Top 5 Power Forwards of all-time

[iTruWarrior]

1. Tim Duncan - Obvious choice, has the rings, never folded in the playoffs, Is one of the most consistent players to ever play the game

2. Karl Malone - Great numbers, play on both ends and was extremely consistent as well.

3. Charles Barkley - Offensive force, probably the best offensive power forward of all-time, but his poor defense puts him down here. Was capable of taking over games as well.

4. Kevin Garnett - One of the greatest defenders in the game, brings intensity and can anchor and make any defense better, His versaility is also devasting, his offensive ability was not that great compared to the guys above. Probably one of the best 2nd fiddles of all-time though.

5. Kevin McHale - Had one of the most refined post game of all-time, Also an extremely underrated defender, playing with Bird and Parish hurts him.

[west]

Didn't you just made the very same topic few weeks ago?:wtf:

[iTruWarrior]

Didn't you just made the very same topic few weeks ago?:wtf:
Not that I recall. :confusedshrug:


I guess nobody is interested in the past. :confusedshrug:

[ruslan]

Didn't you just made the very same topic few weeks ago?:wtf:

He's a troll with no life.

[Al Thornton]

Not that I recall. :confusedshrug:


I guess nobody is interested in the past. :confusedshrug:

You made a top 10 current PF thread a week ago.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Kevin McHale
5. Kevin Garnett

[iTruWarrior]

You made a top 10 current PF thread a week ago.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Kevin McHale
5. Kevin Garnett
:wtf: I'm pretty sure it was more than a week ago and I'm talking about all-time not currently.

Your list is exactly like mine except you have McHale over KG, care to explain why? I don't recall McHale playing on the Clippers.

[Shep]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Karl Malone
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Bob Pettit

[iTruWarrior]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Karl Malone
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Bob Pettit
KG Over Malone? I think you are pushing it and Dirk and Pettit over Barkley? Damn are you baiting Sir Charles? :oldlol:

Pettit's ERA is the thing that hurts for me, I didn't watch him play. But the Weak ERA is not a big excuse because Pettit is cleary a Top 10 power forward of all-time, just not sure about Top 5.

[Al Thornton]

:wtf: I'm pretty sure it was more than a week ago and I'm talking about all-time not currently.

Your list is exactly like mine except you have McHale over KG, care to explain why? I don't recall McHale playing on the Clippers.

Such a troll time to put on ignore. Sorry I don't agree with your opinion ******.

[Shep]

KG Over Malone? I think you are pushing it and Dirk and Pettit over Barkley?
yes, yes, and yes

Damn are you baiting Sir Charles?
all i'm doing is stating facts

Pettit's ERA is the thing that hurts for me, I didn't watch him play. But the Weak ERA is not a big excuse because Pettit is cleary a Top 10 power forward of all-time, just not sure about Top 5.
no, the 50s/60s wasn't a weak era at all, it was probably the toughest era to play professional basketball. the only thing going against pettit in this era was pace.

[Godfather]

All four of these guys (not a top 5 because McHale can't be compared to other 4) were amazing rebounders so I did not discuss that.

1) Tim Duncan: This is really not a question because he is the greatest winner from the PF position. The better question is..."is he a Powerforward or a Center?"

2) Kevin Garnett: I understand many will frown upon this, but Prime KG was the greatest passer from the PF position, hand in hand with Duncan as greatest defender, and one of the most offensively efficient players ever.

3) Karl Malone: He is an amazing offensive force who was part of the greatest pick and role tandem in history. The reason I do not have him over KG is because he played with the greatest pick and role PG ever (who he really benefited from), and wasn't at the level defensively that Prime KG was...

4) Charles Barkley: Sir Charles will be mad, but even though Barkley was one of the greatest offensive players from the PF position, his man to man defense left something to be desired.

edit: Pettit over Barkley? What are you on?

[Niquesports]

All four of these guys (not a top 5 because McHale can't be compared to other 4) were amazing rebounders so I did not discuss that.

1) Tim Duncan: This is really not a question because he is the greatest winner from the PF position. The better question is..."is he a Powerforward or a Center?"

2) Kevin Garnett: I understand many will frown upon this, but Prime KG was the greatest passer from the PF position, hand in hand with Duncan as greatest defender, and one of the most offensively efficient players ever.

3) Karl Malone: He is an amazing offensive force who was part of the greatest pick and role tandem in history. The reason I do not have him over KG is because he played with the greatest pick and role PG ever (who he really benefited from), and wasn't at the level defensively that Prime KG was...

4) Charles Barkley: Sir Charles will be mad, but even though Barkley was one of the greatest offensive players from the PF position, his man to man defense left something to be desired.

edit: Pettit over Barkley? What are you on?

Anyone that has saw,read,or just listened to knowledgeable people would not find saying Pettit over Barkley a bad thing. Where is Elvin Hayes?

[ruslan]

If you think Dirk is better than Charles, you're a ****ing tard.

[Godfather]

Anyone that has saw,read,or just listened to knowledgeable people would not find saying Pettit over Barkley a bad thing. Where is Elvin Hayes?

In that second tier.

Break down Pettit's game explaining how it is better than Barkley's...I don't think you can.

[Sir Charles]

1-CHARLES BARKLEY: 6`4 3/4 ft (284-252, 265 lbs mostly)

"Multi-Positional" PF (Bird and Magic..examples)

- Most Talented PF of All Time

- Greatest Offensive Skill Wise Powerforward of All Time by Miles

- Shot 58.13% for his Season Career on 21.6 PPG and 55.13....2-Point FG% for his Play-Off Career on 22.5 PPG...Shows You How Unstoppable He Really Was in his Prime.

- Most All Around Skilled Offensive PF of All Time: Second Best "Post Player" at the PF Spot Ever (after McHale), Best "Fadeaway Shooter", Best "Off The Dribble 1 on 1 Player Scorer", Best "Spin Moves Ever" (Precusor of Shaq`s Black Tornados), Great "Mid Range Shooter", Best Ballhandling and Most Famous for his "Coast to Coasts" Dunks and Passes like no other PF.

- Most Unstoppable Offensively PF of All Time as Whole

*Most Doubled Teamed and Sometimes Tripled Teamed Player of the Late 80s and Early 90s by Help of Perimeter Players

*Player that Created Most Ilegal Defenses of the Late 80s and Early 90ss

- Second Most Skilled "Offensive Post Player"
- Better "Rebounder" than Tim and Karl
- Better "Passer" than Tim and Karl
- Second Best Assiter (but he was the one most doubled teamed and that recieved most defensive rotations)
- Best "Game Creator" at the PF Spot Ever! (Ballhandling and Guard Instincts)
- Bestr Floor Defender at the PF Spot Ever!
- Highest SPG Avg than Any Other PF Ever!
- Fourth or Fifth Post Best Post Defender
- Superior Shot Blocker than Karl...
- Clutch Play: Along Wilt Chamberlain the Players with Most 40 Pts and 20 Rbd games in Play-Offs History Per Game Played.
- Intimidation: Best of All Pfs Ever!
- Athletically:

1st Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time! by Far!
1st Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Strongest As a Finisher (Malone 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1
1st Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Most Agil (Garnett 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Leaper of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th in Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time


* TOP 5 STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* TOP 10 EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* TOP 9 SEAON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* TOP 8 PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Flaws:

-Lazy on Post Defense in the Beggining of the Game
-Excesive 3-Point FGAs
-Off Court Indiscipline and Work Ethics

Team Flaws:

*Weak Supporting Cast after Moses left Phily beyond 86 (Aging Team, Julius 34-37 years old). No Interior Defending Help (No Eaton, No Robinson) and The Game was Not Designed for Him Initially in Phily.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2-Tim Duncan: 6`11 3/4 ft (248-260 lbs)

CF

- Best "Interior Defending" PF of All Time
- Fourth Best "Offensive Impact" PF of All Time
- Third Best "Offensive Skillwise" PF of All Time (Barkley and McHale are 1st and 2nd): Great Ballhandler for his 6`11 3/4 ft frame and Second or Third Best 1 on 1 Offensive Game PF of All Time
-Third Most Skilled Post PF of All Time
- Fourth "Most Unstoppable" PF of All Time as Whole
- Fourth "Most Unstoppable in the "Open Floor"
- Second or Third Best "Rebounder" of the Top 5 PFs (Barkley 1st)
- Third Best "Offensive Post Player" of the Top 5 PFs (McHale and Barkley are 1st and 2nd)
- Best "Shot Blocker" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- 3rd Best Assister
- Good Game Creator and Passer for his Height
- Second Best Clutch PF of All Time
- Fourth Most Intimidating
- Athletically:

4th Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Most Agil (Garnett 1st)
4th Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time

* TOP 18 STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* TOP 18 EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* TOP 7 SEAON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* TOP 4 PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Flaws:

-Weak Floor Defender (Too Slow)
-Not Intimidating Enough
-Not Very Athletic

Team Flaws:

- None

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3- Karl Malone: 6`9 ft (257-270 lbs)

Classical PF

- Most "Unstoppable" In The "Open Floo"r of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Second "Most Unstoppalbe" PF of All Time as Whole
- Third Best "Offensive Impact" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Fourth Best "Offensive Skill Wise" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time: Third Best Mid Range Shot and 4th Best Offensive 1 on 1 PF of All Time...Usually lived off Fadeaways and Finishest (Pick and Rolls, Fast Breaks)
- Fourth Best "Offensive Post Player" of the Top 5 PFs (McHale and Barkley are 1st and 2nd, Duncan 3rd)
-Third Best Mid Range Shooter of the Top 5 PFs of All Time (Barkley and McHale 1st and 2nd)
- Second Best "Fadeaway Shooter" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time (Barkley 1st)
- Third Best "Rebounder"
- Third Best "Floor Defender"
- Second Highest SPG Avg from the PF Spot of All Time
- Second Best "FT Shooter" of of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Third Best Passing PF of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Thir Best Assister
- Above Average Game Creator
- Second Most Intimidating
- Athletically:

2nd Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Most Agil (Garnett 1st, Barkley 2nd) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time

* TOP 16 STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* TOP 17 EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* TOP 12 SEAON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* TOP 29 PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Flaws:

- Offensively Skillwise Lacking for his 1st Years (Average Ball Handler for a PF, Hard Time Designign his Own Shot Initially before Developing his Fadeaway)
- Not a Great Shot Blocker
- Not a Clutch Player
- Not The Highest of B-Ball IQs

Team Flaws:

-Needed More "Multi-Positional" Player Types (since he and Stockton where not: they where pure PFs and PGs)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4-Kevin Garnett: 7`0 (220-237 lbs)

Semi "Multi Positional" SF/PF

- Best "All Around Defensive" PF of All Time!
- Third Best Interior Defender PF of All Time
- Fifth Best "Offensive Impact" PF of All Time
- Fifth "Most Unstoppable" PF of All Time
- Third Best "Offensive Skillwise" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time: Ballhandling, Passing Game, Agility, Speed, Quickness, Potence and 7`0 frame helped create missmatches: 4th Best Mid Range Shot and Second or Third in 1 on 1 Offensive Game Siutations of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
-Third Best "Finisher" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Fifth Best "Offensive Post Player" of the Top 5 PFs
- Second or Third Best Rebounder of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Second Best Passing Game
- Best Assiter due to Missmatches
- Great Game Creator
- Third Most Intimidating
- Athletically:

3rd Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Most Agil (Garnett 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time


Flaws:

- Lacking Offensive Impact
- Unclutch Offensively
- No Real Post Game

Team Flaws:

-Weak Casts all his Life untill Boston

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kevin McHale: 6`10 ft (225-240 lbs)

FC

- Most "Skilled Offensive Post Play PF" of All Time
- 2nd Best "Interior Defender" PF of All Time
- 2nd Best "Offensive Impact" PF of All Time
- 4th "Most Unstoppable" PF of All Time
- Fifth "Offensive Skillwise" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time: Lacking Ballhandling, Lacking Passing Game, Average Agility, Lacking Speed, Lacking Quickness and Lacking Potence...Lived Off the Post : but thats ok becaue he is the Second in "Offensive Impact" , "Most Skilled Post Player" PF of All Time and had the Second Best Mid Range Shot *Im his Prime 1st)
- Fifth "Finisher" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Best FT Shooter of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Fifth Third Best Rebounder of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Fifth Passing Game of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Fifth Assiter Missmatches of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Fifth Game Creator of of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Third Most Clutch (Prooven in the Finals!)
- Athletically:

5th Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Most Agil (Garnett 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time (8 ft Wingspam!)

* STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* SEASON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Can`t Be Masured because he Played in an Era of Great Stacked Up Teams: He was Second or Third Offensive Fiddle Up Untill the 1985-86 Season. Parish Top 5 C of the Early 80s, Bird 1st or 2nd Best SF of the 80s, DJ Top 5 Best PGs of the Early 80s etc

Flaws:

-Weak Floor Defender (too slow)
-Not Very Athletic
-Not A Great Rebounder or Passer
-Not an Intimidator

Team Flaws:

Absolutley None!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barkley is the Only Player to be in Top 10 in Statistical +/-, EFF and PER....

Barkley = Greatest PF of All Time :confusedshrug:

[White Chocolate]

Duncan
Barkley
Malone
Garnett
McHale

[catzhernandez]

1-CHARLES BARKLEY: 6`4 3/4 ft (284-252, 265 lbs mostly)

"Multi-Positional" PF (Bird and Magic..examples)

- Most Talented PF of All Time

- Greatest Offensive Skill Wise Powerforward of All Time by Miles

- Shot 58.13% for his Season Career on 21.6 PPG and 55.13....2-Point FG% for his Play-Off Career on 22.5 PPG...Shows You How Unstoppable He Really Was in his Prime.

- Most All Around Skilled Offensive PF of All Time: Second Best "Post Player" at the PF Spot Ever (after McHale), Best "Fadeaway Shooter", Best "Off The Dribble 1 on 1 Player Scorer", Best "Spin Moves Ever" (Precusor of Shaq`s Black Tornados), Great "Mid Range Shooter", Best Ballhandling and Most Famous for his "Coast to Coasts" Dunks and Passes like no other PF.

- Most Unstoppable Offensively PF of All Time as Whole

*Most Doubled Teamed and Sometimes Tripled Teamed Player of the Late 80s and Early 90s by Help of Perimeter Players

*Player that Created Most Ilegal Defenses of the Late 80s and Early 90ss

- Second Most Skilled "Offensive Post Player"
- Better "Rebounder" than Tim and Karl
- Better "Passer" than Tim and Karl
- Second Best Assiter (but he was the one most doubled teamed and that recieved most defensive rotations)
- Best "Game Creator" at the PF Spot Ever! (Ballhandling and Guard Instincts)
- Bestr Floor Defender at the PF Spot Ever!
- Highest SPG Avg than Any Other PF Ever!
- Fourth or Fifth Post Best Post Defender
- Superior Shot Blocker than Karl...
- Clutch Play: Along Wilt Chamberlain the Players with Most 40 Pts and 20 Rbd games in Play-Offs History Per Game Played.
- Intimidation: Best of All Pfs Ever!
- Athletically:

1st Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time! by Far!
1st Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Strongest As a Finisher (Malone 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1
1st Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Most Agil (Garnett 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Leaper of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th in Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time


* TOP 5 STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* TOP 10 EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* TOP 9 SEAON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* TOP 8 PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Flaws:

-Lazy on Post Defense in the Beggining of the Game
-Excesive 3-Point FGAs
-Off Court Indiscipline and Work Ethics

Team Flaws:

*Weak Supporting Cast after Moses left Phily beyond 86 (Aging Team, Julius 34-37 years old). No Interior Defending Help (No Eaton, No Robinson) and The Game was Not Designed for Him Initially in Phily.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2-Tim Duncan: 6`11 3/4 ft (248-260 lbs)

CF

- Best "Interior Defending" PF of All Time
- Fourth Best "Offensive Impact" PF of All Time
- Third Best "Offensive Skillwise" PF of All Time (Barkley and McHale are 1st and 2nd): Great Ballhandler for his 6`11 3/4 ft frame and Second or Third Best 1 on 1 Offensive Game PF of All Time
-Third Most Skilled Post PF of All Time
- Fourth "Most Unstoppable" PF of All Time as Whole
- Fourth "Most Unstoppable in the "Open Floor"
- Second or Third Best "Rebounder" of the Top 5 PFs (Barkley 1st)
- Third Best "Offensive Post Player" of the Top 5 PFs (McHale and Barkley are 1st and 2nd)
- Best "Shot Blocker" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- 3rd Best Assister
- Good Game Creator and Passer for his Height
- Second Best Clutch PF of All Time
- Fourth Most Intimidating
- Athletically:

4th Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Most Agil (Garnett 1st)
4th Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time

* TOP 18 STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* TOP 18 EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* TOP 7 SEAON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* TOP 4 PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Flaws:

-Weak Floor Defender (Too Slow)
-Not Intimidating Enough
-Not Very Athletic

Team Flaws:

- None

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3- Karl Malone: 6`9 ft (257-270 lbs)

Classical PF

- Most "Unstoppable" In The "Open Floo"r of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Second "Most Unstoppalbe" PF of All Time as Whole
- Third Best "Offensive Impact" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Fourth Best "Offensive Skill Wise" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time: Third Best Mid Range Shot and 4th Best Offensive 1 on 1 PF of All Time...Usually lived off Fadeaways and Finishest (Pick and Rolls, Fast Breaks)
- Fourth Best "Offensive Post Player" of the Top 5 PFs (McHale and Barkley are 1st and 2nd, Duncan 3rd)
-Third Best Mid Range Shooter of the Top 5 PFs of All Time (Barkley and McHale 1st and 2nd)
- Second Best "Fadeaway Shooter" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time (Barkley 1st)
- Third Best "Rebounder"
- Third Best "Floor Defender"
- Second Highest SPG Avg from the PF Spot of All Time
- Second Best "FT Shooter" of of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Third Best Passing PF of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Thir Best Assister
- Above Average Game Creator
- Second Most Intimidating
- Athletically:

2nd Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Most Agil (Garnett 1st, Barkley 2nd) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time

* TOP 16 STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* TOP 17 EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* TOP 12 SEAON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* TOP 29 PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Flaws:

- Offensively Skillwise Lacking for his 1st Years (Average Ball Handler for a PF, Hard Time Designign his Own Shot Initially before Developing his Fadeaway)
- Not a Great Shot Blocker
- Not a Clutch Player
- Not The Highest of B-Ball IQs

Team Flaws:

-Needed More "Multi-Positional" Player Types (since he and Stockton where not: they where pure PFs and PGs)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4-Kevin Garnett: 7`0 (220-237 lbs)

Semi "Multi Positional" SF/PF

- Best "All Around Defensive" PF of All Time!
- Third Best Interior Defender PF of All Time
- Fifth Best "Offensive Impact" PF of All Time
- Fifth "Most Unstoppable" PF of All Time
- Third Best "Offensive Skillwise" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time: Ballhandling, Passing Game, Agility, Speed, Quickness, Potence and 7`0 frame helped create missmatches: 4th Best Mid Range Shot and Second or Third in 1 on 1 Offensive Game Siutations of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
-Third Best "Finisher" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Fifth Best "Offensive Post Player" of the Top 5 PFs
- Second or Third Best Rebounder of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Second Best Passing Game
- Best Assiter due to Missmatches
- Great Game Creator
- Third Most Intimidating
- Athletically:

3rd Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Most Agil (Garnett 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time


Flaws:

- Lacking Offensive Impact
- Unclutch Offensively
- No Real Post Game

Team Flaws:

-Weak Casts all his Life untill Boston

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kevin McHale: 6`10 ft (225-240 lbs)

FC

- Most "Skilled Offensive Post Play PF" of All Time
- 2nd Best "Interior Defender" PF of All Time
- 2nd Best "Offensive Impact" PF of All Time
- 4th "Most Unstoppable" PF of All Time
- Fifth "Offensive Skillwise" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time: Lacking Ballhandling, Lacking Passing Game, Average Agility, Lacking Speed, Lacking Quickness and Lacking Potence...Lived Off the Post : but thats ok becaue he is the Second in "Offensive Impact" , "Most Skilled Post Player" PF of All Time and had the Second Best Mid Range Shot *Im his Prime 1st)
- Fifth "Finisher" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Best FT Shooter of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Fifth Third Best Rebounder of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Fifth Passing Game of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Fifth Assiter Missmatches of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Fifth Game Creator of of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Third Most Clutch (Prooven in the Finals!)
- Athletically:

5th Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Most Agil (Garnett 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time (8 ft Wingspam!)

* STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* SEASON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Can`t Be Masured because he Played in an Era of Great Stacked Up Teams: He was Second or Third Offensive Fiddle Up Untill the 1985-86 Season. Parish Top 5 C of the Early 80s, Bird 1st or 2nd Best SF of the 80s, DJ Top 5 Best PGs of the Early 80s etc

Flaws:

-Weak Floor Defender (too slow)
-Not Very Athletic
-Not A Great Rebounder or Passer
-Not an Intimidator

Team Flaws:

Absolutley None!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barkley is the Only Player to be in Top 10 in Statistical +/-, EFF and PER....

Barkley = Greatest PF of All Time :confusedshrug:
:applause:

How do people hate this poster?

Sure Sir Charles can go overboard with his man crush on Barkley, but Christ, look at all of this info he's posting, and the effort he puts in to every single post.

You're awesome man. Nice post.

[JtotheIzzo]

1-Duncan
2(tie)-Barkley
2(tie)-Malone
4-Garnett
5-Sam Perkins (woot woot!)

[mattevans11]

:roll: funny how sir charles has that list somewhere to cut and paste into this topic that comes up at least once a month.

well done sir,

1. barkley
2. duncan
3 malone






345ish. dirk (get real)

[Sir Charles]

Thanks for your support...:applause: :cheers:

Forgot to put Garnett`s EFF, PER and Statistical +/- but he is around Malone level...so for Greatest PF Ever its realy only:

Barkley and Duncan... in the a contest (believe it idiot kids who hate on Barkley because you saw the NBA Post 1996!)

My job is to erase this constant underrating done on Barkley over the years...through clear evidence (EFF, PER and Statiscal +/- and Sorrunding Casts say I am righ)...and remined iditos of today! especially kids that did not watch the NBA before 1996= how much better Barkley was than people think becaase they saw a 1996-2000 back crippled and fat-aged Barkley not the one before....:no:

Malone better than Barkley? :roll: Almost laughable...to me.. There is simpley no aspect other than FT Shooting in which he was better :confusedshrug: ...While Barkley was Clearly at 95% of All other Aspects Better. I saw them both play IN THEIR PRIMES and between ages 22 and 32...it was no contest!!!. Yes no Contest!.

Barkley did not take care of his body = True but that has nothing to do with a players impact or skills. So after the 1995-96 season Malone took over....but lets not forget what we all saw before :rant . Hard for Jazz fans ofcourse:oldlol: ...but i understand in the same way Charles was hated and envied during his Prime (because he was simply just god-like and did not suck up to anyone!) :applause:

[Brunch@Five]

Dirk is better than McHale. I don't recall McHale ever actually leading a team as a #1 option and excelling :confusedshrug:

[Lebron23]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Karl Malone
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Bob Pettit
6. Willis Reed
7. Elvin Hayes
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Bob Mcadoo
10. Kevin Mchale/Jerry Lucas

[Horatio33]

Sir Charles, if barkley is better than a guy who has led his team to 4 titles, where are barkley's rings?

also you said duncan had no team flaws. check the rosters and watch the first 2 title teams. Parker was subbed for SPEEDY CLAXTON in fourth quarters in 2003 because parker couldnt cope then. manu wasnt a prime time player yet. 1999 roster shows how duncan dragged that team to the title.

[zabuza666]

So how's Barkley's defense going?

[Sir Charles]

Barkley is the Only PF there to be in Top 10 in Statistical +/-, EFF and PER....that has to say more than just something :confusedshrug: .... in the same way Lebron James has been seen as the Best By Many (None Kobe Groupies) as the Best over the Last 2-3 Years....and Again this Year...

Strangely enough...when everyone talks about the All Time Greats: Wilt, Jabbar, Russel, Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Dr J, Magic, Baylor, Big O...They Usually if not ALWAYS!!! Appear Atleast in 1-2 of These 3 Categories: Top of EFF, PER and Statistical +/-.....

mmm lets think..:wtf:

But...If its Barkley....Yes the undersized fat PF that talks alot and makes people pissed, happy or sometimes a simple :applause: would be nice...then :no: :no: no no no :rant :rant :rant ....he can`t be there!!! he can`t!!!

Even though the people who saw his impact LIVE ON T.V had warned that IT WAS THAT WAY! (even those who hated him deep with in accepted that and Always Shut There Mouths)...and ofcourse Yes :rolleyes: !!! They where Happy that he could no longer play after 1996

Barkley is The Best PF Ever. Get that Straight...If you wan`t to make an Argument on Duncan yes..but Malone? Get Real! :sleeping

[Horatio33]

i used to love charles barkley until sir charles over the top posts about how great he is. read Breaking The Rules, it paints a picture of a lazy, uninterested player, kinda like most off his career.

we know barkley is underrated, was undersized, had great PER. check this. they never had PER until the last couple of years. before then, we ranked players on how they played and their points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals. apart from youtube, have you ever watched games with barkley involved? i dont see it, otherwise you would stop using stats all the time and how players play. like bird's craftyness, magic's out of this world vision, duncan's consistancy, moses' relentlessness and russell and jordan's will to win. most times it comes down to more than stats.

so on paper barkley's career 22.1 ppg, 11.7rpg, 3.9ast and 0.8blk on .541%fg will look better than duncan's stats 21.4ppg, 11.7rpg, 3.2ast and 2.4blk on .507%fg that will decline over the next few years, but can you messure leadership? barkley coming into training camp overweight, legal troubles, and too honest personality that could hurt teammates or duncan's lack of controversy, quiet leadership and how his teammates respect him.

sorry bout the rant and lack of focus, im just sick of sir charles eroding my love for barkley

[Sir Charles]

i used to love charles barkley until sir charles over the top posts about how great he is. read Breaking The Rules, it paints a picture of a lazy, uninterested player, kinda like most off his career.

we know barkley is underrated, was undersized, had great PER. check this. they never had PER until the last couple of years. before then, we ranked players on how they played and their points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals. apart from youtube, have you ever watched games with barkley involved? i dont see it, otherwise you would stop using stats all the time and how players play. like bird's craftyness, magic's out of this world vision, duncan's consistancy, moses' relentlessness and russell and jordan's will to win. most times it comes down to more than stats.

I watched Barkley live almost every week from 1991 to 96 (said the Suns would make it to the finals in 93 even before the season started against all odds...right when Charles got traded, also preceeded Hakeem`s Domination over D-Rob in 95 before the series started etc)....then eventually from 1997-98...cause i knew he couldn`t even play anymore so i stopped watching the NBA..except for the play-offs. I never watched his retirment either

so on paper barkley's career 22.1 ppg, 11.7rpg, 3.9ast and 0.8blk on .541%fg will look better than duncan's stats 21.4ppg, 11.7rpg, 3.2ast and 2.4blk on .507%fg that will decline over the next few years, but can you messure leadership? barkley coming into training camp overweight, legal troubles, and too honest personality that could hurt teammates or duncan's lack of controversy, quiet leadership and how his teammates respect him.

So? I don`t mind Duncan`s stats they are asoume any how in my opinion Duncan is the Smartest Player in the NBA right now and Top 5 (better than Kobe still)....if Barkley had a a Guard like Stockton: Unselfish that though Team 1st and Exploit the Best Offensive Weapon CHucks PPG and FG% would have been higher...and if he had D-Rob inside the Paint or Mark Eaton he would have gotten interior help and wouldn`t have had to destroyed his back and energy so much...

sorry bout the rant and lack of focus, im just sick of sir charles eroding my love for barkley

Sorry man but i am sick (over a decade now) of idiots saying Malone was Better which is false...i saw them both in their primes and ill agree with a 1996-2000 Malone better but not before...and others who don`t agree with me either hate Chuck = Most of the NBA and Fans Back Then ..or ar Jazz Fans (totally acceptable)

My job is to expose the underrating of Sir Charles.

It has been a constant through this decade...so i make my points and very few can rival me because they know im right most of the time! but then the hating on Sir Charles (promoted since the late 80s) stars...and they say no no no it can`t be

YES IT CAN!
YES IT WAS!

[Dasher]

Bob Petit and Elvin Hayes should be in the top 5.

[miles berg]

1. Tim Duncan
2a. Charles Barkley
2b. Karl Malone
4a. Kevin Garnett
4b. Dirk Nowitzki

[Shep]

If you think Dirk is better than Charles, you're a ****ing tard.
nowitzki has had a much better career than barkley

[White Chocolate]

nowitzki has had a much better career than barkley


Don't get Sir Charles started.

[GP_20]

I'd love to see Sir Charles vs. Shep :oldlol:


One is a repetitive blind stat whore who is just plain stupid. The other guy is just mentally challenged and extremely arrogant. Both are almost always wrong, but Shep more so. (In this case)

[brandonislegend]

1. Tim Duncan

all that matters is #1.

[iTruWarrior]

I'd love to see Sir Charles vs. Shep :oldlol:


One is a repetitive blind stat whore who is just plain stupid. The other guy is just mentally challenged and extremely arrogant. Both are almost always wrong, but Shep more so. (In this case)
Yep, and I would say Sir Charles wins because he at least backs up his claims with stats. Shep is a blind David Robinson homer who uses nothing but his opinion.

Sir charles wins.

[Sir Charles]

Dirk is a pathetic Rebounder for a 7ter, Passer, Below Average Efficeincy Scorer for a 7ter and ofcourse a Poor Defender etc..... compared to Barkley :roll:

Dirk has shot 50% once his whole career ! :roll:

Barkley is the Only Player in the Top 10 EFF, PER and Statistical +/-... :bowdown:

Look at the players in the Top in Those Stats Categories and since they don`t recieve underrating then you agree and applaude :applause: but when its Barkley :no: ...you don`t. :oldlol: :hammerhead:

Barkley is the Best PF of All Time: Impact Wise and All Around Wise...

Stats don`t lie...

[eliteballer]

No order:

Pettit
Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Hayes


I consider Duncan a center

[Shep]

bla per bla efficiency bla shut up.

dirk actually deserved his mvp, barkley wasn't even top 2 most valuable in 1993. nowitzki has also been top 3 mvp in 2003, top 2 in 2005, and top 4 in 2006. besides 1993 the only season where barkley was anywhere close to the top of the mvp standings was 1986 when he was third.

the result of having barkley sometimes did more bad than it did good, this was proven by the sixers trading him for guys they didn't even want, and the suns eventually doing the same thing.

barkley got to play alongside some all time greats like moses malone, julius erving, maurice cheeks, kevin johnson, hakeem olajuwon, clyde drexler, and scottie pippen, yet he didn't win a championship. how many all time greats has nowitzki played with?

nowitzki has played 839 games out of a possible 870 in his career, or 96%. barkley played 1073 out of 1280, or 84%.

barkley was drafted to a sixers team that was 2 years removed from a championship, and a 52 win team the season prior to his rookie year. 3 years after he arrived they were in the lottery. what happened next? barkley cried and got traded.

barkley was traded to a suns team that was coming off a 53 win season, and a conference semi finals appearance. are you telling me the difference between charles barkley and jeff hornacek is 9 wins? :lol . in barkley's last year as a sun, his team finished with a .500 record :roll: . what happened next? barkley cried and got traded.

barkley was traded to a rockets team that was 2 seasons removed from a championship, and already boasting the second best center in the nba, and the second best shooting guard in the nba. surely adding a top 3 power forward to this team would result in a championship? surely? :cry:

nowitzki was drafted to a franchise that had won more than 28 games on one occasion over the last 8 years of its existence, including seasons of 11 wins, 13 wins, 20 wins, 22 wins, and 24 wins, and during this period, dallas had gone through 6 coaches. nowitzki turned that franchise around. in only his second season, he played a big part in a team that won the most games it had for 10 years. next year he led them to the second most wins in franchise history. and the year after that they re-wrote the record books as dallas won the most it ever had. so he didn't quit like barkley would've. barkley wouldn't have even showed up if he was drafted into a mediocre franchise that was the dallas mavericks.

[Sir Charles]

bla per bla efficiency bla shut up.

Efficiency, PER and Statistical +/- Shows the Level of the Player and the IMPACT...just like LEBRON`s IMPACT TODAY..

dirk actually deserved his mvp, barkley wasn't even top 2 most valuable in 1993. nowitzki has also been top 3 mvp in 2003, top 2 in 2005, and top 4 in 2006. besides 1993 the only season where barkley was anywhere close to the top of the mvp standings was 1986 when he was third.


When has Dirk averaged 25.6 PPG (52.2 FG%/56% 2-Point FG%), 12.2 RPG, 5.1 APG? while Doubled-Tripled...Constantly!? :violin:

Barkley was also the most underrated player of his time untill given a Chance to play in a Good Team and Yeah! THAT SAME YEAR... All The Way To the Finals

How did he get to the finals? How?

He had 43 Pts (ver 60% FG), 15 Rebounds, 10 Assits in Game 5?
He had 44 Pts (74.7% FG), 24 Rebounds in Game 7?

*Player with Most 40 Pt and 20 Rbd Play-Offs Gamesl... with Who? 7`2/ 275-310 lbs Wilt Chamberlain!

When will we ever see this 7`0 ft POWER FORWARD SCORE THAT EFFICIENTLY, GAME CREATE, PASS AND REBOUND LIKE THAT? While Doubled, While Tripled?

:violin:

the result of having barkley sometimes did more bad than it did good, this was proven by the sixers trading him for guys they didn't even want, and the suns eventually doing the same thing.

barkley got to play alongside some all time greats like moses malone, julius erving, maurice cheeks, kevin johnson, hakeem olajuwon, clyde drexler, and scottie pippen, yet he didn't win a championship. how many all time greats has nowitzki played with?

Barkley has never played with an MVP TYPE PLAYER THAT CAN CREATE AND IS UNSELFISH IN HIS PRIME...

STEVE NASH...Hello MVP?!!!! :hammerhead:

A real Interior Defender that Can BOTH SCORE AND REBOUND! Juwan Howard! aswell as a Stacked Up Team

Dirk had his MVP in the WEAKEST ERA EVER while Barkley has his MVP in "one of the toughest eras in NBA History"...Early 90s!

nowitzki has played 839 games out of a possible 870 in his career, or 96%. barkley played 1073 out of 1280, or 84%.

Well there is a Difference. Barkley has PLAYED HARD!...GOING UP FOR REBOUNDS, OFFENSIVELY WAS DOUBLED-TRIPLED AND HAMMERED MOST EVERY GAME (very few complains), WAS A PLAYER NOT AFRAID OF DIVING FOR LOOSE BALLS, CAPABLE OF RUNNING BACK COURT AND BLOCK GUARDS ON THE BREAK, CAPABLE OF RUNNING! in those 84% of his Game!!

Whilel Dirk is ONE OF THE SOFTEST 7`0 ters ever to Play The Game that just likes to Shoot! :( ..

Doesn`t Rebound!, Pathetic Shot Blocker fo a 7`0 PF!, Pathetic Floor Defender!, Weak Passer and NULL GAME CREATOR as Chuck Was and YES SHOOTS WAY LESS EFFECTIVLY than Barkley because at 7`0 ft you are SUPPOSED to DOMINATE THE 2-POINT FG!...but I guess Dirks Interior Weak Post Game and Softy Puss-y Mentality Doesn`t Make Him Able to Dominate Inside!

:oldlol:

barkley was drafted to a sixers team that was 2 years removed from a championship, and a 52 win team the season prior to his rookie year. 3 years after he arrived they were in the lottery. what happened next? barkley cried and got traded.

Barkley was drafted in 84..Did not Start until 85-86 season...and Moses left the same year...Then whe was left with a crippled 35-37 year old Dr J...and let alone Scrubs...that did not make it to the play-offs un till the year 2000. That is 9 years without making to the play-offs!

barkley was traded to a suns team that was coming off a 53 win season, and a conference semi finals appearance. are you telling me the difference between charles barkley and jeff hornacek is 9 wins? :lol . in barkley's last year as a sun, his team finished with a .500 record :roll: . what happened next? barkley cried and got traded.

Barkley Made the Suns Go to the Finals go watch the Sonics vs Suns series and see for yourself...And Yes When he Got Traded To Houston because he could no longer play (injuries) as a Focal Point he added 33 Rebounds and 20 Pts in 31 Minutes of Play...the very 1st game they met.

Has Dirk goten 12 Rbds in his life?

What happened to KJ? = Unknown Superstar...Dan Majerlie...Faded Away Role Player...

Not to mention he met the Bulls in 93 (Jordan in HIS TOTAL PRIME!!!)
Fought the Deepe Rockets with Hakeem and Clyde in 94 and 95 TO 7 GAMES!, TO 7 GAMES!...

Yes that Same Team....Swept Shaq-Penny and Grant in 95!

barkley was traded to a rockets team that was 2 seasons removed from a championship, and already boasting the second best center in the nba, and the second best shooting guard in the nba. surely adding a top 3 power forward to this team would result in a championship? surely? :cry:

Barkley couln`t even more of play like he used to by the 95-96 season...go watch it yourself...And excuse me but Hakeem was 34 and Clyde 35....

Aging Teams With Superstars Don`t Work Well..Because Someone has to Do the Dirty Work...Go look at the 1988-1992 Celtics with Parish, Bird and McHale...(too much lad for guys there where 32,33 and 40)

Lets also Remebmer the Rockets played in TOUGHER ERA in the NBA...THE REAL NBA!

NOT THE WORST... LESS COMPETITIVE AND LESS FILLED WITH STARS Era since the late 70s.... YES THE EARLY 2000s

nowitzki was drafted to a franchise that had won more than 28 games on one occasion over the last 8 years of its existence, including seasons of 11 wins, 13 wins, 20 wins, 22 wins, and 24 wins, and during this period, dallas had gone through 6 coaches. nowitzki turned that franchise around. in only his second season, he played a big part in a team that won the most games it had for 10 years. next year he led them to the second most wins in franchise history. and the year after that they re-wrote the record books as dallas won the most it ever had. so he didn't quit like barkley would've. barkley wouldn't have even showed up if he was drafted into a mediocre franchise that was the dallas mavericks.

Barkley played hi Ass of In Phily!...League Rebounder, League Offensive Rebounder!, Play-Off League Rebounder 3 Years in a Row, Highest (2-Point FG% for a Focal Scorer from 1986 to 1992). Leagues Most Unstoppalbe Player Inside and Out, Forward Most Doubled and Most Tripled...Created Most Ilegal Defenses in the NBA in the Late 80s and Early 9's. Had the Highest SPG Avg fro the PF Spot Ever!. Averaged 4-6 APG in the Play-Offs had seasons with 1.5 BPG and 1-5/2 SPG! And after 1986 ended up with a bunch of Scrubs...

Dirk has to stop trying to be the 7`0 Larry Bird...and do what REAL PFs do:

Dominate the Paint
REBOUND!
Become a Decent Shot Blocker and Tough Inside Presence...
Floor Defender?
Dive For Loose Balls
Have LEGENDARY-LIKE GAMES!
GAME CREATE, PASS...Something Unknown to Dirk...

To Be Even Seen as Top PF 7-8 PF of All Time.

By the way...IT WAS BARKLEY...whom...promoted Dirk to go to the NBA..

Do Dirk should thank his Ass!

If Dirk would have played in the 80s and 90s...He Would Have Gotten Injured...The Game Was Not Made For Puss-ies .YOU EARNED YOUR POINTS! and THERE WAS NO HELP FOR PERIMTER SHOOTERS (DIRK) :sleeping

[iTruWarrior]

Barkley is clearly better than Dirk, There is no debate here so I want Sir Charles to win.

However, Sir Charles you are underrating Kevin Johnson a lot.... He is probably the most underrated point guard of all-time.

[L.Kizzle]

Barkley is clearly better than Dirk, There is no debate here so I want Sir Charles to win.

However, Sir Charles you are underrating Kevin Johnson a lot.... He is probably the most underrated point guard of all-time.
Underrated in the sports world, overrated on ISH.

[L.Kizzle]

Also a guy by the name of Maurice Stokes, had he not ended his career in 1958, would be one of the greatest power forwards ever!!!!

[Sir Charles]

Barkley is clearly better than Dirk, There is no debate here so I want Sir Charles to win.

However, Sir Charles you are underrating Kevin Johnson a lot.... He is probably the most underrated point guard of all-time.

K.J is underrated I agree..but he was a selfish player...that wanted to be MJ-Isiah when the team needed him to be Stockton.

[Shep]

Efficiency, PER and Statistical +/- Shows the Level of the Player and the IMPACT...just like LEBRON`s IMPACT TODAY..
no, watching games shows the impact

When has Dirk averaged 25.6 PPG (52.2 FG%/56% 2-Point FG%), 12.2 RPG, 5.1 APG? while Doubled-Tripled...Constantly!?
what has this got to do with nowitzki winning his mvp rightfully, and barkley never being top 2 most valuable?

Barkley was also the most underrated player of his time untill given a Chance to play in a Good Team and Yeah! THAT SAME YEAR... All The Way To the Finals
philadelphia 2 years removed from a championship wasn't a good team? :roll: malone, erving, cheeks, toney - all were still there (malone was the best center in the nba, erving the third best small forward), and playing with barkley drove them all out of town.

How did he get to the finals? How?

He had 43 Pts (ver 60% FG), 15 Rebounds, 10 Assits in Game 5?
He had 44 Pts (74.7% FG), 24 Rebounds in Game 7?

ah yes..you're talking about the sonics series. what did he do in that series? what?

He had 12 Pts (43%FG), and 3 turnovers (outplayed by a 23 year old shawn kemp) in Game 1?
He had 13 Pts (29%FG), and 3 turnovers (dominated by a 23 year old shawn kemp, who had 22 points, 15 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, and 3 blocks) in game 6?

if barkley showed up in those games phoenix would've (and should've) advanced in 5 games

*Player with Most 40 Pt and 20 Rbd Play-Offs Gamesl... with Who? 7`2/ 275-310 lbs Wilt Chamberlain!
destroyed

When will we ever see this 7`0 ft POWER FORWARD SCORE THAT EFFICIENTLY, GAME CREATE, PASS AND REBOUND LIKE THAT? While Doubled, While Tripled?
you gave 2 good games as an example as to why barkley is better than nowitzki? get out of this thread.

Barkley has never played with an MVP TYPE PLAYER THAT CAN CREATE AND IS UNSELFISH IN HIS PRIME...

STEVE NASH...Hello MVP?!!!!
:roll: what a joke. first of all nash wasn't top 8 the first year he won the award, or top 11 the second year. secondly barkley was in his prime in '86, and in '86 maurice cheeks was a top 3 point guard, and was someone who could create with the best of them. then he got to play with kevin johnson, who also was one of the best point guards in the nba. it was by no coincidence, however, that johnson played his best basketball in the seasons prior to barkley's arrival.

A real Interior Defender that Can BOTH SCORE AND REBOUND! Juwan Howard! aswell as a Stacked Up Team
:wtf:

Dirk had his MVP in the WEAKEST ERA EVER while Barkley has his MVP in "one of the toughest eras in NBA History"...Early 90s!
:roll: the difference in the two era's is very minor. granted, nowitzki wouldn't have won the mvp in 1993 all things being equal, but barkley never should've either. you can only play against what you are given.

Well there is a Difference. Barkley has PLAYED HARD!
:roll:

Doesn`t Rebound!, Pathetic Shot Blocker fo a 7`0 PF!, Pathetic Floor Defender!, Weak Passer and NULL GAME CREATOR as Chuck Was and YES SHOOTS WAY LESS EFFECTIVLY than Barkley because at 7`0 ft you are SUPPOSED to DOMINATE THE 2-POINT FG!...but I guess Dirks Interior Weak Post Game and Softy Puss-y Mentality Doesn`t Make Him Able to Dominate Inside!
just because nowitzki has a different game to barkley it doesn't mean he is soft. if barkley posted up every posession instead of shooting wild 3 pointers and 20 footers with no hope of going in maybe i would'nt be schooling you on who was the better player. nowitzki had range, barkley didn't, yet he did his best at telling himself that he did, much to his teams detriment. it would be stupid to force dirk to play only inside when he has shown that he can dominate games from the perimiter time and time again. that'd be like telling barkley to play shooting guard because he is 6-4.

Barkley Made the Suns Go to the Finals go watch the Sonics vs Suns series and see for yourself
i've seen it, and destroyed it.

And Yes When he Got Traded To Houston because he could no longer play (injuries) as a Focal Point he added 33 Rebounds and 20 Pts in 31 Minutes of Play...the very 1st game they met.
thats awesome. 1 meaningless regular season boxscore, thats all i needed to convince myself that barkley is better :ohwell: . its a pity that barkley needed such motivation to play this well, unfortunately for him and his teams that believed in him he wasn't motivated nearly enough to be a success.

Has Dirk goten 12 Rbds in his life?
:cry:

What happened to KJ? = Unknown Superstar...Dan Majerlie...Faded Away Role Player...
after barkley left you mean? kj played alot better without him, and majerle had career highs in ppg, rpg, bpg, and 3p% the year before he arrived.

Not to mention he met the Bulls in 93 (Jordan in HIS TOTAL PRIME!!!)
Fought the Deepe Rockets with Hakeem and Clyde in 94 and 95 TO 7 GAMES!, TO 7 GAMES!...
clyde was with the rockets in '94? thats news to me. and they made it to 7 games? congratulations on that, what about winning the series? did they do that? you know, the thing they were meant to do coming in as favourites? not lose a 7 game series after winning the first 2 games on the other teams home court ('94), or lose a series after winning 3 out of the first 4 games, with home court advantage, while shooting 7-16 in the deciding game.

Barkley couln`t even more of play like he used to by the 95-96 season...go watch it yourself...And excuse me but Hakeem was 34 and Clyde 35....
oh, here come the excuses :cry: . you lay out the excuses, i'll lay out the facts. olajuwon was the second best center in the nba, barkley was the third best power forward in the nba, and drexler was the second best shooting guard in the nba. olajuwon/barkley was the third best duo in the nba, olajuwon/barkley/drexler was the best trio in the nba, and the sixth best single season trio in nba history. there was no excuse for the rockets not to win the championship that year.

Aging Teams With Superstars Don`t Work Well..Because Someone has to Do the Dirty Work...Go look at the 1988-1992 Celtics with Parish, Bird and McHale...(too much lad for guys there where 32,33 and 40)
none of these celtics teams had 3 top 3 players at their respective positions

Lets also Remebmer the Rockets played in TOUGHER ERA in the NBA...THE REAL NBA!
:cry:

NOT THE WORST... LESS COMPETITIVE AND LESS FILLED WITH STARS Era since the late 70s.... YES THE EARLY 2000s
the 00's has had just as many, if not more stars than the 90's.

Barkley played hi Ass of In Phily!...League Rebounder, League Offensive Rebounder!, Play-Off League Rebounder 3 Years in a Row..bla bla
..chemistry destroyer, media cryer, cheeseburger eater, 2 year old girl spitter etc

And after 1986 ended up with a bunch of Scrubs...
thats his own fault, he drove any talented players they had away.

Dirk has to stop trying to be the 7`0 Larry Bird...and do what REAL PFs do:
his game is finesse, not banging, although when needed he can post up. dirk blazed his own trail, he revolutionised the position.

To Be Even Seen as Top PF 7-8 PF of All Time.
top 4 to be precise.

By the way...IT WAS BARKLEY...whom...promoted Dirk to go to the NBA..

Do Dirk should thank his Ass!
:sleeping

If Dirk would have played in the 80s and 90s...He Would Have Gotten Injured...The Game Was Not Made For Puss-ies .YOU EARNED YOUR POINTS! and THERE WAS NO HELP FOR PERIMTER SHOOTERS (DIRK)
if barkley played today he'd be so out of shape teams couldn't affort to play him more than 5 minutes per game, think of how many fast food stores there were in the 80's to how many there are now! barkley surely wouldn't be able to resist temptation.

[Quata]

Both of you need to get a job, because spending this much time posting so much **** having an argument with someone on the internets is kind of bad, i assume you guys arent getting paid for it....

[Sir Charles]

no, watching games shows the impact

Exactly and What is Dirk`s Impact Compared to Barkley`s? EFF, PER are exactly what people don`t like to see (Lebron > Kobe) says More Than Just That!

what has this got to do with nowitzki winning his mvp rightfully...

MVP = Best Player with Teams Most Wins...It Doesn`t = Better Player!

What About Barkley`s Higher PER than Hakeem`s in the 1989-90 Season? and taking his PATHETIC TEAM OF NOBODIES to 53-29 in the More Competitive Eastern Conference...while Hakeem had a lower PER and a Team Record of 41-41? :violin:

Barkley Was the 1990 MVP in MAGIC`s and JORDAN`s PRIME!!! BUT THEY STOLE IT FROM HIM Because All of the Bad Publicity...

Same Way :sleeping ...by the way i love Hakeem....He is Favorite Center Ever!...but Barkley was the MVP the 93 Season not necesarly the Best Player.

But he Was the Second or Third Best Player after Jordan (with Hakeem) from 1985 and 1995 Overal...(that will soon be explained on the next page)

philadelphia 2 years removed from a championship wasn't a good team? :roll: malone, erving, cheeks, toney - all were still there..

1stly Barkley was not a starter till the 1985-86 season
2ndly The Team Was Not Built Around Barkley....which Should Have Been but you have to Respect Legends like Malone, Jones and Aging Erving...Something Todays Players don`t know sh-it about...

Till 1985-86 It was Great Team...(Moses Left after that) Bobb Jones was like 35, The Doctor 36! etc...

1986-87 Above Average...To Good.

1987-1992 = Pathetic Team....

ah yes..you're talking about the sonics series. what did he do in that series? what?...

destroyed

Did I Ever Say Kemp Sucked?

Did he Out Play Barkley? Lets See...

Game 1

Kemp: 16 Points (6-11), 10 Rebounds, 5 Assits, 1 Steal, 2 Blocks, 4 TOV and 5 Personal Fouls

Barkley: 12 Points (6-14), 14 Rebounds, 2 Assits, 1 Block, 3 TOV and 2 Personal Fouls

Game 2

Kemp: 16 Points (5-5), 6 Rebounds, 7 Blocks, 2 TOV and 3 Personal Fouls

Barkley: 24 Points (9-19), 10 Rebounds, 6 Assits and 3 Personal Fouls

Game 3

Kemp: 19 Points (5-14), 12 Rebounds, 1 Assit, 2 Steals, 3 Blocks, TOV 4 and 5 Personal Fouls

Barkley: 16 Points (7-20), 16 Rebounds, 2 Assits, 4 Steals, 1 Block, 2 TOV and 4 Personal Fouls

Game 4

Kemp: 20 Points (8-13), 8 Rebounds, 3 Assists, 2 Steals, 4 Blocks, 5 TOV, 6 Personal Fouls (Fouled Out)

Barkley: 27 (11-20), 7 Rebounds, 4 Assits, 2 Steals, 1 Block, 5 TOV and 5 Personal Fouls

Game 5

Kemp: 33 Points (13-18), 6 Rebounds, 4 Assits, 1 Steal, 3 Blocks, 3 TOV and 4 Personal Fouls

Barkley: 43 Points (16-22), 15 Rebounds, 10 Assits, 2 Steals, 2 Blocks, 3 TOV and 2 Personal Fouls

Game 6

Kemp: 33 Points (8-12), 15 Rebounds, 4 Assits, 1 Steal, 3 Blocks, 2 TOV and 5 Personal Fouls

Barkley: 13 Points (4-14), 11 Rebounds, 3 Assits, 1 Steal, 1 Block, 3 TOV and 3 Personal Fouls

Game 7

Kemp: 18 Pts (5-12), 8 Rebounds, 3 Assits, 2 Steals, 2 Blocks, 4 TOV and 6 Personal Fouls (Fouled Out)

Barkley: 44 Points (12-20), 24 Rebounds, 1 Assits, 1 Steal, 1 Blocks, 3 TOV and 3 Personal Fouls

Series Stats:

Barkley: 25.6 PPG (50.4% FG), 9.3 RPG, 2.9 APG, 1.3 SPG, 3.4 BPG, 2.7 TOV PG and 3.1 Personal Fouls PG

Kemp: 20.6 PPG (58.9% FG), 13.9 RPG, 4.0, APG, 1,4 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 3.4 TOV PG and 4.8 Personal Fouls PG

What can be said here?...LEARN!

Kemp slowed Down Barkley with his Great Interior Defense...Maybe!

Could He Stop him? NOOOOT!

Kemp Shot well Against Barkley...Better than Barkley...

But....

WAS KEMP DOULED TEAMED IN THE SERIES? :eek: BARKLEY WAS!
WAS KEMP TRIPLED TEAMED WITH HELP OF PERIMTER PLAYERS IN THAT SERIES? (PAYTON, McKEY and EDDIE JOHNSON) :eek: BARKLEY WAS!

:no:

Barkley Out Rebounded Kemp
Barkley Out Assited Kemp
Barkey Was Way Better at Distrubution the Ball and Game Creating (even While Doubled and Tripled by Perimter Players!)
Barkley Less Turnovers than Kemp
Barkley`s Floor Defense Was slightly Better than Kemp

Kemp`s Interior Defense Was Way Better...

But...Ofcourse...It always has been But...

*HE HAD A BETTER DEFENDING TEAM...AND A DEEPER DEFENDING TEAM...THE SONICS WHERE PROBABLY THE BEST "TEAM" NOT TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP IN THE 90s

And Question?

Who Was He Guarding While RECIEVING HELP BY HIS TEAMATES IN DOUBLE TEAMING..AGAINST?

BARKLEY!

Reason why he nearly had a Fouling Out Series!!!! :roll:

Barkley Made Kemp Foul Out Almost Every Game...Even WHILE DOULBED AND TRIPLED TEAMED!!!:eek:

Barkley Also Went to the Line More....WITH NO PICK AND ROLL SYSTEM....:applause:

And finally: Barkleys most probable 2-Point FG% is around 54% + 24 PPG...because as we know in him..he used to launch alot of 3s

TAKE A LOOK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnpagQIHuIs

Minutes: 3.25!

SONICS THEME and STRATEGY A SIMPLE ONE:

"STOP BARKLEY AND YOU GOT THE SUNS"

"DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TEAMING HIM...SEATTLE WORKED TO STOP CHARLES"

OWNED! :hammertime:

Wan`t More Ownership? TURN TO NEXT PAGE....

[Sir Charles]

you gave 2 good games as an example as to why barkley is better than nowitzki? get out of this thread.

That is no example...Did i say it was? :no: but i can surely give you an interesting example of what a
DOMINATNG PLAYER IS AT HIS POSITION...

*Something Dirk IS NOT!

http://ballhype.com/story/passing_the_torch_from_dolph_to_duncan/

Passing the Torch: From Dolph to Duncan

Jason posted 6/13/2007 from ballhype.com

Like it or not, the Spurs are about to capture their 4th title in the past 9 years, and Tim Duncan is a huge part of it. In The Magazine last month, Bill Simmons made the case for The Big Fundamental being the best NBA player of the past 10 years. (= Dominating at his Position)

It got me to thinking ... if Duncan's the best player from the past 10 years, what about prior 10-year periods? '87-'97 seems pretty obvious, but what about '77-'87? Or '90-'00? And, is Duncan really the best of '97-'07?

To answer these questions, I looked to John Hollinger's Player Efficiency Rating (PER)--a pretty good overall measure of individual ability that happens to be available for every player dating back to 1951-52, thanks to the fantastic Basketball-Reference.com site.

For each 10-year period, I first identified all players who played at least 23,616 minutes (which equates to 36 minutes a game in 80% of a team's regular season contests).

In a nod to a certain former White Sox minor leaguer, players who reached the minutes threshold but didn't play in all 10 seasons were included. I then calculated which player had the highest average PER across the period. Because PER is a per-minute statistic, I weighted the season ratings according to minutes played.

Not surprisingly, calculating the results for every 10-year period beginning with '51-'61 resulted in a nifty passing-the-torch sequence--like the new Jones on the NBA header graphic, but not as Laker-rific. And, according to this calculation, Duncan is indeed the best player from the past 10 years (and the only 10-year leader who wasn't selected as one of the 50 Greatest NBA players of all-time in 1996).

Here are all of the 10-year leaders, listed in chronological order.

Decade(s) led appear just below each name. For example, '51-'61 refers to the period beginning with the '51-'52 season and ending with the '60-'61 season.

Dolph Schayes
'51-61, '52-62
6'7" forward-center ...

league's all-time leading scorer at time of retirement ... didn't miss a game between '52 and '61 ... broke his right arm and played almost an entire season in a cast ... member of both the International Jewish Sports Hall of Fame and the National Jewish Sports Hall of Fame ... son Danny played for 7 NBA teams.

Bob Pettit
'53-63, '54-64, '55-65
6'9" power forward ...

league's all-time leading scorer at time of retirement ... averaged 16.2 rebounds a game for his career ... full name: Robert E. Lee Pettit ... 1st team All-NBA for first 10 seasons, 2nd team in 11th ... cut from high school basketball team as a freshman and sophomore ... the original power forward.

Wilt Chamberlain

'56-66, '57-67, '58-68, '59-69, '60-70, '61-71, '62-72, '63-73, '65-75
7'1" center ...

league's all-time leading scorer at time of retirement ... logged enough minutes to qualify for '56-'66 decade even though he didn't join the league until '59 ... averaged 50.4 points and 25.7 rebounds in 48.5 minutes per game in '61-62 ... led league in assists in '66-67 (7.8 per game) and shooting (.683) ... only 4,124 saw his 100-point game (that's 15,876 less than his 2nd-most notable number).

Jerry West
'64-74
6'2" guard-forward ...

nicknames: Mr. Clutch, Mr. Consistency, The Logo, Zeke from Cabin Creek ... averaged 27.0 points per game for career ... reached NBA Finals in 9 of 13 seasons with Lakers ... playoffs scoring average (29.1) second only to MJ ... broke his nose 9 times ... son Jonnie redshirted the 2006-07 season at West Virginia University.

Walt "Clyde" Frazier
'66-'76
6'4" point guard ...

nickname stems from (Bonnie and) Clyde-like hat he used to sport ... the real hero of the Willis Reed game: 36 points, 19 assists and five steals ... so cool off the court and on, he would barely even sweat ... signed one of the first athlete-shoe deals for the Puma Clyde ... "swishing and dishing," "out-hustling, out-muscling," "moving and grooving," "shaking and baking," "posting and toasting."

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

'67-77, '68-78, '69-79, '70-80, '71-81, '72-82, '73-83, '74-84, '75-85, '76-86, '77-87
7'2" center ... l

eague's all-time leading scorer ... figured prominently in worst chat in Internet history and best jacket seen in a game ... "has heard that crap since UCLA" ... once sued former Dolphins running back Karim Abdul-Jabbar ... "busts his buns every night" ... owned Larry King, Alexandra Paul, Martina Navratilova and Reggie Jackson in Celebrity Jeopardy.

Larry Bird
'78-88, '79-'89
6'9" forward ...

scored 49 points in his last triple-double in '92 ... three-peat MVP awards in 83-84, 84-85, and 85-86 ... legendary trash-talker, baited Dr. J in famous '84 fight ... when it was signed in 1979, $650k/year rookie contract was richest ever ... dubious homage: 2005 Oklahoma City convict asked that his sentence be changed from 30 years to 33 years ... absolutely will not pay $1 for a glass of lemonade.

Magic Johnson
'80-90, '81-'91, '82-'92
6'8" point guard ...


league's all-time assists leader at time of retirement ... as a rookie, played every position on the court in 42-point, 15-rebound, 7-assist championship-clinching performance ... "Buck has come to play his way and his way is to thwart" ... "The Magic Hour" lasted 3 weeks longer than "The Chevy Chase Show."

Charles Barkley
'85-'95
6'4" power forward ...

(THIS MY FRIEND IS CALLED WHAT?, A DECADE OF POSITION DOMINATION!!! :eek: :hammerhead: :oldlol: )


11-time All-Star, 13-time all-interview teamer ... once mistakenly spit on a little girl instead of a racist heckler because he "didn't get enough foam" in the package ... traded to Suns for Hornacek, Perry, and Lang in one of the most lopsided deals ever ... one-time Republican who counted Dan Quayle as a golfing buddy ... Leading scorer for original dream team: "I don't know anything about Angola, but I know they're in trouble."

Michael Jordan
'83-93, '84-'94, '86-'96, '87-'97, '88-'98
6'6" shooting guard ...

The Man ... unlike most players, "love-of-the-game clause" in Bulls contracts allowed him to play in the offseason ... named greatest athlete of the 20th century by ESPN ... NBA career records: most scoring titles (10), highest career scoring average (30.12) most times robbed of MVP award (5) ... drafted Kwame Brown and Adam Morrison.

David Robinson
'89-'99, '90-'00, '91-'01
7'1" center ...

chose jersey number 50 after his idol--Ralph Sampson ... as an incoming Naval Academy plebe, posted top overall gymnastics score ... poured in 71 points in the last game of the 1994 season to overtake Shaq for the scoring title ... nice guy ... notched a rare quadruple double in 1994 as well.

Shaquille O'Neal
'92-'02, '93-'03, '94-'04, '95-'05, '96-'06
7'1" center ...

4 championships in the past 8 years ... nicknames include: Superman, Diesel, The Big Aristotle, The Big Baryshnikov, M.D.E (Most Dominant Ever), L.C.L. (Last Center Left) ... "I'm tired of hearing about money, money, money, money, money. I just want to play the game, drink Pepsi, wear Reebok." ... picked up an online MBA through the University of Phoenix in 2005.

Tim Duncan
'97-'07 (Where Was Dirk To Dominate in This Position?:( )
7'0" forward-center ...

as a teenager, was a star swimmer before Hugo wiped out island's only Olympic pool ... suffers from Selachophobia ... 2nd to Adonal Foyle in career NCAA blocked shots ... at 16, rumored to have played Alonzo Mourning to a tie in a 1-on-1 game ... rarely-discussed fact: Celtics actually had the inside track in the Duncan lottery.

There you have it--by one measure, the biggest NBA stars of the past 55 years. The most notable omission is probably Bill Russell, who anchored a Celtics team that won 11 titles in 13 years. The problem is, Russell was always more of a "wins" guy than a "stats" guy, and he played at the same time as the greatest stats guy the league has seen to date.

Questions from here: how long does Duncan carry the torch, and who's up next?

Note*

Some of you might be surprised that Hakeem is not Mentioned but its because they Picked the Top 10 In Dominating Their Position For More Years

but from 1985 to 1992 or So.. he was the Most Dominating at HIS POSTION...

Something...Mr. Dirk Never has never done more than 1 or 2 years....in his Whole Career!!! in The Weak 2000s

Another Note*

Wasn`t I! YES I! (Sir Charles the Poster!) the one that kept telling everyone, everyone here (without even looking at this before....) that Barkley was the Best PF in the League from 1985 to 1995?

:confusedshrug: :banghead: :hammerhead: It Just So Happens I Wasn`t Mistaken!!

OWNED! :hammertime:

[Sir Charles]

I Aint Done Schooling You Yet...:no: :rockon:

You said Cheeks...was one of the Top 3 PGs in the League in the Late 80s...False...

Actually Cheek`s PER was HIGHER THANKS TO BARKLEY than when Malone came (he was a bad passer and null game creator).....Barkley lifted his PER!

Check it Out Yourelf

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cheekma01.html

And...NO...Cheeks Was Never a Top 5 PG in the League in the Late 80s...He Was Good Role Player..


Cheek is a Top 214 Season PER Player..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Cheek is a Top 110 Play-Off PER Player

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

Excuse Me That is a Top PG?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes: :banghead: :oldlol:

Look at How Many Other PGs are Above Him...:violin:

IN FACT...

Barkley ALSO LIFTED THUNDER DAN`S PER..and He Himself Said (I have it on video)

"His Best Years and Time Playing Basketball Was with The Chuckster..."

See For Yourself...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/majerda01.html

Dan went from 15.4-15.1 PER Player (With the Suns)...to a...13-10 PER Player (In Miami)

And KJ`s Highest Play-Off PER Seasons WAS WHEN BARKLEY WAS THERE....

Then he faded away...

Resume...

Cheeks Was a Good Role Player and Defender....BARKLEY LIFTED HIS PER
Dan Another Good Role Player and Shooter...BARKLEY LIFTED HIS PER
KJ was An All Star (Real One, Dan Wasn`t) in the Late 80s and Early 90s...BARKLEY LIFTED HIS PER

When Dan and KJ...Where Left Alone...THEY WHERE NOBODIES!

Cheek`s Best Individual Seasons = THANKS TO MULTI DIMENSIONAL AND MULTI POSITIONAL BARKLEY ...Barkley A 25-28 PPG (57-60% FG); 11-14 RPG, 4-5 APG, 2.2 SPG and 1.5 BPG MAN...ALL AROUND BABY...

MULTI POSITIONAL PLAYER (see Bird and Magic to learn about that)...LIFTS OTHERS..PER!

REASON WHY HE IS IN THE TOP 10 EFF DEPARTMENT OF ALL TIME...Who else is in that list? The.... BIRD`S, The.... MAGIC`S, The.... KAREEM`S, The RUSSELL`S, The WILT`S, The. BIG O`S, The JORDAN`S, The BAYLORS...ETC

So Barkley was not only an Impactul Dominating Player PER (pe minute) ETC (DOMINATION OF THE PF POSITION FROM 1985 TO 1995, NOW PROOVEN!..AS I SAID BEFORE) but Also One That Lifts Others Players PER!,Yes a TOP 10 EFF Player OF ALL TIME...too

OF ALL TIME...

OWNED! :hammertime:

[beau_boy04]

should kevin garnett be really this high? i never thought he was this good.

[White Chocolate]

should kevin garnett be really this high? i never thought he was this good.


Kevin Garnett now is nothing compared to his prime. Go back to 2003 and 2004 and let me know if you think KG wasn't great.

[indiefan23]

1. Tim Duncan - Obvious choice, has the rings, never folded in the playoffs, Is one of the most consistent players to ever play the game

2. Karl Malone - Great numbers, play on both ends and was extremely consistent as well.

3. Charles Barkley - Offensive force, probably the best offensive power forward of all-time, but his poor defense puts him down here. Was capable of taking over games as well.

4. Kevin Garnett - One of the greatest defenders in the game, brings intensity and can anchor and make any defense better, His versaility is also devasting, his offensive ability was not that great compared to the guys above. Probably one of the best 2nd fiddles of all-time though.

5. Kevin McHale - Had one of the most refined post game of all-time, Also an extremely underrated defender, playing with Bird and Parish hurts him.

1. Chuck - I think TD is a center honestly, Dream is the same way cept he was listed C
2. KG - or switch them
3. Dennis Rodman - or switch any so far, Rodman was so special
4. Webber - Before he got hurt, he was so, so good and hurt just into his prime
5. Moses, or McHale

Thats a pretty tough list to say 'best' at. Depending on the criteria you focus on it could be reordered any way.

Honorable mention - I love Robert Horry, even though he doesn't deserve to be on this list. Robert Horry = 100% baller.

Dishonorable mention - I HATE Karl Malone and refuse to give him credit for anything that isn't a choke, dumb statement about being the MVP or general failure in life. John Stockton is incredible.

[Bigsmoke]

come now people Dirk is not better than Barkley back when he was playing.

[Shep]

Exactly and What is Dirk`s Impact Compared to Barkley`s? EFF, PER are exactly what people don`t like to see (Lebron > Kobe) says More Than Just That!
why do you keep mentioning lebron > kobe? what has that got to do with nowitzki > barkley? nowitzki has had a bigger, much more positive impact on his team than barkley did on his. his ability to spread the floor, due to his outside touch, leaves gaping holes in the lane for teammates to drive in without having to go through help defense. his ability to create match up problems - put a big guy on him and he will go around him, put a small guy on him and he will post him up. his ability to shoot 90% from the free throw line, and 40% from down town. his ability to not throw the ball away - in 37mpg, nowitzki's career average is 1.9 turnovers per game. barkley averaged 4.7 per game one year :lol , and over 3 10 different seasons..and i could go on.

MVP = Best Player with Teams Most Wins...It Doesn`t = Better Player!
most valuable player. yes the amount of wins you have plays a huge part in this as you are no value to a team that you led to 36 wins. common sense.

What About Barkley`s Higher PER than Hakeem`s in the 1989-90 Season? and taking his PATHETIC TEAM OF NOBODIES to 53-29 in the More Competitive Eastern Conference...while Hakeem had a lower PER and a Team Record of 41-41?
per accounts for nothing. i've already destroyed this. hakeem was the league's best player in 1990, barkley wasn't even top 10. olajuwon put up historic numbers that year, nobody could touch him - even though his team finished with a .500 record. 24.3ppg, 14rpg, 2.9apg, 2.1spg, 4.6bpg, while easily being the best defender in the nba. legendary.

Barkley Was the 1990 MVP in MAGIC`s and JORDAN`s PRIME!!! BUT THEY STOLE IT FROM HIM Because All of the Bad Publicity...
barkley was nowhere near being at the top of the mvp standings. david robinson was the most valuable player. barkley wasn't even top 7 most valuable.

Same Way ...by the way i love Hakeem....He is Favorite Center Ever!...but Barkley was the MVP the 93 Season not necesarly the Best Player.

olajuwon was the '93 mvp, followed by jordan. and olajuwon was the league's best player, followed by jordan.

But he Was the Second or Third Best Player after Jordan (with Hakeem) from 1985 and 1995 Overal...(that will soon be explained on the next page)
overall? if i looked into it i couldn't see barkley being anywhere near top 3 during that 10 year stretch. i can, however, tell you that he wasn't top 11 overall for the 90's, or top 10 for the 80's.

1stly Barkley was not a starter till the 1985-86 season
2ndly The Team Was Not Built Around Barkley....which Should Have Been but you have to Respect Legends like Malone, Jones and Aging Erving...Something Todays Players don`t know sh-it about...
barkley was a starter in his rookie season. who cares if the team wasn't built around barkley? the core of a team 2 years removed from a championship was still there, if barkley came in and was willing to play a role his team required to be successfull, they should've won another championship or 2 before that core got too old, unfortunately for everyone involved, barkley wasn't willing to do that.

Till 1985-86 It was Great Team...(Moses Left after that) Bobb Jones was like 35, The Doctor 36! etc...
yes, barkley wanted to do too much, and drove everyone out. moses was only 30 years old in his last year as a sixer. can you imagine if barkley was willing to sacrifice statistical glory for team success? that sixer team could've contended for the championship for years to come.

1986-87 Above Average...To Good.

1987-1992 = Pathetic Team....
hmm, make up your mind. 1987 was average to good, or pathetic?

1988?
maurice cheeks: 13.7ppg, 3.2rpg, 8apg, 2.1spg, 0.3bpg, 50%FG, 83%FT
mike gminski: 16.9ppg, 10.5rpg, 1.8apg, .8spg, 1.8bpg, 45%FG, 94%FT
cliff robinson: 19ppg, 6.5rpg, 2.1apg, 1.3spg, .6bpg, 46%FG, 72%FT

..or the statistical equivalent of having tony parker, andris biedrins, and shawn marion of today

C biedrins
PF barkley
SF marion
SG ?
PG parker

= 36 wins? :oldlol:

1989?
gminski: 18.5ppg, 10.1rpg, 1.8apg, .6spg, 1.4bpg, 48%FG, 87%FT
cheeks: 12.9ppg, 2.9rpg, 8.7apg, 1.6spg, .3bpg, 48%FG, 77%FT
hersey hawkins: 16.7ppg, 3.1rpg, 3.3apg, 1.7spg, .5bpg, 46%FG, 43%3P, 83%FT

..or the statistical equivalent of having shaquille o'neal, allen iverson, and rodney stuckey of today

C o'neal
PF barkley
SF ?
SG stuckey
PG iverson

= 46 wins? :oldlol:

1990?
johnney dawkins: 14.3ppg, 3rpg, 7.4apg, 1.5spg, .1bpg, 49%FG, 86%FT
hawkins: 18.5ppg, 3.7rpg, 3.2apg, 1.6spg, .3bpg, 46%FG, 42%3P, 89%FT
gminski: 13.7ppg, 8.5rpg, 1.6apg, .5spg, 1.3bpg, 46%FG, 82%FT

..or the statistical equivalent of having jameer nelson, jason terry, and mehmet okur of today

C okur
PF barkley
SF ?
SG terry
PG nelson

= 53 wins? barely acceptable

1991?
hawkins: 22.1ppg, 3.9rpg, 3.7apg, 2.2spg, .5bpg, 47%FG, 40%3P, 87%FT
armon gilliam: 15ppg, 7.3rpg, 1.6apg, .7spg, .6bpg, 47%FG, 82%FT
rick mahorn: 8.9ppg, 7.8rpg, 1.5apg, 1spg, .7bpg, 47%FG, 79%FT

..or the statistical equivalent of having joe johnson, tyrus thomas, and andray blatche of today

C blatche
PF thomas
SF barkley
SG johnson
PG ?

= 44 wins? :oldlol:

1992?
hawkins: 19ppg, 3.3rpg, 3.1apg, 1.9spg, .5bpg, 46%FG, 40%3P, 87%FT
gilliam: 16.9ppg, 8.1rpg, 1.5apg, .6spg, 1bpg, 51%FG, 81%FT
dawkins: 12ppg, 2.8rpg, 6.9apg, 1.1spg, .1bpg, 44%FG, 36%3P, 88%FT

..or the statistical equivalent of having kevin martin, al harrington, and mario chalmers of today

C ?
PF harrington
SF barkley
SG martin
PG chalmers

= 35 wins? :roll:

Series Stats:

Barkley: 25.6 PPG (50.4% FG), 9.3 RPG, 2.9 APG, 1.3 SPG, 3.4 BPG, 2.7 TOV PG and 3.1 Personal Fouls PG

Kemp: 20.6 PPG (58.9% FG), 13.9 RPG, 4.0, APG, 1,4 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 3.4 TOV PG and 4.8 Personal Fouls PG
i see you even have problems with simple adding and dividing.

the real series numbers:
kemp: 20.6ppg, 9.3rpg, 2.9apg, 1.29spg, 3.43bpg, 59%FG
barkley: 25.6ppg, 13.9rpg, 4apg, 1.43spg, 1bpg, 50%FG, 2-16 3PFG

the very slight edge goes to barkley, but besides those two breakout games from him he got outplayed in every game. the mvp award winner was getting punked by a 23 year old who wasn't even top 3 in his position. the series wouldn't have gone beyone 5 games if barkley showed up to play every night.

What can be said here?...LEARN!
destroyed

WAS KEMP DOULED TEAMED IN THE SERIES? BARKLEY WAS!
WAS KEMP TRIPLED TEAMED WITH HELP OF PERIMTER PLAYERS IN THAT SERIES? (PAYTON, McKEY and EDDIE JOHNSON) BARKLEY WAS!
great players learn how to deal with double teams

WAS KEMP DOULED TEAMED IN THE SERIES? BARKLEY WAS!
WAS KEMP TRIPLED TEAMED WITH HELP OF PERIMTER PLAYERS IN THAT SERIES? (PAYTON, McKEY and EDDIE JOHNSON) BARKLEY WAS!

:cry:

Barkley Out Rebounded Kemp
Barkley Out Assited Kemp
Barkey Was Way Better at Distrubution the Ball and Game Creating (even While Doubled and Tripled by Perimter Players!)
Barkley Less Turnovers than Kemp
Barkley`s Floor Defense Was slightly Better than Kemp
kemp was much more efficient on the offensive end, and a much better defender.

Barkley Out Rebounded Kemp
Barkley Out Assited Kemp
Barkey Was Way Better at Distrubution the Ball and Game Creating (even While Doubled and Tripled by Perimter Players!)
Barkley Less Turnovers than Kemp
Barkley`s Floor Defense Was slightly Better than Kemp

Kemp`s Interior Defense Was Way Better...

But...Ofcourse...It always has been But...

*HE HAD A BETTER DEFENDING TEAM...AND A DEEPER DEFENDING TEAM...THE SONICS WHERE PROBABLY THE BEST "TEAM" NOT TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP IN THE 90s

And Question?

Who Was He Guarding While RECIEVING HELP BY HIS TEAMATES IN DOUBLE TEAMING..AGAINST?

BARKLEY!
why are you debating barkley > kemp? just because i've already destroyed you on this nowitzki > barkley "debate"..if you wish to call it that, i'd liken it more to a game of chicken - with me driving a train and you riding a bike, with only 1 outcome possible.

Reason why he nearly had a Fouling Out Series!!!!
kemp nearly had a fouling out series because he is dumb. barkley, being the best power forward in the league, and top 3 overall player, should've handled him, and the sonics much sooner.

Barkley Made Kemp Foul Out Almost Every Game...Even WHILE DOULBED AND TRIPLED TEAMED!!!
destroyed

OWNED!
destroyed

Wan`t More Ownership? TURN TO NEXT PAGE....
oh don't worry i'll turn, and continue to destroy

That is no example
so there is nothing to support your theory that barkley was better? finally, you're starting to make sense.

and an article on PER? i've already destroyed PER, why do you keep mentioning it?

THIS MY FRIEND IS CALLED WHAT?, A DECADE OF POSITION DOMINATION!!!
from 85 - 95 (which is 11 years, not 10) barkley was the best player at his position only 4 times. 4 out of 11, hardly domination. especially when you take into consideration that malone was the best power forward for 6 of those seasons.

Something...Mr. Dirk Never has never done more than 1 or 2 years....in his Whole Career!!! in The Weak 2000s
nowitzki has been the best power forward in the nba twice: 2007, and 2009

Wasn`t I! YES I! (Sir Charles the Poster!) the one that kept telling everyone, everyone here (without even looking at this before....) that Barkley was the Best PF in the League from 1985 to 1995?

It Just So Happens I Wasn`t Mistaken!!
destroyed

[Shep]

OWNED!
destroyed

You said Cheeks...was one of the Top 3 PGs in the League in the Late 80s...False...
nothing i say is false. cheeks was a top 3 point guard in 1986

Actually Cheek`s PER was HIGHER THANKS TO BARKLEY than when Malone came (he was a bad passer and null game creator).....Barkley lifted his PER!
i've destroyed per time and time again, but i'll play along this time. it seems to me cheeks highest per was before barkley was in the league. 1983. destroyed again, at your own game this time :roll:

And...NO...Cheeks Was Never a Top 5 PG in the League in the Late 80s...He Was Good Role Player..
top 3 is top 5. so yes, he was top 5, by being top 3, in 1986. 15.4ppg, 2.9rpg, 9.2apg (5th in league), 2.5spg (4th in league), 54%FG, 84%FT, all-star, 1st team all-defense, deserving of a 2nd team all-nba selection.

Cheek is a Top 214 Season PER Player..
shut up

Barkley ALSO LIFTED THUNDER DAN`S PER..and He Himself Said (I have it on video)

"His Best Years and Time Playing Basketball Was with The Chuckster..."

See For Yourself...
majerle's highest per: season before barkley arrived
majerle's second highest per: 2 seasons before barkley arrived

And KJ`s Highest Play-Off PER Seasons WAS WHEN BARKLEY WAS THERE....

Then he faded away...
kj in the four years before barkley:
20.4ppg, 4.2rpg, 12.2apg, 1.7spg
22.5ppg, 3.6rpg, 11.4apg, 1.3spg
22.2ppgg, 3.5rpg, 10.1apg, 2.1spg
19.7ppg, 3.7rpg, 10.7apg, 1.5spg

first year with barkley:
16.1ppg, 2.1rpg, 7.8apg, 1.7spg

kj was never the same player again

Cheeks Was a Good Role Player and Defender....BARKLEY LIFTED HIS PER
destroyed

Dan Another Good Role Player and Shooter...BARKLEY LIFTED HIS PER
destroyed

KJ was An All Star (Real One, Dan Wasn`t) in the Late 80s and Early 90s...BARKLEY LIFTED HIS PER
destroyed

When Dan and KJ...Where Left Alone...THEY WHERE NOBODIES!
they were much better off without him

Cheek`s Best Individual Seasons = THANKS TO MULTI DIMENSIONAL AND MULTI POSITIONAL BARKLEY ...Barkley A 25-28 PPG (57-60% FG); 11-14 RPG, 4-5 APG, 2.2 SPG and 1.5 BPG MAN...ALL AROUND BABY...
his best season was '86. but his best seasons after that were '82, '83, and '81. why couldn't barkley make cheeks better than he was after 87?

MULTI POSITIONAL PLAYER (see Bird and Magic to learn about that)...LIFTS OTHERS..PER!
barkley made nobody better

REASON WHY HE IS IN THE TOP 10 EFF DEPARTMENT OF ALL TIME...Who else is in that list? The.... BIRD`S, The.... MAGIC`S, The.... KAREEM`S, The RUSSELL`S, The WILT`S, The. BIG O`S, The JORDAN`S, The BAYLORS...ETC
who cares about efficiency when you are winning 30 games, or when you can't win with hall of famers around you?

So Barkley was not only an Impactul Dominating Player PER (pe minute) ETC (DOMINATION OF THE PF POSITION FROM 1985 TO 1995, NOW PROOVEN!..AS I SAID BEFORE) but Also One That Lifts Others Players PER!,Yes a TOP 10 EFF Player OF ALL TIME...too
to dominate your position you need to be the best at it for more than 4 years

OWNED!
destroyed

[iamgine]

Where does Sir Charles get all these stuff? He can't be writing all these stuff can he?

[Sir Charles]

nowitzki has had a bigger, much more positive impact on his team than barkley did on his...

What you don`t realize is that Dirk has never been Doubled or Tripled like Charles was :violin: .

Never has he had recieved that much contact when being guarded him in the Handchecking era.

Neither has he Been Hammered the way Sir Charles was when Going to the Basket before the puss-y rule Changes of the Late 90s.

:hammerhead:

If you are Doubled-Tripled Consantly its easier to make turn overs...

Charles was not a better Far Range Shooter than Dirk ofcourse but his Mid Range and Post Pust was Dantley like....

Mr Dirk HAS NO INTERIOR GAME, PATHETIC REBOUNDER FOR A 7ter, NOT A GREAT DEFENDER (INCAPABLE OF GUARDING WIDE STOCKY + ATHLETIC DUDES), NO PASSING GAME! and NO FLOOR DEFENSE!)

Then Again:

Barkley was Way More Unstoppable getting to the basket, Way More Athletic, Way Faster , Way Stronger, Way More Potent reason why he shot 58.13% 2-Point FG on 21.6 PPG on Less FGA PG than Dirk and 55.13% 2-Point FG on 22.5 PPG in the Play-offs for his Career..

And could Get A Rebound and Take it Coast to Coast faster than Guards and Finish with a Slam....

*Name more other Played Not Named Wilt, Shaq, Gilmore (as a second option), Kareem and McHale (as a second Option) / in The History of The NBA that where as effective as Sir Charles Scoring Inside the 2-Point line?

Name!..

Name me in the World a Player that Scored More Inside the 2-Point Line at a Superior FG% other than Charles?

(Best Offensive Olympic Player Ever...Under Zone Defense!)

Name!


-------------------------------------------------------------------

most valuable player. yes the amount of wins you have plays a huge part in this as you are no value to a team that you led to 36 wins. common sense.

per accounts for nothing.

:oldlol:

No PER accounts to what people don`t like to Admit :confusedshrug: ... reason why Bird is the Most Dominating Player in his Postion in the 80s til 1988, reason why Jordan is the the Most Domatinging Player and in His Position of the Late 80s and Early 1990s, Shaq of the Late 80s and Early 90s as Player and at His Position, Duncan at his Position of the 2000s, Kareem as a Player and at His Position the the 70s and Wilt of the 60s as a Player and at His Posotion

David and Hakeem sharing that between 1985 and 1995: Hakeem more years ofcourse...

You Might Not Like It...But its THEE TRUTH!

LETS NOT ALSO FORGET PLAY-OFF PER!

Hakeem was a Better All Around Defender than Barkley True but

NOT AS EFFECITVE SCORER
NOT AS EFFECTIVE CAUSING ILEGAL DEFENSES (DO TO DOUBLE TEAMING-TRIPLE TEAMING-PASSIVE TRIPLE TEAMING WAITING BECAUSE OF FEAR OF CHUCKS 1ST STEPP AND PASSING ABILITIES)
NOT THE PASSER
NOT THE BALL HANDLER
NOT THE GAME CREATOR
NOT THE FLOOR DEFENDER

Barkley Shot Way Higher 2-Point FG% than Hakeem...Way Higher!. That is no hate on Hakeem because he had to sometimes step away from the paint because he was 6`10 facing 7`0, 7'1, 7`2 players do to his inferior size and not bulky enough....but it wa also part of his game and looking for open Passes to his Shooters...

High FG% is LOWER and Shooting More than Barkley and Truth Be That.

He Wasn`t the Scoring Force Wilt, Kareem, Gilmore, Shaq where...

*Kareem Shot close to 57-58% on Hakeem at ages 37-41. While Hakeem shot below 50%.

Skill-Wise Offensive he Was Never As Good as Barkley. Fact!

Barkley is the Only PF in the Top of the Offensive Rating Mark

Guardlike Ballhandling-Speed-Agility-Vision, Mid Range Shooting, Going To the Basket, Had the Post Game (Learned from McHale too) to Destroy any PF (his Back to the Basket Moves Where Unstppable), and Could GO Coast to Coast like a MINI VERSION OF SHAQ at 260-284 lbs 6`4er that MOVED, SAW THE COURT AND BALL HANDLED ALMOST GUARD LIKE.

See you might be in love with Hakeem`s Quick Guard like Foot Work and Mobility FOR A 6`10 Center but Barkley was like A GUARD PLAING FORWARD AND COULD DOMINATE OFFENSIVE LIKE GILMORE,WILT, SHAQ INSIDE aswell as REBOUND like CENTER

Hakeem`s moves, agility and footwork where Incredilbe FOR A 6`10er
Barkley WAS A G-F-C in his SKILL SET & WHOLE GAME AT ONCE!

Hakeem Shot Alot....Missed Alot...reason why Kareem shot at a way higher FG% when facing him at ages what 37-41?

I say again that is no hating on Hakeem since he is my favorite Center ever of All Time but its Truth...

I don`t follow the media like some others iditos that just fall in love with MJ Air and Hype, Hakeem`s Shake and Chucksters Power Dunks...Fundementals my friend Fundamentals....:rolleyes:

By the way Chucks Dunks where the Part of The Game I Least Liked:

People Forget About His SPIN MOVES, MID RANGE SHOTS, AND BULLDOZING 1ST STEPS...Which Where the REAL TRADE MARK OF HIS GAME.

barkley was nowhere near being at the top of the mvp standings. david robinson was the most valuable player. barkley wasn't even top 7 most valuable.

Who played in the tougher Conference Robinson or Barkley in 1990? David had Terry Cummings and Eliot (Real Socers that Could Take It Inside WHile Handling the Ball)...Barkley had a Good Shooter and thats it Offensively

olajuwon was the '93 mvp, followed by jordan. and olajuwon was the league's best player, followed by jordan.

Ok if Hakeem was the 93 MVP I Dont Mind But Then Charles was the 1990 MVP!

And sorry MVP = Best Player with Mot Wins...and Barkley had More Wins than Hakeem...Barkley Beat the Sonics in 93 and Hakeem Did Not

NEXT!

overall? if i looked into it i couldn't see barkley being anywhere near top 3 during that 10 year stretch. i can, however, tell you that he wasn't top 11 overall for the 90's, or top 10 for the 80's.

That is Your Opinion because you might not like Barkley`s Face, Words, Agressive Demenor, Style of Play etc but STATS DON`T LIE and SPECIALIST SAY THIS:

http://ballhype.com/story/passing_the_torch_from_dolph_to_duncan/

Here are all of the 10-year leaders, listed in chronological order.

For the 80s and Early 90s

Charles Barkley
'85-'95 = 1985-1995 MOST DOMINANT/EFFICIENT PLAYER AT HIS POSOTION (PF)
6'4" power forward ...

THIS MY FRIEND IS CALLED WHAT?, A DECADE OF POSITION (PF) DOMINATION!

HAS DIRK EVER DOMINATED EVER DOMINATED OR BEEN BETTER THAN DUNCAN OR GARNETT MORE THAN 1 or 2 YEARS?

[/B]

DON`T EVER COMPARE THE GREATNESS OF CHARLES TO DRIK!

WHEN HE DOMINATES 10 YEARS HIS POSITION YOU CAN START COMPARING :violin:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

barkley was a starter in his rookie season. who cares if the team wasn't built around barkley?...

Have You Forgetten the TEAM THEY FACED in 85 (THE CELTICS!)

Only an Idiot would think that an Overweight Rookie with Elderly Superstars would make an Impact!

Charles as Rookie! (Overweight!) Not A Started He Played 28 MPG!

In 86 they lost and yes the team was not built around him DO TO RESPECT OF THE ELDERLY PLAYERS BUT GUESS WHAT MY FRIEND?

He was the Best Player in the Play-Offs! Playing Lesser Minutes and HAVING THE HIGHEST PER (higher than Malone, Higher than Aged Dr J)

Check It Out Yourself!


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1986.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------

hmm, make up your mind. 1987 was average to good, or pathetic?

1984-85 Was Great (Barkley a Roorkie)
1985-86 Was Great (Barkley the Best Player: Highest PER! and EFF! Both!)
1986-87 Was Above Average
1987-1992 PATHETIC.

1988...bla bla etc

Your Comparssions are More than Laughable...Almost Insulting...Why Don`t You Do This:

LOOK AT THE PER of EACH PLAYER ON THE SIXERS AND COMPARE IT TO OTHER PLAYERS IN OTHER TEAMS POSITIONS YOU DUMB FOOL! :hammerhead:

By the Way: CHEEKS HAD HIS HIGHEST PER PLAY-OFF SINCE HIS DEBUT BECAUSE OF BARKLEY's EFFECTIVENESS IN 88-89: 23.1

---------------------------------------------------------------------

the real series numbers:
kemp: 20.6ppg, 9.3rpg, 2.9apg, 1.29spg, 3.43bpg, 59%FG
barkley: 25.6ppg, 13.9rpg, 4apg, 1.43spg, 1bpg, 50%FG, 2-16 3PFG

the very slight edge goes to barkley, but besides those two breakout games from him he got outplayed in every game. the mvp award winner was getting punked by a 23 year old who wasn't even top 3 in his position. the series wouldn't have gone beyone 5 games if barkley showed up to play every night.

Slight? Total....Get Real...Barkley was Double and Tripled and The Whole Sonic Team had BUT FOCUS AND GOAL "STOP BARKLEY"... AND THEY STILL COULDN`T PRVENT BARKLEY FROM SCORING ALMOST 26 PPG ON 50%, REBOUNDING ALMOST 14, DISHING OUT 4 ASSITS...LESS TURNOVERS THAN KEMP, LESS PERSONAL FOULS..
Kemp Should Have Not Fouled Out...Maybe It Could Have Gone Better for the Sonics!!

Why did he Foul Out? :oldlol:

great players learn how to deal with double teams

EXACTLY REASON WHY BARKLEY STILL MANAGED TO SCHOOL AND HAS THE HIGHEST OFFENSIVE RATING FOR ANY PF OF ALL TIME

:hammertime:

kemp was much more efficient on the offensive end, and a much better defender.

Kemp Was More Efficient Because He Wasn`t Doubled or Tripled like Barkley Was...They Jut Set Him Up Much In the Malone Manner (ofcourse les skilled and fundamentally sound, Malone could actually shoot later in his career!)

I've already destroyed you on this nowitzki > barkley "debate"..if you wish to call it that, i'd liken it more to a game of chicken - with me driving a train and you riding a bike, with only 1 outcome possible.

HAHAHAHAHAH YEAH YOU DESTROYED ME?????

THEN HOW COME BARKLEY WAS THE MOST DOMINATING PF FROM 1985-1995

10 YEARS?

WHEN HAS DIRK BEEN THE MOST DOMINATING PF FOR 10 YEARS? WHEN?

HOW COME BARKLEY IS A TOP 10 EFF PLAYER OF ALL TIME?
HOW COME BARKLEY HAS A SUPERIOR PER THAN DIRK?

ALL IN A SUPERIOR ERA, WITH MORE SUPERSTARS, BETTER TEAMS, BETTER ROLE PLAYERS, NO PUSS-Y RULES, NO TEAM EXPANSION, NO HIGH SCHOOL PLAYERS!

from 85 - 95 (which is 11 years, not 10) barkley was the best player at his position only 4 times. 4 out of 11, hardly domination. especially when you take into consideration that malone was the best power forward for 6 of those seasons.

Still Barkley had the Superior PER and EFF over those 11-12 years ...

Malone had Stockton, Played in the Weak West and Go Check Out Malone`s PER for the Play-Offs? Where Did They Go?

Play-Off PER is even More Important than Season :cry:

nowitzki has been the best power forward in the nba twice: 2007, and 2009

BARKLEY HAD BEEN THE BEST PF IN THE LEAGUE FOR BOTH SEASON AND PLAY OFFS FOR 10 YEARS!...A WHOLE DECADE!...JUST LIKE DUNCAN HAS!

WHEN DIRK DOES THAT...YOU CAN TALK!

:hammertime:

[Shep]

What you don`t realize is that Dirk has never been Doubled or Tripled like Charles was
barkley was only double'd when he was deep in the post, just like nowitzki. the difference here is dirk is actually a threat when he's outside the post, where barkley was no threat, but convinced himself he somehow was.

Never has he had recieved that much contact when being guarded him in the Handchecking era.
you're overrating the difference of physicality of the era's, not surprisingly. there is hardly any difference, the only major change being how flagrant fouls are called, and how suspensions are handed out.

Neither has he Been Hammered the way Sir Charles was when Going to the Basket before the puss-y rule Changes of the Late 90s.
:cry:

If you are Doubled-Tripled Consantly its easier to make turn overs.
sounds like yet another excuse to me

Charles was not a better Far Range Shooter than Dirk ofcourse but his Mid Range and Post Pust was Dantley like....
barkley was not effective at all outside of the paint. post = barkley, mid + long = nowitzki. 2 > 1. nowitzki wins.

Mr Dirk HAS NO INTERIOR GAME, PATHETIC REBOUNDER FOR A 7ter, NOT A GREAT DEFENDER (INCAPABLE OF GUARDING WIDE STOCKY + ATHLETIC DUDES), NO PASSING GAME! and NO FLOOR DEFENSE!)
overall dirk was a better defender than barkley, he can post up when he needs to, he blocks more shots than barkley, he only turns the ball over 1.9 times per game in 36.6 minutes for his career, he is a career 38%3p shooter and 87%FT shooter, he has never missed more than 6 games for a single season, he is perfect for team chemistry, he wouldn't spit on 2 year old girls..etc

Then Again:

Barkley was Way More Unstoppable getting to the basket, Way More Athletic, Way Faster , Way Stronger, Way More Potent reason why he shot 58.13% 2-Point FG on 21.6 PPG on Less FGA PG than Dirk and 55.13% 2-Point FG on 22.5 PPG in the Play-offs for his Career..

And could Get A Rebound and Take it Coast to Coast faster than Guards and Finish with a Slam....
whats all this 2pFG% bull****? who cares what his 2pfg% was? he wasted possessions by chucking up 3 pointers with no hope of going in, and you're going to punish other people for barkley's stupidness? :roll: pathetic.

way stronger, way faster, farts way more potent shut up. who cares about any of this if he can't win 40 games, or prevent championship teams from breaking up and destroying chemistry?

Name more other Played Not Named Wilt, Shaq, Gilmore (as a second option), Kareem and McHale (as a second Option) / in The History of The NBA that where as effective as Sir Charles Scoring Inside the 2-Point line?
there is a 2 point line? i've destroyed this 2 point % bs.

Name me in the World a Player that Scored More Inside the 2-Point Line at a Superior FG% other than Charles?
destroyed

No PER accounts to what people don`t like to Admit
:roll: where would you be without hollinger?

reason why Bird is the Most Dominating Player in his Postion in the 80s til 1988
bird was the best player at his position each of those years. no need for per to enter that discussion

reason why Jordan is the the Most Domatinging Player and in His Position of the Late 80s and Early 1990s
jordan was the best player at his position each of those years. no need for per to enter that discussion

Shaq of the Late 80s and Early 90s as Player and at His Position
:wtf:

Duncan at his Position of the 2000s, Kareem as a Player and at His Position the the 70s and Wilt of the 60s as a Player and at His Posotion
all this is already known. per does not enter the discussion.

David and Hakeem sharing that between 1985 and 1995: Hakeem more years ofcourse...
'85 - moses malone
'86 - olajuwon
'87 - olajuwon
'88 - olajuwon
'89 - olajuwon
'90 - olajuwon
'91 - robinson
'92 - robinson
'93 - olajuwon
'94 - robinson
'95 - robinson

no need for per

You Might Not Like It...But its THEE TRUTH!
the truth is i always knew who was better

LETS NOT ALSO FORGET PLAY-OFF PER!
forget? how could you forget something that never entered your mind?

Hakeem was a Better All Around Defender than Barkley True but

NOT AS EFFECITVE SCORER
NOT AS EFFECTIVE CAUSING ILEGAL DEFENSES (DO TO DOUBLE TEAMING-TRIPLE TEAMING-PASSIVE TRIPLE TEAMING WAITING BECAUSE OF FEAR OF CHUCKS 1ST STEPP AND PASSING ABILITIES)
NOT THE PASSER
NOT THE BALL HANDLER
NOT THE GAME CREATOR
NOT THE FLOOR DEFENDER
hakeem was better at all of the above. and now you're saying barkley was a better floor defender than hakeem..now i've heard it all :roll:

Barkley Shot Way Higher 2-Point FG% than Hakeem...Way Higher!.
2 point % has been destroyed

That is no hate on Hakeem because he had to sometimes step away from the paint because he was 6`10 facing 7`0, 7'1, 7`2 players do to his inferior size and not bulky enough....but it wa also part of his game and looking for open Passes to his Shooters...
yeh no hate on hakeem, no hate at all. top 7 all-time, top 2 or 3 defender ever, unstoppable on offense, points, rebounds, steals, blocks - all regularly in the top of the league, championships etc. easily better. no contest.

High FG% is LOWER and Shooting More than Barkley and Truth Be That.
what?

He Wasn`t the Scoring Force Wilt, Kareem, Gilmore, Shaq where...
no? well he more than made up for that with his defense

Kareem Shot close to 57-58% on Hakeem at ages 37-41. While Hakeem shot below 50%.
and in that time kareem averaged 15 points, with 6 rebounds, meanwhile olajuwon averaged 22 points, 12 rebounds, 3 assists, 2.5 steals, and 2.6 blocks.

Skill-Wise Offensive he Was Never As Good as Barkley. Fact!
:roll: you must not have seen either play a full game. its the only explanation here.

Barkley is the Only PF in the Top of the Offensive Rating Mark

where did that get his team?

Guardlike Ballhandling-Speed-Agility-Vision, Mid Range Shooting, Going To the Basket, Had the Post Game (Learned from McHale too) to Destroy any PF (his Back to the Basket Moves Where Unstppable), and Could GO Coast to Coast like a MINI VERSION OF SHAQ at 260-284 lbs 6`4er that MOVED, SAW THE COURT AND BALL HANDLED ALMOST GUARD LIKE.
well, its a pity he didn't play back to the basket more often in that case, considering all the possessions he threw away with crazy shots that had no hope of going in, and crazy passes that had no chance of getting to where he pictured them going.

See you might be in love with Hakeem`s Quick Guard like Foot Work and Mobility FOR A 6`10 Center but Barkley was like A GUARD PLAING FORWARD AND COULD DOMINATE OFFENSIVE LIKE GILMORE,WILT, SHAQ INSIDE aswell as REBOUND like CENTER
you need to be specific. are you responding to me saying hakeem was easily more valuable than barkley in 1993? let me know, and i'll be more than happy to destroy you accordingly.

Hakeem`s moves, agility and footwork where Incredilbe FOR A 6`10er
Barkley WAS A G-F-C in his SKILL SET & WHOLE GAME AT ONCE!
since when is it passable for guards to only be able to shoot from 10 ft out?

Hakeem Shot Alot....Missed Alot...reason why Kareem shot at a way higher FG% when facing him at ages what 37-41?
because kareem was shooting it much less and was no longer the teams focal point. most his shots were layups due to hakeem helping out perimiter defenders and nobody left covering his man.

I say again that is no hating on Hakeem since he is my favorite Center ever of All Time but its Truth...
the truth is olajuwon was better than barkley every year

I don`t follow the media like some others iditos that just fall in love with MJ Air and Hype, Hakeem`s Shake and Chucksters Power Dunks...Fundementals my friend Fundamentals....
wins > all

By the way Chucks Dunks where the Part of The Game I Least Liked:

People Forget About His SPIN MOVES, MID RANGE SHOTS, AND BULLDOZING 1ST STEPS...Which Where the REAL TRADE MARK OF HIS GAME.
i didn't like watching barkley too much. he held on to the ball for far too long, took wild 3's and long 2's, made crazy passes that went out of bounds, disappeared for long stretches, and acted like a loser towards refs and fans

Who played in the tougher Conference Robinson or Barkley in 1990? David had Terry Cummings and Eliot (Real Socers that Could Take It Inside WHile Handling the Ball)...Barkley had a Good Shooter and thats it Offensively

david robinson was the main reason the spurs completed the biggest single season turnaround in nba history. from 21 wins, to 56 wins. robinson played in all 82 games, and averaged 24.3ppg, 12rpg, 2apg, 1.7spg, and 3.9bpg, on 53%FG, and 73%FT - all as a rookie! barkley wasn't even top 7.

[Shep]

Ok if Hakeem was the 93 MVP I Dont Mind But Then Charles was the 1990 MVP!
barkley was nowhere near the 1990 mvp, infact he wasn't even top 7.

And sorry MVP = Best Player with Mot Wins...and Barkley had More Wins than Hakeem...Barkley Beat the Sonics in 93 and Hakeem Did Not

barkley also had a top 3 point guard, and a top 3 shooting guard. olajuwon's second best player was vernon maxwell. mvp = wins + production + games played. olajuwon was clearly the mvp in 1993.

NEXT!
destroyed

That is Your Opinion because you might not like Barkley`s Face, Words, Agressive Demenor, Style of Play etc but STATS DON`T LIE and SPECIALIST SAY THIS:
yes..its because barkley has an ugly face :oldlol: . i've already destroyed what this "specialist" had to say.

THIS MY FRIEND IS CALLED WHAT?, A DECADE OF POSITION (PF) DOMINATION!
4 out of 11 years is not position domination. malone dominated that position for 6 of those 11 years.

HAS DIRK EVER DOMINATED EVER DOMINATED OR BEEN BETTER THAN DUNCAN OR GARNETT MORE THAN 1 or 2 YEARS?
dirk has been the best at his position twice: 2007 and 2009

DON`T EVER COMPARE THE GREATNESS OF CHARLES TO DRIK!

WHEN HE DOMINATES 10 YEARS HIS POSITION YOU CAN START COMPARING
he's had a better career than barkley, there really is no need to compare, its common sense.

Have You Forgetten the TEAM THEY FACED in 85 (THE CELTICS!)
have you forgotten that most people have the '83 sixers as one of the best teams in nba history? the core of that team was all still there and they just added this best 2p fg% ever, skillset of a guard forward or center, great passer, lightning quick, perfect game creater!

no excuses with that roster, surely.

Only an Idiot would think that an Overweight Rookie with Elderly Superstars would make an Impact!
moses malone was 29, dr j was 34 (but still a top 3 small forward), cheeks was 28, toney 27. no excuses.

In 86 they lost and yes the team was not built around him DO TO RESPECT OF THE ELDERLY PLAYERS BUT GUESS WHAT MY FRIEND?

He was the Best Player in the Play-Offs! Playing Lesser Minutes and HAVING THE HIGHEST PER (higher than Malone, Higher than Aged Dr J)
yes, in '86 barkley was easily their best player, which is probably why they struggled so much - barkley wanted to stat whore, and wanted the spotlight. no wonder malone was gone by next season.

Your Comparssions are More than Laughable...Almost Insulting...Why Don`t You Do This:

LOOK AT THE PER of EACH PLAYER ON THE SIXERS AND COMPARE IT TO OTHER PLAYERS IN OTHER TEAMS POSITIONS YOU DUMB FOOL!
per? why would i use such a useless thing? those players put up the same stats as the players i mentioned. and now you're complaining because you've been destroyed over and over again? :cry:

By the Way: CHEEKS HAD HIS HIGHEST PER PLAY-OFF SINCE HIS DEBUT BECAUSE OF BARKLEY's EFFECTIVENESS IN 88-89: 23.1
:roll: in a 3 game sweep at the hands of new york? because 3 games is enough sample space to determine how good a player is, and made even more disgusting by the use of per :lol

Slight? Total....Get Real...Barkley was Double and Tripled and The Whole Sonic Team had BUT FOCUS AND GOAL "STOP BARKLEY"... AND THEY STILL COULDN`T PRVENT BARKLEY FROM SCORING ALMOST 26 PPG ON 50%, REBOUNDING ALMOST 14, DISHING OUT 4 ASSITS...LESS TURNOVERS THAN KEMP, LESS PERSONAL FOULS..
Kemp Should Have Not Fouled Out...Maybe It Could Have Gone Better for the Sonics!!

Why did he Foul Out? :oldlol:
i told you why he fouled out - kemp is dumb, yet barkley, the best power forward in the nba, nearly let this 23 year old beat his team, a team with the leagues best record, and boasting the best power forward in the nba, the third best point guard in the nba, and the third best shooting guard in the nba

EXACTLY REASON WHY BARKLEY STILL MANAGED TO SCHOOL AND HAS THE HIGHEST OFFENSIVE RATING FOR ANY PF OF ALL TIME
then why has barkley always struggled to not turn the ball over? obviously because he couldn't handle double teams

1988...bla bla etc
i've destroyed this in my previous post

Kemp Was More Efficient Because He Wasn`t Doubled or Tripled like Barkley Was
but he was more efficient

They Jut Set Him Up Much In the Malone Manner (ofcourse les skilled and fundamentally sound, Malone could actually shoot later in his career!)
kemp could shoot alot better than barkley. from anywhere out of 10 ft kemp was draining the jumper if you weren't up in his face.

HAHAHAHAHAH YEAH YOU DESTROYED ME?????

THEN HOW COME BARKLEY WAS THE MOST DOMINATING PF FROM 1985-1995

10 YEARS?
'85-'95 is 11 years. barkley was the best power forward for 4 of those years, malone 6.

10 YEARS?
4 years

WHEN HAS DIRK BEEN THE MOST DOMINATING PF FOR 10 YEARS? WHEN?
dirk has been the best power forward 2 years - 2007 and 2009

HOW COME BARKLEY IS A TOP 10 EFF PLAYER OF ALL TIME?
HOW COME BARKLEY HAS A SUPERIOR PER THAN DIRK?
probably because they mean nothing in terms of all-time status

ALL IN A SUPERIOR ERA, WITH MORE SUPERSTARS, BETTER TEAMS, BETTER ROLE PLAYERS, NO PUSS-Y RULES, NO TEAM EXPANSION, NO HIGH SCHOOL PLAYERS!
no. the 80s had very little superstars. 90s had about the same as 00s.

Still Barkley had the Superior PER and EFF over those 11-12 years ...
which means nothing

Malone had Stockton, Played in the Weak West and Go Check Out Malone`s PER for the Play-Offs? Where Did They Go?
why would i check out anyones per any time? that'd be a waste of time. malone had stockton? so what? barkley had numerous chances to play alongside superstars and we all know how that worked out. and malone's numbers increased every year in the playoffs, all this on top of the fact that malone was worlds ahead of barkley in terms of defense.

Play-Off PER is even More Important than Season
per isnt important anytime

BARKLEY HAD BEEN THE BEST PF IN THE LEAGUE FOR BOTH SEASON AND PLAY OFFS FOR 10 YEARS!...A WHOLE DECADE!...JUST LIKE DUNCAN HAS!
:roll: don't even mention barkley in the same sentence as duncan. barkley was the best power forward in the nba on 4 occasions, no more, no less.

WHEN DIRK DOES THAT...YOU CAN TALK!
dirk has done that twice, but he is ahead of barkley due to things already outlined by me

[giantgonzolez]

It's AMAZING how much people underrate players like Olajuwon and Barkley.
Barkley is so much better than Any Power Forward to ever play the game that it's not even funny. Even as an old man, he completely SHUT DOWN SHAQ holding him to like 10% or less FG% for an entire quarter during several playoff games during the 1999 playoffs. Shaq never got an AND1 against Barkley during the whole series. After Chuck hit Shaq, there was NO WAY Shaq was putting up a shot or a dunk after the foul.
When Barkley played 100% on defense, he could shut down ANY BIG MAN Power Forward or Center.
The only guy I've seen who Barkley couldn't shut down was Olajuwon, and that's only because Olajuwon's moves were so unpredictable that Barkley couldn't guess right. Barkely is probably a 1 in 20 billion type of athlete.
I've NEVER seen a 6'4 1/2" guy like Barkley be able to dunk in traffic while STANDING in the paint and having 5 taller hanging all over him and fouling him.
Even Lebron James @ 6'8" 275 lbs needs a running start to dunk over 5 guys.
Barkley could do it from a standing position in the paint. Simply Amazing.





1. Tim Duncan - Obvious choice, has the rings, never folded in the playoffs, Is one of the most consistent players to ever play the game

2. Karl Malone - Great numbers, play on both ends and was extremely consistent as well.

3. Charles Barkley - Offensive force, probably the best offensive power forward of all-time, but his poor defense puts him down here. Was capable of taking over games as well.

4. Kevin Garnett - One of the greatest defenders in the game, brings intensity and can anchor and make any defense better, His versaility is also devasting, his offensive ability was not that great compared to the guys above. Probably one of the best 2nd fiddles of all-time though.

5. Kevin McHale - Had one of the most refined post game of all-time, Also an extremely underrated defender, playing with Bird and Parish hurts him.

[big baller]

Duncan
Barkley
Malone
Garnett
McHale

[Sir Charles]

It's AMAZING how much people underrate players like Olajuwon and Barkley.
Barkley is so much better than Any Power Forward to ever play the game that it's not even funny. Even as an old man, he completely SHUT DOWN SHAQ holding him to like 10% or less FG% for an entire quarter during several playoff games during the 1999 playoffs. Shaq never got an AND1 against Barkley during the whole series. After Chuck hit Shaq, there was NO WAY Shaq was putting up a shot or a dunk after the foul.
When Barkley played 100% on defense, he could shut down ANY BIG MAN Power Forward or Center.
The only guy I've seen who Barkley couldn't shut down was Olajuwon, and that's only because Olajuwon's moves were so unpredictable that Barkley couldn't guess right. Barkely is probably a 1 in 20 billion type of athlete.
I've NEVER seen a 6'4 1/2" guy like Barkley be able to dunk in traffic while STANDING in the paint and having 5 taller hanging all over him and fouling him.
Even Lebron James @ 6'8" 275 lbs needs a running start to dunk over 5 guys.
Barkley could do it from a standing position in the paint. Simply Amazing.


:applause:

Exactly....Barkley when he wanted to play D he was a Top Defender but one must remember he never played with a Real Defensive Center up un till 1996 when he was injured and couldn`t even leap or move like before....and that was passed that Center`s prime

Well Lebron 275 lbs? Doesn`t look like it (more like 250 lbs),..he definetly has a nice muscle tone (less fat), is overall more athletic and whose game is more similar to a mix of a Stockier Magic with no Post Game and similar to Jordan`s Potence-Speed Going Un To the Basket.

Any how Barkley rarley cared about weight lifting his "Natural/Interior Strength" was WAY ABOVE ANY OTHER PLAYER IN THE NBA IN HIS TIME...Its a type of Strength that is "Inside the Muscule Tisse". For example Karl Malone`s had the "Greatest Exterior Arm Strength and ofcourse Stamina of his Time". His Arm Strength Was More to Bang...No One Dared to Move His Arms on a Dunk Barkley? He had Small but Great ands "Barkley`s Arm Strength was Mostly Interior: like the type you use When You Spank The Ball Moving Your Rists Inwards for a Rebound, like When You Pull"

He had a different Type of Body and Game than Lebron

Barkley`s Game was Interior and Vertical... while Jame`s Game is Exterior and Horizontal but Barkley had some Exterior Game while Jame`s has None Vertical/Interior Game

And yes no one believes the same i say: I`ve see Barkley guard Shaq and take him off the paint for many minutes even block Shaq`s Dunks, Hakeem`s, Ewings...people here seem to only remember the Post 1995 Charles...thats like comparing a 2001 Grant Hill to the one before or a 1996 Robinson to the one before...got nothing to do with their real levels :no:

Here is a Block by Barkley on 7`1 + 303 or 308 lbs Shaq...it was called a foul but he gets all ball.

Minutes: 2.08-2.00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMpf_xzeK2I&feature=related

Notice how Shaq just falls down backwards do to impact and Charles just comes back down in the same vertical way he jumped.

And this was an All Star Game thats not an Agressive Barkley at all. The Real Agressive Sir Charles was the one in Phily....

[Yung D-Will]

1. Tim Duncan - Obvious choice, has the rings, never folded in the playoffs, Is one of the most consistent players to ever play the game

2. Karl Malone - Great numbers, play on both ends and was extremely consistent as well.

3. Charles Barkley - Offensive force, probably the best offensive power forward of all-time, but his poor defense puts him down here. Was capable of taking over games as well.

4. Kevin Garnett - One of the greatest defenders in the game, brings intensity and can anchor and make any defense better, His versaility is also devasting, his offensive ability was not that great compared to the guys above. Probably one of the best 2nd fiddles of all-time though.

5. Kevin McHale - Had one of the most refined post game of all-time, Also an extremely underrated defender, playing with Bird and Parish hurts him.


Preety good list.

[Dementedone]

I know this might be against forum rules for bumping old threads, but it took me a couple of days to get my account activated, then I forgot about this thread, so I'll post my response now.

My list of the 5 greatest Power Forwards of all time:

Criteria: Defensive and Offensive ability, Championships/Finals MVP's, Talent, MVP's, Leadership, Influence, Other Awards/Statistics. In that order.

5. Elvin "The Big E" Hayes:

Elvin Hayes is my #5 Power forward of all time. He is the best rebounder of the group, and is one of the best offensive big men of all time. He also did not lack on the defensive side of the game like the #4 player did.




4. Charles Barkley

Sir Charles makes the list at #4, simply because of his lack of playing like a hall of famer on both sides of the floor. While he is the best offensive Power Forward of all time, he is by far the weakest defender on this list. He also lacks a championship, and while that can easily be attributed to the talent around him during his prime, he still didn't win one when paired with 2 of the 30 greatest players of all time in Hakeem Olajuwon and Scottie Pippen.





3. Karl Malone

Malone comes in at #3 on the list, Malone is not higher because A) He never won a title, B) He played with the 3rd greatest Point Guard of all time for all of his career, and C) He isn't as good defensively or as talented as the 2 ahead of him.





2. Kevin Garnett

Coming in at #2, is the guy I would take on my all-time team at Power Forward in his prime, Kevin Garnett. Garnett is really the ultimate Power Forward, hes the most athletic, he is the best passing power forward (and one of if the not the best all time passing big men), his intensity is second to none, and he is the greatest defensive power forward of all time. His offensive ability is far underrated in this thread, as KG has the best jumper of any of these guys, as well as his penetrating ability being one of if not the best of any of these players. But what really puts him over the top, is his leadership and intensity, he anchors defenses, and he also has a ring, which both Sir Charles and Malone don't.

His negatives are usually attributed as A) Not being clutch, and B) Not having a post game, and C) Not showing up in the big games. Now I ask you, look at this page http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html, and scroll down to the playoffs section. As you see, every single year the T-Wolves made the playoffs before the 03-04 season, KG was THE MAN on the team, and showed up every single series. Look at the way he played in the 03-04 season, and then looked at the way he played in the biggest game of his career, game 6 of the NBA finals. He was the best player in the most important game.

Now as far as not being clutch, he has 3 buzzer beaters, and quite a few game winners in his career. He also put on a spectacular performance in game 7 against the Kings in the 04 playoffs in the fourth quarter. He has also had numerous take overs in 4th quarters of games while with Minnesota.

As far as not having a major post game, that is something he developed later in his career. Through the majority of his career with the T-Wolves, he was a jump shooting, dribble penetrator, that developed into more of a jump shooting, big man presence on the inside. He also has only been 240-255 pounds through his career.

1. Tim Duncan

And finally the obvious choice for #1, is Tim Duncan. Although Duncan has always had the needed supporting cast to win it all, unlike KG or Charles Barkley did, if it wasn't for his incredibly play during the playoffs, the Spurs might never have won one. When it comes to the basics, Duncan might be the greatest of all time, never flashy, Duncan has always stuck by winning the game the right way. He is a prime time performer, and the most clutch PF of all time. His 4 rings make him among the few to ever win 3 or more rings, and he is also a 3 time Finals MVP. He is also a 2 time MVP, as well as never being out of the top 10 in MVP voting in his entire career (might have been broken this year, not sure).

If I had my choice between Duncan and KG in their prime, I would take KG simply because I feel during his prime KG was the better player, but due to Duncan's rings, finals MVP's, and numerous clutch playoff performances, Duncan is #1 on this list.


Those who just missed the list: Kevin McHale, Dirk Nowitzki, Bob Pettit.

[Sir Charles]

[B]Top 4 PFs of All Time are Clear To Me

[COLOR="Blue"]1- Charles Barkley: 6`4 2/4 ft - 284-252 lb Early Days/260-280 lbs Later Days

*Classic Running PF
*Non Positional Player (examples: Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson and some very few others: Hakeem and Garnett are close but Not Really Non Positional but more "Multi Skilled")
*Multi Skilled PF-SF

- Best PF of All Time in his Prime
- Most Unstoppable Offensive PF of All Time
- Biggest Offensive Missmatch in NBA History
- Best Offensive Powerforward of All Time in his Prime: 1985 to 1995
- Inside the Paint despite being 6

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

I know this might be against forum rules for bumping old threads, but it took me a couple of days to get my account activated, then I forgot about this thread, so I'll post my response now.

My list of the 5 greatest Power Forwards of all time:

Criteria: Defensive and Offensive ability, Championships/Finals MVP's, Talent, MVP's, Leadership, Influence, Other Awards/Statistics. In that order.

5. Elvin "The Big E" Hayes:

Elvin Hayes is my #5 Power forward of all time. He is the best rebounder of the group, and is one of the best offensive big men of all time. He also did not lack on the defensive side of the game like the #4 player did.




4. Charles Barkley

Sir Charles makes the list at #4, simply because of his lack of playing like a hall of famer on both sides of the floor. While he is the best offensive Power Forward of all time, he is by far the weakest defender on this list. He also lacks a championship, and while that can easily be attributed to the talent around him during his prime, he still didn't win one when paired with 2 of the 30 greatest players of all time in Hakeem Olajuwon and Scottie Pippen.





3. Karl Malone

Malone comes in at #3 on the list, Malone is not higher because A) He never won a title, B) He played with the 3rd greatest Point Guard of all time for all of his career, and C) He isn't as good defensively or as talented as the 2 ahead of him.





2. Kevin Garnett

Coming in at #2, is the guy I would take on my all-time team at Power Forward in his prime, Kevin Garnett. Garnett is really the ultimate Power Forward, hes the most athletic, he is the best passing power forward (and one of if the not the best all time passing big men), his intensity is second to none, and he is the greatest defensive power forward of all time. His offensive ability is far underrated in this thread, as KG has the best jumper of any of these guys, as well as his penetrating ability being one of if not the best of any of these players. But what really puts him over the top, is his leadership and intensity, he anchors defenses, and he also has a ring, which both Sir Charles and Malone don't.

His negatives are usually attributed as A) Not being clutch, and B) Not having a post game, and C) Not showing up in the big games. Now I ask you, look at this page http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html, and scroll down to the playoffs section. As you see, every single year the T-Wolves made the playoffs before the 03-04 season, KG was THE MAN on the team, and showed up every single series. Look at the way he played in the 03-04 season, and then looked at the way he played in the biggest game of his career, game 6 of the NBA finals. He was the best player in the most important game.

Now as far as not being clutch, he has 3 buzzer beaters, and quite a few game winners in his career. He also put on a spectacular performance in game 7 against the Kings in the 04 playoffs in the fourth quarter. He has also had numerous take overs in 4th quarters of games while with Minnesota.

As far as not having a major post game, that is something he developed later in his career. Through the majority of his career with the T-Wolves, he was a jump shooting, dribble penetrator, that developed into more of a jump shooting, big man presence on the inside. He also has only been 240-255 pounds through his career.

1. Tim Duncan

And finally the obvious choice for #1, is Tim Duncan. Although Duncan has always had the needed supporting cast to win it all, unlike KG or Charles Barkley did, if it wasn't for his incredibly play during the playoffs, the Spurs might never have won one. When it comes to the basics, Duncan might be the greatest of all time, never flashy, Duncan has always stuck by winning the game the right way. He is a prime time performer, and the most clutch PF of all time. His 4 rings make him among the few to ever win 3 or more rings, and he is also a 3 time Finals MVP. He is also a 2 time MVP, as well as never being out of the top 10 in MVP voting in his entire career (might have been broken this year, not sure).

If I had my choice between Duncan and KG in their prime, I would take KG simply because I feel during his prime KG was the better player, but due to Duncan's rings, finals MVP's, and numerous clutch playoff performances, Duncan is #1 on this list.


Those who just missed the list: Kevin McHale, Dirk Nowitzki, Bob Pettit. :applause: Great list.

[Dementedone]

:applause: Great list.

Thanks.

[Sir Charles]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Top 4 PFs of All Time are Clear To Me

[COLOR="Blue"]1- Charles Barkley: 6`4 2/4 ft - 284-252 lb Early Days/260-280 lbs Later Days

*Classic Running PF
*Non Positional Player (examples: Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson and some very few others: Hakeem and Garnett are close but Not Really Non Positional but more "Multi Skilled")
*Multi Skilled PF-SF

- Best PF of All Time in his Prime
- Most Unstoppable Offensive PF of All Time
- Biggest Offensive Missmatch in NBA History
- Best Offensive Powerforward of All Time in his Prime: 1985 to 1995
- Inside the Paint despite being 6

[RocketGreatness]

:bowdown: :applause: :oldlol: :D
You know I've ever seen anybody make an excuse or even saying that the 2000's is a weak ERA. Tim Duncan won a title in 99, 03 and 05 despite the same rules in the 80s and 90s.

Tim Duncan might have played like a scared bunny defensively at times, but he was still a very smart and good defender not to mention his pick n roll was solid. I have no problem with Barkley above Malone, but I do have a problem with Barkley over Duncan.

[Big#50]

Tim Duncan




Malone
Barkley
KG
Dirk

[Dementedone]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Top 4 PFs of All Time are Clear To Me

[COLOR="Blue"]1- Charles Barkley: 6`4 2/4 ft - 284-252 lb Early Days/260-280 lbs Later Days

*Classic Running PF
*Non Positional Player (examples: Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson and some very few others: Hakeem and Garnett are close but Not Really Non Positional but more "Multi Skilled")
*Multi Skilled PF-SF

- Best PF of All Time in his Prime
- Most Unstoppable Offensive PF of All Time
- Biggest Offensive Missmatch in NBA History
- Best Offensive Powerforward of All Time in his Prime: 1985 to 1995
- Inside the Paint despite being 6

[RocketGreatness]

Sorry, someone who doesn't play defense can't be put above 2 of the greatest defensive big men of all time. No matter how efficient he was offensively, he also never won a ring, even on a team with Hakeem and Pippen.
You forgot Clyde The Glide too. Barkley has been hating on the Rockets ever since he failed to win a ring despite playing with 3 hall of fame players.

[Dementedone]

You forgot Clyde The Glide too. Barkley has been hating on the Rockets ever since he failed to win a ring despite playing with 3 hall of fame players.

Thats true, he did play with The Glide in 98 too.

[gxL]

1-CHARLES BARKLEY: 6`4 3/4 ft (284-252, 265 lbs mostly)

"Multi-Positional" PF (Bird and Magic..examples)

- Most Talented PF of All Time

- Greatest Offensive Skill Wise Powerforward of All Time by Miles

- Shot 58.13% for his Season Career on 21.6 PPG and 55.13....2-Point FG% for his Play-Off Career on 22.5 PPG...Shows You How Unstoppable He Really Was in his Prime.

- Most All Around Skilled Offensive PF of All Time: Second Best "Post Player" at the PF Spot Ever (after McHale), Best "Fadeaway Shooter", Best "Off The Dribble 1 on 1 Player Scorer", Best "Spin Moves Ever" (Precusor of Shaq`s Black Tornados), Great "Mid Range Shooter", Best Ballhandling and Most Famous for his "Coast to Coasts" Dunks and Passes like no other PF.

- Most Unstoppable Offensively PF of All Time as Whole

*Most Doubled Teamed and Sometimes Tripled Teamed Player of the Late 80s and Early 90s by Help of Perimeter Players

*Player that Created Most Ilegal Defenses of the Late 80s and Early 90ss

- Second Most Skilled "Offensive Post Player"
- Better "Rebounder" than Tim and Karl
- Better "Passer" than Tim and Karl
- Second Best Assiter (but he was the one most doubled teamed and that recieved most defensive rotations)
- Best "Game Creator" at the PF Spot Ever! (Ballhandling and Guard Instincts)
- Bestr Floor Defender at the PF Spot Ever!
- Highest SPG Avg than Any Other PF Ever!
- Fourth or Fifth Post Best Post Defender
- Superior Shot Blocker than Karl...
- Clutch Play: Along Wilt Chamberlain the Players with Most 40 Pts and 20 Rbd games in Play-Offs History Per Game Played.
- Intimidation: Best of All Pfs Ever!
- Athletically:

1st Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time! by Far!
1st Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Strongest As a Finisher (Malone 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1
1st Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Most Agil (Garnett 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Leaper of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th in Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time


* TOP 5 STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* TOP 10 EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* TOP 9 SEAON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* TOP 8 PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Flaws:

-Lazy on Post Defense in the Beggining of the Game
-Excesive 3-Point FGAs
-Off Court Indiscipline and Work Ethics

Team Flaws:

*Weak Supporting Cast after Moses left Phily beyond 86 (Aging Team, Julius 34-37 years old). No Interior Defending Help (No Eaton, No Robinson) and The Game was Not Designed for Him Initially in Phily.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2-Tim Duncan: 6`11 3/4 ft (248-260 lbs)

CF

- Best "Interior Defending" PF of All Time
- Fourth Best "Offensive Impact" PF of All Time
- Third Best "Offensive Skillwise" PF of All Time (Barkley and McHale are 1st and 2nd): Great Ballhandler for his 6`11 3/4 ft frame and Second or Third Best 1 on 1 Offensive Game PF of All Time
-Third Most Skilled Post PF of All Time
- Fourth "Most Unstoppable" PF of All Time as Whole
- Fourth "Most Unstoppable in the "Open Floor"
- Second or Third Best "Rebounder" of the Top 5 PFs (Barkley 1st)
- Third Best "Offensive Post Player" of the Top 5 PFs (McHale and Barkley are 1st and 2nd)
- Best "Shot Blocker" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- 3rd Best Assister
- Good Game Creator and Passer for his Height
- Second Best Clutch PF of All Time
- Fourth Most Intimidating
- Athletically:

4th Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Most Agil (Garnett 1st)
4th Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time

* TOP 18 STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* TOP 18 EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* TOP 7 SEAON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* TOP 4 PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Flaws:

-Weak Floor Defender (Too Slow)
-Not Intimidating Enough
-Not Very Athletic

Team Flaws:

- None

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3- Karl Malone: 6`9 ft (257-270 lbs)

Classical PF

- Most "Unstoppable" In The "Open Floo"r of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Second "Most Unstoppalbe" PF of All Time as Whole
- Third Best "Offensive Impact" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Fourth Best "Offensive Skill Wise" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time: Third Best Mid Range Shot and 4th Best Offensive 1 on 1 PF of All Time...Usually lived off Fadeaways and Finishest (Pick and Rolls, Fast Breaks)
- Fourth Best "Offensive Post Player" of the Top 5 PFs (McHale and Barkley are 1st and 2nd, Duncan 3rd)
-Third Best Mid Range Shooter of the Top 5 PFs of All Time (Barkley and McHale 1st and 2nd)
- Second Best "Fadeaway Shooter" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time (Barkley 1st)
- Third Best "Rebounder"
- Third Best "Floor Defender"
- Second Highest SPG Avg from the PF Spot of All Time
- Second Best "FT Shooter" of of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Third Best Passing PF of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Thir Best Assister
- Above Average Game Creator
- Second Most Intimidating
- Athletically:

2nd Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Most Agil (Garnett 1st, Barkley 2nd) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time

* TOP 16 STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* TOP 17 EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* TOP 12 SEAON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* TOP 29 PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Flaws:

- Offensively Skillwise Lacking for his 1st Years (Average Ball Handler for a PF, Hard Time Designign his Own Shot Initially before Developing his Fadeaway)
- Not a Great Shot Blocker
- Not a Clutch Player
- Not The Highest of B-Ball IQs

Team Flaws:

-Needed More "Multi-Positional" Player Types (since he and Stockton where not: they where pure PFs and PGs)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4-Kevin Garnett: 7`0 (220-237 lbs)

Semi "Multi Positional" SF/PF

- Best "All Around Defensive" PF of All Time!
- Third Best Interior Defender PF of All Time
- Fifth Best "Offensive Impact" PF of All Time
- Fifth "Most Unstoppable" PF of All Time
- Third Best "Offensive Skillwise" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time: Ballhandling, Passing Game, Agility, Speed, Quickness, Potence and 7`0 frame helped create missmatches: 4th Best Mid Range Shot and Second or Third in 1 on 1 Offensive Game Siutations of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
-Third Best "Finisher" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Fifth Best "Offensive Post Player" of the Top 5 PFs
- Second or Third Best Rebounder of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Second Best Passing Game
- Best Assiter due to Missmatches
- Great Game Creator
- Third Most Intimidating
- Athletically:

3rd Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
3rd Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Most Agil (Garnett 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
2nd Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time


Flaws:

- Lacking Offensive Impact
- Unclutch Offensively
- No Real Post Game

Team Flaws:

-Weak Casts all his Life untill Boston

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kevin McHale: 6`10 ft (225-240 lbs)

FC

- Most "Skilled Offensive Post Play PF" of All Time
- 2nd Best "Interior Defender" PF of All Time
- 2nd Best "Offensive Impact" PF of All Time
- 4th "Most Unstoppable" PF of All Time
- Fifth "Offensive Skillwise" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time: Lacking Ballhandling, Lacking Passing Game, Average Agility, Lacking Speed, Lacking Quickness and Lacking Potence...Lived Off the Post : but thats ok becaue he is the Second in "Offensive Impact" , "Most Skilled Post Player" PF of All Time and had the Second Best Mid Range Shot *Im his Prime 1st)
- Fifth "Finisher" of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Best FT Shooter of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Fifth Third Best Rebounder of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Fifth Passing Game of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Fifth Assiter Missmatches of the Top 5 PFs of All TIme
- Fifth Game Creator of of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
- Third Most Clutch (Prooven in the Finals!)
- Athletically:

5th Most Potent of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
4th Strongest In the Low Post of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Strongest As a Finisher of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Strongest Facing the Basket 1 on 1 of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Fastest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Quickest of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Most Agil (Garnett 1st) of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
5th Leap of the Top 5 PFs of All Time
1st Wingspam of the Top 5 PFs of All Time (8 ft Wingspam!)

* STATISTICAL +/- PLayer of All Time
* EFF (Fundamentals and All Around Skills) Player of All Time
* SEASON PER Player of All Time (Impact)
* PLAY-OFF PER Player of All Time (Impact)

Can`t Be Masured because he Played in an Era of Great Stacked Up Teams: He was Second or Third Offensive Fiddle Up Untill the 1985-86 Season. Parish Top 5 C of the Early 80s, Bird 1st or 2nd Best SF of the 80s, DJ Top 5 Best PGs of the Early 80s etc

Flaws:

-Weak Floor Defender (too slow)
-Not Very Athletic
-Not A Great Rebounder or Passer
-Not an Intimidator

Team Flaws:

Absolutley None!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barkley is the Only Player to be in Top 10 in Statistical +/-, EFF and PER....

Barkley = Greatest PF of All Time :confusedshrug:
he's the greatest pf of all time to not win a championship, if not the greatest.

:cheers:

[NBASTATMAN]

1. Tim Duncan - Obvious choice, has the rings, never folded in the playoffs, Is one of the most consistent players to ever play the game

2. Karl Malone - Great numbers, play on both ends and was extremely consistent as well.

3. Charles Barkley - Offensive force, probably the best offensive power forward of all-time, but his poor defense puts him down here. Was capable of taking over games as well.

4. Kevin Garnett - One of the greatest defenders in the game, brings intensity and can anchor and make any defense better, His versaility is also devasting, his offensive ability was not that great compared to the guys above. Probably one of the best 2nd fiddles of all-time though.

5. Kevin McHale - Had one of the most refined post game of all-time, Also an extremely underrated defender, playing with Bird and Parish hurts him.


Petit,

[Sir Charles]

Sorry, someone who doesn't play defense can't be put above 2 of the greatest defensive big men of all time, who's offense is only slightly worse then Barkley's. No matter how efficient he was offensively, he also never won a ring, even on a team with Hakeem and Pippen.

He is the PF with the Highest SPG Avg of All Time and He Ranks Superior to Kobe Bryant in Densive Rating yet this overhyped player has been Defensive Team selections because of the MEDIA HYPE-OPINION BASED CRAP


Barkley has always been better than any PF he faced in his prime between 1985/86 to 1995 its laughable and he did it with far Inferior Casts than the Top Superstars of the League...

Top 10 EFF of All time
Top 10 PER of All Time
Top 5 Statistical +/- of All Time

Real Impact.

Get Real...

[Showtime]

Dirk doesn't even belong in the top 10, let alone top 5. C'mon now.

[Sir Charles]

You forgot Clyde The Glide too. Barkley has been hating on the Rockets ever since he failed to win a ring despite playing with 3 hall of fame players.

You do`t built your team around 3 Offensive SUperstars passed their primes: ages 34-35...since they will not responde to role player adjustments that require more physical stamina (except for those players used to that like Rodman) and Barkley was injured for most of the 97-98 season and was probaby about to take the Rebounding title. Yet he still was the Most Efficient Scorer and Among the Best Passers of that Team

In 1999 The Whole Rocket Squad puss-ied out on the Lakers while Barkley took the load on his own averaging incredible 23.5 PPG, 13.8 RPG on 52% FG with a crippled body and destroyed back and knees.

Anyone that Saw Barkley between 1985-86 to 1995 knows he was the Best PF at his Position but HATERS (Media + Stern + Voters Spiting on the Little Girl Crap) and Jazz fans...


Barkley owned everyone in his Prime...

:no:

[RocketGreatness]

He is the PF with the Highest SPG Avg of All Time and He Ranks Superior to Kobe Bryant in Densive Rating yet this overhyped player has been Defensive Team selections because of the MEDIA HYPE-OPINION BASED CRAP


Barkley has always been better than any PF he faced in his prime between 1985/86 to 1995 its laughable and he did it with far Inferior Casts than the Top Superstars of the League...

Top 10 EFF of All time
Top 10 PER of All Time
Top 5 Statistical +/- of All Time

Real Impact.

Get Real...I love your stats, but there is more to the NBA than stats. Barkley was a sub-par defender plain and simple, even Barkley could tell you that. He got steals, yeah, so did Allen Iverson and he was also a poor defender. Winning titles and winning it as the main dog will always be taken first before stats. Which is why Duncan > Barkley.

[Dementedone]

You do`t built your team around 3 Offensive SUperstars passed their primes: ages 34-35...since they will not responde to role player adjustments that require more physical stamina (except for those players used to that like Rodman) and Barkley was injured for most of the 97-98 season and was probaby about to take the Rebounding title. Yet he still was the Most Efficient Scorer and Among the Best Passers of that Team

In 1999 The Whole Rocket Squad puss-ied out on the Lakers while Barkley took the load on his own averaging incredible 23.5 PPG, 13.8 RPG on 52% FG with a crippled body and destroyed back and knees.

Anyone that Saw Barkley between 1985-86 to 1995 knows he was the Best PF at his Position but HATERS (Media + Stern + Voters Spiting on the Little Girl Crap) and Jazz fans...


Barkley owned everyone in his Prime...

:no:

Its ok to have a favorite player, and to have a small bias for them (like me with KG), but being irrational doesn't make much sense. Someone who doesn't play defense, has no rings, and is only slightly better then Malone, KG, and Duncan on offense, can't be put above them no matter how efficient his offense was. Defense wins championships and makes a better player, offense sells tickets.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Alas Barkley be none other than the following in all-time power forward ranks.

#1 ball handler
#1 rebounder
#1 passer
#1 scorer
#1 offensive mismatch


This be the key to thou success which shan't be denied by the creedence of the wise man doubters.

[Sir Charles]

Its ok to have a favorite player, and to have a small bias for them (like me with KG), but being irrational doesn't make much sense. Someone who doesn't play defense, has no rings, and is only slightly better then Malone, KG, and Duncan on offense, can't be put above them no matter how efficient his offense was. Defense wins championships and makes a better player, offense sells tickets.

How can he be "slightly" better when he was the Most Doubled and Tripled (by help of Perimeter Players) PF designing HIS OWN SHOOTING...

Player that Created Most Ilegal Defenses....in his Time.

While Scoring 58.13% and 55.13% (21.6 PPG and 22.5 PPG) from the 2-Point FG on only 12.9 and 14.5 2-Point FGA PG for 16 years..

That is God-like...Not Just "Slightly" Better :no:

The next player to him in terms of Efficiency is Kevin McHale 55-56%: Second Option Scorer that had the Best Passing SF of All TIme for His Whole Career. Great Passers in DJ, Maxwell, Prime Ainge and even Walton!

Nor he had Stockton and a WHole System Designed for Him To Score...

All the other dudes shot 51-50% or Less from the field if you exclude their 3-Pointers like Barkley...

They are 5-7% Less Efficient Scorers that is the difference between a 43% Scorer to a 50% Scorer..

BIG BIG OFFENSIVE DIFFERENCE...Not Even Taking into account how much preocupation that player took on the Opposing Defenses.

And Barkley could play D...he was lazy at the begginings of games but you don`t average the Highest SPG Avg for the PF spot and almost 1 BPG (at 6`4 3/4) if you are totally lazy and a bad defender.

*Don`t give me that Steal Gamble Crap or that Steals are "Just Bad desicions or passings from the opposers" ...Then I Coul Say Shot Blocking is also due to "Bad Shot Selection and Forcing Shots from Bad Angles" etc..

He was also the Best Rebounder from all those mention and YES BETTER PASSER...Garnett`assit avg is becuse he played SF too...and he could like Barkley be a Missmatch (McHale, Malone and Duncan not) but Passing Wise ..its not even close...Only Webber and Coleman are close to the Passing skill Barkley had.

*Ive heard commentators say in games live he was the best Passer from the F spot they saw after Barry and Bird (ofcourse this was before James)

Not to mention 40 pts and 20 rbd games in the Play-Offs only Shaq in the last 30 years has as much...

Considering the Bad Teamates he had In his Prime and COMPARED to those other PFs casts ets even more insane...

A similar story goes for Lebron but Atleast he as a Center to Anchor Team and GREA DEFENDERS both Perimter and Interior...to cover his back...Barkley had none with the SUns or the Sixers (post Malone, Dr J was 34-37 years get ReaL)...

Barley is by far the Most Hated Player of All TIme, Envied and Underrated...its insane...

There are many reasons:

- Outspoken Arrogant Demenor (ala Wilt)
- Truth Teller
- His Off Court Acitivties
- His Overweight and Short Frame =

In Other Players Minds, Media and Refs eetc this was the constant"

"THERE IS NO WAY THIS FAT SHORT DUDE CAN DOMINATE THE WAY HE DOES...NO WAY WE CAN LET HIM DO THAT WHILE TAKING IN YOUR FACES" :no:

Reason why he is still active in basketball because the REAL WITNESSES of his Game will never forget his Peek and he is a must on TNT (for Real Fans of him not the ones that laugh at his witty ways...which ofcourse are there for us to enjoy...but tehre are other reasons for him there)

There are few of us Real Barkley Fans...thank god for that!

Barkley ANGRY and Motivated in his Prime would break Duncan`s Back in a Snap while going for a Rebound or Scoring on him. Duncan would be fouled out by 2nd quarter under todays puss-rules...

:sleeping

[Sir Charles]

Alas Barkley be none other than the following in all-time power forward ranks.

#1 ball handler
#1 rebounder
#1 passer
#1 scorer
#1 offensive mismatch


This be the key to thou success which shan't be denied by the creedence of the wise man doubters.

Amen thy oldschooler :applause: :cheers:

[mrhoopfan]

Its ok to have a favorite player, and to have a small bias for them (like me with KG), but being irrational doesn't make much sense. Someone who doesn't play defense, has no rings, and is only slightly better then Malone, KG, and Duncan on offense, can't be put above them no matter how efficient his offense was. Defense wins championships and makes a better player, offense sells tickets.


How come Nash is a two time mvp:confusedshrug:

[mrhoopfan]

People forget that Barkley was THE BEST player for the dream team in 92

[Sir Charles]

People forget that Barkley was THE BEST player for the dream team in 92

What about the 1996 Team? Who was also the Captain? :confusedshrug:

[Manute for Ever!]

Where does Sir Charles get all these stuff? He can't be writing all these stuff can he?

The typos and poor grammar says he does...

[RocketGreatness]

umm...Question for Sir Charles, When you meant Top 10 in Efficiency, did you actually mean Top 10 in offensive rating? Which is the same top 10 that Steve Kerr is also in? I don't think that's the most credible source out there.

Also, Karl Malone is right behind him in steals, Barkley isn't ahead of Malone by that much, so the only stat you really have with Barkley > Malone is PER.

Malone is better than Barkley, but I would say Barkley's peak was more dominant than Malone's.



Barkley ANGRY and Motivated in his Prime would break Duncan`s Back in a Snap while going for a Rebound or Scoring on him. Duncan would be fouled out by 2nd quarter under todays puss-rules...

:sleeping
:oldlol:

[White Chocolate]

How come Nash is a two time mvp:confusedshrug:


Any NBA fan with half a brain knows he BARELY won his first MVP, and certainly did not deserve his second one. Nash is going to be the most overrated player in the HOF in 10 years.

[White Chocolate]

Its ok to have a favorite player, and to have a small bias for them (like me with KG), but being irrational doesn't make much sense. Someone who doesn't play defense, has no rings, and is only slightly better then Malone, KG, and Duncan on offense, can't be put above them no matter how efficient his offense was. Defense wins championships and makes a better player, offense sells tickets.


Malone was a better defender than Barkley, yet he doesn't have any rings either. :confusedshrug:

[Norcaliblunt]

You know what I find funny is how old school defensive players like Bill Russell get hated by kids on ISH, saying he was an offensive liability that wouldn't last 2 seconds in the league today. But all these defensive oriented players of today are revered as gods.

[dbugz]

add Elthon Brand on the list. - loot :roll:

[Sir Charles]

umm...Question for Sir Charles, When you meant Top 10 in Efficiency, did you actually mean Top 10 in offensive rating? Which is the same top 10 that Steve Kerr is also in? I don't think that's the most credible source out there.

Also, Karl Malone is right behind him in steals, Barkley isn't ahead of Malone by that much, so the only stat you really have with Barkley > Malone is PER.

Malone is better than Barkley, but I would say Barkley's peak was more dominant than Malone's.


:oldlol:

Nope this...same at PER but not taking into account Per Minute but Overall EFF.

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders
Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16
11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 LeBron James 27.20 6
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18

Regarding Offensive Rating.

You Must Compare that to Superstars whom have the Offense Sorrounded by Themselves and Ofcourse the Level of Teamates that can make your Offese Much Easier.

By the way Offensive Rating should also include Number of Possesions with the Ball.

Magic has the Highest Offensive Rating per Possesions of the Ball of All Time
Barkley has the 2nd Highest Offensive Rating per Possesions of the Ball

But you must also include what Teamates you have around and Magic had everyone to facilitate his Offensive Job

Barkely didn`t

Steve Kerr has a Hight Offensive Rating because of the Double Teaming on Jordan and Spreading of the Defense by the Triange Offense of Pippen and MJ....so he could hit wide open shots and when working together with these two monsters in the offensive edge its easier. He never had to design his own shooting

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html

Notice that in Offensive Rating Barkley is one of 2 PFs in the Top 10 at 7th

Close by are ofcourse Kevin McHale at 10th whom ofcourse had Bird-Maxwell-DJ-Ainge-Walton feeding him the ball at the right moments for all of his career...Barkley didn`t...

Props to Dantley: To Me a TOp 10 SF of All Time (If he played SG a top 3) whom is right there behined McHale and Barkley at 11th

Dantley and Barkley pretty much had to do everything under one...wich is a amazing to still have a hight offensive rating while the whole offense is dependant and created of of you.

[RocketGreatness]

He is the PF with the Highest SPG Avg of All Time and He Ranks Superior to Kobe Bryant in Densive Rating yet this overhyped player has been Defensive Team selections because of the MEDIA HYPE-OPINION BASED CRAP
.
Um....That's because he plays power forward that's the only reason why his defensive rating is higher than Kobe's. Kobe's rating is almost the same as Antoine Walker, so we know that's not credible.

I'll make it clear for you Sir Charles, Prime and peak wise Barkley was superior than Malone without question. If are talking about career, I have to say Malone slightly. It's honestly like picking Hakeem or Shaq.

[Sir Charles]

Um....That's because he plays power forward that's the only reason why his defensive rating is higher than Kobe's. Kobe's rating is almost the same as Antoine Walker, so we know that's not credible.

I'll make it clear for you Sir Charles, Prime and peak wise Barkley was superior than Malone without question. If are talking about career, I have to say Malone slightly. It's honestly like picking Hakeem or Shaq.

Then how do you also explain Barkley being in the TOP in OFFENSIVE RATING from the PF Spot (with no real great passers compared to other greats, not only at PG but everywhere..)while most Guards are There? :confusedshrug:

How Do You Explain Jordan`s Impressive Defensive Rating being in the Top 5-10 for around 8 to 10 seasons with not the Greatest of Centers? while Kobe has had Real Great Offensive and Defensive Centers in Shaq, Gasol, Odom, Bynum....

PER ofcourse favors Big Men but thats how the game is Suppose to be Played :rolleeyes (something only pre late 90s ballers know ofcourse)...a Guards Job is To Make The Frontline Score.....and if they don`t have a Great Offensive Frontline (which Kobe doesn`t know anything about, MJ did suffer that:rolleyes: ) then shoot more and efficiently or attack the rim (Bryant not even close to MJ, Drexler and many others...).

Its more like Malone had a BETTER CAREER....just like in the case of Wilt and Russel..

but Barkley WAS THEE BETTER PLAYER.

You don`t get better after age 33.....

Barkley would dominate Malone most of the time from ages 22 to 32 (Total Peek Prime. Game Wise, Physical Wise etc)

And then as Barkley`s back injuries and busted knees took over his body then Malone ge the best of his benefits...

If Bryant has big injuries this season and he totally dominated that other Great SG that is right up there with him and then Bryant never playes the same for the next 5-6 seasons that should not take away the fact that Kobe Was the Better Player becuase for more than a Decade at Paralel ages of that other he Was Better.

Barkley > Malone...clear to anyone who watched them both play...other than Jazz-Stockton-Malone fans ofcourse...

[unbreakable]

Barkley's 6'4 ass would get destroyed by Timothy.

[Manute for Ever!]

Barkley's 6'4 ass would get destroyed by Timothy.

This is the truth, but I bet Sir Charles has a stat tucked away somewhere that suggests he wouldn't:rolleyes:

[Toizumi]

This is the truth, but I bet Sir Charles has a stat tucked away somewhere that suggests he wouldn't:rolleyes:


true that... Barkley is a legend and a HOF'er but TD is nr1. :confusedshrug:
Sir Charles comes up with lame stats, but stats dont tell the story. TD is the franchise.. puts up great numbers, has been very consistent throughout his career, won 4 championships.. it's so evident. Yes he played on a solid team, but so did jordan, shaq, bill russell and all the other greats who won championships... :confusedshrug:

I could do a Kobe>Jordan ,Sir Charles style

Kobe - offensively most gifted ever
Best jumpshooting form of all time
faced constant double and triple teams
scored 81 pts the second highest ever!!
made a lot of all defensive teams:hammerhead:
won 3 rings with shaq but never had good teammates after that
never played with a guy like put pippen
very underrated passer :eek:
never backed down confrontation
hated because of his demeanor


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _

MJ. second best to kobe
very good at most aspects of the game :banana:
wasnt a true winner, never got anywhere without pippen or phil Jackson (If Kobe had those 2 he would've won at least 12 rings and be considered GOAT) :rockon:
considered the greatest because of:violin: constant media attention, but his game is nothing in comparison to kobe's
Great scorer and put up great numbers:pimp:

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _

[chains5000]

:oldlol:

[unbreakable]

true that... Barkley is a legend and a HOF'er but TD is nr1. :confusedshrug:
Sir Charles comes up with lame stats, but stats dont tell the story. TD is the franchise.. puts up great numbers, has been very consistent throughout his career, won 4 championships.. it's so evident. Yes he played on a solid team, but so did jordan, shaq, bill russell and all the other greats who won championships... :confusedshrug:

I could do a Kobe>Jordan ,Sir Charles style

Kobe - offensively most gifted ever
Best jumpshooting form of all time
faced constant double and triple teams
scored 81 pts the second highest ever!!
made a lot of all defensive teams:hammerhead:
won 3 rings with shaq but never had good teammates after that
never played with a guy like put pippen
very underrated passer :eek:
never backed down confrontation
hated because of his demeanor


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _

MJ. second best to kobe
very good at most aspects of the game :banana:
wasnt a true winner, never got anywhere without pippen or phil Jackson (If Kobe had those 2 he would've won at least 12 rings and be considered GOAT) :rockon:
considered the greatest because of:violin: constant media attention, but his game is nothing in comparison to kobe's
Great scorer and put up great numbers:pimp:

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _


:bowdown: :bowdown:

[truethat23]

My Top Five...

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Kevin McHale
5. Kevin Garnett

[JustinJDW]

Sir Charles is posting a lot of stats, but he is doing a pretty good job at agnoring the most important stat of all, Championships. Let's take a look at them, shall we.

Championships

Tim Duncan: 4 Championships, 4-0 in the Finals.
Charles Barkley: 0 Championships, 0-1 in the Finals

You can post all the little stats you want, but in the end, what the hell do you think all these stats are suppose to accumulate to? Yeah, that's right...Championships.

/thread

[Sir Charles]

Yeah Barkley might have been 6`4 3/4 ft but he could leap 39 inches of the ground while carrying 300 lbs on his body!. He also had the quickest double and triple jumps for rebounds in NBA history, was as Quick as a Guard and had a Shaq frea-like torso with the potence of Lebron James going coast to coast. His floor strength was ofcourse unmatched in NBA History.

And for those idiots who say Duncan would destroy Barkley here you go:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=duncati01

Barkley (ages 34-36) vs Duncan (21-23)

*Barkley after 1994-95 season played injured most of the time...

Barkley:

MPG: 34.5 (Playing Lesser)

FG%: 47.2%
2-Point FG%: 50%.
PPG: 17.0
FG%: 47.2%
RPG 11.8
ASPG: 2.4
SPG: 1.9
BPG: 0.57
3-Point FG%: 25%

Duncan:

MPG: 38.5 (Playing Longer)

FG%. 46.4%
2-Point FG%: 46.4%
PPG: 16.0
RPG: 10.0
ASPG: 4.0
SPG: 0.29
BPG: 1.86
3-Point FG%: 0%

:violin:

There is no other skill that Duncan has over Barkley other than Shot Blocking clearly.. Maybe on debatable and THE REST BARKLEY OWNS!..

[Mark Jackson]

Sir Charles is posting a lot of stats, but he is doing a pretty good job at agnoring the most important stat of all, Championships. Let's take a look at them, shall we.

Championships

Tim Duncan: 4 Championships, 4-0 in the Finals.
Charles Barkley: 0 Championships, 0-1 in the Finals

You can post all the little stats you want, but in the end, what the hell do you think all these stats are suppose to accumulate to? Yeah, that's right...Championships.

/thread

:applause:

[D-Rose]

Barkley himself says Duncan is the Greatest PF ever.

[west]

LMAO at Toizumi's post.:lol

[RocketGreatness]

Sir Charles is posting a lot of stats, but he is doing a pretty good job at agnoring the most important stat of all, Championships. Let's take a look at them, shall we.

Championships

Tim Duncan: 4 Championships, 4-0 in the Finals.
Charles Barkley: 0 Championships, 0-1 in the Finals

You can post all the little stats you want, but in the end, what the hell do you think all these stats are suppose to accumulate to? Yeah, that's right...Championships.

/thread
Sir Charles will have a stat somewhere on basketball reference, that shows Barkley has a championship or would have if he played with the Spurs. :oldlol:

Does anybody even realize that Sir Charles is just talking about Barkley in his prime? If being dominant only your prime means everything then that would mean that Grant Hill could be a Top 5 small forward of all-time and Penny Hardaway could be a Top 5 guard of all-time.

I will say this though as a Rocket fan, Hakeem never had trouble checking Barkley, while Malone would usually end up giving Hakeem trouble. That is one of the few reasons why we got Barkley in Houston, we wanted to win it all and have Karl Malone contained. We failed year after year sadly.

[john_d]

1. Rodman
2-5 who cares

bahahhaha... rodman would all those guys cry

[Sir Charles]

Sir Charles will have a stat somewhere on basketball reference, that shows Barkley has a championship or would have if he played with the Spurs. :oldlol:

Does anybody even realize that Sir Charles is just talking about Barkley in his prime? If being dominant only your prime means everything then that would mean that Grant Hill could be a Top 5 small forward of all-time and Penny Hardaway could be a Top 5 guard of all-time.

I will say this though as a Rocket fan, Hakeem never had trouble checking Barkley, while Malone would usually end up giving Hakeem trouble. That is one of the few reasons why we got Barkley in Houston, we wanted to win it all and have Karl Malone contained. We failed year after year sadly.

Man People forge to Easily....:oldlol: :banghead:

You should check out Barkley before he went to Houston before his knee injuries and back injures of 1994-95 (he was set to retire that season). He forced Robinson and Hakeem out of the center position many times to guard him.

Malone was owned by Barkley every time from 1985 to 1995...Malone rarely wanted to even guard him before 1996 to difficult to stop: ballhandling, potence, quickness, spins, speed and leap for Rebounds....infact mostly afraid of fouling out every time. Most teams had to put 3 players (SFs-PFs-Cs) rotating on guarding Charles those days.

As Walton said in 1997 : "Isn`t Strange to see Malone outplaying Barkley? Just a couple of years ago and back in 1993, Barkley would Dominate Malone Ever Time"

*Funny People Forget Easily when Its Convinent to Them ....but we all know why (Barkley most hated and envied player of his era).....:oldlol:

No other player had more defensive rotations than Barkley in order to keep the team from fouling out :pimp:

When Barkley went to Houston as a Role Player he couldn`t even move or ofcourse leap like before and in 1999 he played the hardest against the Lakers while other players did`t care ofcourse they had won their champioship....

Get Real Barkley owned everyone in his Prime...Unmatched of any PF when healthy.

:sleeping