Prime Kobe vs. Prime Jordan

[OldSchoolBBall]

I want to put all this nonsensical "Kobe = Jordan" or "Kobe > Jordan" stuff to rest. Here's a taste of what will be coming; I will be adding to this topic as I have time to. To start with, I'll use Shaq's 3 year peak and Duncan's 3 year peak as an example. Most Laker/Kobe fans will agree that prime Shaq was significantly more dominant than prime Duncan, yet these same people don't realize (or don't want to admit) that Jordan's prime was actually even further beyond Kobe's prime than Shaq's was above Duncan's. Allow me to illustrate:


Shaq's 3 year best PER: 30.4 (+3.4 PER above Duncan)

Duncan's 3 year best PER: 27.0


Shaq's 3 year best EFF: 31.1 (+1.8 EFF above Duncan)

Duncan's 3 year best EFF: 29.3


Shaq's 3 year best Win Shares: 15.7 (equal to Duncan's)

Duncan's 3 year best Win Shares: 15.7


Shaq's 3 year best ORtg: 115.0 (+4.0 above Duncan's)

Duncan's 3 year best ORtg: 111.0


Now for Jordan and Kobe:


Jordan's 3 year best PER: 31.3 (+5.5 PER above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best PER: 25.8


Jordan's 3 year best EFF: 35.6 (+10.7 EFF above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best EFF: 24.9


Jordan's 3 year best Win Shares: 19.4 (+5.1 above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best Win Shares: 14.3


Jordan's 3 year best ORtg: 123.0 (+8.3 above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best ORtg: 114.7



As you can see, Jordan's edge over Kobe in each category (and many others I haven't posted) is substantially larger than (sometimes over twice as large as) prime Shaq's advantage over prime Duncan. Furthermore, Duncan's defensive edge over Shaq makes their comparison closer than the numbers imply, whereas Jordan was a much more impactful defender than Kobe (he won DPOY, finished second in DPOY voting two other times, and finished top 5 for a nine year stretch), so his edge only increases above what is shown by the numbers.

Yet despite all this and more, you have clowns trying to posit equivalency between the two players. Why? Because they're both 6'6" and Kobe copied a ton of MJ's moves? Big deal. There's no comparison between them in terms of impact on the court. Period. There's more coming.

[Thunderstruck]

I want to put all this nonsensical "Kobe = Jordan" or "Kobe > Jordan" stuff to rest. Here's a taste of what will be coming; I will be adding to this topic as I have time to. To start with, I'll use Shaq's 3 year peak and Duncan's 3 year peak as an example. Most Laker/Kobe fans will agree that prime Shaq was significantly more dominant than prime Duncan, yet these same people don't realize (or don't want to admit) that Jordan's prime was actually even further beyond Kobe's prime than Shaq's was above Duncan's. Allow me to illustrate:


Shaq's 3 year best PER: 30.4 (+3.4 PER above Duncan)

Duncan's 3 year best PER: 27.0


Shaq's 3 year best EFF: 31.1 (+1.8 EFF above Duncan)

Duncan's 3 year best EFF: 29.3


Shaq's 3 year best Win Shares: 15.7 (equal to Duncan's)

Duncan's 3 year best Win Shares: 15.7


Shaq's 3 year best ORtg: 115.0 (+4.0 above Duncan's)

Duncan's 3 year best ORtg: 111.0


Now for Jordan and Kobe:


Jordan's 3 year best PER: 31.3 (+5.5 PER above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best PER: 25.8


Jordan's 3 year best EFF: 35.6 (+10.7 EFF above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best EFF: 24.9


Jordan's best 3 year Win Shares: 19.4 (+5.1 above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best Win Shares: 14.3


Jordan's best 3 year ORtg: 123.0 (+8.3 above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best ORtg: 114.7



As you can see, Jordan's edge over Kobe in each category (and many others I haven't posted) is substantially larger than (sometimes over twice as large as) prime Shaq's advantage over prime Duncan. Furthermore, Duncan's defensive edge over Shaq makes their comparison closer than the numbers imply, whereas Jordan was a much more impactful defender than Kobe (he won DPOY, finished second in DPOY voting two other times, and finished top 5 for a none year stretch), so his edge only increases above what is shown by the numbers.

Yet despite all this and more, you have clowns trying to posit equivalency between the two players. Why? Because they're both 6'6" and Kobe copied a ton of MJ's moves? Big deal. There's no comparison between them in terms of impact on the court. Period. There's more coming.

but but but, it was a weak era...:rolleyes:

[OldSchoolBBall]

but but but, it was a weak era...

Unfortunately for some, numbers like PER, ORtg, and Win Shares are league-independent, since you're being compared to your own peers. Guys like CP3 and Lebron prove that you can have a high ORtg/PER/Win Shares as a superstar in today's league, and certainly no one (who's sane) would make the case that they're as good as Jordan was. Just because Kobe doesn't have a stellar ORtg (or PER, or EFF or Win Shares, or Player Wins, or Birdies, or AV rating etc.) doesn't mean that it's not possible, only that Kobe hasn't done so. This thought process illustrates why he's overrated by some.

My aim in creating this thread is not to bash Kobe. He's a fantastic player -- I have him between 16-21 all-time right now, and he'll likely finish his career in the top 9-14 range. He's been a top 2-3 player for the past 4 seasons and a top 5-6 player since 2001. But he isn't Jordan, nor is he particularly close. It's time for some people to realize that.

[Maniak]

I agree.

Dominoes pizza is the best!

[The Magic Man]

What the hell makes you think you have the power and strength to put a rest to something that has brewed and simmered so long? There are like 50 threads a day about this and you think yours will be the end all? I laugh at you sir. Ha ha ha he ho ha ho.

[bruceblitz]

I want to put all this nonsensical "Kobe = Jordan" or "Kobe > Jordan" stuff to rest. Here's a taste of what will be coming; I will be adding to this topic as I have time to. To start with, I'll use Shaq's 3 year peak and Duncan's 3 year peak as an example. Most Laker/Kobe fans will agree that prime Shaq was significantly more dominant than prime Duncan, yet these same people don't realize (or don't want to admit) that Jordan's prime was actually even further beyond Kobe's prime than Shaq's was above Duncan's. Allow me to illustrate:


Shaq's 3 year best PER: 30.4 (+3.4 PER above Duncan)

Duncan's 3 year best PER: 27.0


Shaq's 3 year best EFF: 31.1 (+1.8 EFF above Duncan)

Duncan's 3 year best EFF: 29.3


Shaq's 3 year best Win Shares: 15.7 (equal to Duncan's)

Duncan's 3 year best Win Shares: 15.7


Shaq's 3 year best ORtg: 115.0 (+4.0 above Duncan's)

Duncan's 3 year best ORtg: 111.0


Now for Jordan and Kobe:


Jordan's 3 year best PER: 31.3 (+5.5 PER above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best PER: 25.8


Jordan's 3 year best EFF: 35.6 (+10.7 EFF above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best EFF: 24.9


Jordan's 3 year best Win Shares: 19.4 (+5.1 above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best Win Shares: 14.3


Jordan's 3 year best ORtg: 123.0 (+8.3 above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best ORtg: 114.7



As you can see, Jordan's edge over Kobe in each category (and many others I haven't posted) is substantially larger than (sometimes over twice as large as) prime Shaq's advantage over prime Duncan. Furthermore, Duncan's defensive edge over Shaq makes their comparison closer than the numbers imply, whereas Jordan was a much more impactful defender than Kobe (he won DPOY, finished second in DPOY voting two other times, and finished top 5 for a none year stretch), so his edge only increases above what is shown by the numbers.

Yet despite all this and more, you have clowns trying to posit equivalency between the two players. Why? Because they're both 6'6" and Kobe copied a ton of MJ's moves? Big deal. There's no comparison between them in terms of impact on the court. Period. There's more coming.


Jordan was better than Kobe, prime vs prime, it's not even close really. I'm not even gonna post my opinion past that. I don't even see the need to prove my opinion past that.

Jordan is the greatest of all time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCRre3nX88g

[OldSchoolBBall]

What the hell makes you think you have the power and strength to put a rest to something that has brewed and simmered so long? There are like 50 threads a day about this and you think yours will be the end all? I laugh at you sir. Ha ha ha he ho ha ho.

My point is that the "brewing" and "simmering" is perpetuated by zealous Laker/Kobe fans and not by rational people. You, sporting a Laker avatar and with a history of questionable posts regarding Jordan, are undoubtedly a member of the former group. If you have anything substantive to add in regard to the original post, feel free. Until then, I ha ha ha and ho ho ho at you too. Good day, sir.

[Al Thornton]

I agree.

Dominoes pizza is the best!

HEY! **** off.

http://www.tustinmagazine.com/Round-Table-Logo.jpg

/thread :D

[Maniak]

Never heard of it. Where is it located? Is it a chain? Whats their specialty pizza?

[KenneBell]

I agree.

Dominoes pizza is the best!
But what about Pizza Hut?

[Maniak]

But what about Pizza Hut?
Meh, never been much of a pizza hut fan myself...

[bruceblitz]

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2540/sameoldcrap8iz.jpg

I give the thread 5*'s because the poster brought his homework to the table, he's obviously sick of the few Kobe fans left who overrate him, but, that being said, I'm sick of it guys. I mean who isn't? Anyone who thinks Kobe is better than MJ was is a dumb ass fan boy.

[zay_24]

Kobe is a more versatile player, better defender,passer LEADER.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Stop mucking up my topic, people. Thanks.

[The Magic Man]

My point is that the "brewing" and "simmering" is perpetuated by zealous Laker/Kobe fans and not by rational people. You, sporting a Laker avatar and with a history of questionable posts regarding Jordan, are undoubtedly a member of the former group. If you have anything substantive to add in regard to the original post, feel free. Until then, I ha ha ha and ho ho ho at you too. Good day, sir.


My good man, you blatantly unmask your prejudice against any person of the Laker ilth. When have I ever said anything questionable about Mr. Jordan? Ahhhh, but I am a Laker fan so I must not like Michael Jordan. Do you not consider yourself a zealous MJ fan? Why must you create a scene just to discuss the greatness of MJ. MJ, a Hall of Fame player. NBA Champion. The Greatest. We all know this. You aren't coming to the table with groundbreaking information. You are using the same dry arguments mixed with fairytale PER and EFF and OPP and NWA stats. You sir are a creeton. And if you don't apologise to me for your lack of repect and misplaced judgement, I will be forced to slap you with a glove and challenge you to a dual. I'm waiting.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe is a more versatile player, better defender,passer LEADER.

Lotsa statements there, no evidence. LOL @ better leader and defender, btw. Wow. :oldlol: The level of delusion one has to be laboring under to believe that makes my head hurt. 24 is apparently your IQ as well.

[bruceblitz]

Kobe is a more versatile player, better defender,passer LEADER.
According to what?

[StroShow4]

Stop mucking up my topic, people. Thanks.

This is what happens when you make a Kobe vs. Jordan thread. My advice: Don't make them.

[zay_24]

LOL!!!
Atleast Kobe can lead his team to a winning record without an allstar LOL

[KenneBell]

Meh, never been much of a pizza hut fan myself...
You're crazy. If Mike Da God made pizza, it's what he would make.

[TheAnchorman]

LOL!!!
Atleast Kobe can lead his team to a winning record without an allstar LOL
.....

Retard.

[bruceblitz]

LOL!!!
Atleast Kobe can lead his team to a winning record without an allstar LOL



Jordan is to basketball what Ali was to boxing, what Babe Ruth was to baseball, what Michael Phelps is to swimming and what Tiger Woods is to golf.

Ah well, let me go through all this again

[OldSchoolBBall]

My good man, you blatantly unmask your prejudice against any person of the Laker ilth. When have I ever said anything questionable about Mr. Jordan? Ahhhh, but I am a Laker fan so I must not like Michael Jordan. Do you not consider yourself a zealous MJ fan? Why must you create a scene just to discuss the greatness of MJ. MJ, a Hall of Fame player. NBA Champion. The Greatest. We all know this. You aren't coming to the table with groundbreaking information. You are using the same dry arguments mixed with fairytale PER and EFF and OPP and NWA stats. You sir are a creeton. And if you don't apologise to me for your lack of repect and misplaced judgement, I will be forced to slap you with a glove and challenge you to a dual. I'm waiting.

Ilk. Duel. Cretin.

As to your question, when you first came on the board a month or so ago, you made several pretty biased posts about Jordan. Fortunately for you, this board lacks a search feature. So no, it wasn't just about the Laker avatar, though that's corroborating evidence. :D

As for why I created the topic (which I've never done before), it's because there have been a ton of anti-Jordan posts/threads recently.

[bruceblitz]

LOL!!!
Atleast Kobe can lead his team to a winning record without an allstar LOL


Magic Johnson calls Michael Jordan the "best ever" in 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jAbDdCz49Y

Magic Johnson: "sometimes the Bulls rely on Michael too much" basically says the Lakers of the 80's had "so many more weapons than the Bulls".

lol owned

Why is Michael Jordan the best ever? This video explains:
David Stern calls Jordan the standard barrier
Dr J calls Jordan the best basketball player ever seen
Jerry West calls Jordan best ever and flawless also calls him Superman. Jerry West says Jordan emotionally destroys players and takes their courage away
Elgin Baylor calls Michael Jordan impossible to defend
Magic Johnson says the only weakness to Jordan is if he shows up and only wants to score 30 instead of 50 (being sarcastic)
Bob Cousy calls Jordan the mona lisa of basketball, says Jordan is the best basketball player he's ever seen perform
Chuck Daly also makes reference to Jordan being the best ever and the ultimate competitor.
Magic Johnson: "I thought I was the most competitive person I ever knew, until I met Michael"

Magic Johnson "there wont ever be another Michael Jordan, that's for sure"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E

Scottie Pippen calls Jordan the greatest player ever seen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKCQKoklDdw


:hammertime:
what do those guys know though?

[amfirst]

Everybody knows Kobe is better than Jordan... :lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL!!!
Atleast Kobe can lead his team to a winning record without an allstar LOL

That's funny, because I could have sworn that Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins in 1988 without another all-star on the team.

[zay_24]

Let me tell you something you little **** sucking *****, you don't know a damn thing about Michael Jordan's career, all you know is that you are in love with Kobe because you have what is known as a friggin man crush.

Jordan is to basketball what Ali was to boxing, what Babe Ruth was to baseball, what Michael Phelps is to swimming and what Tiger Woods is to golf.

Ah well, let me go through all this again for another moron...
LOL!!
How old are you, 15?
What do you know about jordan cuz.

[bruceblitz]

LOL!!
How old are you, 15?
What do you know about jordan cuz.


I am going to still this post from a knowledgeable poster on two other sites. This is how he explains why MJ is the GOAT.

Well let's look at some of the candidates first.

1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)

Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:


League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2- Bird
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan

Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan

So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.

Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.

Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well

TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

http://motownsportsrevival.blogspot.com/2006/12/top-50-basketball-players-of-all-time.html

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.

MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.

Also consider

Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.


Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?




http://www.answers.com/topic/nba-records

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined. But MJ was more consistent and holds records as well such as:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

As far as the playoffs go, here are a few things that stuck out in my mind:

Playoffs
Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record. What does that mean, well he was the only superstar to never lose a series in which his team was considered the favorite and better team. All the other legends lost series.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

Why is Kobe Bryant ever so absent from lists like these?


Pippen wasn't a top 50 player in 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 nor 1993. If he was a top 50 player it didn't happen until 1996 after they won their 4th title.

Don't be dumb.

So that means Wade is much better than Kobe since as a rookie Wade led his team to round 2 with Odom and Butler while when Kobe had them he didn't make the playoffs.

I'll wait for you to dispute all this. Which you can't.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Abraham Lincoln]

LOL!!
How old are you, 15?
What do you know about jordan cuz.
Sir Alborz, if thou may entertain us wise men, who be the better rebounder. Kobe Bryant or Charles Barkley?

[bruceblitz]

Sir Alborz, if thou may entertain us wise men, who be the better rebounder. Kobe Bryant or Charles Barkley?

lol thouest maketh me laugheth :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL!!
How old are you, 15?
What do you know about jordan cuz.

You have to be about 15 yourself if you honestly believe that Kobe is more versatile, a better defender, and a better leader than Jordan. I mean, at least "versatility" is a somewhat nebulous concept, so even someone of your limited faculties could probably cobble together some porous argument that sorta kinda supports the assertion -- but better defender? Really? :oldlol:

[zay_24]

bruceblitz is a jordan **** sucker, but it's funny because he's only 15 years old:wtf:

[zay_24]

You have to be about 15 yourself if you honestly believe that Kobe is more versatile, a better defender, and a better leader than Jordan. I mean, at least "versatility" is a somewhat nebulous concept, so even someone of your limited faculties could probably cobble together some porous argument that sorta kinda supports the assertion -- but better defender? Really? :oldlol:
No dummy,
since you put words in my mouth, I'm not responding and Imma put you on my ignore list:rockon:

[Abraham Lincoln]

lol thouest maketh me laugheth :oldlol:
My fellow wise man, thou shan't be drifted away into the sea of leeches, thou must rise up and become a noble wise man. If thou notices an ignorant character like Alborz, the preferable course of action would be to befriend the young lad, then educate him. In the words of the great Abraham Lincoln, "I destroy my enemes when I make friends of them." Thou must also understand the intense preparation required in advance to handle such unstable minds, thou must take the Honest Abe route, and prepare thy task of tree chopping by sharpening the axe. My best wishes.

[bruceblitz]

bruceblitz is a jordan **** sucker, but it's funny because he's only 15 years old:wtf:
Yes, calling a 30+ year old 15, while sucking Kobe's "basket"ball sack, it's intelligent.

http://www.youtube.com/bruceblitzconfession

read the age on the left side of one of my youtube pages

[Alpha Wolf]

I guess Jordan.....don't forget about the time he led Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck and Tweety to victory in Space Jam!!!

[OldSchoolBBall]

No dummy,
since you put words in my mouth, I'm not responding and Imma put you on my ignore list:rockon:

What words did I put in your mouth? This is what you said:


Kobe is a more versatile player, better defender,passer LEADER.

So?

[bruceblitz]

I guess Jordan.....don't forget about the time he led Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck and Tweety to victory in Space Jam!!!

they still haven't banned this idiot, leaving this guy on ISH is proof that the mods here have a weird sense of humor.

[Duncan21formvp]

You can't compare a guy with no top 50 finals performances and a top 10 worst finals performance to a guy who has 5 top 15 finals performances and 6 top 26 finals performances.

Nor can you compare a guy with 1 games of 50+ in the playoffs to a guy with 8 games of 50+ in the playoffs. Nor can you compare a guy with 6 total games of 40+ in the playoffs with a guy who has 38 games of 40+ in the playoffs.

Not to mention one player's numbers goes up from season to playoffs to finals while one players numbers goes down from season to playoffs to finals.

[The Riddler]

I guess Jordan.....don't forget about the time he led Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck and Tweety to victory in Space Jam!!!

Even though this character is a tiny jackass, that was a rather funny comment.:oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

You can't compare a guy with no top 50 finals performances and a top 10 worst finals performance to a guy who has 5 top 15 finals performances and 6 top 26 finals performances.

Nor can you compare a guy with 1 games of 50+ in the playoffs to a guy with 8 games of 50+ in the playoffs. Nor can you compare a guy with 6 total games of 40+ in the playoffs with a guy who has 38 games of 40+ in the playoffs.

Not to mention one player's numbers goes up from season to playoffs to finals while one players numbers goes down from season to playoffs to finals.

Also, 76% of Jordan's 50+ point games came against winning teams and 21% of Kobe's 50+ point games have come against teams with winning records.

winning = above 50%

[LA_Showtime]

But what about Pizza Hut?

SBarros FTW

[DonDadda59]

I guess Jordan.....don't forget about the time he led Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck and Tweety to victory in Space Jam!!!

Those space monsters were bigger, stronger, and more athletic than any player Kobe faces today. Space Jam defense>>>>00's defense. I'm coming out with a youtube video titled "MJ vs Space Jam Zone", be on the lookout :roll:

[DonDadda59]

My fellow wise man, thou shan't be drifted away into the sea of leeches, thou must rise up and become a noble wise man. If thou notices an ignorant character like Alborz, the preferable course of action would be to befriend the young lad, then educate him. In the words of the great Abraham Lincoln, "I destroy my enemes when I make friends of them." Thou must also understand the intense preparation required in advance to handle such unstable minds, thou must take the Honest Abe route, and prepare thy task of tree chopping by sharpening the axe. My best wishes.

You may be nuttier than bat ****, but you sir are the best damned poster on ISH. :cheers:

[Abraham Lincoln]

OldSchoolBBall, I shall commend thou for the effort put forth, but I hope it was not with intent of reading reasonable answers. Thou already knows what these characters are like. Nothing short of 10 years passing after the retirement of their diety will realty come true in their minds. Alas, we must continue to act as noble wise men and take the high road out, whlst not neglecting the neccesary preparation required in advance to educate these young lads.

[Abraham Lincoln]

You may be nuttier than bat ****, but you sir are the best damned poster on ISH. :cheers:
Alas, as our case is new, we must think and act anew. We shan't fllatter ourselves prior to completing the task at hand. After the young lads are educated and stable, then the internet ranks and popularity may follow. Although, I am not in preference of such action. In the words of the great Abraham Lincoln, "Avoid popularity if you would like peace."

[juju151111]

I guess Jordan.....don't forget about the time he led Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck and Tweety to victory in Space Jam!!!
Even tho you don't know crap about BB that was funny.:lol

[Alpha Wolf]

Those space monsters were bigger, stronger, and more athletic than any player Kobe faces today. Space Jam defense>>>>00's defense. I'm coming out with a youtube video titled "MJ vs Space Jam Zone", be on the lookout :roll:


:lol :roll: that was funny



seriously though

2008 Celtics >>>



Magic was out of his prime in 1991. Worthy was injured but played anyway.

Portland and Seattle were two of the worst teams in NBA Finals history, definitely the two worst teams to reach the finals up to that time. Drexler was a soft player, and Shawn Kemp was one of the most overrated players in NBA history...

The 1991 Lakers were 2nd in the NBA in defense (the 2008 Celtics were also 2nd in defense, after Detroit)...

Here are the defensive rankings of Jordan's finals opponents:


1991 Lakers - 2nd in defense (27 teams)
1992 Blazers - 13th in defense
1993 Suns - 18th in defense
1996 Sonics - 8th in defense (29 teams)
1997 Jazz - 8th in defense
1998 Jazz - 12th in defense

Average rank: 10th

Compared to:

2008 Celtics - 2nd in defense (30 teams)


Jordan faced one defense in the finals that was comparable to this year's Celtic defense...well, sort of comparable.

1991 Lakers - gave up 99.6 ppg, second to Detroit's 96.8

2008 Celtics - gave up 90.3 ppg, second to Detroit's 90.1.

Jordan never faced a defense as good as this year's Celtic defense....except maybe when he played the Piston teams of the late 80s... The Knick defense was almost as good.

The Western Conference was known as an offensive conference even in those days... usually, the toughest defenses Jordan faced were in the Eastern Conference playoffs, prior to reaching the finals, with teams like the Pistons, Knicks and, early in his career, the Celtics.

The way the Celtics were playing last year, they would go 6-0 against the teams that the Bulls faced. They would probably sweep most of those teams.

[juju151111]

:lol :roll: that was funny



seriously though

2008 Celtics >>>



Magic out of his prime in 1991. Worthy was injured but played anyway.

Portland and Seattle were two of the worst teams in NBA Finals history, definitely the two worst teams to reach the finals up to that time. Drexler was a soft player, and Shawn Kemp was one of the most overrated players in NBA history...

The 1991 Lakers were 2nd in the NBA in defense (the 2008 Celtics were also 2nd in defense, after Detroit)...

Here are the defensive rankings of Jordan's finals opponents:


1991 Lakers - 2nd in defense (27 teams)
1992 Blazers - 13th in defense
1993 Suns - 18th in defense
1996 Sonics - 8th in defense (29 teams)
1997 Jazz - 8th in defense
1998 Jazz - 12th in defense

Average rank: 10th

Compared to:

2008 Celtics - 2nd in defense (30 teams)


Jordan faced one defense in the finals that was comparable to this year's Celtic defense...well, sort of comparable.

1991 Lakers - gave up 99.6 ppg, second to Detroit's 96.8

2008 Celtics - gave up 90.3 ppg, second to Detroit's 90.1.

Jordan never faced a defense as good as this year's Celtic defense....except maybe when he played the Piston teams of the late 80s... The Knick defense was almost as good.

The Western Conference was known as an offensive conference even in those days... usually, the toughest defenses Jordan faced were in the Eastern Conference playoffs, prior to reaching the finals, with teams like the Pistons, Knicks and, early in his career, the Celtics.

The way the Celtics were playing last year, they would go 6-0 against the teams that the Bulls faced. They would probably sweep most of those teams.
He won tho and Magic wasn't washed up in 91 idiot. Go look at his stats. You still have not answered the question. Wat do you consider choking in a gm?

[bruceblitz]

我感到厌倦母亲他妈的科比球迷认为科比谁是上帝，他们想要的生活他妈的吸了他的生命迪克。迈克尔乔丹是有史 以来最优秀的和科比甚至没有进入前15破获尚未所有时间。我的意思是他妈的他0决赛最有价值球员奖，只有一 个联赛最有价值层奖，和母亲笨蛋有小便穷人投篮命中率时，实际看的事实，他从来没有打出高于百分之四十八为 一个单一的季节他的职业生涯。我无法了解的人可以如此的爱和高估。

and that's the bottom line.

[D-Rose]

I agree.

Dominoes pizza is the best!
:oldlol: :cheers:

[bruceblitz]

Jordan never faced a defense as good as this year's Celtic defense....except maybe when he played the Piston teams of the late 80s... The Knick defense was almost as good.


When defending a superstar:
95-96 Sonics defense > 08 Celtics defense under these soft ass rules
proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc

in fact, the 08 Celtics are in the category of these defenses when we talk about defending a superstar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8

Kobe Bryant would fold if he was forced to face this type of fierce competition day in and day out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

Notice in these 3 videos how the 08 Celtics defense gives up all kinds of layups to players who will never even sniff an all star game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc

FACT: Kobe Bryant has choked in over 10 NBA finals games
FACT: Kobe Bryant has let games and series slip away without making an impact
FACT: Kobe Bryant has missed more game winning attempts than anyone in NBA history
FACT: Kobe Bryant has missed more game winning attempts from 2004-2009 than Jordan did in his entire career.
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
quote from that link, (03-09)
...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!

42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups


The amount of points your team gives up to another team, it has nothing to do with how good a team can defend 1 player. The main stat in looking at stopping a player like LeBron or Jordan is "points in the paint". I guarantee you alpha dummy can't even find a website that reports points in the paint from the Jordan era. Today's teams average giving up 42.7 points in the paint per game, while in the Jordan era the league average was anywhere from 32.5 to 37.8 points in the paint, per game on a year to year basis. It's easier to get to the basket today. Bottom line. The other bottom line is no team defense ever was able to stop MJ.

[bruceblitz]

He won tho and Magic wasn't washed up in 91 idiot. Go look at his stats. You still have not answered the question. Wat do you consider choking in a gm?

:oldlol: :cheers: :oldlol:

[Alpha Wolf]

Bruce Blitz = 32 year Fake "Midget" Wrestler.



:roll:

[bruceblitz]

Bruce, I have no comeback so I'm gonna smoke some more *****

It's not good for you, I would put that pipe down.

[Alpha Wolf]

It's not good for you, I would put that pipe down.


anyways hows the Fake Wrestling going........maybe you'll get a gig now that "Midget wrestling" is starting to get popular again.....aren't you like 5'4"?.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I love how no one even tried to address the original post, but idiots like Alpha Wolf have to come up with all this sophistry to try and convince people that it's so close between Kobe and Jordan. :oldlol:

The gap between prime Jordan and Kobe was bigger than between prime Shaq and Duncan. Yet no one would ever suggest that prime Duncan was better or more dominant than prime Shaq the way they do for Kobe. Go figure. That's real "media fabrication" for you. :oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

anyways hows the Fake Wrestling going........maybe you'll get a gig now that "Midget wrestling" is starting to get popular again.....aren't you like 5'4"?.

The first guy in this video is 5'10", I'm 6'1", you can see how I tower over him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjqEGTteQ8

nice try though. Discredit the messenger rather than reading the message. Classic case of psychotic denial.

[bruceblitz]

I love how no one even tried to address the original post, but idiots like Alpha Wolf have to come up with all this sophistry to try and convince people that it's so close between Kobe and Jordan. :oldlol:

The gap between prime Jordan and Kobe was bigger than between prime Shaq and Duncan. Yet no one would ever suggest that prime Duncan was better or more dominant than prime Shaq the way they do for Kobe.

That's this guy's scheme of propaganda. It's all a game of diminishing and diverting from the facts. Classic propaganda.

[Da_Realist]

Prime Kobe vs Prime Jordan? :oldlol: That's laughably funny. Why not make it more interesting?

2001 Kobe vs 1987 Jordan

or

Today's Kobe vs 1997 Jordan?

[DonDadda59]

:lol :roll: that was funny



seriously though

2008 Celtics >>>



Magic was out of his prime in 1991. Worthy was injured but played anyway.

Portland and Seattle were two of the worst teams in NBA Finals history, definitely the two worst teams to reach the finals up to that time. Drexler was a soft player, and Shawn Kemp was one of the most overrated players in NBA history...

The 1991 Lakers were 2nd in the NBA in defense (the 2008 Celtics were also 2nd in defense, after Detroit)...

Here are the defensive rankings of Jordan's finals opponents:


1991 Lakers - 2nd in defense (27 teams)
1992 Blazers - 13th in defense
1993 Suns - 18th in defense
1996 Sonics - 8th in defense (29 teams)
1997 Jazz - 8th in defense
1998 Jazz - 12th in defense

Average rank: 10th

Compared to:

2008 Celtics - 2nd in defense (30 teams)


Jordan faced one defense in the finals that was comparable to this year's Celtic defense...well, sort of comparable.

1991 Lakers - gave up 99.6 ppg, second to Detroit's 96.8

2008 Celtics - gave up 90.3 ppg, second to Detroit's 90.1.

Jordan never faced a defense as good as this year's Celtic defense....except maybe when he played the Piston teams of the late 80s... The Knick defense was almost as good.

The Western Conference was known as an offensive conference even in those days... usually, the toughest defenses Jordan faced were in the Eastern Conference playoffs, prior to reaching the finals, with teams like the Pistons, Knicks and, early in his career, the Celtics.

The way the Celtics were playing last year, they would go 6-0 against the teams that the Bulls faced. They would probably sweep most of those teams.


This is where your flawed logic and lack of understanding of the game clearly shows itself. But stick around, I'm giving lessons free of charge...

You list the PA/gm statistics of teams but neglect other factors such as pace, defensive efficiency, defensive rating, and the rules of the era said teams played under. If you're going solely on PA/gm then I can say the '95-'96 Cavaliers>'07-'08 Celtics because Cle gave up only 88.5 Pts/gm compared to 90.3/gm for the Celtics. But if you look closer you'll see that they played at a grinding pace (slowest in the league that year) and their rating was 11th vs 1st for the Celtics whose pace was 19th in the league. So it goes deeper than just selective stats.

Now if you go even further in researching before posting, you'll see that the Cavs had a better defensive rating and allowed fewer pts/gm than the Celtics did in last year's playoffs. The Celts struggled through 2 straight 7 game series vs subpar competition, and Lebron was able to score 45 Pts against them in the deciding 7th game. The fact is the Celtics weren't allowed to practice 'The Jordan rules' which is to say they didn't have the luxury of the rules being on their side- allowing them to manhandle the opposing team's superstar and physically take him out of the game like the teams starting with the Bad Boy Pistons did. Kobe's failure against certain teams is not a testament to how great they are defensively, likewise Jordan enormous success against superior defensive squads is not an indication of how 'weak' the teams or the era was.

[Da_Realist]

This is where your flawed logic and lack of understanding of the game clearly shows itself. But stick around, I'm giving lessons free of charge...

You list the PA/gm statistics of teams but neglect other factors such as pace, defensive efficiency, defensive rating, and the rules of the era said teams played under. If you're going solely on PA/gm then I can say the '95-'96 Cavaliers>'07-'08 Celtics because Cle gave up only 88.5 Pts/gm compared to 90.3/gm for the Celtics. But if you look closer you'll see that they played at a grinding pace (slowest in the league that year) and their rating was 11th vs 1st for the Celtics whose pace was 19th in the league. So it goes deeper than just selective stats.

Now if you go even further in researching before posting, you'll see that the Cavs had a better defensive rating and allowed fewer pts/gm than the Celtics did in last year's playoffs. The Celts struggled through 2 straight 7 game series vs subpar competition, and Lebron was able to score 45 Pts against them in the deciding 7th game. The fact is the Celtics weren't allowed to practice 'The Jordan rules' which is to say they didn't have the luxury of the rules being on their side- allowing them to manhandle the opposing team's superstar and physically take him out of the game like the teams starting with the Bad Boy Pistons did. Kobe's failure against certain teams is not a testament to how great they are defensively, likewise Jordan enormous success against superior defensive squads is not an indication of how 'weak' the teams or the era was.

Great post, but you're wasting your time. He doesn't like context because it destroys his agenda. So he only wants to talk about pure numbers -- only the numbers that fit his agenda, of course.

[DonDadda59]

Great post, but you're wasting your time. He doesn't like context because it destroys his agenda. So he only wants to talk about pure numbers -- only the numbers that fit his agenda, of course.

I realize this, but others are reading post on this thread and like Abraham Lincoln said, we must educate the misinformed youth :oldlol:. Plus he doesn't have a comeback so I doubt he'll post here again, unless it's a copy and paste job of one of his 'arguments' that's already been thoroughly ripped to shreds.

[Flamboyant]

Actually this thread deserves nothing but mocking, as I wouldn't want to find my way in conversation when bruceblitz and AlphaWolf are going at each other, but since there are people who actually believe that Kobe is better, and I am one of them, I'll try to give a damn.


...

I have always considered Shaq better than Duncan (which argument is close), even before I heard about this stats (I heard about PER a couple of years ago, and the others only this or last season, and some of them, I still don't know what they are). Their numbers are not the sole reason to say Shaq>>Duncan. It's what they are capable of doing. Duncan even when he was having better seasons than Shaq, didn't give me the impression of dominance that Shaq did. If you have watched NBA (Lakers in particular) in 2000, you'd get the impression that you can put Shaq in the worst team of the League, and they'd battle for the title, which cannot be said for any player from 80s to present (MJ included). Anyone in his own sane mind would consider Shaq the most dominant player of at least the last 30 years.
In fact that 61/23 game of Shaq weighs much more in the argument, which is in Kobe's favor on the second comparison.

Now I don't know much about the other stats, but it's easier to get higher PER if you play in a more defensive minded, slow paced team, and you pretty much dominate the whole offense. Thats why guys like LBJ, and CP3 drop high PER numbers. I'd ask you a question, and would like to hear your answer, even though I know what your honest answer is.

If LeBrons top 3 PER years are better than Jordans would you consider him better than MJ?

Or would you consider CP3 better than Magic?

Basketball is played on game by game basis. At the end of the day there are 3 things which I use in measuring the greatness. In order they are:
1. Game performances
2. Clutch performances
3. Team success (not necessarily just the titles)

And there is a reason why so many times you'll see groupies from each side saying something like "lol, so I guess Horry is beter than Jordan/Kobe :oldlol: ", everytime something in contrast to their point is said. The truth is Horry has 7 rings, and all of those rings are 100 percent legit. So why is he not considered among top100 players of all time. He has the team success, and I know everyone will admit he has the clutch performances. But those game performances I put in the #1 are what define you as a player in the first place. Yes, the ones that haters love to go like "But Kobe is da GOAT, cuz he scored 81 on the RAPTORS". You haters are not located in a different point in space, I have a friend who cried after he heard about that game.

And it's not just the 81 point game, but also the game he outscored the whole opponent team (actually it doesn't get any better than this), the 50+ streak, and all other freakish scoring night. Sure MJ had amazing performances as well, but Kobe has the edge in here, at least in my eyes.

Kobe IMO is also the better clutch player (inarguably more complete).

And his 3 rings are 100% legit as well. Just because he didn't get any Finals MVPs, and you youngsters who love to act your age have not watched his title run, it doesn't mean that his rings are not legit. Just so you know, in 00 the Lakers blew a 3-1 lead against the Blazers and in game 7 when Portland had a huge lead, it was Kobe who put his team on his back, and bailed them out. NOT SHAQ. And anyone who has watched the 01 playoffs, knows that Kobe was the MVP of the actual finals, the Spurs series.

Three quick notes in the end:

1. Anyone who is a fan of the sport, not of one certain player from the past, would tell you that today the baasketball is better than it ever was before. It doesn't necessarily mean that whoever is the best today is the best ever, but you guys are trying to create silly arguments. It's like people who think say Wilt is the Goat calling 60s the best era. I'm not trying to infamously call past eras "watered down", sure they were high level, but the game always keeps improving. And it has improved a lot since MJs glory days.

2. Celtics 08 are the GOAT defensive team.

3. Kobe is a better defender than MJ. No supersar in league history, who carries his teams scoring load has spent more time on defending opponent teams best players than Kobe. And he has always done a good job.

[TheGreatDeraj]

First off, I am too young to have ever watched Jordan play. However, I do have one thing to say about Jordan vs Kobe.

Stop the player comparisons. It's ridiculous. The only way you'd be able to compare to players is if they had the same teammates, playing the same teams, in the same era, with the same rules. Basketball just isn't a sport where you can compare players, especially from different eras. There are too many changing variables. The best you can do is watch both players, determine who you believe to be the best, and agree to disagree with those who you don't see eye to eye with. It's not as if you're going to change the other persons mind anyways, especially considering all the differing variables between the two players and the fact that everyone has a different definition of better.

[bruceblitz]

Actually this thread deserves nothing but mocking, as I wouldn't want to find my way in conversation when bruceblitz and AlphaWolf are going at each other, but since there are people who actually believe that Kobe is better, and I am one of them, I'll try to give a damn.



I have always considered Shaq better than Duncan (which argument is close), even before I heard about this stats (I heard about PER a couple of years ago, and the others only this or last season, and some of them, I still don't know what they are). Their numbers are not the sole reason to say Shaq>>Duncan. It's what they are capable of doing. Duncan even when he was having better seasons than Shaq, didn't give me the impression of dominance that Shaq did. If you have watched NBA (Lakers in particular) in 2000, you'd get the impression that you can put Shaq in the worst team of the League, and they'd battle for the title, which cannot be said for any player from 80s to present (MJ included). Anyone in his own sane mind would consider Shaq the most dominant player of at least the last 30 years.
In fact that 61/23 game of Shaq weighs much more in the argument, which is in Kobe's favor on the second comparison.

Now I don't know much about the other stats, but it's easier to get higher PER if you play in a more defensive minded, slow paced team, and you pretty much dominate the whole offense. Thats why guys like LBJ, and CP3 drop high PER numbers. I'd ask you a question, and would like to hear your answer, even though I know what your honest answer is.

If LeBrons top 3 PER years are better than Jordans would you consider him better than MJ?

Or would you consider CP3 better than Magic?

Basketball is played on game by game basis. At the end of the day there are 3 things which I use in measuring the greatness. In order they are:
1. Game performances
2. Clutch performances
3. Team success (not necessarily just the titles)

And there is a reason why so many times you'll see groupies from each side saying something like "lol, so I guess Horry is beter than Jordan/Kobe :oldlol: ", everytime something in contrast to their point is said. The truth is Horry has 7 rings, and all of those rings are 100 percent legit. So why is he not considered among top100 players of all time. He has the team success, and I know everyone will admit he has the clutch performances. But those game performances I put in the #1 are what define you as a player in the first place. Yes, the ones that haters love to go like "But Kobe is da GOAT, cuz he scored 81 on the RAPTORS". You haters are not located in a different point in space, I have a friend who cried after he heard about that game.

And it's not just the 81 point game, but also the game he outscored the whole opponent team (actually it doesn't get any better than this), the 50+ streak, and all other freakish scoring night. Sure MJ had amazing performances as well, but Kobe has the edge in here, at least in my eyes.

Kobe IMO is also the better clutch player (inarguably more complete).

And his 3 rings are 100% legit as well. Just because he didn't get any Finals MVPs, and you youngsters who love to act your age have not watched his title run, it doesn't mean that his rings are not legit. Just so you know, in 00 the Lakers blew a 3-1 lead against the Blazers and in game 7 when Portland had a huge lead, it was Kobe who put his team on his back, and bailed them out. NOT SHAQ. And anyone who has watched the 01 playoffs, knows that Kobe was the MVP of the actual finals, the Spurs series.

Three quick notes in the end:

1. Anyone who is a fan of the sport, not of one certain player from the past, would tell you that today the baasketball is better than it ever was before. It doesn't necessarily mean that whoever is the best today is the best ever, but you guys are trying to create silly arguments. It's like people who think say Wilt is the Goat calling 60s the best era. I'm not trying to infamously call past eras "watered down", sure they were high level, but the game always keeps improving. And it has improved a lot since MJs glory days.

2. Celtics 08 are the GOAT defensive team.

3. Kobe is a better defender than MJ. No supersar in league history, who carries his teams scoring load has spent more time on defending opponent teams best players than Kobe. And he has always done a good job.

This is the biggest bunch of crap I've ever read in my life, this is clearly the thoughts and opinions of someone who didn't watch Michael Jordan's career, I will waste another 10 minutes debunking more ****.

[Da_Realist]

Actually this thread deserves nothing but mocking, as I wouldn't want to find my way in conversation when bruceblitz and AlphaWolf are going at each other, but since there are people who actually believe that Kobe is better, and I am one of them, I'll try to give a damn.



I have always considered Shaq better than Duncan (which argument is close), even before I heard about this stats (I heard about PER a couple of years ago, and the others only this or last season, and some of them, I still don't know what they are). Their numbers are not the sole reason to say Shaq>>Duncan. It's what they are capable of doing. Duncan even when he was having better seasons than Shaq, didn't give me the impression of dominance that Shaq did. If you have watched NBA (Lakers in particular) in 2000, you'd get the impression that you can put Shaq in the worst team of the League, and they'd battle for the title, which cannot be said for any player from 80s to present (MJ included). Anyone in his own sane mind would consider Shaq the most dominant player of at least the last 30 years.
In fact that 61/23 game of Shaq weighs much more in the argument, which is in Kobe's favor on the second comparison.

Now I don't know much about the other stats, but it's easier to get higher PER if you play in a more defensive minded, slow paced team, and you pretty much dominate the whole offense. Thats why guys like LBJ, and CP3 drop high PER numbers. I'd ask you a question, and would like to hear your answer, even though I know what your honest answer is.

If LeBrons top 3 PER years are better than Jordans would you consider him better than MJ?

Or would you consider CP3 better than Magic?

Basketball is played on game by game basis. At the end of the day there are 3 things which I use in measuring the greatness. In order they are:
1. Game performances
2. Clutch performances
3. Team success (not necessarily just the titles)

And there is a reason why so many times you'll see groupies from each side saying something like "lol, so I guess Horry is beter than Jordan/Kobe :oldlol: ", everytime something in contrast to their point is said. The truth is Horry has 7 rings, and all of those rings are 100 percent legit. So why is he not considered among top100 players of all time. He has the team success, and I know everyone will admit he has the clutch performances. But those game performances I put in the #1 are what define you as a player in the first place. Yes, the ones that haters love to go like "But Kobe is da GOAT, cuz he scored 81 on the RAPTORS". You haters are not located in a different point in space, I have a friend who cried after he heard about that game.

And it's not just the 81 point game, but also the game he outscored the whole opponent team (actually it doesn't get any better than this), the 50+ streak, and all other freakish scoring night. Sure MJ had amazing performances as well, but Kobe has the edge in here, at least in my eyes.

Kobe IMO is also the better clutch player (inarguably more complete).

And his 3 rings are 100% legit as well. Just because he didn't get any Finals MVPs, and you youngsters who love to act your age have not watched his title run, it doesn't mean that his rings are not legit. Just so you know, in 00 the Lakers blew a 3-1 lead against the Blazers and in game 7 when Portland had a huge lead, it was Kobe who put his team on his back, and bailed them out. NOT SHAQ. And anyone who has watched the 01 playoffs, knows that Kobe was the MVP of the actual finals, the Spurs series.

Three quick notes in the end:

1. Anyone who is a fan of the sport, not of one certain player from the past, would tell you that today the baasketball is better than it ever was before. It doesn't necessarily mean that whoever is the best today is the best ever, but you guys are trying to create silly arguments. It's like people who think say Wilt is the Goat calling 60s the best era. I'm not trying to infamously call past eras "watered down", sure they were high level, but the game always keeps improving. And it has improved a lot since MJs glory days.

2. Celtics 08 are the GOAT defensive team.

3. Kobe is a better defender than MJ. No supersar in league history, who carries his teams scoring load has spent more time on defending opponent teams best players than Kobe. And he has always done a good job.

:eek: turned into :wtf: which then made me :roll: :roll:

[Alpha Wolf]

This is the biggest bunch of crap I've ever read in my life, this is clearly the thoughts and opinions of someone who didn't watch Michael Jordan's career, I will waste another 10 minutes debunking more ****.


Of course Michael Jordan is the Holy Messiah God forbid anyone criticize him


:rolleyes:

[NBASTATMAN]

I want to put all this nonsensical "Kobe = Jordan" or "Kobe > Jordan" stuff to rest. Here's a taste of what will be coming; I will be adding to this topic as I have time to. To start with, I'll use Shaq's 3 year peak and Duncan's 3 year peak as an example. Most Laker/Kobe fans will agree that prime Shaq was significantly more dominant than prime Duncan, yet these same people don't realize (or don't want to admit) that Jordan's prime was actually even further beyond Kobe's prime than Shaq's was above Duncan's. Allow me to illustrate:


Shaq's 3 year best PER: 30.4 (+3.4 PER above Duncan)

Duncan's 3 year best PER: 27.0


Shaq's 3 year best EFF: 31.1 (+1.8 EFF above Duncan)

Duncan's 3 year best EFF: 29.3


Shaq's 3 year best Win Shares: 15.7 (equal to Duncan's)

Duncan's 3 year best Win Shares: 15.7


Shaq's 3 year best ORtg: 115.0 (+4.0 above Duncan's)

Duncan's 3 year best ORtg: 111.0


Now for Jordan and Kobe:


Jordan's 3 year best PER: 31.3 (+5.5 PER above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best PER: 25.8


Jordan's 3 year best EFF: 35.6 (+10.7 EFF above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best EFF: 24.9


Jordan's 3 year best Win Shares: 19.4 (+5.1 above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best Win Shares: 14.3


Jordan's 3 year best ORtg: 123.0 (+8.3 above Kobe)

Kobe's 3 year best ORtg: 114.7



As you can see, Jordan's edge over Kobe in each category (and many others I haven't posted) is substantially larger than (sometimes over twice as large as) prime Shaq's advantage over prime Duncan. Furthermore, Duncan's defensive edge over Shaq makes their comparison closer than the numbers imply, whereas Jordan was a much more impactful defender than Kobe (he won DPOY, finished second in DPOY voting two other times, and finished top 5 for a nine year stretch), so his edge only increases above what is shown by the numbers.

Yet despite all this and more, you have clowns trying to posit equivalency between the two players. Why? Because they're both 6'6" and Kobe copied a ton of MJ's moves? Big deal. There's no comparison between them in terms of impact on the court. Period. There's more coming.



This is no longer a debate.. As Tim Legler said the other day no other player in the history of the game came up big when it most mattered like MJ.. All other players have had times where they have played bad when they needed to play great.. Kobe has really stunk up the joint in a couple of finals.. If you ask about skills than that could be debated.. But MJ was stronger, faster and jumped higher as well as had the greatest hands ever.. Kobe is a great player so comeon let him live... We should be happy to still have a guy who loves bball.. Too few of those guys left.. The league would be a joke without the kobe's , lebrons, kg's.. Let us not diss them but praise them.. I don't care if they aren't as great as the superstars of the 80's and 90's , I am happy we still have the best players in the world... Soon enough we won't have the best players.. The money has ruined basketball in the USA...BTW I am not a Kobe fan , I believe he is overrated by laker fans but underrated by the haters....

[Scott Pippen]

Kobe is a better defender than MJ.Good Lord. :roll:

[iTruWarrior]

OMG, We are still debating this? :banghead: :rant

[bruceblitz]

Basketball is played on game by game basis. At the end of the day there are 3 things which I use in measuring the greatness. In order they are:
1. Game performances
2. Clutch performances
3. Team success (not necessarily just the titles)



This couldn't be any more false.

1) Titles as a team leader
2) Sustained domination as an individual
3) NBA Finals performances
4) Playoff performances
5) Regular season domination
6) Dominating playoff level and championship level teams
7) MVP's, accolades, stats





Yes, the ones that haters love to go like "But Kobe is da GOAT, cuz he scored 81 on the RAPTORS". You haters are not located in a different point in space, I have a friend who cried after he heard about that game.

And it's not just the 81 point game, but also the game he outscored the whole opponent team (actually it doesn't get any better than this), the 50+ streak, and all other freakish scoring night. Sure MJ had amazing performances as well, but Kobe has the edge in here, at least in my eyes.
Your eyes haven't seen enough basketball obviously. Let's take a better look at the 50+ streak:
Did Kobe score his 50+ point games on championship contenders? Playoff teams? or Tomato Cans? Also how was Kobe playing leading up to his 50 point streak? Does Bernard King's 3 straight 50 point games put him on the same level as MJ? Does David Thompson's 73 point game put him above MJ?
Jan 5th Kobe 22% and only 8 points, Lakers win vs Denver
Jan 7th Kobe under 50% barely win vs Dal
Jan 9th Kobe 46% shooting Loss @ Memphis
Jan 10th Kobe 33% shooting Loss @ houston
Jan 15th Kobe 45% shooting they still won vs Mia
Jan 18th Kobe 44% shooting loss @ dal
Jan 20th Kobe 31% shooting loss @ NOK
Jan 26th Kobe 41% shooting loss vs cha
Feb 2cnd Kobe 28% shooting loss @ ind
Feb 8th Kobe 38% shooting loss @ det
Feb 9th Kobe 43% shooting loss @ tor
Feb 13th Kobe 45% shooting Loss vs NY Knickerbockers
Feb 15th Kobe 40% shooting loss vs cle
Feb 21st Kobe 36% shooting loss vs portland
Feb 25th Kobe 39% shooting oh my they overcame his bad shooting for once, GO PHIL! win @ gsw
Feb 26th Kobe 33% shooting and they win again, proving to be a great team that can overcome bad shooting nights from their leader, win @ utah
Mar 2cnd Kobe shoots 45% loss vs sac
Mar 4th kobe shoots 28 shots making 39% of them and the lakers lose by 5 points to the suns. i mean give odom even 3 of those shots and you have a chance because Odom takes shots in the post.
Mar 6th Kobe shoots 30 shots (time to shotjack since the shot percentage is down, he is easy to figure out)(he did it before)30 shots 43% loss @ min
Mar 9th Kobe shoots 27 shots 44% loss @ philadelphia? sad
Mar 11 Kobe takes 19 shots making 6 for 31% loss vs dal
Mar 15 Kobe 45% shooting loss @ den
Mar 16 Kobe 39 shots, over 50% for once and they beat weak portland, that is his 65 point game and the beginning of the hype to make people forget all the **** games he was having but he had 12 free throws in the game keep in mind vs weak *** portland
Mar 18th Kobe 35 shots making 17 of them 50 points with 14 free throws to help out vs minn
Mar 22 Kobe 37 shots 60 points they gave him 18 free throws @ weak *** memphis
Mar 23 Kobe shoots 29 shots and 16 free throws to score 50 for his little streak that you all got so excited about @ the weak *** knicks?
Mar 25th Kobe tries to go for that 5th 50 point game the stat chaser, with 33 shot attempts making only 15, well they only gave him 11 free throws so he only scored 43 points. 33 shot attempts 11 free throws only 43 points in a close lucky 2 point win over gsw

The 81 point game? Against the 27 win raptors who ranked dead last in the NBA in team defense at that point in the season? Why did Pippen come out and say in his now deleted NBA.com blog that Jordan could have scored 100 on that team if he took as many shots and free throws as Kobe? I guess Pippen is a Kobe hater. Or maybe he sees the game for what it is.


Some of Jordan's high scoring games:
69 @Cleveland(42-40) 3/28/90
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4th in Central Div)
(9th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls won 117-113)
(Jordan shot 62.2%)
23-37fg 21-23ft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
64 vs Orlando(41-41) 1/16/93
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4th in Atlantic Div)
(11th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls lost 124-128)
(Jordan shot 55.1% with injured wrist)
27-49fg 9-11ft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
63 @Boston(67-15) 4/20/86 (Playoffs)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(NBA Champs)
(1st ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls lost 131-135)
(Jordan shot 53.6%)
22-41fg 19-21ft
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
61 @Detroit(52-30) 3/4/87
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2nd in Central Div)
(5th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls won 125-120)
(Jordan shot 56.4%)
22-39fg 17-18ft

76% of Jordan's 50+ point games came against teams with winning records at the time compared to 21% of Kobe's 50+ point games.



Kobe IMO is also the better clutch player (inarguably more complete).

FACT: Kobe Bryant has choked in over 10 NBA finals games
FACT: Kobe Bryant has let games and series slip away without making an impact
FACT: Kobe Bryant has missed more game winning attempts than anyone in NBA history
FACT: Kobe Bryant has missed more game winning attempts from 2004-2009 than Jordan did in his entire career.
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
quote from that link, (03-09)
...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!

42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups



And his 3 rings are 100% legit as well.

as a sidekick, I agree, but never as the team leader.

Three quick notes in the end:

1. Anyone who is a fan of the sport, not of one certain player from the past, would tell you that today the baasketball is better than it ever was before.(false) It doesn't necessarily mean that whoever is the best today is the best ever, but you guys are trying to create silly arguments. It's like people who think say Wilt is the Goat calling 60s the best era. I'm not trying to infamously call past eras "watered down", sure they were high level, but the game always keeps improving. And it has *deteriorated* a bit since MJs glory days.




2. Celtics 08 are the GOAT defensive team.

:oldlol:
When defending a superstar:
95-96 Sonics defense > 08 Celtics defense under these soft ass rules
proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc

in fact, the 08 Celtics are in the category of these defenses when we talk about defending a superstar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8

Kobe Bryant would fold if he was forced to face this type of fierce competition day in and day out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

Notice in these 3 videos how the 08 Celtics defense gives up all kinds of layups to players who will never even sniff an all star game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc




3. Kobe is a better defender than MJ. No supersar in league history, who carries his teams scoring load has spent more time on defending opponent teams best players than Kobe. And he has always done a good job


LMFAO! I guess you haven't seen all the articles written online about how overrated Kobe Bryant's defense has been for the last half-a-decade. How inconsistent it has been. By the way, Jordan won a defensive player of the year award in an era littered with great defenders and great bigs.
Kobe's the better defender? has 0 defensive player of the year awards, but Jordan won 1. Yes, that's real intelligent.


If I may add a little bit more of the obvious, Jordan averages almost 10 more points per game than Kobe in the playoffs for their careers, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals MVP's), Jordan won 10 scoring titles compared to Kobe's 2 scoring titles, get the **** out of here with your crap.


END RANT

[NBASTATMAN]

Actually this thread deserves nothing but mocking, as I wouldn't want to find my way in conversation when bruceblitz and AlphaWolf are going at each other, but since there are people who actually believe that Kobe is better, and I am one of them, I'll try to give a damn.



I have always considered Shaq better than Duncan (which argument is close), even before I heard about this stats (I heard about PER a couple of years ago, and the others only this or last season, and some of them, I still don't know what they are). Their numbers are not the sole reason to say Shaq>>Duncan. It's what they are capable of doing. Duncan even when he was having better seasons than Shaq, didn't give me the impression of dominance that Shaq did. If you have watched NBA (Lakers in particular) in 2000, you'd get the impression that you can put Shaq in the worst team of the League, and they'd battle for the title, which cannot be said for any player from 80s to present (MJ included). Anyone in his own sane mind would consider Shaq the most dominant player of at least the last 30 years.
In fact that 61/23 game of Shaq weighs much more in the argument, which is in Kobe's favor on the second comparison.

Now I don't know much about the other stats, but it's easier to get higher PER if you play in a more defensive minded, slow paced team, and you pretty much dominate the whole offense. Thats why guys like LBJ, and CP3 drop high PER numbers. I'd ask you a question, and would like to hear your answer, even though I know what your honest answer is.

If LeBrons top 3 PER years are better than Jordans would you consider him better than MJ?

Or would you consider CP3 better than Magic?

Basketball is played on game by game basis. At the end of the day there are 3 things which I use in measuring the greatness. In order they are:
1. Game performances
2. Clutch performances
3. Team success (not necessarily just the titles)

And there is a reason why so many times you'll see groupies from each side saying something like "lol, so I guess Horry is beter than Jordan/Kobe :oldlol: ", everytime something in contrast to their point is said. The truth is Horry has 7 rings, and all of those rings are 100 percent legit. So why is he not considered among top100 players of all time. He has the team success, and I know everyone will admit he has the clutch performances. But those game performances I put in the #1 are what define you as a player in the first place. Yes, the ones that haters love to go like "But Kobe is da GOAT, cuz he scored 81 on the RAPTORS". You haters are not located in a different point in space, I have a friend who cried after he heard about that game.

And it's not just the 81 point game, but also the game he outscored the whole opponent team (actually it doesn't get any better than this), the 50+ streak, and all other freakish scoring night. Sure MJ had amazing performances as well, but Kobe has the edge in here, at least in my eyes.

Kobe IMO is also the better clutch player (inarguably more complete).

And his 3 rings are 100% legit as well. Just because he didn't get any Finals MVPs, and you youngsters who love to act your age have not watched his title run, it doesn't mean that his rings are not legit. Just so you know, in 00 the Lakers blew a 3-1 lead against the Blazers and in game 7 when Portland had a huge lead, it was Kobe who put his team on his back, and bailed them out. NOT SHAQ. And anyone who has watched the 01 playoffs, knows that Kobe was the MVP of the actual finals, the Spurs series.

Three quick notes in the end:

1. Anyone who is a fan of the sport, not of one certain player from the past, would tell you that today the baasketball is better than it ever was before. It doesn't necessarily mean that whoever is the best today is the best ever, but you guys are trying to create silly arguments. It's like people who think say Wilt is the Goat calling 60s the best era. I'm not trying to infamously call past eras "watered down", sure they were high level, but the game always keeps improving. And it has improved a lot since MJs glory days.

2. Celtics 08 are the GOAT defensive team.

3. Kobe is a better defender than MJ. No supersar in league history, who carries his teams scoring load has spent more time on defending opponent teams best players than Kobe. And he has always done a good job.



I think Kobe is a great player and skill wise I would argue mj and kobe but defensively Kobe is probably the most overrated player I have ever seen... Still when he tries to play defense he is good.. Problem is I have visions of Pierce scoring on him as well ray allen.. Than I remember the Pistons series how Hamilton made kobe his biatch.. Sorry but this last post fails miserably.. Come up with how Kobe , well I don't know... Celtics as the goat defensive team can be argued but I would take the knicks and pistons in the mj days over any today simply because they could handcheck and throw you on the floor without any suspensions... The game was way different and just the handchecking would make players shooting alot worse..

[OldSchoolBBall]

3. Kobe is a better defender than MJ. No supersar in league history, who carries his teams scoring load has spent more time on defending opponent teams best players than Kobe. And he has always done a good job.

:oldlol:

Holy sh&t dude. I was actually going to address your entire post until I came to the end and this little gem. This has got to be a joke. Either that or you never saw Jordan play before 1997. Seriously. That comment is an utter joke. Kobe isn't even 70% of the defensive player that Jordan was same age vs. same age. I mean, wow. What a joke.

Never mind, I didn't see the remark above the first quote in your post either:


but since there are people who actually believe that Kobe is better, and I am one of them

What a freaking JOKE. Like I said, people like you are a joke of epic proportions. You have absolutely ZERO evidence to bring to bear on this argument, and all you can rely on is subjective opinion and anecdotes. Yet you expect to be taken seriously.

Kobe better than Jordan. Wow. :oldlol: Explain away EVERY SINGLE NUMBER AND STAT please. Explain away the disparity in defensive impact. Explain away the difference in results and level of play. The comparison is a joke.

[NBASTATMAN]

This couldn't be any more false.

1) Titles as a team leader
2) Sustained domination as an individual
3) NBA Finals performances
4) Playoff performances
5) Regular season domination
6) Dominating playoff level and championship level teams
7) MVP's, accolades, stats



Your eyes haven't seen enough basketball obviously. Let's take a better look at the 50+ streak:
Did Kobe score his 50+ point games on championship contenders? Playoff teams? or Tomato Cans? Also how was Kobe playing leading up to his 50 point streak? Does Bernard King's 3 straight 50 point games put him on the same level as MJ? Does David Thompson's 73 point game put him above MJ?
Jan 5th Kobe 22% and only 8 points, Lakers win vs Denver
Jan 7th Kobe under 50% barely win vs Dal
Jan 9th Kobe 46% shooting Loss @ Memphis
Jan 10th Kobe 33% shooting Loss @ houston
Jan 15th Kobe 45% shooting they still won vs Mia
Jan 18th Kobe 44% shooting loss @ dal
Jan 20th Kobe 31% shooting loss @ NOK
Jan 26th Kobe 41% shooting loss vs cha
Feb 2cnd Kobe 28% shooting loss @ ind
Feb 8th Kobe 38% shooting loss @ det
Feb 9th Kobe 43% shooting loss @ tor
Feb 13th Kobe 45% shooting Loss vs NY Knickerbockers
Feb 15th Kobe 40% shooting loss vs cle
Feb 21st Kobe 36% shooting loss vs portland
Feb 25th Kobe 39% shooting oh my they overcame his bad shooting for once, GO PHIL! win @ gsw
Feb 26th Kobe 33% shooting and they win again, proving to be a great team that can overcome bad shooting nights from their leader, win @ utah
Mar 2cnd Kobe shoots 45% loss vs sac
Mar 4th kobe shoots 28 shots making 39% of them and the lakers lose by 5 points to the suns. i mean give odom even 3 of those shots and you have a chance because Odom takes shots in the post.
Mar 6th Kobe shoots 30 shots (time to shotjack since the shot percentage is down, he is easy to figure out)(he did it before)30 shots 43% loss @ min
Mar 9th Kobe shoots 27 shots 44% loss @ philadelphia? sad
Mar 11 Kobe takes 19 shots making 6 for 31% loss vs dal
Mar 15 Kobe 45% shooting loss @ den
Mar 16 Kobe 39 shots, over 50% for once and they beat weak portland, that is his 65 point game and the beginning of the hype to make people forget all the **** games he was having but he had 12 free throws in the game keep in mind vs weak *** portland
Mar 18th Kobe 35 shots making 17 of them 50 points with 14 free throws to help out vs minn
Mar 22 Kobe 37 shots 60 points they gave him 18 free throws @ weak *** memphis
Mar 23 Kobe shoots 29 shots and 16 free throws to score 50 for his little streak that you all got so excited about @ the weak *** knicks?
Mar 25th Kobe tries to go for that 5th 50 point game the stat chaser, with 33 shot attempts making only 15, well they only gave him 11 free throws so he only scored 43 points. 33 shot attempts 11 free throws only 43 points in a close lucky 2 point win over gsw

The 81 point game? Against the 27 win raptors who ranked dead last in the NBA in team defense at that point in the season? Why did Pippen come out and say in his now deleted NBA.com blog that Jordan could have scored 100 on that team if he took as many shots and free throws as Kobe? I guess Pippen is a Kobe hater. Or maybe he sees the game for what it is.


Some of Jordan's high scoring games:
69 @Cleveland(42-40) 3/28/90
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4th in Central Div)
(9th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls won 117-113)
(Jordan shot 62.2%)
23-37fg 21-23ft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
64 vs Orlando(41-41) 1/16/93
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4th in Atlantic Div)
(11th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls lost 124-128)
(Jordan shot 55.1% with injured wrist)
27-49fg 9-11ft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
63 @Boston(67-15) 4/20/86 (Playoffs)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(NBA Champs)
(1st ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls lost 131-135)
(Jordan shot 53.6%)
22-41fg 19-21ft
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
61 @Detroit(52-30) 3/4/87
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2nd in Central Div)
(5th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls won 125-120)
(Jordan shot 56.4%)
22-39fg 17-18ft



FACT: Kobe Bryant has choked in over 10 NBA finals games
FACT: Kobe Bryant has let games and series slip away without making an impact
FACT: Kobe Bryant has missed more game winning attempts than anyone in NBA history
FACT: Kobe Bryant has missed more game winning attempts from 2004-2009 than Jordan did in his entire career.
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
quote from that link, (03-09)
...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!

42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups




:oldlol:
When defending a superstar:
95-96 Sonics defense > 08 Celtics defense under these soft ass rules
proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc

in fact, the 08 Celtics are in the category of these defenses when we talk about defending a superstar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8

Kobe Bryant would fold if he was forced to face this type of fierce competition day in and day out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

Notice in these 3 videos how the 08 Celtics defense gives up all kinds of layups to players who will never even sniff an all star game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc




LMFAO! I guess you haven't seen all the articles written online about how overrated Kobe Bryant's defense has been for the last half-a-decade. How inconsistent it has been. By the way, Jordan won a defensive player of the year award in an era littered with great defenders and great bigs.
Kobe's the better defender? has 0 defensive player of the year awards, but Jordan won 1. Yes, that's real intelligent.


If I may add a little bit more of the obvious, Jordan averages almost 10 more points per game than Kobe in the playoffs for their careers, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals MVP's), Jordan won 10 scoring titles compared to Kobe's 2 scoring titles, get the **** out of here with your crap.


END RANT




Ouch....

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe IMO is also the better clutch player (inarguably more complete).

And his 3 rings are 100% legit as well.

What a freaking joke. :oldlol: LMAO @ "inarguably more complete." How is he more complete? <Waits for entirely subjective answer>

[Scott Pippen]

What a freaking JOKE. Like I said, people like you are a joke of epic proportions. You have absolutely ZERO evidence to bring to bear on this argument, and all you can rely on is subjective opinion and anecdotes. Yet you expect to be taken seriously.
the 'evidence' is personal bias. Really there is no way to argue or debate that. I don't think you should have made this thread in the first place, because the people you are trying to explain this to are too closed minded to hear it. And you cannot use statistics to describe Jordan (or Kobe)'s greatness or show the difference. If they never saw him or saw the real golden age of the NBA (1983-1994) then they will not understand. :applause:

[DonDadda59]

The Jordan vs Jelly Bean comparisons officially ended on June 17, 2008. This **** is played out like Atari. Arguing Kobe=Jordan or worse that he's better is so 2006, you might as well be walking around with a Soul Glow jheri curl if you're still playing that game.

http://media.onsugar.com/files/ons/252/2521186/04_2009/a9/jheri_curl.jpg

[Da_Realist]

:oldlol:

Holy sh&t dude. I was actually going to address your entire post until I came to the end and this little gem. This has got to be a joke. Either that or you never saw Jordan play before 1997. Seriously. That comment is an utter joke. Kobe isn't even 70% of the defensive player that Jordan was same age vs. same age. I mean, wow. What a joke.

Never mind, I didn't see the remark above the first quote in your post either:



What a freaking JOKE. Like I said, people like you are a joke of epic proportions. You have absolutely ZERO evidence to bring to bear on this argument, and all you can rely on is subjective opinion and anecdotes. Yet you expect to be taken seriously.

Kobe better than Jordan. Wow. :oldlol: Explain away EVERY SINGLE NUMBER AND STAT please. Explain away the disparity in defensive impact. Explain away the difference in results and level of play. The comparison is a joke.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[All Net]

:applause:
I love how no one even tried to address the original post, but idiots like Alpha Wolf have to come up with all this sophistry to try and convince people that it's so close between Kobe and Jordan. :oldlol:

The gap between prime Jordan and Kobe was bigger than between prime Shaq and Duncan. Yet no one would ever suggest that prime Duncan was better or more dominant than prime Shaq the way they do for Kobe. Go figure. That's real "media fabrication" for you. :oldlol:

Whats the point? most reasonable fans know Kobe is not close to Mike..nobody is and likely nobody ever will be.

Just wish people would give all the Kobe bashing a rest...

[Juges8932]

I love the variety on this board. You know, Kobe vs Jordan, Kobe vs LeBron, LeBron vs Jordan, Kobe vs LeBron vs Jordan, Kobe and LeBron vs Jordan. It's so nice, because lord knows if it was the same trash everyday, people might get tired of it.

[Juges8932]

:applause:

Whats the point? most reasonable fans know Kobe is not close to Mike..nobody is and likely nobody ever will be.

Just wish people would give all the Kobe bashing a rest...

Yeah, but then what would they do with all of their time? Actually talk about relevant basketball stuff that is occurring now?:ohwell:

[Scott Pippen]

:applause:

Whats the point? most reasonable fans know Kobe is not close to Mike..nobody is and likely nobody ever will be.

Just wish people would give all the Kobe bashing a rest...Infact it is hard to compare across positions, unless we come up with a different criteria (playoff dominance, etc). But I like to think of it as the GOAT's. There is no one player FAR ahead of the pack. That would be disrespect to the other GOAT's like Chamberlain, Kareem, Russell, & of course Larry & Magic from the 80s.

[Alpha Wolf]

The Jordan vs Jelly Bean comparisons officially ended on June 17, 2008. This **** is played out like Atari. Arguing Kobe=Jordan or worse that he's better is so 2006, you might as well be walking around with a Soul Glow jheri curl if you're still playing that game.

http://media.onsugar.com/files/ons/252/2521186/04_2009/a9/jheri_curl.jpg



Kobe can lead his team to the Finals without a Top 50 alltime player teamate!...

Michael Jordan = 5 Losing seasons without Pippen....and 1 - 10 playoff record...1 win and 9 losses.....lmao....

MJ without Pippen = a baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.

Kobe>MJ

[NBASTATMAN]

The Jordan vs Jelly Bean comparisons officially ended on June 17, 2008. This **** is played out like Atari. Arguing Kobe=Jordan or worse that he's better is so 2006, you might as well be walking around with a Soul Glow jheri curl if you're still playing that game.

http://media.onsugar.com/files/ons/252/2521186/04_2009/a9/jheri_curl.jpg



THIS ARGUMENT SHOULD HAVE ENDED AFTER THE 2004 FINALS AND THE 2005 SEASON....

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe can lead his team to the Finals without a Top 50 alltime player teamate!...

Michael Jordan = 5 Losing seasons without Pippen....and 1 - 10 playoff record...1 win and 9 losses.....lmao....

MJ without Pippen = a baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.

Kobe>MJ



Lebron can lead his team to the finals without a true NBA PLAYER on his whole roster... :lol What good was it? Kobe was schooled and Gasol will wind up one of the top Power Forwards ever when he is given his due and this Laker team wins a title... Gasol not kobe has been the more consistent performer.. Kobe is better but Gasol has outplayed Kobe this year...

[bruceblitz]

Kobe can lead his team to the Finals without a Top 50 alltime player teamate!...

Michael Jordan = 5 Losing seasons without Pippen....and 1 - 10 playoff record...1 win and 9 losses.....lmao....

MJ without Pippen = a baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.

Kobe>MJ




This couldn't be any more false.

1) Titles as a team leader
2) Sustained domination as an individual
3) NBA Finals performances
4) Playoff performances
5) Regular season domination
6) Dominating playoff level and championship level teams
7) MVP's, accolades, stats



Your eyes haven't seen enough basketball obviously. Let's take a better look at the 50+ streak:
Did Kobe score his 50+ point games on championship contenders? Playoff teams? or Tomato Cans? Also how was Kobe playing leading up to his 50 point streak? Does Bernard King's 3 straight 50 point games put him on the same level as MJ? Does David Thompson's 73 point game put him above MJ?
Jan 5th Kobe 22% and only 8 points, Lakers win vs Denver
Jan 7th Kobe under 50% barely win vs Dal
Jan 9th Kobe 46% shooting Loss @ Memphis
Jan 10th Kobe 33% shooting Loss @ houston
Jan 15th Kobe 45% shooting they still won vs Mia
Jan 18th Kobe 44% shooting loss @ dal
Jan 20th Kobe 31% shooting loss @ NOK
Jan 26th Kobe 41% shooting loss vs cha
Feb 2cnd Kobe 28% shooting loss @ ind
Feb 8th Kobe 38% shooting loss @ det
Feb 9th Kobe 43% shooting loss @ tor
Feb 13th Kobe 45% shooting Loss vs NY Knickerbockers
Feb 15th Kobe 40% shooting loss vs cle
Feb 21st Kobe 36% shooting loss vs portland
Feb 25th Kobe 39% shooting oh my they overcame his bad shooting for once, GO PHIL! win @ gsw
Feb 26th Kobe 33% shooting and they win again, proving to be a great team that can overcome bad shooting nights from their leader, win @ utah
Mar 2cnd Kobe shoots 45% loss vs sac
Mar 4th kobe shoots 28 shots making 39% of them and the lakers lose by 5 points to the suns. i mean give odom even 3 of those shots and you have a chance because Odom takes shots in the post.
Mar 6th Kobe shoots 30 shots (time to shotjack since the shot percentage is down, he is easy to figure out)(he did it before)30 shots 43% loss @ min
Mar 9th Kobe shoots 27 shots 44% loss @ philadelphia? sad
Mar 11 Kobe takes 19 shots making 6 for 31% loss vs dal
Mar 15 Kobe 45% shooting loss @ den
Mar 16 Kobe 39 shots, over 50% for once and they beat weak portland, that is his 65 point game and the beginning of the hype to make people forget all the **** games he was having but he had 12 free throws in the game keep in mind vs weak *** portland
Mar 18th Kobe 35 shots making 17 of them 50 points with 14 free throws to help out vs minn
Mar 22 Kobe 37 shots 60 points they gave him 18 free throws @ weak *** memphis
Mar 23 Kobe shoots 29 shots and 16 free throws to score 50 for his little streak that you all got so excited about @ the weak *** knicks?
Mar 25th Kobe tries to go for that 5th 50 point game the stat chaser, with 33 shot attempts making only 15, well they only gave him 11 free throws so he only scored 43 points. 33 shot attempts 11 free throws only 43 points in a close lucky 2 point win over gsw

The 81 point game? Against the 27 win raptors who ranked dead last in the NBA in team defense at that point in the season? Why did Pippen come out and say in his now deleted NBA.com blog that Jordan could have scored 100 on that team if he took as many shots and free throws as Kobe? I guess Pippen is a Kobe hater. Or maybe he sees the game for what it is.


Some of Jordan's high scoring games:
69 @Cleveland(42-40) 3/28/90
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4th in Central Div)
(9th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls won 117-113)
(Jordan shot 62.2%)
23-37fg 21-23ft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
64 vs Orlando(41-41) 1/16/93
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4th in Atlantic Div)
(11th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls lost 124-128)
(Jordan shot 55.1% with injured wrist)
27-49fg 9-11ft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
63 @Boston(67-15) 4/20/86 (Playoffs)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(NBA Champs)
(1st ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls lost 131-135)
(Jordan shot 53.6%)
22-41fg 19-21ft
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
61 @Detroit(52-30) 3/4/87
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2nd in Central Div)
(5th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls won 125-120)
(Jordan shot 56.4%)
22-39fg 17-18ft

76% of Jordan's 50+ point games came against teams with winning records at the time compared to 21% of Kobe's 50+ point games.


FACT: Kobe Bryant has choked in over 10 NBA finals games
FACT: Kobe Bryant has let games and series slip away without making an impact
FACT: Kobe Bryant has missed more game winning attempts than anyone in NBA history
FACT: Kobe Bryant has missed more game winning attempts from 2004-2009 than Jordan did in his entire career.
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
quote from that link, (03-09)
...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!

42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups




:oldlol:
When defending a superstar:
95-96 Sonics defense > 08 Celtics defense under these soft ass rules
proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc

in fact, the 08 Celtics are in the category of these defenses when we talk about defending a superstar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8

Kobe Bryant would fold if he was forced to face this type of fierce competition day in and day out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

Notice in these 3 videos how the 08 Celtics defense gives up all kinds of layups to players who will never even sniff an all star game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc




LMFAO! I guess you haven't seen all the articles written online about how overrated Kobe Bryant's defense has been for the last half-a-decade. How inconsistent it has been. By the way, Jordan won a defensive player of the year award in an era littered with great defenders and great bigs.
Kobe's the better defender? has 0 defensive player of the year awards, but Jordan won 1. Yes, that's real intelligent.


If I may add a little bit more of the obvious, Jordan averages almost 10 more points per game than Kobe in the playoffs for their careers, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals MVP's), Jordan won 10 scoring titles compared to Kobe's 2 scoring titles, get the **** out of here with your crap.


END RANT

:hammertime:

[DonDadda59]

Kobe can lead his team to the Finals without a Top 50 alltime player teamate!...


So can Lebron, Dirk, AI, Jason Kidd, and like Jelly Bean (whose team was much better than any of those guys had) doesn't mean they'll win... and in Kobe's case, they get blown the **** out of the water :oldlol:

The thing that seperates Kobe from those guys, what makes him truly great is that he can 'lead' 3, that's THREE Top 50 all time teammates to yet another embarrassing finals loss, one of the top 10 worst performances in basketball history.

Count 'em, that's 3 Top 50 greatest players as teammates :oldlol: :roll: :roll: :oldlol:

http://www.lakersplayers.org/images/photos/lakers-history.jpg

But keep digging your grave even deeper you ****ing clown :violin:

[Flamboyant]

First off this is the reason why I left ISH a year ago. Everyone gets riled up for people having opinions (Jordan being the GOAT is an opinion as well), even though I don't see a problem with people considering MJ better than Kobe, and finding it normal. I swear you need a little education. I can swear to you go in a soccer forum, and say Messi (a guy who is no actually parellell to Kobe yet) is the GOAT, and people would still give better reasoning, instead of OMG have you ever watched (insert player name). Yes I have watched Jordan, not completely, but fairly a lot, and I hate to be pointing out bad things about him when I come to this board, but you can find lots of things/games when MJ failed.


:oldlol:

Holy sh&t dude. I was actually going to address your entire post until I came to the end and this little gem. This has got to be a joke. Either that or you never saw Jordan play before 1997. Seriously. That comment is an utter joke. Kobe isn't even 70% of the defensive player that Jordan was same age vs. same age. I mean, wow. What a joke.


Ignore it if you want, I didn't say inarguably, it's just my opinion, but it seriously looks like you guys are the ones that don't watch the games today. Jordan was a better help defender, as he was faster, and was a better shot blocker. But Kobe is a better one on one defender. He is stronger than Jordan especially prior to his first retirement, and has the habit of putting his hand in opponents face (not just raising his hand which is a little reflexive for most people). Neither Jordan nor Kobe shall be in the Goat defender discussion.
I have watched a couple of Bulls-Hawks games. MJ sure as hell wasn't guarding Nique. The fact that Nique scored 57 in a game against him doesn't help either. I don't want to make it sound like Jordan wasn't a great defender, just not as great as people try to claim.


What a freaking JOKE. Like I said, people like you are a joke of epic proportions. You have absolutely ZERO evidence to bring to bear on this argument, and all you can rely on is subjective opinion and anecdotes. Yet you expect to be taken seriously.

Kobe better than Jordan. Wow. :oldlol: Explain away EVERY SINGLE NUMBER AND STAT please. Explain away the disparity in defensive impact. Explain away the difference in results and level of play. The comparison is a joke.

Why don't you explain to me the defensive impact. Kobe has led his team to the finals 5 times while being the best defender on his team. MJ wasn't the best defender on his own team.
And Kobe has monster stats, in fact he has lots of records for the guards, which are held by Wilt overall. You didn't expect the guy that came to the league as a 17 year old 13th pick to have better averages than MJ right? Wait till Kobe breaks Kareems all time scoring record. Wait till he earns more rings. At current age MJ got his 3rd ring. Kobe will likely get his 4th.
Of course Kobe is not the GOAT yet, because he hasn't retired yet. But he will become the GOAT in the eyes of many as the years will pass. No one is considered the greatest before they retire. Before his 1st comeback from the retirement MJ was not considered this heavily the Goat. in fact I believe more people were considering Kareem, and Magic as the GOAT.


What a freaking joke. :oldlol: LMAO @ "inarguably more complete." How is he more complete? <Waits for entirely subjective answer>

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvWWZ5eO4Sk

Guess what's special about that video?

1. It's a game winning 3pointer with team being down by 2.

2. It's a catch and release game winner.

Neither of the 2 is something that MJ has ever did, and it's not subjecive, it's objective. Now the 1st one may be luck that he didn't have (though Kobe is inarguably a better 3pt shooter), but if you don't have enough time, and you need a quick catch and release, MJ is not the guy I'd want to take that shot.

[Alpha Wolf]

Jordan couldn't get out the first round with out pippen

Kobe made it to the Finals with out Shaq


Jordan is 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen, infact, he never had a WINNING season without Pippen!

Without Scottie Pippen, Jordan would be worse than a bald headed Dominique Wilkins, because 'Nique GOT PAST THE FIRST ROUND! Jordan couldn't get out of the first round for JACK!






Kobe>MJ


Nuff Said .....

[OldSchoolBBall]

Your entire post is full of unsubstantiated bullsh*t. yeah, Jordan's never hit a catch and shoot 3. What a joke. :oldlol:

And you said "more versatile," which usually means that he can be clutch in more ways (passing/defense/rebounding/scoring).

Your entire post is not worth addressing. Kobe a better defender than Jordan. I've heard it all now. :oldlol:

[Scott Pippen]

in fact I believe more people were considering Kareem, and Magic as the GOAT. How can you list these two but ignore Russell, Bird, or Wilt?

[NBASTATMAN]

:applause:

Whats the point? most reasonable fans know Kobe is not close to Mike..nobody is and likely nobody ever will be.

Just wish people would give all the Kobe bashing a rest...



Yea I think Kobe will wind up a top 10 player.. He needs a couple more rings but he should be able to attain that with the squad he has.. Give the guy his due.. While I am not a fan of his, I would take him on my clip team in a second... Sure he doesn't always play smart bball but it isn't because he doesn't want to win..:ohwell:

[nnn123]

First off this is the reason why I left ISH a year ago. Everyone gets riled up for people having opinions (Jordan being the GOAT is an opinion as well), even though I don't see a problem with people considering MJ better than Kobe, and finding it normal. I swear you need a little education. I can swear to you go in a soccer forum, and say Messi (a guy who is no actually parellell to Kobe yet) is the GOAT, and people would still give better reasoning, instead of OMG have you ever watched (insert player name). Yes I have watched Jordan, not completely, but fairly a lot, and I hate to be pointing out bad things about him when I come to this board, but you can find lots of things/games when MJ failed.



Ignore it if you want, I didn't say inarguably, it's just my opinion, but it seriously looks like you guys are the ones that don't watch the games today. Jordan was a better help defender, as he was faster, and was a better shot blocker. But Kobe is a better one on one defender. He is stronger than Jordan especially prior to his first retirement, and has the habit of putting his hand in opponents face (not just raising his hand which is a little reflexive for most people). Neither Jordan nor Kobe shall be in the Goat defender discussion.
I have watched a couple of Bulls-Hawks games. MJ sure as hell wasn't guarding Nique. The fact that Nique scored 57 in a game against him doesn't help either. I don't want to make it sound like Jordan wasn't a great defender, just not as great as people try to claim.



Why don't you explain to me the defensive impact. Kobe has led his team to the finals 5 times while being the best defender on his team. MJ wasn't the best defender on his own team.
And Kobe has monster stats, in fact he has lots of records for the guards, which are held by Wilt overall. You didn't expect the guy that came to the league as a 17 year old 13th pick to have better averages than MJ right? Wait till Kobe breaks Kareems all time scoring record. Wait till he earns more rings. At current age MJ got his 3rd ring. Kobe will likely get his 4th.
Of course Kobe is not the GOAT yet, because he hasn't retired yet. But he will become the GOAT in the eyes of many as the years will pass. No one is considered the greatest before they retire. Before his 1st comeback from the retirement MJ was not considered this heavily the Goat. in fact I believe more people were considering Kareem, and Magic as the GOAT.



Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvWWZ5eO4Sk

Guess what's special about that video?

1. It's a game winning 3pointer with team being down by 2.

2. It's a catch and release game winner.

Neither of the 2 is something that MJ has ever did, and it's not subjecive, it's objective. Now the 1st one may be luck that he didn't have (though Kobe is inarguably a better 3pt shooter), but if you don't have enough time, and you need a quick catch and release, MJ is not the guy I'd want to take that shot.


I just watched this the other day, so I just have to show you :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6AmfK8e76w&feature=channel_page#t=3m30s

[DonDadda59]

Jordan couldn't get out the first round with out pippen

Kobe made it to the Finals with out Shaq


Jordan is 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen, infact, he never had a WINNING season without Pippen!

Without Scottie Pippen, Jordan would be worse than a bald headed Dominique Wilkins, because 'Nique GOT PAST THE FIRST ROUND! Jordan couldn't get out of the first round for JACK!






Kobe>MJ


Nuff Said .....


http://actingschmacting.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/broken-record.jpg

[Flamboyant]

Your entire post is full of unsubstantiated bullsh*t. yeah, Jordan's never hit a catch and shoot 3. What a joke. :oldlol:

And you said "more versatile," which usually means that he can be clutch in more ways (passing/defense/rebounding/scoring).

Your entire post is not worth addressing. Kobe a better defender than Jordan. I've heard it all now. :oldlol:

I didn't say he has never hit a catch and release 3, I said he has never hit a catch and release game winner. And I didn't say he couldn't, but I said he is not the guy I'd want, as in there are quite some guys that I'd take over him (Kobe included)

Here is what I mean't by "more versatile"

You can be clutch (this is simply scoring wise) by:

1. Dominating the whole crunch time with scoring
2. Scoring a bucket when you have enough time in the clock (to make a couple of passes or dribbles)
3. Scoring a bucket when you don't have enough time
4. Scoring a bucket when you have time, but need a 3
5. Scoring a bucket when you don't have time, and need a 3

The first two are arguable, but if you would be honest, you'd admit that Kobe has the edge in the latter 3.

And even if we are talking about other (passing/rebounding/defense), Kobe still has an argument. How many times have you seen Jordan nailing the game winner after getting the offensive rebound? I have seen Kobe 4 times, 2 of them in the playoffs (2000 Pacers game 4, 2002 Spurs Game 3).
He had a game winning block against Sabonis in Game 3 00, had a couple of GW assists etc.

And yeah sure, MJ is the GOAT defender right? I mean the man had 48 inch vertical. In all seriousness, meh, forget it...

[Flamboyant]

How can you list these two but ignore Russell, Bird, or Wilt?

I mean't those two were considered by the most. (I get the impression that today they are usually ranked as 2nd and 3rd by the most.)

I just gave a couple of names, of course there were, and are people who consider RusselL, Wilt, Bird, Big O, and some others as the GOAT.

[Flamboyant]

I just watched this the other day, so I just have to show you :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6AmfK8e76w&feature=channel_page#t=3m30s

Thanks for the video (seriously), but I watched all of MJs game winners (the Bulls ones can be found on nba.com)

But that's not what I actually meant. Jordan doesn't take a dribble on that video, but he bends over a little, and releases the ball with his own shooting style.

Not claiming that Kobes GW was the best shot ever, MJ has some way better Game Winners, but judging strictly by difficulity Kobes shot is a much harder one to make. Notice he releases the ball immediately after he catches it. There was only 1.0 secs on the shot clock.

[Scott Pippen]

Thanks for the video (seriously), but I watched all of MJs game winners (the Bulls ones can be found on nba.com)

But that's not what I actually meant. Jordan doesn't take a dribble on that video, but he bends over a little, and releases the ball with his own shooting style.

Not claiming that Kobes GW was the best shot ever, MJ has some way better Game Winners, but judging strictly by difficulity Kobes shot is a much harder one to make. Notice he releases the ball immediately after he catches it. There was only 1.0 secs on the shot clock. So the ability to create easier shots for himself is being used against him? What is this H.O.R.S.E or 5-5 ball?

[DonDadda59]

Yadda Yadda Yadda... Notice he releases the ball immediately after he catches it. There was only 1.0 secs on the shot clock.

Notice how you're just talking to yourself because you already lost but don't realize it :oldlol:

[Scott Pippen]

I mean't those two were considered by the most. (I get the impression that today they are usually ranked as 2nd and 3rd by the most.)

I just gave a couple of names, of course there were, and are people who consider RusselL, Wilt, Bird, Big O, and some others as the GOAT. The universal top 6 in no order is Magic, Larry, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Jordan. Different fans may give different opinions. :applause:

[oh the horror]

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for being lured into this nonsense thread. This isnt even an argument, and honestly anyone who really believes Kobe is better than Mike probably makes up about 1 percent of the 99 percent of people on the planet who KNOW Jordan was a better overall ball player. Come on now. Why even argue this out?

[Scott Pippen]

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for being lured into this nonsense thread. This isnt even an argument, and honestly anyone who really believes Kobe is better than Mike probably makes up about 1 percent of the 99 percent of people on the planet who KNOW Jordan was a better overall ball player. Come on now. Why even argue this out?

Yes I have already told Loki making this thread was a bad idea. But also, we must understand that unless you use a certain set of criteria's (most accomplished, most dominant, most clutch, etc), then the best way to rank the greatest of all time is by positions. In that regard, Air Judden may be correct. Many people (younger) who call Jordan the best today really have no clue why, besides DVD's, ESPN, etc. We have to identify the criteria first, because this is a team sport. He is arguably the best player of all time. But he is inarguably the best ever at the SG position.

[Flamboyant]

So the ability to create easier shots for himself is being used against him? What is this H.O.R.S.E or 5-5 ball?

What si so hard to get. There was only one second in the shot clock, and he had to release it immediately. That's not a HORSE shot, but a typical NBA shot that has saved lot's of games, and it is what makes players like Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Richard Hamilton special. Once again, Kobe didn't have the time to create the easier shot. It has nothing to do with the ability.


Notice how you're just talking to yourself because you already lost but don't realize it :oldlol:

Nope, I realized it before I made my first post, it's nothing new actually. MJ will come on top on every Kobe v Mike comparison, as his fanbase is way wider, but I just proved that this debate won't end today. Kobe is not dead, he still has a lot to say in his career.

I'm done for tonight. Have a good night everyone.

[Stringer Bell]

By now I thought this argument would've been killed by now.

Basically the only argument you can really make for Kobe's case is that the game has evolved/progressed and that players are better now. It's a flimsy one, but the only way you can really argue for Kobe's case.

Kobe, while a great player no doubt, isn't the player Jordan was on both offense and defense. Kobe's a better long distance shooter, and that's about it. And then there's the fact that Jordan was one of the ultimate winners in NBA history as well.

[Scott Pippen]

What si so hard to get. There was only one second in the shot clock, and he had to release it immediately. That's not a HORSE shot, but a typical NBA shot that has saved lot's of games, and it is what makes players like Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Richard Hamilton special. Once again, Kobe didn't have the time to create the easier shot. It has nothing to do with the ability.
I am referring to the way most of you guys seem to judge a player's offensive ability.



MJ will come on top on every Kobe v Mike comparison, as his fanbase is way wider Yes because every non Jordan fan will choose Kobe. :applause:

[Da_Realist]

There was a thread earlier today about Kobe's play in elimination games. I was curious so I went back to see how MJ did in those types of games.

1985 1st Rd vs Milwaukee Game 4
29 pts (?? fgs), 7 rebs, 5 asts LOST

1986 1st Rd vs Boston Game 3
19 pts (8-17 fgs), 10 rebs, 9 asts LOST

1987 1st Rd vs Boston Game 3
30 pts (8-22 fgs), 11 rebs, 7 asts LOST

1988 1st Rd vs Cleveland Game 5
39 pts (12-20 fgs), 4 rebs, 6 asts WON

1988 ECSF vs Detroit Game 5
25 pts (10-22 fgs), 8 rebs, 8 asts LOST

1989 1st Rd vs Cleveland Game 5
44 pts (17-33 fgs), 9 rebs, 6 asts WON

1989 ECF vs Detroit Game 6
32 pts (13-25 fgs), 4 rebs, 13 asts LOST

1990 ECF vs Detroit Game 6
29 pts (10-19 fgs), 10 rebs, 2 asts WON

1990 ECF vs Detroit Game 7
31 pts (13-27 fgs), 8 rebs, 9 asts, 1 stl LOST

1992 ECSF vs New York Game 7
42 pts (15-29 fgs), 6 rebs, 4 asts, 2 stls, 3 blks WON

1995 ECSF vs Orlando Game 6
24 pts (8-19 fgs), 9 rebs, 7 asts, 4 stls, 4 blks LOST

1998 ECF vs Indiana Game 7
28 pts (9-25 fgs), 9 rebs, 8 asts WON

If anybody know the fg % of the game I missed, let me know and I'll update.

[Stringer Bell]

I think MJ was 17 of 33 in the 1989 game against Cleveland with "The Shot".

[Da_Realist]

I think MJ was 17 of 33 in the 1989 game against Cleveland with "The Shot".

:cheers:

I have that game, but I spent half the night counting his shots in the 87 game vs Boston. Thanks. I'll update now.

[gxL]

How can you list these two but ignore Russell, Bird, or Wilt?
russell, bird, wilt, kareem, magic, jordan, are the top 6 players of all time.

on topic: im a kobe fan, kobes my favourite player in the history of nba, but there's no way he's as good as jordan. and please don't give me the crap of jordan playing in a weak era, he had to play against the top 50 greatest players of all time, along with handchecking and no 3 in the key, so centers can just camp there. oh and for the record, jordan had 50+pt games at age 40.

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordan couldn't get out the first round with out pippen

Kobe made it to the Finals with out Shaq


Jordan is 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen, infact, he never had a WINNING season without Pippen!

Without Scottie Pippen, Jordan would be worse than a bald headed Dominique Wilkins, because 'Nique GOT PAST THE FIRST ROUND! Jordan couldn't get out of the first round for JACK!






Kobe>MJ


Nuff Said .....


Kobe has never gotten out of round 1 without Derek Fisher. Derek Fisher got to the Conference Finals without Kobe. Thus Derek Fisher >>> Kobe.
Without Derek Fisher, Kobe would still be coming off the bench.

[Duncan21formvp]

There was a thread earlier today about Kobe's play in elimination games. I was curious so I went back to see how MJ did in those types of games.

1985 1st Rd vs Milwaukee Game 4
29 pts (?? fgs), 7 rebs, 5 asts LOST

1986 1st Rd vs Boston Game 3
19 pts (8-17 fgs), 10 rebs, 9 asts LOST

1987 1st Rd vs Boston Game 3
30 pts (8-22 fgs), 11 rebs, 7 asts LOST

1988 1st Rd vs Cleveland Game 5
39 pts (12-20 fgs), 4 rebs, 6 asts WON

1988 ECSF vs Detroit Game 5
25 pts (10-22 fgs), 8 rebs, 8 asts LOST

1989 1st Rd vs Cleveland Game 5
44 pts (17-33 fgs), 9 rebs, 6 asts WON

1989 ECF vs Detroit Game 6
32 pts (13-25 fgs), 4 rebs, 13 asts LOST

1990 ECF vs Detroit Game 6
29 pts (10-19 fgs), 10 rebs, 2 asts WON

1990 ECF vs Detroit Game 7
31 pts (13-27 fgs), 8 rebs, 9 asts LOST

1992 ECSF vs New York Game 7
42 pts (15-29 fgs), 6 rebs, 4 asts WON

1995 ECSF vs Orlando Game 6
24 pts (8-19 fgs), 9 rebs, 7 asts LOST

1998 ECF vs Indiana Game 7
28 pts (9-25 fgs), 9 rebs, 8 asts WON

If anybody know the fg % of the 2 games I missed, let me know and I'll update.

That means his average is 31.00 PPG / 7.91 RPG / 7 APG / 48% FG

[momo]

http://www.unclejohnnys.eberville.com/images/Calzone.jpg

VS

http://themcode.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/pizza.jpg

[juju151111]

I mean't those two were considered by the most. (I get the impression that today they are usually ranked as 2nd and 3rd by the most.)

I just gave a couple of names, of course there were, and are people who consider RusselL, Wilt, Bird, Big O, and some others as the GOAT.
Wait are you trying to say kobe>MJ if not then forget it.

[Leviathon1121]

Nope, I realized it before I made my first post, it's nothing new actually. MJ will come on top on every Kobe v Mike comparison, as his fanbase is way wider, but I just proved that this debate won't end today. Kobe is not dead, he still has a lot to say in his career.

I'm done for tonight. Have a good night everyone.

No, it has nothing to do with MJ's fanbase, pretty much everybody agrees MJ > Kobe even if they are not bulls fans. You "special" fans who think otherwise have an EXTREMELY small following that congregates at LG.net where they ban anyone who says Kobe is not god.


I have watched a couple of Bulls-Hawks games. MJ sure as hell wasn't guarding Nique. The fact that Nique scored 57 in a game against him doesn't help either. I don't want to make it sound like Jordan wasn't a great defender, just not as great as people try to claim.

Well there we have it, his notion that Kobe is a better defender is based off of one game that he happened to watch. Gilbert freaking Arenas dropped 50 something on Kobe in LA, so, what exactly is your point?

http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=nba&id=general&tid=4541515&lid=141

Seriously, read that thread, something that rarely gets talked about is how vastly superior Jordan was mentally. You know what Laker fans actually agree on? They hate it when Kobe goes into chuck mode, because they know he plays worse when he turns games into 1v1 battles because someone talked some **** or gave him a hard foul. You honestly think someone who plays worse under those circumstances could possibly compete with Jordan, especially with teams like the Pistons and Knicks literally trying to injure you every time you drive to the hoop?

Edit: Good god Momo, fix your post....

[OldSchoolBBall]

Another Jordan quick release clutch 3 (waved off, but clutch):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTqDdZz2dHM&feature=channel_page#t=8m34s

And another late in the shot clock vs. Cleveland, playoffs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnF1YD6iXe0#t=1m46s

And another incredibly difficult, double clutch three to beat the buzzer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0tfkHmdHIM#t=4m55s


There are others, too. But yeah, let's talk sh*t just because he's never been put in that same exact situation as Kobe was before. :oldlol:

And LMAO @ this freakshow Flamboyant still trying to act like Kobe is a better defensive player than Jordan. It just doesn't get an nuttier than that, folks. :oldlol: Stick to talking about scoring.

[D.J.]

As much as I like Kobe, you cannot compare with Michael Jordan. No one had more of a will to win, to be the best, or to play while sick like Michael Jordan did. Kobe is a very talented player and will definitely be in the Hall of Fame, but even if someone did match Jordan in terms of numbers, no one will ever match his intangibles.

[-primetime-]

these threads are what keeps the good posters in the OTC...

[imdaman99]

What exactly is anyone going to prove? It's not like we'll ever get a chance to prove that prime MJ > prime Kobe. So anything you say is pure speculative, if thats a word lol.

Odds are that prime MJ > prime Kobe, but there really is no way to prove it. They were 10 years apart. If Laker homers or Kobe nutjobs continue to put down MJ, relax. You can't really take them seriously. Unless you invent a time machine, you can't prove sh*t. And I'm pretty sure you guys are happier that way. This way you never have to admit that Kobe got MJ that 1 time, even though MJ's Bulls won 3 out of the 4 times they did play in the Finals (speculation). Beat the dead horse more though, we know how angry it makes a lot of you guys to see Kobe on top of the NBA right now. (Oh wait, Lebron is about 4 times better than Kobe in your eyes isn't he?) :lol

[imdaman99]

Hey momo you retard, stop posting these giant pictures, making this thread impossible to read. Unless you meant to do that, which makes it at least a little amusing :lol

[Fatal9]

One of the most unnecessary threads I've seen in a while...thanks for stating the obvious!!

[gpfanz]

Pls dont put MJ & Kobe on the same line cause they r not. :banghead:

No wonder PleezeBelieve makes anti Kobe threads :confusedshrug:

[Juges8932]

Pls dont put MJ & Kobe on the same line cause they r not. :banghead:

No wonder PleezeBelieve makes anti Kobe threads :confusedshrug:

Yeah, his amazing threads, like Kobe failing because he got his team to 63 wins this season. :roll:

He makes those threads because he he has gotten so biased now and apparently doesn't have anything else to do, that he needs constant reinforcement in his mind that Kobe, is indeed, a "Failure." That guy is a ****ing joke.

[Brunch@Five]

Just a methodical question: how did you calculate the average PER over a 3-year span? You can't just divide by 3, because PER is a different value every year as 15 is set as the league average each year, right? So the exact same stats would result in different PERs each year.

[Da_Realist]

That means his average is 31.00 PPG / 7.91 RPG / 7 APG / 48% FG

31 pts (48% FG), 8 rebs, 7 asts** and his team won 5 of 12 games where he faced elimination. Not bad at all. :pimp: Especially considering who his teams lost to. Milwaukee, Larry's Celtics (twice), Isiah's Pistons (3 times) and Shaq's Magic.

The only time MJ's team did not lose to an NBA Finalist was his first year vs Milwaukee.

** I still don't have the fg% for the 85 game vs Milwaukee

[bruceblitz]

1) Titles as a team leader
2) Sustained domination as an individual
3) NBA Finals performances
4) Playoff performances
5) Regular season domination
6) Dominating playoff level and championship level teams
7) MVP's, accolades, stats



Your eyes haven't seen enough basketball obviously. Let's take a better look at the 50+ streak:
Did Kobe score his 50+ point games on championship contenders? Playoff teams? or Tomato Cans? Also how was Kobe playing leading up to his 50 point streak? Does Bernard King's 3 straight 50 point games put him on the same level as MJ? Does David Thompson's 73 point game put him above MJ?
Jan 5th Kobe 22% and only 8 points, Lakers win vs Denver
Jan 7th Kobe under 50% barely win vs Dal
Jan 9th Kobe 46% shooting Loss @ Memphis
Jan 10th Kobe 33% shooting Loss @ houston
Jan 15th Kobe 45% shooting they still won vs Mia
Jan 18th Kobe 44% shooting loss @ dal
Jan 20th Kobe 31% shooting loss @ NOK
Jan 26th Kobe 41% shooting loss vs cha
Feb 2cnd Kobe 28% shooting loss @ ind
Feb 8th Kobe 38% shooting loss @ det
Feb 9th Kobe 43% shooting loss @ tor
Feb 13th Kobe 45% shooting Loss vs NY Knickerbockers
Feb 15th Kobe 40% shooting loss vs cle
Feb 21st Kobe 36% shooting loss vs portland
Feb 25th Kobe 39% shooting oh my they overcame his bad shooting for once, GO PHIL! win @ gsw
Feb 26th Kobe 33% shooting and they win again, proving to be a great team that can overcome bad shooting nights from their leader, win @ utah
Mar 2cnd Kobe shoots 45% loss vs sac
Mar 4th kobe shoots 28 shots making 39% of them and the lakers lose by 5 points to the suns. i mean give odom even 3 of those shots and you have a chance because Odom takes shots in the post.
Mar 6th Kobe shoots 30 shots (time to shotjack since the shot percentage is down, he is easy to figure out)(he did it before)30 shots 43% loss @ min
Mar 9th Kobe shoots 27 shots 44% loss @ philadelphia? sad
Mar 11 Kobe takes 19 shots making 6 for 31% loss vs dal
Mar 15 Kobe 45% shooting loss @ den
Mar 16 Kobe 39 shots, over 50% for once and they beat weak portland, that is his 65 point game and the beginning of the hype to make people forget all the **** games he was having but he had 12 free throws in the game keep in mind vs weak *** portland
Mar 18th Kobe 35 shots making 17 of them 50 points with 14 free throws to help out vs minn
Mar 22 Kobe 37 shots 60 points they gave him 18 free throws @ weak *** memphis
Mar 23 Kobe shoots 29 shots and 16 free throws to score 50 for his little streak that you all got so excited about @ the weak *** knicks?
Mar 25th Kobe tries to go for that 5th 50 point game the stat chaser, with 33 shot attempts making only 15, well they only gave him 11 free throws so he only scored 43 points. 33 shot attempts 11 free throws only 43 points in a close lucky 2 point win over gsw

The 81 point game? Against the 27 win raptors who ranked dead last in the NBA in team defense at that point in the season? Why did Pippen come out and say in his now deleted NBA.com blog that Jordan could have scored 100 on that team if he took as many shots and free throws as Kobe? I guess Pippen is a Kobe hater. Or maybe he sees the game for what it is.


Some of Jordan's high scoring games:
69 @Cleveland(42-40) 3/28/90
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4th in Central Div)
(9th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls won 117-113)
(Jordan shot 62.2%)
23-37fg 21-23ft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
64 vs Orlando(41-41) 1/16/93
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4th in Atlantic Div)
(11th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls lost 124-128)
(Jordan shot 55.1% with injured wrist)
27-49fg 9-11ft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
63 @Boston(67-15) 4/20/86 (Playoffs)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(NBA Champs)
(1st ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls lost 131-135)
(Jordan shot 53.6%)
22-41fg 19-21ft
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
61 @Detroit(52-30) 3/4/87
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2nd in Central Div)
(5th ranked D in the NBA)
(Bulls won 125-120)
(Jordan shot 56.4%)
22-39fg 17-18ft

76% of Jordan's 50+ point games came against teams with winning records at the time compared to 21% of Kobe's 50+ point games.


FACT: Kobe Bryant has choked in over 10 NBA finals games
FACT: Kobe Bryant has let games and series slip away without making an impact
FACT: Kobe Bryant has missed more game winning attempts than anyone in NBA history
FACT: Kobe Bryant has missed more game winning attempts from 2004-2009 than Jordan did in his entire career.
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
quote from that link, (03-09)
...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!

42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups




:oldlol:
When defending a superstar:
95-96 Sonics defense > 08 Celtics defense under these soft ass rules
proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc

in fact, the 08 Celtics are in the category of these defenses when we talk about defending a superstar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8

Kobe Bryant would fold if he was forced to face this type of fierce competition day in and day out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

Notice in these 3 videos how the 08 Celtics defense gives up all kinds of layups to players who will never even sniff an all star game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc




LMFAO! I guess you haven't seen all the articles written online about how overrated Kobe Bryant's defense has been for the last half-a-decade. How inconsistent it has been. By the way, Jordan won a defensive player of the year award in an era littered with great defenders and great bigs.
Kobe's the better defender? has 0 defensive player of the year awards, but Jordan won 1. Yes, that's real intelligent.


If I may add a little bit more of the obvious, Jordan averages almost 10 more points per game than Kobe in the playoffs for their careers, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals MVP's), Jordan won 10 scoring titles compared to Kobe's 2 scoring titles, get the **** out of here with your crap.


END RANT

I love how flamboyant read NONE of this.

[bruceblitz]

Look at this crap!
So the Kobe lovers are in here trying to prop a 1 time MVP, with 2 scoring titles and inferior career averages, up to someone who won 5 league MVP's, 6 finals MVP's, with 10 scoring titles, and superior career averages, aka Jordan status.... and this is what he was doing last night:

Here's the way Kobe closed out last nights game late in the 4th quarter:
2:15 99-98 LAL Kobe Bryant missed Jump Shot
1:34 99-100 LAL Kobe Bryant missed 3-pt. Jump Shot
47.0 99-100 LAL Kobe Bryant missed 3-pt. Jump Shot
26.0 LAL Lost ball turnover on Kobe Bryant, Stolen by Steve Blake
9.0 99-104 LAL Kobe Bryant missed 3-pt. Jump Shot
3.0 99-105 LAL Kobe Bryant missed 3-pt. Jump Shot


If I had a nickel for every time that happened I'd have an even more stacked bank account. Every single time the guy chokes in the clutch it gets swept under the rug.

[Oden HOF]

LOL
KObe is the better defender but he never won any defensive player of the year or led the steals in the leauge :roll:

[PoGoMon]

HEY! **** off.



/thread :D

Learn how to resize, as your image makes reading the thread harder - not easier.:eek: :no: :rant :mad:

[Richie2k6]

I think this is the best way to instantly get a thread to have 5 pages in one day. Simply make it about Kobe vs Jordan. Time and time again people give serious arguments for Kobe being better and the pages just keep increasing. I'm not sure there's ever been a Kobe vs Jordan thread that didn't get to at least 3 pages. I'd be shocked if there was one.

[bruceblitz]

:

1991 Lakers - 2nd in defense
1992 Blazers - 13th in defense
1993 Suns - 18th in defense
1996 Sonics - 8th in defense
1997 Jazz - 8th in defense
1998 Jazz - 12th in defense
(bunch of crap!)

Average rank: 10th
(lie)

Compared to:

2008 Celtics - 2nd in defense (30 teams)


Jordan faced one defense in the finals that was comparable to this year's Celtic defense...well, sort of comparable. (lie)



Ok, so let's take a realistic look at this.

1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense, not 13th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html
Look at the defensive rating
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense, not 18th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1993.html
Look at the defensive rating
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense, not 8th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html
Look at the defensive rating
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!! And this fan boy is crying about Kobe choking against the celtics!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16, not 10 as was falsely posted.

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990 (19th ranked D)
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991 (14th ranked D)
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995 (9th ranked D)
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996 (3rd ranked D)
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998 (16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989

[Allstar24]

:oldlol: All bruce can do is copy and paste...he has no original thoughts, nothing to offer but a bunch of pre-written responses...which is why it is hard to take him seriously, how do you have a debate with somene like that?

[slevin6zer0]

:oldlol: All bruce can do is copy and paste...he has no original thoughts, nothing to offer but a bunch of pre-written responses...which is why it is hard to take him seriously, how do you have a debate with somene like that?
You are by far the worst poster on this forum. Way worse than Poodle or Alpha, at least they're humorous. They don't try and hide their agendas like you. Get a life you ****ing douche. There are things outside this board, no need to post such useless crap like you do ALL THE TIME.

[Allstar24]

You are by far the worst poster on this forum. Way worse than Poodle or Alpha, at least they're humorous. They don't try and hide their agendas like you. Get a life you ****ing douche. There are things outside this board, no need to post such useless crap like you do ALL THE TIME.
Who are you again? This is the third time you've attacked me and I've never seen you post here. I have no agenda...I'm just trying to figure out which troll you are, hiding under than username.

[bruceblitz]

:oldlol: All bruce can do is copy and paste...he has no original thoughts, nothing to offer but a bunch of pre-written responses...which is why it is hard to take him seriously, how do you have a debate with somene like that?

I did all that homework myself. All you can do is interject a pointless post because you don't like the information being presented to you because your IQ is about as high as a rock. Maybe not even that high.

[bruceblitz]

Ok, so let's take a realistic look at this.

1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense, not 13th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html
Look at the defensive rating
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense, not 18th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1993.html
Look at the defensive rating
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense, not 8th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html
Look at the defensive rating
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!! And this fan boy is crying about Kobe choking against the celtics!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16, not 10 as was falsely posted.

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990 (19th ranked D)
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991 (14th ranked D)
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995 (9th ranked D)
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996 (3rd ranked D)
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998 (16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989

http://www.freefoto.com/images/33/15/33_15_15---Fire-Flame-Texture_web.jpg

[slevin6zer0]

Who are you again? This is the third time you've attacked me and I've never seen you post here. I have no agenda...I'm just trying to figure out which troll you are, hiding under than username.

Yes, you do have an agenda. Stop trying to hide it. And what the **** does that last sentence say you illiterate ****? LEARN TO ****ING TYPE OUT REAL SENTENCES ONLINE YOU DUMB ****. No wonder no one takes your seriously here.

[Allstar24]

Yes, you do have an agenda. Stop trying to hide it. And what the **** does that last sentence say you illiterate ****? LEARN TO ****ING TYPE OUT REAL SENTENCES ONLINE YOU DUMB ****. No wonder no one takes your seriously here.
Once again, you don't know anything about me or my posts. I don't know whose alternate account this is but you sound like a mentally challenged individual so you're going on my ignore list, bye.

[Alpha Wolf]

Prime Jordan(without Pippen) 40 - 42 got SWEPT! in the first round...

Prime Kobe without Shaq multiple winning seasons NBA FINALS!...

Jordan = 5 years without pippen and 5 losing seasons 1 - 9 in the playoffs...

Kobe = 5 years without Shaq and 4 winning seasons...NBA finals..

Kobe Bryant won a Title his 4th season....




Jordan joined a losing team in 1984. His first year, they remained a losing team. The next year, they were a losing team. The third year, they posted their 3rd consecutive losing season. During Jordan's first three years, he was not able to make the Bulls into a contender. He couldn't even get them above .500. This man has a legendary "will to win", but can't win? Then, the Bulls add Scottie Pippen and put up thier first winning season in a decade...


The Bulls keep adding players and they keep winning more and more until they win 3 titles. Jordan retires, and the Bulls only slip 2 games. He comes back the next year, and they do WORSE in the playoffs than they did the year before him. After the Bulls add Rodman and win 3 more titles, they disband the team. Two years later, Jordan joins a losing Wizards team. Under Jordan, they remain a losing team both years and fail to make the playoffs each year. He retires again, and the Wizards continue losing the next year.


Do you see the trend? Jordan joins teams and they don't turn into contenders. They don't even get above .500, even during his second year there. When he leaves, they stay the same. If they are a good team, they continue winning games and if they are a losing team with Jordan, they continue losing games. Jordan doesn't "will" teams to a new level. His impact to the win column is minimal.

The only time the Bulls FRANCHISE have won a championship SCOTTIE PIPPEN was playing for that them. All those other players franchises won championships without them! So who really had a impact?.....Not too mention..the only time in the 80's and 90's the Bull's had winning seasons ..SCOTTIE PIPPEN was playing on the team.







Understand?......wow bruce.....your a hardcore Jordan jocker

[bruceblitz]

My propaganda keeps getting destroyed.

:

1991 Lakers - 2nd in defense
1992 Blazers - 13th in defense
1993 Suns - 18th in defense
1996 Sonics - 8th in defense
1997 Jazz - 8th in defense
1998 Jazz - 12th in defense
(bunch of crap!)

Average rank: 10th
(lie)

Compared to:

2008 Celtics - 2nd in defense (30 teams)


Jordan faced one defense in the finals that was comparable to this year's Celtic defense...well, sort of comparable. (lie)



Ok, so let's take a realistic look at this.

1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense, not 13th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html
Look at the defensive rating
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense, not 18th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1993.html
Look at the defensive rating
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense, not 8th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html
Look at the defensive rating
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!! And this fan boy is crying about Kobe choking against the celtics!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16, not 10 as was falsely posted.

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990 (19th ranked D)
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991 (14th ranked D)
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995 (9th ranked D)
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996 (3rd ranked D)
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998 (16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989

I'm looking at INDIVIDUAL SUCCESS, not team success. Unlike the propaganda clown. Jordan was also hugely responsible for his team success, thus being the team leader, thus winning 6 finals MVP's.

ALSO, JORDAN WAS THE MAIN TARGET OF ALL THESE DEFENSES. DOUBLE TEAMS, TRIPLE TEAMS, TRAPS, COLLAPSING THE PAINT, YOU NAME IT.

[slevin6zer0]

Once again, you don't know anything about me or my posts. I don't know whose alternate account this is but you sound like a mentally challenged individual so you're going on my ignore list, bye.
I bet you're the funniest kid at your community college huh?

[bruceblitz]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Xd7W6OPSCuI/SKx1ovWxhNI/AAAAAAAAA5A/w7sFbS9rB5g/s400/michael_jordan_trophy_rings.jpg

[Alpha Wolf]

I'm a hardcore Jordan jocker




Prime Jordan(without Pippen) 40 - 42 got SWEPT! in the first round...

Prime Kobe without Shaq multiple winning seasons NBA FINALS!...

Jordan = 5 years without pippen and 5 losing seasons 1 - 9 in the playoffs...

Kobe = 5 years without Shaq and 4 winning seasons...NBA finals..

Kobe Bryant won a Title his 4th season....




Jordan joined a losing team in 1984. His first year, they remained a losing team. The next year, they were a losing team. The third year, they posted their 3rd consecutive losing season. During Jordan's first three years, he was not able to make the Bulls into a contender. He couldn't even get them above .500. This man has a legendary "will to win", but can't win? Then, the Bulls add Scottie Pippen and put up thier first winning season in a decade...


The Bulls keep adding players and they keep winning more and more until they win 3 titles. Jordan retires, and the Bulls only slip 2 games. He comes back the next year, and they do WORSE in the playoffs than they did the year before him. After the Bulls add Rodman and win 3 more titles, they disband the team. Two years later, Jordan joins a losing Wizards team. Under Jordan, they remain a losing team both years and fail to make the playoffs each year. He retires again, and the Wizards continue losing the next year.


Do you see the trend? Jordan joins teams and they don't turn into contenders. They don't even get above .500, even during his second year there. When he leaves, they stay the same. If they are a good team, they continue winning games and if they are a losing team with Jordan, they continue losing games. Jordan doesn't "will" teams to a new level. His impact to the win column is minimal.

The only time the Bulls FRANCHISE have won a championship SCOTTIE PIPPEN was playing for that them. All those other players franchises won championships without them! So who really had a impact?.....Not too mention..the only time in the 80's and 90's the Bull's had winning seasons ..SCOTTIE PIPPEN was playing on the team.






http://www.soulofamerica.com/content/images/5d0da44ce046d0bf61c3520bc7cea64e.jpg

[Alpha Wolf]

Pippen carried Jordan



http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0706/gallery.nba.top10.game.fives/images/05.1997.bulls.jordan.pippen.jpg

[TheAnchorman]

After he scored 38 points while sick as hell.

[Alpha Wolf]

After he scored 38 points while sick as hell.


sick as hell ? :lol :roll:


man you been brainwashed by ESPN

[bruceblitz]

1983 Bulls 28 wins
1984 Bulls 27 wins (Brutal team, Bulls suck)
1985 Bulls 38 wins (Jordan joins team, team never misses the playoffs again with MJ on roster)
1986 Bulls 30 wins (Jordan missed most of season with injury)
1987 Bulls 40 wins (Jordan back, Bulls continue to improve with Jordan as leader)
1988 Bulls 50 wins (Jordan's leadership gets the Bulls to 50 wins)
1989 Bulls 47 wins (Pippen becomes a starter, Jordan takes Pippen under his wing)
1990 Bulls 55 wins (Jordan's leadership is starting to really show now)
1991 Bulls 61 wins (Jordan leads team to the first NBA championship, wins finals MVP)
1992 Bulls 67 wins (Jordan leads team to the second NBA title, wins finals MVP)
1993 Bulls 57 wins (Jordan leads team to the third NBA title, wins finals MVP)
1994 Bulls 55 wins (great regular season leadership by Pippen, Bulls fall in playoffs, no championship without Mike)
1995 Bulls 47 wins (Bulls struggle to stay above .500, Pippen is struggling with the leadership role and makes comments in the local media that it was "easier when Jordan was here". Pippen is seen on the bench pointing at his Jordan's shoe making reference that he wants Jordan to come back. Jordan says "Im back" MJ returns towards the end of the season and the Bulls win 76% of the rest of their games with Mike on the roster)
1996 Bulls 72 wins (Jordan finally back in basketball shape, Jordan leads the Bulls to the best record in NBA history, and the fourth NBA championship, adding a 4th finals MVP to his trophy case)
1997 Bulls 69 wins (As you can see, with Jordan back as the team leader, the Bulls were clearly dominant, win 5th NBA championship, Jordan wins 5th Finals MVP)
1998 Bulls 62 wins (Pippen misses half of the season, Pippen was not 100% all year, and he was not 100% in the playoffs, Pippen was suffering from multiple injuries but Jordan led the teams to 62 wins, and a sixth NBA championship, winning his 6th Finals MVP)
1999 Bulls win 13 games (Jordan and Pippen gone, Jerry Krause exposed as an idiot)

Notice, the Bulls never missed the playoffs with Jordan on the roster. A Kobe Bryant fan likes to ignore the fact that the first year that Shaq left the Lakers, Kobe didn't make the playoffs. Also, Jordan proved that when he had a good enough supporting cast around him to make it to the NBA Finals, he never lost, 6 titles in 6 trys. Kobe on the other hand lost in the Finals when Shaq was still on the team, D Wade 2 years later won a championship against Dallas, who was featuring the league's MVP, and D Wade averaged 38 points per game to pull the Heat over the finish line. That is true Jordanesque type play. Kobe also lost in the Finals in 2008 with the Lakers who were FAVORED to win the championship that year by 2 out of every 3 "experts".

Bottom line, Kobe is nowhere near MJ status.

This is what Kobe's Finals MVP trophy case looks like:

http://www.advantagefixtures.com/jpgs/productline/trophycases/wallcasesdtr70.jpg

Also, Pippen never out-performed Michael Jordan in even 1 finals series or 1 playoff series. Shaq on the other hand upstaged Kobe every time out.

Shaq carried Kobe(I suspect that's why Shaq wanted to take this pic):
http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/shaq-and-kobe.jpg

Why this moron thinks showing Bill Russell's ring count has anything to do with his Kobe argument is beyond me.

[Alpha Wolf]

What was the better Jordan performance?

A. His acting performance in Space Jam

B. His acting job in game 5 of the 1997 NBA finals (the one
where he pretended to have "the flu"


I'm going with the FAKE flu game. That was one great performance. He fooled alot of people with that one!

What do you guys think?

[bruceblitz]

What was the better Jordan performance?

A. His acting performance in Space Jam

B. His acting job in game 5 of the 1997 NBA finals (the one
where he pretended to have "the flu"


I'm going with the FAKE flu game. That was one great performance. He fooled alot of people with that one!

What do you guys think?
http://www.soapplant.com/images/wacko-lg.gif

[Tainted Sword]

Loki has to be one of the biggest wastes of talent I’ve ever seen on a discussion board. The guy is so knowledgeable about basketball and could contribute so much more to this site than acting as the chairman of the Jordan fanboy patrol 24/7. We get it, MJ is a better player than Kobe. There’s no sensible person this site that would argue otherwise, yet he continues to waste energy arguing with people like him who have agendas. It’s really sad, to be honest. Stop being lazy, Loki and post about something else for a change!

[bruceblitz]

Ok, so let's take a realistic look at this.

1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense, not 13th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html
Look at the defensive rating
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense, not 18th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1993.html
Look at the defensive rating
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense, not 8th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html
Look at the defensive rating
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!! And this fan boy is crying about Kobe choking against the celtics!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16, not 10 as was falsely posted.

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990 (19th ranked D)
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991 (14th ranked D)
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995 (9th ranked D)
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996 (3rd ranked D)
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998 (16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989

I'm looking at INDIVIDUAL SUCCESS, not team success. Unlike the propaganda clown. Jordan was also hugely responsible for his team success, thus being the team leader, thus winning 6 finals MVP's.

ALSO, JORDAN WAS THE MAIN TARGET OF ALL THESE DEFENSES. DOUBLE TEAMS, TRIPLE TEAMS, TRAPS, COLLAPSING THE PAINT, YOU NAME IT.

:hammertime:

[NBASTATMAN]

1983 Bulls 28 wins
1984 Bulls 27 wins (Brutal team, Bulls suck)
1985 Bulls 38 wins (Jordan joins team, team never misses the playoffs again with MJ on roster)
1986 Bulls 30 wins (Jordan missed most of season with injury)
1987 Bulls 40 wins (Jordan back, Bulls continue to improve with Jordan as leader)
1988 Bulls 50 wins (Jordan's leadership gets the Bulls to 50 wins)
1989 Bulls 47 wins (Pippen becomes a starter, Jordan takes Pippen under his wing)
1990 Bulls 55 wins (Jordan's leadership is starting to really show now)
1991 Bulls 61 wins (Jordan leads team to the first NBA championship, wins finals MVP)
1992 Bulls 67 wins (Jordan leads team to the second NBA title, wins finals MVP)
1993 Bulls 57 wins (Jordan leads team to the third NBA title, wins finals MVP)
1994 Bulls 55 wins (great regular season leadership by Pippen, Bulls fall in playoffs, no championship without Mike)
1995 Bulls 47 wins (Bulls struggle to stay above .500, Pippen is struggling with the leadership role and makes comments in the local media that it was "easier when Jordan was here". Pippen is seen on the bench pointing at his Jordan's shoe making reference that he wants Jordan to come back. Jordan says "Im back" MJ returns towards the end of the season and the Bulls win 76% of the rest of their games with Mike on the roster)
1996 Bulls 72 wins (Jordan finally back in basketball shape, Jordan leads the Bulls to the best record in NBA history, and the fourth NBA championship, adding a 4th finals MVP to his trophy case)
1997 Bulls 69 wins (As you can see, with Jordan back as the team leader, the Bulls were clearly dominant, win 5th NBA championship, Jordan wins 5th Finals MVP)
1998 Bulls 62 wins (Pippen misses half of the season, Pippen was not 100% all year, and he was not 100% in the playoffs, Pippen was suffering from multiple injuries but Jordan led the teams to 62 wins, and a sixth NBA championship, winning his 6th Finals MVP)
1999 Bulls win 13 games (Jordan and Pippen gone, Jerry Krause exposed as an idiot)

Notice, the Bulls never missed the playoffs with Jordan on the roster. A Kobe Bryant fan likes to ignore the fact that the first year that Shaq left the Lakers, Kobe didn't make the playoffs. Also, Jordan proved that when he had a good enough supporting cast around him to make it to the NBA Finals, he never lost, 6 titles in 6 trys. Kobe on the other hand lost in the Finals when Shaq was still on the team, D Wade 2 years later won a championship against Dallas, who was featuring the league's MVP, and D Wade averaged 38 points per game to pull the Heat over the finish line. That is true Jordanesque type play. Kobe also lost in the Finals in 2008 with the Lakers who were FAVORED to win the championship that year by 2 out of every 3 "experts".

Bottom line, Kobe is nowhere near MJ status.

This is what Kobe's Finals MVP trophy case looks like:

http://www.advantagefixtures.com/jpgs/productline/trophycases/wallcasesdtr70.jpg

Also, Pippen never out-performed Michael Jordan in even 1 finals series or 1 playoff series. Shaq on the other hand upstaged Kobe every time out.

Shaq carried Kobe(I suspect that's why Shaq wanted to take this pic):
http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/shaq-and-kobe.jpg

Why this moron thinks showing Bill Russell's ring count has anything to do with his Kobe argument is beyond me.



ALPHA KNOWS THE TRUTH I THINK HE IS HERE JUST TO MESS WITH THE MJ WORSHIPPERS... That trophy case being empty is hilarious.. Kobe loverz all know Kobe is a great player but truly has choked too much to be compared to MJ... :pimp:

[bruceblitz]

Facts are facts. Propaganda is propaganda. My facts destroy his propaganda.

:hammertime:

[NBASTATMAN]

[QUOTE=Tainted Sword]Loki has to be one of the biggest wastes of talent I

[Samurai Swoosh]

Honestly, still can't believe this specific conversation still is infected within the community and fabrick of this website. Because there isn't a discussion to be had with prime Jordan v.s. ANYONE.

You want to argue other facets of their games, similarities, or even Jordan at x point in his career v.s. Kobe at x point in his, thats fine.

I would give my left nut to see prime Kobe v.s. prime Jordan. That doesn't mean I don't know the obvious outcome, however.

No one can out compete Michael Jordan, then throw in him at his absolute prime? 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993 Michael Jordan? Against Kobe Bryant 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009? No ****ing contest. MJ would eat him for breakfast like a bowl of Wheaties.

[juju151111]

What was the better Jordan performance?

A. His acting performance in Space Jam

B. His acting job in game 5 of the 1997 NBA finals (the one
where he pretended to have "the flu"


I'm going with the FAKE flu game. That was one great performance. He fooled alot of people with that one!

What do you guys think?
It was confirm by the docs and you still didn't answer my question about choking. Why do you keep ignoring the simple question. I mean if your so confidant in your beliefs you should not have any problems.

[TheAnchorman]

sick as hell ? :lol :roll:


man you been brainwashed by ESPN
And you're just a retard, in the full sense of the word. What, are you saying NBC edited the camera and "photoshopped" MJ's glazed look and exhausted physical demeanor for about 2.5 hours, as well as give Marv Albert prompts in the commentary as to how sick he is? Get real, retard, Kobe scored 17 points while healthy in Game 4 last year.

[Scott Pippen]

[quote=Tainted Sword]Loki has to be one of the biggest wastes of talent I

[Alpha Wolf]

bruce = hardcore jordan jocker


Jordan jocker= One who started watching basketball around the time NIKE introduced Air Jordans. Got their basketball education by watching ESPN highlights and Inside Stuff with Ahmad Rashad. Because their NBA knowledge is limited at best, they BLINDLY go around saying that Michael Jordan was the greatest player in history, despite having nothing to back up that statement

[Killer_Instinct]

Kobe is a more versatile player, better defender,passer LEADER.


Oh shit!

[HYJ]

Prime MJ >>>>> Prime Kobe
Prime Magic >>> Prime Kobe
Prime Larry >>>Prime Kobe
Prime KAJ >>> Prime Kobe

kobe is not even the greatest laker.....

[bruceblitz]

go around saying that Michael Jordan was the greatest player in history, despite having nothing to back up that statement

I've presented enough information in this thread to write a book you goof. My first favorite player of all time was Magic Johnson moron! That was until I saw Jordan on my Bulls. This type of reasonable rational talk is ignored by you anyways.

[Samurai Swoosh]

despite having nothing to back up that statement
Besides superior stats, awards, general consensus opinion, you're totally right.

[catch24]

lol at presenting stats, accomplishments, accolades, and impact of the game yet there are still NO FACTS!!!!:wtf:

[Killer_Instinct]

Prime MJ >>>>> Prime Kobe
Prime Magic >>> Prime Kobe
Prime Larry >>>Prime Kobe
Prime KAJ >>> Prime Kobe

kobe is not even the greatest laker.....


http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/kobe.gif

[Alpha Wolf]

Kobe has led his team to several winning records without Shaq.

All five of Jordan's Pippen-less teams had losing records.

Jordan never even made the all -defensive team until Pippen and Horace Grant arrived in Chicago and stated playing defense. Jordan received much of the credit for the Bulls' improved defense even though he was there when they also sucked.

Jordan also never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen. Kobe has made it to the NBA finals without Shaq. Jordan's career W/L playoff record without Scottie was 1 win and 10 losses.


facts are facts

bruce blitz = nothing but Biased/Wrong stats

[bruceblitz]

Ok, so let's take a realistic look at this.

1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense, not 13th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/1992.html
Look at the defensive rating
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense, not 18th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1993.html
Look at the defensive rating
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense, not 8th as was falsely posted
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.html
Look at the defensive rating
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!! And this fan boy is crying about Kobe choking against the celtics!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16, not 10 as was falsely posted.

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990 (19th ranked D)
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991 (14th ranked D)
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995 (9th ranked D)
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996 (3rd ranked D)
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998 (16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989

I'm looking at INDIVIDUAL SUCCESS, not team success. Unlike the propaganda clown. Jordan was also hugely responsible for his team success, thus being the team leader, thus winning 6 finals MVP's.

ALSO, JORDAN WAS THE MAIN TARGET OF ALL THESE DEFENSES. DOUBLE TEAMS, TRIPLE TEAMS, TRAPS, COLLAPSING THE PAINT, YOU NAME IT.

He doesn't even read it
:confusedshrug:

[bruceblitz]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Xd7W6OPSCuI/SKx1ovWxhNI/AAAAAAAAA5A/w7sFbS9rB5g/s400/michael_jordan_trophy_rings.jpg

:cheers:

[catch24]

Alborz get a f'n life you Kobe stalker

[Samurai Swoosh]

Kobe has led his team to several winning records without Shaq.

All five of Jordan's Pippen-less teams had losing records.

Jordan never even made the all -defensive team until Pippen and Horace Grant arrived in Chicago and stated playing defense. Jordan received much of the credit for the Bulls' improved defense even though he was there when they also sucked.

Jordan also never made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen. Kobe has made it to the NBA finals without Shaq. Jordan's career W/L playoff record without Scottie was 1 win and 10 losses.


facts are facts

bruce blitz = nothing but Biased/Wrong stats
This is just full of all kinds of funny. So much so I can't even take it seriously.

[bruceblitz]

1983 Bulls 28 wins
1984 Bulls 27 wins (Brutal team, Bulls suck)
1985 Bulls 38 wins (Jordan joins team, team never misses the playoffs again with MJ on roster)
1986 Bulls 30 wins (Jordan missed most of season with injury)
1987 Bulls 40 wins (Jordan back, Bulls continue to improve with Jordan as leader)
1988 Bulls 50 wins (Jordan's leadership gets the Bulls to 50 wins)
1989 Bulls 47 wins (Pippen becomes a starter, Jordan takes Pippen under his wing)
1990 Bulls 55 wins (Jordan's leadership is starting to really show now)
1991 Bulls 61 wins (Jordan leads team to the first NBA championship, wins finals MVP)
1992 Bulls 67 wins (Jordan leads team to the second NBA title, wins finals MVP)
1993 Bulls 57 wins (Jordan leads team to the third NBA title, wins finals MVP)
1994 Bulls 55 wins (great regular season leadership by Pippen, Bulls fall in playoffs, no championship without Mike)
1995 Bulls 47 wins (Bulls struggle to stay above .500, Pippen is struggling with the leadership role and makes comments in the local media that it was "easier when Jordan was here". Pippen is seen on the bench pointing at his Jordan's shoe making reference that he wants Jordan to come back. Jordan says "Im back" MJ returns towards the end of the season and the Bulls win 76% of the rest of their games with Mike on the roster)
1996 Bulls 72 wins (Jordan finally back in basketball shape, Jordan leads the Bulls to the best record in NBA history, and the fourth NBA championship, adding a 4th finals MVP to his trophy case)
1997 Bulls 69 wins (As you can see, with Jordan back as the team leader, the Bulls were clearly dominant, win 5th NBA championship, Jordan wins 5th Finals MVP)
1998 Bulls 62 wins (Pippen misses half of the season, Pippen was not 100% all year, and he was not 100% in the playoffs, Pippen was suffering from multiple injuries but Jordan led the teams to 62 wins, and a sixth NBA championship, winning his 6th Finals MVP)
1999 Bulls win 13 games (Jordan and Pippen gone, Jerry Krause exposed as an idiot)

Notice, the Bulls never missed the playoffs with Jordan on the roster. A Kobe Bryant fan likes to ignore the fact that the first year that Shaq left the Lakers, Kobe didn't make the playoffs. Also, Jordan proved that when he had a good enough supporting cast around him to make it to the NBA Finals, he never lost, 6 titles in 6 trys. Kobe on the other hand lost in the Finals when Shaq was still on the team, D Wade 2 years later won a championship against Dallas, who was featuring the league's MVP, and D Wade averaged 38 points per game to pull the Heat over the finish line. That is true Jordanesque type play. Kobe also lost in the Finals in 2008 with the Lakers who were FAVORED to win the championship that year by 2 out of every 3 "experts".
Bottom line, Kobe is nowhere near MJ status.

This is what Kobe's Finals MVP trophy case looks like:

http://www.advantagefixtures.com/jpgs/productline/trophycases/wallcasesdtr70.jpg

Also, Pippen never out-performed Michael Jordan in even 1 finals series or 1 playoff series. Shaq on the other hand upstaged Kobe every time out.

Shaq carried Kobe(I suspect that's why Shaq wanted to take this pic):
http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/shaq-and-kobe.jpg

Why this moron thinks showing Bill Russell's ring count has anything to do with his Kobe argument is beyond me.

:confusedshrug:
Didn't read this either.

[juju151111]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/kobe.gif
Kobe isn't the Greatest laker. Magic,shaq>kobe

[juju151111]

bruce = hardcore jordan jocker


Jordan jocker= One who started watching basketball around the time NIKE introduced Air Jordans. Got their basketball education by watching ESPN highlights and Inside Stuff with Ahmad Rashad. Because their NBA knowledge is limited at best, they BLINDLY go around saying that Michael Jordan was the greatest player in history, despite having nothing to back up that statement
You still have not answered the choking question *****? lol just proves your a hater.

[catch24]

Kobe without a great/dominant center = no playoffs, and multiple first round eliminations (2004-07)

Kobe gets a dominant center, still loses in the finals. Nothing new though, '04 had one that averaged 60%+ and 24ppg in the finals.

Kobe with a dominant center = 5 final appearances. Without? Zero!

Kobe where having 4 hoFers and still choking in the finals happens.

[bruceblitz]

Kobe without a great/dominant center = first round elimination (2004-07)

Kobe gets a dominant center, still loses in the finals. Nothing new though, '04 had one that averaged 60%+ and 24ppg in the finals.

Kobe where having 4 hoFers and still choking in the finals happens.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this is coming from a huge Kobe fan

[Alpha Wolf]

The reason some people say Jordan is the best is because there has been no athlete in the past two decades who has been more over-hyped, more promoted, and more marketed than Michael Jordan. He could not possibly live up to those standards. Between movies, shoes, cereal boxes, fast food and everything else he's advertised, who hasn't heard of Michael Jordan ?


He came along at just the right time. David Stern became commissioner and heavily marketed the NBA to corporate America.

[catch24]

lol bruce

Alborz = cooked on the grill

[bruceblitz]

The reason some people say Jordan is the best is because there has been no athlete in the past two decades who has been more over-hyped, more promoted, and more marketed than Michael Jordan. He could not possibly live up to those standards. Between movies, shoes, cereal boxes, fast food and everything else he's advertised, who hasn't heard of Michael Jordan ?


He came along at just the right time. David Stern became commissioner and heavily marketed the NBA to corporate America.

Everyone knows that Kobe has been overhyped and overrated by the media for being a style jocking biting Jordan wanna be when he doesn't have the same type of domination Jordan had (MVP's, Finals MVP's, scoring titles, scoring efficiency, defensive player of the year awards, etc etc)

People like Alpha Wolf prove that there are some Kobe Bryant fans who will do anything to prove their love for him online. Us realistic NBA fans who have a pet peeve with this type of behavior are forced to debunk his crap over and over and over again. He's only posted the same 3-4 arguments, which are loaded with propaganda, about 300 times on this website now, while the rest of us have hit him with real facts, that he ignores over and over and over and over and over again.

STOP CALLING THEM "KOBE'S RINGS"
Kobe's NBA Finals Stats vs Shaq's NBA Finals Stats
1999-2000 vs Indiana Pacers
shaq 38ppg 16rpg 2apg 61%FG
Kobe 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 36%FG
2000-2001 vs Philadelphia
Shaq 33ppg 15rpg 4apg 57%FG
Kobe 24ppg 7rpg 5apg 41%FG
2001-2002 vs New Jersey Nets
Shaq 36ppg 12rpg 3apg 59%FG
Kobe 26ppg 5rpg 5apg 51%FG
2004 vs Detroit
Shaq 26ppg 10rpg 1apg 63%FG
Kobe 22ppg 2rpg 4apg 38%FG
In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy.
In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor.
In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, a record which has never been threatened.
In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.
In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.
In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.
Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards. Kobe Bryant has been involved in 3 out of 5 championships based on Finals apperances with Shaq winning Finals MVP in every championship.

As far as Mr. Bryant, in 5 trys in the Finals he's impressed me 1 time.

[RapsFan]

Anyone who says Kobe simply never watched Jordan. They are probably under 20 years old and haven't been watching hoops for more then 10 years. Nothing wrong with being young but that also explains why most of the Prime Kobe fans are unreasonable.

If I am arguing with someone who tells me Wilt is better then Shaq, when they have had the opportunity to watch both play, then I listen to their opinion. I don't spout off about it because I have limited knowledge of Wilt's game outside of reading numbers.

[bruceblitz]

lol bruce

Alborz = cooked on the grill

You gotta love the pathetic attempt to use Pippen and Bill Russell to prop up Kobe.

[juju151111]

The reason some people say Jordan is the best is because there has been no athlete in the past two decades who has been more over-hyped, more promoted, and more marketed than Michael Jordan. He could not possibly live up to those standards. Between movies, shoes, cereal boxes, fast food and everything else he's advertised, who hasn't heard of Michael Jordan ?


He came along at just the right time. David Stern became commissioner and heavily marketed the NBA to corporate America.
yea i am sure it didn't have anything to do with his game,5mvps,6 titles,10 scoring record,defense, etc... I guest people most of only been watching his commercials and movies to see his BB skills. Here a little fact MJ FINALS RATINGS ARE THE HIGHEST SO PEOPLE WATCHED AND SAW HIM DOMINATE. I know the tv ratings for kobe is down because they cant bother watching a player choke. You still have not answered the choking question *****.

[bruceblitz]

yea i am sure it didn't have anything to do with his game,5mvps,6 titles,10 scoring record,defense, etc... I guest people most of only been watching his commercials and movies to see his BB skills. Here a little fact MJ FINALS RATINGS ARE THE HIGHEST SO PEOPLE WATCHED AND SAW HIM DOMINATE. I know the tv ratings for kobe is down because they cant bother watching a player choke. You still have not answered the choking question *****.

He doesn't respond to posts, have you noticed that? It's a continuous circle of propaganda. Non-responsive propaganda.

[catch24]

I bet Alpha Wolf hasn't ever even had enough money in his pocket at one time to buy Kobe's Nike Zoom Kobe 4's let alone any other of Kobe's products. He probably wishes he could get a job as a hotel clerk in Colorado, screw that, he'd rather be a hotel clerk in every town Kobe goes to in hopes of getting it on with his man crush.

lmfao!!

[juju151111]

He doesn't respond to posts, have you noticed that? It's a continuous circle of propaganda. Non-responsive propaganda.
He will never respond to the question because he knows he will lose the argument. He just like pah.

[catch24]

http://static1.videosift.com/thumbs/u/lt/Ultimate_Real_Life_Horrorshow_Bjorks_Stalker.jpg

AlphaWolf, Kobe's #1 Stalker

[bruceblitz]

http://static1.videosift.com/thumbs/u/lt/Ultimate_Real_Life_Horrorshow_Bjorks_Stalker.jpg

AlphaWolf, Kobe's #1 Stalker

:roll: :oldlol: :roll:
:cheers:

[Juges8932]

It is people like Alpha troll that make us Kobe fans look bad. Just ****ing stop already.

[catch24]

Pretty much dude

[bruceblitz]

[QUOTE=Alpha Wolf]I know it hard for you to handle he truth but Jordan is the most overrated player in NBA history I know you worship him like he's Jesus Christ but get over it seriously you sound like a pissed off foster child who's been molested by your gay uncle in your family one too many times and afraid to tell the truth about your escapades with other homos.

You

[bruceblitz]

:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvJywRV9P0w :D

[juju151111]

I know it hard for you to handle he truth but Jordan is the most overrated player in NBA history I know you worship him like he's Jesus Christ but get over it seriously you sound like a pissed off foster child who's been molested by your gay uncle in your family one too many times and afraid to tell the truth about your escapades with other homos.

You?ll never get the real picture ahead because your in the wrong frame of mind. And your frame of mind pictures homos galore, that too fu*king sensitive, allergic to v@gina, wet dreams about gay celebs, and plenty years of getting banged by every f@ggot member of your family once, twice and three times removed.

So go choke on the dick with AIDS on the tip that?s screwing you and have a coke and a smile..
Skip my question again i see.

[gpfanz]

[QUOTE=Alpha Wolf]So go choke on the dick with AIDS on the tip that

[Alpha Wolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97HB6GJb3WQ

[catch24]

[QUOTE=Alpha Wolf]I know it hard for me to handle the truth but Kobe is the most overrated player in NBA history I know I worship him like he's Jesus Christ but I have to get over it seriously I am a pissed off foster child who's been molested by my gay uncle in the family one too many times and afraid to tell the truth about my escapades with other homos.

I

[juju151111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97HB6GJb3WQ
Answer the question:D come on you can do it.

[bruceblitz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCRre3nX88g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JQfOoDigmk

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5664/1546985660msj7.gif

[Duncan21formvp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97HB6GJb3WQ

Kobe at his peak defense

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjcPCSgpoZM&feature=PlayList&p=F40D8EB48C849B1E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=13

[catch24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOo9EcbraW0

2:00

[bruceblitz]

Anyone else notice they keep removing Alpha Wolf's posts. I bet he gets an I.P. ban just like Alborz did. Offers nothing but non-factual propaganda. ISH's collective basketball IQ is about 45 points lower because he's still on here.

Anyways......

Kobe (0 finals MVP's in 5 trys)
Jordan (6 finals MVP's in 6 trys)

Kobe's batting .000 in Finals MVP's attempts.

Jordan's batting 1.000 in Finals MVP's attempts.

[Alpha Wolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLVF9upRGyU



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1FrfwXVkqg

[Samurai Swoosh]

Kobe at his peak defense

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjcPCSgpoZM&feature=PlayList&p=F40D8EB48C849B1E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=13
:rolleyes:

Someone could very easily post a GIF of Iverson breaking MJ's ankles or when Grant Hill did it on a fast break.

This is such an immature and idiotic approach. EVERYONE gets crossed up or scored on at some point in their career. Especially on the NBA level.

What makes someone a good defender is the fact that they aren't scared of being crossed over, or scored on. And if it does happen, and it will if you attempt to be a real warrior and play defense, they shake it off mentally and come right back for more, and say "let me see you do it again"

THAT'S a defender. Thats a warrior's mentality.

Is Kobe as good of a defender as Jordan? No. But he's definetely an elite defender. And he's actually willing to get dirty and play defense. Such few swingmen who are willing to do it now, let alone star caliber players. Using this video as means to say Kobe isn't a good defender is ****ing remedial.

[bruceblitz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCRre3nX88g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JQfOoDigmk

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5664/1546985660msj7.gif

These two videos TORCH anything anyone could ever post for Kobe.
:D :oldlol: :D

[Alpha Wolf]

Anyone else notice they keep removing Alpha Wolf's posts. I bet he gets an I.P. ban just like Alborz did. Offers nothing but non-factual propaganda. ISH's collective basketball IQ is about 45 points lower because he's still on here.

Anyways......

Kobe (0 finals MVP's in 5 trys)
Jordan (6 finals MVP's in 6 trys)

Kobe's batting .000 in Finals MVP's attempts.

Jordan's batting 1.000 in Finals MVP's attempts.


:sleeping

its not that hard to change your ip

[catch24]

rofl

[bruceblitz]

Hell, my D Wade mix smashes almost every Kobe mix I've ever seen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1SKFntjMYE

[bruceblitz]

:sleeping

its not that hard to change your ip

lol his new banner reads
"I exaggerate unfairly against Jordan"

That's your warning from the mods buddy, lol!

[PoGoMon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLVF9upRGyU



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1FrfwXVkqg

Anyways...... this about says it all, don't ya think - "THINK" is the operative word there?

Kobe (0 finals MVP's in 5 trys)
Jordan (6 finals MVP's in 6 trys)

Kobe's batting .000 in Finals MVP's attempts.

Jordan's batting 1.000 in Finals MVP's attempts.

[Alpha Wolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGmMx8Ejrw :oldlol:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO970T1YBHk :rockon:

[bruceblitz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGmMx8Ejrw :oldlol:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO970T1YBHk :rockon:

That's easy to smash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfSipCWSfYA

Damn LeBron > Kobe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCmnczu9YhA

LEBRON 4 MVP!

[Samurai Swoosh]

That's easy to smash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfSipCWSfYA

Damn LeBron > Kobe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCmnczu9YhA

LEBRON 4 MVP!
You however give Chi-town kats a bad name. Chill out man, you're like a poster on speed.

[bruceblitz]

You however give Chi-town kats a bad name. Chill out man, you're like a poster on speed.

It's the ginseng man, lol.

Sorry man, but I think LeBron is the better all around player. If you disagree I wont argue with you, but hey, it's a matter of opinion.

The GOAT title goes to Jordan by a widely popular consensus and acclamation of accolades and sustained domination.

[Samurai Swoosh]

It's the ginseng man, lol.

Sorry man, but I think LeBron is the better all around player. If you disagree I wont argue with you, but hey, it's a matter of opinion.

The GOAT title goes to Jordan by a widely popular consensus and acclamation of accolades and sustained domination.
I too think LeBron is the better all around player, and yes Jordan is the NEO of the NBA and the League's history.

But just as Alpha goes off his rocker with Kobe love, you go into outer space with Kobe hate. He's still one of the best players of all-time to lace 'em up. Whether you like him or not.

[bruceblitz]

You however give Chi-town kats a bad name. Chill out man, you're like a poster on speed.

I've never liked the name "Chi-town". Me and most of my friends agree that only outsiders call this great city a town, but that's trivial.

[bruceblitz]

I too think LeBron is the better all around player, and yes Jordan is the NEO of the NBA and the League's history.

But just as Alpha goes off his rocker with Kobe love, you go into outer space with Kobe hate. He's still one of the best players of all-time to lace 'em up. Whether you like him or not.
Well, I don't know how much you know about my opinions but I have Kobe in my top 10 perimeter players list of all time. Top 3 shooting guard, depending on where you rank Jerry West. Yes, he's one of the all time greats. He's also one of the most exciting and flashy players ever. The bottom line is that your legacy is based on actual results. Sustained excellence in the results. We all know that though. Some people fall for the flash.

[bruceblitz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCRre3nX88g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JQfOoDigmk

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5664/1546985660msj7.gif

Everyone take a few minutes and check those out for me.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I've never liked the name "Chi-town". Me and most of my friends agree that only outsiders call this great city a town, but that's trivial.
I refer to it Chicago in many ways. "the Go", "the Chi", or with my friends "home" because its established we all live in the same city. So didn't really understand the point of this issue ... but w/e.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Well, I don't know how much you know about my opinions but I have Kobe in my top 10 perimeter players list of all time. Top 3 shooting guard, depending on where you rank Jerry West. Yes, he's one of the all time greats. He's also one of the most exciting and flashy players ever. The bottom line is that your legacy is based on actual results. Sustained excellence in the results. We all know that though. Some people fall for the flash.
I totally agree.

[PoGoMon]

I too think LeBron is the better all around player, and yes Jordan is the NEO of the NBA and the League's history.

But just as Alpha goes off his rocker with Kobe love, you go into outer space with Kobe hate. He's still one of the best players of all-time to lace 'em up. Whether you like him or not.

I don't think any rational poster is saying Kobe is NOT one of the best all time players in the NBA! I also give him his due - but I sure as hell don't think he is perfection on the court. (Meaning - in case you cannot decipher - he makes no mistakes and he is better than Jordan!)

What we are saying is this: Put the KobeLove into perspective or at least try to - according to whatever ageless wisdom one MIGHT possess.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I don't think any rational poster is saying Kobe is NOT one of the best all time players in the NBA! I also give him his due - but I sure as hell don't think he is perfection on the court. (Meaning - in case you cannot decipher - he makes no mistakes and he is better than Jordan!)

What we are saying is this: Put the KobeLove into perspective or at least try to - according to whatever ageless wisdom one MIGHT possess.
I was saying the same thing. But they way you two were going about making your point was by trashing Kobe Bryant. Instead of proving why MJ was undeniably superior. Which he was.

[PoGoMon]

I was saying the same thing. But they way you two were going about making your point was by trashing Kobe Bryant. Instead of proving why MJ was undeniably superior. Which he was.


Me - trash Kobe? You must be smoking something rare, sonny.:pimp:

How about this - for instance?

Decent playground baller

PoGoMon's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 372
PoGoMon has an OK reputation so far

Default Re: Will Kobe set a career best at FG%?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel J
Kobe's past 8 games not including tonights game

Past 8 games:

3/17 - 5-15 33%
3/19 - 9-25 36%
3/21 - 10-25 40%
3/24 - 6-18 33%
3/26 - 10-18 55%
3/27 - 5-19 26%
3/29 - 7-19 37%
3/31 - 11-28 39%


Most importantly - how many games did the LA Lakers win during that 8 game stretch?

[bruceblitz]

I was saying the same thing. But they way you two were going about making your point was by trashing Kobe Bryant. Instead of proving why MJ was undeniably superior. Which he was.

If you look at 85% of the substance I posted on here it was relative to Jordan's domination only. Sure I pointed out Kobe's struggles and shortcomings, which is what creates the separation. I totally understand that all perimeter players will always be compared to Jordan because he's the standard barrier. It's propping up Kobe on a pedestal that I have a problem with. Like I said the results just don't allow logical fans to do such a thing.

btw, the whole Chi-town thing isn't a big deal. Just something I've talked about with friends for years. Kind of like fans from other cities who call their team "Da Raptors" or "Da Lakers" when the term "Da" refers to the Chicago accent. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about too. Even outsiders have to have seen the Saturday night live skits. Just listen to Mike North, (I'm sure you've seen him on Comcast or heard him on 670 the score), Mike North's accent is case-in-point.

[bruceblitz]

It's official, Alpha Wolf was banned, now I can go back and delete a few of my posts.

To the mods who finally banned that guy:
http://persistentillusion.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/thank-you.jpg

Now we don't have to debunk his propaganda.

Everyone enjoy the holiday weekend!!!

[LA_Showtime]

I'll rep anyone who can find 5 different posters who said that Kobe > Jordan. They can't be the same person with 5 different names though.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Me - trash Kobe? You must be smoking something rare, sonny.:pimp:
I really wasn't talking about you. The real conversation was between Blitz and I, and there was a few other rugrats posting nonsense instead of proving why they think Jordan was superior.

As for you? I don't even know who the hell you are, you're obviously new to the boards.

But if you call me "sonny" again, I'm going to have to spank you.

:pimp:

[Maniak]

Bruce is one of my favorite posters on ISH. He stops at nothing to show that MJ is a GOAT, and will assure the trolls get a mouthful.

Props to you, and thanks for helping to get Alpha Troll banned :cheers:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I want to put all this nonsensical "Kobe = Jordan" or "Kobe > Jordan" stuff to rest. Here's a taste of what will be coming; I will be adding to this topic as I have time to. To start with, I'll use Shaq's 3 year peak and Duncan's 3 year peak as an example. Most Laker/Kobe fans will agree that prime Shaq was significantly more dominant than prime Duncan, yet these same people don't realize (or don't want to admit) that Jordan's prime was actually even further beyond Kobe's prime than Shaq's was above Duncan's.


lol.
:roll:

proof that Loki loses sleep over this non-issue.
Kobe is a 1st ballet HOFer. end of issue.

you wanna worry about GOAT status??? worry about Lebron!

[bruceblitz]

Bruce is one of my favorite posters on ISH. He stops at nothing to show that MJ is a GOAT, and will assure the trolls get a mouthful.

Props to you, and thanks for helping to get Alpha Troll banned :cheers:

Thank you, that is kind of you. I wish I didn't have to debunk such non-sense, but oh well.

[DonDadda59]

Bruce is one of my favorite posters on ISH. He stops at nothing to show that MJ is a GOAT, and will assure the trolls get a mouthful.

Props to you, and thanks for helping to get Alpha Troll banned :cheers:

The man's a tireless spreader of knowledge, it's too bad Alborz is just going to come back with another name and start this **** up again. Be on the lookout for that :rolleyes: ...

[Da_Realist]

:rolleyes:

What makes someone a good defender is the fact that they aren't scared of being crossed over, or scored on. And if it does happen, and it will if you attempt to be a real warrior and play defense, they shake it off mentally and come right back for more, and say "let me see you do it again"

THAT'S a defender. Thats a warrior's mentality.


Very true. :applause:

[Da_Realist]

btw, the whole Chi-town thing isn't a big deal. Just something I've talked about with friends for years. Kind of like fans from other cities who call their team "Da Raptors" or "Da Lakers" when the term "Da" refers to the Chicago accent. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about too. Even outsiders have to have seen the Saturday night live skits. Just listen to Mike North, (I'm sure you've seen him on Comcast or heard him on 670 the score), Mike North's accent is case-in-point.

Actually, I chose my nickname as a reference to this Chicago accent and all my family that lives there. :cheers:

[guy]

This is a very ridiculous comparison at this point. I don't get how anyone can say Kobe > Jordan with a legit argument. As far as skills go, the only thing Kobe has an edge on Jordan is 3pt shooting, while Jordan has the advantage in everything else whilel also having a much greater impact. Jordan's accolades trump Kobe's. He has more championships and played a bigger role on all of those teams. Jordan has never mentally shrunk in big game situations, while Kobe has numerous times. This shouldnt be a debate. Kobe's career is actually the same length now as Jordan's pre-Wizards career, and he arguably has not accomplished even half of what Jordan did.