Rank the past 10 MVPs

[BigTicket]

Now that we know who won it this year I thought I would see how people rank it compared to some other MVP seasons, so the topic is simple: Rank the past 10 MVP seasons. You can take into account individual dominance, team success, team strength etc, all the usual stuff.

00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins

Some impressive years in there, especially in the first half.

My own ranking:

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Duncan (02)
#3. Lebron (09)
#4. Garnett (04)
#5. Duncan (03)
#6. Iverson (01)
#7. Dirk (07)
#8. Kobe (08)
#9. Nash (05)
#10. Nash (06)

[Bigsmoke]

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Duncan (02)
#3. Lebron (09)
#4. Garnett (04)
#5. Duncan (03)
#6. Iverson (01)
#7. Dirk (07)
#8. Kobe (08)
#9. Nash (05)
#10. Nash (06)

the 07 Dirk won 67 games and you'll still pick the 01 Iverson over that?

:lol

[BigTicket]

the 07 Dirk won 67 games and you'll still pick the 01 Iverson over that?

:lol

Iverson had to do more with less, so yeah. It was one of the picks I could have gone either way on though, maybe I'm unfairly dragging Dirk down a bit because I know what happened afterwards.

[rzp]

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Duncan (02)
#3. Duncan (03)
#4. Dirk (07)
#5. Lebron (09)
#6. Garnett (04)
#7. Kobe (08)
#8. Iverson (01)
#9. Nash (05)
#10. Nash (06)

[Mikaiel]

1. Shaq
2. Duncan (02)
3. Duncan (03)
4. LeBron
5. KG
6. Dirk
7. Kobe
8. AI (Didn't deserve it)
9-10. Nash (Didn't deserve it)

[EricForman]

the 07 Dirk won 67 games and you'll still pick the 01 Iverson over that?

:lol

i know its a regular season award, but AI's 01 playoff run vs Dirk's 07 playoff run.........

[GOBB]

First thread i see when i log on? And its a good one. Awesome.



Here are my rankings (in order). Wasnt easy thats for sure. More easier for me to rank Dirk, Kobe, both Nash's lower than the others.



00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins
05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins

[crisoner]

Damn no love for Nash? And he won it back to back???

LOL

And it is damn near a crime that Shaq didn't win it twice.

[Fatal9]

1. Shaq '00
2. Duncan '02
3. Garnett '04
4. Duncan '03
5. Kobe '08
6. Lebron '09
7. Dirk '07
8. Nash '06
9. Iverson '01
10. Nash '05

[ruslan]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GOBB again.

Iverson should be top 5

[Slam13]

#1. Shaq
#2. KG
#3. Duncan 02
#4. Duncan 03
#5. Dirk
#6. Lebron
#7. Kobe
#8. AI
#9. Nash 06
#10. Nash 05

[Slam13]

First thread i see when i log on? And its a good one. Awesome.



Here are my rankings (in order). Wasnt easy thats for sure. More easier for me to rank Dirk, Kobe, both Nash's lower than the others.



00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins
05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins

:wtf: AI's stats aren't that good, only good stat there is the 31 PPG all the others suck.

[ruslan]

:wtf: AI's stats aren't that good, only good stat there is the 31 PPG all the others suck.
What does that have to do with anything>?

[Juges8932]

1) Shaq
2) Duncan
3) Duncan
4) Kobe
5) KG
6) LBJ
7) Dirk
8) A.I
9) Nash
10) Nash

[Slam13]

What does that have to do with anything>?
Him ranking AI second?

[GOBB]

Him ranking AI second?

Ohhhhhhhhhh so we rank these past 10 MVP winners based on "stats"? Ok. :rolleyes:

[Slam13]

Ohhhhhhhhhh so we rank these past 10 MVP winners based on "stats"? Ok. :rolleyes:
That's kinda the point of stats, so yes. :hammerhead:

[GOBB]

That's kinda the point of stats, so yes. :hammerhead:

Where are you from? Estonia? :confusedshrug:

[Slam13]

Where are you from? Estonia? :confusedshrug:
Correct.

[hotsizzle]

I know its a regular season MVP award but I frown on the MVP not at least getting to the finals. So the bottom of the list will be all those who didnt get to the finals. Top of the list would be Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Bron (assuming he makes it to the finals).

[Slam13]

I know its a regular season MVP award but I frown on the MVP not at least getting to the finals. So the bottom of the list will be all those who didnt get to the finals. Top of the list would be Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Bron (assuming he makes it to the finals).
Yea IMO the MVP should be both the regular season and the playoffs. Regular season is just the preparation for the playoffs.

[GOBB]

How long have you lived in Estonia?

[Slam13]

How long have you lived in Estonia?
About 18 years:roll:

[vert48]

You can't include Lebron on this list until after the playoffs. I know that the MVP is for the regular season, but the playoffs have a big influence on how people are ranking the MVP's in this thread.

Everyone is putting Nash as 9 and 10. If Nash had won the championship both years he was MVP, he would be in the top 5 for sure.

Shaq and Duncan are both in the top 5, and had they been early round knockouts, they would not be there.

AI went to the finals the year he was MVP, and met the Lakers in the finals, but many people still think he did not deserve it. Image where people would rank that MVP if AI had been knocked out in the first round.

Where would Duncan's 2002 MVP rank if they had been knocked out in the first round, and Kidd had beaten the Lakers in the finals.

[Slam13]

You can't include Lebron on this list until after the playoffs. I know that the MVP is for the regular season, but the playoffs have a big influence on how people are ranking the MVP's in this thread.

Everyone is putting Nash as 9 and 10. If Nash had won the championship both years he was MVP, he would be in the top 5 for sure.

Shaq and Duncan are both in the top 5, and had they been early round knockouts, they would not be there.

AI went to the finals the year he was MVP, and met the Lakers in the finals, but many people still think he did not deserve it. Image where people would rank that MVP if AI had been knocked out in the first round.

Where would Duncan's 2002 MVP rank if they had been knocked out in the first round, and Kidd had beaten the Lakers in the finals.

It is the regular season MVP, I didn't take their playoff appearances to any importance at all.

[GOBB]

Everyone is putting Nash as 9 and 10. If Nash had won the championship both years he was MVP, he would be in the top 5 for sure.


Not even. lol Speaking for myself of course. Him winning a title wouldnt change a thing on my ranking.


About 18 years:roll:

Cool. Are you hoping th NBA expands overseas? What kind of NBA coverage do you guys get?

[Slam13]

Cool. Are you hoping th NBA expands overseas? What kind of NBA coverage do you guys get?
No I am not hoping the NBA would expand overseas, that would be kinda impossible anyway. And we get no coverage here whatsoever, only American channels viewable here are CNN, Fox News and Discovery and that's it, none of the European sports channels show NBA games.

[KenneBell]

So it's a consensus that Nash didn't deserve his MVPs?

My faith in ISH has slightly moved up.

[tastystaci]

:roll: @ Steve Nash being number 9 on most of your lists. The guy turns the Suns from a 29 win team to a 62 win team.:bowdown: You guys are extra retarded and clearly know nothing about basketball. Keep gargling the balls of Kobe and Lebron you short bus basketball fans.

[Bigsmoke]

Everyone is putting Nash as 9 and 10. If Nash had won the championship both years he was MVP, he would be in the top 5 for sure.
.

Nash isnt good enough to make it that far.

how many players with 2 MVPs with no trips to the finals?

[GOBB]

No I am not hoping the NBA would expand overseas, that would be kinda impossible anyway. And we get no coverage here whatsoever, only American channels viewable here are CNN, Fox News and Discovery and that's it, none of the European sports channels show NBA games.

Why are you against NBA expanding there? And no coverage? Ouch, how do you watch the games? Did you see the Bulls vs Celtics first round playoff series?

[GOBB]

:roll: @ Steve Nash being number 9 on most of your lists. The guy turns the Suns from a 29 win team to a 62 win team.:bowdown: You guys are extra retarded and clearly know nothing about basketball. Keep gargling the balls of Kobe and Lebron you short bus basketball fans.

Yes we know nothing about basketball but somehow we are supposed to believe Nash is responsible for the turnaround. Nothing else. :ohwell:

If anyone is getting off the short bus? Its you.

[Slam13]

Why are you against NBA expanding there? And no coverage? Ouch, how do you watch the games? Did you see the Bulls vs Celtics first round playoff series?
Cuz it would kinda suck for the teams to travel overseas, and that would also ruin the name of the NBA

I saw a few games from bad quality streams from atdhe.net, and ofcourse highlights, but all the games are happening @ night time for me, so I can't really watch many live games, only if they are like 12-3 ET.

[Bigsmoke]

:roll: @ Steve Nash being number 9 on most of your lists. The guy turns the Suns from a 29 win team to a 62 win team.:bowdown: You guys are extra retarded and clearly know nothing about basketball. Keep gargling the balls of Kobe and Lebron you short bus basketball fans.

Kidd turned a 26-56 New Jersey Nets team into a team that went to the finals twice in a row.

why cant u gargle on his nuts?

[GOBB]

Cuz it would kinda suck for the teams to travel overseas, and that would also ruin the name of the NBA

I saw a few games from bad quality streams from atdhe.net, and ofcourse highlights, but all the games are happening @ night time for me, so I can't really watch many live games, only if they are like 12-3 ET.

So now we go back to my top 10 MVP list ranked by me. I've watched the game and its players. So I have a better IDEA of thier impact, dominance, significance when it comes to that particular season they won MVP. I dont judge nor base my rankings solely on what stats look MORE COOLER. Its more deeper than that. Besides MVP winners arent given the award for the player in the NBA who has the omg omg omg i got a boner stats. There are a number of factors. And also upon RANKING these MVP there are more factors to consider (some highlighted/listed in the topic creators post).

Dont ever :no: me on my ranking when you havent watched the game when Shaq won his MVP. Dont dare and dont you dare :no: me saying how could I rank AI MVP year over Dirks when you watched neither players MVP season. You watching the game is vastly limited to net feeds where the odds arent great for clear feeds at that. You havent even watched much of one of the best first round matchups of all time. So your NBA knowledge and viewership is limited. You dont have much of an opinion to form against my list.

Yes I set you up. Yes I attacked and scored. And yes my team won the game.


Stop!


Hammer time!



:hammertime:



Cant touch this.



:hammertime:


Cant touch this!!



:pimp:

[tastystaci]

Kidd turned a 26-56 New Jersey Nets team into a team that went to the finals twice in a row.

why cant u gargle on his nuts?

Listen, I respect Kidd, but those Nets teams were garbage, no where near Finals caliber teams. They played in the disgustingly weak East. Nash's Suns would smash Kidd's Nets.

And everyone brings up Nash never making a Finals. Did nobody watch the f*ckin '07 WCF??? Tim Donoghy, a convicted game fixer officiated game 3. A game Amare played 21 minutes because of bogus foul after bogus foul. A series where Amare and Diow were suspended...FOR STEPPING ON THE COURT! The same thing Tim Duncan and Bruce Bowen did in the first qt...with no penalty. We have Rondo throwing dude's into scorer's tables, having flagrant 2's downgraded by Joey f*ckin Crawford, with no suspensions. No, Nash is not good enough to beat the Spurs and David Stern and Stu Jackson and Tim Donoghy. So please just STFU with this Nash never making a Finals. You guys are making me dumber just reading this diarrhea.

[Slam13]

So now we go back to my top 10 MVP list ranked by me. I've watched the game and its players. So I have a better IDEA of thier impact, dominance, significance when it comes to that particular season they won MVP. I dont judge nor base my rankings solely on what stats look MORE COOLER. Its more deeper than that. Besides MVP winners arent given the award for the player in the NBA who has the omg omg omg i got a boner stats. There are a number of factors. And also upon RANKING these MVP there are more factors to consider (some highlighted/listed in the topic creators post).

Dont ever :no: me on my ranking when you havent watched the game when Shaq won his MVP. Dont dare and dont you dare :no: me saying how could I rank AI MVP year over Dirks when you watched neither players MVP season. You watching the game is vastly limited to net feeds where the odds arent great for clear feeds at that. You havent even watched much of one of the best first round matchups of all time. So your NBA knowledge and viewership is limited. You dont have much of an opinion to form against my list.

Yes I set you up. Yes I attacked and scored. And yes my team won the game.


Stop!


Hammer time!



:hammertime:



Cant touch this.



:hammertime:


Cant touch this!!



:pimp:
I think you set yourself up there buddy:hammerhead: your insecurity is an obvious one. I understand you are this oldschool NBA fan, but you also base your opinion on appeal, everybody has their opinion and I just stated mine, that is what forums are for. I still love you tho :oldlol:

[Bigsmoke]

Listen, I respect Kidd, but those Nets teams were garbage, no where near Finals caliber teams. They played in the disgustingly weak East. Nash's Suns would smash Kidd's Nets.

And everyone brings up Nash never making a Finals. Did nobody watch the f*ckin '07 WCF??? Tim Donoghy, a convicted game fixer officiated game 3. A game Amare played 21 minutes because of bogus foul after bogus foul. A series where Amare and Diow were suspended...FOR STEPPING ON THE COURT! The same thing Tim Duncan and Bruce Bowen did in the first qt...with no penalty. We have Rondo throwing dude's into scorer's tables, having flagrant 2's downgraded by Joey f*ckin Crawford, with no suspensions. No, Nash is not good enough to beat the Spurs and David Stern and Stu Jackson and Tim Donoghy. So please just STFU with this Nash never making a Finals. You guys are making me dumber just reading this diarrhea.

but Nash plays horrible defense...

I cant say the same about Kidd. so u think Kidd couldnt win if he was that point guard for the 2005 Suns?

[Mikaiel]

:roll: @ Steve Nash being number 9 on most of your lists. The guy turns the Suns from a 29 win team to a 62 win team.:bowdown: You guys are extra retarded and clearly know nothing about basketball. Keep gargling the balls of Kobe and Lebron you short bus basketball fans.

And the Mavs actually got better when they got rid of Nash. Some MVP he was. You'd think they would have gotten worse since he was the Most Valuable Player :rolleyes:

Mavs in 03-04 with Nash : 52-30
Mavs in 04-05 without Nash : 58-24
Mavs in 05-06 without Nash : 60-24 and got to the Finals

Meanwhile :

Heat in 03-04 without Shaq : 42-40
Heat in 04-05 with Shaq : 59-23 (Could have made it to the Finals if not for injuries)
Heat in 05-06 with Shaq : 52-30 and won the title

Lakers in 03-04 with Shaq : 56-26 and lost in the Finals
Lakers in 04-05 without Shaq : 34-48 and missed the playoffs

Who was more valuable ?

[GOBB]

I think you set yourself up there buddy:hammerhead: your insecurity is an obvious one. I understand you are this oldschool NBA fan, but you also base your opinion on appeal, everybody has their opinion and I just stated mine, that is what forums are for. I still love you tho :oldlol:

Appeal? :wtf:

You base your opinion on "stats". You look at the past 10 MVP winners and go "Hmmm whose stats look AWESOME" then rank accordingly down to "His stats are blah/weak compared to everyone elses!".

Yes everyone has thier opinion. Its just that yours doesnt hold much weight. You cant even argue, back up or support your opinion. Thats the issue. I mean you are the person who said AI stats arent even good outside the ppg. The rest "suck", as if that holds any relevance whatsoever. If you witnessed AI that season you wouldnt have typed what you did. You do realize there were other players whose "stats" looked better across the board right? Yet they were not the MVP nor were close to winning it. Shaq is argued as a player who could have took it home that year. Did you know that? Or did I need to supply STATS for you again? :rolleyes:

I made my point. Dont criticize my list with your opinion when you really cant form much of one due to lack of actually WATCHING basketball the past 10 seasons. How's that? I dont watch hockey, but i could take stats and throw my "opinion" around only to have it b!tchslapped (like i did with you) back to me. Mind your manners, sit back and ask questions so you can be enlightened. Thats what I would do in your shoes.

Are you going to watch tonights playoff games or will it be too late for you? Or the net feeds too fuzzy wuzzy and unclear :(

:violin:


:pimp:

[tastystaci]

Yes we know nothing about basketball but somehow we are supposed to believe Nash is responsible for the turnaround. Nothing else. :ohwell:

If anyone is getting off the short bus? Its you.

'03 Roster - 29 wins w/Dantoni coaching 61 games(21-40)

Shaun Marion -
Joe Johnson -
Amare Stoudamire -
Stephon Marbury
Leandro Barbosa
Anfernee Hardaway
Tom Gugliotta -
Antonio Mcdyess -

'04 Roster - 62 wins

Shaun Marion -
Joe Johnson -
Amare Stoudamire -
Stephon Marbury
Leandro Barbosa
Quentin Richardson
Steve Nash
Jim Jackson
Stephen Hunter

What's the big difference here? Oh, the addition of Q-rich :roll: No. It was Steve Nash. And before you bring up injuries as a reason for their '03 failures...Marion(79 games played), Joe Johnson(82 games played), Amare(55 games played, Barbosa(70 games played).

:bowdown: Steve Nash :bowdown:

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Duncan (02)
#3. Garnett (04)
#4. Lebron (09)
#5. Iverson (01)
#6. Duncan (03)
#7. Kobe (08)
#8. Nash (05)
#9. Nash (06)
#10. Dirk (07)

[Slam13]

Appeal? :wtf:

You base your opinion on "stats". You look at the past 10 MVP winners and go "Hmmm whose stats look AWESOME" then rank accordingly down to "His stats are blah/weak compared to everyone elses!".

Yes everyone has thier opinion. Its just that yours doesnt hold much weight. You cant even argue, back up or support your opinion. Thats the issue. I mean you are the person who said AI stats arent even good outside the ppg. The rest "suck", as if that holds any relevance whatsoever. If you witnessed AI that season you wouldnt have typed what you did. You do realize there were other players whose "stats" looked better across the board right? Yet they were not the MVP nor were close to winning it. Shaq is argued as a player who could have took it home that year. Did you know that? Or did I need to supply STATS for you again? :rolleyes:

I made my point. Dont criticize my list with your opinion when you really cant form much of one due to lack of actually WATCHING basketball the past 10 seasons. How's that? I dont watch hockey, but i could take stats and throw my "opinion" around only to have it b!tchslapped (like i did with you) back to me. Mind your manners, sit back and ask questions so you can be enlightened. Thats what I would do in your shoes.

Are you going to watch tonights playoff games or will it be too late for you? Or the net feeds too fuzzy wuzzy and unclear :(

:violin:


:pimp:
Look man, respect is given where respect is due.

It's not like I don't know anything about 01 AI, or Millenium Shaq, I'm pretty sure you have stated your opinion about Wilt, Russel, and other oldschool players even tho you have probably never seen them play. Highlights and downloadable games are enough to get an idea of something. And you probably think that I haven't seen a real basketball game ever in my life, or have hold a basketball. :hammerhead:

Now state your reasoning why AI was ranked so high over more deserving players, let's see it. Just because AI is basically a midget in NBA standards doesn't make him more valuable, he is undeniably very skilled, much more so than Shaq, but this is the NBA we are talking about.

[Legend D]

First thread i see when i log on? And its a good one. Awesome.



Here are my rankings (in order). Wasnt easy thats for sure. More easier for me to rank Dirk, Kobe, both Nash's lower than the others.



00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins
05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins

Even Iverson is shouting 'get of my dick'. AI's dick is so far up your face that you've lost the ability to see anything else.

DON thinks Iverson is closer to the bottom of the list than the top.

[tastystaci]

And the Mavs actually got better when they got rid of Nash. Some MVP he was. You'd think they would have gotten worse since he was the Most Valuable Player :rolleyes:

Mavs in 03-04 with Nash : 52-30
Mavs in 04-05 without Nash : 58-24
Mavs in 05-06 without Nash : 60-24 and got to the Finals

Meanwhile :

Heat in 03-04 without Shaq : 42-40
Heat in 04-05 with Shaq : 59-23 (Could have made it to the Finals if not for injuries)
Heat in 05-06 with Shaq : 52-30 and won the title

Lakers in 03-04 with Shaq : 56-26 and lost in the Finals
Lakers in 04-05 without Shaq : 34-48 and missed the playoffs

Who was more valuable ?

Nash goes over to the 29 win Suns and makes them better than the Mav's. :roll: Please STFU.

[Champion]

Damn no love for Nash? And he won it back to back???

LOL

And it is damn near a crime that Shaq didn't win it twice.

Nash second MVP was better than the last one. The Suns lost Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire. Of course, they picked up Diaw. But imagine if your team loses 26 PPG and 19 PPG, do you think Diaw and Raja is going to cover that. Then again, they helped with other things. But Nash brought a team was typically a seven-man rotation to 54 wins and the WCF. And he did it with Shawn Marion who couldn't do it in Miami.

[GOBB]

Even Iverson is shouting 'get of my dick'. AI's dick is so far up your face that you've lost the ability to see anything else.

DON thinks Iverson is closer to the bottom of the list than the top.


No one cares what you think hiding under a username cowardly lion.



Look man, respect is given where respect is due.

And i cant respect someones whose NBA knowledge is limited. Sorry.

AI's stats aren't that good, only good stat there is the 31 PPG all the others suck.

:no:

[bdreason]

1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3. Duncan (02)
4. Duncan (03)
5. Dirk
6. KG
7. Kobe
8. AI
9. Nash (06)
10. Nash (05)

[Legend D]

No one cares what you think hiding under a username cowardly lion.


DON is not hiding from anyone. DON thinks its idiotic that someone would rank one of the weaker MVP seasons as one of the better ones. That is all.

[Mikaiel]

Nash goes over to the 29 win Suns and makes them better than the Mav's. :roll: Please STFU.

But the Mavs still got better without him. What kind of MVP gets traded and his former team gets better ?

Take a look at this list, it's the difference in wins a team had after an MVP or a soon-to-be MVP left the team :

76ers (Charles Barkley) : -9
Phoenix (Barkley) : -1
Wolves (KG) : -10
76ers (AI) : -3
Lakers (Shaq) : -22
Utah (Malone) : -5
Chicago (MJ) : -2 and -49
Houston (Hakeem) : -17
Houston (Moses Malone) : -32

Dallas (Nash) : +6

And I'm too lazy to check for the pre-1980 MVPs, but I think it's safe to say Nash is the only MVP who made his former team better when he left. What's even worse is that he wasn't even traded, he walked away and the Mavs got nothing in return. And they still got better. Wow, how valuable.

[GOBB]

DON is not hiding from anyone. DON thinks its idiotic that someone would rank one of the weaker MVP seasons as one of the better ones. That is all.

His dominance that year doesnt factor. His impact on the Sixers doesnt factor given they tied for wins 56 with L.A. I follow. :rolleyes:

[Indian guy]

1) Shaq(99-00)
2) LeBron(08-09)
3) Duncan(01-03)
4) Garnett(03-04)
5) Kobe(07-08)
6) Nash(05-07)
7) Iverson(00-01)
8) Dirk(06-07)

[tastystaci]

But the Mavs still got better without him. What kind of MVP gets traded and his former team gets better ?

Take a look at this list, it's the difference in wins a team had after an MVP or a soon-to-be MVP left the team :

76ers (Charles Barkley) : -9
Phoenix (Barkley) : -1
Wolves (KG) : -10
76ers (AI) : -3
Lakers (Shaq) : -22
Utah (Malone) : -5
Chicago (MJ) : -2 and -49
Houston (Hakeem) : -17
Houston (Moses Malone) : -32

Dallas (Nash) : +6

And I'm too lazy to check for the pre-1980 MVPs, but I think it's safe to say Nash is the only MVP who made his former team better when he left. What's even worse is that he wasn't even traded, he walked away and the Mavs got nothing in return. And they still got better. Wow, how valuable.

Do you just copy and paste this in every Steve Nash arguement? :roll: Hey genius, everyone on your list WAS an MVP when they left. Steve Nash was not. You = fail. When a team gets rid of an MVP, aren't they usually rebuilding? Or is that too complex of a thought for your copy and paste mentality. And one more time, Nash wasn't an MVP when he left, they weren't rebuilding, and Nash made the Phoenix Suns, who had 29 wins without him, into a better team than Dirk and the Mav's.

...waiting patiently for your copy and paste response. :rockon:

[White Chocolate]

Now that we know who won it this year I thought I would see how people rank it compared to some other MVP seasons, so the topic is simple: Rank the past 10 MVP seasons. You can take into account individual dominance, team success, team strength etc, all the usual stuff.

00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins

Some impressive years in there, especially in the first half.

My own ranking:

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Duncan (02)
#3. Lebron (09)
#4. Garnett (04)
#5. Duncan (03)
#6. Iverson (01)
#7. Dirk (07)
#8. Kobe (08)
#9. Nash (05)
#10. Nash (06)


1)Shaq('00)
2)LeBron('09)
3)Duncan('02)
4)Iverson('01)
5)Garnett('04)
6)Duncan('03)
7)Nowitzki('07)
8)Kobe('08)
9)Nash('05)
10)Nash('06)

[Mikaiel]

Hey genius, everyone on your list WAS an MVP when they left.

All right then

76ers (Charles Barkley) : -9
Buffalo Braves (Moses Malone) : -16
Dallas (Nash) : +6

Those are the only 3 guys who got traded and then got their 1st MVP with their new team.

[Bigsmoke]

'03 Roster - 29 wins w/Dantoni coaching 61 games(21-40)

Shaun Marion -
Joe Johnson -
Amare Stoudamire -
Stephon Marbury
Leandro Barbosa
Anfernee Hardaway
Tom Gugliotta -
Antonio Mcdyess -

'04 Roster - 62 wins

Shaun Marion -
Joe Johnson -
Amare Stoudamire -
Stephon Marbury
Leandro Barbosa
Quentin Richardson
Steve Nash
Jim Jackson
Stephen Hunter

What's the big difference here? Oh, the addition of Q-rich :roll: No. It was Steve Nash. And before you bring up injuries as a reason for their '03 failures...Marion(79 games played), Joe Johnson(82 games played), Amare(55 games played, Barbosa(70 games played).

:bowdown: Steve Nash :bowdown:

Marbury was playing for the Knicks for most of that season. The Hawks came from one of the worst team in the league to a playoffs team and then to a 4th best team in the East next year once they got Mike Bibby. does that makes Bibby their best player?

[mattevans11]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GOBB again.

Iverson should be top 5


Iverson should be so far off that list that it isnt even funny. worst MVP of all time

[tastystaci]

All right then

76ers (Charles Barkley) : -9
Buffalo Braves (Moses Malone) : -16
Dallas (Nash) : +6

Those are the only 3 guys who got traded and then got their 1st MVP with their new team.

lol. What a failure you are. You're mom must be so proud :lol

#1) Moses played 2 games with the Buffalo Braves for a whopping 6 minutes total :roll: You sir = fail beyond comprehension.

#2) Barkley went to a 53 win Suns team, made them a 62 win team

Nash went to a 29 win Sun's team, made them a 62 team.

Nash's +33 game impact > Barkley's +9 game impact

Now, please, just stop. :lol

[Bush4Ever]

Iverson had to do more with less, so yeah. It was one of the picks I could have gone either way on though, maybe I'm unfairly dragging Dirk down a bit because I know what happened afterwards.

The 76ers beat on a piss-weak East that year (40-14 record against the east).

Against the West (more similar to the level of competition Dirk mostly faced during his MVP year), they went 16-12, which if I recall correctly is about a 47 win pace.

[Mikaiel]

You're mom must be so proud :lol

:roll: :roll: :roll:


Moses played 2 games with the Buffalo Braves for a whopping 6 minutes total :roll: You sir = fail beyond comprehension.

Yeah sorry, I didn't see he didn't play for them the previous year, my bad.

But my point is still the same, how can you have an MVP walk away from your team without getting anything in return and you actually get better ? They replaced him with Jason Terry and they won 6 more games, and they got to the Finals the year after that. If Nash was this good, you'd think they would have gotten worse. Or that they would have tried a little harder to sign him ...

[tastystaci]

Marbury was playing for the Knicks for most of that season. The Hawks came from one of the worst team in the league to a playoffs team and then to a 4th best team in the East next year once they got Mike Bibby. does that makes Bibby their best player?

I honestly have no idea what your asking. Is he the best player on the Hawks? No, not even close. That would be Joe Johnson. You've completely lost me. What were you trying to get at?

[Bigsmoke]

I honestly have no idea what your asking. Is he the best player on the Hawks? No, not even close. That would be Joe Johnson. You've completely lost me. What were you trying to get at?

The Hawks were a crappy team before Bibby was added on to the list. Have u watched any of their games 2 years ago? They didnt start "winning" until he added Bibby onto their team and now they have the 4th highest record in the East.

i feel the same way about Nash with the Suns. Nash isnt their best player but he helped them achieve something that they couldnt before hand.

just because they helped doensnt mean they are the best.

[tastystaci]

:
But my point is still the same, how can you have an MVP walk away from your team without getting anything in return and you actually get better ? They replaced him with Jason Terry and they won 6 more games, and they got to the Finals the year after that. If Nash was this good, you'd think they would have gotten worse. Or that they would have tried a little harder to sign him ...

They didn't get nothing? They added Jason Terry and Devin Harris. Not to mention the emergence of Josh Howard into the starting line-up. Your hatred for Nash is clouding the thinking side of your brain. All of your other examples, the teams were giving up and rebuilding by getting rid of their MVP or "future MVP" players.

The Mavs actually added perennial 6th man of the year Jason Terry, along with Devin Harris who would later be traded for Jason Kidd straight up. And people actually think the Nets got the best of that trade :roll: :roll: So again, your argument looks good on paper, but fails in dramatic fashion in the world of reality. Good try though...seriously.

[tastystaci]

The Hawks were a crappy team before Bibby was added on to the list. Have u watched any of their games 2 years ago? They didnt start "winning" until he added Bibby onto their team and now they have the 4th highest record in the East.

i feel the same way about Nash with the Suns. Nash isnt their best player but he helped them achieve something that they couldnt before hand.

just because they helped doensnt mean they are the best. Why couldnt Nash make it into the playoffs this year if he was so great?

You just made my argument. What do you think MVP stands for? I'll help you out...it's MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. It's not the best player, it's not who would win in a one-on-one battle. It's the most valuable.

[GOBB]

The 76ers beat on a piss-weak East that year (40-14 record against the east).

Against the West (more similar to the level of competition Dirk mostly faced during his MVP year), they went 16-12, which if I recall correctly is about a 47 win pace.

You defeat who is in front of you.

[Mikaiel]

They didn't get nothing? They added Jason Terry and Devin Harris.

They didn't get anything for Nash. He left and they got nothing in return. They got Jason Terry because they traded for him. 2 separate things.

[zay_24]

MVP's should be the guy who does the most with his team or more with less.
Personally, I would have shaq first, but only put garnett SLIGHTLY below him.
Then AI.
Seriously, the sixers had absolutely no reason to be in the finals, at all.

[big baller]

Even Iverson is shouting 'get of my dick'. AI's dick is so far up your face that you've lost the ability to see anything else.

DON thinks Iverson is closer to the bottom of the list than the top.



:roll: :roll:

[Duncan21formvp]

Now that we know who won it this year I thought I would see how people rank it compared to some other MVP seasons, so the topic is simple: Rank the past 10 MVP seasons. You can take into account individual dominance, team success, team strength etc, all the usual stuff.

00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins

Some impressive years in there, especially in the first half.

My own ranking:

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Duncan (02)
#3. Lebron (09)
#4. Garnett (04)
#5. Duncan (03)
#6. Iverson (01)
#7. Dirk (07)
#8. Kobe (08)
#9. Nash (05)
#10. Nash (06)

Shaq 2000
Duncan 2003
Duncan 2002
Lebron 2009
Dirk 2007

[Foster5k]

All I know is... Shaq>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the rest. :lol

[Al Thornton]

Damn no love for Nash? And he won it back to back???

LOL

And it is damn near a crime that Shaq didn't win it twice.

I think he deserved it in 05 but not in 06 it should have been Kobes.

[Bush4Ever]

You defeat who is in front of you.

Many people that year beat "who was in front of them", beat better teams, and had better individual seasons to boot.

Iverson's MVP was one of the weakest in recent memory and the fact that he played in one of the weakest conferences in modern NBA history is not irrelevant, especially when they were extraordinarily average against the West. That is a very relevant point, no matter how you slice it.

[GOBB]

Many people that year beat "who was in front of them", beat better teams, and had better individual seasons to boot.

Iverson's MVP was one of the weakest in recent memory and the fact that he played in one of the weakest conferences in modern NBA history is not irrelevant, especially when they were extraordinarily average against the West. That is a very relevant point, no matter how you slice it.

Right thats why the Sixers played the Lakers in the NBA Finals tougher than any mighty Western Conference team did in the playoffs? :oldlol:

And how many players had better individual seasons to boot? Like to see this.

Record vs the West was above .500. If 3gms above .500 = extraordinarily average. Then I'm glad you arent a teacher/professor. How else would anyone pass your class.

[Bush4Ever]

Right thats why the Sixers played the Lakers in the NBA Finals tougher than any mighty Western Conference team did in the playoffs? :oldlol:

And how many players had better individual seasons to boot? Like to see this.

Record vs the West was above .500. If 3gms above .500 = extraordinarily average. Then I'm glad you arent a teacher/professor. How else would anyone pass your class.

This isn't a debatable point. The east was weak, and the Sixers fatten their record against the weak east.

The East won 46 percent of their games. The West won 54 percent.

The Sixers won at a 60 game win pace against the east, 46 game win pace against the west. Those are cold hard facts.

If you want to count a 46 win pace as anything but being very slightly above average, be my guest. Most years, 46 win teams are first round cannon fodder in the playoffs.

[TheGreatDeraj]

00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins

[GOBB]

You're toying with stats to suit your argument. You fail to acknowledge injuries. You fail to acknowledge how the Sixers played with Theo vs Mutombo (whom the Sixers had to get adjusted to playing with). There are variables you dont consider that take your so called cold hard facts and turn them into Jello puddin. You still ignore the Sixers handling the Lakers in the NBA finals better than ANY Western Conference team L.A faced. Why is that? If the East is weak and Sixers padded thier record on the weak. Especially when you put consider extraordinarily average record against the West. Oh and insert thier "pace win total" like thats actually relevant especially when you continue to ignore variables in this equation.

Where are these players who performed better than AI individually? I mean you can calculate the records. But you cant supply something simple or are you currently lookin this up? I dont know. The argument isnt that great brudder.

[GOBB]

00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins

Mr. Spiteful has entered the building folks. ahahahaaaaa

[Bush4Ever]

You're toying with stats to suit your argument. You fail to acknowledge injuries. You fail to acknowledge how the Sixers played with Theo vs Mutombo (whom the Sixers had to get adjusted to playing with). There are variables you dont consider that take your so called cold hard facts and turn them into Jello puddin. You still ignore the Sixers handling the Lakers in the NBA finals better than ANY Western Conference team L.A faced. Why is that? If the East is weak and Sixers padded thier record on the weak. Especially when you put consider extraordinarily average record against the West. Oh and insert thier "pace win total" like thats actually relevant especially when you continue to ignore variables in this equation.

Where are these players who performed better than AI individually? I mean you can calculate the records. But you cant supply something simple or are you currently lookin this up? I dont know. The argument isnt that great brudder.


Yes, I'm sure other teams don't have to deal with things like "injuries" and changed rotations/trades. Yeah, that pokes a giant hole in the idea that the ENTIRE EASTERN CONFERENCE was weaker than the ENTIRE Western Conference.

In 2001 all the stars aligned for Iverson. He got a pathetically weak Eastern Conference and a team tailored made for him and his many weaknesses.

And he still almost chucked it away in the playoffs. Thank goodness his team could bail him out of games like this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105130TOR.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105200PHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105060PHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105110TOR.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105220PHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105240PHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105280MIL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105300PHI.html

[GOBB]

You're not answering my questions. Its ok tho. Just answer me this ok?


NBA is deep in history. Outside of AI winning an MVP in the weakest conference in modern day history (so dramatic). What other MVP winners did so at the hands of a WEAK Conference. I'm all ears. It just seems AI is the ONLY MVP WINNER that gets discredited because of the state the Eastern Conference was in. So I'd love to know what other MVP winners won MVP in a weak conference. Or those guys dont exist? Wait I'm sure this is the counter. There were guys who won MVPs in weak conference but in comparison to AI...










*drumroll*

























...[ish fav saying]ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE[/ish fav saying]

[Bush4Ever]

You're not answering my questions. Its ok tho. Just answer me this ok?


NBA is deep in history. Outside of AI winning an MVP in the weakest conference in modern day history (so dramatic). What other MVP winners did so at the hands of a WEAK Conference. I'm all ears. It just seems AI is the ONLY MVP WINNER that gets discredited because of the state the Eastern Conference was in. So I'd love to know what other MVP winners won MVP in a weak conference. Or those guys dont exist? Wait I'm sure this is the counter. There were guys who won MVPs in weak conference but in comparison to AI...


I'm not answering your questions because they are stupid and easily refuted.

As to your "Philly played the Lakers tougher than any western team" claim.

Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size


As to your "who was better" question, Shaq was better.

29/13/4/3 on 57 percent shooting with elite (second all-defensive team) defense? Yes.

[Mdog1]

Kareem won MVP on a sub .500 team.

[Y2Gezee]

I'm actually kinda hesitant to rank Lebron until his season is done. But, I'll do it anyway. :D


00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
extremely tough choice between these 2, I almost want to give it to Kobe as he definitely sacrificed some numbers too, but I won't.
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins

[Bush4Ever]

Kareem won MVP on a sub .500 team.



Those types of cases are clearly the exception to the rule. By a long shot.

[Mdog1]

I honestly have to put Duncan in 03 as my number one if I am doing rankings. He won and that is the main goal.

Duncan 03
Shaq 00
Duncan 02
Garnett 04
LeBron 09
Kobe 08
AI 01
Nash 05
Dirk 07
Nash 06

[Mdog1]

Those types of cases are clearly the exception to the rule. By a long shot.
Agreed, but that is easily the weakest MVP winner ever (no offense to KAJ).

[GOBB]

I'm not answering your questions because they are stupid and easily refuted.

Nice out. And how convient you mention just Shaq when you claimed "many people" had better individual seasons. But alas you can only find 1 name. The same name many feel got snubbed for the award. Its amazing. Nice cop out by the way. I mean my questions are silly and easily refutable. Yet you cant even list the many players who had better individuals seasons. Just so you dont think I'm putting words in your mouth? Here...


Many people that year beat "who was in front of them", beat better teams, and had better individual seasons to boot.

You cant even answer your own shyt. lol Says alot.

[indiefan23]

People will think I'm retarded I'm sure. I base MVP on the player who was most responsible for their team winning games. Having a great team hurts you as I think your value to the team has to be less when you're not needed as much to win. I've never understood best player on the best team. I think they really need a 'player of the year' award so we can actually reward the player with the 'most value' to their team.

05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins
00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins

So, Kobe is last because his was career achievement award. Garnett/Paul both deserved it much more.

Bron/AI get their place for doing so much with 0 legitimate stars on their team. Iverson's a bit down on the list cuz he did have Mutombo but past his true star level. Duncan should be higher but his teams during those years were ridiculously good/stacked with talent.

Nash gets the top spots for 1. totally revamping a team's culture from one of most intense underachieving teams in the NBA, who lost constantly from bad dysfunctional attitudes to winning with the perfect attitude sharing the ball at an all time level. Then gets #2 for keeping that team at the same level despite losing two of their best players (Joe Johnson/Amare) and replacing them with the end of Atlanta's bench and turning those bench players seamlessly into starters and actually getting clutch production from Tim Thomas. Flame away: he was the team and Nash made anyone winners. Derrick Coleman would have been a beast playing with Nash.

Garnett gets lower on the list, even though I LOVE Garnett, cuz Sam I Am was maybe more key to his team winning then he was, and they had a load of talent that year. Seriously though, Cassall almost was the coach.

Dirk gets low cuz he didn't really deserve it either. The fanboy in my thinks Nash should have gotten it but if he did get it to be fair I'd have to put it near the bottom as the team was stacked from the work he did the previous two seasons.

Shaq gets middle cuz while his team was stacked with lots of talent no one could have replaced Shaq on that team. Possibly Tim Duncan but it would not have been the same. This was the only year Shaq truly tried as hard on defense as he did on Offense and it was devastating. Shaq's one of the few players who the game came so easily to he won or lost championships based on the level of laziness he accepted from himself.

Anyway, I anticipate lots of flames cuz I stand behind Nash's MVP seasons. It makes sense to me though.

[indiefan23]

Everyone is putting Nash as 9 and 10. If Nash had won the championship both years he was MVP, he would be in the top 5 for sure.

Ha, not me. I'm realizing how under rated Nash has really become now. Last on that list is a joke. The only reason most people say Nash didn't deserve it was cuz Kobe scored 35 points a game on a brutal team where he took all the shots and pissed everyone off.

You're right too about Iverson. Wow, its crazy how underrated these two are now. Iverson had a top 2 team with no other stars. Come on people.

[TheGreatDeraj]

Mr. Spiteful has entered the building folks. ahahahaaaaa

I don't like Iverson. I feel he is very overrated.

I feel that you could have put Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Kobe, Ray Allen and probably others on that 76ers team and still gotten to the Finals.

He was the epitome of volume scoring.

[Y2Gezee]

Nash is the worst MVP of all time. And he didn't deserve either. Shaq deserved the first one, Dirk deserved the 2nd. I actually do think he deserved Dirk's though.

[indiefan23]

You're not answering my questions. Its ok tho. Just answer me this ok?


NBA is deep in history. Outside of AI winning an MVP in the weakest conference in modern day history (so dramatic). What other MVP winners did so at the hands of a WEAK Conference. I'm all ears. It just seems AI is the ONLY MVP WINNER that gets discredited because of the state the Eastern Conference was in. So I'd love to know what other MVP winners won MVP in a weak conference. Or those guys dont exist? Wait I'm sure this is the counter. There were guys who won MVPs in weak conference but in comparison to AI...


I don't accept the weakest conference in history thing. There was a lot more parity going on then weakness that year. The west had the most ridiculous powerhouse teams but also had the worst crap teams that they'd beat up on. Houston/Denver/Vancouver/Seattle/clippers/warriors were all very easy outs. Utah still got it's wins but was a middling shell of it's former self as age was visibly breaking down Malone and Stockton. PHX won 50 games but were weak cuz Penny and Gugliotta were hurt all season. Even portland played a wack of it's season without it's center.

So anyway, the West vs East record that year was .524 which is nothing huge. 44 more wins out of 1230 games??? Sorry. I do think the west was better but its not nearly as much as people think. Having close to 50 wins does not alone mean you're team is awesome: how you got those 50 wins counts for more.

[indiefan23]

Nash is the worst MVP of all time. And he didn't deserve either. Shaq deserved the first one, Dirk deserved the 2nd.

I disagree. Miami was Wade's team before and after Shaq arrived. He had already set a winning tone and would have done very, very well had the trade not happened. Nash changed the culture of the entire Phoenix franchise from a team that loses for all the bad reasons to one that wins for all the right reasons.

The second year: Nash lost his team's best defensive AND offensive player and the team still almost made the finals and put up a very impressive regular season, especially once Nash adjusted to the loss. Nash's response was to push 7 other players to career seasons.

His effect on the team those years can not be understated. As an individual he's great but he really wins by making every single player on his team better with his play but more importantly with his attitude which was infectious for the suns. Very few players can do that. Nash, KG, Rasheed. Is there anyone else who's done this to a franchise?


I actually do think he deserved Dirk's though.

I think that's Nash's best individual season and agree there.

[qrich]

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Duncan (02)
#3. Lebron (09)
#4. Duncan (03)
#5. Garnett (04)
#6. Nash (06)
#7. Dirk (07)
#8. Iverson (01)
#9. Kobe (08)
#10. Nash (05)

[bdreason]

I think a lot of you are taking post season success into consideration, which should have no effect on your decision.

For example, Dirk had an amazing regular season, but people are downgrading him because of his Playoff failures, which has no effect on MVP (a regular season award).

[shawbryant]

...
...
...
.
.
.
#10 Dirk

[bdreason]

...
...
...
.
.
.
#10 Dirk


Case in point.

[indiefan23]

I don't like Iverson. I feel he is very overrated.

I feel that you could have put Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Kobe, Ray Allen and probably others on that 76ers team and still gotten to the Finals.

He was the epitome of volume scoring.

Really? T-Mac?

The other 'stars' were Eric Snow, Aaron McKey (who I did think was undervalued) and Mutombo past his prime. Like, Theo Ratlif? Iverson was amazing that year both ways.

[TheGreatDeraj]

Really? T-Mac?

The other 'stars' were Eric Snow, Aaron McKey (who I did think was undervalued) and Mutombo past his prime. Like, Theo Ratlif? Iverson was amazing that year both ways.

Yeah I really think that. I mean, Iverson shot 39% in the playoffs. 42% for the reg. season. Give Tmac/Carter/Kobe that kind of free reign and they all match his success. Iverson and his teamates had a great year and all, but his legacy for that team was overated. A lot of their success was defense, pace and good coaching strategies.

[shawbryant]

Case in point.
He is maybe the exclusive MVP came to my mind immediately whose team won the regular west champ but got eliminated in the 1st round in the playoffs which is considered the real basketball game by most of NBA fans.
Enough?

[indiefan23]

Yeah I really think that. I mean, Iverson shot 39% in the playoffs. 42% for the reg. season. Give Tmac/Carter/Kobe that kind of free reign and they all match his success. Iverson and his teamates had a great year and all, but his legacy for that team was overated. A lot of their success was defense, pace and good coaching strategies.

Hmm... yea, Iverson's FG % wasn't the greatest but ya know, he's also the definition of a rhythm player and you've got to consider how much he goes to the line. Over 10 trips to the line means a lot of bigs are in foul trouble early making the game easy for his own bigs. Iverson is one of the best ever in that department and t-mac has nothing on him for it. Iverson relentlessly attacks the paint. He's a much better player then those guys. Kobe has a case but Carter/T-Mac were both kind of lazy. They didn't produce near his numers in steals or dimes either. Thats not nearly worth the same as the extra .1 or .2 shooting percentage.

[TheGreatDeraj]

Hmm... yea, Iverson's FG % wasn't the greatest but ya know, he's also the definition of a rhythm player and you've got to consider how much he goes to the line. Over 10 trips to the line means a lot of bigs are in foul trouble early making the game easy for his own bigs. Iverson is one of the best ever in that department and t-mac has nothing on him for it. Iverson relentlessly attacks the paint. He's a much better player then those guys. Kobe has a case but Carter/T-Mac were both kind of lazy. They didn't produce near his numers in steals or dimes either. Thats not nearly worth the same as the extra .1 or .2 shooting percentage.



Allen Iverson- fta: 9.9 stls: 2.5 fg%: .420 blk: .1 apg:4.6
Vince carter- fta: 6.7 stls: 1.5 fg%: .465 blk: 1.1 apg:3.9
TMAC------ fta: 7.6 stls: 1.5 fg%: .457 blk: 1.5 apg:4.6

Iverson may have gotten more steals, but his size was an overall disadvantage and he wasn't a shot blocking threat like VC/TMAC were. There assists are pretty much a wash. I'd take the higher fg% over an extra 2 or 3 fta.

[indiefan23]

Allen Iverson- fta: 9.9 stls: 2.5 fg%: .420 blk: .1 apg:4.6
Vince carter- fta: 6.7 stls: 1.5 fg%: .465 blk: 1.1 apg:3.9
TMAC------ fta: 7.6 stls: 1.5 fg%: .457 blk: 1.5 apg:4.6

Iverson may have gotten more steals, but his size was an overall disadvantage and he wasn't a shot blocking threat like VC/TMAC were. There assists are pretty much a wash. I'd take the higher fg% over an extra 2 or 3 fta.

Hmm... point taken but I still say he was a rhythm shooter. Sure, he might have shot 40% for 3 quarters but Iverson was capable of dropping 15 in 5 minutes in the fourth while those guys would fade.

Also, considering both of those guys, Iverson was a warrior and played through everything including broken bones. He still went to the rack and got hammered with the exact same intensity. Carter and T-Mac sunk their teams with soft injuries.

Thats the real difference. Iverson relished and thrived under pressure/competition. Carter/T-Mac faded away from it.

[Stringer Bell]

1. Shaq (00)
2. Duncan (02)
3. Lebron (09)
4. Duncan (03)
5. Garnett (04)
6. Kobe (08)
7. Dirk (07)
8. Iverson (01)
9. Nash (05)
10. Nash (06)

[indiefan23]

1. Shaq (00)
2. Duncan (02)
3. Lebron (09)
4. Duncan (03)
5. Garnett (04)
6. Kobe (08)
7. Dirk (07)
8. Iverson (01)
9. Nash (05)
10. Nash (06)

This has nothing to do with your post, String, ya feel me? But...

I know I'm the only one so far to love Nash for this award, but I just don't really get it. Of everyone on this list Nash was the only one who came to a losing situation and made it a winning one. He transformed the Suns losers into winners just by suiting up and proved it wasn't Amare's emergence by posting the same results without their best defender and their best scorer. How can all you guys have Nash last? Every other person either inherited a winning situation or other personnel came to the team to make it happen. Except somewhat Lebron but he's still had a team slowly built around him by others. I don't see how Nash's selection is not obvious. Think about it.

1. Shaq (00) - needed Phil Jackson to make him recoommit to D and make LA champs
2. Duncan (02) - already had PJ and Robinson's winning team to start with
3. Lebron (09) - even his team needed MO to get there
4. Duncan (03) - PJ and Robinson's team
5. Garnett (04) - Needed Sam Cassall and Spree to get there
6. Kobe (08) - Needed Pau Gasol to get there
7. Dirk (07) - Needed Avery Johnson and a team Nash helped build
8. Iverson (01) - needed Larry Brown to get there
9. Nash (05) - was the only addition to a 29 win team that won 62 freaking games the next year, it was obvious they rebuilt the entire team around Nash with almost no bench. People still claimed it was because Amare et al had gotten better.
10. Nash (06) - Amare/Johnson not present and Nash still fields a top tier team that makes the conference finals and almost the finals.

I just don't get it. Kobe scored more points and therefore got robbed? Kobe's team won 17 fewer games and his true scoring was 27.5+(6.0dimes*2)=37.5ppg. Nash's was 15.5+(11.5*2)=38.5. Nash killed him on FG% at .433 vs .502, anhiliated him from the arc by 10% at .339 vs .431, had .4 less steals and 2.4 fewer boards being 3 inches shorter and playing point guard. It can't be defense either: Kobe's Lakers were the worst defensive team in the league at 30'th and Nash's was the 17'th best. The players on Kobe's team didn't suck either. Butler, Odom, Briant Grant, Sasha, Walton, Divac were all people who knew how to play.

Can someone, anyone, explain to me how Kobe got any first place votes that year? I'm assuming that's why so many people have that year ranked last. How does having a team that won 29 games rebuilt around you, transforming everyone in a franchise from the GM to the ball boys to follow your winning attitude and winning 33 more games not make you the MVP? How can Nash's impact be understated?

[Silverbullit]

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Duncan (02)
#3. Duncan (03)
#4. Lebron (09)
#5. Garnett (04)
#6. Iverson (01)
#7. Nash (06)
#8. Kobe (08)
#9. Nash (05)

Didn't rank Dirk's MVP because of homerism.

[Mikaiel]

He transformed the Suns losers into winners just by suiting up

And he also transformed the Mavs into winners by leaving them ... When you get replaced with Jason Terry and the team gets better, excuse me, but that doesn't scream "Greatness" to me.

Nash had a disguting amount of talent on his teams. These Suns were probably the most talented team of the decade. How many guys can say they've played with an NBA 1st teamer center, a versatile forward who got many All-NBA 3rd team selections, a 6th man of the year, a defensive 1st teamer and a coach of the year ? And btw, with all that talent, they still didn't win sh!t.

Also, I think one his years he got the MVP, he had a game where he didn't even score ...

[Shep]

1. o'neal ('00)
2. james ('09)
3. garnett ('04)
4. duncan ('03)
5. duncan ('02)
6. paul ('08)
7. o'neal ('01)
8. duncan ('06)
9. marion ('05)
10. nowitzki ('07)

[Shepseskaf]

And he also transformed the Mavs into winners by leaving them ... When you get replaced with Jason Terry and the team gets better, excuse me, but that doesn't scream "Greatness" to me.

Nash had a disguting amount of talent on his teams. These Suns were probably the most talented team of the decade. How many guys can say they've played with an NBA 1st teamer center, a versatile forward who got many All-NBA 3rd team selections, a 6th man of the year, a defensive 1st teamer and a coach of the year ? And btw, with all that talent, they still didn't win sh!t.

Also, I think one his years he got the MVP, he had a game where he didn't even score ...
:applause:

I'm sick of people talking about how Nash "deserved" the MVPs. He's being given way too much credit for just being an extremely effective point guard for an offensively explosive team. When was the last time that an MVP wasn't even the best player on his own team?

[Glo41]

It is unbelievable how much Iverson's MVP season is now being trashed just like he's been trashed in just about every thread. He did more with that team then I have ever seen in my life. He was the epitome of an MVP that year imo.

[Norcaliblunt]

It's amazing how much you guys give a crap about another MAN's award. Get a life and win something yourself. Freaking message board losers.

[Sonic R]

my 2

[indiefan23]

And he also transformed the Mavs into winners by leaving them ... When you get replaced with Jason Terry and the team gets better, excuse me, but that doesn't scream "Greatness" to me.

The Mavs got great becasue Nash 'left'? How ridiculous is that?

Umm... as if Jason Terry is a no talent. But there's this rookie the year before Nash left called Josh Howard? He became an all star? Heard of him? There was this rookie the year after he left named Devin Harris. He became an all star. Heard of him? There's this dude named Jerry Stackhouse... he averaged 30/5/4 one year and was a multiple time all star. Even Marquis Daniels was improved after his rookie season. Don Nelson was already getting ready to quit and groom Avery before Nash left. And the clincher: the front office for some reason had all time chucker Antoie Walker on the team.

You're saying that's Nash's fault? Mavs won 6 more games after Nash left with a way better team built of vets and youth playing ball the right way with a coach who didn't have one foot on his fishing boat and one hand on a can of beer.

You're just wrong.


Nash had a disguting amount of talent on his teams. These Suns were probably the most talented team of the decade. How many guys can say they've played with an NBA 1st teamer center, a versatile forward who got many All-NBA 3rd team selections, a 6th man of the year, a defensive 1st teamer and a coach of the year ? And btw, with all that talent, they still didn't win sh!t.

Also, I think one his years he got the MVP, he had a game where he didn't even score ...

They won lots and were 100% robbed, and still managed to kill Kobe even when the refs tried to hand LA the series anyway, which still means jack squat since MVP is a regular season award. Sure the Suns had talent but their whole organization had a losing atmosphere until he got there and changed everything. The entire team was built around him and could barely function when he was injured or on the bench but totally dominated when he was on the floor. How can his undeniable effect and superior stats to Kobe be understated?

[indiefan23]

:applause:

I'm sick of people talking about how Nash "deserved" the MVPs. He's being given way too much credit for just being an extremely effective point guard for an offensively explosive team. When was the last time that an MVP wasn't even the best player on his own team?

Well, I disagree. Nash was the best player on his team and in the league. His 'offensively explosive' team couldn't even come close to being an elite team without him and if he was not their best player how is it they built another team around him without their best defender AND their best scorer (Johnson/Amare), replaced him with the worst team in the league's 11'th/12'th man and Tim Thomas who has done exactly nothing anywhere else, and more then half the team had career seasons (not including Nash), AND, they got closer to the finals then they did a year before missing those players you credit with him winning his first MVP? Explain it.

[indiefan23]

It is unbelievable how much Iverson's MVP season is now being trashed just like he's been trashed in just about every thread. He did more with that team then I have ever seen in my life. He was the epitome of an MVP that year imo.

I totally agree. Iverson was crazy that year. Dominant and unstoppable. The only point I saw someone make was that he shot 42% which really is not that bad. His starting point was Eric Snow... and he made the finals! Any star who pushes his team to the finals and is starting Eric Snow is a serious, seriously valuable player.

[indiefan23]

It's amazing how much you guys give a crap about another MAN's award. Get a life and win something yourself. Freaking message board losers.

Its amazing how much you give a crap about someone giving a crap about that man's award. I don't come to where you waste time at work and knock the dick out of your mouth.

[Mikaiel]

You're saying that's Nash's fault? Mavs won 6 more games after Nash left with a way better team built of vets and youth playing ball the right way with a coach who didn't have one foot on his fishing boat and one hand on a can of beer.

Can you play the right way with Nash ? I don't think so.

And I'm not saying it's Nash's fault. What I'm saying is when you get rid of what's supposed to be an MVP-type talent, even an all-time great since his back-to-back MVP suggest that, you shouldn't be able to get better by adding a rookie (Harris), a guy that never made an all-star team (Terry) and a guy who averaged 13.9 points the year before (Stackhouse)


They won lots and were 100% robbed, and still managed to kill Kobe

They were the 2nd seed, the Lakers were the 7th seed. They were supposed to kill Kobe. But they didn't even do that because the Lakers took them to 7 games one year. And they had a shot at upsetting them.

[indiefan23]

1. o'neal ('00)
2. james ('09)
3. garnett ('04)
4. duncan ('03)
5. duncan ('02)
6. paul ('08)
7. o'neal ('01)
8. duncan ('06)
9. marion ('05)
10. nowitzki ('07)

Heh, nice list. But honestly, I think its Nash 05 and Marion 06. Marion was insane that year. They should have traded Amare for KG. It would have been an automatic title. How do they pass on that?

[Mikaiel]

replaced him with the worst team in the league's 11'th/12'th man

That guy had 2 straight triple doubles when Nash was injured and not playing ...

[indiefan23]

Can you play the right way with Nash ? I don't think so.

And I'm not saying it's Nash's fault. What I'm saying is when you get rid of what's supposed to be an MVP-type talent, even an all-time great since his back-to-back MVP suggest that, you shouldn't be able to get better by adding a rookie (Harris), a guy that never made an all-star team (Terry) and a guy who averaged 13.9 points the year before (Stackhouse)

And a way better coach who hadn't quit on the team? And also subtracting an all time offense breaking chucker in Walker? Yes, you can get better. Stackhouse was injured the year before. He was still a big time player who came through in the clutch repeatedly. The Mavs sank when Stackhouse went down. He was a huge part of them and why they made the finals.


They were the 2nd seed, the Lakers were the 7th seed. They were supposed to kill Kobe. But they didn't even do that because the Lakers took them to 7 games one year. And they had a shot at upsetting them.

The Lakers should not have been a 2 seed. If Kobe played with his team instead of for himself they wouldn't have been. Career low in his 20's for dimess screams ball hog and spotlight stealer.

They had Butler, Odom and a wack of vets and decent rookies. The only reason they had a shot was cuz refs gave the lakers ridiculous calls at home. That's it. I'd say ending the series in a 3 game sweep is what I'd call a kill.

[indiefan23]

That guy had 2 straight triple doubles when Nash was injured and not playing ...

Diaw? Yea and they lost both games by a combined 30 points to a 32-47 team and a 45-37 team. That's my point though, what's yours'?

[Sonic R]

They were the 2nd seed, the Lakers were the 7th seed. They were supposed to kill Kobe. But they didn't even do that because the Lakers took them to 7 games one year. And they had a shot at upsetting them.

The Suns were the first seed (best in league) and were almost upset by the Lakers in a series that went to the edge, with the final game going into overtime… in 1993

Does that make Barkley an unworthy MVP?

[Mikaiel]

And a way better coach who hadn't quit on the team? And also subtracting an all time offense breaking chucker in Walker? Yes, you can get better. Stackhouse was injured the year before. He was still a big time player who came through in the clutch repeatedly. The Mavs sank when Stackhouse went down. He was a huge part of them and why they made the finals.

You're comparing Stackhouse and Walker to a freaking MVP.

Back to back MVPs : Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Moses Malone, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash.

Take out any of these guys out of the equation, and then trade whoever you want, get rid of the coach, do everything you want. Is there a way you actually get better ? No way. But with Nash ? Yes. At the very least we can agree he didn't deserve back-to-back MVPs. It's insulting the history of this game.



The Lakers should not have been a 2 seed.

???


They had Butler, Odom and a wack of vets and decent rookies

They didn't have Butler, they traded him for Kwame Brown ...

[Shepseskaf]

Nash was the best player on his team and in the league.
:roll: :roll:

Seriously, just shut up and don't post again. Your account should be revoked for that gem alone.

[Mikaiel]

[QUOTE=Sonic R]The Suns were the first seed (best in league) and were almost upset by the Lakers in a series that went to the edge, with the final game going into overtime

[indiefan23]

You're comparing Stackhouse and Walker to a freaking MVP.

Uh, you're trying to take a player's non-MVP seasons and use them to evaluate his MVP seasons. You already said "they only added Terry". Now you're saying it was only Stackhouse and Walker. Yes, when you take an MVP (which Nash had not become yet) and put them on a much worse team that team does not do as well. Even though Nash had not peaked yet in his career. And you're ignoring a much more involved coach, Dirk elevating his own game, Josh Howard going to the next level, Jerry Stackhouse joining, Devin Harris being able to contribute right away, offensive chucker Walker going away and most of all a change in style of play that more suited Dirk's skills with those specific players around him. Its not a knock on Nash that everyone ended up in better situations. The way you're talking you seem to think that if they had kept Nash yet made all those improvements the team would not have improved or improved less which is just kind of, well, dumb.


Back to back MVPs : Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Moses Malone, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash.

Take out any of these guys out of the equation, and then trade whoever you want, get rid of the coach, do everything you want. Is there a way you actually get better ? No way. But with Nash ? Yes. At the very least we can agree he didn't deserve back-to-back MVPs. It's insulting the history of this game.

Uh, thats silly. Are you comparing the Celtics quality in that era to the Mavs? Okay, how about this... when Jordan retired they replaced him with a CBA scrub, rebuilt the team around Pippen and only lost 2 more games. Jordan must have sucked huh! Not much better then a CBA scrub. Or no, and you're wrong.

That's beyond the fact that Nash wasn't an MVP when he left Dallas. He was an MVP when he got to PHX. Its pretty obvious he was insulted by Cuban (who was responsible for screwing up the team) and rededicated himself to bring his game to another level.

You're argument that

???

They didn't have Butler, they traded him for Kwame Brown ...[/QUOTE]

[tastystaci]

Uh, you're trying to take a player's non-MVP seasons and use them to evaluate his MVP seasons. You already said "they only added Terry". Now you're saying it was only Stackhouse and Walker. Yes, when you take an MVP (which Nash had not become yet) and put them on a much worse team that team does not do as well. Even though Nash had not peaked yet in his career. And you're ignoring a much more involved coach, Dirk elevating his own game, Josh Howard going to the next level, Jerry Stackhouse joining, Devin Harris being able to contribute right away, offensive chucker Walker going away and most of all a change in style of play that more suited Dirk's skills with those specific players around him. Its not a knock on Nash that everyone ended up in better situations. The way you're talking you seem to think that if they had kept Nash yet made all those improvements the team would not have improved or improved less which is just kind of, well, dumb.



Uh, thats silly. Are you comparing the Celtics quality in that era to the Mavs? Okay, how about this... when Jordan retired they replaced him with a CBA scrub, rebuilt the team around Pippen and only lost 2 more games. Jordan must have sucked huh! Not much better then a CBA scrub. Or no, and you're wrong.

That's beyond the fact that Nash wasn't an MVP when he left Dallas. He was an MVP when he got to PHX. Its pretty obvious he was insulted by Cuban (who was responsible for screwing up the team) and rededicated himself to bring his game to another level.

You're argument that

???

They didn't have Butler, they traded him for Kwame Brown ...[/QUOTE]

:applause: Just checking in. Nice to see Mikali is still getting pawned on his Steve Nash hating mission.

:cheers: indiefan

[Mikaiel]

So let me get this right : You can evaluate his impact by looking at how his new team performed without him the previous year but it's not ok to look at how his old team did without him after he left ?

You said "Dirk improved, they got a new coach, bla bla bla", but you can do the exact same thing for Phoenix. Amare improved. Joe Johnson too. They got more comfortable with D'Antoni's "coaching", they had a full training camp to get used to his philosophies, bla bla bla.

BTW, your MJ argument is stupid. The Bulls only lost 2 more games but they didn't even get to the Finals. But the Mavs without Nash actually got better both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

And I'm sure they wouldn't have so successful if they had kept Nash. Nash can't play basketball the right way. He would not have worked in Avery Johnson's system. He's only good when his team can play garbage basketball, the kind that gets you attention and exposure on Sportscenter, but that doesn't win sh!t.

[indiefan23]

I've never said he didn't deserve his MVP because of what his team did in the playoffs. It's a regular season award. I just corrected him because he said the Suns killed Kobe in the playoffs, that's just not true.

It would have been a sweep or a 4-1 and done if the refs didn't extend the series multiple times. Maybe not killed but


Yeah, for some reason, teams tend to lose more frequently when their main playmaker doesn't play. It's one of the biggest mysteries out there. No one knows why, it just happens.

Yea, but the suns almost never won without Nash. And that includes with Marbury/Penny. The culture was a losing one driven by negative personalities. He's the MVP for changing the ocurse alone.

[tastystaci]

[QUOTE=Mikaiel]
You said "Dirk improved, they got a new coach, bla bla bla", but you can do the exact same thing for Phoenix. Amare improved. Joe Johnson too. They got more comfortable with D'Antoni's "coaching", they had a full training camp to get used to his philosophies, bla bla bla./QUOTE]

:roll: You just conveniently leave out the addition of perinial 6th man of the year, Jason Terry, the drafting of Devin Harris, who later be traded for J Kidd straight up in what some would say was lopsided in the Nets favor, addition of Stackhouse, Josh Howard into the starting line-up. The Suns added Nash and Q f*ckin-Rich. You are such a f*ckin joke. Your Nash-bash quest is an epic failure. Just STFU.

[Mikaiel]

It would have been a sweep or a 4-1 and done if the refs didn't extend the series multiple times. Maybe not killed but

Blaming the refs, how original :rolleyes:


Yea, but the suns almost never won without Nash. And that includes with Marbury/Penny. The culture was a losing one driven by negative personalities. He's the MVP for changing the ocurse alone.

So earlier your argument was "The Mavs got rid of Walker" and now you don't give the Suns props for getting rid of Marbury ? Or was that Steve Nash who traded him ?

And if your argument for his MVPs is "they didn't win without him", then how could Kobe or LeBron not get that award ? How horrible would the Lakers and Cavs have been without those guys ? Their teams were much more successful in the playoffs, relatively speaking. I don't remember Kobe or LeBron having multiple All-NBA players on their teams.

[bdreason]

Nash was the best player on his team and in the league.


There is no way that a PG who plays NO defense will ever be the best player in the NBA. I don't care if he averages 20 assists a game.


The MVP award rewards players for Offense + Team Success + Media Hype. Occasionally the MVP winner happens to also be the best player in the league, but that isn't always the case.

[tastystaci]

There is no way that a PG who plays NO defense will ever be the best player in the NBA. I don't care if he averages 20 assists a game.


The MVP award rewards players for Offense + Team Success + Media Hype. Occasionally the MVP winner happens to also be the best player in the league, but that isn't always the case.

So you agree that A.I. didn't deserve his MVP? He certainly was the worst defender on the court every game he played. Or does this just apply to Steve Nash?

[Shepseskaf]

So you agree that A.I. didn't deserve his MVP? He certainly was the worst defender on the court every game he played. Or does this just apply to Steve Nash?
Why are you posting on a basketball board "staci" if you're so obviously ignorant about the game?

For your information, Iverson LED THE LEAGUE in steals per game for the 2000-01 season. Not only that he was also number #1 for the next two seasons. Is that enough defense for you?

Not only that, comparing Iverson's stats in his MVP year to Nash's is nothing but a joke. Why don't you look them up? Then take a look at the teammates that Nash played with, and couldn't even make the conference finals, and Iverson's decidedly inferior team that he took to the Championship, and stole the first game in LA.

Learn about basketball before you post here, loser.

[Bush4Ever]

Why are you posting on a basketball board "staci" if you're so obviously ignorant about the game?

For your information, Iverson LED THE LEAGUE in steals per game for the 2000-01 season. Not only that he was also number #1 for the next two seasons. Is that enough defense for you?

Steals are not perfectly correlated with defensive prowess, particularly when a good chunk of those steals come from running the passing lanes for steals.

The volume of steals become less valuable the more and more times you gamble for steals and get burnt, or put your team at a defensive disadvantage.

Someone like Bruce Bowen, who rarely gambles or obtains steals, but still locks his man up is more valuable than a player who gets 3 steals a game while gambling and letting their man go off.

I'm not applying this to the Iverson/Nash thing here, but there are better defensive arguments to make than steal numbers.

[indiefan23]

So let me get this right : You can evaluate his impact by looking at how his new team performed without him the previous year but it's not ok to look at how his old team did without him after he left ?

You're getting closer. Except I'm looking at his new team before he left and after they lost their best scorer and defender. But lets play by your rules and use pre-mvp Nash... lets do it.

You say Nash made them do worse. Except what happened was Cuban destroyed the team's chemistry by forcing stupid moves. Two years before Nash left the Mavs won 60 games and showed a real jump to the next level. They lost a tight west finals to the Spurs and Cuban got rid of Raja Bell, Abdul Wahad, Adrian Griffen, Lafrentz, and Nick Van Exel. Avery Johnson played that year too. Van Exel was a huge loss as was everyone else who were key contributors as well.

Cuban replaced them with career chucker Antoine Walker, and career chucker and reason Reggie Miller is not the only player to beat MJ in a prime series, ultra crap, fall in love with the contested pull up 3 Travis Best.

My hate list of players is as follows. Kobe Bryant. Karl Malone. Travis Best. Travis Best is why Reggie has no rings. I'll never be convinced otherwise.

Back on track. That core of solid players was replaced with three jackers 1 and 2, and the "I'm so bad I deserve a title in quotes between my first and last name" all stars. They would be:

Danny "I average 8.6 fouls per 36 mintues" Forston.
Shawn "I'm a walking corpse" Bradley.
35 year old Scott "yes, I'm that guy who backed up MJ on the first bulls championships and played no minutes" Williams
Tony "I've played for 9 teams" Delk
Antawn "I'm actually really good, but have no place on a team built like this" Jamison

Then there was Daniels and Howard who were raw rookies. Now that year the Mavs pushed the eventual champion Spurs harder then any team in the playoffs. The mavs turned a corner, it was obvious, but Cuban was patient. He blew up the team and put in crappy players. The mavs were tied for the best record in the league, the number 1 offense and the number 9 defense. After Cuban's moves they went to 6'th best record in the league and the 26'th defense because Cuban has no idea how to build a team. But whats that? You took away good offensive players? Oh my, the Mavs still had the number one offense in the league.

Why is that? Its because Cuban's team was carried by an MVP point guard just as he was peaking and lost him because he didn't know how to say thanks for saving my ass, I effed up. Instead he insulted him and implied that it was Nash's fault for losing. I mean, you do know that Mavs did better in their 3 previous seasons the the one when Nash left, right? 60, 57 and 53 wins.


You said "Dirk improved, they got a new coach, bla bla bla", but you can do the exact same thing for Phoenix. Amare improved. Joe Johnson too.

Yes, thats why Nash proved he was no fluke the next year when both Amare AND Johnson were not there and Nash produced the same results.


BTW, your MJ argument is stupid. The Bulls only lost 2 more games but they didn't even get to the Finals. But the Mavs without Nash actually got better both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

And I'm sure they wouldn't have so successful if they had kept Nash. Nash can't play basketball the right way. He would not have worked in Avery Johnson's system. He's only good when his team can play garbage basketball, the kind that gets you attention and exposure on Sportscenter, but that doesn't win sh!t.
[/quote]

Its not stupid. We are discussing a regular season award. Dallas was better in the playoffs?

Okay, let me just advise you before I start, you brought up the playoffs, not me, but since you've brought it up I'm going there.

You've just soundly lost this argument. Observe.

Nash promptly destroyed Dallas the year he got to PHX in the playoffs. It went like this:

Nash makes it look easy
14 dimes, win by 25.

Dirk pretends he can hang
13 dimes. 23 points. Pride win by Dallas by 2.

Back to Dallas
17 dimes. 27 points. 57% shooting. Fu@k you Cuban, I was your best player. Win by 18.

Don't fould jump shooters!
everyone got into foul trouble so Nash carried them with 48 god damned points on 71%/66% from 3 holy crap my god he's the best player on the planet and its not even close shooting and we let him go for nothing. Lost by 10.

Return home tied. Nash responds to pressure with triple double despite being 6'1" and under 200 lbs he gets 34 points, 12 dimes, 13 boards. 50% shooting. Win by 6.

"Stick a fork in my old team, they're done and I'm finished ripping their hearts out, in fact, I'm going to go into my house, because I have two stadiums fully in my ownership now, and rip out the hearts of my old team on my old floor, which is still my floor, and hold it in front of Mark Cuban beating letting him know everything he lost, so every Mavs fan in the building knows the one person responsible for why I'm doing this to you instead of for you with my best friend... game."

One board shy of a triple double. 39 points. 12 assists. 9 rebounds. 58% shooting. 62.5% from 3. Win by 4.

Entire series. Missed one free throw.

That's called taking over a series with out of this world MVP play. One other player has played like that in the last 20 years. His first name starts with Michael. His last name ends with Jordan. Third? Its not even close. Steve Nash played the best series in the NBA since Michael Jordan yet for some reason he's at the very bottom of everyone's MVP list when only him and Duncan have two.

The thing is, I know you know I'm right. There's nothing to argue about. He scored 48 points on 71% shooting when his team could not put it together. He ended the series on two triple doubles scoring 39 and 34 points in the building that rejected him. People claimed it was other player's so he did the exact same thing the next year without those players. The year after he got robbed of a third straight MVP when he unquestionably had the best team in basketball built more around him. It took 3 games worth of league/ref gifts and blatant cheating for San Antonio to squeak by them in 7 games to become the least deservering NBA champions since the Lakers had a series fixed for them.

I'm not sure if you're going to find some little crack to wriggle out of or just admit that you're stuck... because you are. That was an all time performance ranking among the very best of every series any player in this league has ever had. There's no other way to look at it because Nash played perfect basketball. Its a fact that can't be changed without falsifying stats. The only people with a comparable series are GOAT candidates.

The truly ironic thing about the MVPs is how guys like yourself are actually responsible for them. Nash took a team of malcontents who's careers had been poisoned by the selfish play of Stephon Marbury and showed them in almost 0 time what it meant to be part of something bigger then yourself. In doing so he created the most cohesive young team in history that flew in the face of their youth. It was unique and special.

But that's not ironic. A legion of Kobe fans (and some others) spearheaded this massive campaign against that special thing. Sports media was saturated with reasons Nash's MVP was a joke. I'm sure you were probably on the front lines of that charge too. It made such noise the main thrust became accepted as a fact. How was Nash the MVP when he wasn't even the best player on his team? Nash won MVP because players like Joe Johnson and Amare improved. Nash was the most disrespected MVP in history and it became accepted that his selection was a huge mistake.

Then the next season came. Kobe was obviously intending this year to be the one he won MVP as he set out to score 35.5 PPG. He put himself before his team as his assists dropped significantly. The season started and the ironic thing happened.

The hype created to discredit Nash's MVP lowered expectations after Johnson was traded for scraps and Amare was hurt. Those same haters jeered and claimed the suns would not even make the playoffs in the stacked west now. With a revamped team Nash took those replacement scrubs did a repeat performance. Seven other players had career years on one team and without 2 of their top 3 players.

If the reason Nash was so undeserving was Amare/Johnson and those players were gone yet the same elite team was fielded it was obvious then who was behind it. People who know basketball knew all along but everyone who had been fooled by the ruse stood up and took notice of something truly all time and unique happening in sports. An ego less mild mannered athlete silenced all his doubters by unequivocally proving them more wrong every game of the season.

In story book fashion Nash beat Kobe for MVP by using team play to make those around him instead of himself better. The high scoring average and conceutive games scoring 50 points were seen as the agenda driven attempts they were and Nash got his name into legitimate all time conversations by becoming the shortest (by far) and only the second point to win back to back MVPs.

The suns beat the Lakers and their complaining fans that someone had won MVP with teamwork instead of volume shooting and Phoenix got closer to the finals then they (or Nash) ever had pushing San Antonio more then any other team that year.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you can possibly pull out of your hat now. I think its done. Nash quietly became one of the best offensive players ever and unleashed it on the league on a perfect team for him in Phoenix. You can call it garbage ball but you're wrong. It pushed the best teams of the current era and had Sarver not been so cheap and kept Joe Johnson, didn't sell Rajon Rondo, not traded for shaq or had traded Amare for KG Nash would be a champion now not that it would make much of a difference to you.

Its okay. Steve Nash layed down the biggest f@ck you series performance since Michael Jordan vs the Detroit Pistons or Lakers on a great team 100% built around him as the focal point. I know its all time and MVP caliber work. Anyone who's honest about the game knows it too.

[Shepseskaf]

Steals are not perfectly correlated with defensive prowess, particularly when a good chunk of those steals come from running the passing lanes for steals.
Yes, I'm aware of that. If you look back, I responding to someone who said that Iverson was "the worst defensive player" or something stupid like that. Steals aren't the definitive barometer of a player's defense, but it is certainly a big part of it.

[indiefan23]

Steals are not perfectly correlated with defensive prowess, particularly when a good chunk of those steals come from running the passing lanes for steals.

The volume of steals become less valuable the more and more times you gamble for steals and get burnt, or put your team at a defensive disadvantage.

Someone like Bruce Bowen, who rarely gambles or obtains steals, but still locks his man up is more valuable than a player who gets 3 steals a game while gambling and letting their man go off.

I'm not applying this to the Iverson/Nash thing here, but there are better defensive arguments to make than steal numbers.

Yea, except Iverson was so fast he could play passing lanes without giving much up on the guy he was guarding. The 76'ers had the 4'th best defense in the league that year. Steals are a limited stat but there are almost no defensive stats anyway. Iverson drove people insane on those Larry Brown teams. He wasn't Gary Payton, no one was, but he was an elite defender and hands down the best offensive player in the game. I'm not sure what other offensive arguments you'd make without like, games and games on tape to review and compare. There are not decent defensive stats.

[indiefan23]

:roll: :roll:

Seriously, just shut up and don't post again. Your account should be revoked for that gem alone.

I absolutely stand by it. Who was better?

[Bush4Ever]

Yea, except Iverson was so fast he could play passing lanes without giving much up on the guy he was guarding. The 76'ers had the 4'th best defense in the league that year. Steals are a limited stat but there are almost no defensive stats anyway. Iverson drove people insane on those Larry Brown teams. He wasn't Gary Payton, no one was, but he was an elite defender and hands down the best offensive player in the game. I'm not sure what other offensive arguments you'd make without like, games and games on tape to review and compare. There are not decent defensive stats.

I agree that there aren't really any good defensive statistics. Evaluating defense is more of a role for personal observation. I would flat out deny that Iverson was an elite defender during that time, however. Yes, he was better defensively than Nash.

I'm also not sold on Iverson being the best offensive player in the game during that time period. I'm not going to regurgitate the same old "poor FG percentage, too many turnovers" argument, but it does have some validity.

Additionally, Iverson had a TON of absolutely horrendous shooting games in the 2001 playoffs, which while it has nothing to do with the MVP award per se, it certainly is a mark against him.

[Bush4Ever]

Steals aren't the definitive barometer of a player's defense, but it is certainly a big part of it.

I would argue that even this statement is an overstatement. Defense ultimately reduces to two things:

1. Stopping your man from putting the ball in the hole.
2. Stopping the other team (apart from your man) from putting the ball in the hole.

You can accomplish those two objectives with minimal steals or blocks, or attempts at stealing/blocking the ball.

[Shepseskaf]

I absolutely stand by it. Who was better?
I don't have the time or the inclination to get into a long debate (or any debate at all) with you on this, but any assertion that Steve Nash was 2005's best player should be laughed out of any conversation by knowledgeable bb fans.

[indiefan23]

Blaming the refs, how original :rolleyes:


Heh, LA winning anything without them or Magic Johnson. How unoriginal.


So earlier your argument was "The Mavs got rid of Walker" and now you don't give the Suns props for getting rid of Marbury ? Or was that Steve Nash who traded him ?

Uh, Walker was totally useless in Dallas and never played real mintues for a serious team again. Marbury put up 23 and 8 and was in his prime. There's a difference.


And if your argument for his MVPs is "they didn't win without him", then how could Kobe or LeBron not get that award ? How horrible would the Lakers and Cavs have been without those guys ? Their teams were much more successful in the playoffs, relatively speaking. I don't remember Kobe or LeBron having multiple All-NBA players on their teams.

Funny 1, if your argument is won because of Amare not Nash, why did they come within a few baskets of making the finals without Amare?

Funny 2, I remember Kobe with multiple hall of fame players on Kobe's team and he couldn't win then either.

Funny 3, I don't remember any all NBA players in PHX till Nash got there or multiple ones hen he did.

Funny 4, why do you wish to reward Kobe's inability to make his teammates better? Surely, he could get Pau up to all nba status no?

Funny 5, Kobe doens't have all NBA players on his team because he told his team to send them away.

The Lakers? With Pau Gasol/Odom switching up point forward duties in the triangle, Vuyacik(sp), Radmonovic, cook, Ariza bombing thee's off all the Pau double teams, he's really the 'perfect' center for that offense, and Ariza playing as well as he's always been capable of, yea, I see that team winning 50 games in a weakening west.

Lebron's team? I don't see them making it in. However Lebron is better then Kobe and does not need other stars to play off so it makes sense.

[indiefan23]

I don't have the time or the inclination to get into a long debate (or any debate at all) with you on this, but any assertion that Steve Nash was 2005's best player should be laughed out of any conversation by knowledgeable bb fans.

Well, I'm for certain a knowledgeable basketball fan. If its as obvious as you say you should be able to quickly drop names, no?

[tastystaci]

Why are you posting on a basketball board "staci" if you're so obviously ignorant about the game?

For your information, Iverson LED THE LEAGUE in steals per game for the 2000-01 season. Not only that he was also number #1 for the next two seasons. Is that enough defense for you?

Not only that, comparing Iverson's stats in his MVP year to Nash's is nothing but a joke. Why don't you look them up? Then take a look at the teammates that Nash played with, and couldn't even make the conference finals, and Iverson's decidedly inferior team that he took to the Championship, and stole the first game in LA.

Learn about basketball before you post here, loser.

Me, learn about the game:roll: If you think Iverson was a good defender because he put up steals numbers, then you need to get your ass off the short bus and come to the big boy table if your gonna post with the big boys. This is the line-up Ivo had behind him: Dikembe Mutumbo, Aaron Mckie, Erik Snow, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Matt Geiger, Raja Bell :roll:

That's like a first and second all defensive team behind him, so yeah, he was able to gamble and put up some steals numbers. :lol I would argue that Nash is probably as good of a defender, if not better than Ivo. Nash is willing to mix it up, takes charges, etc...The problem is behind him, Nash has never had anybody to protect the rim. Ivo is a defensive liablility, anybody who actually watches basketball understands this. So you need to STFU.

[GOBB]

lol steve nash D being better than iverson. Comedy.

[indiefan23]

I would argue that even this statement is an overstatement. Defense ultimately reduces to two things:

1. Stopping your man from putting the ball in the hole.
2. Stopping the other team (apart from your man) from putting the ball in the hole.

You can accomplish those two objectives with minimal steals or blocks, or attempts at stealing/blocking the ball.

Steals you have a point. Blocks you do not. While you will rarely alter passes (people will just wait instead of pass, although with a few steals you can get into someone's head) a good shot blocker will often alter shots. What one block on a stat sheet indicates is something closer to 5-10 altered shots. (I just picked a number, but you get the point). Altered shots are huge on defense and a great shot blocker knows his presence can shut down the paint. Watch Dwight shut it down in Orlando. Players fall in love with their jumpers because they come to belive its higher percentage.

[Bush4Ever]

Well, I'm for certain a knowledgeable basketball fan. If its as obvious as you say you should be able to quickly drop names, no?

Virtually any high-level offensive player who also played good defense should do the trick.

[spree43]

Just some general comments on the thread, sorr don't know how to use the multiple quote thing yet

Whoever tried to downplay Nashs MVPs by using the improvement of Dallas needs to understand this ... The most valuable player award doesn't go to the player who is the most valuable to any team int he league, it goes to the player who's is most valuable to his teams success
Therefore it doesn't matter if Dallas had of won 2 games the year before he left, maybe he didn't suit they're style of play.

In terms of who had the most deserving season I'd like to see how the votes went in each season, then you'd see who the most clear cut winners were, with no prejudice or looking at the following playoff performances

The talk about AI and Vince just reminded me of one of the single greatest (and most underated) duals in playoff history, in AIs MVP year,

Game 1 (pts, rebs, asts, blks, stls)
TOR 96 - 93
VC - 35, 2, 7, 2, 0
AI - 36, 8, 4, 0, 7

Game 2
PHI 97 - 92
VC - 28, 7, 4, 2, 2
AI - 54, 5, 4, 0, 1

Game 3
TOR 102 - 78
VC - 50, 6, 7, 4, 1
AI - 23, 4, 8, 1, 4

Game 4
PHI 84 - 79
VC - 25, 10, 5, 3, 1
AI - 30, 4, 5, 0, 4

Game 5
PHI 121 - 88
VC - 16, 5, 2, 0, 2
AI - 52, 2, 7, 0, 4

Game 6
TOR 101 - 89
VC - 39, 5, 5, 1, 4
AI - 20, 4, 4, 0, 0

Game 7
PHI 88 - 87 (Carter shot for win missed)
VC - 20, 7, 9, 2, 3
AI - 21, 4, 16, 1, 2

Two teams basicly riding one player each and in general who ever had a clearly better game out of the two players won the game, and with similar production it was close
And two of the best players to watch in their prime in NBA history

[indiefan23]

lol steve nash D being better than iverson. Comedy.

I don't think anyone made that claim. But Iverson's inability to mesh with Igudola and Webber (AI's tragic flaw) is a big part of the reason they were only 2 games over .500. Nash was much better in 05.

Next.

[Bush4Ever]

Steals you have a point. Blocks you do not. While you will rarely alter passes (people will just wait instead of pass, although with a few steals you can get into someone's head) a good shot blocker will often alter shots. What one block on a stat sheet indicates is something closer to 5-10 altered shots. (I just picked a number, but you get the point). Altered shots are huge on defense and a great shot blocker knows his presence can shut down the paint. Watch Dwight shut it down in Orlando. Players fall in love with their jumpers because they come to belive its higher percentage.

So what happens to the Marcus Cambys of the league who harm their team defense by pointlessly roaming for blocked shots, getting pumped faked to death, leave their man for blocks too soon, etc...?

Of course it is always a good thing to block a shot, or alter a shot, but if the consequences of attempting to blocking shots/altering shots are severe, then the block shot statistic becomes misleading.

To give an extreme example, I'd much prefer 15 altered shots, 0 blocks, and 10 points needlessly given up over block attempts to 15 altered shots, 3 blocks, and 30 points needlessly given up over block attempts.

[Mikaiel]

Hmm, how original, the "Nash makes his teammates better" argument. Tell me, how much better did he make those teammates on the defensive end when his man blew by him at will ? How good of a leader is he if you can't even count on him on critical situations ? What kind of MVP can get abused by scrub PGs every single night ? He and Magic are the only back-to-back MVPs who have never been on an All-NBA Defensive team, and Magic was never the liability Nash was/is. Nash is just horrible on the defensive end, just horrible. And for an MVP ? He's probably the worst defender to ever win an MVP, even worse than Dirk. If he had won the MVOP, Most Valuable Offensive Player, I'd have nothing to say about it, but defense is half the game, even more, so sorry, Nash didn't deserve his MVPs.

And FYI, when Nash won his 1st MVP, I didn't think it was primarly because of Amare or JJ. It was because of D'Antoni. I hate his style of coaching, and when I say hate, I really f*cking hate it. I can't watch one of his team play without throwing up. He's almost as bad as Don Nelson, maybe even worse. But you can't argue that the Suns had the best offense in the league. All right Nash had a lot to do with that, but it wasn't Nash who decided they should push the ball at every opportunity. It wasn't Nash who decided they would play small ball. It wasn't Nash who came up with the 7 seconds or less offense (God I just threw up :ohwell:). Just look what he's done in New York. He makes Chris f*cking Duhon look like an All-Star on some nights. Some people even think David Lee should have gone to the All-Star Game this year (I just threw up again ...).

Sports media was saturated with reasons Nash's MVP was a joke ? Really ? Everyone was sucking his dick when he won. All you heard back then "What an unselfish player, he's incredible, look what he's done with that team bla bla bla".

And I've never said Nash was a bad player, obviously he was the best offensive PG in the league. So I'm not surprised he had an awesome series against Dallas. That's what great offensive players do. Sometimes, they just explode. But can they win ? That's another question. I really believe you can't win anything if your star only plays one half of the game, no matter how awesome he is at what he does. And one playoff series doesn't mean anything. Amare averaged something like 38 points against the Spurs in the playoffs one year, I guess he was the MVP then ? BTW, how many MVPs lost a series when one of their teammates averaged more than 35 points ? Hmm ...

And I don't care his owner is cheap, the guy played with a disguting amount of talent on his team. He played with Amare, Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, Shaq, Eddie House, Tim Thomas, Leandro Barbosa, Boris Diaw, Grant Hill, Quentin Richardson, maybe a few others, and he still couldn't win. You mean he needed a few more guys to win ? Wasn't it enough ? Give LeBron, Kobe, Jason Kidd or AI the same talent and they'll get you a title, without any doubt. There's a 90% chance either Kobe or LeBron wins a title this year, and they don't have as much talent on their teams right now. Jason Kidd went twice to the Finals, took the Spurs to 6 games with who ? Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, Kerry Kittles, Jason Collins, Mutombo, Lucious Harris ? AI went to the Finals and won a game against the mighty Lakers when his second leading scorer in the playoffs was Aaron McKie. Aaron McKie ... You really think he couldn't get a title with Amare, Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson ? Or Amare, Shawn Marion and Barbosa ?

[indiefan23]

Just some general comments on the thread, sorr don't know how to use the multiple quote thing yet

Whoever tried to downplay Nashs MVPs by using the improvement of Dallas needs to understand this ... The most valuable player award doesn't go to the player who is the most valuable to any team int he league, it goes to the player who's is most valuable to his teams success
Therefore it doesn't matter if Dallas had of won 2 games the year before he left, maybe he didn't suit they're style of play.

In terms of who had the most deserving season I'd like to see how the votes went in each season, then you'd see who the most clear cut winners were, with no prejudice or looking at the following playoff performances

I've always felt the votes are BS. Media is so bias its not even funny.


The talk about AI and Vince just reminded me of one of the single greatest (and most underated) duals in playoff history, in AIs MVP year,

Two teams basicly riding one player each and in general who ever had a clearly better game out of the two players won the game, and with similar production it was close
And two of the best players to watch in their prime in NBA history

Agreed there. Monster series.

[indiefan23]

Hmm, how original, the "Nash makes his teammates better" argument. Tell me, how much better did he make those teammates on the defensive end when his man blew by him at will ? How good of a leader is he if you can't even count on him on critical situations ? What kind of MVP can get abused by scrub PGs every single night ? He and Magic are the only back-to-back MVPs who have never been on an All-NBA Defensive team, and Magic was never the liability Nash was/is. Nash is just horrible on the defensive end, just horrible. And for an MVP ? He's probably the worst defender to ever win an MVP, even worse than Dirk. If he had won the MVOP, Most Valuable Offensive Player, I'd have nothing to say about it, but defense is half the game, even more, so sorry, Nash didn't deserve his MVPs.

And FYI, when Nash won his 1st MVP, I didn't think it was primarly because of Amare or JJ. It was because of D'Antoni. I hate his style of coaching, and when I say hate, I really f*cking hate it. I can't watch one of his team play without throwing up. He's almost as bad as Don Nelson, maybe even worse. But you can't argue that the Suns had the best offense in the league. All right Nash had a lot to do with that, but it wasn't Nash who decided they should push the ball at every opportunity. It wasn't Nash who decided they would play small ball. It wasn't Nash who came up with the 7 seconds or less offense (God I just threw up :ohwell:). Just look what he's done in New York. He makes Chris f*cking Duhon look like an All-Star on some nights. Some people even think David Lee should have gone to the All-Star Game this year (I just threw up again ...).

Sports media was saturated with reasons Nash's MVP was a joke ? Really ? Everyone was s*cking his dick when he won. All you heard back then "What an unselfish player, he's incredible, look what he's done with that team bla bla bla".

And I've never said Nash was a bad player, obviously he was the best offensive PG in the league. So I'm not surprised he had an awesome series against Dallas. That's what great offensive players do. Sometimes, they just explode. But can they win ? That's another question. I really believe you can't win anything if your star only plays one half of the game, no matter how awesome he is at what he does. And one playoff series doesn't mean anything. Amare averaged something like 38 points against the Spurs in the playoffs one year, I guess he was the MVP then ? BTW, how many MVPs lost a series when one of their teammates averaged more than 35 points ? Hmm ...

And I don't care his owner is cheap, the guy played with a disguting amount of talent on his team. He played with Amare, Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, Shaq, Eddie House, Tim Thomas, Leandro Barbosa, Boris Diaw, Grant Hill, Quentin Richardson, maybe a few others, and he still couldn't win. You mean he needed a few more guys to win ? Wasn't it enough ? Give LeBron, Kobe, Jason Kidd or AI the same talent and they'll get you a title, without any doubt. There's a 90% chance either Kobe or LeBron wins a title this year, and they don't have as much talent on their teams right now. Jason Kidd went twice to the Finals, took the Spurs to 6 games with who ? Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, Kerry Kittles, Jason Collins, Mutombo, Lucious Harris ? AI went to the Finals and won a game against the mighty Lakers when his second leading scorer in the playoffs was Aaron McKie. Aaron McKie ... You really he couldn't get a title with Amare, Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson ? Or Amare, Shawn Marion and Barbosa ?

Ah, pwned and don't want to address the pwnage or admit it. I'm tired now so I'm going to sleep. Thats okay, I'll come back and pwn you again tomorrow.

[Mikaiel]

pwnage

It's nice to know I'm debating with someone who's really mature :rolleyes:

[indiefan23]

So what happens to the Marcus Cambys of the league who harm their team defense by pointlessly roaming for blocked shots, getting pumped faked to death, leave their man for blocks too soon, etc...?

Of course it is always a good thing to block a shot, or alter a shot, but if the consequences of attempting to blocking shots/altering shots are severe, then the block shot statistic becomes misleading.

To give an extreme example, I'd much prefer 15 altered shots, 0 blocks, and 10 points needlessly given up over block attempts to 15 altered shots, 3 blocks, and 30 points needlessly given up over block attempts.

A bit of an overstatement but its a decent point. I don't think its as intense as you think though. There's the mental aspect too. When a shot blocker is in your head you're always thinking about that guy throws you off. Back in my horribly not awesome playing days blocking shots was one of the things I did best. A few might get swatted away but no one likes to get blocked. It takes toughness most players don't have to keep going at a big whos beating your shots back. After a while most guards will be less aggressive with their penetration and start trying to lower percentage jumpers or floaters. At that point you just D up and to to be as big and continuous a presence as possible. A lot of defense is purely mental. If he's thinking about you you're winning the battle is what my coach always told me.

[indiefan23]

It's nice to know I'm debating with someone who's really mature :rolleyes:

Not only am I mature I'm also winning. Feel free to give in at any time... I'll accept! ;0

[spree43]

in 06 the suns won 54 games this was there roster only including players that played 30 + games

Nash
Marion - Only ever good when playing with Nash
Bell - Role Player
Diaw - 6'8 starting centre
Barbosa - 13 ppg, still young and undeveloped
House - do i need to say anything
James Jones - can barely make the court on the heat!
Kurt Thomas - 8 and 8, what a star
EDIT: I missed Pat Burke (42 games, 8 minutes a game, what a star)

Thats all of them
Amare played 3 games, Tim Thomas play 26

Is that better than this years heat team? If you take out Nash and wade, I don't see a beasely quality player there, and this years heat traded away marion


IN THE STACKED WESTERN CONFERENCE

[GOBB]

I don't think anyone made that claim


Riiiight...


I would argue that Nash is probably as good of a defender, if not better than Ivo

Taking a page from your book?

Next. Only I'll show some courtesy & point to where the door is http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/icons/icon2.gif

[Mikaiel]

Not only am I mature I'm also winning. Feel free to give in at any time... I'll accept! ;0

I've already wasted enough time. There's no need to debate with someone who thinks there's only one side of the ball.

[tastystaci]

in 06 the suns won 54 games this was there roster only including players that played 30 + games

Nash
Marion - Only ever good when playing with Nash
Bell - Role Player
Diaw - 6'8 starting centre
Barbosa - 13 ppg, still young and undeveloped
House - do i need to say anything
James Jones - can barely make the court on the heat!
Kurt Thomas - 8 and 8, what a star

Thats all of them
Amare played 3 games, Tim Thomas play 26

Is that better than this years heat team? If you take out Nash and wade, I don't see a beasely quality player there, and this years heat traded away marion

They don't care. To Nash-haters this is a f*ckin' all-star team. They still had an all-star in Shaun Marion, and we all know how valuable he is to a winning squad :ohwell: And Tim Thomas was sitting on his couch, jobless when he signed with the Suns, and Nash managed to make him look like a f*ckin all-star during their playoff run, but Nash is overrated.:wtf:

[tastystaci]

lol steve nash D being better than iverson. Comedy.

You guys are such f*ckin' dopes. You put Ivo in Nash's place and he gets f*ckin' abused. Anyone who know basketball knows that Ivo is a horrible defender, I don't know how you even defend that. Because he put up steals numbers with Mutumbo, Tyrone Hill, Aaron Mckie, and Eric Snow behind him? This is such a mentally challenged argument.

[GOBB]

Me, learn about the game If you think Iverson was a good defender because he put up steals numbers, then you need to get your ass off the short bus and come to the big boy table if your gonna post with the big boys. This is the line-up Ivo had behind him: Dikembe Mutumbo, Aaron Mckie, Erik Snow, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Matt Geiger, Raja Bell

The thing about it is you dont know the game. You're just good with lookin at rosters and forming your conclusion. The fact you listed Mutombo when Theo Ratliff played with AI in more games says alot. The fact AI missed gms when Mutombo was aquired again says alot. The fact you dont even realize Raja Bell hardly parted his rear end from the bench says alot. The fact Matt Geiger (r u serious?) wasnt a shot blocker, wasnt a shot alterer just an intimidator/protector of AI BUT hardly was healthy that season again SAYS ALOT.

I can go on and on. The only reference about the game of basketball you TOUCHED on briefly was the fact that if you have a defensive prescence behind you? It allows you to play agressive on the perimeter. But the rest of your post was utter nonsense that you cant support. The fact you typed that he had all defense first and second team means you NEED to exagerrate to make your point seem valid. WEll I'm here to bytchslap you back into reality.

I just want to know did you experience that season at all?
I just want to know did you experience much of the Sixers at all?

It just seems you flipped yourself up and allowed your ass to speak for you. I think I pretty much showed that here. Just answer my 2 questions in bold (because you cant refute a nothing else) with "No" and I'll move on. Even let you believe the crap you do. But the minute you type "Yes" then well you are lying to the posters and lying to me. And homie dont play that girl. So you wanna play Rihanna I'll play Chris Brown.

*cracks knuckles*

[GOBB]

Eric Snow was behind AI? News to me. Just another silly remark by you.

But I'm putting up mentally challenged arguments? Comedy.

[spree43]

The fact of the matter is that if you swap any player in the NBA since the year 2000 with 2006 Nash, they dont make the playoffs

MAYBE with the exception of Shaq, thats how well Nash suited that team

Barbosa, Bell, Marion, Diaw, Shaq,
K. Thomas, House, James Jones

Would Make it in, but he's the only one

Therefore
1. Shaq
2. 06 Nash
3. 05 Nash for the same reason

Rest can fight for the scraps

[Bush4Ever]

The fact of the matter is that if you swap any player in the NBA since the year 2000 with 2006 Nash, they dont make the playoffs

MAYBE with the exception of Shaq, thats how well Nash suited that team

Barbosa, Bell, Marion, Diaw, Shaq,
K. Thomas, House, James Jones

Would Make it in, but he's the only one

Therefore
1. Shaq
2. 06 Nash
3. 05 Nash for the same reason

Rest can fight for the scraps

That is an opinion and any team in NBA History would automatically get better with a prime Shaq or prime Duncan. Literally, 100 percent of teams (yes, this is my opinion).

[tastystaci]

The fact you listed Mutombo when Theo Ratliff played with AI in more games says alot.

We're talking MVP seasons noobtron :wtf: And yes, 4 time defensive player of the year and 6 time all defensive team player Dikembe Mutumbo played Center for the Sixers that year. STFU


The fact you dont even realize Raja Bell hardly parted his rear end from the bench says alot.

I named like 10 guys on their roster, all defensive players. I didn't say they all played 30+ minutes per game, that would be impossible f*ckstick. Raja was a defensive stopper off the bench. Played 15 playoff games, 9 mins per. There starting lineup had Mutumbo, Tyrone Hill, Aaron Mckie, and Eric Snow. What else needs to be said. Those other defensive players I named were just gravy on the potatoes, so again...STFU


The only reference about the game of basketball you TOUCHED on briefly was the fact that if you have a defensive prescence behind you? It allows you to play agressive on the perimeter.

At least you acknowledge greatness when it sh*ts all over your face. :lol


I just want to know did you experience that season at all?
I just want to know did you experience much of the Sixers at all?

Yes and Yes. I was rooting for sixers that year, respected what Ivo was doing with a lack of offensive help. In hindsight, it wasn't him making them better, it was them making him better by hiding his defensive ineptness and allowing him to shoot as much as he wants, which is probably why he played with a continuous boner throughout that entire season. :lol

[spree43]

That is an opinion and any team in NBA History would automatically get better with a prime Shaq or prime Duncan. Literally, 100 percent of teams (yes, this is my opinion).

No need to get b****y with me, its a turn of phrase

Here is my full list

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Nash (05)
#3. Nash (06)
#4. Lebron (09)
#5. Iverson (01)
#6. Duncan (02)
#7. Dirk (07)
#8. Kobe (08)
#9. Duncan (03)
#10. Garnett (04)

Don't know if this helps the arguement, but Mutumbo was all NBA second team, Larry Brown was coach of the year, and Aaron McKie Sixth Man

[GOBB]

We're talking MVP seasons noobtron :wtf: And yes, 4 time defensive player of the year and 6 time all defensive team player Dikembe Mutumbo played Center for the Sixers that year. STFU

Mutombo only played in 26gms for the Sixers that season.
Mutombo only played in 18gms with Allen Iverson that season.

AI played 71gms that season. Somehow those 18 were monumental. :rolleyes:



I named like 10 guys on their roster, all defensive players. I didn't say they all played 30+ minutes per game, that would be impossible f*ckstick. Raja was a defensive stopper off the bench. Played 15 playoff games, 9 mins per.

AI won the MVP based on reg season not playoffs. So you telling me Raja's stats = meaningless given the FACT (something you havent been posting) Raja Bell only played in 5gms a combined 30mins for the regular season. 3 of the 5gms he didnt play with Iverson. They signed him late April just before the playoff run (now you can use your irrelevant stats. place them here ___________). You know the season AI won MVP where somehow Raja Bell had an impact on AI? :oldlol:

Should I embarrass you further? Ok

Eric Snow only played 50gms that season. He too like Mutombo played in games that AI didnt play in (again he only played 71gms that season). Eric Snow somehow played behind AI when in reality he guarded the opposing teams best perimeter scorer. Keyword perimeter.

Matt Geiger? Like i said before in my recent post. Are you serious? Matt was instrumental in waiving his trade kicker so AI wouldnt end up an ex Sixer. That was the best play he did that season. Matt only played in 35gms. 15mpg is what he tried to give the Sixers. He was injured most of the year. He was not any kind of defensive prescence. He was an intimadator and protector. He was the guy who fouled an opposing player who was hot hard. Stirred things up. He was the guy who returned the favor since AI was getting knocked down constantly. He was nothing more than 6 fouls to give. You want to know what Matt MR ALL DEFENSE (as you highlight) did after AI MVP season? He fizzled. 4gms next season and poof he was gone. But somehow he was a defensive prescence for AI. Gotcha.

Ty Hill and G.Lynch were very good help defenders and defenders in general.

But you never once mentioned a huge part of the Sixers defense which was the guy who swatted and altered shots. Who controlled the paint. Who was the reason the Sixers defenders could play agressively on the perimeter, or agressive period because they knew one thing. They had protection in case thier man blew by them. Why you didnt speak on Theo who played 50gms? Who avg 3.7bpg? Beats me. You listed Mutombo because to a CASUAL FAN he is a popular player, a popular choice.

Like i said you cant back up NOTHING you typed.


There starting lineup had Mutumbo, Tyrone Hill, Aaron Mckie, and Eric Snow. What else needs to be said. Those other defensive players I named were just gravy on the potatoes, so again...STFU

Yeah that was the starting lineup for 71gms where AI had his MVP season. :no:

Silly girl.


At least you acknowledge greatness when it sh*ts all over your face. :lol

You said Eric Snow played behind AI. Yes I acknowledge greatness. :rolleyes:



Yes and Yes. I was rooting for sixers that year, respected what Ivo was doing with a lack of offensive help. In hindsight, it wasn't him making them better, it them making him better by hiding his defensive ineptness and allowing him to shoot as much he wants, which is probably why he played with a continuous boner throughout that entire season.

I exposed you didnt. AI was a good defensive player the year he won MVP. You're just misinformed. Overall as a career? Defensively AI isnt anything to write home too. That year he played some of his best defense. Only Mutombo made an All defense team. Theo would have if not due to his injury which ended his season. No other Sixers (Lynch, Snow, Mckie, Ty Hill, Raja Bell, Geiger) made it.

[tastystaci]

I was bringing up their playoff run because that's what people use to justify A.I's greatness and his MVP(which I know is a regular season award). Yes, Theo played the bulk of the regular season, who himself was a great shot blocker and overall inside intimidator who they replaced with Mutumbo later in the year and into the playoffs. You yourself admit A.I. was a subpar defender, but then you say he was a great defender his MVP season? That's not something you just suddenly turn on. His teammates around him hid his defensive ineptness, a luxury Nash has never had. He put up steals numbers because he had a great defensive team behind him. That's all there is to say about the subject.

[GOBB]

hahahaa usin his playoff run when your argument gets smacked for a home run.

Excuse me while i take my bases. Give me a second.





















You yourself admit A.I. was a subpar defender, but then you say he was a great defender his MVP season?

You have trouble reading. I said AI played some of his best defense that year. I then went on to say if you had to judge his defense career wise from rookie year until present? Overall he isnt a great defender. I'm not sure why you have trouble taking this in. Never used the word great. You did. You like making up things to support your weak position.




Still waiting to see how Nash was as good as, if not better than AI defensively. There is absolutely zero argument. He never disrupted defenses, he never made players think twice before passing a ball in his vincinity, he never played the passing lanes like Deion Sanders in his prime + getting you EASY offense in transition.

I mean i dont even toy with the whole stat thing all too much. Nash has never had a season steals wise as good as AI did this past season. And AI was a defensive liability this season. You chew on that. But I'm sure it was the people BEHIND AI that made this possible. Of course.

[tastystaci]

AI was a good defensive player the year he won MVP.Overall as a career? Defensively AI isnt anything to write home too.

He was good
according to you his MVP season, but nothing to write home about the rest of his career. :wtf: And that has nothing to do with who he had behind him? :wtf: Please, I don't see what your argument is at this point. Both are defensive liabilities, Nash gets raped by everyone for it while people overlook it in A.I's case because he puts up steals numbers. No logic.

[Shepseskaf]

He was good
according to you his MVP season, but nothing to write home about the rest of his career. :wtf: And that has nothing to do with who he had behind him? :wtf: Please, I don't see what your argument is at this point. Both are defensive liabilities, Nash gets raped by everyone for it while people overlook it in A.I's case because he puts up steals numbers. No logic.
:oldlol:

Give it up. You lost.

[GOBB]

:oldlol:

Give it up. You lost.

:oldlol:


I would argue that Nash is probably as good of a defender, if not better than Ivo.

How long do I have to wait to see this argument? I mean surely this isnt your argument...



Nash is willing to mix it up, takes charges, etc

:roll:

So where is the got damn argument? Maybe I need to grab a snickers huh?

[raptorfan_dr07]

IMO, Shaq was robbed in 01 and 05. Anyways, here's my list:

1) Shaq 00
2) Duncan 03
3) Duncan 02
4) Iverson 01
5) Garnett 04
6) Lebron 09
7) Nash 06
8) Kobe 08
9) Dirk 07
10) Nash 05

[Godfather]

Now that we know who won it this year I thought I would see how people rank it compared to some other MVP seasons, so the topic is simple: Rank the past 10 MVP seasons. You can take into account individual dominance, team success, team strength etc, all the usual stuff.

00: Shaquille O'Neal, 30/14/4/1/3 on 57%FG, 67 wins
01: Allen Iverson, 31/4/5/3/0 on 42%FG, 56 wins
02: Tim Duncan, 26/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 58 wins
03: Tim Duncan, 23/13/4/1/3 on 51%FG, 60 wins
04: Kevin Garnett, 24/14/5/2/2 on 50%FG, 58 wins
05: Steve Nash, 16/3/12/1/0 on 50%FG, 62 wins
06: Steve Nash, 19/4/11/1/0 on 51%FG, 54 wins
07: Dirk Nowitzki, 25/9/3/1/1 on 50%FG, 67 wins
08: Kobe Bryant, 28/6/5/2/1 on 46%FG, 57 wins
09: Lebron James, 28/8/7/2/1 on 49%FG, 66 wins

Some impressive years in there, especially in the first half.

My own ranking:

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Duncan (02)
#3. Lebron (09)
#4. Garnett (04)
#5. Duncan (03)
#6. Iverson (01)
#7. Dirk (07)
#8. Kobe (08)
#9. Nash (05)
#10. Nash (06)

I thought Kobe in 05 was more impressive then last years version and better than Dirk and Iverson in their respective MVP seasons.

Nash robbed him though. No doubt about that.

[Godfather]

Steve Nash is the single worst defender of all the MVP's and it isn't even close.

Put every single perimeter MVP of the last 10 on the Suns of 05 and 06 they would be a better team.

To put Nash's MVP seasons over anyone elses at this point would be pure idiocy.

[spree43]

Nash
Marion
Bell
Diaw
Barbosa
House
James Jones
Kurt Thomas
Pat Burke

I'm waiting for someone to explain how this team is better than wades heat this year if you take out wade and nash

If you put any other swing man on that team and they don't make the playoffs, let alone win 54 games in the western conference (which was significantly better that year)

Barbosa
Kobe/Wade/Lebron/Iverson
Bell
Marion
Diaw

Doesn't make the playoffs, Lebron would be the tallest player on the court with them

[Godfather]

Nash
Marion
Bell
Diaw
Barbosa
House
James Jones
Kurt Thomas
Pat Burke

I'm waiting for someone to explain how this team is better than wades heat this year if you take out wade and nash

If you put any other swing man on that team and they don't make the playoffs, let alone win 54 games in the western conference (which was significantly better that year)

Barbosa
Kobe/Wade/Lebron/Iverson
Bell
Marion
Diaw

Doesn't make the playoffs, Lebron would be the tallest player on the court with them
:roll::roll::roll:

Are you ****ing retarded?

Bell was a solid scorer and one of the better perimeter defenders in the league.

Diaw was one of the biggest match up problems on the low post.

Barbosa was a sixth man of the year canidate.

Marion was a third team all NBA second team defensive player who was the best pound for pound defender in the league.

Wade's second best player is a 19 year old chucker.

Shows what you know.

[spree43]

:roll::roll::roll:

Are you ****ing retarded?

Bell was a solid scorer and one of the better perimeter defenders in the league.

Diaw was one of the biggest match up problems on the low post.

Barbosa was a sixth man of the year canidate.

Marion was a third team all NBA second team defensive player who was the best pound for pound defender in the league.

Wade's second best player is a 19 year old chucker.

Shows what you know.

Wade had Marion this year and he couldn't play without Nash, this is well known

Diaw caused matchup problems in the low post! He was a swingman playing centre! He was about the same level as Haslem, undersized big man, except haslem brings D, Diaw borught offense

Bell is a role player at best, really not much better a player than Chalmers

Barbosa was young and only averaged 13 ppg and was only that good because of Nash (not now, but back then he was) not as good as Beasely, or similar skill

James Jones plays for the Heat this year, and is just as good, but needs a distributor to be effective

If Daquan Cook played with prime nash he would have been a good scorer off the bench (12 or 13 points much m,ore effectively)

[Auka]

:roll::roll::roll:

Are you ****ing retarded?

Bell was a solid scorer and one of the better perimeter defenders in the league.

Diaw was one of the biggest match up problems on the low post.

Barbosa was a sixth man of the year canidate.

Marion was a third team all NBA second team defensive player who was the best pound for pound defender in the league.

Wade's second best player is a 19 year old chucker.

Shows what you know.
Please, Diaw could be exploited every time down the court on defense because his lack of size at CENTRE. Bell was a spot up 3 point shooter. That team, in the Western Conference should have gotten slaughtered by other teams because of our lack of size.

[tastystaci]

:roll: According to Godfather that all-star laden team underperformed. They should've won 60+ with a Finals appearance minimum. What a dumbass.

Godfather= Epic Failure

[raptorfan_dr07]

Wade had Marion this year and he couldn't play without Nash, this is well known

Diaw caused matchup problems in the low post! He was a swingman playing centre! He was about the same level as Haslem, undersized big man, except haslem brings D, Diaw borught offense

Bell is a role player at best, really not much better a player than Chalmers

Barbosa was young and only averaged 13 ppg and was only that good because of Nash (not now, but back then he was) not as good as Beasely, or similar skill

James Jones plays for the Heat this year, and is just as good, but needs a distributor to be effective

If Daquan Cook played with prime nash he would have been a good scorer off the bench (12 or 13 points much m,ore effectively)

The reason why I kind of like Nash's 06 MVP over others. That team had no size whatsoever and wasn't that talented outside of Nash and Marion. Amare, Kurt Thomas, and Brian Grant were hurt for pretty much the whole year and Phoenix still managed to be one of the top 2 teams in the West with Nash leading the way. Boris Diaw was their starting C, in the West. Tim Thomas was one of their key players.

[Prodigy]

But the Mavs still got better without him. What kind of MVP gets traded and his former team gets better ?

Take a look at this list, it's the difference in wins a team had after an MVP or a soon-to-be MVP left the team :

76ers (Charles Barkley) : -9
Phoenix (Barkley) : -1
Wolves (KG) : -10
76ers (AI) : -3
Lakers (Shaq) : -22
Utah (Malone) : -5
Chicago (MJ) : -2 and -49
Houston (Hakeem) : -17
Houston (Moses Malone) : -32

Dallas (Nash) : +6

And I'm too lazy to check for the pre-1980 MVPs, but I think it's safe to say Nash is the only MVP who made his former team better when he left. What's even worse is that he wasn't even traded, he walked away and the Mavs got nothing in return. And they still got better. Wow, how valuable.


You don't watch basketball. Stop pretending you do. There's a reason why the Mavs won 60 games the previous season and made it to the WCF and only got to the first round in 04. His name is Antoine Walker. It has nothing to do with Nash. That whole team was a mess.

As for the Mavs getting better after Nash leaving, well Nash took the Suns and stomped them in the second round so...

[indiefan23]

Virtually any high-level offensive player who also played good defense should do the trick.

Menh, there was no high-level offensive player on Nash's level at all and his defense is actually under rated. He's not a great on ball defender but plays great team defense and is always at the top of the league in drawn charges.

Like I said, show me specifics. Which player was better then Nash in his MVP years and specifically, which player was more valuable to and responsible for his team's success?

[indiefan23]

Hmm, how original, the "Nash makes his teammates better" argument. Tell me, how much better did he make those teammates on the defensive end when his man blew by him at will ? How good of a leader is he if you can't even count on him on critical situations ? What kind of MVP can get abused by scrub PGs every single night ? He and Magic are the only back-to-back MVPs who have never been on an All-NBA Defensive team, and Magic was never the liability Nash was/is. Nash is just horrible on the defensive end, just horrible. And for an MVP ? He's probably the worst defender to ever win an MVP, even worse than Dirk. If he had won the MVOP, Most Valuable Offensive Player, I'd have nothing to say about it, but defense is half the game, even more, so sorry, Nash didn't deserve his MVPs.

And FYI, when Nash won his 1st MVP, I didn't think it was primarly because of Amare or JJ. It was because of D'Antoni. I hate his style of coaching, and when I say hate, I really f*cking hate it. I can't watch one of his team play without throwing up. He's almost as bad as Don Nelson, maybe even worse. But you can't argue that the Suns had the best offense in the league. All right Nash had a lot to do with that, but it wasn't Nash who decided they should push the ball at every opportunity. It wasn't Nash who decided they would play small ball. It wasn't Nash who came up with the 7 seconds or less offense (God I just threw up :ohwell:). Just look what he's done in New York. He makes Chris f*cking Duhon look like an All-Star on some nights. Some people even think David Lee should have gone to the All-Star Game this year (I just threw up again ...).

Sports media was saturated with reasons Nash's MVP was a joke ? Really ? Everyone was sucking his dick when he won. All you heard back then "What an unselfish player, he's incredible, look what he's done with that team bla bla bla".

And I've never said Nash was a bad player, obviously he was the best offensive PG in the league. So I'm not surprised he had an awesome series against Dallas. That's what great offensive players do. Sometimes, they just explode. But can they win ? That's another question. I really believe you can't win anything if your star only plays one half of the game, no matter how awesome he is at what he does. And one playoff series doesn't mean anything. Amare averaged something like 38 points against the Spurs in the playoffs one year, I guess he was the MVP then ? BTW, how many MVPs lost a series when one of their teammates averaged more than 35 points ? Hmm ...

And I don't care his owner is cheap, the guy played with a disguting amount of talent on his team. He played with Amare, Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, Shaq, Eddie House, Tim Thomas, Leandro Barbosa, Boris Diaw, Grant Hill, Quentin Richardson, maybe a few others, and he still couldn't win. You mean he needed a few more guys to win ? Wasn't it enough ? Give LeBron, Kobe, Jason Kidd or AI the same talent and they'll get you a title, without any doubt. There's a 90% chance either Kobe or LeBron wins a title this year, and they don't have as much talent on their teams right now. Jason Kidd went twice to the Finals, took the Spurs to 6 games with who ? Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, Kerry Kittles, Jason Collins, Mutombo, Lucious Harris ? AI went to the Finals and won a game against the mighty Lakers when his second leading scorer in the playoffs was Aaron McKie. Aaron McKie ... You really think he couldn't get a title with Amare, Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson ? Or Amare, Shawn Marion and Barbosa ?

I still don't have the energy to deal with this comedy. Do you admit I thoroughly pwned you and you've wildly under rated Nash? You know I have. The question is if you're man enough to admit it. Either way, I win or you lose. Which is it?

[indiefan23]

So what happens to the Marcus Cambys of the league who harm their team defense by pointlessly roaming for blocked shots, getting pumped faked to death, leave their man for blocks too soon, etc...?

Of course it is always a good thing to block a shot, or alter a shot, but if the consequences of attempting to blocking shots/altering shots are severe, then the block shot statistic becomes misleading.

To give an extreme example, I'd much prefer 15 altered shots, 0 blocks, and 10 points needlessly given up over block attempts to 15 altered shots, 3 blocks, and 30 points needlessly given up over block attempts.

Uh, I think thats a pretty gross misinterpertation of Camby's game. He's DPOY material. Its kind of weak to suggest he just plays for stats. If he didn't play for stats early in his career why would he later in his career? Unless you're just a Camby hater or something, not sure.

[indiefan23]

in 06 the suns won 54 games this was there roster only including players that played 30 + games

Nash
Marion - Only ever good when playing with Nash
Bell - Role Player
Diaw - 6'8 starting centre
Barbosa - 13 ppg, still young and undeveloped
House - do i need to say anything
James Jones - can barely make the court on the heat!
Kurt Thomas - 8 and 8, what a star
EDIT: I missed Pat Burke (42 games, 8 minutes a game, what a star)

Thats all of them
Amare played 3 games, Tim Thomas play 26

Is that better than this years heat team? If you take out Nash and wade, I don't see a beasely quality player there, and this years heat traded away marion


IN THE STACKED WESTERN CONFERENCE

Honestly, I love Nash, but this is not me overembellishing. Your post just shocked me. I had no idea how bad his team was. Nash was unquestionably the best player in the world that year. If Wade had won 54 games in a weaker conference this year on his better team he probably would have won MVP too.

[indiefan23]

I've already wasted enough time. There's no need to debate with someone who thinks there's only one side of the ball.

Nash's team defense is solid. He always pushes faster players into his bigs. He's always at the top of the league in team drawn charges and gets lots of steals while rarely gambling for them. The Suns were often one of the better defensive teams in the league then one of the worst ones while always being the best offensive one. They also had the best transition defense in the league every year they played. That tired 'they didn't play defense' argument is so weak. As if it was their defense that prevented them from getting a title.

It doesn't matter. We both know my rock solid explanation of Nash's performance in the playoffs ripped you a new poo hole as all you've done is skirt around the issue since it was posted. You can look for wahtever reasons you want to exist the discussion but we both know why you want out now and it has nothing to do with your 'time' and lots to do with your 'pride'.

[Mikaiel]

I still don't have the energy to deal with this comedy. Do you admit I thoroughly pwned you and you've wildly under rated Nash? You know I have. The question is if you're man enough to admit it. Either way, I win or you lose. Which is it?

I wasn't aware you "pwned me" (how retarded are you btw ? Are you like 12 or something ?". All you did was post his stats for one freaking series. That's it. Why can't you talk about how he never could defeat the Spurs ? How they've never been in the Finals ? The Mavs did all those things btw. And they beat the Suns in the WCF too. You've proven absolutely nothing, except how immature you are.

[indiefan23]

You guys are such f*ckin' dopes. You put Ivo in Nash's place and he gets f*ckin' abused. Anyone who know basketball knows that Ivo is a horrible defender, I don't know how you even defend that. Because he put up steals numbers with Mutumbo, Tyrone Hill, Aaron Mckie, and Eric Snow behind him? This is such a mentally challenged argument.

I disagree about Iverson, when motivated by Larry Brown for that one year he was a great defender although undersized and had to be protected from the post. I absolutely agree however that its a lot easier to defend when you've got the best shot blocker in history (cept Dream maybe) erasing all your mistakes instead of Amare. The suns should have traded Amare. Their front office has a massive FAIL across it after Colangelo left.

[Bigsmoke]

No need to get b****y with me, its a turn of phrase

Here is my full list

#1. Shaq (00)
#2. Nash (05)
#3. Nash (06)
#4. Lebron (09)
#5. Iverson (01)
#6. Duncan (02)
#7. Dirk (07)
#8. Kobe (08)
#9. Duncan (03)
#10. Garnett (04)

Don't know if this helps the arguement, but Mutumbo was all NBA second team, Larry Brown was coach of the year, and Aaron McKie Sixth Man

Nash over LeBron?

how?

[Mikaiel]

Nash's team defense is solid. He always pushes faster players into his bigs. He's always at the top of the league in team drawn charges and gets lots of steals while rarely gambling for them. The Suns were often one of the better defensive teams in the league then one of the worst ones while always being the best offensive one. They also had the best transition defense in the league every year they played. That tired 'they didn't play defense' argument is so weak. As if it was their defense that prevented them from getting a title.

It doesn't matter. We both know my rock solid explanation of Nash's performance in the playoffs ripped you a new poo hole as all you've done is skirt around the issue since it was posted. You can look for wahtever reasons you want to exist the discussion but we both know why you want out now and it has nothing to do with your 'time' and lots to do with your 'pride'.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Holy sh!t, how can someone be so stupid ? The Suns the best transition defense in the league ? :roll:

The only "defense" they played was baiting opponents into playing their own game. Teams got caught up in the running game and couldn't compete with them. But once they faced a disciplined team, that takes care of every possession and want to make it a half-court game, it gets ugly. Suddenly they can't stop anyone. That's the difference between good, pure basketball, the way basketball should be played, and garbage basketball.

[indiefan23]

The fact you listed Mutombo when Theo Ratliff played with AI in more games says alot.

The fact AI missed gms when Mutombo was aquired again says alot.
Rebounds Per Game
1. Dikembe Mutombo-TOT 13.5
2001 - all defensive team center

did only play 26 games...

Except:

Blocks Per Game
1. Theo Ratliff-PHI 3.7
5. Dikembe Mutombo-TOT 2.7



The fact you dont even realize Raja Bell hardly parted his rear end from the bench says alot.

Except:

Raja Bell
05-06: 37.5 mpg
06-07: 37.4 with full team


The fact Matt Geiger (r u serious?) wasnt a shot blocker, wasnt a shot alterer just an intimidator/protector of AI BUT hardly was healthy that season again SAYS ALOT.

Again:

Blocks Per Game
1. Theo Ratliff-PHI 3.7
5. Dikembe Mutombo-TOT 2.7

Should I get a pic from failblog to throw up here? Cuz you fail.

[indiefan23]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Holy sh!t, how can someone be so stupid ? The Suns the best transition defense in the league ? :roll:

The only "defense" they played was baiting opponents into playing their own game. Teams got caught up in the running game and couldn't compete with them. But once they faced a disciplined team, that takes care of every possession and want to make it a half-court game, it gets ugly. Suddenly they can't stop anyone. That's the difference between good, pure basketball, the way basketball should be played, and garbage basketball.

See, you're running around shooting your mouth off about how others don't know basketball but you're just spouting all the other cliches about defense that everyone who does not really know the game says.

The Suns transition D was one of their strongest suits and Marion was a monster on that team.

Anyway, look at yourself. You said I'm stupid for stating their transition defense was great and 'prove' it by stating


But once they faced a disciplined team, that takes care of every possession and want to make it a half-court game, it gets ugly.

Which makes you too ignorant about the game to realize that 'transition defense' means defending people as they are in 'transition' from one half of the court to the other. When you defend a half-court game there is no transition to defend.

The Spurs and Pistons defense was great on all levels but their teams were bigger and slower and couldn't get back as fast as the suns to tamper with the other team's fast breaks as well. When they had Marion AND Joe Johnson the Suns 'transition defense' was second to none and I'd argue that when they had Bell and Marion as well. Once again, you fail. Are you not sick of this yet? You try a different strategy to attack this player and team and because you're trying to prove something that's wrong you just get destroyed every time. When are you just going to admit that Steve Nash was a ridiculously great basketball player?

[Bush4Ever]

He's DPOY material.

He absolutely is not. Watch the games, or ask Denver fans.

I would wager a good chunk of them would agree with my general views about Marcus Camby on defense.

[indiefan23]

I wasn't aware you "pwned me" (how retarded are you btw ? Are you like 12 or something ?". All you did was post his stats for one freaking series. That's it. Why can't you talk about how he never could defeat the Spurs ? How they've never been in the Finals ? The Mavs did all those things btw. And they beat the Suns in the WCF too. You've proven absolutely nothing, except how immature you are.

Too silly for words. They did defeat the Spurs. When you lose to someone because they're cheat you are the winner. It means the cowards who can't stand up and play like men are scared of you. The Spurs championship is the lowest point in league history and the ratings reflected that soundly.

Its kind of like you claiming Nash made the Mavs better by leaving and that he was a garbage player, me proving conclusively to you that no one since prime Michael Jordan has had a series like Nash did when he proved that theroy 100% wrong, and then you grasping at straws (like not knowing what transition defense is) to feel better about it.

[Mikaiel]

Hey genius, you also said "their defense isn't what cost them the title" and "they were one of the best defensive teams". But anyway, I stop here, you're too stupid sorry. I might have to put you on my ignore list or I'll probably kill someone this week. Nash a ridiculously great basketball player ? http://www.soonet.ca/images/smilies/Smile/suicide.gif

But coming from the guy who said "Camby was more athletic than Wilt" and "Big Baby Davis can do all the things Wilt did", I guess I should have seen it coming.

[indiefan23]

hahahaa usin his playoff run when your argument gets smacked for a home run.

Excuse me while i take my bases. Give me a second.


Home run? He said the Sixers had a really great defensive team with an all time defensive coach and that AI wasn't so much a part of that as he was there mostly for offense. He's right. I don't see a home run there.

[Bush4Ever]

Menh, there was no high-level offensive player on Nash's level at all and his defense is actually under rated. He's not a great on ball defender but plays great team defense and is always at the top of the league in drawn charges.

Like I said, show me specifics. Which player was better then Nash in his MVP years and specifically, which player was more valuable to and responsible for his team's success?

Sure. Can you stop dodging the points and directly prove your position (the burden of proof falls on you when you assert the positive).

Team defense is held in much lower regard in comparison to individual defense the further you get away from the hoop. Nash's individual defensive liabilities in no way are countered by his supposed "team defensive" skills (which haven't been proven by the way).

But as to your question:

In 2005, Duncan (defensive star) and Jason Kidd (above-average defender) are an example of a big and a small who were better than Nash in 2005, IMO, Duncan for sure.

[indiefan23]

Hey genius, you also said "their defense isn't what cost them the title"

Its not. As I listed in the unquestioned smack down I laid on you they lost because of Sarver predominantly.


and "they were one of the best defensive teams".

Better. When you're in the top half of the league in defense you're one of the better defensive teams.


But anyway, I stop here, you're too stupid sorry. I might have to put you on my ignore list or I'll probably kill someone this week. Nash a ridiculously great basketball player ?

But coming from the guy who said "Camby was more athletic than Wilt" and "Big Baby Davis can do all the things Wilt did", I guess I should have seen it coming.

Ah, I see. You're rubbed a little the wrong way from that experience. Ya know, this is kind of the same. You set them up and I knock them down over and over you start to think that setting them up is the same thing. Its not.

You can try to buddy up with him but keep in mind he said players from the 50's would not compete, but dominate in the 90s. He said Isiah Thomas, Charles Barkley, Larry Bird, Magic and Tim Freaking Duncan were poor athletes and claims that this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaKt5hsTl8s

and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVtr2t7SvFE

is the same level of competition as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE&feature=PlayList&p=01C195BB561A700E&index=0&playnext=1

and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

You fail.

[indiefan23]

Sure. Can you stop dodging the points and directly prove your position (the burden of proof falls on you when you assert the positive).

Team defense is held in much lower regard in comparison to individual defense the further you get away from the hoop. Nash's individual defensive liabilities in no way are countered by his supposed "team defensive" skills (which haven't been proven by the way).

But as to your question:

In 2005, Duncan (defensive star) and Jason Kidd (above-average defender) are an example of a big and a small who were better than Nash in 2005, IMO, Duncan for sure.

Uh, I'm not dodging points. Its pretty difficult to prove or disprove anything defensively as defensive stats are ridiculously sparse. Team defense is not as well regarded but it should be. A team playing good defense as a unit is much more important then locking someone down or getting lots of steals. Lock down defenders are awesome but its often a role player's job. Think about it: if Tony Parker, who's a defensive liability too, didn't know how to play defense within his team do you think Duncan looks so good stopping all those PG's at the rim? No cuz TP and his team set Duncan up to make the defensive play in the paint constantly. Nash's failings at D have 'much' more to do with the laziness of Amare Stoudamire to commit then Nash's inability to play basketball. The reason team D is not well regarded is only due to visibility and stats.

Duncan is a solid choice but I think you've gotta consider that MVP is an award for being the most responsible for your team's wins. Duncan is amazing but his team was also much better then 29 wins and played way better when he's on the bench then the Suns did when Nash was there.

Jason Kidd is great too but only won 42 games in a much weaker eastren conference. Also the only reason they made the playoffs was because Carter showed up, started trying, and used his massively unused talent to push them there. By 05 Kidd has lost a step: just no one wanted to talk about it.

In both cases a big reason I stated was that much like when KG showed up Nash changed the culture of an entire team and forced his positive attitude on an dysfunctional franchise resulting in a 33 win increase and instant elite team status. No slam to Duncan but as I mentioned he's always had it easy being groomed as a franchise player under one of the best centers of all time with a fantastic coach and front office. The next MVP might not have happened had Nash not been so disrespected honestly. But it still might have. With a much better team, both with Shawn Marion, in a much weaker conference, Wade got 10 fewer wins out of the Heat. Nash lost his best scorer and defender.

Lastly, and I love Tim Duncan, but I think we've seen how important Manu Ginobli is to this team and its been very much that way for a long, long time. Manu is a superstar in role player's clothing and he finishes their games, not Duncan. I love the guy but without Manu they are not that same team. Without Sarver forcing giveaways the suns have one of their titles and maybe 2.

Also, the Suns team was so intensely built around Steve Nash and his skills. You can say that the Suns wern't the best defensive team, they wern't, but they won more games then everyone else playing the same teams and game as everyone else. If the Spurs win more then anyone because a team built around TD's specific skill set and his individual play in that system pushed them from average to elite then kudos, give him the MVP. I don't see any reason why its suddenly doesn't count if Nash is doing the exact same thing but his style of winning is not conventional. Steve Nash is a 6'1" point guard and played the best basketball he possibly could and took a 29 win team to the best record in the NBA. I don't see anyone else accomplishing that or bringing that kind of value to their team.

Anyway, don't take it the wrong way, you've gotta understand. If you're point is that "Hey, Tim Duncan should have been MVP. He was the best player." I respect that. TD is TD and is obviously at the top of the stack. I do think that year Nash was better but not so much so that it was unquestionably so under any and all criteria. Nash was not 88 Jordan or 09 Bron. I do think he was pretty unquestionably the player most valuable to his team's elite success though and that's primarily why I think he won.

I just abjectly disagree that out of 10 lists 10 people put his two MVP seasons at the bottom and say he's was a joke. Nash is in the conversation those years with Duncan and who's the best really depends on what criteria you're going to rate them on.

Duncan is close and obviously the center of the team but I think they leaned on Manu/Parker as a combo just as much. The spurs strength was they could play any style. Half court they could D up with Duncan as the anchor. Full court they could run with Manu/Parker. The suns only played one style... Steve Nash, and its the only way they ever won games.

So I addressed your points as best I could (sorry that is convoluted, its late). Nash isn't a all time defender at all. You don't win MVP or be 'the best' in my books for being a good one or two way player though... you get it for being the guy who individually makes your team win more then anyone else and IMHO Nash had that stats locked over anyone for 3 straight years. I don't see anyone who was more important on such a level. Especially in 06 for actually managing 54 wins and 07 when they hands down had the best team in the NBA.

[Mikaiel]

Nash's teammates in 04-05 : NBA 2nd team center (All-Star), NBA 3rd team forward (All-Star), 3 point shootout winner (and a Coach of the Year). Didn't get to the Finals even though Amare dropped 38 points against the Spurs. How many real MVPs lost a series when one of their teammates averaged 35+ points ? I guess none.

Nash's teamates in 05-06 : MIP, NBA 3rd team forward (All-Star). No Finals.

Nash's teammates in 06-07 : NBA 1st team center (All-Star), Sixth man of the year, Defensive 1st team guard, All-Star forward. No Finals.

Nash's teammates in 07-08 : NBA 2nd team center (All-Star), Defensive 2nd team guard (and the MDE). No Finals.

Jason Kidd in 01-02 and 02-03 : No one. Not a single All-Star. No one elected in an All-NBA team or Defensive team. Finals.

LeBron James in 06-07 : No one. Finals.

Kobe in 07-08 : No one. Finals.

Billups in 03-04 : Defensive 1st team and NBA 2nd team center (All-Star). Title.

Billups in 04-05 : DPOY and NBA 3rd team center (All-Star). Finals.

Should I continue with every single NBA star and MVP caliber player who won more without the kind of talent Nash had ? If your excuse is "the owner is cheap", then you're stupid. Those guys would guarentee you a title if they could play with that kind of talent. But for Nash it's not enough ? Hmm ...

[indiefan23]

He absolutely is not. Watch the games, or ask Denver fans.

I would wager a good chunk of them would agree with my general views about Marcus Camby on defense.

I totally disagree. You think the reason they had bad D was Camby? This is exactly the point I was making about team defense. Denver's defensive system was broken on the perimeter who didn't funnel penetration into Camby protecting the rim. Billups defensively is just better then AI at this point in his career and you can see it as the team.

And thats before you consider that Melo played no D and Martin/Nene were still recovering from injuries last year. On a team taht utilized him right Camby would be a anchor and a half.

[GOBB]

Rebounds Per Game
1. Dikembe Mutombo-TOT 13.5
2001 - all defensive team center

did only play 26 games...

Except:

Blocks Per Game
1. Theo Ratliff-PHI 3.7
5. Dikembe Mutombo-TOT 2.7


I already posted who played Center.

1. He never mentioned Theo Ratliff apart of his argument
2. Mutombo only played 16gms with AI in the reg season yet somehow AI steals per game were a result of having Deke.
3. I already said if you want to argue who was behind AI start with Theo Ratlif. Then start with Lynch, Hill and at times Mckie as help defenders.

What you posted was utterly meaningless. Good job genius.




Except:

Raja Bell
05-06: 37.5 mpg
06-07: 37.4 with full team

:confusedshrug:

Why are you posting this? AI won MVP in the 00-01 season. Raja Bell was a bench played picked up late in the season (April) and played 5 games. 3 of which AI didnt play in. Yet AI had Raja Bell behind him? Ok.

And these stats tell the board what? You can google? Ok part II

:roll:




Again:

Blocks Per Game
1. Theo Ratliff-PHI 3.7
5. Dikembe Mutombo-TOT 2.7

Meaningless.


Should I get a pic from failblog to throw up here? Cuz you fail.

No, you should get a fail photo and post it as your avatar. This post was utter fail. You attempted to play Capt Save a Hoe and the bytch (tastycake) fell to her death. Some hero you are.

Now are you going to also argue Steve Nash is as good if not better than Iverson defensively? I mean you chimed in this argument and got KO'd. Want to get KO'd again? Well?

[indiefan23]

Oh my, one more before bed...


Nash's teammates in 04-05 : NBA 2nd team center (All-Star), NBA 3rd team forward (All-Star), 3 point shootout winner (and a Coach of the Year). Didn't get to the Finals even though Amare dropped 38 points against the Spurs. How many real MVPs lost a series when one of their teammates averaged 35+ points ? I guess none.

How many of them had any of that before Nash? That's right. Funny how the argument we are making is that Nash made everyone dramatically better and you're showing how he made everyone dramatically better. Lots of rookie teams lose to vet ones in the playoffs. Not many push them hard and almost make the finals.



Nash's teamates in 05-06 : MIP, NBA 3rd team forward (All-Star). No Finals.


Again players who have never done jack without Nash. How dumb an assertion can you make? You're aware this is the weakest group of players to make the West finals since like, the 1970s, right? If you have to go back 30 or 40 years to find one players lifting his teammates that much its no wonder they gave Nash the MVP.


Nash's teammates in 06-07 : NBA 1st team center (All-Star), Sixth man of the year, Defensive 1st team guard, All-Star forward. No Finals.

SA cheated. The incompetent league rewarded. Not Nash's fault.


Nash's teammates in 07-08 : NBA 2nd team center (All-Star), Defensive 2nd team guard (and the MDE). No Finals.

Again, a move is made by the front office that obviously destroys the team's chemistry and you're blaming Steve Nash. Shaq sucked dude.


Jason Kidd in 01-02 and 02-03 : No one. Not a single All-Star. No one elected in an All-NBA team or Defensive team. Finals.

Uh... so your argument on why Nash should not be the MVP in 05 is because in 01 and 02 there were other players who were better and deserved it more then Jason Kidd with 52 wins in a stupidly weak conference where the aforementioned chucker Antoine Walker could get 2 less wins then you with a crap team? You think thats better then Tim Duncan's 58 games in one of the strongest conferences ever? Or the next year when the Spurs got 60 wins in an intensely better conference to Kidd's 49?

Who cares if Jason Kidd got to the finals by going through the Bucks, hornets celtics and pistons (sans Sheed) when all four of those teams sucked? To win MVP you have to push your team from somewhere much lower to somewhere much higher. In 05 Nash pushed the suns from a bad team to the best record in basketball. In 06 he pushed a much, much crappier team talent wise to elite. In 07 Nash pushed the Suns to the very arguable GOAT offensive team. Jason is a an awesome point but there's no GOAT tags you can attach to his resume.

Lastly, Nash's teams pushed the Spurs. The Spurs beat the living **** out of Jason Kidd. The finals were joke with Kidd. When SA/PHX met in the playoffs people called it 'the real finals' because they were. I can't believe you're comparing Jason Kidd to Nash. Kidd was the best point for years and underachieved in every one of them.


LeBron James in 06-07 : No one. Finals.

Kobe in 07-08 : No one. Finals.

Billups in 03-04 : Defensive 1st team and NBA 2nd team center (All-Star). Title.

Billups in 04-05 : DPOY and NBA 3rd team center (All-Star). Finals.

Should I continue with every single NBA star and MVP caliber player who won more without the kind of talent Nash had ? If your excuse is "the owner is cheap", then you're stupid. Those guys would guarentee you a title if they could play with that kind of talent. But for Nash it's not enough ? Hmm ...

I was posting some thoughts but saw how silly it was. That's the most ridiculous evaluation of those finals teams a human could produce. You call Corpse Shaq a 2 team center yet call Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom, both former franchise player who are still in their prime "no one". Then you neglect to mention Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince and Rasheed freaking Wallace as if it was all Billups.

Even Bron had at least some talent on his team and a very good defensive team but you're trying to put fourth the pretension that Marion and other team's bench players like Tim Thomas and James Jones getting heavy rotation minutes equates to playing on the best defensive team of all time with 4 all stars or having two former franchise players in their primes with solid role players. Other then Marion none of PHX's starters are even the 6'th man on those other teams you mentioned.

Either way, I can see that you've decided to switch to troll mode after the smack down I laid on you. You're now ignoring the best series performance by any player since Michael Jordan after saying Steve Nash was a garbage and couldn't play. Again, we both know you've got no response to it because garbage basketball players can't raise their game to GOAT levels to take over an entire series. Poo poo it all you want: you've got nothing but excuses and logic that states Pau Gasol is no one.

Steve Nash turned Tim Thomas into a playoff hero. And with that one sentence you have been owned. Again. TIM FU@KING THOMAS!

[GOBB]

I reccomend next time you poke out your chest before I deflate it? You make a better effort at realizing what the argument is/was before trying to intervene. Makes you look less of a jackass.

Proof #1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2981930&postcount=158)

I see you didnt comment on that post. But hey if you want to take tastycakes argument as your own and go against me? I'll take another victory and pump my fist ala MJ & Tiger Woods.

If I were you? I'd take this time to say "I apologize" and go to bed.

[MaxFly]

MVP's should be the guy who does the most with his team or more with less.
Personally, I would have shaq first, but only put garnett SLIGHTLY below him.
Then AI.
Seriously, the sixers had absolutely no reason to be in the finals, at all.

The Sixers had the best record out east... DPOY, Coach of the Year, and a few other "of the Year" winners... not to mention the east was horrible.

[indiefan23]

I already posted who played Center.

1. He never mentioned Theo Ratliff apart of his argument
2. Mutombo only played 16gms with AI in the reg season yet somehow AI steals per game were a result of having Deke.
3. I already said if you want to argue who was behind AI start with Theo Ratlif. Then start with Lynch, Hill and at times Mckie as help defenders.

What you posted was utterly meaningless. Good job genius.

What difference does it make if he said 'theo ratlif'? Its semantic. Everyone knows Iverson was on a defensive powerhouse and it helped cover his defensive liabilities just like he said. Who cares if he remembers the playoffs more. The guy is still right about AI. You just admitted it. Grow up and accept it.


:confusedshrug:

Why are you posting this? AI won MVP in the 00-01 season. Raja Bell was a bench played picked up late in the season (April) and played 5 games. 3 of which AI didnt play in. Yet AI had Raja Bell behind him? Ok.

And these stats tell the board what? You can google? Ok part II

:roll:

You claimed Raja Bell spent his entire 06 season with his butt off the pine:


The fact you dont even realize Raja Bell hardly parted his rear end from the bench says alot.

implying his contribution takes away from Nash carrying the team without 2 of their three best. Bell played the same minutes that year as he did the next year. Those stats tell the board that you don't know what you are talking about and that you have a hard time keeping all the ignorant and incorrect statements you've made straight.



Blocks Per Game
1. Theo Ratliff-PHI 3.7
5. Dikembe Mutombo-TOT 2.7

Meaningless.

You stated that Mutombo wasn't there at all for the regular season. Then implied that it was Matt Geiger protecting the rim.


The fact Matt Geiger (r u serious?) wasnt a shot blocker, wasnt a shot alterer just an intimidator/protector of AI BUT hardly was healthy that season again SAYS ALOT.

Mutombo wasn't there. Instead of the 5'th BPG leader they had the #1 guy.


No, you should get a fail photo and post it as your avatar. This post was utter fail. You attempted to play Capt Save a Hoe and the bytch (tastycake) fell to her death. Some hero you are.

Now are you going to also argue Steve Nash is as good if not better than Iverson defensively? I mean you chimed in this argument and got KO'd. Want to get KO'd again? Well?

Making stupid statements and then forgetting what you were talking about? Yes, please bring your delicious KO pie my way. Debating with you is like playing with a kitten. :)

[indiefan23]

I reccomend next time you poke out your chest before I deflate it? You make a better effort at realizing what the argument is/was before trying to intervene. Makes you look less of a jackass.

Proof #1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2981930&postcount=158)

I see you didnt comment on that post. But hey if you want to take tastycakes argument as your own and go against me? I'll take another victory and pump my fist ala MJ & Tiger Woods.

If I were you? I'd take this time to say "I apologize" and go to bed.

That's seriously the best you've got? That someone said they could probably make an argument for Nash's defense being on par? ;0 Not even claiming it, but just saying they could make an argument. ;0 I must be doing lots better then I thought I was. Deflation 0.

Here's an argument. While Iverson is a better on ball defender Iverson hurts his team by gambling for steals. Nash plays better team defense as is seen from Iverson's ego pushes him to take his man one on one much too often, reducing his ability to force his man into Camby/Nene/Martin to receive help defense. When a strong middle presence is on court Nash can hide himself defensively making up for the difference, especially when you consider he routinely is among the league leaders in drawn charges. These put Nash's defensive abilities on par with Iverson and possibly depending on the team's structure even less of a liability.

I don't think he's better then Iverson but thats a pretty reasonable argument he is. Because there are 0 stats theres no way to show it either way though so thats about as far as it can be taken.

Anyway, come on and deflate me superstar. It hurts about as much as, uh, a moron on the internet who thinks he's smarter then I am but actually can't hold my jock.

[Mikaiel]

Uh... so your argument on why Nash should not be the MVP in 05 is because in 01 and 02 there were other players who were better and deserved it more then Jason Kidd with 52 wins in a stupidly weak conference where the aforementioned chucker Antoine Walker could get 2 less wins then you with a crap team? You think thats better then Tim Duncan's 58 games in one of the strongest conferences ever? Or the next year when the Spurs got 60 wins in an intensely better conference to Kidd's 49?

I was talking about how he didn't win with all the talent he had around, not his MVPs. And why didn't Kidd deserve the MVP that year ? He changed the culture of that team, bla bla bla, like Nash did in Phoenix. And he played defense.


Kidd was the best point for years and underachieved in every one of them.

:roll: Kidd's teams overachieved, it's Nash who always underachieved, at least in Phoenix.


I was posting some thoughts but saw how silly it was. That's the most ridiculous evaluation of those finals teams a human could produce. You call Corpse Shaq a 2 team center yet call Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom, both former franchise player who are still in their prime "no one".

1. The 2nd team center was Amare, not Shaq.

2. Lamar Odom a franchise player ? :roll:

3. Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom did not make an All-NBA team. That's all I was listing.


Even Bron had at least some talent on his team and a very good defensive team but you're trying to put fourth the pretension that Marion and other team's bench players like Tim Thomas and James Jones getting heavy rotation minutes equates to playing on the best defensive team of all time with 4 all stars or having two former franchise players in their primes with solid role players.

LeBron played with 4 all stars ? That's new. No other Cav made the All-Star in '07, and certainly not 3 of them.


Steve Nash turned Tim Thomas into a playoff hero. And with that one sentence you have been owned. Again. TIM FU@KING THOMAS!

D'Antoni did, not Steve Nash. See : Duhon, Chris.

[GOBB]

What difference does it make if he said 'theo ratlif'? Its semantic. Everyone knows Iverson was on a defensive powerhouse and it helped cover his defensive liabilities just like he said. Who cares if he remembers the playoffs more. The guy is still right about AI. You just admitted it. Grow up and accept it.

He's wrong. I suggest you READ his argument. Just like you were WRONG that someone actually said Nash was as good if not a better defender than AI. And most of the names he listed were injured and/or had no effect on AI's defensive liabilities which werent GREAT in 01. He couldnt guard teams opposing SGs which was Eric Snow's job. Outside of that where was he a liability? By all means scratch your ass and pull some shyt out of it.


You claimed Raja Bell spent his entire 06 season with his butt off the pine:

Wrong (seems to be your theme).

I said Raja Bell spent his butt on the pine in AI MVP season. Again take time to READ tastycakes ARGUMENT dipshyt. Who the f*ck cares about 06 when Raja Bell wasnt in Philadelphia? What are you even arguing? :oldlol:

implying his contribution takes away from Nash carrying the team without 2 of their three best. Bell played the same minutes that year as he did the next year. Those stats tell the board that you don't know what you are talking about and that you have a hard time keeping all the ignorant and incorrect statements you've made straight.




You stated that Mutombo wasn't there at all for the regular season. Then implied that it was Matt Geiger protecting the rim.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Damn your reading and comprehension is TERRIBLE. What are you 10? Seriously

I said Mutombo wasnt around for AI for 71gms. Meaning he only played with AI about 18gms in his MVP season during the regular season. So why would anyone LIST Mutombo and not Theo Ratliff who was there for 50gms of AI's 71gms? Who had more of an impact protecting the rim, the interior? How could anyone fail to mention him but list Mutombo as the reson why AI was playing good defense that MVP season?

Then to list Matt Geiger when he was injured most of the season is even more laughable. He isnt a shot blocker. He doesnt alter shots. And he only played in 30 or some games.

He argued Matt Geiger, Raja Bell, Mutombo were guys who made up the NBA all defense first and second team. No he wasnt serious they did but he implied that they had a major impact in AI playing defense. He claimed they were BEHIND AI. He's wrong. You're wrong.

He simply carelessly threw out names without doing his homework, research about who was really responsible and were the critical pieces of that Sixers defense in 00-01.

Like i said you dont even know what is being argued. Just like you didnt the previous time you ran your mouth kid. :no:



Making stupid statements and then forgetting what you were talking about? Yes, please bring your delicious KO pie my way. Debating with you is like playing with a kitten. :)

No making up what someone said then arguing against it? Classic.

You gotta feel like an ass right now. I'll copy and paste his argument and watch you weasel your way out of it. Another poster actually READ the exchange (unlike you) and agreed I made better points vs tastycake.

Stop sniffing glue kid. Killing brain cells.

Someone pick this kid up off the floor. He really went to bed alright. At the hands of GOBB. :roll:

[GOBB]

Me, learn about the game:roll: If you think Iverson was a good defender because he put up steals numbers, then you need to get your ass off the short bus and come to the big boy table if your gonna post with the big boys. This is the line-up Ivo had behind him: Dikembe Mutumbo, Aaron Mckie, Erik Snow, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Matt Geiger, Raja Bell :roll:

That's like a first and second all defensive team behind him, so yeah, he was able to gamble and put up some steals numbers. :lol I would argue that Nash is probably as good of a defender, if not better than Ivo. Nash is willing to mix it up, takes charges, etc...The problem is behind him, Nash has never had anybody to protect the rim. Ivo is a defensive liablility, anybody who actually watches basketball understands this. So you need to STFU.

Reading is simple. :violin:

[spree43]

I was talking about how he didn't win with all the talent he had around, not his MVPs. And why didn't Kidd deserve the MVP that year ? He changed the culture of that team, bla bla bla, like Nash did in Phoenix. And he played defense.



:roll: Kidd's teams overachieved, it's Nash who always underachieved, at least in Phoenix.



1. The 2nd team center was Amare, not Shaq.

2. Lamar Odom a franchise player ? :roll:

3. Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom did not make an All-NBA team. That's all I was listing.



LeBron played with 4 all stars ? That's new. No other Cav made the All-Star in '07, and certainly not 3 of them.



D'Antoni did, not Steve Nash. See : Duhon, Chris.

Are you serious, your using a knicks team that didn't make the playoffs out east and their point guard who averaged 11 points 7 assists playing 37 minutes a game, (who averaged 9 and 5 in 29 minuted on the bulls in 06) as an example of the effectiveness of D

[Mikaiel]

[QUOTE=spree43]Are you serious, your using a knicks team that didn't make the playoffs out east and their point guard who averaged 11 points 7 assists playing 37 minutes a game, (who averaged 9 and 5 in 29 minuted on the bulls in 06) as an example of the effectiveness of D

[indiefan23]

Quote:
Originally Posted by spree43
Steve Nashs two seasons were the most clear cut examples of a player being valuable to his team (in the only statistic that matters, winning) on the last decade

Fixed


Now its fixed.

[indiefan23]

He's wrong. I suggest you READ his argument. Just like you were WRONG that someone actually said Nash was as good if not a better defender than AI. And most of the names he listed were injured and/or had no effect on AI's defensive liabilities which werent GREAT in 01. He couldnt guard teams opposing SGs which was Eric Snow's job. Outside of that where was he a liability? By all means scratch your ass and pull some shyt out of it.

Someone said an argument could be made. It could. He said Mutombo and his good defensive team made up for Iverson's defensive liabilities. He did. I'm going to say that you trying to make this about a guy on the internet instead of Iverson on the court shows how weak what you're saying really is.


Wrong (seems to be your theme).

I said Raja Bell spent his butt on the pine in AI MVP season. Again take time to READ tastycakes ARGUMENT dipshyt. Who the f*ck cares about 06 when Raja Bell wasnt in Philadelphia? What are you even arguing? :oldlol:

Because he was in phoenix on the other side of this argument ding ass. So hey, yea, Raja Bell is useless like you were saying and Nash had even less help. Thanks for agreeing!






You stated that Mutombo wasn't there at all for the regular season. Then implied that it was Matt Geiger protecting the rim.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Damn your reading and comprehension is TERRIBLE. What are you 10? Seriously

I said Mutombo wasnt around for AI for 71gms. Meaning he only played with AI about 18gms in his MVP season during the regular season. So why would anyone LIST Mutombo and not Theo Ratliff who was there for 50gms of AI's 71gms? Who had more of an impact protecting the rim, the interior? How could anyone fail to mention him but list Mutombo as the reson why AI was playing good defense that MVP season?

I can read fine. He's remembering Mutombo from the playoffs obviously. Mutombo got there late but his point stands. If you understood ball as much as your ego claims you do you would have corrected him and stated that towards the end of the season the defense for Iverson got even stronger instead of pretending you were right like a juvenile.

BTW, if I supposedly can't read because I disagree with you, maybe you should take some grade 1 math. There are not 89 games in an NBA season d!ckwad.


Then to list Matt Geiger when he was injured most of the season is even more laughable. He isnt a shot blocker. He doesnt alter shots. And he only played in 30 or some games.

He argued Matt Geiger, Raja Bell, Mutombo were guys who made up the NBA all defense first and second team. No he wasnt serious they did but he implied that they had a major impact in AI playing defense. He claimed they were BEHIND AI. He's wrong. You're wrong.

He simply carelessly threw out names without doing his homework, research about who was really responsible and were the critical pieces of that Sixers defense in 00-01.

Like i said you dont even know what is being argued. Just like you didnt the previous time you ran your mouth kid. :no:

No making up what someone said then arguing against it? Classic.

He said Iverson was on a really good defensive team that covered his liabilities and listed a bunch of great to good defensive players on that team and listed some off the top of his head. not that Mutombo played there for a whole season and Ratlif didn't. Its not a thesis its a message forum and people can't be 'wrong' about things they never stated.


You gotta feel like an ass right now. I'll copy and paste his argument and watch you weasel your way out of it. Another poster actually READ the exchange (unlike you) and agreed I made better points vs tastycake.

Stop sniffing glue kid. Killing brain cells.

Someone pick this kid up off the floor. He really went to bed alright. At the hands of GOBB. :roll:

How small is the ***** at the hands of GOBB really... grow up.

[indiefan23]

I was talking about how he didn't win with all the talent he had around, not his MVPs. And why didn't Kidd deserve the MVP that year ? He changed the culture of that team, bla bla bla, like Nash did in Phoenix. And he played defense.

He changed the culture of the team but his team was in one of the weakest conferences in history. They got 52 wins. Tim Duncan 58 in one of the toughest conferences in history. In Kidd's division the Magic staring Darrel Armstrong at point and non-prime-t-mac even got 44 wins. Kidd didn't make New Jersey the best team in the league from one of the worst winning 62 games in the Westren conference or win 2 more games then that without Kenyon Martin and Richard Jefferson again in a much tougher conference.


:roll: Kidd's teams overachieved, it's Nash who always underachieved, at least in Phoenix.



1. The 2nd team center was Amare, not Shaq.

Point taken, but the fact that Shaq's corpse had to be dragged around by Amare negates that point. The trade destroyed the team's chemistry and Nash had nothing to do with that.


2. Lamar Odom a franchise player ? :roll:

He was the face of the Clippers for years.


3. Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom did not make an All-NBA team. That's all I was listing.

You said they were 'no one' and you're full of crap. Pau is one of the best centers in the league and Odom one of the most versatile. Together they are the biggest match up nightmare that exists. Pau is also the center best suited for the triangle hands down probably since Dream.


LeBron played with 4 all stars ? That's new. No other Cav made the All-Star in '07, and certainly not 3 of them.

Chauncy Billups did.


D'Antoni did, not Steve Nash. See : Duhon, Chris.

You're claiming that because Chris Duhon put up 20 dimes in a gave vs the fastest, worst defending team in the league (golden state) who was without Monta Ellis that Chris Duhon is on Steve Nash's level? Chris Duhon can't put up anything that resembles Michael Jordan. Even Lebron has only had games that are Jordanesque. (although hopefully that changes soon).

I know by now that you're a troll and its a shame. I thought you were kind of interesting in that other thread. But please, just stop with the garbage. Chris Duhon. He would laugh in your face if you told him he was on Nash's level.

[indiefan23]

Ok, I said I'd pwn this too, so here goes. I'm kind of getting sick of it though on the old ISH.


Hmm, how original, the "Nash makes his teammates better" argument. Tell me, how much better did he make those teammates on the defensive end when his man blew by him at will ? How good of a leader is he if you can't even count on him on critical situations ? What kind of MVP can get abused by scrub PGs every single night ? He and Magic are the only back-to-back MVPs who have never been on an All-NBA Defensive team, and Magic was never the liability Nash was/is. Nash is just horrible on the defensive end, just horrible. And for an MVP ? He's probably the worst defender to ever win an MVP, even worse than Dirk. If he had won the MVOP, Most Valuable Offensive Player, I'd have nothing to say about it, but defense is half the game, even more, so sorry, Nash didn't deserve his MVPs.

Winning is the whole game. Being an on ball defender is not half the game. Nash's team D is fine and he always is like top 1 or 2 players in drawn charges. PHX's problems start and end with Amare who like Shaq uses his talent only to score. Defenses aren't anchored by points.

The defense argument about the Suns is garbage anyway. In 06/07 they allowed only 2.2 more points/100 possessions then Detroit AFTER trading their best interior defender, Kurt Thomas, for scraps and cash. If PHX played in the east and the pistons in the west those years they would have made the finals every year the team was together. Defense done. Next.


And FYI, when Nash won his 1st MVP, I didn't think it was primarly because of Amare or JJ. It was because of D'Antoni. I hate his style of coaching, and when I say hate, I really f*cking hate it. I can't watch one of his team play without throwing up. He's almost as bad as Don Nelson, maybe even worse. But you can't argue that the Suns had the best offense in the league. All right Nash had a lot to do with that, but it wasn't Nash who decided they should push the ball at every opportunity. It wasn't Nash who decided they would play small ball. It wasn't Nash who came up with the 7 seconds or less offense (God I just threw up :ohwell:).

No, it was Nash who's unique skills could make it all possible by building an all time team around him. D'Antoni was their coach but so is Larry Brown and Poppavich. The players make it happen. So now your argument is that Steve Nash shouldn't get credit or MVPs because...... he had a coach! Yes, everyone has a coach. D'Antoni done. Next.


Just look what he's done in New York. He makes Chris f*cking Duhon look like an All-Star on some nights. Some people even think David Lee should have gone to the All-Star Game this year (I just threw up again ...).

You just said Chris Duhon and all star in the same sentence. Done. Next.


Sports media was saturated with reasons Nash's MVP was a joke ? Really ? Everyone was sucking his dick when he won. All you heard back then "What an unselfish player, he's incredible, look what he's done with that team bla bla bla".

Uh huh, followed by the obligatory "how can he be the MVP when he's not even the best player on his team?" People are stupid. Amare was the best 'finisher' on his team. It was obvious Amare was not the best 'basketball player' on his team the same way it was obvious Stockton was WAY better then Malone. Either way, you heard this constantly. Then this Kobe got robbed thing started and by the start of next season all levels of media were reporting that Nash 1. didn't deserve to win MVP and 2. the fluke Suns were going to bomb. Find me one link to something saying they had any shot at 54 games and 1 game of the finals. Just 1. You can't. Done. Next.


And I've never said Nash was a bad player, obviously he was the best offensive PG in the league.

What, exactly, does the term 'garbage player' mean to you? You seem to think that Nash leaving any team makes them better which sounds pretty freaking bad to me. Its okay, you don't have to backtrack now. You lied then or you lied just now. Either way you lied and I get to say... Done. Next.


So I'm not surprised he had an awesome series against Dallas. That's what great offensive players do. Sometimes, they just explode. But can they win ? That's another question. I really believe you can't win anything if your star only plays one half of the game, no matter how awesome he is at what he does. And one playoff series doesn't mean anything. Amare averaged something like 38 points against the Spurs in the playoffs one year, I guess he was the MVP then ? BTW, how many MVPs lost a series when one of their teammates averaged more than 35 points ? Hmm ...

How is Amare scoring lots of points mean Nash played poorly? And how is it you blame the defensive problems on the position least likely to affect a team's D? They lost because Duncan outplayed Amare in every way and the Spurs frankly just had the better and way more experienced team. When the rest of your rotation averages 23 years of age and its the first year together you're not supposed to be in contention for the finals. You're not supposed to make the playoffs or be out in the first round. Done. Next.


And I don't care his owner is cheap, the guy played with a disguting amount of talent on his team. He played with Amare, Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, Shaq, Eddie House, Tim Thomas, Leandro Barbosa, Boris Diaw, Grant Hill, Quentin Richardson, maybe a few others, and he still couldn't win. You mean he needed a few more guys to win ?

I don't have to point out the stupidity of claiming a 'super team' built over 4 years played with Steve Nash. And talent is meaningless if it's not assembled properly. NYC had moe talent then anyone and still had a losing record. Sarver made brutal move after brutal move and every single one hurt their chances. Thats Sarver, not Nash, who kept the team improving no matter what scrubs he sent to the locker room. You just used the words Tim Thomas in a sentence with talent. Done. Next.


Wasn't it enough ? Give LeBron, Kobe, Jason Kidd or AI the same talent and they'll get you a title, without any doubt. There's a 90% chance either Kobe or LeBron wins a title this year, and they don't have as much talent on their teams right now. Jason Kidd went twice to the Finals, took the Spurs to 6 games with who ? Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, Kerry Kittles, Jason Collins, Mutombo, Lucious Harris ? AI went to the Finals and won a game against the mighty Lakers when his second leading scorer in the playoffs was Aaron McKie. Aaron McKie ... You really think he couldn't get a title with Amare, Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson ? Or Amare, Shawn Marion and Barbosa ?

Nope. He got to the finals through the east when it was one of the weakest conferences in history. Iverson too. Lebron too. Kobe was on a team with 4 future hall of famers, the very best players of their generation at each position and he found a way to destory that team's chemistry and lose 4-1 in a series that should have been a sweep it was so not close. The notion that, hahahah, Kobe god damned Bryant would be able to keep his, marion's, and Amare's ego's in check to be successful is so incredibly laughable. Kobe on that team loses in the first round after scraping into the playoffs.

Lebron of today, he might be able to do it, but he's Lebron and remains ceilingless. So who's to say... he might be able to beat the Spurs that year. But SA had the very best team in basketball Nash's first year in PHX so I'm not sure who was going to beat them, especially with a team togehter for the first year and 3 starters under 23 years of age. Its foolishness. Done.

And done. Nash was amazing. You fail.

[GOBB]

Someone said an argument could be made. It could.

You initialled said no one said an argument could be made. Now after you were WRONG (your theme) you're saying an argument could be made.

Go on and make it. Try it. Lets see you fail again. :oldlol:

Make an argument that shows Nash is as good if not BETTER than AI. You nor the other idiot never attemtped it. There is a reason why.


He said Mutombo and his good defensive team made up for Iverson's defensive liabilities. He did. I'm going to say that you trying to make this about a guy on the internet instead of Iverson on the court shows how weak what you're saying really is.

Yet Mutombo didnt play more than 20gms with AI that MVP season during the reg season. :oldlol: I dont know why Mutombo is used when he wasnt impacing AI's defense during his MVP season for the most part. AI played in 71gms. Mutombo played with AI in 18 of those 71. You do the math genius.

You'll reply Mutombo this, Mutombo that. When AI defense that year didnt rest on Mutombos defense. He played 26gms with the Sixers, 18 with AI. 82gms in a season. AI played in 71. What makes you think AI liabilities were covered up by Mutombo when he hardly play with the guy?

At this time stupid is sinking in. Which is all I pointed out to the other kid. That you want to make an argument but you're tossing "names" out wrecklessly and failing to support your argument. Thats all I did, was expose the weakness. And here you are continuing/picking up where the other retard left off. Awesome. I love embarrassing posters here.


Because he was in phoenix on the other side of this argument ding ass. So hey, yea, Raja Bell is useless like you were saying and Nash had even less help. Thanks for agreeing!

What other argument? Raja Bell in 06 isnt relevant. Raja Bell with AI is. How dense are you? Who said Raja Bell was useless? How can you use Raja Bell in an argument as him being a "helper" in AI's defensive liabilities when Raja Bell was picked up late April, played in only 5gms, 3 of which AI didnt play. So how can you use Raja Bell? He didnt part his ass from the bench during AI's MVP season.

Not hard. Raja Bell in Phx has zero relevance. You want to use Raja Bell helping Steve Nash? Fine, include that in your argument that shows Nash is as good if not a better defender. Wait neither of you kids did.

Damn my hands are going numb pounding on your skull.


I can read fine. He's remembering Mutombo from the playoffs obviously. Mutombo got there late but his point stands. If you understood ball as much as your ego claims you do you would have corrected him and stated that towards the end of the season the defense for Iverson got even stronger instead of pretending you were right like a juvenile.

I corrected him and you. That was the entire breakdown of my post. To show how AI MVP was given based on regular season not playoffs. A didnt win MVP because of his postseason performance. The voters vote is in by seasons end. Its not announced until playoffs which gives a casual fan the impression playoffs factor. No, all the awards are finalized. They are given out during the postseason. It makes a ton of sense.

AI was not a defensive liability either. Eric Snow guarded his SGs, so if you want to say that was a defensive liability? So be it. Guy is 6'0 165lbs vs guys twice his size. *shrugs*


BTW, if I supposedly can't read because I disagree with you, maybe you should take some grade 1 math. There are not 89 games in an NBA season d!ckwad.

Where did you get 89? From your ass? The source where most ur argument stems. Go figure! :roll:

AI played in 71gms as a Sixer
Mutombo played in 26gms as a Sixer
Ratliff played in 50gms as a Sixer

Out of the 26gms Mutombo played in as a Sixer 18gms were with AI.

Whats so hard to compute? Damn you're struggling.


He said Iverson was on a really good defensive team that covered his liabilities and listed a bunch of great to good defensive players on that team and listed some off the top of his head. not that Mutombo played there for a whole season and Ratlif didn't. Its not a thesis its a message forum and people can't be 'wrong' about things they never stated.

What liabilities? Seems like a popular word amongst you two

AI played on a good defensive team. But to act like the names he listed were the reason for AI getting steals is silly. AI played good defense that year from getting steals being a pest in the passing lanes, to disrupting passes, to good on ball defense and help defense (rotating). You two kids are wrong.

I suggest you find games from that season and evaluate appropriately. Otherwise you are just babbling.



How small is the ***** at the hands of GOBB really... grow up.

You jumped in the lions den and got torn up. Next time mind your manners.

[tastystaci]

Gobb, you're f*ckin' retarded.

Your claim: You won the argument that A.I. had a good defense backing him up by saying that Theo Ratliff, who led the league in blocks, played more regular season games than Mutumbo? STFU. You made my argument for me. I named the playoff roster, again, because that's what people use to justify his MVP, his FINALS RUN. So by me not naming the #1 shot blocker, Theo Ratliff, you owned me? :wtf: This is mentally challenged at best. Keep slurping your own c*ck, I promise nobody else will. :roll:

[indiefan23]

You initialled said no one said an argument could be made. Now after you were WRONG (your theme) you're saying an argument could be made.

Go on and make it. Try it. Lets see you fail again. :oldlol:

Make an argument that shows Nash is as good if not BETTER than AI. You nor the other idiot never attemtped it. There is a reason why.



Yet Mutombo didnt play more than 20gms with AI that MVP season during the reg season. :oldlol: I dont know why Mutombo is used when he wasnt impacing AI's defense during his MVP season for the most part. AI played in 71gms. Mutombo played with AI in 18 of those 71. You do the math genius.

You'll reply Mutombo this, Mutombo that. When AI defense that year didnt rest on Mutombos defense. He played 26gms with the Sixers, 18 with AI. 82gms in a season. AI played in 71. What makes you think AI liabilities were covered up by Mutombo when he hardly play with the guy?

At this time stupid is sinking in. Which is all I pointed out to the other kid. That you want to make an argument but you're tossing "names" out wrecklessly and failing to support your argument. Thats all I did, was expose the weakness. And here you are continuing/picking up where the other retard left off. Awesome. I love embarrassing posters here.



What other argument? Raja Bell in 06 isnt relevant. Raja Bell with AI is. How dense are you? Who said Raja Bell was useless? How can you use Raja Bell in an argument as him being a "helper" in AI's defensive liabilities when Raja Bell was picked up late April, played in only 5gms, 3 of which AI didnt play. So how can you use Raja Bell? He didnt part his ass from the bench during AI's MVP season.

Not hard. Raja Bell in Phx has zero relevance. You want to use Raja Bell helping Steve Nash? Fine, include that in your argument that shows Nash is as good if not a better defender. Wait neither of you kids did.

Damn my hands are going numb pounding on your skull.



I corrected him and you. That was the entire breakdown of my post. To show how AI MVP was given based on regular season not playoffs. A didnt win MVP because of his postseason performance. The voters vote is in by seasons end. Its not announced until playoffs which gives a casual fan the impression playoffs factor. No, all the awards are finalized. They are given out during the postseason. It makes a ton of sense.

AI was not a defensive liability either. Eric Snow guarded his SGs, so if you want to say that was a defensive liability? So be it. Guy is 6'0 165lbs vs guys twice his size. *shrugs*



Where did you get 89? From your ass? The source where most ur argument stems. Go figure! :roll:

AI played in 71gms as a Sixer
Mutombo played in 26gms as a Sixer
Ratliff played in 50gms as a Sixer

Out of the 26gms Mutombo played in as a Sixer 18gms were with AI.

Whats so hard to compute? Damn you're struggling.



What liabilities? Seems like a popular word amongst you two

AI played on a good defensive team. But to act like the names he listed were the reason for AI getting steals is silly. AI played good defense that year from getting steals being a pest in the passing lanes, to disrupting passes, to good on ball defense and help defense (rotating). You two kids are wrong.

I suggest you find games from that season and evaluate appropriately. Otherwise you are just babbling.




You jumped in the lions den and got torn up. Next time mind your manners.

Menh, you're a child and talk to hear yourself. I'll waste my time on people who aren't trying to be cool on an internet forum.

[GOBB]

Menh, you're a child and talk to hear yourself. I'll waste my time on people who aren't trying to be cool on an internet forum.

Exactly. Tuck your tail and walk away you mutt.


Gobb, you're f*ckin' retarded.

No that would be you thinking the MVP is given based on playoff performance.

[indiefan23]

Gobb, you're f*ckin' retarded.

Your claim: You won the argument that A.I. had a good defense backing him up by saying that Theo Ratliff, who led the league in blocks, played more regular season games than Mutumbo? STFU. You made my argument for me. I named the playoff roster, again, because that's what people use to justify his MVP, his FINALS RUN. So by me not naming the #1 shot blocker, Theo Ratliff, you owned me? :wtf: This is mentally challenged at best. Keep slurping your own c*ck, I promise nobody else will. :roll:

I know, Gobb is a little immature and totally all about himself. If you left something out and including it makes you wrong, fair enough. But you left something out that made you more right. This dude believes that if he finds little details with google to focus on and talks really loud it means he's right. I bet he can only type with one hand cuz he's *********ing his ego with the other. ;)

[indiefan23]

Exactly. Tuck your tail and walk away you mutt.



No that would be you thinking the MVP is given based on playoff performance.

Uh, you're the one who brought up the playoffs and think theres 89 games in the regular season.




Right thats why the Sixers played the Lakers in the NBA Finals tougher than any mighty Western Conference team did in the playoffs?

You've got to be the most insecure person I've seen on ISH so far. Its comedic.

[GOBB]

I know, Gobb is a little immature and totally all about himself. If you left something out and including it makes you wrong, fair enough. But you left something out that made you more right. This dude believes that if he finds little details with google to focus on and talks really loud it means he's right. I bet he can only type with one hand cuz he's *********ing his ego with the other. ;)

His entire post made no sense. He randomly threw out names then claimed they were the reason AI played good defense. By being "behind" him. Some of the names he listed like Geiger and Raja Bell is laughable.

The key defensive guys were Ratliff, Lynch, Hill. Regular season. You wanna talk playoffs? Why? MVP is given to the player during the 2nd round. So you want to sit there and analyze the first round to prove your point? Really? Then give an accurate playoff roster. Oh wait he didnt. But I'm being petty? Raja Bell prescence wasnt introduced until the NBA Finals. Yet somehow his defensive ability is relevant in his argument? Again no.

I never said AI didnt benefit from being on a good defensive team. Every player does. But do not imply he was only good defensively because of who he played with. He was dependant on them. AI was a good defender coming out of college. Yet ever since this word "liability" was introduced to fans. They throw it out wrecklessly.

Misinformed, uneducated fans spewing nonsense because their arguments are weak. Its ok. And yet and still neither you nor tastycake will even attempt to show me how Steve Nash was as good if not better than AI. You 2 kids keep ducking that one.

How is AI a defensive liability in his MVP season and Chris Paul has never been? Another question I'd love to hear. And once again Eric Snow handled the scoring guards Sixers faced. So if your only argument is he was a defensive liability because AI couldnt guard Tmac, Kobe? Then find a better one. Or maybe you cant.


tastycake randomly tosses around crap. and indiefan randomly quotes and comments on stuff but takes it in a different direction. Like mentioning Raja Bell in 2006. Relevance? We are discussing Raja Bell role with AI in his MVP season. And you introduced 06 Raja Bell and stubbornly act as if it is relevant. I guess admitting you were wrong, misread is a tough pull to swallow? Seems so.


Sidenote: I even acknowledge with my first reply to tastycake that he was right about 1 thing that having a shot blocker, intimidator allowed him to play more agressive on the perimeter. I never denied it. Just corrected him on numerous errors made in his post along with some faulty logic. If thats a sin then stone me to death. And he never once attempted to defend his comment that YOU said was never made. Yup, Steve Nash being as good if not better defensively than AI.

[GOBB]

Uh, you're the one who brought up the playoffs and think theres 89 games in the regular season.

Find me the quotes that i...

1. brought up playoffs
2. said there were 89gms in a season

Lets see it.


You've got to be the most insecure person I've seen on ISH so far. Its comedic.

Coming from someone who constantly misquotes someone then argues on it? :oldlol:


GOBB "Today is awesome"
indiefan "Today is bad?"
GOBB "No its awesome. Not bad idiot"
indiefan "You brought up what today was. And also said it was bad."

:applause:

[Mikaiel]

He changed the culture of the team but his team was in one of the weakest conferences in history.

So what ? Before he got there, they were a horrible team in one of the weakest conferences in history. That's how horrible they were.


then that without Kenyon Martin and Richard Jefferson again in a much tougher conference.

WTF ? In what kind of f*cked up world do you live in if Kenyon Martin and Richard Jefferson are better than Amare, Marion or Joe Johnson ?


He was the face of the Clippers for years.

:roll: Ricky Davis was the face of the Cavs once, does that mean he was a franchise player ?


You said they were 'no one' and you're full of crap. Pau is one of the best centers in the league and Odom one of the most versatile. Together they are the biggest match up nightmare that exists. Pau is also the center best suited for the triangle hands down probably since Dream.

But he did not make an All-NBA team, or even the All-Star Game.


You're claiming that because Chris Duhon put up 20 dimes in a gave vs the fastest, worst defending team in the league (golden state) who was without Monta Ellis that Chris Duhon is on Steve Nash's level?

No, of course not. I'm only saying D'Antoni can make players look better than they actually are.

[Toizumi]

he GOBB. I repped you for trying to talk some sense into some of these guys :applause:

[tastystaci]

I was able to find Gobb's yearbook picture. It explains a lot to say the least.

http://i40.tinypic.com/t8lo40.jpg

[Mikaiel]

PHX's problems start and end with Amare who like Shaq uses his talent only to score.

Hmm. I don't know if it's hilarious or sad you don't realize it's the exact same damn thing with Nash.


The defense argument about the Suns is garbage anyway. In 06/07 they allowed only 2.2 more points/100 possessions then Detroit AFTER trading their best interior defender, Kurt Thomas, for scraps and cash. If PHX played in the east and the pistons in the west those years they would have made the finals every year the team was together. Defense done. Next.

I don't care about numbers. The only reason those numbers are what they are is because they faced undisciplined teams that didn't take care of every possession like they should have, and got caught up in the running game, so they took bad shots. Their D never stopped somebody. Other teams stopped themselves. But in the playoffs, when teams are disciplined enough to recognize they shouldn't run like crazy and should take advantage of mismatches and poor defense, the Suns couldn't do anything. I just don't see they could have gotten past the Pistons or the Cavs. Both had the defense to contain them and a half-court game to make them pay for playing small ball. And Billups would have killed Nash.



What, exactly, does the term 'garbage player' mean to you?

I've never said he was a garbage player. Just that he played garbage basketball. There's a difference. He doesn't play defense and tries to run on every single possession. That's what garbage basketball is about.


How is Amare scoring lots of points mean Nash played poorly?

You can't read can you ? Where did I say he played bad in that series ?


They lost because Duncan outplayed Amare in every way

Yeah sure, Amare averaged 38 points for the series, but he got outplayed by Duncan. That makes sense.

[tastystaci]

he GOBB. I repped you for trying to talk some sense into some of these guys :applause:

Yeah he did.:roll: He proved me wrong. I said Ivo had a great defense behind him by saying Mutumbo played behind him, he proceeded to put me in my place by pointing out that Theo Ratliff, the #1 shotblocker in the league, played more regular season games that Mount Mutumbo. Good job Gobb. I would repp you also, but I think your a complete tool.

[indiefan23]

His entire post made no sense. He randomly threw out names then claimed they were the reason AI played good defense. By being "behind" him. Some of the names he listed like Geiger and Raja Bell is laughable.

The key defensive guys were Ratliff, Lynch, Hill. Regular season. You wanna talk playoffs? Why? MVP is given to the player during the 2nd round. So you want to sit there and analyze the first round to prove your point? Really? Then give an accurate playoff roster. Oh wait he didnt. But I'm being petty? Raja Bell prescence wasnt introduced until the NBA Finals. Yet somehow his defensive ability is relevant in his argument? Again no.

I never said AI didnt benefit from being on a good defensive team. Every player does. But do not imply he was only good defensively because of who he played with. He was dependant on them. AI was a good defender coming out of college. Yet ever since this word "liability" was introduced to fans. They throw it out wrecklessly.

Misinformed, uneducated fans spewing nonsense because their arguments are weak. Its ok. And yet and still neither you nor tastycake will even attempt to show me how Steve Nash was as good if not better than AI. You 2 kids keep ducking that one.

How is AI a defensive liability in his MVP season and Chris Paul has never been? Another question I'd love to hear. And once again Eric Snow handled the scoring guards Sixers faced. So if your only argument is he was a defensive liability because AI couldnt guard Tmac, Kobe? Then find a better one. Or maybe you cant.


tastycake randomly tosses around crap. and indiefan randomly quotes and comments on stuff but takes it in a different direction. Like mentioning Raja Bell in 2006. Relevance? We are discussing Raja Bell role with AI in his MVP season. And you introduced 06 Raja Bell and stubbornly act as if it is relevant. I guess admitting you were wrong, misread is a tough pull to swallow? Seems so.


Sidenote: I even acknowledge with my first reply to tastycake that he was right about 1 thing that having a shot blocker, intimidator allowed him to play more agressive on the perimeter. I never denied it. Just corrected him on numerous errors made in his post along with some faulty logic. If thats a sin then stone me to death. And he never once attempted to defend his comment that YOU said was never made. Yup, Steve Nash being as good if not better defensively than AI.

What he said made total sense to me. I already gave you an argument about Nash so go look for it yourself. He said an argument could be made, not that it was fact like you said and thats the point. Its not even that you're wrong, which you are, its that you're an insecure d!ck and talking to you isn't interesting. Its like talking to Bill O'Reilly. You should be ashamed.

[indiefan23]

Find me the quotes that i...

1. brought up playoffs
2. said there were 89gms in a season


Its not difficult. Just read what you said in those little quote boxes above where I said you said it.


I said Mutombo wasnt around for AI for 71gms. Meaning he only played with AI about 18gms in his MVP season during the regular season.

Right thats why the Sixers played the Lakers in the NBA Finals tougher than any mighty Western Conference team did in the playoffs?

It doesn't matter.

[GOBB]

Where did you get 89gms from? lol Damn shame.

It clearly stated Mutombo played with Allen Iverson in 18 of his 71gms in the regular season. Moron.

Me talkin about Sixers playing Lakers tougher than any Western Conference team was in response to the "East was weak. West was dominate" nonsense to discredit AI's road to the NBA Finals being cake.

[Big#50]

Listen, I respect Kidd, but those Nets teams were garbage, no where near Finals caliber teams. They played in the disgustingly weak East. Nash's Suns would smash Kidd's Nets.

And everyone brings up Nash never making a Finals. Did nobody watch the f*ckin '07 WCF??? Tim Donoghy, a convicted game fixer officiated game 3. A game Amare played 21 minutes because of bogus foul after bogus foul. A series where Amare and Diow were suspended...FOR STEPPING ON THE COURT! The same thing Tim Duncan and Bruce Bowen did in the first qt...with no penalty. We have Rondo throwing dude's into scorer's tables, having flagrant 2's downgraded by Joey f*ckin Crawford, with no suspensions. No, Nash is not good enough to beat the Spurs and David Stern and Stu Jackson and Tim Donoghy. So please just STFU with this Nash never making a Finals. You guys are making me dumber just reading this diarrhea.
Amare was called for legit fouls. The Duncan/Bowen thing was cleared by the league because there was no altercation. The Spurs were cheated in the 06 series vs The Mavs, but you don't see Spurs' fans crying. Get the hell over it. Nash didn't deserve an MVP. White media loved him even though he doesn't play D.

[indiefan23]

So what ? Before he got there, they were a horrible team in one of the weakest conferences in history. That's how horrible they were.

Man, the team Kidd took over finished a year ravaged by injuries not it's own ineptitude.


WTF ? In what kind of f*cked up world do you live in if Kenyon Martin and Richard Jefferson are better than Amare, Marion or Joe Johnson ?

They're not and that's my point. But after losing both those players Nash won 2 more games then Kidd in a conference that was ridiculously tougher. If Kidd loses two lesser players he probably does not make the playoffs.


:roll: Ricky Davis was the face of the Cavs once, does that mean he was a franchise player ?

But he did not make an All-NBA team, or even the All-Star Game.

Odom is twice the player Ricky Davis is and Davis was NEVER the face of the Cavs. They never said 'lets build a team around Ricky Freaking Davis' I've never heard anything so ridiculous. Which season are you refering to? The one where they let him start in 8 games cuz starters were hurt? The 17-65 tank season they had to win Bron Bron when it was obvious if they didn't win the lottery they were building around Boozer (why he left) or the one they dumped him cuz they had their franchise player?

The only reason the Clippers let Odom go was because they robbed Elton Brand from Chicago and had a better cornerstone. I mean, Odom was the featured piece in a deal for Shaq still in his prime. You're not even trying to make balanced comparisons.


No, of course not. I'm only saying D'Antoni can make players look better than they actually are.

Yea, and so can Greg Poppavich, Phil Jackson and any other good coach. A coach does not make you good or look good, he works on the little things to improve the team. People on good teams generally look better because they win in systems built to maximize their talents. Nash playing at an elite level in a system built around him is a credit to him not a knock the exact same way as Ben Wallace, Michael Jordan or Tim Duncan playing well in the systems built around them. Chris Duhon got an extra assist or two but was in no way playing at an elite level or anything close to Nash. At all. Or even close.

I mean, it should be obvious that you're reaching when you write these things. Why do you keep posting stuff that's grasping at straws?

[indiefan23]

Amare was called for legit fouls. The Duncan/Bowen thing was cleared by the league because there was no altercation. The Spurs were cheated in the 06 series vs The Mavs, but you don't see Spurs' fans crying. Get the hell over it. Nash didn't deserve an MVP. White media loved him even though he doesn't play D.

The Spurs had one questionable call to lose. Maybe if they had an answer for Dirk crucifying them for over 50 points they would have won huh? Dallas was the better that team that series.

The Suns lost their best scorer for an entire game. You're trying to say that's the same thing as one call? When Bruce Bowen was kicking people in games and not getting suspended? BS. The league rules on things to extend popular series to 7 games to inflate their ratings. The Suns were the better team and thats why the Spurs got the league assist. That's not even counting that they needed Nash on the bench with a bloody nose to win another game. Its so weak.

[indiefan23]

Where did you get 89gms from? lol Damn shame.

It clearly stated Mutombo played with Allen Iverson in 18 of his 71gms in the regular season. Moron.

Me talkin about Sixers playing Lakers tougher than any Western Conference team was in response to the "East was weak. West was dominate" nonsense to discredit AI's road to the NBA Finals being cake.

I don't see anything clear there. Learn to speak. I love how you think one game that Philly won vs LA because LA plainly didn't take them seriously means the east path was just as hard. LA went through SA and Sacramento. Dear lord.

[spree43]

Prime Allen Iverson >>> Prime Nash defensively
Prime Allen Iverson > Prime Nash offensively

But

Nash definately deserved the MVP in 2006, maybe not in 2005
But it was undertandable that he was awarded it because he changed the suns from a 29-53 team, into a 29-4 team (62-20 overall I think)
But if they knew he was going to be more deservant the year after I don't think he would have got it, but nobody stood up the next year and he was more valuable than ever

Kobe averaged 35 a game, but his team barely made the playoffs, other than that there were no good candidates

[Big#50]

The Spurs had one questionable call to lose. Maybe if they had an answer for Dirk crucifying them for over 50 points they would have won huh? Dallas was the better that team that series.

The Suns lost their best scorer for an entire game. You're trying to say that's the same thing as one call? When Bruce Bowen was kicking people in games and not getting suspended? BS. The league rules on things to extend popular series to 7 games to inflate their ratings. The Suns were the better team and thats why the Spurs got the league assist. That's not even counting that they needed Nash on the bench with a bloody nose to win another game. Its so weak.
Better team only because they won by a hair? The Mavs shot like 45 ft's in a game. Dirk never scored 50. He did go to the line like 14 times agame in that series. The Suns lost 3 other games with their full line up. Why don't you mention that? Spurs own the Suns, face it.

[indiefan23]

Better team only because they won by a hair? The Mavs shot like 45 ft's in a game. Dirk never scored 50. He did go to the line like 14 times agame in that series. The Suns lost 3 other games with their full line up. Why don't you mention that? Spurs own the Suns, face it.

Heh, did no one notice that as the Spurs got older they got more physicial to make up for the time their defense got broken? As if the spurs are not a team that fouls a lot to slow down a game. Come on.

[Mikaiel]

Heh, did no one notice that as the Spurs got older they got more physicial to make up for the time their defense got broken? As if the spurs are not a team that fouls a lot to slow down a game. Come on.

Once again, you show your poor basketball knowledge.

Personal fouls (in reverse order):

04-05 season : 5th
04-05 playoffs : 4th

05-06 season : 5th
05-06 playoffs : 6th

06-07 season : 1st
06-07 playoffs : 4th

07-08 season : 1st
07-08 playoffs : 8th

08-09 season : 2nd
08-09 playoffs : 6th

[Mikaiel]

Davis was NEVER the face of the Cavs.

Yeah sure, he was never a 20+ scorer for the Cavs. He never made spectacular plays that regularly got him in the daily top 10. No one talked about him, especially when he tried to get a triple double. If Davis was not the face of this franchise, who the hell was ? Z ? Darius Miles ? Dajuan Wagner ? Diop ?


I've never heard anything so ridiculous.

Maybe I can help you with that.

Camby was more athletic than Wilt.
Big Baby Davis is as skilled as Wilt was.
Nash is a ridiculously good player. In fact, only Jordan had a comparable playoff series.
Lamar Odom is a franchise player.
Nash's D is about the same as AI's in his MVP season.
The Lakers had Butler when they made the playoffs.
AI had Raja Bell behind him in his MVP season.
Carlos Boozer left Cleveland because the Cavs already had their franchise player in LeBron James.

I'm sure I could find a few other gems, but that should be enough.


Chris Duhon got an extra assist or two but was in no way playing at an elite level or anything close to Nash. At all. Or even close.


Seriously, learn how to f*cking read. When did I say Duhon was playing at the same level, or even close ? I didn't.

[indiefan23]

Hmm. I don't know if it's hilarious or sad you don't realize it's the exact same damn thing with Nash.

Dude, crap. Its not the same thing at all. In any way. Shaq was gifted. Totally gifted. He could have been the best and most consistent defensive force in history but he wasn't. Nash plays his best defense but just is not that awesome. Either way its really his on ball defense thats not great. His team D is above average. Again, he's led the league in drawn charges multiple time. You guys act like he just doesn't try or care and thats BS.


I don't care about numbers. The only reason those numbers are what they are is because they faced undisciplined teams that didn't take care of every possession like they should have, and got caught up in the running game, so they took bad shots. Their D never stopped somebody.

You don't care about numbers? Dude they faced all the same teams Detorit did. They faced better teams then Detroit did. Every 100 times down the court PHX allowed one more basket then Detroit did. I remember them getting plenty of stops.

Menh, that's just not true. They had above average defenses in PHX. Defense wins championships is just an MJ cliche people use to cover their lack of understanding or in your case hate they're trying to conceal. Plenty of teams have won without being a great defensive team. People just harp about defense cuz they don't have anything legitimate to justify their hate and there's no stats for D so its easy to remain bias.

I love how people act like teams like the Spurs and Detroit never won by blowing out the other team. Wheres your hate for Tony Parker? He's a defensive sieve.


Other teams stopped themselves. But in the playoffs, when teams are disciplined enough to recognize they shouldn't run like crazy and should take advantage of mismatches and poor defense, the Suns couldn't do anything. I just don't see they could have gotten past the Pistons or the Cavs. Both had the defense to contain them and a half-court game to make them pay for playing small ball. And Billups would have killed Nash.

Yea, is that why in the two James win over Nash before the Shaq trade they outscored PHX 114/114 to 109/106 and James scored 38/44 points? One game was a couple weeks after Nash started playing with the team and the other was the year Amare and Joe Johnson was out. Some kinda defensive lock down there.

The most foolish thing about your argument is that the Spurs beat both of those teams with a point guard who's an even worse defender then Steve Nash, Tony Parker, which totally refutes this silliness. They won 3 titles and had the best defense in the league over that time with a chump like Parker at the point.


I've never said he was a garbage player. Just that he played garbage basketball. There's a difference. He doesn't play defense and tries to run on every single possession. That's what garbage basketball is about.

He does play defense. You don't lead the league in drawn charges if you don't play defense chump. He doesn't lock down Chris Paul but no body locks down Chris Paul. You don't have one of the best transition D's in the league if you don't play defense. You don't have an above average defense in the league if you don't play defense. You don't allow only 2 points more per 100 possessions if you don't play defense. I'm being totally repetitive to show you how annoying it is that you only look at points allowed per game to evaluate how people play defense. If there's anyone on the team to blame its Amare because he was the center and didn't anchor the defense.

And I'm sorry, but saying someone who's a basketball player, and by that you mean he plays basketball, and when you say he plays GARBAGE basketball, it implies directly he is a garbage player. How can you be anything but?


You can't read can you ? Where did I say he played bad in that series ?

You say Nash sucks. You point to them losing to the Spurs as a reason he sucks. You say Amare averaged 38 ppg so it must have been Nash. Sounds to me like you said he was bad.


Yeah sure, Amare averaged 38 points for the series, but he got outplayed by Duncan. That makes sense.

Yep, it totally does. Amare gave up a 5-16 rebounding advantage to TD one game and had like, 4 single digit board games. The one game they did lose Parker crapped the bed with 5-17 shooting with only 5 dimes. The rest of the games, all wins, Duncan had 3 15 board games and averaged 32 points. You're going to say Amare outplayed him because he hit 2 shots and 2 free throws more then Duncan over the course of a game?

That all being said, 3 of the 4 losses were by 6 points or less. It was a tight series that didn't go PHX's way cuz they were so new together and experience won a few little things (home court advantage letting the spurs get off to that start is one thing) that could have easily gone both ways.

Like, you just keep coming back with yet another version of how Nash was not good and they're all these weak retellings of how things that Nash really didn't have control over affected their results in the playoffs. The truth is that Nash dominated the NBA for 3 years in a way that no 6'1" player ever has.

The reasons they didn't win had almost nothing to do with Nash and everything to do with the front office and immaturity of Amare/Marion. It was Nash's doing that kept those two together. Its just so ridiculous to blame Nash, who's like the ultimate team player, for all those things you're listing.

[indiefan23]

Prime Allen Iverson >>> Prime Nash defensively

Questionable. Nash = more drawn charges. 1.5 less steals but how many less gambles?


Prime Allen Iverson > Prime Nash offensively

Disagree totally. 11.5 dimes to 4.6??? +50% shooting to -40%?

If you look at Nash's shot charts he's just an offensive machine. He didn't force his own shot and try and get 30 every game but he was the engine of one of the most effficient and effective offenses of all time. Iverson is a great scorer and slasher but he's not on that level.



But

Nash definately deserved the MVP in 2006, maybe not in 2005
But it was undertandable that he was awarded it because he changed the suns from a 29-53 team, into a 29-4 team (62-20 overall I think)
But if they knew he was going to be more deservant the year after I don't think he would have got it, but nobody stood up the next year and he was more valuable than ever

Kobe averaged 35 a game, but his team barely made the playoffs, other than that there were no good candidates

I agree with all that. But who was more deserving in 05? And honestly in 07 I thought Nash should have won over Dirk. Dirks team won more games but it was because Josh Howard had started playing at an all star level and the team got better, not cuz of Dirk.

[GOBB]

Drew more charges? Any proof to that? And took less gambles? Nash doesnt have the ability to play the passing lanes like AI does. He couldnt gamble if he wanted too. I like how his lack of steals implies he doesnt gamble. No he cant gamble because he'd lose every single time. Nash on ball defense was weak. Nash defending the pick n roll was weak. Nash rotating on defense was weak. He drew charges. What players dont? So because thats the only argument you can make? You're going to exagerrate it? See you cant even attempt to show how he was as good of a defender let alone BETTER.

And I'm still trying to figure out how u got 89gms. What did you add up? AI playing 71gms in a season and Mutombo playing 18 games with AI? Why would you do it? No one else reading this thread did it but you. Why? You're not bright. And just skimmin over your back and forth with another poster? That is quite clear and evident. You struggle trying to defend, counter and make points here. You always misquote someone. You always take a persons statements or post and go left field with it and argue intensely on it. Then argue that is what they meant even when told otherwise. Your reading and comprehension sucks. Your addition sucks. Your arguments suck.



tastycake where are you? Maybe you can attempt a better argument. Seems like you two wackos are related. Scary.

[Mikaiel]

Tied game, 20 seconds left, shot clock turned off, the other team has the ball. Your life depends on it. If the team can't get a stop, you die a slow and horrible death. Would Phoenix be one of your top choices to defend in this situation ?

Defense winning championships is a myth ? WTF ? Yeah the Bulls were average defensively I guess. The 72-10 Bulls, widely considered to be the best of all time, only had 3 All-NBA Defensive 1st teamers, including 2 former DPOYs. The Spurs won because of their defense. The Celtics too. Detroit too. The only non-elite defensive teams to have won it all in recent years were the Heat and the Lakers. And they were capable on D.

As far as I know, Nash never led the league in drawn charges.

05-06 : 1st : Raja Bell (76). Nash : 23rd (36). BTW, that year Iverson finished 14th with 44 ...

06-07 : 1st : Varejao (99). Nash : 6th (62). Iverson : 15th (43).

And during both years, Varejao led the league in offensive fouls drawn per minute. And in that category, Nash is not elite.

That's the only data I have unfortunately.

[indiefan23]

Tied game, 20 seconds left, shot clock turned off, the other team has the ball. Your life depends on it. If the team can't get a stop, you die a slow and horrible death. Would Phoenix be one of your top choices to defend in this situation ?

End of third quarter. Up 30 points. Starters sitting on the bench. Yep, I'll take it.


Defense winning championships is a myth ? WTF ? Yeah the Bulls were average defensively I guess. The 72-10 Bulls, widely considered to be the best of all time, only had 3 All-NBA Defensive 1st teamers, including 2 former DPOYs. The Spurs won because of their defense. The Celtics too. Detroit too. The only non-elite defensive teams to have won it all in recent years were the Heat and the Lakers. And they were capable on D.

Defense 'can' win championships. The 00/01 Lakers were ranked 21'rst best defense. But the 2'nd ranked offense. They lost one game in their championship run. The bulls teams don't count cuz they also had the #1 ranked offense. Yes, being the best offensive and defensive team in the league is a good way to win.

The Spurs had wicked defensive teams but also had great offensive guards like Parker/Ginobli/Horry/Kerr without whom they just don't win their rings. At all. Of all the past winners only a very, very few have been rated better defensively then offensively, and the worst ranked team has been like, 8'th not counting the pistons who were the only team to truly win with defense in any recent context.

I used to use this little cliche myself until I thought about it, looked at numbers and realized that good teams win championships, not good defensive teams. When you actually look at the champions and their rankings theres almost no trend of the best defensive teams winning. The myth that defense is more important is just such a silly notion. How is 'getting a stop' more important then 'getting a go ahead basket'? If you can't do either you're going to lose.

Know what really wins championships? Match ups. The Spurs didn't beat dallas this year and the year the mavs made the finals cuz they just don't really have an answer for Dirk. They lost to the heat cuz they didn't have an answer for Wade and the the refs giving him calls. Its that simple.


As far as I know, Nash never led the league in drawn charges.

05-06 : 1st : Raja Bell (76). Nash : 23rd (36). BTW, that year Iverson finished 14th with 44 ...

06-07 : 1st : Varejao (99). Nash : 6th (62). Iverson : 15th (43).

And during both years, Varejao led the league in offensive fouls drawn per minute. And in that category, Nash is not elite.

That's the only data I have unfortunately.

Menh, maybe it was drawn per 36/48 minutes. I saw them discussing it during a game once. Either way if the guy is 6'th, or even 23'rd, how can you say he just does not play any defense? He's 6'th in a pretty relevant defensive cat out of 432 players. You can hide a defensive liability easily in your scheme anyway. That's why the spurs could win with parker. Nash's team D is solid in any case... I don't need stats to see him play it. When you're bigs are Shaq's corpse and an injured Amare however its not going to matter too much.

[indiefan23]

Drew more charges? Any proof to that? And took less gambles? Nash doesnt have the ability to play the passing lanes like AI does. He couldnt gamble if he wanted too. I like how his lack of steals implies he doesnt gamble. No he cant gamble because he'd lose every single time. Nash on ball defense was weak. Nash defending the pick n roll was weak. Nash rotating on defense was weak. He drew charges. What players dont? So because thats the only argument you can make? You're going to exagerrate it? See you cant even attempt to show how he was as good of a defender let alone BETTER.

And I'm still trying to figure out how u got 89gms. What did you add up? AI playing 71gms in a season and Mutombo playing 18 games with AI? Why would you do it? No one else reading this thread did it but you. Why? You're not bright. And just skimmin over your back and forth with another poster? That is quite clear and evident. You struggle trying to defend, counter and make points here. You always misquote someone. You always take a persons statements or post and go left field with it and argue intensely on it. Then argue that is what they meant even when told otherwise. Your reading and comprehension sucks. Your addition sucks. Your arguments suck.



tastycake where are you? Maybe you can attempt a better argument. Seems like you two wackos are related. Scary.

What players don't? Well, the 100's and 100's and 100's and 100's who don't draw as many charges then Nash, that's who. If Nash didn't have the ability to get steals why does he average 1 a game? ;0 Proving the defensive value of players is almost impossible cuz there are no stats to do it with. I see that Nash plays decent team D but you're not a reasonable person so whats the point discussing anything with you? You're predictable and boring. So menh... you fail.

[indiefan23]

Yeah sure, he was never a 20+ scorer for the Cavs. He never made spectacular plays that regularly got him in the daily top 10. No one talked about him, especially when he tried to get a triple double. If Davis was not the face of this franchise, who the hell was ? Z ? Darius Miles ? Dajuan Wagner ? Diop ?

Dude, you ignored what I said. Ricky Davis had loads of highlights. He was on the cavs for one year starting 6 games and a second year when the team totally tanked to get Lebron. That year they had Boozer and he was the face of the team. They got Lebron and traded Davis. He was 'never' their franchise player they were going to build around. And yes, before that it was Ilglauskus. He spent years hurt was exactly what happened to him.


Maybe I can help you with that.

Camby was more athletic than Wilt.
Big Baby Davis is as skilled as Wilt was.
Nash is a ridiculously good player. In fact, only Jordan had a comparable playoff series.
Lamar Odom is a franchise player.
Nash's D is about the same as AI's in his MVP season.
The Lakers had Butler when they made the playoffs.
AI had Raja Bell behind him in his MVP season.
Carlos Boozer left Cleveland because the Cavs already had their franchise player in LeBron James.

Thats all totally out of context. Some of it I didn't even say. Show some class.

And a series by a player comparable to Nash's since MJ's. There may be one but I can't think of it.



Seriously, learn how to f*cking read. When did I say Duhon was playing at the same level, or even close ? I didn't.

Well, when you make an analogy it implies they're the same or at least very similar. I'll show you one about making an incorrect analogy.

What you did is like if I make the argument that Mike D'Antoni showed up and showed your son how to dunk a nerf ball and ever since he's been scoring twice the amount of nerf points as before D'Antoni, and see, its the same thing that he did with Nash, so Nash does not deserve the credit. Except that's stupid the same way saying Nash in PHX is like Duhon in NYC. Its a poor analogy because the context is not the same at all making it invalid and a point about nothing at all.