How would you define "pure shooter"?? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 08:51 PM

Is it just a nice sounding way of saying "great shooter"??

Someone who's really good at catching and shooting or coming off a screen, rather than creating his own shot?

When you rank pure shooters, to me it has a lot to do with form. Shooting form. Other factors come into it, but shooting form has a lot to do with it, in my opinion. Kind of like Glen Rice and Dale Ellis, those were pure shooters.

Reggie Miller was a great shooter, but just go watch footage of his goofy form, most people don't call him a "pure shooter". I'd bet you get more people who call Ray Allen a pure shooter before they would Reggie Miller. Even though I found a flaw in Ray Allen's form....

DuMa

04-13-2009, 08:54 PM

near all-star or allstar worthy mentions because of one single thing, your ability to hit open shots

Al Thornton

04-13-2009, 08:55 PM

Great shooter, or someone who's game revolves almost completely around shooting the basketball.

You know the Reggie Millers, the Ray Allens, and now OJ Mayo.

D.J.

04-13-2009, 08:57 PM

To me, a pure shooter is someone who excels at that aspect of the game. For them, shooting is second nature(ex: Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Dale Ellis). Shooting is the strongest aspect of their game and many times, it is their only strength.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 08:58 PM

Great shooter, or someone who's game revolves almost completely around shooting the basketball.

You know the Reggie Millers, the Ray Allens, and now OJ Mayo.

Reggie Miller's game didn't revolve completely around shooting the ball or almost completely. Just watch who he crosses over in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbyVNr4BBlQ

People always forget that Reggie Miller was a playground type player. Not a pure shooter. We could go around the horn 100 times with this one. He was a great shooter, but not pure shooter in my book.

west

04-13-2009, 08:59 PM

Shooting at least 90% from the FT at least once in their career?FT is fundamental and form of course

AirJordan23

04-13-2009, 09:01 PM

1. Shooting form
2. Release
3. Fundamentally sound
4. % on your 3 pointers, FTs and mid range Js.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 09:01 PM

1. Shooting form
2. Release
3. Fundamentally sound
4. % on your 3 pointers, FTs and mid range Js.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:02 PM

when the shot is so sweet you want to grab it by the hips and f**k the s**t out of it... that's when you're witnessing a pure shooter at work.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 09:03 PM

when the shot is so sweet you want to grab it by the hips and f**k the s**t out of it... that's when you're witnessing a pure shooter at work.
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

west

04-13-2009, 09:03 PM

when the shot is so sweet you want to grab it by the hips and f**k the s**t out of it... that's when you're witnessing a pure shooter at work.
I remember your "fu#k with Ray Allen's jumper" post:oldlol:

pete's montreux

04-13-2009, 09:03 PM

A pure shooter is someone who can shoot in any situation.

Three pointers
Mid Range
In between game [floaters]
Fade away
off balance shots
coming off screens or picks
off the dribble

etc.

nbastatus

04-13-2009, 09:05 PM

when the shot is so sweet you want to grab it by the hips and f**k the s**t out of it... that's when you're witnessing a pure shooter at work.
oh. ray allen.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:06 PM

I remember your "fu#k with Ray Allen's jumper" post:oldlol:

if only i could get his jumper away from him... i need a wingman to distract him for a few so i could get some alone time with that shot...

AirJordan23

04-13-2009, 09:07 PM

when the shot is so sweet you want to grab it by the hips and f**k the s**t out of it... that's when you're witnessing a pure shooter at work.
No homo?

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:09 PM

A pure shooter is someone who can shoot in any situation.

Three pointers
Mid Range
In between game [floaters]
Fade away
off balance shots
coming off screens or picks
off the dribble

etc.

if you're specifying getting the jump shot off under all those circumstances, but without changing the form of the shot itself, i would be inclined to agree. there are other guys who have a more broad range of shots that they use, and they cycle between them depending on where they're operating. for reference: bernard king, charles barkley--great scorers, but not pure shooters as such.

dnyk1337

04-13-2009, 09:09 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwJQf3i9oVY !!

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:09 PM

No homo?

definitely no homo. i said the SHOT, not the player. hahahaha

krazy19

04-13-2009, 09:12 PM

Michael Redd? From what I've seen of him, all he does is shoot.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:16 PM

hey, Ray Allen's Jump Shot... if you're out there listening, baby... i've got a little something i want to say, and... i hope you know this comes from the heart.

Ray don't love you like i'd love you, baby... you fine, sweet thang, and... i just wanna get next to you, to love you like you need to be loved. you mean the world to me, and that's real.

Ray Allen's Jump Shot, this song goes out to you... give it a listen, and uh... if you ever decide to leave that man, you and i can make sweet music of our own, baby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18TLHhhHZCA

think about it... aaaaawwwwwww, yyyyeeeeeeaaaahhhhhhh.... mmmmhhhmmmmm....

Stringer Bell

04-13-2009, 09:17 PM

When you rank pure shooters, to me it has a lot to do with form. Shooting form. Other factors come into it, but shooting form has a lot to do with it, in my opinion. Kind of like Glen Rice and Dale Ellis, those were pure shooters.

Reggie Miller was a great shooter, but just go watch footage of his goofy form, most people don't call him a "pure shooter". I'd bet you get more people who call Ray Allen a pure shooter before they would Reggie Miller. Even though I found a flaw in Ray Allen's form....

I've always thought of Reggie as a "pure shooter" and have heard him being called that, despite his technically flawed form.

Killbot

04-13-2009, 09:18 PM

How do you f*ck a jumpshot without looking like you're trying to do Allen? :lol

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:21 PM

How do you f*ck a jumpshot without looking like you're trying to do Allen? :lol

where there's a will, there's a way.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 09:22 PM

I've always thought of Reggie as a "pure shooter" and have heard him being called that, despite his technically flawed form.

Oh I agree, some people would rank him as that because his outside shot was so consistent. That being said, for me a pure shooter is someone who displays a "pure" shot with "pure" form. I've never seen anyone else with the type of form that Larry Bird and Reggie Miller use. Players like Dale Ellis, Glen Rice, and Ray Allen show text book form, for the most part.

It's all in the eye of the beholder.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:26 PM

Oh I agree, some people would rank him as that because his outside shot was so consistent. That being said, for me a pure shooter is someone who displays a "pure" shot with "pure" form. I've never seen anyone else with the type of form that Larry Bird and Reggie Miller use. Players like Dale Ellis, Glen Rice, and Ray Allen show text book form, for the most part.

It's all in the eye of the beholder.

agreed for the most part.

dirk has elements of bird's form in his shot--the ball coming high above his head, with his shooting arm elbow out in front of his head, protecting the ball (and making it hard as f**k to block without fouling). they also twist their strong side a bit farther in front of them than a lot of shooters.

reggie... his shooting hand was fairly textbook... made the right angles at elbow and wrist, etc... but he pulled it up in front of his face, and that guide hand REALLY got retarded.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 09:36 PM

agreed for the most part.

dirk has elements of bird's form in his shot--the ball coming high above his head, with his shooting arm elbow out in front of his head, protecting the ball (and making it hard as f**k to block without fouling). they also twist their strong side a bit farther in front of them than a lot of shooters.

reggie... his shooting hand was fairly textbook... made the right angles at elbow and wrist, etc... but he pulled it up in front of his face, and that guide hand REALLY got retarded.

dude, he pushes the ball with both hands and his wrists almost end up touching each other in his ugly ass follow through. I'm not trying to turn this into a debate, but he had goofy ass form. I agree on the Dirk opinion though. Bird and Dirk's shot form was closer to text book than Reggie Miller's, that's not saying much. Let me see if I can find a good closeup of Reggie's jacked up form.

pete's montreux

04-13-2009, 09:37 PM

I don't really see the problem with someone having an unusual form. If it goes in, it goes in. :confusedshrug:

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:38 PM

dude, he pushes the ball with both hands and his wrists almost end up touching each other in his ugly ass follow through. I'm not trying to turn this into a debate, but he had goofy ass form. I agree on the Dirk opinion though. Bird and Dirk's shot form was closer to text book than Reggie Miller's, that's not saying much. Let me see if I can find a good closeup of Reggie's jacked up form.

http://www.nba.com/media/act_reggie_miller.jpg

that's not pushing off with both hands, it's having a jacked up guide hand mechanic, like i said.

if he tucks his shooting elbow in, his strong hand is virtually textbook. the guide hand is what f**ks up the whole thing when you look at it.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 09:40 PM

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 09:45 PM

http://www.nba.com/media/act_reggie_miller.jpg

that's not pushing off with both hands, it's having a jacked up guide hand mechanic, like i said.

if he tucks his shooting elbow in, his strong hand is virtually textbook. the guide hand is what f**ks up the whole thing when you look at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rdewOuEL4o
Ok, what I want you to do, is pay close attention at the 1:20 mark, but watch the entire video, he even looks to be pushing just as hard with his left hand as his right hand. This is a good HQ video, forget what language it's in, his shooting form was jacked up. With repetition and practice he became very effective even with the jacked up shooting form, but, it's ugly man. He pushed the ball HARD with his left thumb/hand every time he shoots the ball and almost turns his hands inward. Terrible follow through.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:46 PM

I'm seriously wondering how much of Reggie Miller's career you saw.

all of it.

visualize his shot with his shoulder, elbow, and wrist in line so that the ball isn't above his head, or pushing his elbow out to the side. that arm then becomes textbook.

he certainly wasn't pushing off with that guide hand, and this is how his shot looked unless he had to make adjustments due to contests.

http://www.youth-basketball-tips.com/images/reggie2.jpg

http://www.youth-basketball-tips.com/images/Reggie1.jpg

in this one, you actually see his guide hand *falling away* from the ball...

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/04/02/sports/04reggie.jpg

and in this one, the end result after the hand has fallen away, which shows the guide hand nowhere near the point of release...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/photos/basketball/19miller.jpg

how much of his career did YOU see?

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 09:48 PM

all of it.

visualize his shot with his shoulder, elbow, and wrist in line so that the ball isn't above his head, or pushing his elbow out to the side. that arm then becomes textbook.

he certainly wasn't pushing off with that guide hand, and this is how his shot looked unless he had to make adjustments due to contests.

http://www.youth-basketball-tips.com/images/reggie2.jpg

http://www.youth-basketball-tips.com/images/Reggie1.jpg
^^^^OMG THAT IS UGLY!!^^^^
in this one, you actually see his guide hand *falling away* from the ball...

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/04/02/sports/04reggie.jpg

and in this one, the end result after the hand has fallen away, which shows the guide hand nowhere near the point of release...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/photos/basketball/19miller.jpg
^^^^SEE THE FOLLOW THROUGH WITH HIS LEFT THUMB? THAT'S BECAUSE HE PUSHED IT WITH THE LEFT THUMB. BAD FORM.

how much of his career did YOU see?
Instead of turning this into a who's the better fan, notice how far his shooting elbow is kicked out in the third from the bottom picture. That's ugly ass form, UGLY AS SIN! Now watch the video I posted for you. The elbow isn't lined up pre-shot, he uses both hands to shoot the ball (especially the left thumb), follow through is brutal, hands end up touching each other.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:49 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rdewOuEL4o
Ok, what I want you to do, is pay close attention at the 1:20 mark, but watch the entire video, he even looks to be pushing just as hard with his left hand as his right hand. This is a good HQ video, forget what language it's in, his shooting form was jacked up. With repetition and practice he became very effective even with the jacked up shooting form, but, it's ugly man. He pushed the ball HARD with his left thumb/hand every time he shoots the ball and almost turns his hands inward. Terrible follow through.

i watched the vid, and i'm telling you, that is NOT pushing off with the off hand. the shooting hand does the pushing in his shot, the guide hand just follows it--or are you actually trying to suggest that the hand on the top/side of the ball is catapaulting the shot, despite evidence (in photo and a billion vids) to the contrary?

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 09:50 PM

i watched the vid, and i'm telling you, that is NOT pushing off with the off hand. the shooting hand does the pushing in his shot, the guide hand just follows it--or are you actually trying to suggest that the hand on the top/side of the ball is catapaulting the shot, despite evidence (in photo and a billion vids) to the contrary?
Too bad I pointed out in your pictures the flaws. He pushes the ball hard with the left thumb, his elbow is kicked out pre-shot, and his follow through is brutal. That being said, he was still one of the most effective shooters ever. Not a pure shooter though. Just a great shooter.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 09:56 PM

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 09:58 PM

LOL i didn't say the shot wasn't ugly as hell. i've even said that the off hand is all f**ked up repeatedly in this. the issue we're haggling over is basically the function of the off hand in his shot. you're saying he's actually *pushing* with it, i'm arguing that it's just jacked up follow-through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppm6tQqv1rs&feature=related

A: his right elbow is kicked out when he's setting up his shot
B: he pushes the ball with his left thumb hard
C: when his follow through is complete both hands end up touching each other

BRUTAL form. It's crazy how effective he was shooting like that.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 10:02 PM

[QUOTE]
........unorthodox shooting form, such as Reggie Miller

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 10:05 PM

he just has f**ked up follow through with that hand.

WRONG. He was one of the most unorthodoxed shooters of all time.

You would never hand a kid a tape of Reggie Miller's shooting form and tell them to emulate it.

As I've said from the beginning, he has 3 flaws.

1: Right elbow is not in line with the shot, it's kicked out (this was LeBron's flaw when he came into the league, but he's corrected it)

2: He pushes the ball with his left thumb, hard.

3: Both hands end up touching each other on the follow through, a big no no.

It's ok to say you were wrong. His shot form is brutal, and not even close to text book.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 10:05 PM

http://lowposts.com/ugly-shots/

backtrack.

seriously.

repeated references to his elbow being too far out, the ball being above his head, the guide arm having jacked up follow through... and yet you repeatedly act as though i'm running around saying reggie = pure form.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 10:07 PM

backtrack.

seriously.

repeated references to his elbow being too far out, the ball being above his head, the guide arm having jacked up follow through... and yet you repeatedly act as though i'm running around saying reggie = pure form.

Well, seeing as how you agree with me, I think that's the end of this non-debate.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 10:13 PM

/sigh

ok, here we go.

from my first post discussing miller's form:

"reggie... his shooting hand was fairly textbook... made the right angles at elbow and wrist, etc... but he pulled it up in front of his face, and that guide hand REALLY got retarded"

the bolded portion automatically implies an issue with arm position, and should have clued you in that when i said "made the right angles at elbow and wrist", it was in reference to the angle of bend, NOT the orientation between shooter and the basket.

from my next reply on the subject:

"if he tucks his shooting elbow in, his strong hand is virtually textbook. the guide hand is what f**ks up the whole thing when you look at it."

a reference to tucking in the elbow in order to properly orient the arm in relation to the basket.

next...:

"visualize his shot with his shoulder, elbow, and wrist in line so that the ball isn't above his head, or pushing his elbow out to the side. that arm then becomes textbook."

self explanatory.

and yet... this is a reply from you later on, basically accusing me of saying his shot was pure? you even highlight some of the SAME S**T i just pointed out while you're trying to rail against me...

"Too bad I pointed out in your pictures the flaws. He pushes the ball hard with the left thumb, his elbow is kicked out pre-shot, and his follow through is brutal. That being said, he was still one of the most effective shooters ever. Not a pure shooter though. Just a great shooter"

speechless.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 10:17 PM

/sigh

If you can't see his elbow kicked out, you're blind.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 10:21 PM

If you can't see his elbow kicked out, you're blind.

jesus christ, do you read anything? i just quoted it AGAIN, and made reference to his elbow being kicked out AGAIN in the post right above this.

post 29... and ANOTHER reference to his elbow being kicked out in post 32... and then the requote of BOTH in the reply two seconds ago...

pete's montreux

04-13-2009, 10:24 PM

Biddy, why are you arguing with that retard. Just let it go.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 10:25 PM

jesus christ, do you read anything? i just quoted it AGAIN, and made reference to his elbow being kicked out AGAIN in the post right above this.

post 29... and ANOTHER reference to his elbow being kicked out in post 32... and then the requote of BOTH in the reply two seconds ago...

The problem is that you maintain that his shooting form wasn't ugly.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 10:27 PM

The problem is that you maintain that his shooting form wasn't ugly.

quote where i say it's not ugly. i've provided repeated quotes where i've said that it WAS ugly.

bruceblitz

04-13-2009, 10:30 PM

quote where i say it's not ugly. i've provided repeated quotes where i've said that it WAS ugly.

OK, so as I said a few posts ago, this non-debate is over because we agree.

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 10:33 PM

oh, now we're reading back-posts?

just playing.

btw, pete's--thanks for the reminder about arguing. i was actually getting pissed off. silly to do over the internet. repped for the reminder to chill out.

LA_Showtime

04-13-2009, 10:36 PM

Instead of "pure shooter" the title should be "hard worker.":pimp:

pete's montreux

04-13-2009, 11:01 PM

Biddy77

04-13-2009, 11:04 PM

Not really because you were arguing, but who you were arguing with.

:cheers:

all the same, much appreciated

:cheers:

Bush4Ever

04-13-2009, 11:10 PM

I often think too much is made of shooting form.

The point is too put the ball in the basket. That's it.

A super shooter who shoots a million shots over the course of his life has probably trained his muscle memory in such a way that compensates for whatever technical hitch he has in his shot.

To me it's like what Wooden told Bill Walton:

"I won't say anything about your shot until you start missing"