Bryant Dunking on Kareem like he's a beetch *VIDEO*

[Jinxed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P81EDIryPlQ&feature=related


:D

[OldSchoolBBall]

He actually looks to be a better one-footed leaper than his son. But I thought no one could leap before 2003?

[Hammertime]

He actually looks to be a better one-footed leaper than his son. But I thought no one could leap before 2003?

Baskets were about a foot shorter back then.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Baskets were about a foot shorter back then.

Forgot about that.

[andgar923]

He seemed to have jumped higher than his son.

[Fatal9]

He actually looks to be a better one-footed leaper than his son. But I thought no one could leap before 2003?
Centers/PFs weighed 190-220 pounds on average. Much easier to jump when you are rail thin than the average 250+ lb C/PF nowadays. This is part of the reason why it was much easier for guards to penetrate as there was generally a lot more room in the lane. Also helped SGs/SFs in getting offensive rebounds because the disparity in size and strength between positions wasn't as great as it is now.

[Showtime]

^ I really hope that's sarcasm. If not...


Centers/PFs weighed 190-220 pounds on average. Much easier to jump when you are rail thin than the average 250+ lb C/PF nowadays.

You don't know wtf you are talking about if you think all the centers were rail thin and 220. That wasn't the case, but even if it were, you don't see KG getting abused inside by smaller guys do you? Weren't people clamoring he was the backbone of Boston's defense and DPOY? Not to mention you think all the bigs today are 250+. How stupid are you?


This is part of the reason why it was much easier for guards to penetrate as there was generally a lot more room in the lane.

A lot more room in the lane? Guess what: they didn't have to leave the lane every 3 seconds. They didn't have to worry about the charge area. And the defense didn't have to spread the floor as much because teams weren't so focused on shooting the long ball. The lane was more crowded before compared to today. They blocked the lane more than today, which is why big bruisers like Mark Eaton blocked the **** out of teams because he was just a wall that camped the lane. You are a moron.


Also helped SGs/SFs in getting offensive rebounds because the disparity in size and strength between positions wasn't as great as it is now.
:roll:

[gts]

that would be 1979-80 there..#31 is haywood, bryant would have been 25 years old in that video, first year with the clippers

[TryToBeUnbias]

eh wish they had more highlights of his dads plays

[OldSchoolBBall]

Centers/PFs weighed 190-220 pounds on average. Much easier to jump when you are rail thin than the average 250+ lb C/PF nowadays. This is part of the reason why it was much easier for guards to penetrate as there was generally a lot more room in the lane. Also helped SGs/SFs in getting offensive rebounds because the disparity in size and strength between positions wasn't as great as it is now.

Totally disagree. Especially about the lane being less crowded than today, for many of the reasons cited by Showtime.

[Fatal9]

You don't know wtf you are talking about if you think all the centers were rail thin and 220. That wasn't the case, but even if it were, you don't see KG getting abused inside by smaller guys do you? Weren't people clamoring he was the backbone of Boston's defense and DPOY? Not to mention you think all the bigs today are 250+. How stupid are you?
:oldlol:

Average weight of center back then was 214 lbs. Today it is 245+. Darryl Dawkins and Lanier were the only ones over 250 lbs and Dawkins was probably the heaviest in the late 70s. For comparison's sake, KG is 253.

So yes, I do know what I'm talking about when I say they were "rail thin and sub 220".

edit: Joe Bryant played PF/C and he is listed at 185 :oldlol:

[Showtime]

:oldlol:

Average weight of center back then was 214 lbs. Today it is 245+.

Prove it. Where is your data? Are you just looking up a couple of college weights from basketball-reference.com?

Guys like Charles Oakley and Kevin Willis would eat this league alive. Look at Kevin Love. The guy gets his fat ass around the court, gets physical, and is praised as a top prospect in that class for post players. Are you kidding? Only in today's game.

And second, as I already pointed out, even if that false claim was true, KG has been a top defender in the league and he was around 220 and rail thin, especially at his peak in the early 2000's. So please show me how, because of his frame, that he gets abused on a nightly basis.


Darryl Dawkins and Lanier were the only ones over 250 lbs and Dawkins was probably the heaviest in the late 70s. For comparison's sake, KG is 253.

Kg isn't 253. You are dreaming.


So yes, I do know what I'm talking about when I say they were "rail thin and sub 220".

No, you don't. You haven't provided any factual averages, heights, weights, etc. You have said only two players were of comparable size to today's post players. That's all a bunch of BS.


And thanks for not trying to defend your claims about the crowded post because you can only make yourself look more foolish.

[Fatal9]

Dude, I just picked a random year from the 70s of centers and got 214.6 as the average weight. How are you even arguing this? Just LOOK at the players, there is a visible 40-50 pound difference between them and today's centers. This shouldn't even require a calculation(though I went ahead and made one). Go check the average weight for yourself.

KG isn't 253? Find me a listing that says he isn't.

Who was heavier than Dawkins at 251 in the late 70s? There is ONE player and he was a bench warmer. KG who is one of the wiriest players at the PF/C spot is heavier than him.

[Fatal9]

And thanks for not trying to defend your claims about the crowded post because you can only make yourself look more foolish.
In theory what say sounds right but watch the actual games. The difference between spacing is insignificant. Usually the two players on the wings would stand exactly where the corner side three point line is. Just because there wasn't a three point line doesn't mean players were confined to a 15 ft radius from the hoop. Secondly, the defender guarding the three point shooter is usually the one who ends up providing help so you need to get rid of this idea where defenders are glued to the shooter, especially when teams play zone.

Now, I will admit rotations were much quicker but what I say is especially true in cases where the defense wasn't set, which happened to be for a good portion of the game considering how fast paced it was.

[Showtime]

Dude, I just picked a random year from the 70s of centers and got 214.6 as the average weight. How are you even arguing this? Just LOOK at the players, there is a visible 40-50 pound difference between them and today's centers. This shouldn't even require a calculation(though I went ahead and made one). Go check the average weight for yourself.

What specific year? What is your source? Where is your information?

And if you did get them from bball reference, then you aren't getting accurate weights. Moses Malone = 215? Yeah, out of HS at 18, but not in his prime. C'mon, you can't be that stupid.


KG isn't 253? Find me a listing that says he isn't.

Find me ANY source that puts him over 230. Did you just go to his Wiki page? LMFAO. He's been thin all his career, and hasn't built a large amount of muscle mass. He's bulked up since coming into the league, but he's not over 250.

Here's Moses Malone, who you think was 215 his entire career:

Early days:

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/14/gallery.aba/malone.jpg

Peak

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/page2/photos/040614sixers.jpg

Now here's a player who is of similar height, but who you think has 40lbs on Malone:

KG coming out of high school:

http://www.nba.com/media/timberwolves/garnett_200_960305.jpg

KG at his peak in 2004/05:

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/fantasy/02/02/mailbag/p1_garnett_getty.jpg

KG in Boston:

http://www.derok.net/images/sports/kevin%20garnett%20fist%20pump.jpg

There's no way he has 40lbs on Moses.


I'm done with you.

[DCL]

that's pretty high aerial even by today's standards.

[Fatal9]

Find me ANY source that puts him over 230. Did you just go to his Wiki page? LMFAO. He's been thin all his career, and hasn't built a large amount of muscle mass. He's bulked up since coming into the league, but he's not over 250.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_garnett/
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=261
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/6581

:confusedshrug:

[Showtime]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_garnett/
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=261
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/6581

:confusedshrug:
So you think two things:

1. that KG has put on 38 pounds of muscle since coming out of HS at 215ish.

and:

2. that KG has 40lbs on Moses Malone at any point in his career.

Am I correct in that's the opinion you have at this time?


Why is this so difficult to grasp? The same site that makes you believe Moses was 215 is the same site that says KG is 220. So, if KG isn't 220, and has put on weight to the point of 250+, then why do you think every other big man listed in the 70's stayed at their entry weight? There's no way Moses was 215 all his life, which means:

Either that weight of 253 isn't accurate (which I suspect isn't considering KG's frame),

or

Moses was over 215lbs, and many other bigs put on weight and didn't stay the same weight they were at when they were 19 or 20.

Both points hurt your argument.

[Showtime]

And don't sit there and tell me that guys like Artis Gilmore were rail thin post players who were abused by guys driving into the lane, because that just isn't true.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/17/20038946_9807edd74a.jpg

https://www.nbrpa.com/news/editorial/images/jim_bot.jpg

http://www.remembertheaba.com/TeamMaterial/KentuckyMaterial/GilmorePauseBarry.JPG

http://www.op97webclub.com/O.Miller/Mittleman/images/GILMORE.GIF

http://www.mascweb.com/masc/images/artis.gif

^ rail thin punk who was abused by scrubs.

http://urbansportstalk.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/kgarnett.jpg

^ DPOY beast who had 40 lbs on Moses.

[TheGrassIsGreen]

If you look closely at his right knee, you'll see that he got a boost from Kareem's hip.

[phelix2000]

I can easily see kg at 250+ plus all all the sources have him at it. I don't know what you are arguing that KG isn't 250+. Do you have some secret source that none of us know about?

[stephanieg]

ESPN Classic had a Spurs-LA playoff game from the early '80s a couple days ago. Dwight is like a smaller Gilmore. Kinda scary how similar they are.

[Psileas]

Kareem got the last laugh in that game. He scored the game-winning basket.

[Kebab Stall]

KG at 250?

:oldlol:

You're an idiot if you think that KG is at 250. I'd put him at 235 max.

[Jinxed]

Do you ever look at your Dad and say why couldn't you be a world class athlete!?!!?!

[Showtime]

I can easily see kg at 250+ plus all all the sources have him at it. I don't know what you are arguing that KG isn't 250+. Do you have some secret source that none of us know about?
First off I was pointing out how the listed weights change because that idiot said Moses was 215.

Second, KG came into the league at 215. So, while he has bulked up, I don't believe he put on nearly 40lbs of pure muscle. He's built up lean muscle, and I would think his playing weight is around 235, based upon visual evidence and other players who are similar.

[gts]

KG at 250?

:oldlol:

You're an idiot if you think that KG is at 250. I'd put him at 235 max.i could see kg pushing 250.. he's tall (duh) but he has a big set of shoulders on him.. you're talking about a 15 pound difference and 15 pounds of muscle spread out over a person that height is not going to be visable... it's not like it's 15 pounds of fat tacked on as a beer gut

[Fatal9]

And don't sit there and tell me that guys like Artis Gilmore were rail thin post players who were abused by guys driving into the lane, because that just isn't true.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/17/20038946_9807edd74a.jpg

https://www.nbrpa.com/news/editorial/images/jim_bot.jpg

http://www.remembertheaba.com/TeamMaterial/KentuckyMaterial/GilmorePauseBarry.JPG

http://www.op97webclub.com/O.Miller/Mittleman/images/GILMORE.GIF

http://www.mascweb.com/masc/images/artis.gif

^ rail thin punk who was abused by scrubs.

http://urbansportstalk.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/kgarnett.jpg

^ DPOY beast who had 40 lbs on Moses.

Moses was 260 lbs using nba.com (which I also used for KG). You do realize if the entry weights of NBA players in the 70s are listed then the entry weights of NBA players of the 00's are also listed (eg. Dwight Howard is only 240). Neither side has an advantage here. Also, I'm more inclined to believe official rankings from EVERY source than your gut feeling that KG is not 250.

You are trying make it seem like I am somehow questioning the abilities of players in the 70s when not a single one of my posts indicates that. I have said what I've noticed in comparison between the two eras. The centers are about 40-50 lbs lighter than the average center today. If you have functioning eyes, you should be able to see this (the stats confirm this view). This isn't a diss in anyway to those players because in todays world most of them would be 250+ lb. My only point is that it is much easier to squeeze through the lane when everyone on average is so much lighter and occupies less space. Watching/comparing the games has only confirmed this. Secondly, with the offensive rebounding point I made, you can check the stats to see that teams (and by extension guards) got offensive rebounds at a rate of about 20-30% more than today. This is because a) boxing out at 220 is not quite as effective as boxing out at 270 and b) the disparity between the strength of a SG and PF/C wasn't as great as it is now (you will notice them literally rip it out of the hands of the bigs, something which is a lot rarer now). Again, we are talking about the average center. Not everyone of them was as strong as Wilt, Gilmore or Dawkins.

So maybe you should stop using this played out tactic of posting pictures of one or two players which shows nothing. It would be the equivalent of me posting pics of Shaq, Dwight, Yao and saying the typical center looked like them.

[SRZ66]

wow i clicked on this thread thinking it was going to be kobe dunking on kareem during a practice or something, kinda like that one of him on shaq

[DuMa]

i'd believe KG is 250+. he has bulked up considerably since his minnesota days.

[Showtime]

Moses was 260 lbs using nba.com (which I also used for KG). You do realize if the entry weights of NBA players in the 70s are listed then the entry weights of NBA players of the 00's are also listed (eg. Dwight Howard is only 240). Neither side has an advantage here. Also, I'm more inclined to believe official rankings from EVERY source than your gut feeling that KG is not 250.

This is what you said:

"Average weight of center back then was 214 lbs."

First, you still never listed a source link. Second, this is false. You admit that the numbers aren't accurate because the players weights change from the time they enter the league, so these numbers are false. It would be like saying KG is still 215 from when he was entering the league.

You then said that only two players compared to today's average big man:

"Darryl Dawkins and Lanier were the only ones over 250 lbs and Dawkins was probably the heaviest in the late 70s."

You based this totally on initial weights, which aren't accurate. Moses was the example I brought up. He's listed as 215lb at basketball-reference.com, and as you said, was over 250lb. So saying there were only two bigs of comparable size to today's bigs is laughable.


You are trying make it seem like I am somehow questioning the abilities of players in the 70s when not a single one of my posts indicates that. I have said what I've noticed in comparison between the two eras. The centers are about 40-50 lbs lighter than the average center today.

Again, where is your data that supports the claim that today's bigs are on average 50lbs heavier? You already admitted you thought there were only two players of that size during that time, then backtracked by adding Moses once you found his real weight. Guys like Moses, Gilmore, Walton, Hayes, McGinnis, KAJ, Unseld, etc all were big bodies inside that compare to today's bigs. Once the ABA folded, there were 22 teams in the NBA. Show me a source that has actual weights (not inaccurate ones), and averages of every player.


If you have functioning eyes, you should be able to see this (the stats confirm this view).

If you didn't base your entire argument on inaccurate stats, and you actually knew wtf you were talking about and took your own advice, you wouldn't be looking like a fool right now.


This isn't a diss in anyway to those players because in todays world most of them would be 250+ lb. My only point is that it is much easier to squeeze through the lane when everyone on average is so much lighter and occupies less space. Watching/comparing the games has only confirmed this.

And I've already debunked that in several ways:

- Despite KG's weight (even if he is 250+), he's not a big frame that takes up a ton of space in the lane, which is your argument. What makes him effective is his athleticism and mobility, not a big body that stops guys. Guys like Gasol, KG, and Tyson Chandler aren't wide bodies that occupy a lot of space, rather guys like Dampier, Nene, Yao, and Shaq are. Your argument about weight = big, wide bodies that take up more space and are defensive walls inside isn't accurate.

- The difference in the rules and play style open up the lane more today, and you are claiming the opposite. You say that lighter guys = easier for players to penetrate. I have already talked about body size and weight of those players. What you aren't comprehending are the rule changes:

1) bigs now have the 3 second call when their man moves out of arm length range. Offenses now spread the floor and bring their bigs out more and have more motion for this purpose. They have to clear the lane, which provides today's swingmen more chances to attack when they spread the offense. Also, they didn't have the charge lane to worry about, and that makes it harder for today's bigs to get into position and not draw the foul. Former players could stay there all day and clog lanes.

2) 3 point shots are taken now more than then, and often times there are two or even 3 players are standing on the line waiting for a kick out or swing pass for the 3 point shot. 3 point shots weren't as popular then (especially when the NBA didn't even have it), and therefore the floor wasn't as spread out as today. The court was played "tighter" to the basket (for lack of a better term), and teams were able to collapse faster and clog the lane easier.

So because of your misconception about body sizes, the differences in rules and style, it was NOT easier to penetrate then.


Secondly, with the offensive rebounding point I made, you can check the stats to see that teams (and by extension guards) got offensive rebounds at a rate of about 20-30% more than today. This is because a) boxing out at 220 is not quite as effective as boxing out at 270 and b) the disparity between the strength of a SG and PF/C wasn't as great as it is now (you will notice them literally rip it out of the hands of the bigs, something which is a lot rarer now). Again, we are talking about the average center. Not everyone of them was as strong as Wilt, Gilmore or Dawkins.

First off, do you even watch the NBA? The average big doesn't box out that well at all, and every single game offensive boards are grabbed from guys not even bothering to box out.

Second, you again spew out stats without showing any sources. What is the basis for your claim that the average guard rebounds 20-30% more? And I'm talking about rebounding in relation to their team's total rebounds, not personal totals and averages, because totals and averages are pace related. What you are claiming is % of team rebounds. For example, in the 1976-77 NBA season, the average total rebounds for a team was 3858 compared to last season's average of 3442. Show me a source that shows that perimeter players rebounded at a ratio of 20-30% more of the rebounds than today's perimeter players.


So maybe you should stop using this played out tactic of posting pictures of one or two players which shows nothing. It would be the equivalent of me posting pics of Shaq, Dwight, Yao and saying the typical center looked like them.

You clearly don't know wtf you are talking about because you can't grasp size, rules, or play style and provide no sources for factual information. Just stop making yourself look like a fool.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont buy Unseld, Cowens, Lanier, Dawkins, Hayes, Moses, Reed, Gilmore and so on being their usually low listed weights. Or even Paul Silas and so on. If buy Jack Sikma as 250. Robert Parish too.

Truck Robinson look 220 to you?

http://nbahoopsonline.com/teams/UtahJazz/years/1974-1979/Pics/TruckRobinson.jpg

Guys like Wayne Embry are listed at 240 when they got flat out fat. He was called "The wall" and WIlt mentioned in his book that Wayne was about 300 pounds. He looked like it too.

http://www.tecumsehbasketball.com/images/Wayne%20Embry.jpg

^
Wayne in college. I dont know if I buy him under 240 even then. He looked like a young Barkley and got bigger for years.

**** Wilt was listed at 250 and still is rarely listed over 265. Its well known he was 300 in the 70s. Plain as day guys just have rookie weight listed forever.

And no current players are not listed by their rookie weights. Shaq came out of college at 287 and was 303 in his first games. You think hes listed at 303 now? Kobe was 185 as a rookie. Is he listed there now? KG if he is listed at 250 sure as hell wasnt as a rookie.

Records now are updated more often. You cant assume you know their average weight because of what they were listed. Cant even do that now.

[Showtime]

I dont buy Unseld, Cowens, Lanier, Dawkins, Hayes, Moses, Reed, Gilmore and so on being their usually low listed weights. Or even Paul Silas and so on. If buy Jack Sikma as 250. Robert Parish too.

Truck Robinson look 220 to you?

http://nbahoopsonline.com/teams/UtahJazz/years/1974-1979/Pics/TruckRobinson.jpg

Guys like Wayne Embry are listed at 240 when they got flat out fat. He was called "The wall" and WIlt mentioned in his book that Wayne was about 300 pounds. He looked like it too.

http://www.tecumsehbasketball.com/images/Wayne%20Embry.jpg

^
Wayne in college. I dont know if I buy him under 240 even then. He looked like a young Barkley and got bigger for years.

**** Wilt was listed at 250 and still is rarely listed over 265. Its well known he was 300 in the 70s. Plain as day guys just have rookie weight listed forever.

And no current players are not listed by their rookie weights. Shaq came out of college at 287 and was 303 in his first games. You think hes listed at 303 now? Kobe was 185 as a rookie. Is he listed there now? KG if he is listed at 250 sure as hell wasnt as a rookie.

Records now are updated more often. You cant assume you know their average weight because of what they were listed. Cant even do that now.
That's my point. Weights aren't accurate. If KG is 250, then he can't say the listed weights for older players on basketball reference is accurate, because we already saw the Moses example of being listed at 215 on there but was really over 250lb. So he can't use that data to say the average player then was 50lbs lighter on average, and thus way smaller, because it's not accurate.

He needs to take his own advice and actually look at these guys and watch them instead of looking at listed inaccurate weights on a website.

[nbastatus]

Kobe would destroy his dad~

[Richie2k6]

I don't believe KG is 253 at all.

[LJJ]

I don't believe KG is 253 at all.

This.

http://www.nbageek.com/images/kevin-garnett3.jpg

Skinny ass KG ain't 250.

[giantgonzolez]

:oldlol:

Average weight of center back then was 214 lbs. Today it is 245+. Darryl Dawkins and Lanier were the only ones over 250 lbs and Dawkins was probably the heaviest in the late 70s. For comparison's sake, KG is 253.

So yes, I do know what I'm talking about when I say they were "rail thin and sub 220".

edit: Joe Bryant played PF/C and he is listed at 185 :oldlol:

Yeah and centers today are are 430lbs and 500lbs monsters like this :rolleyes:

http://bigdonsboys.com/football/images/281143071dvnmcl_ph.jpg
http://www.wwedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/paulwight.jpg

Get REAL, centers today are STILL SUPERSKINNY FREAKS OF NATURE that make Anorexic Supermodels look thick by comparison. Also, the NBA LIES about the weights of NBA Players Shaq never weighed more than 275 or 285.
Here's Shaq with the slimmer trimmer 390lbs Mark Henry. I'd guess Shaq's about 260lbs or so.
http://youbeenblinded.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/shaq-worlds-strongest-man.jpg

[Fatal9]

I dont buy Unseld, Cowens, Lanier, Dawkins, Hayes, Moses, Reed, Gilmore and so on being their usually low listed weights. Or even Paul Silas and so on. If buy Jack Sikma as 250. Robert Parish too.

Truck Robinson look 220 to you?

http://nbahoopsonline.com/teams/UtahJazz/years/1974-1979/Pics/TruckRobinson.jpg

Guys like Wayne Embry are listed at 240 when they got flat out fat. He was called "The wall" and WIlt mentioned in his book that Wayne was about 300 pounds. He looked like it too.

http://www.tecumsehbasketball.com/images/Wayne%20Embry.jpg

^
Wayne in college. I dont know if I buy him under 240 even then. He looked like a young Barkley and got bigger for years.

**** Wilt was listed at 250 and still is rarely listed over 265. Its well known he was 300 in the 70s. Plain as day guys just have rookie weight listed forever.

And no current players are not listed by their rookie weights. Shaq came out of college at 287 and was 303 in his first games. You think hes listed at 303 now? Kobe was 185 as a rookie. Is he listed there now? KG if he is listed at 250 sure as hell wasnt as a rookie.

Records now are updated more often. You cant assume you know their average weight because of what they were listed. Cant even do that now.

Just added up the average center weight this year (83 C or F-C total) and the average is 251.8 lbs. This is using ROOKIE weights from bballreference.com, which does not use updated weights (KG is at 220, Dwight 240 etc.).

The average in '76 for a center was 214.9 lbs using rookie weights (again from bball reference). Nearly a 40 pound difference. Moses, Dawkins updated weights (from nba.com) are actually 260 and 255 respectively. KG's updated weight is 253 so I don't know where people are getting the idea that I think KG is 40 pounds heavier than prime Moses.

The point isn't about which centers are better or more athletic (imo the lighter, 70s centers were actually more agile and could leap higher but at the expense of weight/strength). What I've said is two things. First, just from purely observation I saw more open lanes to squeeze into for players (especially athletic guards) because the players on average were 40-50 pounds lighter and occupied less space. You can make the argument about spacing, which I don't buy because like I said, teams still almost always had two or three players floating 20+ feet away from the rim especially on the wings. Secondly I said offensive rebounding for teams, guards especially, was much easier (this again is backed up by comparing the offensive rebounding percentage of teams - about a 20-30% difference).

There is nothing controversial about what I said, it's not even a criticism of either era, just an observation. If you really think current centers on average weighed around the same as they did 30-40 years ago, then I really can't help you. The stats show this, your vision shows this...whats to argue here?

FYI, nba.com lists Wilt at 275.

[Showtime]

Just added up the average center weight this year (83 C or F-C total) and the average is 251.8 lbs. This is using ROOKIE weights from bballreference.com, which does not use updated weights (KG is at 220, Dwight 240 etc.).

The average in '76 for a center was 214.9 lbs using rookie weights (again from bball reference). Nearly a 40 pound difference. Moses, Dawkins updated weights (from nba.com) are actually 260 and 255 respectively. KG's updated weight is 253 so I don't know where people are getting the idea that I think KG is 40 pounds heavier than prime Moses.

Wow, major fail. Can you not read?

Using inaccurate weight measurements to prove a moot point = fail.


The point isn't about which centers are better or more athletic (imo the lighter, 70s centers were actually more agile and could leap higher but at the expense of weight/strength).

Hey moron, nobody was talking about athleticism. The only reason I might have brought that up was to point out how athleticism, in KG's case, helps him defend more than his body mass, which was related to your point about body mass = better post defense.


What I've said is two things. First, just from purely observation I saw more open lanes to squeeze into for players (especially athletic guards) because the players on average were 40-50 pounds lighter and occupied less space.

And again: they weren't 50 lbs lighter on average. That's incorrect, and you continue to spew this misinformation.


You can make the argument about spacing, which I don't buy because like I said, teams still almost always had two or three players floating 20+ feet away from the rim especially on the wings.

This isn't debatable. The floor is spaced more today than when the 3 point shot was first being incorporated into the NBA (even more so when they didn't have it). Bigs today have to move more and have more restrictions on defending the lane. That's not up for debate. One could argue that the change in illegal defense impacts penetration, but we are strictly speaking from the standpoint of the big man and his ability to defend the paint.


Secondly I said offensive rebounding for teams, guards especially, was much easier (this again is backed up by comparing the offensive rebounding percentage of teams - about a 20-30% difference).

And I asked for proof. You gave none. I asked specifically to show me your source info on how the average perimeter player has a 30% jump in rebounding and you gave none. Remember, we aren't talking averages, but rebounding % (that would be the ratio of their rebounds in relation to total rebounds).


There is nothing controversial about what I said, it's not even a criticism of either era, just an observation.

And there is nothing accurate about your observations. Your claim about the size of bigs was incorrect. Your claim about spacing for the bigs was incorrect. You equate body weight to body size and direct impact on blocking the lane. This isn't accurate.


If you really think current centers on average weighed around the same as they did 30-40 years ago, then I really can't help you. The stats show this, your vision shows this...whats to argue here?

Are you serious? How can you not grasp this? Bigs back then weren't on average 50lb's lighter. THAT'S NOT ACCURATE. I'm not saying they are exactly the same, I'm saying there isn't a huge disparity like that from the mid-late 70's to now.

[Bodin]

i could see kg pushing 250.. he's tall (duh) but he has a big set of shoulders on him.. you're talking about a 15 pound difference and 15 pounds of muscle spread out over a person that height is not going to be visable... it's not like it's 15 pounds of fat tacked on as a beer gut

This. His muscles are long so they don't look as big but he could easily be around 250 coming into training camp and would likely thin a bit out over the course the season.

[Sir Charles]

He actually looks to be a better one-footed leaper than his son. But I thought no one could leap before 2003?

:roll: :applause:

[Sir Charles]

Baskets were about a foot shorter back then.

:no:

In the 50s it was 5 ft
In the 60s it was 6 ft
In the 70s it was 7 ft
In the 80s it was 8 ft
In the 90s it was 9 ft

And only since the 2000s it has been 10 ft! :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:

[Sir Charles]

^ I really hope that's sarcasm. If not...



You don't know wtf you are talking about if you think all the centers were rail thin and 220. That wasn't the case, but even if it were, you don't see KG getting abused inside by smaller guys do you? Weren't people clamoring he was the backbone of Boston's defense and DPOY? Not to mention you think all the bigs today are 250+. How stupid are you?



A lot more room in the lane? Guess what: they didn't have to leave the lane every 3 seconds. They didn't have to worry about the charge area. And the defense didn't have to spread the floor as much because teams weren't so focused on shooting the long ball. The lane was more crowded before compared to today. They blocked the lane more than today, which is why big bruisers like Mark Eaton blocked the **** out of teams because he was just a wall that camped the lane. You are a moron.


:roll:

:applause:

Weight helps but if you don`t know how to Defend or Rebound then its of no use but then again back then players had GREAT FUNDAMENTALS (in many cases from late 90s only veterans had them!) and KNOWLEDGE FOR THE GAME....

Todays NBA? THey Have Changed the Rules to Easen the Game for All These High School Leaping Wanabee Penetrators to Get to the Paint.

*Just look at Walton`s Lack of Passing Vision minutes ago to find the man that was not the in paint and totally wide open. A Disgrace. His Father would been rolling in his grave if he was dead right now :rolleyes:

80s > early 90s = slight better than Late 60s & Early 70s> Late 90s > 2000s = Late 70s> 1950s

Overall this Is One of the Worst Eras Ever!

[NBASTATMAN]

He actually looks to be a better one-footed leaper than his son. But I thought no one could leap before 2003?


Jelly bean jumps higher than kobe.. Damn he had hops...

[NBASTATMAN]

Joe was the superior leaper, but Kobe be by far the superior two foot strength jumper. For this be a lot to do with the modern day training and possibly natural progession. For he has been known to squat well over 250 kilograms. But Vince Carter be one of the few player in history who was as good a two footed jumper as he was a 1 footed leaper.



The fool continues to outdo himself. High school and college listed heights were NEVER updated at the time, unlike the inflated modern height listings.


Wrong again. Muscle trained properly, albiet playing basketball, does not hold back jumping ability, but rather enhances it. Fat slows down, not rock muscle. Certain be the likes of LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal.


Another wrong answer. The lack of a 3 point line in accordance to the defensive freedom of the big man and the common schemes used at the time says otherwise.



Wrong yet again. It actually was greater.



Weight has as much to do with height as it does with bulk, despite the lack of updated weights from college.



What exactly might the implication be here?



And magically it turns into a zone defense argument.

Quit the constant implication of the fact of the availibility of such schemes as conclusive proof, instead of the proper inconclusive opinion with far too many variables. For who knows how many games you've watched to begin with.



Where exactly might the average height or weight per position for an entire season be located on basketball reference?




Strength and size ARE NOT directly proportional.


For the third time, strength and size ARE NOT directly proportional. I don't say the same thing many times in varying fashions.



An observation coincidentally out of the blue, eh? Again what exactly did your original post have to do with such a topic be the question of the ages.



He was 300+ in his prime.


Yet the lack of relevance says otherwise. You are not even focused on a specifc point. Or did you wish to tear the era down from all angles in an unorganzied fashion stemming from a lack of understanding?



And what exactly is the implication of such point? That in addition to the apparent inferiority of the defense of the time, the apparent inferiority of the athletes at the time be evident and the inflated stats show as such? For this might be sensible to you as a stat geek, but not the basketball fans of the land.


Well no ****. Is there any modern guard that ventures into the paint with or without the ball for more than 10% of the time they are on the floor? Yet the sad part of the modern era be that be whilst faced against a zone defense, offensive rebounding should be far easier due to all the possible mismatches. Might this have not been attributed to such variables as playing pace, use of the guards, and the lack of a 3 point line as well? Or be this conviently neglected to boost the irrelevant and false implication of the abundant floor spacing at the time, which in turn be the indirect implication of defense being inferior, which AGAIN be the indirect implication that the offensive player or the player period had it easier. Now this be an implication that somehow today's athlete's be more impressive, whatever the varying credence's of such be. And on. Every single thing you and your alter ego Roundball speak of be implcations upon assumptions based on half truths and out of context percentages. Yet the standard changes, depending on who the target be.



All this be is a bunch of rambling and irrelevant to the topic claims. Yet you do anything possible to make constant implications of how the modern age be so far superior to anything prior. If you believe in something, it's best to directly say it rather than continuously jump the bush with these constant implications. For that be what most young kids have done when asking a female out on a first date, or asking a parent to purchase a good for them. It shows intimidation, lack of sufficient knowledge, lack of sufficient desire to obtain that knowledge, and a fiery and intense force of stubbornness and arrogance.



Fatal will now run and hide...

[Knoe Itawl]

Pretty much everything Fatal posts is with the intent of propping up Kobe. By saying it was easier to penetrate back then, he can indirectly make the connectiion that Bryant would have had it much easier then. Just another way to try to take other eras of the NBA down a peg to pretend that Kobe's playing in a league where the lane is practically impregnable while back then they were just rolling out the red carpet for perimeter players.

Typical Fatal garbage.

[Fatal9]

Fatal will now run and hide...
This was what, 3 months ago? :confusedshrug:

You can check the weights yourself. Rookie weights are listed for players in the 70s and also for players in the 00s. No one is calling the 70s weak or anything. It was an observation I made with the guards. Post defense wise I think 70s was the toughest era defensively but penetration wise, I still KNOW it was easier than it is now. This was true gradually into the early 80s too.

[Maniak]

Bryant>Bryant

[Lebron23]

eh wish they had more highlights of his dads plays


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nomRLYCJSrQ

[ArbitraryWater]

Showtime is like the prototype democrat/NPC lmao


Someone makes somewhat of a bold, unusual claim, that dares to generalize a group of people, and Showtime freaks out and gets offended.