Statistically, who matches up with "Playoff Jordan"?

[Da_Realist]

Statistically, which of these guys will end their playoff careers with numbers close to (or surpassing) Jordan's playoff numbers?

The raw numbers...

Jordan 179 games, 41.8 mins, 33.4 pts, 6.4 rebs, 5.7 asts, 2.10 stls, .883 blks, 48.7 fg%

Bryant 157 games, 39.2 mins, 24.4 pts, 5.0 rebs, 4.7 asts, 1.41 stls, .662 blks, 44.6 fg%

James 50 games, 44.4 mins, 27.9 pts, 8.3 rebs, 7.3 asts, 1.62 stls, .780 blks, 43.9 fg%

Wade 55 games, 40.8 mins, 25.3 pts, 5.3 rebs, 6.0 asts, 1.72 stls, .949 blks, 47.6 fg%

For Kobe to match Jordan's playoff stats, he would need to average 98.4 pts, 13.2 asts, 16.4 rebs, 7.0 stls and 2.5 blks per game over the next 22 playoff games.

For Lebron to match, he would need to average 35.6 pts, 5.10 asts, 5.73 rebs, 2.29 stls and 0.92 blks per game over the next 129 playoff games.

For Dwyane to match, he would need to average 37.7 pts, 5.55 asts, 6.97 rebs, 2.28 stls, and 0.85 blks per game over the next 121 playoff games.

Realistically, MJ's ppg, fg% and spg are secure. Lebron's gonna pass his rebs and asts averages, but will have to work hard for a long time to better his blks per game. As great as he's played in this year's first round, he's "only" averaged .75 bpg. I'm just sayin'...

Wade may average more apg with a more realistic chance at beating MJ's blks per game. However, with his 6'4" frame I think averaging .85 blks per game over 121 games is a long shot.

Obviously, Kobe doesn't have a shot at anything. The averages really don't convey how far apart the production levels really are. Jordan averaged 5.7 asts per game, Kobe 4.7. That seems close, until you realize that Kobe needs to average 13.2 asts just to match Jordan's output in the same number of games.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No one. Especially given the context and defenses he faced. Physical play, and he still managed to top his regular season numbers all the time.

[jmill]

Kobe will pass Jordan easily in all these categories.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Kobe will pass Jordan easily in all these categories.
:confusedshrug:

All time playoff career averages?

Not even close.

:roll:

[jmill]

:confusedshrug:

All time playoff career averages?

Not even close.

:roll:

Yes, all time playoff career averages.

Kobe will pass him in everything.

[Bigsmoke]

Sasha Vujacic

[Samurai Swoosh]

Yes, all time playoff career averages.

Kobe will pass him in everything.
:oldlol:

[brantonli]

Kobe will pass Jordan easily in all these categories.

:confusedshrug: Did you even read the post?

But the averaging 98 points seems a bit extreme, are you sure that's right? I can sort of see it since Kobe has far less games to do it than Wade or LeBron but still...

[Stacey King]

Yes, all time playoff career averages.

Kobe will pass him in everything.

You're probably just a troll, or your an idiot, or both. Kobe has no chance.

It doesn't matter if anyone passes his numbers; it's his accomplishments and domination on both ends of the floor that made him the best Playoff performer ever.

[jmill]

:confusedshrug: Did you even read the post?

But the averaging 98 points seems a bit extreme, are you sure that's right? I can sort of see it since Kobe has far less games to do it than Wade or LeBron but still...


Yes, I read the post, I thought given the OP the point of this thread was for everyone to try and make the dumbest post possible.

[oh the horror]

I believe Jmill was being sarcastic.

[jmill]

You're probably just a troll, or your an idiot, or both. Kobe has no chance.

It doesn't matter if anyone passes his numbers; it's his accomplishments and domination on both ends of the floor that made him the best Playoff performer ever.


Good point, I have now seen the error of my ways.

In light of new information the top 3 most likely are

1. Lebron James
2. Bassy Telfair
3. Chauncey Billups

Seriously though, Lebron obv.

[phoenix18]

I would if AI plays in the playoffs next year and gets superhot starts throwing up 40 and 50 point games he can get it.

[ikoiko]

Yes, I read the post, I thought given the OP the point of this thread was for everyone to try and make the dumbest post possible.

:roll: :roll: ya burnt!

[pierce2008mvp]

No one will. He also has a 28.59 Playoff PER.

[Bush4Ever]

Someone will....eventually. Someone will come along who is better than Jordan. That is the way of things.

Out of the current batch, only Lebron and perhaps Wade has the faintest chance of passing Jordan. But I am 99 percent sure neither one will pass Jordan.

[Fatal9]

Kobe as the #1 option has averaged 30/5.6/5.4 on 47.8% and 1.6 stl over 38 games. Very comparable to those numbers. Also consider that he has faced a 50+ win team (aside from Utah this year with 48 wins) every series. This includes a trip to the finals and probably a championship this year.

Wade imo still has been the best playoff performer. His stats are brought down by the series against the Bulls when he has played injured.

Lebron's performance has been very poor considering the level of competition he has faced (3 series vs. bottom 5 defensive team, 2 against sub .500 teams, this accounts for 67% of series he has been in). He is at the bottom of the rung right now.

[Bush4Ever]

Kobe as the #1 option has averaged 30/5.6/5.4 on 47.8% and 1.6 stl over 38 games. Very comparable to those numbers. Also consider that he has faced a 50+ win team (aside from Utah this year with 48 wins) every series. This includes a trip to the finals and probably a championship this year.

Wade imo still has been the best playoff performer. His stats are brought down by the series against the Bulls when he has played injured.

Lebron's performance has been very poor considering the level of competition he has faced (3 series vs. bottom 5 defensive team, 2 against sub .500 teams, this accounts for 67% of series he has been in). He is at the bottom of the rung right now.

MJ had an entire career as the number 1 option, which included many "old man years", which dragged down his averages somewhat. Kobe has not had any such seasons, and the numbers you list above all came in the relative prime of his career.

Additionally, the differences between MJ and Kobe in NBA Finals trips are very nearly the two extremes of performances.

Kobe has no shot.

[Fatal9]

MJ had an entire career as the number 1 option, which included many "old man years", which dragged down his averages somewhat. Kobe has not had any such seasons, and the numbers you list above all came in the relative prime of his career.

Additionally, the differences between MJ and Kobe in NBA Finals trips are very nearly the two extremes of performances.

Kobe has no shot.
In comparing their finals performances, consider that MJ has never even come close to facing a defense as good as the '08 Celtics or the '04 Pistons in the finals. They actually have a higher defensive rating than any team MJ has ever faced though it is pretty close to 90s Knicks (but then again, Jordan had a huge size advantage in his matchup with Starks). More physical yes, but not more intelligent. It is nearly impossible for a player to get any sort of dribble penetration against those two teams because of the layer of defenders in the lane which is anchored by the DPOY. This really blocks Kobe, Lebron or Wade from exploding against a good defense. Not saying Jordan had it any easier because he had ten eyes on him at all times but so did Kobe and Lebron against the Celtics.

I recently watched a couple of games from the Celtics/Lakers and Cavs/Celtics series and the defense is absolutely unrelenting. There is no chance at all for them to make a move in any direction because a help defender is ready to turn or has already turned to defend them right from the first dribble. Lebron only went off for one game in that series and it was when he was hitting ridiculous jumpers. Kobe who has a better jumpshot had such a hard time because not only was it impossible to get penetration, he was defended by a player 2 inches taller than him, who also happens to play excellent perimeter defense (again, I reiterate, Starks could never bother Jordan's shots, he was quick off his feet but the reach just wasn't there). The best I've seen Jordan defended in the finals was against the Sonics but even then he was uncharacteristically missing shots he would usually hit.

I don't think it is fair to make a conclusion of finals performances just yet when you take into account that Kobe went up against all-time great defenses in the finals while Jordan didn't. No sane and unbiased observer can ever even begin to argue that Lakers/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz were on the same level as the Pistons/Celtics. All except Sonics weren't even top 5 in the league during the very year Jordan faced them in the finals. Realistically though, Kobe has a shot to be in the finals for years to come so he can easily redeem himself.

[Bush4Ever]

In comparing their finals performances, consider that MJ has never even come close to facing a defense as good as the '08 Celtics or the '04 Pistons in the finals. They actually have a higher defensive rating than any team MJ has ever faced though it is pretty close to 90s Knicks (but then again, Jordan had a huge size advantage in his matchup with Starks). More physical yes, but not more intelligent. It is nearly impossible for a player to get any sort of dribble penetration against those two teams because of the layer of defenders in the lane which is anchored by the DPOY. This really blocks Kobe, Lebron or Wade from exploding against a good defense. Not saying Jordan had it any easier because he had ten eyes on him at all times but so did Kobe and Lebron against the Celtics.

I recently watched a couple of games from the Celtics/Lakers and Cavs/Celtics series and the defense is absolutely unrelenting. There is no chance at all for them to make a move in any direction because a help defender is ready to turn or has already turned to defend them right from the first dribble. Lebron only went off for one game in that series and it was when he was hitting ridiculous jumpers. Kobe who has a better jumpshot had such a hard time because not only was it impossible to get penetration, he was defended by a player 2 inches taller than him, who also happens to play excellent perimeter defense (again, I reiterate, Starks could never bother Jordan's shots, he was quick off his feet but the reach just wasn't there). The best I've seen Jordan defended in the finals was against the Sonics but even then he was uncharacteristically missing shots he would usually hit.

I don't think it is fair to make a conclusion of finals performances just yet when you take into account that Kobe went up against all-time great defenses in the finals while Jordan didn't. No sane and unbiased observer can ever even begin to argue that Lakers/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz were on the same level as the Pistons/Celtics. All except Sonics weren't even top 5 in the league during the very year Jordan faced them in the finals. Realistically though, Kobe has a shot to be in the finals for years to come so he can easily redeem himself.

The differences between the defenses faced is not even close to proportional to the differences in performance between the two in the Finals.

Heck, one could easily argue that the presence of Shaq cancels out the relative difference in defensive performance of the teams Kobe faced in the Finals (up to 2004 obviously).

Kobe did indeed face tougher defenses in the Finals, but the difference is not nearly enough to justify the difference in performance.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Kobe as the #1 option has averaged 30/5.6/5.4 on 47.8% and 1.6 stl over 38 games. Very comparable to those numbers. Also consider that he has faced a 50+ win team (aside from Utah this year with 48 wins) every series. This includes a trip to the finals and probably a championship this year.

Wade imo still has been the best playoff performer. His stats are brought down by the series against the Bulls when he has played injured.

Lebron's performance has been very poor considering the level of competition he has faced (3 series vs. bottom 5 defensive team, 2 against sub .500 teams, this accounts for 67% of series he has been in). He is at the bottom of the rung right now.
Very good post taking into account context.

[Showtime]

Very good post taking into account context.
The problem is that he wasn't exactly taking a "back seat" to Shaq offensively, since he actually shot as much, or more, and Shaq takes a lot of pressure off of a SG.

[Da_Realist]

In comparing their finals performances, consider that MJ has never even come close to facing a defense as good as the '08 Celtics or the '04 Pistons in the finals. They actually have a higher defensive rating than any team MJ has ever faced though it is pretty close to 90s Knicks (but then again, Jordan had a huge size advantage in his matchup with Starks). More physical yes, but not more intelligent. It is nearly impossible for a player to get any sort of dribble penetration against those two teams because of the layer of defenders in the lane which is anchored by the DPOY. This really blocks Kobe, Lebron or Wade from exploding against a good defense. Not saying Jordan had it any easier because he had ten eyes on him at all times but so did Kobe and Lebron against the Celtics.

Jordan had to go through the 80's Celtics, 80's Pistons (4 times), 90's Knicks (2 times with Pat Riley, once with JVG), 96 Sonics and 97 Heat. All of them are either greater or on par with 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics. Those teams were physical and intelligent. :rolleyes:

And size isn't the only factor that determines how good a defender someone is. For example, John Starks made the All-Defensive 2nd team in 93. And besides that, Jordan had to defend these guys too -- which took away from other parts of his game. John Starks was an offensive threat. Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson, Gary Payton, Gerald Wilkins, Hersey Hawkins, etc were all offensive threats that forced Jordan to expend energy on the defensive end -- which, in effect, took away from his offensive game.

[Indian guy]

Lebron's performance has been very poor considering the level of competition he has faced (3 series vs. bottom 5 defensive team, 2 against sub .500 teams, this accounts for 67% of series he has been in). He is at the bottom of the rung right now.

Making up BS as usual. LeBron's faced a BOTTOM 5 defensive team only once in his career - the 06-07 Wizards. He had NEVER faced a sub .500 team in the playoffs prior to facing Detroit this season.

45% of LeBron's playoff series' have come against the 3 best defensive teams of this decade - Detroit, SA & Boston. I think it's downright amazing despite all that he's still closest to MJ's numbers out of the Big 3.

[Da_Realist]

Kobe as the #1 option has averaged 30/5.6/5.4 on 47.8% and 1.6 stl over 38 games. Very comparable to those numbers. Also consider that he has faced a 50+ win team (aside from Utah this year with 48 wins) every series. This includes a trip to the finals and probably a championship this year.

Even if I take these averages and act like the rest of his 119 playoff games never happened, here is what Kobe would have to do to match MJ.

Average 34.5 pts, 5.8 asts, 6.6 rebs, 2.2 stls and 1.0 blks per game over the next 141 playoff games. Even his best 38 playoff games don't match these averages.

[unbreakable]

Jordan had to go through the 80's Celtics, 80's Pistons (4 times), 90's Knicks (2 times with Pat Riley, once with JVG), 96 Sonics and 97 Heat. All of them are either greater or on par with 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics. Those teams were physical and intelligent. :rolleyes:

.

Get real. The only teams Jordan faced even close to the Pistons and Celtics were the 80s Detroit and 90s Knicks.. and none of those teams had a KG or Ben Wallace type presence down low.

The Detroit team that Kobe faced was one of the greatest defensive teams of all time.. no doubt. They were sick. So was Boston last year.. Posey, Rondo, Pierce, Ray, Tony Allen, Kendrick, KG.. thats a whole squad of guys that can play D.

[Indian guy]

Even his best 38 playoff games don't match these averages.

27 of those games have come against the softest defenses imaginable - Phoenix, Denver and Utah. Kobe still couldn't outdo MJ's career averages :oldlol:

That said, it would be downright moronic to only take Kobe's playoff statistics since he hit his peak. His averages from 2000 onwards would be more fair...since that's the season when he truly became a star player.

[Da_Realist]

Get real. The only teams Jordan faced even close to the Pistons and Celtics were the 80s Detroit and 90s Knicks.. and none of those teams had a KG or Ben Wallace type presence down low.

The Detroit team that Kobe faced was one of the greatest defensive teams of all time.. no doubt. They were sick. So was Boston last year.. Posey, Rondo, Pierce, Ray, Tony Allen, Kendrick, KG.. thats a whole squad of guys that can play D.

First off, by your own admission, Jordan faced teams comparable to the 04 Pistons/08 Celtics 6 times -- (88 -91 Pistons, 92-93 Knicks). Kobe faced the Pistons ONCE and the Celtics ONCE.

Secondly, you're just wrong about the other teams. Those were great defensive teams.

[unbreakable]

First off, by your own admission, Jordan faced teams comparable to the 04 Pistons/08 Celtics 6 times -- (88 -91 Pistons, 92-93 Knicks). Kobe faced the Pistons ONCE and the Celtics ONCE.

Secondly, you're just wrong about the other teams. Those were great defensive teams.

Those defensive teams were REALLY GOOD.. not GREAT. You really think Larry Bird and Danny Ainge's slow ass could stop Jordan? Mchale and Parish' slow ass? Meanwhile Kobe is going at KG, Pierce, Posey..feel me?

Anyways, this entire thread is flawed because
A) Kobe wasnt the man from day 1
B) Youre a known Kobe hater
C) You dont know shlt

[JayGuevara]

In comparing their finals performances, consider that MJ has never even come close to facing a defense as good as the '08 Celtics or the '04 Pistons in the finals. They actually have a higher defensive rating than any team MJ has ever faced though it is pretty close to 90s Knicks (but then again, Jordan had a huge size advantage in his matchup with Starks). More physical yes, but not more intelligent. It is nearly impossible for a player to get any sort of dribble penetration against those two teams because of the layer of defenders in the lane which is anchored by the DPOY. This really blocks Kobe, Lebron or Wade from exploding against a good defense. Not saying Jordan had it any easier because he had ten eyes on him at all times but so did Kobe and Lebron against the Celtics.

I recently watched a couple of games from the Celtics/Lakers and Cavs/Celtics series and the defense is absolutely unrelenting. There is no chance at all for them to make a move in any direction because a help defender is ready to turn or has already turned to defend them right from the first dribble. Lebron only went off for one game in that series and it was when he was hitting ridiculous jumpers. Kobe who has a better jumpshot had such a hard time because not only was it impossible to get penetration, he was defended by a player 2 inches taller than him, who also happens to play excellent perimeter defense (again, I reiterate, Starks could never bother Jordan's shots, he was quick off his feet but the reach just wasn't there). The best I've seen Jordan defended in the finals was against the Sonics but even then he was uncharacteristically missing shots he would usually hit.

I don't think it is fair to make a conclusion of finals performances just yet when you take into account that Kobe went up against all-time great defenses in the finals while Jordan didn't. No sane and unbiased observer can ever even begin to argue that Lakers/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz were on the same level as the Pistons/Celtics. All except Sonics weren't even top 5 in the league during the very year Jordan faced them in the finals. Realistically though, Kobe has a shot to be in the finals for years to come so he can easily redeem himself.

Didn't Jordan himself state that Joe Dumars was most difficult single defender he ever had to face? And Dumars was listed at 6'3. Gary Payton, another notable defender, was listed at 6'4. John Starks was also listed at 6'3", the same height as Joe Dumars, and one inch shorter than Gary Payton. So I don't really buy your defender's height argument. I don't actually think anyone does.

[Da_Realist]

Those defensive teams were REALLY GOOD.. not GREAT. You really think Larry Bird and Danny Ainge's slow ass could stop Jordan? Mchale and Parish' slow ass? Meanwhile Kobe is going at KG, Pierce, Posey..feel me?

Anyways, this entire thread is flawed because
A) Kobe wasnt the man from day 1
B) Youre a known Kobe hater
C) You dont know shlt

:rolleyes:

[JordanL]

Yes, all time playoff career averages.

Kobe will pass him in everything.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[momo]

Sasha Vujacic
Win.

I Machine much hair pass Michale Baldie with my flowing locks for badabing boing.

[Fatal9]

Making up BS as usual. LeBron's faced a BOTTOM 5 defensive team only once in his career - the 06-07 Wizards. He had NEVER faced a sub .500 team in the playoffs prior to facing Detroit this season.

45% of LeBron's playoff series' have come against the 3 best defensive teams of this decade - Detroit, SA & Boston. I think it's downright amazing despite all that he's still closest to MJ's numbers out of the Big 3.
My bad. Lebron faced bottom 5 once, the other years Wizards were only bottom 6 and bottom 8 :oldlol:

LOL at you including this years Piston team in that 45%. Thanks for revealing your agenda.

[Indian guy]

My bad. Lebron faced bottom 5 once

Like you didn't know that :oldlol:


LOL at you including this years Piston team in that 45%.

I didn't. He faced Detroit in '06 & '07, Spurs in '07 and Boston in '08. Has played 9 series' in total.

[Fatal9]

Didn't Jordan himself state that Joe Dumars was most difficult single defender he ever had to face? And Dumars was listed at 6'3. Gary Payton, another notable defender, was listed at 6'4. John Starks was also listed at 6'3", the same height as Joe Dumars, and one inch shorter than Gary Payton. So I don't really buy your defender's height argument. I don't actually think anyone does.

Payton had a LOT of help and him shutting down Jordan is such a f*cking myth. Jordan was doubled more during those finals than in any other one. In terms of jumpshots, Jordan didn't have a problem getting to his spots and just rising over him, he missed a lot of jumpers he would usually stick. I remember Marv Albert even commenting on this. Didn't help that the Bulls team (outside of Jordan) played like trash in Seattle too. I can't even recall Jordan playing in single coverage at all when he was posting up or coming off screens.

[unbreakable]

:rolleyes:

Look. I dont mean to sound rude. But you created this thread for one reason and one reason only... to hate on Kobe. It aint right.

[jmill]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Not sure what's so funny.

[Lodi Dodi]

The funny thing is that these people that state how good the Boston and Detroit defenses were, are probably the same exact people that probably thought that the Lakers were going to win easily prior to these series. They only respect their competition when they lose. Suddenly they go from thinking, "These defenses aren't going to do anything to Kobe" to "WOW ZOMG BEst Defenzes EVAR!"

[pierce2008mvp]

Kobe's numbers aren't even better than Vince Carter's.


Playoffs

Kobe Bryant
24.3 ppg, 44.5% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg

Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg

[Da_Realist]

Look. I dont mean to sound rude. But you created this thread for one reason and one reason only... to hate on Kobe. It aint right.

Nope. I created this thread because those are the 3 best players in the league and I think it's fun to measure these perimeter players against the best. They are putting up numbers that people compare to MJ and I wanted a way to mark their progress through the rest of their careers.

I didn't go into this with an agenda...I didn't know Kobe's numbers were so far off from MJ until I calculated them. Besides...I also did a comparison of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Wade and Lebron on a minute per minute basis because I knew there were going to be some people that complain that Kobe wasn't "the man" as long as the others and is unfairly penalized for the early years averaging less than 20 mins per game.

The numbers weren't pretty and unfavorable to Kobe so I didn't include it. 3rd in pts per min, lowest asts per min, lowest rebs per min, lowest stls per min and 2nd lowest blks per min among the six. But I didn't include that. This thread wasn't about Kobe, but about how the big 3 compared to Jordan.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Wade seems to the most. Lebron's numbers are just different, with more of an emphasis on rebounding and passing and less on scoring. At the same time, Jordan had to deal with hand-checking, as well as a style that de-emphasized three-point shooting relative to today, so it's hard to make cross-era comparisons.

[KenneBell]

Kobe's numbers aren't even better than Vince Carter's.


Playoffs

Kobe Bryant
24.3 ppg, 44.5% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg

Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg


Hi TmacsRockets.

[jmill]

Kobe's numbers aren't even better than Vince Carter's.


Playoffs

Kobe Bryant
24.3 ppg, 44.5% fg, 32.5% 3pt FG, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg

Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg

Meh, pretty weak to include Kobe's first two years when he was a teenager getting like 17 minutes per game.

Take that out and Kobe's at

26.6ppg,44.7%fg,33.2% 3ptFG, 5.5 rpg, 5.2 apg,1.6spg, .7bpg

[KenneBell]

The problem is that he wasn't exactly taking a "back seat" to Shaq offensively, since he actually shot as much, or more, and Shaq takes a lot of pressure off of a SG.
Maybe, maybe not. It be nice to know where and how Kobe took those shots with Shaq in the middle compared to where he takes them now. It is interesting how his FG% has gone up in the playoffs after Shaq's departure even with defenses focused on him. This could be due to better shot selection and/or Kobe being placed in better situations for him to score without Shaq being in the middle.

I also find it odd that Kobe's FG% has gone up or equaled in the playoffs vs regular season since '06.


Kobe wasn't near Jordan's prime in the playoffs but his averages since Shaq left place him in some pretty high company.

[pierce2008mvp]

Meh, pretty weak to include Kobe's first two years when he was a teenager getting like 17 minutes per game.

Take that out and Kobe's at

26.6ppg,44.7%fg,33.2% 3ptFG, 5.5 rpg, 5.2 apg,1.6spg, .7bpg


How is it weak when those are his stats?


Like if you were in college at 16 years old and you did bad your 1st semester, those grades will still factor in the discussion no matter how you put it.


Also what's the difference from including a 18 year old players stats and a guy who is in the playoffs playing at like 38 or 39 years old? They will still be factored in overall.

[jmill]

How is it weak when those are his stats?

Like if you were in college at 16 years old and you did bad your 1st semester, those grades will still factor in the discussion no matter how you put it.


Also what's the difference from including a 18 year old players stats and a guy who is in the playoffs playing at like 38 or 39 years old? They will still be factored in overall.

It's weak because he was only playing 17 minutes a game and he was 18 years old.

Comparing an 18 year old getting 15 minutes per game and a 22 year old getting 42 minutes per game just makes no sense. Comparing their playoff numbers from when both were starting does make sense though.


And that analogy is awful.

Look at Michael Jordan, his last two years in the league were subpar but haven't affected his legacy at all. No one really cares about them because he was 39-40 and past his prime.

Hakeem Olajuwon, last year in the league, put up 5/4/0.5 in the playoffs. No one would ever consider that year a factor when comparing his playoff career to someone else's. Because no one cares about a year where they barely played because of diminishing skills.

[DonDadda59]

It's like I stepped into the twighlight zone. People debating Jordan vs 'insert name' in a civil manner using reasoned arguments? :wtf:

Now I've seen it all.

[hotsizzle]

27 of those games have come against the softest defenses imaginable - Phoenix, Denver and Utah. Kobe still couldn't outdo MJ's career averages :oldlol:

That said, it would be downright moronic to only take Kobe's playoff statistics since he hit his peak. His averages from 2000 onwards would be more fair...since that's the season when he truly became a star player.

Yea thats what I usually consider. His career averages suffer from playing limited time his first two seasons. His playoff averages being a full time starter are rougly

27/5.5 rpg/5/1.7 on 45%

EDIT: jmill got em exactly

[Da_Realist]

The stats are what they are. You can't pick and choose which stats to include in career averages. :oldlol: You can't throw away Kobe's early years because it was those losses to Utah that helped forge the Lakers 3-peat championships in the early 00's. Those misses by Kobe in Utah helped shape him into what he is now.

Now if you want to talk about the peak years, that's another story, but anybody can make up reasons why certain seasons shouldn't count. If MJ had stopped playing after 100 playoff games, his stats would be astronomical. The fact is, he chose to play 179. Everything counts.

Same with Kobe, Lebron and Dwyane. We can woulda, shoulda, coulda all day long, but the career averages include everything.

[branslowski]

The stats are what they are. You can't pick and choose which stats to include in career averages. :oldlol: You can't throw away Kobe's early years because it was those losses to Utah that helped forge the Lakers 3-peat championships in the early 00's. Those misses by Kobe in Utah helped shape him into what he is now.

Now if you want to talk about the peak years, that's another story, but anybody can make up reasons why certain seasons shouldn't count. If MJ had stopped playing after 100 playoff games, his stats would be astronomical. The fact is, he chose to play 179. Everything counts.

Same with Kobe, Lebron and Dwyane. We can woulda, shoulda, coulda all day long, but the career averages include everything.

I don't think he was only picking out the years Kobe did good....He was making the table's even...He used Kobe Bryant AS THE MAN of his team...AKA since Shaq left...MJ, LeBron, has alway's been the Man of their Teams, so that is their stats as so....So Fatal show'd Kobe's stats AS THE MAN....I know this doesn't matter, taking on how some ppl feel about Kobe...but it is what it is...:ohwell:

[branslowski]

Kobe as the #1 option has averaged 30/5.6/5.4 on 47.8% and 1.6 stl over 38 games. Very comparable to those numbers. Also consider that he has faced a 50+ win team (aside from Utah this year with 48 wins) every series. This includes a trip to the finals and probably a championship this year.

Wade imo still has been the best playoff performer. His stats are brought down by the series against the Bulls when he has played injured.

Lebron's performance has been very poor considering the level of competition he has faced (3 series vs. bottom 5 defensive team, 2 against sub .500 teams, this accounts for 67% of series he has been in). He is at the bottom of the rung right now.


In comparing their finals performances, consider that MJ has never even come close to facing a defense as good as the '08 Celtics or the '04 Pistons in the finals. They actually have a higher defensive rating than any team MJ has ever faced though it is pretty close to 90s Knicks (but then again, Jordan had a huge size advantage in his matchup with Starks). More physical yes, but not more intelligent. It is nearly impossible for a player to get any sort of dribble penetration against those two teams because of the layer of defenders in the lane which is anchored by the DPOY. This really blocks Kobe, Lebron or Wade from exploding against a good defense. Not saying Jordan had it any easier because he had ten eyes on him at all times but so did Kobe and Lebron against the Celtics.

I recently watched a couple of games from the Celtics/Lakers and Cavs/Celtics series and the defense is absolutely unrelenting. There is no chance at all for them to make a move in any direction because a help defender is ready to turn or has already turned to defend them right from the first dribble. Lebron only went off for one game in that series and it was when he was hitting ridiculous jumpers. Kobe who has a better jumpshot had such a hard time because not only was it impossible to get penetration, he was defended by a player 2 inches taller than him, who also happens to play excellent perimeter defense (again, I reiterate, Starks could never bother Jordan's shots, he was quick off his feet but the reach just wasn't there). The best I've seen Jordan defended in the finals was against the Sonics but even then he was uncharacteristically missing shots he would usually hit.

I don't think it is fair to make a conclusion of finals performances just yet when you take into account that Kobe went up against all-time great defenses in the finals while Jordan didn't. No sane and unbiased observer can ever even begin to argue that Lakers/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz were on the same level as the Pistons/Celtics. All except Sonics weren't even top 5 in the league during the very year Jordan faced them in the finals. Realistically though, Kobe has a shot to be in the finals for years to come so he can easily redeem himself.-fatal9

^^^These...:applause: ....Fatal9 owning as usual...:rockon:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Statistically, which of these guys will end their playoff careers with numbers close to (or surpassing) Jordan's playoff numbers?

The raw numbers...

Jordan 179 games, 41.8 mins, 33.4 pts, 6.4 rebs, 5.7 asts, 2.10 stls, .883 blks, 48.7 fg%

Bryant 157 games, 39.2 mins, 24.4 pts, 5.0 rebs, 4.7 asts, 1.41 stls, .662 blks, 44.6 fg%

James 50 games, 44.4 mins, 27.9 pts, 8.3 rebs, 7.3 asts, 1.62 stls, .780 blks, 43.9 fg%

Wade 55 games, 40.8 mins, 25.3 pts, 5.3 rebs, 6.0 asts, 1.72 stls, .949 blks, 47.6 fg%

For Kobe to match Jordan's playoff stats, he would need to average 98.4 pts, 13.2 asts, 16.4 rebs, 7.0 stls and 2.5 blks per game over the next 22 playoff games.

For Lebron to match, he would need to average 35.6 pts, 5.10 asts, 5.73 rebs, 2.29 stls and 0.92 blks per game over the next 129 playoff games.

For Dwyane to match, he would need to average 37.7 pts, 5.55 asts, 6.97 rebs, 2.28 stls, and 0.85 blks per game over the next 121 playoff games.

Realistically, MJ's ppg, fg% and spg are secure. Lebron's gonna pass his rebs and asts averages, but will have to work hard for a long time to better his blks per game. As great as he's played in this year's first round, he's "only" averaged .75 bpg. I'm just sayin'...

Wade may average more apg with a more realistic chance at beating MJ's blks per game. However, with his 6'4" frame I think averaging .85 blks per game over 121 games is a long shot.

Obviously, Kobe doesn't have a shot at anything. The averages really don't convey how far apart the production levels really are. Jordan averaged 5.7 asts per game, Kobe 4.7. That seems close, until you realize that Kobe needs to average 13.2 asts just to match Jordan's output in the same number of games.

Keep in mind that these numbers for Jordan include 4 past-prime postseasons (65+ games). Here are MJ's playoff averages upon retirement in 1993 (age 30), over the course of 111 playoff games:

34.8 pts/6.7 reb/6.7 ast/2.4 stl/1.1 blk/51.3% FG/29.7 PER

I mean, that's just insane. Basically 35/7/7/2+/1+/30 PER. Nutso.

[Da_Realist]

I don't think he was only picking out the years Kobe did good....He was making the table's even...He used Kobe Bryant AS THE MAN of his team...AKA since Shaq left...MJ, LeBron, has alway's been the Man of their Teams, so that is their stats as so....So Fatal show'd Kobe's stats AS THE MAN....I know this doesn't matter, taking on how some ppl feel about Kobe...but it is what it is...:ohwell:

Even this is skewed. Being "The Man" may have allowed Kobe to average more points, but being on a team good enough to push him into the #2 spot should have allowed him to concentrate on the other aspects of the game. But out of the four guys mentioned, he is dead last in assists per game, rebounds per game, steals per game, rebounds per game and next to last in fg%. :confusedshrug:

This really ain't supposed to be about Kobe but Kobe fans are the only ones complaining. His career numbers are what they are. I understand how you feel. I wish the league would strike MJ's avgs as a Wizard off the books. I'm sure Kareem doesn't like how his last years have dragged down his career averages. I'm sure Shaq doesn't think the 2006 Finals represent how good he used to be. Everyone has a few years they'd like to withdraw in terms of stats.

[FIXED]

Kevin Durant or O.J. Mayo, they have a real shot if they don't enter the playoff for 5 more years when they are close to their primes.

[branslowski]

Even this is skewed. Being "The Man" may have allowed Kobe to average more points, but being on a team good enough to push him into the #2 spot should have allowed him to concentrate on the other aspects of the game. But out of the four guys mentioned, he is dead last in assists per game, rebounds per game, steals per game, rebounds per game and next to last in fg%. :confusedshrug:

This really ain't supposed to be about Kobe but Kobe fans are the only ones complaining. His career numbers are what they are. I understand how you feel. I wish the league would strike MJ's avgs as a Wizard off the books. I'm sure Kareem doesn't like how his last years have dragged down his career averages. I'm sure Shaq doesn't think the 2006 Finals represent how good he used to be. Everyone has a few years they'd like to withdraw in terms of stats.

I don't know if your a AGENDA type guy, but, when you ask a question of, "Which of these guy's have a chance to statistically pass MJ"..what was the real point in putting Kobe in there if he would have to avg 98 or whatever ppg to be able to touch MJ?....Sorry, dont get it...:confusedshrug:

[Crash]

6 Times in the finals
6 Rings

Nobody on that list will do that.

[Da_Realist]

I don't know if your a AGENDA type guy, but, when you ask a question of, "Which of these guy's have a chance to statistically pass MJ"..what was the real point in putting Kobe in there if he would have to avg 98 or whatever ppg to be able to touch MJ?....Sorry, dont get it...:confusedshrug:

Because Kobe is one of the 3 best swingmen in the league. Couldn't leave him off. I guess my agenda would be...hey these guys are compared to MJ, let's see how they stack up in terms of playoff production. Kobe is the guy that has been compared to him the most so he had to be included.

I'm sure a lot of people would be surprised to know (as i was) the gap in production in the same amount of time is so large for Kobe comparitively.

[juju151111]

I don't know if your a AGENDA type guy, but, when you ask a question of, "Which of these guy's have a chance to statistically pass MJ"..what was the real point in putting Kobe in there if he would have to avg 98 or whatever ppg to be able to touch MJ?....Sorry, dont get it...:confusedshrug:
He said it because they were the best 3 players in the league. Even if we include kobe man years he won't catch up.

[Diesel J]

Making up BS as usual. LeBron's faced a BOTTOM 5 defensive team only once in his career - the 06-07 Wizards. He had NEVER faced a sub .500 team in the playoffs prior to facing Detroit this season.

45% of LeBron's playoff series' have come against the 3 best defensive teams of this decade - Detroit, SA & Boston. I think it's downright amazing despite all that he's still closest to MJ's numbers out of the Big 3.

Great point.



27 of those games have come against the softest defenses imaginable - Phoenix, Denver and Utah. Kobe still couldn't outdo MJ's career averages :oldlol:

That said, it would be downright moronic to only take Kobe's playoff statistics since he hit his peak. His averages from 2000 onwards would be more fair...since that's the season when he truly became a star player.

Even better point:oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

I don't think he was only picking out the years Kobe did good....He was making the table's even...He used Kobe Bryant AS THE MAN of his team...AKA since Shaq left...MJ, LeBron, has alway's been the Man of their Teams, so that is their stats as so....So Fatal show'd Kobe's stats AS THE MAN....I know this doesn't matter, taking on how some ppl feel about Kobe...but it is what it is...:ohwell:

Ok. I think you're right now that I've thought about it. Kobe's played 6150 mins. Jordan 7474. So Jordan played 1324 more minutes than Kobe has.

Right now, Kobe is playing around 39 mins per game. At that rate, he'll need an additional 34 games to reach 7474 mins. So, I'll use this instead for what Kobe would need to do to catch Jordan -- which is actually more "fair".

He would need to average 63.65 pts, 8.56 asts, 10.6 rebs, 4.56 stls and 1.59 blks per game over the next 33 games if he averages 39 min per game.

[Diesel J]

Keep in mind that these numbers for Jordan include 4 past-prime postseasons (65+ games). Here are MJ's playoff averages upon retirement in 1993 (age 30), over the course of 111 playoff games:

34.8 pts/6.7 reb/6.7 ast/2.4 stl/1.1 blk/51.3% FG/29.7 PER

I mean, that's just insane. Basically 35/7/7/2+/1+/30 PER. Nutso.

The GOAT:pimp:

[LA_Showtime]

Ok. I think you're right now that I've thought about it. Kobe's played 6150 mins. Jordan 7474. So Jordan played 1324 more minutes than Kobe has.

Right now, Kobe is playing around 39 mins per game. At that rate, he'll need an additional 34 games to reach 7474 mins. So, I'll use this instead for what Kobe would need to do to catch Jordan -- which is actually more "fair".

He would need to average 63.65 pts, 8.56 asts, 10.6 rebs, 4.56 stls and 1.59 blks per game over the next 33 games if he averages 39 min per game.

Anything is possible! Except for that...

[branslowski]

Ok. I think you're right now that I've thought about it. Kobe's played 6150 mins. Jordan 7474. So Jordan played 1324 more minutes than Kobe has.

Right now, Kobe is playing around 39 mins per game. At that rate, he'll need an additional 34 games to reach 7474 mins. So, I'll use this instead for what Kobe would need to do to catch Jordan -- which is actually more "fair".

He would need to average 63.65 pts, 8.56 asts, 10.6 rebs, 4.56 stls and 1.59 blks per game over the next 33 games if he averages 39 min per game.

All good bro...Either way anyone slice's it...MJ is the GOAT...PERIOD..I would like to apologize for the small population of Kobe fans who think's otherwise...:cheers:

[Da_Realist]

All good bro...Either way anyone slice's it...MJ is the GOAT...PERIOD..I would like to apologize for the small population of Kobe fans who think's otherwise...:cheers:

It wasn't really meant to establish that MJ = GOAT (although it does show how truly dominant he was). I posted it to give me something to think about when I watch the playoffs during the next 10 years or so. Kobe's averages are lower than the rest but he's played 3 times as many games as Lebron and DWade. How will their averages rise or fall over the course of 100 additional playoff games?

Lebron's gonna own the best rebounds and assists playoff averages out of the 4, can he steal another one from Jordan?

How will DWade match up to Lebron over the course of their careers?

How much will Kobe's career averages fall? Or will his assists increase with all the talent on his team?

These are the sort of things I'm watching to make things more interesting.

[Allstar24]

A new section should be created for retired players...where fans can gush about their idols all day long.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Anything is possible! Except for that...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3217/2590779946_1abddbde40.jpg

:oldlol:

[jmill]

Great point.




Even better point:oldlol:


Indeed. Though it's also a fair point that Kobe ripped apart the same Spurs in the WCF last year that shut down LBJ the year before.

[Alpha Wolf]

GOAT?


ESPN has been paid umpteen million dollars by NIKE to pump up Jordan as the GOAT... as long as the money flows, ESPN will toe the line.

the whole image of Jordan is a media fabrication and the "greatest of all time" talk is nonsense

[All Net]

No one really, suppose Lebron has a chance.

[Showtime]

ESPN has been paid umpteen million dollars by NIKE to pump up Jordan as the GOAT... as long as the money flows, ESPN will toe the line.
:roll:

[branslowski]

GOAT?


ESPN has been paid umpteen million dollars by NIKE to pump up Jordan as the GOAT... as long as the money flows, ESPN will toe the line.

the whole image of Jordan is a media fabrication and the "greatest of all time" talk is nonsense

As a fellow Kobe fan, dude, STOP!!!!

You will attract the Kobe hater Troll's who are sleeping at the moment...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

GOAT?


ESPN has been paid umpteen million dollars by NIKE to pump up Jordan as the GOAT... as long as the money flows, ESPN will toe the line.

the whole image of Jordan is a media fabrication and the "greatest of all time" talk is nonsense

as perhaps the oldest laker fans here, i implore you to chill.
you are beginning to come off as a troll...like so many kobe, lebron and mj posters herein.

when some tool, living in the past, wants to remind us YET AGAIN that mj was great, just give him one of these :sleeping or one of these :rolleyes:
and move on.

[DonDadda59]

Indeed. Though it's also a fair point that Kobe ripped apart the same Spurs in the WCF last year that shut down LBJ the year before.

Dwayne Wade making a mockery of the same Pistons line up that shut Kobe's **** down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdlEFMIA5Y

30+ PPG 60+% (don't have the #s in front of me) :eek:

It goes both ways...

[Diesel J]

Indeed. Though it's also a fair point that Kobe ripped apart the same Spurs in the WCF last year that shut down LBJ the year before.

I clearly remember Kobe last year playing with Gasol and Odom in that series while the year before Lebron was banking on Boobie Gibson and Gooden for help. Larry Hughes didn't even play:oldlol: Lberon clearly had the inferior sidekicks and didn't face a hobbled Manu in the FInals like the Lakers did in their run last season:applause:

[DonDadda59]

GOAT?


ESPN has been paid umpteen million dollars by NIKE to pump up Jordan as the GOAT... as long as the money flows, ESPN will toe the line.

the whole image of Jordan is a media fabrication and the "greatest of all time" talk is nonsense

The conspiracy goes much deeper than that...

I have a classified dossier showing that David Stern was the second shooter in the grassy knowl during Kennedy's assassination. Turns out Stern was at that time an up and coming member of the New World Order (NWO) and was involved in an illegal genetic engineering program that eventually lead to the creation of hybrid athletes like MJ and Lebron. The government was getting in the way, so they cut off the head. Stern has set up the same deal with Nike/ESPN for Lebron that Jordan had. They pay off teams to tank games and series against MJ and Bron, meanwhile they bribe the same squads to 'zone sandwich' Kobe everytime on D. That's why there's such a huge disparity in production. It's all a conspiracy to make MJ and Lebron look much better than they are and to make Kobe just seem grossly overrated.

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/1x-files-gal-jfk.jpg

Do you see? It's all right there, you almost got it all figured out.

[imdaman99]

Didn't Jordan himself state that Joe Dumars was most difficult single defender he ever had to face? And Dumars was listed at 6'3. Gary Payton, another notable defender, was listed at 6'4. John Starks was also listed at 6'3", the same height as Joe Dumars, and one inch shorter than Gary Payton. So I don't really buy your defender's height argument. I don't actually think anyone does.
All that talk is just posturing. Kobe does that same by saying that Ray Allen is the guy that guards him the toughest. Ray Allen???? Really? He only said Dumars and Starks because while he had a few bad games with those guys guarding him, he also exploited them 99% of the time because of their height.

We all know in our heart of hearts that no one player can stop any of these superstars. It takes great team defense to slow down a superstar, but an individual who can bother the heck out of that guy helps by 100%.

Just my opinion, what do I know, I'm just an ISH analyst.

NO ONE is gonna touch MJ's #s. I wish you guys would stop putting the stars of today down because you worshipped anything and everything about MJ. We get it. Everyday 10 new threads about how Kobe will never be half as good as MJ's balls. Sigh.

[catch24]

The conspiracy goes much deeper than that...

I have a classified dossier showing that David Stern was the second shooter in the grassy knowl during Kennedy's assassination. Turns out Stern was at that time an up and coming member of the New World Order (NWO) and was involved in an illegal genetic engineering program that eventually lead to the creation of hybrid athletes like MJ and Lebron. The government was getting in the way, so they cut off the head. Stern has set up the same deal with Nike/ESPN for Lebron that Jordan had. They pay off teams to tank games and series against MJ and Bron, meanwhile they bribe the same squads to 'zone sandwich' Kobe everytime on D. That's why there's such a huge disparity in production. It's all a conspiracy to make MJ and Lebron look much better than they are and to make Kobe just seem grossly overrated.

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/1x-files-gal-jfk.jpg

Do you see? It's all right there, you almost got it all figured out.

lmfao!!!

Alphatroll =cumdumpster

[bruceblitz]

Statistically, which of these guys will end their playoff careers with numbers close to (or surpassing) Jordan's playoff numbers?

The raw numbers...

Jordan 179 games, 41.8 mins, 33.4 pts, 6.4 rebs, 5.7 asts, 2.10 stls, .883 blks, 48.7 fg%

Bryant 157 games, 39.2 mins, 24.4 pts, 5.0 rebs, 4.7 asts, 1.41 stls, .662 blks, 44.6 fg%

James 50 games, 44.4 mins, 27.9 pts, 8.3 rebs, 7.3 asts, 1.62 stls, .780 blks, 43.9 fg%

Wade 55 games, 40.8 mins, 25.3 pts, 5.3 rebs, 6.0 asts, 1.72 stls, .949 blks, 47.6 fg%

For Kobe to match Jordan's playoff stats, he would need to average 98.4 pts, 13.2 asts, 16.4 rebs, 7.0 stls and 2.5 blks per game over the next 22 playoff games.

For Lebron to match, he would need to average 35.6 pts, 5.10 asts, 5.73 rebs, 2.29 stls and 0.92 blks per game over the next 129 playoff games.

For Dwyane to match, he would need to average 37.7 pts, 5.55 asts, 6.97 rebs, 2.28 stls, and 0.85 blks per game over the next 121 playoff games.

Realistically, MJ's ppg, fg% and spg are secure. Lebron's gonna pass his rebs and asts averages, but will have to work hard for a long time to better his blks per game. As great as he's played in this year's first round, he's "only" averaged .75 bpg. I'm just sayin'...

Wade may average more apg with a more realistic chance at beating MJ's blks per game. However, with his 6'4" frame I think averaging .85 blks per game over 121 games is a long shot.

Obviously, Kobe doesn't have a shot at anything. The averages really don't convey how far apart the production levels really are. Jordan averaged 5.7 asts per game, Kobe 4.7. That seems close, until you realize that Kobe needs to average 13.2 asts just to match Jordan's output in the same number of games.

You answered your own question. Nobody matches up to playoff Jordan. NOOOOOOOOOBODY. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0HPbGz915I

Bonus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55n75MXOJ28&feature=channel_page

[andgar923]

Kobe fans and stans never seem to amaze me. :applause:

[Fatal9]

Kobe fans and stans never seem to amaze me. :applause:
Think the word you are looking for is "cease"

[andgar923]

Think the word you are looking for is "cease"



Yeah that too.

[branslowski]

A new section should be created for retired players...where fans can gush about their idols all day long.

This...:cheers:

[YAWN]

Obviously, Kobe doesn't have a shot at anything. The averages really don't convey how far apart the production levels really are. Jordan averaged 5.7 asts per game, Kobe 4.7. That seems close, until you realize that Kobe needs to average 13.2 asts just to match Jordan's output in the same number of games.
averaging 8/1/1 over his first two playoff runs prob didnt help this either.

in regards to the question at hand though, none of them will.

[Da_Realist]

averaging 8/1/1 over his first two playoff runs prob didnt help this either.

in regards to the question at hand though, none of them will.

Disregarding his first 2 playoff runs...

Kobe averaged 26.7 pts, 5.5 rebs, 5.1 asts, 1.6 stls, .69 blks on 44.8 fg% over 137 playoff games.

James 50 games, 27.9 pts, 8.3 rebs, 7.3 asts, 1.6 stls, .78 blks, 43.9 fg%

Wade 55 games, 25.3 pts, 5.3 rebs, 6.0 asts, 1.7 stls, .95 blks, 47.6 fg%

To catch MJ, he would need to average 91 pts, 7.6 asts, 9.4 rebs, 3.8 stls and 1.5 blks per game over the next 42 games.

[TheGreatDeraj]

So there's still a chance!

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/65/jimcarreydumbdumberc101.jpg

[andgar923]

So there's still a chance!

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/65/jimcarreydumbdumberc101.jpg

LOL

[xtn5021]

I dont think anybody could.

[Bonez]

Kobe will pass Jordan easily in all these categories.

typical retarded response from a delusional kobe stan

[jmill]

typical retarded response from a delusional kobe stan

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3342/lebronsittingrc8.jpg



Did you even read the post?

But the averaging 98 points seems a bit extreme, are you sure that's right? I can sort of see it since Kobe has far less games to do it than Wade or LeBron but still...



Yes, I read the post, I thought given the OP the point of this thread was for everyone to try and make the dumbest post possible.

Reading comprehension, not for everyone apparently.

[Dro]

Get real. The only teams Jordan faced even close to the Pistons and Celtics were the 80s Detroit and 90s Knicks.. and none of those teams had a KG or Ben Wallace type presence down low.

The Detroit team that Kobe faced was one of the greatest defensive teams of all time.. no doubt. They were sick. So was Boston last year.. Posey, Rondo, Pierce, Ray, Tony Allen, Kendrick, KG.. thats a whole squad of guys that can play D.
I'm sorry but did not anyone point out this ridiculous post?

Ben Wallace? KG?

Have you ever ****ing heard of Patrick Ewing, or Charles Oakley, or hell, ****ing Charles Smith? Anthony Mason? They even had guys like Anthony Bonner on those teams knocking Jordan on his ass......That team had a defensive rating on 98.2......1st in the NBA.....

Have you heard of Dennis Rodman, John Salley, Bill Laimbeer, James Edwards? Joe Dumars. Yeah, they were knocking Jordan on his ass too..That Pistons team had a defensive rating of 103.5........2nd in the NBA that year.....

The Celtics team that beat Jordan the year he avg. 37ppg, had a defensive rating of 106.8, only good for 9th in the NBA.....

Anybody trying to argue against this is an idiot.......

Hell, I'm not even a Jordan fan...

[Bush4Ever]

I'm sorry but did not anyone point out this ridiculous post?

Ben Wallace? KG?

Have you ever ****ing heard of Patrick Ewing, or Charles Oakley, or hell, ****ing Charles Smith? Anthony Mason? They even had guys like Anthony Bonner on those teams knocking Jordan on his ass......That team had a defensive rating on 98.2......1st in the NBA.....

Have you heard of Dennis Rodman, John Salley, Bill Laimbeer, James Edwards? Joe Dumars. Yeah, they were knocking Jordan on his ass too..That Pistons team had a defensive rating of 103.5........2nd in the NBA that year.....

The Celtics team that beat Jordan the year he avg. 37ppg, had a defensive rating of 106.8, only good for 9th in the NBA.....

Anybody trying to argue against this is an idiot.......

Hell, I'm not even a Jordan fan...

Well, far be it from me to defend a Kobe Fan, but in a way he is correct. Relative to the time, Jordan faced tough defenses, but in an absolute sense, Kobe has faced tougher defenses in the Finals as a lead player.

The 2008 Celtics gave up 98.9 points per 100 possessions and the 2004 Pistons gave up 95.4 points per 100 possessions.

The bad boy Pistons gave up far more points per possession, and the Ewing Knicks gave up about the same points per possession as the Celtics, and Jordan struggled in the 94 series against the Knicks shooting and scoring the ball (albeit, he was injured for part of the series).

[Da_Realist]

Well, far be it from me to defend a Kobe Fan, but in a way he is correct. Relative to the time, Jordan faced tough defenses, but in an absolute sense, Kobe has faced tougher defenses in the Finals as a lead player.

The 2008 Celtics gave up 98.9 points per 100 possessions and the 2004 Pistons gave up 95.4 points per 100 possessions.

The bad boy Pistons gave up far more points per possession, and the Ewing Knicks gave up about the same points per possession as the Celtics, and Jordan struggled in the 94 series against the Knicks shooting and scoring the ball (albeit, he was injured for part of the series).

I don't know the numbers, but those Knicks and Pistons are on par with any defensive team regardless of the times. Even with that being said, Kobe faced the Celtics ONCE and the Pistons ONCE. 2 times he faced a top flight defense and one of those times he had Shaq. Both times he struggled.

Jordan faced Daly's Pistons 4 times, Riley's Knicks twice, Riley's Heat once, Van Gundy's Knicks once and the Gary Payton-led Sonics once.

That's 9 times against high level defensive teams. I don't know where they rank according to the numbers, but those were very good defensive teams. Not only that...Jordan's defenders were more complete. Jordan also had to guard John Starks, Joe Dumars, Gary Payton, Hersey Hawkins, Gerald Wilkins, etc. who were all bigger offensive threats than who Kobe primarily defended in the Celtics and Pistons series.

Not to mention that he had to face Shaq, Ewing, Motumbo, Mourning and Daugherty a combined 10 times on the way to the Finals. He also faced Dennis Johnson (Celtics) twice and Sidney Moncrief (Bucks) once.

[Bush4Ever]

I don't know the numbers, but those Knicks and Pistons are on par with any defensive team regardless of the times.

I'm with you on the other issues (see my other posts in this thread), but there is no evidence for this. In fact, the evidence runs counter to the idea that those two defenses were equal to the 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics.

The teams you cited gave up more points per possession (per basketball reference) than the 04 Pistons, and for the most part, more than the 08 Celtics as well.

How is that not relevant or valid here?

Particularly in 2008 with the Celtics, team defense has gotten more sophisticated over the years. There is nothing wrong with admitting that.

[Da_Realist]

I'm with you on the other issues (see my other posts in this thread), but there is no evidence for this. In fact, the evidence runs counter to the idea that those two defenses were equal to the 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics.

The teams you cited gave up more points per possession (per basketball reference) than the 04 Pistons, and for the most part, more than the 08 Celtics as well.

How is that not relevant or valid here?

Particularly in 2008 with the Celtics, team defense has gotten more sophisticated over the years. There is nothing wrong with admitting that.

It's more than numbers. The Knicks and Pistons had to play better overall teams with more dynamic offenses than what the 08 Celtics and 04 Pistons faced.

Daly's Pistons had to play the late 80's Celtics, MJ's Bulls and the Showtime Lakers. Those teams are going to score more than Lebron's Cavs and Kobe/Gasol's Lakers no matter how great the Pistons defense was.

Same with the Knicks. The 92/93 Suns, Bulls, Cavs, Celtics were all better offensively than what the 08 Celtics and 04 Pistons faced so the numbers are going to be skewed.

[OldSchoolBBall]

It's more than numbers. The Knicks and Pistons had to play better overall teams with more dynamic offenses than what the 08 Celtics and 04 Pistons faced.

Daly's Pistons had to play the late 80's Celtics, MJ's Bulls and the Showtime Lakers. Those teams are going to score more than Lebron's Cavs and Kobe/Gasol's Lakers no matter how great the Pistons defense was.

Same with the Knicks. The 92/93 Suns, Bulls, Cavs, Celtics were all better offensively than what the 08 Celtics and 04 Pistons faced so the numbers are going to be skewed.

Yup, I don't think people get this. Basically, even if you transported teams like the '08 Celts and '04 Pistons back to '86-'90, they wouldn't have the same DRtg (points per 100 possessions) as they did in '04 or '08. They'd both be higher. These are teams that are terrific defenses in terrible offensive leagues (as compared to back then). This creates a perfect storm for having a great Drtg.

[Bush4Ever]

Yup, I don't think people get this. Basically, even if you transported teams like the '08 Celts and '04 Pistons back to '86-'90, they wouldn't have the same DRtg (points per 100 possessions) as they did in '04 or '08. They'd both be higher. These are teams that are terrific defenses in terrible offensive leagues (as compared to back then). This creates a perfect storm for having a great Drtg.


I see the point, but I don't think it is quite as easy to disentangle offenses and defenses of different eras, particularly when one variable in question (defense) directly and strongly influences the other variable in question (offensive performance). When one has great offense, it can be because the offense is super-great and succeeding despite great defense or it can be because the defenses faced are relatively subpar. The inverse and reverse of all of that is true as well.


I also think it is fairly obvious that defenses at the team level has gotten more sophisticated over the last 15 years, and certainly since the 80s. That is my perception as a fan.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I see the point, but I don't think it is quite as easy to disentangle offenses and defenses of different eras, particularly when one variable in question (defense) directly and strongly influences the other variable in question (offensive performance). When one has great offense, it can be because the offense is super-great and succeeding despite great defense or it can be because the defenses faced are relatively subpar. The inverse and reverse of all of that is true as well.


I also think it is fairly obvious that defenses at the team level has gotten more sophisticated over the last 15 years, and certainly since the 80s. That is my perception as a fan.

That holds both ways, though. Part of the reason why some of these defenses are so successful is because teams trot out 4, or even only 3, guys who can make you pay on offense. These teams specialize in taking away your first and second options, and leaving lesser options open. When that lesser option could still drop 20 points if left open for jumpers, as they could in the 80's, that will hurt. When that option will simply NOT EVEN ATTEMPT a short or midrange jumper (say, Varejao or Wallace), that hurts the offense. There was none of this "defensive specialist" stuff back then. There were great defenders, but virtually no "specialists" (and the ones that existed were big men like Eaton and Bol). If you couldn't be counted on to hit shots or make plays, you sat. Never would a team give floor time to an offensive liability like Bruce Bowen, for instance.

I recall a Cavs/Celts game in particular from either early this season or last season, and I was STUNNED at how many wide open 10-15 footers guys like Varejao/Wallace were getting. Yes, some of that might have been by design (the Celts obviously want them shooting as opposed to James), but a lot of it is because a team simply CANNOT DEFEND 5 positions on the floor in a well designed offense. It's just not possible. We can even see this now with the Lakers, easily the team with the most offensive firepower in the NBA. A big reason for their offensive success is because EVERYONE can make you pay, inside or out.

I do agree with your concluding paragraph, but I also feel that the amount said defenses have improved is overstated by fans who look strictly at Drtg (or, worse, team ppg/FG%), since if you transplanted the top 5 defensive teams from 2005 into the 1987 NBA, they wouldn't have the same (or even similar) DRtg or ppg/FG% allowed. They might lead the league or be top 3 in said metrics, but not with the same absolute numbers. Yet it is these absolute numbers that some people use to disparage the defenses of those days. It's silly imo.

[Fatal9]

Yup, I don't think people get this. Basically, even if you transported teams like the '08 Celts and '04 Pistons back to '86-'90, they wouldn't have the same DRtg (points per 100 possessions) as they did in '04 or '08. They'd both be higher. These are teams that are terrific defenses in terrible offensive leagues (as compared to back then). This creates a perfect storm for having a great Drtg.
What you credit to better offense could easily be poorer defense. The biggest benefiacry of zones are teams with poor individual defenders who don't have to guard a star player man to man any more. A classic example is the 1993 finals. Suns had absolutely no one to matchup with Jordan and could only put KJ or Majerle on them, both horrible choices considering KJ couldn't stop bother Jordan's shot and Majerle couldn't stay in front of him. With the zone, it would still be a pretty bad matchup for them but at least players would be in position to stop Jordan from getting in the lane so easily.

Posters like you (and bruceblitz) want everyone to believe every team was loaded with excellent defenders and played a level of defense that was as physical and intelligent as the 90s Knicks and late 80s Pistons, but weaker teams have literally NO answer. I mean, I am sorry but Jordan against the '08 Celtics would not play well on a game by game basis. Jordan really benefitted from the "non-zone" era because players that sized up with him couldn't prevent him from blowing past them and players that could prevent this (Dumars, KJ etc.) could not bother his jumpshot because they were 3-4 inches shorter. He was a nightmare matchup in this sense and if a team like the Celtics who have 6'8 long perimeter defenders to bother your shot and then have zoned up to cover the star player off the very first dribble, MJ would struggle too. You know this better than anyone.

[Bush4Ever]

Jordan really benefitted from the "non-zone" era because players that sized up with him couldn't prevent him from blowing past them and players that could prevent this (Dumars, KJ etc.) could not bother his jumpshot because they were 3-4 inches shorter.

Then again, what would Jordan do with a lack of handchecking?

I think it is perfectly possible that Jordan would get into the lane much more quickly because of the lack of outside contact allowed, thus making any rotation that much more difficult.


Jordan also moved very well without the basketball. That might be the most overlooked part of his offensive game.

Truthfully, reducing these types of arguments to a select few factors is probably somewhat invalid, because there are a number of relevant factors, some of which favored the older eras, some of which favor the newer eras.

Then again, looking at all possible factors becomes cognitively difficult.

[juju151111]

What you credit to better offense could easily be poorer defense. The biggest benefiacry of zones are teams with poor individual defenders who don't have to guard a star player man to man any more. A classic example is the 1993 finals. Suns had absolutely no one to matchup with Jordan and could only put KJ or Majerle on them, both horrible choices considering KJ couldn't stop bother Jordan's shot and Majerle couldn't stay in front of him. With the zone, it would still be a pretty bad matchup for them but at least players would be in position to stop Jordan from getting in the lane so easily.

Posters like you (and bruceblitz) want everyone to believe every team was loaded with excellent defenders and played a level of defense that was as physical and intelligent as the 90s Knicks and late 80s Pistons, but weaker teams have literally NO answer. I mean, I am sorry but Jordan against the '08 Celtics would not play well on a game by game basis. Jordan really benefitted from the "non-zone" era because players that sized up with him couldn't prevent him from blowing past them and players that could prevent this (Dumars, KJ etc.) could not bother his jumpshot because they were 3-4 inches shorter. He was a nightmare matchup in this sense and if a team like the Celtics who have 6'8 long perimeter defenders to bother your shot and then have zoned up to cover the star player off the very first dribble, MJ would struggle too. You know this better than anyone.
LOL Go watch 92 series vs the knicks. They were playing zone. Its on youtube so no excuses. He still got by them.Also MJ isn't kobe and wouldn't struggle especially with no handchecking.

[Diesel J]

What you credit to better offense could easily be poorer defense. The biggest benefiacry of zones are teams with poor individual defenders who don't have to guard a star player man to man any more. A classic example is the 1993 finals. Suns had absolutely no one to matchup with Jordan and could only put KJ or Majerle on them, both horrible choices considering KJ couldn't stop bother Jordan's shot and Majerle couldn't stay in front of him. With the zone, it would still be a pretty bad matchup for them but at least players would be in position to stop Jordan from getting in the lane so easily.

Posters like you (and bruceblitz) want everyone to believe every team was loaded with excellent defenders and played a level of defense that was as physical and intelligent as the 90s Knicks and late 80s Pistons, but weaker teams have literally NO answer. I mean, I am sorry but Jordan against the '08 Celtics would not play well on a game by game basis. Jordan really benefitted from the "non-zone" era because players that sized up with him couldn't prevent him from blowing past them and players that could prevent this (Dumars, KJ etc.) could not bother his jumpshot because they were 3-4 inches shorter. He was a nightmare matchup in this sense and if a team like the Celtics who have 6'8 long perimeter defenders to bother your shot and then have zoned up to cover the star player off the very first dribble, MJ would struggle too. You know this better than anyone.

nonsense:oldlol:

[catch24]

40ppg during the '93 Finals is pretty ridiculous though. Don't know whether to go with terrible defense or MJ just being LITERALLY unstoppable. :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

What you credit to better offense could easily be poorer defense. The biggest benefiacry of zones are teams with poor individual defenders who don't have to guard a star player man to man any more. A classic example is the 1993 finals. Suns had absolutely no one to matchup with Jordan and could only put KJ or Majerle on them, both horrible choices considering KJ couldn't stop bother Jordan's shot and Majerle couldn't stay in front of him. With the zone, it would still be a pretty bad matchup for them but at least players would be in position to stop Jordan from getting in the lane so easily.

Posters like you (and bruceblitz) want everyone to believe every team was loaded with excellent defenders and played a level of defense that was as physical and intelligent as the 90s Knicks and late 80s Pistons, but weaker teams have literally NO answer. I mean, I am sorry but Jordan against the '08 Celtics would not play well on a game by game basis. Jordan really benefitted from the "non-zone" era because players that sized up with him couldn't prevent him from blowing past them and players that could prevent this (Dumars, KJ etc.) could not bother his jumpshot because they were 3-4 inches shorter. He was a nightmare matchup in this sense and if a team like the Celtics who have 6'8 long perimeter defenders to bother your shot and then have zoned up to cover the star player off the very first dribble, MJ would struggle too. You know this better than anyone.

You need to get this idea out of your head that just because Kobe couldn't get it done against teams like Bos and DET (or Philly or IND) doesn't mean Jordan wouldn't. Also, all of the great defensive teams of this decade, especially the Pistons under Larry Brown and the Spurs, hardly if ever utilized 'zone' defense because smart coaches know it's useless against NBA calibre players (unless it's for a handful of possessions to disrupt flow/give a different look). And Jordan played all those 6'8" perimeter players and completely waxed them... at age 38-40, when those guys were younger and more athletic.

If a 38 year old MJ could do this to DPOY 6'11 Garnett:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMd1m-OOWH0

This to Pierce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKS7uZ40kqU&feature=related

This to Posey at age 40:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhPsuzUZ69U

He suffered many injuries during his wizards stint and played SF primarily(and a little PF), before the injuries he was the only player in the league besides TMac putting up at least 25/5/5 during the 'zone' era and before contact was completely outlawed on the perimeter. Why oh why would this guy struggle against these guys and their 'zone' w/o touching if his old, broken down self dominated?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxG6F8qKsoQ

**** outa here :roll:

[andgar923]

What you credit to better offense could easily be poorer defense. The biggest benefiacry of zones are teams with poor individual defenders who don't have to guard a star player man to man any more. A classic example is the 1993 finals. Suns had absolutely no one to matchup with Jordan and could only put KJ or Majerle on them, both horrible choices considering KJ couldn't stop bother Jordan's shot and Majerle couldn't stay in front of him. With the zone, it would still be a pretty bad matchup for them but at least players would be in position to stop Jordan from getting in the lane so easily.

Posters like you (and bruceblitz) want everyone to believe every team was loaded with excellent defenders and played a level of defense that was as physical and intelligent as the 90s Knicks and late 80s Pistons, but weaker teams have literally NO answer. I mean, I am sorry but Jordan against the '08 Celtics would not play well on a game by game basis. Jordan really benefitted from the "non-zone" era because players that sized up with him couldn't prevent him from blowing past them and players that could prevent this (Dumars, KJ etc.) could not bother his jumpshot because they were 3-4 inches shorter. He was a nightmare matchup in this sense and if a team like the Celtics who have 6'8 long perimeter defenders to bother your shot and then have zoned up to cover the star player off the very first dribble, MJ would struggle too. You know this better than anyone.

LOL

People really bought the "zone" argument?

KPAH at his best.

[OldSchoolBBall]

A classic example is the 1993 finals. Suns had absolutely no one to matchup with Jordan and could only put KJ or Majerle on them, both horrible choices considering KJ couldn't stop bother Jordan's shot and Majerle couldn't stay in front of him.

Yeah, they only had a second team defensive member that season and also a 6'8" super athletic SF if they wanted to put him on MJ (they tried and he got roasted). You can't look at the results and conclude that these guys weren't good defenders (you're essentially calling them "nobodies"), or else Mutombo sucks too because Shaq destroyed him in 2001.


Posters like you (and bruceblitz) want everyone to believe every team was loaded with excellent defenders and played a level of defense that was as physical and intelligent as the 90s Knicks and late 80s Pistons, but weaker teams have literally NO answer. I mean, I am sorry but Jordan against the '08 Celtics would not play well on a game by game basis. Jordan really benefitted from the "non-zone" era because players that sized up with him couldn't prevent him from blowing past them and players that could prevent this (Dumars, KJ etc.) could not bother his jumpshot because they were 3-4 inches shorter. He was a nightmare matchup in this sense and if a team like the Celtics who have 6'8 long perimeter defenders to bother your shot and then have zoned up to cover the star player off the very first dribble, MJ would struggle too. You know this better than anyone.

:oldlol:

Nice obfuscation and bullsh&t. :oldlol: How does this address the post of mine you quoted? Oh yeah, it doesn't. At all. Fact: any defensive team from the last 5 seasons would NOT have the same exact DRtg and ppg/FG% allowed is they were transported back into the 80's. Fact.

And yeah, I'm sure Pierce and Posey could stay in front of MJ. :oldlol: You make the same mistake all Kobe nvthuggers do (and that's what you are) -- you think that if Kobe couldn't or didn't do something, then no one could. Rubbish. Kobe != Jordan. Even Lebron isn't as quick as Jordan. Further, Jordan was a much smarter offensive player than either of them, and he didn't have Lebron's offensive deficiencies (from last season). He also did a ton more work off the ball, instead of dribbling around at the top of the key for 12 seconds like a retard like Kobe repeatedly did. :rolleyes:

They'd limit him as well as anyone could, of course, but lol @ you if you're expecting '89-'93 Jordan to be held to sub 26 ppg on sub-41% shooting like Kobe and Lebron were. Seriously, LOL @ you. Here, let me show you: :oldlol:

[Dro]

Well I guess oldschool and others have officially shut this thread down, lol

[Fatal9]

40ppg during the '93 Finals is pretty ridiculous though. Don't know whether to go with terrible defense or MJ just being LITERALLY unstoppable. :confusedshrug:
Dude, they had KJ or Majerle to guard him for most of the game. KJ was a good 6 inches shorter and MJ took him to the post or simply rose up over him. Majerle was taller but MJ rarely posted him up because he was so much quicker than him and because there was no zone, the help was way too late and MJ would usually lay it in or shoot FTs. I didn't even know this was debatable :confusedshrug:

[Fatal9]

You need to get this idea out of your head that just because Kobe couldn't get it done against teams like Bos and DET (or Philly or IND) doesn't mean Jordan wouldn't. Also, all of the great defensive teams of this decade, especially the Pistons under Larry Brown and the Spurs, hardly if ever utilized 'zone' defense because smart coaches know it's useless against NBA calibre players (unless it's for a handful of possessions to disrupt flow/give a different look). And Jordan played all those 6'8" perimeter players and completely waxed them... at age 38-40, when those guys were younger and more athletic.

If a 38 year old MJ could do this to DPOY 6'11 Garnett:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMd1m-OOWH0

This to Pierce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKS7uZ40kqU&feature=related

This to Posey at age 40:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhPsuzUZ69U

He suffered many injuries during his wizards stint and played SF primarily(and a little PF), before the injuries he was the only player in the league besides TMac putting up at least 25/5/5 during the 'zone' era and before contact was completely outlawed on the perimeter. Why oh why would this guy struggle against these guys and their 'zone' w/o touching if his old, broken down self dominated?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxG6F8qKsoQ

**** outa here :roll:
You really are an idiot to bring up videos of the Wolves, Pre-KG Celtics and Rockets when all these guys were playing with different teams and weren't even close to exhibiting the type of defense they played against Lebron and Kobe. The argument is Detroit and Boston were better than any team Jordan faced in the finals (this is undeniable) and in the playoffs (this is a bit more arguable). You're making a very weak case by posting these videos that have nothing to do with anything (somehow trying to link the Wolves, 2001 Celtics and 2001 Rockets defense to the '04 Pistons and the '08 Celtics).

[catch24]

Dude, they had KJ or Majerle to guard him for most of the game. KJ was a good 6 inches shorter and MJ took him to the post or simply rose up over him. Majerle was taller but MJ rarely posted him up because he was so much quicker than him and because there was no zone, the help was way too late and MJ would usually lay it in or shoot FTs. I didn't even know this was debatable :confusedshrug:

You might be on to something chip

[OldSchoolBBall]

Dude, they had KJ or Majerle to guard him for most of the game. KJ was a good 6 inches shorter and MJ took him to the post or simply rose up over him. Majerle was taller but MJ rarely posted him up because he was so much quicker than him and because there was no zone, the help was way too late and MJ would usually lay it in or shoot FTs. I didn't even know this was debatable :confusedshrug:

They also tried 6'8" super athletic Dumas on him and he got burned. What you don't get is that Jordan was a matchup nightmare in general, and was a much smarter ballplayer than Kobe besides. LOL @ you suggesting that James freaking Posey is gonna stay in front of '89-'93 Jordan. :oldlol:

KJ was 6'1"-6'2", btw. And we all know that Jordan never posted up guys his size or bigger, right? :oldlol:

[phoenix18]

All that talk is just posturing. Kobe does that same by saying that Ray Allen is the guy that guards him the toughest. Ray Allen???? Really? He only said Dumars and Starks because while he had a few bad games with those guys guarding him, he also exploited them 99% of the time because of their height.

We all know in our heart of hearts that no one player can stop any of these superstars. It takes great team defense to slow down a superstar, but an individual who can bother the heck out of that guy helps by 100%.

Just my opinion, what do I know, I'm just an ISH analyst.

NO ONE is gonna touch MJ's #s. I wish you guys would stop putting the stars of today down because you worshipped anything and everything about MJ. We get it. Everyday 10 new threads about how Kobe will never be half as good as MJ's balls. Sigh.

Did you watch the Finals last year? Ray Allen did a great job on Kobe.

[catch24]

They also tried 6'8" super athletic Dumas on him and he got burned. What you don't get is that Jordan was a matchup nightmare in general, and was a much smarter ballplayer than Kobe besides. LOL @ you suggesting that James freaking Posey is gonna stay in front of '89-'93 Jordan. :oldlol:

KJ was 6'1"-6'2", btw. And we all know that Jordan never posted up guys his size or bigger, right? :oldlol:

Wasn't Jordan actually 6'4? Anyway I agree though, MJ was a handful and caused match up problems for everyone. Those videos that dondada posted are MJ blowing by Posey, KG, etc, at 39/40 years old! lol! MJ is the GOAT.

I understand where fatal9 is coming from, I know they had instances where they went into different types of zones, but for the majority weren't the Celtics running man to man with help D? lol..

[Bush4Ever]

Nevermind.

[catch24]

I agree with your general perspective, but Dumars was not even close to that tall.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dumarjo01.html

He's talking about Richard Dumas - 6'7, not Joe D.

[Fatal9]

Yeah, they only had a second team defensive member that season and also a 6'8" super athletic SF if they wanted to put him on MJ (they tried and he got roasted). You can't look at the results and conclude that these guys weren't good defenders (you're essentially calling them "nobodies"), or else Mutombo sucks too because Shaq destroyed him in 2001.
Please tell, which two defenders guarded MJ the most in the series? Would Phoenix have been better off playing zone so a) they wouldn't have to put KJ on him to stop him and b) would have a better chance at stopping him with Majerle guarding him. You and I both know the answer to this question, I've watched this series several times (like, actually watched it, not the BS youtube highlight spin) and this was the single most glaring thing in it for me.


Nice obfuscation and bullsh&t. :oldlol: How does this address the post of mine you quoted? Oh yeah, it doesn't. At all. Fact: any defensive team from the last 5 seasons would NOT have the same exact DRtg and ppg/FG% allowed is they were transported back into the 80's. Fact.

And yeah, I'm sure Pierce and Posey could stay in front of MJ. :oldlol: You make the same mistake all Kobe nvthuggers do (and that's what you are) -- you think that if Kobe couldn't or didn't do something, then no one could. Rubbish. Kobe != Jordan. Even Lebron isn't as quick as Jordan. Further, Jordan was a much smarter offensive player than either of them, and he didn't have Lebron's offensive deficiencies (from last season). He also did a ton more work off the ball, instead of dribbling around at the top of the key for 12 seconds like a retard like Kobe repeatedly did. :rolleyes:

They'd limit him as well as anyone could, of course, but lol @ you if you're expecting '89-'93 Jordan to be held to sub 26 ppg on sub-41% shooting like Kobe and Lebron were. Seriously, LOL @ you. Here, let me show you: :oldlol:
:oldlol: at you passing some real BS as facts. If you have a team with poor individual defenders, you are better off playing zone than man to man, especially if you matchup poorly with the star player. This helps most teams that don't have spectacular defenders (like 90% of the league), be able to stop a star player. This therefore on average would help almost every team in the league defensively. For example, from '95-'98, there wasn't a SINGLE season the league average was below 45%. From '00-'06 there wasn't a single season where the league average was above 45%. In three years, the offense of the league just got worse right? :rolleyes:

I never said Pierce or Posey could stay in front of MJ. The point I made is, in a man to man type of situation, Pierce and Posey would be in big trouble against MJ because they won't be able to do anything to stop MJ from getting to the basket and either finishing or drawing a foul. Help would have to come very quickly to stop MJ from scoring. The Celtics zone however, shifted from the very first dribble by Kobe or Lebron. Realistically, in a man to man situation, Pierce or Posey would not be able to stay in front of Kobe or Lebron either, but they didn't need to because they could shift them towards the defender on either side of them and therefore prevent them from getting any further. You don't need to be quick to be able to do this. I don't know if Jordan would play well or poorly under these conditions but I know he would have a harder time scoring than on anyone he every faced in the 90s. And I also know Celtics and Pistons were hell of a lot harder defensively than anyone Jordan ever faced in the finals.

[Bush4Ever]

He's talking about Richard Dumas - 6'7, not Joe D.

Yes.....everyone ignore the crazy man (me).

[andgar923]

Majerle>>>> Bowen, Marion, Bell, Battier etc.etc.
Ainge>>>>> Hinrich, Harpring, Snow, etc.etc.

Dumas is a tall and long great athlete that was getting burnt by MJ so badly, they just decided to put KJ on him.

The thing you guys fail to understand is, MJ could sense the double and triple teams come so he reacted before they got there. Should he be penalized for that?

They tried KJ to keep him from penetrating, and they would double him immediately. KJ on MJ would also force MJ further out in the perimeter and force him to shoot longer jumpers.

None of that didn't work.

He was always a step ahead of the doubles, and he was hitting his jumper from the outside.

They tried to tire him out on offense, by running him through a trillion screens. They would be very physical on him on both ends, that didn't slow him down.

I think some people are implying that the "zone" would work. The zone would be exploited by MJ specially under today's rules.

Why?

Because MJ does NOT settle for the jumper. Once he beats the first defender the lane is wide open.

If you watch the series, there was 3 defenders waiting for MJ at all times. Just how the Celtics used to play Kobe. But they were more physical and bigger than the Celtics.

Guess what happened?

MJ STILL SCORED

MJ would laugh at the zone, and unlike Wade, Bron, Kobe or any of today's players, MJ is a master at moving without the ball. He'll find creases in the zone and exploit them to the point that they'll have to play man to man.

The entire premise of the zone in the NBA has been already dealt with and exposed as a "pseudo" zone anyway, but more importantly as a JOKE.

There's also an assumption that those defenders were horrible slow white boys. But they were better than most of today's top defenders. And Majerle was the Suns go to defender over Marion, even an older Majerle was considered a top defender in TODAY'S era. In his physical prime he was a better athlete than Bowen, Artest or Battier ever were. And he was allowed to be physical. All the stuff that people complain about Bowen was legal back then.

MJ was just too fast for ANYBODY, even point guards. He was beating KJ off the dribble consistently as well.

There is NO defender today or ever that would stay in front of him. And if you put him against today's rules and defense, his numbers jump even more.

The excuses people make are hilarious. Because Kobe struggles, doesn't mean that MJ is Kobe.

MJ is MJ and kObe is Kobe. They think differently, and they're different athletes altogether. MJ at the age of 40 was able to do things that Kobe NEVER could.

[andgar923]

Please tell, which two defenders guarded MJ the most in the series? Would Phoenix have been better off playing zone so a) they wouldn't have to put KJ on him to stop him and b) would have a better chance at stopping him with Majerle guarding him. You and I both know the answer to this question, I've watched this series several times (like, actually watched it, not the BS youtube highlight spin) and this was the single most glaring thing in it for me.

:oldlol: at you passing some real BS as facts. If you have a team with poor individual defenders, you are better off playing zone than man to man, especially if you matchup poorly with the star player. This helps most teams that don't have spectacular defenders (like 90% of the league), be able to stop a star player. This therefore on average would help almost every team in the league defensively. For example, from '95-'98, there wasn't a SINGLE season the league average was below 45%. From '00-'06 there wasn't a single season where the league average was above 45%. In three years, the offense of the league just got worse right? :rolleyes:

I never said Pierce or Posey could stay in front of MJ. The point I made is, in a man to man type of situation, Pierce and Posey would be in big trouble against MJ because they won't be able to do anything to stop MJ from getting to the basket and either finishing or drawing a foul. Help would have to come very quickly to stop MJ from scoring. The Celtics zone however, shifted from the very first dribble by Kobe or Lebron. Realistically, in a man to man situation, Pierce or Posey would not be able to stay in front of Kobe or Lebron either, but they didn't need to because they could shift them towards the defender on either side of them and therefore prevent them from getting any further. You don't need to be quick to be able to do this. I don't know if Jordan would play well or poorly under these conditions but I know he would have a harder time scoring than on anyone he every faced in the 90s. And I also know Celtics and Pistons were hell of a lot harder defensively than anyone Jordan ever faced in the finals.

The Celtics did NOT play zone.

And even if MJ faced the so called "zone" defense, his numbers would jump.

Why?

Because anybody with half a brain can figure out the zone.

Once you beat the first defender its a wide open court.

You wanna know why coaches rarely use the zone?

BECAUSE ITS EASY TO BEAT!!!!!

They only use it on a few possessions to give the offense a different look. Its NOT played every play every game.

LOL @ people believing KPAH's propaganda.

MJ saw REAL zone defense in college for 3 years and during international play.

And

REAL zone tactics were ALWAYS used in the NBA.

If you go back and actually watch some old games, you can see how they use it from time to time.

[catch24]

The Celtics did NOT play zone.

And even if MJ faced the so called "zone" defense, his numbers would jump.

Why?

Because anybody with half a brain can figure out the zone.

Once you beat the first defender its a wide open court.

You wanna know why coaches rarely use the zone?

BECAUSE ITS EASY TO BEAT!!!!!

They only use it on a few possessions to give the offense a different look. Its NOT played every play every game.

LOL @ people believing KPAH's propaganda.

MJ saw REAL zone defense in college for 3 years and during international play.

And

REAL zone tactics were ALWAYS used in the NBA.

If you go back and actually watch some old games, you can see how they use it from time to time.

pretty much summed things up there champ..

[OldSchoolBBall]

Majerle>>>> Bowen, Marion, Bell, Battier etc.etc.
Ainge>>>>> Hinrich, Harpring, Snow, etc.etc.

Dumas is a tall and long great athlete that was getting burnt by MJ so badly, they just decided to put KJ on him.

The thing you guys fail to understand is, MJ could sense the double and triple teams come so he reacted before they got there. Should he be penalized for that?

They tried KJ to keep him from penetrating, and they would double him immediately. KJ on MJ would also force MJ further out in the perimeter and force him to shoot longer jumpers.

None of that didn't work.

He was always a step ahead of the doubles, and he was hitting his jumper from the outside.

They tried to tire him out on offense, by running him through a trillion screens. They would be very physical on him on both ends, that didn't slow him down.

I think some people are implying that the "zone" would work. The zone would be exploited by MJ specially under today's rules.

Why?

Because MJ does NOT settle for the jumper. Once he beats the first defender the lane is wide open.

If you watch the series, there was 3 defenders waiting for MJ at all times. Just how the Celtics used to play Kobe. But they were more physical and bigger than the Celtics.

Guess what happened?

MJ STILL SCORED

MJ would laugh at the zone, and unlike Wade, Bron, Kobe or any of today's players, MJ is a master at moving without the ball. He'll find creases in the zone and exploit them to the point that they'll have to play man to man.

The entire premise of the zone in the NBA has been already dealt with and exposed as a "pseudo" zone anyway, but more importantly as a JOKE.

There's also an assumption that those defenders were horrible slow white boys. But they were better than most of today's top defenders. And Majerle was the Suns go to defender over Marion, even an older Majerle was considered a top defender in TODAY'S era. In his physical prime he was a better athlete than Bowen, Artest or Battier ever were. And he was allowed to be physical. All the stuff that people complain about Bowen was legal back then.

MJ was just too fast for ANYBODY, even point guards. He was beating KJ off the dribble consistently as well.

There is NO defender today or ever that would stay in front of him. And if you put him against today's rules and defense, his numbers jump even more.

The excuses people make are hilarious. Because Kobe struggles, doesn't mean that MJ is Kobe.

MJ is MJ and kObe is Kobe. They think differently, and they're different athletes altogether. MJ at the age of 40 was able to do things that Kobe NEVER could.

Thank you. Fatal9 is a clown, acting like since Kobe struggled, everyone would. What a joke. His implicit assumption -- like that of all Kobe groupies -- is that no one is better (or at least not more than marginally better) than Kobe. That's a joke.

You have to LOL @ a guy who thinks that '89-'93 Jordan would be held to sub-26 ppg on sub-41% shooting like Kobe was. Yeah, okay. :oldlol: Like I said, they'd limit him as well as any team could, but he'd still perform at a significantly higher level than Kobe. Not 34 ppg/51% FG, but not 25 ppg/40% FG, either.

[andgar923]

Please tell, which two defenders guarded MJ the most in the series? Would Phoenix have been better off playing zone so a) they wouldn't have to put KJ on him to stop him and b) would have a better chance at stopping him with Majerle guarding him. You and I both know the answer to this question, I've watched this series several times (like, actually watched it, not the BS youtube highlight spin) and this was the single most glaring thing in it for me.

:oldlol: at you passing some real BS as facts. If you have a team with poor individual defenders, you are better off playing zone than man to man, especially if you matchup poorly with the star player. This helps most teams that don't have spectacular defenders (like 90% of the league), be able to stop a star player. This therefore on average would help almost every team in the league defensively. For example, from '95-'98, there wasn't a SINGLE season the league average was below 45%. From '00-'06 there wasn't a single season where the league average was above 45%. In three years, the offense of the league just got worse right? :rolleyes:

I never said Pierce or Posey could stay in front of MJ. The point I made is, in a man to man type of situation, Pierce and Posey would be in big trouble against MJ because they won't be able to do anything to stop MJ from getting to the basket and either finishing or drawing a foul. Help would have to come very quickly to stop MJ from scoring. The Celtics zone however, shifted from the very first dribble by Kobe or Lebron. Realistically, in a man to man situation, Pierce or Posey would not be able to stay in front of Kobe or Lebron either, but they didn't need to because they could shift them towards the defender on either side of them and therefore prevent them from getting any further. You don't need to be quick to be able to do this. I don't know if Jordan would play well or poorly under these conditions but I know he would have a harder time scoring than on anyone he every faced in the 90s. And I also know Celtics and Pistons were hell of a lot harder defensively than anyone Jordan ever faced in the finals.

You do know MJ destroyed REAL zone defense while getting doubled and triple teamed in college right?

YOu do know that what you described is basically a watered down version of the "Jordan Rules" right?

Rules that were later adopted and improved by other teams right?

With a clogged lane and tougher physical defenders right?

You also do know that MJ is primarily a "slasher" right?

Unlike Kobe that likes to chuck up shots and give defenders the ability to react and settle, MJ's game will destroy the zone.

And unlike 99% of today's stars, he knows how to run the give and go.

How many times a game does Bron, Wade or Kobe run the give and go? I always see them pass the ball and stand there (at least 8 outta 10 times they do so).

Do you see how effective Wade is at running the high screen?

Well, MJ was easily better at it.


So if he's great without the ball
Smarter than today's players
Can run the give and go
High screen or pick and roll
Is constantly attacking
Doesn't settle for the jumper
Faced real zones in college


What makes anybody think that today's pseudo zone will do anything to stop him?

Its actually a joke to be honest.

[andgar923]

Thank you. Fatal9 is a clown, acting like since Kobe struggled, everyone would. What a joke. His implicit assumption -- like that of all Kobe groupies -- is that no one is better (or at least not more than marginally better) than Kobe. That's a joke.

You have to LOL @ a guy who thinks that '89-'93 Jordan would be held to sub-26 ppg on sub-41% shooting like Kobe was. Yeah, okay. :oldlol: Like I said, they'd limit him as well as any team could, but he'd still perform at a significantly higher level than Kobe. Not 34 ppg/51% FG, but not 25 ppg/40% FG, either.

To me its simple.

It comes down to their approach to the game and how they "read and react."

Lets take JR Smith and Kobe:

JR Smith is a streaky scorer and great athlete

But what makes Kobe a more consistent player?

The way he reads and reacts.

If you put them in the exact same scenario, they will not react the same way.

If both are faced under the exact same conditions:

One on one vs Posey inside the 3pt line, with a defender waiting on the right side and the double coming from the baseline.

Jr might try to take a deep jumper or penetrate go to the right side, where he'd be met by the defender.

Kobe might wait for the double to come, use the 2nd defender as a shield and pull up for an easier shot.

(of course this is just theoretical)

And that's what THEY DON'T GET.

MJ's reaction and thought process is completely different than Kobe's. He will not dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble and take a fadeaway.

And

He's also the superior athlete that can do things Kobe CAN'T DO.

Scenarios in which Kobe would go into the lane defenders collapse and he may or may not make the shot vs the collapsing triple team.

MJ would finish 8 outta 10 times

Kobe? maybe 5 outta 10

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at andgar thinking I am responding to that. You are a dumber, less articulate and more irrational version of Oldschoobball. You are channeling points made by your idol bruceblitz who apparently quit his job just so he could scrap together fragmented footage of Jordan, Lebron and Kobe.

I will say this though. A well executing offense can burn a zone pretty quickly and quite effectively but this is only if your shooters are hitting shots. The Laker shooters (Fisher, Vujacic, Radmonovic and Walton) shot 38.6%. Is it really Kobe or Pau's fault when Vujacic and Fisher shoot 1-10 or 2-10?


:oldlol: at OSB doing what he best...twisting arguments to fit his agenda. I even said, I don't know how well or poorly MJ would play against the Celtics, because I don't make baseless speculations like him. The only point I made was that it would be harder for him to score against the Celtics than at any other time during his championship runs. LOL at him thinking I am even a Kobe fan. This man, who no reasonable person would consider unbiased, actually might be arguing that MJ faced stiffer competition in the finals than Kobe did, which is a complete joke :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

:oldlol: at OSB doing what he best...twisting arguments to fit his agenda. I even said, I don't know how well or poorly MJ would play against the Celtics, because I don't make baseless speculations like him. The only point I made was that it would be harder for him to score against the Celtics than at any other time during his championship runs. LOL at him thinking I am even a Kobe fan. This man, who no reasonable person would consider unbiased, actually might be arguing that MJ faced stiffer competition in the finals than Kobe did, which is a complete joke :oldlol:

He faced better teams in the Finals, yes. And yeah, it's pretty apparent that you're a Kobe fan from your posts in every thread mentioning Jordan and Kobe. You constantly try to posit equivalency between the two when there is none.

I've seen Kobe fans (like you) actually try to tout the defense of the '01 Sixers as a reason why Kobe averaged like 26 ppg/41% shooting that series, when Carter put up 31/47% shooting as the sole focus of the defense that same postseason. Yup, can't be that Kobe was overrated then - must be the defense! Never mind the fact that Kobe has a history of shooting like crap against non-elite defenses as well, Finals or otherwise.

Know how I know you're a Kobe fan? Because you won't answer the following two questions:

1) Would Jordan be unequivocally considered a better player than Kobe if he played in today's league at age 25-30?

2) If Jordan is a 100% as a player, what is Kobe?


I'll be waiting for your answers, but I know they won't be soon in coming. Instead, you'll hem and haw and obfuscate like you usually do. Because that's all Kobe fans are good at.

[andgar923]

:oldlol: at andgar thinking I am responding to that. You are a dumber, less articulate and more irrational version of Oldschoobball. You are channeling points made by your idol bruceblitz who apparently quit his job just so he could scrap together fragmented footage of Jordan, Lebron and Kobe.

I will say this though. A well executing offense can burn a zone pretty quickly and quite effectively but this is only if your shooters are hitting shots. The Laker shooters (Fisher, Vujacic, Radmonovic and Walton) shot 38.6%. Is it really Kobe or Pau's fault when Vujacic and Fisher shoot 1-10 or 2-10?


:oldlol: at OSB doing what he best...twisting arguments to fit his agenda. I even said, I don't know how well or poorly MJ would play against the Celtics, because I don't make baseless speculations like him. The only point I made was that it would be harder for him to score against the Celtics than at any other time during his championship runs. LOL at him thinking I am even a Kobe fan. This man, who no reasonable person would consider unbiased, actually might be arguing that MJ faced stiffer competition in the finals than Kobe did, which is a complete joke :oldlol:

Please explain why my posts were a joke.

One doesn't have to make speculations on how MJ would play against the zone because he actually DID play against it.

The REAL zone at that.

[Fatal9]

Know how I know you're a Kobe fan? Because you won't answer the following two questions:

1) Would Jordan be unequivocally considered a better player than Kobe if he played in today's league at age 25-30?

2) If Jordan is a 100% as a player, what is Kobe?

1. I don't even think Kobe is the best player right now :confusedshrug: . Wade imo is. So to answer your question Jordan at age 25-30 would be decidedly better than Kobe at every aspect of the game and better than anyone in the league at any point in its history.

2. 80%. (Anyone saying over 50% is a nuthvgger I am guessing? :oldlol:)

I don't know where in your lunatic jordan obssessed mind you are trying to say I claim a) Jordan would shoot 25 ppg on 41% against the Celtics and b) Kobe > or = to Jordan when I don't even think it is close. I am defending both Kobe (who apparently I love) and Lebron (of who I am apparently a hater) and the league in general. No agendas here. YOU on the other hand have taken responsibility as the Jordan PR man on this board and other than maybe Pleezebelieve, your agenda is the most transparent on this board. Your whole trick in this thread (and past threads) is to dismiss someone as a Kobe ******ger or a Jordan hater if they consider Jordan to be human.

You have this idea when I say defending Jordan in the playoffs on a game by game basis would be much easier (instead of him torching mismatches) with the zone, that I am actually saying Jordan would be shut down nowadays. This to me is frankly some weird sort of insecure paranoia. Anyways, my point stands. #1 Jordan never faced anyone remotely close to Celtics or Pistons in the finals. #2 Jordan would find it more difficult to score under the Celtics zone defense because they match up with SGs and SFs so well. You certainly wouldn't see the insane numbers he put up against the Lakers, Blazers and Suns.

[andgar923]

1. I don't even think Kobe is the best player right now :confusedshrug: . Wade imo is. So to answer your question Jordan at age 25-30 would be decidedly better than Kobe at every aspect of the game and better than anyone in the league at any point in its history.

2. 80%. (Anyone saying over 50% is a nuthvgger I am guessing? :oldlol:)

I don't know where in your lunatic jordan obssessed mind you are trying to say I claim a) Jordan would shoot 25 ppg on 41% against the Celtics and b) Kobe > or = to Jordan when I don't even think it is close. I am defending both Kobe (who apparently I love) and Lebron (of who I am apparently a hater) and the league in general. No agendas here. YOU on the other hand have taken responsibility as the Jordan PR man on this board and other than maybe Pleezebelieve, your agenda is the most transparent on this board. Your whole trick in this thread (and past threads) is to dismiss someone as a Kobe ******ger or a Jordan hater if they consider Jordan to be human.

You have this idea when I say defending Jordan in the playoffs on a game by game basis would be much easier (instead of him torching mismatches) with the zone, that I am actually saying Jordan would be shut down nowadays. This to me is frankly some weird sort of insecure paranoia. Anyways, my point stands. #1 Jordan never faced anyone remotely close to Celtics or Pistons in the finals. #2 Jordan would find it more difficult to score under the Celtics zone defense because they match up with SGs and SFs so well. You certainly wouldn't see the insane numbers he put up against the Lakers, Blazers and Suns.

Again... MJ played against the REAL zone.
MJ beat the Celtics defenders past his prime.
MJ faced tougher defense than that of the Pistons and Celts. In the Finals and during his playoff runs.

The reason today's players struggle is because they settle for jumpers for the most part. But just watch them when they decide to attack aggressively. They get to the cup with ease for the most part. And if they can't beat their man, all it takes is a give and go or a high screen (a la Wade).

And... MJ's mid range>>>>>>>>>>

[DonDadda59]

You really are an idiot to bring up videos of the Wolves, Pre-KG Celtics and Rockets when all these guys were playing with different teams and weren't even close to exhibiting the type of defense they played against Lebron and Kobe. The argument is Detroit and Boston were better than any team Jordan faced in the finals (this is undeniable) and in the playoffs (this is a bit more arguable). You're making a very weak case by posting these videos that have nothing to do with anything (somehow trying to link the Wolves, 2001 Celtics and 2001 Rockets defense to the '04 Pistons and the '08 Celtics).

Your claim was that the 6'8" wing defenders on the Celtics, the same ones that shut Kobe down in 1 on 1 situations would for some reason bother Jordan in his prime. But I showed you irrefutable evidence of Jordan ****ting on their foreheads when he was old, injured, and many years past his prime. But I know what you're thinking, or have been taught to think by misguided homers who know nothing about the game- 'but, but, but... he never faced the Detroit and Celtics zone'. And I counter:


They've been so open that Saunders waited only one day before running the proud Pistons through some zone concepts. He sees too much length, quickness and athleticism on Detroit's front line to resist the idea, even though he knows that the Pistons of Brown vintage were adamant that real men don't zone.

"Zone might be a four-letter word around here," Saunders said, "but they've been pretty receptive to it. I think it's one of those things that, if we play it and we're successful with it, they'll wrap their arms around it a little bit more."

In Minnesota, Saunders relied on zone defenses to cover up holes in a vulnerable defense. In Detroit, Saunders sees it as a weapon that can lead to fast-break opportunities. Or a handy changeup to confuse the opposition. Or, at the very least, a valuable practice tool to help the Pistons' offense when it has to face a zone in real life.

-'Larry's Out, Flip's In, And the Pistons Feel Fine'; ESPN


So it was the non-existent Pistons 'zone' in '04 that forced Kobe to take ill-conceived shots and shoot 38% despite the fact he had Shaq, Karl Malone, and Gary Payton as teammates? And Minnesota was running the zone under Flip Saunders with KG and Chauncey Billups on the squad when 38 year old hobbled MJ made defensive first teamer, DPOY, the heart of the Boston 'zone' his *****? And on that note:


Thibodeau's defensive scheme is a bug-free marriage of hardware and software. The programming is straight out of the Van Gundy manual: Keep the ball out of the paint, shrink the floor by overloading defenders to one side and try to contest every shot. Rarely does Thibodeau tweak the game plan by calling a variety of sets from the sideline. The Celtics are committed to their basic man-to-man principles, and when a certain approach isn't working, the staff's first adjustment is to demand greater effort.

-Sports Illustrated

So, in summation:

http://mooregroup.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/ether.jpg

[Da_Realist]

Your claim was that the 6'8" wing defenders on the Celtics, the same ones that shut Kobe down in 1 on 1 situations would for some reason bother Jordan in his prime. But I showed you irrefutable evidence of Jordan ****ting on their foreheads when he was old, injured, and many years past his prime. But I know what you're thinking, or have been taught to think by misguided homers who know nothing about the game- 'but, but, but... he never faced the Detroit and Celtics zone'. And I counter:


So it was the non-existent Pistons 'zone' in '04 that forced Kobe to take ill-conceived shots and shoot 38% despite the fact he had Shaq, Karl Malone, and Gary Payton as teammates? And Minnesota was running the zone under Flip Saunders with KG and Chauncey Billups on the squad when 38 year old hobbled MJ made defensive first teamer, DPOY, the heart of the Boston 'zone' his *****? And on that note:



So, in summation:

http://mooregroup.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/ether.jpg

^^ that sh!t that make your soul burn slow...

[OldSchoolBBall]

1. I don't even think Kobe is the best player right now :confusedshrug: . Wade imo is. So to answer your question Jordan at age 25-30 would be decidedly better than Kobe at every aspect of the game and better than anyone in the league at any point in its history.

Wow, even I don't agree with all that. You're actually a Jordan groupie. :oldlol: Kobe would still have the decided edge in long range shooting (3's and beyond). And I don't think Jordan at his peak was significantly better than peak Wilt or Kareem. I do give him the edge, though, just because of the way guards can control a game, plus he produced as well as they did.


2. 80%. (Anyone saying over 50% is a nuthvgger I am guessing? :oldlol:)

He's about 85% of Jordan on the average day in terms of impact imo.

[Admiral]

Yes, I read the post, I thought given the OP the point of this thread was for everyone to try and make the dumbest post possible.

(I realize this is a bit late to this party but...)

:roll: well played sir :cheers:

[crisoner]

Easy.....



Bobby Sura

http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/006/435/06b.jpg

[juju151111]

Your claim was that the 6'8" wing defenders on the Celtics, the same ones that shut Kobe down in 1 on 1 situations would for some reason bother Jordan in his prime. But I showed you irrefutable evidence of Jordan ****ting on their foreheads when he was old, injured, and many years past his prime. But I know what you're thinking, or have been taught to think by misguided homers who know nothing about the game- 'but, but, but... he never faced the Detroit and Celtics zone'. And I counter:


So it was the non-existent Pistons 'zone' in '04 that forced Kobe to take ill-conceived shots and shoot 38% despite the fact he had Shaq, Karl Malone, and Gary Payton as teammates? And Minnesota was running the zone under Flip Saunders with KG and Chauncey Billups on the squad when 38 year old hobbled MJ made defensive first teamer, DPOY, the heart of the Boston 'zone' his *****? And on that note:



So, in summation:

http://mooregroup.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/ether.jpg
Owned Damn You can't argue with Facts and coaches quotes Fatal. 38 year old MJ destroying zones lol.

[branslowski]

Owned Damn You can't argue with Facts and coaches quotes Fatal. 38 year old MJ destroying zones lol.

So are we saying MJ at 38 was better than a 22-23 yr old Kobe?..

[takeittothehoop]

I doubt anyway will but Dwyane Wade is who I would put my money on.

[catch24]

I think he's just saying he played well vs the Twolves who ran some zone in '03 :)

[andgar923]

So are we saying MJ at 38 was better than a 22-23 yr old Kobe?..

No but he was "smarter."

[Sir Charles]

So are we saying MJ at 38 was better than a 22-23 yr old Kobe?..

A 38-39 Jordan was Better than a 18-21 Kobe by miles

a 22-23 year old Kobe...debatable..but i have no problem with saying that a 38-39 year old Jordan playing with SHAQ (Most Dominant Player and Best Offensive Center Ever) would have never lost any play-off series..:confusedshrug:

[branslowski]

A 38-39 Jordan was Better than a 18-21 Kobe by miles

a 22-23 year old Kobe...debatable..but i have no problem with saying that a 38-39 year old Jordan playing with SHAQ (Most Dominant Player and Best Offensive Center Ever) would have never lost any play-off series..:confusedshrug:

Ofcource....:rolleyes:

[Diesel J]

I'll say..

Wade will get him in blks

Lebron will get hem in rebs and ast

...Noone will catch him in points

[darius15]

Lebron is the most likely to do it. It doesn't mean he will though.

[Diesel J]

what ever happened to Sir Charles?

[plowking]

Statistically, which of these guys will end their playoff careers with numbers close to (or surpassing) Jordan's playoff numbers?

The raw numbers...

Jordan 179 games, 41.8 mins, 33.4 pts, 6.4 rebs, 5.7 asts, 2.10 stls, .883 blks, 48.7 fg%

Bryant 157 games, 39.2 mins, 24.4 pts, 5.0 rebs, 4.7 asts, 1.41 stls, .662 blks, 44.6 fg%

James 50 games, 44.4 mins, 27.9 pts, 8.3 rebs, 7.3 asts, 1.62 stls, .780 blks, 43.9 fg%

Wade 55 games, 40.8 mins, 25.3 pts, 5.3 rebs, 6.0 asts, 1.72 stls, .949 blks, 47.6 fg%

For Kobe to match Jordan's playoff stats, he would need to average 98.4 pts, 13.2 asts, 16.4 rebs, 7.0 stls and 2.5 blks per game over the next 22 playoff games.

For Lebron to match, he would need to average 35.6 pts, 5.10 asts, 5.73 rebs, 2.29 stls and 0.92 blks per game over the next 129 playoff games.

For Dwyane to match, he would need to average 37.7 pts, 5.55 asts, 6.97 rebs, 2.28 stls, and 0.85 blks per game over the next 121 playoff games.

Realistically, MJ's ppg, fg% and spg are secure. Lebron's gonna pass his rebs and asts averages, but will have to work hard for a long time to better his blks per game. As great as he's played in this year's first round, he's "only" averaged .75 bpg. I'm just sayin'...

Wade may average more apg with a more realistic chance at beating MJ's blks per game. However, with his 6'4" frame I think averaging .85 blks per game over 121 games is a long shot.

Obviously, Kobe doesn't have a shot at anything. The averages really don't convey how far apart the production levels really are. Jordan averaged 5.7 asts per game, Kobe 4.7. That seems close, until you realize that Kobe needs to average 13.2 asts just to match Jordan's output in the same number of games.

This honestly doesn't look all that unlikely now. :oldlol:

[juju151111]

This honestly doesn't look all that unlikely now. :oldlol:
I agree. LJ can match a few of his stats.

[Courtside View]

This honestly doesn't look all that unlikely now. :oldlol:

35 ppg for 129 games on that percentage is tough. But if Bron can stay healthy, it's a possibility.

[juju151111]

35 ppg for 129 games on that percentage is tough. But if Bron can stay healthy, it's a possibility.
He has been doing it for 2 years now and he isn't really injury prone.

[Roundball_Rock]

The raw numbers...

Jordan 179 games, 41.8 mins, 33.4 pts, 6.4 rebs, 5.7 asts, 2.10 stls, .883 blks, 48.7 fg%

Bryant 157 games, 39.2 mins, 24.4 pts, 5.0 rebs, 4.7 asts, 1.41 stls, .662 blks, 44.6 fg%

James 50 games, 44.4 mins, 27.9 pts, 8.3 rebs, 7.3 asts, 1.62 stls, .780 blks, 43.9 fg%

Wade 55 games, 40.8 mins, 25.3 pts, 5.3 rebs, 6.0 asts, 1.72 stls, .949 blks, 47.6 fg%

Where are the raw numbers for FGA per game? That is why Lebron will never match 33 ppg for a playoff career. He just doesn't shoot 25-28 times every night. He is a 20 FGA per game guy. Good. His pass-first attitude is why he gets the maximum out of even weak teams.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Where are the raw numbers for FGA per game? That is why Lebron will never match 33 ppg for a playoff career. He just doesn't shoot 25-28 times every night. He is a 20 FGA per game guy. Good. His pass-first attitude is why he gets the maximum out of even weak teams.

Such a troll. :oldlol: He "gets the maximum" out of weak teams because he's playing in a weak league with a team that was designed around him (and it took 4-5 years for that to happen, just like it did for MJ), and he's playing in a star-driven league where stars get all the calls and are allowed to utterly dominate their team's offense to a degree never before seen.

This is to take nothing away from him, however. He's the best in the league, and a top 4-8 talent all-time (I'd have MJ/Wilt/KAJ definitely ahead as talents, and then you can argue Magic/Bird/Shaq as well). But this overrating of him has got to stop.

[Courtside View]

Such a troll. :oldlol: He "gets the maximum" out of weak teams because he's playing in a weak league with a team that was designed around him (and it took 4-5 years for that to happen, just like it did for MJ), and he's playing in a star-driven league where stars get all the calls and are allowed to utterly dominate their team's offense to a degree never before seen.

This is to take nothing away from him, however. He's the best in the league, and a top 4-8 talent all-time (I'd have MJ/Wilt/KAJ definitely ahead as talents, and then you can argue Magic/Bird/Shaq as well). But this overrating of him has got to stop.

The only people that do it are guys like Roundball, and you know very well it's not going to stop. Thing is, I like LeBron a lot and if anyone has a chance to surpass MJ, it's him. He's gotten damn close to mastering the game at an MJ level, but needs far more time for that to be solidified. A guy like Roundball doesn't even CARE though. LeBron just represents another opportunity to detract from Jordan.

[juju151111]

Where are the raw numbers for FGA per game? That is why Lebron will never match 33 ppg for a playoff career. He just doesn't shoot 25-28 times every night. He is a 20 FGA per game guy. Good. His pass-first attitude is why he gets the maximum out of even weak teams.
43%:ohwell:

[Roundball_Rock]

he's playing in a weak league with a team that was designed around him (and it took 4-5 years for that to happen, just like it did for M

4-5 years? Lebron had a winning season in his second year, not his fourth and Lebron came straight out of high school, not Dean Smith's UNC program. Imagine how quickly Lebron's success would have come had he went to college!

:oldlol: at this previously banned troll hyping today's league when convenient and dissing it when that is convenient. A guy who was #1 in all-NBA, #1 in all-D in the same season in the 90's would barely be a top 10 player today according to him yet when it comes to Lebron suddenly today's league is trash. :roll:

It could be argued today's league is stronger due to foreign talent, just as the league got stronger when it began to allow black players. It is a simple formula: the greater the talent pool being drawn upon the greater the talent of those selected. This argument is used against the 60's due to the lack of black players so why not apply the same reasoning to foreign players? The talent pool today is global; not national.

[OldSchoolBBall]

4-5 years? Lebron had a winning season in his second year, not his fourth

42-40. Wow. In possibly the worst Eastern Conference in history. Impressive.


A guy who was #1 in all-NBA, #1 in all-D in the same season in the 90's would barely be a top 10 player today according to him yet when it comes to Lebron suddenly today's league is trash. :roll:

The league is worse than it was in the 80's due to TEAM strength/quality. INDIVIDUAL player strength is great right now, hence Pippen would be in the 5-8 range somewhere. I've explained this in the past to you, but you're too dense to understand the distinctions there.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This honestly doesn't look all that unlikely now. :oldlol:

35.6 ppg over 129 playoff games is extremely unlikely, especially considering that 129 stretch would carry over past Lebron's prime.

[Alhazred]

Where are the raw numbers for FGA per game?

Jordan 25 FGA per game

Lebron James 21 FGA per game

Kobe Bryant 20 FGA per game

Dwayne Wade 19 FGA per game

[Fatal9]

Lebron's updated stats are 29/8/7 on 45.4%. Now that he has a jumpshot, I expect many runs like last season. I did not think Lebron was a great playoff performer but last year he proved me wrong, this year he can give us one of the greatest seasons ever.

:oldlol: at a Jordan fan saying anything about weak competition. This year's league is far deeper at the top than anything MJ saw in the 90s. Lebron did have a weak ass run in '07 though (comparable to MJ's eastern conference run in '91).

[AirJordan&Magic]

Such a troll. :oldlol: He "gets the maximum" out of weak teams because he's playing in a weak league with a team that was designed around him (and it took 4-5 years for that to happen, just like it did for MJ), and he's playing in a star-driven league where stars get all the calls and are allowed to utterly dominate their team's offense to a degree never before seen.

This is to take nothing away from him, however. He's the best in the league, and a top 4-8 talent all-time (I'd have MJ/Wilt/KAJ definitely ahead as talents, and then you can argue Magic/Bird/Shaq as well). But this overrating of him has got to stop.

:oldlol::oldlol: at LeBron being a top 4-8 talent all time..... He's the best in the league, but he is not a top 4-8 all time talent.

If we are talking talent, I would take Magic, Shaq, Bird, Kobe, Hakeem, and a prime Garnett EASILY over LeBron.

[Roundball_Rock]

42-40. Wow. In possibly the worst Eastern Conference in history. Impressive.

Very impressive for a guy was a year removed from high school. :bowdown:


The league is worse than it was in the 80's due to TEAM strength/quality. INDIVIDUAL player strength is great right now, hence Pippen would be in the 5-8 range somewhere. I've explained this in the past to you, but you're too dense to understand the distinctions there.

The distinction is your agenda. :cheers: Forgot the 80's. You cleverly bait and switch the 80's because Jordan played half of the 80's even though his legacy was forged in the 90's. Is the league now much weaker than it was in 1993 or 1996?


Jordan 25 FGA per game

Lebron James 21 FGA per game

Kobe Bryant 20 FGA per game

Dwayne Wade 19 FGA per game

Thanks. What would Lebron need to average to reach 25 FGA? This is why looking at scoring when comparing Lebron with Jordan is and giving it a ton of stock is flawed, although since that is the only statistical category Jordan is better in I understand why it is used. Lebron will never post the scoring numbers Jordan did because he isn't a guy who is going to take 25-28 shots night after night. Good. Lebron could shot 26 times a night and be efficient but he chooses not to because he understands his willingness to pass makes his teammates better and hence produces more wins.

[juju151111]

Lebron's updated stats are 29/8/7 on 45.4%. Now that he has a jumpshot, I expect many runs like last season. I did not think Lebron was a great playoff performer but last year he proved me wrong, this year he can give us one of the greatest seasons ever.

:oldlol: at a Jordan fan saying anything about weak competition. This year's league is far deeper at the top than anything MJ saw in the 90s. Lebron did have a weak ass run in '07 though (comparable to MJ's eastern conference run in '91).
Faketal and his buttbody round are comedians today.

[AirJordan&Magic]

It is highly unlikely that either of these guys will match Jordan in the playoffs......Imo, the only players that remotely matched Jordan's dominance in the postseason are Bill Russell, Shaquille O'neal, and prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar.
Jerry West and Hakeem Olajuwon are also good mentions as well.

I can see LeBron probably averaging more rebounds, but thats about it.

[juju151111]

Very impressive for a guy was a year removed from high school. :bowdown:



The distinction is your agenda. :cheers: Forgot the 80's. You cleverly bait and switch the 80's because Jordan played half of the 80's even though his legacy was forged in the 90's. Is the league now much weaker than it was in 1993 or 1996?



Thanks. What would Lebron need to average to reach 25 FGA? This is why looking at scoring when comparing Lebron with Jordan is and giving it a ton of stock is flawed, although since that is the only statistical category Jordan is better in I understand why it is used. Lebron will never post the scoring numbers Jordan did because he isn't a guy who is going to take 25-28 shots night after night. Good. Lebron could shot 26 times a night and be efficient but he chooses not to because he understands his willingness to pass makes his teammates better and hence produces more wins.
Round are you on Crack or you didn't see the 48% and stls,blks?? Seriously Round go to sleep. You were making sense when i came on ealrier in ISh. U must need sleep right now because in the last hour you have been spitting complete nonsense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Round are you on Crack or you didn't see the 48% and stls,blks?? Seriously Round go to sleep. You were making sense when i came on ealrier in ISh. U must need sleep right now because in the last hour you have been spitting complete nonsense.

I was thinking rebounding and assists. Good point about steals. I would expect MJ to have more but did he have more blocks too? :eek: FG % wise Lebron is unlikely to surpass Jordan but that is because he takes a lot of 3's. I can see him beating Jordan in points per shot, although to be fair it is harder to average a good PPS when you are shooting 28 times a game versus 20 times a game.

Statistically, though, it usually is all about points, rebounds, and assists hence people posting things like "26/9/7" and not even bothering to post the steal and blocks numbers. But yeah I am getting a bit tired. :lol

[Carbine]

He's as talented as anyone to ever play the game, it's his skills (shooting basically) that aren't elite, but shooting is something that can be worked on, like LeBron has shown. Talent is something you wake up with in the morning in my opinion.

With that that, he wakes up in the morning being 6'9 270 while being arguably the fastest man in the NBA with the ball, one of the strongest if not the strongest at his position, a sense of when passing lanes develop and a talent to get the ball on point, quickness, body control, hops and anything else you can think of.

He's a one of a kind player. You can't make an argument for someone being more talented than LeBron. He's as good as it gets from a talent perspective.

[Fatal9]

Man...have people been watching Lebron at all this season?

His midrange shot is near automatic. His 3 pt shooting is better than MJs ever was and maybe even better than Kobe's ever was. He doesn't dominate the ball as much as he did a year or two ago. Only in the fourth quarter of important close games will you see that type of ball dominance (which happens with all all-stars). This is the least Lebron has ever had the ball in his hands and he's averaging career high in assists (thanks to him finally getting talent around him). And we are really going to act like Lebron isn't going to just BEAST in a more open offensive era and also with a playmaker who can set up shots for him off the ball?

[juju151111]

I was thinking rebounding and assists. Good point about steals. I would expect MJ to have more but did he have more blocks too? :eek: FG % wise Lebron is unlikely to surpass Jordan but that is because he takes a lot of 3's. I can see him beating Jordan in points per shot, although to be fair it is harder to average a good PPS when you are shooting 28 times a game versus 20 times a game.

Statistically, though, it usually is all about points, rebounds, and assists hence people posting things like "26/9/7" and not even bothering to post the steal and blocks numbers. But yeah I am getting a bit tired. :lol
yea, but FG% is mentioned too. You normally own "MJ troll fans" i got to admit, but now your just hating in these two threads. Like i told u before. If it wasn't for your MJ hate u would be one of the best posters here along with Shaqattack. Your boy Faketal knows his stiff too, but he can't be saved. This guy literallypretended to be a MJ fan for a year and know is pretending to be a Pippen fan. This guy got on the Pip bandwagon when u joined. He never use to mention all that much. Just goes to show u he will do anything to downplay Mj.

[juju151111]

Man...have people been watching Lebron at all this season?

His midrange shot is near automatic. His 3 pt shooting is better than MJs ever was and maybe even better than Kobe's ever was. He doesn't dominate the ball as much as he did a year or two ago. Only in the fourth quarter of important close games will you see that type of ball dominance (which happens with all all-stars). This is the least Lebron has ever had the ball in his hands and he's averaging career high in assists (thanks to him finally getting talent around him). And we are really going to act like Lebron isn't going to just BEAST in a more open offensive era and also with a playmaker who can set up shots for him off the ball?
LOL Faketal with the hiccup. I thought old school players were weak and played no defense. Member that thread Faketal.

[ILLsmak]

For Lebron to match, he would need to average 35.6 pts, 5.10 asts, 5.73 rebs, 2.29 stls and 0.92 blks per game over the next 129 playoff games.



I was like wow that's surprisingly doable until you said 129 playoff games. haha. Even if he goes slightly under MJs ppg and has many more assists, though...

MJ won a lot, obviously, looking at the numbers it's amazing to me that Kobe is even close in games played. That's a lot of playoff games! And to have the stats he has, so what if they don't compare to MJs.

One can argue that those stats through a few less games than MJ are more impressive than the more similar stats of Wade and Bron through many less games.

-Smak

[Roundball_Rock]

You normally own "MJ troll fans" i got to admit, but now your just hating in these two threads. Like i told u before. If it wasn't for your MJ hate u would be one of the best posters here along with Shaqattack

But I thought I was a liar? I heard it from a guy I rarely post with and is on my ignore list.

Thanks for the partial compliment, though. As I once said to you, if I didn't like you I wouldn't post with you so often and I post with you more than any other MJ fan. I usually agree with you when you are talking about people other than MJ/Kareem/Pippen, especially on the Bulls. You are still a Bulls fan which is great. Some MJ fans here have not had a team to root for since 1998 and gets all their basketball enjoyment from rooting against the Lakers. :oldlol:

As to Fatal, he has a lot of Pippen games. I don't think anyone would go through the trouble of acquiring all those games, watching them, editing them for YouTube if they weren't a Pippen fan. Plus he is obviously intelligent. Why put all that time in elevating Pippen if the goal is to diminish Jordan? Whether Pippen is 17th, 27th, or 47th all-time has no bearing on Jordan's legacy. Yeah, if Pippen somehow got to 7th then it would like Magic on Kareem but: 1) that would have little impact as you can see by Kareem's ranking 2) there is zero chance that Pippen can ever get that high. If the stars align for him maybe he can get to where Havelick is, that is 15th-17th but most likely he will hover around the 20th-25th range where he is now.

[AirJordan&Magic]

He's as talented as anyone to ever play the game, it's his skills (shooting basically) that aren't elite, but shooting is something that can be worked on, like LeBron has shown. Talent is something you wake up with in the morning in my opinion.

With that that, he wakes up in the morning being 6'9 270 while being arguably the fastest man in the NBA with the ball, one of the strongest if not the strongest at his position, a sense of when passing lanes develop and a talent to get the ball on point, quickness, body control, hops and anything else you can think of.

He's a one of a kind player. You can't make an argument for someone being more talented than LeBron. He's as good as it gets from a talent perspective.

He is a one of a kind player, agreed. And everything you said in your second paragraph, I agree with as well.

But as for You can't make an argument for someone being more talented than LeBron. He's as good as it gets from a talent perspective.....I strongly disagree.

He is not as "good as it gets" Imo.
Players like Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and even Kobe Bryant & Kevin Garnett are as good as it gets. Players with no weaknesses at all to their individual games.

LeBron still has a fundamentally flawed game and I don't understand why people cannot see this.

He still is a mediocre AT BEST post up player, posseses an average AT BEST midrange game, horrible post defender for his size, and posseses mediocre to average footwork......His game is just too predictable to me.

[Knoe Itawl]

Man...have people been watching Lebron at all this season?

I've watched every Cavs game this year, save maybe 2 or 3. League Pass and DVR is good for that.


His midrange shot is near automatic. His 3 pt shooting is better than MJs ever was and maybe even better than Kobe's ever was.

It has improved by leaps and bounds but he still has a lot of streaky periods where he'll miss a lot and then hit several in a row. This is mitigated by his driving ability. He has improved a lot on it though, and I'd say he's better overall midrange than Kobe now in terms of consistancy.


He doesn't dominate the ball as much as he did a year or two ago. Only in the fourth quarter of important close games will you see that type of ball dominance (which happens with all all-stars). This is the least Lebron has ever had the ball in his hands and he's averaging career high in assists (thanks to him finally getting talent around him).

He has been a beast and it seems like he's actually getting better. No argument there.


And we are really going to act like Lebron isn't going to just BEAST in a more open offensive era and also with a playmaker who can set up shots for him off the ball?[/QUOTE]

I'm not even going to get into the whole thing about eras, given that the all encompassing zone theory has been refuted numerous times, and that a lot of people ignore the rules changes benefitting perimeter players and the fact that coaches and players who witnessed/played in both eras have stated it was harder for perimeter players to score then all things considered.

I'll just say that Jordan was better midrange, more creative around the basket, a better ft shooter, had a better "takeover" game (though Bron has certainly had many great spurts). Assuming that Bron's scoring efficiency would just magically improve is pretty presumptuous.

Bron is beasting. He's really starting to enter into a plane that's with the all time greats and also showing things that may be unprecedented. He still has a ways to before it's solidified that he's in a pantheon with MJ though. I personally think that all he needs is the time and he will get there but prematurely annointing him is jumping the gun.

[juju151111]

But I thought I was a liar? I heard it from a guy I rarely post with and is on my ignore list.

Thanks for the partial compliment, though. As I once said to you, if I didn't like you I wouldn't post with you so often and I post with you more than any other MJ fan. I usually agree with you when you are talking about people other than MJ/Kareem/Pippen, especially on the Bulls. You are still a Bulls fan which is great. Some MJ fans here have not had a team to root for since 1998 and gets all their basketball enjoyment from rooting against the Lakers. :oldlol:

As to Fatal, he has a lot of Pippen games. I don't think anyone would go through the trouble of acquiring all those games, watching them, editing them for YouTube if they weren't a Pippen fan. Plus he is obviously intelligent. Why put all that time in elevating Pippen if the goal is to diminish Jordan? Whether Pippen is 17th, 27th, or 47th all-time has no bearing on Jordan's legacy. Yeah, if Pippen somehow got to 7th then it would like Magic on Kareem but: 1) that would have little impact as you can see by Kareem's ranking 2) there is zero chance that Pippen can ever get that high. If the stars align for him maybe he can get to where Havelick is, that is 15th-17th but most likely he will hover around the 20th-25th range where he is now.
Bruce edited Kobe games. Bruce watches every single Lakers game. Doesn't mean he is a fan. If he was a Pippen fan like u said. He would of been one from day 1. I was a Mj and Pippen fan from day 1. ((More MJ, but I still loved Pippen I tried o find his games on youtube, but only SCOTTIEPIPPEN33 had a few) ISH messed my head up and made me attack Pippen on a few occasions through. lol

[Carbine]

I don't know what you've been seeing, when LeBron plays down low or on the pinch post he's VERY effective. He's not a great scorer down there with someone his size guarding him, but he's a great quarterback and that's great on it's own. If someone is smaller than him he demands doubles and if they don't come he scores - his post game is coming along nicely.

And LeBron doesn't showcase his mid-range because he doesn't have to. When he drives to the hoop, he has no obligation to pull up from 15 and shoot the ball - he can, but it's pointless when nobody is going to muscle him off the ball and he's either getting fouled, creating a shot for others or atemtping a layup.

I also think his footwork is very good, but again... that's not really a "talent," that's something you work on and get better at with hours of practice.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bruce edited Kobe games. Bruce watches every single Lakers game. Doesn't mean he is a fan. If he was a Pippen fan like u said. He would of been one from day 1. I was a Mj and Pippen fan from day 1. ((More MJ, but I still loved Pippen I tried o find his games on youtube, but only SCOTTIEPIPPEN33 had a few) ISH messed my head up and made me attack Pippen on a few occasions through. lol

Yeah but we know why Bruce does that and he does it to diminish Kobe. If Fatal's purpose in posting Pippen games is to diminish Jordan he is wasting his time because Pippen rising or falling on the all-time lists has no bearing on Jordan's legacy. I joined ISH relatively recently so I can't comment on what he used to say in the past, although I will point out people do change their views, but based on what I know I think he is a legit Pippen fan. Does he dislike Jordan? Yes, but that is a separate question. Even some Pippen fans here who like Jordan get tired of the "Jordan won all by himself" BS that people like OSB/Loki push. For example, 97 bulls. He stills like both Pippen and Jordan but he is annoyed at the "Pippen sucked, Jordan won all by himself" agenda that several MJ fans have here (not you, though).

I can understand how ISH could cause you to dislike Pippen at times but Jordan fans should be able to see the flip side and see how constantly hearing that your favorite player was a run-of-the-mill all-star, a choker, easily replaceable, never won without Jordan (ironic...), was a mere sidekick, was <<<<Paul Pierce, etc. and realizing 90% of this comes from Jordan fans would lead to a certain reaction towards Jordan.

[StarJordan]

how about this stat : 6 playoff mvps

[juju151111]

Yeah but we know why Bruce does that and he does it to diminish Kobe. If Fatal's purpose in posting Pippen games is to diminish Jordan he is wasting his time because Pippen rising or falling on the all-time lists has no bearing on Jordan's legacy. I joined ISH relatively recently so I can't comment on what he used to say in the past, although I will point out people do change their views, but based on what I know I think he is a legit Pippen fan. Does he dislike Jordan? Yes, but that is a separate question. Even some Pippen fans here who like Jordan get tired of the "Jordan won all by himself" BS that people like OSB/Loki push. For example, 97 bulls. He stills like both Pippen and Jordan but he is annoyed at the "Pippen sucked, Jordan won all by himself" agenda that several MJ fans have here (not you, though).

I can understand how ISH could cause you to dislike Pippen at times but Jordan fans should be able to see the flip side and see how constantly hearing that your favorite player was a run-of-the-mill all-star, a choker, easily replaceable, never won without Jordan (ironic...), was a mere sidekick, was <<<<Paul Pierce, etc. and realizing 90% of this comes from Jordan fans would lead to a certain reaction towards Jordan.
Poeple who say MJ won by himself are misinformed. Every thread where someone has said MJ won by himself I disagree or i don't comment. It goes bot ways i guest. I am going to bed because daylight saving is going to cut into my sleeping time.

[Da_Realist]

Updated (on Lebron) as of 3-14-10:

Lebron
60 games, 29.35 ppg, 8.27 rbg, 7.27 apg, 1.63 spg, 0.8 bpg, 3.72 turnovers on 45.4 fg%

Jordan
179 games, 33.45 ppg, 6.43 rpg, 5.71 apg, 2.10 spg, 0.88 bpg, 3.05 turnovers on 48.7 fg%

For Lebron to match Jordan's playoff statistics, he would need to average...

35.51 pts, 5.51 rebs, 4.92 asts, 2.37 stls, 0.92 blks and just 2.71 turnovers over the next 119 games.

If Lebron averaged 20 playoff games each season, it will take him about 6 playoff seasons to reach Jordan's total of 179. Assuming he doesn't miss the playoffs any year or have any significant injuries, it would be his 13th season in the league. And this is generous because he's only had ONE 20 game playoff season so far!

He will almost assuredly average more rebs and asts than Jordan did, but probably nothing else. Forget about points and fg%...and it looks like he'll definitely average more turnovers when it's all said and done. He has an outside shot at steals and blocks, however...to average 2.37 stls per game is a tough task. That's more than he's ever averaged in any one season (regular season or playoffs). To think he could do it over the next 119 playoff games is reaching.

Even blocks... he'll have to average 0.92 blocks over 119 games. That average is higher than he averaged in last season's playoffs -- his best playoff season to date. He "only" averaged 0.86 blocks last year. Tough to average 0.92 blocks over the course of 119 games.

** butthurt fans alert. Lebron doesn't need to play 179 games or average what Jordan did to be considered a great player. I made this thread sometime last year just to show how dominant Jordan was in the playoffs, statistically speaking. Pretty impressive, no? And he did it playing alongside Scottie Pippen for most of it. Think about that.

[Killuminati90]

Why even making this thread? Obviously Jordan performed better than all those players mentioned. I think this thread is just an ego bust for the OP...I mean, if you gonna compare Jordan`s performances at playoffs at least pick players like Kareem, Wilt, Magic or Bird. Thats more of a fair comparison.

[plowking]

He is a one of a kind player, agreed. And everything you said in your second paragraph, I agree with as well.

But as for You can't make an argument for someone being more talented than LeBron. He's as good as it gets from a talent perspective.....I strongly disagree.

He is not as "good as it gets" Imo.
Players like Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and even Kobe Bryant & Kevin Garnett are as good as it gets. Players with no weaknesses at all to their individual games.

LeBron still has a fundamentally flawed game and I don't understand why people cannot see this.

He still is a mediocre AT BEST post up player, posseses an average AT BEST midrange game, horrible post defender for his size, and posseses mediocre to average footwork......His game is just too predictable to me.

Are you kidding? How are any of these guys more talented than Lebron? I understand the others (although you're still wrong), but those guys are no where near as talented as Lebron. They are great players due to being just amazing fundamentally and in other aspects of the game, but from a strictly talent perspective only Wilt, Shaq and Jordan match up with Lebron.

As for his game being fundamentally flawed... Yeah, a 6'8 guy with the ability to play 4 positions is fundamentally flawed...

[Killuminati90]

Are you kidding? How are any of these guys more talented than Lebron? I understand the others (although you're still wrong), but those guys are no where near as talented as Lebron. They are great players due to being just amazing fundamentally and in other aspects of the game, but from a strictly talent perspective only Wilt, Shaq and Jordan match up with Lebron.

As for his game being fundamentally flawed... Yeah, a 6'8 guy with the ability to play 4 positions is fundamentally flawed...

What are you talking about man? Each of them 3 are yet as talented or even more than Lebron. Come on, we talking about Larry Bird, probably the best SF of all time, he had a natural game, it was a joy to see him play (although ive only saw him in tapes and stuff but doesnt matter).

Same goes for Jerry and Kobe, specially Kobe, if you talking about talent and skill Bryant is ahead of Lebron. However, James is far superior on physical duties, he is perfectly body-built to practice any sport, specially basketball. His strengh, stamina, quickness is f*cking amazing, he is very talented also, for sure, but his game doesnt rely that much on that aspect.

[madmax]

What are you talking about man? Each of them 3 are yet as talented or even more than Lebron. Come on, we talking about Larry Bird, probably the best SF of all time, he had a natural game, it was a joy to see him play (although ive only saw him in tapes and stuff but doesnt matter).

Same goes for Jerry and Kobe, specially Kobe, if you talking about talent and skill Bryant is ahead of Lebron. However, James is far superior on physical duties, he is perfectly body-built to practice any sport, specially basketball. His strengh, stamina, quickness is f*cking amazing, he is very talented also, for sure, but his game doesnt rely that much on that aspect.
I'll just say one thing - anyone who claims that Lebron is not an all time great talent is a moron or deluded hater...Lebron haters love to repeat their BS about him not having any fundamentals and relying only on brute physical force. That's as far from the truth as it can be - his best asset is not his scoring or driving, but his natural passing game and willingness to defer to his teammates. That's why his teams always overachieved even when he had scrubs of a teammates, because he simply makes everyone arround him better...and he does it instantly in any kind of environment thanks to his amazing court awareness and passing skills

[gotbacon23]

while I think MJ is the GOAT playoff performer, its not about averages so throw this out the window. so yeah, maybe lebron could become the GOAT playoff performer (not saying he will) but still have lower averages, or maybe another player will surpass MJ's averages but not have the moments, winning, cluthnesss, etc to be considered the GOAT playoff performer.

keep in mind that through 6 full seasons, MJ won 5 playoff series. lebron has won 7 series through 6 full years. That isn't a huge difference but jordan hadn't become the GOAT playoff performer at the same stage in their careers.

for the record, i don't think lebron will surpass jordan in terms of being a playoff performer, but i think it is possible even if his average's don't exceed MJ's averages.

[Killuminati90]

I'll just say one thing - anyone who claims that Lebron is not an all time great talent is a moron or deluded hater...Lebron haters love to repeat their BS about him not having any fundamentals and relying only on brute physical force. That's as far from the truth as it can be - his best asset is not his scoring or driving, but his natural passing game and willingness to defer to his teammates. That's why his teams always overachieved even when he had scrubs of a teammates, because he simply makes everyone arround him better...and he does it instantly in any kind of environment thanks to his amazing court awareness and passing skills

Who in the f*ck said Lebron only has brute physical force and no talent? It was me? Because I didnt notice.

Im not a hater first of all, second, I said Lebron has natural physical habilities for this sport, but he also has much talent. Of course he can pass the ball very well, he is talented, but more talented than Bird or Bryant? hell no, but its only my opinion. Dont put words on my mouth I didnt say.

[jlauber]

Just MY two-cents...

While I will shy away from the Jordan-Kobe debate, all I needed to know about who the best player in the Lebron-Kobe discussion took place in the 2008 Olympics. Who took over late in the title game?

Lebron is more physically gifted than either MJ or Kobe. Maybe one day he will be ranked on their level...but as of now, no question that Kobe is the best player in the league today.

[Da_Realist]

Why even making this thread? Obviously Jordan performed better than all those players mentioned. I think this thread is just an ego bust for the OP...I mean, if you gonna compare Jordan`s performances at playoffs at least pick players like Kareem, Wilt, Magic or Bird. Thats more of a fair comparison.

Why didn't I compare Jordan to Magic, Bird, Wilt or Kareem? Because I thought it would be interesting to track the newer players. The other guys have already retired. I think it was during the time everyone was talking about the next GOAT and I wanted to throw it out there what these new perimeter players were competing against statistically. Admittedly, I forgot exactly what prompted it. I created it last year, not yesterday.

Oh...and I think it's much harder to compare perimeter players to centers/power forwards and that would require more than just comparing stats straight-up.


while I think MJ is the GOAT playoff performer, its not about averages so throw this out the window. so yeah, maybe lebron could become the GOAT playoff performer (not saying he will) but still have lower averages, or maybe another player will surpass MJ's averages but not have the moments, winning, cluthnesss, etc to be considered the GOAT playoff performer.

keep in mind that through 6 full seasons, MJ won 5 playoff series. lebron has won 7 series through 6 full years. That isn't a huge difference but jordan hadn't become the GOAT playoff performer at the same stage in their careers.

for the record, i don't think lebron will surpass jordan in terms of being a playoff performer, but i think it is possible even if his average's don't exceed MJ's averages.

I agree with this. This thread was only about playoff stats. A more interesting discussion would be about all the intangibles that made certain players great but we would lose 90% of this board because most only seem interested in pure numbers.

[sekachu]

[QUOTE=Fatal9]In comparing their finals performances, consider that MJ has never even come close to facing a defense as good as the '08 Celtics or the '04 Pistons in the finals. They actually have a higher defensive rating than any team MJ has ever faced though it is pretty close to 90s Knicks (but then again, Jordan had a huge size advantage in his matchup with Starks). More physical yes, but not more intelligent. It is nearly impossible for a player to get any sort of dribble penetration against those two teams because of the layer of defenders in the lane which is anchored by the DPOY. This really blocks Kobe, Lebron or Wade from exploding against a good defense. Not saying Jordan had it any easier because he had ten eyes on him at all times but so did Kobe and Lebron against the Celtics.

size excuses as always fatal9, let make it simple, Great player is great player, it doesn't matter who they against with (even bigger size), what kind of defense they face, they will find their way to overcome whatever throw to them. As great as MJ, there is no need to doubt him how he will play in today. We all know he would be still the best.

Starks is one of the best defender i have ever seen, he is the man who could always stay in front of Michael Jordan challenging every shots he made.

[guy]

Just MY two-cents...

While I will shy away from the Jordan-Kobe debate, all I needed to know about who the best player in the Lebron-Kobe discussion took place in the 2008 Olympics. Who took over late in the title game?

Lebron is more physically gifted than either MJ or Kobe. Maybe one day he will be ranked on their level...but as of now, no question that Kobe is the best player in the league today.

Sooo Kobe is better then Lebron TODAY because of 1 game that happened nearly 2 years ago? Nevermind the fact that Lebron was the better player throughout the Olympics. But anyway, the 2008 Olympics has nothing to do with anything. I agree that Kobe was the better player through the 2008 season. But I think Lebron surpassed him in 2009, and this year it's inarguable that he's the better player. In fact I would say Kobe has never played at the level Lebron has been playing at this season. As of right now, there is really no argument for anyone to be MVP over Lebron, and that includes Kobe.

[jlauber]

In terms of STATISTICALLY matching up with MJ...Wilt, in his first SIX playoff seasons, averaged 33 ppg and 26 rpg, and shot over 50%. And he did it facing Bill Russell and the vaunted Celtic Dynasty in most of them. And, he had some MONUMENTAL games against Russell in the post-season (50-35, 46-34, 29-36, and 30-32 to just name a few of MANY.)

Had he not been asked to reduce his offense by his coaches later in the decade of the 60's, he probably would have been right there with MJ in scoring. And, while Russell had a higher post-season rebound average, Wilt outrebounded Russell in EVERY post-season series.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Are you kidding? How are any of these guys more talented than Lebron? I understand the others (although you're still wrong), but those guys are no where near as talented as Lebron. They are great players due to being just amazing fundamentally and in other aspects of the game, but from a strictly talent perspective only Wilt, Shaq and Jordan match up with Lebron.

As for his game being fundamentally flawed... Yeah, a 6'8 guy with the ability to play 4 positions is fundamentally flawed...

Are YOU kidding me?...I am curious to know what you describe as "fundamental" because it seems as if your only focusing on athleticism.

For you to say Bird, Kobe, or West is nowhere or even suggest that I'm wrong about Hakeem or Garnett being more talented is just downright laughable. These players have no weaknesses to their games at all. These players are amongst the most complete in Nba history.

"Yeah, a 6'8 guy with the ability to play 4 positions is fundamentally flawed"....

Uh yeah, his game is fundamentally flawed. What does him being able to play 4 positions have to do with the fundamental aspects of his game anyway?...He still has a predictable game and I pointed the obvious flaws in his game.

What good of a 4(power forward) could he be against other elite power forwards when he is a horrible post defender for his size and is a mediocre at best post up player?

[guy]

BTW I find it funny that people are getting so sensitive about Da Realist's post. Nowhere did I see in his post that the statistical differences between Jordan and Lebron meant Jordan was better, nor did he even say Jordan's stats were automatically better due to his scoring/FG%. He clearly pointed out that Lebron would most likely be better statistically in certain areas and vice-versa.

And another thing, I don't agree that the league has been weak as a whole in the past decade. I think the league has been strong at some times, especially the Western Conference, and for the past 3 years we've seen some great basketball. However, there is no doubt that the Eastern Conference, where Lebron resides in, has been considerably weaker then any season of Jordan's career.

[AirJordan&Magic]

I'll just say one thing - anyone who claims that Lebron is not an all time great talent is a moron or deluded hater...Lebron haters love to repeat their BS about him not having any fundamentals and relying only on brute physical force. That's as far from the truth as it can be - his best asset is not his scoring or driving, but his natural passing game and willingness to defer to his teammates. That's why his teams always overachieved even when he had scrubs of a teammates, because he simply makes everyone arround him better...and he does it instantly in any kind of environment thanks to his amazing court awareness and passing skills

Being realistic about his game is not being a hater. Noone said he ONLY uses "brute physical force" for his points or that he is not an all time great talent, but to act as if he is more fundamentally talented than players that were actually better pure basketball players than him is foolish.....

I've said many times that his passing ability is the most impressive thing about his game.

I don't even know why you are even bringing up term "hater". Everytime I see you post, there is a hateful comment of yours on Jordan and a biased homerish comment regarding LeBron.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'll just say one thing - anyone who claims that Lebron is not an all time great talent is a moron or deluded hater...Lebron haters love to repeat their BS about him not having any fundamentals and relying only on brute physical force. That's as far from the truth as it can be - his best asset is not his scoring or driving, but his natural passing game and willingness to defer to his teammates. That's why his teams always overachieved even when he had scrubs of a teammates, because he simply makes everyone arround him better...and he does it instantly in any kind of environment thanks to his amazing court awareness and passing skills

:applause:

The funny thing is some people, usually fans of you know who, claim Lebron has succeeded with "scrubs" only because he plays in a weak era.

Lebron with scrubs=66 wins in 09', NBA finals in 07', #1 record in the league again this year before the Jamison trade finally gave him a good team
Kobe with scrubs=45, 42 wins and a losing season (albeit he was injured for much of it)
Wade with scrubs=43 wins and barely above .500 again this year

If it is so easy to elevate "scrubs" in today's weak game (remember, basketball died in 1998. Byron Russell died for MJ's sins! :lol ) why couldn't prime/peak Kobe and prime/peak Wade come even close to what Lebron has done?

Plus, they act as if no perimeter player elevated "scrubs" to title contention prior to 2007. Rick Barry and Larry Bird anyone?

[Alhazred]

Plus, they act as if no perimeter player elevated "scrubs" to title contention prior to 2007. Rick Barry and Larry Bird anyone?

Barry, yes. Bird, though? When did he do that? I don't think Larry was ever on a roster made up of all scrubs.

1980 doesn't count, either. Nate Archibald, Dave Cowens and Cedric Maxwell were on the team and they had the 1980 Coach of the Year, Bill Fitch.

[LA_Showtime]

Why do you guys have to remind us that Jordan is the GOAT? He's retired, and he's never coming back.

Complain all you want about Laker fans, but once player ___ retires we talk about somebody else.

SMH

[Indian guy]

Barry, yes. Bird, though? When did he do that? I don't think Larry was ever on a roster made up of all scrubs.

He could be referring to Boston in Bird's rookie season. But that team was loaded, they only sucked the prior season because of injuries to key players.

[Killuminati90]

Why do you guys have to remind us that Jordan is the GOAT? He's retired, and he's never coming back.

Complain all you want about Laker fans, but once player ___ retires we talk about somebody else.

SMH


To be honest, people can talk about whatever they want. And talking about past legends, comparing them, showing good videos and stuff...is entertaining. All from respect clearly.

[imdaman99]

The only reason MJ had 6 championships is because he never had that other team in the west to compete with the Bulls like the Celtics and Lakers and Pistons had knocking each other out in the Finals. And don't tell me the 91 Lakers because they were old and done about then. Who cares if this has nothing to do with the thread? :D

[Alhazred]

He could be referring to Boston in Bird's rookie season. But that team was loaded, they only sucked the prior season because of injuries to key players.

Plus, there was the 1979 McAdoo trade that just made the season that much worse and nearly drove Auerbach out of Boston.

[LA_Showtime]

To be honest, people can talk about whatever they want. And talking about past legends, comparing them, showing good videos and stuff...is entertaining. All from respect clearly.

Yeah, but a lot of guys on here don't bring up Jordan out of respect. Instead, they make stupid threads with obvious agendas even though everyone already knows the answer.

[Killuminati90]

The only reason MJ had 6 championships is because he never had that other team in the west to compete with the Bulls like the Celtics and Lakers and Pistons had knocking each other out in the Finals. And don't tell me the 91 Lakers because they were old and done about then. Who cares if this has nothing to do with the thread? :D


Utah Jazz with Malone and Stockton.

Seattle Supersonics with Payton and Kemp.

Phoenix Suns with Barkley, Majerle and Johnson.



Try a little bit harder hater.

[Killuminati90]

Yeah, but a lot of guys on here don't bring up Jordan out of respect. Instead, they make stupid threads with obvious agendas even though everyone already knows the answer.


Its true some of them open obvious threads just to have an ego bust on "look how good MJ was, come on say yes and move on"...but others really bring interesting threads and fair comparisons.

[Alhazred]

The only reason MJ had 6 championships is because he never had that other team in the west to compete with the Bulls like the Celtics and Lakers and Pistons had knocking each other out in the Finals. And don't tell me the 91 Lakers because they were old and done about then. Who cares if this has nothing to do with the thread? :D

You mean the Lakers team that only had one starter over the age of 30? Worthy, Scott and Perkins were only 29, and Vlade Divac was 22. Magic himself was only 31 and was second in MVP voting in 91.

[Killuminati90]

You mean the Lakers team that only had one starter over the age of 30? Worthy, Scott and Perkins were only 29, and Vlade Divac was 22. Magic himself was only 31 and was second in MVP voting in 91.


Seriously dont bother replying, he is just an 12 year old kid with 2 months recent basketball knowledge. Apparently the names of Stockton, Malone, Kemp, Payton, Barkley are not familiar with him.

[imdaman99]

Utah Jazz with Malone and Stockton.

Seattle Supersonics with Payton and Kemp.

Phoenix Suns with Barkley, Majerle and Johnson.



Try a little bit harder hater.
None of those won championships at all, thus none of them were great. Yeah I hate the Bulls but I'm a Knicks fan what do you expect? At least the Bulls future looks good right? Oh wait you don't root for the Bulls anymore, I guess you're rooting on the Lakers nowadays. Hi Hater, bye Hater :D

[imdaman99]

You mean the Lakers team that only had one starter over the age of 30? Worthy, Scott and Perkins were only 29, and Vlade Divac was 22. Magic himself was only 31 and was second in MVP voting in 91.
Oh yeah? Was that not the weakest of the Lakers teams? Oh no it was Jordan who beat them, that means that Lakers team was better than the 80s Lakers because Jordan never beat weak competition. Craig Ehlo was also the best defensive player in the league, its a surprise how many DPOY's he was denied.

[Da_Realist]

Why do you guys have to remind us that Jordan is the GOAT? He's retired, and he's never coming back.

Complain all you want about Laker fans, but once player ___ retires we talk about somebody else.

SMH

Relax. This thread was created LAST YEAR. I wouldn't have made this thread this year because there are so many sensitive, butthurt posters here on ISH that are sick to death of hearing about Jordan. I understand it. Sometimes I think I'm sick of hearing about Jordan -- and I'm a fan.

[Killuminati90]

None of those won championships at all, thus none of them were great. Yeah I hate the Bulls but I'm a Knicks fan what do you expect? At least the Bulls future looks good right? Oh wait you don't root for the Bulls anymore, I guess you're rooting on the Lakers nowadays. Hi Hater, bye Hater :D


"None of those won championships at all" --> Yeah great logic, its called Chicago Bulls, with Rodman, Pippen and Jordan. This is like the dog trying to catch his own tail, its stupid.

They didnt win because they had probably the GOAT of all time, but that doesnt take the fact that Utah Jazz with Malone and Stockton were a great competition, or Sonics with Payton and Kemp.

Congratulations for being a Knicks fan, im sure you have enjoyed a lot of chips this last decade.

Ive rooted for the Lakers all my life, but I think MJ > Kobe. Nice try on failing me though. :oldlol:

To end, your the one hating with very weak arguments on MJ, not me, so please, dont do inverse psycology, its overrated.

[Alhazred]

Seriously dont bother replying, he is just an 12 year old kid with 2 months recent basketball knowledge. Apparently the names of Stockton, Malone, Kemp, Payton, Barkley are not familiar with him.

I know, I just felt obligated to correct his error.


Oh yeah? Was that not the weakest of the Lakers teams? Oh no it was Jordan who beat them, that means that Lakers team was better than the 80s Lakers because Jordan never beat weak competition. Craig Ehlo was also the best defensive player in the league, its a surprise how many DPOY's he was denied.

That has nothing to do with what you originally said. You claimed the Lakers were "old and done", despite four of their starters being under the age of 30. :oldlol: You're a joke, dude.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Celtics won 32 games in 78'. Anyway, the point is a perimeter player did elevate "scrubs" in Barry and so did centers like Kareem, Wilt, and Russell. Moreover, the "weak league" excuse is demonstrably false since peak/prime Kobe and peak/prime Wade could not get anywhere close to the results Lebron did with "scrubs."

Regarding competition for Jordan, he has a point. The Suns and Sonics were one hit wonders. They were not great teams in the sense of the 80's Celtics that the Lakers faced. The Jazz were legit competition, except that Malone and Stockton forgot to show up in the NBA finals. The 90's were the only decade other than the 70's to not have multiple great teams, and the 70's had 9 different champions so there was parity. The 90's had one great team winning every year with a different opponent in the finals every year until 98'. Even in the ECF the Bulls faced 6 different teams in their title years. Where was this great foil to the Bulls? It was a revolving door of pretenders.

:oldlol: at the weakest Lakers team being cited as tough competition. Jordan fans themselves conceded in another thread, when their agenda was different (diminishing Pippen in a hypothetical), that the 90's Bulls biggest competition was the Ewing/Starks Knicks. Nuff' said. (no offense imdaman)

[Killuminati90]

The Celtics won 32 games in 78'. Anyway, the point is a perimeter player did elevate "scrubs" in Barry and so did centers like Kareem, Wilt, and Russell. Moreover, the "weak league" excuse is demonstrably false since peak/prime Kobe and peak/prime Wade could not get anywhere close to the results Lebron did with "scrubs."

Regarding competition for Jordan, he has a point. The Suns and Sonics were one hit wonders. They were not great teams in the sense of the 80's Celtics that the Lakers faced. The Jazz were legit competition, except that Malone and Stockton forgot to show up in the NBA finals.

:oldlol: at the weakest Lakers team being cited as tough competition. Jordan fans themselves conceded in another thread, when their agenda was different (diminishing Pippen in a hypothetical), that the 90's Bulls biggest competition was the Ewing/Starks Knicks. Nuff' said. (no offense imdaman)


Come on dude, dont give love to indaman just because it fits your MJ bashing, Im starting to believe you really have something against him.

[imdaman99]

I know, I just felt obligated to correct his error.



That has nothing to do with what you originally said. You claimed the Lakers were "old and done", despite four of their starters being under the age of 30. :oldlol: You're a joke, dude.
I'm a joke because I don't like MJ. You're mad that you have to watch Kobe win championships now :roll:

Bump this thread next year too dawg :lol

[Alhazred]

I'm a joke because I don't like MJ. You're mad that you have to watch Kobe win championships now :roll:

You're a joke because you don't know sh-t about NBA history.

And Kobe can win as many rings as he likes, so long as it's in LA. :cheers:


Bump this thread next year too dawg :lol

I'm not the one who brought this thread back.

[Roundball_Rock]

Come on dude, dont give love to indaman just because it fits your MJ bashing, Im starting to believe you really have something against him.

I've said what imdaman has said numerous times and the facts suggest we are correct. 5 different NBA finals opponents and 6 different ECF opponents in 6 seasons. Where was this great foil to the Bulls? It was a revolving door. There were great teams for individual seasons, like the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics but since when are one hit wonders considered "great" teams? Every other decade, barring the decade of parity that was the 70's, had multiple great teams. The 90's had one. Where was this great competition? Yes, there was competition. There always is. No one wins a championship in any sport without competition. The question is the level of that competition. As I mentioned, even Jordan fans themselves said the toughest competition the 90's Bulls had was the 90's Knicks (this gem came in a hypothetical thread where MJ fans feverishly tried to argue Pippen could never win a ring without Jordan and to do this they hyped the 90's Knicks as a juggernaut that would stop Pippen/Richmond/K. Johnson/Smits/Grant/Kukoc/Armstrong :roll: ). What does that tell you?

As to MJ, yes I do have something against him, namely his fans.

[guy]

The Celtics won 32 games in 78'. Anyway, the point is a perimeter player did elevate "scrubs" in Barry and so did centers like Kareem, Wilt, and Russell. Moreover, the "weak league" excuse is demonstrably false since peak/prime Kobe and peak/prime Wade could not get anywhere close to the results Lebron did with "scrubs."

I think Lebron deserves all the props he gets for doing what he has done. Leading that type of talent to the Finals and to 66 wins is remarkable, regardless of his competition. However, do you honestly think he does that in any other conference in the past 30 years? He doesn't do that in the 80s or 90s East or the 80s,90s, or 00s West. I think he might've led the 09 Cavs to that many wins in some seasons of the 00s West, but I doubt in any other situation.



Regarding competition for Jordan, he has a point. The Suns and Sonics were one hit wonders. They were not great teams in the sense of the 80's Celtics that the Lakers faced. The Jazz were legit competition, except that Malone and Stockton forgot to show up in the NBA finals. The 90's were the only decade other than the 70's to not have multiple great teams, and the 70's had 9 different champions so there was parity. The 90's had one great team winning every year with a different opponent in the finals every year until 98'. Even in the ECF the Bulls faced 6 different teams in their title years. Where was this great foil to the Bulls? It was a revolving door of pretenders.)

This is a dumb argument. In no way does that mean they had weak competition. Here's an example: If you put the 60s Celtics, 67 Sixers, early 70s Knicks, 71 Bucks, 72 Lakers, 80s Lakers, 80s Celtics, 83 Sixers, late 80s Pistons, 90s Bulls, 94-95 Rockets, early 00s Lakers, the 00s Spurs, 04-05 Pistons, 08 Celtics, and 09 Lakers all in the same league over a decade, you're very likely going to see different teams every year making the Finals and Conference Finals. Would you say that would be weak competition though? I'm obviously not saying the 90s was that strong, cause clearly no era was ever that strong, but the same logic applies.

You can also counter your argument by saying that because of how competitive the league was, it was harder for teams to stay on top for a long time, which is why there were different teams in the Finals/CF every year, and that other eras that had the opposite trend were weak because those top teams that were going that deep every year only had a few other teams to really worry about. I'm not saying thats true, but someone easily counter your argument with that.

You're also ignoring the fact that with more teams and greater free agency facilitating player movement, you're obviously going to see greater variances in who makes the playoffs/CF/Finals/Champions every year. Its simple math.

You could be right, although I disagree with you, but the point is thats very faulty logic you're using. You can't just look at who's at the top every year and conclude the era is weak or strong. It doesn't work like that at all.

[Roundball_Rock]

Fortunately we have a direct comparison for Lebron in that very conference at the very same time: Wade. Wade with a similarly weak team went 43-39 in the best season of his career. How can this be if it is so easy for an elite player to lead "scrubs" to 60+ wins in the weak 09' East? We also saw peak Kobe with similar teams a few years ago, albeit in the West but the results were not anywhere near Lebron's. There was not a 20+ win difference in competition level between conferences. Moreover, the East is now a solid conference and Lebron kept chugging before the Jamison trade.

Jordan fans quibble too much on details with respect to Lebron and lose the larger point. It isn't about 66 wins or making the NBA finals in 07'. The point is he got far greater results than others in similar situations and would do so in any era. Would he win 66 games in 1967 or 1997? Who cares? He would win a lot more than some others put in that position. Would he reach the NBA finals in 87' or 77'? Probably not but would he be losing in the first round? No. Would he go deeper than some others? Yes.


You can also counter your argument by saying that because of how competitive the league was, it was harder for teams to stay on top for a long time, which is why there were different teams in the Finals/CF every year

Except for the fact that one team stayed on the top for the decade. The 90's weren't the 70's with 9 different champions.

You were one of the people saying the 90's Knicks were the Bulls' chief competition. Compare that to the top competition the other dynasties had.


You're also ignoring the fact that with more teams and greater free agency facilitating player movement, you're obviously going to see greater variances in who makes the playoffs/CF/Finals/Champions every year. Its simple math.

That sounds good in theory but too bad the 2000's happened and the Lakers made the finals 6 times and the Spurs 4 while Detroit made 5 straight conference finals. The 00's were typical: two great teams, a few other very good teams. There were teams with staying power and several one or two hit wonder types like the Nets and Blazers. Really the only decade that fits your description is the 70's, a decade derided by some.

What is clear the Bulls' had no foil like the 80's Lakers/Celtics had with each other or the 60's Celtics had with Wilt's teams and to a lesser extent the West/Baylor Lakers. Even the 00's had the Lakers and Spurs contending at the same time. Using the standard definition of a "great team" the 90's had only one. You can explain that away, although the 2000's throw a wrench in most explanations, but that is a separate question. Look at who was being mentioned as tough competition. The 96' Sonics. Where were the Payton/Kemp Sonics in the rest of the 90's? If they were that strong surely they would have done more, no? How about the 93' Suns? They never even got to the WCF again. 96' Magic? That is a legit example--too bad Shaq left and Orlando collapsed. Had he stayed that could have been legit competition.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Lebron will come the closest, he might even be able to top him at some point.

[Johnni Gade]

Kobe will pass Jordan easily in all these categories.
how ignorant is this

[BlueandGold]

Yes, I read the post, I thought given the OP the point of this thread was for everyone to try and make the dumbest post possible.

uh whats' wrong with the OP.. just because someone doesn't have kobe #1 in some arbitrary stat list it doesn't mean that their trying to slander your idol's name.

I don't see how lebron.. who's obviously much taller, stronger and has a much larger frame doesn't have as many blocks per game in the playoffs than jordan.. especially considering he's already had a couple of "breakout" games in the playoffs. If Lebron were to develop a top-tier post game and take advantage of his body and height more he could easily average 1.5-2 blocks a game, especially during a short interval period like in the playoffs.

[guy]

Fortunately we have a direct comparison for Lebron in that very conference at the very same time: Wade. Wade with a similarly weak team went 43-39 in the best season of his career. How can this be if it is so easy for an elite player to lead "scrubs" to 60+ wins in the weak 09' East? We also saw peak Kobe with similar teams a few years ago, albeit in the West but the results were not anywhere near Lebron's. There was not a 20+ win difference in competition level between conferences. Moreover, the East is now a solid conference and Lebron kept chugging before the Jamison trade.

Lebron's supporting cast last year and this year was nowhere near as bad Wade's last year and this year or Kobe's in 06 or 07. And Lebron last year was arguably better then Kobe and Wade ever were, and I would definitely say thats the case this year. So IMO, its still surprising to me that Lebron has done this much with these teams, but its not surprising to me that Wade and Kobe, lesser players, did that bad with worse teams and couldn't elevate their teams the way Lebron generally does. I agree that the East has been getting better, but it still hasn't been nearly as good as it was in the 80s and 90s.



Jordan fans quibble too much on details with respect to Lebron and lose the larger point. It isn't about 66 wins or making the NBA finals in 07'. The point is he got far greater results than others in similar situations and would do so in any era. Would he win 66 games in 1967 or 1997? Who cares? He would win a lot more than some others put in that position. Would he reach the NBA finals in 87' or 77'? Probably not but would he be losing in the first round? No. Would he go deeper than some others? Yes.

LOL at you of all people saying Jordan fans quibble on details. The point is they are NOT similar situations. The East in 2007-2009 was not a similer situation to the East in 1987-1989. Put 07 Lebron in Jordan's place in 87, and they probably lose in the first round. Better yet, put the 07 Cavs in the 87, and they probably lose in the first round, or in the second round at the very least.

Put 09 Lebron in Jordan's place in 89, or put the 09 Cavs in the 89 Bulls place, and with the benefit of the doubt, I'll say they maybe win about 55 games, but lose in the ECF to the Pistons. So then what are you going to say? That Lebron got far greater results then Jordan because of a measly 8 games?



Except for the fact that one team stayed on the top for the decade. The 90's weren't the 70's with 9 different champions.

And then you can counter that by saying its a testament to the Bulls' greatness that they were able to stay on top while other great teams around them were not able to sustain their position. You can go around the argument whatever way you look at it. Look at my example putting all the great teams in one decade. With that example, you're very likely going to see 9 different champions like the 70s, but you would be an idiot to call that competition "weak".



You were one of the people saying the 90's Knicks were the Bulls' chief competition. Compare that to the top competition the other dynasties had.

I think the Knicks were a great team. I don't think they were as good as the 80s Lakers, Celtics, or Pistons, but they were great enough competition regardless that the Bulls' and Jordan's accomplishments shouldn't be diminished like people like you do. And that doesn't just go for the Knicks, but for many of the teams the Bulls played.



That sounds good in theory but too bad the 2000's happened and the Lakers made the finals 6 times and the Spurs 4 while Detroit made 5 straight conference finals. The 00's were typical: two great teams, a few other very good teams. There were teams with staying power and several one or two hit wonder types like the Nets and Blazers. Really the only decade that fits your description is the 70's, a decade derided by some.

Okay, I'm not saying its always going to happen like that. But simple math clearly shows that its more likely. Obviously teams that have the right foundation, as in great star players to build around such as a Shaq/Kobe/Duncan, great coaches such as PJ/Popovich, and great management to build around that foundation, are going to be more successful then others. Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it wasn't more likely at the time.



What is clear the Bulls' had no foil like the 80's Lakers/Celtics had with each other or the 60's Celtics had with Wilt's teams and to a lesser extent the West/Baylor Lakers.

You can't compare the 90s to the 60s and then criticize the Bulls for not having a "foil" that they played every year. The league was 2-3 times smaller. If you cut 60-75% of the teams from the 90s away, there's a good chance the Bulls play the same teams every year. The Bulls might've played the Knicks in the ECF every year and the Jazz in the Finals every year. If the Bulls played the Knicks 7 times in the conference Finals of the 90s, and the Jazz 7 times in the Finals, and beat them with most of the series going 6-7 games, does that make their competition better since now they had a "foil", even though most of those other great teams don't exist now?

And as far as the 80s go, most people will agree that the West was kinda weak in comparison to the East. If the Lakers had the same quality competition that the Celtics had to deal with in the East, there's a great chance they win less championships and make less NBA finals, and as a result, maybe the Lakers/Celtics play each other once as opposed to three times, eliminating that "foil". So by your logic, that makes the competition worse, even though the thing that changed was that the West had better teams and got stronger. Doesn't make much sense right?



Even the 00's had the Lakers and Spurs contending at the same time. Using the standard definition of a "great team" the 90's had only one.


Okay, and if the Bulls were playing in the 00s and won every single championship away from the Lakers and Spurs, then that would've meant they would've been just as dominant as they were in the 90s, and since they were only team that dominated, this era would've been weaker. It would've been considered weak even though neither the Lakers or Spurs got worse, and the only thing that changed was the addition of an all-time great team.

This goes back to the dumb argument that indicates if the Bulls had lost a few times, it would've somehow validated their competition. Lets say the Bulls lose to the Knicks 93, who then go on to win a championship. Then lets say John Starks three-pointer in game 6 of the 94 Finals goes in, and they win it all again to beat the Rockets, the next year's champions. The Bulls then beat the Knicks in 96, and then lets say that huge fight doesn't happen in the 97 ECSF between the Knicks and Heat resulting in so many suspensions, and the Knicks end up winning that series, and then go on to play the Bulls in the ECF only to lose. Under this scenario, the Bulls are 4-2 in 90s playoff series (one loss without Jordan) against the Knicks, a two-time champion and a consensus "great team" as a result. In your opinion, would this have made the Bulls greater as a result of having a what's considered greater competition? Even though the Bulls would actually have one less title and the competition did not TRULY get better, its just that one playoff loss and a John Starks three-pointer creates that illusion?




You can explain that away, although the 2000's throw a wrench in most explanations, but that is a separate question. Look at who was being mentioned as tough competition. The 96' Sonics. Where were the Payton/Kemp Sonics in the rest of the 90's? If they were that strong surely they would have done more, no? How about the 93' Suns? They never even got to the WCF again. 96' Magic? That is a legit example--too bad Shaq left and Orlando collapsed. Had he stayed that could have been legit competition.

The Sonics won 55 games and went to the WCF in 1993, and then after that had seasons of 63, 57, 64, 57, and 61 wins. They regularly owned the Rockets, who won 2 championships and had one of the greatest centers ever and clearly the greatest center of the decade. They did have that notorious collapse in 94, which isn't any worse then 81 Lakers losing to a below .500 Rockets. Some of their other playoff losses were to a great 93 Suns, the 96 Bulls that doesn't need any more explanation, the 97 Rockets led by three HOFers, and the very talented 98 Lakers led by a near-prime Shaq. Nothing to be ashamed of. They were very clearly a big part of the 90s.

The Suns were arguably just as good in 94 and 95, as they were in the 93 Finals. Unfortunately, they ended up facing a championship team led by a HOFer on a killing spree a little bit earlier this time, when they faced Hakeem's Rockets. Nothing to be ashamed of. They were actually a great team even before Barkley got there. Barkley left and that was the end of that.

The 96 Magic were clearly legit competition. They had a top 10 player ever, with another would be HOFer if it wasn't for injuries, who won 60 games and made the Finals the year before. Had he stayed and Penny never got injured, I think they would've definitely given the Bulls a tough time the next two years just on their talent alone, but there immaturity and lack of focus (especially Shaq at the time) would've probably resulted in them losing. But I'm sure some of you would've still disregarded them as legit competition.

Like I said, the point is you can come up with a ton of scenarios that says neither "staying power" or "revolving doors" indicate strong or weak.

[Fatal9]

Current Lebron would have had a legit chance to take down the Pistons in '90 imo. Jordan had an all-star Pippen who was beasting in playoffs, Grant who had developed nicely and a decent team around him. Pippen's health was a factor in game 7 but if Jordan even shows up for one road game in that series (specifically first two games where he shot 17/43, while Grant and Pippen played pretty well...Pippen averaged 17 ppg on 50% over the two games and Grant had 17/9 in game 2, and they held Pistons to just 86 pts), the series possibly could have been over in 6.

[guy]

Current Lebron would have had a legit chance to take down the Pistons in '90 imo. Jordan had an all-star Pippen who was beasting in playoffs, Grant who had developed nicely and a decent team around him. Pippen's health was a factor in game 7 but if Jordan even shows up for one road game in that series (specifically first two games where he shot [B]17/43, while Grant and Pippen played pretty well...Pippen averaged 17 ppg on 50% over the two games and Grant had 17/9 in game 2, and they held Pistons to just 86 pts), the series possibly could have been over in 6.

LOL at the agenda. Lebron has shot relatively inefficient in entire playoff runs, not just a playoff series or a stretch of 2-3 games, so I wouldn't assume that he would've done any better against what was the best defense in the league at the time.

Sure he would've had a legit chance, the same way Jordan did. But I highly doubt they would've won.

[Indian guy]

if Jordan even shows up for one road game in that series

MJ had 2 fine road games in Game 1 & 7 of that series. Averaging 32.5/7.5/7. Problem was everybody else. Bulls averaged a pathetic 75.5 ppg in those 2 losses.

MJ also hurt himself early in Game 1. Never moved that well the rest of the series.

[NBASTATMAN]

Current Lebron would have had a legit chance to take down the Pistons in '90 imo. Jordan had an all-star Pippen who was beasting in playoffs, Grant who had developed nicely and a decent team around him. Pippen's health was a factor in game 7 but if Jordan even shows up for one road game in that series (specifically first two games where he shot 17/43, while Grant and Pippen played pretty well...Pippen averaged 17 ppg on 50% over the two games and Grant had 17/9 in game 2, and they held Pistons to just 86 pts), the series possibly could have been over in 6.


He is the only player that I would say that could have had as good or better of a chance than Mj... So yea it is possible.. Their defensive tactics would work less against Lebron in my opinion cuz of Lebron's passing.. Which I believe is better than Mj's... I know I am going to be killed for writing that but that is the truth...

[Heilige]

He is the only player that I would say that could have had as good or better of a chance than Mj... So yea it is possible.. Their defensive tactics would work less against Lebron in my opinion cuz of Lebron's passing.. Which I believe is better than Mj's... I know I am going to be killed for writing that but that is the truth...


You already made that post in this thread. Why did you post it again?

[juju151111]

]Current Lebron would have had a legit chance to take down the Pistons in '90 imo[/SIZE]. Jordan had an all-star Pippen who was beasting in playoffs, Grant who had developed nicely and a decent team around him. Pippen's health was a factor in game 7 but if Jordan even shows up for one road game in that series (specifically first two games where he shot 17/43, while Grant and Pippen played pretty well...Pippen averaged 17 ppg on 50% over the two games and Grant had 17/9 in game 2, and they held Pistons to just 86 pts), the series possibly could have been over in 6.
Faketal strikes again.:lol :roll: