Why I think Michael Jordan was Overrated

[Jinxed]

If Lebron James were to get injured this off-season or go play baseball, how many games do you think the Cavaliers would win next year....think about it for a second...40? 45 tops? What if the Heat didn't have Wade? or the Hornets didn't have CP3...how many less games would these teams win next year? Surely about 15-20 right? Agree with me so far?

Well in 1992-1993 the Chicago Bulls won the NBA title. They went 57-25. After the season Jordan left to go play baseball.

The next year without Jordan, the Chicago Bulls went 55-27. That's only two less games they won! The only major addition they had to their team was Toni Kukoc, who averaged 10 points in 24mpg as a rookie.

In the playoffs they would lose to the Knicks in 7 games. Who in turn lost to the Rockets in 7 games. They were a championship level team, a rebound here and a foul call there that would have gone their way and they may just have won it all.

Jordan had an AMAZING supporting cast for all his championship runs.

In 1996 when he came back for the full season, they also added Rodman..giving them four all star level players ..jordan,pippen,rodman and kukoc to go along with perfect roll players and the best coach in the game.

There is a psychological principle that states the more times you here someone's name, the more you will like them. The more times you hear Jordan the better you think he is. Jordan was the first huge marketing revelation in the NBA with Nike and Gatorade and at a time when the game was going global. His name, face and image were everywhere, at an unprecedented level, and this added to his mystique and made people think he was better than he was.

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, he was. I'm not even saying he wasn't the best ever. He may have been. All I'm saying is that I don't think he's as good as everyone thinks he was.

[halffttime]

you're definitely right.. i mean 10 scoring titles, 5 mvps, 6 final mvps, 1 dpoy, 6 championships, and 11 all-nba's aren't thaaaat great.. just your average nba career.. :rolleyes:

[shortlunatic]

i have one comment to all that make the poor decision to open this thread like i did...plz dnt respond...the more we ignore, the faster this page will sink to the second page and be forgotten forever...

[DonDadda59]

Someone murk this clown please, I'm really tired of rehashing the same info to these misinformed 12 year olds :rolleyes:

[Kiarip]

I agree with the spirit of this.

I feel like people that say things like "O Jordan was on a whole other level from today's top players" are just nostalgic idiots.

First of all, it was a different game in the 90s. Also, he wasn't better than today's top players completely. There's obviously things he was worse at, and some things he was better at... He may even really be the best so far, but he's not a head above everyone all-time, that's just probabalistically impossible considering the popularity of basketball.

[bruceblitz]

If Lebron James were to get injured this off-season or go play baseball, how many games do you think the Cavaliers would win next year....think about it for a second...40? 45 tops? What if the Heat didn't have Wade? or the Hornets didn't have CP3...how many less games would these teams win next year? Surely about 15-20 right? Agree with me so far?

Well in 1992-1993 the Chicago Bulls won the NBA title. They went 57-25. After the season Jordan left to go play baseball.

The next year without Jordan, the Chicago Bulls went 55-27. That's only two less games they won! The only major addition they had to their team was Toni Kukoc, who averaged 10 points in 24mpg as a rookie.

In the playoffs they would lose to the Knicks in 7 games. Who in turn lost to the Rockets in 7 games. They were a championship level team, a rebound here and a foul call there that would have gone their way and they may just have won it all.

Jordan had an AMAZING supporting cast for all his championship runs.

In 1996 when he came back for the full season, they also added Rodman..giving them four all star level players ..jordan,pippen,rodman and kukoc to go along with perfect roll players and the best coach in the game.

There is a psychological principle that states the more times you here someone's name, the more you will like them. The more times you hear Jordan the better you think he is. Jordan was the first huge marketing revelation in the NBA with Nike and Gatorade and at a time when the game was going global. His name, face and image were everywhere, at an unprecedented level, and this added to his mystique and made people think he was better than he was.

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, he was. I'm not even saying he wasn't the best ever. He may have been. All I'm saying is that I don't think he's as good as everyone thinks he was.
1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16, not 10 as was falsely posted.

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986
(1st ranked D)

1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988
(5th ranked D)

1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989
(2cnd ranked D)

1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990
(19th ranked D)

1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991
(14th ranked D)

1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992
(24th ranked D)

1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993
(9th ranked D)

1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995
(9th ranked D)

1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996
(3rd ranked D)

1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997
(13th ranked D)

1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998
(16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES SERIES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
Even more important, Jordan was the main target of these defenses the ENTIRE TIME.


69 Cleveland OT Cleveland 3/28/90
64 Orlando OT Chicago 1/16/93
63 Boston 2OT Boston (Playoffs) * 4/20/86 against #1 rated defense that year
Jordan has the highest point total against a #1 rated defense in league history
in the playoffs no less
61 Detroit OT Detroit 3/4/87
61 Atlanta Chicago 4/16/87
59 Detroit Detroit 3/3/88
58 New Jersey Chicago 2/6/87
57 Washington Chicago 12/23/92
56 Philadelphia Chicago 3/24/87
56 Miami Miami (Playoffs) 4/29/92
55 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/1/88
55 Phoenix Chicago (Playoffs) 6/16/93
55 New York New York 3/28/95
55 Washington Washington (Playoffs) 4/30/97
54 L.A. Lakers Los Angeles 11/20/92
54 Cleveland Chicago 11/3/89
54 New York Chicago (Playoffs) 5/31/93
53 Portland Chicago 1/8/87
53 Indiana Chicago 4/12/87
53 Phoenix Chicago 1/21/89
53 Detroit Chicago 3/7/96
52 Cleveland Chicago 12/17/87
52 Portland Chicago 2/26/88
52 Boston Boston 11/9/88
52 Philadelphia Philadelphia 11/16/88
52 Denver Denver 11/26/88
52 Orlando Orlando 12/20/89
52 Charlotte Chicago 3/12/93
51 New Orleans Washington 12/29/01
51 Washington Washington 3/19/92
51 New York Chicago 1/21/97
50 New York New York 11/1/86
50 Milwaukee Milwaukee 4/13/87
50 Boston Chicago 3/18/88
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 4/28/88
50 Milwaukee Chicago 2/16/89
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/5/89
50 Denver Chicago 3/24/92
50 Miami Miami 11/6/96
Those are Jordan's 50 point games, notice how many of them came in the PLAYOFFS. Notice how many came against great defenses and great teams. Also Jordan was the main focus of each defense he faced. That's very important.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career. Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.

[Al Thornton]

The reason they did so well the next year was first of all because the Bulls always played great defense so even with MJ gone they could still win games without his 30 a night. And Pippen was a great leader his season back then is the equivalent of Lebron's right now. So no Jordan is not overrated.

[Bush4Ever]

1. The Bulls coasted for much of the 1993 regular season, while the 1994 Bulls played balls-to-the-wall for the entire regular season. This is fairly well documented.

2. The Bulls were approximately a .500 team in 1995 before Jordan came on board. Not great.

Jordan led the NBA in win shares virtually every year of his prime. There is a reason for that.

[highwhey]

I want to jizz on your mothers face.

[Jinxed]

1. The Bulls coasted for much of the 1993 regular season, while the 1994 Bulls played balls-to-the-wall for the entire regular season. This is fairly well documented.

2. The Bulls were approximately a .500 team in 1995 before Jordan came on board. Not great.

Jordan led the NBA in win shares virtually every year of his prime. There is a reason for that.

If your first point is true, then that's a good one. Source?

Win shares is calculated very similar to PER, and takes into account box score statistics to base its theories on. Not bad, but has many fallacies and I don't think it's a good representation of actual win shares..just well named.

Jordan was a BALL HOG, and therefore his statistics are inflated.

I would love to have a real adjusted plus/minus on Jordan's career. Unfortunetaly we don't have one.

[Jinxed]

You guys do realize that game where he scored 63 went into double overtime and the Bulls LOST right?

[DonDadda59]

If your first point is true, then that's a good one.

Win shares is calculated very similar to PER, and takes into account box score statistics to base its theories on. Not bad, but has many fallacies and I don't think it's a good representation of actual win shares..just well named.

Jordan was a BALL HOG, and therefore his statistics are inflated.

I would love to have a real adjusted plus/minus on Jordan's career. Unfortunetaly we don't have one.

How exactly was Jordan a ball hog? His teams were mainly built as defensive squads, you think they should've given more shots to Dennis Rodman? He had to carry a bigger offensive load because they weren't an offensively potent team, solid but not great. He shot over 50% as a Bull and handed out over 5 APG, as the secondary playmaker on the team (He was putting up unreal all around #s, near triple double averages as the main playmaker). And he won his championships and put up extraordinary statistical production in the toughest defensive era ever. Now you want to talk about 'inflated' #s, let's talk about the no contact rules on the perimeter and the 3 second rule...

[GOBB]

What the hell are win shares?

[west]

Sorry,wrong post.

[Jinxed]

How exactly was Jordan a ball hog? His teams were mainly built as defensive squads, you think they should've given more shots to Dennis Rodman? He had to carry a bigger offensive load because they weren't an offensively potent team, solid but not great. He shot over 50% as a Bull and handed out over 5 APG, as the secondary playmaker on the team (He was putting up Lebron-like all around #s before the triangle, as the main playmaker). And he won his championships and put up extraordinary statistical production in the toughest defensive era ever. Now you want to talk about 'inflated' #s, let's talk about the no contact rules on the perimeter and the 3 second rule...

The 1993-1994 Bulls had the 14th ranked offense in the leage, better than average and the next year they had the 10th best offense in the league. This is without Jordan..so they were still a Good offensive team, even without Mike.

The way I view Jordan, especially the early years before Pippen came around is similar to the year Kobe avg 35 points a game. You're right, he didn't have many other players on his team that could score, besides briefly playing with George Gervin and Orlando Woolridge...and because he carried most of the offense he had INFLATED statistics...stats he woudn't have if there were other scorers on the team. So...thanks for helping prove my point.

[Fatal9]

What the hell are win shares?
A stat that allocates a fraction of each win among the players on the winning team. 1 win = 1 win share. A star player might get .2 win share, bench players .05 and so on to complete 1 share.

Easily the worst stat that is cited here on ISH. In summary, just laugh and ignore whoever tries to make a credible argument based on this stupid stat.

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ Jinxed. :oldlol:

Yeah, Jordan was "overrated" despite dominating the league in every aggregate statistical metric for a decade and winning more rings and ammassing more MVP's and accolades than all but 1 or 2 other players in history. Okay. :oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

The 1993-1994 Bulls had the 14th ranked offense in the leage, better than average and the next year they had the 10th best offense in the league. This is without Jordan..so they were still a Good offensive team, even without Mike.

The way I view Jordan, especially the early years before Pippen came around is similar to the year Kobe avg 35 points a game. You're right, he didn't have many other players on his team that could score, besides briefly playing with George Gervin and Orlando Woolridge...and because he carried most of the offense he had INFLATED statistics...stats he woudn't have if there were other scorers on the team. So...thanks for helping prove my point.
Jordan is the GOAT. Period.

1981 Breaks record at McDonald's All-American game by scoring 30 points

1982= hits game winner for North Carolina, jumps into pass lane on defense forcing Sleepy Floyd to turn the ball over to James Worthy.

1983 = UNC choked in the NCAA tourney despite having the #2 seed, not Jordan

1984 = 1984 Named college Player of the Year. 1984 Wins Olympic gold medal as the leader of the U.S. basketball team. UNC choked again in the sweet 16 despite having the #1 seed, not Jordan

1985 = joined Chicago, who only won 27 games the year before, and led the franchise to 38 games and the playoff's. 1985 Named NBA Rookie of the Year.

1986 = Took the Celtics to a 3rd game rubber match, (yes kids only 3 game series at that point in NBA history), scored 63 points on the team that went on to win the championship that year, the Celtics were the #1 rated defense in the NBA, Jordan took them to their limit, despite Orlando Woolridge shooing 9-27 in the game, Jordan still kept the Bulls in it.

1987 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 48.2%(37.1ppg) of his shot attempts, Winner Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA Defensive Player of the Year, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named to the All-NBA First Team, back in the playoffs again. Jordan averaged over 40 points per game for over half of this season.

1988 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.5% of his shot attempts, Wins Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, Pippen was still developing, the help around Jordan was limited, lost to the eventual world champs in the playoffs, still got them to the playoffs

1989 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.8% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Jordan and his teammates had a decent showing against the Pistons, Jordan did everything he could, the cast around him hadn't developed enough to beat a stacked team like Detroit.

1990 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 52.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Once again ran into the Detroit buzzsaw, but still led the Bulls to the playoffs.

1991 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Chicago Bulls to their first NBA title. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy.

1992 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 51.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Wins Olympic gold medal with U.S. basketball team, leads bulls to back-to-back titles. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor.

1993 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads bulls to their 3rd straight championship, In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, an NBA finals record which has never been threatened.

1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

1996 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player. Leads Bulls to their 4th championship of Jordan's career as leader of the team. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. (Dennis Rodman, great defender, even though Gary Payton beat him out for defensive player of the year award and Dennis Rodman's prime was in the 80's, Rodman was a liability on offense, still contributed with defense and rebounding.)

1997 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 48.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Bulls to 5th championship as the leader of the team, In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

1998 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 46.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, led Bulls to 6th championship as leader of the team, In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

-Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards


2001 - 02 = MJ comes out of retirement to play for the Wizards, Jordan was 8 years removed from his prime.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career.
Doug Collins decided to move Jordan to the point guard spot against Seattle on March 11, 1989. He finished that game with 15 assists. Two days later, he had a game of 21/14/14 against the Pacers in just 30 minutes of playing time in a 32-point blowout win. He reached the triple double mark in just 21 minutes. Jordan continued to play at the PG spot until the end of the season. In these 24 games he averaged 29.3ppg, 8.9rpg, 10.6 apg, 2.4spg. Between March 24 and April 14, 1989, he recorded a triple double in ten of the eleven games, including seven consecutive ones. In the game he didn't record a triple double, he finished with 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds. The hands down greatest of all time, anyone disputing this is a misinformed individual.

Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.

I just shut down your thread!

[DCMC]

Fail

[bruceblitz]

Jordan holds the most scoring records, most finals MVP's, and you combine that with his record career averages in the regular season and playoffs, his 10 scoring titles, plus being the leader of 6 championship teams, it shows how dumb you are for making this retarded ass thread kid. **** yourself in the ass!

[andgar923]

Jordan was clearly overrated, how THE ENTIRE WORLD doesn't see that is beyond amazing.

People need to understand that MJ was just all hype.

Just because you guys actually saw him play during his prime, doesn't mean he isn't overrated.

[GOBB]

Anyone who took this thread serious from the start is a retard.

Food for thought. Eat up.


A stat that allocates a fraction of each win among the players on the winning team. 1 win = 1 win share. A star player might get .2 win share, bench players .05 and so on to complete 1 share.

Easily the worst stat that is cited here on ISH. In summary, just laugh and ignore whoever tries to make a credible argument based on this stupid stat.

:roll:

[LA_Showtime]

:oldlol: @ BruceBlitz not being able to stand Kobe trolls when he's exactly the same way with Michael....

[njeshizzle]

Listen, Jordan will always be considered the best basketball player to ever play. The point isn't if is or wasn't the best but once you retire and you become more ambiguous to the latter generations you become like a myth and no current star in the NBA can compete with a Myth. A myth grows as more people add to it. I bet in 10-15 years people will say/believe that Jordan had 4 legs 8 hands and could score 100points a game on his own.

[Jinxed]

Who is this moron who keeps copying and pasting from some website?

I don't think this dude gets my point about Jordan..

Ball Hog. Which inflated his scoring statistics. I hold his scoring AGAINST HIM.

It's the reason I think the Bulls were almost as good without him. Because they were able to share the ball more, instead of one player being a ball hog and taking all the shots.

His scoring dominance is a NEGATIVE in my mind. Without Jordan, as a team the Bulls had and almost exact same FG%..which goes to show that MJ really didn't contribute too much to the Bulls making more shots. Other players were just as capable of making their open shots as Jordan was of making his difficult shots.

[juju151111]

The reason they did so well the next year was first of all because the Bulls always played great defense so even with MJ gone they could still win games without his 30 a night. And Pippen was a great leader his season back then is the equivalent of Lebron's right now. So no Jordan is not overrated.
Why does every body forget to mention that they added tony and kerr.

[bruceblitz]

:oldlol: @ BruceBlitz not being able to stand Kobe trolls when he's exactly the same way with Michael....

Nope, I don't make excuses for Jordan's lack of production because I don't have to. I just show people how great he was, because, unlike most of you, I was old enough to watch his entire career. The Kobe trolls on the other hand make excuses, ignore his faults, and worship his balls.

3-2-1 swish!
http://picasion.com/pic9/23f5d589acaaf65a23a4c60f66fe967e.gif

[Sir Charles]

I lived the 90s era Jordan as a whole I was tired of listening to his dam name in the media 24 hrs a day :rolleyes: and tired of kids trying to emulate is 1 on 1...I Wanabee Like Mike Game in every playground ball game...etc (because there are other great players in other positions than can affect the game and other styes that should be more hyped etc) ....Yes he was a bit selfish initially in his career true and the passing game was not something he was born with but he developed greatly as a good passer.. etc

But I can tell you one thing regarding his game.

NOT OVERRATED AT ALL :no:.

[bruceblitz]

Who is this moron who keeps copying and pasting from some website?

I don't think this dude gets my point about Jordan..

Ball Hog. Which inflated his scoring statistics. I hold his scoring AGAINST HIM.

It's the reason I think the Bulls were almost as good without him. Because they were able to share the ball more, instead of one player being a ball hog and taking all the shots.

His scoring dominance is a NEGATIVE in my mind. Without Jordan, as a team the Bulls had and almost exact same FG%..which goes to show that MJ really didn't contribute too much to the Bulls making more shots. Other players were just as capable of making their open shots as Jordan was of making his difficult shots.

You must be an idiot. First of all, that's my homework that I posted in other threads on here, to other morons just like yourself. You jackass. You clearly didn't watch Michael Jordan and maybe you should try becoming a fan of the game of tennis or water polo if you think Jordan wasn't the greatest basketball player to ever play the game of basketball. Dumb ass mother ****er!

[juju151111]

Who is this moron who keeps copying and pasting from some website?

I don't think this dude gets my point about Jordan..

Ball Hog. Which inflated his scoring statistics. I hold his scoring AGAINST HIM.

It's the reason I think the Bulls were almost as good without him. Because they were able to share the ball more, instead of one player being a ball hog and taking all the shots.

His scoring dominance is a NEGATIVE in my mind. Without Jordan, as a team the Bulls had and almost exact same FG%..which goes to show that MJ really didn't contribute too much to the Bulls making more shots. Other players were just as capable of making their open shots as Jordan was of making his difficult shots.
LOL MJ avg 6 asts in his rookie season. The only year he was a ballhog was 87. I don't see ur point?

[Bush4Ever]

Who is this moron who keeps copying and pasting from some website?

I don't think this dude gets my point about Jordan..

Ball Hog. Which inflated his scoring statistics. I hold his scoring AGAINST HIM.

It's the reason I think the Bulls were almost as good without him. Because they were able to share the ball more, instead of one player being a ball hog and taking all the shots.

His scoring dominance is a NEGATIVE in my mind. Without Jordan, as a team the Bulls had and almost exact same FG%..which goes to show that MJ really didn't contribute too much to the Bulls making more shots. Other players were just as capable of making their open shots as Jordan was of making his difficult shots.


http://blog.infinitemonkeysblog.com/files/images/obvious_troll.preview.jpg

[DonDadda59]

Why does every body forget to mention that they added tony and kerr.

Exactly. The team was deeper than the '93 team. They added Luc Longley, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr while Jordan was swinging a bat. They overacheived for a season, lost in the second round. They lost Horace, were a .500 team before Jordan came back an carried them to the playoffs. They replaced Grant w/ Rodman and all Jordan could muster with this new roster was to lead them to the best record in the history of the league and another 3 straight championships (3 Finals MVPs to go along w/ them). He's overrated because the new squad won 2 less games then the '93 team? Well is he overrated for turning a 55-win second round team into a 72-win championship winner?

Yeah, they were so much better without him :roll:

[elementally morale]

Have you ever considered writing for ESPN?

[Sir Charles]

If your first point is true, then that's a good one. Source?

Win shares is calculated very similar to PER, and takes into account box score statistics to base its theories on. Not bad, but has many fallacies and I don't think it's a good representation of actual win shares..just well named.

Jordan was a BALL HOG, and therefore his statistics are inflated.

I would love to have a real adjusted plus/minus on Jordan's career. Unfortunetaly we don't have one.

Even though Jordan always had Great Defensive and All Around Teams 1988 and beyond (compared to other greats who didn`t like Barkley, early Garnett, and some others)...this is his...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1415

"statistical plus/minus,” which is just a regression of pure adjusted +/- on the conventional boxscore stats. In that post, I looked into the possibility of predicting the following season using a weighted average of the 3 previous seasons’ SPM scores, but I realize that I sort of skimmed over the statistical +/- metric itself — what are its strengths and weaknesses? What kind of players does it overrate and underrate?


In an effort to better understand the metric and answer these questions, I calculated the career leaders in SPM (combined NBA + ABA, minimum 15,000 career MP) through last Saturday’s games. Here’s the list:


Player Pos G Min SPM
---------------+--+----------+--------+------

michaeljordan G 1072 41013 12.85
wiltchamberlain C 1045 47859 11.59
davidrobinson C 987 34272 10.79
lebronjames F 444 18083 10.00
charlesbarkley F 1073 39330 9.03
k.abdul-jabbar C 1560 57446 9.01
magicjohnson G 906 33245 8.82
larrybird F 897 34443 8.81
juliuserving F 1243 45227 8.57
shaquilleo'neal C 1089 39103 8.21
bobpettit F 792 30690 7.87
clydedrexler G 1086 37537 7.79
oscarrobertson G 1040 43886 7.75
hakeemolajuwon C 1238 44222 7.70
elginbaylor F 846 33863 7.59
karlmalone F 1476 54852 7.50
andreikirilenko F 533 16671 7.37
timduncan F 877 32481 7.30
tracymcgrady F 784 27463 7.12
kevingarnett F 1051 39570 6.91
boblanier C 959 32103 6.24
kobebryant G 921 33584 6.22
jerrywest G 932 36571 6.17
bobbyjones F 941 25728 6.16
conniehawkins F 616 22232 6.08
dirknowitzki F 812 29663 5.97
neiljohnston C 516 18298 5.94
vincecarter G 752 28333 5.88
billrussell C 963 40726 5.85
larrynance F 920 30697 5.74
dolphschayes F 866 29800 5.65
johnstockton G 1504 47764 5.63
rickbarry F 1020 38153 5.56
waltfrazier G 825 30965 5.45
paulpierce F 788 29570 5.30
artisgilmore C 1329 47150 5.16
docrivers G 864 23567 5.16
alvinrobertson G 779 24669 5.13
d.wilkins F 1074 38113 5.10
billycunningham F 770 26844 5.09
scottiepippen F 1178 41069 4.97
booutlaw F 914 20750 4.91
eltonbrand F 643 24421 4.87
gilbertarenas G 431 16115 4.80
waltbellamy C 1043 38940 4.72
chriswebber F 831 30847 4.71
marquesjohnson F 691 23694 4.65
sidneymoncrief G 767 23150 4.60
rogerbrown F 605 21454 4.57
wesunseld C 984 35832 4.56
adriandantley F 955 34151 4.55
natemcmillan G 796 20462 4.53
jerrylucas F 829 32131 4.43
larryjones G 551 18956 4.43
fatlever G 752 23814 4.33
granthill F 759 27209 4.27
georgemcginnis F 842 28179 4.26
shawnmarion F 720 27136 4.23
m.r.richardson G 556 18589 4.22
eddiejones F 954 32777 4.21
barondavis G 649 22998 4.17
alleniverson G 880 36589 4.10
jasonkidd G 1081 40211 4.10
paugasol F 557 19806 4.10
alvanadams C 988 27203 4.04
johndrew F 739 21828 3.97
georgegervin G 1060 35597 3.87
cliffhagan F 839 24074 3.84
danissel C 1218 41784 3.82
harrygallatin F 496 15813 3.81
stevefrancis G 576 21632 3.79
patrickewing C 1183 40594 3.79
edmacauley C 506 18071 3.75
chaunceybillups G 810 25891 3.73
baileyhowell F 951 30627 3.70
benwallace C 897 27787 3.66
rayallen G 919 34244 3.65
reggiemiller G 1389 47621 3.61
brentbarry G 893 23447 3.61
vladedivac C 1134 33838 3.53
shanebattier F 591 19740 3.48
ronartest G 577 20024 3.45
garypayton G 1335 47117 3.44
mookieblaylock G 889 31026 3.34
bobmcadoo C 852 28327 3.32
cedricmaxwell F 835 23769 3.31
marcuscamby C 738 22742 3.30
jeffhornacek G 1077 33964 3.28
johnsalley F 748 16524 3.28
chrismullin F 986 32163 3.22
clydelovellette C 704 19075 3.20
markaguirre F 923 27730 3.18
mauricecheeks G 1101 34845 3.16
kevinmchale F 971 30118 3.10
kevinjohnson G 735 25061 3.10
jacksikma C 1107 36943 3.04
bradmiller C 684 20685 3.01
cliffordray C 784 19940 2.99
davidthompson G 592 19406 2.98
warrenjabali G 447 15264 2.98
alonzomourning C 838 25976 2.94
paulpressey G 724 19659 2.93
chrisbosh F 414 15341 2.91
georgeyardley F 472 15767 2.91
johnhavlicek F 1270 46471 2.90
vernmikkelsen F 567 18443 2.88
richkelley C 814 17711 2.88
williewise F 552 18438 2.87
davecowens C 766 29565 2.86
herseyhawkins G 983 32034 2.76
tomgola G 698 22529 2.76
jimeakins C 767 19013 2.73
pennyhardaway G 704 23713 2.70
danmajerle G 955 30206 2.69

[Jinxed]

Exactly. The team was deeper than the '93 team. They added Luc Longley, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr while Jordan was swinging a bat. They overacheived for a season, lost in the second round. They lost Horace, were a .500 team before Jordan came back an carried them to the playoffs. They replaced Grant w/ Rodman and all Jordan could muster with this new roster was to lead them to the best record in the history of the league and another 3 straight championships (3 Finals MVPs to go along w/ them). He's overrated because the new squad won 2 less games then the '93 team? Well is he overrated for turning a 55-win second tound team into a 72-win championship winner?

Yeah, they were so much better without him :roll:

In 1995-1996 they added RODMAN.. the best rebounder ...average 15 boards a game... That's unbelievable ..and one of the best defenders in the league.. Kukoc was just getting better and so was Kerr.

Kerr averaged 8ppg in 24 minutes in 1994 and and Toni average 10 in 24mpg in his rookie season. Not exactly stellar numbers. They were bench players, with Toni only starting 8 games and Kerr starting none.

[bruceblitz]

In 1995-1996 they added RODMAN.. the best rebounder ...average 15 boards a game... That's unbelievable ..and one of the best defenders in the league.. Kukoc was just getting better and so was Kerr.

Kerr averaged 8ppg in 24 minutes in 1994 and and Toni average 10 in 24mpg in his rookie season. Not exactly stellar numbers. They were bench players, with Toni only starting 8 games and Kerr starting none.
So according to your logic, Jordan's great scoring, greatest scorer ever, should have hindered the team, why didn't they win a title without him you flaming ******?

[Jinxed]

Sir Charles...


Statistical plus/minus is based on BOX SCORE STATS...and doesn't actually use plus/minus stats at all..as they weren't kept until recent years.

It's just an ESTIMATE of what adjusted plus/minus might look like if they kept it back then.. The authors freely admits there are many problems with it.

but Like i said Jordan's box score stats are inflated.

[GOBB]

You must be an idiot. First of all, that's my homework that I posted in other threads on here, to other morons just like yourself. You jackass. You clearly didn't watch Michael Jordan and maybe you should try becoming a fan of the game of tennis or water polo if you think Jordan wasn't the greatest basketball player to ever play the game of basketball. Dumb ass mother ****er!

1. Your .gif shows no "swish", so i guess like most of your argument wins its all in your head.

2. Why are you insulting the poster in such a manner? I mean i can point out other posts in this thread where you did it some more. Didnt you cry, complain when I responded to you in a similar manner? Hypocritical much?

3. Why are you so insecure about MJ's legacy. Its not even your legacy. MJ if he met you would tell you to relax because he feels he isnt the greatest to ever play. While the reach around by you is a great feel. He feels he is one of the best to ever do it. His words. I'm sure you'll play Dr. Phil and tell us what he meant inside. Copy and paste that too or you'll pass?

4. Guy is an obvious troll here to rile people like you up. He won, you lost. The more you reply and celebrating victories "I shut down your thread!" the more you look like an idiot. Maybe you could take your own advice and get a life? Stop taking ISH so serious? This is just me throwing back your advice at you. Its funny how posters here type things and NEVER apply it to themselves. You should try it, maybe you arent here posting .gifs claiming you hit a buzzer beater because you defeated a troll.

[bruceblitz]

In 1995-1996 they added RODMAN.. the best rebounder ...average 15 boards a game... That's unbelievable ..and one of the best defenders in the league.. Kukoc was just getting better and so was Kerr.

Kerr averaged 8ppg in 24 minutes in 1994 and and Toni average 10 in 24mpg in his rookie season. Not exactly stellar numbers. They were bench players, with Toni only starting 8 games and Kerr starting none.
http://msp85.photobucket.com/albums/k59/Krownedklown/middle_finger_flame_jpg_w300h300.jpg

[bruceblitz]

1. Your .gif shows no "swish", so i guess like most of your argument wins its all in your head.

2. Why are you insulting the poster in such a manner? I mean i can point out other posts in this thread where you did it some more. Didnt you cry, complain when I responded to you in a similar manner? Hypocritical much?

3. Why are you so insecure about MJ's legacy. Its not even your legacy. MJ if he met you would tell you to relax because he feels he isnt the greatest to ever play. While the reach around by you is a great feel. He feels he is one of the best to ever do it. His words. I'm sure you'll play Dr. Phil and tell us what he meant inside. Copy and paste that too or you'll pass?

4. Guy is an obvious troll here to rile people like you up. He won, you lost. The more you reply and celebrating victories "I shut down your thread!" the more you look like an idiot. Maybe you could take your own advice and get a life? Stop taking ISH so serious? This is just me throwing back your advice at you. Its funny how posters here type things and NEVER apply it to themselves. You should try it, maybe you arent here posting .gifs claiming you hit a buzzer beater because you defeated a troll.
http://msp85.photobucket.com/albums/k59/Krownedklown/middle_finger_flame_jpg_w300h300.jpg

[Jinxed]

So according to your logic, Jordan's great scoring, greatest scorer ever, should have hindered the team, why didn't they win a title without him you flaming ******?


Overall it was a SLIGHT positive...as in a few game difference...but the Bulls probably would have been even better if Jordan scored in the 25 point range and took about 5-6 less shots a game. He took an incredible amount of difficult shots, shots that he should have passed on and let his teammates take.

[nbastatus]

1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16, not 10 as was falsely posted.

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986
(1st ranked D)

1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988
(5th ranked D)

1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989
(2cnd ranked D)

1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990
(19th ranked D)

1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991
(14th ranked D)

1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992
(24th ranked D)

1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993
(9th ranked D)

1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995
(9th ranked D)

1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996
(3rd ranked D)

1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997
(13th ranked D)

1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998
(16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES SERIES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
Even more important, Jordan was the main target of these defenses the ENTIRE TIME.


69 Cleveland OT Cleveland 3/28/90
64 Orlando OT Chicago 1/16/93
63 Boston 2OT Boston (Playoffs) * 4/20/86 against #1 rated defense that year
Jordan has the highest point total against a #1 rated defense in league history
in the playoffs no less
61 Detroit OT Detroit 3/4/87
61 Atlanta Chicago 4/16/87
59 Detroit Detroit 3/3/88
58 New Jersey Chicago 2/6/87
57 Washington Chicago 12/23/92
56 Philadelphia Chicago 3/24/87
56 Miami Miami (Playoffs) 4/29/92
55 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/1/88
55 Phoenix Chicago (Playoffs) 6/16/93
55 New York New York 3/28/95
55 Washington Washington (Playoffs) 4/30/97
54 L.A. Lakers Los Angeles 11/20/92
54 Cleveland Chicago 11/3/89
54 New York Chicago (Playoffs) 5/31/93
53 Portland Chicago 1/8/87
53 Indiana Chicago 4/12/87
53 Phoenix Chicago 1/21/89
53 Detroit Chicago 3/7/96
52 Cleveland Chicago 12/17/87
52 Portland Chicago 2/26/88
52 Boston Boston 11/9/88
52 Philadelphia Philadelphia 11/16/88
52 Denver Denver 11/26/88
52 Orlando Orlando 12/20/89
52 Charlotte Chicago 3/12/93
51 New Orleans Washington 12/29/01
51 Washington Washington 3/19/92
51 New York Chicago 1/21/97
50 New York New York 11/1/86
50 Milwaukee Milwaukee 4/13/87
50 Boston Chicago 3/18/88
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 4/28/88
50 Milwaukee Chicago 2/16/89
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/5/89
50 Denver Chicago 3/24/92
50 Miami Miami 11/6/96
Those are Jordan's 50 point games, notice how many of them came in the PLAYOFFS. Notice how many came against great defenses and great teams. Also Jordan was the main focus of each defense he faced. That's very important.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career. Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[nbastatus]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles]Even though Jordan always had Great Defensive and All Around Teams 1988 and beyond (compared to other greats who didn`t like Barkley, early Garnett, and some others)...this is his...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1415

[B]"statistical plus/minus,

[Mark Jackson]

1. Your .gif shows no "swish", so i guess like most of your argument wins its all in your head.

2. Why are you insulting the poster in such a manner? I mean i can point out other posts in this thread where you did it some more. Didnt you cry, complain when I responded to you in a similar manner? Hypocritical much?

3. Why are you so insecure about MJ's legacy. Its not even your legacy. MJ if he met you would tell you to relax because he feels he isnt the greatest to ever play. While the reach around by you is a great feel. He feels he is one of the best to ever do it. His words. I'm sure you'll play Dr. Phil and tell us what he meant inside. Copy and paste that too or you'll pass?

4. Guy is an obvious troll here to rile people like you up. He won, you lost. The more you reply and celebrating victories "I shut down your thread!" the more you look like an idiot. Maybe you could take your own advice and get a life? Stop taking ISH so serious? This is just me throwing back your advice at you. Its funny how posters here type things and NEVER apply it to themselves. You should try it, maybe you arent here posting .gifs claiming you hit a buzzer beater because you defeated a troll.

Talk about an reality check. Straight ether on that guy.:applause:

[ProfessorMurder]

Why I think the OP is a retard:

He thinks Jordan, the best player to ever play the game of basketball... Is overrated!

You stupid f*ck.

[iamgine]

http://shaunmusco.com/images/Printed/D/Deja_Vu.jpg

[Sir Charles]

nice numbers.

Strange it is that Jordan is in the Top in Statistical +/- and PER for Play-Offs and Season and Top 10 EFF with no Minute Pace Basis :confusedshrug: Still people think they can compare Kobe to him?
:roll: :hammerhead: :banghead:

People should not argue Players in the Top 10 In EFF, PER, Statistical +/- all whom have watched the game know IMPACT right when we see it.

Kobe`s Impact is No Where Near the Level of the Top 15-20 Greatest Players

Kobe is around the Top 20-25 and Jordan was better than Kobe in ABSOLUTLEY ALL ASPECTS OF THE GAME...Except Maybe Pure Shooting and 3-Point Shooting.

1 on 1 Driving to the Basket = Jordan
Athletic Capacity: Speed-Agility-Strength-Potence-Leap = Jordan!
Post Game= Jordan
Game Creating = Jordan (made it easier for wide open teamates)
Ball Hadling = Jordan
Defense Concetration, Double Teaming, Hard Fouls On a Player= Jordan
Numbers of TImes on the FT line = Jordan
Passing = Jordan
Rebounding = Jordan
Clutchness = Jordan (when i mean clutchness i don`t only mean scoring the last second bucket but having monster ALL AROUND Games)
Agressiveness and Will to Win = Jordan
Energy, Stamina, = Jordan


Players in the Top 10 In Everything Can`t be Discussed!:violin:

When has Kobe been the Lead Assist Man in his Team while being the Focal Scorer, Best Perimeter 1 on 1 Defender, Best Stealer?
When has Kobe Shot a 50% FG Season or Play-Offs?
When has Kobe had Big All Round Stat Games like Jordan? Points, FG%, Assists, Rebounds, Steals, Blocks...Shutting Down 1 on 1 Defense?


Jordan scared people...In MANY ASPECTS OF THE GAME...Kobe only sacres you as a Streak Shooter Scorer...


With the New Puss Rules. "Don`t Handcheck Me Please...Don`t Touch Me...Don`t Slap Me when I Drive Pleasee"

:violin:

[d-wade2923]

this thread is a joke

[ProfessorMurder]

Hey remember that time when Kobe played the Rockets with a sore throat? Man, he was so brave... Even when he lost.

But he had a sore throat. You can't expect someone to win with that hanging over their day.

Just walking with a sore throat is tough enough. I can't tell you how many times I've just stayed in bed and cried all day because my throat hurt.

You know, Kobe really is the greatest.

:bowdown:

(Joke.)

[Sir Charles]

Hey remember that time when Kobe played the Rockets with a sore throat? Man, he was so brave... Even when he lost.

But he had a sore throat. You can't expect someone to win with that hanging over their day.

Just walking with a sore throat is tough enough. I can't tell you how many times I've just stayed in bed and cried all day because my throat hurt.

You know, Kobe really is the greatest.

:bowdown:

(Joke.)

:roll: :applause:

Back in the 80s and 90s players played with real pain

Bird played with ****ed up fingers and dislocated wrist in the 87 finals...

Take a look at Barkley knee brace vs the Buls in the 1991 E.C.S it was bigger than the baggy pants they use today!!!....

He also played with an injured elbow (take a look at the pad) for most of the 1993 Finals and never said one word....

It was the Common back then it was a MAN`s League...No Highshoolers Allowed!..:violin:

[zabuza666]

:roll: :applause:

Back in the 80s and 90s players played with real pain

Bird played with ****ed up fingers and dislocated wrist in the 87 finals...

Take a look at Barkley knee brace vs the Buls in the 1991 E.C.S it was bigger than the baggy pants they use today!!!....

He also played with an injured elbow (take a look at the pad) for most of the 1993 Finals and never said one word....

It was the Common back then it was a MAN`s League...No Highshoolers Allowed!..:violin:

Then why don't you build a time machine and go and live there permanently? Jesus man shut the **** up.

[mattreis62]

If anything, the 93-94 Bulls season proved that Pippen was underrated, not that Jordan was overrated.

[sekachu]

If Lebron James were to get injured this off-season or go play baseball, how many games do you think the Cavaliers would win next year....think about it for a second...40? 45 tops? What if the Heat didn't have Wade? or the Hornets didn't have CP3...how many less games would these teams win next year? Surely about 15-20 right? Agree with me so far?

Well in 1992-1993 the Chicago Bulls won the NBA title. They went 57-25. After the season Jordan left to go play baseball.

The next year without Jordan, the Chicago Bulls went 55-27. That's only two less games they won! The only major addition they had to their team was Toni Kukoc, who averaged 10 points in 24mpg as a rookie.

In the playoffs they would lose to the Knicks in 7 games. Who in turn lost to the Rockets in 7 games. They were a championship level team, a rebound here and a foul call there that would have gone their way and they may just have won it all.

Jordan had an AMAZING supporting cast for all his championship runs.

In 1996 when he came back for the full season, they also added Rodman..giving them four all star level players ..jordan,pippen,rodman and kukoc to go along with perfect roll players and the best coach in the game.

There is a psychological principle that states the more times you here someone's name, the more you will like them. The more times you hear Jordan the better you think he is. Jordan was the first huge marketing revelation in the NBA with Nike and Gatorade and at a time when the game was going global. His name, face and image were everywhere, at an unprecedented level, and this added to his mystique and made people think he was better than he was.

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, he was. I'm not even saying he wasn't the best ever. He may have been. All I'm saying is that I don't think he's as good as everyone thinks he was.


first, i always believe 93 year bulls could able to win 65-67 games if they aimed for it, but you know that is not their main target, so you really think they were trying their best in 93? i dont find surprise the 94 bulls were able to win 55 games because i am sure they were much more motivated and putting their best effort more than in 93. what happened when MJ returned? they won 72 games in 96, because the bulls were motiviated again, MJ also was motivated to prove he is still the best, it is all about motivation. without Jordan, the bulls is still a decent team. with Jordan, they are the champion team.

[NuggetsFan]

No he was not:pimp:

[BRINKER]

In a way the OP is right, anyone who is successful and popular is always going to have a large contingent of fans who overrate him, regardless of how good he was. If he was good, they'll say he was great. If he was great, they'll say he was God. It's inevitable that every succesful/popular "star" will become overrated in some aspects.

[Soundwave]

The 93-94 Bulls IMO had a bit of an inflated record because a lot of teams took them lightly once Jordan retired.

The 1996 Bulls also lost Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong, so its not like they just added Rodman and Kukoc without losing anyone.

And Kukoc honestly was never an All-Star caliber player in the NBA.

The 92-93 Bulls were a team that was tired of the regular season grind and simply wanted to get to the playoffs so they could three-peat.

[godofgods]

Jordan was overrated until Kobe came to the league. Kobe took overratedness to another level.

[2LeTTeRS]

Who is this moron who keeps copying and pasting from some website?

I don't think this dude gets my point about Jordan..

Ball Hog. Which inflated his scoring statistics. I hold his scoring AGAINST HIM.

It's the reason I think the Bulls were almost as good without him. Because they were able to share the ball more, instead of one player being a ball hog and taking all the shots.

His scoring dominance is a NEGATIVE in my mind. Without Jordan, as a team the Bulls had and almost exact same FG%..which goes to show that MJ really didn't contribute too much to the Bulls making more shots. Other players were just as capable of making their open shots as Jordan was of making his difficult shots.

So one year with a the team playing over their heads and winning 55 games with 3 an experienced where everybody had career year (followed by a season where the team was set to go .500 before MJ returned) is more important than 6 titles in 8 years? Ok.

[gpfanz]

Jordan was overrated until Kobe came to the league. Kobe took overratedness to another level.

Yessirrrrrr :cheers:

[phoenix18]

Jordan is overrated a little. People actually think that most of the things he did on the court that no one did it before him. He is one of the top five players ever, but where you put him is your decision. The greatest basketball player in my book is Oscar Robertson.

[Da_Realist]

1. The Bulls coasted for much of the 1993 regular season, while the 1994 Bulls played balls-to-the-wall for the entire regular season. This is fairly well documented.

2. The Bulls were approximately a .500 team in 1995 before Jordan came on board. Not great.

Jordan led the NBA in win shares virtually every year of his prime. There is a reason for that.

This ^^ and


Exactly. The team was deeper than the '93 team. They added Luc Longley, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr while Jordan was swinging a bat. They overacheived for a season, lost in the second round. They lost Horace, were a .500 team before Jordan came back an carried them to the playoffs. They replaced Grant w/ Rodman and all Jordan could muster with this new roster was to lead them to the best record in the history of the league and another 3 straight championships (3 Finals MVPs to go along w/ them). He's overrated because the new squad won 2 less games then the '93 team? Well is he overrated for turning a 55-win second round team into a 72-win championship winner?

Yeah, they were so much better without him :roll:

this ^^ and


The 93-94 Bulls IMO had a bit of an inflated record because a lot of teams took them lightly once Jordan retired.

The 1996 Bulls also lost Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong, so its not like they just added Rodman and Kukoc without losing anyone.

And Kukoc honestly was never an All-Star caliber player in the NBA.

The 92-93 Bulls were a team that was tired of the regular season grind and simply wanted to get to the playoffs so they could three-peat.

this. ^^ :pimp:

[Roundball_Rock]

If anything, the 93-94 Bulls season proved that Pippen was underrated, not that Jordan was overrated.

Exactly! Pippen is underrated and sadly many Bulls fans trash what he achieved in 1994 in a misguided belief that crediting the 94' Pippen Bulls somehow detracts from MJ's case as the GOAT.


The 93-94 Bulls IMO had a bit of an inflated record because a lot of teams took them lightly once Jordan retired.

Perhaps, but in order to believe that you have to believe NBA coaches and players are very dumb. The 94' Bulls were 4-6 without Pippen but when Pippen returned they went on a streak of winning 14 of their next 15 games. Who could doubt the elite status of the 94' Bulls at that point?


The 1996 Bulls also lost Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong, so its not like they just added Rodman and Kukoc without losing anyone.

Grant left after 1994. The 1995-96 Bulls were a far superior squad to the 1994-95 edition. The chief weakness of the 1995 team was rebounding and a lack of interior defense. In the off season the team acquired the absolute best remedy for those weaknesses: Dennis Rodman, arguably the GOAT rebounder and one of the best interior defenders ever. The 96' team also featured a Michael Jordan without the rust who had a full off season to prepare as opposed to the rusty 95' MJ.

[Floppy]

He took an incredible amount of difficult shots, shots that he should have passed on and let his teammates take.

That's total bull****.

[tontoz]

Who is this moron who keeps copying and pasting from some website?

I don't think this dude gets my point about Jordan..

Ball Hog. Which inflated his scoring statistics. I hold his scoring AGAINST HIM.



If Jordan was such a ball hog then why did he shoot such a higher percentage than Kobe?

[catch24]

If Jordan was such a ball hog then why did he shoot such a higher percentage than Kobe?

A higher pecentage than LeBron as well :)

[Jinxed]

Why does everyone keep talking about Lebron and Kobe???

this has nothing to do with them, I am neither a Lebron or Kobe fan, in fact I despise Kobe.

This is about MJ being overrated compared to himself. Nothing to do with anyone else.

[indiefan23]

If Lebron James were to get injured this off-season or go play baseball, how many games do you think the Cavaliers would win next year....think about it for a second...40? 45 tops? What if the Heat didn't have Wade? or the Hornets didn't have CP3...how many less games would these teams win next year? Surely about 15-20 right? Agree with me so far?

Well in 1992-1993 the Chicago Bulls won the NBA title. They went 57-25. After the season Jordan left to go play baseball.

The next year without Jordan, the Chicago Bulls went 55-27. That's only two less games they won! The only major addition they had to their team was Toni Kukoc, who averaged 10 points in 24mpg as a rookie.

In the playoffs they would lose to the Knicks in 7 games. Who in turn lost to the Rockets in 7 games. They were a championship level team, a rebound here and a foul call there that would have gone their way and they may just have won it all.

Jordan had an AMAZING supporting cast for all his championship runs.

In 1996 when he came back for the full season, they also added Rodman..giving them four all star level players ..jordan,pippen,rodman and kukoc to go along with perfect roll players and the best coach in the game.

There is a psychological principle that states the more times you here someone's name, the more you will like them. The more times you hear Jordan the better you think he is. Jordan was the first huge marketing revelation in the NBA with Nike and Gatorade and at a time when the game was going global. His name, face and image were everywhere, at an unprecedented level, and this added to his mystique and made people think he was better than he was.

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, he was. I'm not even saying he wasn't the best ever. He may have been. All I'm saying is that I don't think he's as good as everyone thinks he was.

I dunno, Jordan's team that won vs Barkley's would beat the living crap out of Wade's or Lebron's. What you're really talking about is how truly amazing and great Scotti Pippen was. As Jordan's #2 he was better then most franchise players. He was widely considered the 2'nd best player in the league at the time. By the time he had won 3 championships defending Jordan in practice every day you can see why. Toni wasn't a crap player either. I really like to use the 'put a random player on the team' theory a lot and its a big reason Jordan didn't win MVP for the entire 90's. But all time, no one beat Jordan. The man was more intense and psychotic then KG.

I don't really think Jordan was the best ever because he won championships in any case. I think its because he mentally destroyed the entire league's confidence long before he started to win. Everyone knew no one could stop him and any win they had against him was mostly due to luck on their part that he didn't play his best game. Thats why he's the best. Rings are the most useless way to compare players that's a weak sports writer has ever come up with in history.

[catch24]

Why does everyone keep talking about Lebron and Kobe???

this has nothing to do with them, I am neither a Lebron or Kobe fan, in fact I despise Kobe.

This is about MJ being overrated compared to himself. Nothing to do with anyone else.

6 championships, 6 Finals MVPS, 5 regular season MVP, highest ppg average in the playoffs at 30ppg. Definitely not overrated wee one.

[2LeTTeRS]

So one year with a the team playing over their heads and winning 55 games with 3 an experienced where everybody had career year (followed by a season where the team was set to go .500 before MJ returned) is more important than 6 titles in 8 years? Ok.

Quoted so my post is actually visible.

[Roundball_Rock]

What you're really talking about is how truly amazing and great Scotti Pippen was. As Jordan's #2 he was better then most franchise players.

Pippen was a franchise player himself. He had one full season in his prime without Michael Jordan. What did he do? He was 3rd in MVP voting (he should have won it--his team was on pace for 33 wins and the lottery without him, it was on pace for 58 wins and the #1 seed with him), 4th in PER, 4th in DPOY voting, first team All-NBA, first team All-Defense, all-star game MVP, 2nd in steals, 7th in defensive rating, 8th in defensive win shares*, 9th in win shares*, 8th in scoring, 19th in assists, and 23rd in rebounding. In 1994-95 his numbers generally dipped (except on defensive where he was #1 in defensive rating, #2 in defensive win shares, and #1 in steals) but that was because his offensive numbers nosedived in the final fifth of the season when Jordan returned. Prior to that he was basically matching his 1993-94 numbers (i.e. 22.0 ppg in 94', 21.8 in 95' before MJ returned). Scottie Pippen is criminally underrated due to playing in the shadow of the GOAT.

*he would have been higher but he missed one-seventh of the season due to injury (during which his team went 4-6. When Pippen returned they proceeded to win 14 of 15 games!). Extrapolating for a full season he would have been #3 in defensive win shares, and #3 in overall win shares

[iggy>]

u cant be a gunner when your shooting over 50% from the field.

[indiefan23]

*he would have been higher but he missed one-seventh of the season due to injury (during which his team went 4-6. When Pippen returned they proceeded to win 14 of 15 games!). Extrapolating for a full season he would have been #3 in defensive win shares, and #3 in overall win shares

I don't like win shares at all... or plus minus. Silly stat. But yes... Pippen is criminally under rated. There is a very very short list of players I'd pick before pippen. Its like, Magic. Bird. Maybe Bron. Maybe Isiah. No, I take Pippen over Isiah. I honestly might take him over Bird and Magic depending on who I was going to have on my team. It can often be easier to find your #1 player then the guy who's going to be able and willing to fill in all the gaps. I think Pippen understood how important being that guy was. Some days I like Pippen way more then Jordan to be honest. Jordan was better, but I think he was just as important to those Bulls teams in any case.

[phoenix18]

I don't like win shares at all... or plus minus. Silly stat. But yes... Pippen is criminally under rated. There is a very very short list of players I'd pick before pippen. Its like, Magic. Bird. Maybe Bron. Maybe Isiah. No, I take Pippen over Isiah. I honestly might take him over Bird and Magic depending on who I was going to have on my team. It can often be easier to find your #1 player then the guy who's going to be able and willing to fill in all the gaps. I think Pippen understood how important being that guy was. Some days I like Pippen way more then Jordan to be honest. Jordan was better, but I think he was just as important to those Bulls teams in any case.
Pippen is very underrated and is one the greatest players ever because he could do it all.

[tontoz]

Why does everyone keep talking about Lebron and Kobe???

this has nothing to do with them, I am neither a Lebron or Kobe fan, in fact I despise Kobe.

This is about MJ being overrated compared to himself. Nothing to do with anyone else.

:oldlol:

It isn't possible to be overrated, underrated or even rated at all in comparison with himself. The only way he can be rated at all is to be compared with other players.

rocket scientist

[Mdog1]

Yes MJ has become vastly over rated. People think he is the GOAT because they see big scoring numbers and say ohhhh shinny. I personally think that MJ is the GOAT, but it is not because he was a dynamite scorer. Scoring IMO is the single most over rated part of the game. MJ is the GOAT because of his combination of skills. He is the greatest scorer, he is one of the best defenders, a good rebounder and passer for his position, and was of course a winner. Also his way of changing the game makes him the GOAT to me.

MJ is the GOAT because he is a combination of all aspects of the game. LeBron James however will be the GOAT because of this same thing. He is already proven to make team mates better, he is a great scorer, great passer, and he is a good rebounder. Now that his D is finally getting to such a high level that he is comparable to anyone including Pippen he is inching closer to being the GOAT.

[Batman]

Yes MJ has become vastly over rated. People think he is the GOAT because they see big scoring numbers and say ohhhh shinny. I personally think that MJ is the GOAT, but it is not because he was a dynamite scorer. Scoring IMO is the single most over rated part of the game. MJ is the GOAT because of his combination of skills. He is the greatest scorer, he is one of the best defenders, a good rebounder and passer for his position, and was of course a winner. Also his way of changing the game makes him the GOAT to me.

MJ is the GOAT because he is a combination of all aspects of the game. LeBron James however will be the GOAT because of this same thing. He is already proven to make team mates better, he is a great scorer, great passer, and he is a good rebounder. Now that his D is finally getting to such a high level that he is comparable to anyone including Pippen he is inching closer to being the GOAT.


LeBron will never be better than Jordan.

Jordan= GOAT FOREVER

[indiefan23]

Yes MJ has become vastly over rated. People think he is the GOAT because they see big scoring numbers and say ohhhh shinny. I personally think that MJ is the GOAT, but it is not because he was a dynamite scorer. Scoring IMO is the single most over rated part of the game. MJ is the GOAT because of his combination of skills. He is the greatest scorer, he is one of the best defenders, a good rebounder and passer for his position, and was of course a winner. Also his way of changing the game makes him the GOAT to me.

MJ is the GOAT because he is a combination of all aspects of the game. LeBron James however will be the GOAT because of this same thing. He is already proven to make team mates better, he is a great scorer, great passer, and he is a good rebounder. Now that his D is finally getting to such a high level that he is comparable to anyone including Pippen he is inching closer to being the GOAT.

Agreed. But LBJ is no where near the jock of pippen on D.

[andgar923]

LeBron will never be better than Jordan.

Jordan= GOAT FOREVER

Nothing is forever.

[Mdog1]

LeBron will never be better than Jordan.

Jordan= GOAT FOREVER
Jordan in his own words said that he will be the GOAT until someone in a 6'8" body that could do all of the things he can do comes along. That someone could be LeBron James if he lives up to his potential. He is not even close to the player he could be.

[Mdog1]

Agreed. But LBJ is no where near the jock of pippen on D.
In todays rules Pippen would not be nearly as good as he was defensively. That is not to take away any thing from him, but without the hand checks and constant bumps and pushes he would not be as effective.

[tastystaci]

There is a very very short list of players I'd pick before pippen. Its like, Magic. Bird. Maybe Bron. Maybe Isiah. No, I take Pippen over Isiah. I honestly might take him over Bird and Magic depending on who I was going to have on my team.


Completely disagree. Isiah played on a severely sprained ankle in game 6 of the '88 Finals...Pippen did this --

According to Andrea Kramer, an ESPN reporter, who was beside the Bulls' bench at this time with a cameraman, quoted Pippen as issuing and expletive and then saying, "I'm tired of this." And Pippen then sat down.

Some of the other players said, "Pip, come on, get up, what are you doing?"

He refused to come back in the game. Since the Bulls only were sending four men on the court, Jackson had to call a second timeout.

Jackson sent in Pete Myers in place of Pippen. Myers passed the ball to Kukoc, who bounced off his man, Anthony Mason, and then sank a 22-foot shot at the buzzer to give the Bulls a stunning 104-102 victory.

It was the fourth time this season that Kukoc has made a long shot to win a game at the buzzer.

[lolwut]

thread should be titled

"Why I'm retarded."

[Batman]

Jordan in his own words said that he will be the GOAT until someone in a 6'8" body that could do all of the things he can do comes along. That someone could be LeBron James if he lives up to his potential. He is not even close to the player he could be.

LeBron can't do all the things Jordan did. When LeBron wins a championship come talk to me.

[Mdog1]

LeBron can't do all the things Jordan did. When LeBron wins a championship come talk to me.
See you in a months time then.

[Mdog1]

thread should be titled

"Why I'm retarded."
Why is that exactly? He is correct to an extent. MJ has become so vastly over rated by the media and the casual NBa fan that internet posters make it seem he is untouchable as a player when in fact he is not even close to untouchable and that the door he closed isn't fully closed. MJ is the GOAT, but not for very long. There will be a time when the next one gets a few rings and then he will no longer be the GOAT because of the "weak" competition.

[gyu]

Simple answer:

You think he is overrated because you never watched him play.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What you're really talking about is how truly amazing and great Scotti Pippen was. As Jordan's #2 he was better then most franchise players. He was widely considered the 2'nd best player in the league at the time.

Uhh, no. Pippen was never top 2, even in 1994 (his best season) when Hakeem/Shaq/DRob at a minimum were better (and then you have Barkley and Malone). He was top 5 for about 4 seasons or so (definitely '94-'96, and possibly '93 and '97), but never was he considered the second best player in the league.

[juju151111]

In todays rules Pippen would not be nearly as good as he was defensively. That is not to take away any thing from him, but without the hand checks and constant bumps and pushes he would not be as effective.
:lol :lol Pippen has great lateral movement and he was the goat help defender. Help defense doesn't really have anything to do with handchecking and you couldn't bumb a guy back then either. iT WAS A FOUL.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan is overrated a little. People actually think that most of the things he did on the court that no one did it before him

I don't think you appreciate how much Jordan changed the game, and how many moves he invented/popularized/perfected. For instance, virtually the entire modern wing player footwork repertoire can be credited to Jordan. And that's just one area.

[Mdog1]

:lol :lol Pippen has great lateral movement and he was the goat help defender. Help defense doesn't really have anything to do with handchecking and you couldn't bumb a guy back then either. iT WAS A FOUL.
Oh so then defense wasn't more physical? Ok good to know that the era was so much weaker.

[gts]

Jordan is the GOAT. Period.

1981 Breaks record at McDonald's All-American game by scoring 30 points

1982= hits game winner for North Carolina, jumps into pass lane on defense forcing Sleepy Floyd to turn the ball over to James Worthy.

1983 = UNC choked in the NCAA tourney despite having the #2 seed, not Jordan

1984 = 1984 Named college Player of the Year. 1984 Wins Olympic gold medal as the leader of the U.S. basketball team. UNC choked again in the sweet 16 despite having the #1 seed, not Jordan

1985 = joined Chicago, who only won 27 games the year before, and led the franchise to 38 games and the playoff's. 1985 Named NBA Rookie of the Year.

1986 = Took the Celtics to a 3rd game rubber match, (yes kids only 3 game series at that point in NBA history), scored 63 points on the team that went on to win the championship that year, the Celtics were the #1 rated defense in the NBA, Jordan took them to their limit, despite Orlando Woolridge shooing 9-27 in the game, Jordan still kept the Bulls in it.

1987 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 48.2%(37.1ppg) of his shot attempts, Winner Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA Defensive Player of the Year, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named to the All-NBA First Team, back in the playoffs again. Jordan averaged over 40 points per game for over half of this season.

1988 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.5% of his shot attempts, Wins Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, Pippen was still developing, the help around Jordan was limited, lost to the eventual world champs in the playoffs, still got them to the playoffs

1989 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.8% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Jordan and his teammates had a decent showing against the Pistons, Jordan did everything he could, the cast around him hadn't developed enough to beat a stacked team like Detroit.

1990 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 52.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Once again ran into the Detroit buzzsaw, but still led the Bulls to the playoffs.

1991 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Chicago Bulls to their first NBA title. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy.

1992 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 51.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Wins Olympic gold medal with U.S. basketball team, leads bulls to back-to-back titles. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor.

1993 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads bulls to their 3rd straight championship, In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, an NBA finals record which has never been threatened.

1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

1996 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player. Leads Bulls to their 4th championship of Jordan's career as leader of the team. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. (Dennis Rodman, great defender, even though Gary Payton beat him out for defensive player of the year award and Dennis Rodman's prime was in the 80's, Rodman was a liability on offense, still contributed with defense and rebounding.)

1997 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 48.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Bulls to 5th championship as the leader of the team, In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

1998 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 46.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, led Bulls to 6th championship as leader of the team, In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

-Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards


2001 - 02 = MJ comes out of retirement to play for the Wizards, Jordan was 8 years removed from his prime.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career.
Doug Collins decided to move Jordan to the point guard spot against Seattle on March 11, 1989. He finished that game with 15 assists. Two days later, he had a game of 21/14/14 against the Pacers in just 30 minutes of playing time in a 32-point blowout win. He reached the triple double mark in just 21 minutes. Jordan continued to play at the PG spot until the end of the season. In these 24 games he averaged 29.3ppg, 8.9rpg, 10.6 apg, 2.4spg. Between March 24 and April 14, 1989, he recorded a triple double in ten of the eleven games, including seven consecutive ones. In the game he didn't record a triple double, he finished with 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds. The hands down greatest of all time, anyone disputing this is a misinformed individual.

Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.

I just shut down your thread! fixed

[Jinxed]

Isiah isn't top 50 all time. Vastly overrated. Read this...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1986

"He was good. Not great."

for stockton vs. isiah

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441

Isiah had a career PER of 18.1..which would have put him just below Andre Miller this year and just above Ramon Sessions



..in his best year 1984..he had a PER of 22.2

Contrast that with Chris Paul..who had a PER of 30.0 this year..

but then again..it's a lot easier for Guards now...

[juju151111]

Oh so then defense wasn't more physical? Ok good to know that the era was so much weaker.
no You couldn't bumb because it was a blocking foul. They just didn't call every tick tack foul. Watch college BB to see wat i am talking about. Aslo watch this video of MJ START AT 3:21 HE STARTS THE PASSING HIGHLIGHTS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55n75MXOJ28&feature=channel_page

[Alpha Wolf]

Jordan myths exposed:

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm
Jordan did not carry a bunch of marginal role players to 6 championships - The Bulls were a very, very good team with or without Michael Jordan. The argument I present proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Jordan simply wasn't as valuable as his friends in the media would like to make him out to be.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/supportingcast.htm
Jordan does not make those around him better - Dismantling the myth. He played with very good teammates who did just fine without him.


http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/defense.htm
Jordan was an overrated defender - From 1996-98, Jordan had no business being named to the all-defensie team.


Examples of Jordan being over-hyped by the media:

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/college.htm
Jordan in college - a perfect example of media hype. He didn't "lead" Carolina to a title. When he did lead the team, they choked.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/athlete.htm
Jordan - the greatest athlete ever? Proof that ESPN's list was biased and ignorant.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/hype.htm
The 1988 dunk contest - Even when Jordan loses, he wins.




no matter what criteria is used, Michael Jordan is not the greatest player ever. He maybe #2, #20, or #2000, but he is not #1.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Jordan myths exposed:

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm
Jordan did not carry a bunch of marginal role players to 6 championships - The Bulls were a very, very good team with or without Michael Jordan. The argument I present proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Jordan simply wasn't as valuable as his friends in the media would like to make him out to be.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/supportingcast.htm
Jordan does not make those around him better - Dismantling the myth. He played with very good teammates who did just fine without him.


http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/defense.htm
Jordan was an overrated defender - From 1996-98, Jordan had no business being named to the all-defensie team.


Examples of Jordan being over-hyped by the media:

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/college.htm
Jordan in college - a perfect example of media hype. He didn't "lead" Carolina to a title. When he did lead the team, they choked.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/athlete.htm
Jordan - the greatest athlete ever? Proof that ESPN's list was biased and ignorant.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/hype.htm
The 1988 dunk contest - Even when Jordan loses, he wins.




no matter what criteria is used, Michael Jordan is not the greatest player ever. He maybe #2, #20, or #2000, but he is not #1.

#1 being.....????
there is only one name you can say, imo.

[Duncan21formvp]

If Lebron James were to get injured this off-season or go play baseball, how many games do you think the Cavaliers would win next year....think about it for a second...40? 45 tops? What if the Heat didn't have Wade? or the Hornets didn't have CP3...how many less games would these teams win next year? Surely about 15-20 right? Agree with me so far?

Well in 1992-1993 the Chicago Bulls won the NBA title. They went 57-25. After the season Jordan left to go play baseball.

The next year without Jordan, the Chicago Bulls went 55-27. That's only two less games they won! The only major addition they had to their team was Toni Kukoc, who averaged 10 points in 24mpg as a rookie.

In the playoffs they would lose to the Knicks in 7 games. Who in turn lost to the Rockets in 7 games. They were a championship level team, a rebound here and a foul call there that would have gone their way and they may just have won it all.

Jordan had an AMAZING supporting cast for all his championship runs.

In 1996 when he came back for the full season, they also added Rodman..giving them four all star level players ..jordan,pippen,rodman and kukoc to go along with perfect roll players and the best coach in the game.

There is a psychological principle that states the more times you here someone's name, the more you will like them. The more times you hear Jordan the better you think he is. Jordan was the first huge marketing revelation in the NBA with Nike and Gatorade and at a time when the game was going global. His name, face and image were everywhere, at an unprecedented level, and this added to his mystique and made people think he was better than he was.

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, he was. I'm not even saying he wasn't the best ever. He may have been. All I'm saying is that I don't think he's as good as everyone thinks he was.

Bulls won 11 more games in 1993. They went 57-25 and 15-4 in the playoffs. Bulls in 1994 went 55-27 and 6-4 in the playoffs.

Also Jordan made Pippen.

[Alpha Wolf]

Jordon has won 6 championships, which is surely a record. Doesn't that make him the greatest winner ever


Answer: No. Bill Russell has nearly twice as many rings as Foolish jordon. Russell won 8 in a row and 11 in his 13 years. Magic Johnson won 5 championships playing in the more competitive NBA of the 1980s. That is why jordon never made the finals during the 80s.

In truth, it is Scottie Pippen who is responsible for the Bulls

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordon has won 6 championships, which is surely a record. Doesn't that make him the greatest winner ever


Answer: No. Bill Russell has nearly twice as many rings as Foolish jordon. Russell won 8 in a row and 11 in his 13 years. Magic Johnson won 5 championships playing in the more competitive NBA of the 1980s. That is why jordon never made the finals during the 80s.

In truth, it is Scottie Pippen who is responsible for the Bulls’ success. During his 3 years before Pippen joined the Bulls, jordon failed to lead the team to the second round of the playoffs or even post a winning record in the regular season, despite having teammates like Charles Oakley (top 2 rebounder), Orlando Woolridge (20 PPG scorer) and George Gervin (a member of the top 50 of all time). jordon is worth 2 wins to the team (proven later in this FAQ).

Pippen is the one who makes the Bulls win. This year (1997-98), without Pippen during the early months, jordon went on record as saying the Bulls were playing like an "expansion team." jordon himself knows that Pippen is the man on the Bulls. That is why he wouldn’t return to play unless the Bulls kept Pippen. Pippen does the work and ballhog jordon gets the glory. Having jordon on your team is the same as spotting the other team points. However, Pippen wins in spite of jordon’s albatross-like performances and cancerous activity to the team.

jordon’s "will to win" is as overrated as he is. Remember who retired after 3 titles? jordon. jordon grew bored with riding Pippen’s coattails. Bill Russell didn’t grow tired of winning after a 3 peat, not even after 2 consecutive 3-peats, and even after his 9th title, or 10th.

I’m sure jordon jockers will claim jordon's grieving was why he retired, but that just isn’t true. You jordon jockers have been watching too much "Space Jam." At his retirement announcement (and perhaps I’ll post the transcript, since I do have it on videotape), jordon was specifically asked if this is why he was retiring. Many times he denied it and said he was retiring because he "had nothing left to prove." Why did he return, if he has nothing left to prove? Money. Jordon is greedy. First, he tried to break up the player’s union out of greed, then he decided to steal over $30M/year from the Bulls. To jordon, winning means nothing, outside of a means for making more money, which he desires almost as much as gunning.

One last point about jordon’s "will to win": In game #5 of the 1996 NBA finals, jordon was coming off of a terrible game #4. He told his personal bootlicker, Ahmad Rashad, and his minions in the press that he would let his game speak for him. jordon had delusions of grandeur that he would dominate and be prophetic. However, jordon is not skilled, like Larry Bird, who on at least 2 occasions, told his opponents where he was going to take the game winning shot from, and proceeded to do it. Instead of jordon dominating in game #5, he sucked even more. See, Seattle figured out that Pippen, not jordon, needed to be double-teamed, and that jordon could shoot open shots, because he still bricks. "Mr. Winner" (Wiener) had a pathetic 4th quarter, scoring 2 points. Pippen and Kukoc grew weary of jordon’s foolish antics, that have cost them so dearly through the years, and started taking smart shots, trying to come back and win the game. jordon, was furious that his "supporting cast," as he once arrogantly referred to them by, was insolent and wasn’t letting him bask in the personal glory of scoring a lot of points, so the press could say "jordon tried to carry the team on his back." jordon proceeded to scream at his teammates for taking smart shots and trying to win the game, instead of letting him pad his 4th quarter stats. That spoke VOLUMES about his game, not to mention his priorities. It’s amazing that jordon didn’t send these guys packing, like he did B.J. Armstrong and Doug Collins, when they didn’t serve jordon’s every whim. However, jordon knows he needs these guys to win, so he can get the undeserved credit for winning. jordon was somewhat prophetic in that his game did speak for him. Unfortunately for jordon and his jockers, it said "jordon is not a team player. He is a selfish ballhog and a has-been, as well."


Jordan has 38 games of 40+ in the playoffs while Kobe has 7.


Kobe Bryant has failed to make it out of round 1 without Derek Fisher. Derek Fisher is the only reason Kobe has ever seen the 2nd round.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores97/97132/97132380.htm




The Lakers had a
chance to win it in regulation, but Kobe Bryant, who finished with 11 points, shot an air ball at the buzzer.

Bryant would miss three more shots, including two air balls, in the overtime.




That was a peak Kobe in the playoffs getting done up by Hornecek.

[Alpha Wolf]

Bulls won 11 more games in 1993. They went 57-25 and 15-4 in the playoffs. Bulls in 1994 went 55-27 and 6-4 in the playoffs.

Also Jordan made Pippen.


:wtf:




What was Jordan's playoff record without Pippen as a teammate?

ONE win and NINE loses.

Did Jordan ever get out of the first round of the playoffs without having Scottie Pippen as a teammate?

No, Jordan was knocked out in the first round all three years that he made the playoffs without Pippen. In Jordan's other two losing-record seasons with the Wizards, he did not make the playoffs.


Did Scottie Pippen ever get the Bulls past the first round of the playoffs without Michael Jordan?

Yes, in 1994, the year after Jordan's first retirement. Got them to the 2nd round, where they lost in 7 games.



get your facts straight

Michael Jordan was NOTHING without Pippen......Pippen made the Bull's CHAMPIONS ..MJ sold shoes...




Scottie Pippen

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=Alpha Wolf]Jordon has won 6 championships, which is surely a record. Doesn't that make him the greatest winner ever


Answer: No. Bill Russell has nearly twice as many rings as Foolish jordon. Russell won 8 in a row and 11 in his 13 years. Magic Johnson won 5 championships playing in the more competitive NBA of the 1980s. That is why jordon never made the finals during the 80s.

In truth, it is Scottie Pippen who is responsible for the Bulls

[Duncan21formvp]

[QUOTE=Alpha Wolf]:wtf:




What was Jordan's playoff record without Pippen as a teammate?

ONE win and NINE loses.

Did Jordan ever get out of the first round of the playoffs without having Scottie Pippen as a teammate?

No, Jordan was knocked out in the first round all three years that he made the playoffs without Pippen. In Jordan's other two losing-record seasons with the Wizards, he did not make the playoffs.


Did Scottie Pippen ever get the Bulls past the first round of the playoffs without Michael Jordan?

Yes, in 1994, the year after Jordan's first retirement. Got them to the 2nd round, where they lost in 7 games.



get your facts straight

Michael Jordan was NOTHING without Pippen......Pippen made the Bull's CHAMPIONS ..MJ sold shoes...




Scottie Pippen

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=Alpha Wolf]:wtf:




What was Jordan's playoff record without Pippen as a teammate?

ONE win and NINE loses.

Did Jordan ever get out of the first round of the playoffs without having Scottie Pippen as a teammate?

No, Jordan was knocked out in the first round all three years that he made the playoffs without Pippen. In Jordan's other two losing-record seasons with the Wizards, he did not make the playoffs.


Did Scottie Pippen ever get the Bulls past the first round of the playoffs without Michael Jordan?

Yes, in 1994, the year after Jordan's first retirement. Got them to the 2nd round, where they lost in 7 games.



get your facts straight

Michael Jordan was NOTHING without Pippen......Pippen made the Bull's CHAMPIONS ..MJ sold shoes...




Scottie Pippen

[Jinxed]

yea alpha dog...finally someone else see's the light...


what does any of this have to do with Kobe? I don't get it, why are people bringing him up?

[Roundball_Rock]

Also Jordan made Pippen.

Wow, MJ must have magic powers! How did he manage to make someone from a small school a top 5 pick without ever meeting him?


Pippen never lead the team in win shares nor PER. He never finished higher in MVP voting than MJ either.

Which is why it is ridiculous to say that Pippen was the primary reason for Chicago's success. However, it is equally ridiculous to think they would have had that success without the best SF in the game, the guy who ran the triangle offense to perfection, the GOAT perimeter defender of all-time, who was arguably the best all-around player in the league in his prime. People act as if Pippen was just a glorified Pau Gasol. He was top 20 all-time in his own right and hands down at least a top 5 player in the league during his prime.

Here is what prime Pippen did without MJ:

For 1

[Duncan21formvp]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Wow, MJ must have magic powers! How did he manage to make someone from a small school a top 5 pick without ever meeting him?



Which is why it is ridiculous to say that Pippen was the primary reason for Chicago's success. However, it is equally ridiculous to think they would have had that success without the best SF in the game, the guy who ran the triangle offense to perfection, the GOAT perimeter defender of all-time, who was arguably the best all-around player in the league in his prime. People act as if Pippen was just a glorified Pau Gasol. He was top 20 all-time in his own right and hands down at least a top 5 player in the league during his prime.

Here is what prime Pippen did without MJ:

For 1

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself not the other way around. Jordan was already a superstar in the league before Pippen came and when Pippen was averaging 8 ppg and 4 rpg as a rookie MJ won MVP and DPOY.

Read the post before generic copy and pasting.

Speaking of statements, Jordan said Pippen was the MVP and the best player on the team during the second three peat. Jordan was leading the "Pippen for MVP" crowd in 1995-96 and Pippen actually finished a decent 5th in MVP voting that year (only 11 votes behind Hakeem), I know, I know: we cherry pick which exaggerated praise of teammates counts.

No one who makes the Jordan as Midas argument has been able to explain why Midas could only make one of his numerous teammates into an all-star while playing with him. Horace Grant, Charles Oakley, Richard Hamilton and BJ Armstrong all became all-stars later in their careers (Grant, Armstrong, and Pippen mysteriously all had their career best seasons the year after MJ left); Jerry Stackhouse was an all-star two years in a row before joining Jordan in Washington. These are all all-star caliber players who mysteriously could not achieve all-star status alongside Midas. Yet we are to believe that Midas took a rookie off the bench and made him the GOAT defensive SF and arguably the GOAT perimeter defender, a top 5 all-time SF, a MVP level player in his prime, the top SF in his prime, and a top 20-30 all-time player? :roll:

Look, I believe MJ is the GOAT and he is probably my second favorite player of all-time but he wasn't freaking god.

[Duncan21formvp]

Read the post before generic copy and pasting.

Speaking of statements, Jordan said Pippen was the MVP and the best player on the team during the second three peat. Jordan was leading the "Pippen for MVP" crowd in 1995-96 and Pippen actually finished a decent 5th in MVP voting that year (only 11 votes behind Hakeem), I know, I know: we cherry pick which exaggerated praise of teammates counts.

No one who makes the Jordan as Midas argument has been able to explain why Midas could only make one of his numerous teammates into an all-star while playing with him. Horace Grant, Charles Oakley, Richard Hamilton and BJ Armstrong all became all-stars later in their careers; Jerry Stackhouse was an all-star two years in a row before joining Jordan in Washington. These are all all-star caliber players who mysteriously could not achieve all-star status alongside Midas. Yet we are to believe that Midas took a rookie off the bench and made him the GOAT defensive SF and arguably the GOAT perimeter defender, a top 5 all-time SF, a MVP level player in his prime, the top SF in his prime, and a top 20-30 all-time player? :roll:

Look, I believe MJ is the GOAT and he is probably my second favorite player of all-time but he wasn't freaking god.

If Pippen was soo good he wouldn't go 1-10 in game 7 of a playoff game. He would also end up with at least 1 finals MVP.

Hell Pippen isn't even on Tony Parker's level. At least Tony got a finals MVP.

[Roundball_Rock]

If Pippen was soo good he wouldn't go 1-10 in game 7 of a playoff game. He would also end up with at least 1 finals MVP.

According to Michael Jordan himself Scottie deserved to be the 1998 finals MVP. :confusedshrug:

lol as if no one has ever had a bad playoff game. Didn't Duncan have a two point playoff game a few weeks ago?

[Duncan21formvp]

According to Michael Jordan himself Scottie deserved to be the 1998 finals MVP. :confusedshrug:

lol as if no one has ever had a bad playoff game. Didn't Duncan have a two point playoff game a few weeks ago?

Yeah right. Pippen averaged like 15 ppg and didn't show up in games 5 and 6.

Was 2-16 in one and scored 6 and scored 8 in the other.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ask MJ--the GOAT--why he felt that way. Hint it had nothing to do with scoring.

Pippen had a bad back in games 5/6 due to Karl Malone injuring him in game 5.

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Wow, MJ must have magic powers! How did he manage to make someone from a small school a top 5 pick without ever meeting him?



Which is why it is ridiculous to say that Pippen was the primary reason for Chicago's success. However, it is equally ridiculous to think they would have had that success without the best SF in the game, the guy who ran the triangle offense to perfection, the GOAT perimeter defender of all-time, who was arguably the best all-around player in the league in his prime. People act as if Pippen was just a glorified Pau Gasol. He was top 20 all-time in his own right and hands down at least a top 5 player in the league during his prime.

Here is what prime Pippen did without MJ:

For 1

[Jinxed]

..

[miniharrison37]

you're definitely right.. i mean 10 scoring titles, 5 mvps, 6 final mvps, 1 dpoy, 6 championships, and 11 all-nba's aren't thaaaat great.. just your average nba career.. :rolleyes:
Lol, yeah. He was so bad. i mean really, ONLY 5 mvps? what a loser

[Micku]

I never really watched Jordan play; only a couple of games. I do think people overrate Jordan, but I am no position to say. Regardless of all that, I do think he is the GOAT from what he did and how good he and his team were.

[Roundball_Rock]

How did tony perform better? He just came on the team

Kukoc's best career season was 1998-99.


They were a vertern tested players by time MJ left

Pippen played 17 seasons, 10 of them with Jordan if you include 1994-95. The best year of his career was the year Jordan retired; his second best season was the year Jordan was retired for 4/5 of the season. After Jordan came back Pippen's numbers plummeted. He went from 21.9 ppg (top 10 in the NBA) to 19.7 with MJ, his rebounding fell from 8.7 (top 20) to 6.9. This is making him better?

Horace Grant also played 17 seasons in the NBA. 6 of them were with MJ. The best season of his career was the year Jordan left to play baseball.

BJ Armstrong played 11 seasons in the league. Four of them were with Jordan. The best season of his career was the year Jordan retired.

Notice a trend?

Jerry Stackhouse made two consecutive all-star teams on the strength of finishing 8th and 3rd in scoring respectively in 1999 and 2000. In 2003 he went to Washington--Jordan's team. His numbers did not improve at all over 2002 and he was never again an all-star.

Larry Hughes averaged 12.8 ppg with Jordan in 2003. After Jordan retired he shot up to 18.8 ppg, the second best season of his career.

Jordan is the GOAT because he has the longevity of Kareem, the winning of Russel, and the offensive dominance of Wilt. However, I don't buy the belief that he made his teammates much better. If he did more than one of his teammates would have made an all-star team. Grant, Armstrong, Oakley, Stackhouse, and Richard Hamilton all did make all-star teams at some points in their careers--but never with Jordan.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Horace Grant also played 17 seasons in the NBA. 6 of them were with MJ. The best season of his career was the year Jordan left to play baseball.

BJ Armstrong played 11 seasons in the league. Four of them were with Jordan. The best season of his career was the year Jordan retired.

Kukoc's best career season was 1998-99.

This is very misleading. A quick look at the numbers will show that both BJ and Grant had equal or better seasons with Jordan during the first 3-peat. There's no difference there that can't be explained by normal season-over-season deviation (check their PERs, FG%, TS%, and FGA). Ditto for Pippen, whose 1992 season was fantastic.

Kukoc did not have a better season in 1999, when he shot 41% from the field, than he did in 1996 or '97, he simply had a much larger role and was featured more. That's a full paradigm shift in terms of his role; it has nothing to do with Jordan's presence or absence.

[stephanieg]

KG, Ray Ray, and Paul Pierce make each other worse. I mean look at their numbers vs. even just the year before the big trades happened. KG went from 22/13 to 19/9. Ray Ray went from 26 ppg to 17 ppg. Pierce went from 25 ppg to 20 ppg. They must all be team cancers.

Oh wait, only someone who doesn't understand diminishing returns or usage vs. efficiency would say that.

[Cyclone112]

Kukoc's best career season was 1998-99.



Pippen played 17 seasons, 10 of them with Jordan if you include 1994-95. The best year of his career was the year Jordan retired; his second best season was the year Jordan was retired for 4/5 of the season. After Jordan came back Pippen's numbers plummeted. He went from 21.9 ppg (top 10 in the NBA) to 19.7 with MJ, his rebounding fell from 8.7 (top 20) to 6.9. This is making him better?

Horace Grant also played 17 seasons in the NBA. 6 of them were with MJ. The best season of his career was the year Jordan left to play baseball.

BJ Armstrong played 11 seasons in the league. Four of them were with Jordan. The best season of his career was the year Jordan retired.

Notice a trend?

Jerry Stackhouse made two consecutive all-star teams on the strength of finishing 8th and 3rd in scoring respectively in 1999 and 2000. In 2003 he went to Washington--Jordan's team. His numbers did not improve at all over 2002 and he was never again an all-star.

Larry Hughes averaged 12.8 ppg with Jordan in 2003. After Jordan retired he shot up to 18.8 ppg, the second best season of his career.

Jordan is the GOAT because he has the longevity of Kareem, the winning of Russel, and the offensive dominance of Wilt. However, I don't buy the belief that he made his teammates much better. If he did more than one of his teammates would have made an all-star team. Grant, Armstrong, Oakley, Stackhouse, and Richard Hamilton all did make all-star teams at some points in their careers--but never with Jordan.

You do realize if you take a team that averages 100ppg and throw on Jordan who averages lets say 30ppg, the team isn't going to average 130ppg right. Obviously Jordan is going to get his and his teammates are going to take a hit in their statistics so using that against him is just ridiculous.

The thing is his teammates average more without him because they have to make up for the huge gap in statistics and they most likely do it much more inefficiently than he would as very few people are comparable to MJ in terms of efficiency. In the end it's actually better that his teammates stats dropped somewhat which would usually(not always) make them more efficient for the stats they do accumulate making the team better as a whole.

It may not make it seem like he's making each individual better(in terms of stats) but in actuality he is making the team better by creating plays for the team, taking the majority of the pressure off their backs, allowing teammates to play more of their usual role etc and thus this comes back to my point about efficiency.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is very misleading. A quick look at the numbers will show that both BJ and Grant had equal or better seasons with Jordan during the first 3-peat. There's no difference there that can't be explained by normal season-over-season deviation (check their PERs, FG%, TS%, and FGA). Ditto for Pippen, whose 1992 season was fantastic.

Kukoc did not have a better season in 1999, when he shot 41% from the field, than he did in 1996 or '97, he simply had a much larger role and was featured more. That's a full paradigm shift in terms of his role; it has nothing to do with Jordan's presence or absence.

Pippen and Grant both had career highs in ppg and rpg the year after MJ retired. They exceeded their previous bests by 1 in each category (22 ppg and 8.7 rpg for Pippen versus 21 ppg and 7.7 rpg; 15.1 ppg and 11.0 rpg versus 14.2 ppg and 10.0 rpg for Grant). Pippen's PER was 20.1 in 1992, 16.9 in 1993 but shot up to 22.8 (4th in the league) in 1994! In 1995 he was 7th in PER, and this was after his stats plummeted after MJ's return. Armstrong had his two best seasons without MJ. He averaged 9.9 and 12.3 ppg with MJ; 14.8 and 14.0 ppg without him. His numbers, like Pippen's, also plummeted after MJ returned. He was matching his career high ppg with 14.8 through February. In March he fell to 13.7, in April--the only full month MJ played--he fell to 9.9.

I will give you Kukoc but Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong show the myth that "MJ made Pippen." There is not much evidence to suggest MJ made his teammates better.


It may not make it seem like he's making each individual better(in terms of stats) but in actuality he is making the team better by creating plays for the team, taking the majority of the pressure off their backs, allowing teammates to play more of their usual role etc and thus this comes back to my point about efficiency.

Of course MJ made the team better. What I dispute is the idea that MJ was so magical at improving his teammates that he took a scrub bench warming rookie and turned him into a HOFer.


Oh wait, only someone who doesn't understand diminishing returns or usage vs. efficiency would say that.

Ok. MJ made his teammates better. Look at how much Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Oakley, Stackhouse, and Hamilton sucked without him!

MJ=GOAT in offensive dominance
MJ=GOAT in winning (of course Russel would freaking win 11--he played with NINE HOF'ers!!!)
MJ=GOAT in longevity

MJ does not = the GOAT in making his teammates better IMO. Compare him to the impact, say, Magic had on his teammates. For instance, Worthy fell from 21.4 ppg to 19.9 ppg without Magic,

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pippen and Grant both had career highs in ppg and rpg the year after MJ retired. They exceeded their previous bests by 1 in each category (22 ppg and 8.7 rpg for Pippen versus 21 ppg and 7.7 rpg; 15.1 ppg and 11.0 rpg versus 14.2 ppg and 10.0 rpg for Grant). Pippen's PER was 20.1 in 1992, 16.9 in 1993 but shot up to 22.8 (4th in the league) in 1994! In 1995 he was 7th in PER, and this was after his stats plummeted after MJ's return. Armstrong had his two best seasons without MJ. He averaged 9.9 and 12.3 ppg with MJ; 14.8 and 14.0 ppg without him. His numbers, like Pippen's, also plummeted after MJ returned. He was matching his career high ppg with 14.8 through February. In March he fell to 13.7, in April--the only full month MJ played--he fell to 9.9.

Again, none of their seasons are anything other than normal deviation. It wasn't like someone went from a 10 ppg player to an 18 ppg player. All 3 of them had seasons taht were equal or comparable with Jordan. It's late, so I won't post the full numbers now, but maybe tomorrow I will.

[Roundball_Rock]

Really? Let's look at Pippen as a case study.

PPG

1990: 16.5
1991: 17.8
1992: 21.0
1993: 18.6
1994: 22.0
1995: 21.4 (21.9 without MJ, 19.7 with MJ taking 24 shots a game)
1996: 19.4 (21.3 before his late season injury)
1997: 20.2
1998: 19.4

RPG

1990: 6.7
1991: 7.3
1992: 7.7
1993: 7.7
1994: 8.7
1995: 8.1 (8.3--top 20--without MJ, 6.9 with MJ)
1996: 6.4 (due to Rodman)
1997: 6.5
1998: 5.2

APG

1990: 5.4
1991: 6.2
1992: 7.0
1993: 6.3
1994: 5.6
1995: 5.2
1996: 5.9
1997: 5.7
1998: 5.8

Scottie's two best seasons in steals? 1994 (2nd) and 1995 (1st)

PER

1990: 16.3
1991: 20.6
1992: 21.5
1993: 19.2
1994: 23.2
1995: 22.6
1996: 21.0
1997: 21.3
1998: 20.4

MVP voting:

1992: 7th
1993: N/A
1994: 3rd
1995: 7th
1996: 5th
1997: 11th
1998: 10th

Defensive rating

1991: 8th
1993: 8th
1994: 7th
1995: 1st
1996: 10th

Career highs are in bold.

[Toizumi]

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, he was. I'm not even saying he wasn't the best ever. He may have been. All I'm saying is that I don't think he's as good as everyone thinks he was.

Lol so you start a thread claiming Jordan is overrated. But then again he might've been the best ever?..

So people overrate him by claiming he was better than he actually was, while being the best ever? :oldlol: cool.. I kinda know what you mean, but why start thread about it? :

Look, the bulls had a great team. In any other situation, who knows what Jordan would've done.. He did an unbelievalbe job and is considered GOAT for a reason. Can't be better than the best right? :confusedshrug

[guy]

Really? Let's look at Pippen as a case study.

PPG

1990: 16.5
1991: 17.8
1992: 21.0
1993: 18.6
1994: 22.0
1995: 21.4 (21.9 without MJ, 19.7 with MJ taking 24 shots a game)
1996: 19.4 (21.3 before his late season injury)
1997: 20.2
1998: 19.4

RPG

1990: 6.7
1991: 7.3
1992: 7.7
1993: 7.7
1994: 8.7
1995: 8.1 (8.3--top 20--without MJ, 6.9 with MJ)
1996: 6.4 (due to Rodman)
1997: 6.5
1998: 5.2

APG

1990: 5.4
1991: 6.2
1992: 7.0
1993: 6.3
1994: 5.6
1995: 5.2
1996: 5.9
1997: 5.7
1998: 5.8

Scottie's two best seasons in steals? 1994 (2nd) and 1995 (1st)

PER

1990: 16.3
1991: 20.6
1992: 21.5
1993: 19.2
1994: 23.2
1995: 22.6
1996: 21.0
1997: 21.3
1998: 20.4

MVP voting:

1992: 7th
1993: N/A
1994: 3rd
1995: 7th
1996: 5th
1997: 11th
1998: 10th

Defensive rating

1991: 8th
1993: 8th
1994: 7th
1995: 1st
1996: 10th

Career highs are in bold.

I don't see your point. His ppg and rpg high without Jordan is about 1 more then it was with Jordan. Are you trying to imply that cause of 1 more ppg and rpg, Jordan was holding back Pippen? The statistical differences is clearly just due to Jordan not being there and Pippen having a take on a little more of a load statistically. Its not like he was better without Jordan.

[juju151111]

Kukoc's best career season was 1998-99.



Pippen played 17 seasons, 10 of them with Jordan if you include 1994-95. The best year of his career was the year Jordan retired; his second best season was the year Jordan was retired for 4/5 of the season. After Jordan came back Pippen's numbers plummeted. He went from 21.9 ppg (top 10 in the NBA) to 19.7 with MJ, his rebounding fell from 8.7 (top 20) to 6.9. This is making him better?

Horace Grant also played 17 seasons in the NBA. 6 of them were with MJ. The best season of his career was the year Jordan left to play baseball.

BJ Armstrong played 11 seasons in the league. Four of them were with Jordan. The best season of his career was the year Jordan retired.

Notice a trend?

Jerry Stackhouse made two consecutive all-star teams on the strength of finishing 8th and 3rd in scoring respectively in 1999 and 2000. In 2003 he went to Washington--Jordan's team. His numbers did not improve at all over 2002 and he was never again an all-star.

Larry Hughes averaged 12.8 ppg with Jordan in 2003. After Jordan retired he shot up to 18.8 ppg, the second best season of his career.

Jordan is the GOAT because he has the longevity of Kareem, the winning of Russel, and the offensive dominance of Wilt. However, I don't buy the belief that he made his teammates much better. If he did more than one of his teammates would have made an all-star team. Grant, Armstrong, Oakley, Stackhouse, and Richard Hamilton all did make all-star teams at some points in their careers--but never with Jordan.
Pip got less shots and what the hell does MJ have to do with his rebounding?? We had rodman on the team.His roled changed in 1996.I never said MJ taught him everything. Mj told the ins and outs of the game and offensive moves. tony that was only playing 44 gms that season.Stas can be inflated.He got traded to phi and played the same way.He didn't improve. Ur right about grant, but rip just came in the league. Mj had noting to do with him not being in the allstar gm. He was improving every year. He was still puttong up 20 ppg with mj.Rip mostly made the allstar gm because of being on the pistons team. His stats were basically the same in 02 has in 05.

[Meticode]

Pip got less shots and what the hell does MJ have to do with his rebounding??

At the time Jordan was one of the best rebounding guards in the league. So you have the best rebounder in the league by default on your team and probably the best rebounding SG in the league on your team. Logically if you replace Jordan with a weaker rebounder the rebounds are going to displace among other members namely your best rebounder and whoever else rebounds well.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't see your point. His ppg and rpg high without Jordan is about 1 more then it was with Jordan.

That is if you cherry pick his highs from ten seasons with Jordan and then compare them to what he did in 1 3/4 seasons without MJ in his prime. 1994-95 is the best illustration of this. He was averaging 21.9 ppg and 8.7 rpg without MJ; MJ comes back and he plummeted to 19.7 ppg and 6.9 rpg. His apg, a stat you would think MJ would increase, remained the same. Put another way, he averaged 19.8 ppg MJ from 1991-92 to 1996-7. In 1 3/4 seasons without MJ he averaged 22 ppg. Of course this can be attributed to him being the #1 option on offense without MJ but how do you explain his career highs in rebounding, steals, and defensive rating all coming during those 1 3/4 seasons without MJ?


hat the hell does MJ have to do with his rebounding?? We had rodman on the team.His roled changed in 1996.

Rodman was not on the team in 1994-95. What does MJ have to do with his rebounding? Not much. It just seems that MJ's presence hurt Pippen's production overall.


Mj told the ins and outs of the game and offensive moves.

I agree with that. MJ helped Pippen but I think it is a myth that he "made Pippen." If MJ was that good at elevating his teammates Pippen would not be the only teammate of his to ever make an all-star team.


At the time Jordan was one of the best rebounding guards in the league. So you have the best rebounder in the league by default on your team and probably the best rebounding SG in the league on your team

True as to MJ's rebounding skills. MJ was consistently good for 6-7 rpg and averaged 8 in one season. However, I don't think MJ's 6 boards is why Pippen plummeted from a top 20 rebounder to 6.9 when MJ returned. His numbers across the board just fell with MJ. It is no coincidence that his career highs in points, rebounding, steals, and defensive rating just happened to occur during that brief window MJ was retired. Just look at steals as another indicator. He averaged 2.9 in his 1 3/4 seasons without MJ, good for second and first in the league those seasons. In 1995-96 he slipped to 1.7. Defensive rating? 97 and a league leading 98 without MJ; MJ comes back and he fell to 101. He still had good numbers with MJ but there is a consistent trend across the board: his numbers fell significantly with MJ.

[guy]

That is if you cherry pick his highs from ten seasons with Jordan and then compare them to what he did in 1 3/4 seasons without MJ in his prime. 1994-95 is the best illustration of this. He was averaging 21.9 ppg and 8.7 rpg without MJ; MJ comes back and he plummeted to 19.7 ppg and 6.9 rpg. His apg, a stat you would think MJ would increase, remained the same. Put another way, he averaged 19.8 ppg MJ from 1991-92 to 1996-7. In 1 3/4 seasons without MJ he averaged 22 ppg. Of course this can be attributed to him being the #1 option on offense without MJ but how do you explain his career highs in rebounding, steals, and defensive rating all coming during those 1 3/4 seasons without MJ?

How the hell did I cherry pick his highs? His highs in scoring and rebounding without Jordan were 22 ppg/8.7 rpg, while his highs with him were 21 ppg/7.7 rpg. I didn't cherry pick, thats a FACT. And 94-95 is not a good illustration AT ALL when you consider the fact that it was only 17 games. It would be like saying Shawn Marion hindered Wade's scoring this year, cause right after the trade, Wade averaged 35 ppg for like a month.




Rodman was not on the team in 1994-95. What does MJ have to do with his rebounding? Not much. It just seems that MJ's presence hurt Pippen's production overall.

What the hell? Are you serious? Jordan might've taken a few rebounds away from Pippen, just because its natural that playing with another good rebounder would do that, but thats it. You're seriously going to say that Jordan MADE Pippen a worse rebounder?




I agree with that. MJ helped Pippen but I think it is a myth that he "made Pippen." If MJ was that good at elevating his teammates Pippen would not be the only teammate of his to ever make an all-star team.

Well Jordan played with Pippen pretty much his whole career. Is it really that bad of a thing that Jordan only helped one guy to become an all-star? You're really going to discredit him for that? Not to mention its pretty much well known that Rodman always got screwed cause of his reputation. If he wasn't such a weirdo, he would've definitely made all-star teams when he was with the Bulls.



True as to MJ's rebounding skills. MJ was consistently good for 6-7 rpg and averaged 8 in one season. However, I don't think MJ's 6 boards is why Pippen plummeted from a top 20 rebounder to 6.9 when MJ returned. His numbers across the board just fell with MJ. It is no coincidence that his career highs in points, rebounding, steals, and defensive rating just happened to occur during that brief window MJ was retired. Just look at steals as another indicator. He averaged 2.9 in his 1 3/4 seasons without MJ, good for second and first in the league those seasons. In 1995-96 he slipped to 1.7. Defensive rating? 97 and a league leading 98 without MJ; MJ comes back and he fell to 101. He still had good numbers with MJ but there is a consistent trend across the board: his numbers fell significantly with MJ.

Well clearly Pippen's stats will be down when he's playing with another great all-around player. Jordan's stats were also down cause he was playing with Pippen. Pippen's numbers NEVER fell significantly. Pippen's best years were from about 92-97, which makes sense considering he was 26-31 during that time. Without Jordan he averaged about 22ppg/8.7 rpg, with him during that time he was averaging 18.6-21 ppg/6.5 rpg-7.7 rpg. You call that significant?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove, but if you're trying to say that playing with Jordan negatively affected Pippen and his career, then thats one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard here.

[Roundball_Rock]

How the hell did I cherry pick his highs? His highs in scoring and rebounding without Jordan were 22 ppg/8.7 rpg, while his highs with him were 21 ppg/7.7 rpg. I didn't cherry pick, thats a FACT.

It is a misleading fact. Why not compare his averages with MJ in his prime (1991-92 to 1996-1997) to his averages without MJ?


You're seriously going to say that Jordan MADE Pippen a worse rebounder?

Apparently, Jordan made Pippen worse across the board. :confusedshrug:


Is it really that bad of a thing that Jordan only helped one guy to become an all-star? You're really going to discredit him for that?

Yes. Part of being a superstar is making your teammates better. Jordan apparently did not do that.

Rodman was 34 by the time he got to Chicago anyway. Jordan can't be credited with "making" Rodman. Why didn't Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, Orlando Wooldrige, or Oakley become all-stars with MJ, though? Three of them became all-stars at some point, two of them right after MJ left, and Kukoc and Woolridge were potential all-stars. Surely MJ, who took a scrub and made him a HOFer, could have elevated them to all-star status?


Well clearly Pippen's stats will be down when he's playing with another great all-around player.

It is understandable that Pippen's scoring would decline when he was playing with someone who would take 300+ more shots a season than anyone else in the league. However, what does MJ have to do with his defensive rating, steals, or rebounding declining?


Jordan's stats were also down cause he was playing with Pippen.

Let's find out. In 1997-98 Pippen was out for the first half of the season. How did Jordan do with and without Pippen? Since Scottie only played about ten games before the all-star break let's compare MJ's number before and after the ASG.

Before: 28.9 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 3.4 apg, 45.0% fg
After: 28.5 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.5 apg, 48.9% fg

Pippen's return hurt his rebounding a bit, which is understandable, but it helped his offensive efficiency. His scoring average remained the same even with Pippen coming back and taking some shots away from MJ. The reason? His field goal percentage increased by 4% with Pippen drawing some defensive attention from MJ.

That was half a season. How about comparing Jordan's 1997 season with his 1998 season? This way we can look at things like offensive and defensive ratings.

1997: 29.6 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 48.6% fg, 37.4% three point %
1998: 28.7 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 46.5% fg, 23.8% three point %

PER: 27.8 in 1997, 25.2 in 1998
Offensive rating: 121 in 1997, 114 in 1998
Defensive rating: 102 in 1997, 100 in 1998

Surprisingly, Jordan's stats actually went down without Pippen. You would think that they would go up but a decline in his effectiveness offset the increased role he had without Pippen.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove, but if you're trying to say that playing with Jordan negatively affected Pippen and his career, then thats one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard here.

It was great for winning, great for his fame, but it hurt his legacy as an individual player. Just look at the KG/Pippen thread. There are a fair amount of people today who consider him to be essentially a glorified Mo Williams.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Let's find out. In 1997-98 Pippen was out for the first half of the season. How did Jordan do with and without Pippen? Since Scottie only played about ten games before the all-star break let's compare MJ's number before and after the ASG.

Before: 28.9 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 3.4 apg, 45.0% fg
After: 28.5 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.5 apg, 48.9% fg

Pippen's return hurt his rebounding a bit, which is understandable, but it helped his offensive efficiency. His scoring average remained the same even with Pippen coming back and taking some shots away from MJ. The reason? His field goal percentage increased by 4% with Pippen drawing some defensive attention from MJ.

Uhh, Jordan's FG% was steadily increasing throughout the season after the first 15 games or so where he averaged like 41% shooting as he adjusted to a cracked knuckle and torn ligament on the index finger of his shooting hand. He shot 41% the first 15 games or so and like 48.5% the rest of the way. Pippen didn't have much to do with it, and you can check his month-over-month efficiency for evidence. This is all documented, btw. Pippen's presence definitely helped Jordan on offense (especially in 1998, when MJ was 35 years old), but not to the degree the numbers you posted suggest.


That was half a season. How about comparing Jordan's 1997 season with his 1998 season? This way we can look at things like offensive and defensive ratings.

1997: 29.6 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 48.6% fg, 37.4% three point %
1998: 28.7 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 46.5% fg, 23.8% three point %

PER: 27.8 in 1997, 25.2 in 1998
Offensive rating: 121 in 1997, 114 in 1998
Defensive rating: 102 in 1997, 100 in 1998

Surprisingly, Jordan's stats actually went down without Pippen. You would think that they would go up but a decline in his effectiveness offset the increased role he had without Pippen.

See above. You should look up what a "confound" is. A lot of the stuff you've posted herein is extreme cherry picking, especially the Grant/BJ stuff, which you still refuse to relent on, which is hysterical. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen didn't have much to do with it, and you can check his month-over-month efficiency for evidence.

I did and you are correct. So your argument is that Pippen's presence had no significant impact on Jordan's stats. Guy's hypothesis was that Jordan's stats would go up without Pippen, which seems to make sense since Pippen's 16-17 shots a game had to go somewhere (usually this is the case, i.e. Pierce's numbers increased without KG, T Mac's did in 2008 when Yao went down, etc.), just as Pippen's rose without Jordan. This is the reason I even looked up those splits and compared 97' with 98'.

MJ was 35 but he was still the best player in the league in 1998.

What cherry picking? Grant played 17 seasons, Armstrong 10. Their best seasons were the one after MJ was no longer there to "make" players. :confusedshrug:

[iggy>]

why are people still posting in this thread?:confusedshrug:

[guy]

It is a misleading fact. Why not compare his averages with MJ in his prime (1991-92 to 1996-1997) to his averages without MJ?

Its also misleading to take what Pippen did in one and half seasons and expect him to have the same stats every year, especially when in those seasons he was 28-29, which is usually a player's absolute prime. Anyway, I say his prime was 92-97, so using the 92, 93, 96, and 97 seasons, his average was 19.9 ppg/7.1 rpg. That is not a signficant decrease at all from 22/8.7. And the rebounding decrease has alot more to do with Rodman/Grant, not Jordan.




Apparently, Jordan made Pippen worse across the board. :confusedshrug:


Is it really that hard to understand? If you're playing with other great players, your averages go down. It doesn't mean Pippen was actually worse playing with Jordan.



Yes. Part of being a superstar is making your teammates better. Jordan apparently did not do that.

Rodman was 34 by the time he got to Chicago anyway. Jordan can't be credited with "making" Rodman. Why didn't Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, Orlando Wooldrige, or Oakley become all-stars with MJ, though? Three of them became all-stars at some point, two of them right after MJ left, and Kukoc and Woolridge were potential all-stars. Surely MJ, who took a scrub and made him a HOFer, could have elevated them to all-star status?

Kukoc was never a potential all-star. He didn't do much before Jordan came back or after he left. Armstrong really had no business being in the ASG, and its looked at by many as a really undeserving all-star appearance. Grant's numbers in his all-star year were not much different then they were when he was playing with Jordan. He finally started getting some recognition with Jordan gone though, but after he left Chicago, he never had the numbers he had while playing with Jordan. Jordan played only one full season with Woolridge and that was his rookie year. Oakley was pretty young when he played with Jordan.

LOL @ Jordan not making his teammates better. Maybe he didn't "MAKE" them, but he definitely helped them get better. Or is it just a coincidence that Pippen and Grant went from role players that only played 20 mpg in their rookie year to the 2nd and 3rd best players of a championship team 3 years later? Sure, they get the most credit, but don't try to diminish what Jordan did and say he had nothing to do with it, especially when they both say otherwise.



It is understandable that Pippen's scoring would decline when he was playing with someone who would take 300+ more shots a season than anyone else in the league. However, what does MJ have to do with his defensive rating, steals, or rebounding declining?

Umm, probably nothing at all. Why can't you just attribute it to Pippen being in his absolute prime and took advantage of the opportunity to step up when he needed to help fill the void Jordan left.



Let's find out. In 1997-98 Pippen was out for the first half of the season. How did Jordan do with and without Pippen? Since Scottie only played about ten games before the all-star break let's compare MJ's number before and after the ASG.

Before: 28.9 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 3.4 apg, 45.0% fg
After: 28.5 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.5 apg, 48.9% fg

Pippen's return hurt his rebounding a bit, which is understandable, but it helped his offensive efficiency. His scoring average remained the same even with Pippen coming back and taking some shots away from MJ. The reason? His field goal percentage increased by 4% with Pippen drawing some defensive attention from MJ.

That was half a season. How about comparing Jordan's 1997 season with his 1998 season? This way we can look at things like offensive and defensive ratings.

1997: 29.6 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 48.6% fg, 37.4% three point %
1998: 28.7 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 46.5% fg, 23.8% three point %

PER: 27.8 in 1997, 25.2 in 1998
Offensive rating: 121 in 1997, 114 in 1998
Defensive rating: 102 in 1997, 100 in 1998

Surprisingly, Jordan's stats actually went down without Pippen. You would think that they would go up but a decline in his effectiveness offset the increased role he had without Pippen..

Wow, you take Jordan's stats when he was 35 years old? Jordan clearly was not going to score like he did in his prime at 35 years old. Why don't we also talk about Pippen when he was in mid 30s too when he was with the Rockets and Blazers? Cause his stats were much lower then they were before, and Jordan was nowhere in sight.

Jordan's stats clearly went down once Pippen became a great player and the Bulls started winning championships. There is a difference, but not that signficant, between Jordan's stats from 87-90 and 91-97.



It was great for winning, great for his fame, but it hurt his legacy as an individual player. Just look at the KG/Pippen thread. There are a fair amount of people today who consider him to be essentially a glorified Mo Williams.

Jordan's presence didn't hurt Pippen's legacy AT ALL. What's a better legacy? 6 championships and great all-around stats or 0 championship and the same stats plus 2 ppg/2 rpg? Scottie Pippen is not Mo Williams, that's an insult. But he's the most talked about player from the past who was rarely ever a top 5 player in the league. The man has not been relevant for about 10 years, and even when he was, he was rarely a top 5 player in the league, yet he's still talked about on boards like this like he only retired yesterday. There is no way in hell Jordan hurt Pippen's legacy.

[Roundball_Rock]

Its also misleading to take what Pippen did in one and half seasons and expect him to have the same stats every year,

I thought you said he was consistent?

You are right--it is hard to believe 1994 was his limit. If he had five prime seasons without MJ he probably would have had at least one or two seasons that were better than his 1993-94 campaign.


Anyway, I say his prime was 92-97, so using the 92, 93, 96, and 97 seasons, his average was 19.9 ppg/7.1 rpg. That is not a signficant decrease at all from 22/8.7.

22 ppg in that era was enough to be top 10 in the league. I think there is a significant difference between 22 ppg and 20 ppg.


Is it really that hard to understand? If you're playing with other great players, your averages go down. It doesn't mean Pippen was actually worse playing with Jordan.

As a general proposition regarding things like scoring, yes, but what did MJ have to do with Pippen's defensive rating or steals numbers?


Kukoc was never a potential all-star.

He was once considered the best player in Europe. Surely MJ could have "made" him an all-star, right?


Grant's numbers in his all-star year were not much different then they were when he was playing with Jordan. He finally started getting some recognition with Jordan gone though, but after he left Chicago, he never had the numbers he had while playing with Jordan.

Actually he did.

1991: 12.8/8.4
1992: 14.2/10.0
1993: 13.2/9.5
1994: 15.1/11.0 (both career highs)
1995: 12.8/9.7
1996: 13.4/9.2
1997: 12.6/9.0

He was the same with even a Penny Hardaway led team as he was with Jordan. What does this say about Jordan making his teammates better?


Oakley was pretty young when he played with Jordan.

So was Scottie Pippen. :)


. Or is it just a coincidence that Pippen and Grant went from role players that only played 20 mpg in their rookie year to the 2nd and 3rd best players of a championship team 3 years later?

No it wasn't a coincidence--almost every player improves from their rookie season to their third year. It is a natural progression. As you said, player's primes tend to be when they are around 28-30 years old. Experience improves players up to around that point when their physical decline offsets their increasing experience.


Why can't you just attribute it to Pippen being in his absolute prime and took advantage of the opportunity to step up when he needed to help fill the void Jordan left.

I could--if it weren't for Horace Grant and Armstrong. If MJ elevated his teammates so much how could Grant be as good with a Penny Hardaway led team as he was on MJ's early 90's Bulls? That suggests MJ didn't really elevate his teammates, at least on the court. Maybe he helped them improve in the gym and in practice but he evidently did not have the ability, say a Magic had, of making his teammates better. Look at Worthy's stats the year after Magic retired for instance.


Wow, you take Jordan's stats when he was 35 years old?

The only reason I looked at 1998 is that it was the only time he played in Chicago without Pippen and the issue was comparing his stats with Pippen and without him. Besides, there is no significant difference between being 34 and 35 and MJ was still the best player in the NBA in 1998. It isn't as if I was comparing his 1987 season to his Wizards years.


Jordan's presence didn't hurt Pippen's legacy AT ALL. What's a better legacy? 6 championships and great all-around stats or 0 championship and the same stats plus 2 ppg/2 rpg? Scottie Pippen is not Mo Williams, that's an insult. But he's the most talked about player from the past who was rarely ever a top 5 player in the league.

Sure it did and your post is a perfect example of why. I think we can both agree that he was at least a top 5 player in 1993-94 and 1994-95. Gee, I wonder why so many people say he was great for only those two seasons? You said he was basically the same player from 1992-97. So why was his reputation suddenly elevated for 18 months (during which time some argued he was the best player in the league!)? Oh yeah...

It is a false assumption that he would have never won a ring without Jordan. Just look at 1993-94.

[OldSchoolBBall]

It is a false assumption that he would have never won a ring without Jordan. Just look at 1993-94.

What are we supposed to be looking at? A team that lost in the second round and which likely wouldn't have made it out of the first round if Cleveland's entire front line hadn't been missing for the playoffs?

It's not false that he wouldn't have won a title, it's simply UNPROVABLE. Just like suggesting that he would have won a title is UNPROVABLE. You can't prove or disprove something that didn't actually happen. All you can do is look at the caliber of player he is, and then look at the caliber of players that have led championship teams: Duncan, Shaq, Jordan, Magic, Hakeem, Bird. Pippen simply isn't on that level; it's not even that close, really. If he ended up playing alongside a better player than he is, maybe he would have won a title. But not as a team's best player.

Eagerly awaits the inevitable mention of the '89/'90 and '04 Pistons, which were ensemble casts, not star/supporting player driven teams

[Knoe Itawl]

Wow, 9 pages of people trying to seriously argue with an obvious troll. I understand the urge to want to set people straight that like to bullshyt but that's when you fall into the trap.

[Roundball_Rock]

He had one full season without MJ in his prime and nearly beat a Knicks team which came within one shot of the championship that year. That team was 4-6 without him and 51-21 with him (on pace for 58 wins over 82 games). If he did not get hurt they were on pace to be the #1 seed in the East. What a lousy team! We also know about the infamous Hollins call. That is the only time Pippen was in the playoffs alone without Jordan in his prime. Going by that and the strong regular season it is certainly possible that he could have led a championship team.

How good do you think he was in his prime? I think most people will agree--and this certainly was the view at the time--that he was at least a top 5 player in 1993-94/1994-95. A top 5 player isn't enough to lead a championship team?

[OldSchoolBBall]

How good do you think he was in his prime? I think most people will agree--and this certainly was the view at the time--that he was at least a top 5 player in 1993-94/1994-95. A top 5 player isn't enough to lead a championship team?

Again, they lost in the second round like 4 teams do each year. And I don't put much stock in the whole "came within a shot of beating a team that made the Finals," since it's questionable whether they would have even gotten out of the first round if Daugherty/Nance/Williams (their entire front line) weren't out for Cleveland in round 1; the Cavs went 4-1 or 5-1 vs. Chicago that year. Moreover, that play happened in game 5 - it wouldn't have won the series for them.

As to your question, I think he was top 5 from '93-'97, but no, I don't think that's generally enough to lead a championship team, considering that the other members of the top 5 (then and in general, i.e., the top 5 in any era) are usually more dominant players than he was.

[bagelred]

I want to jizz on your mothers face.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/72434/saturday-night-live-motherlover

[Roundball_Rock]

Again, they lost in the second round like 4 teams do each year.

Thanks to Hue Hollins! We only have that one year to look at. They lost in the second round the following year even with MJ and that year they were legitimately and comprehensively defeated by the Magic.


As to your question, I think he was top 5 from '93-'97, but no, I don't think that's generally enough to lead a championship team, considering that the other members of the top 5

Really? How good does a player have to be to lead a championship team in your opinion? Top 3? So only Cleveland and LA have a shot at the title this year?

[bagelred]

BTW, Jordan is the most ferocious competitor I've ever seen play. If I had to trust my life for someone to get a win, it would be Jordan, no question.

Everyone who's seen him play, former players, competitors, fans....everyone agrees he's the best player ever. How can he be overrated?


I bet the OP is too young to remember Jordan is his prime years.

[guy]

I thought you said he was consistent?

He was. I meant its dumb to expect him to have the exact same stats every year as in 22/8.7.



You are right--it is hard to believe 1994 was his limit. If he had five prime seasons without MJ he probably would have had at least one or two seasons that were better than his 1993-94 campaign.

And/or a few seasons that were not as good as his 94 season.



22 ppg in that era was enough to be top 10 in the league. I think there is a significant difference between 22 ppg and 20 ppg.

Carmelo Anthony went from 25.7 to 22.8 this past year. You really think he's not as good as he was last year? That Chauncey Billups is negatively holding him back? You really think the difference is that significant?



As a general proposition regarding things like scoring, yes, but what did MJ have to do with Pippen's defensive rating or steals numbers?

If a great player like Pippen is playing with one of the most statistically dominant players of all-time, and then all of a sudden that guy leaves, most of Pippen's stats will increase. I don't really know much about defensive rating, but his steals numbers will go up just because he has more opportunities too without Jordan cause he has to take a bigger load. Is that really hard to understand.



He was once considered the best player in Europe. Surely MJ could have "made" him an all-star, right?

LOL. You're acting like being the best player in Europe back then actually means something.



Actually he did.

1991: 12.8/8.4
1992: 14.2/10.0
1993: 13.2/9.5
1994: 15.1/11.0 (both career highs)
1995: 12.8/9.7
1996: 13.4/9.2
1997: 12.6/9.0

He was the same with even a Penny Hardaway led team as he was with Jordan. What does this say about Jordan making his teammates better?


I was a little wrong about this. His numbers were similar, but overall his stats were a little better in Chicago. It doesn't mean anything about Jordan making his teammates better. Grant was a good player. Just because Jordan left doesn't mean Grant was going to automatically start sucking. Its idiotic to assume that Jordan had absolutely no effect on Grant's career, especially when he says otherwise.



So was Scottie Pippen. :)


And? Pippen played much longer with Jordan, and he was a better player then Oakley.



No it wasn't a coincidence--almost every player improves from their rookie season to their third year. It is a natural progression. As you said, player's primes tend to be when they are around 28-30 years old. Experience improves players up to around that point when their physical decline offsets their increasing experience.


I didn't say Jordan was completely responsible. Clearly natural progression has something to do with it, but clearly Jordan helped in that. You talk about experience. You think without Jordan at the time they get that valuable experience? You don't think they're making it to ECFs without Jordan? Without Jordan for those first few years, they're most likely a lottery team.



I could--if it weren't for Horace Grant and Armstrong. If MJ elevated his teammates so much how could Grant be as good with a Penny Hardaway led team as he was on MJ's early 90's Bulls? That suggests MJ didn't really elevate his teammates, at least on the court. Maybe he helped them improve in the gym and in practice but he evidently did not have the ability, say a Magic had, of making his teammates better. Look at Worthy's stats the year after Magic retired for instance.

Both Grant and Armstrong's stats improved by about the same amount as Pippen's did. Both of them also stepped up to fill some of the void Jordan left. And Worthy went from 21.4 ppg to 19.9 ppg. Not much of a difference.



The only reason I looked at 1998 is that it was the only time he played in Chicago without Pippen and the issue was comparing his stats with Pippen and without him. Besides, there is no significant difference between being 34 and 35 and MJ was still the best player in the NBA in 1998. It isn't as if I was comparing his 1987 season to his Wizards years.

He was still the best player but he wasn't the statistically dominant monster he was before. And another thing, there's clearly instances when this is not the case. What are you trying to argue? That Pippen wasn't good enough to keep his stats up while playing with Jordan, but Jordan was? Who's fault is that? Anyway, most of the time, a player's stats go up when they're team loses key players. That doesn't mean they're better off without those teammates. Lebron had better stats overall last year, but does anyone honestly think he was better last year?




Sure it did and your post is a perfect example of why. I think we can both agree that he was at least a top 5 player in 1993-94 and 1994-95. Gee, I wonder why so many people say he was great for only those two seasons? You said he was basically the same player from 1992-97. So why was his reputation suddenly elevated for 18 months (during which time some argued he was the best player in the league!)? Oh yeah...

IMO he was a top 5 player 4 out of 18 seasons. Maybe "rarely" was an overstatement. Part of the reason he was a top 5 player from 94-97 (and 96 and 97 is arguable if don't take Shaq's injuries into account), was cause Jordan was gone. In Pippen's prime years, Jordan, Hakeem, and Malone were always better. Robinson was always better except for the year he was injured. Shaq, Ewing, Barkley, and Drexler had years where they were better.

And calling him the best player in the league was hype. No one in their right mind at the time would've taken him over Hakeem or Robinson. He was probably the best perimeter player at the time. That kind of hype is still used to this day. Over the past decade, we've heard people say AI, Nash, CP3, Pierce, and others were the best players in the league. No one in their right mind would've ever actually argued that though.



It is a false assumption that he would have never won a ring without Jordan. Just look at 1993-94.

Sure its an assumption. Just like its an assumption that he was actually better without Jordan, especially just by looking at numbers. But its highly doubtful he would've won a title as the best player, because he just wasn't on the level of other players that have led teams to titles. His legacy is most likely better with Jordan then it would've been without.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Thanks to Hue Hollins! We only have that one year to look at.

You only have that one year to look at, yet you have no qualms in declaring that they could have won a championship based on the fact that they made the second round. And the Hollins call was in game 5; you're just assuming that they would have on game 6 and, if necessary, game 7. You can't just assume that. This wasn't a call made at the end of a deciding game, where you can say with certainty that if the call wasn't made the outcome of the series would hav been different.


Really? How good does a player have to be to lead a championship team in your opinion? Top 3? So only Cleveland and LA have a shot at the title this year?

Titles are won by dominant players, by and large. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan etc. The mid-90's (as opposed to the early 90's or mid-00's) happened to have a relative dearth of dominant players after MJ; Pippen was in that 5ish range for a few years, but he was not dominant enough to lead a championship team imo.

And yes, only Cleveland and LA have a realistic shot at the title this year for precisely that reason. The only way you can beat a dominant player on a good/great team is by having a tremendous ensemble cast with a ton of talent (think: KG/Ray/PP/Rondo/Perkins or the '04 Pistons).

[And1AllDay]

If Lebron James were to get injured this off-season or go play baseball, how many games do you think the Cavaliers would win next year....think about it for a second...40? 45 tops? What if the Heat didn't have Wade? or the Hornets didn't have CP3...how many less games would these teams win next year? Surely about 15-20 right? Agree with me so far?

Well in 1992-1993 the Chicago Bulls won the NBA title. They went 57-25. After the season Jordan left to go play baseball.

The next year without Jordan, the Chicago Bulls went 55-27. That's only two less games they won! The only major addition they had to their team was Toni Kukoc, who averaged 10 points in 24mpg as a rookie.

In the playoffs they would lose to the Knicks in 7 games. Who in turn lost to the Rockets in 7 games. They were a championship level team, a rebound here and a foul call there that would have gone their way and they may just have won it all.

Jordan had an AMAZING supporting cast for all his championship runs.

In 1996 when he came back for the full season, they also added Rodman..giving them four all star level players ..jordan,pippen,rodman and kukoc to go along with perfect roll players and the best coach in the game.

There is a psychological principle that states the more times you here someone's name, the more you will like them. The more times you hear Jordan the better you think he is. Jordan was the first huge marketing revelation in the NBA with Nike and Gatorade and at a time when the game was going global. His name, face and image were everywhere, at an unprecedented level, and this added to his mystique and made people think he was better than he was.

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, he was. I'm not even saying he wasn't the best ever. He may have been. All I'm saying is that I don't think he's as good as everyone thinks he was.

bingo

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


Without MJ, the Bulls woudn't be a playoff team in the 80's and would be a garbage team in the 90's - so they only won 55 that year because they were pursuing a 4-peat (thanks to MJ) - a 4-peat team fell to 55 wins and 2nd Round loss... Yikes

Once they were exposed in the 94' Playoffs and the 3-peat luster was gone, the 95' Bulls were a .500 ballclub before MJ carried them to 13-4 and another 3-peat in his first full seasons back.

[JBSptfn]

Jordan myths exposed:

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm
Jordan did not carry a bunch of marginal role players to 6 championships - The Bulls were a very, very good team with or without Michael Jordan. The argument I present proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Jordan simply wasn't as valuable as his friends in the media would like to make him out to be.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/supportingcast.htm
Jordan does not make those around him better - Dismantling the myth. He played with very good teammates who did just fine without him.


http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/defense.htm
Jordan was an overrated defender - From 1996-98, Jordan had no business being named to the all-defensie team.


Examples of Jordan being over-hyped by the media:

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/college.htm
Jordan in college - a perfect example of media hype. He didn't "lead" Carolina to a title. When he did lead the team, they choked.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/athlete.htm
Jordan - the greatest athlete ever? Proof that ESPN's list was biased and ignorant.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/hype.htm
The 1988 dunk contest - Even when Jordan loses, he wins.




no matter what criteria is used, Michael Jordan is not the greatest player ever. He maybe #2, #20, or #2000, but he is not #1.

Air Judden, is that you? If it is, nice to see you. And, I agree with all the above.

[Axe]

He had one full season without MJ in his prime and nearly beat a Knicks team which came within one shot of the championship that year. That team was 4-6 without him and 51-21 with him (on pace for 58 wins over 82 games). If he did not get hurt they were on pace to be the #1 seed in the East. What a lousy team! We also know about the infamous Hollins call. That is the only time Pippen was in the playoffs alone without Jordan in his prime. Going by that and the strong regular season it is certainly possible that he could have led a championship team.

How good do you think he was in his prime? I think most people will agree--and this certainly was the view at the time--that he was at least a top 5 player in 1993-94/1994-95. A top 5 player isn't enough to lead a championship team?
What happened to this user? :ohwell:

[3ba11]

Pippen destroyed the 3-peat status to 55 wins and 2nd Round in 1994, and then nearly lottery in 95' until MJ came back.

Imagine if MJ hadn't come back... The Bulls would've kept declining and been lottery every year - only the 3-peat system proppoed up the Bulls for that one year in 94', but it couldn't save them from massive choke and horrific performance in the playoffs.

Ultimately, when did Pippen ever do anything in the playoffs?... He was trash from 88-90'... Trash from 96-98'... Trash in 95'.... Trash from 99-03'.... And trash in the 93' Playoffs (worst-ever)... So he had 1 viable run (91') because he nearly caused upset loss in the 92' ECSF and derailed that repeat... Pippen is literally the worst playoff performer of all-time

[And1AllDay]

Pippen destroyed the 3-peat status to 55 wins and 2nd Round in 1994, and then nearly lottery in 95' until MJ came back.

Imagine if MJ hadn't come back... The Bulls would've kept declining and been lottery every year - only the 3-peat system proppoed up the Bulls for that one year in 94', but it couldn't save them from massive choke and horrific performance in the playoffs.

mike had pippen and grant

pippen only had grant

slide out mikey with pippen and grant and put in klay thompson and its a insta chip. mikey = klay thompson impact. good, not great


get wrekt n00b :oldlol:

[3ba11]

mike had pippen and grant

pippen only had grant

slide out mikey with pippen and grant and put in klay thompson and its a insta chip. mikey = klay thompson impact. good, not great


get wrekt n00b :oldlol:


it's funny because 94' Pippen proved that MJ would've won the title in 94' without Pippen... Jordan beats the Knicks/Pacers, and then beats Hakeem because Ewing nearly beat Hakeem with 18 on 35%

Ultimately, when did Pippen ever do anything in the playoffs?... He was trash from 88-90'... Trash from 96-98'... Trash in 95'.... Trash from 99-03'.... And trash in the 93' Playoffs (worst-ever)... So he had 1 viable run (91') because he nearly caused upset loss in the 92' ECSF and derailed that repeat... Pippen is literally the worst playoff performer of all-time