I wanna know how Ricky Rubio's ceiling is higher than Rondo's

[mrhoopfan]

I'm tired of all the hype! The next Stockton, Maravich the next Nash. Those two guys were all accurate shooters !. People on this board talk about how Boston's system fits Rondo perfectly........no, it doesn't. If he was on a team where he could shoot/drive at will(like he can now without KG) then this guy would average 20. I think Rubio will be solid but when we have Americans that are great ball players and we go and throw constant hype on a foreigner, it bugs me. :banghead: I can't name a European point guard that has been very successful in the NBA.

[2LeTTeRS]

I'm tired of all the hype! The next Stockton, Maravich the next Nash. Those two guys were all accurate shooters !. People on this board talk about how Boston's system fits Rondo perfectly........no, it doesn't. If he was on a team where he could shoot/drive at will(like he can now without KG) then this guy would average 20. I think Rubio will be solid but when we have Americans that are great ball players and we go and throw constant hype on a foreigner, it bugs me. :banghead: I can't name a European point guard that has been very successful in the NBA.

I don't know enough about this Rubio kid to say how good he can be, but Jose Calderon is a pretty damn good PG that came from Europe. I do have one question though, can Rubio speak English? As a point guard its important that he's able to communicate with his team.

[Grinder]

Rubio's shot is not bad at all. He's got a nice set shot, the problem is he won't be able to get it off the dribble and pull up.

He's shooting 43% from beyond the arc in the Spanish league and 80% from the FT line.

In 21 minutes per game, Ricky's averaging 10 points, 6 assists, 2 rebounds, and 2 steals per game. Gotta also take into account that he's been playing through a wrist injury on his shooting hand the majority of the year.

Brandon Jennings was the number one high school prospect last year and he's averging 6 points and 2 assists a game on a worse team and league.

[mrhoopfan]

I don't know enough about this Rubio kid to say how good he can be, but Jose Calderon is a pretty damn good PG that came from Europe. I do have one question though, can Rubio speak English? As a point guard its important that he's able to communicate with his team.

Calderon has an excellent skill set but that hasn't translated to wins. I can't believe that toronto is not more talented than the 76ers. Toronto didn't get it done this year with Calderon as the full time pg.

[loot]

the next shaun livingston - length

[2LeTTeRS]

Calderon has an excellent skill set but that hasn't translated to wins. I can't believe that toronto is not more talented than the 76ers. Toronto didn't get it done this year with Calderon as the full time pg.

Ok, if you don't like that one how about Tony Parker.

[mrhoopfan]

Rubio's shot is not bad at all. He's got a nice set shot, the problem is he won't be able to get it off the dribble and pull up.

He's shooting 43% from beyond the arc in the Spanish league and 80% from the FT line.

And all the guys like Nash, Stockton, Maravich can/could pull up on a dime. Ty Lawson shoots 50% from the college line, and he's in the same boat as you described for Rubio, meaning he shoots well off of a penetrate and pitch.

[mrhoopfan]

Ok, if you don't like that one how about Tony Parker.
Aha! good point. maybe I was thinking white Euro

[2LeTTeRS]

Aha! good point. maybe I was thinking white Euro

Don't feel bad I was thinking the exact same thing at first. That's why it took me awhile to think of Parker.

[Dasher]

Ok, if you don't like that one how about Tony Parker.Tony Parker's father is from the Chi, and he plays like a Chicago point guard.

[Unknown]

Tony Parker's father is from the Chi, and he plays like a Chicago point guard.

What National team does he play for again?
What Continent was he born on again?

You can't make exceptions just because the OP was proven wrong.

[Bush4Ever]

From what I have seen, Rubio will be more towards Nash's revolving door defense than Stockton's relatively tight defense.

He *could* be a better passer (although Rondo is extremely efficient with the ball and the most underrated passer in the game today IMO), and probably will be a better shooter, but defensively....no.

[Dasher]

What National team does he play for again?
What Continent was he born on again?

You can't make exceptions just because the OP was proven wrong.He was born an American citizen. I was born in the Bahamas, but I was an American at birth as well. His brother played for the University of Illinois Chicago for a reason. Tony is an real exception to the Euro PG rule, and the main reason for that is because his father is a former American basketball player, and you can see the Chicago in his game. Tony also refined his game in America, and was mentored further by Pop. His game is as American as they come.

[mrhoopfan]

What National team does he play for again?
What Continent was he born on again?

You can't make exceptions just because the OP was proven wrong.

The OP was honestly thinking white Euro.....AND no one has still been able to say how Rubio has a higher ceiling than Rondo who was picked like 20th in the draft....

[mrhoopfan]

From what I have seen, Rubio will be more towards Nash's revolving door defense than Stockton's relatively tight defense.

He *could* be a better passer (although Rondo is extremely efficient with the ball and the most underrated passer in the game today IMO), and probably will be a better shooter, but defensively....no.

I'm playing devil's advocate for sure but when you say better shooter what do you mean. Because Rondo makes 51% of his shots

[Bush4Ever]

I'm playing devil's advocate for sure but when you say better shooter what do you mean. Because Rondo makes 51% of his shots

I mean shooter as in outside shooter. From what I have seen from Rubio, he has a good set shot, but can't really do much off of the dribble.

Rondo is an efficient shooter, but he takes relatively low risk shots (which is good/smart for his currently skill level at outside shooting).

[Unknown]

He was born an American citizen. I was born in the Bahamas, but I was an American at birth as well. His brother played for the University of Illinois Chicago for a reason. Tony is an real exception to the Euro PG rule, and the main reason for that is because his father is a former American basketball player, and you can see the Chicago in his game. Tony also refined his game in America, and was mentored further by Pop. His game is as American as they come.

He was born in Belgium and raised in Paris. His father playing in Chicago however many years earlier has nothing to do with him being 'American'. His dad played the majority of his career in France. Furthermore, he was in Europe until 2001 until he was drafted (19 years). He played at an amateur level and professional level in France before coming to America. Just because he had outside help from his dad doesn't make him an American because you want him to be.

I live in Australia, but my dad, a Yugoslavian army office taught me how to play. So does that mean I can be a Yugoslavian player because my dad taught me how to play? My style is European, but I haven't been there since I was 3 months old. Sure, I'd probably be eligible, but is it right? Just because your family is from somewhere, or played somewhere differently doesn't automatically make you part of that country.

[Dasher]

Tony's style is not European, and he is just as American as Joe Alexander, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, or Hakeem Olajuwon. The bulk of his professional development occurred in the states. His original mentor, and the professional coach who molded his game were Americans.

[Unknown]

The OP was honestly thinking white Euro.....AND no one has still been able to say how Rubio has a higher ceiling than Rondo who was picked like 20th in the draft....

Who and what determines 'ceiling' anyway?

No matter what, all you're going to get from that topic is bias. One person will say this because he sees something another person doesn't. There's not a point in arguing it because you wont ever get an honest answer out of anyone. Everyone has their own agenda, and their own perception of a player. No one is wrong, but it's incredibly hard to argue with someone who ignores anything you write because it doesn't make his case look good.

In my opinion, Rubio has a chance to be a 19/10 player. But that's because I've watched him play countless times (as my dad loves the Euroleague), and honestly believe he has a chance to be a special player, given his age (not even 18), and skills at this point. It's a rarity to see a guy average 6 assists per game in the Euroleague, especially in half a game. But there's always counter-arguments, of course, like he's weak. But he's quick, and very, very smart. His skills are at a perfect level right now. Most players improve dramatically at age 19-20, so he probably isn't even one-third of the way to develpoing into the player he could be.

[Unknown]

Tony's style is not European, and he is just as American as Joe Alexander, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, or Hakeem Olajuwon. The bulk of his professional development occurred in the states. His original mentor, and the professional coach who molded his game were Americans.

Eh.

Born in Belgium
Played in France
Developed in France until age 19

When Rubio comes here, will he also be American when a coach plays and starts him?

[Dasher]

Eh.

Born in Belgium
Played in France
Developed in France until age 19

When Rubio comes here, will he also be American when a coach plays and starts him?Rubio's dad is not from the Southside of Chicago, but in order to be successful Ricky will have to molded to being able to play the American style, which stresses pick and roll play, drive and kick ability, and the ability to defend with your feet instead of your hands. Rubio's set shot will have to be discarded, an adequate pull up jumper will have to replace it, and he will have to get used to not being able to maul defenders while on defense.

[adamcz]

Rubio won't neccessarily be better than Rondo, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be drafted highly. You can tell by the youtube highlights of Rubio that he's already as good as lots of NBA PGs - I think he's a starting caliber player for sure, and that's worth a lot in the draft.

Keep in mind that if the '06 draft were re-done, Rondo would be a top 5 pick. Possibly even the #2 pick after Roy (and ahead of Aldridge, Bargnani and Thomas). The fact that he fell so low in the draft was a fluke, and it doesn't mean that players who are "only" that good should also fall so low in the draft.

[Unknown]

Obviously a lost cause, arguing this.

Parker is European; French. That's that. There's no discarding that. If he were a normal human being, you wouldn't give a **** if his education was American. You'd still call him a Frenchman because that's where he was raised - his whole life was spent there.

Edit: Meant for Dasher.

[Dasher]

Actually there is an argument for him having a great deal of American influence in his life and game. Should the impact of the man who sired him and introduced him to the game be discarded? The answer to that is no. His American roots is evident in his game.

[loot]

His American roots is evident in his game.


they are evident in every basketball player.

parker = french

are you gonna tell us rik smits was american too? detlef schrempf? toni kukoc?

[Dasher]

they are evident in every basketball player.

parker = french

are you gonna tell us rik smits was american too? detlef schrempf? toni kukoc?Different circumstances. Do they have American fathers as well?

[loot]

Different circumstances. Do they have American fathers as well?

it doesnt matter. rik smits and schrempf went to us colleges. you can see that in their games too. doesnt make them american. parker is what he is.

[Dasher]

parker is what he is.A Franco-American point guard.

[mrhoopfan]

Who and what determines 'ceiling' anyway?

No matter what, all you're going to get from that topic is bias. One person will say this because he sees something another person doesn't. There's not a point in arguing it because you wont ever get an honest answer out of anyone. Everyone has their own agenda, and their own perception of a player. No one is wrong, but it's incredibly hard to argue with someone who ignores anything you write because it doesn't make his case look good.

In my opinion, Rubio has a chance to be a 19/10 player. But that's because I've watched him play countless times (as my dad loves the Euroleague), and honestly believe he has a chance to be a special player, given his age (not even 18), and skills at this point. It's a rarity to see a guy average 6 assists per game in the Euroleague, especially in half a game. But there's always counter-arguments, of course, like he's weak. But he's quick, and very, very smart. His skills are at a perfect level right now. Most players improve dramatically at age 19-20, so he probably isn't even one-third of the way to develpoing into the player he could be.

Good post. i like to play devil's advocate definitely but i honestly get annoyed when our american players( Jonny Flynn for example) get overlooked and all the hype goes to a foreigner...And I also think he plays nothing like Stockton or nash but gets the comparison because they are good white guards, he plays like a weaker, bit slower Jason Kidd more than anything

[Jinxed]

From what I have seen, Rubio will be more towards Nash's revolving door defense than Stockton's relatively tight defense.

He *could* be a better passer (although Rondo is extremely efficient with the ball and the most underrated passer in the game today IMO), and probably will be a better shooter, but defensively....no.

Ricky Rubio won Defensive player of the year this year in the Spanish ACB league. He's 18. In his first year in the Euroleague at age 16 he averaged almost 4 steals a game in only 18 minutes per game.

He is the most exciting defensive player I have ever seen. Seriously. He had six steals against team USA in the two games they played against them in the Olympics. He stripped Paul a few times, just straight took it from him off the dribble. Chris Paul.

Here was Rubio's stat line from his last game in the ACB.

13 pts, 7 assts, 6 steals.

And 'could' be a better passer? WHHAAT? He's 10 times the passer Rondo is right now..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12FOZsjWxwk

He's a better passer, shooter and defender than Rondo is RIGHT NOW. That's how he has more ceiling.

[GoldMedallist]

Is this about if they are American or not? or white/black?

Rubio can be a high pick, if Rondo was a 20th it was manager's fault, not Ricky.

Was Kwame brown a good first pick?
Was Ginobili a good 57?

Please, don't blame the kid for being white or Rondo's low selection.

[Glo41]

Good post. i like to play devil's advocate definitely but i honestly get annoyed when our american players( Jonny Flynn for example) get overlooked and all the hype goes to a foreigner...And I also think he plays nothing like Stockton or nash but gets the comparison because they are good white guards, he plays like a weaker, bit slower Jason Kidd more than anything
Jason Kidd is exactly what I thought as well. Not a good shooter, slow shot, and the amazing vision. He only lacks the speed and athleticism of a young Jason Kidd really.

[loot]

Jason Kidd is exactly what I thought as well. Not a good shooter, slow shot, and the amazing vision. He only lacks the speed and athleticism of a young Jason Kidd really.
and the body. kidd is an ovedrsized pg. rubio is undersized and will get pushed around. imagine rubio playing back to the basket like kidd or gp

[mrhoopfan]

Ricky Rubio won Defensive player of the year this year in the Spanish ACB league. He's 18. In his first year in the Euroleague at age 16 he averaged almost 4 steals a game in only 18 minutes per game.

He is the most exciting defensive player I have ever seen. Seriously. He had six steals against team USA in the two games they played against them in the Olympics. He stripped Paul a few times, just straight took it from him off the dribble. Chris Paul.

Here was Rubio's stat line from his last game in the ACB.

13 pts, 7 assts, 6 steals.

And 'could' be a better passer? WHHAAT? He's 10 times the passer Rondo is right now..



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12FOZsjWxwk

He's a better passer, shooter and defender than Rondo is RIGHT NOW. That's how he has more ceiling.


Speaking of Olympics, didn't Rubio shoot 28% in those games....:confusedshrug:

[Glo41]

and the body. kidd is an ovedrsized pg. rubio is undersized and will get pushed around. imagine rubio playing back to the basket like kidd or gp
Good point I forgot. Rubio does look like a pretty tall PG though. He will never be a back to the basket point guard, but I can see him running the break ala Jason Kidd.

[Bush4Ever]

Ricky Rubio won Defensive player of the year this year in the Spanish ACB league. He's 18. In his first year in the Euroleague at age 16 he averaged almost 4 steals a game in only 18 minutes per game.

He is the most exciting defensive player I have ever seen. Seriously. He had six steals against team USA in the two games they played against them in the Olympics. He stripped Paul a few times, just straight took it from him off the dribble. Chris Paul.

Here was Rubio's stat line from his last game in the ACB.

13 pts, 7 assts, 6 steals.

And 'could' be a better passer? WHHAAT? He's 10 times the passer Rondo is right now..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12FOZsjWxwk

He's a better passer, shooter and defender than Rondo is RIGHT NOW. That's how he has more ceiling.

Dude...defensive player in the euroleague. There is a significant period of defensive adjustment for virtually any NBA player, especially international players. I probably should have been a little more clear in my original post. I don't think he will be Nash-like on defense, but rather "average".

Rondo made an all-defensive team in the NBA.

In terms of passing, Rondo averaged 8+ assists per game WHILE only turning the ball over 2.6 times per game. That combination is very hard to find in point guards.

In terms of defense and passing effectiveness, Rondo has done everything Rubio has done...at a higher level (NBA vs. Euros).

I'm more than willing to be proven wrong (I really like watching him play), I'm just being a healthy skeptic.

[mrhoopfan]

Is this about if they are American or not? or white/black?

Rubio can be a high pick, if Rondo was a 20th it was manager's fault, not Ricky.

Was Kwame brown a good first pick?
Was Ginobili a good 57?

Please, don't blame the kid for being white or Rondo's low selection.


Nobody said Kwame was going to be the next Karl malone and although he was #1 pick (worst ever), the hype machine was not on full blast like it is now for this kid

[Jinxed]

and the body. kidd is an ovedrsized pg. rubio is undersized and will get pushed around. imagine rubio playing back to the basket like kidd or gp

He's 6'4 and 18. The kid could be 6'5 by the time he stops growing. How much did Jason Kidd weigh when he was 18? More than 180? Sure he may never have Jason Kidd's build and may never play in the post, but he's not a small point guard, or at least he won't be when he becomes a man.

[loot]

He's 6'4 and 18. The kid could be 6'5 by the time he stops growing. How much did Jason Kidd weigh when he was 18? More than 180? Sure he may never have Jason Kidd's build and may never play in the post, but he's not a small point guard, or at least he won't be when he becomes a man.

he'll never be a player like gp or kidd.

[Jinxed]

Dude...defensive player in the euroleague. There is a significant period of defensive adjustment for virtually any NBA player, especially international players. I probably should have been a little more clear in my original post. I don't think he will be Nash-like on defense, but rather "average".

Rondo made an all-defensive team in the NBA.

In terms of passing, Rondo averaged 8+ assists per game WHILE only turning the ball over 2.6 times per game. That combination is very hard to find in point guards.

In terms of defense and passing effectiveness, Rondo has done everything Rubio has done...at a higher level (NBA vs. Euros).

I'm more than willing to be proven wrong (I really like watching him play), I'm just being a healthy skeptic.

That's cool man. Skepticism is what's needed right now. His hype is unreal, and it will be sad if he doesn't live up to expectations. And it will be interesting to see how Rubio handles NBA defense, where right now if you are a wing player, it's almost as if you aren't even allowed to play D. Rubio is very physical and probably couldn't get away with some of the stuff he does in Europe. And yea, Rondo is a great defender and an efficient offensive player..Rubio is more balls to the wall on both defense and offense. He's high risk. But Rondo's first year in the NBA he had only a 2:1 asst to TO ratio. He's improved dramatically.

Rubio still has 5 years to go before he is as old as Rondo.

[loot]

rubio's footworks isnt good either.

[mrhoopfan]

What makes Rubio that much better than my man Nick Calathes? (scouting report below)

What makes Calathes so effective is in his ability to control the pace of a game. He can play an up-tempo style or run an offense in the half-court and in either fashion he seems to make good decisions. He makes great passes at the right times and to go along with his 6.5 assists a game he makes countless passes that lead to assists - contributing to the team's ball movement.

Calathes' passing ability is far and beyond his greatest skill. He sees the court unlike any other player in the country relative to his size and repeatedly makes difficult passes with either hand, creating easy shots for his teammates. At 6-5, he has great size and therefore can see over the defense - making passes that most point guards in college cannot. His great strength is also a weakness however, as he can get into trouble, attempting unreasonably difficult passes at times, which is why he's averaging 3.3 turnovers a game, which is 20th worst in the country.

Perhaps Calathes' biggest improvement from a year ago is in his shooting efficiency, where his numbers are up across the board. He's making 57% of his shots inside the arc (up from 46%) and 42.3% from 3-point range (up from 36.2%). The biggest reason for this is in his shot selection, as he's forcing the action less and recognizing when he's open and what the defense is giving him more. He's doing a much better job finishing around the basket this season, going from converting just 49% of his shots around the rim last season to a far more impressive 64% this year. This is a big development considering that he's deemed to be severely lacking both strength and athleticism by NBA standards, yet spends quite a bit of time in the paint at the collegiate level.

Calathes plays a huge role for Florida, handling the ball a great deal and having almost their entire offense revolve around him. He could definitely stand to improve his free throw shooting

[GiveItToBurrito]

He's 6'4 and 18. The kid could be 6'5 by the time he stops growing. How much did Jason Kidd weigh when he was 18? More than 180? Sure he may never have Jason Kidd's build and may never play in the post, but he's not a small point guard, or at least he won't be when he becomes a man.

Exactly. Rubio's actually got good, maybe even great size for a point guard, and even though he's not a Brandon Jennings-type athelete, I wouldn't go so far as to call him unathletic. Also, even though his shot still isn't at the level of a Calderon or Nash, I think it can be forgiven since he's still young, since most young players become better shooters.

Basketball IQ and court vision are what separates someone like Lebron James from Andre Igoudala, and Rubio's supposed to have that same special feel for the game. . Rondo's no slouch in that department, but he's not elite or legendary. Rubio's supposed to have a Kidd-like ability to read defenses and passing lanes, and that's something that you can't teach or practice.

[boozehound]

I'm tired of all the hype! The next Stockton, Maravich the next Nash. Those two guys were all accurate shooters !. People on this board talk about how Boston's system fits Rondo perfectly........no, it doesn't. If he was on a team where he could shoot/drive at will(like he can now without KG) then this guy would average 20. I think Rubio will be solid but when we have Americans that are great ball players and we go and throw constant hype on a foreigner, it bugs me. :banghead: I can't name a European point guard that has been very successful in the NBA.
this is just flat out wrong. Now, I personally think rubio will not be as good as advertised, but to suggest that rondo would/could be a dominant scorer on a team is inaccurate. his major weakness since HS has been his shot. and its not going to improve very much. as long as he has a shaky jumper (and no all star teammates to pass to), the defense can take away his drive and dare him to shoot. He is a great ball handler, passer, excellent rebounder and solid defender, but his weakness always has been his scoring, especially his outside shot.

[noob cake]

Rubio's sense of anticipation is special. His stealing ability makes Paul's look like a joke. His shooting is not as good as Calderon.

The guy is only 18 years old. As most don't know, 6 assist in europe is a godly high number. They don't count assists loosly like the NBA (peremeter pass, dribble twice, pull up jumper; ie how Paul racks up assist with David West)

Please don't compare Rondo to Rubio; Rondo is by no means a bad player or bad point guard (he is great and severely underrated at the draft, but the potential of Rubio is an GOAT type of PG.

[Younggrease]

rubio's footworks isnt good either.

in what way? thats a bold statement

[Dasher]

in what way? thats a bold statementIf he had better footwork, he would be able to put together a decent pull-up jumper. Rubio does not work the post because his footwork is suspect. He plays defense with his hands, not his feet. Again this is an indictment of his footwork. I don't view him as particularly athletic, but if he is able to tighten up his footwork he will be able to tap his physical gifts in a more efficient manner.

[Younggrease]

If he had better footwork, he would be able to put together a decent pull-up jumper. Rubio does not work the post because his footwork is suspect. He plays defense with his hands, not his feet. Again this is an indictment of his footwork. I don't view him as particularly athletic, but if he is able to tighten up his footwork he will be able to tap his physical gifts in a more efficient manner.

yeah I guess DPOY at 17 is not efficient enough defensively for someone that isnt particularly athletic. I guess you want the 17 year kid to work the post against grown men? what a joke...

And his footwork has nothing to do with his jumper, its just form. And its the same form Tony Parker had when he first came over here and he ended up just fine.

[Dasher]

yeah I guess DPOY at 17 is not efficient enough defensively for someone that isnt particularly athletic. I guess you want the 17 year kid to work the post against grown men? what a joke...

And his footwork has nothing to do with his jumper, its just form. And its the same form Tony Parker had when he first came over here and he ended up just fine.He mauls players on defense in a manner that won't be possible in the NBA. Ricky also gets special treatment on D, and appears to be flat-footed. He does not use his feet to play defense, and does a lot of reaching and grabbing, and he does not do it in a sneaky or savvy manner. It is blatant. His age is the reason why he is hyped, and his league and team has also been pushing Rubio-Mania to maintain their profile as a leading domestic league in Europe.

[el gringos]

Keep in mind that if the '06 draft were re-done, Rondo would be a top 5 pick. Possibly even the #2 pick after Roy (and ahead of Aldridge, Bargnani and Thomas).

It is more than ridiculous to think rondo would be selected ahead of bargnani or aldridge- then now or ever

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Rubio's ceiling is leaps above Rondo's. You have got to be kidding.

[noob cake]

Its okay...people don't seem to understand how hard it is to play in the pros when you are 17/18.

When you are 17/18 playing in college, you can hold your ground.

You are a 17 year old kid and is asked to play against full grown men in a pro league (more talented than college and d-league), its a daunting task.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Tony's style is not European, and he is just as American as Joe Alexander, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, or Hakeem Olajuwon. The bulk of his professional development occurred in the states. His original mentor, and the professional coach who molded his game were Americans.

Using your logic Kobe is Italian. Team USA should be sued.

[Dasher]

Using your logic Kobe is Italian. Team USA should be sued.You incorrectly used my logic. Try again.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

He's 6'4 and 18. The kid could be 6'5 by the time he stops growing. How much did Jason Kidd weigh when he was 18? More than 180? Sure he may never have Jason Kidd's build and may never play in the post, but he's not a small point guard, or at least he won't be when he becomes a man.

Rubio's official weight at age 16 is 190. The Euroleague is 6-4 190 and that's from age 16, the 180 weight comes from age 15 in Spanish league.

190 at age 16, he's 18 now. He's going to be stronger probably than any point guard in the NBA other than Billups.

[Lebron23]

It is more than ridiculous to think rondo would be selected ahead of bargnani or aldridge- then now or ever

I'd take Rondo over Bargnani and Aldridge. The kid had a Triple Double Performance in the 2008 NBA Finals.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

You incorrectly used my logic. Try again.

You don't have any logic. Kobe was developed in Italy not the US. He played in numerous competitions and youth tournaments. He was an Italian player before he was an American player. So that means Kobe is Italian. That's how pathetic your "logic" is.

[Dasher]

You don't have any logic. Kobe was developed in Italy not the US. He played in numerous competitions and youth tournaments. He was an Italian player before he was an American player. So that means Kobe is Italian. That's how pathetic your "logic" is.Try again. 0 for 2. Read carefully before you respond again.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

[QUOTE=mrhoopfan]What makes Rubio that much better than my man Nick Calathes? (scouting report below)

What makes Calathes so effective is in his ability to control the pace of a game. He can play an up-tempo style or run an offense in the half-court and in either fashion he seems to make good decisions. He makes great passes at the right times and to go along with his 6.5 assists a game he makes countless passes that lead to assists - contributing to the team's ball movement.

Calathes' passing ability is far and beyond his greatest skill. He sees the court unlike any other player in the country relative to his size and repeatedly makes difficult passes with either hand, creating easy shots for his teammates. At 6-5, he has great size and therefore can see over the defense - making passes that most point guards in college cannot. His great strength is also a weakness however, as he can get into trouble, attempting unreasonably difficult passes at times, which is why he's averaging 3.3 turnovers a game, which is 20th worst in the country.

Perhaps Calathes' biggest improvement from a year ago is in his shooting efficiency, where his numbers are up across the board. He's making 57% of his shots inside the arc (up from 46%) and 42.3% from 3-point range (up from 36.2%). The biggest reason for this is in his shot selection, as he's forcing the action less and recognizing when he's open and what the defense is giving him more. He's doing a much better job finishing around the basket this season, going from converting just 49% of his shots around the rim last season to a far more impressive 64% this year. This is a big development considering that he's deemed to be severely lacking both strength and athleticism by NBA standards, yet spends quite a bit of time in the paint at the collegiate level.

Calathes plays a huge role for Florida, handling the ball a great deal and having almost their entire offense revolve around him. He could definitely stand to improve his free throw shooting

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Try again. 0 for 2. Read carefully before you respond again.

You Sir, are a joke.

[KeylessEntry]

There is so much unwarranted Rubio hate in this thread. If any of you actually watch him play, you will know why his ceiling is higher than Rondo's. Where were you haters during the Olympic gold medal game last summer when Rubio had a solid game against the best PG's in the NBA on the biggest stage in the world?

[Dasher]

You Sir, are a joke.Strike 3. Sit your monkey ass down, and put on your thinking cap before you attempt to respond to my posts.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Strike 3. Sit your monkey ass down, and put on your thinking cap before you attempt to respond to my posts.

How many people here agree with Dasher that Tony Parker should be counted as an American baller and not a French one? Let's have a vote. Either that or have the mods delete all his embarrassing to this great forum posts in this thread.

[Samurai Swoosh]

He was born an American citizen. I was born in the Bahamas, but I was an American at birth as well. His brother played for the University of Illinois Chicago for a reason. Tony is an real exception to the Euro PG rule, and the main reason for that is because his father is a former American basketball player, and you can see the Chicago in his game. Tony also refined his game in America, and was mentored further by Pop. His game is as American as they come.
True story. I can attest as well. I've played his brother, and his brother has no french accent or anything. Didn't know TP was born an American citizen, though. Is he a duel citizen?

[FIXED]

Ricky Rubio may be the biggest bust ever in NBA history if he doesn't pan out. I mean you have guys here saying he has the potential to be better than Magic Johnson.

[Dasher]

You can't discount Tony's American lineage. His father is an American basketball player. He is a Franco-American ballplayer. Period. End of discussion. The Kobe argument does not work because both of his parents are American.


True story. I can attest as well. I've played his brother, and his brother has no french accent or anything. Didn't know TP was born an American citizen, though. Is he a duel citizen? If you are born to American parent(s) you are an American citizen. IIRC, once you vote in a foreign election, you forfeit your American citizenship. I think America is one of the only countries who is a dick about voting. It is why I don't vote in Bahamian elections.

[tastystaci]

lol @ this weak argument. Ricky Rubio is a can't miss prospect, possible GOAT pg, Rondo is a good pg in the perfect system for his particular game. If he didn't have three HOF's on his squad, the court would not be spread out, Rondo couldn't get to the rim as easily...bottom line. He is a lifetime 27% three point shooter, a lifetime 63% free throw shooter(worst numbers of any starting pg in league). The only reason his fg% is over 50% is because he gets nothing but lay-ups and floaters. People try to claim Ricky can't D-up(because he's white of course), but he won defense player of the year, not to mention had 7 steals against the U.S. team last year :roll:
EPIC FAIL.
Ricky Rubio will come into the league and be a better overall pg than Rondo. Please get your head out of your ass if you think otherwise.

[noob cake]

ISH posters > NBA Euroleague Scouts; :lol

I doubt anyone has even seen Rubio play outside the Olympics.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The Kobe argument does not work because both of his parents are American.
The Kobe argument doesn't work simply because it doesn't make any sense. Kobe is AMERICAN, through and through.

Kobe was born in the states, lived here till he was 8 years old.

Father, an American ball player took a contract in Italy. Both of his parents and all his sisters are American.

Kobe was taught the game, even while in Europe bye his father. Sure there is some nuanced things to his game that are slightily European. But he was raised on NBA videos of Jordan sent to him by his grandmother, and of course his dad's influence who was like a poor man's Magic Johnson. Especially over seas.

Every summer, even while living in Italy, Kobe's dad would fly Kobe out for the summers to play in AAU and Philly street games and keep him in competition with the best basketball talent in the world in America, cause he wasn't going to get tested like that in Italy.

Then he moved back to the states when he was what? 16? He was an American citizen living in Italy as a resident.

Then from 16 - till now he's still been in the states. Anyone who argues Kobe isn't American is remedial.

Kobe's game is as American as it gets, he's an American citizen and grew up here. Is there really any question?



If you are born to American parent(s) you are an American citizen. IIRC, once you vote in a foreign election, you forfeit your American citizenship. I think America is one of the only countries who is a dick about voting. It is why I don't vote in Bahamian elections.
Yeah.

But yes, TP has alot of American influence to his game.

[MMM]

lol @ this weak argument. Ricky Rubio is a can't miss prospect, possible GOAT pg, Rondo is a good pg in the perfect system for his particular game. If he didn't have three HOF's on his squad, the court would not be spread out, Rondo couldn't get to the rim as easily...bottom line. He is a lifetime 27% three point shooter, a lifetime 63% free throw shooter(worst numbers of any starting pg in league). The only reason his fg% is over 50% is because he gets nothing but lay-ups and floaters. People try to claim Ricky can't D-up(because he's white of course), but he won defense player of the year, not to mention had 7 steals against the U.S. team last year :roll:
EPIC FAIL.
Ricky Rubio will come into the league and be a better overall pg than Rondo. Please get your head out of your ass if you think otherwise.

Not really trying to get into this comparison of Rubio and Rondo but the bolded part is simply myth.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

The Kobe argument doesn't work simply because it doesn't make any sense. Kobe is AMERICAN, through and through.

Kobe was born in the states, lived here till he was 8 years old.

Father, an American ball player took a contract in Italy. Both of his parents and all his sisters are American.

Kobe was taught the game, even while in Europe bye his father. Sure there is some nuanced things to his game that are slightily European. But he was raised on NBA videos of Jordan sent to him by his grandmother, and of course his dad's influence who was like a poor man's Magic Johnson. Especially over seas.

Every summer, even while living in Italy, Kobe's dad would fly Kobe out for the summers to play in AAU and Philly street games and keep him in competition with the best basketball talent in the world in America, cause he wasn't going to get tested like that in Italy.

Then he moved back to the states when he was what? 16? He was an American citizen living in Italy as a resident.

Then from 16 - till now he's still been in the states. Anyone who argues Kobe isn't American is remedial.

Kobe's game is as American as it gets, he's an American citizen and grew up here. Is there really any question?



Yeah.

But yes, TP has alot of American influence to his game.

Funny because Kobe has Italian citizenship. So I guess you just don't know the facts. If you really think Parker, who was born in Belgium and has French citizenship and has French as his first and native language is simply "American" then you just might be a xenophobe.

And it's just as freaking ridiculous as insisting Kobe could only be counted as an Italian player. Yep, xenophobia at its best in this thread.

[KeylessEntry]

Not really trying to get into this comparison of Rubio and Rondo but the bolded part is simply myth.
Its not a myth. Rondo fits very well with the Celtics starters. Allen and Pierce are deadly from 3 point land, they stretch the defense. Garnett has a solid jumper too, he stretches defenses. If the Celtics did not start those 3 shooters alongside Rondo, Rondo's shooting % would plummet because he would not be getting nearly as many open layups because defenses could just collapse on him without fear of the 3 point threat on the wing. His assist totals would plummet because he would not be surrounded by good shooters. Rondo would be a horrible fit on a team like Philly, Miami, or Utah... basically anywhere without good 3 point shooters.

[tastystaci]

Its not a myth. Rondo fits very well with the Celtics starters. Allen and Pierce are deadly from 3 point land, they stretch the defense. Garnett has a solid jumper too, he stretches defenses. If the Celtics did not start those 3 shooters alongside Rondo, Rondo's shooting % would plummet because he would not be getting nearly as many open layups because defenses could just collapse on him without fear of the 3 point threat on the wing. His assist totals would plummet because he would not be surrounded by good shooters. Rondo would be a horrible fit on a team like Philly, Miami, Detroit or Utah... basically anywhere without good 3 point shooters.

:applause: Word to your mother. You just saved me from typing the above paragraph

[Samurai Swoosh]

Funny because Kobe has Italian citizenship.
Because he lived there for 8 years.

Where as he was born an America and has lived here for 22 years.

He obviously considers himself American, first and foremost.



So I guess you just don't know the facts. If you really think Parker, who was born in Belgium and has French citizenship and has French as his first and native language is simply "American" then you just might be a xenophobe.
Where did I say this at all?

I said there is strong American influence to his game and the way he plays. As a person he's clearly French.

As opposed to Kobe who is clearly American.


Yep, xenophobia at its best in this thread.
Where out of any of this do you get xenophobia?

[mrhoopfan]

this is just flat out wrong. Now, I personally think rubio will not be as good as advertised, but to suggest that rondo would/could be a dominant scorer on a team is inaccurate. his major weakness since HS has been his shot. and its not going to improve very much. as long as he has a shaky jumper (and no all star teammates to pass to), the defense can take away his drive and dare him to shoot. He is a great ball handler, passer, excellent rebounder and solid defender, but his weakness always has been his scoring, especially his outside shot.

Parker manages to put points on the board because he's got blinding speed and his ability to change direction on a dime is second to none. He's not a great outside shooter but knocks down the 15-17 footer. Rondo is averaging like 24 this series when he's been called on to score more. and most good point guards, have an all star level team mate to pass to.

[mrhoopfan]

Are you serious? Let me explain it for you. Nick Calathes was CUT from the Greek JUNIOR TEAM. Not the Greek national team. The Greek junior team. He wasn't even good enough to hang on the YOUTH team of Greece. Rubio is YOUNGER than Calathes and made the A Spain senior squad at the Olympics. You can't be serious with comparing these two? This is a joke right?

Yes it was, glad you can understand sarcasm

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Because he lived there for 8 years.

Where as he was born an America and has lived here for 22 years.

He obviously considers himself American, first and foremost.



Where did I say this at all?

I said there is strong American influence to his game and the way he plays. As a person he's clearly French.

As opposed to Kobe who is clearly American.


Where out of any of this do you get xenophobia?

Dasher is an extreme xenophobe. It's very embarrassing to this site to have posts like that on it.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Dasher is an extreme xenophobe. It's very embarrassing to this site to have posts like that on it.
Some people aren't down with this whole New World Order loving agenda, maybe?

Maybe some people still believe in patriotic pride and international soveirgnty. I don't know.

With that said Dasher is a great poster, even if he is a xenophobe.

[Dasher]

Dasher is an extreme xenophobe. It's very embarrassing to this site to have posts like that on it.The Israeli Basketball league is one of the worst in Europe. I am not a Xenophobe, I am merely pointing out Tony's dual-nature.

[mrhoopfan]

:applause: Word to your mother. You just saved me from typing the above paragraph


So, the same could be said for any point guard who averages alot of assists. if Stockton didn't have Malone and Hornacek, if Magic didn't have Kareem, worthy, Byron Scott. Of course you need talented players around you to get assists...You also have to realize that on the flip side, Paul pierce has the ball in his hands alot which takes away from Rondo's opportunity to get more assists, which is why on teams with players like D.Wade, lebron and Kobe, McGrady, Iverson, Jordan,etc. the point guards don't average alot of assists

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Some people aren't down with this whole New World Order loving agenda, maybe?

Maybe some people still believe in patriotic pride and international soveirgnty. I don't know.

With that said Dasher is a great poster, even if he is a xenophobe.

Right being a bigot is patriotism.:no:

[Lakas Fan Yo]

The Israeli Basketball league is one of the worst in Europe. I am not a Xenophobe, I am merely pointing out Tony's dual-nature.

Israeli basketball league? WTF does that have to do with this? Welcome to iggy. What a disgrace.

[Dasher]

Right being a bigot is patriotism.:no:LOL. There is nothing bigoted about my posts. You fail again.

[RaininThrees]

Calderon has an excellent skill set but that hasn't translated to wins. I can't believe that toronto is not more talented than the 76ers. Toronto didn't get it done this year with Calderon as the full time pg.

Calderon was injured and didn't practice at all with the team for 6 weeks.

So there you go.

[tastystaci]

So, the same could be said for any point guard who averages alot of assists. if Stockton didn't have Malone and Hornacek, if Magic didn't have Kareem, worthy, Byron Scott. Of course you need talented players around you to get assists...You also have to realize that on the flip side, Paul pierce has the ball in his hands alot

Agreed, but IMO Rondo wouldn't even be a relevant player in the league if he wasn't in this particular situation. You take any of the above mentioned PG's, even Rubio, and I think they flourish no matter where they are. Not Rondo. And your Parker comparison is reasonable, but like you said, Parker CAN hit the 15-17 foot jumper in the pick-n-roll, Rondo can't. Rondo shoots a Center-like percentage from the free throw line. I don't know any other all-star caliber pg that shoots less than 63% from the free throw line in the history of the league. That's just unheard of. It's an all new level of bad when it comes to outside shooting.

[steve]

It's not too hard to understand Dasher's position here. He's not arguing Parker's actual nationality, what he is arguing is that Parker plays more like an American guard than a guard you traditionally see out of Europe. He further argues that the main reason for this is that his father was a major influence in his development as a basketball player rather than the basketball environment outside of his family. It has nothing to do with nationality and all to do with playing style, which is more American than European.

[Younggrease]

It's not too hard to understand Dasher's position here. He's not arguing Parker's actual nationality, what he is arguing is that Parker plays more like an American guard than a guard you traditionally see out of Europe. He further argues that the main reason for this is that his father was a major influence in his development as a basketball player rather than the basketball environment outside of his family. It has nothing to do with nationality and all to do with playing style, which is more American than European.

when did you people start watching Parker? rookie Tony Parker didnt look like an American player to me

[Samurai Swoosh]

Right being a bigot is patriotism.:no:
Where was he being a bigot? LOL ...

He wasn't putting down any form of culture or anything.

[MMM]

Its not a myth. Rondo fits very well with the Celtics starters. Allen and Pierce are deadly from 3 point land, they stretch the defense. Garnett has a solid jumper too, he stretches defenses. If the Celtics did not start those 3 shooters alongside Rondo, Rondo's shooting % would plummet because he would not be getting nearly as many open layups because defenses could just collapse on him without fear of the 3 point threat on the wing. His assist totals would plummet because he would not be surrounded by good shooters. Rondo would be a horrible fit on a team like Philly, Miami, or Utah... basically anywhere without good 3 point shooters.

Rondo is a fast break player playing on a slow methodical team the fact he has improved so much this year is because he has improved within the Celtics half court system. He is a much better finisher in traffic and his jump shooting has improved steadily over the last few months. Last year he was completely useless in the Celtics half court offense besides hitting a could of baseline 15 footers from time-to-time that is why Eddie House received mins in the final moments of games last year. Go throughout the entire season and it is plainly visible that when Rondo is out of the game/or having a poor game the Celtics turns from one of the more efficient offenses in the league to looking below avg.

[Samurai Swoosh]

when did you people start watching Parker? rookie Tony Parker didnt look like an American player to me
Word uage. Now, re-read

"Plays more like an American guard than a guard you traditionally see out of Europe"

He's not saying he plays as an American guard or just like an American guard.

[Younggrease]

Word uage. Now, re-read

"Plays more like an American guard than a guard you traditionally see out of Europe"

He's not saying he plays as an American guard or just like an American guard.

so he is basically making a broad statement which accounts to meaning nothing?

[steve]

so he is basically making a broad statement which accounts to meaning nothing?
You're a little pissy today aren't you? I was explaining Dasher's argument in basic terms. You'd think the first sentence would've been a rather large signifier, but I guess not.

[mrhoopfan]

Agreed, but IMO Rondo wouldn't even be a relevant player in the league if he wasn't in this particular situation. You take any of the above mentioned PG's, even Rubio, and I think they flourish no matter where they are. Not Rondo. And your Parker comparison is reasonable, but like you said, Parker CAN hit the 15-17 foot jumper in the pick-n-roll, Rondo can't. Rondo shoots a Center-like percentage from the free throw line. I don't know any other all-star caliber pg that shoots less than 63% from the free throw line in the history of the league. That's just unheard of. It's an all new level of bad when it comes to outside shooting.

You have intelligent comments. Rondo's foul shooting does stink but he's starting to make that 15-17 footer pretty consistently. And he keeps getting buckets I guess one of my points is when a coach takes the shackles off of you and you allows you to just go out and not worry so much about running an offense( see Devin Harris) then a truly talented player really produces. Without garnett in the lineup, Rondo has been allowed more to create and push the ball and we're seeing that talent of his on display. my point is not to bash Rubio but to say that if he ends up as good as rondo then even that would be awfully good for HIM.

[Dasher]

Ricky is his sacred cow. He just argued that Ricky's footwork has no bearing on his ability to execute a pull up jumpers.

[Younggrease]

Ricky is his sacred cow. He just argued that Ricky's footwork has no bearing on his ability to execute a pull up jumpers.

There are many factors in shooting a jumpshot...his problem isnt with footwork but the other factors. but again I would expect that from someone who has only seen youtube clips and a few Olympic games.

[mrhoopfan]

Rondo is a fast break player playing on a slow methodical team the fact he has improved so much this year is because he has improved within the Celtics half court system. He is a much better finisher in traffic and his jump shooting has improved steadily over the last few months. Last year he was completely useless in the Celtics half court offense besides hitting a could of baseline 15 footers from time-to-time that is why Eddie House received mins in the final moments of games last year. Go throughout the entire season and it is plainly visible that when Rondo is out of the game/or having a poor game the Celtics turns from one of the more efficient offenses in the league to looking below avg.

Agree, and if he played in a system that was consistently uptempo, he'd be one of the top 7 pgs in the league imo.Boston's system is not the cause of his success.

[Samurai Swoosh]

There are many factors in shooting a jumpshot...his problem isnt with footwork but the other factors. but again I would expect that from someone who has only seen youtube clips and a few Olympic games.
PULL UP jumpers is all about footwork.

Pull up. Meaning going forward with alot of momentum, stopping on a dime, collecting footwork quickly to rise up and shoot.

[Dasher]

There are many factors in shooting a jumpshot...his problem isnt with footwork but the other factors. but again I would expect that from someone who has only seen youtube clips and a few Olympic games.Balance is the foundation of any jump shot, and his footwork is a detriment to getting the proper balance needed on his shot. All other elements of a quality jumper come from the base of the shot.

[mrhoopfan]

Balance is the foundation of any jump shot, and his footwork is a detriment to getting the proper balance needed on his shot. All other elements of a quality jumper come from the base of the shot.


Good point! This is something Ty Lawson, in particular due to being small, HAS to work on to be an effective NBA player

[Younggrease]

Balance is the foundation of any jump shot, and his footwork is a detriment to getting the proper balance needed on his shot. All other elements of a quality jumper come from the base of the shot.

he is shooting a set set shot not a jumper. His problems stem from the fact that he is not taking jumpshots. He has just recently started switching to a jumpshot and is in the inbetween stages.

[tastystaci]

Agree, and if he played in a system that was consistently uptempo, he'd be one of the top 7 pgs in the league imo.Boston's system is not the cause of his success.

Like Parker, the fact that his team isn't an "uptempo" team, doesn't stop them from running on the break every chance they get. Both guys have no problem taking the ball 1-on-3 or 1-on-2, because they can get to the tin and usually get fouls called just for throwing themselves around. I don't think playing on an "uptempo" team would help Rondo at all. It's the Celtic's ability to spread the court in the half court that allows him to put up the inflated offensive numbers he currently puts up, especially FG% wise.

[Dasher]

He has been in the inbetween stages of his shot for the past 2-3 years. Every year it is the same thing with his shot. As soon as he turns 19 a lot of his mystique will begin to disappear.

[BigTicket]

What I don't get is why people go out of their way to criticize Rubio, but noone seems to mind that Brandon Jennings is ranked about the same, even though he sucks off the bench in a weaker league than the one where Rubio dominates in the starting lineup.

[Younggrease]

He has been in the inbetween stages of his shot for the past 2-3 years. Every year it is the same thing with his shot. As soon as he turns 19 a lot of his mystique will begin to disappear.

really you must watch a lot of European basketball? I mean I was under the impression he hired a shooting coach last summer and spent time with one here in LA too...But if you say he has been changing it since 15 then so be it.

[tastystaci]

What I don't get is why people go out of their way to criticize Rubio, but noone seems to mind that Brandon Jennings is ranked about the same, even though he sucks off the bench in a weaker league than the one where Rubio dominates in the starting lineup.

I'll tell you why. It's because he's white. It's really that simple.

[mrhoopfan]

Like Parker, the fact that his team isn't an "uptempo" team, doesn't stop them from running on the break every chance they get. Both guys have no problem taking the ball 1-on-3 or 1-on-2, because they can get to the tin and usually get fouls called just for throwing themselves around. I don't think playing on an "uptempo" team would help Rondo at all. It's the Celtic's ability to spread the court in the half court that allows him to put up the inflated offensive numbers he currently puts up, especially FG% wise.


In this case, Rafer alston should be shooting an incredibly high % because probably no NBA team spreads you out more than the Magic. and in these first two games, the defense has dared Big Baby to shoot from outside, clogging the middle against Rondo. Look at some of the shots he makes. Give the guy credit, he has a knack for getting his shot off in the paint.

[tastystaci]

In this case, Rafer alston should be shooting an incredibly high % because probably no NBA team spreads you out more than the Magic. and in these first two games, the defense has dared Big Baby to shoot from outside, clogging the middle against Rondo. Look at some of the shots he makes. Give the guy credit, he has a knack for getting his shot off in the paint.

The Magic spread it "around" a dominate low post player in Howard. So the defense sags, creating outside opportunities. The Celtics are the opposite, which is why Rondo is successful. They create space with their ability to shoot the three ball, so Rondo has open lanes to get to the rim, thus the worst shooting pg in the history of the game shooting over 50% from the field this year.

[MMM]

The Magic spread it "around" a dominate low post player in Howard. So the defense sags, creating outside opportunities. The Celtics are the opposite, which is why Rondo is successful. They create space with their ability to shoot the three ball, so Rondo has open lanes to get to the rim, thus the worst shooting pg in the history of the game shooting over 50% from the field this year.

Rondo doesn't really get open lanes to the rim. Shouldn't it be clear by the amount of completely wide open jumpers Ray, Kg, Pierce, big baby, house/ uncontested lay ups Perk and Powe get who is actually creating for who. There is a reason why the Celtics offense looks completely out of sync when he is not on the court. The reason why he is shooting over 50% of the field is because he is a better finisher last year he was struggling to finish going one-on-one on the break this year that is not the case, his jump shooting and FT % are ticking upwards and he has good shot selection.

[Champion]

I'm playing devil's advocate for sure but when you say better shooter what do you mean. Because Rondo makes 51% of his shots

Either he is laying it up or left all alone for a jump shot. Imagine if they contest his jumpshots, that's trouble for Rondo.

[MMM]

Either he is laying it up or left all alone for a jump shot. Imagine if they contest his jumpshots, that's trouble for Rondo.

the reason why he doesn't get contested on his jumpers is because the defender fears his speed. If Rondo's Jumper got to the level that it needed to be contested he will become one deadly player.

[tastystaci]

Rondo doesn't really get open lanes to the rim. Shouldn't it be clear by the amount of completely wide open jumpers Ray, Kg, Pierce, big baby, house/ uncontested lay ups Perk and Powe get who is actually creating for who.

Erroneous. And guys do benefit from his penetration, which is why I said he was the perfect fit for THIS team. The great shooters boost his assists, create space for him, thus hiding his obvious shooting deficiency.


his jump shooting and FT % are ticking upwards and he has good shot selection.
Erroneous again. His career high from the free throw line was his rookie season when he shot .647% from the free throw line. So technically he's ticking downwards.

[fefe]

Hey Dasher,
could you explain what is so "american" about Parkers playing style?

he has a low stance, and no flashy dribbling... not even his crossover is american...

If you watch his basics, he is totally euro...
being fast doesn't make your style "american"...

[Jinxed]

Rubio's jumper has vastly improved this year, despite wearing a cast on his shooting wrist.

As for Tony Parker...let's think about his game. What is he known for?

Floaters and his speed. His speed is natural, has nothing to do with nationality.

His floaters..that's completely European. Think about who else has the other great floaters in basketball..Ginobili and Navarro. Both of whom learned their game in a European style.

[mrhoopfan]

This guy was supposed to be the chosen one too


Kukoč played for Jugoplastika Split and won the Euroleague with the team three years in a row. Afterwards he played for Benetton Treviso, winning the title of Player of the Year three times. He has won the Italian Championship in 1992 and Italian Cup in 1993, and played in the European Champions' Cup final in 1993. He has been nicknamed "the white Magic", "the spider from Split", "the Pink Panther", "the waiter","the European Jordan", and was known as "the Croatian Sensation" when he played in the NBA. He was also on teams that won the FIBA World Junior Championship (1987 for Yugoslavia), two Olympic silver medals (1988 for Yugoslavia and 1992 for Croatia), and the FIBA World Championship (1990 for Yugoslavia), in which he was selected the tournament MVP.[1]

So great was Kukoc's fame, even before playing in the NBA, Kukoc was earning $13 million over five years for a contract with the Italian clothier Benetton.

[MMM]

Erroneous. And guys do benefit from his penetration, which is why I said he was the perfect fit for THIS team. The great shooters boost his assists, create space for him, thus hiding his obvious shooting deficiency.


Erroneous again. His career high from the free throw line was his rookie season when he shot .647% from the free throw line. So technically he's ticking downwards.

He is shooting 67% from the ft line post ASG so it is not far fetch to say he has improved his overall shooting has gotten better. Rondo in the half court offense rarely is presented with open lanes as you say Rondo benefits when the Celtics are playing uptempo and he is able to find Pierce, Ray, House for the transition three.

[chains5000]

This guy was supposed to be the chosen one too


Kukoč played for Jugoplastika Split and won the Euroleague with the team three years in a row. Afterwards he played for Benetton Treviso, winning the title of Player of the Year three times. He has won the Italian Championship in 1992 and Italian Cup in 1993, and played in the European Champions' Cup final in 1993. He has been nicknamed "the white Magic", "the spider from Split", "the Pink Panther", "the waiter","the European Jordan", and was known as "the Croatian Sensation" when he played in the NBA. He was also on teams that won the FIBA World Junior Championship (1987 for Yugoslavia), two Olympic silver medals (1988 for Yugoslavia and 1992 for Croatia), and the FIBA World Championship (1990 for Yugoslavia), in which he was selected the tournament MVP.[1]

So great was Kukoc's fame, even before playing in the NBA, Kukoc was earning $13 million over five years for a contract with the Italian clothier Benetton.
Kukoc > Rondo

[chains5000]

He is shooting 67% from the ft line post ASG so it is not far fetch to say he has improved his overall shooting has gotten better. Rondo in the half court offense rarely is presented with open lanes as you say Rondo benefits when the Celtics are playing uptempo and he is able to find Pierce, Ray, House for the transition three.
:bowdown:
GOAT numbers

[MMM]

:bowdown:
GOAT numbers

that isn't my point but if people want to blindly hate on Rondo go ahead.

[Jinxed]

C'mon now...Toni Kukoc was pretty freaking good in the NBA...

He led the Bull in pts, rbs , assts in the 98-99 season. Going 19 pts 7 Rbs and 5 assts.

Averaged 20/6/6 on Atlanta in 2001.

[chains5000]

that isn't my point but if people want to blindly hate on Rondo go ahead.
He's a good player, I agree, but

It's not fair to compare him to a yet to be rookie.
If they're gonna be compared, then potential (I hate this word) should be taken into account, and Rubio's potential >>> Rondo's.

[Younggrease]

C'mon now...Toni Kukoc was pretty freaking good in the NBA...

He led the Bull in pts, rbs , assts in the 98-99 season. Going 19 pts 7 Rbs and 5 assts.

Averaged 20/6/6 on Atlanta in 2001.

If Kukoc played on another team without the GOAT and another top 5 sf of all time he would have been on a good deal of all star teams

[fefe]

edited,

[mrhoopfan]

C'mon now...Toni Kukoc was pretty freaking good in the NBA...

He led the Bull in pts, rbs , assts in the 98-99 season. Going 19 pts 7 Rbs and 5 assts.

Averaged 20/6/6 on Atlanta in 2001.


My point exactly, not close to a hall of famer, not a perennial all star either. Definitely a SOLID player( Kendall gill and Dee Brown have similar career numbers)But the hype back then was UNBELIEVABLE when this guy was a youngster. Similar to how it is for Rubio. And yes, he did some amazing things overseas but he surely did not become the next larry bird here in the states!!

[mrhoopfan]

If Kukoc played on another team without the GOAT and another top 5 sf of all time he would have been on a good deal of all star teams

That's funny, he'd have to get healthy first

[Lakas Fan Yo]

I'll tell you why. It's because he's white. It's really that simple.

BINGO

[Lakas Fan Yo]

My point exactly, not close to a hall of famer, not a perennial all star either. Definitely a SOLID player( Kendall gill and Dee Brown have similar career numbers)But the hype back then was UNBELIEVABLE when this guy was a youngster. Similar to how it is for Rubio. And yes, he did some amazing things overseas but he surely did not become the next larry bird here in the states!!

I hate to break it to you, but Kukoc should never be mentioned in best players that were in Europe.............

Nick Galis
Drazen Petrovic
Arvydas Sabonis

come on, at least make a better example for this argument.

[Younggrease]

BINGO

exactly...

[chains5000]

My point exactly, not close to a hall of famer, not a perennial all star either. Definitely a SOLID player( Kendall gill and Dee Brown have similar career numbers)But the hype back then was UNBELIEVABLE when this guy was a youngster. Similar to how it is for Rubio. And yes, he did some amazing things overseas but he surely did not become the next larry bird here in the states!!
He still was better than Rondo, so if Ricky only gets to be as good as Kukoc, he'd be better than Rondo too.

[mrhoopfan]

I hate to break it to you, but Kukoc should never be mentioned in best players that were in Europe.............

Nick Galis
Drazen Petrovic
Arvydas Sabonis

come on, at least make a better example for this argument.

I made a perfect example for this argument duh, none of those 3 players you mentioned were HYPED like Kukoc was. Rubio has a very similar HYPE to what was going on with Kukoc years ago. Kukoc was supposed to be a combo of Magic-Bird, Rubio is supposed to be combo of Nash, Maravich and Stockton.......wow!!! so don't break it to me but break it to the hype machine that told us Kukoc was gonna be the next big thing.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

I made a perfect example for this argument duh, none of those 3 players you mentioned were HYPED like Kukoc was. Rubio has a very similar HYPE to what was going on with Kukoc years ago. Kukoc was supposed to be a combo of Magic-Bird, Rubio is supposed to be combo of Nash, Maravich and Stockton.......wow!!! so don't break it to me but break it to the hype machine that told us Kukoc was gonna be the next big thing.

Kukoc made 11/11 3 point shots against one of the Dream teams if I remember right. THAT is where the hype machine came from. If you are so mad about it you need to blame the morons at ESPN who are responsible for this.

Sure, I am sick of hearing about Rubio already, but no more than I was sick of hearing about LeBron before he was drafted.

[Younggrease]

I made a perfect example for this argument duh, none of those 3 players you mentioned were HYPED like Kukoc was. Rubio has a very similar HYPE to what was going on with Kukoc years ago. Kukoc was supposed to be a combo of Magic-Bird, Rubio is supposed to be combo of Nash, Maravich and Stockton.......wow!!! so don't break it to me but break it to the hype machine that told us Kukoc was gonna be the next big thing.

the hype machine also told me that bummy Greg Oden was gonna be the next Shaq... we see how that turned out

[joe]

Originally Posted by tastystaci
I'll tell you why. It's because he's white. It's really that simple.


BINGO


There's only one hole in this argument. I'll let you figure out what it is.

[chains5000]

the hype machine also told me that bummy Greg Oden was gonna be the next Shaq... we see how that turned out
weren't you Rubio's biggest fan not that long ago?:confusedshrug:

[tastystaci]

There's only one hole in this argument. I'll let you figure out what it is.

Please, enlighten me o' wise one.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

the hype machine also told me that bummy Greg Oden was gonna be the next Shaq... we see how that turned out

Exactly, there seems to be an insistence here that ONLY Euro players get hyped and only Euro players bust. For every Darko there is a Kwame, etc. I understand if you think he might be a flop or whatever based on that it could happen, but the reason being simply because he is white, European and being hyped is stupid.

To mrhoopsfan:

If you want to see a REAL hype machine look at Saras Jasikevicius or Rudy Fernandez. Now THAT is hype. Spain and US media went crazy on these guys and they were never that good. I almost spit my drink all over the TV when I heard an American announcer refer to Rudy as "the best non-NBA player in the world". Now THAT is hype.

Saying things that are blatantly false and untrue are hype. However, to be fair to Rubio he IS one of the best players EVER at his age.

As for calling him Maravich or Stockton WTF do people expect? The average IQ of an ESPN writer or "analyst" is about 85. They are drooling retards. He's not even really that type of player that much. You want a comparison?

PANAGIOTIS GIANNAKIS ----> that is who he reminds me of, but you see this is part of the problem. Americans are so incredibly xenophobic, ethnocentric, and arrogant when it comes to basketball and their belief that ONLY they own it, can play it, or know it, that no American knows or has ever heard of the guy that Rubio is like. So even if someone tried to make a good comparison Americans would all roll their eyes and make stupid jokes, "oh the next scrubaropoulos Euro trash, great" and stupid nonsense like that.

Let me give you some info here. I watched several Rockets games where announcers said, "Luis Scola was the 3 time Euroleague MVP". Well if you are basing the Euroleague on that then good luck to you and anyone else. Because he NEVER was the MVP of the Euroleague.

That Nike Hoops Summit game they said Macvan was the Euroleague Rising Star, yet another falsehood and error. Or how about Blazers games mentioning Rudy was the MVP of the Euroleague last year? I heard that more than once. Also false and untrue.

A big part of all of this is that US media is pure BS and full of it. They exaggerate ANY Euro player that is in the NBA as far as what he did in Europe. Why? Because the NBA pays them to do that. To skew things and make the NBA seem more better than it really is. The best ones of all are the "Trajan Langdon dominates the Euroleague" and "Sarunas Jasikevicius was the greatest Euroleague player that ever lived." You will see those two and hear them on almost a weekly basis and ANY time a Euroleague-NBA topic comes up Americans state crap like that.

That's like saying that Boobie Gibson dominates the NBA or that Calderon is the greatest NBA baller ever. It literally IS exactly like saying that, yet Americans never shut up and say it over and over. If you want to know about LUDICROUS HYPE that is just that.

[tastystaci]

Exactly, there seems to be an insistence here that ONLY Euro players get hyped and only Euro players bust. For every Darko there is a Kwame, etc. I understand if you think he might be a flop or whatever based on that it could happen, but the reason being simply because he is white, European and being hyped is stupid.

To mrhoopsfan:

If you want to see a REAL hype machine look at Saras Jasikevicius or Rudy Fernandez. Now THAT is hype. Spain and US media went crazy on these guys and they were never that good. I almost spit my drink all over the TV when I heard an American announcer refer to Rudy as "the best non-NBA player in the world". Now THAT is hype.

Saying things that are blatantly false and untrue are hype. However, to be fair to Rubio he IS one of the best players EVER at his age.

As for calling him Maravich or Stockton WTF do people expect? The average IQ of an ESPN writer or "analyst" is about 85. They are drooling retards. He's not even really that type of player that much. You want a comparison?

PANAGIOTIS GIANNAKIS ----> that is who he reminds me of, but you see this is part of the problem. Americans are so incredibly xenophobic, ethnocentric, and arrogant when it comes to basketball and their belief that ONLY they own it, can play it, or know it, that no American knows or has ever heard of the guy that Rubio is like. So even if someone tried to make a good comparison Americans would all roll their eyes and make stupid jokes, "oh the next scrubaropoulos Euro trash, great" and stupid nonsense like that.

Let me give you some info here. I watched several Rockets games where announcers said, "Luis Scola was the 3 time Euroleague MVP". Well if you are basing the Euroleague on that then good luck to you and anyone else. Because he NEVER was the MVP of the Euroleague.

That Nike Hoops Summit game they said Macvan was the Euroleague Rising Star, yet another falsehood and error. Or how about Blazers games mentioning Rudy was the MVP of the Euroleague last year? I heard that more than once. Also false and untrue.

A big part of all of this is that US media is pure BS and full of it. They exaggerate ANY Euro player that is in the NBA as far as what he did in Europe. Why? Because the NBA pays them to do that. To skew things and make the NBA seem more better than it really is. The best ones of all are the "Trajan Langdon dominates the Euroleague" and "Sarunas Jasikevicius was the greatest Euroleague player that ever lived." You will see those two and hear them on almost a weekly basis and ANY time a Euroleague-NBA topic comes up Americans state crap like that.

That's like saying that Bobbie Gibson dominates the NBA or that Calderon is the greatest NBA baller ever. It literally IS exactly like saying that, yet Americans never shut up and say it over and over. If you want to know about LUDICROUS HYPE that is just that.

Longwinded, but good post. I do believe this American's have an ego about the game, and until these last Olympics it simply held no weight.

[Grinder]

Exactly, there seems to be an insistence here that ONLY Euro players get hyped and only Euro players bust. For every Darko there is a Kwame, etc. I understand if you think he might be a flop or whatever based on that it could happen, but the reason being simply because he is white, European and being hyped is stupid.

To mrhoopsfan:

If you want to see a REAL hype machine look at Saras Jasikevicius or Rudy Fernandez. Now THAT is hype. Spain and US media went crazy on these guys and they were never that good. I almost spit my drink all over the TV when I heard an American announcer refer to Rudy as "the best non-NBA player in the world". Now THAT is hype.

Saying things that are blatantly false and untrue are hype. However, to be fair to Rubio he IS one of the best players EVER at his age.

As for calling him Maravich or Stockton WTF do people expect? The average IQ of an ESPN writer or "analyst" is about 85. They are drooling retards. He's not even really that type of player that much. You want a comparison?

PANAGIOTIS GIANNAKIS ----> that is who he reminds me of, but you see this is part of the problem. Americans are so incredibly xenophobic, ethnocentric, and arrogant when it comes to basketball and their belief that ONLY they own it, can play it, or know it, that no American knows or has ever heard of the guy that Rubio is like. So even if someone tried to make a good comparison Americans would all roll their eyes and make stupid jokes, "oh the next scrubaropoulos Euro trash, great" and stupid nonsense like that.

Let me give you some info here. I watched several Rockets games where announcers said, "Luis Scola was the 3 time Euroleague MVP". Well if you are basing the Euroleague on that then good luck to you and anyone else. Because he NEVER was the MVP of the Euroleague.

That Nike Hoops Summit game they said Macvan was the Euroleague Rising Star, yet another falsehood and error. Or how about Blazers games mentioning Rudy was the MVP of the Euroleague last year? I heard that more than once. Also false and untrue.

A big part of all of this is that US media is pure BS and full of it. They exaggerate ANY Euro player that is in the NBA as far as what he did in Europe. Why? Because the NBA pays them to do that. To skew things and make the NBA seem more better than it really is. The best ones of all are the "Trajan Langdon dominates the Euroleague" and "Sarunas Jasikevicius was the greatest Euroleague player that ever lived." You will see those two and hear them on almost a weekly basis and ANY time a Euroleague-NBA topic comes up Americans state crap like that.

That's like saying that Boobie Gibson dominates the NBA or that Calderon is the greatest NBA baller ever. It literally IS exactly like saying that, yet Americans never shut up and say it over and over. If you want to know about LUDICROUS HYPE that is just that.

Rudy was one of the top 5 non-NBA players in the world before he entered the NBA. Name five players better than him at the time.

Untrue, quite a few people have heard of Giannakis, especially recently with him coaching the Greek NT.

I've never seen the Rockets announcer say that Scola was a 3 time Euroleague MVP, they say Spanish league, which he was multiple times.

I doubt they would say Rudy was the MVP of the Euroleague considering DKV Joventut didn't even play in the Euroleague last year.

Who says Trajon Langdon dominates in Europe?

[InspiredLebowski]

I want to know how people determine arbitrary crap like "ceilings" of a player.

Also, I hate the Rubio and Maravich comparison. The only similarity is their appearance.

[Younggrease]

I want to know how people determine arbitrary crap like "ceilings" of a player.

Also, I hate the Rubio and Maravich comparison. The only similarity is their appearance.

:applause: so true...

[Dasher]

It is not a positive thing to be compared to Pistol Pete anyway.

[boozehound]

It is not a positive thing to be compared to Pistol Pete anyway.
certainly not in this forum! and probably in general. hes the archie manning on basketball

[InspiredLebowski]

It is not a positive thing to be compared to Pistol Pete anyway.

In the ISH sense or the basketball sense? Not that it matters, I agree either way.

[Dasher]

In the ISH sense or the basketball sense? Not that it matters, I agree either way.I was under the impression that ISH loved Pistol Pete, and always made excuses for his impressive individual numbers not leading to any victories.

[InspiredLebowski]

I was under the impression that ISH loved Pistol Pete, and always made excuses for his impressive individual numbers not leading to any victories.
I meant the poster v. the player.

And Kornheiser just said he doesn't know much about Rubio but he sounds like he should've been in Glengarry Glenn Ross lol.

[Dasher]

I meant the poster v. the player.Yeah he is an idiot, but I think he is just a gimmick, but then again most of the conservatives on the board come off as gimmicks. Other than Nexus, the best conservative on the board at articulating conservative viewpoints was a gimmick; the great Looten P.

[Jinxed]

I want to know how people determine arbitrary crap like "ceilings" of a player.

Also, I hate the Rubio and Maravich comparison. The only similarity is their appearance.


Nah, their both exciting passers and dribblers..and have a similar flair for the game.

[Hammertime]

The problem with comparisons is that they are almost always race-based. That's why you never hear anyone compare Durant to Chris Mullin or Rubio to Fat Lever.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Rudy was one of the top 5 non-NBA players in the world before he entered the NBA. Name five players better than him at the time.

Untrue, quite a few people have heard of Giannakis, especially recently with him coaching the Greek NT.

I've never seen the Rockets announcer say that Scola was a 3 time Euroleague MVP, they say Spanish league, which he was multiple times.

I doubt they would say Rudy was the MVP of the Euroleague considering DKV Joventut didn't even play in the Euroleague last year.

Who says Trajon Langdon dominates in Europe?

Rudy Fernandez was never even close to being a top 5 player in Europe, let alone the whole world outside the NBA. Give me a break.

[AlThornton]

Rubio is an amazing passer, and an amazing defender. Plus he knows how to run a team. His ceiling is the best PG in the NBA.

[Grinder]

Rudy Fernandez was never even close to being a top 5 player in Europe, let alone the whole world outside the NBA. Give me a break.

If it's so clear cut, name 5 players outside the NBA better than him.

[Jinxed]

Rudy wasn't close to being a top 5 player outside of the US? please...

Here was the all euroleague starting 5 last year..

Ramunis Siskauskis ...Euroleague MVP

Tiago Splitter

Terence Morris

Trajan Langdon

Terrel McIntyre

...Tell me which of those players is better than Rudy?

Tiago Splitter also plays in the ACB, and wasn't as good as Rudy in 2008..Rudy finishes second in the MVP voting, Marc Gasol was 1st and Rubio 3rd.

[joe]

Why does everyone keep saying Ricky is white? He's Spanish. "White" is another word for caucasian Americans, or in a broader sense for caucasians in general. Rubio is neither.

[Hammertime]

Rubio is most definitely not an ethnic Spaniard. He's a Spanish citizen, but that's a whole other beast. Rubio is Catalan.

[Jinxed]

Why does everyone keep saying Ricky is white? He's Spanish. "White" is another word for caucasian Americans, or in a broader sense for caucasians in general. Rubio is neither.

Didn't we just have this argument on another thread? Please don't confuse Spaniard, with what ignorant Americans call 'spanish'..when they really mean latino.

here is a map of caucasian countries..in blue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meyers_1890_ethnographic_detail.jpg


As you can see, Spain is most definetely included.

Spaniards were the 'evil white man' as referred to by the native Americans when they raped and pillaged during there conquering of the Americas.

[Jinxed]

Rubio is most definitely not an ethnic Spaniard. He's a Spanish citizen, but that's a whole other beast. Rubio is Catalan.

And since when is Catalan not ethnic Spaniard? what exactly is an ethnic spaniard in your definition?

[Hammertime]

And since when is Catalan not ethnic Spaniard? what exactly is an ethnic spaniard in your definition?

Well, an ethnic Spaniard would be someone whose mother tongue is Spanish, for one thing. Rubio's is obviously not. Or, to make this visually effective, you're ethnically Spanish if you're from the part of Spain coloured red on this map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/f/f4/20060814150823!Spain_languages.PNG

And before you start responding, please consult this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_people

[Jinxed]

My dad was born in Spain, I could have my Spanish citizenship right now if I just got off my lazy ass an filled out the paperwork. I've been to Spain over a dozen times. Including catalan, so I think I'm somewhat qualified to answer this..


Well, an ethnic Spaniard would be someone whose mother tongue is Spanish, for one thing.

Ahh yes, whatever your native language is, that is what you are ethnic-wise. I always knew Lebron James was actually an anglo-saxon englishman.

Languages have nothing to do with ethnicity.

Secondly , we don't really know much about Rubio's ancestors and whether they always lived in Catalan (for how long?) or moved from other parts of Spain or the world for that matter.

[Hammertime]

You know sh*t all, apparently, since the nation is called Catalunya or Catalonia.

LeBron James is an African-American. His skin colour and his mother tongue make him that. Hence he belongs to the same ethnic group as Dwight Howard and Dwyane Wade. If he couldn't speak English, or wasn't black, he obviously wouldn't.

Rubio has a Catalan first name and one of his two last names(Vives) is unmistakably Catalan. Making me assume that he's...well...Catalan.

Here's an article that mentions that Catalan is indeed his mother tongue and not Spanish: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/111364-pgu-point-guard-university-ricky-rubio

[gibbo3000]

The racial profiling in this thread is hilarious

The assumption that Rubio = Nash, Calderon etc is laughable
They can't play defense at all, rubio hounds his opposnents.

I'm not saying he's as good now, but if I were to compare Rubio STYLE of play to any NBA legend it would be Gary Payton, but wihtout the personality.

In terms of Rondo, there is a big difference between a Rondo and a star. Consistency.
Rondo can occasionally put up star numbers, even superstar numbers.

BUT, a star puts up those numbers every night.

I would say that 75% of the players in the NBA have the ability, if given the minutes and the ball/plays, to put up the occasional star performance. Look at Gibson in his last game, look at Brandon Rush (useless all season, then give him the ball and he's as good as Granger every second game), Eddie House, Ramon Sessions, Big Baby etc.

When Rondo can average 18, 6, 10, 3 stls that wil be something different
but he only averages 12, 5, 8, 2 because he is terrible in at least 1/3 of his games and Pierce, Allen and Garnett bail him out.

[Jinxed]

Of course he speaks Catalan, he's from Barcelona. Everyone there speaks Catalan, just about everyone speaks Castillano too. I'm sure Ricky grew up speaking both.

You see ethnicity is just way of classifying different people. There are many ways to do this, and everyone could be classified as having many ethnicities.
Most people in Catalonia would consider themselves both Catalan and Spanish, because the country they live in is Spain and the region of Spain they live in is Catalonia. It's kind of like being both Scottish and British. Or being born in Montreal yet still being Canadian. And if you are Scottish or British, or Canadian or French Canadian, Castillano or Catalan you could still be classified as white.

So let me ask you this..what if Lebron had grown up in area of Miami or LA where Spanish was the predominant language. Would he still be an African-American? I can guarantee you there are people in the US who are from African descent, live in America and their primary language is not English.

Language is just one way to classify ethnicity, but certainly isn't the only way or the defining way. A good example of this would be Jewish people. My great grandmother was a Russian Jew, but she couldn't speak a word of Hebrew. Are you only Jewish if you speak Hebrew?

The truth is ethnicity and even race aren't real. There just man made concepts that we make up in order to fit people into tiny boxes that don't have much bearing to reality.

[Hammertime]

Stop arguing stupid semantics. Rubio is Catalan. According to the SLAM article about him from a few years back, his family speak Catalan at home.

[QUOTE]
A few hours later, I was walking into the Rubio family

[Jinxed]

I'm saying he is both. Just like a person from Scotland is also British, a person from Catalonia is also Spanish.

From wiki

Within the broader Spanish identity are long standing regional identities within Spain

Andalusian people
Aragonese people
Asturian people
Balearic people
Canarian people
Cantabrian people
Castilian people
Catalan people
Extremaduran people
Galician people
Leonese people
Murcian people
Navarrese people
Valencian people

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Why does everyone keep saying Ricky is white? He's Spanish. "White" is another word for caucasian Americans, or in a broader sense for caucasians in general. Rubio is neither.

Please stop being ignorant.

[Narf]

Now, you either admit that he's Catalan or produce some tangible evidence he's Spanish.
What the hell are you talking about? In which world Catalu

[Jinxed]

From wiki

"However, it should be noted that for the majority of Catalans, a sense of Catalan identity is not viewed as being mutually exclusive with the Spanish one; a large majority of people feel both Catalan and Spanish. Comparable examples exist in other large European states with strong regional identities, such as Bavaria within Germany and Sicily within Italy.

[Hammertime]

[QUOTE=Narf]What the hell are you talking about? In which world Catalu

[CatchAndShoot]

What does that have to do with anything? Quebec is part of Canada and yet they're a nation too.

Nationality and ethnicity are two very different things. Anyone with Spanish citizenship is Spanish, even Wally Szczerbiak. He's not Spanish in ethnic sense. Catalans are Catalan, most of them just happen to live in Spain. Are those who live in southern France around Roussilon Spanish too?

In any case, I don't know why I'm arguing this. Here we go, three years ago, Catalunya becomes a nation. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5091572.stm
Last time I checked, neither Galicia, Andalucia, Aragon or any other part of the country are a nation. Just Catalunya.


Quebec is a province..just like Ontario and BC.

[Hammertime]

Quebec is a province..just like Ontario and BC.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/27/nation-vote.html

Fail.

Next.

[Narf]

Last time I checked, neither Galicia, Andalucia, Aragon or any other part of the country are a nation. Just Catalunya.
Huh? There are four "historical nationalities" inside Spain: Galicia, Basque Country, Catalu

[Lakas Fan Yo]

BTW as for this name 5 players better in the world than Rudy non-NBA, well I can just use guys playing last year in Europe alone and do it.

Theo Papaloukas
Terrell McIntyre
Dimitris Diamantidis
Tiago Splitter
Vassilis Spanoulis
Ramunas Siskuaskas
Mike Batiste
Nikola Pekovic
Pablo Prigioni
Arvydas Macijauskas
Igor Rakocevic
Lynn Greer
Nikola Vujcic
David Andersen
Jaka Lakovic
Matjaz Smodis
Ksystof Lavrinovic
Ioannis Bourousis
Panagiotis Vasilopoulos
Erazem Lorbek
Antonis Fotsis
Viktor Khryapa
JR Holden
Andreas Glyniadakis
Felipe Reyes
Fran Vazquez
Ersan Ilyasova
Marc Gasol



debatable but in the same general class and certainly at least comparable

Brad Newley
Zoran Planinic
Nikos Zisis
Rimas Kaukenas
Georgios Printezis
Sani Becirovic
Yotam Halperin
Drew Nicholas
Ioannis Kalampokis
Novica Velickovic
Mirza Teletovic
Pete Mickeal
Sergi Vidal
Dimitrios Tsaldaris
Carl English
Chuck Eidson
Lior Eliyahu


It's freaking ridiculous to call Fernandez the best player on Earth that wasn't in the NBA.

[gxL]

rubio > jose

[Ken_Masters]

Its not a myth. Rondo fits very well with the Celtics starters. Allen and Pierce are deadly from 3 point land, they stretch the defense. Garnett has a solid jumper too, he stretches defenses. If the Celtics did not start those 3 shooters alongside Rondo, Rondo's shooting % would plummet because he would not be getting nearly as many open layups because defenses could just collapse on him without fear of the 3 point threat on the wing. His assist totals would plummet because he would not be surrounded by good shooters. Rondo would be a horrible fit on a team like Philly, Miami, or Utah... basically anywhere without good 3 point shooters.

Rasul Butler, Peja Stojakovic, and David West stretches the defense for the Hornets. Okur, Boozer, and Korver stretches the defense for the Jazz. During the D'Antoni era, Steve Nash had a plethora of deadly 3 point shooters around him, and he won multiple MVP's. Now what does he have? Is it a coincidence that his production fell off once all the shooters left? Every good point guard needs players around them who can shoot and finish. So i find it to be insane when people continue to try and discredit Rondo because of the players around him. Rondo is a good enough player to thrive in any system in this league.

[Ken_Masters]

and most good point guards, have an all star level team mate to pass to.

Exactly. Some people can't get this through their heads.

[Ken_Masters]

Rubio is an amazing passer, and an amazing defender. Plus he knows how to run a team. His ceiling is the best PG in the NBA.

God help us. Aren't there already a few point guards in the league who do this? Why would that make Rubio the best PG in the NBA?:ohwell:

[GoldMedallist]

What does that have to do with anything? Quebec is part of Canada and yet they're a nation too.

Nationality and ethnicity are two very different things. Anyone with Spanish citizenship is Spanish, even Wally Szczerbiak. He's not Spanish in ethnic sense. Catalans are Catalan, most of them just happen to live in Spain. Are those who live in southern France around Roussilon Spanish too?

In any case, I don't know why I'm arguing this. Here we go, three years ago, Catalunya becomes a nation. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5091572.stm
Last time I checked, neither Galicia, Andalucia, Aragon or any other part of the country are a nation. Just Catalunya.

Please don't speak if you don't know what you are talking about. Catalu

[LJJ]

[quote=GoldMedallist]Please don't speak if you don't know what you are talking about. Catalu

[chains5000]

Well, ask a Catalan whether he is Catalan or Spanish. :lol
That doesn't make Catalu

[CatchAndShoot]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/27/nation-vote.html

Fail.

Next.




:wtf: So Quebec isn't a province anymore?:eek:


So Quebec isn't the same as Ontario and BC?

[chains5000]

Why does everyone keep saying Ricky is white? He's Spanish. "White" is another word for caucasian Americans, or in a broader sense for caucasians in general. Rubio is neither.
Spanish aren't white? There's something wrong with my mirror then.

[LJJ]

[quote=chains5000]That doesn't make Catalu

[chains5000]

Don't they have their own internet domain? It's more than just a provence.
So what? It's not like they're trying to be independent from Spain like they've tried to here (Basque Country).
There's some culture differences between the common Spanish and people from Catalu

[GoldMedallist]

Well, ask a Catalan whether he is Catalan or Spanish. :lol

I don't care what a Catalan says about it. Catalunya isn't a nation, it's a part of Spain and every catalan people has a DNI saying they are Spain's citizens. That's the truth, it doesn't mind if any Catalan likes it or not.

[chains5000]

I don't care what a Catalan says about it. Catalunya isn't a nation, it's a part of Spain and every catalan people has a DNI saying they are Spain's citizens. That's the truth, it doesn't mind if any Catalan likes it or not.
:oldlol: I expected some response like this.
Where in Spain are you from?

[Blue&Orange]

Nationality and ethnicity are two very different things.

Nation is ethnicity.

"Though "nation" is also commonly used in informal discourse as a synonym for state or country, a nation is not identical to a state"

So in the real meaning of the word, yes Catalunha (that how i call it :)) is a Nation, but it's not a Nation as in "Country", and it's nowhere near being one and the people there are spanish citizens.

It's a province nothing more, as is Quebec, anyone that says otherwise is dumb.

[Toizumi]

Who cares what region of Spain he's from. :confusedshrug: he can play. I went to visit friends in Spain last summer during the olympics and caught onto the hype. Rubio is sick. Rondo and should get even better than he is now and although Ricky is too good to be a bust, I don't know if his rookie year will be as good as the season Rondo had this year. Overall, I think Rubio will be the better player. But it might take him a few years to establish himself in the league. Rondo is already up there (although he's still underrated). Time will tell.

[GoldMedallist]

Who cares what region of Spain he's from. :confusedshrug: he can play. I went to visit friends in Spain last summer during the olympics and caught onto the hype. Rubio is sick. Rondo and should get even better than he is now and although Ricky is too good to be a bust, I don't know if his rookie year will be as good as the season Rondo had this year. Overall, I think Rubio will be the better player. But it might take him a few years to establish himself in the league. Rondo is already up there (although he's still underrated). Time will tell.

That's absolutely correct.

[dnyk1337]

Just because he's from Spain doesn't make him Spanish. The regions hammertime posted earlier are about as different as countries in Europe. In the future it's said that the regions might even split up into their own countries. People living in Spain could tell you they've tried over the years. Spain is a very different country. You can't automatically think everyone is the same because they're in the same country. It's kinda like the difference between French Canadians and English Canadians. They just happen to live in a region with the same name.

[chains5000]

Just because he's from Spain doesn't make him Spanish. The regions hammertime posted earlier are about as different as countries in Europe. In the future it's said that the regions might even split up into their own countries. People living in Spain could tell you they've tried over the years. Spain is a very different country. You can't automatically think everyone is the same because they're in the same country. It's kinda like the difference between French Canadians and English Canadians. They just happen to live in a region with the same name.
I wouldn't say the differences are big enough.
Sure you got some people in Catalu

[GoldMedallist]

I he didn't feel Spanish, he wouldn't have gone playing with Spanish National Team.

He did, an that's enough for me.

[Narf]

Just because he's from Spain doesn't make him Spanish.
Uh, yes, it does :banghead:

Again: Catalu

[SuperLopez]

BTW as for this name 5 players better in the world than Rudy non-NBA, well I can just use guys playing last year in Europe alone and do it.

Theo Papaloukas
Terrell McIntyre
Dimitris Diamantidis
Tiago Splitter
Vassilis Spanoulis
Ramunas Siskuaskas
Mike Batiste
Nikola Pekovic
Pablo Prigioni
Arvydas Macijauskas
Igor Rakocevic
Lynn Greer
Nikola Vujcic
David Andersen
Jaka Lakovic
Matjaz Smodis
Ksystof Lavrinovic
Ioannis Bourousis
Panagiotis Vasilopoulos
Erazem Lorbek
Antonis Fotsis
Viktor Khryapa
JR Holden
Andreas Glyniadakis
Felipe Reyes
Fran Vazquez
Ersan Ilyasova



debatable but in the same general class and certainly at least comparable

Brad Newley
Zoran Planinic
Nikos Zisis
Rimas Kaukenas:oldlol:
Georgios Printezis:oldlol:
Sani Becirovic
Yotam Halperin
Drew Nicholas
Ioannis Kalampokis
Novica Velickovic
Mirza Teletovic
Pete Mickeal
Sergi Vidal
Dimitrios Tsaldaris
Carl English
Chuck Eidson
Lior Eliyahu


It's freaking ridiculous to call Fernandez the best player on Earth that wasn't in the NBA.Are you serious?

Lorbek, Newly:wtf: , CARL ENGLISH :eek: , SERGI VIDAL
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

You always underrate Rudy because he played in the DKV Joventut, if he had played in CSKA, Bar

[mrhoopfan]

Who cares what region of Spain he's from. :confusedshrug: he can play. I went to visit friends in Spain last summer during the olympics and caught onto the hype. Rubio is sick. Rondo and should get even better than he is now and although Ricky is too good to be a bust, I don't know if his rookie year will be as good as the season Rondo had this year. Overall, I think Rubio will be the better player. But it might take him a few years to establish himself in the league. Rondo is already up there (although he's still underrated). Time will tell.

I agree, my point with the OP was to say if he becomes as successful as a Rajon Rondo, that's not bad because IMO their skill sets are similar. But some of the other comparisons I didn't like AND we saw this before with Kukoc and to a lot smaller extent Jasikevicius who when I watched clips of him overseas looked unreal, with his flair, confidence AND deadly jumper.

[sodap]

Rubio is most definitely not an ethnic Spaniard. He's a Spanish citizen, but that's a whole other beast. Rubio is Catalan.

im spanish and i have to say

WTF

[sodap]

http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Spain+v+England+International+Friendly+vCAQ4tCvq0-l.jpg


Madrid, Andalucia, Madrid, Catalu

[Lebowsky]

Well, an ethnic Spaniard would be someone whose mother tongue is Spanish, for one thing. Rubio's is obviously not. Or, to make this visually effective, you're ethnically Spanish if you're from the part of Spain coloured red on this map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/f/f4/20060814150823!Spain_languages.PNG

And before you start responding, please consult this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_people

You're pretty ignorant.

[Jinxed]

BTW as for this name 5 players better in the world than Rudy non-NBA, well I can just use guys playing last year in Europe alone and do it.

Theo Papaloukas
Terrell McIntyre
Dimitris Diamantidis
Tiago Splitter
Vassilis Spanoulis
Ramunas Siskuaskas
Mike Batiste
Nikola Pekovic
Pablo Prigioni
Arvydas Macijauskas
Igor Rakocevic
Lynn Greer
Nikola Vujcic
David Andersen
Jaka Lakovic
Matjaz Smodis
Ksystof Lavrinovic
Ioannis Bourousis
Panagiotis Vasilopoulos
Erazem Lorbek
Antonis Fotsis
Viktor Khryapa
JR Holden
Andreas Glyniadakis
Felipe Reyes
Fran Vazquez
Ersan Ilyasova
.

Splitter, Prigioni, Reyes, Vasquez, Rakocevic, Anderson...all played in the ACB in 2007-2008 and none of them played as well as Rudy, who was second in the MVP voting. So let's scratch them off the list.

Spanoulis,Macijauskas (who I love,), Mike Batiste, Lynn Greer, Khryapa ...all had very brief NBA stints where they couldn't get off the bench, avg about 2 pts per game. Scratch.

Terrell McIntyre was waived by the Hornets, never played an NBA game. Scratch

Vasilopoulis,Glyniadakis,Bouroisis,Smodis,Papalouk is, Fotsis...all these greek guys are pretty good, and they play well together but individually, please..could never play in the NBA the way Rudy does. Scratch.

So where does that leave us...Siskauskis, Jr Holden, are the only ones that aren't straight laughable.

At the Olympics Siskauskis and Rudy played head to head. Rudy had 18 points, Siskauskis had 7, despite playing more minutes. scratch.

So..Jr Holden? Is he really better than Rudy? I certainly wouldn't want him over Rudy on my team. Scratch..

And that leaves....no one.

[Grinder]

Theo Papaloukas - A shadow of his former self and is very inconsistent these days. Papaloukas is one of my favorite players of all time.
Terrell McIntyre - An undersized scoring point guard, Rudy could easily put up his numbers if he had that kind of supporting cast around him.
Dimitris Diamantidis - A glue guy regardless of whether he's playing on PAO or a Eurocup team. Doesn't have the offensive arsenal to carry a team the way Rudy does.
Tiago Splitter - This is debatable, and he's nowhere near as good as Scola was for Tau.
Vassilis Spanoulis - Rudy is better in every aspect offensively than Spanoulis except for possibly ball-handling.
Ramunas Siskuaskas - I'll give you this one, Siskauskas is the best player outside the NBA.
Mike Batiste - No.
Nikola Pekovic - Very talented, but too streaky.
Pablo Prigioni - he's nothing without Luis Scola, can't create off the dribble, and has below average athleticism.
Arvydas Macijauskas - Absolutely not.
Igor Rakocevic - Chucker. Europe's version of Ben Gordon, certainly not better than Rudy.
Lynn Greer - No.
Nikola Vujcic - No.
David Andersen - Hahahaha, no.
Jaka Lakovic - Not even close.
Matjaz Smodis - Possibly, but can never be more than a solid role player in the NBA.
Ksystof Lavrinovic - Nope.
Ioannis Bourousis - If he was in shape and worked out a bit more then yes.
Panagiotis Vasilopoulos - NO. Is this is a joke?
Erazem Lorbek - Nope.
Antonis Fotsis - Hahahaha. The soft Euro version of Rasheed Wallace.
Viktor Khryapa - :roll:
JR Holden - Not even close. CSKA would take Rudy over Holden anyday if they could get ahold of another half-decent point.
Andreas Glyniadakis - Glynaidakis sucks.
Felipe Reyes - Reyes is a beast, but being better than Rudy is debatable.
Fran Vazquez - Absolutely not.
Ersan Ilyasova - See above.

Even mentioning any of those guys in the second list is a joke. Glyniadakis, Vazquez, Khryapa, Vasilopolous and Ilyasolva? LMAO.

The only guys that have a case for being better than Rudy are Splitter, Siskauskas, Reyes and maybe Papaloukas.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

[QUOTE=SuperLopez]Are you serious?

Lorbek, Newly:wtf: , CARL ENGLISH :eek: , SERGI VIDAL
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

You always underrate Rudy because he played in the DKV Joventut, if he had played in CSKA, Bar

[Lakas Fan Yo]

I agree, my point with the OP was to say if he becomes as successful as a Rajon Rondo, that's not bad because IMO their skill sets are similar. But some of the other comparisons I didn't like AND we saw this before with Kukoc and to a lot smaller extent Jasikevicius who when I watched clips of him overseas looked unreal, with his flair, confidence AND deadly jumper.

Saras Jasikevicius is a great offensive player. And look at his NBA stats in Indiana. He could give you 15 and 8-9 easily in the NBA if he could play good enough D to play starter's minutes. The problem with him is that he cannot play defense. He can't guard anyone. He's one of the worst defenders I have ever seen. He got away with it in Spain because he played with such a deep team and with so many good players and even had a prime Bodiroga (Europe's best player) on his team.

He got away with it in Maccabi because they were Europe's version of the D'Antoni Suns. He didn't get away with it in Indiana because they expected defense. He didn't play in Golden State because they didn't need him.

He doesn't get away with it in Panathinaikos now because they also expect defense like the Pacers. He is probably the worst guard on defense in the entire Greek league.

So again, you seem to understand hype, but you don't seem to understand player evaluation.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Splitter, Prigioni, Reyes, Vasquez, Rakocevic, Anderson...all played in the ACB in 2007-2008 and none of them played as well as Rudy, who was second in the MVP voting. So let's scratch them off the list.

Spanoulis,Macijauskas (who I love,), Mike Batiste, Lynn Greer, Khryapa ...all had very brief NBA stints where they couldn't get off the bench, avg about 2 pts per game. Scratch.

Terrell McIntyre was waived by the Hornets, never played an NBA game. Scratch

Vasilopoulis,Glyniadakis,Bouroisis,Smodis,Papalouk is, Fotsis...all these greek guys are pretty good, and they play well together but individually, please..could never play in the NBA the way Rudy does. Scratch.

So where does that leave us...Siskauskis, Jr Holden, are the only ones that aren't straight laughable.

At the Olympics Siskauskis and Rudy played head to head. Rudy had 18 points, Siskauskis had 7, despite playing more minutes. scratch.

So..Jr Holden? Is he really better than Rudy? I certainly wouldn't want him over Rudy on my team. Scratch..

And that leaves....no one.

Your knowledge of European players ----> SCRATCH!

Some of your errors here are downright embarrassing. You completely exposed yourself. Never seen a European game in your life. Unreal some of the errors you made there.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Theo Papaloukas - A shadow of his former self and is very inconsistent these days. Papaloukas is one of my favorite players of all time.
Terrell McIntyre - An undersized scoring point guard, Rudy could easily put up his numbers if he had that kind of supporting cast around him.
Dimitris Diamantidis - A glue guy regardless of whether he's playing on PAO or a Eurocup team. Doesn't have the offensive arsenal to carry a team the way Rudy does.
Tiago Splitter - This is debatable, and he's nowhere near as good as Scola was for Tau.
Vassilis Spanoulis - Rudy is better in every aspect offensively than Spanoulis except for possibly ball-handling.
Ramunas Siskuaskas - I'll give you this one, Siskauskas is the best player outside the NBA.
Mike Batiste - No.
Nikola Pekovic - Very talented, but too streaky.
Pablo Prigioni - he's nothing without Luis Scola, can't create off the dribble, and has below average athleticism.
Arvydas Macijauskas - Absolutely not.
Igor Rakocevic - Chucker. Europe's version of Ben Gordon, certainly not better than Rudy.
Lynn Greer - No.
Nikola Vujcic - No.
David Andersen - Hahahaha, no.
Jaka Lakovic - Not even close.
Matjaz Smodis - Possibly, but can never be more than a solid role player in the NBA.
Ksystof Lavrinovic - Nope.
Ioannis Bourousis - If he was in shape and worked out a bit more then yes.
Panagiotis Vasilopoulos - NO. Is this is a joke?
Erazem Lorbek - Nope.
Antonis Fotsis - Hahahaha. The soft Euro version of Rasheed Wallace.
Viktor Khryapa - :roll:
JR Holden - Not even close. CSKA would take Rudy over Holden anyday if they could get ahold of another half-decent point.
Andreas Glyniadakis - Glynaidakis sucks.
Felipe Reyes - Reyes is a beast, but being better than Rudy is debatable.
Fran Vazquez - Absolutely not.
Ersan Ilyasova - See above.

Even mentioning any of those guys in the second list is a joke. Glyniadakis, Vazquez, Khryapa, Vasilopolous and Ilyasolva? LMAO.

The only guys that have a case for being better than Rudy are Splitter, Siskauskas, Reyes and maybe Papaloukas.


If you actually do watch European basketball and you actually think Rudy is better than guys like Papaloukas, Spanoulis, Bourousis, Splitter, Pekovic, McIntyre then you have an exceptionally low knowledge of the game, of players, and basketball IQ.

The most troubling ones are Spanoulis and Papaloukas.........you gotta be freaking kidding me. These guys are better by several levels than Rudy is.

[Mechanixxxx]

I'm tired of all the hype! The next Stockton, Maravich the next Nash. Those two guys were all accurate shooters !. People on this board talk about how Boston's system fits Rondo perfectly........no, it doesn't. If he was on a team where he could shoot/drive at will(like he can now without KG) then this guy would average 20. I think Rubio will be solid but when we have Americans that are great ball players and we go and throw constant hype on a foreigner, it bugs me. :banghead: I can't name a European point guard that has been very successful in the NBA.
hmmm...Tony Parker...:confusedshrug:

[Lakas Fan Yo]

hmmm...Tony Parker...:confusedshrug:

According to several posters here Parker is not European. They claim he is American. They then act like you are stupid for arguing with it. Yes I am serious.

[Jinxed]

If you actually do watch European basketball and you actually think Rudy is better than guys like Papaloukas, Spanoulis, Bourousis, Splitter, Pekovic, McIntyre then you have an exceptionally low knowledge of the game, of players, and basketball IQ.

The most troubling ones are Spanoulis and Papaloukas.........you gotta be freaking kidding me. These guys are better by several levels than Rudy is.

Spanoulis NBA Career...2.7 ppg 0.8 assts in 8.8 minutes and 31% shooting.

Rudy Fernandez 10.4 ppg 2.0 assts in 25 minutes 43% shooting..

As we can all clearly see, Spanoulis is levels above Rudy.....LOL..

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Spanoulis NBA Career...2.7 ppg 0.8 assts in 8.8 minutes and 31% shooting.

Rudy Fernandez 10.4 ppg 2.0 assts in 25 minutes 43% shooting..

As we can all clearly see, Spanoulis is levels above Rudy.....LOL..

It is 100% predictable that someone with your lack of European basketball knowledge would make such a pathetic argument. The Blazers would probably cream their pants if Spanoulis showed up at their practice.

He would be playing 38-40 minutes a night if he was on the Blazers. But you obviously have NEVER watched a European game in your life. You should keep adding to the "Dirk greatest European player ever thread?" you will fit right in with the other NBA only fans that don't know jack squat about European players.

[ukplayer4]

lmao at dasher in this thread.



i am having serious difficulty with this "logic" that is used for an american trying to claim tony parker as one of their own. tony parker was born/raised/developed/played all his amauteur and pro basketball in france before going directly from france to the nba. he is french pure and simple.

[InspiredLebowski]

If Parker is American, Saras wears a cowboy hat and boots.

[Jinxed]

It is 100% predictable that someone with your lack of European basketball knowledge would make such a pathetic argument. The Blazers would probably cream their pants if Spanoulis showed up at their practice.

He would be playing 38-40 minutes a night if he was on the Blazers. But you obviously have NEVER watched a European game in your life. You should keep adding to the "Dirk greatest European player ever thread?" you will fit right in with the other NBA only fans that don't know jack squat about European players.

I've seen plenty of European basketball games and I love it.

But tell me, if Spanoulis was so good how come he couldn't get off the Rockets bench behind the Awesome AND1 star Skip to my Lou?

and why did Van Gundy say this about him as his reason for not playing " His turnovers have been high; his fouls have been high; his shooting percentage has been low."

but you know what..Euroleague is different then the NBA so maybe Spanoulis is better there right?

Now let's their last Euroleague seasons

Rudy 2006-7 Age 21 Pts 16 rbs 4 Asssts 2 Fg% 48 3p% 42 ranking 16.8

Spanoulis 2008-9 Age 26 Pts 9.9 Rbs 2.5 assts 3.8 Fg% 42 3p% 25 ranking 11.5

As you can clearly see Rudy is the far better Euroleague player and NBA player.

It's not even that close. It looks like he is the one who is levels about Spanoulis.

[Grinder]

If you actually do watch European basketball and you actually think Rudy is better than guys like Papaloukas, Spanoulis, Bourousis, Splitter, Pekovic, McIntyre then you have an exceptionally low knowledge of the game, of players, and basketball IQ.

The most troubling ones are Spanoulis and Papaloukas.........you gotta be freaking kidding me. These guys are better by several levels than Rudy is.

Seems like you're the one overrating your so-called knowledge of the European game. I watch just as much, if not more Euro ball than the NBA and you're clearly biased regarding Rudy.

Spanoulis isn't even the best guard on his team. In what ways is Spanoulis better than Rudy if its so obvouis??

Papaloukas is nowhere near as good as he used to be and his defense is even below average these days.

Put Rudy on any of the final four teams and he'd still average around 15-16 points per game. He can get his step back off against anyone in Europe.

[Jinxed]

And what about Papaloukas?

2006-2007 Ranking..Age 29...Prime....Ranking of 15.3


Rudy 2006-2007 Age 21..Youngster Ranking of 15.8

Rudy's was better, and that was two years ago. Since then Rudy has only improved by leaps and bounds while Papaloukas has declined.

In 2008-2009 Papaloukas Ranking =12.1

[Grinder]

It is 100% predictable that someone with your lack of European basketball knowledge would make such a pathetic argument. The Blazers would probably cream their pants if Spanoulis showed up at their practice.

He would be playing 38-40 minutes a night if he was on the Blazers. But you obviously have NEVER watched a European game in your life. You should keep adding to the "Dirk greatest European player ever thread?" you will fit right in with the other NBA only fans that don't know jack squat about European players.

No way Spanoulis would be playing 38-40 minutes a night on the Blazers. The guy couldn't get playing time on the Rockets and isn't that much better than he was back then. Spanoulis barely played him to a draw in the Olympics.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

I've seen plenty of European basketball games and I love it.

But tell me, if Spanoulis was so good how come he couldn't get off the Rockets bench behind the Awesome AND1 star Skip to my Lou?

and why did Van Gundy say this about him as his reason for not playing " His turnovers have been high; his fouls have been high; his shooting percentage has been low."

but you know what..Euroleague is different then the NBA so maybe Spanoulis is better there right?

Now let's their last Euroleague seasons

Rudy 2006-7 Age 21 Pts 16 rbs 4 Asssts 2 Fg% 48 3p% 42 ranking 16.8

Spanoulis 2008-9 Age 26 Pts 9.9 Rbs 2.5 assts 3.8 Fg% 42 3p% 25 ranking 11.5

As you can clearly see Rudy is the far better Euroleague player and NBA player.

It's not even that close. It looks like he is the one who is levels about Spanoulis.

I would call Rudy a scrub compared to Spanoulis. But within a short time you will know that. The Knicks are begging him to be their starting point guard.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

Seems like you're the one overrating your so-called knowledge of the European game. I watch just as much, if not more Euro ball than the NBA and you're clearly biased regarding Rudy.

Spanoulis isn't even the best guard on his team. In what ways is Spanoulis better than Rudy if its so obvouis??

Papaloukas is nowhere near as good as he used to be and his defense is even below average these days.

Put Rudy on any of the final four teams and he'd still average around 15-16 points per game. He can get his step back off against anyone in Europe.

Rudy is an overrated POS. Your posts are nonsense plain and simple.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

And what about Papaloukas?

2006-2007 Ranking..Age 29...Prime....Ranking of 15.3


Rudy 2006-2007 Age 21..Youngster Ranking of 15.8

Rudy's was better, and that was two years ago. Since then Rudy has only improved by leaps and bounds while Papaloukas has declined.

In 2008-2009 Papaloukas Ranking =12.1

Let me guess Rudy is also better than Magic Johnson right? Unreal these posts.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

No way Spanoulis would be playing 38-40 minutes a night on the Blazers. The guy couldn't get playing time on the Rockets and isn't that much better than he was back then. Spanoulis barely played him to a draw in the Olympics.

Look man, you REALLY need to stop already. This is downright embarrassing.

Spanoulis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akLWUwwiRik

Yeah absolutely no skills at all on offense.........and never mind that guy is like 10 times a better defender and much better at making teammates better than Fernandez. And he actually beat Team USA.

Don't even go on with Papaloukas. That's just unreal. Papaloukas is one of the handful of best European players that ever lived.

[Grinder]

Look man, you REALLY need to stop already. This is downright embarrassing.
Naw, what's downright embarrassing is you saying that Andre Glyniadakis, who can't even start for MAROUSSI, is better than Rudy Fernandez.

Throwing around names of players you haven't or have barely seen play doesn't make you appear more knowledgable about Euro ball.

[Grinder]

Look man, you REALLY need to stop already. This is downright embarrassing.

Spanoulis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akLWUwwiRik

Yeah absolutely no skills at all on offense.........and never mind that guy is like 10 times a better defender and much better at making teammates better than Fernandez. And he actually beat Team USA.

Don't even go on with Papaloukas. That's just unreal. Papaloukas is one of the handful of best European players that ever lived.

Yeah and Jason Kidd is one of the best point guards of all time but that doesn't mean that guys like Tony Parker aren't better than him now.

I never said Spanoulis has no offensive skills.

Shooting - Rudy
Handles - Spanulis
Finishing - Rudy, most of the time Spanoulis gets to the rim he tries to get bailed out and finishes poorly
Passing - Equal
Creating his own shot - Rudy

[Jinxed]

Yea.. Greece did beat USA in 06' World championships..but then loss to Spain 70-47 in the finals and they didn't even have Gasol! LOL.

or how about in the Olympics..your stacked Greece team full of your heroes

Papaloukis, Spanoulis, Bouroussis, Fotsis and Diamontidis...all of whom you said were better than Ferndaz got crushed by Spain again....And Rudy was the leading scorer in that game in only 22 minutes...

You can watch the game here

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/player.html?assetid=bk1h-bj-sd02-081008-142002&channelcode=sportbk


With all those amazing players Greece should have done great in the Olympics right? Well, they didn't..they went 3-3.... albeit they loss to Spain,USA, Argentina..rough schedule.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

You guys are embarrassing Rudy jock riders. I'm done with this thread. You guys are worse than the very worst Kobe lovers.

[Grinder]

You guys are embarrassing Rudy jock riders. I'm done with this thread. You guys are worse than the very worst Kobe lovers.
No, you just know jack **** about Euro basketball and have no substance or facts to back up any of your biased statements. GTFO.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

No, you just know jack **** about Euro basketball and have no substance or facts to back up any of your biased statements. GTFO.

I obviously know a hell of a lot more about it than you do.

[Grinder]

I obviously know a hell of a lot more about it than you do.

Hahahahahahahaha. So delusional, keep making claims of watching games and players that you've never actually seen.

[LJJ]

Lakas got whooped. :applause:

[Rekindled]

er, you are kidding yourself. i am a big rudy fan, but Vspan is better than RUdy RIGHT NOW.

[LootOP]

the next shaun livingston - length
Called it.

[magic chiongson]

oh there's one of euroleage's alts