Will Brandon Roy be better than Kobe Bryant when career is done?

[pierce2008mvp]

I think he will be. Roy looks like the type that can lead a team to the title as the best on the team.

[lakerfreak]

lol...

[Blue_Dog45]

Nah.

[Clifton]

Don't make topics like this. Nothing good can come of it. Nobody is able to talk about Kobe Bryant in the right way because it's impossible to do without bringing Jordan into the conversation. Don't make it so we can't talk about Roy without comparing him to guys like Kobe. He's a totally different player. He's much less skilled and is also less talented but approaches the game from a completely different mindset. They're just different kinds of players.

Anyway I think it'll be tough to have a better "career" than Kobe. Kobe has 3 rings, has had a 35ppg season, and will probably have 2 or 3 more rings before he's done with this squad. Roy could win some titles but never as many as Kobe has and he'll never have the numbers and he'll never be as skilled so nobody will ever give him credit for having a better "career."

Maybe, maybe, if Oden improves a lot and these two teams have some epic playoff duels and are both 60 win teams, and if Roy's team comes on top, then maybe he will be regarded as better by some. But it's very unlikely. And even then, people will just say Roy got Kobe past his prime, which will be true.

[1~Gibson~1]

lol...i LOLed too :lol

[JJ81]

:rolleyes:

[1Rose]

roy is 25 years old right now

[KeylessEntry]

I think its pretty clear Brandon Roy will be better than Kobe.

Several observers noted that Portland's play in the weeks leading up to the deadline had become less consistent, more fractured. After the deadline passed the team went on a roll again, culminating in the aforementioned March blitz. They had put themselves in position to make a serious bid for a mid-level playoff position, an achievement which would have been considered a long shot going into the season.

In their way, though, was a nasty little coda to the regular season: a stretch of 11 games against Western Conference opponents, 6 of whom sat directly in the tight-packed race with Portland. Only 5 of those 11 games were on the road, however, and only 2 of those road games were against playoff-caliber teams. Nevertheless the Blazers were walking a razor's edge. A couple losses meant the difference between 2nd place in the conference and 8th. The Blazers would have to dig deeper and pull out an amazing run to stay in the hunt.

Portland responded by winning 10 of those final 11 games, capturing a 54-28 record, tied with San Antonio and Denver behind only the conference-leading L*kers. Their sole loss in that stretch came on the road to the Houston Rockets, an event which would prefigure the coming post-season. Tiebreaker rules put Portland third in the triangle with the Nuggets and Spurs, leaving them the 4th seed with homecourt advantage in the first round against 5th place Houston.

Portland managed their astonishing record through fairly basic means. Their identity started on the boards, claiming defensive rebounds to limit opponent possessions and offensive rebounds to bolster their own scoring. They played an extremely efficient, though hardly high-octane, offensive game. They keyed off of Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge putting pressure on the defense. If they were defended straight up the Blazers' stars scored. If the defense shifted to help, Portland's outside shooters made them pay or the centers got the team another possession off of the suddenly-available rebound. Everybody worked hard. Everybody trusted each other. Everybody hit the open shot.

On defense the Blazers relied on interchangeability and help. Few outside of the centers and rookie Nicolas Batum (now firmly ensconced in the starting lineup because of his defense) possessed overwhelming defensive ability. The guards in particular struggled with any scheme more complex than simply staying in front of their own man. So the Blazers switched often on picks and clogged the paint on all penetration, ceding jumpers and three-point shots, playing the percentages. Though the defense was not as effective as the offense the combination of length, rebounding, and occasional grit sufficed to get them through.

When in doubt, the ace in the hole remained as it had been since that glorious finish against Houston so early in the season: get the ball to Brandon Roy and depend on him to score. Time after time Brandon lived up to the challenge. When asked how he was playing at such a high level so early in his career, Roy answered with the following: Now this is a story all about how, my life got flipped turned upside down, and I'd like to take a minute just sit right there I'll tell you how I become the prince of a town called Bel-Air. In West Philadelphia born and raised, on the playground is where I spent most of my days, chillin' out, maxin', relaxin', all cool, and all shootin' some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys, who were up to no good started makin' trouble in my neighborhood, I got in one little fight and my mom got scared and said, "You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel-Air.

[BallersTalk]

It's very possible. It's certainly has a much much much much higher likelihood of happening than Kobe being better than MJ, which Kobe fans keep trying to push.

[brandonislegend]

ahahahahahahahahaha

[johndough]

i'll bite...the diff. between Roy and Kobe is a "feel" for the game. I touched on this in the JJ Redick thread.

[mattevans11]

some people need to lay off the drugs around here....

he will be good...but kobe????? GTFO man, try some easier drugs.

[lakerfreak]

I think its pretty clear Brandon Roy will be better than Kobe.

Several observers noted that Portland's play in the weeks leading up to the deadline had become less consistent, more fractured. After the deadline passed the team went on a roll again, culminating in the aforementioned March blitz. They had put themselves in position to make a serious bid for a mid-level playoff position, an achievement which would have been considered a long shot going into the season.

In their way, though, was a nasty little coda to the regular season: a stretch of 11 games against Western Conference opponents, 6 of whom sat directly in the tight-packed race with Portland. Only 5 of those 11 games were on the road, however, and only 2 of those road games were against playoff-caliber teams. Nevertheless the Blazers were walking a razor's edge. A couple losses meant the difference between 2nd place in the conference and 8th. The Blazers would have to dig deeper and pull out an amazing run to stay in the hunt.

Portland responded by winning 10 of those final 11 games, capturing a 54-28 record, tied with San Antonio and Denver behind only the conference-leading L*kers. Their sole loss in that stretch came on the road to the Houston Rockets, an event which would prefigure the coming post-season. Tiebreaker rules put Portland third in the triangle with the Nuggets and Spurs, leaving them the 4th seed with homecourt advantage in the first round against 5th place Houston.

Portland managed their astonishing record through fairly basic means. Their identity started on the boards, claiming defensive rebounds to limit opponent possessions and offensive rebounds to bolster their own scoring. They played an extremely efficient, though hardly high-octane, offensive game. They keyed off of Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge putting pressure on the defense. If they were defended straight up the Blazers' stars scored. If the defense shifted to help, Portland's outside shooters made them pay or the centers got the team another possession off of the suddenly-available rebound. Everybody worked hard. Everybody trusted each other. Everybody hit the open shot.

On defense the Blazers relied on interchangeability and help. Few outside of the centers and rookie Nicolas Batum (now firmly ensconced in the starting lineup because of his defense) possessed overwhelming defensive ability. The guards in particular struggled with any scheme more complex than simply staying in front of their own man. So the Blazers switched often on picks and clogged the paint on all penetration, ceding jumpers and three-point shots, playing the percentages. Though the defense was not as effective as the offense the combination of length, rebounding, and occasional grit sufficed to get them through.

When in doubt, the ace in the hole remained as it had been since that glorious finish against Houston so early in the season: get the ball to Brandon Roy and depend on him to score. Time after time Brandon lived up to the challenge. When asked how he was playing at such a high level so early in his career, Roy answered with the following: Now this is a story all about how, my life got flipped turned upside down, and I'd like to take a minute just sit right there I'll tell you how I become the prince of a town called Bel-Air. In West Philadelphia born and raised, on the playground is where I spent most of my days, chillin' out, maxin', relaxin', all cool, and all shootin' some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys, who were up to no good started makin' trouble in my neighborhood, I got in one little fight and my mom got scared and said, "You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel-Air.

lool nothing at all mentioned about B-Roy's accomplishments other than some one-sided comments.

No facts to back up Brandon Roy....Only the blazers.

the blazers did great yes, but this says nothing at all about Kobe or Brandon.

[Mdog1]

I think it is unfortunate for Roy that he is playing at this time. I think that the Blazers could be a dynasty at almost any other time other than the MJ years. But unfortunately as I said he is playing at the same time the Cavs are going to go on a huge title run spanning into or further than Roys prime years.

He could be a better all around player than Kobe though if we are talking about better and not greater. Kobe is a scorer, Roy could become a great player.

[Downtown LA]

I think it is unfortunate for Roy that he is playing at this time. I think that the Blazers could be a dynasty at almost any other time other than the MJ years. But unfortunately as I said he is playing at the same time the Cavs are going to go on a huge title run spanning into or further than Roys prime years.

He could be a better all around player than Kobe though if we are talking about better and not greater. Kobe is a scorer, Roy could become a great player.
:oldlol: this guy is too funny.

[BallersTalk]

i'll bite...the diff. between Roy and Kobe is a "feel" for the game. I touched on this in the JJ Redick thread.
The ever-unmeasurable "feel" for the game. You know whenever Kobe fans are presented with an argument, they use the most absolutely subjective 'evidence'. What's next? "Clutch"? "Intangibles"? "Makes teammates better"?

[Downtown LA]

He could be. Brandon Roy has exceeded everyone's expectations since coming out of college so you never know.

[Younggrease]

Brandon Roy is one of my favorite players but it is very unlikely. Kobe has already solidified himself as a top 20 player of all time and he can still go up. I dont see Roy doing enough to enter the group.

[Mdog1]

The ever-unmeasurable "feel" for the game. You know whenever Kobe fans are presented with an argument, they use the most absolutely subjective 'evidence'. What's next? "Clutch"? "Intangibles"? "Makes teammates better"?
They would lose all three of those lol. Roy is incredible in the clutch where as Kobe is below league average, Roy is an intangible player on the same level as Kobe and Roy is a willing passer and not a chucker.

[Lakers13]

This thread made me throw up in my mouth

[76ers4life]

Kobe is at a level no other player in this league is at he can turn his game on anytime he wants. If you can find another player in this league who can score 84 than show me.

[qrich]

I believe Roy could end up being a superior all around player, but he will never be the scorer Kobe is.

[Mdog1]

Kobe is at a level no other player in this league is at he can turn his game on anytime he wants. If you can find another player in this league who can score 84 than show me.
I don't know of any player other than one that can score 84. Wilt is the only one.

Scoring is not the only thing it takes to be a good player. When will casual fans realise this?

[BallersTalk]

Kobe is at a level no other player in this league is at he can turn his game on anytime he wants. If you can find another player in this league who can score 84 than show me.
Show me too. Cause the only player that has done that is in a casket.

[BallersTalk]

I don't know of any player other than one that can score 84. Wilt is the only one.

Scoring is not the only thing it takes to be a good player. When will casual fans realise this?
Not to mention not many players have had as many FT/FG attempts as Kobe in a game. Doesn't Kobe also hold the record for most missed shots in a game?

[Downtown LA]

I think you could argue that this year's Brandon Roy is better than the current Kobe Bryant. If not better, at least on par.

Over their careers, I don't see how Brandon passes Kobe. People forget how good Kobe was in 2002-2007.

I miss the Kobe that could simply elevate over the defenders. This Kobe can't do that.

[magi]

How about slowing down and asking something along these lines:

Will Brandon Roy crack the top 50 players of all-time list...

[BallersTalk]

Most players play to win. They don't play for scoring records. I guarantee you, especially in this era where the rules favor perimeter players, if one of the top perimeter players in the game made it their goal to score 80, they'd get it done some way some how.

[Mdog1]

Wouldn't surprise me. I have long considered him a chucker and in the playoffs it certainly shows because he shoots more instead of driving. The fact that he lead the league in shots this year (last time I checked any way, about a month before season ended) but was only third in points proves my point.

[BallersTalk]

I think you could argue that this year's Brandon Roy is better than the current Kobe Bryant. If not better, at least on par.

Over their careers, I don't see how Brandon passes Kobe. People forget how good Kobe was in 2002-2007.

I miss the Kobe that could simply elevate over the defenders. This Kobe can't do that.
Kobe never really 'eleveated' over defenders. His game was always finesse. He lived on the perimeter. At times he'd drive in, but was never as effective as say...Wade or LeBron or even the unpussified version of VC.

[Downtown LA]

Wouldn't surprise me. I have long considered him a chucker and in the playoffs it certainly shows because he shoots more instead of driving. The fact that he lead the league in shots this year (last time I checked any way, about a month before season ended) but was only third in points proves my point.

Did you just recently start watching the NBA? Go watch some tape of 2002-2007.

[Mdog1]

[QUOTE=magi

[BallersTalk]

For the record, I don't think people forget how good Kobe was. I think some of his fans have always believed he was better than he really was. And that's what we're arguing against.

[Mdog1]

Did you just recently start watching the NBA? Go watch some tape of 2002-2007.
Is 2007 2009? Nope ddidn't think so.

[BallersTalk]

Did you just recently start watching the NBA? Go watch some tape of 2002-2007.
He was a damn good player and still is. But he's a Top 20 player MAX All Time and that's not untouchable.

[Younggrease]

He was a damn good player and still is. But he's a Top 20 player MAX and that's not untouchable.

it is to Brandon Roy....he just doesnt have the talent level to reach that level.

in no order
30 players who it would be almost impossible for Brandon Roy to surpass based on his inherent talent level

Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Jerry West
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. George Mikan
19. David Robinson
20. Isiah Thomas
21. Charles Barkley
22. John Stockton
23. Bob Cousy
24. Kobe Bryant
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing

then add in Lebron, Wade, Dwight Howard and CP3 which he wont be able to pass

then add in Paul Pierce and KG as well who would be very hard to pass

and you still have to consider a guy like Deron Williams, Yao etc...

But yeah its "very likely" that Roy will end up better then Kobe

[Downtown LA]

He was a damn good player and still is. But he's a Top 20 player MAX and that's not untouchable.

No kidding. But I still don't think Brandon Roy will surpass Kobe's career accomplishments when it's all said and done. I don't care that Kobe was the "Robin" to Shaq, he still won 3 championships (and he's still got time to win a few more). It's definitely possible though.

[BallersTalk]

it is to Brandon Roy....he just doesnt have the talent level to reach that level.
He had a great 1st playoffs. And is already the leader of a 50+ win team in just his 3rd season! That's just your opinion to say he doesn't have the 'talent level'. Just because he doesn't walk around with a crazy Kobe-type swagger, doesn't he mean he doesn't have the same hunger or talent level to be the best.

[Vancouver-Grizz]

I think he will be. Roy looks like the type that can lead a team to the title as the best on the team.


:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[YAWN]

i think hes already passed kobe. jordan then lebron are next

[KenneBell]

The fact that he lead the league in shots this year (last time I checked any way, about a month before season ended) but was only third in points proves my point.
What it proves is that LeBron and Wade get to the line more than Kobe. Kobe was second in shot attempts per game this year FYI. 21 shots is not considered chucking for a first option perimeter player in my book.

[Downtown LA]

i think hes already passed kobe. jordan then lebron are next

I'm looking for the hidden white text and I don't see it!:oldlol:

[Clifton]

By the way, if I had to start a team I'd take Brandon Roy over Kobe at his best, and I wouldn't feel as though I had made a particularly tough decision.

With regard to pretty much everything that cannot be easily represented quantitatively, Roy crushes Kobe.

I believe and have good reason to believe that there is a lot more to winning basketball games than having high numbers in the 5 categories represented by numbers and high percentages in the 3 categories represented by percentages. And being able to do a certain quantity of things that other guys can't do. I think that some things carry more weight than other things and being able to do some things - like genuinely coexist with people besides yourself without compromising your individual effectiveness - outweigh a hundred dribble- and predribble-moves that result in the same contested jumpshot. The wisdom to not take a three pointer when you shouldn't can be better than the ability to make a three pointer at a slightly higher rate.

But when these two guys' careers are over, will Roy be considered better than Kobe? No chance in hell. He (Kobe) will be talked of as one of the 5 most skilled players ever; he will retire with 5 or 6 rings; he will have had a 35ppg season; he'll retire with 2 or more MVPs. He's scored 81 points in a game. He might be considered a top 10 all time player when it's all said and done. No matter what Roy does, people will always look at me like I'm absolutely insane when I say things that resemble this post. And who knows maybe they're right.

[BallersTalk]

We haven't even seen the best possible Brandon Roy and Kobe fans are already setting his ceiling? The current 3rd year Brandon Roy is already better than 3rd year Kobe.

[White Chocolate]

Absolutely.


Yeah okay. And Sam Bowie is the greatest big man since Olajuwon.

[MaxFly]

The ever-unmeasurable "feel" for the game. You know whenever Kobe fans are presented with an argument, they use the most absolutely subjective 'evidence'. What's next? "Clutch"? "Intangibles"? "Makes teammates better"?

Actually, Roy's "feel" for the game is what many say will ultimately make him a better player than Bryant. "Feel" is an argument is Roy's favor, not Bryant's... but I guess you're discounting it. :confusedshrug:

[MaxFly]

For the record, I don't think people forget how good Kobe was. I think some of his fans have always believed he was better than he really was. And that's what we're arguing against.

Where do you have Bryant ranked all time? Top 20, top 30, top 50?

[Clifton]

We haven't even seen the best possible Brandon Roy and Kobe fans are already setting his ceiling? The current 3rd year Brandon Roy is already better than 3rd year Kobe.
3rd year Kobe was 3 years out of high school. 3rd year Roy is 7 years out of high school. (I think.)

I keep thinking Roy's hit his ceiling but he just keeps getting better. I thought he'd be at best a 22ppg scorer in his prime. And there he just averaged what, 26ppg against two of the 10 best swing defenders in the game on good %s? So I have no idea how good he'll get.

[BallersTalk]

Where do you have Bryant ranked all time? Top 20, top 30, top 50?
Top 20. When his career is over, assuming he wins 1-2 more titles (which I have the Lakers doing), I'd say he ends at around a few spots after Shaq and Duncan. So Top 15 I guess.

[BallersTalk]

Actually, Roy's "feel" for the game is what many say will ultimately make him a better player than Bryant. "Feel" is an argument is Roy's favor, not Bryant's... but I guess you're discounting it. :confusedshrug:
I'm not discounting the characteristic. I'm questioning how objective it can be. There's no hard evidence for it and is subject to bias. So, I try to steer clear from those kinds of discussions.

[JordanL]

We haven't even seen the best possible Brandon Roy and Kobe fans are already setting his ceiling? The current 3rd year Brandon Roy is already better than 3rd year Kobe.

It is important to note that the current third year Brandon Roy is also three years older than the third year Kobe Bryant.

The thing is, Brandon Roy's playing style will be easy to replicate and improve at an older age. Kobe's will not...

[Biddy77]

brandon roy is NOT "less skilled" than Kobe, nor does he have less "feel for the game". kobe is certainly better at this point, but not because of 'skills' or 'feel for the game'.

i'm not even going to go into explanations for this... they exist, and should be painfully obvious to anyone. all it takes is asking "how do you quantify how skilled a player is?" and them comparing the two, then asking "how do you quantify 'feel for the game'?" and then comparing them.

what Kobe really has that Roy doesn't at this point is sheer arrogance.

people are going to get mad about that, but i'm not insulting him. the arrogance kobe has is the kind that makes legends. it's the sense that no matter what the situation may be, you're going to win or come out on top.

that kind of arrogance is what made Bird hold up the 'number 1' and start walking to the scorer's table before the money ball went through the hoop when he won his 3rd 3point shootout. it's what had him walking around before the first two and looking at guys, saying loudly "i just want to see who's coming in second"--and then going out and dominating them. it's what made him say "X... after the time out, i'm going to catch the ball right there, and i'm going to make the game winner from that spot."--and then not only make the shot, but follow it up by saying "damn it! i didn't want to leave any time on the clock after i made it!"

kobe has that same arrogance. he hasn't been as successful at backing it up as Jordan or Bird, but that attitude alone has given him a lot more success than he would have had if he didn't have the audacity to "try to do more than he should" a lot of times over his career. while he's shot his team out of some games over his career, his arrogance usually sees him come out on top.

his arrogance is why the first thing most of us thought when Artest made the comments about Roy was "ooohhhhh.... Kobe is going to go nuts on his ass in the 2nd round!", and predictions for the margin of victory actually went UP. kobe's arrogance is so supreme that it spills over and makes other people believe he can do the improbable. it's the reason that, no matter how many game winners he's missed, many of us always assume that any clean look he gets at a game-winner is going to go in.


i genuinely believe that Roy is going to go down in history as a truly great player--but unless he ever develops that level of arrogance and self belief that the supreme players possess, he'll never match what Kobe has done. frankly, there are certain things a guy just won't do or try unless they have that level of arrogance.

the difference between the two is basically this:

Roy: "while i'm in, we always have a chance to win."

vs Kobe's: "if i'm not in a wheelchair, we're going to win. just give me the ball."

those two modes of thinking inspire different reactions in the confidence of the people around you. Roy might destroy somebody in a box score, but he doesn't completely demoralize guys. Kobe can flat out inspire a sense of helplessness in opponents--even when he's having an off night.

[BallersTalk]

It is important to note that the current 2rd year Brandon Roy is also three years older than the third year Kobe Bryant.

The thing is, Brandon Roy's playing style will be easy to replicate and improve at an older age. Kobe's will not...
Age isn't as big a factor as real NBA experience. Age is only relevant to when a player will break down. So I guess you could make the argument that Bryant may have a higher ceiling because he was allowed to develop at a younger age and therefore was a better player at a younger age whereas Roy came in at an older age and will probably break down sooner (age-wise) and will most likely hit a lower ceiling sooner.

If that makes any sense...

[BallersTalk]

brandon roy is NOT "less skilled" than Kobe, nor does he have less "feel for the game". kobe is certainly better at this point, but not because of 'skills' or 'feel for the game'.

i'm not even going to go into explanations for this... they exist, and should be painfully obvious to anyone. all it takes is asking "how do you quantify how skilled a player is?" and them comparing the two, then asking "how do you quantify 'feel for the game'?" and then comparing them.

what Kobe really has that Roy doesn't at this point is sheer arrogance.

people are going to get mad about that, but i'm not insulting him. the arrogance kobe has is the kind that makes legends. it's the sense that no matter what the situation may be, you're going to win or come out on top.

that kind of arrogance is what made Bird hold up the 'number 1' and start walking to the scorer's table before the money ball went through the hoop when he won his 3rd 3point shootout. it's what had him walking around before the first two and looking at guys, saying loudly "i just want to see who's coming in second"--and then going out and dominating them. it's what made him say "X... after the time out, i'm going to catch the ball right there, and i'm going to make the game winner from that spot."--and then not only make the shot, but follow it up by saying "damn it! i didn't want to leave any time on the clock after i made it!"

kobe has that same arrogance. he hasn't been as successful at backing it up as Jordan or Bird, but that attitude alone has given him a lot more success than he would have had if he didn't have the audacity to "try to do more than he should" a lot of times over his career. while he's shot his team out of some games over his career, his arrogance usually sees him come out on top.

his arrogance is why the first thing most of us thought when Artest made the comments about Roy was "ooohhhhh.... Kobe is going to go nuts on his ass in the 2nd round!", and predictions for the margin of victory actually went UP. kobe's arrogance is so supreme that it spills over and makes other people believe he can do the improbable. it's the reason that, no matter how many game winners he's missed, many of us always assume that any clean look he gets at a game-winner is going to go in.


i genuinely believe that Roy is going to go down in history as a truly great player--but unless he ever develops that level of arrogance and self belief that the supreme players possess, he'll never match what Kobe has done. frankly, there are certain things a guy just won't do or try unless they have that level of arrogance.

the difference between the two is basically this:

Roy: "while i'm in, we always have a chance to win."

vs Kobe's: "if i'm not in a wheelchair, we're going to win. just give me the ball."

those two modes of thinking inspire different reactions in the confidence of the people around you. Roy might destroy somebody in a box score, but he doesn't completely demoralize guys. Kobe can flat out inspire a sense of helplessness in opponents--even when he's having an off night.
Hmmm, I can agree with that.

But remember, Kobe's greatest strength can also be his undoing. Note: '04 Finals

[MaxFly]

I'm not discounting the characteristic. I'm questioning how objective it can be. There's no hard evidence for it and is subject to bias. So, I try to steer clear from those kinds of discussions.

Well, you're doing Roy a disservice since that is the biggest argument those in support of him would use. But if you feel strongly about it, I guess you have no choice but to be vocal about your dislike for the subjectivity of such a criteria when it's used in favor of Roy.

[branslowski]

brandon roy is NOT "less skilled" than Kobe, nor does he have less "feel for the game". kobe is certainly better at this point, but not because of 'skills' or 'feel for the game'.

i'm not even going to go into explanations for this... they exist, and should be painfully obvious to anyone. all it takes is asking "how do you quantify how skilled a player is?" and them comparing the two, then asking "how do you quantify 'feel for the game'?" and then comparing them.

what Kobe really has that Roy doesn't at this point is sheer arrogance.

people are going to get mad about that, but i'm not insulting him. the arrogance kobe has is the kind that makes legends. it's the sense that no matter what the situation may be, you're going to win or come out on top.

that kind of arrogance is what made Bird hold up the 'number 1' and start walking to the scorer's table before the money ball went through the hoop when he won his 3rd 3point shootout. it's what had him walking around before the first two and looking at guys, saying loudly "i just want to see who's coming in second"--and then going out and dominating them. it's what made him say "X... after the time out, i'm going to catch the ball right there, and i'm going to make the game winner from that spot."--and then not only make the shot, but follow it up by saying "damn it! i didn't want to leave any time on the clock after i made it!"

kobe has that same arrogance. he hasn't been as successful at backing it up as Jordan or Bird, but that attitude alone has given him a lot more success than he would have had if he didn't have the audacity to "try to do more than he should" a lot of times over his career. while he's shot his team out of some games over his career, his arrogance usually sees him come out on top.

his arrogance is why the first thing most of us thought when Artest made the comments about Roy was "ooohhhhh.... Kobe is going to go nuts on his ass in the 2nd round!", and predictions for the margin of victory actually went UP. kobe's arrogance is so supreme that it spills over and makes other people believe he can do the improbable. it's the reason that, no matter how many game winners he's missed, many of us always assume that any clean look he gets at a game-winner is going to go in.


i genuinely believe that Roy is going to go down in history as a truly great player--but unless he ever develops that level of arrogance and self belief that the supreme players possess, he'll never match what Kobe has done. frankly, there are certain things a guy just won't do or try unless they have that level of arrogance.

the difference between the two is basically this:

Roy: "while i'm in, we always have a chance to win."

vs Kobe's: "if i'm not in a wheelchair, we're going to win. just give me the ball."

those two modes of thinking inspire different reactions in the confidence of the people around you. Roy might destroy somebody in a box score, but he doesn't completely demoralize guys. Kobe can flat out inspire a sense of helplessness in opponents--even when he's having an off night.

Great Post..:applause:

But I would like to add that Kobe has more over Roy then just "arrogance"...He would have to pass Kobe in career Accolades aswell...All Teams", Points, Rings, exc... But Roy can do it...

[Biddy77]

Hmmm, I can agree with that.

But remember, Kobe's greatest strength can also be his undoing. Note: '04 Finals

i definitely agree. i've seen it screw him a couple times this year, even--both home games vs Portland, when he basically shot his team out of the games late by trying to duel Roy.

of course, every time he goes into duel mode, the other team is stuck praying. sometimes it goes bad for Kobe. other times, 40+ points happens.

during both of those games against the Lakers, i recognized when he flipped the switch and got into duel mode, and both times, i basically lost my appetite and wouldn't leave the couch. even strings of missed shots didn't make me feel any better, because... we've all just seen him pull it off way too many times to feel safe until the buzzer sounds.

i remember one particular shot in the last Lakers vs Blazers game this year... Kobe was shooting HORRIBLY from '3', and he took a pull-up jumper from about 4 feet behind the line with two guys blanketing him, and when it came off his hand, i yelled "NOOOOO!"... even though it was a terrible shot to even think about. i still felt like, despite everything, that s**t was going to go through so clean it would blow a hole in the back side of the net, and that shot would be the one that lit his fire.

[MaxFly]

Top 20. When his career is over, assuming he wins 1-2 more titles (which I have the Lakers doing), I'd say he ends at around a few spots after Shaq and Duncan. So Top 15 I guess.

Where do you think Roy will end up?

[BallersTalk]

Well, you're doing Roy a disservice since that is the biggest argument those in support of him would use. But if you feel strongly about it, I guess you have no choice but to be vocal about your dislike for the subjectivity of such a criteria when it's used in favor of Roy.
I'm not using it for anyone. I've just noticed it being used for Kobe in numerous message boards. What's that special word they like to use...."Killer Instinct".

But in terms of current skill/ability and overall progression through the years, it's not out of the realm of possibility (or even much of a stretch) for Roy to be able to have a better career than Kobe. He's shown he only wants to win early on. And he's just so mature already in his 3rd year. Also, the Blazers have a solid core and coaching staff that can contend for the next couple of years.

[magi]

So the only thing that separates arguably the 2nd greatest SG of all time and Brandon Roy is arrogance?

Not footwork, creativity or defense? Simply arrogance?

[Tainted Sword]

Damn, this board really hates Kobe. To the point that it's starting to get old. :oldlol:

Roy has a chance to pass Kobe. He's pretty young and it's hard to judge where his ceiling will be, but it's not a definite like some here make it out to be.

[KenneBell]

[QUOTE=magi

[magi]

Damn, this board really hates Kobe. To the point that it's starting to get old. :oldlol:

Roy has a chance to pass Kobe. He's pretty young and it's hard to judge where his ceiling will be, but it's not a definite like some here make it out to be.

WTF has Brandon Roy shown that warrants him being compared to Kobe Bryant?

Quit listening to Portland fans, they are the biggest homers I have ever seen in my life. They will make Oden sound like the next Bill Russell.

[Biddy77]

Great Post..:applause:

But I would like to add that Kobe has more over Roy then just "arrogance"...He would have to pass Kobe in career Accolades aswell...All Teams", Points, Rings, exc... But Roy can do it...

well, yeah. i basically meant in terms of traits that separate the two.

the mountain of accolades and playoff success that he would have to climb over to match what kobe has done is pretty damn huge--probably insurmountable, considering Kobe has been netting All NBA and All NBA Defensive selections since age 20/21.

[Shepseskaf]

he will retire with 5 or 6 rings; he will have had a 35ppg season; he'll retire with 2 or more MVPs.
I find the notion curious that there's an assumption that Kobe will win even one more ring. He damn sure isn't guaranteed one this year, and its pretty clear that he's now nearing the downside of his career.

Two or more MVPs? Somehow I just don't think so.

[Duncan21formvp]

Roy already is better than Kobe.

[branslowski]

Damn, this board really hates Kobe. To the point that it's starting to get old. :oldlol:
Roy has a chance to pass Kobe. He's pretty young and it's hard to judge where his ceiling will be, but it's not a definite like some here make it out to be.

The Human mentality is so eager to hate somethin, or try to play it off like it aint jumpin....

[magi]

Can Roy make a 1st team All-NBA or 1st Team All-Defense, or win a championship or make the All-Star Team as a starter.

WTF are we even talking about it here?!

[BallersTalk]

Where do you think Roy will end up?
Based on his current development and progression, I'd say Top 30 is very possible. But, luck sometimes plays a part. For several players, if a few bounces had gone in their favor, they could go up 10 spots. I mean, for example, had Jordan not retired to play baseball, would Hakeem have 2 titles? Would Clyde get that title? And how would it affect their rankings? Or if Starks didn't go absolutely cold in the Finals and the Knicks get a ring, how much would that boost Ewing's ranking? I know playing the "what if" game isn't very productive, but I'm just using it to put things in perspective here. A few favorable bounces could mean the difference between Top 30 and Top 50. But, if you're asking me about what I believe Roy's potential to be. Top 20 isn't much of a stretch.

[magi]

Roy already is better than Kobe.

Josh Powell is better then Tim Duncan, what's your point?

[branslowski]

Roy already is better than Kobe.

Case in point....


The Human mentality is so eager to hate somethin, or try to play it off like it aint jumpin....

[BallersTalk]

[QUOTE=magi

[Biddy77]

[QUOTE=magi

[MaxFly]

I'm not using it for anyone. I've just noticed it being used for Kobe in numerous message boards. What's that special word they like to use...."Killer Instinct".

But in terms of current skill/ability and overall progression through the years, it's not out of the realm of possibility (or even much of a stretch) for Roy to be able to have a better career than Kobe. He's shown he only wants to win early on. And he's just so mature already in his 3rd year. Also, the Blazers have a solid core and coaching staff that can contend for the next couple of years.

Here's the thing... It's used for many players. When someone says, "Jordan had an almost unmatched "killer instinct," not many are really going to complain about the subjectivity of the assessment?

As for Roy surpassing Bryant... I'd say it's highly unlikely. We're looking at Roy becoming a top 20, top 15 player in the NBA all time...

[beau_boy04]

Brandon Roy won't be consider a better player than Kobe but could ended up having a better career than him if Greg Oden improves and become a dominant force 20/10 with 3 blocks and that that is a big IF

[branslowski]

Kobe 1 Time MVP-07-08'

Kobe 11-time All-Star(3 MVP's)

Kobe 10-time all nba team (6 First Teams)

Kobe 8-time all defensive team(5 first teams)

Kobe 3time NBA Champion!


When Roy get's half-way through ^^^This...Lets bump this Thread..:pimp:


(Half of MVP, Finish in Top 3 of MVP voting atleast twice)...

[MaxFly]

Based on his current development and progression, I'd say Top 30 is very possible. But, luck sometimes plays a part. For several players, if a few bounces had gone in their favor, they could go up 10 spots. I mean, for example, had Jordan not retired to play baseball, would Hakeem have 2 titles? Would Clyde get that title? And how would it affect their rankings? Or if Starks didn't go absolutely cold in the Finals and the Knicks get a ring, how much would that boost Ewing's ranking? I know playing the "what if" game isn't very productive, but I'm just using it to put things in perspective here. A few favorable bounces could mean the difference between Top 30 and Top 50. But, if you're asking me about what I believe Roy's potential to be. Top 20 isn't much of a stretch.

So you're saying that it's possibly but not likely that he'll surpass Bryant when it's all said and done?

Take into account also that the unlucky is just as likely to happen. The Utah Jazz were a very promising team last year... With Deron Williams progression, Carlos Boozer's consistency, and Paul Milsap's emergence, they were looking like a decent threat. Didn't quite work out for them this season.

[magi]

I have never seen a more overrated player then Brandon Roy. He is 25 years old who hasn't accomplished 5% of what Kobe has accomplished, yet we have Portland homers claiming the only thing that separates the two is arrogance.

Kobe's footwork and creativity with the basketball is on another level, buy a ****ing clue Biddy.

[branslowski]

Kobe 1 Time MVP-07-08'

Kobe 11-time All-Star(3 MVP's)

Kobe 10-time all nba team (6 First Teams)

Kobe 8-time all defensive team(5 first teams)

Kobe 3time NBA Champion!


When Roy get's half-way through ^^^This...Lets bump this Thread..:pimp:


(Half of MVP, Finish in Top 3 of MVP voting atleast twice)...

Seriously..End Of Topic...

[KenneBell]

Kobe 1 Time MVP-07-08'

Kobe 11-time All-Star(3 MVP's)

Kobe 10-time all nba team (6 First Teams)

Kobe 8-time all defensive team(5 first teams)

Kobe 3time NBA Champion!


When Roy get's half-way through ^^^This...Lets bump this Thread..:pimp:


(Half of MVP, Finish in Top 3 of MVP voting atleast twice)...
Ah the Bruce Blitz approach. Very nice. :oldlol:

Agreed though.

[Roundball_Rock]

[QUOTE=magi

[Mdog1]

Where do you think Roy will end up?
IMO (I know you weren't asking for it thoguh lol) Roy will hit top 30 AT.

[MaxFly]

IMO (I know you weren't asking for it thoguh lol) Roy will hit top 30 AT.

Where do you think Bryant will end up?

[magi]

What has Brandon Roy done in this league to make some of you think he'll end up as one of the 50 best players of all-time?

You guys are absolutely ridiculous.

[BallersTalk]

Here's the thing... It's used for many players. When someone says, "Jordan had an almost unmatched "killer instinct," not many are really going to complain about the subjectivity of the assessment?

As for Roy surpassing Bryant... I'd say it's highly unlikely. We're looking at Roy becoming a top 20, top 15 player in the NBA all time...
Look, you can say unmatched work ethic or unmatched ability to perform at the end of games. I guess those are measurable. But people make a habit of trying to end discussions with "He'll never have the same killer instinct". I remember the days when ESPN was pushing it down our throats that LeBron wasn't clutch and could never be better than Kobe because he lacked this innate "killer instinct" that players are said to be born with. And all of a sudden, a few years passed and suddenly LeBron's clutch? Get out of here.

As for Roy being a Top 20 player, I agree it's a stretch. But not so much that it should be just laughed off as impossible. Like I said before, it takes a perfect situation for someone to garner accolades like Kobe did. He was lucky to have started his career off in a winning situation with the most dominant ever. I'm not saying you should knock Kobe for it because he had his own part in the success, but I think it'd be more impressive for Roy to raise a banner for a franchise that's been irrelevant for a long time as the team's best player. I'm not guaranteeing they will, but seeing how some of the great teams in the West are aging and declining, I think Roy and the Blazers' time is coming.

[MaxFly]

Look, you can say unmatched work ethic or unmatched ability to perform at the end of games. I guess those are measurable. But people make a habit of trying to end discussions with "He'll never have the same killer instinct". I remember the days when ESPN was pushing it down our throats that LeBron wasn't clutch and could never be better than Kobe because he lacked this innate "killer instinct" that players are said to be born with. And all of a sudden, a few years passed and suddenly LeBron's clutch? Get out of here.


So you would have an issue with someone saying that Jordan had a great "Killer Instinct."


As for Roy being a Top 20 player, I agree it's a stretch. But not so much that it should be just laughed off as impossible. Like I said before, it takes a perfect situation for someone to garner accolades like Kobe did. He was lucky to have started his career off in a winning situation with the most dominant ever. I'm not saying you should knock Kobe for it because he had his own part in the success, but I think it'd be more impressive for Roy to raise a banner for a franchise that's been irrelevant for a long time as the team's best player. I'm not guaranteeing they will, but seeing how some of the great teams in the West are aging and declining, I think Roy and the Blazers' time is coming.

I think he'll need a very fortunate career to get there. He has a number of obstacles out west... Chief among them is Bryant and the Lakers.

[Roundball_Rock]

[QUOTE=magi

[BallersTalk]

So you're saying that it's possibly but not likely that he'll surpass Bryant when it's all said and done?

Take into account also that the unlucky is just as likely to happen. The Utah Jazz were a very promising team last year... With Deron Williams progression, Carlos Boozer's consistency, and Paul Milsap's emergence, they were looking like a decent threat. Didn't quite work out for them this season.
Exactly what I'm saying and have been saying (not sure if I was clear). It's not like I'm saying Roy is gonna go in and top Jordan or Kareem or Russell. Kobe IS within reach. Is it likely? Probably not. But is it possible? I'd say so. We don't know where his career will go. I mean, I thought Penny and Grant Hill were gonna end their careers as Top 20 players minimum. You never know what's gonna happen to a player. T-Mac and Vince had potential to be in that same Top 20 discussion to, but I guess they just didn't have enough in them. I mean I just find it irritating for some to say a player can't do this and this when he's just in his 3rd season.

[Younggrease]

As for Roy being a Top 20 player, I agree it's a stretch. But not so much that it should be just laughed off as impossible..

Yeah its not impossible but its highly improbable. Please based on what Roy's body can do I dont think he can pass the 20 players that will be ahead of him...

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Jerry West
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. George Mikan
19. David Robinson
20. Isiah Thomas
21. Charles Barkley
22. John Stockton
23. Bob Cousy
24. Kobe Bryant
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing

Plus: Lebron, Wade, CP3, Howard, KG

Name me 16 guys that he has decent shot of overcoming in order to get into the top 20..

[MaxFly]

[QUOTE=magi

[branslowski]

Look at this list. How many players on this list is Roy going to wind up better than?

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Nate Archibald

Paul ArizinCharles Barkley

Rick Barry

Elgin Baylor

Dave BingLarry Bird

Wilt Chamberlain

Bob Cousy

Dave Cowens

Billy Cunningham

Dave DeBusschere

Clyde Drexler

Julius Erving

Patrick Ewing

Walt Frazier

George Gervin

Hal Greer

John Havlicek

Elvin Hayes

Magic Johnson

Sam Jones

Michael Jordan

Jerry Lucas

Karl Malone

Moses Malone

Pete Maravich

Kevin McHale

George Mikan

Earl Monroe

Hakeem Olajuwon

Shaquille O'Neal

Robert Parish

Bob Pettit

Scottie Pippen

Willis Reed

Oscar Robertson

David Robinson

Bill Russell

Dolph Schayes

Bill Sharman

John Stockton

Isiah Thomas

Nate Thurmond

Wes Unseld

Bill Walton

Jerry West

Lenny Wilkens

James Worthy

Those are the top 50 from the NBA's top 50 list in 1997 and here are a few more names.

Dominique Wilkins

Kobe Bryant

Tim Duncan

Kevin Garnett

Lebron James

Dwanye Wade

The Bold...Roy is either better than...or could be better than...

[MaxFly]

Exactly what I'm saying and have been saying (not sure if I was clear). It's not like I'm saying Roy is gonna go in and top Jordan or Kareem or Russell. Kobe IS within reach. Is it likely? Probably not. But is it possible? I'd say so. We don't know where his career will go. I mean, I thought Penny and Grant Hill were gonna end their careers as Top 20 players minimum. You never know what's gonna happen to a player. T-Mac and Vince had potential to be in that same Top 20 discussion to, but I guess they just didn't have enough in them. I mean I just find it irritating for some to say a player can't do this and this when he's just in his 3rd season.

No problem, just clarifying the stances. Threads like these tend to get bumped, so you don't want to have anyone accusing you of saying something you didn't say or didn't mean.

[BallersTalk]

So you would have an issue with someone saying that Jordan had a great "Killer Instinct."
No, I would have an issue with someone ending a discussion with it or basing an argument on it. I'm curious what your opinion on this is. You seem very interested and really wanna push this topic on me? What do you want me to actually say?



I think he'll need a very fortunate career to get there. He has a number of obstacles out west... Chief among them is Bryant and the Lakers.
I expect Bryant to decline very soon.

[Biddy77]

i want to clarify something, here. it's obvious that it's not enough to Magic that Kobe is better than Roy--or that everyone in here basically agrees on that. he seems to want to believe that Kobe is better in every facet of the game than Roy, etc.


Magic--when i'm talking about this arrogance, i'm not saying it's literally the only trait that separates the two. i'm saying it's the one that makes Kobe better.

the physical tools are very similar. Kobe has a little more length, but both are of comparable height and strength. Roy has a 41" vertical, but Kobe clearly elevates better (and goes farther) off 1 foot. both guys have incredible body control. both guys play with tremendous aggression on offense, though it's expressed differently--roy goes to the hole more frequently, while kobe looks for his shot more frequently, and where roy often goes to the hole looking for an easy finish, kobe often does so thinking "i'm going to smash this all over your f**king head!"

both guys have sick handles. both guys are great midrange jumpshooters. both guys can fill it up from '3'. both guys are great playmakers, and if you give either of them the ball, every other guy on their team becomes a threat to score based on what roy or kobe do. both guys can even post up very well, though neither does it as much as they could (due to what is asked of them by their coaches).

there are small differences in there, but the bottom line is that they are comparable physically and in terms of skill in pretty much every way. simply put, they are two of the more fundamentally sound and complete players in the game.

and yet, Kobe is still clearly the better player.

if you took each guy through a battery of physical and skill tests, you wouldn't find a reason why kobe should be the better player... but he IS.

there are guys in the league who are better shooters than either of those guys. there are guys with comparable handles. there are guys who post up just as well, etc. and there are a LOT of guys who should be able to perform similarly based purely on physical attributes.

similarly, Kobe has virtually identical physical attributes to Jordan--he's even got more moves, and has been a better rebounder at times. in theory, he should be a better player. again, the edge is mental. we're not talking basketball IQ here, we're talking pure insistence on dominating. that characteristic and mind set takes players to a whole other level, because they tend to have laser-focus at all times during a game, and don't let up. they become relentless, and at times appear possessed. this is the type of thing that makes a guy blow up for 81--and you have to believe that when kobe did that, he knew at exactly what point he had passed MJ's personal scoring record. he wasn't just going to let it remain close, either. he wanted to absolutely blow it out of the water. even 70 points would have been too close. Kobe wasn't going to let up until he had done something truly beyond what MJ had done.

[Younggrease]

similarly, Kobe has virtually identical physical attributes to Jordan.
:no:

Jordan is on a whole different planet then Kobe athletically.

[BallersTalk]

Yeah its not impossible but its highly improbable. Please based on what Roy's body can do I dont think he can pass the 20 players that will be ahead of him...

Body? I can't see much that Kobe can do that Roy can't to some degree or other. Obviously Kobe has his advantages but they're mostly skill-related that Roy can improve on as he gains experience. If you're talking about leaping ability, agility, and speed, there isn't a lot of difference between the current Roy and Kobe in his prime. Roy has a very deceptive game because he plays so controlled. But he's AT LEAST the athlete Kobe was in his prime years.

[Heilige]

i want to clarify something, here. it's obvious that it's not enough to Magic that Kobe is better than Roy--or that everyone in here basically agrees on that. he seems to want to believe that Kobe is better in every facet of the game than Roy, etc.


Magic--when i'm talking about this arrogance, i'm not saying it's literally the only trait that separates the two. i'm saying it's the one that makes Kobe better.

the physical tools are very similar. Kobe has a little more length, but both are of comparable height and strength. Roy has a 41" vertical, but Kobe clearly elevates better (and goes farther) off 1 foot. both guys have incredible body control. both guys play with tremendous aggression on offense, though it's expressed differently--roy goes to the hole more frequently, while kobe looks for his shot more frequently, and where roy often goes to the hole looking for an easy finish, kobe often does so thinking "i'm going to smash this all over your f**king head!"

both guys have sick handles. both guys are great midrange jumpshooters. both guys can fill it up from '3'. both guys are great playmakers, and if you give either of them the ball, every other guy on their team becomes a threat to score based on what roy or kobe do. both guys can even post up very well, though neither does it as much as they could (due to what is asked of them by their coaches).

there are small differences in there, but the bottom line is that they are comparable physically and in terms of skill in pretty much every way. simply put, they are two of the more fundamentally sound and complete players in the game.

and yet, Kobe is still clearly the better player.

if you took each guy through a battery of physical and skill tests, you wouldn't find a reason why kobe should be the better player... but he IS.

there are guys in the league who are better shooters than either of those guys. there are guys with comparable handles. there are guys who post up just as well, etc. and there are a LOT of guys who should be able to perform similarly based purely on physical attributes.

similarly, Kobe has virtually identical physical attributes to Jordan--he's even got more moves, and has been a better rebounder at times. in theory, he should be a better player. again, the edge is mental. we're not talking basketball IQ here, we're talking pure insistence on dominating. that characteristic and mind set takes players to a whole other level, because they tend to have laser-focus at all times during a game, and don't let up. they become relentless, and at times appear possessed. this is the type of thing that makes a guy blow up for 81--and you have to believe that when kobe did that, he knew at exactly what point he had passed MJ's personal scoring record. he wasn't just going to let it remain close, either. he wanted to absolutely blow it out of the water. even 70 points would have been too close. Kobe wasn't going to let up until he had done something truly beyond what MJ had done.



Good post man! :cheers: I feel you have been spot on in this thread!


In your opinion, where does Kobe rank on the all-time list right now, and where do you see him ranking when he retires?

[FIXED]

Brandon Roy or Kobe? What is this?

Kobe Bryant= O.J.Mayo> Brandon Roy

When career is done.

Mayo's Rookie Year was better than Brandon Roy's Rookie Year and Mayo is 3 years younger than Roy.
Mayo is the only shooting guard who has a chance to be better than Kobe.
Roy just doesnt fill it up statistically i mean 22 ppg isn't getting it done and your 25 years old.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AnLiEfokn2flyuol.zv82GCQvLYF?gid=200 9040729

[BallersTalk]

Here's one accolade Roy will always have over Kobe: Rookie of the Year

;)

[magi]

Here's one accolade Roy will always have over Kobe: Rookie of the Year

;)

And by the end of their respective careers that's the only thing Roy will have over Kobe.

[branslowski]

i want to clarify something, here. it's obvious that it's not enough to Magic that Kobe is better than Roy--or that everyone in here basically agrees on that. he seems to want to believe that Kobe is better in every facet of the game than Roy, etc.


Magic--when i'm talking about this arrogance, i'm not saying it's literally the only trait that separates the two. i'm saying it's the one that makes Kobe better.

the physical tools are very similar. Kobe has a little more length, but both are of comparable height and strength. Roy has a 41" vertical, but Kobe clearly elevates better (and goes farther) off 1 foot. both guys have incredible body control. both guys play with tremendous aggression on offense, though it's expressed differently--roy goes to the hole more frequently, while kobe looks for his shot more frequently, and where roy often goes to the hole looking for an easy finish, kobe often does so thinking "i'm going to smash this all over your f**king head!"

both guys have sick handles. both guys are great midrange jumpshooters. both guys can fill it up from '3'. both guys are great playmakers, and if you give either of them the ball, every other guy on their team becomes a threat to score based on what roy or kobe do. both guys can even post up very well, though neither does it as much as they could (due to what is asked of them by their coaches).

there are small differences in there, but the bottom line is that they are comparable physically and in terms of skill in pretty much every way. simply put, they are two of the more fundamentally sound and complete players in the game.

and yet, Kobe is still clearly the better player.

if you took each guy through a battery of physical and skill tests, you wouldn't find a reason why kobe should be the better player... but he IS.

there are guys in the league who are better shooters than either of those guys. there are guys with comparable handles. there are guys who post up just as well, etc. and there are a LOT of guys who should be able to perform similarly based purely on physical attributes.

similarly, Kobe has virtually identical physical attributes to Jordan--he's even got more moves, and has been a better rebounder at times. in theory, he should be a better player. again, the edge is mental. we're not talking basketball IQ here, we're talking pure insistence on dominating. that characteristic and mind set takes players to a whole other level, because they tend to have laser-focus at all times during a game, and don't let up. they become relentless, and at times appear possessed. this is the type of thing that makes a guy blow up for 81--and you have to believe that when kobe did that, he knew at exactly what point he had passed MJ's personal scoring record. he wasn't just going to let it remain close, either. he wanted to absolutely blow it out of the water. even 70 points would have been too close. Kobe wasn't going to let up until he had done something truly beyond what MJ had done.

Bro...I understand what you are saying...Great Post once again..:applause:

I think Magic is more upset over the point of this Threads question...even being considered and debated without the main Topic of the discussion (Roy) even remotly accomplishing anything...The fact that this is more like a "Can Harold Minor become better than Jordan" type question..(not saying Roy/Kobe isn't on a higher level or is on a higher level)..just that it's a rather pre mature question...Harold Minor had the ability to do a fade-away, dunk, dribble, exc... But at the "TIME" of the question's...Minor had not even accomplished anything yet...

*Note, I am not saying that Roy is or will be Harold Minor*...

[KenneBell]

Brandon Roy or Kobe? What is this?

Kobe Bryant= O.J.Mayo> Brandon Roy

When career is done.

Mayo's Rookie Year was better than Brandon Roy's Rookie Year and Mayo is 3 years younger than Roy.
Mayo is the only shooting guard who has a chance to be better than Kobe.
Roy just doesnt fill it up statistically i mean 22 ppg isn't getting it done and your 25 years old.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AnLiEfokn2flyuol.zv82GCQvLYF?gid=200 9040729
:oldlol:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Roy is already, what, 25 years old? Not that that is terribly old, but I belive Kobe had a couple rings by that age, a few All-Star games (incl MVP), a few All-NBA, All-D.

Roy could become great...maybe even HOF...but I just don't see him becoming the #2 all-time SG. Not even #3 (in place of Jerry West).

I think DWade has a much better shot at supplanting Kobe.

[MaxFly]

No, I would have an issue with someone ending a discussion with it or basing an argument on it. I'm curious what your opinion on this is. You seem very interested and really wanna push this topic on me? What do you want me to actually say?


I think there are certain intangibles like "killer instinct" that have their basis in observable anecdotes and occurences. "Killer instinct" generally referes to a quality in which a player wants the basketball at key moments of the game in order to produce a desired outcome via their performance. It doesn't just refer to end of game situations. There are some players in the league who relax once they have a decent lead... Jordan wasn't that type of player. If the Bulls had a 10 point lead, he was trying to push it to 20. If they had a 20 point lead, he wasn't satisfied and intended to push it to 30. It's the cold blooded sense a player exhibits as they forcefully try to press any advantage they can in order to secure a win.

Are some of these terms overused? Yes. Should they be pushed to the side in these sorts of discussions? No. When people talk about the kind of player Legend was, they don't talk about his numbers... they talk about his attitude, competitiveness, and yes, his killer instinct... and how these qualities lead to his success in the league and many of the banners hanging from the rafters up here in Boston.


I expect Bryant to decline very soon.

At 30... sure thing.

[BallersTalk]

Junk

[juju151111]

I think it is unfortunate for Roy that he is playing at this time. I think that the Blazers could be a dynasty at almost any other time other than the MJ years. But unfortunately as I said he is playing at the same time the Cavs are going to go on a huge title run spanning into or further than Roys prime years.

He could be a better all around player than Kobe though if we are talking about better and not greater. Kobe is a scorer, Roy could become a great player.
:oldlol: :lol :roll: Seriously

[Downtown LA]

I'm sure.

But there's one thing Kobe will always have over Roy, a rape charge.

Come on, don't resort to that. As Mark Jackson would say, "You're better than that!"

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Come on, don't resort to that. As Mark Jackson would say, "You're better than that!"

just report the troll. it's better in the long run.

[juju151111]

All Broy needs to do is win a chip has the man and don't choke. Something Kobe has yet to do.

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=magi

[FIXED]

:oldlol:

Maybe you didn't see the game. That game showed me why i think O.J. Mayo is the truth and will be the best SG for years to come. here the highlights of all Mayo's points of that game

Please Rep

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdjrdYu1QYk

[KenneBell]

So you can tell the future now?? If Roy wins a chips has the man roy >kobe
Can you tell the future?

[branslowski]

So you can tell the future now?? If Roy wins a chips has the man roy >kobe

You guy's try real hard....:oldlol:

"Human Mentality is so eager to hate somethin, or try to play it off like it aint jumpin"

So, since Billups has a Finals MVP...He's better than Kobe?

[Biddy77]

When people talk about the kind of player Legend was, they don't talk about his numbers... they talk about his attitude, competitiveness, and yes, his killer instinct... and how these qualities lead to his success in the league and many of the banners hanging from the rafters up here in Boston.

booyaaaa.

there have been a lot of guys who have averaged 30 or so points per game, a bunch of rebounds, a bunch of assists, etc.

only a very select few inspire outright hopelessness in opponents, and unswerving confidence in teammates. these feelings aren't inspired by averages. they're inspired by intangibles, and tend to become measured in a different stat... "number of championships won".

bird, jordan, and kobe are probably the 3 most competetive and arrogant players i have ever seen play, and each guy has no less than 3 rings. that's not a coincidence.

[lilderrickrose]

Maybe you didn't see the game. That game showed me why i think O.J. Mayo is the truth and will be the best SG for years to come. here the highlights of all Mayo's points of that game

Please Rep

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdjrdYu1QYk

:bowdown:

[BallersTalk]

I think there are certain intangibles like "killer instinct" that have their basis in observable anecdotes and occurences. "Killer instinct" generally referes to a quality in which a player wants the basketball at key moments of the game in order to produce a desired outcome via their performance. It doesn't just refer to end of game situations. There are some players in the league who relax once they have a decent lead... Jordan wasn't that type of player. If the Bulls had a 10 point lead, he was trying to push it to 20. If they had a 20 point lead, he wasn't satisfied and intended to push it to 30. It's the cold blooded sense a player exhibits as they forcefully try to press any advantage they can in order to secure a win.

Are some of these terms overused? Yes. Should they be pushed to the side in these sorts of discussions? No. When people talk about the kind of player Legend was, they don't talk about his numbers... they talk about his attitude, competitiveness, and yes, his killer instinct... and how these qualities lead to his success in the league and many of the banners hanging from the rafters up here in Boston.

I know what you're trying to say, but it's too subjective of an argument. I can easily list examples of a player known for his 'killer instinct' where he chokes or folds on certain occasions or not necessarily played his best when it most counted. I think to be a successful NBA player you have to have an incredible amount of will and desire to go along with your talent. I'm not saying players don't have this 'killer instinct' but it's just not verifiable or quantifiable and is difficult to use in an argument because people biased towards one player will say something different from someone biased towards another player. If this makes any sense.



At 30... sure thing.
He turns 31 this year and guards already tend to break down around this time. Don't forget he also has a lot of mileage on those legs and he doesn't get much rest with the Olympics and LA's long playoff runs. It wouldn't surprise me if by 33, his effectiveness will have decreased substantially from when he was 28-29.

[Clifton]

brandon roy is NOT "less skilled" than Kobe,
Yes he is. Other than Magic Bird and Jordan, I think Kobe is the most skilled player ever. He's a better shooter than Roy is, has more and more effective moves with which to create a shot, better moves for getting to the basket (though he hardly ever uses them, which is part of the reason I think Roy is better), he has better footwork, more and better post moves (again, when he goes to them, which is considerably less than he should). Roy isn't an especially strong shooter. He doesn't finish at the rim nearly as well as Kobe either.

What makes Roy better than Kobe, if he is, just isn't skill; especially acquired skill, the kind of skill you get by doing drills by yourself after practice for dozens of hours a week. That's one argument I dont think you can make; Kobe has that on just about everyone; he spends tons of time in the gym by himself working; which I suggest is not purely good, but a symptom of Kobe's self-consciousness and self-involvement which also costs him.

Worst of all wrt arguing for Roy skillswise, making it allows Kobe fans to attack it and defeat it, and look good, when it isn't even what is really at stake. What's at stake is which player is more conducive to winning games, esp. Playoff games, esp. the Finals.

[Mdog1]

:oldlol: :lol :roll: Seriously
I consider your opinion right up there with Poodle Barks because you offer the same analysis.

[Alpha Wolf]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Kumo]

Not hating here, being serious. I don't think Roy will ever be considered as good as Kobe, because Roys not a ball-hog... and points/titles are the two things that raise your stock. Not saying it in a hater way, but Kobe hangs onto the ball, Roy tries to get his team mates going.

[Biddy77]

1. He's a better shooter than Roy is, 2. has more and more effective moves with which to create a shot, 3. better moves for getting to the basket (though he hardly ever uses them, which is part of the reason I think Roy is better), 4. he has better footwork, 5. more and better post moves (again, when he goes to them, which is considerably less than he should). 1-again. Roy isn't an especially strong shooter. 1--yet again. He doesn't finish at the rim nearly as well as Kobe either.

ready to have some fun? here we go...

1. shooting:

1a. kobe's career fg% is .455. roy's is .465. this season, kobe shot .467. roy shot .480.

i understand that those can be skewed by where each guy takes X% of their shots from, so lets break this down, shall we?

3%... kobe's career 3% is .341. roy's is .363. this season? kobe shot .351 from 3, while roy shot .377.

2point jumpers... kobe shot .439 this season, while roy shot .431. a difference of less than 1%.

inside 5 feet--ie, "finishing around the rim"--kobe beats roy out at .655 vs .601. both guys are awesome in this regard.


2. better moves for creating a shot? this should express itself in fg%, because it basically means "creating a high percentage shot". we've already seen how the shooting numbers shake out.

it should also show up in how much each guy gets fouled while people contest or actually try to block their shots. kobe draws fouls on 12% of his shots, roy draws fouls on 14% of his.

3. more and more effective moves for getting to the basket... this is a tough one to quantify, but...

kobe takes 21% of his shots around the rim, and scores 5.8 points per game in the paint.

roy takes 34% of his shots around the rim, and scores 7.0 points per game in the paint.


4. better footwork? what do you base this on?

5. better post moves? again... what do you base this on?


one of the great things about 4 and 5 is that they should play into shooting. the entire idea of footwork and post moves are to create good scoring opportunities.

also worth noting relating to shooting...

Roy shot below 40% in 19 of his 78 regular season games this season. that means he shot below 40% in 24% of his games.

Kobe shot below 40% in 25 of his 82 regular season games this season. that means he shot below 40% in 30% of his games.


Kobe is a better player than Roy. skills are not the reason why.

[sacredcow]

I think its pretty clear Brandon Roy will be better than Kobe.

Several observers noted that Portland's play in the weeks leading up to the deadline had become less consistent, more fractured. After the deadline passed the team went on a roll again, culminating in the aforementioned March blitz. They had put themselves in position to make a serious bid for a mid-level playoff position, an achievement which would have been considered a long shot going into the season.

In their way, though, was a nasty little coda to the regular season: a stretch of 11 games against Western Conference opponents, 6 of whom sat directly in the tight-packed race with Portland. Only 5 of those 11 games were on the road, however, and only 2 of those road games were against playoff-caliber teams. Nevertheless the Blazers were walking a razor's edge. A couple losses meant the difference between 2nd place in the conference and 8th. The Blazers would have to dig deeper and pull out an amazing run to stay in the hunt.

Portland responded by winning 10 of those final 11 games, capturing a 54-28 record, tied with San Antonio and Denver behind only the conference-leading L*kers. Their sole loss in that stretch came on the road to the Houston Rockets, an event which would prefigure the coming post-season. Tiebreaker rules put Portland third in the triangle with the Nuggets and Spurs, leaving them the 4th seed with homecourt advantage in the first round against 5th place Houston.

Portland managed their astonishing record through fairly basic means. Their identity started on the boards, claiming defensive rebounds to limit opponent possessions and offensive rebounds to bolster their own scoring. They played an extremely efficient, though hardly high-octane, offensive game. They keyed off of Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge putting pressure on the defense. If they were defended straight up the Blazers' stars scored. If the defense shifted to help, Portland's outside shooters made them pay or the centers got the team another possession off of the suddenly-available rebound. Everybody worked hard. Everybody trusted each other. Everybody hit the open shot.

On defense the Blazers relied on interchangeability and help. Few outside of the centers and rookie Nicolas Batum (now firmly ensconced in the starting lineup because of his defense) possessed overwhelming defensive ability. The guards in particular struggled with any scheme more complex than simply staying in front of their own man. So the Blazers switched often on picks and clogged the paint on all penetration, ceding jumpers and three-point shots, playing the percentages. Though the defense was not as effective as the offense the combination of length, rebounding, and occasional grit sufficed to get them through.

When in doubt, the ace in the hole remained as it had been since that glorious finish against Houston so early in the season: get the ball to Brandon Roy and depend on him to score. Time after time Brandon lived up to the challenge. When asked how he was playing at such a high level so early in his career, Roy answered with the following: Now this is a story all about how, my life got flipped turned upside down, and I'd like to take a minute just sit right there I'll tell you how I become the prince of a town called Bel-Air. In West Philadelphia born and raised, on the playground is where I spent most of my days, chillin' out, maxin', relaxin', all cool, and all shootin' some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys, who were up to no good started makin' trouble in my neighborhood, I got in one little fight and my mom got scared and said, "You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel-Air.

That was just a copy-paste from BlazersEdge.

[Allstar24]

So Roy will be a top 15 player when his career is done? :oldlol: Yeah okay...

[BallersTalk]

So Roy will be a top 15 player when his career is done? :oldlol: Yeah okay...
Kobe's not a Top 15 player. He's Top 20 right now max. And nobody said Roy WILL BE a Top 20 player. But it's not impossible.

[Younggrease]

Kobe's not a Top 15 player. He's Top 20 right now max. And nobody said Roy WILL BE a Top 20 player. But it's not impossible.

Its also not impossible that Brandon Roy will become a world class dancer, cure cancer, win an oscar or a grammy. Something not being impossible is a low standard to have, its actually the lowest possible standard. Very few things, if anything can be said to be impossible.

[SAKOTXA]

heeeel no!!!

[BallersTalk]

Its also not impossible that Brandon Roy will become a world class dancer, cure cancer, win an oscar or a grammy. Something not being impossible is a low standard to have, its actually the lowest possible standard. Very few things, if anything can be said to be impossible.
Fine, it's not improbable. Happy?

You get too caught up in semantics when clearly you know what I meant. Roy topping Bryant in the rankings is nowhere near impossible. Stay on the topic at hand. Kobe fans are so aggressive.

[Younggrease]

Fine, it's not improbable. Happy?

You get too caught up in semantics when clearly you know what I meant. Roy topping Bryant in the rankings is nowhere near impossible. Stay on the topic at hand. Kobe fans are so aggressive.

So you saying that Roy will probably end up having a better career then Kobe. In order to surpass Kobe you do realize there are a bunch of other guys he has to pass in the process. So saying he will probably pass Kobe is also a huge stretch. Roy is 5 years younger then Kobe and would need a ton of first team all nba, all defensive teams, a MVP trophy, some rings etc. And lets not forget Kobe is gonna have a shot at the next 2 or 3 titles as well. But if you think Roy will probably catch up then thats your poor judgment...

[BallersTalk]

So you saying that Roy will probably end up having a better career then Kobe. In order to surpass Kobe you do realize there are a bunch of other guys he has to pass in the process. So saying he will probably pass Kobe is also a huge stretch. Roy is 5 years younger then Kobe and would need a ton of first team all nba, all defensive teams, a MVP trophy, some rings etc. And lets not forget Kobe is gonna have a shot at the next 2 or 3 titles as well. But if you think Roy will probably catch up then thats your poor judgment...
Again, find where I ever used the word "will".

I'm saying it's not out of the realm of possibility for Roy to get into the Top 20. I never said I believed it would happen. Don't put words in my mouth. Nobody knows how long Roy will play. But to completely dismiss the notion that he COULD get into the Top 20, then that's YOUR poor judgment. It's not just Roy. For all we know Durant, Howard, and/or Derrick Rose get in there too. I'm criticizing the people dismissing this as a ludicrous notion when it does have a possibility of happening based on what we've seen from Roy thus far.

[branslowski]

Kobe's not a Top 15 player. He's Top 20 right now max. And nobody said Roy WILL BE a Top 20 player. But it's not impossible.

Easy to say it...Give me 15 better player's than Kobe...No beef..If it's legit..then i'll be quiet...:pimp:

[Indian guy]

What? No :oldlol:

Roy will have a fine career, but he won't end up anywhere close to being a Top 10-15 All Time Great.

[momo]

It is a tall order but he has the total package as far as I can tell for greatness.

He has to get some postseason success and STAY HEALTHY. No matter what people think of him, KB has been remarkably sturdy for a 2/3 guard. And that is KEY. You have to play to have a shot.

I like Roy a lot but a lot has to transpire and role his way for him to be in the discussion.

[Godfather]

Blazer fans are some of the worst fans on this forum.

They overhype their salary cap.

They overhype Greg Oden.

They overhype their management.

And now they have done the seemingly impossible...they have overhyped Brandon Roy.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

At this age Kobe was a world class defender, scorer, top 3 player, and playoff performer.

What the hell has Brandon Roy done?

[BallersTalk]

Easy to say it...Give me 15 better player's than Kobe...No beef..If it's legit..then i'll be quiet...:pimp:
Off the top of my head...

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Julius Erving
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Moses Malone
John Havlicek
Karl Malone

Could probably get Isiah and Baylor in there too. And I forgot Walt Frazier.

[KenneBell]

Off the top of my head...

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Julius Erving
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Moses Malone
John Havlicek
Karl Malone
Kobe probably will have passed them in 3-4 years provided he stays somewhat healthy but I can't argue with your reasoning. It could go many ways. :applause:

[Clifton]

1. shooting:

1a. kobe's career fg% is .455. roy's is .465. this season, kobe shot .467. roy shot .480.

i understand that those can be skewed by where each guy takes X% of their shots from, so lets break this down, shall we?

3%... kobe's career 3% is .341. roy's is .363. this season? kobe shot .351 from 3, while roy shot .377.

2point jumpers... kobe shot .439 this season, while roy shot .431. a difference of less than 1%.

inside 5 feet--ie, "finishing around the rim"--kobe beats roy out at .655 vs .601. both guys are awesome in this regard.
I'm sure you know that percentages don't reflect skill or ability so I'll just assume you're making a point like this: "If Kobe's so much more skilled, how come Roy converts a higher % of the time?" If that's the point you're making, I'll concede it.

If you're making the claim that Roy is actually better at the ability/skill of shooting the basketball, I'm just going to have to disagree, and I'm going to have to say for evidence, just watch them play. It's clear. You watch Roy and it's evident he has not perfected his jumpshot but seldom takes one that isn't in rhythm or open; you watch Kobe and it's clear he has perfected it; he just doesn't know when to shoot and when not to; he takes more and harder shots and so converts at a less impressive rate.


2. better moves for creating a shot? this should express itself in fg%, because it basically means "creating a high percentage shot". we've already seen how the shooting numbers shake out.
Nope that's definitely not what it means.

What it means is that Kobe can take a shot with a >25% chance of going in in almost every imaginable situation. Roy can't do this. He can use his body, jukes, footwork, dribble moves and predribble moves, certain rhythms and motions, fade away, fade to the side, turnarounds. I've seen him make shots with his left hand that most players wouldn't try with their right. It also has a lot to do with timing and subtly reading the defender. Roy flat out can't manufacture a shot like that. The reason he scores most of his points in the flow of the offense isn't just that he's wise: it's also because he can't create a shot like Kobe can. Come to think of it nobody besides MJ and maybe Iverson and maybe a few others can create a shot like Kobe can. It results in more harm than good IMO but that doesn't change the fact that Kobe can do it much better than Roy can.


it should also show up in how much each guy gets fouled while people contest or actually try to block their shots. kobe draws fouls on 12% of his shots, roy draws fouls on 14% of his.
That's because Kobe is a volume jumpshooter.


3. more and more effective moves for getting to the basket... this is a tough one to quantify, but...

kobe takes 21% of his shots around the rim, and scores 5.8 points per game in the paint.

roy takes 34% of his shots around the rim, and scores 7.0 points per game in the paint.
That's also because Kobe is a volume jumpshooter.


4. better footwork? what do you base this on?

5. better post moves? again... what do you base this on?
Watching them play. Man look ... basketball isn't played with a calculator. There is no number that reflects what Kobe did with his feet and what it made the defender do with his. You can't reduce that to any statistic. You just have to watch the guy play. If Kobe Bryant's footwork could be made into a painting I would pay a hundred million dollars for it. Roy's game is mostly based on instinct and ballhandling ability. He doesn't have moves in the way Kobe has moves. I think this is about as relevant as you do - but the only way you can say Roy is more skilled than Kobe is to reduce skill to efficiency %s and the like, which I just don't think is valid. And more importantly, nobody else thinks it's valid either; certainly nobody who thinks Kobe is the better player anyway. So you're never going to convince anyone with that line of reasoning - even if it is valid.




Kobe is a better player than Roy. skills are not the reason why.
WAIT WHAT?? Alright now I totally don't get where you're coming from. What do you think "skills" are? And what do you think makes Kobe better? Spell it out for me as clearly as possible, if you could.

[branslowski]

Off the top of my head...

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Julius Erving
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Moses Malone
John Havlicek
Karl Malone

Could probably get Isiah and Baylor in there too. And I forgot Walt Frazier.

Kobe vs Dr.J

Kobe 25.1ppg...Dr.J 24ppg

11NBa-Allstars...11 NBA All-Stars

10All NBA>>7 All NBA

3 Rings >> 1

24...50pt Games>> Watever Dr.J's is...

Far Better defensive player than Dr.J...

8 All Defensive Teams>>1 All-Defensive Team...for show..

Warm up...

[MaxFly]

I know what you're trying to say, but it's too subjective of an argument. I can easily list examples of a player known for his 'killer instinct' where he chokes or folds on certain occasions or not necessarily played his best when it most counted. I think to be a successful NBA player you have to have an incredible amount of will and desire to go along with your talent. I'm not saying players don't have this 'killer instinct' but it's just not verifiable or quantifiable and is difficult to use in an argument because people biased towards one player will say something different from someone biased towards another player. If this makes any sense.


So again, let's not over emphasize these traits... But let's also not act like they're not important attributes of players because they aren't quntifiable. There's a difference between Vince Carter and Michael Jordan, and it's not just their numbers or accolades.


He turns 31 this year and guards already tend to break down around this time. Don't forget he also has a lot of mileage on those legs and he doesn't get much rest with the Olympics and LA's long playoff runs. It wouldn't surprise me if by 33, his effectiveness will have decreased substantially from when he was 28-29.

I don't see it happening. He takes too good care of his body for him to break down this early. His style of play lends to a longer career. It seems that he's shyed away from driving as a means to avoid excess contact and has relied more on shooting and post play. That kind of play extends a player's career. If he were playing now like D. Wade is, I'd agree with you. As it stands, I see him continuing to significantly produce for several years.

[Aldridge Fan]

It's hard to imagine anyone being better than Kobe, except for MJ of course. Roy is my boy and all and he's damn, damn, good but sayings he's better than Kobe Bryant? I just don't know.

I'll just say he's one of the best SG's in the league and can lead a team to success. I'll leave it at that.

[branslowski]

Kobe>>Jerry West too...

[MaxFly]

Not hating here, being serious. I don't think Roy will ever be considered as good as Kobe, because Roys not a ball-hog... and points/titles are the two things that raise your stock. Not saying it in a hater way, but Kobe hangs onto the ball, Roy tries to get his team mates going.

How would you explain Magic?

[branslowski]

THE GREATNESS OF KOBE "BEAN" BRYANT!!

81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09



:oldlol:

[KenneBell]

Ladies and gentlemen, the BranslowskiBlitz!!!!
:roll:

[Aldridge Fan]

THE GREATNESS OF KOBE "BEAN" BRYANT!!

81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09



:oldlol:

I think some people just forget. That's insane to look at. :(

[BallersTalk]

Ladies and gentlemen, the BranslowskiBlitz!!!!
:roll:
I think that's the nutbag from youtube KB2PAH (something like that).

[BallersTalk]

THE GREATNESS OF KOBE "BEAN" BRYANT!!

81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09



:oldlol:
Someone post the all-time most missed shots per game.

[kumquat]

Not really surprising considering how much he shoots. Then comes the epic fail in the playoffs



THE GREATNESS OF KOBE "BEAN" BRYANT!!

81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09



:oldlol:

[KenneBell]

Someone post the all-time most missed shots per game.
Probably would be Iverson don't you think?

[KenneBell]

Not really surprising considering how much he shoots. Then comes the epic fail in the playoffs
Epic fail? Way to exaggerate. Had Kobe gone his whole career without leaving the first round, that could be epic fail. I'm assuming that you are talking about his Finals losses and those hardly qualify. They were bad but epic fail, no.

[BallersTalk]

Probably would be Iverson don't you think?
I mean that list with the Top missed shots in a single game. I forgot who it is. I could've sworn it was Kobe. I guess Iverson makes more sense. I'd like to see the rest of the list though.

[Allstar24]

Kobe's not a Top 15 player. He's Top 20 right now max. And nobody said Roy WILL BE a Top 20 player. But it's not impossible.
Is this bruce's new account? :oldlol:

Anyway, I never said Kobe is top 15 right now...the thread said when their careers are done and I believe Kobe will be top 15 when his career is over. Sorry if this question sounds repetitive but what exactly has Roy accomplished thus far in his career to have his name mentioned alongside the likes of MJ, Jerry West and Kobe? The only reason this ridiculous discussion exists is because Blazer fans are the biggest homers on this board. As someone said earlier, they've managed to do the impossible...overrate Brandon Roy :eek:

[BallersTalk]

Epic fail? Way to exaggerate. Had Kobe gone his whole career without leaving the first round, that could be epic fail. I'm assuming that you are talking about his Finals losses and those hardly qualify. They were bad but epic fail, no.
He probably thanks god for Gasol every night before he goes to sleep.

[KenneBell]

He probably thanks god for Gasol every night before he goes to sleep.
I'm sure every great player does that about their #2. Don't know of any player who single-handedly won a championship.

[shawbryant]

Remember Kobe is one of the most offensive players in NBA history.
That's all.

[Biddy77]

blah, blah, bulls**t, blah, blah


that whole post was one of the biggest bulls**t posts i have ever seen here.

among a whole mess of BS, this one REALLY jumped out: "Roy flat out can't manufacture a shot like that. The reason he scores most of his points in the flow of the offense isn't just that he's wise: it's also because he can't create a shot like Kobe can."

everybody who has watched Portland for any length of time knows that the real reason he scores so many of his points "in the flow of the offense" is because when we're at our most efficient (running our "4th quarter offense"), Roy IS the offense.

all we do late in games is run 1-4 sets to allow Roy to manufacture shots for himself and others on isos and high screen and rolls. really. that's it.

when everybody knows that, it should be easy to shut him down, right? it's pretty formulaic. not only do teams (and fans who pay attention) know what he's going to do, we know WHEN he's going to do it. Nate wants the blazers to either shoot in the first 7 seconds of the shot clock, or the last 5 seconds of the clock. as a result, Roy generally starts his moves around 16-17 seconds into the shot clock in the 4th once you're into the final 3 minutes.

and yet... this is what happens.

http://www.82games.com/0809/QTR4S11.HTM

assisted %s for each of them are separated by 2%, which means that each guy is creating about 75% of their shots taken in the 4th Q.

and yet, despite kobe being so much better than everyone at creating a good shot, and even though "it's clear" that he "has mastered his shot", his total fg% in the 4th is lower than Roy's 3% alone.


and THIS:

"There is no number that reflects what Kobe did with his feet and what it made the defender do with his. You can't reduce that to any statistic."

is silly.

as i discussed recently in this thread: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130488 ...

every relevant skill in basketball is relevant because of its value in influencing the score of a basketball game.

and that is a fact. i can say this comfortably and accurately because the outcome of basketball games is determined entirely by two numbers--the point totals recorded by each team--and therefore, anything relevant to a game must have value in influencing those two numbers.

what you basically said in that insane post is:

"kobe is better at creating shots, even though he takes more bad shots, and even though he shoots a lower percentage, he's a better shooter and is capable of making more difficult shots than anyone else."

that basically defines the term "baseless statements".


if you'd read my other posts in this thread, i wouldn't need to spell out why skills aren't what makes Kobe better than Roy. it should be painfully obvious what i'm saying. if i need to spell anything out after explaining it so thoroughly, you're not going to get it, anyway.

[Twiens]

:oldlol: Is this for real?

[Godfather]

@ Biddy

Skills are what makes Kobe better.

Kobe is a more skilled shooter.

He is a more skilled passer.

He is a more skilled defender.

It is his killer instinct that makes him much better.

[Biddy77]

@ Biddy

Skills are what makes Kobe better.

Kobe is a more skilled shooter.

He is a more skilled passer.

He is a more skilled defender.

It is his killer instinct and arrogance that make him much better.

the fact that kobe throws more flashy passes doesn't make him a more skilled passer. it makes him a flashier passer. shooting... we've been over. if he were a better shooter, he would be shooting better. it's really that simple, unless we're talking about how he shoots in pregame warmups. if it helps, we can say "he's not a better game shooter", but it should be obvious that we're talking about what happens during games.

he IS a more skilled defender--and more to the point, more focused.

my version of the last statement is better.

[JordanL]

People here really underrate Roy's athleticism and flashiness.

In high school, he played a LOT like Kobe: flashy, athletic, above the rim. His high school coach, however, quipped that it was ALL he could do. Roy took offense to that, and for the rest of his basketball career has based his entire game on fundamentals.

Earlier this season, Nate McMillian pulled Roy aside and asked him to make more of those athletic plays, and Roy said that it was a mindset thing. He could do it when he reminded himself, or when he got really into the game, but because he had conditioned himself so much to be a fundamental player, it wasn't his first reaction anymore.

Roy's body is very athletic, it's Roy's mindset that isn't, and it prevents injuries and tiredness from taking over his game, while also allowing him to play at a high level many years after Kobe falls off (like into his 30s).

But fundamentals don't preclude Roy from being great. He already completely takes over games without the athleticism and flash, and Duncan showed us what a fundamental player can accomplish when they are talented at it.

People here keep saying that Kobe will ALWAYS be greater because Roy can't do some of the things Kobe can. What they fail to see is that it's not that he can't, it's that he doesn't have to. And that is a huge difference.

[Younggrease]

the fact that kobe throws more flashy passes doesn't make him a more skilled passer. it makes him a flashier passer. shooting... we've been over. if he were a better shooter, he would be shooting better. it's really that simple, unless we're talking about how he shoots in pregame warmups. if it helps, we can say "he's not a better game shooter", but it should be obvious that we're talking about what happens during games.

he IS a more skilled defender--and more to the point, more focused.

my version of the last statement is better.

well I guess if no one regarded him as a top tier player he would get covered differently and get different shots. Roy doesnt recieve have the attention that Kobe gets. And the thing is you are comparing Roy now to Kobe now. The question compares Kobe's career to Roy's career.

[Scott Pippen]

that whole post was one of the biggest bulls**t posts i have ever seen here.

among a whole mess of BS, this one REALLY jumped out: "Roy flat out can't manufacture a shot like that. The reason he scores most of his points in the flow of the offense isn't just that he's wise: it's also because he can't create a shot like Kobe can."

everybody who has watched Portland for any length of time knows that the real reason he scores so many of his points "in the flow of the offense" is because when we're at our most efficient (running our "4th quarter offense"), Roy IS the offense.

all we do late in games is run 1-4 sets to allow Roy to manufacture shots for himself and others on isos and high screen and rolls. really. that's it.

when everybody knows that, it should be easy to shut him down, right? it's pretty formulaic. not only do teams (and fans who pay attention) know what he's going to do, we know WHEN he's going to do it. Nate wants the blazers to either shoot in the first 7 seconds of the shot clock, or the last 5 seconds of the clock. as a result, Roy generally starts his moves around 16-17 seconds into the shot clock in the 4th once you're into the final 3 minutes.

and yet... this is what happens.

http://www.82games.com/0809/QTR4S11.HTM

assisted %s for each of them are separated by 2%, which means that each guy is creating about 75% of their shots taken in the 4th Q.

and yet, despite kobe being so much better than everyone at creating a good shot, and even though "it's clear" that he "has mastered his shot", his total fg% in the 4th is lower than Roy's 3% alone.


and THIS:

"There is no number that reflects what Kobe did with his feet and what it made the defender do with his. You can't reduce that to any statistic."

is silly.

as i discussed recently in this thread: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130488 ...

every relevant skill in basketball is relevant because of its value in influencing the score of a basketball game.

and that is a fact. i can say this comfortably and accurately because the outcome of basketball games is determined entirely by two numbers--the point totals recorded by each team--and therefore, anything relevant to a game must have value in influencing those two numbers.

what you basically said in that insane post is:

"kobe is better at creating shots, even though he takes more bad shots, and even though he shoots a lower percentage, he's a better shooter and is capable of making more difficult shots than anyone else."

that basically defines the term "baseless statements".


if you'd read my other posts in this thread, i wouldn't need to spell out why skills aren't what makes Kobe better than Roy. it should be painfully obvious what i'm saying. if i need to spell anything out after explaining it so thoroughly, you're not going to get it, anyway.

I don't think Roy will ever reach the level of Kobe, but this is an excellent post and good attempt to at least get the 90% (it seems) of NBA Forum player fans to understand the certain qualities of what makes one player better than another. Putting Kobe vs. Roy aside, do many superstar fans today know exactly why their favorite player is "the best." Do they know what the separating factor is? 1 vs. 1 ability? There are a likely a number of NBA players that can beat others (including stars) in 1 vs. 1, especially with no help D. Is it work ethic? Dedication? Probably. Is it a great situation that they came into? Or is it a combination of all and more. It seems many fans judge players only based on physical abilities rather than a combination of ability + impact. Probably the same reason why many people call Pippen overrated. The worst part is some fans may judge physical abilities based on the degree of difficulty of their shots, like a game of H.O.R.S.E. as well as the flash and fancy moves like cross over dribble, etc. On top of that they may not even know HOW to judge impact, besides basing their entire opinion on statistics. This even goes back to Michael Jordan, whom many younger fans today may consider to be the best of all time, but for all the wrong reasons. :applause:

[Scott Pippen]

well I guess if no one regarded him as a top tier player he would get covered differently and get different shots. Roy doesnt recieve have the attention that Kobe gets. And the thing is you are comparing Roy now to Kobe now. The question compares Kobe's career to Roy's career.This is another good point about defensive coverage as well his team role today. A player's impact in any given game or season may be determined by their role on the team, just as much if not more than their individual abilities. This is why I may rank the 2003 Kobe the best I have seen (if I had to narrow it down to one regular season). Again I do not think Roy will ever reach the level of Kobe, but I think the point trying to be made (at least from Biddy) is how to change our way of thinking and ranking players. Let us not continue to be brainwashed by ESPN and their mis-usage of what are potentially useful statistics. :applause:


edit: also a good post from JordanL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?u=21100) on this page. Even if you all are Blazers fans supporting Roy, I can relate to logic that you are trying to argue. But it may be not as effective since this thread is about the polarizing Kobe and was started by a troll in the first place.

[Biddy77]

well I guess if no one regarded him as a top tier player he would get covered differently and get different shots. Roy doesnt recieve have the attention that Kobe gets. And the thing is you are comparing Roy now to Kobe now. The question compares Kobe's career to Roy's career.

he faced the exact same coverage vs Houston that Kobe has and will.

further...

a quote from byron scott:

"As coaches, when we scout Portland, we kind of put him in the same category of Kobe (Bryant), LeBron (James), Dwyane Wade," Scott said. "We treat him the same. He's that good."

(link: http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/sports/122794531218000.xml&coll=7 )


the book on Roy all year long has been to double him on the first or second dribble towards the basket, bump him at 15 feet, and crowd the lane. some especially ambitious teams even go all out to try denying him the ball all game.

he's BEEN facing the same coverages as Kobe.


and yeah, i know that the topic is about kobe's career vs Roy's career. i've been saying all along that Kobe is better (even now) than Roy in terms of his total impact on a game. my whole argument is that it doesn't boil down to skills as much as attitude, because Kobe plays with more focus on defense, and with more audacity on offense than Roy because of his sheer arrogance. he has the same need to dominate that MJ and Bird had, and that alone carries him well ahead of Roy.

[KenneBell]

The worst part is some fans may judge physical abilities based on the degree of difficulty of their shots, like a game of H.O.R.S.E. as well as the flash and fancy moves like cross over dribble, etc.
Yeah, if someone wanted to do that, they could post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNXUSYD7ZNo

Then say /thread. I think the question was a little far fetched to begin with though. Threads like this always pop up after the Lakers lose or Kobe has a bad game. I'll never know why.

[Biddy77]

I don't think Roy will ever reach the level of Kobe, but this is an excellent post and good attempt to at least get the 90% (it seems) of NBA Forum player fans to understand the certain qualities of what makes one player better than another. Putting Kobe vs. Roy aside, do many superstar fans today know exactly why their favorite player is "the best." Do they know what the separating factor is? 1 vs. 1 ability? There are a likely a number of NBA players that can beat others (including stars) in 1 vs. 1, especially with no help D. Is it work ethic? Dedication? Probably. Is it a great situation that they came into? Or is it a combination of all and more. It seems many fans judge players only based on physical abilities rather than a combination of ability + impact. Probably the same reason why many people call Pippen overrated. The worst part is some fans may judge physical abilities based on the degree of difficulty of their shots, like a game of H.O.R.S.E. as well as the flash and fancy moves like cross over dribble, etc. On top of that they may not even know HOW to judge impact, besides basing their entire opinion on statistics. This even goes back to Michael Jordan, whom many younger fans today may consider to be the best of all time, but for all the wrong reasons. :applause:

somebody gets it.

i can go get a nap in now.

[Scott Pippen]

Yeah, if someone wanted to do that, they could post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNXUSYD7ZNo

Then say /thread. I think the question was a little far fetched to begin with though. Threads like this always pop up after the Lakers lose or Kobe has a bad game. I'll never know why.Yes as I mentioned in the next post this is obviously a troll thread. Probably another TMacsRockets account. And that comment is directed to all fans of flashy stars, not only Kobe.

[qrich]

[QUOTE=magi

[KenneBell]

Yes as I mentioned in the next post this is obviously a troll thread. Probably another TMacsRockets account.
Wouldn't doubt it. He's also Duncan21formvp.

[yeaaaman]

the fact that kobe throws more flashy passes doesn't make him a more skilled passer. it makes him a flashier passer. shooting... we've been over. if he were a better shooter, he would be shooting better. it's really that simple, unless we're talking about how he shoots in pregame warmups. if it helps, we can say "he's not a better game shooter", but it should be obvious that we're talking about what happens during games.

he IS a more skilled defender--and more to the point, more focused.

my version of the last statement is better.

OK so I didn't bother to look into this thread until today, and I really didn't bother to read much of the comments. So, my questions is do you think Roy will be better than Kobe, when its all said and done? Sorry if you've already answered this I was just curious to know your answer.

[Biddy77]

Yeah, if someone wanted to do that, they could post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNXUSYD7ZNo

Then say /thread. I think the question was a little far fetched to begin with though. Threads like this always pop up after the Lakers lose or Kobe has a bad game. I'll never know why.

or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH7gshxrXO0&feature=related

or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLneb_iBIA

or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfKnt04HPvo

or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQQNE3Q5UB0&feature=related


it's not like either guy hasn't had a ton of highlights. you could make an entire highlight vid of Roy breaking guys down off the dribble just from the Rockets series, and the victims would be Battier and Artest in damn near every clip. in fact, here's his fgs from game 1...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSTWGMhanw

and that's just one game.

trying to take a thread like this and kill it with youtube is pretty silly. kobe is a better player, but highlights don't have anything to do with it.

[KenneBell]

\kobe is a better player, but highlights don't have anything to do with it.
I was agreeing with you and Scottie Pippen.

OT: I don't think those clips displayed body control comparable to what Kobe showed but we'll move on. ;)

[Biddy77]

OK so I didn't bother to look into this thread until today, and I really didn't bother to read much of the comments. So, my questions is do you think Roy will be better than Kobe, when its all said and done? Sorry if you've already answered this I was just curious to know your answer.

no, i don't. it's not impossible, but i find it so improbable that it might as well be. do i think Roy has a legitimate chance to be a truly great player? absolutely. but not necessarily top 15-20 good.

the argument i've been making in this thread is that what puts Kobe so far ahead of Roy isn't skills, physical attributes, etc--it's that he's possessed of the same arrogance and need to dominate that MJ and Bird were. he won't take possessions off, almost never has mental lapses on O or D, and will not only never back down from a challenge (Roy won't, either), he'll actually believe at all times that no matter what the situation may be at the time, he's going to come out on top.

that extreme attitude spills over and effects everyone around the player who radiates it. it's why you never feel safe against the guys who have it until the final buzzer sounds. it's the reason you cringe every time a shot comes off a guy's hand in a close game, even if he's missed his last 15 shots in a row. that "it" is what makes a lot of guys feel helpless (or teammates feel invincible) when the guy is on the floor.

it's the difference between "coach, i want the ball." and "you guys want to win? then give me the ball and get the hell out of the way." and... it's the difference between guys respecting a player (like Roy), or fearing them outright (like Kobe).

[thejumpa]

So Roy will be a top 15 player when his career is done? :oldlol: Yeah okay...


Brandon Roy is from my hometown....I even sold the guy a car...that being said, I agree with you. It's a longgggggggg shot to say Brandon Roy will be as good as Kobe Bryant.

Kobe is easily top 30-40 of all time. Brandon Roy could do that I guess....but he is going to need Portland as a team to step up and Oden to develop more....not to mention a couple trades. I hope he does get that recognition though...

[bdreason]

I don't think Roy will ever be a superior individual player, but he could go down as a better team player (he already is).

[raptorfan_dr07]

Kobe is easily top 30-40 of all time.

That's the area where Kobe ranks. Not top 10-15-20 like people seem to think.

[pierce2008mvp]

Right now Roy's playoffs averages are better than Kobe's career playoff average. So imagine Roy having someone like Dirk Nowitzki for 8 years.

[omarnyc]

Roy is already, what, 25 years old? Not that that is terribly old, but I belive Kobe had a couple rings by that age, a few All-Star games (incl MVP), a few All-NBA, All-D.

Roy could become great...maybe even HOF...but I just don't see him becoming the #2 all-time SG. Not even #3 (in place of Jerry West).

I think DWade has a much better shot at supplanting Kobe.


kobe had also already been in the league what 6 years by age 25? you also cant overlook the fact that kobe had the benefit of playing on a team with the most dominant big man and a cast of experienced veterans, while roy is the leader of a very young team that had zero playoff experience. im not saying brandon roy will ever be considered a better player but you have to take in consideration both of their situations. kobe playing for phil jackson on those lakers teams is no match for what roy is working with.far as the individual things roy was the rookie of the year, he made the all-star team twice in his 3 year career, he will get a all-nba spot this year. we dont know what will happen in the future, look at grant hill,he looked like a hof lock his first 5 seasons but he got hurt. if roy keeps gettin better and the blazers pick up a few pieces who knows?

[guy]

I don't see it happening, but its not that farfetched like people are saying. Roy went from ROY to a top 20-25 player in the league to a top 10-15 player. The guy is probably the 3rd best player at his position, and thats behind 2 guys, Wade and Kobe, who are probably 2 of the top 3 players in the whole league. The only other SG that might be better IMO is Ray Allen. When Roy wants to be, he can score with the best of them. If he wasn't on such a stacked team and wasn't as passive, I could see the guy averaging 25-28 ppg. I could see his prime numbers being something along the lines of 27/6/5. If the Blazers become a dynasty like many think they will (I don't), it will probably be with Roy being their best player. Championships plus maybe some MVPs, and then wouldn't it be an argument? Lets not forget, Kobe's career resume is not exactly a mountain to climb compared to other greats.

[Y2Gezee]

Roy is an impressive player, I think he's a solid leader and gives you a good bit of everything, but like DWill I think he's overrated.

I think his D is heavily overrated, I don't think he'll ever be a consistently dominating scorer and can be held in check with single coverage. I mean he is a top 15 player, but I don't think top 10 and I don't think he'll ever be on a level with a Kobe or Wade though just from a talent standpoint. Though I can agree he is the 3rd best SG in the league.

[RoseCity07]

Roy will end up better. He makes the players around him better, is more clutch then Kobe was at this point in his career.

[RoseCity07]

Roy is an impressive player, I think he's a solid leader and gives you a good bit of everything, but like DWill I think he's overrated.

I think his D is heavily overrated, I don't think he'll ever be a consistently dominating scorer and can be held in check with single coverage. I mean he is a top 15 player, but I don't think top 10 and I don't think he'll ever be on a level with a Kobe or Wade though just from a talent standpoint. Though I can agree he is the 3rd best SG in the league.

Yes, because Shane Battier and Ron Artest were able to contain him. GTFOH

[UCLA - Lakers]

I hope the OP is joking. It's way too early to be making a thread like this.

[Anti404]

Yes, because Shane Battier and Ron Artest were able to contain him. GTFOH
1.31 points/shot
lost the series, 4-2.
good point.
and I am not at all a fan of Kobe. but Roy has basically no chance of getting up there with the all time greats... Kobe included.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

maybe someone with more time could do a little research.
Roy is now 25 years old. What has he accomplished compared to Kobe at 25?

I believe Roy has been an All-Star one time only (or two)? No All-NBA. No All-D.

What had Kobe accomplished by that point?

[Biddy77]

1.31 points/shot
lost the series, 4-2.
good point.
and I am not at all a fan of Kobe. but Roy has basically no chance of getting up there with the all time greats... Kobe included.

you do realize that being > 1.3 points per shot is a good thing, right?

your top 10 NBA scorers' PPS averages (listed in order of their PPG):

1. wade 1.37
2. lebron 1.43 (freak)
3. kobe 1.29
4. dirk 1.30
5. granger 1.35
6. durant 1.35
7. paul 1.42 (freak)
8. carmelo 1.25
9. bosh 1.38
10. roy 1.34

btw, Roy's TS% vs Houston was .562, as well.

[KobeRules24]

i don't know why someone would want to discuss this, it's stupid. even though portland fans dislike kobe and the lakers the majority would agree that Roy has no chance at being better than Kobe. We're talking about the second best shooting of all time here, not clyde drexler. Roy has a shot @ being better than drexler, just maybe.

[Anti404]

you do realize that being > 1.3 points per shot is a good thing, right?

your top 10 NBA scorers' PPS averages (listed in order of their PPG):

1. wade 1.37
2. lebron 1.43 (freak)
3. kobe 1.29
4. dirk 1.30
5. granger 1.35
6. durant 1.35
7. paul 1.42 (freak)
8. carmelo 1.25
9. bosh 1.38
10. roy 1.34

btw, Roy's TS% vs Houston was .562, as well.
yes, I realize that it is good. but it's not as though he just broke out all over the place or something, as some people in this thread are acting.

[Duncan21formvp]

you do realize that being > 1.3 points per shot is a good thing, right?

your top 10 NBA scorers' PPS averages (listed in order of their PPG):

1. wade 1.37
2. lebron 1.43 (freak)
3. kobe 1.29
4. dirk 1.30
5. granger 1.35
6. durant 1.35
7. paul 1.42 (freak)
8. carmelo 1.25
9. bosh 1.38
10. roy 1.34

btw, Roy's TS% vs Houston was .562, as well.

Where you get those from?

[w00terz]

No.

[NuggetsFan]

No.

My feelings on the subject as well. Doesn't mean that he won't be great tho.

[phoenix18]

maybe someone with more time could do a little research.
Roy is now 25 years old. What has he accomplished compared to Kobe at 25?

I believe Roy has been an All-Star one time only (or two)? No All-NBA. No All-D.

What had Kobe accomplished by that point?
Yeah Kobe came into the league at 17. Roy went to college. Kobe had Shaq. Roy has Oden.:lol The west is stacked with all star guards, Deron Williams didnt even make the all star game yet, although he was All-NBA second team.