? There are plenty of good posters on this board with KG or Brandon Roy avatars...are they also "fanboys"? You should judge a poster by their words, not their avatars. FYI, bruceblitz is the biggest MJ fanboy on the face of this planet so if you side with him, know that you're wrong.

[bruceblitz]

So what, I'm not allowed to have a favorite player? There are plenty of good posters on this board with KG or Brandon Roy avatars...are they also "fanboys"? You should judge a poster by their words, not their avatars. FYI, bruceblitz is the biggest MJ fanboy on the face of this planet so if you side with him, know that you're wrong.
Awe, can't handle all of the evidence I present as to Jordan being the GOAT and Kobe being overrated, you fail.

[Flamboyant]

My answer to this question is: ROFLMAO<---*select*



BTW bruceblitz is a member now? Aww, snap!!!!!

[LA_Showtime]

Another stupid thread that obviously has an agenda. If you defend a player on your team, you're a troll. If you decide to chim in on the discussion, you're a troll. Gotta love ISH.

[branslowski]

Another stupid thread that obviously has an agenda. If you defend a player on your team, you're a troll. If you decide to chim in on the discussion, you're a troll. Gotta love ISH.

Exactly man, same thing on youtube...:oldlol:

[branslowski]

In order:

1. Vince Carter
2. Allen Iverson
3. Kobe Bryant

Take it from someone who was a diehard Kobe fan up until this year... this guy is FINISHED. Done. Washed up. Whatever you want to call it.

I actually feel embarrassed to tell people that I was ever a fan of such a mediocre player. Kobe Bryant isn't even a top 5 player in today's league. He'd be RINGLESS had Shaq not carried him to three straight titles.

Go look at the head to heads of Kobe vs. Carter. Carter has been shutting him down in the last few meetings.

Well for one, were comparing career stats with guys who haven't been in the Total career same situation...

We see Carter's and Iverson's career playoff stats as the MAN...So why not only use Kobe's Career playoff stats as the MAN also? Its only fair right?

Kobe-30ppg 6reb 5ast 48% shooting as the Man..:no:

Suck It..... (P.S, watch because its a fact that benefits Kobe, its wrong or a problem, or im a homer/troll/fanboy...ISH=Priceless)

[bruceblitz]

Well for one, were comparing career stats with guys who haven't been in the Total career same situation...

We see Carter's and Iverson's career playoff stats as the MAN...So why not only use Kobe's Career playoff stats as the MAN also? Its only fair right?

Kobe-30ppg 6reb 5ast 48% shooting as the Man..:no:

Suck It..... (P.S, watch because its a fact that benefits Kobe, its wrong or a problem, or im a homer/troll/fanboy...ISH=Priceless)

No, you don't erase his years that he was second fiddle to Shaq because he wasn't good enough to be "the man". That's selective statistical research, which is clearly bias.

[dynasty1978]

No, you don't erase his years that he was second fiddle to Shaq because he wasn't good enough to be "the man". That's selective statistical research, which is clearly bias.

which is your M.O. :hammertime:

[bruceblitz]

which is your M.O. :hammertime: :no: :wtf:

That's thorough. Not selective.

:violin: :cheers:

[Alpha Wolf]

Kobe has led his team to several winning records without Shaq.

All five of Jordan's Pippen-less teams had losing records.

Jordan never even made the all -defensive team until Pippen and Horace Grant arrived in Chicago and stated playing defense. Jordan received much of the credit for the Bulls' improved defense even though he was there when they also sucked.

Jordan also never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen. Kobe has made it to the NBA finals without Shaq. Jordan's career W/L playoff record without Scottie was 1 win and 10 losses.

[steeph28]

No, you don't erase his years that he was second fiddle to Shaq because he wasn't good enough to be "the man". That's selective statistical research, which is clearly bias.

I don't think anyone else in the league could have been "the man" on a team with Shaq during his prime years.

[bruceblitz]

duh, uh huh Kobe is my man.

Jordan is the GOAT. Period.

1981 Breaks record at McDonald's All-American game by scoring 30 points

1982= hits game winner for North Carolina, jumps into pass lane on defense forcing Sleepy Floyd to turn the ball over to James Worthy.

1983 = UNC choked in the NCAA tourney despite having the #2 seed, not Jordan

1984 = 1984 Named college Player of the Year. 1984 Wins Olympic gold medal as the leader of the U.S. basketball team. UNC choked again in the sweet 16 despite having the #1 seed, not Jordan

1985 = joined Chicago, who only won 27 games the year before, and led the franchise to 38 games and the playoff's. 1985 Named NBA Rookie of the Year.

1986 = Took the Celtics to a 3rd game rubber match, (yes kids only 3 game series at that point in NBA history), scored 63 points on the team that went on to win the championship that year, the Celtics were the #1 rated defense in the NBA, Jordan took them to their limit, despite Orlando Woolridge shooing 9-27 in the game, Jordan still kept the Bulls in it.

1987 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 48.2%(37.1ppg) of his shot attempts, Winner Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA Defensive Player of the Year, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named to the All-NBA First Team, back in the playoffs again. Jordan averaged over 40 points per game for over half of this season.

1988 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.5% of his shot attempts, Wins Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, Pippen was still developing, the help around Jordan was limited, lost to the eventual world champs in the playoffs, still got them to the playoffs

1989 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.8% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Jordan and his teammates had a decent showing against the Pistons, Jordan did everything he could, the cast around him hadn't developed enough to beat a stacked team like Detroit.

1990 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 52.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Once again ran into the Detroit buzzsaw, but still led the Bulls to the playoffs.

1991 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Chicago Bulls to their first NBA title. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy.

1992 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 51.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Wins Olympic gold medal with U.S. basketball team, leads bulls to back-to-back titles. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor.

1993 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads bulls to their 3rd straight championship, In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, an NBA finals record which has never been threatened.

1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

1996 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player. Leads Bulls to their 4th championship of Jordan's career as leader of the team. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. (Dennis Rodman, great defender, even though Gary Payton beat him out for defensive player of the year award and Dennis Rodman's prime was in the 80's, Rodman was a liability on offense, still contributed with defense and rebounding.)

1997 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 48.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Bulls to 5th championship as the leader of the team, In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

1998 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 46.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, led Bulls to 6th championship as leader of the team, In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

-Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards


2001 - 02 = MJ comes out of retirement to play for the Wizards, Jordan was 8 years removed from his prime.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career.
Doug Collins decided to move Jordan to the point guard spot against Seattle on March 11, 1989. He finished that game with 15 assists. Two days later, he had a game of 21/14/14 against the Pacers in just 30 minutes of playing time in a 32-point blowout win. He reached the triple double mark in just 21 minutes. Jordan continued to play at the PG spot until the end of the season. In these 24 games he averaged 29.3ppg, 8.9rpg, 10.6 apg, 2.4spg. Between March 24 and April 14, 1989, he recorded a triple double in ten of the eleven games, including seven consecutive ones. In the game he didn't record a triple double, he finished with 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds. The hands down greatest of all time, anyone disputing this is a misinformed individual.

Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.


Keep trying to post propaganda, kid.

[Godfather]

Kobe has led his team to several winning records without Shaq.

All five of Jordan's Pippen-less teams had losing records.

Jordan never even made the all -defensive team until Pippen and Horace Grant arrived in Chicago and stated playing defense. Jordan received much of the credit for the Bulls' improved defense even though he was there when they also sucked.

Jordan also never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen. Kobe has made it to the NBA finals without Shaq. Jordan's career W/L playoff record without Scottie was 1 win and 10 losses.

Kobe has never led a team to a winning record without Luke Walton (aside from the Shaq years when Shaq was the leader).

Kobe has never made it out of the first round w/ out Walton or Shaq

Kobe has never won an MVP w/ out Walton.

Kobe has never made an all star game without Walton or Shaq.

Kobe has never made an all NBA team without Walton or Shaq.

:hammertime:

See how intelligent this argument is :rolleyes:

[dynasty1978]

:no: :wtf:

That's thorough. Not selective.

:violin: :cheers:

Keep typing in large, bold font...somoene will eventually take you seriously.
:oldlol:

[Alpha Wolf]

Michael Jordan without Pippen= Bald-headed Dominique Wilkins

[steeph28]

Keep typing in large, bold font...somoene will eventually take you seriously.
:oldlol:

I would personally take him seriously if he began all his posts with that long Jordan summary ha.

[nicknamefrank]

Kobe has never led a team to a winning record without Luke Walton (aside from the Shaq years when Shaq was the leader).

Kobe has never made it out of the first round w/ out Walton or Shaq

Kobe has never won an MVP w/ out Walton.

Kobe has never made an all star game without Walton or Shaq.

Kobe has never made an all NBA team without Walton or Shaq.

:hammertime:

See how intelligent this argument is :rolleyes:

you're argument almost works except for the part that Pippen is one of the top 50 players of all time while Walton is a bench player.
I dont think it's that difficult to figure it out

[branslowski]

Michael Jordan without Pippen= Bald-headed Dominique Wilkins

Dude, you gotta stop this BS man...When guys like you and others do this, you make all Kobe fans look bad bro...then ppl who arent Kobe fans just put us all in the same category....:confusedshrug:

[bruceblitz]

Michael Jordan without Pippen= Bald-headed Dominique Wilkins
Kobe Bryant without Shaq = 6'6'' Allen Iverson

I missed the part where Dominique Wilkins won 10 scoring titles, set a playoff record with a career average of 33.45ppg, regular season NBA record career average of 30.12ppg, won 5 league MVP's, I guess Pippen was actually using his magic powers to blow the basketball into the rim when Jordan shot it.

:hammerhead:

[Alpha Wolf]

Kobe Bryant without Shaq = 6'6'' Allen Iverson

I missed the part where Dominique Wilkins won 10 scoring titles, set a playoff record with a career average of 33.45ppg, regular season NBA record career average of 30.12ppg, won 5 league MVP's, I guess Pippen was actually using his magic powers to blow the basketball into the rim when Jordan shot it.

:hammerhead:

Dominique Never had another HOFamer to play with in his prime!.....MJ never had a winning season without Pippen!..

Compare MJ and Dominique in their prime!.....before Pippen!..........there both Highlight reels.......except Wilkins could actually lead his team to a winning record!..and a playoff series win!.....Despite playing with NO Hofamers..and a guy named Jon Koncak!..lol



85' D.Wilkins 27.4pts 3assist 7reb 2stl 1blk team record 34 - 48....missed playoffs
85' MJ ...........28 pts 6assist 7reb 2stl 1blk team record 38-44 lost to Milwakee 3 - 1

86 D.Wilkins 30pts 3assist 8reb 2stl 1blk team record 50 - 32!
Winning season and made it to the second round of the playoffs.

86 MJ............22pts 3assist 4reb 2stl 1blk team record 30 - 52!
yet they still made the playoffs???(league expanded)..but they got swept by Boston..MJ scores 63pts IN A LOSS!!!!..ESPN pours it down are throat!

87' D.Wilkins 30pts 3assist 6reb 2stl 1blk team record 57 - 25!
make it to the second round and lose to the Piston's!....Still no HOFamer!

87' MJ ... ...37pts 4assist 5reb 1stl 1blk team record 40-42..3rd consecutive LOSING season! swept again by Boston!


Even in thier 40's.........

D.Wilkins 18ppg 2assist 5 reb 1stl 1blk
MJ.............20ppg 3assist 6reb 1stl 0.5blk...............to easy!

[bruceblitz]

First, I want you to notice how I, Alpha Goof leave off fg% because Wilkins was more of a volume scorer while Jordan was conistently efficient in his prime.

Dominique had players like Reggie Theus, Moses Malone(Hall of famer), Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis on his team throughout his career, to name a few..

Nobody in their right mind would compare MJ and Dominique in their primes unless you wanted to talk about total ppg(which isn't even close) because Wilkins was not a great distributor and playmaker for his teammates, plus he wasn't as efficient or consistently dominant for as long as Jordan as a scorer...

1984 Bulls = win 27 games

85' D.Wilkins 27.4pts 3assist 7reb 2stl 1blk team record 34 - 48....missed playoffs
85' MJ's rookie year ...........28 pts 6assist 7reb 2stl 1blk takes Bulls to the playoffs

86 D.Wilkins 30pts 3assist 8reb 2stl 1blk team record 50 - 32(all because Wilkins had a great team around him and one of the most underrated defenses in the NBA in the late 80's early 90's)!
Winning season and made it to the second round of the playoffs.

86 Bulls team record 30 - 52 (notice, the Bulls had won 38 games Jordan's rookie year, but without Jordan they started going back to the form of the previous season where they only won 27 games before Jordan was drafted, why did the bulls only win 30 games you ask? Jordan was out all year with an ankle injury and only played in 18 games that year!)


87' D.Wilkins 30pts 3assist 6reb 2stl 1blk 46% shooting
87' MJ ... ...37pts 4assist 5reb 1stl 1blk 48% shooting

Wilkins won 1 scoring title, Jordan won 10 scoring titles. Jordan won 5 league MVP's and 6 finals MVP's, Wilkins won 0. Wilkins 0 years over 50% shooting, Jordan had 6. Damn that is a dumb ass comparison, I know.

Yes, some comparison, sorry for being so dumb.

Actually it pains me to say that Iverson won 4 scoring titles and 1 league MVP but Kobe has only won 2 scoring titles but at least he's won as many MVP's as Iverson and half as many as Steve Nash.




Well...... ah hem..... :oldlol:

[Duncan21formvp]

Dominique Never had another HOFamer to play with in his prime!.....MJ never had a winning season without Pippen!..

Compare MJ and Dominique in their prime!.....before Pippen!..........there both Highlight reels.......except Wilkins could actually lead his team to a winning record!..and a playoff series win!.....Despite playing with NO Hofamers..and a guy named Jon Koncak!..lol



85' D.Wilkins 27.4pts 3assist 7reb 2stl 1blk team record 34 - 48....missed playoffs
85' MJ ...........28 pts 6assist 7reb 2stl 1blk team record 38-44 lost to Milwakee 3 - 1

86 D.Wilkins 30pts 3assist 8reb 2stl 1blk team record 50 - 32!
Winning season and made it to the second round of the playoffs.

86 MJ............22pts 3assist 4reb 2stl 1blk team record 30 - 52!
yet they still made the playoffs???(league expanded)..but they got swept by Boston..MJ scores 63pts IN A LOSS!!!!..ESPN pours it down are throat!

87' D.Wilkins 30pts 3assist 6reb 2stl 1blk team record 57 - 25!
make it to the second round and lose to the Piston's!....Still no HOFamer!

87' MJ ... ...37pts 4assist 5reb 1stl 1blk team record 40-42..3rd consecutive LOSING season! swept again by Boston!


Even in thier 40's.........

D.Wilkins 18ppg 2assist 5 reb 1stl 1blk
MJ.............20ppg 3assist 6reb 1stl 0.5blk...............to easy!


Kobe needs to be compared to Jason Richardson as neither have finals MVP's.

[LA_Showtime]

ISH is getting worse every month. :wtf:

[branslowski]

Kobe needs to be compared to Jason Richardson as neither have finals MVP's.

:confusedshrug:

Im afraid ISH is gonna get even worse...:ohwell:

[KenneBell]

ISH is getting worse every month. :wtf:
Just wait until the first Laker loss in the playoffs. :oldlol:

[Duncan21formvp]

ISH is getting worse every month. :wtf:

I agree

[Crash]

I love the way you hand pick his only decent contribution to the championships, and Shaq out-performed him by 8%fg, 10ppg, and 7 rebounds per game, rofl! People are hilarious. Nobody is saying Kobe was terrible, he did nothing spectacular ever in a full playoff run, EVER. That's the bottom line. Ignore it if you want to, I really don't care.

All im trying to argue is that taking either player off the team means they dont win the championship. Not saying Kobe was more valuable than Shaq at all, Shaq was the focal point of the team and the most dominant player of those 3 years..... but without Kobe they dont win the titles. Period.

[Showtime]

With the exception of last season, I don't see what Kobe did in the playoffs that VC or AI couldn't do in his situation.

[bruceblitz]

All im trying to argue is that taking either player off the team means they dont win the championship. Not saying Kobe was more valuable than Shaq at all, Shaq was the focal point of the team and the most dominant player of those 3 years..... but without Kobe they dont win the titles. Period.
What I am saying is that if you put Iverson, Vince, or T-Mac in Kobe's place the Lakers still win a championship. You could have replaced Kobe with prime Reggie Miller, prime Glen Rice, prime Dale Ellis, prime Scottie Pippen, prime LeBron James, prime Dwyane Wade, prime James Worthy, prime Elgin Baylor, etc etc the list goes on and on and on but the list of players who could have replaced Shaq is real real small. You could have replaced Shaq with Jordan, and the Lakers still win championships, you could have replaced Shaq with Kareem and the Lakers still win championships, uh, possibly Tim Duncan? Probably not. The list of players you could have replaced Shaq with is a very very short list. THAT'S THE POINT.

[S13M]

AI...

No one has ever carried such a crappy team into the Finals.


Dikembe Mutombo won the defensive player of the year award that season...
And was an all-star.

[JJ81]

Easily Kobe Bryant

[bruceblitz]

Easily Kobe Bryant


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Alpha Wolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCdhA41wgms



:cheers:


Classic

[bruceblitz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCdhA41wgms



:cheers:


Classic
:wtf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh4WpmAGMeA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79WSHpMU894

:oldlol:

[Alpha Wolf]

What I am saying is that if you put Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins, or Gary Payton in MJ's place the Bulls still win a championship. You could have replaced Jordan with prime Reggie Miller, prime Grant Hill, prime Tim Hardaway, prime Penny Hardaway, prime Karl Malone, prime Hakeem Olajuwon , prime Shawn Kemp, prime David Robinson, etc etc the list goes on and on and on but the list of players who could have replaced Pippen is real real small. You could have replaced Kobe with Jordan, and the Bulls still win championships, you could have replaced Kobe with Magic and the Lakers still win championships, uh, possibly Tim Duncan? Probably not. The list of players you could have replaced Kobe with is a very very short list. THAT'S THE POINT.



there i fixed it for ya ....

[Leviathon1121]

Wow Alpha, that post was full of all kinds of stupid.

[Younggrease]

What I am saying is that if you put Iverson, Vince, or T-Mac in Kobe's place the Lakers still win a championship. You could have replaced Kobe with prime Reggie Miller, prime Glen Rice, prime Dale Ellis, prime Scottie Pippen, prime LeBron James, prime Dwyane Wade, prime James Worthy, prime Elgin Baylor, etc etc the list goes on and on and on but the list of players who could have replaced Shaq is real real small. You could have replaced Shaq with Jordan, and the Lakers still win championships, you could have replaced Shaq with Kareem and the Lakers still win championships, uh, possibly Tim Duncan? Probably not. The list of players you could have replaced Shaq with is a very very short list. THAT'S THE POINT.

So since you percieve the burden Kobe carried wasnt high you just assume that people who were not put in that position are better or equal players...That doesnt quite make since imo logically or it treads upon a slippery slope.

[branslowski]

So since you percieve the burden Kobe carried wasnt high you just assume that people who were not put in that position are better or equal players...That doesnt quite make since imo logically or it treads upon a slippery slope.

Here's the thing Younggrease, everyone has their OWN OPINIONS, deal with it. Its just rather you beleive in the opinions or not in which you are very free to do. Just analyze the opinion while taking the opinion makers previous stance's on the player and go from there....I dont agree with Vince Carter, McGrady exc..being able to replace Kobe and still winning, because they are not on Kobe's level IMO. But its only my opinion and you can disagree with it if you want...Remember, Opinions are Opinions and Facts are Facts....

[Younggrease]

Here's the thing Younggrease, everyone has their OWN OPINIONS, deal with it. Its just rather you beleive in the opinions or not in which you are very free to do. Just analyze the opinion while taking the opinion makers previous stance's on the player and go from there....I dont agree with Vince Carter, McGrady exc..being able to replace Kobe and still winning, because they are not on Kobe's level IMO. But its only my opinion and you can disagree with it if you want...Remember, Opinions are Opinions and Facts are Facts....

The thing is that evn if Vince or T-Mac would be able to replace Kobe the arguement would still not lead to them being necessarily lead to them being Kobe's equal... There is a difference between a legit arguement and mere opinion and his arguement is faulty and conclusory.

[branslowski]

The thing is that evn if Vince or T-Mac would be able to replace Kobe the arguement would still not lead to them being necessarily lead to them being Kobe's equal... There is a difference between a legit arguement and mere opinion and his arguement is faulty and conclusory.

True...I look at it like this...Kobe's stats as THE MAN in playoffs are 30ppg 6reb 5ast on 48% shooting, better than those other guys as the Man in the playoffs...Meaning statistics would also drop from those players "If" they were on the Lakers in Kobe's position...meaning they would do worst..IMO. If These players arent as good as Kobe then what makes us think they would be able to help with bringing a Chip in with Shaq?...Anyway, we can "If" this and that to death..fact is Kobe's a 3-Time Champion..

[TmacsRockets]

True...I look at it like this...Kobe's stats as THE MAN in playoffs are 30ppg 6reb 5ast on 48% shooting, better than those other guys as the Man in the playoffs...Meaning statistics would also drop from those players "If" they were on the Lakers in Kobe's position...meaning they would do worst..IMO. If These players arent as good as Kobe then what makes us think they would be able to help with bringing a Chip in with Shaq?...Anyway, we can "If" this and that to death..fact is Kobe's a 3-Time Champion..

Kobe was playing Phoenix. Anyone can put up good numbers on them. In fact Dirk put up 50 on them in regulation something Kobe never did.

Vince has put up 50 in the playoffs and Iverson has done so 3 times and did so twice in the same series. Iverson also had put up 40+ 6 times in the same playoffs. Kobe for his career only has 6 games of 40+ in the playoffs.

[Automajic23]

The one who led his team to the Finals and has a ring as well. That being said, Kobe Bryant..I still think Kobe is being a little bit overrated at his clutchness. Most of the time he comes through, however people act like he's more clutch than Bird and Jordan. Far from it....

Disagree Shaq led those teams to the finals, kobe did play a significant role though

[Allstar24]

Disagree Shaq led those teams to the finals, kobe did play a significant role though
I wasn't aware that Shaq played for the Lakers last year.

[KobeRules24]

:confusedshrug: :wtf:

Vince Carter is the best playoff performer out of the 3, but the biggest difference is simple:

Iverson and Vince never had Shaq as a teammate or Phil Jackson as a coach, not to mention the supporting cast that's been put around Kobe his entire career.

2000 Finals vs Indiana Pacers
Shaq 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG
Kobe 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG

2001 Finals vs Philadelphia
Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG
Kobe 24ppg 7rpg 5apg 41%FG

2002 Finals vs New Jersey Nets
Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG
Kobe 26ppg 5rpg 5apg 51%FG

2004 Finals vs Detroit
Shaq 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG
Kobe 22ppg 2rpg 4apg 38%FG
(maybe Kobe should have given the ball to Shaq more? Why do you think Shaq left?)

2008 Finals vs Boston Celtics
Kobe 25ppg 4reb 5ast 40%fg
Shaq = old and gone, too bad for Kobe

Remember, Iverson led a bum ass Sixers team to an actual win in the Finals over Kobe AND Shaq, that speaks volumes. Imagine if Iverson or Vince had Shaq for a teammate even for half-a-decade, oh man they'd be wearing at least 3 rings. At least! Remember, Iverson was winning 4 scoring titles when Kobe was riding on superman's cape. I would still rank it like this though:
1)Vince
2a)Kobe
2b)Iverson

http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/shaq-and-kobe.jpg
That picture says it all. Out of 4 finals appearances with Shaq, Kobe didn't out-perform him once. Not once. Not even freaking close, AT BEST Kobe was Shaq's Pippen.



P.S. hopefully LeBron starts to raise his efficiency and level of play in the playoffs, so his playoff/finals resume doesn't look like this. Didn't get a good start against the Spurs. At least when Jordan ran into the world champion Celtics he put up a 63 point game for them to think about (playoff record).

Is this kobe's fault bruce? can we blame him because he had better help than these guys? if so then we can also argue that Kobe's playoffs numbers took a hit thanks to shaq while iverson and carter were the #1 options on their teams. I have plenty of proof that kobe is better than Carter and Iverson in the postseason when he is the leader of his team. Since shaq left kobe is averaging 30.1 ppg 6 rpg and 5 apg in the postseason while shooting 48% from the field!!!. I don't see all these kobe haters like Tmacrockets mentioning that why? because they are here for a propaganda. You're a smart basketball fan bruce and even though i know you don't like some kobe fans here you must admit kobe is better than carter and iverson, this is a stupid thread.

[TmacsRockets]

Is this kobe's fault bruce? can we blame him because he had better help than these guys? if so then we can also argue that Kobe's playoffs numbers took a hit thanks to shaq while iverson and carter were the #1 options on their teams. I have plenty of proof that kobe is better than Carter and Iverson in the postseason when he is the leader of his team. Since shaq left kobe is averaging 30.1 ppg 6 rpg and 5 apg in the postseason while shooting 48% from the field!!!. I don't see all these kobe haters like Tmacrockets mentioning that why? because they are here for a propaganda. You're a smart basketball fan bruce and even though i know you don't like some kobe fans here you must admit kobe is better than carter and iverson, this is a stupid thread.

Since Kobe has no finals MVP's there is no way you can say he is better than Iverson or Vince so we compare by overall stats and who scored 50+ in regulation in the playoffs.

Playoffs


Kobe Bryant
24.3 ppg, 44.5% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg


Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg

[branslowski]

Since Kobe has no finals MVP's there is no way you can say he is better than Iverson or Vince so we compare by overall stats and who scored 50+ in regulation in the playoffs.

Playoffs


Kobe Bryant
24.3 ppg, 44.5% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg


Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg

Well since Vince Carter was THE MAN of his team, then we put Kobe's stats AS THE MAN up...

30ppg 48%, 6reb, 5ast....Suck It..

[Alpha Wolf]

Since Kobe has no finals MVP's there is no way you can say he is better than Iverson or Vince so we compare by overall stats and who scored 50+ in regulation in the playoffs.

Playoffs


Kobe Bryant
24.3 ppg, 44.5% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg


Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg


Finals MVP = irrelevant


Kobe sacrificed MEANINGLESS personal awards so his TEAM could win....Kobe was the best player in the league when the Lakers were Champs....


only Jordan Jockers care about meaningless awards...what's next the "IBM" award?

[bruceblitz]

Finals MVP = irrelevant



:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

[ruslan]

Finals MVP = irrelevant


Kobe sacrificed MEANINGLESS personal awards so his TEAM could win....Kobe was the best player in the league when the Lakers were Champs....


only Jordan Jockers care about meaningless awards...what's next the "IBM" award?

Ur the biggest ****ing idiot on here

[ruslan]

I think alpha bum = kb24pah

[Alpha Wolf]

http://www.advantagefixtures.com/jpgs/productline/trophycases/wallcasesdtr70.jpg

Iverson's Trophy Case

[Heilige]

Jordan is the GOAT. Period.

1981 Breaks record at McDonald's All-American game by scoring 30 points

1982= hits game winner for North Carolina, jumps into pass lane on defense forcing Sleepy Floyd to turn the ball over to James Worthy.

1983 = UNC choked in the NCAA tourney despite having the #2 seed, not Jordan

1984 = 1984 Named college Player of the Year. 1984 Wins Olympic gold medal as the leader of the U.S. basketball team. UNC choked again in the sweet 16 despite having the #1 seed, not Jordan

1985 = joined Chicago, who only won 27 games the year before, and led the franchise to 38 games and the playoff's. 1985 Named NBA Rookie of the Year.

1986 = Took the Celtics to a 3rd game rubber match, (yes kids only 3 game series at that point in NBA history), scored 63 points on the team that went on to win the championship that year, the Celtics were the #1 rated defense in the NBA, Jordan took them to their limit, despite Orlando Woolridge shooing 9-27 in the game, Jordan still kept the Bulls in it.

1987 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 48.2%(37.1ppg) of his shot attempts, Winner Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA Defensive Player of the Year, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named to the All-NBA First Team, back in the playoffs again. Jordan averaged over 40 points per game for over half of this season.

1988 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.5% of his shot attempts, Wins Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, Pippen was still developing, the help around Jordan was limited, lost to the eventual world champs in the playoffs, still got them to the playoffs

1989 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.8% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Jordan and his teammates had a decent showing against the Pistons, Jordan did everything he could, the cast around him hadn't developed enough to beat a stacked team like Detroit.

1990 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 52.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Once again ran into the Detroit buzzsaw, but still led the Bulls to the playoffs.

1991 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Chicago Bulls to their first NBA title. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy.

1992 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 51.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Wins Olympic gold medal with U.S. basketball team, leads bulls to back-to-back titles. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor.

1993 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads bulls to their 3rd straight championship, In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, an NBA finals record which has never been threatened.

1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

1996 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player. Leads Bulls to their 4th championship of Jordan's career as leader of the team. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. (Dennis Rodman, great defender, even though Gary Payton beat him out for defensive player of the year award and Dennis Rodman's prime was in the 80's, Rodman was a liability on offense, still contributed with defense and rebounding.)

1997 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 48.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Bulls to 5th championship as the leader of the team, In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

1998 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 46.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, led Bulls to 6th championship as leader of the team, In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

-Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards


2001 - 02 = MJ comes out of retirement to play for the Wizards, Jordan was 8 years removed from his prime.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career.
Doug Collins decided to move Jordan to the point guard spot against Seattle on March 11, 1989. He finished that game with 15 assists. Two days later, he had a game of 21/14/14 against the Pacers in just 30 minutes of playing time in a 32-point blowout win. He reached the triple double mark in just 21 minutes. Jordan continued to play at the PG spot until the end of the season. In these 24 games he averaged 29.3ppg, 8.9rpg, 10.6 apg, 2.4spg. Between March 24 and April 14, 1989, he recorded a triple double in ten of the eleven games, including seven consecutive ones. In the game he didn't record a triple double, he finished with 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds. The hands down greatest of all time, anyone disputing this is a misinformed individual.

Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.


Keep trying to post propaganda, kid.



Nice post man! :cheers: Even though sometimes you come across as trollish, you can't deny this post!

[Champion]

[/B]

Well since Vince Carter was THE MAN of his team, then we put Kobe's stats AS THE MAN up...

30ppg 48%, 6reb, 5ast....Suck It..

Kobe did something that Vince Carter will never do........get blown out by 39 in the NBA finals. How many best players ever allow such a collapse to happen. Speaking about collapse, up 20 at half time, at home, game 4, of the NBA finals, lose the game....ask yourself---where was Kobe Bryant?

[Heilige]

Finals MVP = irrelevant


Kobe sacrificed MEANINGLESS personal awards so his TEAM could win....Kobe was the best player in the league when the Lakers were Champs....


only Jordan Jockers care about meaningless awards...what's next the "IBM" award?


Come on man; why do you have to bash Jordan so much?? :confusedshrug:

Also, I think Kobe himself cares about those rewards. You know if it was Kobe with 6 championships, 6 Finals MVPS, 5 reg. MVPs,etc,etc you wouldn't be saying that. :no:

[KobeRules24]

Kobe did something that Vince Carter will never do........get blown out by 39 in the NBA finals. How many best players ever allow such a collapse to happen. Speaking about collapse, up 20 at half time, at home, game 4, of the NBA finals, lose the game....ask yourself---where was Kobe Bryant?

You're right, Carter will never lead a team to the finals, will never win an NBA MVP, will never be a 6 time all NBA first team and first defensive team selection. :applause:

[Duncan21formvp]

Kobe did something that Vince Carter will never do........get blown out by 39 in the NBA finals. How many best players ever allow such a collapse to happen. Speaking about collapse, up 20 at half time, at home, game 4, of the NBA finals, lose the game....ask yourself---where was Kobe Bryant?
:applause:

[indiefan23]

:oldlol:

Vince Carter has won 3 series in his entire 12 year career, all of them against mediocre teams. In the other three playoff years his teams have been swept.

Since Kobe has had his own team (like Vince has for all his career), his stats have been 30/6/5 on 48%. This includes leading a heavy underdog team to 7 games against the #2 seed, and a trip to the finals where along the way, he beat the defending champions.

Unlike many other stars he hasn't been the #1 option all his career (averages go down) and was still developing his game for atleast the first 4 years of his career. Career averages really mean nothing. We could use them to show AI is a better scorer than Kobe when he is clearly not.

I dunno about Vince. Who's the best player he's had on his team? Jason Kidd after his prime. Chris Bosh/McGrady before their primes. Who's the best center or big man Carter has had? Injured Nenad Kristic in New Jersey? Injured and past his prime Antonio Davis in Toronto? And people are blaming Carter for not winning in the post season? He's the reason most of his teams make the play offs and then he gets blames when the only make it to the first or second round.

The best big VC has ever played with is actually a rookie, Brook Lopez this year. The next best is Chris Bosh (who was no where near Lopez's level as a rookie). I know one thing in ball is true. You can't win, even if you're Michael Jordan, if you don't have anyone who can consistently grab rebounds.

The truth is that Vince Carter, given his situation, actually over achieved. Over Vince's entire time in TO there were only 4 20 rebound games. 1 by Bosh. 1 by Olajuwon in a wheelchair and one career game a piece to Donyll Marshall and Jerome Williams. JYD WHAT!

Since he's been to New Jersey there has been one solitary fluke 20 board game by Richard Jefferson.

Check Kobe. In his time with the Lakers there have been 23 20 board games. Check Iverson: he's got even more support. 13 with the 76ers. 20 with the Nuggets. And even 2 with the Pistons this year.

If I had time I would check out things like blocks and things like that too but I'm sure what the results would be. Non-existent. Which changes your seeding giving you lots of early exists when you have to will your team in every year to take on the best teams in the league. Anyway, I'm not the biggest Carter fan but I just think its lame when people jump all over athletes because the teams they're on just aren't that great.

Hating Vince in Canada is a pretty national past time for fans of hoop and I just don't see it. Maybe he would not have been injured so much if he was not constantly carrying the team. Duh!

[Juges8932]

In order:

1. Vince Carter
2. Allen Iverson
3. Kobe Bryant

Take it from someone who was a diehard Kobe fan up until this year... this guy is FINISHED. Done. Washed up. Whatever you want to call it.

I actually feel embarrassed to tell people that I was ever a fan of such a mediocre player. Kobe Bryant isn't even a top 5 player in today's league. He'd be RINGLESS had Shaq not carried him to three straight titles.

Go look at the head to heads of Kobe vs. Carter. Carter has been shutting him down in the last few meetings.


1) I have seen your posts recently and they are mostly ignorant, so I'm hoping you're a troll.
2) You obviously aren't a diehard fan, and you only state such to lure people into believing your ****.
3) You were at best a bandwagon fan, because dropping your player because you have the delusion that he's washed up, which is a joke, is not being a fan.
4) Go look at head to heads of them in the playoffs. Oh wait, there aren't any, because Vince never made it far enough to see.
5) This is a thread about PLAYOFF performance, not who is better in the regular season in head-to-head match-ups.

With that said, my answer to the original question:
1)Kobe
2)Iverson
3)Vince

[juju151111]

Finals MVP = irrelevant



LMAO and Lakers fans wonder why nobody takes them seriously.

[Alpha Wolf]

LMAO and Lakers fans wonder why nobody takes them seriously.

:confusedshrug:

Seriously who cares who got finals MVP?


You think Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobli,Scottie Pippen,Dennis Rodman,Clyde Drexler,and David Robinson give a **** about Finals MVP? All these players I mentioned above are Champions that didn't win Finals MVP. Are you ready to totally diminish their roles on Championship teams like you are so eager to do to Kobe.

[indiefan23]

:confusedshrug:

Seriously who cares who got finals MVP?


You think Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobli,Scottie Pippen,Dennis Rodman,Clyde Drexler,and David Robinson give a **** about Finals MVP? All these players I mentioned above are Champions that didn't win Finals MVP. Are you ready to totally diminish their roles on Championship teams like you are so eager to do to Kobe.

No one is diminishing their roles. Their roles just aren't the most important to that team winning the championship.

In the past 20 years I can only think of a few undeserved finals MVP's.

Paul Pierce is borderline, I feel he earned it and it was only KG's first year so it would have been an insult to give it to him. But KG was the heart of that championship. He's classy for giving all the credit to Pierce. That class is why he's the heart of the team.

Tony Parker did not deserve the MVP. Tim Duncan did. Parker scored lots of points but it was Manu who closed out games. Duncan was the corner stone and without constant Duncan double teams Parker scores crap and they lose.

Chauncy Billups hit shots and did a great job, but Ben Wallace was the key stone of the Piston's D and their D is what they won every game with. When Wallace left so did their lock down D, final's appearances and legit shots at championships.

Michael Jordan won the finals MVP in 98. He played HUGE in games to win but Scotti Pippen out played him in many games. Pippen single handedly shut down Stockton To Malone and destroyed Utah's/Malone's confidence. The Jazz scored 54 points in one game which was the turning point of the series and that was because Pippen annihilated them. Utterly destroyed the team. He got hurt from Malone charges and Jordan finished off the series, but I honestly believe Jordan would have lost had Pippen not gotten them over the hump. It was Jordan's team. Jordan hit the final shot to win the championship so getting it was almost necessary to finish the story book, but I think Jordan would even admit that Pippen carried him a little in that series.

John Sally won MVP but it was Isiah Thomas' amazing play that brought the team together. Sally hit huge shots to win huge games but Thomas, when he used to be able to do everything right, was what drove the Pistons team.

I think that's about it. Anyone agree disagree? No one is diminishing the other player's roles its just that their teams were not built around those guys and they didn't contribute more to winning the championship then those guys. Simple.

[Alpha Wolf]

anyways .....

Anyone who was watching basketball at that time knows the Western Conference Finals was where the real battles were at, the NBA Finals were a mere formality.

:oldlol: @ acting like the Pacers, 76ers and Nets were better than the Blazers, Spurs and Kings.


Kobe stepped up against the tougher West teams while Shaq's big azz manhandled the weaker Eastern Conference teams without any centers

[bruceblitz]

Kobe Bryant struggled against these "weak" eastern conference teams that Alpha Troll is talking about, lol. Damn dude just put your foot in your mouth because you contradict yourself 100% of the time.



Anyways, anyone who thinks that Finals MVP's have no value on a player's legacy, is crazy.

I'm sure if Kobe had a finals MVP or a few Finals MVP you wouldn't say that.

AGENDA!


P.S. if you want me to post all the series Kobe has struggled in, in the Western Conference playoffs, I will. I don't think you want that do you?

[Scott Pippen]

anyways .....

Anyone who was watching basketball at that time knows the Western Conference Finals was where the real battles were at, the NBA Finals were a mere formality.

:oldlol: @ acting like the Pacers, 76ers and Nets were better than the Blazers, Spurs and Kings.


Kobe stepped up against the tougher West teams while Shaq's big azz manhandled the weaker Eastern Conference teams without any centers
Yes this is true, but Shaq also dominated the playoffs 1st 3 rounds. I have said before I don't like the Finals MVP award, but would prefer to make it a playoffs MVP. I understand the point that you are making, KB played a big role and not as easily replaceable as some think. I must agree. But he was more replaceable than Shaq, who was irreplaceable during those years. I will agree though sometimes people may exaggerate (trolls like TMacsRockets, etc). You should not have to use a backup account to troll like this.

Comon you used to be much better than this, when I look back and read the old threads.



Also some excellent posts here from indiefan23. :applause:

[Alpha Wolf]

Kobe Bryant struggled against these "weak" eastern conference teams that Alpha Troll is talking about, lol. Damn dude just put your foot in your mouth because you contradict yourself 100% of the time.



Anyways, anyone who thinks that Finals MVP's have no value on a player's legacy, is crazy.

I'm sure if Kobe had a finals MVP or a few Finals MVP you wouldn't say that.

AGENDA!


P.S. if you want me to post all the series Kobe has struggled in, in the Western Conference playoffs, I will. I don't think you want that do you?


So you think the Pacers 76ers & Nets were better then the Blazers Spurs & Kings ?

I could care less about Finals MVP its all about championship rings !

and Kobe didn't "struggle" against the weak eastern conference teams Shaq's big azz just manhandled them ...they didn't have any centers seriously Todd MacCulloch/Kenyon Martin and an over-the-hill Dikembe Mutombo and Rik Smits

[bruceblitz]

So you think the Pacers 76ers & Nets were better then the Blazers Spurs & Kings ?

I could care less about Finals MVP its all about championship rings !

and Kobe didn't "struggle" against the weak eastern conference teams Shaq's big azz just manhandled them ...they didn't have any centers seriously Todd McCullough/Kenyon Martin and an over-the-hill Dikembe Mutombo and Rik Smits

2000 vs Indiana Pacers
Kobe 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG

Kobe didn't "struggle" against the weak eastern conference teams

2001 vs Philadelphia
Kobe 24ppg 7rpg 5apg 41%FG

Kobe didn't "struggle" against the weak eastern conference teams

2004 vs Detroit
Kobe 22ppg 2rpg 4apg 38%FG

Kobe didn't "struggle" against the weak eastern conference teams

That's not even including Kobe's 40% fg% from last year's finals.




I could care less about Finals MVP its all about championship rings !

Robert Horry 7 rings(hou,LAL,SAS), Scottie Pippen 6 rings(chi), Steve Kerr 5 championship rings(chi,SAS) vs Kobe's 3 championship rings?
Every single player listed here, they all have one thing in common, they were NOT the leader of the teams they played for when winning championships.

It's about leading your team to championships if you want to be a top 10 player of all time. You look at how much weight a player pulled when winning championships. Kobe Bryant was not the leader of the Lakers during their championship runs, anyone who claims this obviously didn't watch the NBA during those seasons. You clown.

Only an idiot wouldn't be able to comprehend this.

[Alpha Wolf]

FG% ? hope you have more then meaningless stats to prove kobe didn't do anything on those championship teams


We seen what happened in the 95' Finals Shaq couldn't stop Hakeem to save his life

I'm not going to hold too much against Shaq, but I don't see why he gets all the credit for the Lakers titles for manhandling Rik Smits an over-the-hill Dikembe Mutombo and Todd MacCulloch /Kenyon Martin

[bruceblitz]

We seen what happened in the 90's Shaq couldn't stop Hakeem to save his life

I'm not going to hold too much against Shaq, but I don't see why he gets all the credit for the Lakers titles for manhandling Rik Smits an over-the-hill Dikembe Mutombo and Todd McCollough/Kenyon Martin

Oh, I don't know, maybe because anyone with their sanity knows that Shaq was the best and most unstoppable player in the game at the time?!?! :wtf:

[Alpha Wolf]

:confusedshrug:

Seriously who cares who got finals MVP?


You think Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobli,Scottie Pippen,Dennis Rodman,Clyde Drexler,and David Robinson give a **** about Finals MVP? All these players I mentioned above are Champions that didn't win Finals MVP. Are you ready to totally diminish their roles on Championship teams like you are so eager to do to Kobe.


:pimp:

[bruceblitz]

When messaging to Alpha Troll I can't help but feel that he's an 8 year old just learning the game of basketball.

fg% is meaningless? LMFAO!!! :roll: :oldlol: :roll:

Field goal percentage in basketball is the ratio of field goals made to field goals attempted. Its abbreviation is FG%. Three-point field goals are included in this percentage. Instead of using scales of 0 to 100%, the scale .000 to 1.000 is commonly used. A higher field goal percentage denotes higher efficiency. On the contrary a lower field goal percentage denotes lower efficiency. Another word for efficiency would be OVERALL EFFECTIVENESS AND CONSISTENCY AS A SCORER. In basketball, a FG% of .500 (50%) or above is considered a good percentage.

[Alpha Wolf]

Shaq has played in the NBA 17 + seasons, he only has *4 rings, he is not an automatic championship. In fact, he was not even in his physical prime during the 3 peat championship run. He was significantly overweight almost every season during that run.

[bruceblitz]

Leaders of championship teams = platinum

Sidekicks of championship teams = gold

Role players of championship teams = silver

Bench players of championship teams = bronze

Maybe that's an analogy that Alpha Kid can understand.

[bruceblitz]

Shaq has played in the NBA 17 + seasons, he only has *4 rings, he is not an automatic championship. In fact, he was not even in his physical prime during the 3 peat championship run. He was significantly overweight almost every season during that run.

Oh so now Shaq was Oliver Miller. The agenda continues. You try to overrate Kobe, underrate Jordan, overrate Pippen, underrate Shaq.

Clearly you are a fan of sidekicks.

[Alpha Wolf]

Anyways replace Shaq's lazy azz with Tim Duncan and him and Kobe would be working on getting there 6th or 7th title right now

[bruceblitz]

Anyways replace Shaq's lazy azz with Tim Duncan and the Lakers are they would be working on getting there 6th or 7th title right now

Nobody in their right mind will agree that Tim Duncan was as dominant as Shaq was.

So to you Shaq was lazy, fat, and beat up on tomato cans.

But wait, I thought you said this era wasn't watered down?

The contradictions continue.

[Alpha Wolf]

Nobody in their right mind will agree that Tim Duncan was as dominant as Shaq was.

So to you Shaq was lazy, fat, and beat up on tomato cans.

But wait, I thought you said this era wasn't watered down?

The contradictions continue.


So I guess Shaq 06' title is invalid because he didn't win Finals MVP and only averaged like 13 ppg

[bruceblitz]

So I guess Shaq 06' title is invalid because he didn't win Finals MVP and only averaged like 13 ppg

Anyone with half a brain would agree that D Wade was the leader of that team and the most important piece to that 2006 Miami Heat championship team. Just look at the way he brutalized the Pistons and Mavs. Yes, of course Shaq was merely a contributor and highly replacable that year. Alonzo Mourning, old and broken down, stepped in and took over for Shaq in the Finals, case in point. Shaq broke down fast, the decline from 2004-2006 was rapid. Of course he's shown flashes of brilliance this year, but that's all, flashes.

[Alpha Wolf]

Anyone with half a brain would agree that D Wade was the leader of that team and the most important piece to that 2006 Miami Heat championship team. Just look at the way he brutalized the Pistons and Mavs. Yes, of course Shaq was merely a contributor and highly replacable that year.



So Shaq couldn't have been replaced on the Lakers championship teams ?

on the real we seen what happened when Shaq played Hakeem Olajuwon in the Finals (swept) but he was so "dominate" when he played Rik Smits an over the hill Dikembe Mutombo and Todd MacCulloch do you really think Tim Duncan would struggle against playing the Pacers/Sixers/Nets

[bruceblitz]

So Shaq couldn't have been replaced on the Lakers championship teams ?

on the real we seen what happened when Shaq played Hakeem Olajuwon in the Finals (swept) but he was so "dominate" when he played Rik Smits an over the hill Dikembe Mutombo and Todd MacCulloch do you really think Tim Duncan would struggle against playing the Pacers/Sixers/Nets

"On the real" you keep talking about how the Jordan era was watered down, and this era isn't, yet you contradict yourself by showing how Shaq struggled to dominate in the Jordan era, yet he had a cake walk in this era. You contradict yourself every single time you post on here, I hope you know that but I doubt you even notice it.

Anyways, Shaq was not replacable on the Lakers championship teams, many agree. In fact, any real basketball fan should know this. He was easily the most dominant and unstoppable player in the NBA at that time in his career. Nobody in the watered down 00's could stop him. Hell, they still have problems stopping him 4-5 years past his prime. Shaq put on muscle when he went to LA so he could become even more unstoppable and he just ruined anyone or anything in his path during the Lakers title runs. That's why he is recognized as the most dominant center in NBA Finals history. Well, of course that is by knowledgable fans.

[gpfanz]

Hard to choose man.. don't like any of them anyway :banghead:

[indiefan23]

Kobe Bryant struggled against these "weak" eastern conference teams that Alpha Troll is talking about, lol. Damn dude just put your foot in your mouth because you contradict yourself 100% of the time.



Anyways, anyone who thinks that Finals MVP's have no value on a player's legacy, is crazy.

I'm sure if Kobe had a finals MVP or a few Finals MVP you wouldn't say that.

AGENDA!


P.S. if you want me to post all the series Kobe has struggled in, in the Western Conference playoffs, I will. I don't think you want that do you?

Well holy ****, I do. Go ahead!

[indiefan23]

So Shaq couldn't have been replaced on the Lakers championship teams ?

on the real we seen what happened when Shaq played Hakeem Olajuwon in the Finals (swept) but he was so "dominate" when he played Rik Smits an over the hill Dikembe Mutombo and Todd MacCulloch do you really think Tim Duncan would struggle against playing the Pacers/Sixers/Nets

I love Laker fans. They make threads like this so much fun. Cuz they always try to compare Kobe to Michael and then you get to stomp them into the ground like MJ did to Magic.

Dikembe Mutombo over the hill? How are you over the hill when you're leading the league with 14 boards and almost 3 blocks? If you have not noticed Mutumbo aged way better then almost any center in history. Last year he was the reason why Houston was able to have the second longest winning streak in history after Yao went down. When he was in Philly he was still in his prime and putting up some of his best numbers.

Kobe rode Shaq in that finals because he could not finish inside. Mainly because Mutumbo 3 blocks, Ratlif 3.7 blocks owned him inside. Not to mention Tyrone Hill who could ball and was tough as nails. Or Todd who would have had a brilliant career if he didn't get sick. So Shaq bailed him out and owned the paint back.

Not to mention that that series was a lot closer then it looked. Philly won the first game in LA in overtime and the other games came down to the last few minutes. When Kobe stopped shooting in the last two games 13 shots, they were blowouts.

Oh my, nice try though.

[Duncan21formvp]

Kobe is no where near on Iverson or Vince's level in the playoffs.

[Alpha Wolf]

[QUOTE=indiefan23]I love Laker fans. They make threads like this so much fun. Cuz they always try to compare Kobe to Michael and then you get to stomp them into the ground like MJ did to Magic.

Your talking about the 91' Finals ?

yup The Bulls beat the Lakers. Yes, the jordan jockers at NBC tried to hype it as "Magic vs. Michael," but that was a farce. Basketball is STILL a team game (even when jordan is on your team…the rest of the players have to play THAT much better like a team to make up for him). Furthermore, Magic did not guard jordan, because he was defending better offensive threats on the Bulls, and after jordan got spanked trying to guard Magic in game #1, he no longer guarded Magic.

Before the finals, James Worthy severely sprained his ankle against the Portland Trailblazers. After game 1, which the Lakers won, BTW, Worthy’s minutes were limited. This allowed the Bulls to put Scottie Pippen on Magic Johnson, since Foolish jordan got torched by him in the game 1 Lakers’ win. Had Worthy not been injured, and Phil Jackson tried this, he would have had to put jordan or John Paxson guard on 6'9" Worthy or 6'8" A.C. Green. None of these match-ups were favorable. Furthermore, during the series, Byron Scott suffered a shoulder injury and missed game #5. In the game #5 finale, Magic was teamed up with 2nd year Vlade Divac, rookies Elden Campbell and Tony Smith, Sam Perkins, and Terry Teagle. And even then, the Bulls depended on John Paxson's 4th quarter/last 2 minute clutch shooting to secure the win.

[bruceblitz]

[QUOTE=Alpha Wolf][QUOTE=indiefan23]I love Laker fans. They make threads like this so much fun. Cuz they always try to compare Kobe to Michael and then you get to stomp them into the ground like MJ did to Magic.

Your talking about the 91' Finals ?

yup The Bulls beat the Lakers. Yes, the jordan jockers at NBC tried to hype it as "Magic vs. Michael," but that was a farce. Basketball is STILL a team game (even when jordan is on your team

[Alpha Wolf]

Magic was torching Michael. He destroyed Jordan in Game one and drew two quick fouls in the first quarter of game two.

Jackson then decided that Jordan had had enough trying to guard Magic, and switched Scottie over to him. Scottie then held Magic to 4-13 from the field, and the entire series turned in favor of the Bulls.

Jordan, meanwhile, had been switched over to James Worthy, who was playing on crutches. LOL




Jordan never made it out of the first round of the playoffs (and had a 1-10 playoff record) without Scottie.

All 5 of Jordan's Pippen-less teams had losing records.

Meanwhile, Scottie played six full seasons without Jordan, and all six of those teams had winning records. Pippen played 16 full seasons in the NBA, and all 16 teams had winning records. Jordan played for FIVE losing teams.

Scottie also advanced further into the playoffs without Jordan
than Jordan did without Pippen. Scottie got out of the first round in his first year without Michael (1994, after the entire world predicted the complete collapse of the Bulls after Jordan's retirement) and also reached the conference finals without Jordan. And again, JORDAN NEVER MADE IT OUT OF THE FIRST ROUND WITHOUT PIPPEN.

Not only that, but Jordan never even made the all-defensive team without Scottie. The five years Jordan played without Pippen correspond exactly to the five years Jordan DIDN'T make the all-defensive team.

Meanwhile, Scottie made the all defensive team FOUR times without Michael... Scottie made FIRST TEAM ALL DEFENSIVE in both 1994 and 1995 (Jordan's first retirement) .

Then, Scottie goes to Houston, and STILL makes all the all-defensive team.

Then, Scottie goes to Portland, and AGAIN makes the All-Defensive team.

Scottie clearly was able to make the all defensive team no matter WHERE he played, and no matter who he played WITH. On the other hand, Jordan NEVER made the all-defensive team until after Scottie and Horace Grant (and later Dennis Rodman) arrived. Before they got to Chicago, Jordan's defense was about on the level of his hitting in baseball.

Clearly, Jordan's defense was HIGHLY overrated. Chicago did not begin to get recognition as a good defensive team until Pippen got there and they were able to advance past the first round of the playoffs.

[bruceblitz]

Magic was torching Michael. He destroyed Jordan in Game one and drew two quick fouls in the first quarter of game two.

Jackson then decided that Jordan had had enough trying to guard Magic, and switched Scottie over to him. Scottie then held Magic to 4-13 from the field, and the entire series turned in favor of the Bulls.

Jordan, meanwhile, had been switched over to James Worthy, who was playing on crutches. LOL




Jordan never made it out of the first round of the playoffs (and had a 1-10 playoff record) without Scottie.

All 5 of Jordan's Pippen-less teams had losing records.

Meanwhile, Scottie played six full seasons without Jordan, and all six of those teams had winning records. Pippen played 16 full seasons in the NBA, and all 16 teams had winning records. Jordan played for FIVE losing teams.

Scottie also advanced further into the playoffs without Jordan
than Jordan did without Pippen. Scottie got out of the first round in his first year without Michael (1994, after the entire world predicted the complete collapse of the Bulls after Jordan's retirement) and also reached the conference finals without Jordan. And again, JORDAN NEVER MADE IT OUT OF THE FIRST ROUND WITHOUT PIPPEN.

Not only that, but Jordan never even made the all-defensive team without Scottie. The five years Jordan played without Pippen correspond exactly to the five years Jordan DIDN'T make the all-defensive team.

Meanwhile, Scottie made the all defensive team FOUR times without Michael... Scottie made FIRST TEAM ALL DEFENSIVE in both 1994 and 1995 (Jordan's first retirement) .

Then, Scottie goes to Houston, and STILL makes all the all-defensive team.

Then, Scottie goes to Portland, and AGAIN makes the All-Defensive team.

Scottie clearly was able to make the all defensive team no matter WHERE he played, and no matter who he played WITH. On the other hand, Jordan NEVER made the all-defensive team until after Scottie and Horace Grant (and later Dennis Rodman) arrived. Before they got to Chicago, Jordan's defense was about on the level of his hitting in baseball.

Clearly, Jordan's defense was HIGHLY overrated. Chicago did not begin to get recognition as a good defensive team until Pippen got there and they were able to advance past the first round of the playoffs.

So in your opinion, Scottie Pippen was better than Michael Jordan

LMFAO!!!!!

[bruceblitz]

DUH UH HUH UH HUH

Jordan holds a huge number of NBA Records and has won numerous awards including but not limited to the following:

Rookie of the Year:1985
All NBA First Defensive Team Selections: 9 (NBA Record)
All NBA First Team Selections: 10
Defensive Player of the Year: 1998
NBA Scoring Titles: 10 (7 Consecutively)
NBA Finals MVP: 6
NBA Regular Season MVP: 5
Number of NBA Championships Won: 6
Career Points Per Game Average: 30.1 (1st in NBA History)

Of course Jordan isn

[bruceblitz]

For someone whose name comes up in such discussions like "Who is the best player ever?" and "Who will be the next Michael Jordan?" Kobe Bryant still has a long way to go.

Sure, I'll admit Bryant has been a prolific scorer throughout his career, but he has shown me nothing that would have me compare him to Michael Jordan.

Let's take a look back to the year 2000, the year L.A. won its first championship with Bryant. During the regular season, Bryant averaged almost 29 points and five assists per game. How did these stats translate over to the NBA Finals? They lowered to 15 points and four assists per game.

Shaquille O'Neal, on the other hand, raised his scoring average, from 28 in the regular season to 38 in the finals.

In 2001, the Lakers once again won the NBA Finals. Any thanks to Kobe? Sure, but his scoring average dropped in the clutch once again, forcing O'Neal to step up and raise his scoring, from 27 per game in the regular season to 33 in the finals.

The Lakers achieved a "three-peat" in 2002, winning their third straight NBA championship. Let's look how Bryant deemed "The Next MJ" stepped up his game to lead his team to the title.

Oh wait, we can't. For the third straight time, Kobe's scoring and assists declined in the series. Bryant once again hopped on O'Neal's humongous shoulders and rode him through the finals. And O'Neal, not Bryant, won the NBA Finals MVP award.

Kobe Bryant has never shown any signs of being a team leader. Nor a team winner. When Jordan led his team to six NBA titles; he wasn't the second option. He took over the game and demanded the ball in clutch situations. Bryant simply passed the ball underneath to O'Neal and watched him manhandle anyone who got in his way.

Without O'Neal, Bryant would have no rings. Plenty of scoring titles, but no rings. He wouldn't be considered one of the best players ever. And people would laugh in your face if you said he might be the next Michael Jordan.

If Bryant couldn't even be the best player on his team during his championship runs, then how can anyone say he is the best ever?

[Alpha Wolf]

For someone whose name comes up in such discussions like "Who is the best player ever?" and "Who will be the next Michael Jordan?" Kobe Bryant still has a long way to go.

Sure, I'll admit Bryant has been a prolific scorer throughout his career, but he has shown me nothing that would have me compare him to Michael Jordan.

Let's take a look back to the year 2000, the year L.A. won its first championship with Bryant. During the regular season, Bryant averaged almost 29 points and five assists per game. How did these stats translate over to the NBA Finals? They lowered to 15 points and four assists per game.

Shaquille O'Neal, on the other hand, raised his scoring average, from 28 in the regular season to 38 in the finals.

In 2001, the Lakers once again won the NBA Finals. Any thanks to Kobe? Sure, but his scoring average dropped in the clutch once again, forcing O'Neal to step up and raise his scoring, from 27 per game in the regular season to 33 in the finals.

The Lakers achieved a "three-peat" in 2002, winning their third straight NBA championship. Let's look how Bryant deemed "The Next MJ" stepped up his game to lead his team to the title.

Oh wait, we can't. For the third straight time, Kobe's scoring and assists declined in the series. Bryant once again hopped on O'Neal's humongous shoulders and rode him through the finals. And O'Neal, not Bryant, won the NBA Finals MVP award.

Kobe Bryant has never shown any signs of being a team leader. Nor a team winner. When Jordan led his team to six NBA titles; he wasn't the second option. He took over the game and demanded the ball in clutch situations. Bryant simply passed the ball underneath to O'Neal and watched him manhandle anyone who got in his way.

Without O'Neal, Bryant would have no rings. Plenty of scoring titles, but no rings. He wouldn't be considered one of the best players ever. And people would laugh in your face if you said he might be the next Michael Jordan.

If Bryant couldn't even be the best player on his team during his championship runs, then how can anyone say he is the best ever?




You obviously don't understand the game of basketball. That's what people who look to the boxscore to measure a player's value tend to be. In this entire article, you have given nothing except a few scoring comparisons here, assists comparisons there and from that you conclude Kobe is "over rated". You know what that's called? It's called confirmation bias, when you're selectively (and ignorantly) finding "proof" to conveniently support your position. Why don't we look at the whole picture, where Kobe was often the one to bail out the Lakers in crunch time when opposing players were employing Hack-a-Shaq, or when Shaq would be fouled out or pulled out by the coach because of Shaq's poor free throw shooting?

Furthermore, if Kobe truly did "hop on Shaq's humongous shoulders" to a title as you claim, then Shaq would have led the Lakers to a title at any point during the 96-98 seasons when Kobe was barely getting any playing time. If Shaq were truly the reason for the Lakers winning titles, he would have been able to win a title without Kobe at his side. The truth is, Shaq and the Lakers didn't win until Phil Jackson arrived and Kobe was given more playing time and responsibility on the team.

Which leads to the next point. Are you really comparing Jordan as the team's number one option to Kobe as the team's number 1B option? That's the fallacy of false analogy. First, if Jordan and Shaq were on the same team, we would see similar drops in statistics in either player because one would necessarily be the lesser option. Second, you just can't compare Kobe's time with Shaq to Jordan's time winning rings because the circumstances are more disparate than alike. What would be more correct is comparing Kobe's last several seasons to Jordan's first 6 seasons in the NBA. Both players here didn't have much help from team mates, and hence couldn't win much. If Jordan were truly responsible for all those titles, then he would have won at least one in the first 6 seasons of his career. Yes, Jordan did not win jack for 6 seasons until Pippen came to being, just like Kobe won't be able to win jack until he has a legit second threat like Jordan had in Pippen. As the team's number one option now and with decent team mates (still not as great as what Jordan had), the next several seasons is what could correlate more closely with Jordan's double 3-peat years.

Yes, you're right. Without Shaq, Kobe would probably not have any rings. But the same goes for Shaq. Without Kobe, Shaq would have zilch titles. Not to mention, without Wade, Shaq wouldn't have his 4th ring. And interestingly, neither Shaq nor Kobe would have multiple titles if it weren't for Horry, Fisher, or Fox. Same goes for Jordan. Without Pippen, Paxson, Kerr, and Kukoc, Jordan would have no titles. You see? It's a team game. You're obviously placing a double standard on Kobe, expecting him to win titles single-handedly, while giving credit to all other plays who had significant amount of help winning them. No one won a title by themselves. Not Jordan, not Bird, not Magic, not Shaq, not Duncan, not anyone. So stop spreading lies and your blind prejudices with specious reasoning.



:hammertime:

[LA_Showtime]

For someone whose name comes up in such discussions like "Who is the best player ever?" and "Who will be the next Michael Jordan?" Kobe Bryant still has a long way to go.

Sure, I'll admit Bryant has been a prolific scorer throughout his career, but he has shown me nothing that would have me compare him to Michael Jordan.

Let's take a look back to the year 2000, the year L.A. won its first championship with Bryant. During the regular season, Bryant averaged almost 29 points and five assists per game. How did these stats translate over to the NBA Finals? They lowered to 15 points and four assists per game.

Shaquille O'Neal, on the other hand, raised his scoring average, from 28 in the regular season to 38 in the finals.

In 2001, the Lakers once again won the NBA Finals. Any thanks to Kobe? Sure, but his scoring average dropped in the clutch once again, forcing O'Neal to step up and raise his scoring, from 27 per game in the regular season to 33 in the finals.

The Lakers achieved a "three-peat" in 2002, winning their third straight NBA championship. Let's look how Bryant deemed "The Next MJ" stepped up his game to lead his team to the title.

Oh wait, we can't. For the third straight time, Kobe's scoring and assists declined in the series. Bryant once again hopped on O'Neal's humongous shoulders and rode him through the finals. And O'Neal, not Bryant, won the NBA Finals MVP award.

Kobe Bryant has never shown any signs of being a team leader. Nor a team winner. When Jordan led his team to six NBA titles; he wasn't the second option. He took over the game and demanded the ball in clutch situations. Bryant simply passed the ball underneath to O'Neal and watched him manhandle anyone who got in his way.

Without O'Neal, Bryant would have no rings. Plenty of scoring titles, but no rings. He wouldn't be considered one of the best players ever. And people would laugh in your face if you said he might be the next Michael Jordan.

f Bryant couldn't even be the best player on his team during his championship runs, then how can anyone say he is the best ever?

Can you honestly name 5 people who wouldn't have deferred to a prime Shaquille?

[bruceblitz]

Can you honestly name 5 people who wouldn't have deferred to a prime Shaquille?
Michael Jordan
Wilt
Hakeem
Bird
Oscar

[bruceblitz]

I, alpha troll obviously don't understand the game of basketball.


I am going to still this post from a knowledgeable poster on two other sites. This is how he explains why MJ is the GOAT.

Well let's look at some of the candidates first.

1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)

Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:


League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.

Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2006/12/top-50-basketball-players-of-all-time.html

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.

MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

Also consider

Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.


Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?




http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

Why is Kobe Bryant ever so absent from lists like these?

Take it from kgisbigticket who posted a lot of the facts that I already posted, 100 times, which you fail to comprehend or even read. Alpha Wolf, you aren't a basketball fan, you are a Kobe Bryant fan who likes to diminish Michael Jordan's greatness, that's not a basketball fan, you are an idiot.

[Alpha Wolf]

Why did Michael Jordan have so many LOSING seasons compared to other NBA Greats?

Magic Johnson = 0 Losing seasons and 9 NBA Finals appearances.

Larry Bird = 0 Losing seasons and 5 NBA Finals

Bill Russell = 0 Losing seasons and 11 NBA championships

Michael Jordan = 5 LOSING Seasons...6 NBA Finals in 15 years!!!...for the supposedly "Best ever"..HE SURE DID LOSE ALOT!

MJ = Overrated in the watered down 90's....did'nt really make anyone better...in fact he couldn't win until he was surrounded by HOF talent!

Good thing Scottie Pippen came to Jordan's rescue.

[bruceblitz]

LeBron James - "Kobe Bryant passed me the torch"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_La3xYfHEc

Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan & LeBron James - the evolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-uWw2auvyU

Kobe Bryant & LeBron James - ERASE THE HATE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYnZ638Y_J8

LeBron James vs Michael Jordan dunk comparison including free throw line dunks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyFMCnHxcxE

Michael Jordan vs physical intense defense MJ vs Real defenses the Jordan era! MUST SEE!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

Michael Jordan era the athletes and athletics MUST SEE MUST FAVORITE FOR ALL NBA FANS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uc465y2tl4

♪♫ Dwyane Wade - the rose that grew from concrete ♪♫
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1SKFntjMYE

LeBron James - I am the illest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S37PAWX14Jw

LeBron James 2008 2009 highlights GIVE THIS MAN THE MVP AWARD (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UguTCRRfekM

LeBron James 2008 2009 highlights GIVE THIS MAN THE MVP AWARD (part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0kYNarrpGY

LeBron James IS 2008-2009 Defensive player of the year heres proof why MVP!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRYos3qP5u8

LeBron James 2008 2009 highlights GIVE THIS MAN THE MVP AWARD (part 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm5c3N2k9R4

LeBron James 2008 2009 highlights GIVE THIS MAN THE MVP AWARD (part 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhPwGQWGNww

LeBron James - the fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNmMZXwlUdc

Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali - Tribute to the Greatests
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXeYSrhHsDU

Michael Jordan - the final shot for Da Bulls in high quality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2QLC-UrVV0

Michael Jordan - the essence of the greatest basketball player ever part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCRre3nX88g

Kobe Bryant - slow motion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul8G2xMopC0

WWE Rock says "LeBron James is the people's champ - the great one"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy7SYuuKzkw

The best Michael Jordan music video tribute mix in the world!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7XAk_dzV2Y

New!! Michael Jordan let your game speak commercial 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcsbqxd4tx4

Michael Jordan owning and posterizing a prime Shaq O'Neal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUkuQQxh-pc

Michael Jordan vs Real Defenses
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

This is why LeBron is the best NBA player ever since Jordan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCmnczu9YhA

Michael Jordan era vs LeBron era defenses - the rim attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA

Michael Jordan vs LeBron James vs Kobe Bryant - the jumpshot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-WtCpiuFYU

LeBron James shooting jumpers and free throws compilation 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QuDdUvGfg

LeBron James shooting jumpers and free throws compilation 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUjhyf5msro

LeBron James attacking the rim compilation part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_pKp5W4Kg8

LeBron James attacking the rim compilation part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASuk_VSeXLA

LeBron James attacking the rim compilation part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq4xLWscVb4

LeBron James - "I am LeGend, I am LeBest in LeGame!!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoGQ9ak5F5g

LeBron James compilation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VKRdaipOOU

LeBron James can DUNK on ANYONE in YOUR FAMILY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBCexKBLfNs

LeBron James is MVP dammit! Listen up voters!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LETRgBc55M

Prediction that Kobe, LeBron and Wade would be the top MVP canidates 10 months ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AczHUIT6TTE

The top 15 NBA players of all time? Mark Jackson?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N65tPaLYVrE

The best NBA Dunk Mix - featuring Michael Jordan & others
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d05cnA571EY

Michael Jordan vs Kobe Bryant - 1 on 1 exclusive from ASG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvJywRV9P0w

Bryant vs James - Kobe Bryant vs LeBron James 2008 in L.A.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCmpYWMTJMg

♪♫ 100 NBA dunks of all time in 40 seconds ♪♫
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuEb5dq3SuU

Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kareem, Jordan mix:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsUzmQvVuU4

LeBron James game winner and highlights vs Portland 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQjvifymdzw

The greatest NBA players right now (made it in 2007)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqAhzPYzWYw

T-Mac mix:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIcNu79tvUE

Vince Carter mix:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_CRq7H3F1E

now to the channels:
Michael Jordan highlights: http://youtube.com/theairjordanblitz
LeBron James highlights: http://youtube.com/thelebronjamesblitz
Educational NBA videos, few mixes, Boxing highlights: http://youtube.com/mustseebbtv
My video blogs: http://youtube.com/bruceblitzconfession
Kobe Bryant highlights: http://youtube.com/thekobebryantblitz
Most of my mixes: http://youtube.com/blitzmixes
Boxing channel I just started: http://youtube.com/theboxingblitz

Damn, I think that about covers it, :D :cheers:
http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/3LETRgBc55M/hqdefault.jpg

Those are my contributions to the basketball fan's community. Alpha Wolf only contributes blind love for Kobe and blatant attempts to diminish Jordan's greatness in an attempt to prop up Kobe to undeserved status. AKA overrating Kobe, which some of you seem to do.

[bruceblitz]

I want Kobe Bryant to stick his d*** in my a** h***.

Clearly the Bulls NEVER missed the playoffs with Michael Jordan on the team you dumb ass.

[bruceblitz]

Kobe Bryant's averages in the regular season and playoffs are comparable to Vince Carters


nuff said. He's ****ing overrated.

[Alpha Wolf]

Hey Bruce B...hows the Fake Wrestling going........maybe you'll get a gig now that "Midget wrestling" is starting to get popular again.....aren't you like 5'4"?....

[bruceblitz]

Kobe Bryant's averages in the regular season and playoffs are comparable to Vince Carters


nuff said. He's ****ing overrated.


I dream of the day I get to mud wrestle with Kobe Bryant

Sorry that you are jealous of someone who's actually done something with their lives alpha wolf, all we know about you is that you are "alpha wolf" the ISH/Yahoo answers user who likes to overrate Kobe and diminish Michael Jordan. Some legacy you are building.

[Alpha Wolf]

Kobe Bryant's averages in the regular season and playoffs are comparable to Vince Carters


nuff said. He's ****ing overrated.


Jordan couldn't even get out the first round of the playoffs w/o Pippen

his playoff record before Pippen joined the Bulls was 1-9 THAT'S ONE WIN AND NINE LOSSES

that's not all though Jordan never even lead that Bulls to winning record without Pippen !!


Jordan was an overhyped, pampered marketing tool used by David $tern and corporate America.


put down your Space Jam doll bruce realize the truth



Nuff Said

[Alpha Wolf]

Deconstructing Jordan:http://www.providencephoenix.com/archive/features/99/01/21/MJ.html

[bruceblitz]

Jordan couldn't even get out the first round of the playoffs

his playoff record before Pippen joined the Bulls was 1-9 THAT'S ONE WIN AND NINE LOSSES

that's not all though Jordan never even lead that Bulls to winning record without Pippen !!


Jordan was an overhyped, pampered marketing tool used by David $tern and corporate America.


put down your Space Jam doll bruce realize the truth



Nuff Said

lmfao @ this guy, he's posted the same 3 arguments over and over and over. You are a straight up loser. You haven't has ***** since ***** had you. Put down the Kobe Bryant poster, get your **** out of your hand, and stop fantasizing about Kobe.

Kobe hasn't made it out of the first round of the playoffs without a good scoring big on his team. Jordan won 6 championships without even having 1 true good scoring big on his team you idiot!

[Richie2k6]

Still can't get over the fact that Carter hit 9 straight threes in a playoff game once.

[Alpha Wolf]

All bruce blitz does is act like MJ is Jesus Christ or something and diminish Kobe and ignore all his skills and achievements

[bruceblitz]

Deconstructing Jordan:http://www.providencephoenix.com/archive/features/99/01/21/MJ.html
Jordan could have gone out of his way to showboat, and he would have had even better highlights. There was nothing that MJ wasn't capable of doing with a basketball and there isn't anyone who did anything on a basketball court better when compared to MJ. Michael Jordan had no limitations, no defense could stop him, any era, any style. Kobe has gone out of his way to be 'like Mike'. If Jordan forced his scoring every game, he would have averaged 40 points per game for his career. If Jordan played today he would easily average 45ppg on 55% fg%. Jerry West said himself that Jordan had no weaknesses. Jerry West also said that Kobe is not Jordan and will never be Jordan, he has moves like Jordan BUT THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLAYERS.
When I say Kobe's overrated, some confuse the word overrated, KOBE HAS BEEN RATED AS A JORDAN TYPE PLAYER, without Jordan type results, so, he is overrated at this point ---- not because he 'sucks'. I think Kobe is one of the best 2's of all time and I watch the guy play quite often. People overrate Kobe because they like his style. It's what I call and1kobeitis. A new term I have created. They like the flash to Kobe's game more than anyone. He is the flashiest player in the game today, he takes extra time to showboat regularly, and the fans love it. He is however not nearly the most productive player in the NBA. He tricked some of you into thinking he was a great scorer by constantly shooting. Shooting a lot when you have a mediocre shot%, while grabbing scoring titles, it doesn't impress me one bit. Jordan - 10 scoring titles (6 over 50% shooting)....Wilt - 7 scoring titles...Iverson - 4 scoring titles (by the way Iverson also has an MVP)...George Gervin - 4 scoring titles...T-Mac - 2 scoring titles...Kobe - 2 scoring titles If Kobe was so dominant, he would actually have at least one year over 47% shooting. He would actually have more than one game in the playoffs over 50 points. He would not have shot 38% in the 2004 finals and shot the Lakers out of the series. He would not have shot 36% in the 2000 finals for only 14ppg vs Reggie's defense. Speaking of Miller, in a more physical era, Miller shot 48% for his career. Jordan shot 51.5% as a bull. Glen Rice for instance, shot 47% from 3's for an entire season! (that's not fg that's 3pt%) in the toughest era in NBA history Glen Rice in that same year averaged 27ppg and played in 79 games. Kobe has never even averaged 1 point for a full season at 47% and Glen Rice averaged 27ppg while making 47% of his 5.6 3's attempted per game. That era had much more talent. Rebuke the notion that Kobe is a 'legendary' scorer. Get at me when his career fg% is over 48%. Let me know when his career fg% in the playoffs, against playoff level defenses, is even over 45%.... thanks... Kobe is gonna go down as being better than Clyde Drexler, but not as good as Scottie Pippen. Look at the roles that Kobe and Scottie filled as sidekicks. Scottie played a much better role and didn't get in the way of the team's needs. He didn't start feuding with Jordan either. Scottie also was a better defender, better athlete (see his free throw line dunk, and see Scottie Pippen's NBA top 10 career dunks), Scottie was a better passer, he ran the point regularly, and he was a more proven winner.... What can Kobe do to change my mind? Average 30ppg on 50% shooting, put together 4 straight 50 point games in the playoffs, lead the lakers to a championship, the key word being LEAD, average 30+ppg 6+ppg 6+ppg (key word being +) at least 3 times, win 5 more scoring titles, or win defensive player of the year. If he does any of that he passes Pippen, until that point, he hasn't passed Pip on my list. Pippen was the man... Also with the new 3 second rule, bigs cannot defend the rim like they did in MJ's era. Now they want you to stand outside of a circle to get credit for a charge? They are trying to eliminate the big man so you can see more dunks and highlights.
Phil Jackson also talked about how Kobe was out to prove he was a scorer during the 05-06 and 06-07 seasons, Before the 07-08 season Phil said publicly: 'I want (Kobe)him to be more of a playmaker, he had his chance to prove that he was a scorer.' If you read into what Phil means, when he uses the word playmaker he means pass the ball, he was asking Kobe to pass the ball more before the 07-08 season. So that is further proof that when Phil said he asks Kobe to be more of a playmaker than Jordan, he just means that he is put in the position to ask him to pass the ball more than he had to ask Jordan. once again, 'playmaker'... When Jordan was the team's main playmaker this is what it looked like: Doug Collins decided to move Jordan to the point guard spot against Seattle on March 11, 1989. He finished that game with 15 assists. Two days later, he had a game of 21/14/14 against the Pacers in just 30 minutes of playing time in a 32-point blowout win. He reached the triple double mark in just 21 minutes. Jordan continued to play at the PG spot until the end of the season. In these 24 games he averaged 29.3ppg, 8.9rpg, 10.6 apg, 2.4spg. Between March 24 and April 14, 1989, he recorded a triple double in ten of the eleven games, including seven consecutive ones. In the game he didn't record a triple double, he finished with 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds. The hands down greatest of all time, anyone disputing this is a misinformed individual. Michael Jordan would average 45ppg+ under these current rules, in this no contact league, with less free throw line jumping freaks as compared to Jordan's era. In Jordan's era you had more track athletes in the league, now you have guys who try to win bodybuilding contests rather than become a track type athlete like the players of 80's/90's. Now players are shorter and heavier. 1987 was the NBA's tallest year by average height.
Pippen's 55 win bulls overachieved. Pippen was to be MJ's replacement when MJ got 'too old'. So when MJ went to play baseball, all of us Bulls fans assumed that Pip would play the role of Jordan. Pip did manage to lead the team to 55 wins while Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong had solid years, as well as Toni Kukoc stepped up big time in key situations, as well as other players who stepped up big. Any way you look at it, the 55 wins is deceiving. Just look at the next year, Jordan was still playing baseball and the team started falling apart from the seams. Pippen got arrested, Pippen got mad about Toni Kukoc getting a last second shot attempt instead of him. The team was falling apart. The Bulls were struggling to stay over .500% win percentage, Jordan came back and they won 76% of the rest of their regular season games. Jordan came back to carry them over the finish line. In the very next season the Bulls won 72 games with Jordan, despite the fact that they were struggling to win even half their games the year before. Not to mention, in 1997-98 Pippen missed 36 regular season games and he missed Key minutes in the playoffs that year, still, Jordan carried the team over the finish line..... Lastly, anyone who says they didn't run zones in the MJ era is a liar. Always keep in mind that there were rules in place, but many teams found ways to bend rules and run zones. The Celtics were the best at this, they ran zones primarily and rarely got called for illegal defense because of their execution of the zone, as well as reluctant referees. Illegal defense was put in place to snuff out lazy defenders and force them to always attempt to guard a man or trap/double a man. There was less space given by defenders in that era, which makes it harder to get off a clean shot without using team play to find open looks... Either way, getting rid of handchecking allows for easier scoring... taking away the ability to use your hands to defend a ball handler, similar to the way that offensive linemen use their hands to block pass rushers, it gives the ball handler an extreme advantage.

[Alpha Wolf]

lmfao @ this guy, he's posted the same 3 arguments over and over and over. You are a straight up loser. You haven't has ***** since ***** had you. Put down the Kobe Bryant poster, get your **** out of your hand, and stop fantasizing about Kobe.

Kobe hasn't made it out of the first round of the playoffs without a good scoring big on his team. Jordan won 6 championships without even having 1 true good scoring big on his team you idiot!


http://www.nba.com/media/50_greatest_615_080211.jpg

Kobe has already been to The Finals without another top 50 player


Jordan never got out the first round without a top 50 player





Kobe has been the best individual player since 2000 and he's just getting started he said he will be playing for up top 8 more years bearing some ridiculous injury be afraid kobe haters be very afraid ......

[bruceblitz]

http://www.nba.com/media/50_greatest_615_080211.jpg

Kobe has already been to The Finals without another top 50 player


Jordan never got out the first round without a top 50 player





Kobe has been the best individual player since 2000 and he's just getting started he said he will be playing for up top 8 more years bearing some ridiculous injury be afraid kobe haters be very afraid ......

http://www.winecommonsewer.com/.a/6a00d8341cbb0453ef01156e661082970c-500pi

Kobe has been to the finals 5 times, 0 finals MVP's. Can we say CHOKE ARTIST? Good thing Shaq was there to carry his ass to 3 championships.

[bruceblitz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmVPi5m0DR8

Not much has changed since I made that video in spring 2007

[Alpha Wolf]

Why Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan:

Reason 1: Better defense, better players, more competition, and better basketball overall.

Kobe plays in the modern defensive era of traps, doubles, and zone defenses. From the year 2001, the NBA effectively legalized zone defensive, thus discouraging 1-on-1 play. Compare this to Michael Jordan's weaker era, where had to luxury of playing "iso" all game long. Kobe cannot even post up without getting doubled.

Many people think zone's are weak defenses, that is because so many teams don't play it properly. While they may be weak against great passing teams with shooters, if played properly, zone defenses are great against dominant individuals (Kobe, Garnett, etc) that have a weak supporting cast. The whole world plays zone. Even in College basketball, the "purest" form of basketball, the teams play almost entirely zone defense. Around the world, other countries use zone all the time. And if you want to see its effectiveness, just look at the 2006 summer games.

Furthermore today's NBA is far more competitive. Not only does Kobe have to deal with zone, he goes up against taller, bigger and stronger defenders than Jordan ever did. Back in the 1980's most of the shooting guards Jordan played against were 6''2 to 6''4. Kobe can shoot over shorter players like that with unbelievable efficiency, yet he plays against players that are 6''5 to 6''9. In the 80s, outside of a few good teams (Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Knicks) there was really not that much competition. Today, even the worst teams in the league (i.e bobcats, hawks) are good and can hold their own with any team they face.

Sure, the 80's was a more physical brand of basketball. But physicality, does not translate into effectiveness. If you ask any great scorer which is harder: 1) Playing with double and triple teams or 2) Having to deal with stiff-arms and armbars, they would chose the former. And furthermore, you think Kobe doesn't face armbars/stiff-arms? How can you guard Kobe without using your hands? It is impossible. With the rules the way they are, Kobe should be getting two free throws on almost every trip down.

Reason 2: Individual skill sets

Michael Jordan revolutionized the game of basketball and defined the future of the SG position. Then Kobe Bryant came along, and perfected this. When you compare their two skill sets, it goes like this:

Kobe Bryant: Better shooter, better ball-handler, better range, better play maker, better passer, better off-hand, better scorer, better killer instinct.

Michael Jordan: Smarter player, more efficient, more consistent defensively.

The both have the about equal footwork and "clutch" abilities.

In 2006, Phil Jackson said that "Kobe is better than Michael with the basketball." Even when Kobe was only 21 years old, Phil already said that Kobe is a better playmaker:

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker."

Link: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/clo ser/020212.html

So why is Michael Jordan revered while Kobe Bryant is not?

Michael Jordan had such a big impact on basketball financially and economically. In the early 80's, the league was in recession and basketball wasn't that big. When Michael Jordan came around, the league and its sponsors (Nike, Gatorade, etc), took a great player in Michael Jordan and turned him into an icon. Michael was a master of controlling his image, and appealing to the people. This is something Kobe has not managed to do. Jordan could do no wrong with fans, and possessed an almost saint-like status. It is this nostalgia and this image of Jordan that fans have come to love. This is why they cannot accept that Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan. By better, I don't mean statistically. Jordan will always have better numbers, averages, and accolades than Kobe. Period. But skill-wise and ability-wise, Kobe has surpassed him in this tougher era of basketball.

Lastly, there is a popular myth that Jordan won 6 titles as a one-man show. This is far from the truth. He played with:

-3 All-Stars (Pippen, Rodman, Grant)
-2 of the games best defenders (Pippen and Rodman)
-1 of the 50 greatest players of all-time (Pippen)
-2 The games best 3 point shooters (Kerr and Kukoc)

Even without Michael Jordan, Pippen and the bulls managed to get a staggering 55 wins.


idiot MJ Jockers!

[juju151111]

http://www.nba.com/media/50_greatest_615_080211.jpg

Kobe has already been to The Finals without another top 50 player


Jordan never got out the first round without a top 50 player





Kobe has been the best individual player since 2000 and he's just getting started he said he will be playing for up top 8 more years bearing some ridiculous injury be afraid kobe haters be very afraid ......
What do you consider choking. Bruce since he likes to answer to you, ask him to answer that question. If he can't answer he isn't even worth ur time.

[catch24]

Yet he still shoots lower than Iverson, and Vince in the playoffs. Needed Pau Gasol (allstar), Derek Fisher (co-captain) to get to the Finals. Pippen without Jordan = 0/7 in FINAL wins and appearances.

Pippen without Jordan = 50 wins = eliminated second round

Jordan with Pippen = 70 wins = Title very next year - not counting '95 where MJ only played 15 games pfft.

Stop trolling Gaybee42pah aka Alborz - whatever you call yourself..

[bruceblitz]

-3 All-Stars (Pippen, Rodman(couldn't score), Grant(inconsistent)
-2 of the games best defenders (Pippen and Rodman(liability on offense)
-1 of the 50 greatest players of all-time (Pippen)
-2 The games best 3 point shooters (Kerr and Kukoc)(this has to be a joke when players like Glen Rice and Reggie Miller were in the league)

Even without Michael Jordan, Pippen and the bulls managed to get a staggering 55 wins.


MJ fans own me!

Pippen's 55 win bulls overachieved. Pippen was to be MJ's replacement when MJ got 'too old'. So when MJ went to play baseball, all of us Bulls fans assumed that Pip would play the role of Jordan. Pip did manage to lead the team to 55 wins while Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong had solid years, as well as Toni Kukoc stepped up big time in key situations, as well as other players who stepped up big. Any way you look at it, the 55 wins is deceiving. Just look at the next year, Jordan was still playing baseball and the team started falling apart from the seams. Pippen got arrested, Pippen got mad about Toni Kukoc getting a last second shot attempt instead of him. The team was falling apart. The Bulls were struggling to stay over .500% win percentage, Jordan came back and they won 76% of the rest of their regular season games. Jordan came back to carry them over the finish line. In the very next season the Bulls won 72 games with Jordan, despite the fact that they were struggling to win even half their games the year before. Not to mention, in 1997-98 Pippen missed 36 regular season games and he missed Key minutes in the playoffs that year, still, Jordan carried the team over the finish line.....

[KobeRules24]

Leaders of championship teams = platinum

Sidekicks of championship teams = gold

Role players of championship teams = silver

Bench players of championship teams = bronze

Maybe that's an analogy that Alpha Kid can understand.

lmao :applause:

[Alpha Wolf]

Yet he still shoots lower than Iverson, and Vince in the playoffs. Needed Pau Gasol (allstar), Derek Fisher (co-captain) to get to the Finals. Pippen without Jordan = 0/7 in FINAL wins and appearances.

Pippen without Jordan = 50 wins = eliminated second round

Jordan with Pippen = 70 wins = Title very next year - not counting '95 where MJ only played 15 games pfft.

Stop trolling Gaybee42pah aka Alborz - whatever you call yourself..


Pau Gasol wasn't an All-Star last year


FAIL ....

[ruslan]

^
^
^
^
****ing idiot get a life.

[catch24]

LOL @ the copy-paste job by this clown. Kid has the downs straight up

[juju151111]

Why Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan:

Reason 1: Better defense, better players, more competition, and better basketball overall.

Kobe plays in the modern defensive era of traps, doubles, and zone defenses. From the year 2001, the NBA effectively legalized zone defensive, thus discouraging 1-on-1 play. Compare this to Michael Jordan's weaker era, where had to luxury of playing "iso" all game long. Kobe cannot even post up without getting doubled.

Many people think zone's are weak defenses, that is because so many teams don't play it properly. While they may be weak against great passing teams with shooters, if played properly, zone defenses are great against dominant individuals (Kobe, Garnett, etc) that have a weak supporting cast. The whole world plays zone. Even in College basketball, the "purest" form of basketball, the teams play almost entirely zone defense. Around the world, other countries use zone all the time. And if you want to see its effectiveness, just look at the 2006 summer games.

Furthermore today's NBA is far more competitive. Not only does Kobe have to deal with zone, he goes up against taller, bigger and stronger defenders than Jordan ever did. Back in the 1980's most of the shooting guards Jordan played against were 6''2 to 6''4. Kobe can shoot over shorter players like that with unbelievable efficiency, yet he plays against players that are 6''5 to 6''9. In the 80s, outside of a few good teams (Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Knicks) there was really not that much competition. Today, even the worst teams in the league (i.e bobcats, hawks) are good and can hold their own with any team they face.

Sure, the 80's was a more physical brand of basketball. But physicality, does not translate into effectiveness. If you ask any great scorer which is harder: 1) Playing with double and triple teams or 2) Having to deal with stiff-arms and armbars, they would chose the former. And furthermore, you think Kobe doesn't face armbars/stiff-arms? How can you guard Kobe without using your hands? It is impossible. With the rules the way they are, Kobe should be getting two free throws on almost every trip down.

Reason 2: Individual skill sets

Michael Jordan revolutionized the game of basketball and defined the future of the SG position. Then Kobe Bryant came along, and perfected this. When you compare their two skill sets, it goes like this:

Kobe Bryant: Better shooter, better ball-handler, better range, better play maker, better passer, better off-hand, better scorer, better killer instinct.

Michael Jordan: Smarter player, more efficient, more consistent defensively.

The both have the about equal footwork and "clutch" abilities.

In 2006, Phil Jackson said that "Kobe is better than Michael with the basketball." Even when Kobe was only 21 years old, Phil already said that Kobe is a better playmaker:

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker."

Link: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/clo ser/020212.html

So why is Michael Jordan revered while Kobe Bryant is not?

Michael Jordan had such a big impact on basketball financially and economically. In the early 80's, the league was in recession and basketball wasn't that big. When Michael Jordan came around, the league and its sponsors (Nike, Gatorade, etc), took a great player in Michael Jordan and turned him into an icon. Michael was a master of controlling his image, and appealing to the people. This is something Kobe has not managed to do. Jordan could do no wrong with fans, and possessed an almost saint-like status. It is this nostalgia and this image of Jordan that fans have come to love. This is why they cannot accept that Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan. By better, I don't mean statistically. Jordan will always have better numbers, averages, and accolades than Kobe. Period. But skill-wise and ability-wise, Kobe has surpassed him in this tougher era of basketball.

Lastly, there is a popular myth that Jordan won 6 titles as a one-man show. This is far from the truth. He played with:

-3 All-Stars (Pippen, Rodman, Grant)
-2 of the games best defenders (Pippen and Rodman)
-1 of the 50 greatest players of all-time (Pippen)
-2 The games best 3 point shooters (Kerr and Kukoc)

Even without Michael Jordan, Pippen and the bulls managed to get a staggering 55 wins.


idiot MJ Jockers!
LOL this is ripped right from pahs page. lol Pah det and me already debunked everything you listed. Keep ignoring me just like you always do.lol noting has changed.

[catch24]

Pau Gasol has been putting up "All-star" like numbers. That and he was another team's franchise player.

You=Epic Gray cloud fail

[catch24]

What I don't understand is why the guy keeps bringing up Bruce's personal life?

Insecurity?

[Alpha Wolf]

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm



Jordan was replaced by a CBA player and the Bulls still won 50 + games and made it deep into the playoffs they would have won a championship if Hugh Hollins doesn't call that foul on Scottie Pippen



idiot Jordan Jockers!

[bruceblitz]

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm



Jordan was replaced by a CBA player and the Bulls still won 50 + games and made it deep into the playoffs the would have won a championship if Hugh Hollins doesn't call that foul on Scottie Pippen



idiot Jordan Jockers!

How many more f'ing times do you want us to respond to that crap without you actually responding to our facts?

Pippen's 55 win bulls overachieved. Pippen was to be MJ's replacement when MJ got 'too old'. So when MJ went to play baseball, all of us Bulls fans assumed that Pip would play the role of Jordan. Pip did manage to lead the team to 55 wins while Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong had solid years, as well as Toni Kukoc stepped up big time in key situations, as well as other players who stepped up big. Any way you look at it, the 55 wins is deceiving. Just look at the next year, Jordan was still playing baseball and the team started falling apart from the seams. Pippen got arrested, Pippen got mad about Toni Kukoc getting a last second shot attempt instead of him. The team was falling apart. The Bulls were struggling to stay over .500% win percentage, Jordan came back and they won 76% of the rest of their regular season games. Jordan came back to carry them over the finish line. In the very next season the Bulls won 72 games with Jordan, despite the fact that they were struggling to win even half their games the year before. Not to mention, in 1997-98 Pippen missed 36 regular season games and he missed Key minutes in the playoffs that year, still, Jordan carried the team over the finish line.....
Michael Jordan is by far the most accomplished basketball player in history. Michael Jordan is also recognized by all basketball savants as the greatest of all time. Anyone arguing otherwise is a homer for another player. When you look at the facts, nobody is even close to Jordan status. Not even close.

No one approaches Jordan's number of Finals MVPs. The legend that Jordan was so dominant that he lost MVP awards because of it is true. The league voters tired of giving the award to the same player every year.

SO the NBA can stop using Michael Jordan's name to sell Kobe Bryant tickets.
Seeing that Jordan was the future of the NBA and Magic Johnson had only received one MVP in his career, they voted Johnson in 1989 and 1990, not to diminsh Magic's accomplishments. Jordan is #1 all-time in total MVP voting, #1 all-time in MVP award shares, and has by far the most total MVPs (Finals, season, All-Star) with 14. Michael Jordan is the only Defensive Player of the Year in history to lead the league in scoring. Only Karl Malone has more All-NBA First Team honors (with one more). Jordan has the most All-Defensive First Team honors in NBA history. Rookie Michael Jordan led his team in scoring, rebounding, assists and steals, making him the only NBA player in history to do that. Jordan was an All-Star every year in which he was eligible, and is #2 all-time in selections behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Jordan recorded the only triple double in All-Star Game history in 1997, but did not receive the MVP. Jordan has more scoring titles than any NBA franchise's entire history. He is the only player aside from Wilt Chamberlain to score 3000 points in a season. Jordan was the first player in NBA history to lead the league in both scoring and steals. He did it three times. Jordan led his team to the best regular season and combined regular and postseason records in NBA history.

[juju151111]

Pau Gasol wasn't an All-Star last year


FAIL ....
neither was Deron williams. You have no point idiot and you have yet to answer the fuking question pah.OH time to make you shut up. SCOTTIE PIPPEN WASN'T A ALLSTAR IN 91 OWNEEEEEEEEEEENNNEEEDDDD

[catch24]

Yet they were eliminated by the Knicks during the second round who they previously beat three years consecutive - '91-93. With Jordan they won 70 games, went to the finals which they failed doing in '94 and won a title.

You fail again Alborz

[Alpha Wolf]

neither was Deron williams. You have no point idiot and you have yet to answer the fuking question pah.OH time to make you shut up. SCOTTIE PIPPEN WASN'T A ALLSTAR IN 91 OWNEEEEEEEEEEENNNEEEDDDD

what question

[bruceblitz]

what question
The Boston Globe, January 21st, 1994

CHICAGO -- Chicago Bulls All-Star forward Scottie Pippen was arrested early yesterday and charged with unlawful possession of a weapon after police noticed a handgun in his car, which was parked outside a restaurant. Police said Pippen was arrested shortly after midnight after a police officer checking out his illegally parked car noticed the loaded semiautomatic weapon inside.


SOME TEAM LEADER!

[catch24]

The Boston Globe, January 21st, 1994

CHICAGO -- Chicago Bulls All-Star forward Scottie Pippen was arrested early yesterday and charged with unlawful possession of a weapon after police noticed a handgun in his car, which was parked outside a restaurant. Police said Pippen was arrested shortly after midnight after a police officer checking out his illegally parked car noticed the loaded semiautomatic weapon inside.


SOME TEAM LEADER!

LOL!

[KobeRules24]

The Boston Globe, January 21st, 1994

CHICAGO -- Chicago Bulls All-Star forward Scottie Pippen was arrested early yesterday and charged with unlawful possession of a weapon after police noticed a handgun in his car, which was parked outside a restaurant. Police said Pippen was arrested shortly after midnight after a police officer checking out his illegally parked car noticed the loaded semiautomatic weapon inside.


SOME TEAM LEADER!

bruce don't respond to this clown, guys like him are the reason we real kobe fans don't get any respect in this forums.

[juju151111]

what question
What do you consider choking in the playoffs?Also pip wasn't on the ALLSTAR team in 91 so your BS cliam about kobe going to the finals by himself is debunked. Now answer the fuking question pah.

[bruceblitz]

some Son Jordan was his dad got murdered because of his gambling debts

LMFAO!

They didn't know it was Michael Jordan's dad til LATER YOU DUMB ASS!

James Jordan: shock and sadness follow shooting of Michael Jordan's father
August 30, 1993

As family members and the nation suffered a weekend of shock and sadness following James Jordan's violent death, North Carolina police authorities arrested two 18-year-olds with criminal records and charged them with the slaying. The teens' motive was robbery, they said.

"What happened to Mr. Jordan was the kind of random violence that all the public are concerned about and afraid of," said Jim Coman, director of the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation. "It could have been any one of us."

The two allegedly had set out to rob someone, never imagining their victim would be the father of the Chicago Bulls basketball star Michael Jordan.

Shooting Was Act Of Random Violence

The 56-year-old Jordan was shot in the chest with a .38 caliber handgun on Friday, July 23, apparently after he parked his car to take a nap along the gravel entrance to a store on U.S. 74 near Lumberton in southeastern North Carolina, authorities said. The autopsy report noted the bullet severed the aorta of his heart.

He would have celebrated his 57th birthday the following week.

His body, found floating in a South Carolina creek Tuesday, Aug. 3, was not identified until Friday, August 13.

Marlboro County Coroner Tim Brown noted that with days of near 100-degree heat speeding decomposition of the body, he hadn't facilities to store it and ordered cremation. "This was the first time that we did not know who we had within a few days or so. We were left with nobody missing in North Carolina and nobody missing in South Carolina."

It's a very small town in a rural county. They don't have the funds to pay for a burial and this is what they opted to do," said Hugh Munn, spokesman for the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division explaining the cremation.

Many questioned the coroner's decision to cremate the unidentified body.

William Gibson, a prominent dentist and chairman of the NAACP's 64-member national board of directors, reported in USA Today he thinks race played a part in the decision. "If this was a White individual with the extensive amount of dental work, the body would not have been cremated in just three days," he said.

As a result, Gibson said the NAACP will push for a state law creating some central control over county coroners.

On Sunday, August 15 officials arrested Larry Martin Demery of Rowland, N.C., who is a native American and Daniel Andre Green of Lumberton, who is Black, on charges of murder, armed robbery and conspiracy. They were jailed without bond.

"They had conspired to rob before they left home," said Cumberland (N.C.) Count5 Sheriff Morris Bedsole. "I don't know if they knew who, what or where. This is what they ended up with."

Green was paroled in June after serving less than two years for a conviction in Robeson Count for assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill and armed robbery, Robeson County Sheriff Hubert Stone said. Demery was under indictment for armed robbery and out on bond.

Police said Jordan was driving home to Charlotte, N.C., from longtime friend Willie Kemp's funeral when he stopped his car to rest. He was killed early in the morning on July 23, Stone said. They then went through his thinks and found out whom they had killed.

"Once they knew it was Michael Jordan's father, they tried to cover their tracks the best they could," by taking the body to South Carolina, said Capt. Art Binder of the Cumberland Sheriff's Department.

The suspects drove Jordan's car 30 miles south to McColl, S.C., where they dumped the body in a creek, then drove back to Fayetteville, Binder reported.

They apparently kept the car, a red Lexus 400, for three days before abandoning it near Fayetteville, police said. The car was seen in and around a trailer park where Green lived.

The car ended up in the hands of several youths who drove it for a while, then stripped it of parts. It was found Aug. 5 on a secluded dirt road near Fayetteville, in Cumberland County, but officials did not know until August 11 it belonged to Jordan.

Green and Demery were arrested at the Robeson County Sherfffs Department after being called in for questioning. No murder weapon had been recovered at Jet press time.

Police said the two were caught because they left electronic footprints when they used the cellular phone in Jordan's car. "One of the things that helped us the most was the car phone," Binder said. "They took the phone, they made telephone calls, and we traced them."

Joe Schulte, an agent for the State Bureau of Investigation, said more charges including carjacking, may be filed against the suspects.

Ironically, while police closed in on the suspects, about 200 hundred relatives and friends attended the services of Mr. Jordan.

Though his disappearance and murder shocked a nation as well as the Jordan family, his widow, Deloris, and their five children had words of encouragement in a prepared statement:

"Dad is no longer with us. But the lessons he taught us will give us the strength to move forward with a renewed sense of purpose in our lives."

[Godfather]

some son Jordan was his dad got murdered because of his gambling debts

Reported.

Go jump of a cliff.

[KobeRules24]

This is disgusting

[bruceblitz]

This is disgusting

Agreed.

[bruceblitz]

bruce don't respond to this clown, guys like him are the reason we real kobe fans don't get any respect in this forums.


If you look at my thelebronjamesblitz channel on youtube I have a bunch of "youtube friends" who are Kobe fans on there. I know there is a huge difference between Kobe Bryant stalkers and Kobe fans. Believe me. I just can't sit here letting this clown post so many false facts and propaganda about the greatest basketball player of all time, as a fan of the game.

[branslowski]

Pau Gasol has been putting up "All-star" like numbers. That and he was another team's franchise player.

You=Epic Gray cloud fail

Catch24 using my Epic Cloudy Fail line...:oldlol:

[KobeRules24]

If you look at my thelebronjamesblitz channel on youtube I have a bunch of "youtube friends" who are Kobe fans on there. I know there is a huge difference between Kobe Bryant stalkers and Kobe fans. Believe me. I just can't sit here letting this clown post so many false facts and propaganda about the greatest basketball player of all time, as a fan of the game.

I understand, this guy will be banned soon...i hope

[catch24]

LOL brans...it's an "epic" line :)

[bruceblitz]

I understand, this guy will be banned soon...i hope

I hope so too, I'm sick of wasting so much time in my life debunking his propaganda.

[catch24]

By the way Bruce

<---Mayhem

[bruceblitz]

Catch24 using my Epic Cloudy Fail line...:oldlol:

Immitation is the best form of flattery :cheers:

[bruceblitz]

By the way Bruce

<---Mayhem

No ****? What's up dude! Now you guys see why I debunk so much crap. Man it was so much worse about 3 years ago. There were about 5x's as many Alpha Trolls and Alborz's, but they have all seen the light. Thankfully there are only a few lunatics left. I remember reading a comment from you mayhem or branslowski or someone that I had gotten a lot better with my debunking of certain myths around Kobe the last couple of years, the fact of the matter is there is less to debunk. Just people like Mark Jackson, alborz and alpha troll are still out there posting lies and propaganda.

At least Mark Jackson has backed away from his statement and someone told me that Alborz is considering changing his stance to more of a realistic stance, which is hard to believe.

[branslowski]

Shouldn't there be a line between being a fan of Kobe's game on the court....and wanting to sleep with him off the court?

Alpha=Approaching that line..

[catch24]

some of those loonies left = FEAR

lol

[bruceblitz]

some of those loonies left = FEAR

lol

No, those people who came around to reality = high IQ to me.

[bruceblitz]

Shouldn't there be a line between being a fan of Kobe's game on the court....and wanting to sleep with him off the court?

Alpha=Approaching that line..

True that.

[Alpha Wolf]

What do you consider choking in the playoffs?Also pip wasn't on the ALLSTAR team in 91 so your BS cliam about kobe going to the finals by himself is debunked. Now answer the fuking question pah.



lets see

having ONE WIN AND NINE LOSES without another top 50 player ?

not being able to get out the first round without another top 50 player ?



jordan is only worth 2 wins to the Bulls !!

he year before jordan retired, the Bulls were 57-25. In the first year of jordan's retirement, with basically the same team, they were 55-27. 57 - 55 = 2. If jordon was so valuable to the Bulls, you would think the Bulls would struggle without him ?

idiot MJ jockers!

[catch24]

^_^

[KobeRules24]

No ****? What's up dude! Now you guys see why I debunk so much crap. Man it was so much worse about 3 years ago. There were about 5x's as many Alpha Trolls and Alborz's, but they have all seen the light. Thankfully there are only a few lunatics left.

me=kobenpau on youtube bruce, i used to hate your guts but now i understand why you do this :applause: i'm a real fan of the game, hey unblock me in the lebronjamesblitz channel when u get a chance

[bruceblitz]

I wish I could sniff Kobe's jock!

"Michael Jordan is the greatest to play the game" - Kobe Bryant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHJ0HblT1bY

[catch24]

Pippen wasn't an allstar nor was he a top 50 player in '91

Bury your head in the sand Fail

[bruceblitz]

me=kobenpau on youtube bruce, i used to hate your guts but now i understand why you do this :applause: i'm not a blind fan anymore, i was for about a year but man now i can say i'm a real fan of the game. by the way, unblock me when you get a chance bruce lmao. :cheers:

I will do that my friend. All of the Kobe posts I ever made on youtube, that were viewed as negative, were responses to people like that man. Sorry I had to block you but I really do detest flame debates like this so I try to limit myself on them.

Anyways you guys know I have Kobe in my top 10 of all time perimeter player's list, but his career isn't over so he could move up.

Kobe Bryant is a very talented basketball player, Kobe Bryant set out to emulate Michael Jordan and any observer of the game can see that. Kobe's level of play and achievements have fallen well short of Michael Jordan's level of play and achievements. Kobe Bryant is too far off pace to catch Jordan status yet the NBA continues to use Michael Jordan's name in an attempt to draw more fans to Kobe Bryant. It's not right and they need to stop degrading what Jordan status truly is. To be a true Jordan type player, Kobe would need to have done much much more by this point in his career, he will not ever achieve Jordan status. Everyone should state it like this, --Kobe is an extremely talented player who emulates Michael Jordan, Jordan is a player he looks to emulate because Jordan inspired many people, Kobe Bryant is a Michael Jordan inspired athlete.--

[bruceblitz]

Pippen wasn't an allstar nor was he a top 50 player in '91

Bury your head in the sand Fail

You can't tell that to a Kobe fan who just started watching the game intensely in the 2005-2006 season, he's only looked back on the NBA's history in an attempt to find ways to diminish Jordan. It's psychotic.

[catch24]

Alpha, what happened during the '94 playoffs?

[branslowski]

Guy's I have to do this, I gotta prove to Kobe that I love him and passion for him deeply

:wtf:

[Alpha Wolf]

Alpha, what happened during the '94 playoffs?


hue hollins

[Duncan21formvp]

lets see

having ONE WIN AND NINE LOSES without another top 50 player ?

not being able to get out the first round without another top 50 player ?



jordan is only worth 2 wins to the Bulls !!

he year before jordan retired, the Bulls were 57-25. In the first year of jordan's retirement, with basically the same team, they were 55-27. 57 - 55 = 2. If jordon was so valuable to the Bulls, you would think the Bulls would struggle without him ?

idiot MJ jockers!

Pippen wasn't a top 50 player in 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 nor 1993. If he was a top 50 player it didn't happen until 1996 after they won their 4th title.

Don't be dumb.

So that means Wade is much better than Kobe since as a rookie Wade led his team to round 2 with Odom and Butler while when Kobe had them he didn't make the playoffs.

[catch24]

hue hollins

ROFL!!!

In other words, Jordan wasn't there to save his "minions".

[imdaman99]

Why do we always end up talking about MJ when the thread isn't about him? Lets stick to the topic. Its about Kobe, VC and AI.

I believe AI has been the best so far, and I'm a Kobe guy. But Kobe isn't done. He still has about 4-5 playoff runs with him being the man. He could win the title this year with him as the Finals MVP, and he can do so for another 3-4 years. But thats debatable and for another day.

AI's playoff years in the future look bleak, as well as VC's. So best playoff performer out of those 3, right now its AI, but maybe by next year if you ask me the same question, it very well may be Kobe. And 5 years from now, it will undoubtedly be Kobe.

[KobeRules24]

hue hollins

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Alpha Wolf]

Alpha, what happened during the '94 playoffs?


what happened

in the 85' 86' 87' playoffs ?

[Abraham Lincoln]

Shouldn't there be a line between being a fan of Kobe's game on the court....and wanting to sleep with him off the court?

Alpha=Approaching that line..
My fellow wise man, I shan't have mistaken thou as I recently have. Sincere apologies may be bestowed. In the words of the great Abraham Lincoln, "I do not think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday." All my best wishes good sir, towards ridding this forum of all the characters that it shelters.

[catch24]

Kobe's going to be one of the greatest to ever play no doubt. But why are people infatuated with putting him over MJ and saying he's quote on quote "greater". Be real with yourself, you people honestly believe that?

[catch24]

what happened

in the 85' 86' 87' playoffs ?

No co captains like Derek Fisher and Allstars like Pau Gasol is what happened.

[bruceblitz]

hue hollins

Flashing his low basketball IQ once again.

Alpha has no answer to this though:
Pippen was to be MJ's replacement when MJ got 'too old'. So when MJ went to play baseball, all of us Bulls fans assumed that Pip would play the role of Jordan. Pip did manage to lead the team to 55 wins while Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong had solid years, as well as Toni Kukoc stepped up big time in key situations, as well as other players who stepped up big. Any way you look at it, the 55 wins is deceiving. Just look at the next year, Jordan was still playing baseball and the team started falling apart from the seams. Pippen got arrested, Pippen got mad about Toni Kukoc getting a last second shot attempt instead of him. The team was falling apart. The Bulls were struggling to stay over .500% win percentage, Jordan came back and they won 76% of the rest of their regular season games. Jordan came back to carry them over the finish line. In the very next season the Bulls won 72 games with Jordan, despite the fact that they were struggling to win even half their games the year before. Not to mention, in 1997-98 Pippen missed 36 regular season games and he missed Key minutes in the playoffs that year, still, Jordan carried the team over the finish line.....

The Boston Globe, January 21st, 1994

CHICAGO -- Chicago Bulls All-Star forward Scottie Pippen was arrested early yesterday and charged with unlawful possession of a weapon after police noticed a handgun in his car, which was parked outside a restaurant. Police said Pippen was arrested shortly after midnight after a police officer checking out his illegally parked car noticed the loaded semiautomatic weapon inside.


SOME TEAM LEADER!

[KobeRules24]

My fellow wise man, I shan't have mistaken thou as I recently have. Sincere apologies may be bestowed. In the words of the great Abraham Lincoln, "I do not think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday." All my best wishes good sir, towards ridding this forum of all the characters that it shelters.

I love you lincoln!!! :rockon:

[imdaman99]

Kobe's going to be one of the greatest to ever play no doubt. But why are people infatuated with putting him over MJ and saying he's quote on quote "greater". Be real with yourself, you people honestly believe that?
By "people" do you mean Alpha? I don't get why you guys keep responding to him. He is obviously getting a kick out of getting you all riled up over this.

[Alpha Wolf]

If Pippen is so great, why couldn’t he win without jordon in 1993-94?

Answer: 2 words: Hue Hollins. jordan could have tackled Hubert Davis at the end of game 5 and the jordan-jocking refs wouldn’t have called a foul. (Need proof? Look at the jordan no-call at the end of the game 4 vs. Charlotte in 1995). However, unlike jordan, Pippen doesn’t control David Stern, who in turn controls the outcome of the games through the officials. The league would profit more by having the big media-city New York go to the finals than the jordon-less Bulls. If jordan had not been so selfish, and had chosen to retire before the draft, instead of before the start of camp, the Bulls could have drafted a shooting guard, or better yet, picked up somebody like Kevin Edwards, who though unspectacular, would certainly have been better than a CBA-journeyman like Pete Myers. Edwards certainly would have been able to make up the 1 point the Bulls lost by in the 5th game.

[catch24]

Alpha Wolf how many games did the Bulls win in '98 when Scottie missed 32 games? I know they sure missed him!

[catch24]

Alpha and his Kobe closet homos.

[bruceblitz]

I am a loser.
http://www.hotstocked.com/articles-img/small/loser.JPG

[branslowski]

My fellow wise man, I shan't have mistaken thou as I recently have. Sincere apologies may be bestowed. In the words of the great Abraham Lincoln, "I do not think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday." All my best wishes good sir, towards ridding this forum of all the characters that it shelters.

Its All good Ab...:oldlol:

[catch24]

[QUOTE=Alpha Wolf]Answer: 2 words: Hue Hollins. jordan could have tackled Hubert Davis at the end of game 5 and the jordan-jocking refs wouldn

[Alpha Wolf]

Why did the Bulls win 72 games in 1995-96 if jordon is so bad?

Answer: As I stated before, jordon is worth 2 wins. Without Horace Grant, the "almighty" jordan was not able to win the title in 1995. The Bulls set out to acquire a rebounding power forward to gather jordan's many bricks and correct the mistakes of jordan the albatross. The Bulls added a rebounder and a winner (2 titles) in Dennis Rodman, and they went from an "also ran" to the premiere team in basketball. The next year, they slipped 3 games, but without Pippen this year (1997-98), they swan-dived to the level of what jordan himself called "an expansion team." jordon is dead weight. If, instead of jordan, the Bulls had a legitimate star in their backcourt, like Mitch Richmond,Reggie Miller, or Super John Starks, the Bulls would have probably won 78-80 games in 1995-96.

[juju151111]

lets see

having ONE WIN AND NINE LOSES without another top 50 player ?

not being able to get out the first round without another top 50 player ?



jordan is only worth 2 wins to the Bulls !!

he year before jordan retired, the Bulls were 57-25. In the first year of jordan's retirement, with basically the same team, they were 55-27. 57 - 55 = 2. If jordon was so valuable to the Bulls, you would think the Bulls would struggle without him ?

idiot MJ jockers!
I mean in a gm. DO you consider choking has playing great, but teamates brick everything in a loss has that player choking? Or do you consider shooting 35% from the floor and having subar stats in a loss has that player choking? Answer this question and people will leave you alone.

[bruceblitz]

[QUOTE=Alpha Wolf]Answer: 2 words: Hue Hollins. jordan could have tackled Hubert Davis at the end of game 5 and the jordan-jocking refs wouldn

[Alpha Wolf]

How can you say that jordon is only worth 2 wins to the Bulls?



Easy. The year before jordon retired, the Bulls were 57-25. In the first year of jordon's retirement, with basically the same team, they were 55-27. 57 - 55 = 2. If jordon was so valuable to the Bulls, you would think the Bulls would struggle without him

[branslowski]

Bottom Line...MJ is BY FAR...The GOAT....And Im guessing that if you watched MJ in his Prime Alpha, that you would feel the same way...Your sorry attempts to Prop Kobe up to a MJ like Level, while deminishing MJ's legacy (or should I say try) is making every Kobe fan who knows right from wrong, look bad...

[catch24]

I guess the Bulls won 62 games in '98 while Pippen was injured for 32 games because...

*waiting on another legendary conspiracy by Alpha*

[bruceblitz]

Alpha Crack has no answer for the following other than "Jordan's Bulls won 27 games before his rookie year, Jordan got them to the playoffs every year he was on the team, but it was all Pippen."


I am going to still this post from a knowledgeable poster on two other sites. This is how he explains why MJ is the GOAT.

Well let's look at some of the candidates first.

1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)

Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:


League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.

Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2006/12/top-50-basketball-players-of-all-time.html

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.

MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

Also consider

Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.


Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?




http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

Why is Kobe Bryant ever so absent from lists like these?


Pippen wasn't a top 50 player in 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 nor 1993. If he was a top 50 player it didn't happen until 1996 after they won their 4th title.

Don't be dumb.

So that means Wade is much better than Kobe since as a rookie Wade led his team to round 2 with Odom and Butler while when Kobe had them he didn't make the playoffs.

[bruceblitz]

Alpha Crack has no answer for the following other than "Jordan's Bulls won 27 games before his rookie year, Jordan got them to the playoffs every year he was on the team, but it was all Pippen."


How many more f'ing times do you want us to respond to that crap without you actually responding to our facts?

Pippen's 55 win bulls overachieved. Pippen was to be MJ's replacement when MJ got 'too old'. So when MJ went to play baseball, all of us Bulls fans assumed that Pip would play the role of Jordan. Pip did manage to lead the team to 55 wins while Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong had solid years, as well as Toni Kukoc stepped up big time in key situations, as well as other players who stepped up big. Any way you look at it, the 55 wins is deceiving. Just look at the next year, Jordan was still playing baseball and the team started falling apart from the seams. Pippen got arrested, Pippen got mad about Toni Kukoc getting a last second shot attempt instead of him. The team was falling apart. The Bulls were struggling to stay over .500% win percentage, Jordan came back and they won 76% of the rest of their regular season games. Jordan came back to carry them over the finish line. In the very next season the Bulls won 72 games with Jordan, despite the fact that they were struggling to win even half their games the year before. Not to mention, in 1997-98 Pippen missed 36 regular season games and he missed Key minutes in the playoffs that year, still, Jordan carried the team over the finish line.....
Michael Jordan is by far the most accomplished basketball player in history. Michael Jordan is also recognized by all basketball savants as the greatest of all time. Anyone arguing otherwise is a homer for another player. When you look at the facts, nobody is even close to Jordan status. Not even close.

No one approaches Jordan's number of Finals MVPs. The legend that Jordan was so dominant that he lost MVP awards because of it is true. The league voters tired of giving the award to the same player every year.

SO the NBA can stop using Michael Jordan's name to sell Kobe Bryant tickets.
Seeing that Jordan was the future of the NBA and Magic Johnson had only received one MVP in his career, they voted Johnson in 1989 and 1990, not to diminsh Magic's accomplishments. Jordan is #1 all-time in total MVP voting, #1 all-time in MVP award shares, and has by far the most total MVPs (Finals, season, All-Star) with 14. Michael Jordan is the only Defensive Player of the Year in history to lead the league in scoring. Only Karl Malone has more All-NBA First Team honors (with one more). Jordan has the most All-Defensive First Team honors in NBA history. Rookie Michael Jordan led his team in scoring, rebounding, assists and steals, making him the only NBA player in history to do that. Jordan was an All-Star every year in which he was eligible, and is #2 all-time in selections behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Jordan recorded the only triple double in All-Star Game history in 1997, but did not receive the MVP. Jordan has more scoring titles than any NBA franchise's entire history. He is the only player aside from Wilt Chamberlain to score 3000 points in a season. Jordan was the first player in NBA history to lead the league in both scoring and steals. He did it three times. Jordan led his team to the best regular season and combined regular and postseason records in NBA history.


Jordan is the GOAT. Period.

1981 Breaks record at McDonald's All-American game by scoring 30 points

1982= hits game winner for North Carolina, jumps into pass lane on defense forcing Sleepy Floyd to turn the ball over to James Worthy.

1983 = UNC choked in the NCAA tourney despite having the #2 seed, not Jordan

1984 = 1984 Named college Player of the Year. 1984 Wins Olympic gold medal as the leader of the U.S. basketball team. UNC choked again in the sweet 16 despite having the #1 seed, not Jordan

1985 = joined Chicago, who only won 27 games the year before, and led the franchise to 38 games and the playoff's. 1985 Named NBA Rookie of the Year.

1986 = Took the Celtics to a 3rd game rubber match, (yes kids only 3 game series at that point in NBA history), scored 63 points on the team that went on to win the championship that year, the Celtics were the #1 rated defense in the NBA, Jordan took them to their limit, despite Orlando Woolridge shooing 9-27 in the game, Jordan still kept the Bulls in it.

1987 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 48.2%(37.1ppg) of his shot attempts, Winner Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA Defensive Player of the Year, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named to the All-NBA First Team, back in the playoffs again. Jordan averaged over 40 points per game for over half of this season.

1988 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.5% of his shot attempts, Wins Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, Pippen was still developing, the help around Jordan was limited, lost to the eventual world champs in the playoffs, still got them to the playoffs

1989 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.8% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Jordan and his teammates had a decent showing against the Pistons, Jordan did everything he could, the cast around him hadn't developed enough to beat a stacked team like Detroit.

1990 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 52.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Once again ran into the Detroit buzzsaw, but still led the Bulls to the playoffs.

1991 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Chicago Bulls to their first NBA title. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy.

1992 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 51.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Wins Olympic gold medal with U.S. basketball team, leads bulls to back-to-back titles. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor.

1993 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads bulls to their 3rd straight championship, In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, an NBA finals record which has never been threatened.

1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

1996 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player. Leads Bulls to their 4th championship of Jordan's career as leader of the team. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. (Dennis Rodman, great defender, even though Gary Payton beat him out for defensive player of the year award and Dennis Rodman's prime was in the 80's, Rodman was a liability on offense, still contributed with defense and rebounding.)

1997 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 48.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Bulls to 5th championship as the leader of the team, In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

1998 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 46.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, led Bulls to 6th championship as leader of the team, In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

-Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards


2001 - 02 = MJ comes out of retirement to play for the Wizards, Jordan was 8 years removed from his prime.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career.
Doug Collins decided to move Jordan to the point guard spot against Seattle on March 11, 1989. He finished that game with 15 assists. Two days later, he had a game of 21/14/14 against the Pacers in just 30 minutes of playing time in a 32-point blowout win. He reached the triple double mark in just 21 minutes. Jordan continued to play at the PG spot until the end of the season. In these 24 games he averaged 29.3ppg, 8.9rpg, 10.6 apg, 2.4spg. Between March 24 and April 14, 1989, he recorded a triple double in ten of the eleven games, including seven consecutive ones. In the game he didn't record a triple double, he finished with 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds. The hands down greatest of all time, anyone disputing this is a misinformed individual.

Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.


Keep trying to post propaganda, kid.

[bruceblitz]

Notice, the only thing Alpha Crack can even attempt to diminish is the level of importance to the team's success that Jordan was. Even though the Bulls = 0 titles without MJ and 6 with him, he continues to give the team more credit than the team leader. Notice, he can't dispute all the scoring records and individual accomplishments. lmfao!

What a dumb ****!

[bruceblitz]

I am a loser.
http://www.hotstocked.com/articles-img/small/loser.JPG

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Alpha Wolf]

Notice, the only thing Alpha Crack can even attempt to diminish is the level of importance to the team's success that Jordan was. Even though the Bulls = 0 titles without MJ and 6 with him, he continues to give the team more credit than the team leader. Notice, he can't dispute all the scoring records and individual accomplishments. lmfao!

What a dumb ****!


Bulls=0 titles without Pippen and 6 with him


Jordan never made it out the first round without Pippen

Pippen made it to ECSF & WCF without Jordan




put down the Space Jam doll bruce

[bruceblitz]

I smoke crack
Put down the crack Alpha Fruit

[bruceblitz]

Jordan is the greatest, period.

[Alpha Wolf]

http://www.auctionzealot.com/members/Sparechange1/p1010225.jpg



put it down

[bruceblitz]

Magic Johnson calls Michael Jordan the "best ever" in 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w

Magic Johnson: "sometimes the Bulls rely on Michael too much" basically says the Lakers of the 80's had "so many more weapons than the Bulls".

lol owned

[catch24]

Bulls=0 titles without Pippen and 6 with him


Jordan never made it out the first round without Pippen

Pippen made it to ECSF & WCF without Jordan

Bulls = Bulls = 0 without MJ and 6 with him

Pippen never made it to the finals without Jordan

Jordan comes back from retirement and wins 70 games including a finals mvp

[Duncan21formvp]

Bulls=0 titles without Pippen and 6 with him


Jordan never made it out the first round without Pippen

Pippen made it to ECSF & WCF without Jordan




put down the Space Jam doll bruce

Kobe never made it out of round 1 without Fisher. Fisher made the Conference finals without Kobe. Thus Fisher >>> Kobe

dumb ass.

[indiefan23]

[QUOTE=indiefan23]
yup The Bulls beat the Lakers. Yes, the jordan jockers at NBC tried to hype it as "Magic vs. Michael," but that was a farce. Basketball is STILL a team game (even when jordan is on your team…the rest of the players have to play THAT much better like a team to make up for him). Furthermore, Magic did not guard jordan, because he was defending better offensive threats on the Bulls, and after jordan got spanked trying to guard Magic in game #1, he no longer guarded Magic.


Ha, that's rich. I'll tell you exactly what happened in the 91 finals. MJ didn't win a game against Magic. It wasn't even a series against Magic. It wasn't even 10 minutes of a game. Michael did this to him:

http://www.youtube.com/v/oBseRlgoSLc&hl=en&fs=1

And just broke his brain.

You are pwned. Go home.

[catch24]

Kobe never made it out of round 1 without Fisher. Fisher made the Conference finals without Kobe. Thus Fisher >>> Kobe

dumb ass.

rofl!:cheers:

[Godfather]

Kobe never made it out of round 1 without Fisher. Fisher made the Conference finals without Kobe. Thus Fisher >>> Kobe

dumb ass.

:oldlol::applause:

[Torious]

Playoffs

Kobe Bryant
24.3 ppg, 44.5% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg

Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg

Yeah, don't mind Carter's crappy shooting percantage or the fact that Kobe's resume includes 2 seasons where he played minor minutes due to his youth.

Carter has won like 16 of the 42 PO games he played, which equals a pedestrian .380.


Vince's playoff numbers are much better than Kobe as is his PER.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

25. Vince Carter 21.40
26. Kobe Bryant 21.29
27. Allen Iverson 21.23


6. Tracy McGrady 24.66

Welp. I guess T-Mac is a better playoff performer then all of the three above, even though he's never even won a single series. :confusedshrug:


Iverson has 10 games of 40+ and in one playoffs alone had 6 games of 40+ points. In fact, Kobe only has 6 games of 40+ in his entire playoff career.

Good for him. He probably also jacked up over half his teams shots to get there with his awesome playoff shooting percentage of .400

I'm fairly sure Kobe could easily have gotten dozens of 40+ games in his playoff career, but if he jacked up shots like AI, he would probably have won just as many Rings as AI. (And Shaq would probably have killed him for messing up the playoffs to pad his stats.)

[OldSchoolBBall]

and after jordan got spanked trying to guard Magic in game #1, he no longer guarded Magic.

Do you mean after Magic got coddled by the refs and bailed out with several bogus calls in the post? Watch the game.

I'd also love to know what series you were watching, since Jordan guarded Magic for 50-60% of that series (all of game 1, first quarter of game 2, about 25% of game 3, half of game 4, and virtually all of game 6; the entire series is on youtube for anyone to verify this for themselves).

[Alpha Wolf]

Kobe never made it out of round 1 without Fisher. Fisher made the Conference finals without Kobe. Thus Fisher >>> Kobe

dumb ass.


is Derek Fisher a top 50 all time player like Pippen is?.........

Did derek fisher ever make the allstar team without Kobe?..NO..

Did Derek Fisher evermake the all defensive team without Kobe?...NO

Was Kobe win more then 1 playoff game without D - Fish?.....Yes!

[bruceblitz]

All of ISH is owning me now! Yes!


Magic Johnson calls Michael Jordan the "best ever" in 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jAbDdCz49Y

Magic Johnson: "sometimes the Bulls rely on Michael too much" basically says the Lakers of the 80's had "so many more weapons than the Bulls".

lol owned

Why is Michael Jordan the best ever? This video explains:
David Stern calls Jordan the standard barrier
Dr J calls Jordan the best basketball player ever seen
Jerry West calls Jordan best ever and flawless also calls him Superman. Jerry West says Jordan emotionally destroys players and takes their courage away
Elgin Baylor calls Michael Jordan impossible to defend
Magic Johnson says the only weakness to Jordan is if he shows up and only wants to score 30 instead of 50 (being sarcastic)
Bob Cousy calls Jordan the mona lisa of basketball, says Jordan is the best basketball player he's ever seen perform
Chuck Daly also makes reference to Jordan being the best ever and the ultimate competitor.
Magic Johnson: "I thought I was the most competitive person I ever knew, until I met Michael"

Magic Johnson "there wont ever be another Michael Jordan, that's for sure"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E

Scottie Pippen calls Jordan the greatest player ever seen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKCQKoklDdw


:hammertime:

[juju151111]

Kobe never made it out of round 1 without Fisher. Fisher made the Conference finals without Kobe. Thus Fisher >>> Kobe

dumb ass.
:roll: :lol owned

[Duncan21formvp]

is Derek Fisher a top 50 all time player like Pippen is?.........

Did derek fisher ever make the allstar team without Kobe?..NO..

Did Derek Fisher evermake the all defensive team without Kobe?...NO

Was Kobe win more then 1 playoff game without D - Fish?.....Yes!


Fisher >>>> Kobe

Oh and Kobe is not good enough to turn a player into a top 50 player like MJ did with Pippen. Pippen in fact was soo bad his rookie year that he had a Negative Offensive Win Shares amount in the season and playoffs which means he hurt the team more than helped them.

Kobe has never gotten out of round 1 without him and he never will thus Fisher > Kobe. And since neither have finals MVP's that's what we go by.

Dumb Ass

[DonDadda59]

Bottom Line...MJ is BY FAR...The GOAT....And Im guessing that if you watched MJ in his Prime Alpha, that you would feel the same way...Your sorry attempts to Prop Kobe up to a MJ like Level, while deminishing MJ's legacy (or should I say try) is making every Kobe fan who knows right from wrong, look bad...

Me and you have not always seen eye-to-eye, but reading the posts of a lunatic like Beta Puppy (aka Alborz, Birdoverrated, etc and so on) just reminds me of why I blindly attack those I see as Kobe jockers. There are plenty of reasonable Lakers and Kobe fans out there who don't feel the need to attempt to diminish past legends (and more recent ones like Shaq) to try to prop up their homosexual obsessions. Anyone who claims to be a Lakers fan and then says Magic, Kareem, Shaq, etc are overrated isn't a fan at all. And looney tunes like Alborz just don't live in reality and saw downright disturbing things like 'Michael Jordan caused his father's murder'? That's where you cross the line and it's not even about sports anymore, just a lonely troll with a bizarre man-crush spewing nonsensical hatred. In the end, it's just a game, I don't understand why certain people literally devote their lives to an athlete who doesn't even know that person exists. I love basketball, and sports in general, and I like watching/discussing with other level headed fans. But people like this just bring out the worst in people. It's disgusting really. So I've taken out my anger towards truly deserving lunatics like Beta Puppy/Albroz and may have inadvertently lumped other non-deserving fans into the same category. Let me be the first to extend the olive branch to real basketball fans on this forum, whether they be MJ or Kobe fans, Lakers or Cavaliers fans, etc.

So to the real fans on ISH, I say cheers :cheers:

Let's just put clowns like this on ignore, get them banned....

[bruceblitz]

Fisher >>>> Kobe

Kobe has never gotten out of round 1 without him and he never will thus Fisher > Kobe. And since neither have finals MVP's that's what we go by.

Dumb Ass

:confusedshrug: :roll: :roll: :roll: :confusedshrug:
See what type of responses people like Alpha Crack get when posting so much propaganda?

[DonDadda59]

Originally Posted by kgisbigticket

I am going to still this post from a knowledgeable poster on two other sites. This is how he explains why MJ is the GOAT.

Well let's look at some of the candidates first.

1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)

Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:


League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.

Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...ree-team_x.htm

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot....-all-time.html

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.

MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

Also consider

Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.


Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?




http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...vidual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

Why is Kobe Bryant ever so absent from lists like these?

I'll send a $500 money order to anyone who could logically come up with a valid counter argument against this :applause:

[juju151111]

is Derek Fisher a top 50 all time player like Pippen is?.........

Did derek fisher ever make the allstar team without Kobe?..NO..

Did Derek Fisher evermake the all defensive team without Kobe?...NO

Was Kobe win more then 1 playoff game without D - Fish?.....Yes!
Scottie didn't make a allstar team without MJ either. You still avoid the question. Explain wats a choker in a gm. Did cp3 choke against the spurs last year??

[Duncan21formvp]

Playoffs

Kobe Bryant
24.3 ppg, 44.5% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg

Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg


Vince's playoff numbers are much better than Kobe as is his PER.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

25. Vince Carter 21.40
26. Kobe Bryant 21.29
27. Allen Iverson 21.23


Iverson has 10 games of 40+ and in one playoffs alone had 6 games of 40+ points. In fact, Kobe only has 6 games of 40+ in his entire playoff career.

Kobe has 7 now.

[Ruslan`]

Kobe has 7 now.

Who cares? Iverson is better playoff performer than Kobe.