Is LeBron James already better than Tim Duncan ever was?

[hall of fame]

Is current LeBron James a better player than prime Tim Duncan? Would you rather have current LeBron than Tim Duncan at his absolute peak?

I say yes easily. LeBron James is already the most dominant player of this century.

[D-Rose]

Tim Duncan rings: 4

LeBron James rings: 0

Duncan is the greatest PF of all time.

LeBron isn't the greatest SF of all time.

end thread/

[plowking]

Duncan carried a horrible team to the finals and won. Worse then Lebron's teammates in 07 and 08.

[TheSlimViper]

Is current LeBron James a better player than prime Tim Duncan? Would you rather have current LeBron than Tim Duncan at his absolute peak?

I say yes easily. LeBron James is already the most dominant player of this century.

Its like you're some horrifying fusion of Charles Barkley and Marv Albert.

[haterofhaters]

If the OP is serious and not a gimmick, then I question what this site is coming to. This thread should be closed and deleted immediately.

[tastystaci]

Where do these guys come from? You do realize Lebron has never won a chip and he's losing this series despite shooting over 20 free throws per game on bogus call after bogus call...right?

OP=massive tool

[Kebab Stall]

There's a difference between dominating a game and winning a game, give me the guy who won.

That would be..........

*long pause*

........Tim Duncan!

Congratulations Tim, come on down!


Seriously though, it's not really a fair argument. Lebron is definitly more gifted in terms of ability (e.g. physically and athletically), but Duncan is far more talented in terms of skill.

Give Lebron a few more years and the chance to try and win a few championships and then it will be a more fair comparison.

[hall of fame]

What is wrong with saying LeBron > Duncan?

LeBron had a 66 win season (more than Duncan has ever had in his life) with a worse team than anything Duncan had.

Tony Parker, Emanuel Ginobili = all-star teammates. LeBron James would sweep his way to the finals if he had Duncan's great all-star teammates, role players, AND legendary head coach.

[rs98762001]

I say yes easily. LeBron James is already the most dominant player of this century.
He's the most dominant player of all time in any sport. No one else comes close.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

THE APPROPRIATE QUESTION to ask is:

Is this 24 year old Lebron better than a 24 year TD, or a 24 year old MJ?

[Mdog1]

You know this is a great question. I'm not sure if it is one that can be answered easily. On the one hand you have the greatest PF of all time, and a top 8 player ever. But on the other hand you have a player that is already on the greatest statistical level any other player has ever achieved. I'm not sure which I would take. I guess it depends on team needs rather than which player you would rather have.

If your team looks like this then you will probably take LeBron James over Duncan.

Jason Kidd
Mikael Pietrus
LeBron James
Andris Beidrins
Shaq

But if your team looks like this then you will have no choice but to take Duncan over LeBron.

Mo Williams
Danny Granger
Trevor Ariza
Tim Duncan
Big Z

The team with dominant Big guys doesn't need Tim Duncan, but the team with a dominant wing player does need a Duncan. So really it is based on needs IMO.

[justin43]

Is current LeBron James a better player than prime Tim Duncan? Would you rather have current LeBron than Tim Duncan at his absolute peak?

I say yes easily. LeBron James is already the most dominant player of this century.

http://www.kaitaia.com/funny/g2/d/16589-2/picard-facepalm.jpg

[Atomic DOG]

Tim Duncan rings: 4

LeBron James rings: 0

Duncan is the greatest PF of all time.

LeBron isn't the greatest SF of all time.

end thread/


i nominate this for worst response ever in an ISH thread.

[tastystaci]

:rolleyes: Wow, the Stern/Espn promo machine is actually working on some of these retards. To even think such a thing is so mentally challenged.

[Atomic DOG]

What is wrong with saying LeBron > Duncan?
.


OMGZ because lebron hasnt won a championship in a game thats a team sport!

dont you know man?? players are only as good as how many "chips" they've won!

Russell > Horry > Duncan = Shaq > Kobe > Kenny Smith > Kevin Garnett > Lebron James!

also, didnt you know that Kevin Garnett was an overrated, no-good player up until last year? He suddenly got a bunch of times better and developed mad skills in like his 11th season and thats the reason he won a 'chip.' It had nothing to do with his team, his conference, his coach, his organization, or his era.

"Chips" = the ONLY way to measure a player



/end retardation.

[hall of fame]

OMGZ because lebron hasnt won a championship in a game thats a team sport!

dont you know man?? players are only as good as how many "chips" they've won!

Russell > Horry > Duncan = Shaq > Kobe > Kenny Smith > Kevin Garnett > Lebron James!

also, didnt you know that Kevin Garnett was an overrated, no-good player up until last year? He suddenly got a bunch of times better and developed mad skills in like his 11th season and thats the reason he won a 'chip.' It had nothing to do with his team, his conference, his coach, his organization, or his era.

"Chips" = the ONLY way to measure a player



/end retardation.Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[tastystaci]

When your a consensus GOAT PF and you have 4 rings, then yes, you are better than a ringless Lebron. Not to mention Duncan and the Spurs totally smashing Lebron's Cavs in the '07 Finals. It's embarrassing that this even has to be broken down for you, but the stupid are rampant on ISH.

[dwermlakers24]

THE APPROPRIATE QUESTION to ask is:

Is this 24 year old Lebron better than a 24 year TD, or a 24 year old MJ?

yes that is right.. i mean of course lebron looks better than duncan right now...but maybe not when duncan was 24...i just dont know

[Kingwillball]

Of Course lebron is the better player,Duncan just had alot better team and coach around him.

[ScolaFan]

Tim Duncan rings: 4

LeBron James rings: 0

Duncan is the greatest PF of all time.

LeBron isn't the greatest SF of all time.

end thread/

:rockon:


What a stupid thread.

[Mikaiel]

When your a consensus GOAT PF and you have 4 rings, then yes, you are better than a ringless Lebron. Not to mention Duncan and the Spurs totally smashing Lebron's Cavs in the '07 Finals. It's embarrassing that this even has to be broken down for you, but the stupid are rampant on ISH.

How is that embarrassing when his team overachieved to get there and LeBron was younger than most rookies in the league at that time ?

[tastystaci]

How is that embarrassing when his team overachieved to get there and LeBron was younger than most rookies in the league at that time ?

I would think being completely dominated and swept 4-0 WOULD be embarrassing, but that's not what I said, you should read a little closer.

Duncan>Lebron

That's all I'm saying.

[ShannonElements]

How is that embarrassing when his team overachieved to get there and LeBron was younger than most rookies in the league at that time ?

Because the Spurs won? Emphatically?

Spurs won, dominantly.

Cavs lost, embarrassingly.

If you make it to the finals, then lose while getting punked, it's embarrassing.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

THE APPROPRIATE QUESTION to ask is:

Is this 24 year old Lebron better than a 24 year TD, or a 24 year old MJ?

OP,
change your thread (or create a new one) with this ^^^^.
THEN see what kind of response you get. note: MJ fans will go crazy.

[Fatal9]

The answer here is Lebron. As much as I like Duncan, he never dominated to this extent during his peak years with SA. Lebron's overall production and his value to the Cavs team is something Duncan can't really match.

[Mor'Fiyah]

THE APPROPRIATE QUESTION to ask is:

Is this 24 year old Lebron better than a 24 year TD, or a 24 year old MJ?

Thats not even a fair question really as a 24 year old Lebron has already been in the league longer than 24 year old Duncan and MJ.

Maybe the better question might be sixth season Duncan vs. sixth season Lebron or something of that nature.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Thats not even a fair question really as a 24 year old Lebron has already been in the league longer than 24 year old Duncan and MJ.

Maybe the better question might be sixth season Duncan vs. sixth season Lebron or something of that nature.

so what? they all played ball. the others just played more college ball. one could argue that they received more/better fundamentals coaching... which has been a HUGE problem for the kids jumping straight from HS to pros.

[Clifton]

It's hard to judge something like this because Lebron has never had a coach while Duncan has had the best coach/organization/system imaginable since his rookie year. The main thing he does lead something great to begin with. He makes a contender into a dynasty. Lebron on the other hand makes a title contender out of absolutely nothing.

I think based on what they've done, I'm not comfortable saying Lebron > Duncan. But there is very little doubt in my mind that if a couple changes were made to the Cavs roster and they had a coach like Popovich that Lebron would be far and away better than Duncan ever was and would be in the Larry Bird/Magic Johnson discussion. (well, not for at least 5 years among serious fans, (ESPN would be on it immediately), but he would be eventually.)

Lebron can will a team to victory which is something Duncan can't do. Duncan is a great all-around player with great instincts and who plays very intelligently and has great defensive instincts. But he can't shoulder a load like Lebron can, and what's better for Lebron, unlike other guys who can carry a team to a victory (Kobe, prime AI) he is able to do it without taking away from his teammates in any way and he contributes to individual and team defense and provides consistent scoring in the paint in a way that perimeter finesse guys like Kobe can't.

Of course it's a credit that he's allowed Pop to mold him into the perfect player. Would Lebron? Would this guy who says things like "playing in the post is boring" let Pop maximize his potential? I think he would but it's a question. Probably not as well as Duncan but I think his talent would make up for it.

[Mor'Fiyah]

The answer here is Lebron. As much as I like Duncan, he never dominated to this extent during his peak years with SA. Lebron's overall production and his value to the Cavs team is something Duncan can't really match.

I am going to have to disagree. Based on your logic we would have to say Lebron has been more dominant than any other player before him not named Wilt. The problem of comparing players in different positions and with different teammates playing within different systems then pollutes the whole darn thing. The Cavs system allows for Lebron to statistically dominate games. Neither Popovich or Phil Jackson would give Lebron that much free reign in their systems.

[Mor'Fiyah]

so what? they all played ball. the others just played more college ball. one could argue that they received more/better fundamentals coaching... which has been a HUGE problem for the kids jumping straight from HS to pros.

Yet experience in the league is more invaluable than experience anywhere else, as many college players who make the jump will tell you.

[Mor'Fiyah]

It's hard to judge something like this because Lebron has never had a coach while Duncan has had the best coach/organization/system imaginable since his rookie year. The main thing he does lead something great to begin with. He makes a contender into a dynasty. Lebron on the other hand makes a title contender out of absolutely nothing.

I think based on what they've done, I'm not comfortable saying Lebron > Duncan. But there is very little doubt in my mind that if a couple changes were made to the Cavs roster and they had a coach like Popovich that Lebron would be far and away better than Duncan ever was and would be in the Larry Bird/Magic Johnson discussion. (well, not for at least 5 years among serious fans, (ESPN would be on it immediately), but he would be eventually.)

Lebron can will a team to victory which is something Duncan can't do. Duncan is a great all-around player with great instincts and who plays very intelligently and has great defensive instincts. But he can't shoulder a load like Lebron can, and what's better for Lebron, unlike other guys who can carry a team to a victory (Kobe, prime AI) he is able to do it without taking away from his teammates in any way and he contributes to individual and team defense and provides consistent scoring in the paint in a way that perimeter finesse guys like Kobe can't.

Of course it's a credit that he's allowed Pop to mold him into the perfect player. Would Lebron? Would this guy who says things like "playing in the post is boring" let Pop maximize his potential? I think he would but it's a question. Probably not as well as Duncan but I think his talent would make up for it.

Myth: Lebron can dominate the ball and still make his teammates better.

Truth: Lebron's domination of the ball turns his teammates into manequins waiting for an outlet pass from Lebron. They aren't developing and they aren't raising their own basketball IQs. They only benefit from the attention Lebron soaks up on open shots... in every other category he takes opportunities away from his teammates.

[oh the horror]

I am going to have to disagree. Based on your logic we would have to say Lebron has been more dominant than any other player before him not named Wilt. The problem of comparing players in different positions and with different teammates playing within different systems then pollutes the whole darn thing. The Cavs system allows for Lebron to statistically dominate games. Neither Popovich or Phil Jackson would give Lebron that much free reign in their systems.



someone with a brain.


This is a silly thread. Something a teenager would think up.

[quasimoto]

There seriously are some retarded posts in this thread...

Duncan is obviously one of the best players of all time. He didn't have the flashy highlights or sick statlines but what made him really stand out is the fact that he led his teams to multiple championships (it has to be said that he had a good supporting cast most of the time) and he's consistently been playing on a high level since his rookie year. If you're comparing individual skill sets I'd say it's close. Duncan has great post moves, great defense, he's a good, can shoot the midrange jumper. When you're seven feet tall and have that kind of skills you're bound to win.

Lebron isn't much worse. He's one of the most athletic players of all time, great finisher, passer. His defense is alright. The only thing he really lacks is a consistent outside shot, good defensive teams have already shown they can exploit this. The Spurs in 07 for example, although it's just stupid to think Duncan is better than Lebron just because they swept the Cavs. Lebron had to lead a team at 22 years old and his teammates were utter sh*t. Of course they didn't stand a chance against the best team of its generation. Give him some time and a good team and the rings should only be a matter of time. Right now I'd give the nod to Duncan for his career, which will be incredibly hard for Lebron to match, but when it's all said and done they should be pretty comparable.

[Roundball_Rock]

When your a consensus GOAT PF and you have 4 rings, then yes, you are better than a ringless Lebron.

He isn't the consensus GOAT PF. There are many people who believe Karl Malone is and Charles Barkley has a few partisans as well (here's to you Sir_Charles!).

Regarding the OP, yes Lebron 2009 is better than Tim Duncan ever was at his peak. Of course, Lebron has a long way to catch Duncan in the all-time rankings at this point.

[oh the horror]

How do you even compare a power forward, dealing with other power forwards to a small forward that plays mostly like a gaurd?


Why are we all even having this discussion?


Tell you what, lets start comparing Lebron to ALL centers whove played along the years, eh?

[Bruinzzz]

Where do these guys come from? You do realize Lebron has never won a chip and he's losing this series despite shooting over 20 free throws per game on bogus call after bogus call...right?

OP=massive tool
I like how you threw in the "bogus call" ****. If you watch basketball, or any sport for that manner, bogus calls happen every game. Stop your *****ing.

[BallersTalk]

so what? they all played ball. the others just played more college ball. one could argue that they received more/better fundamentals coaching... which has been a HUGE problem for the kids jumping straight from HS to pros.
NBA Experience > any other form of basketball experience
Fact.

[Clifton]

Myth: Lebron can dominate the ball and still make his teammates better.

Truth: Lebron's domination of the ball turns his teammates into manequins waiting for an outlet pass from Lebron. They aren't developing and they aren't raising their own basketball IQs. They only benefit from the attention Lebron soaks up on open shots... in every other category he takes opportunities away from his teammates.
I'm sure you have some familiarity with Mo, Delonte, Gibson, Big Z, Anderson, Ben Wallace, and Joe Smith outside of their play with Lebron. There is not some big spark of individual talent in these players that Lebron is holding back. They are all catch and shoot roleplayers and/or defensive specialists. There's nothing to gain for a championship contending team for Mo Williams or Delonte to develop their playmaking ability any more than they are now because they just *aren't that good* unless they're hitting open shots / picking their real comfort spots when they're there. That's all they need to do and that's all they should be doing. Guys like that taking on a much bigger role than they are now is a sign of a weak team.

That said, I would like to see more movement in the Cavs offense, not just Isos like last night. But that's the fault of coaching, not Lebron. If this were the Spurs, the abovementioned players wouldn't have much greater roles than they have now but the game would look a lot more balanced.

I've never watched the Cavs and felt like Cavs players felt like Lebron was holding them back. Whenever they're open he finds them, even if he has a shot himself. There's never a guy who can make it who's being frozen out. That's just my perception of course.

Lebron has never had another secondary guy who can consistenly create like a Turkoglu or Manu. If he did I have little doubt that player would thrive, if Mike Brown allowed it.

If Lebron were on the Suns instead of Nash back when the Suns were exciting and good, I bet you he averages 10 assists or more. Maybe a triple double if they were to move Marion. Seriously. And the non-Lebron players would have looked much better than they were just like the non-Nash players of the real life Suns did.

[bdreason]

I hope this thread isn't serious.

[Mor'Fiyah]

NBA Experience > any other form of basketball experience
Fact.

The greats in the game (Jordan, Bird, Dr. J, Shoot... even Shaq) are probably watching these games and muttering to themselves "if my coach would let me crash the defensive boards, play the point, and then run the entire offense through isos meant for me to score or get an assist, I would have the greatest stats ever! I would lose... but I would have the greatest stats ever!"

Lebron's greatest advantage over all these players is his physical gifts of size and freakish speed that allow him to do these things at probably a better efficiency than any other player before him. Thats it.

[The_Yearning]

There's a difference between dominating a game and winning a game, give me the guy who won.

That would be..........

*long pause*

........Tim Duncan!

Congratulations Tim, come on down!


Seriously though, it's not really a fair argument. Lebron is definitly more gifted in terms of ability (e.g. physically and athletically), but Duncan is far more talented in terms of skill.

Give Lebron a few more years and the chance to try and win a few championships and then it will be a more fair comparison.

Lebron would be past his prime by then. The time for him to win is now. Too bad it won't happen though.

[tastystaci]

He isn't the consensus GOAT PF. There are many people who believe Karl Malone is and Charles Barkley has a few partisans as well (here's to you Sir_Charles!).

Regarding the OP, yes Lebron 2009 is better than Tim Duncan ever was at his peak. Of course, Lebron has a long way to catch Duncan in the all-time rankings at this point.

Charles Barkley himself said Duncan is the greatest PF he's ever seen. By consensus, I meant anybody who isn't retarded thinks he's the greatest PF of all time. Of course there is always people who say otherwise, but majority of basketball community considers Duncan the GOAT PF.

[Mor'Fiyah]

I'm sure you have some familiarity with Mo, Delonte, Gibson, Big Z, Anderson, Ben Wallace, and Joe Smith outside of their play with Lebron. There is not some big spark of individual talent in these players that Lebron is holding back. They are all catch and shoot roleplayers and/or defensive specialists. There's nothing to gain for a championship contending team for Mo Williams or Delonte to develop their playmaking ability any more than they are now because they just *aren't that good* unless they're hitting open shots / picking their real comfort spots when they're there. That's all they need to do and that's all they should be doing. Guys like that taking on a much bigger role than they are now is a sign of a weak team.

That said, I would like to see more movement in the Cavs offense, not just Isos like last night. But that's the fault of coaching, not Lebron. If this were the Spurs, the abovementioned players wouldn't have much greater roles than they have now but the game would look a lot more balanced.

I've never watched the Cavs and felt like Cavs players felt like Lebron was holding them back. Whenever they're open he finds them, even if he has a shot himself. There's never a guy who can make it who's being frozen out. That's just my perception of course.

Lebron has never had another secondary guy who can consistenly create like a Turkoglu or Manu. If he did I have little doubt that player would thrive, if Mike Brown allowed it.

If Lebron were on the Suns instead of Nash back when the Suns were exciting and good, I bet you he averages 10 assists or more. Maybe a triple double if they were to move Marion. Seriously. And the non-Lebron players would have looked much better than they were just like the non-Nash players of the real life Suns did.

Gibson was developing as a two guard in this league. Then he regressed. He hasn't been allowed to develop into anything more than a catch and shoot player. How the hell would you know his potential. Big Ben is not a catch and shoot player. His entire repertoire is defense, which has been rendered redundant by Lebron's cherry picking. Some of these guys arent as useless as you people think they are watching them play manequin basketball in the Cavs offense. The addition of Mo Williams made the Cavs better than they ever were... not Lebron all of a sudden!

The one thing I agree with you on is it not being Lebron's fault. He is just doing what they are asking him to do. But at some point in his career he will realise it just doesn't work against good teams or that he can't keep it up season after season after season as he loses some of his athleticism.

[Showtime]

It seems from recent comments that people don't remember young Duncan, who was a threat to take you off the dribble, drop a 15 foot jumper in your face, or embarrass a you in the post. Young Duncan was one of the most versatile and effective players I've ever watched.

[FindingTim]

Duncan (David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker)

Lebron (Anderson Varajao, Delonte West, Mo Williams)

[crisoner]

Duncan has four rings....Bron 0

Sorry but championships is what defines a player IMO.
Two different positions...you want to argue about Duncan having a good team and coach blah blah blah...point is these teams are built around him and he brought them to the promise land plenty of times.


But for real DUNCAN needs more respect on these boards.

[rs98762001]

LeBron's nutriders are quickly getting as irritating as Bryant's.

[SayTownRy]

Lebron can will a team to victory which is something Duncan can't do.

he's only willed them to being the winningest team in all of sport for a nice 10 year span.

[CantStop]

Damn, how can you be a groupie for someone with 0 finals wins. Lebron ain't even on Dirk status.

[Mikaiel]

he's only willed them to being the winningest team in all of sport for a nice 10 year span.

I think what he wanted to say was that Duncan never had games like LeBron's Game 5 against Detroit in '07 or his game last night.

But it's ridiculous. That's not Duncan's game. He does it in different ways. And as a Cavs fan, I'd like to say don't confuse LeBron ******gers with real Cavs fans :( LeBron doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as Duncan, yet.

[crisoner]

I think what he wanted to say was that Duncan never had games like LeBron's Game 5 against Detroit in '07 or his game last night.

But it's ridiculous. That's not Duncan's game. He does it in different ways. And as a Cavs fan, I'd like to say don't confuse LeBron ******gers with real Cavs fans :( LeBron doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as Duncan, yet.


Good CAVS fan right here Lebron fanatics take notes.

[Puffy]

Yes, way better. Duncan was good but one of the most overrated players in history. I'd take prime KG over prime Duncan any day.

Duncan was never that consistent offensively and the refs bailed him out a lot.

Robert Horry had like seven rings so I guess he also better than Lebron.

[SayTownRy]

I think what he wanted to say was that Duncan never had games like LeBron's Game 5 against Detroit in '07 or his game last night.

I'd say, amongst others, probably most notably is game 6 of the 03 finals

21/20/10/8 while shutting down k mart

24/17/5/5 for the series...

[tastystaci]

Yes, way better. Duncan was good but one of the most overrated players in history. I'd take prime KG over prime Duncan any day.

Duncan was never that consistent offensively and the refs bailed him out a lot.

Robert Horry had like seven rings so I guess he also better than Lebron.

:roll: It's like a car wreck. You just can't look away. What a monumentally retarded post. Duncan, who got tossed once for laughing on the bench vs. 20 free throws per game Lebron. Have any of you actually watched this Cavs/Magic series. You can't pass wind in Lebron's direction without getting a foul called on you. You guys are absolutely hilarious.

[SRZ66]

basketball is a team game. rings are not as valuable as you think (see robert horry). duncan had much better teams, period. no one in history has done more for their team to win than lebron is doing right now. it's literally 5 on 1. there are a million of different ways to look at it, but if you want to cut to the bottom line......lebron is a better basketball player right now than duncan has ever been. he is completely and utterly dominant every single game, duncan is/was not.

oh, and to the people saying duncan is more skilled? wtf are you smoking? more skilled at what? shooting? no passing? no dribbling? no free throws? no. OMGZ!!!!!!1111 he banks some shots, he's so fundamental!!!1111!!1

[Mikaiel]

I'd say, amongst others, probably most notably is game 6 of the 03 finals

21/20/10/8 while shutting down k mart

24/17/5/5 for the series...

Yeah obviously he's had some terrific games, but Duncan never carried his team offensively like LeBron. He never scored his team's last 29 points or scored or assisted the last 32 like LeBron did last night. I think that's what the guy was saying when he said "will his team to victory".

But LeBron never dominated a game with his defense and rebounding. But Duncan did/does on a regular basis. And let's face it, no one cares about those things. Even if that's what wins games. Which is why this thread was born, unfortunately. Casual fans just care about points scored ...

[Clifton]

Gibson was developing as a two guard in this league. Then he regressed. He hasn't been allowed to develop into anything more than a catch and shoot player. How the hell would you know his potential.
Many thought Gibson was developing as a two guard in this league because Lebron was giving him a lot of open threes. Then he got hurt and didn't quite manage to get his groove back plus Mo Williams replaced him in the rotation. He had a good playoffs and will be a very good sixth man for a long time.

It's not as though Gibson doesn't have any ability besides 3pt shooting, but he is an excellent shooter and average at best at everything else. If you're going for a title, and you have Mike Brown as a coach, just what do you propose his role be?


Big Ben is not a catch and shoot player. His entire repertoire is defense, which has been rendered redundant by Lebron's cherry picking.
I know what Ben Wallace is, and you and I both know that he's over the hill and to claim that Lebron is making him a worse defensive player is a much worse claim than the OP made (though not as outrageous.) But it's a throwaway claim so don't worry about it. Especially since Lebron is all-D and deserved it too. And that's not what redundant means. You're right Ben Wallace is redundant, but only because the Cavs' defense is one of the best in the league with or without him, and Lebron is a significant part of that. (Mike Brown is probably the most significant, to toss an otherwise meager coach some credit.)


Some of these guys arent as useless as you people think they are watching them play manequin basketball in the Cavs offense. The addition of Mo Williams made the Cavs better than they ever were... not Lebron all of a sudden!
You don't seem to be making a point here. Mo makes the Cavs better, yeah, so...? In so far as he's a very good shooter and a good, capable roleplayer, with some playmaking ability, yes. And his being allowed to flourish in his capacity as option 3 with Lebron as options 1 and 2 is why the Cavs won 66 games. And his inability to hit wide open shots in the playoffs is why the Cavs are down 3-2. So again just what is your point? You want a guy who is performing poorly in the playoffs at the most basic tasks to shoulder more of the load? Again I'd like to see more movement too, but as long as MB can only do isos and pick and rolls, would you really rather it be Mo Williams isoing than Lebron?

[quoteThe one thing I agree with you on is it not being Lebron's fault. He is just doing what they are asking him to do. But at some point in his career he will realise it just doesn't work against good teams or that he can't keep it up season after season after season as he loses some of his athleticism.[/quote]
Ok I agree. The thing is that the way Lebron is playing is largely coaching, but coaching also prevents there being any roles on the Cavs offense besides: superstar iso player, and spot up shooter. So that I think explains these guys having whatever role they do. They would be allowed to be much more dynamic if they had another coach- not if they had another superstar.

[Mor'Fiyah]

basketball is a team game. rings are not as valuable as you think (see robert horry). duncan had much better teams, period. no one in history has done more for their team to win than lebron is doing right now. it's literally 5 on 1. there are a million of different ways to look at it, but if you want to cut to the bottom line......lebron is a better basketball player right now than duncan has ever been. he is completely and utterly dominant every single game, duncan is/was not.

oh, and to the people saying duncan is more skilled? wtf are you smoking? more skilled at what? shooting? no passing? no dribbling? no free throws? no

Is Lebron then also better than Jordan? Jordan didn't need these kind of games for the Bulls to win either did he? And even when they did... Jordan still never had these kind of stats either. No one player ever has...

There is a difference between playing your role within a system to the best of your ability and doing everything within that role to help your team win and literally being the ENTIRE system for your team. Lebron's stats are a product of the crappy system the Cavs are using. Its good enough to beat a crap team, but Orlando will take it anyday. If Lebron were not going to the line 20 times a game the Cavs would have been swept.

[Showtime]

Yes, way better. Duncan was good but one of the most overrated players in history. I'd take prime KG over prime Duncan any day.

Duncan was never that consistent offensively and the refs bailed him out a lot.

Robert Horry had like seven rings so I guess he also better than Lebron.
:roll:

[Mor'Fiyah]

Many thought Gibson was developing as a two guard in this league because Lebron was giving him a lot of open threes. Then he got hurt and didn't quite manage to get his groove back plus Mo Williams replaced him in the rotation. He had a good playoffs and will be a very good sixth man for a long time.

It's not as though Gibson doesn't have any ability besides 3pt shooting, but he is an excellent shooter and average at best at everything else. If you're going for a title, and you have Mike Brown as a coach, just what do you propose his role be?


I know what Ben Wallace is, and you and I both know that he's over the hill and to claim that Lebron is making him a worse defensive player is a much worse claim than the OP made (though not as outrageous.) But it's a throwaway claim so don't worry about it. Especially since Lebron is all-D and deserved it too. And that's not what redundant means. You're right Ben Wallace is redundant, but only because the Cavs' defense is one of the best in the league with or without him, and Lebron is a significant part of that. (Mike Brown is probably the most significant, to toss an otherwise meager coach some credit.)


You don't seem to be making a point here. Mo makes the Cavs better, yeah, so...? In so far as he's a very good shooter and a good, capable roleplayer, with some playmaking ability, yes. And his being allowed to flourish in his capacity as option 3 with Lebron as options 1 and 2 is why the Cavs won 66 games. And his inability to hit wide open shots in the playoffs is why the Cavs are down 3-2. So again just what is your point? You want a guy who is performing poorly in the playoffs at the most basic tasks to shoulder more of the load? Again I'd like to see more movement too, but as long as MB can only do isos and pick and rolls, would you really rather it be Mo Williams isoing than Lebron?


Ok I agree. The thing is that the way Lebron is playing is largely coaching, but coaching also prevents there being any roles on the Cavs offense besides: superstar iso player, and spot up shooter. So that I think explains these guys having whatever role they do. They would be allowed to be much more dynamic if they had another coach- not if they had another superstar.

We are not in complete disagreement here. I am not blaming Lebron for anything. What I am saying is that his stats are, in large part, a product of the system his team uses to try to win ball games. Put Lebron in a system where other players get to thrive and play a more meaningful role as well as giving him players than can fill meaningful roles and Lebron's PER, stats and domination will go down. He will also stand a much greater chance of winning a ring then also... but you won't be able to use stats to argue his supposed dominance of a game indicating his overall value being greater than any other player before him.

What kind of stats would Jordan or Duncan or Magic or Kareem or Kobe or Shaq have if they literally iso'd every play and then blocked out for them to get rebounds and only caught and shot every pass?

[YAWN]

and so it begins, the time has come for the kobe haters to transform into lebron haters or "realists" as they like to refer to themselves as.

i give it one more season until the likes of knoe, loki, and bruceblitz are hating on this guy and his fanbase

[Atomic DOG]

Duncan has four rings....Bron 0

Sorry but championships is what defines a player IMO.
Two different positions...you want to argue about Duncan having a good team and coach blah blah blah...point is these teams are built around him and he brought them to the promise land plenty of times.




you are as brainless when it comes to basketball as you are with everything else.

[Duncan21formvp]

Tim Duncan rings: 4

LeBron James rings: 0

Duncan is the greatest PF of all time.

LeBron isn't the greatest SF of all time.

end thread/
:rockon:

[VCMVP1551]

Duncan in the 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons was more dominant than Lebron ever was. Don't forget how good Duncan was offensively back then and his defensive impact was miles ahead of Lebron's.

First of all Duncan's stats are a lot more impressive than people think. He won his back to back MVP's the first 2 seasons that zone defense was legal which made it much harder for big men.

2001-2002
25.5 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.5 bpg, 50.8 FG%, 79.9 FT%, 40.6 mpg, 82 games

Duncan was 5th in scoring, 2nd in rebounding, 4th in blocks per game and 2nd in total minutes played. In scoring he was actually just 0.1 ppg behind T-Mac and 0.6 behind Paul Pierce. 25.5 ppg for a low post player in the zone defense era is equal to atleast 27 ppg prior to zone defense being legal. Nevermind shooting 51% from the floor and 80% from the line or getting almost 4 assists as a center.

Duncan carried that Spurs team to 58 wins at the same time Sacramento was peaking, The Lakers were finishing off their 3peat, Dallas was becoming a title contender and Minnesota and Portland also won about 50 games. San Antonio finished second.

Duncan did that with a roster that included a 36 year old David Robinson and a 32 year old Steve Smith as the only other double digit scorers. Those 2 combined for just 23.8 ppg, almost 2 ppg shy of Duncan's 25.5 ppg. Duncan had to carry that team more than Lebron did in and Duncan did it in a tougher conference.

Duncan's defensive impact was far greater than Lebron's as well. Duncan was probably the best defensive player in the game at the time. In the playofffs Duncan was also forced to do everything. Tim averaged 27.6 ppg, 14.4 rpg, 5.0 apg and 4.3 bpg, but because of his limited supporting cast it wasn't good enough.

2002-2003
23.3 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.9 bpg, 51.3 FG%, 71.0 FT%, 39.3 mpg, 81 games

Duncan was 3rd in rebounding and blocks per game. He led San Antonio to the best record in the NBA(60-22) and of course he led them to a championship. His supporting cast was still not as good as Lebron's this year. All he really had was a second year Tony Parker, David Robinson in his last year, Malik Rose, Bruce Bowen and a young Stephen Jackson. Which is why he had to average 24.7 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 5.3 apg, 3.3 bpg and 52.9 FG% in 42.5 mpg throughout the playoffs.

Is everyone forgetting Duncan's 37 point, 16 rebound, 4 assist closeout game against the 3 time defending Lakers in Los Angeles? Or his near quadruple double in the clinching game of the 2006 finals? He had 21 points, 20 rebounds, 10 assists and 8 blocks! In the series he averaged 24.2 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 5.3 apg and 5.3 bpg.

Duncan has put an average supporting cast on his back like Lebron, but unlike Lebron he's taken them to the finals. I'd put 2003 Tim Duncan up against almost any player in NBA history.

It seems that many people have forgotten what a force he was. He was actually quick and athletic for big men as well as being very skilled. It was not uncommon to see Duncan face up against his opponent, drive to the basket and finish by dunking on them. He could also make quick spin moves facing the basket or with his back to the basket going either baseline or to the middle. He'd finish with a one-handed shot over either shoulder, often a jump hook. Of course his great bank shot also made players have to guard him when he was facing up which enabled him to drive to the basket. And his length/mobility allowed him to go up high for put back dunks. His ball handling ability has always been great for a big man. Offensively I remember Duncan as a player with an array of post moves second only to Olajuwon in the last 20 years as well a versatile game that allowed him to score in a variety of ways facing the basket. And that's not even mentioning his excellent passing ability which was one of the biggest keys to the Spurs success in Duncan's prime because they didn't have much of a point guard.

Defensively Duncan was just as good. His help defense and 1 on 1 defense was excellent. He'd stay on his feet when necessary and alter a lot of shots but when the oppurtunity came he'd block shots at an excellent rate. This allowed him to stay out of foul trouble and still dominate the game with his shot blocking. He was also an elite rebounder not only because of his length and mobility but also because of his excellent fundamentals.

Duncan was ATLEAST as dominant as Lebron offensively and worlds better defensively. This is an easy choice for me and the proof is in the back to back MVP's and the 2003 championship. When teams look for the next great center or big man they look for a player who does exactly what Duncan does. Protect the paint, rebound, score in the low post and pass effectively out of it. Duncan excelled at all of these things which are the keys to winning basketball and there was the added bonus of his ability to step out to 15 feet and shoot.

[adamcz]

A lot of goofy replies in this thread.

First of all, let me say that it is indeed a good idea for a thread. Why? Because the two players are darn close. Both of them dominate the NBA, and make a case for greatest player to ever play their position. That makes it a fun subject to debate, with no right or wrong answer.

Secondly, most fans have absolutely zero ability to assess what they see on the court in real time, and are only able to say how good a player is when their career is over and their resume can be relied upon. Lebron may win zero rings in his career, and he may win the next ten consecutive championships. Neither extreme outcome can change how good he is today though.

Ask yourself, were you capable of identifying MJ as perhaps the greatest player of all time prior to his winning a single ring? It's not like winning the ring made him better - he was already that good, which is why he was put in a position to win it in the first place. Some fans had the analytical ability to recognize this early in MJ's career and some did not, falling back on "let me know when he wins a ring - until he does that he's not as good as Magic or Bird."

If you said that, you were simply wrong. MJ was already better than prime Bird or prime Magic prior to winnnig a ring.

Arguments have to rely on basketball skillset, ability to produce wins, to take over games, etc. It's probably clear by this point, but I'm learning towards Lebron as being better than Duncan - but like I said earlier, it's very, very close.

[Johnni Gade]

LeBron hasn't really won anything, Tim has

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

and so it begins, the time has come for the kobe haters to transform into lebron haters or "realists" as they like to refer to themselves as.

i give it one more season until the likes of knoe, loki, and bruceblitz are hating on this guy and his fanbase

they've already started. not as adamantly as their anti-Kobe sentiments, but as Lebron increasingly approaches Greatness, they will grow increasingly vocal.

[hall of fame]

How do you even compare a power forward, dealing with other power forwards to a small forward that plays mostly like a gaurd?


Why are we all even having this discussion?


Tell you what, lets start comparing Lebron to ALL centers whove played along the years, eh?
Because they play the same sport, so you can compare them whenever you want to.

People who say you can't compare players of different positions often come up with very weak arguments.

And you say compare him to the other centers in NBA history? Sure.

LeBron > Wilt

LeBron > Kareem

LeBron > Russell

LeBron > Hakeem

LeBron >= Shaq

LeBron is either equal to or clearly better than every center to ever play this sport.

[Anaximandro1]

Duncan (David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker)

Lebron (Anderson Varajao, Delonte West, Mo Williams)

Yup


2002-03 San Antonio Spurs Roster

NBA Champions//Playoffs

Duncan 24.7 pts(53%),15.4 rb,5.3 ast,3.3 blk

Robinson 7.8 pts(54%),6.6 rb,1.3 blk

Manu 9.4 pts(38%),3.8 rb,2.9as

Parker 14.7 pts(40%),2.8 rb,3.5 as

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html


2008-09 Cleveland Cavaliers Roster

Playoffs

Mo Williams 16.2 pts (40%),3.2 rb,4.1 as

West 13.2 pts(46%),3.5 rbs,4.2 as

Big Z 11.2 pts(46%),7.8 rb,1 blk

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html

Prime Duncan led-Cavs would handle all 4 remaining teams



Duncan was never that consistent offensively

Duncan never had games like LeBron's Game 5 against Detroit in '07 or his game last night.
Mr. Fundamental took his game to the next level under pressure.He was a better scorer than Lebron is.


Western Conference Semifinals (SAS vs LAL)

GAME 4 36 Pts(58.8%),9 Rb,5 as

GAME 5 27 Pts(50%),14 rb,5 as

GAME 6 37 pts(64%),16 bs,4 as,2blk


Western Conference Finals (SAS vs DAL)

GAME 1 40 pts(70%),15 rb,7 as

GAME 2 32 pts(52.4%),15 rb,5 as,3 blk

GAME 3 34 pts(63.2%),24 rb,6 as,6 blk

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2003.html



Duncan never carried his team offensively like LeBron

Prime Duncan was the scorer,playmaker,,the rebounding king,a terrific shot-blocker...He was controlling the game on both ends of the floor.

Duncan put on one of the great performances in NBA Finals history, Duncan averaged 24.2 points, 17.0 rebounds, 5.3 assists and a record 5.3 blocks.For the second time in five seasons, he carried the Spurs to the championship and won NBA Finals MVP honors while staking his undisputed claim as the best player in the league.

Duncan (without Shaq-Kobe) would have won 6 rings.Duncan is better than Lebron,because you can't teach size plus LeBron needs to improve his outside shooting.

[hack_a_shaq]

He's the most dominant player of all time in any sport. No one else comes close.

Tiger Woods?

[IcanzIIravor]

Is current LeBron James a better player than prime Tim Duncan? Would you rather have current LeBron than Tim Duncan at his absolute peak?

I say yes easily. LeBron James is already the most dominant player of this century.

How many rings does Lebron have? Let's get at least 1 ring before insulting Duncan like this.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Because they play the same sport, so you can compare them whenever you want to.

People who say you can't compare players of different positions often come up with very weak arguments.

And you say compare him to the other centers in NBA history? Sure.

LeBron > Wilt

LeBron > Kareem

LeBron > Russell

LeBron > Hakeem

LeBron >= Shaq

LeBron is either equal to or clearly better than every center to ever play this sport.

worst post ever? seriously.
:confusedshrug:

[Ken_Masters]

If the OP is serious and not a gimmick, then I question what this site is coming to. This thread should be closed and deleted immediately.

Exactly. This is probably one of the worst threads i've ever seen on this site. No joke.

[206kid]

Wow, ESPN really got to you huh?

[206kid]

Because they play the same sport, so you can compare them whenever you want to.

People who say you can't compare players of different positions often come up with very weak arguments.

And you say compare him to the other centers in NBA history? Sure.

LeBron > Wilt

LeBron > Kareem

LeBron > Russell

LeBron > Hakeem

LeBron >= Shaq

LeBron is either equal to or clearly better than every center to ever play this sport.

LOL.

He's not on Shaq's stratosphere in terms of dominance. He's not close to Hakeem. And then the rest are just straight up retarded.

[Big#50]

Timmy was a always a top 3 defender in the league. He never avg a lot of points because of the style of play the Spurs play. But when needed, nobody could stop him. Check his avg's against the Mavs, Suns, Lakers, he could drop 33 ppg when he wanted to. Duncan has never choked in big games, he always steps up.
Duncan




Lebron

[lilbeastnani]

LOL.

He's not on Shaq's stratosphere in terms of dominance. He's not close to Hakeem. And then the rest are just straight up retarded.
He obviously became an NBA fan in 2003.

[Kingwillball]

Duncan in the 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons was more dominant than Lebron ever was. Don't forget how good Duncan was offensively back then and his defensive impact was miles ahead of Lebron's.

First of all Duncan's stats are a lot more impressive than people think. He won his back to back MVP's the first 2 seasons that zone defense was legal which made it much harder for big men.

2001-2002
25.5 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.5 bpg, 50.8 FG%, 79.9 FT%, 40.6 mpg, 82 games

Duncan was 5th in scoring, 2nd in rebounding, 4th in blocks per game and 2nd in total minutes played. In scoring he was actually just 0.1 ppg behind T-Mac and 0.6 behind Paul Pierce. 25.5 ppg for a low post player in the zone defense era is equal to atleast 27 ppg prior to zone defense being legal. Nevermind shooting 51% from the floor and 80% from the line or getting almost 4 assists as a center.

Duncan carried that Spurs team to 58 wins at the same time Sacramento was peaking, The Lakers were finishing off their 3peat, Dallas was becoming a title contender and Minnesota and Portland also won about 50 games. San Antonio finished second.

Duncan did that with a roster that included a 36 year old David Robinson and a 32 year old Steve Smith as the only other double digit scorers. Those 2 combined for just 23.8 ppg, almost 2 ppg shy of Duncan's 25.5 ppg. Duncan had to carry that team more than Lebron did in and Duncan did it in a tougher conference.

Duncan's defensive impact was far greater than Lebron's as well. Duncan was probably the best defensive player in the game at the time. In the playofffs Duncan was also forced to do everything. Tim averaged 27.6 ppg, 14.4 rpg, 5.0 apg and 4.3 bpg, but because of his limited supporting cast it wasn't good enough.

2002-2003
23.3 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.9 bpg, 51.3 FG%, 71.0 FT%, 39.3 mpg, 81 games

Duncan was 3rd in rebounding and blocks per game. He led San Antonio to the best record in the NBA(60-22) and of course he led them to a championship. His supporting cast was still not as good as Lebron's this year. All he really had was a second year Tony Parker, David Robinson in his last year, Malik Rose, Bruce Bowen and a young Stephen Jackson. Which is why he had to average 24.7 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 5.3 apg, 3.3 bpg and 52.9 FG% in 42.5 mpg throughout the playoffs.

Is everyone forgetting Duncan's 37 point, 16 rebound, 4 assist closeout game against the 3 time defending Lakers in Los Angeles? Or his near quadruple double in the clinching game of the 2006 finals? He had 21 points, 20 rebounds, 10 assists and 8 blocks! In the series he averaged 24.2 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 5.3 apg and 5.3 bpg.

Duncan has put an average supporting cast on his back like Lebron, but unlike Lebron he's taken them to the finals. I'd put 2003 Tim Duncan up against almost any player in NBA history.

It seems that many people have forgotten what a force he was. He was actually quick and athletic for big men as well as being very skilled. It was not uncommon to see Duncan face up against his opponent, drive to the basket and finish by dunking on them. He could also make quick spin moves facing the basket or with his back to the basket going either baseline or to the middle. He'd finish with a one-handed shot over either shoulder, often a jump hook. Of course his great bank shot also made players have to guard him when he was facing up which enabled him to drive to the basket. And his length/mobility allowed him to go up high for put back dunks. His ball handling ability has always been great for a big man. Offensively I remember Duncan as a player with an array of post moves second only to Olajuwon in the last 20 years as well a versatile game that allowed him to score in a variety of ways facing the basket. And that's not even mentioning his excellent passing ability which was one of the biggest keys to the Spurs success in Duncan's prime because they didn't have much of a point guard.

Defensively Duncan was just as good. His help defense and 1 on 1 defense was excellent. He'd stay on his feet when necessary and alter a lot of shots but when the oppurtunity came he'd block shots at an excellent rate. This allowed him to stay out of foul trouble and still dominate the game with his shot blocking. He was also an elite rebounder not only because of his length and mobility but also because of his excellent fundamentals.

Duncan was ATLEAST as dominant as Lebron offensively and worlds better defensively. This is an easy choice for me and the proof is in the back to back MVP's and the 2003 championship. When teams look for the next great center or big man they look for a player who does exactly what Duncan does. Protect the paint, rebound, score in the low post and pass effectively out of it. Duncan excelled at all of these things which are the keys to winning basketball and there was the added bonus of his ability to step out to 15 feet and shoot.


Dude, Duncan was never as dominant as Lebron and in a few years this conversation will seem silly.

[Kingwillball]

Lebron would be past his prime by then. The time for him to win is now. Too bad it won't happen though.


Wow he is 24. He has another 8-10 years he can win a championship. His basketball prime is actually 24-30.

[C-Webb4]

Dude, Duncan was never as dominant as Lebron and in a few years this conversation will seem silly.
Just because it wasn't flashy and TD isn't some freak athlete wing player doesn't mean he hasn't been dominant.. That's the problem with kids today, they like the big dunks and and the athleticism and they don't appreciate things like defense, post play, leadership, and most importantly results.

[Clifton]

Some of the replies in this thread just sadden me. adamcz's post and then look at the post right after it. Hilarious. And sad.


What kind of stats would Jordan or Duncan or Magic or Kareem or Kobe or Shaq have if they literally iso'd every play and then blocked out for them to get rebounds and only caught and shot every pass?
Who cares? Stats isn't the point. The point is that the Cavs have to play like this because they don't have anyone else who can create and they don't have a coach who can make roleplayers effective unless they're spotting up. That is a situation none of the players you mentioned have ever been in. Had they been in that situation, well... I gotta say I highly doubt they do as well as Lebron is doing right now. Look at his FG%. He could still win this series.

Other than Jordan I can't imagine a player doing what Lebron is forced to do in this series as well. We can look at other alltime greats who have had to adopt a similar role. AI shot very poorly. Oscar Robinson never won anything. Kobe during that brief period when he didn't have a team shot not very well and didn't win. Pistol Pete's teams were a joke from what I've read. Lebron won 66 games and he's in the conference finals and he shoots upper 40s. Maybe anyone would score 30 points in Lebron's shoes but they wouldn't do it with nearly the penache.

And I don't think any all time great with rings on their fingers is sitting at home like, "wow, I wish I had a **** coach and teammates who couldn't create so that I could score 40 points a game in a playoff series." I think it's more likely that Lebron is thinking "I wish I had Kareem and Worthy" or "I wish I had McHale and Parish" - "so that I could score 25 points and walk away with some hardware instead of carrying my limpd*ck teammates night after night."

[Big#50]

Dude, Duncan was never as dominant as Lebron and in a few years this conversation will seem silly.
Idiot. Duncan was more dominant than James will ever be.

[Lebron23]

Wow he is 24. He has another 8-10 years he can win a championship. His basketball prime is actually 24-30.


I trade 1/2 of LeBron's supporting casts just to have the chance to acquire Tony Parker. At Least Parker played consistently in the Regular Season and in the playoffs.

[Carbine]

People are wrong to think Parker would bring the same type of effectiveness to the Cavs as he does with the Spurs. First of all, Parker is a liability when the ball isn't in his hands on the offensive side of the ball - you're surprised when he actually attemps a three, let alone makes one. This factor alone would make him a bad combination with LeBron - who is so used to being the one with the ball in his hands.

I think, generally, people look and see Parker had a 40 point game, or 35 point game and think "man, what I wouldn't give to have him on our team as a complimentory player" but fail to realize that his role on the Spurs vs. the role he would play on the team you want him on would be different.

[vert48]

What an idiotic thread.

[Juges8932]

Looooooooooool

[VCMVP1551]

Dude, Duncan was never as dominant as Lebron and in a few years this conversation will seem silly.

I can see that you didn't watch Duncan in his prime. If you did then you'd know that Duncan's dominant low post game and defense makes it obvious that Duncan was the more dominant player.

[highwhey]

Duncan carried a horrible team to the finals and won. Worse then Lebron's teammates in 07 and 08.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/thekatieway/wat.jpg

[RocketGreatness]

No, Duncan is a Top 10 player of all-time, while LeBron isn't just yet. In order to make a Top 10 list, you should have a championship and LeBron obviously does not have that.

People forget to realize that Duncan had no all-stars on that 2003 team. He had a washed up injured David Robinson, the very young Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili and a Stephen Jackson.

He's one of the few players of all-time to ever win a title without playing with any all-stars.

[Auka]

How the hell did this thread make it to 6 pages?

[Dbrog]

OMGZ because lebron hasnt won a championship in a game thats a team sport!

dont you know man?? players are only as good as how many "chips" they've won!

Russell > Horry > Duncan = Shaq > Kobe > Kenny Smith > Kevin Garnett > Lebron James!

also, didnt you know that Kevin Garnett was an overrated, no-good player up until last year? He suddenly got a bunch of times better and developed mad skills in like his 11th season and thats the reason he won a 'chip.' It had nothing to do with his team, his conference, his coach, his organization, or his era.

"Chips" = the ONLY way to measure a player



/end retardation.

The only thing that will end retardation is for you to stop posting.

[bdreason]

I'm not sure LeBron can ever dominate like Duncan.

People underestimate the power of controlling the paint on both offense and defense; and that's exactly what Duncan does.


If I'm starting a team, I'm taking Prime Duncan over Current LeBron all day, every day.

[raptorfan_dr07]

I swear the stupidity level on this board goes way up every day. I guess those stupid puppet commercials on ESPN are doing their job. :rolleyes:

[john_d]

there should be a rule on ISH to ban all posters comparing players with ZERO chips to players with 2 or more chips

[Lebron23]

How the hell did this thread make it to 6 pages?

Duncan fanboys and LeBron Haters = Combining Force. He's 33 yrs.old, and I am Glad that he's no longer going to win another NBA Championship unless Parker and Ginobili save his @rse in the First Round of the playoffs.

[Showtime]

Who is Lebron's competiton at forward? Melo? Hedo? Pierce? C'mon. Duncan took on Shaq in his prime and won, as well as guys like prime Webber, Amare, Dirk and KG at PF. Duncan was the best post player on both ends at his peak, and Lebron is getting a ton of hype for just improving his defensive effort.

[jinsanity]

He's the most dominant player of all time in any sport. No one else comes close.

Tiger Woods?

[JustinJDW]

Why do people act like Tim got lucky because he had good teammates? He made his teammates good. The Spurs were not like the Boston Celtics and just signed two already established All-Stars/Hall of Fame players.

Tony Parker was just a little 18 year old boy from France when the Spurs drafted him, and Manu Ginobili was a late 2nd Round Pick for Lord's sake. Sure Ginobili was great in Argentina and the Euro League, but he was nowhere near the talent and development that the Spurs Organization made him today. Tim Duncan and Pop developed these players even more and turned them into stars.

With that said, its not fair to penalize Duncan because he had good teammates. Now if if Timmy and the Spurs signed on Kobe Bryant and Lebron James and they won Championships, then it would be fair to say that Timmy got lucky with good teammates, but to praise a person for winning rings, and then penalizing them because he had good teammates when he did it, is just stupid. Especially since the talent Timmy had with him was talent him and Pop developed from ground up.

With all this said, Lebron has not reached Duncan's peak. Let's see Lebron dominate an entire decade and win 3 Championships in 5 years while the League and the whole World is hating him and his Team and guys like Prime Shaq in his way, then we can talk about it.

Get real guys. Lebron is slowly getting eliminated from the Playoffs, and people are still riding on his nut sack.

[Manute for Ever!]

Holy **** you're stupid, BULLS.

[MBC2K4]

I'm a huge Kobe fan & I have no problem saying that Duncan is the best player in the post-Jordan era... and this includes Kobe AND Shaq. GTFOH with this LeBron talk, dude is about to fall to 1-4 all-time against 50+ win teams in the playoffs.

[Kjeldar]

Tiger Woods?

:applause: :applause: :applause: :roll:


REP

[VCMVP1551]

I'm a huge Kobe fan & I have no problem saying that Duncan is the best player in the post-Jordan era... and this includes Kobe AND Shaq. GTFOH with this LeBron talk, dude is about to fall to 1-4 all-time against 50+ win teams in the playoffs.

There's no way Duncan should rank above Shaq.

[yeaaaman]

I trade 1/2 of LeBron's supporting casts just to have the chance to acquire Tony Parker. At Least Parker played consistently in the Regular Season and in the playoffs.

I seem to remember Tony Parker getting the hook for Speedy Claxton because he couldn't keep his composure or hit a jumpshot. Parker wasn't as good in each of those championship years as he is today.

[yeaaaman]

I'm not sure LeBron can ever dominate like Duncan.

People underestimate the power of controlling the paint on both offense and defense; and that's exactly what Duncan does.


If I'm starting a team, I'm taking Prime Duncan over Current LeBron all day, every day.

Someone was saying Phil Jackson said he would take Dwight over Lebron... is this true?

In any case I've always been of the belief you need a great big man in order to win a championship. There are a few exceptions, like Jordan and maybe Lebron in the future, but for now I feel you need a great big man. Shaq and Duncan have won something like 8 of the last 10 championships I think, which just adds to that idea.

[xtn5021]

Well next comparison maybe we should compare Chris Paul to KG or Bill Russell?

[CarpeDiemKJ]

I'd take TD everytime. The greatest PF of all time.

[Butters]

:mad: :mad: :mad:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

When will it end.

[Godfather]

Yes.

Give LeBron any of Duncan's teams and he would have a good chance of getting a ring. A better chance than he has now.

[tastystaci]

Yes.

Give LeBron any of Duncan's teams and he would have a good chance of getting a ring. A better chance than he has now.

Of course, but would he have 4??? That I doubt. Worse thread I've ever seen that wasn't deleted within minutes.

[Godfather]

Of course, but would he have 4??? That I doubt. Worse thread I've ever seen that wasn't deleted within minutes.
Considering the fact Duncan's teams changed from year to year I would say yes.

Remember Duncan didn't even win the Finals MVP against the Cavs, and has had a HOF coach coaching him through all the years.

In terms of overall game dominance they are on par.

In terms of accomplishments Duncan>>>>>LeBron

[highwhey]

Who is Lebron's competiton at forward? Melo? Hedo? Pierce? C'mon. Duncan took on Shaq in his prime and won, as well as guys like prime Webber, Amare, Dirk and KG at PF. Duncan was the best post player on both ends at his peak, and Lebron is getting a ton of hype for just improving his defensive effort.
Duncan never really shut them down though. Amare would score 30 on Duncan during the playoffs whenever he pleased, Dirk and KG could do the same. I am aware that Duncan would dominate both sides of the floor but he never killed his competition completely. I believe Duncan is getting more credit than he deserves for those rings. Not that he doesn't deserve credit, but he didn't win the titles by himself. Ginobili when healthy can play like an all star and flop like my lips when I motorboat a set of great ****, Parker is deadly with his game, unstoppable. Spurs were the most well rounded team in terms of Defense. I'm not making this argument with the intent to justify this thread, because everyone in their right minds knows Duncan is better than Lebron, in a few years that may change, but currently the clear winner is Duncan. No further discussion needed.

Anyways, I actually believe that Duncan and his team have it in them for 1 more run. Although everyone would have to be healthy, especially the Argentinian.

[bdreason]

Yes.

Give LeBron any of Duncan's teams and he would have a good chance of getting a ring. A better chance than he has now.



LeBron + Parker + Ginobili wouldn't win a ring.

[Showtime]

Duncan never really shut them down though.

It's not about shutting them down, it's about him being the best among better competition. Duncan beat better teams. Duncan outplayed better peers.


I believe Duncan is getting more credit than he deserves for those rings. Not that he doesn't deserve credit, but he didn't win the titles by himself. Ginobili when healthy can play like an all star and flop like my lips when I motorboat a set of great ****, Parker is deadly with his game, unstoppable.

Duncan won before Parker and Manu were all-star level talents.

[Richie2k6]

Based on the skill of playing the game of basketball or based on success?

[Godfather]

LeBron + Parker + Ginobili wouldn't win a ring.

You need to stop spewing ****.

Not only would they win a ring, but with Greg Pop as coach they would do so handily.

[bdreason]

You need to stop spewing ****.

Not only would they win a ring, but with Greg Pop as coach they would do so handily.

A good defensive team would shut that trio down.

Just clog the lane, and make them shoot jumpers.

[kNIOKAS]

rather have bron. bron sells!!!!!!!!!!!!! *****ez!!!

[booonkers]

Duncan fanboys and LeBron Haters = Combining Force. He's 33 yrs.old, and I am Glad that he's no longer going to win another NBA Championship unless Parker and Ginobili save his @rse in the First Round of the playoffs.

More like you're the Duncan hater and Lebron fanboy.

[All Net]

You need to stop spewing ****.

Not only would they win a ring, but with Greg Pop as coach they would do so handily.

You don't win the title in this league without some kind of inside game. Bare in mind the Manu who won his first title with the Spurs is not the player he is today.

Duncan won with sub par talent.

[vinsane01]

Why compare a SF to a C/PF? a goat pf at that.

Lebron is one hell of a basketball player. But heck gimme the goat pf anyday.

If you were to build a team and you have too choose between a current james and a prime duncan, who would you choose? Your an idiotic homer if you choose bron.

[Burgz]

Is current LeBron James a better player than prime Tim Duncan? Would you rather have current LeBron than Tim Duncan at his absolute peak?

I say yes easily. LeBron James is already the most dominant player of this century.

is this guy serious???

bill walton = hall of fame :confusedshrug:

[lakerHater]

Duncan has four rings....Bron 0

Sorry but championships is what defines a player IMO.
Two different positions...you want to argue about Duncan having a good team and coach blah blah blah...point is these teams are built around him and he brought them to the promise land plenty of times.


But for real DUNCAN needs more respect on these boards.


Seriously True!!

[ZeN]

Tim Duncan gets no respect.

[Dresta]

Tim Duncan being criminally underrated per usual, the answer to this dumbass question is a resounding no.

[LA_Showtime]

tim duncan fans might as well get used to it. it's going to be worse in 20-30 years. people are going to say his lack of athletic ability (or deceptive athleticism) would cause him to be ineffective. boy, i can't wait for that to happen. sarcasm for you idiots who can't tell

[NBASTATMAN]

Tim Duncan being criminally underrated per usual, the answer to this dumbass question is a resounding no.


Give me Tim Duncan over either Lebron or Kobe... Imagine if Duncan was paired with a true superstar..

[Dresta]

Duncan never really shut them down though. Amare would score 30 on Duncan during the playoffs whenever he pleased, Dirk and KG could do the same. I am aware that Duncan would dominate both sides of the floor but he never killed his competition completely. I believe Duncan is getting more credit than he deserves for those rings. Not that he doesn't deserve credit, but he didn't win the titles by himself. Ginobili when healthy can play like an all star and flop like my lips when I motorboat a set of great ****, Parker is deadly with his game, unstoppable. Spurs were the most well rounded team in terms of Defense. I'm not making this argument with the intent to justify this thread, because everyone in their right minds knows Duncan is better than Lebron, in a few years that may change, but currently the clear winner is Duncan. No further discussion needed.

Anyways, I actually believe that Duncan and his team have it in them for 1 more run. Although everyone would have to be healthy, especially the Argentinian.So what about his first two rings then, you know one without either of those two, and the other when they were young and not even close to being all-stars. He was absolutely dominant.

[Juges8932]

I would take Duncan over just about everybody in the history of basketball. He has been a solid player from his first season. The great thing about him is, even though he is visibly aging, his game never relied on athleticism so he is still just as effective.

I mean he is a skilled, selfless, hard-working, great defending big man who knows how to win and carries the right attitude with him. What more could you want?

[CeoTypeDoe619]

Whats duncan doing right now?????
He's great but people are overyping him like he threw a scrub team on his back and won 4 rings. He had a GREAT team. Yall make it seem like hes up and beyond everybody else. Kg is not to far off him. And thats just in this decade. He's a top 20 player idk about 10

[Gundress]

Tim Duncan rings: 4

LeBron James rings: 0

Duncan is the greatest PF of all time.

LeBron isn't the greatest SF of all time.

end thread/


Thank You....This is getting me sick. People give LeBron too much credit it.

Kobe has 4 rings
Wade has 1 rings
Tim Duncan has 4 rings
Jordan has 6 rings when he plays against in toughest era

LeBron has NO ring.

People needs to get off Lebron dick.

That's why I said LeBron James reminds me of Allen Iverson. Because both of them body freak, Allen Iverson's speed help his talent. LeBron James' speed help his talent. LeBron needs to working on Jump Shot, Post-Up, etc.

Allen Iverson and LeBron James = Won ESC championship, both went to finale champion series, both of them team wouldn't be shit if it weren't for LeBron or Iverson.

[Dresta]

Anyone that thinks Duncan had a 'great team' in 2003, is ****ing clueless.

Tell me when Lebron approaches this level of dominance:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306040SAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306080NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306110NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306130NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306150SAS.html

get a clue people

[Juges8932]

Thank You....This is getting me sick. People give LeBron too much credit it.

Kobe has 4 rings
Wade has 1 rings
Tim Duncan has 4 rings
Jordan has 6 rings when he plays against in toughest era

LeBron has NO ring.

People needs to get off Lebron dick.

That's why I said LeBron James reminds me of Allen Iverson. Because both of them body freak, Allen Iverson's speed help his talent. LeBron James' speed help his talent. LeBron needs to working on Jump Shot, Post-Up, etc.

Allen Iverson and LeBron James = Won ESC championship, both went to finale champion series, both of them team wouldn't be shit if it weren't for LeBron or Iverson.

You contradict yourself. First you talk about LBJ getting too much credit, then compare him to Iverson, while further proceeding to making ignorant claims that he needs to work on his jumper and post-up. He has been working on his jumper and since the second-half of last season after the all-star break his js has been noticeably better. He has a nice post-game, he just doesn't use it much, but that's a whole other issue. Then you say that he and Iverson both went to the finals but both of their teams wouldn't be shit without them? Hmm, wouldn't that mean that they carried their shit ass teams to the finals, therefore making it impressive that they even got there in the first place? You must not watch much LBJ of the past year and a half if you're talking all of this garbage. I'm not a fan of LBJ, but come on.

[rfm767]

Lebron James is overrated, if you don't believe me, re-read this thread title.

[NBASTATMAN]

Lebron James is overrated, if you don't believe me, re-read this thread title.


He is quickly getting on that Kobe level.. Both are great players but neither win as many titles as Duncan with the talent Duncan has played with...

[Gundress]

You contradict yourself. First you talk about LBJ getting too much credit, then compare him to Iverson, while further proceeding to making ignorant claims that he needs to work on his jumper and post-up. He has been working on his jumper and since the second-half of last season after the all-star break his js has been noticeably better. He has a nice post-game, he just doesn't use it much, but that's a whole other issue. Then you say that he and Iverson both went to the finals but both of their teams wouldn't be shit without them? Hmm, wouldn't that mean that they carried their shit ass teams to the finals, therefore making it impressive that they even got there in the first place? You must not watch much LBJ of the past year and a half if you're talking all of this garbage. I'm not a fan of LBJ, but come on.

Whoa...wait a min....

LeBron and Iverson are great players. I do give them credit for they carried their teams to the finals but I think people actually give LeBron "TOO MUCH CREDIT!" and they already compare him to Jordan when Jordan has 6 rings and LeBron has none.

The reason why I said LeBron reminds me of Iverson because of their speeds.

If it wasn't for speed...Iverson and LeBron aren't shit.. Both of them don't have decent basketball IQ.

Let me put this way....Larry Bird doesn't have speed, jump higher but he has one of the highest basketball IQ in the NBA...especially he plays physical in the 80's toughest era.

Right now, Iverson isn't shit now....you'll see when LeBron getting older and older...he wouldn't be shit just like Iverson. I am telling you that...Kevin Durant is way more talent than LeBron James.

[crisoner]

Jordan did not play in the toughest era (90's) see below..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/images/10/13/byron-scott.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2007/0222/dj2.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1081/1358454376_6e2c8268bd.jpg

http://themsgoodeaton.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/moses-and-dr-j.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0905/this.day.sports.history.may21/images/sampson-hakeem.jpg

http://www.sneakerfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wilkins-11.jpg


....etc.

[D.J.]

Anyone that thinks Duncan had a 'great team' in 2003, is ****ing clueless.

Tell me when Lebron approaches this level of dominance:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306040SAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306080NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306110NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306130NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306150SAS.html

get a clue people


It's not that Duncan had great teammates, but they understood their roles. They were very effective. Like game 1 for example. Stephen Jackson may have had an off night in terms of shooting, but he still put up 12/5/3/2. Admiral put up 14/6 with 4 blocks in just 27 minutes. Malik Rose put up 12/6 in just 24 minutes off the bench.

What made Duncan so effective and efficient was that he could score many points with a relatively low amount of field goal attempts. For instance:

Game 1- 32 points/17 attempts
Game 2- 19 points/19 attempts
Game 3- 21 points/13 attempts
Game 4- 23 points/23 attempts
Game 5- 29 points/18 attempts
Game 6- 21 points/19 attempts

If you take away games 4 and 6, Duncan never got to the foul line less than 10 times in a game. He was also lights out on defense.

[Gundress]

Jordan did not play in the toughest era (90's) see below..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/images/10/13/byron-scott.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2007/0222/dj2.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1081/1358454376_6e2c8268bd.jpg

http://themsgoodeaton.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/moses-and-dr-j.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0905/this.day.sports.history.may21/images/sampson-hakeem.jpg

http://www.sneakerfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wilkins-11.jpg


....etc.

stop talking out of your ass....Michael Jordan did play in the toughest era (90's) against Bad Boys, Knicks Cavs, Suns, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE

[Doranku]

Anyone that thinks Duncan had a 'great team' in 2003, is ****ing clueless.

Tell me when Lebron approaches this level of dominance:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306040SAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306080NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306110NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306130NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306150SAS.html

get a clue people

Holy shit, I didn't realize he was that dominant in that series. Dude had 7+ blocks in half the games, and that close-out performance in game 6... :eek:

[crisoner]

stop talking out of your ass....Michael Jordan did play in the toughest era (90's) against Bad Boys, Knicks, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE


Bad Boys is is straight up late 80's peaked in 88-89...

And you gunna say that Knicks team was better then the 80's Lakers and Celtics? GTFOH

I watched b-ball both decades 80's had the better comp no question.

[rmt]

Whats duncan doing right now?????
He's great but people are overyping him like he threw a scrub team on his back and won 4 rings. He had a GREAT team. Yall make it seem like hes up and beyond everybody else. Kg is not to far off him. And thats just in this decade. He's a top 20 player idk about 10

Duncan's averaging 18.7/10.4/3.1/1.6 in only 31.8 mins. He's being preserved for the playoffs.

He did win with scrub teams (especially 2003). He had no all-star in 1999 or 2003. Ginobili was an all-star in 2005 and Parker in 2007. Duncan has led more different players to rings than any other NBA great. Most of the other top-10 had stable teams. With Duncan, just plug in the role players (who were mostly veterans like Willis, Massenburg, Ferry, Kerr, Finley) or rookie/raw players like Stephen Jackson and Ginobili in 2003 and he carried them to championships.

KG was not the main reason that Boston won - Pierce was the man.

It's a pity that the front office decided to stand pat after the 2007 championship instead of reloading - didn't forsee the Gasol trade and Boston getting KG and Allen. They resigned the old vets instead of going with youth as Duncan/Ginobili/Parker aged and traded away Scola (good Odom/___mobile 4 defender). They should have paid up for Stephen Jackson (the perfect Nowitzi defender) in 03 and not scrimped because of luxury tax. They finally decide to spend and got the ill-suited Jefferson. Ah well, it was a great run.

[Big#50]

Holy shit, I didn't realize he was that dominant in that series. Dude had 7+ blocks in half the games, and that close-out performance in game 6... :eek:
24/17/5/5 is ugly.

[Gundress]

Bad Boys is is straight up late 80's peaked in 88-89...

And you gunna say that Knicks team was better then the 80's Lakers and Celtics? GTFOH

I watched b-ball both decades 80's had the better comp no question.

Wait a min, you went too far. I didn't say Pistons better than Lakers or Celtics but for some reason you only mentioned Lakers and Celtics teams?...because of Bird vs Magic?

Of course, Bad Boys was straight up late 80's to 90's. Knicks were a good teams, Heat, Cavs, Rockets, Hawks, Celtics, 76ers, etc. already toughest teams in 90's. They always hard foul on Jordan.

80's - 90's were the toughest era in NBA.

The only reason why I called you on because you said, "Michael Jordan didn't play in toughest era" which is bullshit. This is telling me that you didn't watch both decades....Come on, you should know that.

[D.J.]

I watched b-ball both decades 80's had the better comp no question.


The 80's had more elite teams(Lakers, Celtics, Pistons towards the end), but it was not at all uncommon to have teams with less than 40 wins(sometimes even 30-35) in the playoffs.

In the '90s, the Bulls were the only real consistently elite team. You would get the occasional 38-39 win team in the playoffs, but you would start to see 7th and 8th seeds that were around .500 or even better. There may not have been as many elite teams, but the competition was much more balanced.

[IcanzIIravor]

Yes, way better. Duncan was good but one of the most overrated players in history. I'd take prime KG over prime Duncan any day.

Duncan was never that consistent offensively and the refs bailed him out a lot.

Robert Horry had like seven rings so I guess he also better than Lebron.

I'd get a new name if I were you. It's like you never watched a single Spurs game.

[BlueandGold]

Anyone that thinks Duncan had a 'great team' in 2003, is ****ing clueless.

Tell me when Lebron approaches this level of dominance:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...306040SAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...306080NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...306110NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...306130NJN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...306150SAS.html

get a clue people


The Admiral, Bowen, Sjax, Parker and Manu is a bad team to you?

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

talent wise yes. talent wise Bron is already the 2nd most talented player to touch a ball behind MJ. You need a resume though to move up in an all time list. Talent alone doesnt get you there. Vince Carter was arguably a top 5-10 in talent in NBA history.

[RoseCity07]

Jordan did not play in the toughest era (90's) see below..

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0905/this.day.sports.history.may21/images/sampson-hakeem.jpg




This pic can not be real. :eek: They look like transformers. I mean the legs don't look real, they look photoshopped. This picture blows my mind.

[ILLsmak]

Whoever bumped this is dumb...

Uh, when this thread was made, I'd say no... but now it's pretty much for sure.

TD is overrated, as I have said, because he's the one person that is successful and that almost everyone likes... so if you are a hater then you can always say TD > (Kobe, Shaq, Bron... etc)

You might be able to lead a shitty team to the finals, but you can't win a ring with a shitty team. Even in the lockout season (asterisk!) they had a great team. How come nobody ever mentions Sean Elliot when they talk about the Spurs? I have to question how much all of these people who go out on a limb to defend Duncan have really watched him. He never had a bad team. He was put onto one of the best teams in the NBA because of an injury lotto pick. Is he a great player? Yes. Is he a great teammate? Yes. But to compare him to someone like LeBron is asinine.

Also, those people who say, "That's not Duncan's game" to dominate all the time.. maybe it's because he can't? That's no insult to Duncan, but look at it this way... throughout the course of a basketball game, opportunities come. A truly great player like Bron or MJ or Shaq in his prime... can create his opportunities whenever he wants them. There are some players who often refuse to wait for their opportunities (like Kobe.) Duncan was the master of laying back and getting his.

Like I once said, Duncan is like the kid you'd be playing ball with and would swish a shot and be like "21" and everyone else would stop and be like... what? That's a special talent, I admit, but nobody can honestly think if you put Duncan on a horrible team that he'd be averaging 30 ppg and leading them to the playoffs. AT LEAST, I know I don't.

Duncan is a great player, but he gets extremely overrated because of what I said, as well as people trying to make up for some fictional underrating... and lastly comparing him to PFs when he is really a C.

LeBron is doing something we haven't seen in awhile and might not see for awhile after, so enjoy it... STOP HATING.

-Smak

[Big#50]

The Admiral, Bowen, Sjax, Parker and Manu is a bad team to you?
36 year old DROB. Not the SJAX of now. 13/3/3 player. Manu 9/2/2. TP who averaged 15/4/3. At times benched in favor of Speedy Claxton. Don't hold me to this numbers. I'm just going by memory. Bowen was a good defender but Kobe had his way in their series.
Do you think that's a good team? I doubt Lebron would win with that team. I doubt Shaq would win a ring with that team. Duncan's D made that team good.

[Big#50]

Whoever bumped this is dumb...

Uh, when this thread was made, I'd say no... but now it's pretty much for sure.

TD is overrated, as I have said, because he's the one person that is successful and that almost everyone likes... so if you are a hater then you can always say TD > (Kobe, Shaq, Bron... etc)

You might be able to lead a shitty team to the finals, but you can't win a ring with a shitty team. Even in the lockout season (asterisk!) they had a great team. How come nobody ever mentions Sean Elliot when they talk about the Spurs? I have to question how much all of these people who go out on a limb to defend Duncan have really watched him. He never had a bad team. He was put onto one of the best teams in the NBA because of an injury lotto pick. Is he a great player? Yes. Is he a great teammate? Yes. But to compare him to someone like LeBron is asinine.

Also, those people who say, "That's not Duncan's game" to dominate all the time.. maybe it's because he can't? That's no insult to Duncan, but look at it this way... throughout the course of a basketball game, opportunities come. A truly great player like Bron or MJ or Shaq in his prime... can create his opportunities whenever he wants them. There are some players who often refuse to wait for their opportunities (like Kobe.) Duncan was the master of laying back and getting his.

Like I once said, Duncan is like the kid you'd be playing ball with and would swish a shot and be like "21" and everyone else would stop and be like... what? That's a special talent, I admit, but nobody can honestly think if you put Duncan on a horrible team that he'd be averaging 30 ppg and leading them to the playoffs. AT LEAST, I know I don't.

Duncan is a great player, but he gets extremely overrated because of what I said, as well as people trying to make up for some fictional underrating... and lastly comparing him to PFs when he is really a C.

LeBron is doing something we haven't seen in awhile and might not see for awhile after, so enjoy it... STOP HATING.

-Smak
Who said Tim didn't dominate? I get it. He didn't average 30ppg for a season. The day you watch a prime Duncan play D youll be mindblowned. Oh, Duncan>Lebron para siempre. If Lebron wins 3 rings he might have a case. The Spurs weren't a great team when Tim came into the league. Get your head out of your ass, buddy.

[SCdac]

anybody who thinks Duncan "didn't dominate" in any way is crazy and simply didn't watch him...

Tim Duncan singlehandedly put the Spurs franchise into another level of contention, ... a franchise that David Robinson, Elliot, Johnson, Bob Hill, etc, could never get over the hump and into the Finals.

the 22 year old rookie put up 32 & 10 in the face of Antonio McDyess, Hot Rod Williams, and Clifford Robinson in his first playoff game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_fD0QA5g1E

that was just his first post-season game. posting up and making moves all over, really methodical basketball yet quick and precise, with a soft touch around the basket and underrated jump shot... ON TOP of all-nba defense and elite shot blocking... he's gotten 4 championships and 3 Finals MVP's since that game in April 1998... some of those with entirely different supporting casts.

[LA_Showtime]

anybody who thinks Duncan "didn't dominate" in any way is crazy and simply didn't watch him...

Tim Duncan singlehandedly put the Spurs franchise into another level of contention, ... a franchise that David Robinson, Elliot, Johnson, Bob Hill, etc, could never get over the hump and into the Finals.

the 22 year old rookie put up 32 & 10 in the face of Antonio McDyess, Hot Rod Williams, and Clifford Robinson in his first playoff game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_fD0QA5g1E

that was just his first post-season game. posting up and making moves all over, really methodical basketball yet quick and precise, with a soft touch around the basket and underrated jump shooter... ON TOP of all-nba defense and elite shot blocking... he's gotten 4 championships and 3 Finals MVP's since that game in April 1998... some of those with entirely different supporting casts.

Bob Hill... why do I have no idea who the hell that is? When I think of Bob Hill, I think of the guy on Around the Horn.

[KG215]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_fD0QA5g1E


:bowdown: Un-freakin-believable. His fundamentals, footwork, and touch around the rim as a ROOKIE are just unreal.

Was D-Rob even on the floor? If so, he was invisible. :D

[Killuminati90]

Nice thread and hard question. I mean, prime Duncan is the best PF of all time, was very dominant and his dominance came from his fundamentals, guy knew what he had to do every play and how he had to do it. I never liked Spurs winning style but I have to admit Duncan was and still is a great leader.

I think it all comes to winning rings. Duncan has proven to have won some chips (4, not bad, :lol ) and Lebron still hasnt won. Im not saying James is bad, probably on an individual level Lebron has reached prime Duncan`s level or even more, but Timmy has proven to be a winner, you can give your confidence to him on important games and as a leader or franchise player he hasnt dissapointed.

Lebron James still has time but he has to start winning now, it will be difficult for him to reach the status of players like Magic, Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Duncan...etc if he doesnt start to win chips.

Anyway, if I had to start a franchise from 0 and had to choose between one of these 2, id choose Tim Duncan. Not because I dont like LJ, but because I think you will achieve more in basketball having a C or a PF as your franchise player. If you have a big inside superstar player, a good outside scorer and a couple of role players you have big big chances of winning. History has proven us this, specially in the last decade.

But in terms of pure individual level, both them are equal, I think this is already Lebron`s prime and its hard to say if its better or worse than Duncan`s, lets say equal.

[Aydin]

you cant even think to compare Tim Duncan with a commercial hero

[PistonsFan#21]

you cant even think to compare Tim Duncan with a commercial hero

That commercial hero is about to get his 2nd straight MVP and is aknowledged by many of the NBA legends as a player that could go down as the greatest of all time (something that no one would ever say about Duncan). He is also clearly the best player in the league today which is something that Duncan has never been at any point in his career before

[SayTownRy]

That commercial hero is about to get his 2nd straight MVP and is aknowledged by many of the NBA legends as a player that could go down as the greatest of all time (something that no one would ever say about Duncan). He is also clearly the best player in the league today which is something that Duncan has never been at any point in his career before

oh yeah, duncan's never been the best player in the league. :oldlol:

this thread is jokes.

[ukplayer4]

That commercial hero is about to get his 2nd straight MVP and is aknowledged by many of the NBA legends as a player that could go down as the greatest of all time (something that no one would ever say about Duncan). He is also clearly the best player in the league today which is something that Duncan has never been at any point in his career before



actually alot of people were saying they thought duncan was the best player in the league in 98-99- his second season when he led the spurs to the title. i specifically remember doug collins aying it several times.

[PistonsFan#21]

oh yeah, duncan's never been the best player in the league. :oldlol:

this thread is jokes.

tell me what year he was the best player? He definately wasn't the best during the Shaq era and after that there was Kobe, Wade, Lebron.

[PistonsFan#21]

actually alot of people were saying they thought duncan was the best player in the league in 98-99- his second season when he led the spurs to the title. i specifically remember doug collins aying it several times.

Maybe Doug Collins said that but if you asked that question to the rest of the league and to other analysts they would all pick Shaq over Duncan (most of them atleast)

[BlueandGold]

36 year old DROB. Not the SJAX of now. 13/3/3 player. Manu 9/2/2. TP who averaged 15/4/3. At times benched in favor of Speedy Claxton. Don't hold me to this numbers. I'm just going by memory. Bowen was a good defender but Kobe had his way in their series.
Do you think that's a good team? I doubt Lebron would win with that team. I doubt Shaq would win a ring with that team. Duncan's D made that team good.


I'm the biggest duncan fan there is... better than Shaq imo but you can't deny that that team was at least riddled with talent.

[Kellogs4toniee]

tell me what year he was the best player? He definately wasn't the best during the Shaq era and after that there was Kobe, Wade, Lebron.


Who the hell cares how many years he was the best player. It doesn't matter how many years your the best player. What matters the most is how much of an impact you have on your team and its success. Lebron right now is easily the MVP of the league, no questions about that.

However, Duncan for over 10 years though has annually contended for the MVP award, and proved that an ownership can surround him with any talent and still manage to make a championship level team. 4 rings don't lie.

In terms of individual play and talent, Lebron is higher. In terms of the game of basketball, Tim Duncan is still the "overall basketball" player as of right now when reflecting upon there careers.

I lol'd at the people who said Duncan was never able to dominate. Just looking at his playoff series numbers during his prime will negate any such thought.

[zizozain]

NBA Experience > any other form of basketball experience
Fact.
lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

The great thing about him is, even though he is visibly aging, his game never relied on athleticism so he is still just as effective.


Well, that's not entirely true, Duncan has declined quite a bit from his peak seasons in 2002 and 2003. He's not nearly that dominant, and there's even a clear difference between Duncan in 2007 and Duncan now, particularly as far as defense and stamina.


He did win with scrub teams (especially 2003). He had no all-star in 1999 or 2003. Ginobili was an all-star in 2005 and Parker in 2007. Duncan has led more different players to rings than any other NBA great. Most of the other top-10 had stable teams. With Duncan, just plug in the role players (who were mostly veterans like Willis, Massenburg, Ferry, Kerr, Finley) or rookie/raw players like Stephen Jackson and Ginobili in 2003 and he carried them to championships.

Nobody wins a championship with a scrub team. In fairness, Duncan didn't have a legit all-star teammate on that team.

Parker gave the team quickness and he had the ability to penetrate and score. Parker was inconsistent, but he killed the Lakers in the final 2 games of that series with a 21 point game and a 27 point game. He also killed Dallas the first 4 games of the WCF averaging 22.8 ppg in those games to help establish a 3-1 lead. He also had a 29 point game vs Phoenix to lead all scorers and he torched Jason Kidd in the first 3 games of the finals(people were saying Parker was outplaying him, he averaged 21 ppg in those games, his 26 point/6 assist game three got homecourt advantage back.

Stephen Jackson hit some huge shots in the playoffs. In the first 3 games of the playoffs he had three straight 20 point games averaging 22/6/4. He closed out that series with a 21/6/5 and he led the Spurs in scoring that game. In fact Jackson led the Spurs in scoring in game 1, game 5 and game 6.
In the Western Conference Finals he shot over 50% in each of the last 5 games and finished off the series with back to back 20 point games. His 24 points in game 6 led all scorers. He also hit five threes in that game and took just 14 shots.

Ginobili came off the bench and gave San Antonio a very productive duo at the shooting guard position. Ginobili also had some big games and he gave them a spark in the Lakers series with Jackson struggling. He came off the bench and averaged 12/3/3/2 on 51% shooting in the series. He also had a huge game 4 vs Dallas to give the Spurs a commanding 3-1 lead. He put up 21 points and 6 rebounds on 8/12 shooting with three 3s off the bench. Ginobili could penetrate, make plays, finish at the rim and hit 3s. He wasn't always consistent, but he was a 6th man and very rarely were he and Jackson both ineffective at the same time.

Malik Rose averaged 10/6 and he gave them energy and quickness at the power forward position which was key because David Robinson was older at that point. In fact, Rose gave them option of having two effective big men on the court at all times, whether it be the twin towers attack of Duncan/Robinson or a more conventional lineup with Duncan at the 5 and Rose at the 4. Rose had a monster game 5 to break a 2/2 tie with Phoenix. He had 27 and 13 on 9/17 shooting. In fact he averaged 14/9 in 26 mpg in the 6 game series vs Phoenix. He also had a 25/6 game in game 2 of the WCF after Dallas had stolen homecourt and game 1. His energy and explosiveness caused him to get to the line 10+ times in 4 different playoff games, including 18 in one game.

David Robinson still played solid defense, blocked shots, hit jumpshots, finished when he caught the ball around the rim, passed well and gave the Spurs a good high/low combo. Robinson was still capable of having good games and he had an 18/9 game in the playoffs on 8/8 shooting. He opened up the WCSF with 14/11 to help the Spurs get a game 1 victory over the Lakers. D Rob also averaged 11/7/2 in limited minutes on 61% shooting including a big 13/17 game to help clinch a championship.

Bruce Bowen was arguably the best perimeter defender in the league and held Kobe Bryant to 43% shooting and 4.5 turnovers per game in the WCSF. Bowen also could contribute with his scoring once in a while. He had a 19 point game on 7/8 shooting vs Phoenix with five threes. He also had a huge 27 point game on 10/12 shooting with seven threes vs the Lakers to give the Spurs a 2-0 lead. His 27 points led the Spurs and tied him with Shaq and Kobe for the scoring lead in that game. he held Kobe to 9/24 shooting with 5 turnovers and just 1 assist in that game.

Speedy Claxton was a solid backup point guard who had double digit scoring games in game 4 and game 6 of the finals with Parker struggling. He also had a 15 point game on 6/7 shooting in the game 2 victory over the Lakers and 10 points and 7 assists in the game 2 victory over Phoenix.

What the Spurs had was a good mix of youth and veteran leadership and a good amount of athleticism, particularly compared to later teams. Because they had two talented shooting guards who could both score or make plays, they almost always got a productive night out of that position, whether it be Ginobili, Jackson or both. Parker was typically their second best player, but Speedy Claxton picked up some of the load when Parker struggled in the last few games of the finals. Bowen gave them a great defender and he could hit corner 3's consistently(he led the league in 3P%). Rose and Robinson gave them the option of having an effective big man next to Duncan almost all the time and it also gave them the option of playing a big lineup with Robinson next to Duncan or a normal, quicker lineup with Rose next to Duncan.


KG was not the main reason that Boston won - Pierce was the man.

You can't possibly believe this. KG was the defensive player of the year on a team that won because of their defense, finished 3rd in MVP voting, led the team in poins per minute, rebounds per game and he led the team in scoring and rebounding during the playoffs.

[SayTownRy]

tell me what year he was the best player? He definately wasn't the best during the Shaq era and after that there was Kobe, Wade, Lebron.

you could make a case for just about any year of his career, especially the first 10 years. you could say his 2 back to back mvp seasons (since you've put lebron on a pedestal for potentially accomplishing this).

you could say 2003 for sure as he won it all with a worse supporting cast than lebron's had at his disposal.

to say that he's never been the best player is just ridiculous though man and makes you look like a biased hater.

[ShaqAttack3234]

you could make a case for just about any year of his career, especially the first 10 years. you could say his 2 back to back mvp seasons (since you've put lebron on a pedestal for potentially accomplishing this).

you could say 2003 for sure as he won it all with a worse supporting cast than lebron's had at his disposal.

to say that he's never been the best player is just ridiculous though man and makes you look like a biased hater.

IMO, Duncan was the best in 2003 and he probably played better than anyone in 1999 as well. You could make a case for 2002, 2004, 2005 and even 2007 as well.

[PistonsFan#21]

you could make a case for just about any year of his career, especially the first 10 years. you could say his 2 back to back mvp seasons (since you've put lebron on a pedestal for potentially accomplishing this).

you could say 2003 for sure as he won it all with a worse supporting cast than lebron's had at his disposal.

to say that he's never been the best player is just ridiculous though man and makes you look like a biased hater.

He was never better than Shaq from 2000-2004...Nothing ridiculous about that. Then there was Garnett, Kobe, Wade, James and even Nowitzki now is better.

And LOL at you saying Duncan's supporting cast was worse than Lebron's.

Tony Parker >>> Damon Jones
Manu Ginobili >>>> Pavlovic
Bruce Bowen and Stephen Jackson > Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes
Robinson < Ilgauskas
Malik Rose = Varejao

[theguru]

Duncan carried a horrible team to the finals and won. Worse then Lebron's teammates in 07 and 08.

I'm sorry, but that is just absolutely absurd. 07, Duncan wasn't even finals mvp.

[LA_Showtime]

I'm sorry, but that is just absolutely absurd. 07, Duncan wasn't even finals mvp.

he's probably referring to duncan's second title run.

[SRZ66]

i'll take lebron all day everday. lol at duncan being more "skilled"

passing- lebron
shooting- lebron
dribbling- lebron
athletisicm- lebron
16 foot bank shots from the elbow- duncan

so sick of the ring count comeback. steve kerr > barkley

[SayTownRy]

i'll take lebron all day everday. lol at duncan being more "skilled"

passing- lebron
shooting- lebron
dribbling- lebron
athletisicm- lebron
16 foot bank shots from the elbow- duncan

so sick of the ring count comeback. steve kerr > barkley

that other thing that takes place on the other side of the court - duncan

[theguru]

People who think that this is an obvious question on either side need to re-adjust their thought process. I say Lebron by a hair. 2003 Duncan was dam good though.

[SCdac]

LOL @ the idea of Duncan being "unskilled".

I swear all anybody cares about today is flash and style.

Go back and watch prime Duncan and tell me he didn't have skill.

[lilgodfather1]

This is about as close as a question can be. They are really hard to compare as they both have different roles in their teams and are completely diferent positions. I guess the question at hand could be answered in part by switching their positions, could TD play SF offensively and defensively and could LBJ play PF offensively and defensively. I know that Duncan couldn't handle the ball well enough to play SF lke LeBron, and he isn't athletic enough to do it either. LeBron can and does play PF though so the answer for him is yes. But that doesn't mean LeBron is better.

LeBron is better at

passing
handling
scoring
shooting
much more athletic


Duncan is better at

rebounding
posting up
defending


To me they are pretty much evenly matched in terms of impact on their teams. I'd say LeBron is the better player by a hair, but Duncan is no slouch and is IMO the player of the decade.

[Dresta]

He was never better than Shaq from 2000-2004...Nothing ridiculous about that. Then there was Garnett, Kobe, Wade, James and even Nowitzki now is better.

And LOL at you saying Duncan's supporting cast was worse than Lebron's.

Tony Parker >>> Damon Jones
Manu Ginobili >>>> Pavlovic
Bruce Bowen and Stephen Jackson > Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes
Robinson < Ilgauskas
Malik Rose = Varejaohttp://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200305150LAL.html

Duncan was the best player in the league in 2003, this is undeniable, he led a bunch of roleplayers to the championship with one of the most dominant performances ever. Are you seriously telling me Shaq's team is worse then Duncan's there?

People who say Duncan didn't dominate are freakin idiots, 25/17/5/5 with amazing defense isn't dominating? What a bunch of morons most of the people on this site are.

[GOBB]

To me they are pretty much evenly matched in terms of impact on their teams. I'd say LeBron is the better player by a hair, but Duncan is no slouch and is IMO the player of the decade.

How are you the best player of the decade but Bron is better than you? lol

This is some Kanye West "I know you're the best player of the decade and all Duncan, but Bron is better." Remove yourself from the stage.


so sick of the ring count comeback. steve kerr > barkley

Barkley was a franchise player, #1 scoring option, among the best at his position and just general. Steve Kerr was a role player. And often had a specific role which was to shoot.

Bron and Duncan are more comparable than Barkley and Kerr. Just based on knowing Duncan, Bron, Barkley are not role players but franchise players. So comparing franchise players whose impact on the game, thier team is fair game in respect to rings.

Now if you want to argue teams, situations and other variables? Thats a different story. Go back to 2001 and I'll tell you AI > Kobe, dispite Kobe having rings on his fingers. I just think your comparison is all wrong. And that you cant totally discount rings if each player you are discussing roles are identical to a degree.

That said I have trouble finding out how Bron is a better player than Duncan ever was. Just dont see an argument until Bron continues to add accolades to his resume outside of just "stats". MVP, Fnals MVP, rings. The only way a player can bypass that is simply dominating the game like we've never seen before. And that is pretty much an impossible feat for one to reach soooooo, Duncan > Bron. If Bron is better than Duncan than that means people have Bron in thier top 10 players of all time lists. That means Bron has to be better than Shaq or have arguments for it as well. I dont see it not because I choose not too. But because Duncan is an amazing player. To simply be topped in what seems overnight (in Brons case) isnt registering. :confusedshrug:

[Aydin]

That commercial hero is about to get his 2nd straight MVP and is aknowledged by many of the NBA legends as a player that could go down as the greatest of all time (something that no one would ever say about Duncan). He is also clearly the best player in the league today which is something that Duncan has never been at any point in his career before

It isnt gonna change anything he is the comercial and marketting hero of mba i dont care how many reward he can get

just dont compare Tim Duncan with a guy like whom he thinks he was a chosen one ( wtf )

Comparing Tim Duncan with L.James is useless, compare james with bryant

dont try to understand Tim Duncan and his approach to game of basketball ,
just have fun with fancy dunks

[SCdac]

For somebody who is considered a definite "worse shooter", how did Duncan have a better season from the charity stripe (79.9 FT%) than Lebron has ever had? I understand Lebron has way more range and a better career FT% (not by much), but Duncan's shooting form and jump shot tends to be underrated.

[lilgodfather1]

How are you the best player of the decade but Bron is better than you? lol

This is some Kanye West "I know you're the best player of the decade and all Duncan, but Bron is better." Remove yourself from the stage.



Barkley was a franchise player, #1 scoring option, among the best at his position and just general. Steve Kerr was a role player. And often had a specific role which was to shoot.

Bron and Duncan are more comparable than Barkley and Kerr. Just based on knowing Duncan, Bron, Barkley are not role players but franchise players. So comparing franchise players whose impact on the game, thier team is fair game in respect to rings.

Now if you want to argue teams, situations and other variables? Thats a different story. Go back to 2001 and I'll tell you AI > Kobe, dispite Kobe having rings on his fingers. I just think your comparison is all wrong. And that you cant totally discount rings if each player you are discussing roles are identical to a degree.

That said I have trouble finding out how Bron is a better player than Duncan ever was. Just dont see an argument until Bron continues to add accolades to his resume outside of just "stats". MVP, Fnals MVP, rings. The only way a player can bypass that is simply dominating the game like we've never seen before. And that is pretty much an impossible feat for one to reach soooooo, Duncan > Bron. If Bron is better than Duncan than that means people have Bron in thier top 10 players of all time lists. That means Bron has to be better than Shaq or have arguments for it as well. I dont see it not because I choose not too. But because Duncan is an amazing player. To simply be topped in what seems overnight (in Brons case) isnt registering. :confusedshrug:
TD has 3 championships, 2 FMVPs and 2 MVPs this decade. Why would I not consider him the player of the decade? LeBron has an MVP and that's it, therefore Duncans decade was better than LeBrons, but LeBron is better by a bit.

[crisoner]

^^^ TD has four championships......

[Dave3]

^^^ TD has four championships......
He's talking about the decade.

[G.O.A.T]

so sick of the ring count comeback. steve kerr > barkley

If you're that stupid...

[Big#50]

tell me what year he was the best player? He definately wasn't the best during the Shaq era and after that there was Kobe, Wade, Lebron.
Wade shouldn't be in this discussion. Duncan was the best player in the league in 99, 02, 03, I'd even say 07.

[Dresta]

Don't see why Wade wouldn't be in the discussion, when you're talking about the best player in the league, in 2005/6 and first half of 06/07 season, Wade would be a good pick.

[ILLsmak]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200305150LAL.html

Are you seriously telling me Shaq's team is worse then Duncan's there?



They certainly played much worse.

I finally realize why you were in that other thread hating on Shaq! It's all coming together now.

Go through the box scores, if you are going to post them, and look at everyones stats.

Also, now that I really think about it. Yes... Shaq's team IS worse. There is much more talent on SAS. Lakers have Kobe and Shaq, and when Kobe was playing stupid and forcing shots, they have nothing.

Look at how poorly the shooters shot for LA. You are definitely biased...

Nobody is saying TD isn't a great player, but the idea that he willed a team to a championship is just as idiotic as Hakeem willing a team to a championship. That team was a great team, you don't win a championship without a great team. I don't know why you want to live that fantasy in order to hype up TD in your mind...

But on the other hand, if you want to play the bias game... the Lakers when Kobe is not playing well had no other player to step up on the perimeter.

For future reference, Shaq is much better than Duncan. It could be agued that Shaq out performed Duncan in every game in that series you posted EXCEPT one, and the Lakers won that one!

-Smak

[SCdac]

Illsmak, did you ever watch prime Duncan?

the notion that he was "the master of laying back and getting his", is absurd.

A guy who was top-5 in MVP voting in almost every season of his career is not just a "great player".

His scoring, rebounding, and shot blocking all increased in the post season... In 2002 and 2003 he was dishing more assists in the playoffs than the starting point guard Parker.

[lilgodfather1]

Wade shouldn't be in this discussion. Duncan was the best player in the league in 99, 02, 03, I'd even say 07.
I agree with you Duncan was the best in the league in 99, 03 and 07, I wouldn't say 02 personally, but he was certainly up there thats for sure.

[dynasty1978]

Illsmak, did you ever watch prime Duncan?

the notion that he was "the master of laying back and getting his", is absurd.

A guy who was top-5 in MVP voting in almost every season of his career is not just a "great player".

His scoring, rebounding, and shot blocking all increased in the post season... In 2002 and 2003 he was dishing more assists in the playoffs than the starting point guard Parker.

This. Duncan was an absolute terror in the post season earlier in his career. The way he dismantled the Lakers in 2003 was tough to watch but couldn't help but appreciate the effort....37 and 16.

[Big#50]

I agree with you Duncan was the best in the league in 99, 03 and 07, I wouldn't say 02 personally, but he was certainly up there thats for sure.
25.5/12.7/2.5 51% fg and 80%ft who was better?

[Dresta]

They certainly played much worse.

I finally realize why you were in that other thread hating on Shaq! It's all coming together now.

Go through the box scores, if you are going to post them, and look at everyones stats.

Also, now that I really think about it. Yes... Shaq's team IS worse. There is much more talent on SAS. Lakers have Kobe and Shaq, and when Kobe was playing stupid and forcing shots, they have nothing.

Look at how poorly the shooters shot for LA. You are definitely biased...

Nobody is saying TD isn't a great player, but the idea that he willed a team to a championship is just as idiotic as Hakeem willing a team to a championship. That team was a great team, you don't win a championship without a great team. I don't know why you want to live that fantasy in order to hype up TD in your mind...

But on the other hand, if you want to play the bias game... the Lakers when Kobe is not playing well had no other player to step up on the perimeter.

For future reference, Shaq is much better than Duncan. It could be agued that Shaq out performed Duncan in every game in that series you posted EXCEPT one, and the Lakers won that one!

-Smak
How many all-stars did Duncan have on his team? Shaq had one superstar, and two of the greatest role players. While Duncan had D-Robs carcass, crazy cpt jack, and two newbie international players. But ok, Duncan's team was much better :roll:. I never even liked Duncan really until i realized how absurdly underrated he is by most people just because he doesn't do anything flashy.

[raptorfan_dr07]

He is also clearly the best player in the league today which is something that Duncan has never been at any point in his career before

2003, that's when he took that mantle away from Shaq, who had been the best player in the league since MJ retired. I'd say TD had a healthy run of being the best player in the league for a good 3 or so years after that. Some people will argue KG was better in 2004 and what not, and they have a legit argument, but give me Duncan.

As for the question at hand? I know I'm just reiterating what many others already have said, but Tim Duncan's a proven winner. Widely regarded as the GOAT PF. His playoff run in 2003 was one of the greatest of all time, IMO. He toppled the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in dominating fashion and had an epic Finals. He's been the cornerstone of 4 championship teams. Lebron James does not impact the game defensively like a prime Tim Duncan did. Duncan was dominant on both ends of the floor. He isn't flashy and he doesn't grab his balls when he dunks, or cheap shot players with elbows, or prance around the court when he scores which is why the casual(moronic) fan doesn't think Duncan was "dominant" offensively. Probably my most favorite aspect of Duncan is how humble he is. Out of all the guys who people rank in their top 10, he's probably the most humble out of them all. He knows he's great, but he prefers to let his game do all the talking. Ron Artest said it best:

"I remember one time Kevin Garnett was mushing him, and shoving him in the face; and Tim Duncan didn't do anything, he didn't react. He just kicked Kevin Garnett's ass, and won the damn championship. You know what I'm sayin'? That's gangsta. Everybody can show emotion, dunk on somebody, scream and be real cocky; but Tim Duncan is a ... he's a pimp."

IMO, he's the player of the decade, and I say IMO because I know some believe it's Shaq, and they have a legit case for it. Tim Duncan is the epitome of everything that is right with the NBA.

[Timmy D for MVP]

If you're that stupid...

This.

It is clear that Tim Duncan led his team to the championship. Because that is what the team's leader does, often reffered to as the man.

Steve Kerr has never been the man on his team, Barkley was.

Since Tim Duncan and Lebron are both their team's leaders it is fair to compare titles when team comparisons balance out too. And it can be said that both at one point had similar talent levels on their team, one won championships and the other did not.

I think TD wins this if you really think about it. The effect he has on the defensive end is greater than Lebron's simply for the fact that he alters the opposing team's gameplan due to his shot alteration.

If I'm picking someone to start a team around it's going to be Tim.

[lilgodfather1]

25.5/12.7/2.5 51% fg and 80%ft who was better?
I would say Shaq daddy my man. 27/10/3 on .555 shooting and 2 blocks. FT shooting and rebounding Duncan had the edge, but Shaq daddy was the man that year.

[lilgodfather1]

This.

It is clear that Tim Duncan led his team to the championship. Because that is what the team's leader does, often reffered to as the man.

Steve Kerr has never been the man on his team, Barkley was.

Since Tim Duncan and Lebron are both their team's leaders it is fair to compare titles when team comparisons balance out too. And it can be said that both at one point had similar talent levels on their team, one won championships and the other did not.

I think TD wins this if you really think about it. The effect he has on the defensive end is greater than Lebron's simply for the fact that he alters the opposing team's gameplan due to his shot alteration.

If I'm picking someone to start a team around it's going to be Tim.
I agree with the premise, but I would like to point out that LeBrons defensive impact is also a game changer. He changes the way teams do fast breaks because of his ability to get back on the play, he routinely either blocks the shot or he alters the shot in some way. LeBrons offensive game is greater than Duncans though, and his passing ability is second only to the great Magic and his leadership is basically on par with Duncans. I like TD, he is one of the most under rated player ever even though everyone has him in the top 8 AT, but LeBron this year is better than Duncan ever was. Will James be greater, maybe maybe not, but he is already better.

Edit: and I agree about the picking TD to start a team with. I would choose LeBron over and body if I were to start a team with a couple of exceptions, TD, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt and that's it, notice how it is all big men? Well I always believe that a star big is more important than a star wing player.

[ILLsmak]

How many all-stars did Duncan have on his team? Shaq had one superstar, and two of the greatest role players. While Duncan had D-Robs carcass, crazy cpt jack, and two newbie international players. But ok, Duncan's team was much better :roll:. I never even liked Duncan really until i realized how absurdly underrated he is by most people just because he doesn't do anything flashy.


If you're talking about Horry, he played pretty poorly in that series. Same with Fisher. They played OK. In the one game they played well, the Lakers won handily...

The Spurs had way more people stepping up. Look at the box scores again.

All stars mean nothing when it could be said that by that time Kobe and Shaq did not complement each other. Two players getting 30 is only 60 points. If nobody else does anything or if one of the guys who you count on to get 30 is having a bad game, then it's over. Yes, Shaq and Kobe were really good during the 3 peat... that's why they 3 peated. But by that time things were breaking down and the Lakers role players were starting to slip, too. That's pretty much why they didn't win anymore.

It's insulting that people can say I haven't watched Duncan because I don't rate him as one of the greatest players of all time. Or when you can say with a straight face Prime Duncan > Prime Shaq. Keep in mind that Duncan is like 5 years younger than Shaq, so all of the head to head comparisons are slightly skewed. Not to say Shaq wasn't doing his, but lately it's really come into play because Shaq is old.

So, this is what I'm saying. Duncan isn't one of the greatest players ever. He's not better than Shaq, and he's definitely not better than LeBron now. Being one of the hugest Shaq fans ever, I have the ability to admit that LeBron now is better than Prime Shaq without batting an eye. LeBron is the ****ing GOAT and if you don't see that you are crazy. Nobody has in the modern era has come close to his impact. A playmaker AND a 30 ppg scorer... at 6'8? Grabbing boards from centers? Man... you guys just need to grasp reality. Sorry if you don't like LeBron, but he is AT LEAST on the same level as MJ (although MJ fans will always hold onto MJ's GOATness because I bet Bron will never get 6 rings... and probably never 3 peat.)

I'll stop this dead end argument. We both know how the other feels.

-Smak

[CeoTypeDoe619]

If you're talking about Horry, he played pretty poorly in that series. Same with Fisher. They played OK. In the one game they played well, the Lakers won handily...

The Spurs had way more people stepping up. Look at the box scores again.

All stars mean nothing when it could be said that by that time Kobe and Shaq did not complement each other. Two players getting 30 is only 60 points. If nobody else does anything or if one of the guys who you count on to get 30 is having a bad game, then it's over. Yes, Shaq and Kobe were really good during the 3 peat... that's why they 3 peated. But by that time things were breaking down and the Lakers role players were starting to slip, too. That's pretty much why they didn't win anymore.

It's insulting that people can say I haven't watched Duncan because I don't rate him as one of the greatest players of all time. Or when you can say with a straight face Prime Duncan > Prime Shaq. Keep in mind that Duncan is like 5 years younger than Shaq, so all of the head to head comparisons are slightly skewed. Not to say Shaq wasn't doing his, but lately it's really come into play because Shaq is old.

So, this is what I'm saying. Duncan isn't one of the greatest players ever. He's not better than Shaq, and he's definitely not better than LeBron now. Being one of the hugest Shaq fans ever, I have the ability to admit that LeBron now is better than Prime Shaq without batting an eye. LeBron is the ****ing GOAT and if you don't see that you are crazy. Nobody has in the modern era has come close to his impact. A playmaker AND a 30 ppg scorer... at 6'8? Grabbing boards from centers? Man... you guys just need to grasp reality. Sorry if you don't like LeBron, but he is AT LEAST on the same level as MJ (although MJ fans will always hold onto MJ's GOATness because I bet Bron will never get 6 rings... and probably never 3 peat.)

I'll stop this dead end argument. We both know how the other feels.

-Smak

Lmao Cry Me A River Brah:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Lebron aint better then Duncan & Shaq in their prime
He aint even better then Kobe today and brah is 31 lmfao

[Lebron23]

Lmao Cry Me A River Brah:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Lebron aint better then Duncan & Shaq in their prime
He aint even better then Kobe today and brah is 31 lmfao

You are a dumb @$$.

LeBron and Durant are better than Kobe this season. Kobe is currently ranked 4th in the NBA MVP Race.

[lilgodfather1]

You are a dumb @$$.

LeBron and Durant are better than Kobe this season. Kobe is currently ranked 4th in the NBA MVP Race.
MVP does not = better than. But I agree LeBron is a better player than Durant, and i'm sure an argument could be made for Durant being a top 5 although I don't believe he is.

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Melo
Dwight
Paul

are all better than Durant is.


Edit: meant to say LeBron is a better player than Kobe is not Durant, although that is true as well.

[CeoTypeDoe619]

You are a dumb @$$.

LeBron and Durant are better than Kobe this season. Kobe is currently ranked 4th in the NBA MVP Race.
Yeah and you just said durant is better then kobe

slap yaself then ya moms

[Lebron23]

Yeah and you just said durant is better then kobe

slap yaself then ya moms

Of course I'd still take Kobe Bryant over Kevin Durant in the playoffs, but Durant is playing better than Kobe in the Regular Season.


MVP does not = better than. But I agree LeBron is a better player than Durant, and i'm sure an argument could be made for Durant being a top 5 although I don't believe he is.

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Melo
Dwight
Paul

are all better than Durant is.

Fair Enough

[CeoTypeDoe619]

Of course I'd still take Kobe Bryant over Kevin Durant in the playoffs, but Durant is playing better than Kobe in the Regular Season.



Fair Enough
Cuz he's scoring more points? Kobe averages double his assist. More steals and less turnovers. And has been a way better defender then durant. Brah with those 26,000 post i would think you knew a little about basketball

[Lebron23]

Cuz he's scoring more points? Kobe averages double his assist. More steals and less turnovers. And has been a way better defender then durant. Brah with those 26,000 post i would think you knew a little about basketball

Shutup Can'tstop. I'm just messing with you.


:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

[CeoTypeDoe619]

Shutup Can'tstop. I'm just messing with you.


:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

Haha cant wait till i get to meet this Cantstop guy who is supposedly shares the same views i do. He's going straight to my Fav 5:oldlol:

[SCdac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffp-vt86NU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtauDQ4-mCY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDkOei5HWnQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbsznAr8pfU&feature=related

Duncan dropping 37 points, 16 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 blocks to eliminate the defending champion 2002 Lakers on their own court. Timmy posting up and getting layups, dunks, turnaround jump shots, taking Horry off the dribble at the top of the key, hitting a 17 foot face up jump shot, grabbing offensive boards and converting, dishing out of the post, and hitting 5 of 7 free throws... He wasn't JUST a defensive player, the offense went through him, Walton called him "virtually unstoppable with his variety of his moves".

[momo]

If the OP is serious and not a gimmick, then I question what this site is coming to. This thread should be closed and deleted immediately.

I would tend to agree but I actually think this thread should be sticky because;


Its like you're some horrifying fusion of Charles Barkley and Marv Albert.

That is priceless :D

[GOBB]

I agree with the premise, but I would like to point out that LeBrons defensive impact is also a game changer.

Tim Duncan anchored the defense of the Spurs for years. There were consistently one of the best defensive teams because of him. He protected the paint and allowed guys like Bruce Bowen to play agressively on the perimeter. I like how none of that means zero to you but you get goose bumps because Bron anticipates a player driving and blocks his shot from behind. You obviously never watched nor paid much attention to Tim Duncan. He's the best player of the decade but not better than Lebron. Makes zero sense. Duncan is regarded as a player who can be considered top 10 of all time. Somehow Bron is a top 10 player of all time already. And the fact you've all but given Bron an MVP before he even won it just tells me your agenda.

[Killuminati90]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffp-vt86NU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtauDQ4-mCY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDkOei5HWnQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbsznAr8pfU&feature=related

Duncan dropping 37 points, 16 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 blocks to eliminate the defending champion 2002 Lakers on their own court. Timmy posting up and getting layups, dunks, turnaround jump shots, taking Horry off the dribble at the top of the key, hitting a 17 foot face up jump shot, grabbing offensive boards and converting, dishing out of the post, and hitting 5 of 7 free throws... He wasn't JUST a defensive player, the offense went through him, Walton called him "virtually unstoppable with his variety of his moves".

2001-2005 was Prime Duncan and was perhaps better than current Lebron James. At least equal. People tend to forget to quick, same thing happened with Iverson (although he has earned it in some way acting like a canswer in the last years).

Yet again I repeat what I said in my earlier post, a couple of pages before, if I had to pick one of this 2 to start my franchise, I would pick Timmy all the day.

[jlauber]

He's the most dominant player of all time in any sport. No one else comes close.

Yep...there is a mountain of evidence which supports that Lebron is the most dominant player of all-time, and no else comes close.

Somehow, though, it got lost in reality.

[catch24]

Right NOW, he's playing better than any version of Tim Duncan (02 is debatable but I'd still pick Lebron). Defense, scoring, rebounding, passing, all while being the anchor of his team. That's "GOAT level" like.

[Burgz]

i had to click on this thread to see if it was for real

sadly, it is

the average NBA fan has already forgotten the monster that was prime duncan

[catch24]

i had to click on this thread to see if it was for real

sadly, it is

the average NBA fan has already forgotten the monster that was prime duncan

I hear you, but Lebron is averaging 30ppg on 50% (not done since Michael Jordan in 1992), 7 rebounds, 8 assists, 1.7 steals, and 1 block. He's effecting the game in more ways than Tim Duncan ever did in his prime IMO. I respect TD for sure, top 10 of all time, but this season has been ridiculous for LBJ.