Who is the 2nd greatest shooting guard of all-time?

[iTruWarrior]

With #1 being Michael of course. Who is 2nd?

Kobe? Jerry West? Drexler? Gervin? Iverson?

Discuss.

[gxL]

kobe

/thread

[KenneBell]

You can make an argument for Jerry West but Kobe should be there by the end of his career if he isn't 2nd now.

[KeylessEntry]

Tmac by a mile.

[Alpha Wolf]

1 Kobe Bryant

______________

everyone else

[ruslan]

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00499/Kobe_Bryant_280x390_499657a.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/Coyoteesharptongue/more%20pictures/goat.jpg

[Juges8932]

Kobe and IMO it isn't even close.

1) MJ



2) Kobe


3)Drexler









Everybody else. I respect what Jerry West has done for the game, but I don't consider him top 3.

[1987_Lakers]

Jerry West or Kobe Bryant.

[BMOGEFan]

Michael Jordan

[iTruWarrior]

Kobe and IMO it isn't even close.

1) MJ

2) Kobe

3)Drexler



Everybody else
I think you are underrating the man on the NBA logo. Although, I also believe Kobe was probably beter, Jerry is 3rd and it's not close.

It's like this

1. Michael Jordan

(HUGE GAP)

2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West


(Huge Gap)

[Sir Charles]

It has to be between West, Gerving, Drexler, McGrady and Bryant although im my opinion i would choose Adrian Dantley ..he would have owned the league playing that position. He owned the league offensively at the SF

[Bigsmoke]

George Girvin

[Al Thornton]

West(right now)
Kobe
Iceman
the rest

[plowking]

Jordan
Kobe
West
Gervin
Wade
Drexler
Don't care...

[branslowski]

Kobe>>Drexler,(GAP)-(Skip)- West....lmao@ how this is debatable....

Imagine Kobe, Wade, or LeBron in the 50's?....RAP...THREAD/

[InspiredLebowski]

Kobe>>Drexler,(GAP)-(Skip)- West....lmao@ how this is debatable....

Imagine Kobe, Wade, or LeBron in the 50's?....RAP...THREAD/

Imagine Jerry West in the 50s.

[Al Thornton]

Imagine Jerry West in the 50s.
:applause: this weak era excuse is getting ****ing old

[branslowski]

:applause: this weak era excuse is getting ****ing old

True, you guy's are right....For his Era he was Great..

Still...MJ-KB-CD

[KenneBell]

True, you guy's are right....For his Era he was Great..

Still...MJ-KB-CD
West was better than Drexler.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

take your pick between kobe and west.
the espn pundits elected kobe. not so sure myself.

[ruslan]

It has to be between West, Gerving, Drexler, McGrady and Bryant although im my opinion i would choose Adrian Dantley ..he would have owned the league playing that position. He owned the league offensively at the SF

ur putting gervin, tmac? wtf? and dantley over Iverson? :roll: :roll:
Stick to being a barkley troll :mad:

[RoseCity07]

Drexler. He won two games in the finals against Jordan in his prime. He would have been the greatest if Jordan never came along. At the time that series decided who was better, as it was a lot more controversial back then. Now it's a joke, Drexler is second to Jordan.

[iTruWarrior]

Drexler. He won two games in the finals against Jordan in his prime. He would have been the greatest if Jordan never came along. At the time that series decided who was better, as it was a lot more controversial back then. Now it's a joke, Drexler is second to Jordan.
:oldlol: I was surprised you didn't say Roy... Or Oden for that matter. :oldlol:

[RoseCity07]

:oldlol: I was surprised you didn't say Roy... Or Oden for that matter. :oldlol:

I'm surprised you didn't say Mutumbo and blame Jordan for ending Mutumbo's career.

[Legend D]

Kobe>>Drexler,(GAP)-(Skip)- West....lmao@ how this is debatable....

Imagine Kobe, Wade, or LeBron in the 50's?....RAP...THREAD/
Imagine yourself having a brain. Wait that isn't possible.

[qrich]

West , Delonte

[L.Kizzle]

1West
2Kobe
3Glide
4Gervin

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

lol at Jerry West being better than Kobe Bryant. Are u freaking serious?

[L.Kizzle]

lol at Jerry West being better than Kobe Bryant. Are u freaking serious?
Why isn't he better??

[Showtime]

Jerry ****ing West that's who.

[Showtime]

lol at Jerry West being better than Kobe Bryant. Are u freaking serious?
Educate yourself.

[InspiredLebowski]

Why isn't he better??

Because he thought West's only claim to fame was being a GM.

[branslowski]

I Hate Kobe starting right now....


Marvin Williams>>Kobe

(As long as Kobe doesn't finish infront, im cool)....

[DonDadda59]

It has to be between West, Gerving, Drexler, McGrady and Bryant although im my opinion i would choose Adrian Dantley ..he would have owned the league playing that position. He owned the league offensively at the SF

:wtf:

Using that logic, I can make the argument that John Havlicek is the 2nd best SG ever.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Why isn't he better??

Because he played in a weaker era. Point, blank, period.

Would west be an all-star in this current NBA. I think not.

[icemanfan]

With #1 being Michael of course. Who is 2nd?

Kobe? Jerry West? Drexler? Gervin? Iverson?

Discuss.
Mike is only slightly better than Ice because of his defense. If we went by O only Ice wins. George Gervin was the purest shooter the league has ever had. Too bad he never got past the Lakers. What the defense was allowed to do in this era vs now is rediculous. If Ice had played in the "do not touch the guards" era of basketball he would have added at least 10 points per game to his career average.

[qrich]

Because he played in a weaker era. Point, blank, period.

Would west be an all-star in this current NBA. I think not.

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9286/facepalmsmiley1ti3.gif

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Mike is only slightly better than Ice because of his defense. If we went by O only Ice wins. George Gervin was the purest shooter the league has ever had. Too bad he never got past the Lakers.

So, Jordan is only slightly better than Gervin because of defense? :oldlol:

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9286/facepalmsmiley1ti3.gif

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9286/facepalmsmiley1ti3.gif

[Al Thornton]

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9286/facepalmsmiley1ti3.gif

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9286/facepalmsmiley1ti3.gif
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9286/facepalmsmiley1ti3.gif

[icemanfan]

So, Jordan is only slightly better than Gervin because of defense? :oldlol:
I am not the first to say so nor will I be the last. During the finals a couple of years back the boys at ABC covered this and rated Gervin as the best shooter ever in the NBA just above Mike. They did say the Mike would be the better overall because of his defense. George was at Chicago for Mike's Rookie season but I don't remember ever seeing them on the floor at the same time. Would have enjoyed that greatly. Hardly anyone here is old enough to have watched it themselves and therefor have a poor baseline to judge. I am fortunate to have had a Dad who loved basketball and got to go to my first Spurs game in 1975 (vs the Pacers).

[ronnymac]

Ice man gorge gervin, clyde the glyde or kobe.

[ronnymac]

I'll go kobe because of that amazing 50 plus games streak . that was frakish.

[NBASTATMAN]

With #1 being Michael of course. Who is 2nd?

Kobe? Jerry West? Drexler? Gervin? Iverson?

Discuss.



AT this point Jerry west,,, many finals and he played at a high level too.. Not his fault his teammates choked.. His numbers in all facets are better than Kobe's and he never was given the ability to play with Wilt in his prime. Still Kobe if he wins two more titles and keeps playing at a high level takes this one for his ability to play and win titles...

[NBASTATMAN]

Because he played in a weaker era. Point, blank, period.

Would west be an all-star in this current NBA. I think not.


this is such a crap out.. Today's era is weak since they are no true Super STAR CENTERS AND the perimter players are given a freeway to the basket...

[1987_Lakers]

:milton

[Lebron23]

Jerry West and Kobe Bryant

[Foster5k]

1.Jordan
2.Jordan
3.Jordan
:lol

but.. I'll take Kobe, if I had to choose.

[Kombo]

Jordan was the only one to win anything without a premier big man. West had an aged Wilt, though he was still dominate.

Really the only one to win anything without an elite big was Dumars. Those pistons teams were so well rounded, they were something special. 6 players averaging double figures and rodman a point away, not to mention there other fabulous role players. Though as much as I love Dumars, he's no where near the top 5.

1. MJ
2. Gervin
3. West
4. Kobe
5. Drexler

Really 2-5 is so close in this group, it's just personal preference who you put where. I feel the gap between this second tier (2-5) is pretty large to the next group that might include the likes of Pistol, Reggie, Iverson and others.

[jmill]

Problem with threads like this is that comparing guys like West/Kobe is silly to me for a few reasons.

One, most people didn't get to see Jerry West play which leads to just basing your opinion on numbers which can be very misleading depending on the era a guy played in.

Two, I don't like comparing guys from different era's. I just think it's very tough to accurately do so.

The game was just so different back then.

The league scoring average when Jerry West played was 112-118 ppg.

The scoring average since Kobe has been in the league has been 95-100 ppg.

So yea, Jerry West was putting up some crazy numbers in his prime and I'm sure he was nasty but teams were also averaging 15 points more per game.

Things like that are why I just like to compare players from their respective era's.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Either Jerry West or Clyde the Glide. Personally, I'd go with Jerry West.

[Stringer Bell]

For what it's worth, here's an ESPN article on this.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-GreatestSGs

[Psileas]

For now, the all-time Finals leading scorer and most complete SG up to Jordan's era, Jerry West.

However, Kobe is catching up and he'll probably finish his career as the #2 SG and a top-10 players ever.

[NBASTATMAN]

For now, the all-time Finals leading scorer and most complete SG up to Jordan's era, Jerry West.

However, Kobe is catching up and he'll probably finish his career as the #2 SG and a top-10 players ever.



Kobe needs to actually win as the man for him to even reach top 15.. I mean two or three titles with this team are in order for him to reach what I say is the golden 12... Mj to me after researching and researching is number 1 and it isn't even close. He is so much better than anyone else and his resume just shows it.. Kobe in my opinion is a guy who if he had gone to college would have turned out a better player but probably with less rings... Kobe shoould go down as a top 12 player but their is still much for him to accomplish to get their.. Alot more....

[GOBB]

West vs Kobe for 2nd best SG of all time. I dont see Drexler, AI in the convo.

[Psileas]

Kobe needs to actually win as the man for him to even reach top 15.. I mean two or three titles with this team are in order for him to reach what I say is the golden 12... Mj to me after researching and researching is number 1 and it isn't even close. He is so much better than anyone else and his resume just shows it.. Kobe in my opinion is a guy who if he had gone to college would have turned out a better player but probably with less rings... Kobe shoould go down as a top 12 player but their is still much for him to accomplish to get their.. Alot more....

I disagree, Kobe with 2 or 3 more titles (assumingly at least 2 as the best player of his team) will get to a total of 5-6 (and at least 2 more Finals appearances-2004, 2008) and will very easily be in the top-10. Jordan had been called the #1 GOAT player by many, even by his 9th season, after he had won 3 championships as his team's #1. Hakeem is widely considered top-10 after 2 titles, 1 more finals appearance and not much else. Granted, prime Jordan and Hakeem were better than prime Kobe, but Kobe after 2-3 more titles will have more team success than both and will have played a total of 15+ seasons, which will boost all his other totals to very high levels. Regardless of who you'd still have above Kobe, I'm more than 95% sure that 5-6 title Kobe will have more team success than many of them and more accolades than some of them, as well.

[Foster5k]

AI in the convo.
:lol

[Juges8932]

I disagree, Kobe with 2 or 3 more titles (assumingly at least 2 as the best player of his team) will get to a total of 5-6 (and at least 2 more Finals appearances-2004, 2008) and will very easily be in the top-10. Jordan had been called the #1 GOAT player by many, even by his 9th season, after he had won 3 championships as his team's #1. Hakeem is widely considered top-10 after 2 titles, 1 more finals appearance and not much else. Granted, prime Jordan and Hakeem were better than prime Kobe, but Kobe after 2-3 more titles will have more team success than both and will have played a total of 15+ seasons, which will boost all his other totals to very high levels. Regardless of who you'd still have above Kobe, I'm more than 95% sure that 5-6 title Kobe will have more team success than many of them and more accolades than some of them, as well.

I agree with you.
:cheers:

[DukeDelonte13]

as of now: probably Kobe.

as of later: probably Wade.

[kwajo]

:lol
What's so funny? He's right.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe needs to actually win as the man for him to even reach top 15.. I mean two or three titles with this team are in order for him to reach what I say is the golden 12... Mj to me after researching and researching is number 1 and it isn't even close. He is so much better than anyone else and his resume just shows it.. Kobe in my opinion is a guy who if he had gone to college would have turned out a better player but probably with less rings... Kobe shoould go down as a top 12 player but their is still much for him to accomplish to get their.. Alot more....

karl malone never won a title and he is widely regarded as the #1 or #2 PF of all time. Not less than #2.

[GSW1984]

Micheal Jordan

Jerry West

David Thompson

Those my top 3 Kobe is Top 5 and without David Thompson there would be no MJ as we know him.

[GSW1984]

Tmac by a mile.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[phoenix18]

I would say Jerry west

[tedloc]

second greatest ?

michael jordan

[allball]

I'll take Jerry. he invented the position.

[DatDudeD]

Its either kobe or the logo, nobody else is in the conversation...imo. I hate that whole thing about he played in a weak era, i mean its not his fault he played in that time.

[Biddy77]

The Logo did this as a shooter who had no 3point line.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html

twice had the top PER in the league, and he was top 6 in the league 11 out of his 15 seasons played.

twice had the highest TS% in the league, and he was top 7 nine times in his career.

10 time All NBA First Team
2 time All NBA Second Team
(that's 12 selections out of 15 seasons...)

4 time All NBA Defensive 1st Team
1 time All NBA Defensive 2nd Team

14 ASG games in 15 years...

a finals MVP...

i don't even want to go count all his finals appearances. someone else do it.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

The Logo did this as a shooter who had no 3point line.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html

twice had the top PER in the league, and he was top 6 in the league 11 out of his 15 seasons played.

twice had the highest TS% in the league, and he was top 7 nine times in his career.

10 time All NBA First Team
2 time All NBA Second Team
(that's 12 selections out of 15 seasons...)

4 time All NBA Defensive 1st Team
1 time All NBA Defensive 2nd Team

14 ASG games in 15 years...

a finals MVP...

i don't even want to go count all his finals appearances. someone else do it.

weak era.

[Biddy77]

weak era.

weak argument.

in his era, he was more dominant than kobe has been in his.

since the question posed wasn't "other than MJ, who would be the 2nd best SG in this era if players from all eras came forward in time?", it's irrelevant whether West would have been the same now or not.

[sodapop]

(Guard position)
My opinion, the #1 pick will be Pistol Pete Maravich.
The 2nd pick?
2. John Stockton
3. Jeff Hornacek
4. Steve Kerr
5. Bob Cousy

[OldSchoolBBall]

4 time All NBA Defensive 1st Team
1 time All NBA Defensive 2nd Team


And he did that despite the fact that the defensive teams didn't exist until his 9th year in the league.

[giantgonzolez]

With #1 being Michael of course. Who is 2nd?

Kobe? Jerry West? Drexler? Gervin? Iverson?

Discuss.

Drexler is certainly better than Kobe. You have to consider how good the supporting cast of players are. Also, Drexler had to play against MJ so that makes it way tougher than the others had it.

[giantgonzolez]

Iverson and even McGrady are part of the ELITE 25 PPG Playoff Club with the likes of Olajuwon, Jordan, etc. Even Wilt Chamberlain isn't on it, and Shaq won't be on it when his career is over.
That alone should put Iverson and McGrady into consideration.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Drexler is certainly better than Kobe. You have to consider how good the supporting cast of players are. Also, Drexler had to play against MJ so that makes it way tougher than the others had it.

:roll:
drexler is not even in the discussion.

[Alpha Wolf]

Drexler is certainly better than Kobe. You have to consider how good the supporting cast of players are. Also, Drexler had to play against MJ so that makes it way tougher than the others had it.


Kobe is better than Drexler

Kobe has much more of a killer instinct than Drexler had. (if you don't think this is true, then you've only seen highlights of Drexler dunking, and never saw him play in his prime). Drexler led Portland to the finals twice, losing in five games to the Pistons in 1990 and in six games to the Bulls in 1992.

In 1990, the Blazers split the first two games in Detroit, only to become the first team to lose all three "middle games" on their home court. Drexler should not have allowed that to happen. He allowed the Pistons to sweep the Blazers on their home court in Portland.

After the 90 finals, I correctly predicted that Drexler would never LEAD his team to a title (he eventually did win one, with Olajuwon leading the way).

Drexler's regular season and playoff scoring averages were exactly the same, 20.4 points per game. Not that that's bad, but as the best player on his team, he needed to assert himself out there more than he did.

There's really no reason to think Houston would not have won the title in 95 even without Drexler, as they'd won it all the year before, and Michael was not a factor in the playoffs, having re-joined the Bulls late that season, following a disastrous baseball "career".

Obviously, at 20 ppg, Drexler was not the scorer that Kobe (24 ppg) was. To be fair, Drexler's 20 ppg average includes the decline phase to his career, which Kobe hasn't hit yet.

If the top 50 players in NBA history were chosen today, Drexler would not be on the list any more.

Drexler had Jordan-like talent (few people actually knew this because he played in Portland). Clyde was a better passer and rebounder than Jordan. Jordan was a better on-the-ball defender, but Drexler was better at playing the passing lanes. He should have approached the 1992 Finals against Michael as a personal challenge.

Drexler didn't always maximize his abilities. And he didn't take the games onto his shoulders the way Kobe does. If he had, he would have won more rings than he did, given the talent he had around him.

[xtn5021]

Kobe.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:roll:
drexler is not even in the discussion.

It's comments like this that make people hate Kobe groupies. Drexler is certainly "in the discussion." One of the 5 best rebounding guards of all time, a top 4 SG passer, and led his team to the Finals twice. Kobe is better, but your homerism is laughable.

[Bush4Ever]

Kobe or West are the only valid choices here, out of the players in history considered to be SGs.

I think Kobe needs just 1 really strong NBA Finals Performance + Title as the lead player of his team, and I think he pulls away from West. Right now I think they are fairly equal.

[OldSchoolBBall]

If the top 50 players in NBA history were chosen today, Drexler would not be on the list any more.

Uhh, sure he would be. He's in the 22-30 range. There haven't been 25+ players since he retired who would make that list. The 5-10 players who would actually make a current top 50 all-time list would bump off the bottom 10 from the previous list. Drexler was not in that bottom 10.


Drexler had Jordan-like talent (few people actually knew this because he played in Portland).

Uhh, no.


Clyde was a better passer and rebounder than Jordan.

Uhh, no. He was easily a better rebounder than Kobe, though, and probably a better passer.


Jordan was a better on-the-ball defender, but Drexler was better at playing the passing lanes.

:oldlol:

I guess that's why Jordan led the league in steals three times, finished top 3 like 7 times, and is known as the most disruptive guard defender in history.

[utahjazzrock]

(Guard position)
My opinion, the #1 pick will be Pistol Pete Maravich.
The 2nd pick?
2. John Stockton
3. Jeff Hornacek
4. Steve Kerr
5. Bob Cousy
I do agree Pistol Pete deserves some respect for 2nd best, even tough hes not. But hes better than A.I and some others mentioned.:lol
Horncak isn't near Top 5 PG.
MAYBE Top 10.
And Kerr? Wow. He was a good shooter. Nothing else. He averaged 6pts,
2 ast throughout his career
There are probably 15 CURRENT SG's better than him.

[Mdog1]

West.

[utahjazzrock]

With #1 being Michael of course. Who is 2nd?

Kobe? Jerry West? Drexler? Gervin? Iverson?

Discuss.
Personally I dont see A.I in this.
Some people consider Oscer Robertson is SG. If you are one of those people, he gets my vote.

If you are not, I'd say West now, but Kobe is close to breaking it.
Gervin follows, then Drexler, and you gotta love Pistol Pete Maravich and David Thompson.
And D-Wades gotta be thrown in the mix later in his career.:bowdown:

[plowking]

Iverson and even McGrady are part of the ELITE 25 PPG Playoff Club with the likes of Olajuwon, Jordan, etc. Even Wilt Chamberlain isn't on it, and Shaq won't be on it when his career is over.
That alone should put Iverson and McGrady into consideration.

It's easy for McGrady when all he's had to face is 1st round competition.

[jmill]

The Logo did this as a shooter who had no 3point line.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html

twice had the top PER in the league, and he was top 6 in the league 11 out of his 15 seasons played.

twice had the highest TS% in the league, and he was top 7 nine times in his career.

10 time All NBA First Team
2 time All NBA Second Team
(that's 12 selections out of 15 seasons...)

4 time All NBA Defensive 1st Team
1 time All NBA Defensive 2nd Team

14 ASG games in 15 years...

a finals MVP...

i don't even want to go count all his finals appearances. someone else do it.

How about the fact that the scoring average when he played was 112-118 ppg as opposed to 95-100 for Kobe?

[branslowski]

How about the fact that the scoring average when he played was 112-118 ppg as opposed to 95-100 for Kobe?

This Never gets even remotely acknowledged....And when it does, the Fuddy duds pushes it away as if it doesn't factor into anything...

80's Also...Alot of points scored by Teams, More possessions...???

1+1=2......or 3 in their case...

[Psileas]

How about the fact that the scoring average when he played was 112-118 ppg as opposed to 95-100 for Kobe?

It's strange that you answer to the above quote with this. The things mentioned there (All-NBA teams, ASG's, PER, TS%) either include or don't depend on pace.

Kobe is a somewhat bigger scorer than West, numbers adjusted. But he also takes a larger percentage of his team's shots.

[Myth]

For what it's worth, here's an ESPN article on this.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-GreatestSGs

I don't always agree with ESPN, but that is pretty accurate. I'd switch Drexler and AI though and the last 3 I wouldn't know enough about to accurately gauge. I'd think that Wade is creeping into this list as well.

[plowking]

I don't always agree with ESPN, but that is pretty accurate. I'd switch Drexler and AI though and the last 3 I wouldn't know enough about to accurately gauge. I'd think that Wade is creeping into this list as well.


Creeping?

Can anyone honestly make a case as to how Miller or Dumars were better then Wade? :oldlol:

[iTruWarrior]

Creeping?

Can anyone honestly make a case as to how Miller or Dumars were better then Wade? :oldlol:
Miller and Dumars didn't have player bandwagons fans like Wade does from people like you.

[branslowski]

Wade>>Dumars...

[Jasper]

troll thread starter already knew the answer - but for you all just picking up on this thread :

Drexler 1086 games age 35 20ppg 5 assists 6 boards

West 932 games age 35 27ppg 6 assists 5.8 boards 39 minutes average

^------- not close but West 4th / Drexler 5th maybe ...

3rd : George Gervin -

played till 33 years old
791 games NBA 269 ABA = 1060
26 ppg 2.8 assists 4.6 boards 33 minutes a night


2nd : Kobe Byrant
playing at age 30 (will try to play till 40)
948 games
25ppg 4.6 assists 5.3 boards in 36 minutes a night

/thread

[Biddy77]

How about the fact that the scoring average when he played was 112-118 ppg as opposed to 95-100 for Kobe?

true. that would be a great argument except that the shot counts were frequently similar, and west scored more efficiently--again, without the benefit of a 3point line.

[plowking]

Miller and Dumars didn't have player bandwagons fans like Wade does from people like you.

That doesn't even make sense and I can see you're still hurt from the thread before. :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Drexler had Jordan-like talent (few people actually knew this because he played in Portland).
In terms of physical talents like jumping? Sure.

Everything else, hell no.

This was the player who could only dribble with his right hand and stared at the floor while doing it.

[stephanieg]

Iverson and even McGrady are part of the ELITE 25 PPG Playoff Club with the likes of Olajuwon, Jordan, etc. Even Wilt Chamberlain isn't on it, and Shaq won't be on it when his career is over.
That alone should put Iverson and McGrady into consideration.

You would make a great GM.

[Niquesports]

Kobe or West are the only valid choices here, out of the players in history considered to be SGs.

I think Kobe needs just 1 really strong NBA Finals Performance + Title as the lead player of his team, and I think he pulls away from West. Right now I think they are fairly equal.


This is where the debate gets sticky. IF you have West as a SG then you need to add Walt Frazier. Which would put him over everyone but maybe West and Kobe. By the end of his career Wade will be inj the discussion. Then you would have
MJ
West
Kobe
Frazier
Wade


Iverson
Gervin
Clyde.

[jrong]

I don't always agree with ESPN, but that is pretty accurate. I'd switch Drexler and AI though and the last 3 I wouldn't know enough about to accurately gauge. I'd think that Wade is creeping into this list as well.

You have to look at when that article was published-- spring of 2008. Wade had just been shut down in the worst and most injury-plagued season of his career. The glow from the early years was completely gone. If that same article was published now, he'd make that list easily.


Also, I just have to say whenever I see Iverson's name included in discussions like this, it makes me feel like I'm about to lose my last meal. The only people who would offer AI's names in these topics are those that are blinded by scoring averages and are unconcerned with such insignificant items like efficient basketball play and, oh, winning....

[JtotheIzzo]

It has to be between West, Gerving, Drexler, McGrady and Bryant although im my opinion i would choose Adrian Dantley ..he would have owned the league playing that position. He owned the league offensively at the SF

you really are an idiot.

[JtotheIzzo]

:wtf:

Using that logic, I can make the argument that John Havlicek is the 2nd best SG ever.

you could actually say Mark Aguirre, since the Pistons traded Dantley for Aguirre and then won their first Championship with the bad Boys team.

[bdreason]

Jerry West.

[Sir Charles]

you really are an idiot.

Thats not fair man :rolleyes: :banghead: ...look i just said if Dantley played SG he would have owned almost as must a Jordan did. Dantlye played SF and this is what he achieved at 6`5 in that position.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dantlad01.html


19 years in the league:

Season

24.3 PPPG
54.0% FG!
81.8 FT
8.7 FTA PG (Defensive Attention? :rolleyes: Hell Yeah! :eek: )
15.8 FGA PG
5.7 RPG!
3.0 APG
1.0 SPG

Play-Offs

21.3 PPG
52.5 % FG
79.% FT
8.5 FTA PG (Defensive Attention? :rolleyes: Hell Yeah! :eek: )
5.4 RPG!
2.3 APG

In his Prime:

Offensive Rating

1977-78 NBA 116.3 (1)
1979-80 NBA 118.5 (4)
1980-81 NBA 118.5 (6)
1981-82 NBA 120.6 (5)
1983-84 NBA 125.6 (1)
1985-86 NBA 120.7 (7)
1986-87 NBA 121.0 (9)
1987-88 NBA 124.5 (4)
Career NBA 119.3 (9)
Career 119.3 (9)


Free Throw Attempts (Most Fouled Player)

1976-77 NBA 582 (5)
1977-78 NBA 680 (1)
1979-80 NBA 526 (10)
1980-81 NBA 784 (2)
1981-82 NBA 818 (2)
1983-84 NBA 946 (1)
1985-86 NBA 796 (1)
1986-87 NBA 664 (4)
1987-88 NBA 572 (8)
1988-89 NBA 568 (8)
Career NBA 8351 (10)
Career 8351 (11)

Player Efficiency Rating

1979-80 NBA 24.3 (3)
1980-81 NBA 24.3 (5)
1981-82 NBA 24.2 (3)
1983-84 NBA 24.6 (1) * When Bird, Magic, Moses, Kareem, Drexler etc where Around
1985-86 NBA 24.6 (2) * When MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Moses, Bird, Magic, Kareem etc was Around!
Career NBA 21.5 (33)
Career 21.5 (32)

PUT DANTLEY UNDER THESE SOFT RULES AND NO HANDCHECKING AT THE SG SPOT...and...except

30 PPG, 55-60'% FG, 12 FTA PG...!!!!!!!!!!!!

DANTLEY = MOST UNDERRATED PERIMTER PLAYER OF ALL TIME....

TOP 50 IMO...:confusedshrug:

TAKE A LOOK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmpDpEmMEFo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdO_3iW5QAA&feature=PlayList&p=64312E2D0AB3EFA1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1

[xx03xx]

kobe bryant.. not jerry west, west played in a lot weaker era.. while kobe playes with some of the best guys in the league (lebron, mj, pierce)
:cheers: :cheers:

[Bush4Ever]

This is where the debate gets sticky. IF you have West as a SG then you need to add Walt Frazier. Which would put him over everyone but maybe West and Kobe. By the end of his career Wade will be inj the discussion. Then you would have
MJ
West
Kobe
Frazier
Wade


Iverson
Gervin
Clyde.

Jerry West was better than Frazier, and this is coming from a huge Frazier fan.

In truth, positions were indeed not as splintered as they are now. I think they were simply referred to as guards, not PGs and SGs.

[plowking]

Thats not fair man :rolleyes: :banghead: ...look i just said if Dantley played SG he would have owned almost as must a Jordan did. Dantlye played SF and this is what he achieved at 6`5 in that position.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dantlad01.html


19 years in the league:

Season

24.3 PPPG
54.0% FG!
81.8 FT
8.7 FTA PG (Defensive Attention? :rolleyes: Hell Yeah! :eek: )
15.8 FGA PG
5.7 RPG!
3.0 APG
1.0 SPG

Play-Offs

21.3 PPG
52.5 % FG
79.% FT
8.5 FTA PG (Defensive Attention? :rolleyes: Hell Yeah! :eek: )
5.4 RPG!
2.3 APG

In his Prime:

Offensive Rating

1977-78 NBA 116.3 (1)
1979-80 NBA 118.5 (4)
1980-81 NBA 118.5 (6)
1981-82 NBA 120.6 (5)
1983-84 NBA 125.6 (1)
1985-86 NBA 120.7 (7)
1986-87 NBA 121.0 (9)
1987-88 NBA 124.5 (4)
Career NBA 119.3 (9)
Career 119.3 (9)


Free Throw Attempts (Most Fouled Player)

1976-77 NBA 582 (5)
1977-78 NBA 680 (1)
1979-80 NBA 526 (10)
1980-81 NBA 784 (2)
1981-82 NBA 818 (2)
1983-84 NBA 946 (1)
1985-86 NBA 796 (1)
1986-87 NBA 664 (4)
1987-88 NBA 572 (8)
1988-89 NBA 568 (8)
Career NBA 8351 (10)
Career 8351 (11)

Player Efficiency Rating

1979-80 NBA 24.3 (3)
1980-81 NBA 24.3 (5)
1981-82 NBA 24.2 (3)
1983-84 NBA 24.6 (1) * When Bird, Magic, Moses, Kareem, Drexler etc where Around
1985-86 NBA 24.6 (2) * When MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Moses, Bird, Magic, Kareem etc was Around!
Career NBA 21.5 (33)
Career 21.5 (32)

PUT DANTLEY UNDER THESE SOFT RULES AND NO HANDCHECKING AT THE SG SPOT...and...except

30 PPG, 55-60'% FG, 12 FTA PG...!!!!!!!!!!!!

DANTLEY = MOST UNDERRATED PERIMTER PLAYER OF ALL TIME....

TOP 50 IMO...:confusedshrug:

TAKE A LOOK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmpDpEmMEFo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdO_3iW5QAA&feature=PlayList&p=64312E2D0AB3EFA1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1


Like hell he would. He'd be forced into jumpshots just like any other wing player.

You could expect 25ppg on 48% shooting in his prime.


Look at Wade for example. Drives more then Dantley did and has a better mid range game. Yet only 49% from the field. There is no way a 6'5 SF would average near 60% in the league. :oldlol:

[zay_24]

jordan

[Duncan21formvp]

Seeing that Kobe only has 6 games of 40+ in the playoffs and Wade already has 5 games of 40+ in the playoffs and Iverson has 10 games of 40+ it is too tough to tell at this point. Especially considering West has 15 games of 40+

You really can't compare Kobe to any other legends until he gets 3 finals MVP's.

[branslowski]

Seeing that Kobe only has 6 games of 40+ in the playoffs and Wade already has 5 games of 40+ in the playoffs and Iverson has 10 games of 40+ it is too tough to tell at this point. Especially considering West has 15 games of 40+

So you are basing your choice off of 40pt games in the playoffs??:confusedshrug:

Also, shouldn't there be a limit to having multiple accounts? This guy has atleast 6...:oldlol: He also agree's with hiself in most of his threads....

[catch24]

Kobe by a mile, at least in MY opinion..

[branslowski]

Kobe by a mile, at least in MY opinion..

And a smart opinion it is....:cheers:

[zay_24]

AT this point Jerry west,,, many finals and he played at a high level too.. Not his fault his teammates choked.. His numbers in all facets are better than Kobe's and he never was given the ability to play with Wilt in his prime. Still Kobe if he wins two more titles and keeps playing at a high level takes this one for his ability to play and win titles...


AT this point Jerry west,,, many finals and he played at a high level too..
Yet kobe has been in more and he has more RINGS


His numbers in all facets are better than Kobe's
He only average 30 points twice,and 27 and up 5 times.


he never was given the ability to play with Wilt in his prime.SO he didnt have some great center dragging down his stats now did he?

[iTruWarrior]

Yet kobe has been in more and he has more RINGS


He only average 30 points twice,and 27 and up 5 times.

SO he didnt have some great center dragging down his stats now did he?
You are just helping my case that you are a tool. Kobe > Jordan, you are a joke. Thanks for picking Howard, so Yao's gotta be the better player.

[zay_24]

Jordan was the only one to win anything without a premier big man. West had an aged Wilt, though he was still dominate.

Really the only one to win anything without an elite big was Dumars. Those pistons teams were so well rounded, they were something special. 6 players averaging double figures and rodman a point away, not to mention there other fabulous role players. Though as much as I love Dumars, he's no where near the top 5.

1. MJ
2. Gervin
3. West
4. Kobe
5. Drexler

Really 2-5 is so close in this group, it's just personal preference who you put where. I feel the gap between this second tier (2-5) is pretty large to the next group that might include the likes of Pistol, Reggie, Iverson and others.When you have grant and rodman, who needs big men?

[zay_24]

Drexler is certainly better than Kobe. You have to consider how good the supporting cast of players are. Also, Drexler had to play against MJ so that makes it way tougher than the others had it.
You mean the guy that couldnt lead his team to a winning record without another all star on his team?

[iTruWarrior]

You mean the guy that couldnt lead his team to a winning record without another all star on his team?
:oldlol: Kinda reminds me of Kobe unable to get past the 1st round without Gasol and Shaq.

At least Drexler went to the Finals with Terry Porter as his 2nd best player.

[zay_24]

That wasn't kobes fault. His team was trash. Lamar Odom was a shell during those years, and he had smush parker,luke walton and kwame brown in the starting lineup.
Seriously, that team was flat out trash.

[iTruWarrior]

That wasn't kobes fault. His team was trash. Lamar Odom was a shell during those years, and he had smush parker,luke walton and kwame brown in the starting lineup.
Seriously, that team was flat out trash.
The so called GOAT SG would make them better like Jordan did/would.

You fail in simple words.

[zay_24]

MJ didn't make his teammates better.
MJ said this to phil jackson when he became the new coach and had them run the triangle:
"Ok, but if we start losing, Im shooting"
He was referring to an argument him and phil had about Mj needing to pass the ball more.
That's not someone who makes their team better.
Plus look at the stats,
Kobe without an allstart still managed to get a winning season twice
Mj without an allstar never got a winning season.

[LA_Showtime]

The so called GOAT SG would make them better like Jordan did/would.

You fail in simple words.

Kobe did make them better. Unfortunately, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown still couldn't do anything besides embarass themselves.

1. Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kobe, although I think he'll eventually pass Jerry West by the time his career is over.

[catch24]

Thats when stats are misleading - when people use them SOLELY to rank a player. Consider the competition WEST had (possessions as well) and the Kobe like numbers Clyde had. Whats funny is, Kobe has better all around production aka better PER, than Clyde did at this point in their careers (NBA years). Kobe > Clyde and the both of them > WEST by a mile.. When has Clyde ever averaged more than 30ppg on 48%, hell 28ppg on 50% in the playoffs as the first option with BETTER overall production?

Better than Kobe? Hell no. Close? Yes. :hammertime:

[branslowski]

:oldlol: Kinda reminds me of Kobe unable to get past the 1st round without Gasol and Shaq.

At least Drexler went to the Finals with Terry Porter as his 2nd best player.

I have nothing against you....but why do ppl who bash Kobe do that? It's like you pick and choose what Kobe should get credit for because it fit's your agenda...

He gets out of the first round..."Well, he had Shaq"
He gets out of the first round..."Well, he had Gasol"

My god, you guy's are a bunch of Stick's in a ass....:oldlol:

You mention that Kobe has 3rings...Basher-"NO NO NO, SHAQ BABY, I WANT TO SUCK SHAQ OFF AND KICK KOBE IN THE KNEE"....God...:confusedshrug:

[LA_Showtime]

Didn't a coach of Jordan's once say, "There's no I in Team." with Jordan responding, "Yeah, but there's an I in Win.":oldlol:

[Bush4Ever]

Mj without an allstar never got a winning season.

Jordan won a TITLE without an all-star. But thanks.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html

[zay_24]

WE all know fisher was the true leader of the Lakers.
With fisher-3 peat
when he left-first round exits
when he came back-make the finals, best record in the west 2 straight years.

LOLOLOL
sarcasm

[zay_24]

Jordan won a TITLE without an all-star. But thanks.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html
Pippen was an allstar player. Grant was good too.
Seriously, you put al jefferson and durant and marbury on the same team, and they win the finals, will you say Marbury was the best player just because the other two arent allstars?
Get real.

[catch24]

:oldlol: Kinda reminds me of Kobe unable to get past the 1st round without Gasol and Shaq.

At least Drexler went to the Finals with Terry Porter as his 2nd best player.

You do realize Drexler had 4 allstars (Duckworth, Porter, Ainge and Cliff Robinson) on his team not including himself right? :hammerhead: smh @ people not thinking before posting.

[Bush4Ever]

Pippen was an allstar player. Grant was good too.
Seriously, you put al jefferson and durant and marbury on the same team, and they win the finals, will you say Marbury was the best player just because the other two arent allstars?
Get real.

Neither Pippen nor Grant was an all-star in 1991. That's a cold, hard fact.

Don't make a lame attempt at deflection with psychotic babbling.

Own up to your mistake. You can't expect to be taken seriously if you can't admit a simple mistake.

[zay_24]

Jordan won a TITLE without an all-star. But thanks.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html
It's also funny how pippen had better stats and was a better defender than some of those allstars that year. Your point is irrevelant.

[Bush4Ever]

You do realize Drexler had 4 allstars (Duckworth, Porter, Ainge and Cliff Robinson) on his team not including himself right? :hammerhead: smh @ people not thinking before posting.

What on earth?

NONE of those players were all-stars in 1992.

Yes, Drexler had very solid talent around him, but don't make stuff up.

[catch24]

Jordan won a TITLE without an all-star. But thanks.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html

He was an allstar the year before, and in '91 he was still putting up "STAR" like numbers. Jordan is the GOAT, but lets be a little real dude.

[Bush4Ever]

It's also funny how pippen had better stats and was a better defender than some of those allstars that year. Your point is irrevelant.

No, it's not.

You said MJ never had a winning season without an all-star.

He in fact WON A TITLE without an all-star.

Your statement is factually incorrect.

Live with it.

Even your lame after-the-fact backpedaling is wrong.

Who is the all-star player on this winning team?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1989.html

How about this one?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1988.html

[catch24]

What on earth?

NONE of those players were all-stars in 1992.

Yes, Drexler had very solid talent around him, but don't make stuff up.

Making stuff up? They are allstar type players, their production doesn't lie. Just because they weren't that year doesn't mean he didn't have help. That's like saying Kobe didn't have any allstars last year, but Gasol's production was "allstar" like. :confusedshrug:

Gasol is an allstar this year FYI

[Bush4Ever]

He was an allstar the year before, and in '91 he was still putting up "STAR" like numbers. Jordan is the GOAT, but lets be a little real dude.

Say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't backpedal and expect me to overlook blatant LIES.

He also had two other very strong winning seasons with no teammate even in the realm of being an all-star.

You all caught it on the chin. Live with it, suck it up, and move on.

[iTruWarrior]

I have nothing against you....but why do ppl who bash Kobe do that? It's like you pick and choose what Kobe should get credit for because it fit's your agenda...

He gets out of the first round..."Well, he had Shaq"
He gets out of the first round..."Well, he had Gasol"

My god, you guy's are a bunch of Stick's in a ass....:oldlol:

You mention that Kobe has 3rings...Basher-"NO NO NO, SHAQ BABY, I WANT TO SUCK SHAQ OFF AND KICK KOBE IN THE KNEE"....God...:confusedshrug:
I'm actually a pretty big fan of Kobe, but this Zay guy who I think is KB24PAH is a flat out idiot, Honestly Kobe > Jordan, that's just dumb.

Jordan is much better Kobe and always will be. I think Kobe is the best player today, but he's far from the GOAT.

[zay_24]

Neither Pippen nor Grant was an all-star in 1991. That's a cold, hard fact.

Don't make a lame attempt at deflection with psychotic babbling.

Own up to your mistake. You can't expect to be taken seriously if you can't admit a simple mistake.
OK but here are pippens stats that year:
18ppg,7rpg,6apg,2spg
Here are some allstars that year that pippen had better numbers than:
Robert parish
15ppg,10rpg,0.8apg
Ricky Pierce
20ppg,2pg,2apg
Joe Dumars
20ppg,2rpg,5apg
Hersey Hawkins
22ppg,3rpg,3apg

Thats just the eastern team alone, so sorry bud you fail

[Bush4Ever]

Making stuff up? They are allstar type players, their production doesn't lie. Just because they weren't that year doesn't mean he didn't have help. That's like saying Kobe didn't have any allstars last year, but Gasol's production was "allstar" like. :confusedshrug:

Gasol is an allstar this year FYI

Yeah, Cliff, Ducks, and Ainge were doing gangbusters.

Cliff: 12 and 5 on 47 percent shooting
Ducks: 11 and 6 on 46 percent shooting
Ainge: 10 and 3 on 44 percent shooting


All-star quality? My ass.

You aren't fooling a single knowledgeable NBA fan with this crap. Just stop.

[Bush4Ever]

OK but here are pippens stats that year:
18ppg,7rpg,6apg,2spg
Here are some allstars that year that pippen had better numbers than:
Robert parish
15ppg,10rpg,0.8apg
Ricky Pierce
20ppg,2pg,2apg
Joe Dumars
20ppg,2rpg,5apg
Hersey Hawkins
22ppg,3rpg,3apg

Thats just the eastern team alone, so sorry bud you fail

Pippen wasn't an all-star. That's the end of the argument. The...end.

You made an erroneous claim. That's not a big deal, but you were factually wrong.

Even if you don't want to count 1991, you still have the other two seasons I mentioned to magically explain away in order to reinvent reality to your predetermined position.

Have fun with that..

[catch24]

Say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't backpedal and expect me to overlook blatant LIES.

He also had two other very strong winning seasons with no teammate even in the realm of being an all-star.

You all caught it on the chin. Live with it, suck it up, and move on.

Lmao @ this idiot. You sure aren't in love with faking some intelligence. Wait, weren't you the one that thought Joe D was Richard Dumas and wasn't I the one that corrected you?

Anyway, back to the point. I'm definitely not back pedaling, nice try though. I never said they were allstars that year, just saying that infact THEY WERE ALLSTARS. I'm not debating what he did the other two seasons, I was talking about the '92 FINALS appearance. I think you caught it in the ******, but maybe that's just me.

[zay_24]

Pippen wasn't an all-star. That's the end of the argument. The...end.

You made an erroneous claim. That's not a big deal, but you were factually wrong.

Even if you don't want to count 1991, you still have the other two seasons I mentioned to magically explain away in order to reinvent reality to your predetermined position.

Have fun with that..
It doesnt matter if he wasnt an allstar, he put up better numbers than several allstars.
I guess if you don't think Kevind Durant is an allstar caliber player either huh?

[Bush4Ever]

Lmao @ this idiot. You sure aren't in love with faking some intelligence. Wait, weren't you the one that thought Joe D was Richard Dumas and wasn't I the one that corrected you?

Anyway, back to the point. I'm definitely not back pedaling, nice try though. I never said they were allstars that year, just saying that infact THEY WERE ALLSTARS. I'm not debating what he did the other two seasons, I was talking about the '92 FINALS appearance. I think you caught it in the ******, but maybe that's just me.

Yes, and I admitted my mistake that I made because I misread a post. I didn't try and cover it up with backpedaling nonsense.

1. Jordan won a title without an actual all-star on his team.
2. Jordan had multiple winnings seasons without a player on his team approaching "all-star status"

As the saying goes, you have a right to your opinion, but not your own facts. And no amount of whining, crying, and backpedaling changes that.

[catch24]

Yeah, Cliff, Ducks, and Ainge were doing gangbusters.

Cliff: 12 and 5 on 47 percent shooting
Ducks: 11 and 6 on 46 percent shooting
Ainge: 10 and 3 on 44 percent shooting


All-star quality? My ass.

You aren't fooling a single knowledgeable NBA fan with this crap. Just stop.

Now go ahead and post their overall production aka PER aka OVERALL stats in the 91-92 playoffs. Thanks. Fact of the matter is they are GREAT players who were allstars. Pretty sure Terry Porter was AN ALLSTAR TYPE PG in the playoffs that year...but hey...maybe I'm wrong...ROFL

[Bush4Ever]

It doesnt matter if he wasnt an allstar, he put up better numbers than several allstars.
I guess if you don't think Kevind Durant is an allstar caliber player either huh?

If that is what you meant, say that. If you mean X....say X. Is that too much of a burden for you?

By the way, I am noticing how you are dodging the other two seasons, where Pippen and Grant were not even approaching all-star status, yet the Bulls won 50 games with Oakley as their second best player (probably) and 47 games the season after that, both winning seasons, which directly counters your previous claim (as does 1991, but we'll ignore that).

[zay_24]

Yes, and I admitted my mistake that I made because I misread a post. I didn't try and cover it up with backpedaling nonsense.

1. Jordan won a title without an actual all-star on his team.
2. Jordan had multiple winnings seasons without a player on his team approaching "all-star status"

As the saying goes, you have a right to your opinion, but not your own facts. And no amount of whining, crying, and backpedaling changes that.
Does it matter, pippen was better than several allstars that year and you know it, so it really doesn't matter.

[catch24]

Yes, and I admitted my mistake that I made because I misread a post. I didn't try and cover it up with backpedaling nonsense.

1. Jordan won a title without an actual all-star on his team.
2. Jordan had multiple winnings seasons without a player on his team approaching "all-star status"

As the saying goes, you have a right to your opinion, but not your own facts. And no amount of whining, crying, and backpedaling changes that.

Apparently you're in caveman mode. Pippen in the season and playoffs averaged a 20+per - includes 17 pts per game on a high fg%, and 20 with a high fg%. Pippen was an allstar type caliber player WHO MADE THE ALLSTAR GAME THE SEASON PRIOR. Again, who's backpedaling, whining, and changing their words up? Aren't you smart?

[zay_24]

If that is what you meant, say that. If you mean X....say X. Is that too much of a burden for you?

By the way, I am noticing how you are dodging the other two seasons, where Pippen and Grant were not even approaching all-star status, yet the Bulls won 50 games with Oakley as their second best player (probably) and 47 games the season after that, both winning seasons, which directly counters your previous claim (as does 1991, but we'll ignore that).
That's way better than the 06 Lakers roster, but yet they only beat them by 5 wins.

And I like how you talk shyt about me not answering every question, but you didnt answer every question I asked either.
Just face it, MJ wasn't a leader.
Sure he was the best player on the Bulls, but that doesnt make him a leader.

[branslowski]

If that is what you meant, say that. If you mean X....say X. Is that too much of a burden for you?

By the way, I am noticing how you are dodging the other two seasons, where Pippen and Grant were not even approaching all-star status, yet the Bulls won 50 games with Oakley as their second best player (probably) and 47 games the season after that, both winning seasons, which directly counters your previous claim (as does 1991, but we'll ignore that).

So basically, you are trying to make a point that discredit's Pippen's CLEAR importance to the Bull's winning titles?:confusedshrug:

MJ=never won a Title without Pippen....FACT

KB=Never Won a Title without Shaq......Fact

No wiggle room around none of them...

[Bush4Ever]

Now go ahead and post their overall production, per and stats in the 91-92 playoffs. Thanks. Fact of the matter is they are GREAT players who were allstars.

Okay...

Cliff: 11 and 4 on 46 percent shooting
Ducks 12 and 6 on 50 percent shooting
Ainge 11 and 2 on 48 percent shooting

All-stars quality? No.

They were very good ROLE players.

The 92 Blazers were carried by Drexler and Porter, with a little bit of Jerome Kersey mixed in, plus good contribution from ROLE players.

Look, no one in their right mind would say Drexler carried a talentless team in 1992, but the "he had 4 all-stars/all-star quality players" mentality is similarly flawed.

[branslowski]

Apparently you're in caveman mode. Pippen in the season and playoffs averaged a 20+per - includes 17 pts per game on a high fg%, and 20 with a high fg%. Pippen was an allstar type caliber player WHO MADE THE ALLSTAR GAME THE SEASON PRIOR. Again, who's backpedaling, whining, and changing their words up? Aren't you smart?

Exactly..:applause:

Why do MJ Nut Huggers do that? They deminish Pippen's importance to MJ actually winning title's....This is no shot at MJ, Every body needs somebody...unless your "The Dream"...

[zay_24]

Okay...

Cliff: 11 and 4 on 46 percent shooting
Ducks 12 and 6 on 50 percent shooting
Ainge 11 and 2 on 48 percent shooting

All-stars quality? No.

They were very good ROLE players.

The 92 Blazers were carried by Drexler and Porter, with a little bit of Jerome Kersey mixed in, plus good contribution from ROLE players.

Look, no one in their right mind would say Drexler carried a talentless team in 1992, but the "he had 4 all-stars/all-star quality players" mentality is similarly flawed.
LOL, damn near every player in the allstar game had better numbers than all three of them, how the hell are they allstar calibur?
Im sorry but 11 and 2 is not an allstar number

[Bush4Ever]

So basically, you are trying to make a point that discredit's Pippen's CLEAR importance to the Bull's winning titles?:confusedshrug:

MJ=never won a Title without Pippen....FACT

KB=Never Won a Title without Shaq......Fact

No wiggle room around none of them...


No, I am saying that Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991, and not "all-star quality" in 1989 or 1990, which all cuts against the original statement of MJ "never having a winning season without an all-star player".

All I did was correct a factually inaccurate statement(s). That's it. That is my only beef here.

I value Pippen quite highly, and probably more than the average fan.

[branslowski]

Okay...

Cliff: 11 and 4 on 46 percent shooting
Ducks 12 and 6 on 50 percent shooting
Ainge 11 and 2 on 48 percent shooting

All-stars quality? No.

They were very good ROLE players.

The 92 Blazers were carried by Drexler and Porter, with a little bit of Jerome Kersey mixed in, plus good contribution from ROLE players.

Look, no one in their right mind would say Drexler carried a talentless team in 1992, but the "he had 4 all-stars/all-star quality players" mentality is similarly flawed.

Question Bro, I dont want this to get lost in anything....Do you think Drexler is better than Kobe?

[catch24]

Okay...

Cliff: 11 and 4 on 46 percent shooting
Ducks 12 and 6 on 50 percent shooting
Ainge 11 and 2 on 48 percent shooting

All-stars quality? No.

They were very good ROLE players.

The 92 Blazers were carried by Drexler and Porter, with a little bit of Jerome Kersey mixed in, plus good contribution from ROLE players.

Look, no one in their right mind would say Drexler carried a talentless team in 1992, but the "he had 4 all-stars/all-star quality players" mentality is similarly flawed.

And what about Terry Porter and his overall production? Not STAR worthy? They (the 3 other players) might have not played allstar type basketball that year, but they were still and had the ability to BE ALLSTAR type players - Duckworth the previous year was an allstar as well as Porter. I never said that year - '92 - just saying...

[TheAnchorman]

Deron Williams and Carmelo Anthony weren't all-stars this year, but they are all-stars in my book.

[zay_24]

No, I am saying that Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991, and not "all-star quality" in 1989 or 1990, which all cuts against the original statement of MJ "never having a winning season without an all-star player".

All I did was correct a factually inaccurate statement(s). That's it. That is my only beef here.

I value Pippen quite highly, and probably more than the average fan.
WEll seeing as how in one of those seasons, pippen got(drumroll) 200 steals and 100 blocks(1 of 3 players to do that) I say he was pretty good.
Plus, if you consider an 12 and 6 player is a role palyer, how do you not consider pippen that year to be an allstar?You know, seeing as how pippen is vastly superior to him.

[branslowski]

No, I am saying that Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991, and not "all-star quality" in 1989 or 1990, which all cuts against the original statement of MJ "never having a winning season without an all-star player".

All I did was correct a factually inaccurate statement(s). That's it. That is my only beef here.

I value Pippen quite highly, and probably more than the average fan.

I understand....But still, Even if Pippen didn't go to a All-Star game in 91', he still was an All-Star Type player who ment alot to the Bull's success...Ala Gasol last year with Kobe...He wasn't an All-Star that year, but he was still a "All-Star" type player who was very important to the run....

[Shep]

2. oscar robertson
3. jerry west
4. kobe bryant
5. clyde drexler
6. allen iverson

[catch24]

No, I am saying that Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991, and not "all-star quality" in 1989 or 1990, which all cuts against the original statement of MJ "never having a winning season without an all-star player".

All I did was correct a factually inaccurate statement(s). That's it. That is my only beef here.

I value Pippen quite highly, and probably more than the average fan.

How was he not allstar worthy? hmmm? His overall stats look good to me..Pippen was that, and MJ did have help. Far from "winning it by himself"
MJ is GOAT, thats obvious, but cut the crap.

[Bush4Ever]

Apparently you're in caveman mode. Pippen in the season and playoffs averaged a 20+per - includes 17 pts per game on a high fg%, and 20 with a high fg%. Pippen was an allstar type caliber player WHO MADE THE ALLSTAR GAME THE SEASON PRIOR. Again, who's backpedaling, whining, and changing their words up? Aren't you smart?

That would be you.

1. Pippen was not an actual all-star in 1991. Fact.
2. Pippen was not all-star "quality" in 1989.
3. The Bulls had a winning season in 1989.
4. Pippen was not all-star "quality" in 1988.
5. The Bulls had a winning season in 1988.

6. The original statement I responded to was that MJ never had a winning season without an all-star player.


What do you disagree with here?

The original statement was clearly wrong, which is my only point in this thread.

[Bush4Ever]

Question Bro, I dont want this to get lost in anything....Do you think Drexler is better than Kobe?


I would probably take Kobe over Drexler.

I think I said in my first post in the thread that the only legit answers to the title question is Kobe or West.

[zay_24]

Saying MJ won the finals without an actual allstar is redudant seeing as Pippen had better stats than several allstars.

[catch24]

That would be you.

1. Pippen was not an actual all-star in 1991. Fact.
2. Pippen was not all-star "quality" in 1989.
3. The Bulls had a winning season in 1989.
4. Pippen was not all-star "quality" in 1988.
5. The Bulls had a winning season in 1988.

6. The original statement I responded to was that MJ never had a winning season without an all-star player.


What do you disagree with here?

The original statement was clearly wrong, which is my only point in this thread.

How am I back pedaling when I am debunking everything you are saying?

1. Pippen was an allstar prior to the '91 season. FACT
2. Pippen was putting up allstar numbers with PERS (production) over 20+ on great efficient scoring.
3. Pippen was allstar type caliber in 89. HENCE, him making the allstar game and once again, the overall STATS. That's a fact by the way. Loon.
4. No one is arguing that Pippen was an allstar in '88. At least not me.

This is fun, I do enjoy this.

[Bush4Ever]

How was he not allstar worthy? hmmm? His overall stats look good to me..Pippen was that, and MJ did have help. Far from "winning it by himself"
MJ is GOAT, thats obvious, but cut the crap.

Look a little bit more closely.

Who is the all-star player (real or your newly defined "all-star quality") on these teams besides Jordan? You really need to stretch yourself to make the claim for Pippen or anyone else, especially considering the competition at the time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1988.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1989.html

My claims are as follows:

1. Jordan won a ring without an actual all-star on his team. That is a fact and can't be disputed.

2. Aside from that, Jordan had multiple winning seasons, most obviously 88 and 89, where he had winning seasons without an all-star caliber teammate.

I'll leave it at that, unless I see something else to respond to.

Take it easy (seriously). :cheers:

[Bush4Ever]

And what about Terry Porter and his overall production? Not STAR worthy? They (the 3 other players) might have not played allstar type basketball that year, but they were still and had the ability to BE ALLSTAR type players - Duckworth the previous year was an allstar as well as Porter. I never said that year - '92 - just saying...

Can you point me to the post where I said Porter wasn't at that level of play?

I highlighted the particular players for a reason. I don't disagree that Porter was at a very high level for either the regular season or playoffs.

But Porter =/= "Four all-star caliber" teammates.

In 1992, Drexler had Porter (a good second option), Kersey (a good third option), and a very nice set of role players (Cliff, Ducks, Ainge). Very good talent, but nothing approaching having Drexler and 4 all-stars.

[zay_24]

So kobe also has two winning seasons with teams far less talented than jordans bulls, so I guess that would make Kobe the better leader.
And who cares if pippen wasnt an actual allstar?
WHo would you rather have, 91 pippen or 91 ricky pierce?
Exactly

[Bush4Ever]

Saying MJ won the finals without an actual allstar is redudant seeing as Pippen had better stats than several allstars.

Pippen was a very good player (all-star worthy) in 1991. I made a statement of fact using the quote provided (that I responded to).

But even if you want to switch the claim from actual all-star to all-star caliber players, you still have to explain 1988 and 1989. That is a much tougher sell (especially 1988), not to mention the time period in question and the factor being analyzed (winning) was in a much tougher era for Jordan than pretty much any other player in history.

[Bush4Ever]

I understand....But still, Even if Pippen didn't go to a All-Star game in 91', he still was an All-Star Type player who ment alot to the Bull's success...Ala Gasol last year with Kobe...He wasn't an All-Star that year, but he was still a "All-Star" type player who was very important to the run....

Of course. But that wasn't the initial claim.

But even if we want to switch the claim from actual all-star to "all-star caliber" player, you all still have a heck of a job explaining away the Bulls winning records in 1988 and 1989, both of whom featured Jordan and very little else in terms of "all-star caliber" players, especially relative to the era.

[catch24]

Look a little bit more closely.

Who is the all-star player (real or your newly defined "all-star quality") on these teams besides Jordan? You really need to stretch yourself to make the claim for Pippen or anyone else, especially considering the competition at the time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1988.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1989.html

My claims are as follows:

1. Jordan won a ring without an actual all-star on his team. That is a fact and can't be disputed.

2. Aside from that, Jordan had multiple winning seasons, most obviously 88 and 89, where he had winning seasons without an all-star caliber teammate.

I'll leave it at that, unless I see something else to respond to.

Take it easy (seriously). :cheers:

First of all, I don't need to stretch myself when you're opinions are tremendously uneducated.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1989.htm

1. Jordan won a ring with an allstar type player on his team - Pippen the year before. Averaging a 20+ per at allstar like scoring on high efficiency. This is a fact. You can dispute this, but you'll continue to dig yourself in a bigger black hole.

2. No one is arguing what winning seasons he has had. I thought we were talking about winning a ring with an allstar? In 89-90 Pippen had 200 steals and 100 blocks - once again overall great numbers with a GREAT PER with scoring - as redundant as I have been, it's the truth. He definitely deserved to be an allstar, and he was one. Truth.

As you to my comment, feel free to respond.

Put the PIPE DOWN :rant

[zay_24]

Pippen was a very good player (all-star worthy) in 1991. I made a statement of fact using the quote provided (that I responded to).

But even if you want to switch the claim from actual all-star to all-star caliber players, you still have to explain 1988 and 1989. That is a much tougher sell (especially 1988), not to mention the time period in question and the factor being analyzed (winning) was in a much tougher era for Jordan than pretty much any other player in history.
Jordan still had a pretty good cast. Oakley was still averaging 12 and 13.
I mean, 50 wins is good and all, but it's not a GREAT record.
He never had a winning season without pippen, and alot of people think Pippen was the true LEADER of the bulls.

[catch24]

Can you point me to the post where I said Porter wasn't at that level of play?

I highlighted the particular players for a reason. I don't disagree that Porter was at a very high level for either the regular season or playoffs.

But Porter =/= "Four all-star caliber" teammates.

In 1992, Drexler had Porter (a good second option), Kersey (a good third option), and a very nice set of role players (Cliff, Ducks, Ainge). Very good talent, but nothing approaching having Drexler and 4 all-stars.

Fact remains, two of them were allstars (Porter, Duckworth) one season PRIOR, one putting up allstar numbers in the playoffs (Porter) and all 4, in general, were at one point ALLSTARS.

[Bush4Ever]

So kobe also has two winning seasons with teams far less talented than jordans bulls, so I guess that would make Kobe the better leader.
And who cares if pippen wasnt an actual allstar?
WHo would you rather have, 91 pippen or 91 ricky pierce?
Exactly

I'm not even talking about this. Stop trying to spin this into a Kobe/MJ thing. For one thing, MJ crushes Kobe on pretty much all aspects of the game. That ship has sailed.

I'm simply saying Jordan has had a winning season without an actual all-star (that is an objective fact that cannot be argued), and also without an all-star caliber teammate.

[zay_24]

I'm not even talking about this. Stop trying to spin this into a Kobe/MJ thing. For one thing, MJ crushes Kobe on pretty much all aspects of the game. That ship has sailed.

I'm simply saying Jordan has had a winning season without an actual all-star (that is an objective fact that cannot be argued), and also without an all-star caliber teammate.
if it can't be argued than stop arguing about.:roll:

[TryToBeUnbias]

Fact remains two of them were allstar type players one season PRIOR, one putting up allstar numbers in the playoffs, and all 4, in general ALLSTARS.
this...

[Bush4Ever]

He never had a winning season without pippen,

Technically true, but very misleading.

I doubt Pippen's 8 and 4 in 1988 were a major factor for the Bulls.

And no, Jordan's teams were not really talented relative to the era (arguably the best ever) of basketball, until Pippen and Grant became of age.

[catch24]

this...

First post ever on ISH :rockon:

[zay_24]

Technically true, but very misleading.

I doubt Pippen's 8 and 4 in 1988 were a major factor for the Bulls.

And no, Jordan's teams were not really talented relative to the era (arguably the best ever) of basketball, until Pippen and Grant became of age.
Well that was his rookie year, what about when the bulls started collecting rings? Thats what matters, no one cares about a 50 win team that lost in the first round.

Here are some numbers(pippen vs jordan)
SP career minutes: 41069
MJ career minutes: 41013
(almost identical)

SP career assists: 6135
MJ career assists: 5633

SP career rebounds: 7494
MJ career rebounds: 6672

SP career blocks: 947
MJ career blocks: 893

[Bush4Ever]

Fact remains two of them were allstar type players one season PRIOR, one putting up allstar numbers in the playoffs, and all 4, in general ALLSTARS.

You keep changing your argument.

But let's examine this more closely with the four players mentioned:

1. I have already said Porter was a very good all-star quality player. No arguments there.

2. Duckworth was an all-star in 1991. True. However....
A. His scoring dropped FIVE points from his 1991 year to 1992.
B. His shooting percentage dropped to 46 percent from the floor. That is TERRIBLE for a big man.
C. As a center, he grabbed 6 rebounds per game. Not even close to what an all-star quality big man grabs.

3. Danny Ainge was an all-star FOUR years previous. He never put up all-star type production in 1992 during the regular season or playoffs. Show me where all of this great production was, if you please. He was a great veteran leader, a good ROLE player, but not even approaching all-star status at any point. Like I said before, 11 and 2 in the playoffs on good shooting numbers. That is an all-star to you? Be reasonable.

4. Ditto number 3 with Cliff Robinson. Made an all-star team two years AFTER 1992, but where is his supposed all-star production? List it....directly.

The 1992 Blazers had a great backcourt, athleticism galore, and outstanding team rebounding. That's why the won so much. Not because of Drexler and "four all-stars".

[takeittothehoop]

Kobe is 2nd by a mile. Add another championship to his resume and he should get serious consideration for no.1

[Bush4Ever]

Well that was his rookie year, what about when the bulls started collecting rings? Thats what matters, no one cares about a 50 win team that lost in the first round.


I care, because the original statement was MJ never had a winning season without an all-star....which I disproved.

Then the argument was switched to "all-star caliber teammate", which is why I brought up 1988. It directly disproves this new argument. 1989 does as well.

I'm not sure what you are attempting to prove with your stats. I wouldn't deny there was much of a difference between Jordan and Pippen on the rebounding, passing, and defensive parts of the game (if I had to pick I would say that Jordan was the better passer while Pippen the better rebounder and slightly better defender)

[zay_24]

Oakley wasnt an allstar calibur player?

[Bush4Ever]

Oakley wasnt an allstar calibur player?

Relative to the time? No.

I'm off to bed. Take it easy dude.

:D

[catch24]

You keep changing your argument.

But let's examine this more closely with the four players mentioned:

1. I have already said Porter was a very good all-star quality player. No arguments there.

2. Duckworth was an all-star in 1991. True. However....
A. His scoring dropped FIVE points from his 1991 year to 1992.
B. His shooting percentage dropped to 46 percent from the floor. That is TERRIBLE for a big man.
C. As a center, he grabbed 6 rebounds per game. Not even close to what an all-star quality big man grabs.

3. Danny Ainge was an all-star FOUR years previous. He never put up all-star type production in 1992 during the regular season or playoffs. Show me where all of this great production was, if you please. He was a great veteran leader, a good ROLE player, but not even approaching all-star status at any point. Like I said before, 11 and 2 in the playoffs on good shooting numbers. That is an all-star to you? Be reasonable.

4. Ditto number 3 with Cliff Robinson. Made an all-star team two years AFTER 1992, but where is his supposed all-star production? List it....directly.

The 1992 Blazers had a great backcourt, athleticism galore, and outstanding team rebounding. That's why the won so much. Not because of Drexler and "four all-stars".

LOL, where have I changed my argument? Are you dense?

Refer to this: "Fact remains, two of them were allstars (Porter, Duckworth) one season PRIOR, one putting up allstar numbers in the playoffs (Porter) and all 4, in general, were at one point ALLSTARS." They were players who had the ability to rise their game at an allstar LEVEL.

I never said they were ALL allstars in '92. But hey, to whomever said Clyde never had an allstar type player - Porter - that championship run is clearly misinformed.

[Aldridge Fan]

Yes I'm a Blazer fan but I'd say it in this order. MJ, Kobe, Drexler, then West.

All top three were in a more physical era and Kobe's game was so close to MJ's that I'd pick him over Drexler. Kobe hit the most unbelievable clutch shots back in the early 2000's and I saw this with my own eyes at the Rose Garden. But Drexler's third place makes me happy. He was special in his own way. Great player.

[catch24]

You keep changing your argument.

But let's examine this more closely with the four players mentioned:

1. I have already said Porter was a very good all-star quality player. No arguments there.

2. Duckworth was an all-star in 1991. True. However....
A. His scoring dropped FIVE points from his 1991 year to 1992.
B. His shooting percentage dropped to 46 percent from the floor. That is TERRIBLE for a big man.
C. As a center, he grabbed 6 rebounds per game. Not even close to what an all-star quality big man grabs.

3. Danny Ainge was an all-star FOUR years previous. He never put up all-star type production in 1992 during the regular season or playoffs. Show me where all of this great production was, if you please. He was a great veteran leader, a good ROLE player, but not even approaching all-star status at any point. Like I said before, 11 and 2 in the playoffs on good shooting numbers. That is an all-star to you? Be reasonable.

4. Ditto number 3 with Cliff Robinson. Made an all-star team two years AFTER 1992, but where is his supposed all-star production? List it....directly.

The 1992 Blazers had a great backcourt, athleticism galore, and outstanding team rebounding. That's why the won so much. Not because of Drexler and "four all-stars".

Considering Ainge's reduced minutes his PER was around 14 in the regular season and playoffs. Putting 50+ ast + 40 rebounds in that playoffs mind you with 10ppg. I've said countless times in this thread that he might have not been an Allstar that season, but was a great player (allstar type ability) and a key one at that.