Your opinion on having concealed handguns on a college campus?

[Hawker]

There's legislation in Texas that may be passed to allow this. Personally, I think it should pass because I believe in the constitution.

This law only allows concealed handgun license (CHL) owners to own a gun on campus.

People may argue that they don't want to be on campus with students that have guns but they walk off-campus all the time and there are people that have guns. It's a faulty argument. Criminals are going to get a gun regardless. CHL owners are more than likely not going to be the ones going on a shooting rampage. I can't think of any school shooters that had CHLs

[-primetime-]

you are talking about those 21+ in age that took the classes and all that to make them legal correct?

interesting...

honestly, I don't know how I feel about it right now...

It seems both rasional and crazy at the same time...

[CasterL]

the idea of a kid strolling around campus packing a nine is not a good one 2 me

[Hawker]

the idea of a kid strolling around campus packing a nine is not a good one 2 me

Same here.

But this person isnt a "kid."

He is a CHL owner who has gone through classes, shooting practices etc.

CHL owners are 5% less likely to be a criminal. I wish I could find the link but I read in our school newspaper that out of the 75,000 felonies in Texas only 175 were CHL owners. I'm not sure if any of the 175 were related to a gun though.

[Hawker]

The only thing this bill changes is the location of where you can carry. The people that would be able to carry a gun on campus are ALREADY carrying a gun off-campus. Keep that in mind.

[-primetime-]

Same here.

But this person isnt a "kid."

He is a CHL owner who has gone through classes, shooting practices etc.

CHL owners are 5% less likely to be a criminal. I wish I could find the link but I read in our school newspaper that out of the 75,000 felonies in Texas only 175 were CHL owners. I'm not sure if any of the 175 were related to a gun though.
I am no math wiz but wouldn't that be like 1,005% less likely?

5% isn't that much at all dude...

[CasterL]

im not familiar with gun laws and stuff over there, but this just sound ridiculous. i get that its been so long that the public have had acces to firearms, that it would be near impossible to go back now, but this seems to much. what is a chl anyway, some type of course(i actually dont know btw)? and i could imagine there would be plenty of dikhead 21+year olds who would happily take a course in order to roll around college with the blix

[Clifton]

Your opinion on having concealed handguns on a college campus?
Absolutely not.


Personally, I think it should pass because I believe in the constitution.
Lots of people believe in the constitution. Lots of very anti-gun people believe in the constitution. And the bill of rights even. So can you expand on that please?


People may argue that they don't want to be on campus with students that have guns but they walk off-campus all the time and there are people that have guns. It's a faulty argument.
First, I think you just kind of made that argument up. Second, why is it faulty?

[Hawker]

im not familiar with gun laws and stuff over there, but this just sound ridiculous. i get that its been so long that the public have had acces to firearms, that it would be near impossible to go back now, but this seems to much. what is a chl anyway, some type of course(i actually dont know btw)? and i could imagine there would be plenty of dikhead 21+year olds who would happily take a course in order to roll around college with the blix

lol stop posting in this topic. If you wouldve read the OP, I said what a CHL was.

You really think someone who wants to shoot a school is going to go through a 10-hour course plus testing plus shooting practice?

[Hawker]

Absolutely not.


Lots of people believe in the constitution. Lots of very anti-gun people believe in the constitution. And the bill of rights even. So can you expand on that please?


First, I think you just kind of made that argument up. Second, why is it faulty?

No, I didnt. That's what people are using as their argument. It's faulty because being on-campus doesnt make you want to shoot people more than being off-campus.

[wTFaMonkey]

I believe each University can make the ruling instead of having the state or federal government deciding. I feel that it should pass IMO.

[CasterL]

lol stop posting in this topic. If you wouldve read the OP, I said what a CHL was.

You really think someone who wants to shoot a school is going to go through a 10-hour course plus testing plus shooting practice?

my bad, this just seems another move in the wrong direction. although il take that back when one of theese guys with a chl hots up another asian on attempted massacre

[White Chocolate]

There's legislation in Texas that may be passed to allow this. Personally, I think it should pass because I believe in the constitution.

This law only allows concealed handgun license (CHL) owners to own a gun on campus.

People may argue that they don't want to be on campus with students that have guns but they walk off-campus all the time and there are people that have guns. It's a faulty argument. Criminals are going to get a gun regardless. CHL owners are more than likely not going to be the ones going on a shooting rampage. I can't think of any school shooters that had CHLs


That's the argument no one wants to hear. I believe in the constitution as well. The constitution says we have the right to bear arms(only freedom of speech is listed before that). If we are not allowed to bear arms in our own homes, criminals know this and they will attack a home knowing there will be little to no repercussions. Now, if they know a homeowner is armed, they will think twice.


As for the guns on campus, as long as the person has a carry permit, it should be allowed. If this was allowed at VT, we wouldn't have had 30+ dead people.

[Clifton]

No, I didnt. That's what people are using as their argument.
ok. That particular argument may be being put forth, and that particular argument may be faulty. But if you really want to justify your opinion, you would be more convincing if you took the best form of the argument the other side could make, and showing that to be a faulty argument. Then there's nothing they can really say.


It's faulty because being on-campus doesnt make you want to shoot people more than being off-campus.
mm.. I think you may be missing the point here. The point is not: what are these people going to do with their guns. At least the way I see it. The point is: how does it affect the atmosphere of a college to know that the guy in the dorm next to you might have a gun? A college campus is a very insular community. It's where we stick for four years all our young adults in their absolutely most hormone-crazed phase of life and hope that in that time they sort out who they are so they can contribute to society when they get out. To allow guns in that kind of environment ... I'm having trouble putting this clearly but do you see where I'm going here? College is like a sterile training camp for life. Everyone there is ages 18-25 and middle or upper-middle class. It's several thousand young, wild, intelligent kids with good teeth. What do they need guns for?

A college campus is, also, pretty much the safest place you can be, as I'm sure you know. Every campus I know of has a real police force. Emergency buttons every few hundred yards. People always strolling about in groups. You rarely find yourself alone. If you do happen to go off-campus, which most students actually don't, (unless they live off-campus, in which case why on earth would they need a gun on-campus?) the surrounding area is rarely crime intensive, and if it is, people rarely go off-campus alone. There's no use for a gun and a gun is a troubling thing to have around, and if you don't think so, hey- I don't either. But many people do, especially young, upper-middle class sheltered kids, which are primarily what compose student bodies.

I don't even think pro-gun folks want this. What if a kid accidentally shot himself or a friend while drunk? An upper-middle class college kid I mean? It would positively dominate the news. College campuses are a sacred space to Americans. Imagine you gave birth to a kid. Imagine you'd seen said kid every day for 18 years and all of a sudden he's off to college ... you will be at least a little bit anxious, trust me. You want to know for certain he's safe. How likely are you to send him to a school that allows people, even qualified people, to have a gun on them on campus?

I'm practically babbling, but I suppose that is how I get when something feels so obvious and yet I'm forced to explain or justify it. Meh.

[Cannonball]

so much rational thinking going on in this thread. I agree with wtf tho the university should decide.

[Hawker]

I believe each University can make the ruling instead of having the state or federal government deciding. I feel that it should pass IMO.

No university would pass this then.

[Cannonball]

ok. That particular argument may be being put forth, and that particular argument may be faulty. But if you really want to justify your opinion, you would be more convincing if you took the best form of the argument the other side could make, and showing that to be a faulty argument. Then there's nothing they can really say.


mm.. I think you may be missing the point here. The point is not: what are these people going to do with their guns. At least the way I see it. The point is: how does it affect the atmosphere of a college to know that the guy in the dorm next to you might have a gun? A college campus is a very insular community. It's where we stick for four years all our young adults in their absolutely most hormone-crazed phase of life and hope that in that time they sort out who they are so they can contribute to society when they get out. To allow guns in that kind of environment ... I'm having trouble putting this clearly but do you see where I'm going here? College is like a sterile training camp for life. Everyone there is ages 18-25 and middle or upper-middle class. It's several thousand young, wild, intelligent kids with good teeth. What do they need guns for?

A college campus is, also, pretty much the safest place you can be, as I'm sure you know. Every campus I know of has a real police force. Emergency buttons every few hundred yards. People always strolling about in groups. You rarely find yourself alone. If you do happen to go off-campus, which most students actually don't, (unless they live off-campus, in which case why on earth would they need a gun on-campus?) the surrounding area is rarely crime intensive, and if it is, people rarely go off-campus alone. There's no use for a gun and a gun is a troubling thing to have around, and if you don't think so, hey- I don't either. But many people do, especially young, upper-middle class sheltered kids, which are primarily what compose student bodies.

I don't even think pro-gun folks want this. What if a kid accidentally shot himself or a friend while drunk? An upper-middle class college kid I mean? It would positively dominate the news. College campuses are a sacred space to Americans. Imagine you gave birth to a kid. Imagine you'd seen said kid every day for 18 years and all of a sudden he's off to college ... you will be at least a little bit anxious, trust me. You want to know for certain he's safe. How likely are you to send him to a school that allows people, even qualified people, to have a gun on them on campus?

I'm practically babbling, but I suppose that is how I get when something feels so obvious and yet I'm forced to explain or justify it. Meh.
Why because there are psycho freaks out there who like to shoot up class rooms? If that coward knows that cannonball and hawker are strapped he's gonna give it a second thought.

level the playing field so to speak. most idiots aren't going to take the time and energy to get a concealed weapons permit. The only people who are gonna do it are gun guys like myself... and people like us know how powerful these tools are... I've been raised to respect guns like they are meant to be respected and pretty much 99% who carry also respect weapons.

[Cannonball]

No university would pass this then.
even yours?

[Tainted Sword]

Why the f*ck would guns be needed on a school campus? This is beyond idiotic.

[KeylessEntry]

Why because there are psycho freaks out there who like to shoot up class rooms? If that coward knows that cannonball and hawker are strapped he's gonna give it a second thought.

level the playing field so to speak. most idiots aren't going to take the time and energy to get a concealed weapons permit. The only people who are gonna do it are gun guys like myself... and people like us know how powerful these tools are... I've been raised to respect guns like they are meant to be respected and pretty much 99% who carry also respect weapons.

As a college student, I am strongly opposed to guns on campus for a variety of reasons, but Cannonball brings up one of them here. The thought of Cannonball and Hawker "strapped" in the classroom is a lot more scary to me than the chance of a school shooting.

Another reason I am against guns on campus can be summed up with one word: ALCOHOL. Almost everybody on college gets drunk and makes bad decisions, and guns + alcohol is an accident waiting to happen.

I do support armed security guards and police on campus.

[Clifton]

the university should decide.
I'm not sure that I agree with you, but if the university were to decide I'd be pretty surprised to see that university allow firearms on campus. There's no pressure that I know of to do so, and since universities primarily exist to make money (this is an attack levied on them, and not totally unfairly, by the same people who are pro-gun), why would they risk parents not letting their children attend a university because they're scared they'll get shot? They would gain nothing and could lose a lot. Lose their best students come to think of it: if a student who has demonstrated a lot of promise has a lot of schools to choose from, how likely is it that he chooses the one in which his roommate might be packing?

I don't really have an opinion on gun-control one way or the other. I grew up around guns and know how to handle one, but they never really captured my imagination I guess you could say. I don't think there's anything wrong with guns for sport. I'm not so sure about handguns for civilians. But handguns on a college campus? That's easy. It's rare an issue is this easy. At least, again, I can see no real case to be made for them.

[Hawker]

even yours?

Well, there is a student referendum right now online. I voted in favor but do you really think they are gonna listen to the students?

[Hawker]

As a college student, I am strongly opposed to guns on campus for a variety of reasons, but Cannonball brings up one of them here. The thought of Cannonball and Hawker "strapped" in the classroom is a lot more scary to me than the chance of a school shooting.

I do support armed security guards and police on campus.

Yet you probably walk in public places everyday where people hold weapons. (Not sure the rules in california)

[Bean]

Only in Texas.

[White Chocolate]

Why the f*ck would guns be needed on a school campus? This is beyond idiotic.


In today's day and age, another VT is not out of the question. Criminals will get guns regardless. When you limit the public from owning and carrying guns, the criminals win. They know no one can stop them, which is why they go on those shooting sprees. If Cho was at a school where carrying guns was permitted, he would have gotten popped within 10 seconds.

[Cannonball]

I'm not sure that I agree with you, but if the university were to decide I'd be pretty surprised to see that university allow firearms on campus. There's no pressure that I know of to do so, and since universities primarily exist to make money (this is an attack levied on them, and not totally unfairly, by the same people who are pro-gun), why would they risk parents not letting their children attend a university because they're scared they'll get shot? They would gain nothing and could lose a lot. Lose their best students come to think of it: if a student who has demonstrated a lot of promise has a lot of schools to choose from, how likely is it that he chooses the one in which his roommate might be packing?

I don't really have an opinion on gun-control one way or the other. I grew up around guns and know how to handle one, but they never really captured my imagination I guess you could say. I don't think there's anything wrong with guns for sport. I'm not so sure about handguns for civilians. But handguns on a college campus? That's easy. It's rare an issue is this easy. At least, again, I can see no real case to be made for them.
or maybe the parents will use there heads and think for a second?

hmm would I rather have a few students who take the time to get a permit carrying or would I rather have some gangsta's who pack mainly for show and don't use logic when using a hand gun. mainly because they aren't trained. you're never going to stop the gangstas and psychos from carrying guns but you can at least let the normal guy have a shot "no pun intended" the mere presence of guns actually prevents a lot of crime. are you really going to try and mug a guy who you know carry's a piece?

[wTFaMonkey]

No university would pass this then.

Exactly!

who would?

[KeylessEntry]

Yet you probably walk in public places everyday where people hold weapons. (Not sure the rules in california)

I dont see how this is relevant.

[-primetime-]

the fact is that there are plenty of full grown adults 30+ in age that attend college...

If they are legal gun owners then I am not so sure that they should have to leave thier gun at home when they go to school...


I am still torn on it, but I don't think it is a ridiculous topic or anything...


also I am wondering if people are confusing me with Hawk because of our mavs avys...:oldlol:

[White Chocolate]

I dont see how this is relevant.


Plenty of people carry weapons illegally. The law abiding citizen is at a huge disadvatage. It's very relevant because if the law abiding student is able to carry, someone contemplating shooting up Hawky's school will think twice.

[White Chocolate]

also I am wondering if people are confusing me with Hawk because of our mavs avys...:oldlol:


I did at first. Thought I was losing my mind. :oldlol:

[Clifton]

Why because there are psycho freaks out there who like to shoot up class rooms? If that coward knows that cannonball and hawker are strapped he's gonna give it a second thought.
Um... again like I said, college campuses might be the safest places in the world that aren't specifically "heavily protected." There's always a chance the one-in-a-million happens, but a school shooting on a college campus truly is one of the most uncommon things that has ever happened. I don't have the statistics in front of me but I bet you you're something like 100 times more likely to get hit by lightning than shot on a college campus.


level the playing field so to speak. most idiots aren't going to take the time and energy to get a concealed weapons permit. The only people who are gonna do it are gun guys like myself... and people like us know how powerful these tools are... I've been raised to respect guns like they are meant to be respected and pretty much 99% who carry also respect weapons.
I grant that you know how to handle a weapon. And that virtually everyone with a concealed carry permit knows how to handle a weapon and is responsible with it. But the "leveling the playing field" thing I'm not so sure of. It creates tension that a college campus has no need for. Let's assume every human being were responsible and knew how to handle a weapon. Now let's give every human being on earth a gun. I think you can see the problem in that: things would be tense. One guy is having an especially bad day, makes a bad decision, there could be a shootout in the Smithsonian tomorrow. But I'm reductio-ing you. I still believe though that there is no playing field to level on a college campus, and that to add a gun into the equation creates needless tension and worry and is in nobody's best interest and serves no good and the college that does this would lose money so it will never happen anyway so it's all kind of moot.

[Cannonball]

As a college student, I am strongly opposed to guns on campus for a variety of reasons, but Cannonball brings up one of them here. The thought of Cannonball and Hawker "strapped" in the classroom is a lot more scary to me than the chance of a school shooting.

Another reason I am against guns on campus can be summed up with one word: ALCOHOL. Almost everybody on college gets drunk and makes bad decisions, and guns + alcohol is an accident waiting to happen.

I do support armed security guards and police on campus.
you're such a ***. So trusting of everything they want you to trust the police the government. you love it all.. baaa baaa. ya why should we citizens have to do anything for ourselves??/ no no that would be horrible let the government/police etc etc do it.

and regardless you don't know me. you don't know how i act. or more importantly react. You would be on your knees trying to blow me (i know you're a queer, stop holding it in)... after some psycho coward tried to shoot up the classroom and I put two in his chest instead of him standing there filling every one full of lead.

[Hawker]

Cannonball, dont name call please. Let's keep this name-call free. I wouldnt mind you carrying a gun because you have experience with weapons. I think I'll get a CHL but before I do, I'll do my research on it.

[Cannonball]

Um... again like I said, college campuses might be the safest places in the world that aren't specifically "heavily protected." There's always a chance the one-in-a-million happens, but a school shooting on a college campus truly is one of the most uncommon things that has ever happened. I don't have the statistics in front of me but I bet you you're something like 100 times more likely to get hit by lightning than shot on a college campus.


I grant that you know how to handle a weapon. And that virtually everyone with a concealed carry permit knows how to handle a weapon and is responsible with it. But the "leveling the playing field" thing I'm not so sure of. It creates tension that a college campus has no need for. Let's assume every human being were responsible and knew how to handle a weapon. Now let's give every human being on earth a gun. I think you can see the problem in that: things would be tense. One guy is having an especially bad day, makes a bad decision, there could be a shootout in the Smithsonian tomorrow. But I'm reductio-ing you. I still believe though that there is no playing field to level on a college campus, and that to add a gun into the equation creates needless tension and worry and is in nobody's best interest and serves no good and the college that does this would lose money so it will never happen anyway so it's all kind of moot.
It's not that hard to understand?

Ok let me put it this way. Do you think right now there are no guns on campuses across the US??

if so I guess I'm done talking...

but lets say you use you head and answer yes... Now if there are guns on campuses who has them? hmm people who are breaking the law...

You will never stop a criminal from breaking the law and bringing guns places he shouldn't... only thing gun laws accomplish are to take away the power from the people and to put it in the hands of government/police who will "protect" us

[-primetime-]

I did at first. Thought I was losing my mind. :oldlol:
f*ck...

do i really have to change my avy over this...

tryin to "rep Mavs" damn it...:D

[Cannonball]

Cannonball, dont name call please. Let's keep this name-call free. I wouldnt mind you carrying a gun because you have experience with weapons. I think I'll get a CHL but before I do, I'll do my research on it.
it's actually hard to get one in PA. in Texas I'm sure it's much easier...


but ya that guy calls me names all the time. it's a mutual hate thing don't worry about it.

[Hawker]

it's actually hard to get one in PA. in Texas I'm sure it's much easier...


but ya that guy calls me names all the time. it's a mutual hate thing don't worry about it.

k..go on about it then

[Hawker]

f*ck...

do i really have to change my avy over this...

tryin to "rep Mavs" damn it...:D

I'll change it if you would like.

[Fallguy20]

I know alot of dick college kids who I honestly dont want to have a gun on campus, but the argument that if everybody has a gun then there will be less violence also rings true... problem is, I dont think that applies in the college setting with young dumb kids with testosterone and suger coursing through their veins. Ive seen kids during finals week snap, I dont want to see them snap with guns at their fingertips.

How about only CHG owners over age 24+ allowed to have a gun on campus? For some reason, that seems to eliminate alot of chance to me by taking a heafty load of the idiots out of the equation.

[White Chocolate]

it's actually hard to get one in PA. in Texas I'm sure it's much easier...


but ya that guy calls me names all the time. it's a mutual hate thing don't worry about it.


Even harder in NYC. My dad is a former undercover cop. Took him a year just to get it approved. If he was living in upstate NY or Long Island, he could have had his gun registered in 30 days tops.

[Cannonball]

Plenty of people carry weapons illegally. The law abiding citizen is at a huge disadvatage. It's very relevant because if the law abiding student is able to carry, someone contemplating shooting up Hawky's school will think twice.
when did you wake up man?

I remember you being real sheepish like but I like your new found logic :cheers:

[KeylessEntry]

Plenty of people carry weapons illegally. The law abiding citizen is at a huge disadvatage. It's very relevant because if the law abiding student is able to carry, someone contemplating shooting up Hawky's school will think twice.

I disagree. There are already armed security guards on campuses and they obviously have not been successful in preventing all school shootings. Basically everybody who shoots up a school ends up commiting suicide after its over anyway, so I dont think they very are afraid of dying or being shot (why else would they open fire in a public place?). I think putting more guns out there is going to cause more problems than it solves.

We are talking about putting guns in the hands of STUDENTS. Have you met any college students lately? lets toss a hypothetical situation out there:

Someone in a classroom starts killing people, all the ccw students whip out their guns and shoot back. Now you have between 2 and 5 different 18-23 year olds all scared out of their minds shooting handguns around a classroom. Do you think they are all going to be able to determine who was the original shooter and who is a law abiding ccw holder? Do you trust their aim? Do you trust their intelligence and decision making? I simply dont trust someone like Cannonball to make a rational decision when they are sitting in a classroom full of screaming people and bullets flying all over the place.

The bottom line is: Guns belong in the hands of trained professionals, and taking a 10 hour gun safety course is nothing like the months or years of training that police officers receive to deal with these situations.

[-primetime-]

I'll change it if you would like.
ehhh...

f*ck it...

your opinions are not far off from mine at all...if they think I am you then I don't care...

unless of course, you just want to change your avy...

[White Chocolate]

when did you wake up man?

I remember you being real sheepish like but I like your new found logic :cheers:


Brain surgery? :confusedshrug:

[Hawker]

I disagree. There are already armed security guards on campuses and they obviously have not been successful in stopping all school shootings. Basically everybody who shoots up a school ends up commiting suicide after its over anyway, so I dont think they very are afraid of dying or being shot (why else would they open fire in a public place?). I think putting more guns out there is going to cause more problems than it solves.

We are talking about putting guns in the hands of STUDENTS. Have you met any college students lately? lets toss a hypothetical situation out there:

Someone in a classroom starts killing people, all the ccw students whip out their guns and shoot back. Now you have between 2 and 5 different 18-23 year olds all scared out of their minds shooting handguns around a classroom. Do you think they are all going to be able to determine who was the original shooter and who is a law abiding ccw holder? Do you trust their aim? Do you trust their intelligence and decision making? I simply dont trust someone like Cannonball to make a rational decision when they are sitting in a classroom with bullets flying all over the place.

The bottom line is: Guns belong in the hands of trained professionals, and taking a 10 hour gun safety course is nothing like the years of training that police officers receive to deal with these situations.

This is a completely unrealistic situation. I knew someone was going to bring up a BS story like this. And yes, criminals probably arent scared of being shot but if they kill 5 instead of 20 due to a CHL owner taking action, that's a good thing. That's more likely to happen than a bunch of guys trying to be jason bourne/james bond/jack bauer.

[KeylessEntry]

This is a completely unrealistic situation. I knew someone was going to bring up a BS story like this. And yes, criminals probably arent scared of being shot but if they kill 5 instead of 20 due to a CHL owner taking action, that's a good thing.

I dont think its unrealistic at all. Once all the shooting starts, how can you tell who are the good CHL owners and who is the bad guy shooter? How will the CHL owners who are nearby and come running in to the classroom to be the hero know who is good and who is bad? If a school shooting occurs at a school where students are allowed to carry weapons, I would be very worried that a few CHL owners would actually kill eachother in the confusion.

[Hawker]

I dont think its unrealistic at all. Once all the shooting starts, how can you tell who are the good CHL owners and who is the bad guy shooter? How will the CHL owners who are nearby and come running in to the classroom to be the hero know who is good and who is bad? If a school shooting occurs at a school where students are allowed to carry weapons, I would be very worried that a few CHL owners would actually kill eachother in the confusion.

It's unrealistic dude. And if it's a classroom, the original shooter is gonna stand out. A gun firing is pretty damn loud, everyone looks and everyone sees who the shooter is. Not hard...

A CHL owner isnt just gonna run in there Matrix style and try and kill him.

[Cannonball]

I disagree. There are already armed security guards on campuses and they obviously have not been successful in preventing all school shootings. Basically everybody who shoots up a school ends up commiting suicide after its over anyway, so I dont think they very are afraid of dying or being shot (why else would they open fire in a public place?). I think putting more guns out there is going to cause more problems than it solves.

We are talking about putting guns in the hands of STUDENTS. Have you met any college students lately? lets toss a hypothetical situation out there:

Someone in a classroom starts killing people, all the ccw students whip out their guns and shoot back. Now you have between 2 and 5 different 18-23 year olds all scared out of their minds shooting handguns around a classroom. Do you think they are all going to be able to determine who was the original shooter and who is a law abiding ccw holder? Do you trust their aim? Do you trust their intelligence and decision making? I simply dont trust someone like Cannonball to make a rational decision when they are sitting in a classroom with bullets flying all over the place.

The bottom line is: Guns belong in the hands of trained professionals, and taking a 10 hour gun safety course is nothing like the years of training that police officers receive to deal with these situations.


You sir are wrong.

They turn the gun on them self in most cases immediately after someone has brought a opposing gun into the situation. These guys are cowards there only power is the gun. when someone else has a gun they feel just a small and scared as they are without it. The quicker a opposing gun gets to the scene of these shootings the quicker it ends.. look it up.

trained professionals... lol I've prob shot more bullets than you're typical rookie cop already in my life... now have I ever been trained in combat situations?? of course not but regardless it's not that hard to figure out what to do. relax you muscles point and shoot. and regardless I doubt it would come to that because there is no way in hell these cowards picks a class where a person with a gun is sitting... it just won't happen. they feel empowered by the gun. because they are small and weak.. if someone else has a weapon that feeling of empowerment isn't there. they would pick a class where the opposing force isn't present.

[White Chocolate]

I disagree. There are already armed security guards on campuses and they obviously have not been successful in preventing all school shootings. Basically everybody who shoots up a school ends up commiting suicide after its over anyway, so I dont think they very are afraid of dying or being shot (why else would they open fire in a public place?). I think putting more guns out there is going to cause more problems than it solves.


Fair enough. But, if it's you and you come across someone like Cho, you have to turn your back, run, and hope he doesn't shoot you. Now if you're armed, you can pop him, problem solved. The odds of that happening is slim to none, but no one fights with fists anymore. If this was the 1950s, it would be different. Criminals carry guns regardless. If we cater to them, we are at the disadvantage, not them.


We are talking about putting guns in the hands of STUDENTS. Have you met any college students lately? lets toss a hypothetical situation out there:

Someone in a classroom starts killing people, all the ccw students whip out their guns and shoot back. Now you have between 2 and 5 different 18-23 year olds all scared out of their minds shooting handguns around a classroom. Do you think they are all going to be able to determine who was the original shooter and who is a law abiding ccw holder? Do you trust their aim? Do you trust their intelligence and decision making? I simply dont trust someone like Cannonball to make a rational decision when they are sitting in a classroom with bullets flying all over the place.


If you're going to allow them to carry guns, there should be required training. In your classroom scenario, if one person is armed, you can have 20 dead people. Odds are everyone will know who the original shooter is. If 3 people fire back and kill them, you'll probably have no more than 5 people dead compared to 20. Again, why do we have to cater to criminals?



The bottom line is: Guns belong in the hands of trained professionals, and taking a 10 hour gun safety course is nothing like the years of training that police officers receive to deal with these situations.


Not disagreeing with that, but guns are treated like candy today. If we are not allowed to carry them, what happens should you come across an armed criminal? If someone is pointing a gun at me, I should have the right to be armed and blow that mother f*cker away. Instead, I'm forced to turn my back, run, and pray that he misses me. There's both sides to this argument and both have valid points, but I don't feel safe if I can't arm myself. My cousin was murdered. If she was armed, perhaps she'd be alive.

[KeylessEntry]

It's unrealistic dude. And if it's a classroom, the original shooter is gonna stand out. A gun firing is pretty damn loud, everyone looks and everyone sees who the shooter is. Not hard...

A CHL owner isnt just gonna run in there Matrix style and try and kill him.

Its not unrealistic at all. You have obviously never been around a real shooting. You clearly have no idea how much panic and confusion it causes.

[Fallguy20]

Not disagreeing with that, but guns are treated like candy today. If we are not allowed to carry them, what happens should you come across an armed criminal? If someone is pointing a gun at me, I should have the right to be armed and blow that mother f*cker away. Instead, I'm forced to turn my back, run, and pray that he misses me. There's both sides to this argument and both have valid points, but I don't feel safe if I can't arm myself. My cousin was murdered. If she was armed, perhaps she'd be alive.

shit, were dealing with an idealistic crusader here... anyone trying to argue an opposing side cannot win at this point.

/thread

[Cannonball]

It's unrealistic dude. And if it's a classroom, the original shooter is gonna stand out. A gun firing is pretty damn loud, everyone looks and everyone sees who the shooter is. Not hard...

A CHL owner isnt just gonna run in there Matrix style and try and kill him.
very true... if I heard a few shots. do you really think I'm gonna go running straight for the class room and go blazzing in without looking through the window and seeing whats going on first!

gotta assess the threat... if they guy is up and still shooting students than he's a shooter... after someone has neutralized the threat they would obviously lower their weapon... plus say you have multiple people who are carrying in one room they are all going to pointing their weapons at the same target

[Hawker]

Its not unrealistic at all. You have obviously never been around a real shooting. You clearly have no idea how much panic and confusion it causes.

Ok. Has that situation ever happened before b/c I know for a fact college shootings have happened.

[Cannonball]

Its not unrealistic at all. You have obviously never been around a real shooting. You clearly have no idea how much panic and confusion it causes.
we know how much pain it causes and that is exactly why we want to prevent it!

give us law abiding citizens guns to protect ourselves!!!

[Cannonball]

shit, were dealing with an idealistic crusader here... anyone trying to argue an opposing side cannot win at this point.

/thread
not due that fact that he is a "idealistic crusader" just due to the fact that it makes no ****ing sense to take guns away from us law abiding citizens.


sorry about your cousin though.

[KeylessEntry]

Fair enough. But, if it's you and you come across someone like Cho, you have to turn your back, run, and hope he doesn't shoot you. Now if you're armed, you can pop him, problem solved. The odds of that happening is slim to none, but no one fights with fists anymore. If this was the 1950s, it would be different. Criminals carry guns regardless. If we cater to them, we are at the disadvantage, not them.


Yeah I might be at a disadvantage if I have to run from Cho, but on the other hand when I pull out my concealed gun and fire back at him, whats to stop another concealed weapon carrier to pull out their gun and shoot me down? How will they know who started the shooting? They are going to hear gunshots, see the gun in my hand, fire first and ask questions later. Also, criminals will always carry guns, and letting people take concealed weapons to school will certainly not change that.




If you're going to allow them to carry guns, there should be required training. In your classroom scenario, if one person is armed, you can have 20 dead people. Odds are everyone will know who the original shooter is. If 3 people fire back and kill them, you'll probably have no more than 5 people dead compared to 20. Again, why do we have to cater to criminals?

If the person has enough training (IE police officer or security guard) I would not be opposed to them carrying a weapon, but we are talking about a serious amount of training. Going to the gun range and firing a few thousand rounds and then talking about gun safety around a table for 10 hours is simply not ample training to handle a situation like a school shooting.





Not disagreeing with that, but guns are treated like candy today. If we are not allowed to carry them, what happens should you come across an armed criminal? If someone is pointing a gun at me, I should have the right to be armed and blow that mother f*cker away. Instead, I'm forced to turn my back, run, and pray that he misses me. There's both sides to this argument and both have valid points, but I don't feel safe if I can't arm myself. My cousin was murdered. If she was armed, perhaps she'd be alive.

I am not saying that people should not be allowed to carry guns, I am saying STUDENTS should not be allowed to to carry guns on CAMPUS. There is a huge difference there. How many criminals do you run in to on the average day on a college campus? Nobody is forcing anybody to go to a college that doesnt allow guns. I think if you dont like the gun rules on campus, you should go to an online school like cannonball and you can carry your gun with you all day long. I am very sorry to hear about your cousin, but did it happen on a college campus?

[White Chocolate]

not due that fact that he is a "idealistic crusader" just due to the fact that it makes no ****ing sense to take guns away from us law abiding citizens.


sorry about your cousin though.


Last month was the 12 year anniversary. Her kids were 4 and 2 at the time. She was killed by her boyfriend(father of her kids). He broke into her house and smashed her head to pieces with a rolling pin. She had no gun and was too far away to get a knife. Last I heard, he's due to get out of jail in '14.

[Younggrease]

There's legislation in Texas that may be passed to allow this. Personally, I think it should pass because I believe in the constitution.



It dont understand this...The second amendment of the constitution is one of the debatable clauses ever written. So do you have a reason to believe in that interpretation of the second amendment...

[Fallguy20]

just due to the fact that it makes no ****ing sense to take guns away from us law abiding citizens.
No, your logic isnt sombody elses. If your logic was everybody elses, it would already be in place, no wouldnt it?


It dont understand this...The second amendment of the constitution is one of the debatable clauses ever written. So do you have a reason to believe in that interpretation of the second amendment...

ha... Family Guy: "Hey, do you think we should clean up that second ammendment?" "Na man, how could anybody misunderstand the intent to be able to hang bear arms on their walls?"

:hammerhead:

[Cannonball]

No, your logic isnt sombody elses. If your logic was everybody elses, it would already be in place, no wouldnt it?
ya if you believe that the people running our country are truly trying to serve the peoples interest... and if you do well just move along.

[Cannonball]

Last month was the 12 year anniversary. Her kids were 4 and 2 at the time. She was killed by her boyfriend(father of her kids). He broke into her house and smashed her head to pieces with a rolling pin. She had no gun and was too far away to get a knife. Last I heard, he's due to get out of jail in '14.
how did he not get life??

[White Chocolate]

Yeah I might be at a disadvantage if I have to run from Cho, but on the other hand when I pull out my concealed gun and fire back at him, whats to stop another concealed weapon carrier to pull out their gun and shoot me down? How will they know who started the shooting? They are going to hear gunshots, see the gun in my hand, fire first and ask questions later. Also, criminals will always carry guns, and letting people take concealed weapons to school will certainly not change that.


People will know which psycho started shooting. It's not one of those things where the people will go "Was it Mike or Steve that started it?" These psychos stand out long before the first shot is even fired. If anything happens, there is a 99% chance everyone will know who is up to no good.



If the person has enough training (IE police officer or security guard) I would not be opposed to them carrying a weapon, but we are talking about a serious amount of training. Going to the gun range and firing a few thousand rounds and then talking about gun safety around a table for 10 hours is simply not ample training to handle a situation like a school shooting.


This is a case of determining how much training is enough. It's a debatable topic. Regardless, someone that purchased and obtained a license legally will have more training than someone that bought it on 123rd Street in Harlem for $300.



I am not saying that people should not be allowed to carry guns, I am saying STUDENTS should not be allowed to to carry guns on CAMPUS. There is a huge difference there. How many criminals do you run in to on the average day on a college campus? Nobody is forcing anybody to go to a college that doesnt allow guns. I think if you dont like the gun rules on campus, you should go to an online school like cannonball and you can carry your gun with you all day long. I am very sorry to hear about your cousin, but did it happen on a college campus?


These days, you never know when or where someone will explode and go on a rampage. It can happen at school, the park, Madison Square Garden, the supermarket. Practically anywhere. As for my cousin, she was home.

[White Chocolate]

how did he not get life??


Won at his parole hearing. 25 to life, you serve 17 years. He's out in 2014.

[Younggrease]

ha... Family Guy: "Hey, do you think we should clean up that second ammendment?" "Na man, how could anybody misunderstand the intent to be able to hang bear arms on their walls?"

:hammerhead:

maybe you shouldnt rely on the family guy for your interpretation of the second amendment.

[Fallguy20]

ya if you believe that the people running our country are truly trying to serve the peoples interest... and if you do well just move along.

:oldlol:

How old are you again? Obama isnt trying to take away our guns, the government really isnt just out to screw its people (mostly) and I doubt that in the event that the government was going to implement martial law and/or opress the american people that they would be too sure of their own abilities to care enough about concealed weapons on JUST SKEWL GROUNDS.

sorry, i just dont see it


maybe you shouldnt rely on the family guy for your interpretation of the second amendment.
Dont kid yourself... as somebody from Idaho, our local militia meets and pulls weapons checks every 6 months. Im very serious about my own security, which may in fact be why I really dont want everybody else to have a gun... its mostly because I dont trust you, not because I want to spit on your constitutional rights.

:D

[KeylessEntry]

People will know which psycho started shooting. It's not one of those things where the people will go "Was it Mike or Steve that started it?" These psychos stand out long before the first shot is even fired. If anything happens, there is a 99% chance everyone will know who is up to no good.

This is a pretty weak argument. Just because some guy looks like a depressed goth or angry gangster doesnt automatically mean they are the original shooter. There is no rule about how people with CCW permits have to look or what clothes they wear.

As someone who has experienced gun violence first hand, I can assure you that when shots fire in a public place there is panic and confusion. The average student will not be making rational decisions at this time and for these reasons I strongly disagree with what you are saying here. Once the shooting starts and the guns come out, there is no way for a person who did not see the initial shooting to know who is good and who is bad.




This is a case of determining how much training is enough. It's a debatable topic. Regardless, someone that purchased and obtained a license legally will have more training than someone that bought it on 123rd Street in Harlem for $300.

I dont see how this is relevant to the topic of students carrying guns at school. Just because you are more qualified with a gun than the average gangster does not automatically grant you the right to take it everywhere with you.




These days, you never know when or where someone will explode and go on a rampage. It can happen at school, the park, Madison Square Garden, the supermarket. Practically anywhere. As for my cousin, she was home.
You bring up a good point here, which is that you never know when or where someone will explode. A lot of people ride the emotional roller coaster when they are in college, both gun owners and non gun owners experience the same stresses at college. What makes you think that a CCW permit holder will not be the one to explode on a college campus?

[Cannonball]

Won at his parole hearing. 25 to life, you serve 17 years. He's out in 2014.
that's disgusting. i've heard of people dealing drugs that got more time...

[Cannonball]

:oldlol:

How old are you again? Obama isnt trying to take away our guns, the government really isnt just out to screw its people (mostly) and I doubt that in the event that the government was going to implement martial law and/or opress the american people that they would be too sure of their own abilities to care enough about concealed weapons on JUST SKEWL GROUNDS.

sorry, i just dont see it


Dont kid yourself... as somebody from Idaho, our local militia meets and pulls weapons checks every 6 months. Im very serious about my own security, which may in fact be why I really dont want everybody else to have a gun... its mostly because I dont trust you, not because I want to spit on your constitutional rights.

:D

Keep sleeping man... keep trusting the government....

[White Chocolate]

This is a pretty weak argument. Just because some guy looks like a depressed goth or angry gangster doesnt automatically mean they are the original shooter. There is no rule about how people with CCW permits have to look or what clothes they wear.


Cho wasn't exactly a goth, but when the incident happened, they knew it was him. There's never a rule, but people that go on shooting rampages generally show some signs of abnormal behavior before the shooting. I'm sure if you asked the VT survivors if they were surprised that it was Cho that exploded over someone else, they would have said they weren't at all shocked. Back in high school, I thought about which kids were capable of such an act. That's not to say the quarterback of the football team couldn't do it if he wanted, but it was far more likely that the quiet, depressed kid that sat in the back of class would do it.



As someone who has experienced gun violence first hand, I can assure you that when shots fire in a public place there is panic and confusion. The average student will not be making rational decisions at this time and for these reasons I strongly disagree with what you are saying here. Once the shooting starts and the guns come out, there is no way for a person who did not see the initial shooting to know who is good and who is bad.


People will panic, but they'll generally know who it is. They'd have to know who they're running from. It's about survival in that case. If I don't know who I'm running from, I could mistakenly run right towards the shooter. End result- White Chocolate is dead instead of me being alive and rambling about some mumbo jumbo here.



You bring up a good point here, which is that you never know when or where someone will explode. A lot of people ride the emotional roller coaster when they are in college, both gun owners and non gun owners experience the same stresses at college. What makes you think that a CCW permit holder will not be the one to explode on a college campus?


We all have emotional roller coasters at some point. It's all part of life. 99.9% of people work through it. Anyone can explode, but I personally don't want to be defenseless and possibly be killed because some criminal got his hands on a gun.

[Fallguy20]

Keep sleeping man... keep trusting the government....

Didnt you just read what I posted?


Dont kid yourself... as somebody from Idaho, our local militia meets and pulls weapons checks every 6 months.

Does it sound like I trust the government? Im not going to go as far as to constantly entertain Dooms conspiracy threads (though usually great reads) but by no stretch of the imagination do I not find it easy to believe that the Bush administration was apart of some of the biggest breaches of constitutionality ever, and funny enough that has me on my toes now.

Oh well, ill still take their pell grants... grudgingly, of course

[White Chocolate]

that's disgusting. i've heard of people dealing drugs that got more time...


It really is. Joel Steinberg got the same break. He killed that girl in '87, served 17, and got out in the spring of 2004. He was working for a construction company according to the NY Post at that time.

[KeylessEntry]

We all have emotional roller coasters at some point. It's all part of life. 99.9% of people work through it. Anyone can explode, but I personally don't want to be defenseless and possibly be killed because some criminal got his hands on a gun.

I think if you feel this way you should just stay away from college campuses. There are a lot of places that you arent allowed to carry a gun. You arent allowed to carry your gun inside of an airport, or inside of a sporting event like a basketball game. I dont see why having college campuses on that list is a problem.

[White Chocolate]

I think if you feel this way you should just stay away from college campuses. There are a lot of places that you arent allowed to carry a gun. You arent allowed to carry your gun inside of an airport, or inside of a sporting event like a basketball game. I dont see why having college campuses on that list is a problem.


We might as well agree to disagree. I'm not changing your view and you're not changing mine.

[KeylessEntry]

We might as well agree to disagree. I'm not changing your view and you're not changing mine.

This is true. I hear and understand your points, I simply disagree. Props for arguing like a rational adult, a rare thing in the OTC :cheers:

[Hawker]

I really hope this passes. Texas A&M will be much safer.

[Clifton]

Ok let me put it this way. Do you think right now there are no guns on campuses across the US??

if so I guess I'm done talking...

but lets say you use you head and answer yes... Now if there are guns on campuses who has them? hmm people who are breaking the law...

You will never stop a criminal from breaking the law and bringing guns places he shouldn't... only thing gun laws accomplish are to take away the power from the people and to put it in the hands of government/police who will "protect" us
Well first of all you have no way of knowing for sure that there is even one person in the entire country who illegally has a firearm on campus. You're assuming there is at least one such person, probably a sizeable few, and I'm happy to assume that with you. But you don't know. And that's the point. As long as A, nobody's shooting each other, and B, the fact that so-and-so might have a gun on campus is not on anybody's mind, things are alright. The problem is when lethal weapons start to creep into the consciousness of college students while they're on campus. The campus is no longer an innocent sacred space sterile of hard reality like it is designed to be. Now it's a place with guns on it. People don't get shot with guns very often- the effect of a gun or guns in general is largely mental.

But seriously I think there are very few guns on college campuses. Because again and this returns to my original point: what on earth would a college student do with a gun? He's essentially in a paradise where violent crime happens at an amazingly low rate and where crime and self-defense is the last thing on everybody's mind. Bring guns into the equation and that mentality changes and I suggest to you that is a disastrous thing to happen.

[SCY]

People will know which psycho started shooting. It's not one of those things where the people will go "Was it Mike or Steve that started it?" These psychos stand out long before the first shot is even fired. If anything happens, there is a 99% chance everyone will know who is up to no good.

You've got to be kidding here. You're arguing that in the event of a school shooting, everyone on campus, or even just every CHL, will all be able to automatically deduce who the shooter is? Maybe they'll hold weekly meetings to discuss likely suspects. :oldlol: College campuses are huge and not everyone knows everyone else, not even close, especially when we're talking about guys who are likely to be social outcasts. And yes, after the VT incident the small group of people that interacted with Cho were not shocked he was the perpetrator, but it's easier to say that after the fact. Not saying Cho wasn't a madman, but not everyone knew of him and perhaps suspected someone else. There's plenty of weird MFers out there and I'm sure VT has their fair share.

As for the law, I see it causing more problems than it will solve. If a CHL doesn't get a school shooter right off the bat, I can easily see a situation of mass chaos develop.

[ElPigto]

I did not read this thread, perhaps will go through it later but I would like to say that I marched to the Capitol to protest against guns on campus. It was at least 100 students, probably more. After that, we were invited into a meeting where the NRA ******* lobbyists were going to meet with representatives to discuss the bill. Soon after we sat down, a representative came down to talk to us letting the students know that the meeting was cancelled last minute.

Guns on campus can kiss my ass. I don't want to deal with students who might freak out over a grade or an overstressed student. I know classes are taken, etc etc and that people around the street walk with guns here in Texas, but by no means are the streets the same as campus. I rather feel safe with no one carrying guns rather than hundreds of students having a gun just because they are allowed to do so.

[phoenix18]

I think that everyone should have a sword.

[dnyk1337]

They should make a new law where a person can challenge someone to a duel, and if the other party accepts, all deaths related will be excused.

[Hawker]

I did not read this thread, perhaps will go through it later but I would like to say that I marched to the Capitol to protest against guns on campus. It was at least 100 students, probably more. After that, we were invited into a meeting where the NRA ******* lobbyists were going to meet with representatives to discuss the bill. Soon after we sat down, a representative came down to talk to us letting the students know that the meeting was cancelled last minute.

Guns on campus can kiss my ass. I don't want to deal with students who might freak out over a grade or an overstressed student. I know classes are taken, etc etc and that people around the street walk with guns here in Texas, but by no means are the streets the same as campus. I rather feel safe with no one carrying guns rather than hundreds of students having a gun just because they are allowed to do so.

This is another unrealistic situation. People just keep on making up BS excuses. The streets are the same on campus. Do people only freak out over grades? No. Bad example on your part.

[Randy]

This is another unrealistic situation. People just keep on making up BS excuses. The streets are the same on campus. Do people only freak out over grades? No. Bad example on your part.

As if the "it will help stop school shootings" is a logical argument... How often to school shootings happen? What are the odds that if another were to even occur that a licensed gun owner is in the vicinity to take down the shooter? Having guns legalized on school campuses because of school shootings is completely ridiculous.

More guns = more safe... :rolleyes:

[Hawker]

How often to school shootings happen? What are the odds that if another were to even occur that a licensed gun owner is in the vicinity to take down the shooter? Having guns legalized on school campuses because of school shootings is completely ridiculous.

More guns = more safe... :rolleyes:

It doesnt matter the odds. If there's a chance to decrease the amount of lives killed, that should be good enough for anyone.

Think about the people that were barracading the doors at Virginia Tech. If they were brave enough to risk their life to do that, they wouldve been brave enough to take out their gun and shoot Cho resulting in a lot less people killed.

As far as I know, people against this law are basing their arguments on made-up unrealistic BS stories that come straight out of Matrix or James Bond.

People in favor of this law are using the constitution and real situations that have actually happened.

[phoenix18]

Think about it though if every one had a gun, no one would be doing crazy **** anymore because they would get shot.

[boozehound]

There's legislation in Texas that may be passed to allow this. Personally, I think it should pass because I believe in the constitution.

This law only allows concealed handgun license (CHL) owners to own a gun on campus.

People may argue that they don't want to be on campus with students that have guns but they walk off-campus all the time and there are people that have guns. It's a faulty argument. Criminals are going to get a gun regardless. CHL owners are more than likely not going to be the ones going on a shooting rampage. I can't think of any school shooters that had CHLs
so, would you be in a campus militia? Then it might be constitutional. I dont really think it would make a difference. I personally dont care, but I do wonder how a CHL owner might handle displaying the gun to a prof who was failing him. just as a subtle reminder.

For the record, most states do not have a concealed handgun law, so what do you think in those situations?

Also, since living in texas for ~6 years, I have only ever heard of one case where CHL owners actually helped prevent a crime. and that wasnt actually on the news, but one of those america's most wanted type shows.

[boozehound]

I really hope this passes. Texas A&M will be much safer.
do you really think that? Have you ever felt unsafe on this campus? why not make the corp more active in the campus diligence instead.

[Hawker]

do you really think that? Have you ever felt unsafe on this campus? why not make the corp more active in the campus diligence instead.

I'll admit that I haven't ever felt unsafe but I'm sure people at Virginia Tech said the same thing.

I don't see what else the corps can do beside the corps escort at night thing. The corps have to go to class and do other activities during the day.

[Hawker]

so, would you be in a campus militia? Then it might be constitutional. I dont really think it would make a difference. I personally dont care, but I do wonder how a CHL owner might handle displaying the gun to a prof who was failing him. just as a subtle reminder.

For the record, most states do not have a concealed handgun law, so what do you think in those situations?

Also, since living in texas for ~6 years, I have only ever heard of one case where CHL owners actually helped prevent a crime. and that wasnt actually on the news, but one of those america's most wanted type shows.

Part of the reason why America won the revolutionary war was arming citizens resulting in guerilla warfare in favor of America and better shots.


In the end, this wont pass. And if so, universities should decide if they want to have it or not. They'll probably survey the faculty as well and an overwhemingly amount of the faculty and professors will say, "no" and it wont happen.

I don't think a CHL owner is going to be shooting up any professors.

[boozehound]

Part of the reason why America won the revolutionary war was arming citizens resulting in guerilla warfare in favor of America and better shots.


In the end, this wont pass. And if so, universities should decide if they want to have it or not. They'll probably survey the faculty as well and an overwhemingly amount of the faculty and professors will say, "no" and it wont happen.

I don't think a CHL owner is going to be shooting up any professors.
no, i dont think so either. But I could envision a situation where there is a classroom shooting and the other CHL students in the building all draw and create a confusing and potentially deadly situation where multiple unmarked citizens all have guns pulled and no one is quite sure which one is the original shooter.

[SCY]

no, i dont think so either. But I could envision a situation where there is a classroom shooting and the other CHL students in the building all draw and create a confusing and potentially deadly situation where multiple unmarked citizens all have guns pulled and no one is quite sure which one is the original shooter.

Unrealistic, dood!

[Hawker]

Unrealistic, dood!

It is unrealistic.

[SCY]

It is unrealistic.

I can see how, with the brilliant points you brought up to prove it.

[KeylessEntry]

no, i dont think so either. But I could envision a situation where there is a classroom shooting and the other CHL students in the building all draw and create a confusing and potentially deadly situation where multiple unmarked citizens all have guns pulled and no one is quite sure which one is the original shooter.

I was envisioning this exact situation when I was arguing this topic earlier, but this type of scenario is "unrealistic"

[Hawker]

I can see how, with the brilliant points you brought up to prove it.

I've brought up the points multiple times. You need to learn to read son.

You really think people that arent policeman are going to run into a room where shooting has been heard?

And plus, what basis do you have to prove that it is realistic? That type of shit only happens in movies.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

I don't agree with Hawker or Cannonball, but the situation that Boozehound created was a tad bit loony. Must be pre-planned with a stealthy f*ckin fellow as the shooter.

[ElPigto]

This is another unrealistic situation. People just keep on making up BS excuses. The streets are the same on campus. Do people only freak out over grades? No. Bad example on your part.

BS excuses!? Certainly a better excuse than a shooting might happen in my school therefore I'll be there to be a hero. Bullsh!t dawg. How many shootings have we had in Texas in campus since the one that happened here at UT? I know you probably haven't been around the mental health services department much but take it from someone who has, some people do have issues. Sure, in most situations they are just normal school stresses, or such, but occasionally freak outs do happen.

Why do you feel so unsafe at A&M without guns? We have been doing great on campus here in Texas. Most of the trends seem to be happening up north and nothing that is seen as often event to justify having people carry guns on campus. This is the reason we have campus police.

Let me guess the next argument, "Well they take long to respond, I can take care of the situation if I have a gun". What guarantees me that you are going to be rational when confronted in such a situation? What guarantees me that you have great composure and will be accurate at shooting the shooter? Tell me Hawker, I would really like to know. What happens if you shoot a student by mistake?

Sorry man, but I have no guarantees that people are going to act as heroes. I have no guarantee that only one shot will be fired and it will be over. I have no guarantees that the situation won't escalate with some fool retaliating. I have no such guarantees. I have no guarantee of survival, maybe a slightly better chance but statistics don't measure a person's accuracy, emotions, etc to accurately predict these chances increasing, hell they might decrease sometimes.

F!ck that sh!t, I been safe on campus since I been here and there is no need for me to thank gun owners to thank for that.

[KeylessEntry]

Im going to bring up another reason for banning guns on campus which is impossible to refute: ALCOHOL. A lot of people on college campuses get drunk and make bad decisions every night of the week, if there were more guns around there would just be a tragedy waiting to happen when some drunk ass takes out his gun to show it off and accidently shoots something or someone. Drunk people with guns = bad idea.

[Hawker]

BS excuses!? Certainly a better excuse than a shooting might happen in my school therefore I'll be there to be a hero. Bullsh!t dawg. How many shootings have we had in Texas in campus since the one that happened here at UT? I know you probably haven't been around the mental health services department much but take it from someone who has, some people do have issues. Sure, in most situations they are just normal school stresses, or such, but occasionally freak outs do happen.

Why do you feel so unsafe at A&M without guns? We have been doing great on campus here in Texas. Most of the trends seem to be happening up north and nothing that is seen as often event to justify having people carry guns on campus. This is the reason we have campus police.

Let me guess the next argument, "Well they take long to respond, I can take care of the situation if I have a gun". What guarantees me that you are going to be rational when confronted in such a situation? What guarantees me that you have great composure and will be accurate at shooting the shooter? Tell me Hawker, I would really like to know. What happens if you shoot a student by mistake?

Sorry man, but I have no guarantees that people are going to act as heroes. I have no guarantee that only one shot will be fired and it will be over. I have no guarantees that the situation won't escalate with some fool retaliating. I have no such guarantees. I have no guarantee of survival, maybe a slightly better chance but statistics don't measure a person's accuracy, emotions, etc to accurately predict these chances increasing, hell they might decrease sometimes.

F!ck that sh!t, I been safe on campus since I been here and there is no need for me to thank gun owners to thank for that.

People that have mental problems cant get CHLs. The ones with mental problems are going to be the ones that shoot people though and with the possibility of a CHL owner in that class being able to protect himself and the rest of the class is something that's worth having this passed.

One of the people that rushed Witman was an armed civilian. It is funny though how there arent any gun shootings on Texas when Texas is the "gun" state. Funny how that works out...oh that's right, it's because we ARE a gun state. Criminals dont know if they're packing or not.

Ya, you've been safe on campus since you've been there. I'm sure those at Virginia Tech felt the same way too.

[Hawker]

Im going to bring up another reason for banning guns on campus which is impossible to refute: ALCOHOL. A lot of people on college campuses get drunk and make bad decisions every night of the week, if there were more guns around there would just be a tragedy waiting to happen when some drunk ass takes out his gun to show it off and accidently shoots something or someone. Drunk people with guns = bad idea.

Yes, since there are so many drunk students walking around campus every day. Name me a time when a student has gotten drunk off-campus and shot someone. There isnt some magical line that borders the campus that suddenly makes people do something different.

[RidonKs]

Yes, since there are so many drunk students walking around campus every day. Name me a time when a student has gotten drunk off-campus and shot someone. There isnt some magical line that borders the campus that suddenly makes people do something different.
Ever heard of a barfight? Escalations are much more likely to occur when alcohol is involved. And if somebody's packing, there is a higher possibility of even more disastrous results.

[Hawker]

Ever heard of a barfight? Escalations are much more likely to occur when alcohol is involved. And if somebody's packing, there is a higher possibility of even more disastrous results.

Ok, and that's off campus. Name me a time where this has happened by a CHL owner. There are no bars on campus.

[Cannonball]

What's the difference between having a drunk person with a gun on campus vs off?

This is a fundamental issue. it's not really a on campus vs off campus thing.. I mean it is but it isn't. You either believe in the constitution and our right to bear arms or you don't...

[ElPigto]

People that have mental problems cant get CHLs. The ones with mental problems are going to be the ones that shoot people though and with the possibility of a CHL owner in that class being able to protect himself and the rest of the class is something that's worth having this passed.

People change. You think some of those folks have chronic mental problems. Some people just have sudden shifts in character. Not everyone is the same throughout college. Stress, anxiety, life changes, etc etc change people. Some are able to deal with it but others are not. How would you justify someone that was perfectly well when they got their CHL then suddenly a few months, maybe a year later has a mental lapse? We couldn't have possible predicted such an event but sometimes it happens.


One of the people that rushed Witman was an armed civilian. It is funny though how there arent any gun shootings on Texas when Texas is the "gun" state. Funny how that works out...oh that's right, it's because we ARE a gun state. Criminals dont know if they're packing or not.


No gun shootings. Guess living in those suburbs has blinded you. Try living in the hood and see how many gun shootings has happened there.


Ya, you've been safe on campus since you've been there. I'm sure those at Virginia Tech felt the same way too.


A gun owner with a CHL saving my life in a possible gun shooting on campus, would make me feel no different afterwards towards guns. I am against it plain in simple. Campus don't need guns. People are still growing up during this phase of their lives.

[KeylessEntry]

Yes, since there are so many drunk students walking around campus every day. Name me a time when a student has gotten drunk off-campus and shot someone. There isnt some magical line that borders the campus that suddenly makes people do something different.

Yeah, there are a lot of drunk students walking around campus every day. There are about 10x more drunk students walking around campus every night.

You want a student getting drunk off campus and shooting someone? It took me about 5 seconds to find this:

http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070510/NEWS03/705100342/1004/NEWS03

People who are drunk make bad decisions
People with CFL are just as likely to get drunk as anybody else

[Hawker]

People change. You think some of those folks have chronic mental problems. Some people just have sudden shifts in character. Not everyone is the same throughout college. Stress, anxiety, life changes, etc etc change people. Some are able to deal with it but others are not. How would you justify someone that was perfectly well when they got their CHL then suddenly a few months, maybe a year later has a mental lapse? We couldn't have possible predicted such an event but sometimes it happens.[QUOTE]
Can you name me a time when this supposed situation has happened to a CHL owner? Like an actual fact maybe?



No gun shootings. Guess living in those suburbs has blinded you. Try living in the hood and see how many gun shootings has happened there.

I was obviously referring to school shootings.



A gun owner with a CHL saving my life in a possible gun shooting on campus, would make me feel no different afterwards towards guns. I am against it plain in simple. Campus don't need guns. People are still growing up during this phase of their lives.


Campus don't need school shootings. Plain and simple. Allowing CHL owners to carry guns on campus could prevent this.

[Hawker]

Yeah, there are a lot of drunk students walking around campus every day. There are about 10x more drunk students walking around campus every night.

You want a student getting drunk off campus and shooting someone? It took me about 5 seconds to find this:

http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070510/NEWS03/705100342/1004/NEWS03

People who are drunk make bad decisions
People with CFL are just as likely to get drunk as anybody else

Was that dude a CHL owner? I asked for a CHL owner.

[KeylessEntry]

Was that dude a CHL owner? I asked for a CHL owner.

Whats the difference? If a drunk person who owns their gun but doesnt have a CHL can shoot someone, why cant a drunk person who does have a CHL?

[ElPigto]

Can you name me a time when this supposed situation has happened to a CHL owner? Like an actual fact maybe?


I can't seen I don't follow every situation but I sure as hell have seen people change over time. This is all I'm saying. People change and you have no way to control this.


I was obviously referring to school shootings.


So no school shootings have happened in this state because we are gun state. Right! That's the reason they haven't happened.

In general they just haven't happened. School shootings are a rare event. I could probably count with my fingers and toes the amount of school shootings that have happened in my lifetime.

I would like for you to prove to me how this has prevented people from shooting. I remember when I was in 7th grade a guy brought a gun to school. He never intended to use it during the school day but his intention was to take care of business do to some trouble he was having with some kid (which would of been after school some distance from school). If you think this even could have been prevented from happening (if it would of happened) if there was a gun owner there then I'm not sure what to think. Gun owners are not going to be there at every f!cking minute where the event is happening.

What gun owners will do is instill fear into students on campus. You think I want to see someone with a gun sitting next to me? Probably not. I don't know his intentions. What if I mistake him for someone that has a license and is only a student for someone who actually has bad intentions. Once again I don't know people and I can't freaking know every person out there. If you think students won't be afraid, you are selling yourself short.

AND YES HAWKER I KNOW people carry guns on the street here in Texas.


Campus don't need school shootings. Plain and simple. Allowing CHL owners to carry guns on campus could prevent this.

Because they happen so often that we need the civilian police taking care of business. Lol. :roll: :roll:

[ElPigto]

Whats the difference? If a drunk person who owns their gun but doesnt have a CHL can shoot someone, why cant a drunk person who does have a CHL?

I would like to make a point on this. How the hell would we be able to keep up with those who have a CHL license with those that don't? IN campuses such as A&M and UT, it can be hard to keep up with such a large number of people. So should I assume anyone who carries a gun has a gun license? Heh, I don't trust people that much now.

[Hawker]

Whats the difference? If a drunk person who owns their gun but doesnt have a CHL can shoot someone, why cant a drunk person who does have a CHL?

That story just enforces the fact that criminals will get guns no matter what and by not allowing someone to defend themselves against them is wrong.

[KeylessEntry]

That story just enforces the fact that criminals will get guns no matter what and by not allowing someone to defend themselves against them is wrong.

Yeah you are definitely right. Since the story involves a drunk college student who is in no way a criminal shooting his roomate in a dispute. :rolleyes:

Great argument Hawker.

[boozehound]

It is unrealistic.
why? the test for the CHL is minimal and doesnt provide or require any tactical training. if there were gunshots in harrington and you ran out with your gun drawn, ready to save lives, and you saw someone in the hallway with a gun drawn, there could very well be a devastating accident. Its more realistic than your save the day scenario which is total BS and has no foundation in reality. I challenge you to find me more than 1 news article from the last year where someone with a CHL actually stopped a crime.

[KeylessEntry]

I have to go to work now, but first I just want to point out that if the only person who agrees with you is CANNONBALL, there is probably something seriously wrong with your argument.

[boozehound]

I've brought up the points multiple times. You need to learn to read son.

You really think people that arent policeman are going to run into a room where shooting has been heard?

And plus, what basis do you have to prove that it is realistic? That type of shit only happens in movies.
really? Accidental death by gun only happens in the movies? get your head out of your ass. you are so assured of the world yet you always come across as a very naive young man.

[Hawker]

I have to go to work now, but first I just want to point out that if the only person who agrees with you is CANNONBALL, there is probably something seriously wrong with your argument.

I don't really see how you're any different than Cannonball. You've just made up unrealistic situation that aren't based on facts but movies.

[Younggrease]

That story just enforces the fact that criminals will get guns no matter what and by not allowing someone to defend themselves against them is wrong.

Sorry but guns in schools are totally inconsistent with a schools educational mission. Guns in colleges would just ruin the educational environment.

There is no legit reason to bring guns onto any campus...

[boozehound]

I don't agree with Hawker or Cannonball, but the situation that Boozehound created was a tad bit loony. Must be pre-planned with a stealthy f*ckin fellow as the shooter.
whats so unrealistic about it? If hawker is suggesting that having armed students in the building (who have had very minimal training in order to get the CHL) would help prevent a shooter from escalating the situation, why wouldnt it be just as likely that they would mistake another student with the gun and good intentions as the shooter?

Hawker is acting like a kid with a CHL is trained to respond to this type of situation. thats ignorant as ****. Thats like saying some douche with hunter safety training cannot be involved in a hunting accident. and we all know that there are hundreds of hunting accidents a year by approved hunters.

[Hawker]

http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.htm#2000chart

http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.gif


The comparison of arrest rates suggests just the opposite – Texans licensed to carry a gun are much less violent than Texans who are not.


No male Texas CHL holder was arrested for negligent manslaughter during the 1996 through 2000 period.

[Hawker]

Sorry but guns in schools are totally inconsistent with a schools educational mission. Guns in colleges would just ruin the educational environment.

There is no legit reason to bring guns onto any campus...

I would say school shootings do the same too.

[boozehound]

[



Campus don't need school shootings. Plain and simple. Allowing CHL owners to carry guns on campus could prevent this.
how? by having untrained civilians returning fire in a crowded classroom?

Again, you keep asking for concrete examples. I would like a concrete example of a CHL owner actually preventing a crime within the last year. If they are such a deterrent in the general public (hows that working out for the crime rate in houston, SA, el paso, dallas, etc), then prove it to me. Once you have proven they are a deterrent in a general setting, then you might be able to argue that they would also act as a deterrent in a school setting. but again, a bunch of untrained kids returning fire with handguns in a crowded classroom doesnt sound so great to me.

[Hawker]

how? by having untrained civilians returning fire in a crowded classroom?

Again, you keep asking for concrete examples. I would like a concrete example of a CHL owner actually preventing a crime within the last year. If they are such a deterrent in the general public (hows that working out for the crime rate in houston, SA, el paso, dallas, etc), then prove it to me. Once you have proven they are a deterrent in a general setting, then you might be able to argue that they would also act as a deterrent in a school setting. but again, a bunch of untrained kids returning fire with handguns in a crowded classroom doesnt sound so great to me.

Why are you assuming they are untrained? CHL owners IN TEXAS have more than likely handled guns for a majority of their life.

[Younggrease]

http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.htm#2000chart

http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.gif

this has nothing to do with the current debate. Its not just about safety its about all you sacrifice by having guns in an educational setting. Just the idea of sitting in class with people carrying guns is a joke to me.

[boozehound]

http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.htm#2000chart

http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.gif
that has nothing to do with anything. do they reduce the crime rate in their community? does it have a broader impact? All it says is that those people who apply for CHL tend to be good citizens. it says nothing about their effectiveness in preventing crime or stopping a campus rampage.

[Hawker]

that has nothing to do with anything. do they reduce the crime rate in their community? does it have a broader impact? All it says is that those people who apply for CHL tend to be good citizens. it says nothing about their effectiveness in preventing crime or stopping a campus rampage.

It proves all the dumbasses that think CHL holders will shoot anyone. Read the article.

NO CHL holder was convicted of negligent manslaughter from 1999 to 2000.

[boozehound]

[QUOTE=Hawker]Why are you assuming they are untrained? CHL owners IN TEXAS have more than likely handled guns for a majority of their life.[/Q

going shooting at the range and dove hunting do not qualify you to engage in urban combat type settings, which is what we are talking about. most hunters are around guns their whole lives, yet there are still hundreds of accidents a year and that is not in a high stress situation where the deer are firing back at you and shielding themselves behind other students.

[Randy]

Why are you assuming they are untrained? CHL owners IN TEXAS have more than likely handled guns for a majority of their life.

More than likely? Well, when you put it that way I can't help but agree with you!

And there is an enormous difference between being trained and having some experience, especially when it pertains to something like firearms. Jesus, Hawker.

[Clifton]

It proves all the dumbasses that think CHL holders will shoot anyone. Read the article.

NO CHL holder was convicted of negligent manslaughter from 1999 to 2000.
Ok that's nice but can you perhaps respond to one of the good arguments the other side is making, rather than the stupid ones that pop up here and there?

[Younggrease]

I would say school shootings do the same too.

How many people have died from school shooting as a percentage of college shooting...You want to change the collegial environment just because of a few people dying. Why not have prohibition on campus with anyone caught drunk getting thrown out to stop campus date rape. If safety is your #1 concern then that would do a lot more good then this bill.

[Hawker]

Ok that's nice but can you perhaps respond to one of the good arguments the other side is making, rather than the stupid ones that pop up here and there?

I've responded to everyone. I've got a lab final tonight so I'll get back to yall.

[boozehound]

I've responded to everyone. I've got a lab final tonight so I'll get back to yall.
no you havent. I asked for one, just one, actual case where someone with a CHL has actually helped prevent or stop a crime from occurring. Instead you respond with the same blather about how they have a lower crime rate than the texas average. You know what, so do gays in texas. what does that mean? Nothing. Its called a spurious statistic.

You arent actually debating, you are saying the same tired talking points over and over.

[UD]

Hawker is like my mother, immune to logic.

First off, that graph is a load of horseshit. OF COURSE there will be less crimes committed by CHL holders, there are a helluva lot less of them than the entire Texas population at large.

This would be akin to me making a graph comparing crimes committed by all of the Javanese people in California compared with the entire population of California. Then I would proceed to scream, "Look at how peaceful Javanese people are! They have barely committed any crimes compared to all the other terrible California races!"

And secondly, your argument revolves around pretending to champion the Constitution. Younggrease makes an excellent point. Guns are CONTRARY to the goals of the educational system and have no place in a school setting. Can you give a REASON that you would need to have concealed handguns on campus other than to uphold the right to bear arms?

Stupid thread.

[boozehound]

I don't agree with Hawker or Cannonball, but the situation that Boozehound created was a tad bit loony. Must be pre-planned with a stealthy f*ckin fellow as the shooter.
where do you guys pull this james bond movie ****? How is it unreasonable to think that a person who has no tactical police training would make mistakes in this situation.

SO there is a shooting in a neighboring classroom. You are scared ****less, but you know you may be able to prevent some deaths. You grab your gun and head for the door. You see another guy with a gun in the hallway who you dont know. DO you talk to him first? Shoot first, hey you dont want to die? Wait for him to make a threatening move towards another classroom or student? Regardless, a bunch of machismo yahoos with handguns (limited accuracy) firing into a crowded classroom is not a good idea.

[Smokee]

I think its completely retarded. I can't wait to see accidental handgun tragedies go up in Texas, the Republican state of stupids.

Out of all of the college campuses in the nation, how many have had school shootings? And these paranoid gun nuts think its okay every retard can carry a gun on campus? Who the hell is packing guns off campus legally anyways?

Don't give me that gun training crap either. People trained in guns do stupid **** with them, just like that police officer who shot himself in the leg in front of a gun safety class of 7 yr olds. Stupid crap like that happens all of the time. "Ooops went to scratch my balls and forgot the safety was off, sorry man i didn't mean to shoot you during the exam" :hammerhead: **** that, thats just some of the most retarded backwards justification to carry a gun i've ever heard, if anything makes campuses WAY more dangerous. I'd even say the likelihood of a accidental tragedy from allowing this is WAY higher than some school shooter.

Texas has so many stupid far right people they're getting what they deserve. Just don't say i didn't say so when the tragic accidents start to pile up. I can't even believe there are so many stupid people in our country that think this ass backwards.

[Hawker]

no you havent. I asked for one, just one, actual case where someone with a CHL has actually helped prevent or stop a crime from occurring. Instead you respond with the same blather about how they have a lower crime rate than the texas average. You know what, so do gays in texas. what does that mean? Nothing. Its called a spurious statistic.

You arent actually debating, you are saying the same tired talking points over and over.

lol I could say the same about you and everyone else against it. It's not like we both have infinite reasons.

The significantly lower crime rate shows that they arent going to be the ones performing the school shootings.

[Hawker]

where do you guys pull this james bond movie ****? How is it unreasonable to think that a person who has no tactical police training would make mistakes in this situation.

SO there is a shooting in a neighboring classroom. You are scared ****less, but you know you may be able to prevent some deaths. You grab your gun and head for the door. You see another guy with a gun in the hallway who you dont know. DO you talk to him first? Shoot first, hey you dont want to die? Wait for him to make a threatening move towards another classroom or student? Regardless, a bunch of machismo yahoos with handguns (limited accuracy) firing into a crowded classroom is not a good idea.

It's unreasonable to think that they're going to be 20 people shooting each other and have people run into classrooms shooting up whoever has a gun. That's loony.

[Hawker]

[QUOTE=UD

[RapsFan]

I can't even beleive that people are arguing FOR allowing people to carry gund on a school campus. That is why guns are a problem. There is no way that they should be allowed. Guns are an issue. Because a guy spent an entire 10 hours getting a piece of paper (no idea what you get but I am sure you understand my point), doesn't mean bad things still won't happen. I got my pleasure craft license today by going back and forth from various google sits looking up answers.....doesn't mean I won't crash my boat tomorrow.

And yeah it's in the constitution....but that **** needs to be updated!

[Hawker]

I think its completely retarded. I can't wait to see accidental handgun tragedies go up in Texas, the Republican state of stupids.

Out of all of the college campuses in the nation, how many have had school shootings? And these paranoid gun nuts think its okay every retard can carry a gun on campus? Who the hell is packing guns off campus legally anyways?

Don't give me that gun training crap either. People trained in guns do stupid **** with them, just like that police officer who shot himself in the leg in front of a gun safety class of 7 yr olds. Stupid crap like that happens all of the time. "Ooops went to scratch my balls and forgot the safety was off, sorry man i didn't mean to shoot you during the exam" :hammerhead: **** that, thats just some of the most retarded backwards justification to carry a gun i've ever heard, if anything makes campuses WAY more dangerous. I'd even say the likelihood of a accidental tragedy from allowing this is WAY higher than some school shooter.

Texas has so many stupid far right people they're getting what they deserve. Just don't say i didn't say so when the tragic accidents start to pile up. I can't even believe there are so many stupid people in our country that think this ass backwards.

So accidental handgun tragedies will go up b/c of students being able to carry guns on-campus? Ya, that makes a lot of sense. CHLs have been around since 1996. Nice logic dick bandit.

Too many school shootings have happened. That's equivalent to saying, "hey we only lost 1000 in Iraq compared to a million in WWII. This war aint so bad." And not every person is allowed to carry a gun, only CHL owners. You really shouldnt be posting in this thread if you don't know what the bill is about.

I dont see how it makes campuses way more dangerous when it doesnt make places off-campus more dangerous. Like I said, there isnt some f*cking invisible force field bordering campus.

How are we getting what we deserve? What is bad that's happening to us? Our economy is the best in the US.

[Hawker]

I can't even beleive that people are arguing FOR allowing people to carry gund on a school campus. That is why guns are a problem. There is no way that they should be allowed. Guns are an issue. Because a guy spent an entire 10 hours getting a piece of paper (no idea what you get but I am sure you understand my point), doesn't mean bad things still won't happen. I got my pleasure craft license today by going back and forth from various google sits looking up answers.....doesn't mean I won't crash my boat tomorrow.

And yeah it's in the constitution....but that **** needs to be updated!

It's funny how people wanna complain against Bush for breaking the constitution but when it comes to guns, people wont support it. Just like f*cking christians and their damn bible.

[Hawker]

For booze:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3396.html

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/3688

http://www.devel.garvas.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=3168

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

160 CHL convictions-.26% of all CHL owners

You can see the crimes commited by CHL owners as well in the last one.

[RapsFan]

I dont see how it makes campuses way more dangerous when it doesnt make places off-campus more dangerous. Like I said, there isnt some f*cking invisible force field bordering campus.



Wouldn't a place that has people walking around with guns statsitically be more dangerours then a place that has less people walking around with guns? Would that be logical?

Why is this about school shootings? What will people carrying guns do to prevent them? Are people thinking there would be a citizen's arrest or something? Wouldn't it just lead to more chaos during school shooting because you have people returning fire?

Sorry...that was a lot of question marks.

[Hawker]

Wouldn't a place that has people walking around with guns statsitically be more dangerours then a place that has less people walking around with guns? Would that be logical?

Why is this about school shootings? What will people carrying guns do to prevent them? Are people thinking there would be a citizen's arrest or something? Wouldn't it just lead to more chaos during school shooting because you have people returning fire?

Sorry...that was a lot of question marks.

Why is this about school shootings? Because the topic of discussion is a bill that will allow concealed hand guns on campus.

Allowing CHL owners to carry guns will allow students to protect themselves and not leave them defenseless.

Citizens arrest? No, just allowing students to protect themselves against criminals who have a gun.

Chaos? The shooter is going around shooting people. Not hard to spot.

[Younggrease]

This whole thing has very little to do with safety and a lot more to do with guns in the classroom being against the educational mission of the schools.

thats the argument the will be used and will ultimately win.

[RapsFan]

Why is this about school shootings? Because the topic of discussion is a bill that will allow concealed hand guns on campus.

Allowing CHL owners to carry guns will allow students to protect themselves and not leave them defenseless.

Citizens arrest? No, just allowing students to protect themselves against criminals who have a gun.

Chaos? The shooter is going around shooting people. Not hard to spot.

Come on man, don't just pick parts to quote. Obviously I said 'more' chaos. Of course a school shooting is chaotic, but having return fire probably would calm things down too much.

I get the topic of discussion...thanks. The question again is why is it about school shootings? Is this bill specifically wanting kids to be able to carry guns on campus because of school shootings....or is that just want people are arguing as justification for it? Serious question because I am not up to speed on the topic.

All in all, I would think that adding guns to any scenario probably isn't the best idea. Having a 21 year old pointing a gun at a wacko with an uzi seems like a losing proposition for everyone. How about get rid of guns, increase security. I don't think there was any scenario where I needed to carry a gun to my accounting class.

[Hawker]

This whole thing has very little to do with safety and a lot more to do with guns in the classroom being against the educational mission of the schools.

thats the argument the will be used and will ultimately win.

How is it against the educational mission of the schools?

[Hawker]

Come on man, don't just pick parts to quote. Obviously I said 'more' chaos. Of course a school shooting is chaotic, but having return fire probably would calm things down too much.

I get the topic of discussion...thanks. The question again is why is it about school shootings? Is this bill specifically wanting kids to be able to carry guns on campus because of school shootings....or is that just want people are arguing as justification for it? Serious question because I am not up to speed on the topic.

All in all, I would think that adding guns to any scenario probably isn't the best idea. Having a 21 year old pointing a gun at a wacko with an uzi seems like a losing proposition for everyone. How about get rid of guns, increase security. I don't think there was any scenario where I needed to carry a gun to my accounting class.

You cant always rely on security. They cant be everywhere.

And I'm sure the students at Virginia Tech said the same thing as well.

[RapsFan]

You cant always rely on security. They cant be everywhere.

And I'm sure the students at Virginia Tech said the same thing as well.

Nothing is certain. Every student walking around with a gun also wouldn't stop school shootings unfortunately.

[boozehound]

It's unreasonable to think that they're going to be 20 people shooting each other and have people run into classrooms shooting up whoever has a gun. That's loony.
it doesnt take 20. it takes 2. or 1 whos nervous. An accident is probably just as likely as any postive outcome.


and no one, in pages, has said anything about the CHL owners being the school shooter. so what?

[Hawker]

it doesnt take 20. it takes 2. or 1 whos nervous. An accident is probably just as likely as any postive outcome.


and no one, in pages, has said anything about the CHL owners being the school shooter. so what?

This bill is about CHL owners.

Here's another link.
http://concealedcampus.org/common_arguments.php

http://www.concealedcampus.org/pdf/ccw_gun_facts.pdf


Fact: In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their
concealed carry law passed.

All of it is cited. Look at the footnotes.

The first link assesses everybody's argument.

[ElPigto]

The law is not likely pass regardless according to my sources.

[Hawker]

The law is not likely pass regardless according to my sources.

For you pigto.

[QUOTE]Argument: A person could snap and go on a killing spree.

Answer: Contrary to popular myth, most psychiatric professionals agree that the notion of a previously sane, well-adjusted person simply

[Hawker]

This whole thing has very little to do with safety and a lot more to do with guns in the classroom being against the educational mission of the schools.

thats the argument the will be used and will ultimately win.

Here's your answer to that question.


Answer: Ask anyone in a

[Hawker]

To those that say guns on campus will escalate crime:


Since the Utah Supreme Court ruling in the fall semester of 2006, state law has allowed licensed individuals to carry concealed handguns on the campuses of all nine public colleges in Utah. Concealed carry has been allowed at Colorado State University (Fort Collins, CO) since 2003 and at Blue Ridge Community College (Weyers Cave, VA) since 1995. After allowing concealed carry on campus for a combined total of more than eighty semesters, none of these eleven schools have seen a single resulting incident of gun violence (including suicides), a single gun accident, or a single gun theft. Likewise, none of the forty ‘right-to-carry’ states have seen a resulting increase in gun violence since legalizing concealed carry, despite the fact that licensed citizens in those states regularly carry concealed handguns in places like office buildings, movie theaters, grocery stores, shopping malls, restaurants, churches, banks, etc. Numerous studies*, including studies by University of Maryland senior research scientist John Lott, University of Georgia professor David Mustard, engineering statistician William Sturdevant, and various state agencies, show that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes.

*“Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns,” John Lott and David Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies (v.26, no.1, pages 1-68, January 1997); “An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population,” William E. Sturdevant, September 1, 2000; Florida Department of Justice statistics, 1998; Florida Department of State, “Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report,” 1998; Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, reported in San Antonio Express-News, September 2000; Texas Department of Corrections data, 1996-2000, compiled by the Texas State Rifle Association

So much for that argument.

Gun could go off by accident though?




Answer: Accidental discharges are very rare—particularly because modern firearms feature multiple safety features and because a handgun’s trigger is typically not exposed when it is concealed—and only a small fraction of accidental discharges result in injury. SCCC feels that it is wrong to deny citizens a right simply because that right is accompanied by a negligible risk.

NOTE: Only about 2% of all firearm-related deaths in the U.S. are accidental, and most of those are hunting accidents and accidents involving firearms being openly handled in an unsafe manner. A person is five times more likely to accidentally drown, five times more likely to accidentally die in a fire, 29 times more likely to die in an accidental fall, and 32 times more likely to die from accidental poisoning than to die from an accidental gunshot wound.

ADDITIONAL NOTE: The accidental discharge that occurred in the cockpit of a U.S. Airways jet, on March 22, 2008, occurred during the application of a poorly designed trigger lock, which FAA regulations require be in place during landing.

Throw out that one too.

[Hawker]

The following are facts

Crime will rise with CHLs?

Fact: Forty states150, comprising the majority of the American population, are "right-to-carry"
states. Statistics show that in these states the crime rate fell (or did not rise) after the right-tocarry
law became active (as of July, 2006). Nine states deny or restrict the right to carry.


Fact: After passing their concealed carry law, Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the
national average to 4% below, and remains below the national average (as of the last reporting
period, 2005).152


Fact: In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their
concealed carry law passed. Rape rates fell 93% faster in the first year after enactment, and 500% faster in the second153. Assaults fell 250% faster in the second year.154


Fact: More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right-to-carry laws155:
Fact: States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national
averages.156


Fact: Deaths and injuries from mass
public shootings fall dramatically after
right-to-carry concealed handgun laws
are enacted. Between 1977 and 1995157,
the average death rate from mass
shootings plummeted by up to 91% after
such laws went into effect, and injuries
dropped by over 80%.158

Myth: People with concealed weapons permits will commit
crimes


Fact: Even gun control
organizations agree it
is a non-problem, as in
Texas – “because there
haven't been Wild
West shootouts in the
streets”.170

Myth: Texas CCW holders are arrested 66% more often

Fact: Compared to the entire population, Texas CCW holders are about 7.6 times less likely to
be arrested for a violent crime.173 The numbers breakdown as follows:
• 214,000 CCW holders174
• 526 (0.2%) felony arrests of CCW holders that have been adjudicated
• 100 (0.05%) felony
convictions
Myth: CCWs will lead to mass public shootings

Fact: Multiple victim public
shootings drop in states that
pass shall-issue CCW
legislation.176

The facts are heavily against those against allowing CHL owners carry guns on campus.

Crime DECREASED when instituting the CHL law. Yall have no facts or evidence to support your cause. Yall just arent educated and that's a shame b/c you're clearly making the wrong decision.

[Hawker]

To those concerned about alcohol:


Answer: This is NOT a debate about keeping guns out of the hands of college students. Allowing concealed carry on college campuses would not change the rules about who can buy a gun or who can obtain a concealed handgun license. Every state that provides for legalized concealed carry has statutes prohibiting license holders from carrying while under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Legalizing concealed carry on college campuses would neither make it easier for college students to obtain firearms nor make it legal for a person to carry a firearm while under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Allowing concealed carry on college campuses would have no impact on the laws regulating concealed carry at bars and off-campus parties, the places where students (particularly students of legal age to obtain a concealed handgun license) are most likely to consume alcohol.

[barne100]

Plenty of people carry weapons illegally. The law abiding citizen is at a huge disadvatage. It's very relevant because if the law abiding student is able to carry, someone contemplating shooting up Hawky's school will think twice.

think twice about what??? when's the last school shooting that the shooter came out alive? He knows he's going to die.. and doesn't care.

Plus, I don't know about Texas, but here in Michigan there might be one person out of the 300 in class that would actually follow through with bringing a gun. It would probably be in his backpack... as he struggled to get it out and shoot the guy, he'd probably get shot and end up shooting a few of his own classmates...

I am libertarian and love the constitution. but this is silly.. it's a tired argument... on both sides.

People rarely going on killing sprees on or off campuses. When they do, whether carrying guns is legal or not, they usually end up shooting themselves or the cops shoot them.

[Hawker]

think twice about what??? when's the last school shooting that the shooter came out alive? He knows he's going to die.. and doesn't care.

Plus, I don't know about Texas, but here in Michigan there might be one person out of the 300 in class that would actually follow through with bringing a gun. It would probably be in his backpack... as he struggled to get it out and shoot the guy, he'd probably get shot and end up shooting a few of his own classmates...

I am libertarian and love the constitution. but this is silly.. it's a tired argument... on both sides.

People rarely going on killing sprees on or off campuses. When they do, whether carrying guns is legal or not, they usually end up shooting themselves or the cops shoot them.

False. I believe there's been 37 school shootings.

Only three involved shots being fired by police officers.

The majority of the time it's stopped by a fellow student/faculty member or they shoot themselves.

And before they shoot themselves or the cops shoot them, they kill other students as well. They'll die but a CHL owner can kill the shooter before he does anymore destruction.

School shootings arent the only thing that happens on campus. There's rape and theft as well. College campuses are a prime place for crime.

It doesnt matter if he'll, "probably just get shot anyway and plus it will probably be in his backpack." He'll have the option to protect himself and CHL holders want that option.

Just like you could make some story that may or may not happen I can make up a story that the guy will have a gun in his jacket and takes his gun out and shoot the criminal. Done.

[Hawker]

I just want to know how in 11 schools in 80 semester, none of the things people have argued (alcohol, accidents, "snapping") have come up.

It hasnt happened in 80 semester with thousands of people attending the campus through all the years. Yall simply have no argument.

[Younggrease]

Here's your answer to that question.


Answer: Ask anyone in a ‘right to carry’ state when he or she last noticed another person carrying a concealed handgun. The word 'concealed' is there for a reason. Concealed handguns would no more distract college students from learning than they currently distract moviegoers from enjoying movies or office workers from doing their jobs.

“In most states with ‘shall-issue’ concealed carry laws, the rate of concealed carry is about 1%. That means that one person out of 100 is licensed to carry a concealed handgun. Therefore, statistically speaking, a packed 300-seat movie theater contains three individuals legally carrying concealed handguns, and a shopping mall crowded with 1,000 shoppers contains ten individuals legally carrying concealed handguns. Students who aren't too afraid to attend movies or go shopping and who aren't distracted from learning by the knowledge that a classmate might be illegally carrying a firearm shouldn't be distracted from learning by the knowledge that a classmate might be legally carrying a firearm.”

I wasnt aware that I paid 20,000 - 40,000 grand to get college experience at the movies or the mall. Part of the money spent is to preserve the traditional college atmosphere. I dont know what kind of schools they have in Texas but where Im from this stuff isnt a problem. Such a law might also hurt the schools ranking as well, as many out of state students with high credentials could look the other way if this law is passed.

And its important to remember no matter what this will only apply to a few state schools.

[PastyVegetables]

Yall simply have no argument.


YEAH people Mr Hawker here is completely right. As some of the highest quality and most respected posters on this fine website, mr White Chocolate and mr Cannonball have already pointed out, Hawker is 100% correct that kids should be allowed to bring guns to school. Hawker is absolutely right there is absolutely no legitimate argument that you fools can present against bringing guns to school. Every weak argument you fools try to bring into this thread Hawker absolutely destroys with his graphs and quotes from progun websites. Want to get soul crushed again? Keep arguing with Hawker you idiots, because it should be very apparent by now that he is like a rock in both mind and body, in the sense that he doesnt BUDGE. Your so called "logic" bounces off of him and smacks your mom in the face, *****es.

I think its pretty obvious that when Hawker, Cannonball and White Chocolate think something is right, then by God it is right!! You fools simply have no argument here, and even if you did, we wouldnt listen to you anyway.

[ElPigto]

Provide some links to your sources Hawker.

[PastyVegetables]

I bet gencbiba would agree with Hawker and all the other smart people on this topic as well. Too bad he is busy arguing with his dinning room table or something.

[Hawker]

I wasnt aware that I paid 20,000 - 40,000 grand to get college experience at the movies or the mall. Part of the money spent is to preserve the traditional college atmosphere. I dont know what kind of schools they have in Texas but where Im from this stuff isnt a problem. Such a law might also hurt the schools ranking as well, as many out of state students with high credentials could look the other way if this law is passed.

The money you pay is irrelevant. It's about how you feel. Do you walk around the mall or the movie theater being scared for your life because some dude might be packing heat? Why would you feel the same in a school? Like I said, there isnt some invisible line around campus that makes people feel different. You're simply not making any logical sense.

And like I said, 11 schools have passed this already. How come nothing you or anybody else has said happened?

What "stuff" isnt a problem? What are you talking about?

Your experience doesnt change because people with CHLs can carry their gun on campus.

[Hawker]

Provide some links to your sources Hawker.

I have. Look back a page.

[Hawker]

YEAH people Mr Hawker here is completely right. As some of the highest quality and most respected posters on this fine website, mr White Chocolate and mr Cannonball have already pointed out, Hawker is 100% correct that kids should be allowed to bring guns to school. Hawker is absolutely right there is absolutely no legitimate argument that you fools can present against bringing guns to school. Every weak argument you fools try to bring into this thread Hawker absolutely destroys with his graphs and quotes from progun websites. Want to get soul crushed again? Keep arguing with Hawker you idiots, because it should be very apparent by now that he is like a rock in both mind and body, in the sense that he doesnt BUDGE. Your so called "logic" bounces off of him and smacks your mom in the face, *****es.

I think its pretty obvious that when Hawker, Cannonball and White Chocolate think something is right, then by God it is right!! You fools simply have no argument here, and even if you did, we wouldnt listen to you anyway.

Graphs and quotes from progun websites that have been cited by various sources. I dont see anybody providing any sources at all. But if it's from an anti-gun website, I guess I shouldnt value it at all right?

I just want to know why nobody has snapped, had accidental gun thefts, increase crime or more suicides in schools that have already passed this in 80 semester, 11 schools and thousands of kids attending these schools.

[ElPigto]

I have. Look back a page.

Sweet. I thought you just posted a bunch of info without even giving a link.

[Hawker]

Sweet. I thought you just posted a bunch of info without even giving a link.

This is an issue I feel really serious about b/c I think people that are against it just aren't educated about the issue.

The more links with more information I can provide (that are cited and provide facts) the better.

I used to be against this.

[Younggrease]

The money you pay is irrelevant. It's about how you feel. Do you walk around the mall or the movie theater being scared for your life because some dude is packing heat? Why would you feel the same in a school? Like I said, there isnt some invisible line around campus that makes people feel different. You're simply not making any logical sense.

And like I said, 11 schools have passed this already. How come nothing you or anybody else has said happened?

What "stuff" isnt a problem? What are you talking about?

Your experience doesnt change because people with CHLs can carry their gun on campus.

But there is a line in the classroom that is susposed to safe and sacred. It doesnt matter if I walk around the movie theather scared or not, its the fact that you must realize that the Courts have made it clear that in the schaloatic setting you do not have all the rights that you have outside the school setting. Traditionally schools have been a sacred place of thought to bring guns into the place changes the whole mood. The notion of having guns in the hands of students is just out there. If you dont think it feels different being in a room with guns as opposed to being in a room without guns then your crazy. And just the notion that there are guns in the room would taint the educational experience for many.



My experience does change if there are guns on campus.. I would look at everyone different and would not feel as safe as I otherwise would. I would never go to a campus like that. Im sure many other people feel the same.

[PastyVegetables]

Why draw the line at handguns anyway?

I want to be able to take my AK-47 to class. Who cares if it is concealed or not? What kind of nutjob would ever shoot up a school if they knew I was sitting in the back of the room with my AK???

You guys should be glad im here to protect you. Just imagine some bad guy opened fire on you and me and my AK werent nearby to save you. I am trying to save your life!!!!

[Hawker]

But there is a line in the classroom that is susposed to safe and sacred. It doesnt matter if I walk around the movie theather scared or not, its the fact that you must realize that the Courts have made it clear that in the schaloatic setting you do not have all the rights that you have outside the school setting. Traditionally schools have been a sacred place of thought to bring guns into the place changes the whole mood. The notion of having guns in the hands of students is just out there. If you dont think it feels different being in a room with guns as opposed to being in a room without guns then your crazy. And just the notion that there are guns in the room would taint the educational experience for many.



My experience does change if there are guns on campus.. I would look at everyone different and would not feel as safe as I otherwise would. I would never go to a campus like that. Im sure many other people feel the same.

So tell me, why do people still go to Colorado State University (26,000 undergrads), Utah public universities and Blue Ridge CC havent felt the same thing you have.

Yes, the classroom is "SUPPOSED" to be safe and sacred and that's exactly why college kids seem to get their shit stolen so often b/c they feel nothing can happen to them and feel so secure when that's completely false. Murders, rapes and school shootings are random and you never know when they can happen. By enabling CHL owners to carry on campus, the crime rate will go down. States with no right to carry have significantly higher crime rates. Read the facts man. You're wrong.

There can ALWAYS be a possibility of a gun in a classroom regardless of the law. So I really don't get your point.

[ElPigto]

But there is a line in the classroom that is susposed to safe and sacred. It doesnt matter if I walk around the movie theather scared or not, its the fact that you must realize that the Courts have made it clear that in the schaloatic setting you do not have all the rights that you have outside the school setting. Traditionally schools have been a sacred place of thought to bring guns into the place changes the whole mood. The notion of having guns in the hands of students is just out there. If you dont think it feels different being in a room with guns as opposed to being in a room without guns then your crazy. And just the notion that there are guns in the room would taint the educational experience for many.



My experience does change if there are guns on campus.. I would look at everyone different and would not feel as safe as I otherwise would. I would never go to a campus like that. Im sure many other people feel the same.

I'm sure many students feel the same way. I'm trying to research to see if there are any surveys available but I'm pretty sure a lot of students would be scared to be on a campus with guns. It not so much if they are being shown and such one must also understand that people are paranoid. People like me, I get paranoid with stuff like that. My learning experience would definitely be different if I knew there were guns on campus. A lot of people are like this. It's like knowing that a python snake is in the room and even though we know it is not venomous, just the thought of knowing there is snake in the room would freak many people out. Hell, even if it was caged I'm sure many would be looking over their shoulder. Same logic applies to this, even if we know that the people with the license have passed the test, just knowing her/he has a gun would be frightening.

[Younggrease]

So tell me, why do people still go to Colorado State University (26,000 undergrads), Utah public universities and Blue Ridge CC havent felt the same thing you have.
.

Again these are not elite schools...they dont have to worry about ranking. Nobody chooses to go these schools as a first choice they are not the students I was talking about. I was talking about kids considering University of Texas as opposed to Georgetown. This is gonna be a factor in their decision.

I dont agree with it but I dont really care because I would never go to school in Texas or go to Texas without some crazy circumstance. Have fun carrying guns around campus. I went to school in a different ball park, we dont have test proctors, if someone lost money we would pick it up and bring it to the lost and found(even a stray 100-200 dollars) etc. The actual idea that trust would be jeopardized because of a couple of school shooting would change the whole identity of schools like this. But these schools are generally private anyway so it wouldnt effect them.

[Hawker]

Again these are not elite schools...they dont have to worry about ranking. Nobody chooses to go these schools as a first choice they are not the students I was talking about. I was talking about kids considering University of Texas as opposed to Georgetown. This is gonna be a factor in their decision.

I dont agree with it but I dont really care because I would never go to school in Texas or go to Texas without some crazy circumstance. Have fun carrying guns around campus. I went to school in a different ball park, we dont have test proctors, if someone lost money we would pick it up and bring it to the lost and found(even a stray 100-200 dollars) etc. The actual idea that trust would be jeopardized because of a couple of school shooting would change the whole identity of schools like this. But these schools are generally private anyway so it wouldnt effect them.

It doesnt matter if they are elite schools, they still dont feel the same things you feel about "college experience." They still have students that go to the university regardless.

[Younggrease]

It doesnt matter if they are elite schools, they still dont feel the same things you feel about "college experience." They still have students that go to the university regardless.

Not everyone is gonna have the same ideas about the college experience and not everyone's motives are pure. Im just stating my opinion.

If I were to get into a constitutional analysis the whole arguement is gonna be much different. And also very long and Im not sure what side would win. This is purely opinion not based in law or fact.

[Hawker]

Not everyone is gonna have the same ideas about the college experience and not everyone's motives are pure. Im just stating my opinion.

If I were to get into a constitutional analysis the whole arguement is gonna be much different. And also very long and Im not sure what side would win. This is purely opinion not based in law or fact.

Except my opinion is based on real facts (other CHL public universities experiencing nothing any of yall are arguing) and the fact that crime rates have decreased when enacting CHL.

Yes, you can claim logical fallacy association but the extremely large decrease is too much to call a fallacy.

[Younggrease]

Except my opinion is based on real facts (other CHL public universities experiencing nothing any of yall are arguing) and the fact that crime rates have decreased when enacting CHL.

Yes, you can claim logical fallacy association but the extremely large decrease is too much to call a fallacy.

You opinion as to whether this should pass as a matter of constitutional law is not based on facts. The fact that crime rates decreased has no bearing on the passing of the bill. It doesnt even come into the argument. So again you havent even began to touch on the argument.

What would have to be discussed is whether what level of scrutiny should be used and whether the fit is appropriate. Whether the right to self defense through guns a fundamental right etc.... All the stuff you mention is consequential and mainly policy arg. which carry little weight.

[Smokee]

False. I believe there's been 37 school shootings.




now compare that to the amount of accidental shootings there have been.

[jbot]

i don't think it will solve anything by everyone wearing handguns.

[LebrickJames84']

yes

[Hawker]

now compare that to the amount of accidental shootings there have been.

There's been zero accidental shootings on 11 public schools in 80 semesters of thousands of attending students.

[Hawker]

i don't think it will solve anything by everyone wearing handguns.

Then why has crime decreased in every state that has allowed CHL?

Why do cops bring guns when there is a dude with a gun on campus?

[Balla_Status]

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/19365762/detail.html

[QUOTE]COLLEGE PARK, Ga. -- A group of college students said they are lucky to be alive and [B]they

[step_back]

why is there a need to carry a weapon on campus? Is security really that lacking at American colleges?

[Hawker]

http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/05/college-handgun-bill-clears-fi.html

College handgun bill clears first Senate vote.

Hurdle #1=passed.

Good to see some of our liberties have a shot at surviving.

[rufuspaul]

http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/05/college-handgun-bill-clears-fi.html

College handgun bill clears first Senate vote.

Hurdle #1=passed.

Good to see some of our liberties have a shot at surviving.

Good choice of words my good man.

[Hawker]

http://www.svherald.com/articles/2009/06/27/news/doc4a45c464a276c785939623.txt

[QUOTE]PHOENIX

[thejumpa]

If I could carry, I would. There are too many crazy people who either feel the need to prove something or who are mentally disturbed. In either situation, I would rather be safe than sorry.

Of course, if you aren't smart about guns yourself, then you could possibly do something stupid. Carrying and using when needed is what people should do in these times.

[Rasheed1]

I have a gun and I carry sometimes.... But allowing guns into places of education is simply a very bad idea....

I attended college and some of things going on simply were not conducive to having guns around....

guns would have made sh*t alot worse

I can understand and even support a school's decision to say 'no way' to something like this..

schools do not want to get caught in every incident involving guns and kids... bad mix

[DeuceWallaces]

This is stupid. I hope private colleges still keep them off their campuses. No one with a concealed weapon is gonna stop mass killings at a university. When has there ever been a report of a private citizen with a concealed weapon stopping a public shooting by using his/her weapon?

[thejumpa]

There would have been a report when one of those jackasses stuck their heads into the rooms and someone inside was ready.

It's a touchy subject because in a lot of situations, it could make things worse. In some situations, it could prevent things from getting worse too.

[Rasheed1]

This is stupid. I hope private colleges still keep them off their campuses. No one with a concealed weapon is gonna stop mass killings at a university. When has there ever been a report of a private citizen with a concealed weapon stopping a public shooting by using his/her weapon?


to me its a dead issue simply on the strength of the liability schools would assume if they allow students to start carrying weapons at schools..


:oldlol: I could tell you right now they are not trying to be in conflict with students and their parents and the law over dorm shootings and cafe shootings....

you can spot trouble a mile away on this issue... I'd be totally shocked to see any school agree to allow kids to carry weapons on campus

its almost absurd the amount of responsibility schools would have to take on and im sure they arent trying to do that no matter what happens in the senate

[DeuceWallaces]

There would have been a report when one of those jackasses stuck their heads into the rooms and someone inside was ready.

It's a touchy subject because in a lot of situations, it could make things worse. In some situations, it could prevent things from getting worse too.

Yeah, and I'm saying when has that ever happened? When has a private citizen with a concealed weapon, who was not an off duty officer, prevented a public shooting? Has it happened once the past 60 years?

[DeuceWallaces]

to me its a dead issue simply on the strength of the liability schools would assume if they allow students to start carrying weapons at schools..


:oldlol: I could tell you right now they are not trying to be in conflict with students and their parents and the law over dorm shootings and cafe shootings....

you can spot trouble a mile away on this issue... I'd be totally shocked to see any school agree to allow kids to carry weapons on campus

its almost absurd the amount of responsibility schools would have to take on and im sure they arent trying to do that no matter what happens in the senate

Aye, having a policy of no guns on campus keeps them in the clear. I can't see them swaying from that either. Unless states with approved concealed weapons on campus laws threaten to withhold funding if they're not permitted.

[thejumpa]

Yeah, and I'm saying when has that ever happened? When has a private citizen with a concealed weapon, who was not an off duty officer, prevented a public shooting? Has it happened once the past 60 years?

I'm sure it has happened at least once in the last 60 years. I mean, that's a long ass time.....

I see what your saying but you also gotta understand that most Americans are a bit clueless when it comes to guns and whatnot. They aren't built to walk around with guns and use them the right way to prevent something. Also, a lot of the people with guns are a bit trigger happy.....a trait that more than likely will make more bad than good.

If you had a gun on you the next time someone wanted to rob a bank, or kill people at a college, or just randomly kill people....it COULD help. It's an extreme situation and you have to know what your doing but one shot could prevent A LOT of things from happening. Am I right?

[thejumpa]

Plus, any situation where a citizen prevents someone from shooting with a gun is going to get swept under the rug.

[rufuspaul]

Maybe dueling could become a NCAA sport.

[DeuceWallaces]

Plus, any situation where a citizen prevents someone from shooting with a gun is going to get swept under the rug.

I'm pretty sure it would be the opposite. I think I'd hear about it on Fox News every day.

[sunsfan1357]

I'm waiting for the day when someone carrying a concealed weapon on campus tries to prevent a massacre, but instead ends up shooting down a civilian themself. What happens then?

[GOBB]

I wonder if yo get shot by a stray bullet from a student do you automatically get a 4.0 GPA? lol Be alot of mofos taking a bullet.


I'm waiting for the day when someone carrying a concealed weapon on campus tries to prevent a massacre, but instead ends up shooting down a civilian themself. What happens then?

How about a regular fight that leads to someone pulling out thier gun and shooting?

[thejumpa]

I'm pretty sure it would be the opposite. I think I'd hear about it on Fox News every day.

True but you already see where Fox would be going with it. Blaming it on some sort of music influence (depending on the person who did it) or somehow referring to Obama in a negative way. I highly doubt they would praise a random citizen who shot another person dead in order to prevent a shooting...


I'm waiting for the day when someone carrying a concealed weapon on campus tries to prevent a massacre, but instead ends up shooting down a civilian themself. What happens then?

What happens? An innocent person dies. That's the risk you take when you are around guns. Also, that's the risk you take when you aren't educated about guns and shooting.

[rufuspaul]

How about a regular fight that leads to someone pulling out thier gun and shooting?

I was at a frat party in college when one of the brothers thought it would be cool to fire his shotgun into the air. If other people were carrying handguns then it could have gotten bad.

[sunsfan1357]

How about a regular fight that leads to someone pulling out thier gun and shooting?
That as well. To me it seems like there are situations that this law can lead to that would make the cons outweigh the pros. I think the scenario you described has a greater chance of happening with someone screaming "self defense!" than there is of someone stopping a massacre. What if someone did get in a fight, pull out a gun, and started shooting in self defense? It's not what the law was intended for, but isn't that what a person gets a gun for in the first place?


What happens? An innocent person dies. That's the risk you take when you are around guns. Also, that's the risk you take when you aren't educated about guns and shooting.

So simply put an innocent person dies? Wasn't the purpose of this thing to STOP innocent people from dying? People being uneducated about guns has nothing to do with the topic since these people have permits and thus are educated about to how use a gun. Just because someone knows how to use it doesn't mean that they can't miss and shoot someone who is just an innocent bystander. It's not like everyone else on the campus is CHOOSING to take the risk of being around guns.

[AmoebaD]

hawker you seem to be the exemplar bakersfield guy. if you would ever like to hit up union and get some noodle soup, lemme know. we could double up on some skank after the food if you want. my treat. i don't know all the good restaurants but little saigon has the best asian food, regardless of the zombies surrounding that area. that broken windows theory is overrated anyway.

i don't know much about texas, but i have family there. but if you are ever in the kern, show me a good time. we can shoot the breeze.

[thejumpa]

So simply put an innocent person dies? Wasn't the purpose of this thing to STOP innocent people from dying? People being uneducated about guns has nothing to do with the topic since these people have permits and thus are educated about to how use a gun. Just because someone knows how to use it doesn't mean that they can't miss and shoot someone who is just an innocent bystander. It's not like everyone else on the campus is CHOOSING to take the risk of being around guns.

First of all, having a permit doesn't necessarily mean you are educated about guns or make good decisions with them. I know a guy who got his permit the minute he hit 21, carries his .40 cal everywhere, and is trigger happy. I would not be surprised if he ****ed around and pulled it out just to show someone he was boss......not smart.

You're right about the person who IS educated being able to miss though. Think of it like this......your friend's life is in danger and if you don't make a move and shoot, he's dead. There is another person in the vicinity so there is a chance you could miss and hit the wrong person. Do you shoot or freeze up?

[Automajic23]

stupid idea. allow college students to get a CHL and carry one on campus? LMAO. I could imagine the hype @ every single college party, college event, college sport. I can picture the cocky beef headed frat boys pulling out their piece as a sign of their macho to other guys. This would be the next dumbest thing ever.


Although it is logical and would put arms in the hands of good people. Then again, I didn't know the answer to bad guys with guns was to give good guys with guns. Nice it'll be like the wild wild west :rockon:

[sunsfan1357]

First of all, having a permit doesn't necessarily mean you are educated about guns or make good decisions with them. I know a guy who got his permit the minute he hit 21, carries his .40 cal everywhere, and is trigger happy. I would not be surprised if he ****ed around and pulled it out just to show someone he was boss......not smart.

You're right about the person who IS educated being able to miss though. Think of it like this......your friend's life is in danger and if you don't make a move and shoot, he's dead. There is another person in the vicinity so there is a chance you could miss and hit the wrong person. Do you shoot or freeze up?

If having a permit doesn't mean you are educated about guns then its all the more reason to not allow them on a campus, however, I'm sure in obtaining a concealed weapons permit you have to get education classes about how and when to use guns and other proper gun safety training. Does it mean they'll adhere to it? No but they are educated about it if they get a CWP because by law they have to be.

Personally? I'd probably shoot, however that has little to do with what's being discussed. The lawmakers are implementing the law so someone can possibly stop a massacre and stop the killing of innocent civilians. What if an innocent is killed then? Do they get charged with anything? What happens with the school, are they held liable? Me shooting to save a friend and accidentally killing someone else only adds complications to these kinds of situations and there hasn't been enough of a precedent that civilians stop these kinds of things to warrant such a law taking place.

[thejumpa]

No doubt. I know it may sound like I want guns on campuses, but I don't. Personally, I've been in situations where I could have benefited from having a gun. Obviously I made it out without one, but getting caught slippin is no fun.....

BTW you would be surprised on how easy it is to get a CWP. In my state, 60 bucks and an application gets you one. No classes or anything. Any idiot can get one......

[Hawker]

This is stupid. I hope private colleges still keep them off their campuses. No one with a concealed weapon is gonna stop mass killings at a university. When has there ever been a report of a private citizen with a concealed weapon stopping a public shooting by using his/her weapon?

-Appalachian School of Law Shooting:A dude that failed law school (non CHL person with psychological problems) shot and killed 3 people and injured 3 and was subdued by two ARMED students and one unarmed student until police came

Compare to VT Shooting that was significantly worse.

-Pearl High School shooting: A student shot 3 and wounded 7 and the AP grabbed his pistol out of his glove compartment and subdued the shooter until police came.

Compare to Columbine HS shooting which was significantly worse.

[Hawker]

hawker you seem to be the exemplar bakersfield guy. if you would ever like to hit up union and get some noodle soup, lemme know. we could double up on some skank after the food if you want. my treat. i don't know all the good restaurants but little saigon has the best asian food, regardless of the zombies surrounding that area. that broken windows theory is overrated anyway.

i don't know much about texas, but i have family there. but if you are ever in the kern, show me a good time. we can shoot the breeze.

I'm originally from Texas. I was only in Bakes this past summer. I'm not aware of the union lol...I'll hit you up at Buck Owen's for brunch on sunday though.

[Hawker]

And for all the people that are saying, "it will be like the wild wild west.." or "I can imagine every single college party where everyone brings their guns..."

Newsflash: There are already schools in the nation that allow CHLs on campus and guess what...there have been ZERO accidents and ZERO "wild wild west" shootouts.

[rufuspaul]

And for all the people that are saying, "it will be like the wild wild west.." or "I can imagine every single college party where everyone brings their guns..."

Newsflash: There are already schools in the nation that allow CHLs on campus and guess what...there have been ZERO accidents and ZERO "wild wild west" shootouts.

Must be some lameass schools.

[Hawker]

stupid idea. allow college students to get a CHL and carry one on campus? LMAO. I could imagine the hype @ every single college party, college event, college sport. I can picture the cocky beef headed frat boys pulling out their piece as a sign of their macho to other guys. This would be the next dumbest thing ever.


Although it is logical and would put arms in the hands of good people. Then again, I didn't know the answer to bad guys with guns was to give good guys with guns. Nice it'll be like the wild wild west :rockon:

Ya, you're right. The best way to fight 100 people with guns is 100 people without guns.

[kentatm]

I dont think this should pass at all.

And Hawker I am sorry but its not in the Constitution to just run around all over the place with guns. Read the WHOLE thing.



A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

gun rights people LOVE to ignore that first part.

[White Chocolate]

gun rights people LOVE to ignore that first part.


Thing with that part is what well-regulated consists of. It can be interpreted in many ways.

[kentatm]

Thing with that part is what well-regulated consists of. It can be interpreted in many ways.


I dont see how you can interpret well regulated MILITIA as it being ok to carry a gun on a school campus.

[Smokee]

This is one of the dumbest ideas i've ever seen taken seriously, i mean ever. I can't even believe the universities in Texas are buying into this either. I'd think they would be strongly against this. I'm going to look forward to the Republican retards eating crow when there are multiples of accidental shootings, and that one school shooter that does happen to go on a rampage in Texas at some point causing less deaths than fellow students when its all said and done.

All i know is the politicians and gun advocates pushing for this, better be putting their careers on the line here if it backfires. Someones heads better roll, hopefully the stupidity of the demographics that actually believes in crap like this should lose their voting rights :ohwell: I don't think there is a surer thing than this idea ending up in more tragedy, and there better be people who are being held accountable for the push to do it.

[White Chocolate]

I dont see how you can interpret well regulated MILITIA as it being ok to carry a gun on a school campus.


If it's being considered, then I guess the interpretation is pretty vague.

[Smokee]

And for all the people that are saying, "it will be like the wild wild west.." or "I can imagine every single college party where everyone brings their guns..."

Newsflash: There are already schools in the nation that allow CHLs on campus and guess what...there have been ZERO accidents and ZERO "wild wild west" shootouts.


Which ones? And how many students are visibly packing like they would be doing in Texas? Be specific, because that sounds a lot like exaggerated bull**** from gun proponents.

[kentatm]

I just dont see this happening.

There are far too many Texans who either remember the University of Texas tower shootings or have studied them for this horsesh!t to pass.

[DeuceWallaces]

-Appalachian School of Law Shooting:A dude that failed law school (non CHL person with psychological problems) shot and killed 3 people and injured 3 and was subdued by two ARMED students and one unarmed student until police came

Compare to VT Shooting that was significantly worse.

-Pearl High School shooting: A student shot 3 and wounded 7 and the AP grabbed his pistol out of his glove compartment and subdued the shooter until police came.

Compare to Columbine HS shooting which was significantly worse.

As always both your examples suck because you don't know how to analyze situations without bias.

The guy in App St was already out of bullets and had his hands up before the guys with guns came back.

The Pearl high shooting: The culprit was already finished and getting in his truck on the way home when the vice principle retrieved his gun.

No lives were saved by private citizens with guns.

[Hawker]

This was finally passed in Texas.

[Hawker]

I just dont see this happening.

There are far too many Texans who either remember the University of Texas tower shootings or have studied them for this horsesh!t to pass.

:lol

[warriorfan]

Kentatm is always wrong :oldlol:

[eliteballer]

Absolutely ridiculous idea.

[Hawker]

Absolutely ridiculous idea.

:lol

It's been in existence in many states for awhile and fear mongers have been proven wrong.

[NumberSix]

I'm worried about people having hands on campus. What if everybody just starts punching and strangling each other?

[UK2K]

If you've got a CHL, you should be allowed to carry on campus.

I posted a study just yesterday that CHL holders commit, BY FAR, the least amount of crimes.

Anybody with common sense isn't worried about licensed gun owners.