why are all black QBs scramblers?

[HelterSkelter]

Randall, McNair, McNabb.. Vick, Vince Young.. almost all..

[thejumpa]

They can also throw too....

But maybe its because the white ones are too scared to lol who knows...

[Warehouse]

because in high school and ckollege, their ckoaches generally try to use them as dual threats because that wins games at those levels because of their natural superior athleticism in comparison to the caucasian QBs, and as a result they generally suffer when it ckomes to being pro-style QBs...

hopefully My boy Jamarcus Russell will change that

[DeuceWallaces]

Ware, Pete, Moon, Byron, Williams, Batch, King...just off the top of my head.

[Jailblazers7]

Byron Leftwich completely shatters that theory. :oldlol:

[1manfastbreak]

because in high school and ckollege, their ckoaches generally try to use them as dual threats because that wins games at those levels because of their natural superior athleticism in comparison to the caucasian QBs, and as a result they generally suffer when it ckomes to being pro-style QBs...

hopefully My boy Jamarcus Russell will change that

J-marc to maclin all day just wait.

[MarloStanfield]

steve young, jeff garcia?

[Jailblazers7]

steve young, jeff garcia?

Eric Crouch? :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Randall, McNair, McNabb.. Vick, Vince Young.. almost all..
because they never have a competant line or great recievers. the only black qb in that list that has ever had a nice reciever was an old cunningham with randy moss. and he only had moss cuz the original qb got hurt. i will always believe that the nfl is rascist.

[97 bulls]

steve young, jeff garcia?
garcia isnt much of a scrambler. and young had happy feet.

[thejumpa]

because they never have a competant line or great recievers. the only black qb in that list that has ever had a nice reciever was an old cunningham with randy moss. and he only had moss cuz the original qb got hurt. i will always believe that the nfl is rascist.

interesting point. Care to explain it a bit more?

[MarloStanfield]

garcia isnt much of a scrambler. and young had happy feet.
lol and mcnabb is?

also must be nice to have happy feet while rushing for 4,300 yards and almost 50 touchdowns.

[1manfastbreak]

because they never have a competant line or great recievers. the only black qb in that list that has ever had a nice reciever was an old cunningham with randy moss. and he only had moss cuz the original qb got hurt. i will always believe that the nfl is rascist.

culepepper had moss.
mcnabb had t.o.

i wouldnt call the nfl racist though, thats just retarded.

[1manfastbreak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8P1TzqWEgY

steve young was listed as the 2 all time mobile qb by espn..

[MarloStanfield]

mcnabb has rushed for an average of around 200 yards and 2 touchdowns per season over the past 5 years. definitely not a scrambling QB.

[Vragrant]

Elway was a great scrambler as well.

[-primetime-]

greatest QB scramble ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjplYy_zT0Y&feature=related

:D

[97 bulls]

lol and mcnabb is?

also must be nice to have happy feet while rushing for 4,300 yards and almost 50 touchdowns.
im just sayn. alot of times young didnt have to scramble. but hes a great qb

[MarloStanfield]

greatest QB scramble ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjplYy_zT0Y&feature=related

:D
die

[97 bulls]

culepepper had moss.
mcnabb had t.o.

i wouldnt call the nfl racist though, thats just retarded.
so out of all the black qbs you can only list 2 that had great recievers? not to mention to was hurt most of the time with mcnab. and yes, the nfl is racist to say otherwise is retarded or yor an ostrich.

[97 bulls]

Elway was a great scrambler as well.
elway is the best qb ever.

[GOBB]

Helter Skelter is just clueless.

[97 bulls]

interesting point. Care to explain it a bit more?
ive always believed that the coaches that are black have extremely short leashes as opposed to the others. and why do scrambling qbs have to be pocket passers? let them do what they do best. not to mention theres never a big push to find competant recievers and linemen to surround the qbs. randall cunningham couldve been far and away the best qb ever if the eagles ever put quality around him.

[sixerfan82]

running from the cops turned into a valuable skill maybe

LOL i'm kidding, i dunno

[BankShot]

Byron Leftwich completely shatters that theory. :oldlol:

I'm glad someone mentioned him before i had to

[1manfastbreak]

so out of all the black qbs you can only list 2 that had great recievers? not to mention to was hurt most of the time with mcnab. and yes, the nfl is racist to say otherwise is retarded or yor an ostrich.

your right. nobody in the nfl wants to win games so they get super ****ty wr's to play with their black qb's so they suck, and then in turn don't make any money. your the smartest person in the world. :applause:

[PistolPete]

Moon wasn't a scrambler

[gts]

greatest QB scramble ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjplYy_zT0Y&feature=related

:Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrmyllSf7yY

[97 bulls]

your right. nobody in the nfl wants to win games so they get super ****ty wr's to play with their black qb's so they suck, and then in turn don't make any money. your the smartest person in the world. :applause:
the nfl always makes money bro. so you tell me why other than elway and tom brady, all the great white qbs have had great recievers or most in comparison to the black ones? why coaches like ray rhodes can get coach of the year and endure injuries the next year and get fired. why with all these great black assitants the nfl continues to hire retreads? and i dont appreciate the scarcasm. you know its the truth.

[-primetime-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrmyllSf7yY
well, I wasn't alive to see him play but I just can't imagine ANY QB on the planet to ever be better than Vick was...

and thank you for reminding me how much I miss the NFL Network...:(

[1987_Lakers]

elway is the best qb ever.

You obviously have never heard of Joe Montana.

[1987_Lakers]

Byron Leftwich completely shatters that theory. :oldlol:

:oldlol:

I remember his speed rating in Madden 2006 was 45.

[MarloStanfield]

You obviously have never heard of Joe Montana.
or tony romo

[97 bulls]

You obviously have never heard of Joe Montana.
montanna had a better career but elway is the only qb with all the tools. are we gonna start an 80s vs 90s football edition? lol

[-primetime-]

montanna had a better career but elway is the only qb with all the tools. are we gonna start an 80s vs 90s football edition? lol
there isn't a tool that Montana didn't have...

accurate as hell, smart as hell, and also very mobile as hell...

he owns pretty much every damn post season record there is...

I can't think of any flaws that Montana had at all....perfect QB IMO

[Carbine]

If he were the perfect quarterback he would've at least thrown for over 4000 yards, or for ovr 30 touchdowns more than once in a season. Especially since he had an abundance of talent around him on offense.

Just saying. He's arguably the GOAT, but it's not because of his "perfect" attributes.

[97 bulls]

there isn't a tool that Montana didn't have...

accurate as hell, smart as hell, and also very mobile as hell...

he owns pretty much every damn post season record there is...

I can't think of any flaws that Montana had at all....perfect QB IMO
true but his offense was an easy 1 its was rice, craig, clark, and taylor that would catch a 3 yard slant and turn it into an 80 yd td. but he was great.

[97 bulls]

If he were the perfect quarterback he would've at least thrown for over 4000 yards, or for ovr 30 touchdowns more than once in a season. Especially since he had an abundance of talent around him on offense.

Just saying. He's arguably the GOAT, but it's not because of his "perfect" attributes.
if your talking about elway, have you seen the trash he had to work with?

[1987_Lakers]

montanna had a better career but elway is the only qb with all the tools. are we gonna start an 80s vs 90s football edition? lol

Elway is an all-time great QB, but he is overrated to some extant.

John Elway
300 tds
226 INTS
Career rating- 79.9
56% completion for his career

Joe Montana
273 tds
139 INTS
Career Rating - 92.3
63.2 completion for his career

And lets not forget Super Bowl XXIV, where Montana completely out-played Elway.

BTW. I'm not gonna start a 80's vs 90's Football edition. I actually believe the NFL was better in the 90's.

[GOBB]

You obviously have never heard of Joe Montana.

I did and I've seen him play. Yet John Elway is the best QB to ever play the game to me.

[97 bulls]

Elway is an all-time great QB, but he is overrated to some extant.

John Elway
300 tds
226 INTS
Career rating- 79.9
56% completion for his career

Joe Montana
273 tds
139 INTS
Career Rating - 92.3
63.2 completion for his career

And lets not forget Super Bowl XXIV, where Montana completely out-played Elway.

BTW. I'm not gonna start a 80's vs 90's Football edition. I actually believe the NFL was better in the 90's.
thats all great 87. but your a stats guy. i like stats but to a certain extent.

[-primetime-]

If he were the perfect quarterback he would've at least thrown for over 4000 yards, or for ovr 30 touchdowns more than once in a season. Especially since he had an abundance of talent around him on offense.

Just saying. He's arguably the GOAT, but it's not because of his "perfect" attributes.
well yeah obviously I didn't mean he was literally "perfect"...

he wouldn't even have 1 interception...


I just ment as far as "tools" go and what you look for in a QB, he seems like exactly what every team wants in a QB...

[97 bulls]

I did and I've seen him play. Yet John Elway is the best QB to ever play the game to me.
thank you give him that line and rice and craig and taylor. wow.

[1987_Lakers]

true but his offense was an easy 1 its was rice, craig, clark, and taylor that would catch a 3 yard slant and turn it into an 80 yd td. but he was great.

Are you aware Montana won 2 super bowl's without Rice and 1 super bowl without Craig.

1984 Joe Montana - 28 TD . 10 INT . 3630 yds . 64.6 completion%

Montana was an elite QB even before Rice arrived.

[97 bulls]

not to mention elway played in denver montanna in sunny cali that def helped.

[-primetime-]

if your talking about elway, have you seen the trash he had to work with?
he led them to the AFC Championship game...

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1993/0913_large.jpg


and he was pretty old when he did it...

[1987_Lakers]

Old Joe Montana showing John Elway who's boss...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OlHRJV_5Sw&feature=related

[Carbine]

If you think John Elway is the best quarterback ever then you sure as hell better think Ben Roethlisberger is arguably the best quarterback in the game right now.

There is little difference between Ben & Elway to me. Both aren't big stat guys for the most part, both are great at comeback victories/game winning drives, both make plays with their feet, both have strong arms, both have two superbowl rings, etc.

Ben is basically the Elway of this era. Manning the Dan Marino with a ring, and Brady the Montana with bigger stats and less individial playoff dominance.

[JtotheIzzo]

Warren Moon was like Dan Marino with wheels when he played for the Edmonton Eskimos (in 1983 he threw for 5648 yards, he also won five consecutive chips).

Had he been able to go to the NFL right after college and had football not been so racists towards blacks in the pivot at the time, Moon would have amassed passing numbers in the 'all time' range.

This would have greatly changed the view of the black quarterback and we'd see more prolific passing black QBs today.

[97 bulls]

Warren Moon was like Dan Marino with wheels when he played for the Edmonton Eskimos (in 1983 he threw for 5648 yards, he also won five consecutive chips).

Had he been able to go to the NFL right after college and had football not been so racists towards blacks in the pivot at the time, Moon would have amassed passing numbers in the 'all time' range.

This would have greatly changed the view of the black quarterback and we'd see more prolific passing black QBs today.
nice post j

[1987_Lakers]

thats all great 87. but your a stats guy. i like stats but to a certain extent.

Montana was also more clutch. And there are no stats for clutch play.

[-primetime-]

If you think John Elway is the best quarterback ever then you sure as hell better think Ben Roethlisberger is arguably the best quarterback in the game right now.

There is little difference between Ben & Elway to me. Both aren't big stat guys for the most part, both are great at comeback victories/game winning drives, both make plays with their feet, both have strong arms, both have two superbowl rings, etc.

Ben is basically the Elway of this era. Manning the Dan Marino with a ring, and Brady the Montana with bigger stats and less individial playoff dominance.
last year he had what some people say could argueably be the greatest defense ever...

I just can't bring myself to give Ben that much credit for last year...

He is a great QB, don't get me wrong...but in a Terry Bradshaw kind of way....if you know what I mean...

[97 bulls]

Old Joe Montana showing John Elway who's boss...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OlHRJV_5Sw&feature=related
lol montanna almost missed him after he beat his man and montanna had no pressure. joke.

[97 bulls]

Montana was also more clutch. And there are no stats for clutch play.
doesnt elway hold the record for most 2 minute combacks?

[97 bulls]

watching that chiefs game reminds me of how many times i saw montanna wide open and make a abd pass and the reciever cover for him and turn it into a td or a big play.

[-primetime-]

this is the part that makes it a no-brainer for me:


Montana holds post-season records for most career touchdown passes (45), and passing yards (5,772) among others. In his four Super Bowls, Montana completed 83 of 122 passes for 1,142 yards and 11 touchdowns with no interceptions, earning him a passer rating of 127.8. Montana led his team to victory in each game, and is the only player ever to win three Super Bowl MVP awards.

you really just can't be any more clutch than that...

[97 bulls]

this is the part that makes it a no-brainer for me:



you really just can't be any more clutch than that...
he had a great team.

[1987_Lakers]

doesnt elway hold the record for most 2 minute combacks?

Go watch the 1981 NFC Championship Game & Super Bowl XXIII and you will see which QB performed better in the clutch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kj_GLEGgsk
When did you ever see Elway do this in a super bowl?

[Carbine]

Nobody would argue that defense is the greatest of all-time. Most would argue it isn't the best of the past 20 years, which would exclude the Steelers and Bears defenses of the 70's and 80's but would include the Bucs, 1991 Eagles, Ravens and Bears and even the Patriots.

Anyways, they didn't win the superbowl because of that defense. It was Ben Roethlisberger making throws by evading the rush and guiding one of the two best single drives I've ever seen in my life by a quarterback to only, you know...win the superbowl.

They aren't champions without Ben. He's the single most important reason why they win. Tom Brady gets credit for winning rings and doesn't have to face any of this "his defense carried him" stuff, so why is Ben getting this treatment?

[-primetime-]

Nobody would argue that defense is the greatest of all-time. Most would argue it isn't the best of the past 20 years, which would exclude the Steelers and Bears defenses of the 70's and 80's but would include the Bucs, 1991 Eagles, Ravens and Bears and even the Patriots.

Anyways, they didn't win the superbowl because of that defense. It was Ben Roethlisberger making throws by evading the rush and guiding one of the two best single drives I've ever seen in my life by a quarterback to only, you know...win the superbowl.

They aren't champions without Ben. He's the single most important reason why they win. Tom Brady gets credit for winning rings and doesn't have to face any of this "his defense carried him" stuff, so why is Ben getting this treatment?
well if you ar actually trying to say that Ben was more important to that team than the entire defense was then all I can say is that you are just wrong....plain and simple.

this is what Ben did last year:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2008&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_PASSER_RATING&d-447263-n=1

yeah, go ahead and scroll all the way down to #24 in the NFL with a passer rating of freakin 80.1


I know that stats aren't everything...but his stats just flat out SUCKED...

the defense on the other hand was #1 against both the pass and rush last year stat wise...

[-primetime-]

he had a great team.
those are his personal stats not the teams...

it isn't like Jerry Rice is so great that it makes it impossible for Montana to throw an INT...

[TMac&Luther]

because they never have a competant line or great recievers. the only black qb in that list that has ever had a nice reciever was an old cunningham with randy moss. and he only had moss cuz the original qb got hurt. i will always believe that the nfl is rascist.

Wow, haven't been watching the NFL long have you?

Warren had Ernest Givins and Haywood Jeffries, which = one of the most dynamic offenses in NFL history.

Williams had the "smurfs".

[TMac&Luther]

there isn't a tool that Montana didn't have...

accurate as hell, smart as hell, and also very mobile as hell...

he owns pretty much every damn post season record there is...

I can't think of any flaws that Montana had at all....perfect QB IMO

arm strength, but in the WCO he didn't need it. He was the perfect QB for THAT system, it was a match made in heaven. Walsh + Montana = alltime greatness. Montana + ??? who knows.

[1987_Lakers]

97 bulls should stick to basketball.

[-primetime-]

arm strength, but in the WCO he didn't need it. He was the perfect QB for THAT system, it was a match made in heaven. Walsh + Montana = alltime greatness. Montana + ??? who knows.
his arm strength was fine dude...he was very capable of throwing a deep ball...a very accurate deep ball...

and I already brought up the Chiefs...where he led them to the AFC Championship game...

[TMac&Luther]

his arm strength was fine dude...he was very capable of throwing a deep ball...a very accurate deep ball...

and I already brought up the Chiefs...where he led them to the AFC Championship game...

His arm was very average at best, possibly a little below (not strong at all....it's the reason he fell so low in the draft), and the chiefs ran a similar style of offense back then....it's why they picked him up.

[Carbine]

Why are stats the end-all be-all of a discussion? You believe that Montana is the GOAT yet his stats are overall not worthy of such a label. Only passed for 30+ touchdowns once? Never passed for 4000 yards in a season. This same Joe Montana had quarterback ratings in the 80's all throughout his career.

You can't use stats to judge Ben. He plays in Pittsburgh, first of all. The weather rarely induces great statistical football. Second he has a **** line that regularly puts him under heat. Third his weapons aren't great and finally he didn't have a potent running game to fall back on.

Yet he still managed to be clutch in every single oppurtunity that was presented to him. When plays needed to be made, he made them. Much like John Elway did.

It's not like Ben is incapable of having great seasons statistically, either. Two years ago he put up 32/11 with over a 100 rating. You want stats? He got them. You want rings? He got two. You want clutchness? He's the best. You want all-time great drives to win superbowls? Got that too.

He's so comparable to John that's it's scary. Both have the same impact on games.


well if you ar actually trying to say that Ben was more important to that team than the entire defense was then all I can say is that you are just wrong....plain and simple.

No, a single player will never be more important than a whole unit. He's the single most important person to their success, though... by a long-shot.

Steelers defense is getting overrated here I think. They didn't win a championship. In fact they played well below expectations. They let the Chargers have a touchdown on the first drive in the playoffs, but Ben & Holmes made up for it. They shut-down the Ravens, but that was to be expected. They had a rookie QB and no play-makers in the run game.

Against the Cards the failed to shut down the Cardinals on the second-last possession of the game resulting in Ben having to save the team once again.

Bottom line is that while the Steelers defense was important to them winning a ring, it was Ben that ultimatly put the team on his back.

[TMac&Luther]

Why are stats the end-all be-all of a discussion? You believe that Montana is the GOAT.

My list starts with #7 John Elway. (that is a guy who had it all, too bad he's looked down upon, because some of the teams he played on weren't all that great) That guy carried teams (some that had no business going there) to SBs.

[-primetime-]

His arm was very average at best, possibly a little below (not strong at all....it's the reason he fell so low in the draft), and the chiefs ran a similar style of offense back then....it's why they picked him up.
at the combine his arm strength was a 6.5 out of 8....I don't know what the f*ck that means...:oldlol:

I certainly didn't seem to have any issues throwing the deep ball to me though...

and the Chiefs drafting him out of west coast offense for his simplicity doesn't make sense to me...

[TMac&Luther]

at the combine his arm strength was a 6.5 out of 8....I don't know what the f*ck that means...:oldlol:

I certainly didn't seem to have any issues throwing the deep ball to me though...

and the Chiefs drafting him out of west coast offense for his simplicity doesn't make sense to me...

6.5 out of 8, I don't know what that means either....they don't even use that stat. All I know is Montana's arm strength wasn't a strong suit with him. A deep pass can be just 40 yards down the field....even Chad Pennington can throw that far. The WCO is built around 10 yard patterns and timed short yard patterns, and then taking a big play when it presents itself (pretty much your passing game can be just like your running game, 5 yard gain here, 6 yard gain there, and then you pop one)....it's a very complex offense

and the Chiefs didn't draft him, they picked him up after the 49ers decided to go with Young for the future.

Nobody knew Montana would be as great as he turned out to be, not even the 49ers, but Walsh quickly saw something in him and the rest is history. If there is ever such thing as right time, right place that was it. Before Walsh there was no WCO.....he changed the game and he had a alltime QB to help him do it.

[-primetime-]

Why are stats the end-all be-all of a discussion? You believe that Montana is the GOAT yet his stats are overall not worthy of such a label. Only passed for 30+ touchdowns once? Never passed for 4000 yards in a season. This same Joe Montana had quarterback ratings in the 80's all throughout his career.

You can't use stats to judge Ben. He plays in Pittsburgh, first of all. The weather rarely induces great statistical football. Second he has a **** line that regularly puts him under heat. Third his weapons aren't great and finally he didn't have a potent running game to fall back on.

Yet he still managed to be clutch in every single oppurtunity that was presented to him. When plays needed to be made, he made them. Much like John Elway did.

It's not like Ben is incapable of having great seasons statistically, either. Two years ago he put up 32/11 with over a 100 rating. You want stats? He got them. You want rings? He got two. You want clutchness? He's the best. You want all-time great drives to win superbowls? Got that too.

He's so comparable to John that's it's scary. Both have the same impact on games.



No, a single player will never be more important than a whole unit. He's the single most important person to their success, though... by a long-shot.

Steelers defense is getting overrated here I think. They didn't win a championship. In fact they played well below expectations. They let the Chargers have a touchdown on the first drive in the playoffs, but Ben & Holmes made up for it. They shut-down the Ravens, but that was to be expected. They had a rookie QB and no play-makers in the run game.

Against the Cards the failed to shut down the Cardinals on the second-last possession of the game resulting in Ben having to save the team once again.

Bottom line is that while the Steelers defense was important to them winning a ring, it was Ben that ultimatly put the team on his back.
I hope you don't have any issues with someone saying that Bradshaw was better than Marino then...

[-primetime-]

6.5 out of 8, I don't know what that means either....they don't even use that stat. All I know is Montana's arm strength was a strong point with him

and the Chiefs didn't draft him, they picked him up after the 49ers decided to go with Young for the future.

Nobody knew Montana would be as great as he turned out to be, not even the 49ers, but Walsh quickly saw something in him and the rest is history. If there is ever such thing as right time, right place that was it. Before Walsh there was no WCO.....he changed the game and he had a alltime QB to help him do it.
I know, I missread your post...

I thought you said that the Chiefs signed Montana because they ran a "simple" offense...and that didn't make sense to me...


my bad...

[-primetime-]

Nobody knew Montana would be as great as he turned out to be, not even the 49ers, but Walsh quickly saw something in him and the rest is history. If there is ever such thing as right time, right place that was it. Before Walsh there was no WCO.....he changed the game and he had a alltime QB to help him do it.
this dude might have an arguement...

http://evilbeetgossip.film.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/tombrady.jpg

[TMac&Luther]

I know, I missread your post...

I thought you said that the Chiefs signed Montana because they ran a "simple" offense...and that didn't make sense to me...


my bad...

no prob,

[TMac&Luther]

this dude might have an arguement...

http://evilbeetgossip.film.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/tombrady.jpg

You see, that's the territory you get into when judging these QBs... everyone talks about the 3 superbowls that "Elway lost", but this is a team sport.

Tom Brady is a great QB (when healthy the best one playing right now, have to take him over Peyton because he's better in the clutch).....a future HOFer and I'm not trying to take anything from him, but would he be regarded as high without Adam Vinatieri? People have to keep things in perspective...QBs get way too much credit and blame.

[Carbine]

I don't think Brady is flat out better in the clutch than Peyton. If memory serves correct he has the most comebacks since entering the league. He's clutch, probably top 3 in the league.

Anyways, prime....

Bradshaw basically Dilfer'ed his way to his first ring, he barely started half the teams games that year and didn't throw the ball more than 20 times all playoffs, and he passed for more interceptions than touchdowns and had a completion percetnage of below 50 percent.

These stats don't lie. He was just along for the ride here.

The second one he improved, but was still not the single most important player on the team. The offense ran the ball twice as much as they let Bradshaw pass it.

In the playoffs he passed the ball 13 times to 43 rush attempts. He was clearly not relied upon to win that game. The next game he passed for 215 yards with three picks in 25 attempts. They ran the ball 39 times that day.

Up until now, he was still just along for the ride.

In the superbowl he passed 19 times total. The team rushed 49 times.

Again, he just wasn't relied upon to win and carry the team. He was Trent Dilfering his way to those two titles. That's why we have to use context here.... Ben Roethlisberger winning a ring this past year is totally different than Bradshaw winning his first two. WAY different.

In Bradshaw' third championshio he passed for less than 3000 yards, had 20 picks and the team still rushed the ball far more than they put the ball in Bradshaw' hands. In the first game of th eplayoffs he finally did his part, making his presence felt. However, he wasn't a huge reason why they won. It was the defense being dominant (134 total net yards allowed) and the rushing game (40 attempts for 150 yards) that carried them to this win.

Next game he passed the ball 19 times and the team rushed 47 times. The defense again held the opposing team to low yardage with 142 net yards allowed. Bradshaw continuing to Dilfer his way to wins here.

In the superbowl he played great. His play was the single most important reason they won.

In his last superbowl run he passed for 26 touchdowns and 25 picks. This was the first year where he was asked to shoulder the load as he passes almost as much as the team ran.

In the first game of the post-season he had a quality game, but the running game and defense were just as intregal to the win. Still, he certainly didn't Dilfer his way to this win.

Next game was much the same. Dominant defense, dominant running game with a solid performance by Bradshaw.

Superbowl saw he throw for more picks than touchdowns, but they still won.


What this comes down to is that there are many different ways a quarterback helps his team win a ring and should be evaluated accordingly. If you Dilfer your way to a ring, that doesn't mean you're better than someone who has better stats and plays better but doesn't have a ring.

Not saying Bradshaw Dilfered his way to all those rings, but as you can see from this post he wasn't exactly a big reason why they won, either.

Marino had far more on his shoulders than Bradshaw did.

[-primetime-]

first of all the term "Dilfered" = :oldlol:

poor guy...


anyway, I obviously was not around to watch him play and I am aware that his stats suck...I just find it REALLY hard to believe that any QB can "Dilfer" his way to 4 rings...

Marino in way can be seen as a choker...

I wasn't around for his early playoff stuff but looking at his stats in the playoff loses that the Dolphins had they were really bad...


Harrison's TD INT in the SuperBowl was a freakin 14 point difference...sure, Ben had a great game and made some great drives...but let's face it...that is a VERY defensive based football team and should always be viewed as such...


btw...I do think that Ben is a top 5 QB in the NFL right now...(I think)...I am not trying to say he sucks at all...


1. Peyton
2. Brady (return a little questionable)
3. Brees
4. Rivers
5. Pennington/Warner/Cutler/Ryan/Big Ben

maybe not top 5...:oldlol:

[dab0yech0]

You obviously have never heard of Joe Montana.

Anyone remember Cade Mcnown? He was a beast at UCLA, unfortunately busted with the Chicago Bears

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLStiIpnYlg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzIR0lKeYT4

[Carbine]

Chad in the same sentance as Ben Roethlisberger? Wow.

That about sums it up for you prime. I'm convinced you don't understand football past an advanced casual fan, which isn't really a compliment.

[-primetime-]

Chad in the same sentance as Ben Roethlisberger? Wow.

That about sums it up for you prime. I'm convinced you don't understand football past an advanced casual fan, which isn't really a compliment.
give me a break...

there were a few (not many) that thought he should have won MVP last year...

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/hyde/blog/2008/12/penningtons_case_for_mvp_-_and_why_is_no_one_listening.html

Pennington's case for MVP - and why is no one listening?


If there's any fan base that understands rich quarterback play, it's the Dolphins' fan base. It's not just Bob Griese and Dan Marino. It's the previous 13 quarterbacks before this year's Chad Pennington. It's the fact that four of these quarterbacks - Gus Frerotte, Daunte Culpepper, Sage Rosenfels and Trent Green - have played elsewhere and been exactly what We The Fan thought they were.

Which is anywhere from acceptable-as-a-backup to putrid.

This is why it's alarming there's no motion of Pennington-for-MVP talk. Not MVP of the Dophins, which is a given. MVP of the league.

Instead, even from respected writers like Peter King of Sports Illustrated, even when he has a worthy candidate like Matt Ryan in the list, you don't hear Pennington being called.. Peyton Manning is, of course. And Brian Westbrook. (And just so you don't take this wrong, King picks the Dolphins to win the division.)

Another respected voice, Mike Florio of profootballtalk.com, drew a lengthy list a couple of weeks ago and had no Pennington. Matt Cassel was there. And Atlanta running back Michael Turner. And Tony Romo. And Kurt Warner. And Brett Favre

So where's Pennington?

Pennington has the Dolphins at the same 8-5 mark as the talent-richer teams of Cassel, Romo, Warner and Favre. How? Simply because he's having a career season. He's been a revelation. He's the top reason the Dolphins are where they are -- the past years of Dolphins quarterbacking confirm this.

Plus, look who he's working with. He doesn't have Warner's Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin. Or Romo's Terrell Owens and Roy Williams. Or Randy Moss and Wes Welker like Cassel.

He's got Ted Ginn and Davone Bess.

Now I like Ginn (though his last couple weeks have been disappointing) and Bess (an undrafted rookie with nine catches last week!) But before them Greg Camarillo was the Dolphins' leading receiver.

Pennington has six interceptions in 13 games this year. He has a 66.4 completion rate. He, most importantly, has eight wins.

The next few weeks will decide who should be the league's MVP. But as things stand now, how can Pennington not be high in the discussion?



dude, please don't question my football knowledge when you are the one in here comparing Ben Roth to freakin Elway...I mean, come on man...

[Carbine]

You tell me why Elway and Ben are not similar both in playing styles and impact on the game.

[-primetime-]

You tell me why Elway and Ben are not similar both in playing styles and impact on the game.
this is where we are just going to disagree on views, I can already see you telling me it is BS...

IMO Elway won those rings with great QB play...where it was the defense that led the Steelers last year, not Ben...I know you don't agree with that, but that is why I think it is silly to compare them...

Elway is a 9 time probowler dude...Ben has only 1 so far, and statistally one good year...


I know alot of why Elway won near the end was because of the team around him...Shannon/Davis/ect...but it was still the great Elway who ran the show...

the Steelers won on defense, not offense...

[Carbine]

*shake my ****ing head at this guy*

So Elway "led" his teams, but Ben was just riding his defense to a ring.

Okay then. That's all I needed to hear. You've cemented yourself as an advanced casual fan. Good for you!

[-primetime-]

*shake my ****ing head at this guy*

So Elway "led" his teams, but Ben was just riding his defense to a ring.

Okay then. That's all I needed to hear. You've cemented yourself as an advanced casual fan. Good for you!
please stop with the insults...it isn't like the "so called experts" at ESPN would dissagree with me...

I am allowed to have a freakin opinion...

I don't think that the Steelers could have won a ring with freakin rex Grossman or anything like that...

Ben is a legit top 10 in my eyes right now...I am trying to say this without coming off as though I think he sucks...but yes, I do think the defense on that team carried them much more than ben did...

and dude...I am fully aware that stats don't mean everything...but if they did mean everything to me then he would be one of the worst QBs in the NFL...I mean, you can just not have a killer year of football with numbers like that...it just isn't possible...

you really need to own up to the fact that during the season, he played very mediocre at best...and yes, he did step up when it counted but maybe that is because he was forced to step up after just scoring 6 points the first 3 quarters...

[Carbine]

During the season he played awesome overall. He had a bad stretch, but aside form that he was money. Did you even pay attention to the NFL this year? Statements like the ones you're making about Ben in the regular season leads me to believe you really didn't.

I'd also like to point this out.

In Elways first superbowl winning post-season, this is what happened.

His defense forced two turnovers his first playoff game. He also had two 100 yard rushers on his team. Clearly he was "leading" his team moreso than Ben here, right? I mean, come on... two 100 yard rushers on the same team and two turnovers created by the defense? That happens for Ben ALL the time, right?

Next game the defense held them to 10 points, Elway passed 19 total times and Davis rushed for over 100 yards again. Elway sure was the biggest reason they won, right? Ben doesn't even come close.

*shakes head*

Next game the DEFENSE forces four turnovers, David runs for almost 140 yards and Elway throws for 210 with 2 touchdowns and 1 pick.

Yet it's Elway clearly leading his team here, right? No credit should be given to the defense for forcing four turnovers, or Davis for rushing for that many yards giving balance to the offense. NOOOO, it's all Elway... he's "leading" the team.

Superbowl the defense forces three more turnovers, Davis rushes for 150 and 3 scores and Elway throws 22 times for no touchdowns and 1 pick.

ALL HAIL ELWAY

Ben never could do what Elway did in this post-season, right? After all you did say Elway ran the show and then went on to say Ben won with defense, not offense.

That's stupid because Elway had a great defense playing for him and a guy who rushed for over 100 yards in all games, and even had two 100 yard rushers in the same game!

Yet Elway ran the show, right?

**** that **** man.



Second superbowl post-season the defense had a remarkable 13 forced turnovers in three total games. That's far more than what Ben recieved from his defense. The Denver defense in the post-season allowed less than 11 points per game in three total games.

The offensive side of the ball Terrell ran for an average of like 150 yards per game in the post-season. Elway had three total touchdowns the whole post-season. Passed for over 200 yards just one game out of three.

Yet Elway was "leading" his team while Ben was just riding the defense.



I'm sorry but that's too much bull**** for me to handle. You can't say Ben won with defense and not offense and not say the exact same thing about Elway.

[TMac&Luther]

I don't think Brady is flat out better in the clutch than Peyton. If memory serves correct he has the most comebacks since entering the league. He's clutch, probably top 3 in the league..

not in the playoffs, did you miss that or purposely leave it out? Peyton's regular season stats don't even come close to what he did in the playoffs (which he failed time and time again)...Playoffs = clutch, which Peyton was not. Peyton simply isn't a playoff/clutch alltime QB, infact he's a dud.

I rate...

Elway
Montana
Brady
Aikman
Roethlisberger
and even Marino before Peyton.....sorry, Peyton's inability to compete against a 3-4 defense during playoff time (New England and San Diego) kills him



....even maybe place Warner ahead of him. In the biggest game this guy has ever won, a backup RB carried him to victory..that's also the truth.

"GREATEST REGULAR SEASON QB" of alltime, but in the clucth, the guy simply couldn't be counted on....sorry.

[-primetime-]

During the season he played awesome overall. He had a bad stretch, but aside form that he was money. Did you even pay attention to the NFL this year? Statements like the ones you're making about Ben in the regular season leads me to believe you really didn't.

I'd also like to point this out.

In Elways first superbowl winning post-season, this is what happened.

His defense forced two turnovers his first playoff game. He also had two 100 yard rushers on his team. Clearly he was "leading" his team moreso than Ben here, right? I mean, come on... two 100 yard rushers on the same team and two turnovers created by the defense? That happens for Ben ALL the time, right?

Next game the defense held them to 10 points, Elway passed 19 total times and Davis rushed for over 100 yards again. Elway sure was the biggest reason they won, right? Ben doesn't even come close.

*shakes head*

Next game the DEFENSE forces four turnovers, David runs for almost 140 yards and Elway throws for 210 with 2 touchdowns and 1 pick.

Yet it's Elway clearly leading his team here, right? No credit should be given to the defense for forcing four turnovers, or Davis for rushing for that many yards giving balance to the offense. NOOOO, it's all Elway... he's "leading" the team.

Superbowl the defense forces three more turnovers, Davis rushes for 150 and 3 scores and Elway throws 22 times for no touchdowns and 1 pick.

ALL HAIL ELWAY

Ben never could do what Elway did in this post-season, right? After all you did say Elway ran the show and then went on to say Ben won with defense, not offense.

That's stupid because Elway had a great defense playing for him and a guy who rushed for over 100 yards in all games, and even had two 100 yard rushers in the same game!

Yet Elway ran the show, right?

**** that **** man.



Second superbowl post-season the defense had a remarkable 13 forced turnovers in three total games. That's far more than what Ben recieved from his defense. The Denver defense in the post-season allowed less than 11 points per game in three total games.

The offensive side of the ball Terrell ran for an average of like 150 yards per game in the post-season. Elway had three total touchdowns the whole post-season. Passed for over 200 yards just one game out of three.

Yet Elway was "leading" his team while Ben was just riding the defense.



I'm sorry but that's too much bull**** for me to handle. You can't say Ben won with defense and not offense and not say the exact same thing about Elway.


so clearly you think that Elway is one of the more overrated QBs there is I guess?

right?

[TMac&Luther]

so clearly you think that Elway is one of the more overrated QBs there is I guess?

right?

how so...

[TMac&Luther]

so clearly you think that Elway is one of the more overrated QBs there is I guess?

right?

Why did you log off? I really want to know how I thought "Elway is one of the more overrated QBs there is"?

Elway was the physical specimen, if you had to build the perfect QB...he'd be it...he had everything a QB could ever ask for, about as closet to "perfect" as you could ever get.

[-primetime-]

Why did you log off? I really want to know how I thought "Elway is one of the more overrated QBs there is"?
that was a reply to Carbine...sorry

I will edit it...

[JtotheIzzo]

wow, all this time I figured Carbine was knowledgeable when it came to football, with the Colts avatar, the multiple posts in football related threads and what not, but now after reading some of the tripe he has doled out in this thread I take all that back. Dayum!

[JtotheIzzo]

Lets get back on topic:


Warren Moon was like Dan Marino with wheels when he played for the Edmonton Eskimos (in 1983 he threw for 5648 yards, he also won five consecutive chips).

Had he been able to go to the NFL right after college and had football not been so racists towards blacks in the pivot at the time, Moon would have amassed passing numbers in the 'all time' range.

This would have greatly changed the view of the black quarterback and we'd see more prolific passing black QBs today.

[Rasheed1]

Big Ben and Elway :oldlol:

Elway carried the broncos to 4 super bowls all by himself...... I dont see Ben having the skill set to do that....

poor comparison

[Carbine]

How does someone lead a team to two superbowl victories "all by himself" yet have a defense that forced that many turnovers and have a guy rush for over 100 yards every single playoff game in those two post-seasons?

That's hardly leading a team by himself.

[JtotheIzzo]

How does someone lead a team to two superbowl victories "all by himself" yet have a defense that forced that many turnovers and have a guy rush for over 100 yards every single playoff game in those two post-seasons?

That's hardly leading a team by himself.

you are aware that Elway went to five Super Bowls?

[Carbine]

I'm not the only one who compares Ben to Elway, either. Many experts, many people on football forums also believe they are similar both in styles and impact.

I don't think Elway is overrated by the majority of people, either.... but when people say he's the best they ever saw (to me, meaningi that in his prime he was the best they ever saw) or that he carried them to two rings all by himself (which is a complete joke, by the way) then yes, he does get overrated.

But it's only a select few that think both of those things are true anyway, so he's not really overrated.

[lilmarcgasol]

David Garrard, while he has good speed and size, is not a scrambler. Ben Rothlisberger, a whitey, is a good runner

[Carbine]

Why should making the superbowl (due to weak-ass competition in the afc at that point) make a difference? His team was clearly out-classed in all three of those games.

That's not even the point. I didn;t realize we were now giving major props to someone who just made the superbowl. Isn't the whole reason we judge most quarterbacks is by how many rings they actually won? Wrong as it is, that's the way it is. Never have I heared someone prop up a player because he made three other superbowls and get clobbered in all of them.

He won two with the help of a great defense and great running attack. He didn't lead them to a ring all by himself. His contribution to those super bowl winning teams were very similar to what Ben gave his team this past year.

He made three others in a weak conference. He was clearly carrying his team more than in the years he actually won it, but who cares? His team got handled in every superbowl.

[Rasheed1]

Why should making the superbowl (due to weak-ass competition in the afc at that point) make a difference? His team was clearly out-classed in all three of those games.

That's not even the point. I didn;t realize we were now giving major props to someone who just made the superbowl. Isn't the whole reason we judge most quarterbacks is by how many rings they actually won? Wrong as it is, that's the way it is. Never have I heared someone prop up a player because he made three other superbowls and get clobbered in all of them.

He won two with the help of a great defense and great running attack. He didn't lead them to a ring all by himself. His contribution to those super bowl winning teams were very similar to what Ben gave his team this past year.

He made three others in a weak conference. He was clearly carrying his team more than in the years he actually won it, but who cares? His team got handled in every superbowl.

you are simply trying to discredit his accomplishments... It is a big deal to carry any team in the nfl to multiple super bowls with no run game and a mediocre receivers... if it was soo easy, it would happen alot more often


Ben is a nice Qb, but he isnt what Elway was....

[JtotheIzzo]

you are simply trying to discredit his accomplishments... It is a big deal to carry any team in the nfl to multiple super bowls with no run game and a mediocre receivers... if it was soo easy, it would happen alot more often


Ben is a nice Qb, but he isnt what Elway was....

didn't Ben have the worst statistical game ever for a winning QB in his first Super Bowl?

the fact that Carbine is adamant in comparing Ben to Elway is sad and mildly disturbing.

[Carbine]

If John doesn't get massive help to lend a big hand in obtaining the two rings near the end of his career he's another guy who couldn't win the big game to most people in america.

There is nothing heroic about getting blown out of the superbowl three-times and only making it in large part because the ocnference was so weak at that point.

Also, he in fact did have a runnig game in the playoffs to help him get to the superbowls.

1986 his first playoff game the running game gave him almost 170 yards, thasts without Elways contributions in the run game as well.

Second game they got 93 yards rushing from everyone aside from Elway. Not great, but it's still enough to warrent balance on the offensive side of the ball where play-action can be effective.

In the superbowl the run game got shut down. Elway couldn't do it himself (not harm there, nobody can) and they got blown out.

First playoff game of 1987 he again got little help from the run game, but the defense was huge. I don't think Elway did it all for his team here, it was the effort coupled with the fact that his defense held Wareen Moon to 10 points that won the game. This isn't trying to discredit him here, it's just the way it is, though John sure did play his part.

Second game saw the running game give 120 yards to support John. That's pretty good.

In the superbowl they again shut the run down, and Elway couldn't do it himself. Blown out once again.

In 1989, the first playoff game he got around 100 yards rushing. This is not great, but it's effective and clearly not a sign of "no run game at all"

Second playoff game Brocos ran for 81 yards excluding John' contribution. They had a servicable run game this day, but it was clearly John doing his thing that won them this game. No question.

In the superbowl it much much the same. They couldn't run the ball and it was up to John and he couldn't do it. In-effective game for him. His team got blown out.


I mean, you can clearly make the case that his teams during those three years didn't have a dominant run game, but most of the time they gave him close to or over 100 yards.

When he didn't get rushing help he stuggled and got blown out aside from one game in which his defense picked up the slack against Warren Moon.

When I look at the overall picture from these three years I just don't view this as John single handedly carrying his team to superbowls. He had enough ground help and enough defense to do his thing. He was the single most important playerr, by far, but he wasn't out there getting to superbowls without a run game and without a defense in all the games.

If you want to give major props to someone who made three superbowls and got blown out in every one of them while not playing particularly well, then go ahead.

Jim Kelly made four of them suckers and he's still left off most peoples top 10 and top 15 list of quarterbacks. Bottom line is people don't really give credit to those who come in second place. What if Kobe had made the championship last year in a weak ass conference only to lose and not play so well? Would that make him greater, or better because of it? Not really. At least it shouldn't.

[Carbine]

I'm not comparing Ben is his second year to John. He was clearly out-classed by John in that comparison, not to mention other starting QB's in the league at that time. He was a care-taker of the offense at this point.

The player Ben is now, however, is very comparable. They both "lead" their teams in similar fashion to superbowl victories, and it appears that Ben isn't done with winning one or a few more either.

In fact what Ben did this past year is more impressive from an individual stand-point than what John did for his two superbowl winning teams. Ben got no support from his run game in the last two playoff games (or season for that matter, 40% of the time he didn't recieve 75 rushing yards or more in the regular season) his line was terrible, and his weapons weren't anything but slightly above average.

If somebody is going to say that Elway carried his team to two rings, then you gotta say the same thing with Ben.

[Rasheed1]

nobody said Elway carried his team to the 2 super bowl wins.... you need a running game and other pieces for that....

once again your argument is more about discrediting what elway did than anything else....

Jim Kelly made 4 super bowls, but nobody who watched the bills and Kelley would say Kelly 'carried' any of those teams... they had plenty of talent.... they just couldnt beat the NFC east... The Giants, Cowboys and Redskins of the early 90s were some of the greatest nfl teams ever put together.. no shame in losing to them... No shame in Elway losing to the 49ers and Redskins and Giants either....

But much more of the load was on Elways back..

so lets put this argument in its proper perspective... Super Bowls mean alot, but all of the accomplishments taken and considered as a whole is what determines a great QB....

Marino made what? 1 super bowl? :confusedshrug: some still consider him the greatest QB to ever play the game...

If you ask me, big ben is not able to perform the way Elway did.. no knock against Ben, because he a very good Qb with a bright future.. He's mobile, big, smart.... but he isnt John Elway or on that level

[Carbine]

I don't buy that though. You can say it all you want, but until you show WHY you think that it means nothing.

Here is how I see it.

Both make/made plays with their feet. Not exactly to rush the ball either, but to extend plays and give their above average recievers more time to get open.

Both are as clutch as it got. Ben leads the league in combacks since joining the league. He has done it in the regular season and post-season. Much like John did.

Ben has a rocket arm. John had a rocket arm.

Both were leaders. The unquestioned leaders of the team.

In conclusion:

Both had styles that replicate one another. Both led. Both were clutch as it gets. Both champions. Both had great drives in the playoffs. Both have rocket arms. Both scramble.

Far more in common between those two then you think.

[Carbine]

nobody said Elway carried his team to the 2 super bowl wins

prime did, that's why this whole thing got started. He said John "led" his teams, but Ben was winning with defense.

My thing is if John "led" his teams to those rings, then so did Ben. No other way around it.

[Rasheed1]

prime did, that's why this whole thing got started. He said John "led" his teams, but Ben was winning with defense.

My thing is if John "led" his teams to those rings, then so did Ben. No other way around it.


well, on that point I would agree...

elway was beyond his peak and couldnt (and didnt need to) do the things he did earlier in her career

[MarloStanfield]

wow, all this time I figured Carbine was knowledgeable when it came to football, with the Colts avatar, the multiple posts in football related threads and what not, but now after reading some of the tripe he has doled out in this thread I take all that back. Dayum!
Carbine is probably the most pretentious NFL fan I've encountered. Carbine, chill no need to judge other because they have separate opinions than yourself.

[phoenix18]

All though off topic, am I the only that thought that Vick would be a better quaterback than a reciever, I mean he had scraps to play with in atlanta. Why is no one giving him a second chance?

[MarloStanfield]

All though off topic, am I the only that thought that Vick would be a better quaterback than a reciever, I mean he had scraps to play with in atlanta. Why is no one giving him a second chance?
Mainly because it could be a PR nightmare signing him. He is 30 years old almost and has been away from the game for a few years/not in football shape.

[phoenix18]

Mainly because it could be a PR nightmare signing him. He is 30 years old almost and has been away from the game for a few years/not in football shape.
Yeah but you cant tell me that he isnt better than all of the backups in the nfl. He can throw with both hands. Damn, man he is more talented than anyone ever besides Barry Sanders.

[Carbine]

How do I make unjustified claims? I've pointed how exactly how and why I think something everytime.

I didn't say Ben Roethlisberger was no question better than John Elway - just that they are comparable and that their playing styles are the same. He's the modern day John Elway, which is true. He's the closesnt thing in playing style and how he impacts a game that is currently playing.

It's not my fault that people disagree with the obvious. There has never been a time where I've made an outlandish claim. If you can give me one example, please provide it as I'm unaware of these statements that make me "pretentious."

[MarloStanfield]

How do I make unjustified claims? I've pointed how exactly how and why I think something everytime.

I didn't say Ben Roethlisberger was no question better than John Elway - just that they are comparable and that their playing styles are the same. He's the modern day John Elway, which is true. He's the closesnt thing in playing style and how he impacts a game that is currently playing.

It's not my fault that people disagree with the obvious. There has never been a time where I've made an outlandish claim. If you can give me one example, please provide it as I'm unaware of these statements that make me "pretentious."
Examples of what makes you pretentious: When you start threads attempting to gauge ones football knowledge in hopes of determining if the poster is readable or not.

By stating that Primetime is an inferior football than yourself because his opinion varies from your own. Basically insulting him for having another opinion. Quite lame.

[Carbine]

That doesn't make me pretentious. I don't make unjustified claims to make myself look smart. I've never posted like that - however when somebody is so stupid that it hurts reading, I have to point out their faulty thinking.

It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to back it up with faulty logic.

Prime said Elway was leading his teams to superbowl victories, while Ben was winning with defense and not offense. I can't put it any other way except that he's wrong. So I called him on it and showed him exactly why he was wrong. If people didn't make claims they can't back up (such as primes latest) then I wouldn't need to go in length to expose their opinons as faulty ones.

[MarloStanfield]

That doesn't make me pretentious. I don't make unjustified claims to make myself look smart. I've never posted like that - however when somebody is so stupid that it hurts reading, I have to point out their faulty thinking.

It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to back it up with faulty logic.

Prime said Elway was leading his teams to superbowl victories, while Ben was winning with defense and not offense. I can't put it any other way except that he's wrong. So I called him on it and showed him exactly why he was wrong. If people didn't make claims they can't back up (such as primes latest) then I wouldn't need to go in length to expose their opinons as faulty ones.
Do you have any friends in real life?

[Dasher]

Do you have any friends in real life?e-friends are all that matters.

[Carbine]

:confusedshrug:

[MarloStanfield]

:confusedshrug:
no offense but you just come off as such an ass. if your e-persona is in anyway indicative of how you converse with people in the real world i highly doubt you have advanced social skills. you have casual social skills as best.

[Carbine]

What does me debunking another persons opinion have to do with social skills?

You should be thankful I took the time to post what I did. I'm sure nobody will make the mistake of claiming Ben won with defense, but Elway "led" his team anymore with the info I provided.

[MarloStanfield]

What does me debunking another persons opinion have to do with social skills?

You should be thankful I took the time to post what I did. I'm sure nobody will make the mistake of claiming Ben won with defense, but Elway "led" his team anymore with the info I provided.
You're failing to get the point. The argument about Elway and Ben is irrelevant. It's about how you conduct yourself and the way you come off is very abrasive. Okay, you disagree with Primetime's opinion but you do not have to in turn put him down and go off on a tangent how about his inferior football knowledge. That's just lame and you come off as a nerd.

[Carbine]

Example:

Someone says Mike Pollack (Colts) is a better RG than S.Andrews from Philly, wouldn't you feel the need to educate them on why their wrong?\

That doesn't make you an ass. That doesn't make your social skills poor. It's just telling it how it is.

[MarloStanfield]

Example:

Someone says Mike Pollack (Colts) is a better RG than S.Andrews from Philly, wouldn't you feel the need to educate them on why their wrong?\

That doesn't make you an ass. That doesn't make your social skills poor. It's just telling it how it is.
Yes but I would do it in a manner that didn't make them feel like a huge idiot and without putting them down in the process.

[Carbine]

His opinion was so wrong that it's hard to say "well prime, your entitled to your opinion, lets just call it a day"

Anyone who claims what he claimed doesn't really know what they're talking about. No educated fan of football would say what he said. He types just to type, I think, at times when it comes to football history. It's not my fault that he talks out of his ass, is it?

[-primetime-]

His opinion was so wrong that it's hard to say "well prime, your entitled to your opinion, lets just call it a day"

Anyone who claims what he claimed doesn't really know what they're talking about. No educated fan of football would say what he said. He types just to type, I think, at times when it comes to football history. It's not my fault that he talks out of his ass, is it?

I honestly think you are kind of killing yourself here just by all the insults and arrogance...


saying that Elway was more of a leader than Ben is IN NO WAY at all "talking out of my ass"...

Elway was an NFL MVP....and a Super Bowl MVP...

Ben had one of the greatest defenses ever and had Harrison not made a freakin 100 yard INT TD run (A 14 POINT DIFFERENCE IN THE GAME!!!) then Ben wouldn't have even been able to make that drive where he passed the ball to THE SUPER BOWL MVP!!!!

that defense lead the team the entire year...Ben played like piss most of the year and it shows in his stats...

that is really all I need to say about it...

If you dissagree then you dissagree...they are both "opinions"...not "facts"...it is impossible to prove or dissprove either one of us...



*waits to read about turnovers in SBs with Elway for the 5th time

[Carbine]

Can you not read?

Elways defense gave up under 11 points per game in the playoffs in one superbowl run and also caused 13 turnovers in 3 games for an average of like 4.3 turnovers a game!

John didn't lead them bud. Not more than Ben did this past year. Not only did John have a more productive defense playing for him that year, he also had a dominant run game to help him and wideouts that were a bit better as well.

The other year they won it the defense was again causing turnovers and Davis was running wild.

It just baffled my mind that you could say John "led" the Broncos here and then turn around and say Ben won with his defense in the playoffs. John had a more productive defense playing for him, had a far more dominant run game to fall back on and had better weapons to throw to.

It's the wrong opinion. You're wrong for thinking that way.

[knickballer]

Most qb's today are faster, even the white QB's. Alot of qb's run a 4.7-4.8 today..

[-primetime-]

*waits to read about turnovers in SBs with Elway for the 5th time

Can you not read?

Elways defense gave up under 11 points per game in the playoffs in one superbowl run and also caused 13 turnovers in 3 games for an average of like 4.3 turnovers a game!


:lol

[Carbine]

Why laugh? It the truth really that funny to you?

You continue to point out the Steelers great defense (it is) but fail to realize that the Broncos and John had a more productive defense and a far better running game a slightly better weapons for John to fall back on.



IMO Elway won those rings with great QB play...where it was the defense that led the Steelers last year, not Ben...I know you don't agree with that, but that is why I think it is silly to compare them...

That's what you wrote. Elway won those rings with great quarterback play? Wrong. His defense and running game were just as important. Did he play well? Sure, but he didn't do anything that Ben didn't do last year.

Then you said Ben was led by his defense, and if that's the case with Ben in your opinion, then you have to say the EXACT same thing for John Elway in his superbowl winning years as well because he had a more productive defense and more dominant running game.

[-primetime-]

were those defenses the best in the NFL?

I know they had their players...

http://campussqueeze.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/romo.jpg

but were they #1 in the NFL against the pass and rush????

hands down the best???...no questions asked???

did they have the defensive MVP???


or was it Elway working with Davis and Sharpe that year???

and don't bring up ONE game like some Romo hater that just likes to point at the muffed snap...

Elway led that team...his whole career

I can't bring myself to say the same about Ben...

[Carbine]

Why are you talking about thier whole careers when I'm talking about the two years they won a superbowl? I'm not stupid, of course Elway was the one main-stay for the Broncos his whole career and he certainly did lead them, just not by himself or anything close to it for those two superbowls.

Again, though, if you're going to say Elway led them to superbowl victories... the same thing needs to be said for Ben last year. You can't have a more productive defesne and dominant run game to go along with better weapons and say he was "leading" them and turn around and say Ben was winning with defense when in fact he had a less productive one, and also a far less dominant run game and less weapons.

That's just common sense.



but were they #1 in the NFL against the pass and rush????

hands down the best???...no questions asked???

did they have the defensive MVP???

Does it matter what they do in the regular season? Sure, to an extent, but what if they don't perform up to par in the post-season (they didn't)... should we just say "ah well, who cares, they were still dominant in the regular season."

Nah man. I'll be the first one to tell you that while our run defense was pathetic in our super bowl winning year during the regular season, it stepped up like crazy in the post-season and along with the rest of the defense is the x-factor to why we won the whole thing. Peyton didn't single-handedly win them a ring, he had a lot of help that he didn't recieve in previous years or following years.

What it comes down to is it does matter how you do in the playoffs. Broncos defense > Steelers defense in the playoffs, you know... when it really mattered. Broncos run game >>> Steelers run game without question.

Was Pitts defense better? Yeah, it probably was on paper..... but it didn't play better when it mattered.

[-primetime-]

well I do have to admitt that when looking at Elways stats one would think that the guy did coast on his team...and that he really wasn't all that great...similiar to what I think of Ben right now...


was it really that different just 15 years ago to the point that a QB having a 80.0 passer rating was great???

Montana/Young didn't have ratings like that...


I wasn't NFL savy enough (like most here) to judge Elway in his early years...I only remember the last few where he was winning Super Bowls and was aready considered one of the greatest before that...


IDK Carb...You may very well be bringing up a good point here...but at the same time I think you are WAY overrating Ben...

I am someone that ranks post season play for QBs way ahead of the regular season...

I wouldn't mind seeing post season stats for both....but I can't find a source for Elway's post season numbers...


by the way...where do you rank Elway "all time"???

like top 5???

top 10???

top 15???

[Jackass18]

Prime said Elway was leading his teams to superbowl victories, while Ben was winning with defense and not offense.

The Steelers were ranked #1 in yards allowed and points allowed while their offense was 22nd in yards and 20th in points scored. Why are you overrating the hell out of Roethlisberger? He was rather mediocre last season. He looked good against bad teams, but he didn't look so stellar against the better teams. And hell, the team looked better when he wasn't playing. Check out the Redskin game for an example.

[DCL]

because white people are too damn slow to run. they have no hope to scramble. they just get sacked.

except steve young. that guy had some turbo.

[Go Getter]

Warren Moon=greatest black QB of all-time=pocket passer

Doug Williams=first ever black QB to win SB=pocket passer

Case Closed

[Carbine]

The Steelers were ranked #1 in yards allowed and points allowed while their offense was 22nd in yards and 20th in points scored. Why are you overrating the hell out of Roethlisberger? He was rather mediocre last season. He looked good against bad teams, but he didn't look so stellar against the better teams. And hell, the team looked better when he wasn't playing. Check out the Redskin game for an example.

All those rankings and they still gave up a little over 20 points per game and close to 300 yards in the playoffs. They got turnovers, but it's not like they played up to their label as the best defense. They under-performed in the playoffs.

If you're going to make a claim that they look better without Roethlisberger, then you really put a lot more faith in Byron' mobility and the offensive line then any edcauted football fan would.

You also took that comment out of context, because I have been clearly saying that if John "led" his teams to superbowl victories, then you have to say the exact same thing about Ben with this years Steelers considering that John had a more productive defense and a far more dominant rush game to help him compared to Ben this year.

You simply can't say Ben was winning with defense and John wasn't. It's against logical thinking.

[Alamо]

Cam Newton and Russell Wilson are destroying the league right now.

Last 5 games


Cam - 18 touchdowns/1 interception

Russell - 19 touchdowns/0 interceptions



Cam and Russell are known to be two the best scramblers in the league but they've been dominating with their arms this season.

[UK2K]

because in high school and ckollege, their ckoaches generally try to use them as dual threats because that wins games at those levels because of their natural superior athleticism in comparison to the caucasian QBs, and as a result they generally suffer when it ckomes to being pro-style QBs...

hopefully My boy Jamarcus Russell will change that

This.

That's why many black QB's in high school will be WR's in college. Athleticism wins you games at the lower levels, not so much when everyone is just as athletic as you are.

[TheMan]

This.

That's why many black QB's in high school will be WR's in college. Athleticism wins you games at the lower levels, not so much when everyone is just as athletic as you are.
The original scrambling QB was a white boy, Fran Tarkenton

One of the GOAT scramblers, Steve Young, also white. John Elway too. Tony Romo, Brett Favre were really good at moving around the pocket to create extra time and they weren't exactly slouches on their feet.

There's been a few black QBs who weren't very mobile like Doug Williams from the 80's/early 90's (won a SB with Washington), I don't recall Warren Moon being nifty on his feet AFAICR.

Cam Newton and Russell Wilson are doing just fine in the NFL.

Scrambling isn't a black thing, Aaron Rodgers, to me, is as much a threat on his feet as he is with his arm. He's very good at picking up crucial first downs with his legs, so frustrating as a Bears fan :lol

[UK2K]

The original scrambling QB was a white boy, Fran Tarkenton

One of the GOAT scramblers, Steve Young, also white. John Elway too. Tony Romo, Brett Favre were really good at moving around the pocket to create extra time and they weren't exactly slouches on their feet.

There's been a few black QBs who weren't very mobile like Doug Williams from the 80's/early 90's (won a SB with Washington), I don't recall Warren Moon being nifty on his feet AFAICR.

Cam Newton and Russell Wilson are doing just fine in the NFL.

Scrambling isn't a black thing, Aaron Rodgers, to me, is as much a threat on his feet as he is with his arm. He's very good at picking up crucial first downs with his legs, so frustrating as a Bears fan :lol

Scrambling is an athletic thing, and the most athletic QB's tend to be black. Because of that, they never really developed the skills needed to maneuver in the pocket and read defenses, because they never had to.

Rodgers will run, Luck will run, Cam will run. But none of those three are more reliant on the threat of them running than the threat of them throwing a deep bomb.

[stalkerforlife]

Scared of that big hit.

QBs have to be the toughest men on the field...they are blind to the cowardly hits put on them.

But Russell and Cam are showing some balls recently.

[UK2K]

Scared of that big hit.

QBs have to be the toughest men on the field...they are blind to the cowardly hits put on them.

But Russell and Cam are showing some balls recently.

I feel like I'd rather take a hit on the move then when I was standing still and don't see it coming.

[tpols]

Scrambling is an athletic thing, and the most athletic QB's tend to be black. Because of that, they never really developed the skills needed to maneuver in the pocket and read defenses, because they never had to.

Rodgers will run, Luck will run, Cam will run. But none of those three are more reliant on the threat of them running than the threat of them throwing a deep bomb.

from what ive seen Rodgers, and Romo mostly run just to buy time for a WR to get open.. extending the play is best way to find a hole in the defense. Cam and Russ run to run. And of course have like triple the rushing stats of any other QB.

[UK2K]

from what ive seen Rodgers, and Romo mostly run just to buy time for a WR to get open.. extending the play is best way to find a hole in the defense. Cam and Russ run to run. And of course have like triple the rushing stats of any other QB.
Phillips rivers is also the master of buying time.

Watchung him maneuver in the pocket, dodging tackles and using his blockers, all while keeping his eyes down field... it's a thing of beauty.

[32jazz]

Scrambling is an athletic thing, and the most athletic QB's tend to be black. Because of that, they never really developed the skills needed to maneuver in the pocket and read defenses, because they never had to.

Rodgers will run, Luck will run, Cam will run. But none of those three are more reliant on the threat of them running than the threat of them throwing a deep bomb.

1st time I've ever partially agreed with UK2k.

Michael Vick ran an official 4.33 & has been clocked at 4.25 & didn't have to always stand in the pocket & deliver the ball when he can bolt like a jack rabbit .

Tom Brady ran a 5.2 in the 40 :facepalm so people like him & Manning ,since they were in High School ,learn to stand in the pocket , don't panic , learn to slip defenders ,subtle footwork , manuevers ,etc.......



The same reason many 3 point point specialists aren't the quickest Basketball players since they have to develop their outside shot because they can't beat defenders off the dribble.

Michael Jordan was quick enough to not worry about long range shots when he could blow by a lot of defenders. Doesn't mean he could not have developed the skill. Just unnecessary for the most part.

[Nanners]

I wouldnt say "all" black QBs are scramblers, there are definitely exceptions.

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/jameis-winston.jpg

[Smook B]

I wouldnt say "all" black QBs are scramblers, there are definitely exceptions.

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/jameis-winston.jpg

5 rushing TDs :confusedshrug:

[32jazz]

This.

That's why many black QB's in high school will be WR's in college. Athleticism wins you games at the lower levels, not so much when everyone is just as athletic as you are.


I mostly agree with you about immobile QBs from an early age learning pocket presence / passing skills while mobile QBs can just run when things breakdown instead of standing in the pocket until the last minute.



But to say running QBs can only win at lower levels?

Russell Wilson ran for nearly 1000 yards last season before losing on the last play of the Superbowl & won a ring not being the Traditional passing QB. Tearing it up passing lately though.


Vick went to 1 or 2( ?) NFC Championships & lost to another mobile QB who had adjusted his game somewhat & ran less( McNabb).


A running QB can have some success if he can stay healthy ,but I agree they will need to gain more pocket presence to get others involved to be an elite QB.

[Nanners]

5 rushing TDs :confusedshrug:

so? kirk cousins has 5 rushing TDs

winston ran a 5.0 in the 40... hes not a "scrambler"

[oarabbus]

I mostly agree with you about immobile QBs from an early age learning pocket presence / passing skills while mobile QBs can just run when things breakdown instead of standing in the pocket until the last minute.



But to say running QBs can only win at lower levels?

Russell Wilson ran for nearly 1000 yards last season before losing on the last play of the Superbowl & won a ring not being the Traditional passing QB. Tearing it up passing lately though.


Vick went to 1 or 2( ?) NFC Championships & lost to another mobile QB who had adjusted his game somewhat & ran less( McNabb).


A running QB can have some success if he can stay healthy ,but I agree they will need to gain more pocket presence to get others involved to be an elite QB.


He's not saying running qb's cannot be successful in the NFL. He's saying that at lower levels of football play (high school especially), the athleticism difference is especially pronounced and a running QB can win games purely based of their athleticism. Most of the most athletic players tend to be black as well.

Once you get to college and the pros, the overall level of athleticism greatly increases and a running QB who wins becomes much rarer.

[32jazz]

He's not saying running qb's cannot be successful in the NFL. He's saying that at lower levels of football play (high school especially), the athleticism difference is especially pronounced and a running QB can win games purely based of their athleticism. Most of the most athletic players tend to be black as well.

Once you get to college and the pros, the overall level of athleticism greatly increases and a running QB who wins becomes much rarer.


Point well taken on the ' rarer' .

But great lower level pocket passers also have less success as the talent & speed increases. See Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Matt Leinhart, Brady Quinn, Tommy Maddox, David Carr, Joey Harrington , David Klinger, Rick mirer, Heath Shuler, Marinovich,etc.......


But I agree that Tom Brady running a 5.2 had to develop pocket skills early on as opposed to Wilson or Vick( 4.33 ) .


You may get some empty wins like the bust Vince Young( 31-19 as a starter with 2 playoff wins) or Tebow , but NFL defenses will not respect you/ your offense if you can't consistently make them pay by standing in the pocket & delivering strikes.



Point well taken though.

[Godzuki]

because black guys aren't good at staying in the pocket and taking hits. they would rather dodge the rusher and scramble than commit to the throw and absorb the punishment.

its just like in boxing. all of the whities have the best chins like Rocky. Apollo was all offense and as soon as Drago started laying into him he got destroyed.

same with MMA. black guys are the best at dishing it but can't take it. just like on ISH they can throw but can't handle godzuki's punches which usually result in KO's :pimp:

[oarabbus]

because black guys aren't good at staying in the pocket and taking hits. they would rather dodge the rusher and scramble than commit to the throw and absorb the punishment.

its just like in boxing. all of the whities have the best chins like Rocky. Apollo was all offense and as soon as Drago started laying into him he got destroyed.

same with MMA. black guys are the best at dishing it but can't take it. just like on ISH they can throw but can't handle godzuki's punches which usually result in KO's :pimp:


Did you know there are black running backs?

[TheMan]

Did you know there are black running backs?
and wide recievers...

Godzuki is just a retard.

[Godzuki]

and wide recievers...

Godzuki is just a retard.

spoken like a true godzuki KO statistic :applause:

[ROCSteady]

I'm watching a piece on Derrick Thomas, Chiefs pass rushing great for you ignants, and I can't help but notice Joe Montana has on what looks like a pair of white L.A. Gear QB cleats.


I should look up how many rushing yards he had in those puppies

[nathanjizzle]

because they are fast and they are fast because their knee grows.