In their prime: Kobe Bryant vs. Tracy McGrady

[Abraham Lincoln]

Alas we have had the fortune of watching both marvelous athletes in their primes during the same season being 2002-2003. Thou also shan't forget their epic regular season battles. It be unfortunate how their career's went opposite after their peak peformace basketball season that year.

Who be the better playmaker? Scorer? Defender? I shan't but hope this topic concludes well.


http://i42.tinypic.com/hta7gj.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/5ydvle.jpg

[CasterL]

for two seasons mac was 2 me the best swingman in the game

he was a better scorer than kobe
a better playmaker
although not as good of a defender but still good when he tried

[Duncan21formvp]

Mcgrady for peak year, but Kobe for span of 3-4 years.

[plowking]

Kobe's best year and length of prime were better.

McGrady only really had 3 great seasons. Kobe has strung together about 8 or 9.

[iTruWarrior]

Since Kobe is in his prime now, we really cannot compare. Tracy was a monster down in Orlando though, it's too bad he had terrible luck down there.

I'll go with T-Mac for now, because I loved what he did in Orlando. I'm sure Kobe will surpass him.

[Juges8932]

That's tough. I would say Kobe, but I can understand somebody people picking T-Mac.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

'03 Magic McGrady stretch was better than anything Kobe had ever done.

[indiefan23]

Alas we have had the fortune of watching both marvelous athletes in their primes during the same season being 2002-2003. Thou also shan't forget their epic regular season battles. It be unfortunate how their career's went opposite after their peak peformace basketball season that year.

Who be the better playmaker? Scorer? Defender? I shan't but hope this topic concludes well.


http://i42.tinypic.com/hta7gj.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/5ydvle.jpg

In their prime? I think its T-Mac. He didn't have a great team ever though. His career got sucked down with Grant Hill. I dunno, maybe people think I'm crazy, but I think this is Kobe's career year right now. Its the one I respect him for the most anyway. And I don't respect Kobe Bryant.

[Bigsmoke]

Kobe

[v-unit]

T-Mac got me into basketball seriously. I watched him play and fell inlove with his style. poetry in motion. I got serious about basketball from him, not just casual anymore; I mimicked my game and everything around him.

[Bigsmoke]

T-Mac got me into basketball seriously. I watched him play and fell inlove with his style. poetry in motion. I got serious about basketball from him, not just casual anymore; I mimicked my game and everything around him.


to me, Tmac plays just to show off his stats than to win...

[v-unit]

to me, Tmac plays just to show off his stats than to win...

Man I dont know..He looked like a winner in my eyes. I just remember all those clutch moments he had.

I'm never going to forget how he ALWAYS torched the Raptors when he played us AND killed us.

[TMAC-RAPTORS]

to me, Tmac plays just to show off his stats than to win...

Why? Because he has sleepy eyes?

[amfirst]

WTF, T-mac is overated.

[ronron15]

real close call

disregarding the length of being great and just looking at the tip top point of their career, i give it to Kobe cause of 81 points. it's just greatness

[YAWN]

t=mac has arguably the best 35 second prime of all time. tmac = goat

[Xsatyr]

WTF, T-mac is overated.
I don't know, prime TMac was nasty but his team sucked.

[K.Koscik]

'03 Magic McGrady stretch was better than anything Kobe had ever done.

How is 32ppg / 5.5apg / 6.5rpg / 1.7spg on 46% fg's better than Kobe's

30ppg / 5.9 apg / 6.9 rpg / 2.2spg on 45% fg's

or

35ppg / 4.5apg / 5.3rpg / 1.8spg on 45%


Kobe's 02-03 campaign is better from an individual year standpoint, and Kobe had a better, longer stretch of dominance.

[Xsatyr]

How is 32ppg / 5.5apg / 6.5rpg / 1.7spg on 46% fg's better than Kobe's

30ppg / 5.9 apg / 6.9 rpg / 2.2spg on 45% fg's

or

35ppg / 4.5apg / 5.3rpg / 1.8spg on 45%


Kobe's 02-03 campaign is better from an individual year standpoint, and Kobe had a better, longer stretch of dominance.
The question is in their prime only.

[Bush4Ever]

To me, their offensive games are close enough that Kobe's relative edge on defense would be the deciding factor.

[K.Koscik]

The question is in their prime only.

1) A prime is not limited to a single year. A prime is, as aforementioned, a stretch of individual dominance (when talking about players at such calibres)

2) Even if it were limited to one year, I answer that as well. T-Macs best year fails in comparison to Kobe's best year. Not by a long shot, it's fairly close, but it does.

[Xsatyr]

1) A prime is not limited to a single year. A prime is, as aforementioned, a stretch of individual dominance (when talking about players at such calibres)

2) Even if it were limited to one year, I answer that as well. T-Macs best year fails in comparison to Kobe's best year. Not by a long shot, it's fairly close, but it does.
When someone says in their prime they're are talking about the peak of their performance. The length of one person's prime does not make him any better if they played each other at their peak. My pick is still Kobe either way.

[L.Kizzle]

Kobe's best year and length of prime were better.

McGrady only really had 3 great seasons. Kobe has strung together about 8 or 9.
Great or really good? Kobe wasn't great in 2000.

[andgar923]

I honestly don't think Tmac ever peaked.

[L.Kizzle]

I honestly don't think Tmac ever peaked.
Which means he never will. He may not have peaked but his best was 2001-2005.

[andgar923]

Which means he never will.

I agree.

The difference was, Kobe was allowed too peak while Tmac wasn't.

I hate when people bring up "if" scenarios, but what if Tmac never had serious injuries?

I honestly think he could've averaged more points, shot a higher percentage, grabbed more rebounds, etc.etc.

[YAWN]

Great or really good? Kobe wasn't great in 2000.

28/6/6/2 + all nba and all d team was not great in 2000?

[L.Kizzle]

I agree.

The difference was, Kobe was allowed too peak while Tmac wasn't.

I hate when people bring up "if" scenarios, but what if Tmac never had serious injuries?

I honestly think he could've averaged more points, shot a higher percentage, grabbed more rebounds, etc.etc.
Agree, he should have peaked around his nd or 3rd season with Houston, with Yao, but he got his first major injury his second season in Houston and ...

[L.Kizzle]

28/6/6/2 + all nba and all d team was not great in 2000?
I'm not even gonna look it up, but Kobe wasn't gettin 28/6/6/2 in 2000.

[KenneBell]

I agree.

The difference was, Kobe was allowed too peak while Tmac wasn't.

I hate when people bring up "if" scenarios, but what if Tmac never had serious injuries?

I honestly think he could've averaged more points, shot a higher percentage, grabbed more rebounds, etc.etc.
If that's the case, did we really see Kobe at his peak? I mean, those knee surgeries did take some of his athleticism away. Kobe never really had the same quickness or explosiveness after the '03 season. I couldn't imagine him with that athleticism and his '06 skills.

[KenneBell]

I'm not even gonna look it up, but Kobe wasn't gettin 28/6/6/2 in 2000.
No but he was at 28.5/6/5/2 in '01.

[YAWN]

I'm not even gonna look it up, but Kobe wasn't gettin 28/6/6/2 in 2000.

ah you mean the 99-00 season.

yea just 23/6/5/2 + all d and all nba team.

[L.Kizzle]

ah you mean the 99-00 season.

yea just 23/6/5/2 + all d and all nba team.
Which is good but not great.

[Abraham Lincoln]

If that's the case, did we really see Kobe at his peak? I mean, those knee surgeries did take some of his athleticism away. Kobe never really had the same quickness or explosiveness after the '03 season. I couldn't imagine him with that athleticism and his '06 skills.Alas, thou must know his peak was 2003, the mere difference being his suppourting teammates. There be no differential in the player that was Kobe Bryant during the 2003 and 2006 seasons, apart from the decreased knee mobility. The mere creedence of this being all but true shan't exist any longer.

[andgar923]

If that's the case, did we really see Kobe at his peak? I mean, those knee surgeries did take some of his athleticism away. Kobe never really had the same quickness or explosiveness after the '03 season. I couldn't imagine him with that athleticism and his '06 skills.

True.... but Tmac's injuries were more severe and consistent.

Either way

I thought Tmac was better for the period he was healthy. Not by much, but still better.



I think defensively they were about the same, Tmac was a better (and more willing passer), I give the slight edge on Tmac when it came to off the dribble for one reason:

bigs used to defend him more

Otherwise they were a draw, I think they were even as far as their mid range game and shooting, but Tmac had a clear advantage in the post. Yes he was taller, but he was also good and was a more willing passer.

So advantage Tmac.

[plowking]

Great or really good? Kobe wasn't great in 2000.

Kobe has 7 really good seasons. For example 25ppg, 5apg, 5rpg type seasons, varying depending on the production in each category.

T-Mac has about 5. Though you look at his FG% and realize he less then 44% in 2 of those.

He's really only had 3 great years, compared to Kobe's 7.

Prime is not peak. Peak is peak. Prime is a level of play for a certain time where you are at your best. If comparing primes, Kobe is better. Longevity and numbers wise.

Furthermore, Kobe's peak is better. His best year was better then McGrady's.

[jmill]

Great or really good? Kobe wasn't great in 2000.

9 seasons would start with his 00-01 season in which he averaged 28/6/5.

The season you're referring to isn't relevant to plowking's statement.

[bdreason]

I'de have to say Kobe... but it's close.


Kobe was/is a much more consistant player though. Despite puting TONS of minutes on the court, Kobe has managed to sustain great play for years.

[All Net]

People forget just how great T-mac was in his early Orlando days...guy was really a great player.

[lefthook00]

They were both the same player back then, but one was taller and a little smoother, and the other was shorter and and a littler more quick, which resulted in slightly different playing styles on the court. T-Mac was silkier earlier, but Kobe surpassed him a little later.

[noob cake]

T-Mac in his prime was twice the player ever Kobe was/is.

Too bad T-Mac dropped off considerably, and Kobe has been fantastic for almost a decade.
:violin:

[xtn5021]

Kobe prime vs. T-Mac prime? Definitely T-Mac. Dude was a BEAST in his prime. Not saying that Kobe isn't a beast in his prime. But T-mac's prime is way better than Kobe's. Just saying. *Tries to dodge trolls...*

[YAWN]

Kobe prime vs. T-Mac prime? Definitely T-Mac. Dude was a BEAST in his prime. Not saying that Kobe isn't a beast in his prime. But T-mac's prime is way better than Kobe's. Just saying. *Tries to dodge trolls...*

what are you breaking down prime to?

best back to back seasons goes to kobe.
best season goes to kobe.
best month goes to kobe.
best game goes to kobe.
best half goes to kobe
best quarter goes to kobe
best minute goes to Tmac :confusedshrug:

[jmill]

T-Mac in his prime was twice the player ever Kobe was/is.


hy⋅per⋅bo⋅le   

[plowking]

McGrady use to be one of my favorite players. Though his 3 seasons of "greatness" have him vastly overrated on ISH. Better then Kobe? He wasn't close. 3 great seasons don't put you close to someone who has sustained all time great numbers over a decade.

[Abraham Lincoln]

McGrady use to be one of my favorite players. Though his 3 seasons of "greatness" have him vastly overrated on ISH. Better then Kobe? He wasn't close. 3 great seasons don't put you close to someone who has sustained all time great numbers over a decade.
Alas, not a soul here be proclaiming the career of Tracy McGrady equal to the career of Kobe Bryant, but rather their top individual seasons, which merely by coincidence be none other than the 2002-2003 season for both. Thou shan't rank achievements along with various career merits, but rather abilities as outlined be their clutch play, defense, playmaking ability, scoring, along with whatever additional category thou may feel free to add. It be a very close comparison to all the wise men of the land.

[shadow]

T-Mac in his prime was twice the player ever Kobe was/is.

Too bad T-Mac dropped off considerably, and Kobe has been fantastic for almost a decade.
:violin:

Hardly. They were both the same player for all practical purposes. The only difference was Kobe had shaq so his stats weren't as high as McGrady's (and Kobe won rings as an added benefit).

[plowking]

Alas, not a soul here be proclaiming the career of Tracy McGrady equal to the career of Kobe Bryant, but rather their top individual seasons, which merely by coincidence be none other than the 2002-2003 season for both. Thou shan't rank achievements along with various career merits, but rather abilities as outlined be their clutch play, defense, playmaking ability, scoring, along with whatever additional category thou may feel free to add. It be a very close comparison to all the wise men of the land.

Well why not say best season vs best season.

Prime vs prime is completely different. Kobe's prime is near a decade, T-Mac's a mere 3 years.

[Xsatyr]

Well why not say best season vs best season.

Prime vs prime is completely different. Kobe's prime is near a decade, T-Mac's a mere 3 years.
Bc the question was who was the best at their peak, not who had a longer one. At the best in their career who was better at that specific moment, is it really that hard to figure out? I still pick Kobe but damn seriously, comprehension much?

[Toizumi]

Kobe is the better player and has had a way better career.
but in their primes.... close... very close..

[Bodhi]

What exactly defines a player's peak? Because people pointout that Kobe had the best single season and the best single game, and the response to both of those is that neither constitutes a prime.

[andredagiant]

WTF, T-mac is overated.

Your mom's overrated:confusedshrug:

[Heilige]

Well why not say best season vs best season.

Prime vs prime is completely different. Kobe's prime is near a decade, T-Mac's a mere 3 years.



When would you say Kobe's prime started, and is he still in his prime?

[jmill]

When would you say Kobe's prime started, and is he still in his prime?

I'd say it started in 00-01, and that he's still in it. Over that 9 year span Kobe's averaged 28.3ppg/5.3apg/5.8rpg. And while his bulk numbers were down slightly this year, it was only because he was able to play a few less minutes per game as a result of the Lakers being so good as a team and him getting to sit out the 4th quarter more than past years.

[plowking]

When would you say Kobe's prime started, and is he still in his prime?

00-01 is when his top play started. He is still in his prime in my opinion. Still capable of 30ppg if he hadn't of played so many games this off season.

Of course he had some better years in between his prime play, which I view as his peak seasons. 02-03, 05-06 and 07-08 being his three best seasons in my opinion.

Certain aspects of Kobe's game have declined, though he has made up for it with other parts of his game, so I wouldn't say he is on the decline yet. Maybe next season is where he slowly starts to regress.

That said, I still think he is capable of 24+ppg till he's 35.

[jjayfive]

tracy in his best season was the most effortless scorer i've ever seen... hard to pick... i say kobe because he averaged 35pts a game for a season...

[lefthook00]

Kobe really did deserve those first team all defense awards back then. He really was a great lockdown defender. T-Mac has those freakishly long limbs though, which helped his D.

[jmill]

I mean I think it's close, I give a slight edge to Kobe but I loved TMac in Orlando.

TMac 3 year stretch, 01-03

28ppg,7.3 rpg,5.1apg,.455 FG%

Kobe during that span

28ppg,6rpg,5.5apg,.461 FG%

Kobe 06-08

31.7ppg,5.7rpg,5.1apg, .457 FG%

Basically I disagree with anyone who uses either player's name and "it's not even close" in the same sentence.

[andgar923]

This is a case of stats being misleading.

Kobe played under the greatest system of all time and with the most dominant player of his era.

He also had a better supporting cast around him.

I mentioned earlier that Tmac was getting double teamed more than any perimeter player since MJ. And anybody that saw him play in his perceived peak, will agree that Tmac was either the same or better than Kobe.

I give the slight edge to Tmac, for reasons I detailed earlier.

Anybody that says it aint close, obviously didn't watch him play enough. The man used to score with the greatest of ease, and could've easily scored more points if he had that aggressive mentality.

I remember a bunch of games where he'd have around 30 points at the half but then stopped being aggressive. He is notorious (and at times criticized for good reason) for not being an aggressive scorer.

Best believe..... he could avg close to 40 pts if he had Kobe's aggressive mentality. And he could do it in a more diverse manner than Kobe.

But again..... this is another instance in which we judge players on their scoring avg and not their entire game. That's where Tmac outshines Kobe.

[The_Yearning]

prime t-mac best wing player since Jordan and best player since Jordan arguably.

/thread

[jmill]

Kobe played under the greatest system of all time and with the most dominant player of his era.

He also had a better supporting cast around him.

Meh, he didn't have a good supporting cast or Shaq in 06-07, two years in which alot of people consider to be the best of his career.

[Allstar24]

Tracy McGrady can take the crown for being better than Kobe in his prime. However, Kobe's the one with all the championships and the multiple All NBA selections and the one who will always be remembered as the better player at the end of their respective careers. That's all that matters.

[andgar923]

Meh, he didn't have a good supporting cast or Shaq in 06-07, two years in which alot of people consider to be the best of his career.

Not everybody agrees with that tho.

But Tmac played a bigger part of his career under those circumstances and faced more double teams.

And aside from stats,Tmac had a better game.

He had a better post up game and passed better.

Again..... people another example of people over emphasizing scoring.

[KenneBell]

He had a better post up game
That's debatable.

[andgar923]

That's debatable.

Not really.

Kobe rarely posted up. He's actually posted up more this season than ever before.

Kobe was primarily a chucker.

Tmac also had the height advantage and another aspect of being a post up player is passing. And Tmac was a better passer, but a more willing passer as well.

Tmac's reaction (decision making) in the post was better than Kobe's. He just saw the defenders quicker and reacted quicker as well, again part of what makes a good post up player.

Tmac had the same fadeaway that Kobe has, he could turn to either shoulder, as well. You combine that with Tmac's athletic ability and size, and you have a better post up player and player in general.

[Mark Jackson]

Real Question? Shouldn't "Prime" be longer than a 2yr Span?

[globarticles]

It's too close to call.

[jmill]

Not everybody agrees with that tho.

But Tmac played a bigger part of his career under those circumstances and faced more double teams.

And aside from stats,Tmac had a better game.

He had a better post up game and passed better.

Again..... people another example of people over emphasizing scoring.

I'm not so sure I buy the double teams argument. Seems like one of those things that's very easy to say to support a certain side because it's obv tough to prove.

I do know that Kobe is notorious for the amount of double teams he faces as this video illustrates. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc)

So if anything I think there's a good chance they're close in that area as well.

[KenneBell]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Not really.

Kobe rarely posted up. He's actually posted up more this season than ever before. /QUOTE]
Well it depends on if we are talking '06 or '03.

[andgar923]

I'm not so sure I buy the double teams argument. Seems like one of those things that's very easy to say to support a certain side because it's obv tough to prove.

I do know that Kobe is notorious for the amount of double teams he faces as this video illustrates. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc)

So if anything I think there's a good chance they're close in that area as well.:roll: :roll:

He posted a KPAH vid..... oh lord!!!!

[jmill]

Not really.

Kobe rarely posted up. He's actually posted up more this season than ever before.

Kobe was primarily a chucker.

Tmac also had the height advantage and another aspect of being a post up player is passing. And Tmac was a better passer, but a more willing passer as well.

Tmac's reaction (decision making) in the post was better than Kobe's. He just saw the defenders quicker and reacted quicker as well, again part of what makes a good post up player.

Tmac had the same fadeaway that Kobe has, he could turn to either shoulder, as well. You combine that with Tmac's athletic ability and size, and you have a better post up player and player in general.

If all this is true you would think TMac would have the higher FG%, especially given he's two inches taller than Kobe.

- Better post up game
- More diverse scorer
- Better decision maker

Worse FG%, even in his prime. 43% career shooter. 41% shooter over the last 6 years.

Now I like TMac alot, but you list all these things that he has the advantage over Kobe and it just doesn't make sense that his %s would all be worse than a guy like Kobe who's just a chucker with less range.

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Not really.

Kobe rarely posted up. He's actually posted up more this season than ever before. /QUOTE]
Well it depends on if we are talking '06 or '03.

He's never really been a post up player bro.

This is the most he's posted up, even most Kobe or Laker fans will confirm this.

I mean... he shot damn near 7 three point shots in 06 alone, and remember he was criticized by his own coaching staff for not posting up?

The main reason his fg% has jumped is because he's posting up more this season. And it seems he's made a conscious effort to not shoot as many three pointers.

I think Kobe would attempt to post about 4 possessions per game (rough estimate), today he tries to post almost every time down.

While Tmac used to post every other possession due to mismatches, and due to his height and strength, he could post up from a farther distance.

[andgar923]

If all this is true you would think TMac would have the higher FG%, especially given he's two inches taller than Kobe.

- Better post up game
- More diverse scorer
- Better decision maker

Worse FG%, even in his prime. 43% career shooter. 41% shooter over the last 6 years.

Now I like TMac alot, but you list all these things that he has the advantage over Kobe and it just doesn't make sense that his %s would all be worse than a guy like Kobe who's just a chucker with less range.

He was doubled more.

And its clear most of you never really saw Tmac play.

[Mark Jackson]

[QUOTE=KenneBell]

He's never really been a post up player bro.

This is the most he's posted up, even most Kobe or Laker fans will confirm this.

I mean... he shot damn near 7 three point shots in 06 alone, and remember he was criticized by his own coaching staff for not posting up?

The main reason his fg% has jumped is because he's posting up more this season. And it seems he's made a conscious effort to not shoot as many three pointers.

I think Kobe would attempt to post about 4 possessions per game (rough estimate), today he tries to post almost every time down.

While Tmac used to post every other possession due to mismatches, and due to his height and strength, he could post up from a farther distance.

"Momma, there goes that man again"...Good True Post..:applause:

[jmill]

:roll: :roll:

He posted a KPAH vid..... oh lord!!!!

It doesn't really matter who's vid it is, I couldn't care less about the commentary, it just happens to show a number of clips where he gets double/triple teamed, which happened a ton over the last three years.

Also, I'm aware that stats can be misleading, but a 6'8 SG/SF who is better than Kobe Bryant should have higher percentages than he does, period.

[jmill]

He was doubled more.

And its clear most of you never really saw Tmac play.

Oh, I saw him play. He was my favorite player along with Kobe in that time period.

I even had the shoes.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/512/tmac.jpg

Still not buying that statement as a fact.

[andgar923]

It doesn't really matter who's vid it is, I couldn't care less about the commentary, it just happens to show a number of clips where he gets double/triple teamed, which happened a ton over the last three years.

Also, I'm aware that stats can be misleading, but a 6'8 SG/SF who is better than Kobe Bryant should have higher percentages than he does, period.

Best believe he didn't get doubled more than Tmac.

And because nobody's ever made a YouTube clip of Tmac getting constantly doubled, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I used to watch almost every game, and he was doubled and tripled more than any other perimeter player since MJ.

And :roll: again at showing a KPAH vid.

[jmill]

Best believe he didn't get doubled more than Tmac.

And because nobody's ever made a YouTube clip of Tmac getting constantly doubled, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I used to watch almost every game, and he was doubled and tripled more than any other perimeter player since MJ.

And :roll: again at showing a KPAH vid.

Perhaps, but it's interesting that you're the only person I've heard make that argument. Also, I didn't post the youtube clip because I felt it proved Kobe got double teamed more. Sorry to disappoint.

Also, following up on this


If all this is true you would think TMac would have the higher FG%, especially given he's two inches taller than Kobe.

- Better post up game
- More diverse scorer
- Better decision maker

Worse FG%, even in his prime. 43% career shooter. 41% shooter over the last 6 years.

Now I like TMac alot, but you list all these things that he has the advantage over Kobe and it just doesn't make sense that his %s would all be worse than a guy like Kobe who's just a chucker with less range.

If Tmac had the better post up game, was the more diverse scorer, and was a better decision maker, why did his FG% drop from 45% to .417% in his last year in Orlando? Granted, he still averaged 28 points, but why such a big drop? A 6'8 guard/forward who's better than Kobe shooting 41%?

[andgar923]

Perhaps, but it's interesting that you're the only person I've heard make that argument. Also, I didn't post the youtube clip because I felt it proved Kobe got double teamed more. Sorry to disappoint.

Also, following up on this



If Tmac had the better post up game, was the more diverse scorer, and was a better decision maker, why did his FG% drop from 45% to .417% in his last year in Orlando? Granted, he still averaged 28 points, but why such a big drop? A 6'8 guard/forward who's better than Kobe shooting 41%?


I dunno...... maybe..... INJURIES taking a toll?

Him being a *****?

When his back problems got worse (which he played through) he stopped posting up more and more, he stopped driving more and more.

I'm really starting to think you never really saw him play, but a few times a year and caught highlights.

[jmill]

I dunno...... maybe..... INJURIES taking a toll?

Him being a *****?

When his back problems got worse (which he played through) he stopped posting up more and more, he stopped driving more and more.

I'm really starting to think you never really saw him play, but a few times a year and caught highlights.

I was hoping you'd say that. Okay, so in his prime 3 years, why weren't his percentages higher than Kobe?



- Better post up
- More diverse
- Better decision making
- Two inches taller

Worse FG %

Just seems strange that any other player better than Kobe all have better FG %'s than him. Except for Tracy Mcgrady. Seems like a bit of a statistical oddity.

[andgar923]

I was hoping you'd say that. Okay, so in his prime 3 years, why weren't his percentages higher than Kobe?



- Better post up
- More diverse
- Better decision making
- Two inches taller

Worse FG %

Just seems strange that any other player better than Kobe all have better FG %'s than him. Except for Tracy Mcgrady. Seems like a bit of a statistical oddity.

I already explained it, which part of getting more double teams and serious injuries is hard to understand?

[jmill]

I already explained it, which part of getting more double teams and serious injuries is hard to understand?


I'm talking about his prime.

Not after his prime when he had serious injuries, during his 3 year prime when he played 75+ games every year.

[flu game]

with there defense i think dwade and james are peaking higher then both ever did

[andgar923]

I'm talking about his prime.

Not after his prime when he had serious injuries, during his 3 year prime when he played 75+ games every year.

Assuming that you think Kobe's best season or "prime" was in 05-06.

Tmac.... shot a better fg and 3pt %, had more rebounds and assists, he also had less turnovers.

Now...... Kobe shot a better percentage after the Shaq years.

But would you agree that players improve as they mature and get more experience? That they take better shots, improve their jumper etc.etc.?

Tmac's injuries prevented him from getting to that point, which I alluded to earlier. While Kobe's injuries weren't as serious and thus allowed him to continue to improve.

And like I mentioned earlier, Kobe was allowed to play under the triangle system which prevents him from getting doubled as often. Why? that's what the system was created for.

You will have double teams, but they're minimized.

If you put a young Kobe, without Shaq, without the Triangle offense, with a bad team, do you seriously think he'd be as effective?

It took him most of this season to learn how to mature, imagine a younger less developed and mature Kobe..... LOLLL

[phoenix18]

with there defense i think dwade and james are peaking higher then both ever did
Please, Im still not sold on Lebron. Tmac had score on the best wing defender and had guard the other teams best player. Only wade,Iggy and a select few have to do that. Kobe had a great prime but Tmac was just so special and had to do things that no other superstar guard has to do. Remember when he guarded dirk in 04-05 in the first round? Although he has had shortcomings and many injuries, he was asked to do the most with the least.

[jmill]

Assuming that you think Kobe's best season or "prime" was in 05-06.

Bad assumption. I don't just look at how many points someone scored and go OMG BEST YEAR EVER. I prefer his 07 year myself.

Regardless, TMac's FG% during his 3 year prime was .455 Pretty good, but still never better than Kobe's, not even over the same stretch.

You can even take TMacs best year FG% wise and Kobe's been better 7 times, 5 of them in his prime.

Regarding your reasons why:

You say back injuries are why his %'s are lower, I point out I'm only talking about his prime 3 years.

You say TMac was younger and had less experience, I say Kobe had higher %'s at the same age.

You say TMac faced more double teams, even though there's no way to prove this and Kobe was notorious for the absurd amount of double teams he faced from 06-08. Fine. I don't necessarily agree, but it can't be proved either way.

You say triangle offense, true, but I think it's pretty weak to diminish his numbers because of that. Anyone who watches him on a consistent basis knows how good he is. Feel free to watch game 4 of Utah/LA again to see why. But pulling out hypotheticals on why Kobe wouldn't be as effective is pretty weak and doesn't help your side.

Most of your points are just something that's subjective and cant be proved. That doesn't really make for the strongest argument.


Bottom line is neither one of us is going to change the others mind.

I think prime Kobe was really good. I think prime Tmac was really good. It sucks that Tmac was unable to have a good team around him in his prime. I think it's close either way.

But I'm never going to agree that someone with the following advantages over Kobe

-better post up game
- better decision maker
- more diverse scorer
- two inches taller

Would have a worse FG% than Kobe while being better than him offensively. I don't buy it, and I'm not going to. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/images/smilies/heart.gif Tmac though.

[lefthook00]

Both were the same in their prime. It comes down to who's style you like more.

[NBASTATMAN]

Since Kobe is in his prime now, we really cannot compare. Tracy was a monster down in Orlando though, it's too bad he had terrible luck down there.

I'll go with T-Mac for now, because I loved what he did in Orlando. I'm sure Kobe will surpass him.



HMMM , Maybe in 2004 tmac was better but not by much and If we account for a players heart than Kobe wins., THAT YEAR... As for rest of their careers Kobe wins because Tmac started having back problems early and went downhill ...:hammertime:

[NBASTATMAN]

Perhaps, but it's interesting that you're the only person I've heard make that argument. Also, I didn't post the youtube clip because I felt it proved Kobe got double teamed more. Sorry to disappoint.

Also, following up on this



If Tmac had the better post up game, was the more diverse scorer, and was a better decision maker, why did his FG% drop from 45% to .417% in his last year in Orlando? Granted, he still averaged 28 points, but why such a big drop? A 6'8 guard/forward who's better than Kobe shooting 41%?



That same year Kobe shot 43 percent yet he played with shaq, malone, payton, fisher .. The league still had not changed the handchecking rules... Also if you look at kobe the year he was out of the triangle you see he isn't as good out of the triangle as he is in it.. Matter of fact i remember kobe shooting like 39 percent for a couple of months out of the triangle than they changed back to the triangle and he shot alot better the rest of the year and he once again finished with 43 percent... Crazy to think MJ at forty shot 45 percent one year before those two shot 43 and 42 percent...

[phelix2000]

Give me Kobe any day of the week he has that hunger that Tracy has never had.

[NBASTATMAN]

It doesn't really matter who's vid it is, I couldn't care less about the commentary, it just happens to show a number of clips where he gets double/triple teamed, which happened a ton over the last three years.

Also, I'm aware that stats can be misleading, but a 6'8 SG/SF who is better than Kobe Bryant should have higher percentages than he does, period.


Why is it that shooting percentages only matter when Kobe has a higher one than the person he is being compared to?:wtf:

[jmill]

That same year Kobe shot 43 percent yet he played with shaq, malone, payton, fisher .. The league still had not changed the handchecking rules

Nah, the Malone/Shaq/Payton year was 02-03. He put up 30/7/6 on 45% shooting.

[zay_24]

Kobe had to play with shaq, so his stats were lower. I doubt tmac averages 30ppg and SEVEN rpg with Shaq on his team.

[NBASTATMAN]

Give me Kobe any day of the week he has that hunger that Tracy has never had.


I will admit to that in a second..

[NBASTATMAN]

Nah, the Malone/Shaq/Payton year was 02-03. He put up 30/7/6 on 45% shooting.


that is wrong ... I am mr statman.. Check your sources homie... They are bad.... More like 43 percent shooting close to 25 pts a game...

[jmill]

Why is it that shooting percentages only matter when Kobe has a higher one than the person he is being compared to?:wtf:

Probably because I've never claimed that he's better than MJ or Lebron etc.

And probably also because it's a Kobe/TMac thread where the discussion at hand is comparing Kobe to TMac specifically.

Just a thought.

[jmill]

that is wrong ... I am mr statman.. Check your sources homie... They are bad.... More like 43 percent shooting close to 25 pts a game...

Yup, you're right, no problem admitting I'm wrong.

Though it still doesn't affect my argument. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[jmill]

More like 43 percent shooting close to 25 pts a game...

Though it's worth pointing out that .438 is obv closer to 44% than 43%.

[NBASTATMAN]

Yup, you're right, no problem admitting I'm wrong.

Though it still doesn't affect my argument. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/images/smilies/smile.gif


No problem if I had a decision on who to get between tmac and kobe it wouldn't be close.. Not because one is better than the other but because Kobe has heart and tmac never did....

[NBASTATMAN]

Though it's worth pointing out that .438 is obv closer to 44% than 43%.


Shooting 43 percent with, payton , malone, and shaq should be like shooting 35 percent.. That is just bad.... Kobe complains he never has had a facilitator like pippen yet payton was better than pippen as a facilitator....

[jmill]

No problem if I had a decision on who to get between tmac and kobe it wouldn't be close.. Not because one is better than the other but because Kobe has heart and tmac never did....

Fair enough, I can respect that.

[KenneBell]

That same year Kobe shot 43 percent yet he played with shaq, malone, payton, fisher ..
He was injured during the first half of that season. After he got healthy, post AS break, he averaged 27/6/6 on 45%. He'll stay in that 45-47% no matter who he plays with.

[jmill]

Shooting 43 percent with, payton , malone, and shaq should be like shooting 35 percent.. That is just bad.... Kobe complains he never has had a facilitator like pippen yet payton was better than pippen as a facilitator....

Don't really agree with that, if it was prime Payton/Malone I'd be more inclined to agree.

But you have to keep in mind

- Malone was 40
- Payton was 35
- Kobe was dealing with the rape trial, constantly traveling back and forth, missed like 20 games in the regular season etc. etc.

Both players were FAR past their prime and were looking to ride Kobe/Shaq's coattails to get a ring. And I don't like making excuses regarding the rape trial/traveling nonstop/injuries but I do think stuff like that is going to take its toll and make it hard to focus on basketball and play your A game. Aside from that, meh, he had a down year shooting.

[KenneBell]

payton was better than pippen as a facilitator....
Payton didn't know the triangle like Pippen did however.

[White Chocolate]

McGrady was a f*ckin animal back in '02-'04. Kobe's defense was better, but McGrady's wasn't bad either. I think McGrady had a better shot selection than Kobe and didn't take as many bad shots. I'm stuck. I don't know who I'd take.

[GOBB]

Bump interesting thread. People actually debating

[Sharmer]

T mac because he's score so much easier than Kobe.

[alec613]

Tmac for offense
Kobe for defense

Tmac's defense left a lot to be desired

[AlphaWolf24]

McGrady was a f*ckin animal back in '02-'04. Kobe's defense was better, but McGrady's wasn't bad either. I think McGrady had a better shot selection than Kobe and didn't take as many bad shots. I'm stuck. I don't know who I'd take.


BS....

- TMAC took way more contested fallaway Jumpers then Kobe ( in his Orlando days).....but it was expected.

He was the only player on his team who could create their own shot....I remember him taking about 3 - 5 contested 3's per game....he would make some....but some you just had to live with.

Not too mention he loved taking a reverse pivot fadeaway 25' jumper....he was actually going to this move alot during his 03' - 04' years.....

again , sometimes it went in.....sometimes it didn't.

- I always knew Kobe was a more complete/well rounded player....Kobe was also a more cerebral/smarter player who knew how to make the little plays that put teams over the edge....Tmac did not ( and lets face it...those are the things that separate great players )

- I would say that in his peak ( 2 seasons) Tmac was prolly offensively on par with Kobe...( or maybe a smidgen below)...but Kobe had him beat on the defensive side and the mental side.......Kobe even knew this.....he knew that Tmac would eventually mentally break.....

[HardwoodLegend]

Kobe was also a more cerebral/smarter player who knew how to make the little plays that put teams over the edge....Tmac did not ( and lets face it...those are the things that separate great players )

T-Mac's basketball IQ is one of his most underrated attributes actually. Even in his Orlando days when his teammates couldn't be relied upon he consistently showed great knack for playmaking.

[JellyBean]

Wow. This is like trying to pick which apple I like, the Granny Smith apple or the Red Delicious apple. But I am going to answer the question.

Playmaking: Kobe
Defense: Kobe
Offense: Kobe. I just remember all of those so called "Kobe-Stoppers" being used to defend this brother. T-Mac not too many. Folks were more worried about the Kobester then the T-Mac attack.

[Assassin85]

Tmac was way smoother and looked like he aint even was tryin while still shittin on niccas.

Kobe had that all out try hard look to get dem same stats.

So Mac takes it for me.

[AlphaWolf24]

T-Mac's basketball IQ is one of his most underrated attributes actually. Even in his Orlando days when his teammates couldn't be relied upon he consistently showed great knack for playmaking.


- he was a great passer IMO....definatley his scoring ability over shadowed his excellent passing...

my point was......

- it seemed to me he always got caught up in..." your turn...my turn " game play...

If he wasn't the one with the ball he looked lost.....he didn't know how to play the game without the ball....even in Houston....he didn't fit well playing with other players who could create.

- Prime Tmac ( 03' 04') was must watch TV....he was one of the greatest scorers I ever seen.....don't get me wrong,

Just comparing 2 of the greatest wings ever....and suggesting what separated them.