INT's Top 10 Shooting Guards In NBA History

[Interminator]

http://thedailymind.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/michael_jordan_drunk.jpg


1.Michael Jordan
Accomplishments:
6x NBA Champion
6X Finals MVP
5X NBA MVP
1X DPOY
14X All-Star
50 Greatest Players

Jordan revolutionized the sport with his play, he will go down as the Greatest SG of All-Time.


http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/archives/kobe_bryant.jpg


2.Kobe Bryant
Accomplishments:
3X NBA Champion
1X MVP
11X All Star
11X All NBA Team
9X All Defense Team

Kobe is the Jordan-like figure of our era, he has won the most Championships amongst a swingman since Jordan and his play has carried the Lakers to the NBA Finals 5 times, He's done so at age 30 which is very impressive.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAFC027~Oscar-Robertson-1-Photofile-Posters.jpg

3.Oscar Robertson
Accomplishments:
1X NBA Champion
1X NBA MVP
12X All Star
11X All NBA Team
50 Greatest Players

The Big O was the Jordan of his Era where throughout years he dominated in the NBA although he never had much Championship success, but he was one of the best to ever play the game, and created the Combo Guard position.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/837171~Clyde-Drexler-Rim-action-Photofile-Posters.jpg


4.Clyde Drexler
Accomplishments:
1X NBA Champion
10X All Star
5X All NBA Team

Clyde was never the premier swingman of his Era in the NBA, but without Jordan he most likely would have been, Clyde held his own for years with his versatile game and was a 1st ballot NBA Hofer after his career ended.


http://images.askmen.com/galleries/men/allen-iverson/pictures/allen-iverson-picture-3.jpg



5.Allen Iverson
Accomplishments:
1X NBA MVP
10X All Star
7X All NBA

A NBA Title has eluded Iverson throughout his career, but even without title success he accomplished a lot for a 6'0 SG in the NBA, Iverson played without rest for multiple years and is on pace to finish his career as one of the Top 10 scoring leaders in NBA History.

http://www.nba.com/media/jerry_west_300_070308.jpg



6.Jerry West
Accomplishments:
1X NBA Champion
1X Finals MVP
14X All Star
12X All NBA Team
5X All Defense Team
50 Greatest Players

Jerry West was one of the best players of his Era, and is the likeness for the NBA Logo, but the one thing that holds him back from being the Standard for a NBA SG is that he was never the best player in the NBA or on his own team.

http://winnandtonic.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/george-gervin-photofile-posters.jpg



7.George Gervin
Accomplishments:
9X All Star
7X All NBA
50 Greatest Players

George Gervin is probably the best swingman scorer of All-Time, His numbers are among the top in the NBA although he played 10 NBA seasons, but without winning a NBA Championship, NBA MVP, or ever reaching a NBA Finals hurts him among his ranking.

http://www.nba.com/media/celtics/ray_allen_jumper300500.jpg


8.Ray Allen
Accomplishments:
1X NBA Champion
9X All Star
2X All NBA

Ray Allen will become the most prolific 3 PT shooter in NBA History in 2 more seasons, Ray Allen is the definition of a Shooting Guard, Hes underrated somewhat because he played in relative obscurity throughout most of his NBA career.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/pr/subs/siexclusive/06/15/pistons.flashback/p1_dumars_all.jpg


9.Joe Dumars
Accomplishments:
2X NBA Champion
1X NBA Finals MVP
6X All Star
3X All NBA Team
5X All Defense Team

There are few players in NBA History to have been better on the defensive side of the ball than Dumars, but offensively he was a very good player and played major roles on Pistons Finals teams, and he proved his longjevity by playing for 14 seasons as a starter.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/keith_potter/d-wade1.jpg


10.Dwyane Wade
Accomplishments:
1X NBA Champion
1X Finals MVP
5X All Star
4X All NBA Team
2X All Defense Team

Dwyane Wade is the youngest player on this list, but is one of the most deserving after carrying his team to the Playoffs last season, Wade's explosiveness to the basket, and his clutchness when the game matters puts him among the All-Time best but it's only up from here at just 28 years old.

[GP_20]

Oscar Robertson wasn't a SG

Jerry West at #6?




Fail

[Interminator]

Oscar Robertson wasn't a SG

Jerry West at #6?




Fail
Robertson imo is a SG, you can put him at either PG,SG,or SF to your hearts content.

You're an idiot, Dont spam my thread.

[phoenix18]

Where's Reggie Miller?

[phoenix18]

Robertson imo is a SG, you can put him at either PG,SG,or SF to your hearts content.

You're an idiot, Dont spam my thread.
Dont listen to him he has superiority complex.

[guy]

I love AI, but he should not be ahead of Jerry West. Thats a bit absurd. I wouldn't put Clyde ahead of him either, but I can't blame you too much for that. Wade should already be ahead of Dumars and Allen and possibly AI and Gervin as well.

[Interminator]

Where's Reggie Miller?
Replaced by Ray Allen.

Miller's claim on the list is the Greatest Shooting Shooting Guard, if that makes any sense but Ray Allen will pass him statistically for that title, and Allen had more impressive seasons scoring wise along with a NBA Championship.

[Dasher]

Sidney Moncrief> Joe Dumars

Also Ray Allen should not even be on the list.

Also phoenix Reggie should not be sniffing a top ten list over the likes of Mitch Richmond, Joe Joe White, Earl Monroe, or Vince Carter.

[Interminator]

I love AI, but he should not be ahead of Jerry West. Thats a bit absurd. I wouldn't put Clyde ahead of him either, but I can't blame you too much for that. Wade should already be ahead of Dumars and Allen and possibly AI and Gervin as well.
AI is over West because he has more points, was a MVP, and West's team success doesn't blow anyone away, and because AI is still playing.

Wade is on pace to possibly reach Kobe as #2 All Time if he can win another title along with a MVP, he just has to stay healthy into his 30's.

[Interminator]

Sidney Moncrief> Joe Dumars

Also Ray Allen should not even be on the list.

Also phoenix Reggie should not be sniffing a top ten list over the likes of Mitch Richmond, Joe Joe White, Earl Monroe, or Vince Carter.
I am going to add the next 10 later tonight,and Reggie is probably like 15 or 16 on that list.

Ray Allen should be on the list, after Allen name an Elite SG who won a NBA Title.

If a NBA Title is what matters, Allen has 1, the rest have 0.

[GP_20]

AI is over West because he has more points, was a MVP, and West's team success doesn't blow anyone away, and because AI is still playing.

West is arguably a better scorer, undoubtley a better defender, a better passer, a better leader, more clutch in the playoffs, better season and playoff performer, has a ring, has had much more team success, more award accomplishment aside from the MVP, and the list goes on.

This isn't even close.

[phoenix18]

Sidney Moncrief> Joe Dumars

Also Ray Allen should not even be on the list.

Also phoenix Reggie should not be sniffing a top ten list over the likes of Mitch Richmond, Joe Joe White, Earl Monroe, or Vince Carter.
VC should be on the list. Imagine how great he would have been if he tried.:oldlol: Anyways, I am expecting a whole bunch of AI hate, as if he is unworthy of being on this list.

[GP_20]

Any list with Iverson over West loses all credibility in an instant. It's like putting Nash over Oscar Robertson. Yes that's how stupid this is.

[Meticode]

Take Oscar Robertson off the list and put Reggie Miller on it. If you're going to have Ray Allen on there you have to have Reggie.

[phoenix18]

West is arguably a better scorer, undoubtley a better defender, a better passer, a better leader, more clutch in the playoffs, better season and playoff performer, has a ring, has had much more team success, more award accomplishment aside from the MVP, and the list goes on.

This isn't even close.
So are you saying that AI shouldnt be on the list?

[Mr_Basketball#1]

Take Oscar Robertson off the list and put Reggie Miller on it. If you're going to have Ray Allen on there you have to have Reggie.
Explain.

[Interminator]

West is arguably a better scorer, undoubtley a better defender, a better passer, a better leader, more clutch in the playoffs, better season and playoff performer, has a ring, has had much more team success, more award accomplishment aside from the MVP, and the list goes on.

This isn't even close.
Thats nice, but you should have added while playing with Elgin Baylor & Wilt Chamberlain in a Weak Era.

I'm sorry I had to do it but its the truth, I respect Jerry West's talent a lot but he played with 2 future HOFers his entire career and won only 1 NBA Championship during a time when the league was more fast paced and the talent level was not as high as it is now.

What Iverson accomplished as a 6'0 SG while playing almost every minute in a much stronger Era physically and talentwise, while never spending his career with the likes of Gail Goodrich,Wilt,and Elgin Baylor who were among the Elite at their time, for Iverson its simply amazing.

If Iverson wins a Title whether as a 6th Man or starter he automatically jumps to #3 in my opinion.

[Fatal9]

Jerry West should be no higher or lower than 3. :oldlol: at putting Iverson over him, I'd take the other 9 before Iverson.

[Interminator]

Any list with Iverson over West loses all credibility in an instant. It's like putting Nash over Oscar Robertson. Yes that's how stupid this is.
Why would I do that, its not like Nash won 2 MVP's in what looks to be the Greatest Era of PG's in NBA History.

I have Robertson as a SG so I'm not going to entertain that thought.

[Interminator]

Jerry West should be no higher or lower than 3. :oldlol: at putting Iverson over him, I'd take the other 9 before Iverson.
Why would you even come in this thread and harp over that?:confusedshrug:

Seriously you have argued in every thread about Iverson, claiming he was underrated or inefficient or whatever else that helps you sleep at night knowing Iverson was a bum and thats what matters.

We all know you dont like Iverson, so why continue to harp over it.:oldlol:

[phoenix18]

Jerry West should be no higher or lower than 3. :oldlol: at putting Iverson over him, I'd take the other 9 before Iverson.
If you gave Iverson Baylor and Chamberlain and Goodrich they would get at least three titles. West was a great player but he had a fantasy team and could one only win one.

[Interminator]

If you gave Iverson Baylor and Chamberlain and Goodrich they would get at least three titles. West was a great player but he had a fantasy team and couldnt get it done.
This.

Thats my only knock on Jerry West, I never watched him play live but I know he was one of the greatest SG's in NBA History, but he played with Wilt, Elgin, & Goodrich and won just 1 NBA Title.

Maybe thats not all his fault, but the only sure HOFer Iverson played with was Dikembe for 1 1/2 seasons.

[phoenix18]

This.

Thats my only knock on Jerry West, I never watched him play live but I know he was one of the greatest SG's in NBA History, but he played with Wilt, Elgin, & Goodrich and won just 1 NBA Title.

Maybe thats not all his fault, but the only sure HOFer Iverson played with was Dikembe for 1 1/2 seasons.
I really feel for AI, he finally got the chance to play with a healthier,deeper,better Denver team and then gets traded away to Detriot and Chauncey recieves all the credit for the improvements.

[Dasher]

VC should be on the list. Imagine how great he would have been if he tried.:oldlol: Anyways, I am expecting a whole bunch of AI hate, as if he is unworthy of being on this list.Vince was/is and has always been a better player than Reggie Miller. Vince dogged it to force a trade from Toronto and people act like he accomplished nothing in his career. He did more as a 1st option than Ray Allen ever did, and Reggie really was not a 1st option in his career. He was a nice complimentary player, but not a true superstar that could be counted on to get his own shot, while being able to create for others.

[SmackOrH.A.K]

I didn't watch A LOT of 90's basketball but I wonder how Reggie Miller got so much hype? I mean he never won MVP, or and chips. He didn't have any dominant stats or anything. And I doubt he was as fun to watch as Jordan and Drexler or then Kobe, Vince, and AI. He played on a small market Indiana team and when he made the finals he wasn't the best player on his team.

If you look at his stats only, he reminds me of a present day Joe Johnson but it looks like Joe had better stats too.

That's a legit question, no hating.

[Showtime]

Robertson imo is a SG, you can put him at either PG,SG,or SF to your hearts content.
So can I rank Lebron among point guards?

[Dro]

Vince was/is and has always been a better player than Reggie Miller. Vince dogged it to force a trade from Toronto and people act like he accomplished nothing in his career. He did more as a 1st option than Ray Allen ever did, and Reggie really was not a 1st option in his career. He was a nice complimentary player, but not a true superstar that could be counted on to get his own shot, while being able to create for others.

I swear to GOD some of you must be 18 years old, people who only look at stats, or just plain idiots.......I don't feel like going into this, do a forum search....

Reggie wasn't a 1st option, lmfao, lmfao, and lmfao again.....I'm not coming back so don't bother.....Do a search....

[cdbleb]

Robertson imo is a SG, you can put him at either PG,SG,or SF to your hearts content.

You're an idiot, Dont spam my thread.

Most people here agree that Oscar was not a SG:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44212

By your standards Oscar could be listed as a top 5 for all 3 positions? So does that mean that Magic Johnson could be a top 10 center cause he played the position before? Jordan a top 5 SF?

Players should only be eligible for one position in a list like this and Oscar would not be a SG if that were the case.

[Dasher]

I swear to GOD some of you must be 18 years old, people who only look at stats, or just plain idiots.......I don't feel like going into this, do a forum search....

Reggie wasn't a 1st option, lmfao, lmfao, and lmfao again.....I'm not coming back so don't bother.....Do a search....You must be a booty hurt Pacer fan. Reggie was not considered an elite player during his prime for a reason. He wasn't. The highlight of his career were some All NBA 3rd Team selections, that were dubious at best. He never finished in the top 10 in MVP voting, and only has two top 20 finishes. Post-career Reggie has had his stock gassed, and he may reach the HOF because of that, when superior players at his position may never reach Springfield.

[GP_20]

So are you saying that AI shouldnt be on the list?
No :confusedshrug:

I respect AI and still think he should be 5-7 range.

But nowhere near West.

[thejumpa]

You must be a booty hurt Pacer fan. Reggie was not considered an elite player during his prime for a reason. He wasn't. The highlight of his career were some All NBA 3rd Team selections, that were dubious at best. He never finished in the top 10 in MVP voting, and only has two top 20 finishes. Post-career Reggie has had his stock gassed, and he may reach the HOF because of that, when superior players at his position may never reach Springfield.

Damn. I love Reggie but, the truth hurts...:eek:

[MK2V1GP]

Even though AI has had good individual accomplishments, you can't deny how horrible of a team player and a career loser he is. He should NOT be #5.

[GP_20]

Thats nice, but you should have added while playing with Elgin Baylor & Wilt Chamberlain in a Weak Era.

I'm sorry I had to do it but its the truth, I respect Jerry West's talent a lot but he played with 2 future HOFers his entire career and won only 1 NBA Championship during a time when the league was more fast paced and the talent level was not as high as it is now.

What Iverson accomplished as a 6'0 SG while playing almost every minute in a much stronger Era physically and talentwise, while never spending his career with the likes of Gail Goodrich,Wilt,and Elgin Baylor who were among the Elite at their time, for Iverson its simply amazing.

If Iverson wins a Title whether as a 6th Man or starter he automatically jumps to #3 in my opinion.

And? You're acting like it was West's fault they couldn't get it done. It was because of West they got as far as they got. He was the best player on those Lakers teams numerous years. He had some of the greatest playoff performances in NBA history.

Either way, West is arguably better at scoring, is a better passer, and a much better defender. No matter who he played with, those hold true.


Also, why don't you discount Big O too then? West was considered his equal in their respective primes. I hope you knew that.

[theballerFKA Ace]

AI over Jerry West? :wtf:

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

[cdbleb]

Career wise West > Kobe.

Im not saying West was better than Kobe but like Ive said before I think Olajuwon was WAY better than Bill Russell but in an all time ranking I put Russell > Olajuwon...Same goes for West and Kobe for now in my opinion. Kobe is right on his heals though.

[phoenix18]

Even though AI has had good individual accomplishments, you can't deny how horrible of a team player and a career loser he is. He should NOT be #5.
:wtf: Look I am tired of this, if you call a guy that went to Finals on a at best average team a career loser, why dont you say the same thing about the "Iceman" George Gervin. How is he a horrible team player? What do you have to do to be a great team player when your team isnt great. Fact is, where ever he went did not have the fantasy team that MJ,Kobe,West had. The best player he ever played with is Carmelo Anthony. Kobe has played with Shaq and now has Pau Gasol. West had Chamberlain and Baylor. MJ had Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc. AI had what, Snow and Mutombo. Please Explain.

[Spudjjay]

AI is over West because he has more points, was a MVP, and West's team success doesn't blow anyone away, and because AI is still playing.

Wade is on pace to possibly reach Kobe as #2 All Time if he can win another title along with a MVP, he just has to stay healthy into his 30's.

+1

VC is so much better than Ray Allen career wise/prime. No matter how you spin it, Vince is light years better than Ray.

[thejumpa]

+1

VC is so much better than Ray Allen career wise/prime. No matter how you spin it, Vince is light years better than Ray.

How?:confusedshrug:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Robertson imo is a SG, you can put him at either PG,SG,or SF to your hearts content.

You're an idiot, Dont spam my thread.

I suppose you can choose to put any player in any position you want, since it's YOUR list.
However, 99% of the bball world would disagree with you. BigO was regarded as a PG.
99.9% of the world would disagree with putting West any lower than 3rd all-time.

[artest 93]

This dummy gave himself "INT". I was thinking it was some sort of lame website/article...but it's even worse :lol
---
So many things are wrong with this guy's logic.
Don't spam in "my thread" :roll:

[Interminator]

:wtf: Look I am tired of this, if you call a guy that went to Finals on a at best average team a career loser, why dont you say the same thing about the "Iceman" George Gervin. How is he a horrible team player? What do you have to do to be a great team player when your team isnt great. Fact is, where ever he went did not have the fantasy team that MJ,Kobe,West had. The best player he ever played with is Carmelo Anthony. Kobe has played with Shaq and now has Pau Gasol. West had Chamberlain and Baylor. MJ had Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc. AI had what, Snow and Mutombo. Please Explain.
+1.:cheers:

Please stop the argument, that same topic has been debated to death on this site.

[Interminator]

I suppose you can choose to put any player in any position you want, since it's YOUR list.
However, 99% of the bball world would disagree with you. BigO was regarded as a PG.
99.9% of the world would disagree with putting West any lower than 3rd all-time.

Oscar Palmer Robertson (born November 24, 1938 in Charlotte, Tennessee), nicknamed "The Big O" or O-Train, is a former American NBA player with the Cincinnati Royals and the Milwaukee Bucks.[1] The 6-foot-5, 220-pound [2] Robertson played the shooting guard/point guard position, and was a twelve-time All-Star, eleven-time member of the All-NBA Team, and one-time winner of the MVP award in fourteen professional seasons.
-Wikipedia

Oscar by today's definition would be a Combo Guard, but during his time he was basically a Point Foward at 6'5.

There are people who considered Scottie Pippen a PG, but hes commonly placed at SF due to that being his natural position and his height.

[Interminator]

How?:confusedshrug:
If you did not witness Vince's prime you cant argue that comment.

The only reason Vince isn't Top 10 is because he lacks the accomplishments those in front of him have.

Hes never been to a NBA Finals
Hes never finished higher than 10th in MVP voting
Hes been All-NBA only twice in his career.

Outside of that, statistically he is Top 10 consensus.

[Interminator]

And? You're acting like it was West's fault they couldn't get it done. It was because of West they got as far as they got. He was the best player on those Lakers teams numerous years. He had some of the greatest playoff performances in NBA history.

Either way, West is arguably better at scoring, is a better passer, and a much better defender. No matter who he played with, those hold true.


Also, why don't you discount Big O too then? West was considered his equal in their respective primes. I hope you knew that.
Im starting to think you're 50+?

That would make it even more pathetic of you arguing this, Big O may have been considered West's equal but he didnt have a competitive team around him until some kid named Lew Alcindor played for them.

West played with a HOFer his entire career, thats Fact.

Yet West only won 1 NBA Championship in 1972, on the same team as 4 other HOFers.

[Showtime]

-Wikipedia

Oscar by today's definition would be a Combo Guard, but during his time he was basically a Point Foward at 6'5.

There are people who considered Scottie Pippen a PG, but hes commonly placed at SF due to that being his natural position and his height.
Wiki all you want, but you are defining position by style of play (ex: him scoring a lot of points), and not his role on the court. Just because he scored a lot and was his team's first option doesn't mean he wasn't their lead guard. He handled the ball, he ran the offense, he facilitated, and he scored. There wasn't as clear of a gap between the PG and SG positions like we see today. Today, you have to be 6'5''+ and have certain skills to be a SG, and for the point, it's typical to see 6'4'' and under with different specific skills. This hasn't always been the case. He did score, but he ran the offense and facilitated as well. That makes him the point/lead guard, whatever you want to call it. That's why most people, including those that played him, consider him a point guard.

That's the problem with classifying position by play style, rather than actual positions and roles. Does that mean that Dirk is a shooting guard? Hell no.

[Interminator]

Wiki all you want, but you are defining position by style of play (ex: him scoring a lot of points), and not his role on the court. Just because he scored a lot and was his team's first option doesn't mean he wasn't their lead guard. He handled the ball, he ran the offense, he facilitated, and he scored. There wasn't as clear of a gap between the PG and SG positions like we see today. Today, you have to be 6'5''+ and have certain skills to be a SG, and for the point, it's typical to see 6'4'' and under with different specific skills. This hasn't always been the case. He did score, but he ran the offense and facilitated as well. That makes him the point/lead guard, whatever you want to call it. That's why most people, including those that played him, consider him a point guard.
By that standard is LeBron James a PG or SF?

Oscar by todays standards is a Combo Guard but because he scored a lot of points in that role he would be considered a Shooting Guard, I see your point but im judging him by today's standards not those from the 60's considering Elgin Baylor is commonly listed as a SF rather than PF.

And Dirk is a PF, there is not any questions regarding it other than the fact he is probably the most successful PF with shooting range.

[Allstar24]

Good list, would be perfect if you switched Jerry West and Oscar.

[Showtime]

Oscar by todays standards is a Combo Guard but because he scored a lot of points in that role he would be considered a Shooting Guard, I see your point but im judging him by today's standards not those from the 60's considering Elgin Baylor is commonly listed as a SF rather than PF.

You are judging him only on his scoring prowess. That's the basis for your claim that he's a shooting guard. Well, you totally ignore him handling the ball and facilitating for his team. So if you are going to judge him by what he does, you can't just totally ignore one part of his game and only recognize another. You are only considering one aspect of what he did, and then classifying him as a SG based only upon that limited viewpoint.

You say you are judging him by today's standards (another flawed issue), so wouldn't a guard who facilitates the offense, is the primary ball handler, and leads the team and the league in assists be considered a point guard? Chris Paul lead his team in both scoring and assists. Is he a shooting guard because he scored for his team? What about Zeke, Tiny Archibald, or Tim Hardaway? Are lead guards who both score for their teams and facilitate the offense for their teams just shooting guards or just point guards?

There have been guards who did both. There have been points who were able to score, and other guards and forwards who were able to facilitate. And again, you claim you never saw him play, and yet people who DID, and who played with and against him consider his "guard" position to be among all time POINT guards.

[truethat23]

This should be the Top 5

1. Jordan
2. Bryant
3. West
4. Drexler
5. Iverson

[32jazz]

If you gave Iverson Baylor and Chamberlain and Goodrich they would get at least three titles. West was a great player but he had a fantasy team and could one only win one.

:applause: And in the ONLY Finals his team won he was awful(32 fg%) & was his teams 3rd best option behind the nearly forgotten Goodrich & Wilt(MVP). West was 1-8/9(?) in the NBA finals in which they made so many times because unlike Oscar Robertson/Wilt he did not play in the same Conference as the Celtics. Otherwise he would probably have that one piss poor finals appearance in '72. Imagine if Magic/Kareem lost all 8/9 of their finals appearances or Shaq/Kobe lost all 5 of theirs? They would be called losers/choke artist(like Wilt who actually won 2 rings & 2 'unofficial' Finals MVP's) ,but West gets a pass & is nearly canonized.
Funny how Wilt's/Big O's numbers are dismissed because of pace ,but West's are nearly biblical & hardly ever adjusted for pace when comapring him to others.



I have no real problems with the OP's list ,but I am not a HUGE Dumars fan(great player) & I feel he & West were similiar players & should be ranked together wherever they are ranked. West should never ever be ahead of Clyde Drexler.

[Showtime]

:applause: And in the ONLY Finals his team won he was awful(32 fg%) & was his teams 3rd best option behind the nearly forgotten Goodrich & Wilt(MVP). West was 1-8/9(?) in the NBA finals in which they made so many times because unlike Oscar Robertson/Wilt he did not play in the same Conference as the Celtics. Otherwise he would probably have that one piss poor finals appearance in '72. Imagine if Magic/Kareem lost all 8/9 of their finals appearances or Shaq/Kobe lost all 5 of theirs? They would be called losers/choke artist(like Wilt who actually won 2 rings & 2 'unofficial' Finals MVP's) ,but West gets a pass & is nearly canonized.
Funny how Wilt's/Big O's numbers are dismissed because of pace ,but West's are nearly biblical & hardly ever adjusted for pace when comapring him to others.
*sigh* YOU WILL NEVER GET IT. You say West is a choker because he lost several finals series. What you aren't getting is that a choker isn't just a player who loses. It's a player who doesn't perform when it matters. West, despite losing, CAME UP WITH HUGE PLAYOFF GAMES AND PERFORMANCES and despite playing great, was bested by a superior team. That's not choking. But your stupid ass can't seem to grasp this.

There's a difference between playing great and losing than playing poorly and losing.

And I assume you are a Utah Jazz fan by your username. Under your definition, Stockton and Malone are choke artists and losers who don't deserve to be in discussions of top players at their position.

[chopchop20]

No way is Jerry West #6. That makes this list totally ridiculous.

[Meticode]

Damn. I love Reggie but, the truth hurts...:eek:

This is what happens when you basically play the same position in the same area behind the greatest basketball player of all-time.

[magi]

AI over West? Ehh, speechless.

[IInvented]

Damn wade already on the list after 6 seasons?

[HylianNightmare]

Earl Monroe

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0902/knicks.historical.photos/images/earl-Monroe.3.jpg

[HylianNightmare]

Pistol Pete

http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/bk_AAHX096_8x10~Pete-Maravich-Posters.jpg

[crisoner]

AI over Jerry West? :wtf:

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!


Agreed do not disrespect the logo!!!!

[crisoner]

I got a question....every other player has a great pic etc. cept for Wade/. Why the pic of him in pain?

[Papaya Petee]

Damn wade already on the list after 6 seasons?

Should be higher IMO, Also Clyde is a few spots too high.

I mean Lebron is definitly top 7 all time SF's after 6 seasons isn't he.

[Bruinzzz]

*sigh* YOU WILL NEVER GET IT. You say West is a choker because he lost several finals series. What you aren't getting is that a choker isn't just a player who loses. It's a player who doesn't perform when it matters. West, despite losing, CAME UP WITH HUGE PLAYOFF GAMES AND PERFORMANCES and despite playing great, was bested by a superior team. That's not choking. But your stupid ass can't seem to grasp this.

There's a difference between playing great and losing than playing poorly and losing.

And I assume you are a Utah Jazz fan by your username. Under your definition, Stockton and Malone are choke artists and losers who don't deserve to be in discussions of top players at their position.
Finally someone is defending Tracy McGrady.. Wait wha...

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ AI over West. Wow. :oldlol: Even Drexler over West is a huge stretch imo.

[Showtime]

Finally someone is defending Tracy McGrady.. Wait wha...
Are you seriously comparing McGrady's playoff performances with West's?

[JustinJDW]

The second I saw Allen Iverson over Jerry West, I stopped reading.

[zabuza666]

Kobe is the Jordan-like figure of our era, he has won the most Championships amongst a swingman since Jordan and his play has carried the Lakers to the NBA Finals 5 times, He's done so at age 30 which is very impressive.

It's like Shaq never existed......**** that list is ****!

[Interminator]

It's like Shaq never existed......**** that list is ****!
So if you remove Kobe from the Lakers does Shaq go to 3 NBA Finals between 2000-2003?

[Interminator]

The second I saw Allen Iverson over Jerry West, I stopped reading.
Are you old enough to have watched West play?

[zabuza666]

So if you remove Kobe from the Lakers does Shaq go to 3 NBA Finals between 2000-2003?

Personally I think the Lakers still would have made the finals between 2000 & 2004. Also even if they didn't, that doesn't mean kobe "carried" them. He wasn't even close to being the best player on the team for christ's sake.

[Interminator]

Personally I think the Lakers still would have made the finals between 2000 & 2004. Also even if they didn't, that doesn't mean kobe "carried" them. He wasn't even close to being the best player on the team for christ's sake.
OK.

Shut the **** up, because anyone with a brain knows the Lakers wouldnt have done so without Kobe.

[chopchop20]

Bron Bron has scored 40% of his team's points -- new Conference Finals' record. He passed the "Logo" 39%

Might wanna rethink AI :oldlol: :oldlol:

[zabuza666]

OK.

Shut the **** up, because anyone with a brain knows the Lakers wouldnt have done so without Kobe.

The "I'm right and you're right" stance; because obviously anyone with a different opinion to yours is a dumbass right:rolleyes: I suggest you look at Kobe's averages during those playoffs. He shoots at a horrendous percentage while being the second ****ing option. Shut the **** up!

[truethat23]

Pistol Pete

http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/bk_AAHX096_8x10~Pete-Maravich-Posters.jpg

I thought Pistol Pete was a point guard?

[Interminator]

The "I'm right and you're right" stance; because obviously anyone with a different opinion to yours is a dumbass right:rolleyes: I suggest you look at Kobe's averages during those playoffs. He shoots at a horrendous percentage while being the second ****ing option. Shut the **** up!
So if you just remove Kobe from those Playoff teams they would be better?

How about removing AI from the 76ers Playoff run and see how far they would've gone?:hammerhead:

[phoenix18]

Bron Bron has scored 40% of his team's points -- new Conference Finals' record. He passed the "Logo" 39%

Might wanna rethink AI :oldlol: :oldlol:
AI scored 178 of the 76ers 469 points in the 2001 NBA Finals. Thats 38% of his teams points. And thats without a second prolific scorer by his side.

[Showtime]

So if you just remove Kobe from those Playoff teams they would be better?

How about removing AI from the 76ers Playoff run and see how far they would've gone?:hammerhead:
You can't possibly equate Kobe's value to those teams to AI's impact on those teams. AI was a one man offense.

And on this topic, I feel that the Lakers would have won with any other good SG in Kobe's position.

Ray Allen, AI, VC, McGrady, Eddie Jones, Finley, etc. all are players who I feel would have won championships with Shaq in Kobe's place.

[Younggrease]

You can't possibly equate Kobe's value to those teams to AI's impact on those teams. AI was a one man offense.

And on this topic, I feel that the Lakers would have won with any other good SG in Kobe's position.

Ray Allen, AI, VC, McGrady, Eddie Jones, Finley, etc. all are players who I feel would have won championships with Shaq in Kobe's place.

Too bad it doesnt matter what you feel

[Showtime]

Too bad it doesnt matter what you feel
Hey moron, this is a damn topic of discussion. I don't know if you realize that a forum is for discussing topics and giving opinions. He was talking about Kobe's importance with LA's championship teams, so I can give my opinion in response to his. If you don't like opinions, then I suggest you find an alternate activity to occupy your time.

And now I will go back to ignoring your posts.

[phoenix18]

Too bad it doesnt matter what you feel
:lol :roll: :D Too bad your blinded to the truth.

[32jazz]

*sigh* YOU WILL NEVER GET IT. You say West is a choker because he lost several finals series. What you aren't getting is that a choker isn't just a player who loses. It's a player who doesn't perform when it matters. West, despite losing, CAME UP WITH HUGE PLAYOFF GAMES AND PERFORMANCES and despite playing great, was bested by a superior team. That's not choking. But your stupid ass can't seem to grasp this.

There's a difference between playing great and losing than playing poorly and losing.

And I assume you are a Utah Jazz fan by your username. Under your definition, Stockton and Malone are choke artists and losers who don't deserve to be in discussions of top players at their position.

Go ahead & assume.:rolleyes:


Several? Several? Several? Are u kidding? Get real. The man lost in 7 or 8 NBA Finals for God's sake & the only ONE he/his team won he absolutely 'CHOKED'(32% from the field while Goodrich performed brilliantly & Wilt won his 2nd MVP) & is still embarrassed about his play today. West was the third best player on that team & he still seems unhappy about his only ring because he knew he had choked.

If he is not a 'choke artist' since you are getting into semantics at best he is a gotdamn 'loser'(basketball). Wilt won 2 unofficial MVP awards & was labeled a 'loser' ,but West was/is given a complete pass.:confusedshrug:

Hell Baylor had taken the Lakers to the Finals BEFORE West ever made it to the NBA & West could still not help this team get over the top.

My point is if anyone in the history of the NBA should ever be labeled a choke artist or loser (as many unfairly are in a team sport) Jerry West should be the damn poster boy for losers/choke artist. And if you wanna call Webber,Ewing,Malone, Barkley, or whomever, losers or choke artist,so be it:confusedshrug: just be sure you put the biggest loser of them all at the head of the damn class ,Mr Choke(West).
But he won't just like the media in the 60's for some reason gave him a pass for losing to the Celtics (unlike Wilt/Big O whom they harshly criticized/labeled)people today still do.

[Interminator]

Ray Allen, AI, VC, McGrady, Eddie Jones, Finley, etc. all are players who I feel would have won championships with Shaq in Kobe's place.
How is 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, and 6.1 APG replacable?

Ray Allen is a great shooter but his he as good of a scorer as Kobe is?No.
AI is a great scorer but there is no damn way Phil Jackson would've given AI the green light to take as many shots as he wants.

VC,McGrady blah blah wake me when either reaches a CF.

Jones & Shaq had their chances, they rightfully made an upgrade to Kobe at SG and they took the next step.

[phoenix18]

How is 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, and 6.1 APG replacable?

Ray Allen is a great shooter but his he as good of a scorer as Kobe is?No.
AI is a great scorer but there is no damn way Phil Jackson would've given AI the green light to take as many shots as he wants.

VC,McGrady blah blah wake me when either reaches a CF.

Jones & Shaq had their chances, they rightfully made an upgrade to Kobe at SG and they took the next step.
Ray Allen and Shaq would have destroyed everyone. Its not always about stats, Shaq carried the Lakers, Kobe just chipped in. When Shaq was in his prime, no could stop him. His presence was felt all over the court.

[Interminator]

Ray Allen and Shaq would have destroyed everyone. Its not always about stats, Shaq carried the Lakers, Kobe just chipped in. When Shaq was in his prime, no could stop him. His presence was felt all over the court.
I dont think chipping in is going for 29 PPG throughout the Playoffs.

Kobe literally provided the other scoring, considering outside of arguably Fisher there was not anybody else who could've put up more than 12 PPG or been able to replace Kobe's impact on those teams.

Kobe was a consensus #1 option in a #2 option role for the Lakers.

[Showtime]

How is 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, and 6.1 APG replacable?

Well, let me address that:

First off, I noticed that you used what is arguably Kobe's greatest playoff year for those numbers. But I never specified specific years. I said those other players would have helped LA win a championship, which includes the 2000 and 2002 campaigns.

While Kobe's performances that year helped LA cruise through the postseason with only SINGLE loss, that same level wouldn't be necessary to win a championship for LA. Those other players wouldn't need to duplicate the 1 loss record to win a ring, which leads me to my next point.

Secondly, I didn't say they would have the exact stats, but I did say I thought the team would still win. There's a difference between duplicating the exact production, and the impact they would have in winning games. I feel that playing alongside Shaq with that team, that those other SG's would have been able to produce and help LA win a championship. Also, some of the players I mentioned had the talent at that time to play at that same level as Kobe, especially with less pressure from playing with Shaq.


Ray Allen is a great shooter but his he as good of a scorer as Kobe is?No.

This is a player who dropped 51 in a playoff game this year, at the age of 33, in his 13th year on the downside of his career, and that came mainly on jumpers. This also in the context of not having the most dominating post presence to take pressure off of him, and he score mainly on shooting jumpshots. When he was in his prime, he was more of a threat to penetrate than he is now.

I have no doubt Allen could do enough on offense and do so efficiently at a level that would result in a ring or three. His defense, however, wouldn't be up to young Kobe's level.


AI is a great scorer but there is no damn way Phil Jackson would've given AI the green light to take as many shots as he wants.

He wouldn't need to shoot as much on LA as he would in Philly. And again, he would have FAR less pressure on him which would result in better looks from the perimeter. A Shaq - AI combo in the early 2000's would be very effective. If AI can carry an offense to the finals (albeit in a weak conference), why couldn't he do the same as part of a far more potent and powerful team?


VC,McGrady blah blah wake me when either reaches a CF.

I guess you don't understand the point. I'm putting these players in Kobe's place in the early 2000's, not asking them to carry a team on their own. If you can't grasp the changes of that situation, then I can't really add anything because you just don't get it.


Jones & Shaq had their chances, they rightfully made an upgrade to Kobe at SG and they took the next step.

Oh c'mon. Those teams weren't the same. He didn't have the veteran leaders at the point like Harper and Shaw, with the Fisher who actually hit clutch shots. He didn't have Glen Rice to take even more pressure of him. By that time, Kobe was already being groomed as his replacement and he wasn't a feature of the offense.

Jones in the early 2000's was just as good of a defender and was a great shooter and scorer. If he was on those better teams, and replaced Kobe, there's nothing that would limit him from doing serious damage. Those were better and deeper teams that were better defensively than the late 90's teams Jones was a part of

[phoenix18]

I dont think chipping in is going for 29 PPG throughout the Playoffs.

Kobe literally provided the other scoring, considering outside of arguably Fisher there was not anybody else who could've put up more than 12 PPG or been able to replace Kobe's impact on those teams.

Kobe was a consensus #1 option in a #2 option role for the Lakers.
So you are telling me that AI,VC or Ray Allen couldnt play with Shaq? Guys that led their teams deep into the playoffs during Shaq's prime? I am not saying that they would be better than Kobe, but, Ray is a great player and more than capable of scoring 29 PPG with Shaq. Hell, he scored twenty plus with KG and Paul Pierce. AI scored a 179 points in five games(35.8 PPG) against these Lakers, as the number one option.

[Younggrease]

So you are telling me that AI,VC or Ray Allen couldnt play with Shaq? Guys that led their teams deep into the playoffs during Shaq's prime? I am not saying that they would be better than Kobe, but, Ray is a great player and more than capable of scoring 29 PPG with Shaq. Hell, he scored twenty plus with KG and Paul Pierce. AI scored a 179 points in five games(35.8 PPG) against these Lakers, as the number one option.

You really think Ray Allen would be able to get shots 1v.1 with his limited ball handling like the triangle requires when it comes to late in the shot clock situations...They would have to run a different offense or Ray with Ray running off more screens and do you reallty want to rely on that.

[Interminator]

Well, let me address that:

First off, I noticed that you used what is arguably Kobe's greatest playoff year for those numbers. But I never specified specific years. I said those other players would have helped LA win a championship, which includes the 2000 and 2002 campaigns.

While Kobe's performances that year helped LA cruise through the postseason with only SINGLE loss, that same level wouldn't be necessary to win a championship for LA. Those other players wouldn't need to duplicate the 1 loss record to win a ring, which leads me to my next point.

Secondly, I didn't say they would have the exact stats, but I did say I thought the team would still win. There's a difference between duplicating the exact production, and the impact they would have in winning games. I feel that playing alongside Shaq with that team, that those other SG's would have been able to produce and help LA win a championship. Also, some of the players I mentioned had the talent at that time to play at that same level as Kobe, especially with less pressure from playing with Shaq.
Thats your opinion.:cheers:




This is a player who dropped 51 in a playoff game this year, at the age of 33, in his 13th year on the downside of his career, and that came mainly on jumpers. This also in the context of not having the most dominating post presence to take pressure off of him, and he score mainly on shooting jumpshots. When he was in his prime, he was more of a threat to penetrate than he is now.

I have no doubt Allen could do enough on offense and do so efficiently at a level that would result in a ring or three. His defense, however, wouldn't be up to young Kobe's level.
Allen's bread & butter comes from the perimeter, if he has a bad game or is taken out of the game by good zone defense he becomes a liability on the court.
This is why hes often criticized for "choking" during some Playoff games, when hes not on point when you need him to be the team as a whole will suffer.




He wouldn't need to shoot as much on LA as he would in Philly. And again, he would have FAR less pressure on him which would result in better looks from the perimeter. A Shaq - AI combo in the early 2000's would be very effective. If AI can carry an offense to the finals (albeit in a weak conference), why couldn't he do the same as part of a far more potent and powerful team?
AI would still have pressure on him considering at that time he was the premier guard in basketball, AI is not an efficient enough of a scorer to shoot less and maintain his average, if he was given the Green light he would still have taken as many shots.Also how would he have fit sliding over to PG in a triangle offense?

Iverson's a great scorer but his numbers were enhanced by him playing in a structured offense built around him.







Oh c'mon. Those teams weren't the same. He didn't have the veteran leaders at the point like Harper and Shaw, with the Fisher who actually hit clutch shots. He didn't have Glen Rice to take even more pressure of him. By that time, Kobe was already being groomed as his replacement and he wasn't a feature of the offense.

Jones in the early 2000's was just as good of a defender and was a great shooter and scorer. If he was on those better teams, and replaced Kobe, there's nothing that would limit him from doing serious damage. Those were better and deeper teams that were better defensively than the late 90's teams Jones was a part of
They won 61 Games with Shaq/Jones and Utah dismantled them in the WCF because they didnt have another great scorer who could take the pressure off of Shaq, which is why Kobe's emergence was so crucial to the Lakers finally winning a title.

[Showtime]

Several? Several? Several? Are u kidding? Get real. The man lost in 7 or 8 NBA Finals for God's sake & the only ONE he/his team won he absolutely 'CHOKED'(32% from the field while Goodrich performed brilliantly & Wilt won his 2nd MVP) & is still embarrassed about his play today. West was the third best player on that team & he still seems unhappy about his only ring because he knew he had choked.

I already addressed this. There's a difference between playing great and losing to a superior squad than playing below your level, not showing up in big games, and losing. All you have is one series where he didn't play at a high level, and then you point to all his finals losses. Many of those losses he played great, and was the best guy on the floor. You don't understand the meaning of 'choking'.


If he is not a 'choke artist' since you are getting into semantics at best he is a gotdamn 'loser'(basketball). Wilt won 2 unofficial MVP awards & was labeled a 'loser' ,but West was/is given a complete pass.:confusedshrug:

You don't understand the meaning of 'choking'.


Hell Baylor had taken the Lakers to the Finals BEFORE West ever made it to the NBA & West could still not help this team get over the top.

You don't understand the meaning of 'choking'.


My point is if anyone in the history of the NBA should ever be labeled a choke artist or loser (as many unfairly are in a team sport) Jerry West should be the damn poster boy for losers/choke artist. And if you wanna call Webber,Ewing,Malone, Barkley, or whomever, losers or choke artist,so be it:confusedshrug: just be sure you put the biggest loser of them all at the head of the damn class ,Mr Choke(West).
But he won't just like the media in the 60's for some reason gave him a pass for losing to the Celtics (unlike Wilt/Big O whom they harshly criticized/labeled)people today still do.

You don't understand the meaning of 'choking'.

[Interminator]

So you are telling me that AI,VC or Ray Allen couldnt play with Shaq? Guys that led their teams deep into the playoffs during Shaq's prime? I am not saying that they would be better than Kobe, but, Ray is a great player and more than capable of scoring 29 PPG with Shaq. Hell, he scored twenty plus with KG and Paul Pierce. AI scored a 179 points in five games(35.8 PPG) against these Lakers, as the number one option.
If you replace AI,VC, or Ray with Kobe do you not think he would average more than 29 PPG?

[phoenix18]

If you replace AI,VC, or Ray with Kobe do you not think he would average more than 29 PPG?
If AI was on the Lakers and Kobe was on the 76ers, Kobe would not average 35.8 PPG in the 2001 NBA Finals.

[Showtime]

Allen's bread & butter comes from the perimeter, if he has a bad game or is taken out of the game by good zone defense he becomes a liability on the court.

This is why hes often criticized for "choking" during some Playoff games, when hes not on point when you need him to be the team as a whole will suffer.

Too bad nobody played zone in the early 2000's, and hardly anybody plays it today.

And in regards to your latter point: you fail to recognize the difference in teams. Allen would get less pressure and more open looks from the double teams Shaq faced, and if he was keyed in on, like Kobe, he could pass to other shooters left open on the perimeter. Why do you think Kobe got so many assists? It's because of the coverages that left open perimeter shooters when they had to double.


AI would still have pressure on him considering at that time he was the premier guard in basketball, AI is not an efficient enough of a scorer to shoot less and maintain his average, if he was given the Green light he would still have taken as many shots.Also how would he have fit sliding over to PG in a triangle offense?

Iverson's a great scorer but his numbers were enhanced by him playing in a structured offense built around him.


Once again: he doesn't need to duplicate his average in Philly. He just needs to do enough on offense to win, which I believe he could on those Laker teams. He would definitely be a potent enough threat to go off, and let's not forget Kobe didn't exactly set the world on fire with his perimeter efficiency. He was jacking up ill advised jumpers as well, so let's not act like AI wouldn't score on those teams.

With the doubles that came to Shaq, AI would either be left open, or face a single defender, and he has the ability to create a shot and exploit a single defender. But once again, the matchups and his defensive play would be the difference maker.


They won 61 Games with Shaq/Jones and Utah dismantled them in the WCF because they didnt have another great scorer who could take the pressure off of Shaq, which is why Kobe's emergence was so crucial to the Lakers finally winning a title.

Well, that's your opinion :cheers:

[32jazz]

I already addressed this. There's a difference between playing great and losing to a superior squad than playing below your level, not showing up in big games, and losing. All you have is one series where he didn't play at a high level, and then you point to all his finals losses. Many of those losses he played great, and was the best guy on the floor. You don't understand the meaning of 'choking.

I understand losing & West was one of the biggest losers in the history of the League & you can leave out the semantics. Fortunately for him the media gave him a complete pass unlike Wilt(who actually won more & performed better according to his 2 unofficial Finals MVP's) or Big O etc,......Not unusual for the era.

Thanks to Gail Goodrich & Wilt he at least won a single ring. Funny how understanding Mr Choke(West) apologists are when it comes to good players losing to better teams & critical of others.

[nbastatus]

kobe and ray on the list :bowdown:
has to be the best list!

[Showtime]

I understand losing & West was one of the biggest losers in the history of the League & you can leave out the semantics.

It's not semantics, it's the crux of your argument. You obviously can't grasp what it means to choke.

And the biggest loser in the history of the league wouldn't be able to sniff the finals, let alone make it to several ones. So West doesn't apply there either.

[Spudjjay]

This is a player who dropped 51 in a playoff game this year, at the age of 33, in his 13th year on the downside of his career, and that came mainly on jumpers. This also in the context of not having the most dominating post presence to take pressure off of him, and he score mainly on shooting jumpshots. When he was in his prime, he was more of a threat to penetrate than he is now.

I have no doubt Allen could do enough on offense and do so efficiently at a level that would result in a ring or three. His defense, however, wouldn't be up to young Kobe's level.

Ugh. He did that in 3OTs. He almost played the equivalent to a game and a 1/2 to notch 50 points. Plus, the bulls weren't playing any defense on him.

[Showtime]

Ugh. He did that in 3OTs. He almost played the equivalent to a game and a 1/2 to notch 50 points. Plus, the bulls weren't playing any defense on him.
You missed the point, which was in the context of playing in his prime with Shaq.

He did play 58 minutes that game, but he did so under the circumstances that limited him. He was old. He was doing it on jumpers. He got open by outrunning Ben freaking Gordon who should have no trouble staying with him. Now, if he can do that, why can't he produce with the Lakers in the early 2000's when he was:

A) younger and more athletic
B) was more diverse of a scorer
C) would have more open looks with Shaq

That was the context of bringing up that game. A prime Allen wouldn't have any problem scoring if today's Allen, under those circumstances, could put up 51.

Now stfu because we all know that your viewpoint on this matter is influenced by your severe PP obsession. You've continually bashed Allen because he's often played better than Pierce and you can't handle that.

[32jazz]

It's not semantics, it's the crux of your argument. You obviously can't grasp what it means to choke.

And the biggest loser in the history of the league wouldn't be able to sniff the finals, let alone make it to several ones. So West doesn't apply there either.

No the crux of my arguments is that Wilt/Big O were unquestionably the best individual players on the court when they were beaten by the Celtics. Wilt absolutely destroyed Russell ,but he lost & is/was labelled a 'loser' & Big O was questioned also. But West gets a big fat pass:confusedshrug: Don't understand the media bias there & some writer's have honestly pointed this out & tried to correct this today.

Just because Mr Choke(West) was lucky enough to be in the opposite conference as the Celtics & defeat two other teams(in a four team conference) to make the Finals impresses me little. Baylor did that(make the Finals) before West ever arrived & even took the Celtic's to 7 games.

It's also absolutely absurd to compare this man to Kobe when he wouldn't even dare to suggest pubicly that he is on par with him & admits Kobe surpassed him years ago & is in the argument for greatest all around & not just SG.

Some have suggested that Kobe needs to do more to surpass West (like win a ring as his teams 'unquestionably' best player) when West never even came close to accomplishing such a thing.:roll: His only win was as a very disappointing 3rd option who self admittedly choked .Mr Choke is obviously judged by different standards stemming from those biased media perceptions of the 60's.

If any player in the history of the League should be labeled 'loser'(very unfair) West should top the list.

[Bigsmoke]

Iverson is better than Reggie and Joe Dumars?

yea ok... :rolleyes:

[Showtime]

No the crux of my arguments is that Wilt/Big O were unquestionably the best individual players on the court when they were beaten by the Celtics. Wilt absolutely destroyed Russell ,but he lost & is/was labelled a 'loser' & Big O was questioned also. But West gets a big fat pass:confusedshrug: Don't understand the media bias there & some writer's have honestly pointed this out & tried to correct this today.

Just because Mr Choke(West) was lucky enough to be in the opposite conference as the Celtics & defeat two other teams(in a four team conference) to make the Finals impresses me little. Baylor did that(make the Finals) before West ever arrived & even took the Celtic's to 7 games.

It's also absolutely absurd to compare this man to Kobe when he wouldn't even dare to suggest pubicly that he is on par with him & admits Kobe surpassed him years ago & is in the argument for greatest all around & not just SG.

Some have suggested that Kobe needs to do more to surpass West (like win a ring as his teams 'unquestionably' best player) when West never even came close to accomplishing such a thing.:roll: His only win was as a very disappointing 3rd option who self admittedly choked .Mr Choke is obviously judged by different standards stemming from those biased media perceptions of the 60's.

If any player in the history of the League should be labeled 'loser'(very unfair) West should top the list.
You obviously don't understand the difference between losing and playing poorly.

[Dasher]

Iverson is better than Reggie and Joe Dumars?

yea ok... :rolleyes:Yes, and neither Reggie or Dumars are actually Top 10 SGs of All Time.

[32jazz]

You obviously don't understand the difference between losing and playing poorly.

Well at least you are admitting he was a loser. Wilt/Big O played extremely well against the Celtics & both were the best players on the court. :confusedshrug: They were labeled losers/chokers by a very biased media ,but West got a pass. Just that simple. He choked in his ONLY win.Period.

West admitted Kobe passed him years ago so it is ridulous to hold Kobe to a different standard than Mr Loser/choke '(if I judge him by standards other players like Wilt are judged).

West is not silly enough to even think himself on Kobe's level so it is already

Magic
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq(is passed or will be surpassed due to lack of time)
Baylor/West

[Abraham Lincoln]

Not a single mention of Greer?

Iverson behind the likes of Miller, Allen, & Dumars?

[Meticode]

My list wouldn't include Oscar. He played 3 positions no doubt, but the guy averaged 9.5 APG his entire career. He's a point guard first in my book.

When Oscar coming off my list, that would squeeze Reggie Miller in there.

[Abraham Lincoln]

^Indeed. It shows just how much responsibility Big O had and how well rounded his offensive game was, though there was no legit distinction between the guard positions at the time. And I must emphasize again the shame of not seeing any recognition shown towards the Bulldog. A consummate professional that was highly respected by his peers being the iron men always bringing the lunch pail to work. Not to neglect that in addition to his mid range shooting ability (apparently a near 75% shooter from the top of the key), he was one of the very top screeners to ever play the guard position in the NBA, couple others off the top being Stockton & Big O. He was a 7X All NBA 2nd teamer (behind Jerry & Big O) and led the greatest NBA team ever in playoff scoring, averaging 27/6/5. There is no excuse to leave him outside the top 10. None at all.

[ThaRegul8r]

^Indeed. It shows just how much responsibility Big O had and how well rounded his offensive game was, though there was no legit distinction between the guard positions at the time.

What's with this?

Wilt Chamberlain:

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

OJ Mayo will be on this list consensus wise in 10 years book it.

[ZeN]

. Jerry West is # 3.

The only player to win Finals MVP on a loosing team.. FTW.

[Shep]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. Tracy McGrady
8. Hal Greer
9. Sam Jones
10. Bill Sharman

[Killuminati90]

I dont like this list, neither Drexler was better player than AI or Allen is/was better than Wade. Mine would be:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Oscar Robertson (considering him a SG)
5. Allen Iverson
6. Dwayne Wade
7. Clyde Drexler
8. George Gervin
9. Tracy Mcgrady
10. Reggie Miller

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]What's with this?

Wilt Chamberlain:

[Niquesports]

That is a valid argument for many the players of the 60's and 70's. Most players of that era were expected to score, rebound, pass, and play defense. I have long said that players like Rodman would not have played in that era.

Take a look at the centers of that era...most all of them had 15+ foot range. Compare footage of Reed, or Lanier, or Beatty, or Bellamy, or even the second tier centers like Dierking and Counts, with the majority of the centers of today.

Granted, Nowitzski (who plays forward), or Gasol (who is the best offensive player with either hand that I have ever seen), or Garnett, have been the exceptions...but then you have players like Bynum, or Ben Wallace, or Dampier...none of whom could hit a shot from 10 ft.

I'm sorry, but if Bynum is considered one of the better big men in the game today...can you imagine what Chamberlain would do to the league today??
This is why the argument that the league in the 60's 70's was weak is so lame. Night in Night out at least 1 team had a HOF C on the floor. Today I only see Howard as a sure HOF'er of the Centers. Todays game is far more athletic but there are far too many teams and the overall talent has been watered down

[TennesseeFan]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Reggie Miller
4. Clyde Drexler
5. George Gevin
6. Jerry West
7. Allen Iverson
8. Pete Maravich
9. Dwyane Wade
10. Vince Carter

[AirJordan&Magic]

I didn't watch A LOT of 90's basketball but I wonder how Reggie Miller got so much hype? I mean he never won MVP, or and chips. He didn't have any dominant stats or anything. And I doubt he was as fun to watch as Jordan and Drexler or then Kobe, Vince, and AI. He played on a small market Indiana team and when he made the finals he wasn't the best player on his team.

If you look at his stats only, he reminds me of a present day Joe Johnson but it looks like Joe had better stats too.

That's a legit question, no hating.

Believe it or not. It was the 1994 Knicks series that really made Reggie Miller who he is.

I honestly wouldn't rank Reggie Miller higher than 70 on an all time list, but for some reason, people hear about his "legendary" performance vs the Knicks and he somehow ends up in the top 30 of people's all time list. :confusedshrug:

[Abraham Lincoln]

[quote=ThaRegul8r]What's with this?

Wilt Chamberlain:

[AirJordan&Magic]

Top 10 sg in Nba history.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West

I honestly think that there should be no argument as to who the top 3 is.

4. Walt Frazier
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. George Gervin
8. Reggie Miller
9. Dwyane Wade
10. Pete Maravich, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, or Tracy McGrady.

I'm not understanding why people are putting Oscar Robertson in these lists. He had the ability to play 1-3, but his natural position was pg.

[L.Kizzle]

Top Ten: In No Order.


Hal Greer
Sam Jones
Jerry West
George Gervin
Clyde Drexler
Michael Jordan
Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant


Of course, that's only eight. The other two you would pick between these eight ...


Earl Monroe
Pete Maravich
David Thompson
Sidney Moncrief
Joe Dumars
Reggie Miller
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade

[Niquesports]

Top Ten: In No Order.


Hal Greer
Sam Jones
Jerry West
George Gervin
Clyde Drexler
Michael Jordan
Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant


Of course, that's only eight. The other two you would pick between these eight ...


Earl Monroe
Pete Maravich
David Thompson
Sidney Moncrief
Joe Dumars
Reggie Miller
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade

Kizzle I may not always agree with you but usually respect your post how can you list 16 SG and not list Frazier and if your making West a PG where is Gail Goodrich?

[G.O.A.T]

^He has West on the list and I'm sure Frazier as a PG.

[L.Kizzle]

Kizzle I may not always agree with you but usually respect your post how can you list 16 SG and not list Frazier and if your making West a PG where is Gail Goodrich?
Frazier is a PG. In his earlier years Dick Barnett and Cazzie Russell were the 2 guards than later on Earl Monroe came in.

I forgot about Gail, but he was more of a PG.

[Niquesports]

^He has West on the list and I'm sure Frazier as a PG.


This is why so many of the younger posters need to say I love basketball what can the old guys teach me. The Reg. just posted many of the older players saying there was no PG?SG there were just guards lokk at some of the combos tell me who played what

Hal Griee/Guy Rodgers
Earl Monroe/Frazier
West Goodrich
Slone /Van Linier
Archie Calrk/Fred Davis

You cant call West a SG and Frazier a PG

[L.Kizzle]

This is why so many of the younger posters need to say I love basketball what can the old guys teach me. The Reg. just posted many of the older players saying there was no PG?SG there were just guards lokk at some of the combos tell me who played what

Hal Griee/Guy Rodgers
Earl Monroe/Frazier
West Goodrich
Slone /Van Linier
Archie Calrk/Fred Davis

You cant call West a SG and Frazier a PG
You can't really call Clyde a PG, but he probably did most of the ball handling and setting up when playing with Cazzie Russell and Barnett.

[Niquesports]

Frazier is a PG. In his earlier years Dick Barnett and Cazzie Russell were the 2 guards than later on Earl Monroe came in.

I forgot about Gail, but he was more of a PG.


What are you using as the what makes 1 a pG and the other a SG cause often times with the KNicks it was Frazier playing off the ball and getting points same with Goodrich he was the leading scorer on that great Laker team.As Frazier was by far the leading scorer among the guards on the Knicks title teams?

[phoenix18]

I said some dumb shit in this thread.

[L.Kizzle]

What are you using as the what makes 1 a pG and the other a SG cause often times with the KNicks it was Frazier playing off the ball and getting points same with Goodrich he was the leading scorer on that great Laker team.As Frazier was by far the leading scorer among the guards on the Knicks title teams?
You could say the same thing in the 80 goin' all the way up to the 90s.

Clyde Drexler in his ealy years would take the ball down court. You had Moncrief and Paul, Gus Williams and DJ, who was the PG, who was the SG?

[Niquesports]

You could say the same thing in the 80 goin' all the way up to the 90s.

Clyde Drexler in his ealy years would take the ball down court. You had Moncrief and Paul, Gus Williams and DJ, who was the PG, who was the SG?


I think it was pretty clear that Porter was the guy that ran the offesne and Drex was the guy they work to get shots same with the Bucks in Buckner and MMoncrief. With the Sonics its a little more like the Frazier/Monroe Gus was like Barron Davis a scorer but Dj would tak as many shots. May a list needs to be done of best combo guards then everyone would have to be listed in the top 10 you would have 2 players from the same team.

[L.Kizzle]

I think it was pretty clear that Porter was the guy that ran the offesne and Drex was the guy they work to get shots same with the Bucks in Buckner and MMoncrief. With the Sonics its a little more like the Frazier/Monroe Gus was like Barron Davis a scorer but Dj would tak as many shots. May a list needs to be done of best combo guards then everyone would have to be listed in the top 10 you would have 2 players from the same team.
I'm talkin about Drexler before Porter came. He might have even been the PG at that time. I seen a game against Dallas from 85 a while back and he looked like a PG. But yeah, we can come up with a list of combos.

[Niquesports]

I'm talkin about Drexler before Porter came. He might have even been the PG at that time. I seen a game against Dallas from 85 a while back and he looked like a PG. But yeah, we can come up with a list of combos.


Im not sure what Drex your talking about he was always considered a 2 some times a 3 thats the main reason they took Bowie instead of Jordan saying they already had a 2 in Drex. But go ahead this should be interesting start a Combo thread

[L.Kizzle]

Im not sure what Drex your talking about he was always considered a 2 some times a 3 thats the main reason they took Bowie instead of Jordan saying they already had a 2 in Drex. But go ahead this should be interesting start a Combo thread
His assist number were very high his first few years in the league (over 9 in the playoffs his second season), and I did see him set up a lot, I don't know.