Michael Jordan taught Scottie Pippen how to play like him

[bruceblitz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJBc3GYzAPs
Watch the video before you comment, it's real short, and it's Phil Jackson/Scottie Pippen talking.

I don't think that people understand how great players like Glen Rice, Dale Ellis and Dominique Wilkins were, they didn't have a teammate like Michael Jordan there to show them the "ropes" in practice. I personally am a Chicago Bulls fan and I truly enjoyed the Scottie Pippen & Michael Jordan combination. I just think people forget that Scottie Pippen was not a natural superstar, Jordan helped Pippen elevate his game to the level it became. If Scottie Pippen didn't have Jordan there to teach him, I suspect that he wouldn't even be considered to be on a Dominique Wilkins type level.

Also of note is the fact that Pippen was talented enough to apply what Jordan taught him, but I think it goes understated how it important it was for Michael Jordan to help Scottie Pippen bring his game up to a superstar level.

[chitownsfinest]

:hammerhead: Posts like this is what make people against Jordan. Pip had great athletic abilities and had strong defensive instincts from day one. While I agree Jordan did help him in regards to his toughness and offensive game, Pip would have been an all-star player during his career regardless of Jordan.

Stop acting as if the 90s Bulls dynasty was all about Jordan. You, as a fellow Chicagoan, should know better.

[KobeRules24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJBc3GYzAPs
Watch the video before you comment, it's real short, and it's Phil Jackson/Scottie Pippen talking.

I don't think that people understand how great players like Glen Rice, Dale Ellis and Dominique Wilkins were, they didn't have a teammate like Michael Jordan there to show them the "ropes" in practice. I personally am a Chicago Bulls fan and I truly enjoyed the Scottie Pippen & Michael Jordan combination. I just think people forget that Scottie Pippen was not a natural superstar, Jordan helped Pippen elevate his game to the level it became. If Scottie Pippen didn't have Jordan there to teach him, I suspect that he wouldn't even be considered to be on a Dominique Wilkins type level.

Also of note is the fact that Pippen was talented enough to apply what Jordan taught him, but I think it goes understated how it important it was for Michael Jordan to help Scottie Pippen bring his game up to a superstar level.

interesting theory but you're still trying to diminish pippen's impact in the 6 championship teams. fact is pippen during his prime was one of the best all around players this league has ever seen. offense, defense, intangibles, versatile....cant say the same about guys like wilkins

[bruceblitz]

:hammerhead: Posts like this is what make people against Jordan. Pip had great athletic abilities and had strong defensive instincts from day one. While I agree Jordan did help him in regards to his toughness and offensive game, Pip would have been an all-star player during his career regardless of Jordan.

Stop acting as if the 90s Bulls dynasty was all about Jordan. You, as a fellow Chicagoan, should know better.

When Scottie Pippen came into the league he was skinny, his strength wasn't all that great, his footspeed was not up to par on defense, he didn't start shooting the ball that well until the 90-91 season, he played like garbage his first two years in the playoffs, was inconsistent, and the best parts of his skill-set were clearly skills that Jordan influenced.

Just watch the video and listen to coach Jackson talk about how Jordan's influence was obvious FROM DAY ONE.

[bruceblitz]

interesting theory but you're still trying to diminish pippen's impact in the 6 championship teams. fact is pippen during his prime was one of the best all around players this league has ever seen. offense, defense, intangibles, versatile....cant say the same about guys like wilkins
If Dominique Wilkins was able to practice with a Michael Jordan every day, who knows how much different his game would have been. I give Pippen credit for having the raw talent to apply what Jordan had taught him, which puts him in the upper rankings of perimeter players from that era, that being said, Jordan's influences on his game were so evident.

[daily]

bruceblitz should start a Blog, turn off responses and talk to himself all day. He clearly just wants to yak away and have everyone buy what he's selling without any discussion.

[bruceblitz]

bruceblitz should start a Blog, turn off responses and talk to himself all day. He clearly just wants to yak away and have everyone buy what he's selling without any discussion.
Not true, this post is an obvious fact. I'm not selling anything, just presenting a fact.

[daily]

Not true, this post is an obvious fact. I'm not selling anything, just presenting a fact.Ladies and Gentlemen, the prosecution rests.

Try this BB boy.

https://www.blogger.com/start

[KobeRules24]

Not true, this post is an obvious fact. I'm not selling anything, just presenting a fact.

if you think Jordan won the 6 titles by himself...well that's your opinion but i just don't see the need to diminish Pippen so much. Even if he learned from Jordan it's clear that the Bulls don't win a title without his production.

[bruceblitz]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the prosecution rests.

Try this BB boy.

https://www.blogger.com/start
This is just the tip of the iceberg, I'm gonna be throwing some gas on the fire real soon..... stay tuned.....

[bruceblitz]

if you think Jordan won the 6 titles by himself...well that's your opinion but i just don't see the need to diminish Pippen so much. Even if he learned from Jordan it's clear that the Bulls don't win a title without his production.
The fact of the matter is that if Jordan was a selfish introvert he would have never taken so much time to show Pippen the ropes, and Pippen's defense would have never become so good if he wasn't defending the greatest of all time in practice every day. Pippen was Jordan's student so I would like someone to show me another championship leader who had that much influence on their sidekick.

[Roundball_Rock]

Scottie Pippen taught Michael Jordan how to win.

Pippen without Jordan: 20 playoff wins (7 seasons)
Jordan without Pippen: 1 playoff win (5 seasons)

:roll:

[bruceblitz]

Scottie Pippen taught Michael Jordan how to win.

Pippen without Jordan: 20 playoff wins (7 seasons)
Jordan without Pippen: 1 playoff win (5 seasons)

:roll:
Oh Kobe apostle, you are poking the lion right now.... I'm gonna post Jordan's production during those "losses" that you like to talk about and blame Jordan for....

By the way, 20 playoff wins, Jordan's student learned well.

[KobeRules24]

Scottie Pippen taught Michael Jordan how to win.

Pippen without Jordan: 20 playoff wins (7 seasons)
Jordan without Pippen: 1 playoff win (5 seasons)

:roll:

lol that's funny but totally untrue.

[KobeRules24]

Oh Kobe apostle, you are poking the lion right now.... I'm gonna post Jordan's production during those "losses" that you like to talk about and blame Jordan for....

By the way, 20 playoff wins, Jordan's student learned well.

he's a pippen apostle

[Roundball_Rock]

lol that's funny but totally untrue.

Fact: Jordan won 1 playoff game without Pippen
Fact: Pippen won 20 playoff games without Jordan


I'm gonna post Jordan's production during those "losses" that you like to talk about and blame Jordan for....

Jacking up 40 shots a game does not lead to a lot of wins. How did your new hero Lebron do this year despite scoring 35-40 points in almost every game?

[bruceblitz]

he's a pippen apostle
Sorry KobeNPau, but there have been too many Kobe apostles taking personal shots at me, and yadda yadda yadda about Jordan trying to diminish him, so I am left with no choice but to fight fire with fire.

[juju151111]

Fact: Jordan won 1 playoff game without Pippen
Fact: Pippen won 20 playoff games without Jordan



Jacking up 40 shots a game does not lead to a lot of wins. How did your new hero Lebron do this year despite scoring 35-40 points in almost every game?
SO wat ur saying to me is scottie would of gotten wins vs the celtics with MJ 86/87 team right.

[daily]

This is just the tip of the iceberg, I'm gonna be throwing some gas on the fire real soon..... stay tuned.....I would if you were to say something original. But since you just cut and paste past discussions of events that took place nearly 20 years ago and have been discussed ad nauseum I'll give this round a pass.

[KobeRules24]

Sorry KobeNPau, but there have been too many Kobe apostles taking personal shots at me, and yadda yadda yadda about Jordan trying to diminish him, so I am left with no choice but to fight fire with fire.

i get ur point

[bruceblitz]

i get ur point
I don't think they remember how I did things in the past.

[Roundball_Rock]

SO wat ur saying to me is scottie would of gotten wins vs the celtics with MJ 86/87 team right.

What I am saying is simply the facts.

Pippen without Jordan: 20 playoff wins
Jordan without Pippen: 1 playoff wins

The "clear GOAT" got swept twice in the first round? :confusedshrug:

[KobeRules24]

Fact: Jordan won 1 playoff game without Pippen
Fact: Pippen won 20 playoff games without Jordan



Jacking up 40 shots a game does not lead to a lot of wins. How did your new hero Lebron do this year despite scoring 35-40 points in almost every game?

Jordan had no help during his first years in the league so he needed to jack up 40 shots a game to give his team a chance to win. Jordan was shooting a great percentage as well, as you fail to mention. fact is Pippen didn't win a title without Jordan so i don't know how you can argue he was a better ''winner''.

[D-Rose]

Let's all chill out for 24 seconds and watch this

*breathe in*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0f1EsUVCIU

*breathe out*

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan had no help during his first years in the league so he needed to jack up 40 shots a game to give his team a chance to win. Jordan was shooting a great percentage as well, as you fail to mention.

Fair enough. Let's look at the impact other great players have had on the W-L column.

Michael Jordan: +11 (27 to 38, went from missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Magic Johnson: +13 (47 to 60, went from second round losers to NBA champs)
Kareem: +29 (27 to 56, went from missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Bird: +32 (went from 29 to 61, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Wilt: +17 (32 wins to 49, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Russell: +5 (39 wins to 44, losing to the first round to NBA champs)
Oscar: +16 (17 wins to 33)
Hakeem: +19 (29 to 48, missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Shaq: +20 (21 wins to 41)
D. Robinson: +35 (21 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Duncan: +36 (20 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Lebron: +18 (17 wins to 35)

Jordan had the least impact on the W-L column of any of these players. A similar thing could be found if you look at these players' teams the year after they left. For instance, the big drop off the Spurs had the year before Duncan being drafted was due to Robinson being injured for almost the entire season.

The "clear GOAT" could only improve a team 11 games and then do nothing in the playoffs? :confusedshrug:


fact is Pippen didn't win a title without Jordan so i don't know how you can argue he was a better ''winner''.

20 playoff wins>1 playoff win, no?

[bruceblitz]

Let's look at the 85 playoffs, Jordan was a rookie, and the Bulls lost to the Bucks in the first round 3-1:

Remember, "they" keep blaming Jordan, who according to them didn't "share" the ball:

Jordan in 85 playoffs: 29.3ppg 5.8reb 8.5ast 44%fg (rookie)
Bulls lost to the Bucks in the playoffs, Bulls had won 27 games the year before which jumped up to 38 wins with the addition of Jordan...
Jordan's supporting cast in the 85 playoffs:
Woolridge 20ppg 3.3reb 2.0ast 50%fg (Jordan set up Woolridge for a lot of good looks, he trusted Orlando)
Quinton Dailey 15ppg 3.3reb 2.8ast 42%fg
Steve Johnson 2.0ppg 1.7reb .7ast 28%fg
Dave Corzine 8.3ppg 5.5reb .8ast 66%fg

8.5 assists per game as a damn rookie, what a ball-hog!

[KobeRules24]

I don't think they remember how I did things in the past.

:oldlol: i think they don't

[bruceblitz]

Fair enough. Let's look at the impact other great players have had on the W-L column.

Michael Jordan: +11 (27 to 38, went from missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Magic Johnson: +13 (47 to 60, went from second round losers to NBA champs)
Kareem: +29 (27 to 56, went from missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Bird: +32 (went from 29 to 61, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Wilt: +17 (32 wins to 49, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Russell: +5 (39 wins to 44, losing to the first round to NBA champs)
Oscar: +16 (17 wins to 33)
Hakeem: +19 (29 to 48, missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Shaq: +20 (21 wins to 41)
D. Robinson: +35 (21 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Duncan: +36 (20 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Lebron: +18 (17 wins to 35)

Jordan had the least impact on the W-L column of any of these players. A similar thing could be found if you look at these players' teams the year after they left. For instance, the big drop off the Spurs had the year before Duncan being drafted was due to Robinson being injured for almost the entire season.

The "clear GOAT" could only improve a team 11 games and then do nothing in the playoffs? :confusedshrug:



20 playoff wins>1 playoff win, no?

So in 2003-2004 the Lakers won 56 games
Shaq leaves L.A. and Kobe leads the Lakers to 34 wins the following year...

Why do you leave that out agenda boy?

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's look at the 85 playoffs, Jordan was a rookie, and the Bulls lost to the Bucks in the first round 3-1:


Cherry pick the year he shot the least. :oldlol: He averaged 20 FGA that year in the playoffs but a whopping 32 and 28 FGA in the process of getting swept in the first round 1986 and 1987.

AI averaged a fair amount of assists too--that is easy to do when you have the ball 99% of the time.

[juju151111]

What I am saying is simply the facts.

Pippen without Jordan: 20 playoff wins
Jordan without Pippen: 1 playoff wins

The "clear GOAT" got swept twice in the first round? :confusedshrug:
no i am asking u a question. You place pip on bulls 86/87 team that means Pip would of won because Pip=Greater winner then MJ. IMO that means Pip>MJ

[Allstar24]

Wow :oldlol:

[Bush4Ever]

Cherry pick the year he shot the least. :oldlol: He averaged 20 FGA that year in the playoffs but a whopping 32 and 28 FGA in the process of getting swept in the first round 1986 and 1987.

AI averaged a fair amount of assists too--that is easy to do when you have the ball 99% of the time.


Yeah, against the best team ever (with the best defense that year) with basically no support. Big whoop.

And really, when one is putting up 44 a game, getting to the line at will, shooting 50+ percent from the floor, and playing on a team with minimal offensive talent....why would you not shoot a lot?

I've seen those games. Jordan shooting 30+ times a game was in the best interest of his team at the time.

Oddly enough he still tacked on 6+ assists per game.

[bruceblitz]

Let's look at the 85 playoffs, Jordan was a rookie, and the Bulls lost to the Bucks in the first round 3-1:

Remember, "they" keep blaming Jordan, who according to them didn't "share" the ball:

Jordan in 85 playoffs: 29.3ppg 5.8reb 8.5ast 44%fg (rookie)
Bulls lost to the Bucks in the playoffs, Bulls had won 27 games the year before which jumped up to 38 wins with the addition of Jordan...
Jordan's supporting cast in the 85 playoffs:
Woolridge 20ppg 3.3reb 2.0ast 50%fg (Jordan set up Woolridge for a lot of good looks, he trusted Orlando)
Quinton Dailey 15ppg 3.3reb 2.8ast 42%fg
Steve Johnson 2.0ppg 1.7reb .7ast 28%fg
Dave Corzine 8.3ppg 5.5reb .8ast 66%fg

8.5 assists per game as a damn rookie, what a ball-hog!


Let's look at the 86 playoffs, Jordan and the Bulls lost to the team that went on to win the World Championship, the Boston Celtics 3-0

Jordan in 86 playoffs: 43.7ppg 6.3reb 5.7ast 50.5%fg
Jordan's supporting cast in the 86 playoffs:
Orlando Woolridge 21ppg 4.7reb 1.3ast 40%fg
George Gervin 0ppg .5reb .5ast 0%fg (was injured, Gervin started 75 games that year, so did the loss of Gervin have somewhat of an impact on the Bulls losing to the Celtics? That's Jordan's fault too I'm sure)
Sidney Green 6.0ppg 4.0reb 0.0ast 30%fg
Gene Banks 7.3ppg 3.3reb 1.7ast 55%fg
Charles Oakley 10.0ppg 10.0reb 1.0ast 52%fg
(this is the team you expected Jordan to lead over the World Champion Boston Celtics #1 rated defense? Crazy people!)

hmmmm

[KobeRules24]

Fair enough. Let's look at the impact other great players have had on the W-L column.

Michael Jordan: +11 (27 to 38, went from missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Magic Johnson: +13 (47 to 60, went from second round losers to NBA champs)
Kareem: +29 (27 to 56, went from missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Bird: +32 (went from 29 to 61, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Wilt: +17 (32 wins to 49, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Russell: +5 (39 wins to 44, losing to the first round to NBA champs)
Oscar: +16 (17 wins to 33)
Hakeem: +19 (29 to 48, missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Shaq: +20 (21 wins to 41)
D. Robinson: +35 (21 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Duncan: +36 (20 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Lebron: +18 (17 wins to 35)

Jordan had the least impact on the W-L column of any of these players. A similar thing could be found if you look at these players' teams the year after they left. For instance, the big drop off the Spurs had the year before Duncan being drafted was due to Robinson being injured for almost the entire season.

The "clear GOAT" could only improve a team 11 games and then do nothing in the playoffs? :confusedshrug:



20 playoff wins>1 playoff win, no?

:oldlol: that's easy to do when you play with great teams.rockets were contenders but never won sh!t, blazers were contenders and didn't do sh!t...pippen was not a great leader, maybe a great player but not a great leader.

[andgar923]

:hammerhead: Posts like this is what make people against Jordan. Pip had great athletic abilities and had strong defensive instincts from day one. While I agree Jordan did help him in regards to his toughness and offensive game, Pip would have been an all-star player during his career regardless of Jordan.

Stop acting as if the 90s Bulls dynasty was all about Jordan. You, as a fellow Chicagoan, should know better.

Dude.... Pip wasn't mentally strong.

He showed promise from time to time, but he wasn't prepared yet.

Sure the same can be said about any young player, but MJ helped what could've been a solid defender, to who some consider the GOAT perimeter defender.

Don't you think playing against MJ in practice makes him better?

But MJ's impact wasn't solely on defense.

He helped his overall game but more importantly, the mental aspects of the game.

And as we've all seen, that may be as important if not more than skill (of course it varies depending on skill level).

He showed him discipline, and having a professional approach to the game. Showed him how to not settle with just being good, but great, not just great but legendary.

He took him under his wing and that's why MJ often refers to him as "my little brother."

[tastystaci]

Fact: Jordan won 1 playoff game without Pippen
Fact: Pippen won 20 playoff games without Jordan

Jacking up 40 shots a game does not lead to a lot of wins. How did your new hero Lebron do this year despite scoring 35-40 points in almost every game?

/thread. Complete pawnage IMO

[Bush4Ever]

/thread. Complete pawnage IMO

Yes, because the level of talent on Pippen's team, Pippen's role, and the level of talent FACED in the playoffs is directly comparable to MJ's.

Oh wait...they aren't even close.

I also like how the anti-MJ forces like to say "without Pippen" so they can exclude the 1988 and 1989 seasons, despite minimal influence by Pippen.

Lame.

[bruceblitz]

Let's look at the 85 playoffs, Jordan was a rookie, and the Bulls lost to the Bucks in the first round 3-1:

Remember, "they" keep blaming Jordan, who according to them didn't "share" the ball:

Jordan in 85 playoffs: 29.3ppg 5.8reb 8.5ast 44%fg (rookie)
Bulls lost to the Bucks in the playoffs, Bulls had won 27 games the year before which jumped up to 38 wins with the addition of Jordan...
Jordan's supporting cast in the 85 playoffs:
Woolridge 20ppg 3.3reb 2.0ast 50%fg (Jordan set up Woolridge for a lot of good looks, he trusted Orlando)
Quinton Dailey 15ppg 3.3reb 2.8ast 42%fg
Steve Johnson 2.0ppg 1.7reb .7ast 28%fg
Dave Corzine 8.3ppg 5.5reb .8ast 66%fg

8.5 assists per game as a damn rookie, what a ball-hog!


Let's look at the 86 playoffs, Jordan and the Bulls lost to the team that went on to win the World Championship, the Boston Celtics 3-0

Jordan in 86 playoffs: 43.7ppg 6.3reb 5.7ast 50.5%fg
Jordan's supporting cast in the 86 playoffs:
Orlando Woolridge 21ppg 4.7reb 1.3ast 40%fg
George Gervin 0ppg .5reb .5ast 0%fg (was injured, Gervin started 75 games that year, so did the loss of Gervin have somewhat of an impact on the Bulls losing to the Celtics? That's Jordan's fault too I'm sure)
Sidney Green 6.0ppg 4.0reb 0.0ast 30%fg
Gene Banks 7.3ppg 3.3reb 1.7ast 55%fg
Charles Oakley 10.0ppg 10.0reb 1.0ast 52%fg
(this is the team you expected Jordan to lead over the World Champion Boston Celtics #1 rated defense? Crazy people!)

Let's look at the 87 playoffs, Jordan and the Bulls lost to the Celtics again 3-0

Jordan in 87 playoffs: 35.7ppg 7.0reb 6.0ast 42%fg
Jordan's supporting cast in the 87 playoffs:
Charles Oakley 20.0ppg 15.3reb 2.0ast 38%fg
John Paxson 8.7ppg 1.0reb 3.7ast 50%fg
Dave Corzine 9.0ppg 7.0reb 2.3ast 45%fg
Brad Sellers 5.0ppg 2.3reb 1.0ast 31%fg
What a supporting cast! How in the hell did Jordan get swept by one of the best defenses in the NBA who ran double and triple teams at him? How in the hell did Jordan's "great" team lose that series to the reigning world champs?

[Luigi]

:hammerhead: Posts like this is what make people against Jordan. Pip had great athletic abilities and had strong defensive instincts from day one. While I agree Jordan did help him in regards to his toughness and offensive game, Pip would have been an all-star player during his career regardless of Jordan.

Stop acting as if the 90s Bulls dynasty was all about Jordan. You, as a fellow Chicagoan, should know better.

Yup. I can't stand the Jordan is Deity complex. Makes no sense. Every possible scenario is always explained by Jordan's unmeasurable greatness. Nothing could every make Jordan better...if it was good, it had to have come from Jordan and rubbed off on the crap surrounding him. Right?

[bruceblitz]

You getting this guys? I'm exploding their dumb argument right in their faces.... keep watching....

I'm gonna go grab a couple of Chicago style hotdogs, I'll be back in a few...

[bruceblitz]

So in 2003-2004 the Lakers won 56 games
Shaq leaves L.A. and Kobe leads the Lakers to 34 wins the following year...

Why do you leave that out agenda boy?
Also notice how agenda boy has no response to this one^^^

I'll brb...

[juju151111]

Fair enough. Let's look at the impact other great players have had on the W-L column.

Michael Jordan: +11 (27 to 38, went from missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Magic Johnson: +13 (47 to 60, went from second round losers to NBA champs)
Kareem: +29 (27 to 56, went from missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Bird: +32 (went from 29 to 61, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Wilt: +17 (32 wins to 49, missing the playoffs to the conference finals)
Russell: +5 (39 wins to 44, losing to the first round to NBA champs)
Oscar: +16 (17 wins to 33)
Hakeem: +19 (29 to 48, missing the playoffs to losing in the first round)
Shaq: +20 (21 wins to 41)
D. Robinson: +35 (21 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Duncan: +36 (20 wins to 56, missing the playoffs to the WCSF)
Lebron: +18 (17 wins to 35)

Jordan had the least impact on the W-L column of any of these players. A similar thing could be found if you look at these players' teams the year after they left. For instance, the big drop off the Spurs had the year before Duncan being drafted was due to Robinson being injured for almost the entire season.

The "clear GOAT" could only improve a team 11 games and then do nothing in the playoffs? :confusedshrug:



20 playoff wins>1 playoff win, no?
hmm Mj ranked 11th all-time now huh? Good work man:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Why was MJ's team playing the #1 seed in the first round anyway? Why didn't MJ elevate his team like all the other all-time greats I mentioned did? If MJ could do that he wouldn't have to face Bird/McHale/Parish in the first round.


pippen was not a great leader, maybe a great player but not a great leader.

Look at the W-L record of his teams with him and without him.

1993-94 Bulls: 4-6 without him, 51-21 with him
Over 82 games: on pace for 33 wins without him, 58 wins (#1 seed) with him
Impact: +25

1997-98 Bulls: 24-11 without him, 38-9 with him
Over 82 games: on pace for 56 wins without him (#3 seed), 66 wins (best record in the league) with him
Impact: +10

56 wins would have met that game 7 of the ECF, which the Bulls squeaked by in, would have been played in Indiana and not Chicago...

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him, 35-25 with him
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him, 39-21 with him
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-12 without him, 38-20 with him
Over 82 games: 41 wins without him (#10 in the West), 54 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

Notice a trend?

[bruceblitz]

Team record in games missed

Michael Jordan, Bulls years: 19-49 (.279)

86: 18-43

89: 0-1

92: 0-2

93: 1-3

Even the world champion Bulls suffered 1-5 without their undisputed leader.

Notice a trend?

Record as team leader
Michael Air Jordan: 640-290 (.688)

brb

[Roundball_Rock]

Yup. I can't stand the Jordan is Deity complex. Makes no sense. Every possible scenario is always explained by Jordan's unmeasurable greatness. Nothing could every make Jordan better...if it was good, it had to have come from Jordan and rubbed off on the crap surrounding him. Right?

:applause:


So in 2003-2004 the Lakers won 56 games
Shaq leaves L.A. and Kobe leads the Lakers to 34 wins the following year...

Why do you leave that out agenda boy?

Shaq is top 10 all-time. What is your point? If you look at all the top 10 players their teams almost always do a lot worse when they leave. The big exceptions are Kareem leaving the Bucks...and...M...Jayyyyy....


hmm Mj ranked 11th all-time now huh?

That is a list of selected players. MJ improved his team by 11 games. That is not the 11th best improvement. It may not even be among the top 50 all-time.

MJ all-time? GOAT--but his greatness was more individual in nature than in the Magic Johnson sense of improving those around you. Magic's team went from losing in the second round to the NBA finals with him. When he retired they went from 58 wins and the NBA finals to 43 wins and losing in the first round.

[daily]

Also notice how agenda boy has no response to this one^^^

I'll brb...Bad seasons happen. Kobe was injured, Lamar was injured, Brian Grant was injured the Coach fell off the wagon, Brian Cook played too many games.
Get over it, Laker fans have.

[chitownsfinest]

Dude.... Pip wasn't mentally strong.

He showed promise from time to time, but he wasn't prepared yet.

Sure the same can be said about any young player, but MJ helped what could've been a solid defender, to who some consider the GOAT perimeter defender.

Don't you think playing against MJ in practice makes him better?

But MJ's impact wasn't solely on defense.

He helped his overall game but more importantly, the mental aspects of the game.

And as we've all seen, that may be as important if not more than skill (of course it varies depending on skill level).

He showed him discipline, and having a professional approach to the game. Showed him how to not settle with just being good, but great, not just great but legendary.

He took him under his wing and that's why MJ often refers to him as "my little brother."

Yeah man I stated in my original post that you responded to that Jordan's did help increase Pip's toughness. Him going at Pip constantly in practices and challenging Pip in games made Pip more mentally tough . I was merely stating, however, that Jordan is not fully responsible for Pip becoming a great player and that Pip had b-ball skills/strong athleticism from day 1. He would have become a really strong player non-the-less.

[Roundball_Rock]

The irony is lost on Blitz. Shaq leaves and his team regresses by 22 games; the "clear GOAT" retires and his team regresses by 2 games?


Him going at Pip constantly in practices and challenging Pip in games made Pip more mentally tough

So did punching Steve Kerr in practice. I don't see Kerr heading to the HOF.

Pippen was a top 5 draft pick out of a small school. That does not happen unless you have a lot of talent. The myth makers act as if he was the last pick in the second round.

[Bush4Ever]

Why was MJ's team playing the #1 seed in the first round anyway? Why didn't MJ elevate his team like all the other all-time greats I mentioned did? If MJ could do that he wouldn't have to face Bird/McHale/Parish in the first round.

Simple.

Because the talent on the early bulls team relative to the league was extremely low.

You cited Larry Bird's turnaround in a previous post. However, Bird wasn't the only cause.

1. They got rid of malcontent Bob Macadoo.
2. They picked up a real coach in Bill Fitch, which ushered in a whole new attitude (if you don't know the Sidney Wicks story, it's a good one...google it)
3. They picked up a real coach, which allowed Dave Cowens to get back to full time playing duties
4. They picked up ML Carr, who at the time was an extremely good defensive player (led the league in steals).
5. They had a newly healthy Nate Archibald, who played a good chunk of the 1979 year injured.

There are more things going on than simply adding a player (usually).



By the way, in 1986 MJ only played like 20 games.

[Bush4Ever]

The irony is lost on Blitz. Shaq leaves and his team regresses by 22 games; the "clear GOAT" retires and his team regresses by 2 games?

And 3 playoff series. :no:

It is a noted fact that the Bulls coasted through the 1993 regular season in an effort to save energy for the playoffs (they didn't have HCA in the Finals), and the 1994 Bulls were extra motivated to win games to show "they could do it without MJ".

[juju151111]

:applause:



Shaq is top 10 all-time. What is your point? If you look at all the top 10 players their teams almost always do a lot worse when they leave. The big exceptions are Kareem leaving the Bucks...and...M...Jayyyyy....



That is a list of selected players. MJ improved his team by 11 games. That is not the 11th best improvement. It may not even be among the top 50 all-time.

MJ all-time? GOAT--but his greatness was more individual in nature than in the Magic Johnson sense of improving those around you. Magic's team went from losing in the second round to the NBA finals with him. When he retired they went from 58 wins and the NBA finals to 43 wins and losing in the first round.
??? I thought Magic was on a team with Kareem which dropped 30 almost every gm in that playoffs.Also don't forget kareem was taking large ****s on the 76ers until the last gm he was injured. Mj came in playing with a HOF top 10 player of all-time??? Magic did

Why do you guys never compare the 94 bulls to the 92 bulls?? You know the bulls when Mj wasn't nursing a injured wrist and bth there star players came from playing in the summer for the first time in how many years. oh yea you have a agenda. What happen to this so called better winner then MJ(PIp) in the 90 ECF??1-10:( What happen in 92 when xman pushed him around in his 5th year?/ oh right it doesn't matter because he was playing with Mj He new M would carry the team, but wait Mj can't carry anyone to playoffs wins. I am so confused here.Put a 7th year Mj on 94 bulls they win more gms.

[Da_Realist]

Yeah, against the best team ever (with the best defense that year) with basically no support. Big whoop.

And really, when one is putting up 44 a game, getting to the line at will, shooting 50+ percent from the floor, and playing on a team with minimal offensive talent....why would you not shoot a lot?

I've seen those games. Jordan shooting 30+ times a game was in the best interest of his team at the time.

Oddly enough he still tacked on 6+ assists per game.


Yes, because the level of talent on Pippen's team, Pippen's role, and the level of talent FACED in the playoffs is directly comparable to MJ's.

Oh wait...they aren't even close.

I also like how the anti-MJ forces like to say "without Pippen" so they can exclude the 1988 and 1989 seasons, despite minimal influence by Pippen.

Lame.


Simple.

Because the talent on the early bulls team relative to the league was extremely low.

You cited Larry Bird's turnaround in a previous post. However, Bird wasn't the only cause.

1. They got rid of malcontent Bob Macadoo.
2. They picked up a real coach in Bill Fitch, which ushered in a whole new attitude (if you don't know the Sidney Wicks story, it's a good one...google it)
3. They picked up a real coach, which allowed Dave Cowens to get back to full time playing duties
4. They picked up ML Carr, who at the time was an extremely good defensive player (led the league in steals).
5. They had a newly healthy Nate Archibald, who played a good chunk of the 1979 year injured.

There are more things going on than simply adding a player (usually).



By the way, in 1986 MJ only played like 20 games.


And 3 playoff series. :no:

It is a noted fact that the Bulls coasted through the 1993 regular season in an effort to save energy for the playoffs (they didn't have HCA in the Finals), and the 1994 Bulls were extra motivated to win games to show "they could do it without MJ".

Just stop... You're making too much sense. It's obvious that people are tired of talking about MJ and want to pull out anything they can find to discredit him. You're not helping the cause.

Just let them state their facts, dismiss the context and change people's opinions. :pimp:

[juju151111]

The irony is lost on Blitz. Shaq leaves and his team regresses by 22 games; the "clear GOAT" retires and his team regresses by 2 games?



So did punching Steve Kerr in practice. I don't see Kerr heading to the HOF.

Pippen was a top 5 draft pick out of a small school. That does not happen unless you have a lot of talent. The myth makers act as if he was the last pick in the second round.
Pip had the potential you idiot. Mj helped him improved which you could clearly see when he did his fakes and other moves. Nobody is saying MJ Made pippen everything he is, but he helped him progress and max out his potential.

[Roundball_Rock]

Because the talent on the early bulls team relative to the league was extremely low.

You cited Larry Bird's turnaround in a previous post. However, Bird wasn't the only cause.

Sure but look at the list. MJ added the least to his team of all those players. How can this be? You are telling me the "clear GOAT" is only worth 11 more wins over 82 games?

Here are some more impacts by players.

Grant Hill: +8 (similar to MJ's...he missed 12 games btw)
Dominique: +1
Drexler: +2
Barkley: +6
Iverson: +4
K. Malone: +1

So MJ had roughly as much or slightly more impact than these lower tier players. However, his first year impact pales compared to that of the all-time top 10 level players (Lebron isn't in that group at this point but his first year impact matched the impact of others in that group).

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

poor Pippen.
you would think that MJ played defense FOR Pippen.
you would think that MJ shot Pippen's 3s FOR him.

please, for the love of God, give Pippen his due props as one of the greatest SFs of all time.

[Roundball_Rock]

And 3 playoff series. :no:

It is a noted fact that the Bulls coasted through the 1993 regular season in an effort to save energy for the playoffs (they didn't have HCA in the Finals), and the 1994 Bulls were extra motivated to win games to show "they could do it without MJ".

Coasted their way to giving the Knicks home court by three games?

Why cherry pick the 92' Bulls? The 92' Bulls were the same group as the 91' Bulls. They won 61 games in 1991, 67 in 1992, 57 in 1993, and 55 in 1994. So the 1994 Bulls won six less games than the 1991 Bulls and that was with their best player out for ten games. With him they were on pace for 58 wins and the #1 seed over 82 games--which would have put game 7 of the ECSF in Chicago, not New York and would have rendered Hue Hollin's horrendous call a mere footnote.


ou know the bulls when Mj wasn't nursing a injured wrist and bth there star players came from playing in the summer for the first time in how many years.

Kobe and Gasol played in the finals and the Olympics last summer. Their team improved by 8 games. Lame excuse!


but he helped him progress and max out his potential

Neato! Jordan's Bobcats can't even make the playoffs in the pathetic Eastern conference. Why doesn't MJ step down from his office, go to the gym with his players and make them great? He played with a grand total of one all-star in his entire career...

[bruceblitz]

Sure but look at the list. MJ added the least to his team of all those players. How can this be? You are telling me the "clear GOAT" is only worth 11 more wins over 82 games?

Here are some more impacts by players.

Grant Hill: +8 (similar to MJ's...he missed 12 games btw)
Dominique: +1
Drexler: +2
Barkley: +6
Iverson: +4
K. Malone: +1

So MJ had roughly as much or slightly more impact than these lower tier players. However, his first year impact pales compared to that of the all-time top 10 level players (Lebron isn't in that group at this point but his first year impact matched the impact of others in that group).
1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

To simplify for the idiot, 94-95 Bulls were a 500 team, Jordan comes back and they win 76% of their games with him. What a "small" impact.

The first full year Jordan comes back, the Bulls win 72 games, no impact :oldlol:

By the way, I'm eating 2 of these right now:
http://www.lowpricewedding.com/images/Chicago_HotDog.jpg

[chitownsfinest]

Were those stats all of a sudden the reason for Mike winning his first playoff series? If I remember, Mike had to score 50 twice in that first round series just for the Bulls to win. You claim that Mike never won his first series until Pip came in but it is obvious he was the not the ONLY reason they won one in 88 and went deep in 89. Now going to the 89 run, Jordan did take a 47 win squad past two 50 win opponents and took the 89 world champion Pistons to 6 games. Pip averaged about 13 ppg in those playoffs. MJ averaged 35/7/7 during that playoff run. Was Pip the only reason for this as well?
Also I used the season stats because you claim MJ never had a winning season until Pip came in. However, was Pip's 10 ppg all of a sudden the season for the Bulls winning 50 games? I think MJ becoming a more efficient scorer and better team player were better reasons.

I posted this in the other thread (which you haven't responded to yet hmm.. I wonder?) in your usual bullsh*t of MJ never winning crap until Pip came in. What do you have to say about this?

[juju151111]

Sure but look at the list. MJ added the least to his team of all those players. How can this be? You are telling me the "clear GOAT" is only worth 11 more wins over 82 games?

Here are some more impacts by players.

Grant Hill: +8 (similar to MJ's...he missed 12 games btw)
Dominique: +1
Drexler: +2
Barkley: +6
Iverson: +4
K. Malone: +1

So MJ had roughly as much or slightly more impact than these lower tier players. However, his first year impact pales compared to that of the all-time top 10 level players (Lebron isn't in that group at this point but his first year impact matched the impact of others in that group).
Does that stat take into account teammates or injury of teamates?? If not GTFO

[KenneBell]

poor Pippen.
you would think that MJ played defense FOR Pippen.
you would think that MJ shot Pippen's 3s FOR him.

please, for the love of God, give Pippen his due props as one of the greatest SFs of all time.
:oldlol:

[Fatal9]

What the f*ck does this video prove? The quote is that Jordan taught him "small tricks" (like juggling perhaps? :oldlol:).

Are Jordan's "small tricks" really what made Pippen an all-star, a franchise player, a HOFer? :oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

What the f*ck does this video prove? The quote is that Jordan taught him "small tricks" (like juggling perhaps? :oldlol:).

Are Jordan's "small tricks" really what made Pippen an all-star, a franchise player, a HOFer? :oldlol:
Fatal9, get a job Kobe Bryant apostle. My advice.

[bruceblitz]

What the f*ck does this video prove? The quote is that Jordan taught him "small tricks" (like juggling perhaps? :oldlol:).

Are Jordan's "small tricks" really what made Pippen an all-star, a franchise player, a HOFer? :oldlol:
Just for you fatal9:

Team record in games missed:
Kobe Bryant: 53-33 (through 2007)

97: 8-3

98: 3-0

00: 12-4

01: 11-3

02: 2-0

The championship Lakers teams seemed barely affected by the absence of Kobe.

Also of note: Kobe Bryant tore a championship team apart. Michael Jordan pieced a championship team together

So in 2003-2004 the Lakers won 56 games
Shaq leaves L.A. and Kobe leads the Lakers to 34 wins the following year...

--------------
vs
--------------

Team record in games missed

Michael Jordan, Bulls years: 19-49 (.279)

86: 18-43

89: 0-1

92: 0-2

93: 1-3

Even the world champion Bulls suffered 1-5 without their undisputed leader.

Notice a trend?

Record as team leader
Michael Air Jordan: 640-290 (.688)

1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

To simplify for the idiot, 94-95 Bulls were a 500 team, Jordan comes back and they win 76% of their games with him. What a "small" impact.

The first full year Jordan comes back, the Bulls win 72 games, no impact :oldlol:

[Bush4Ever]

Sure but look at the list. MJ added the least to his team of all those players. How can this be? You are telling me the "clear GOAT" is only worth 11 more wins over 82 games?

I am saying there are too many variables and potential confounds to make direct comparisons in the way you are making them.

An easy example is Tim Duncan. Now, Tim Duncan is one of my most favorite players ever, but do you really think the turnaround would have been as great if Robinson had not been injured the previous year and perfectly healthy the next? If not, how much of the change was due to Duncan, and how much was due to Robinson. Can you even know?

I hesitate to even do this, but if you look at the win shares statistics (yeah I know BOO HISS), MJ led the league in win shares pretty much ever year from 1987 to 1997, and was judged to be worth about 18-20 wins per season during the title years, with the number of win shares being approximately equal to the number of wins the player was worth (with a certain level of error)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

[Bush4Ever]

Just stop... You're making too much sense. It's obvious that people are tired of talking about MJ and want to pull out anything they can find to discredit him. You're not helping the cause.

Just let them state their facts, dismiss the context and change people's opinions. :pimp:

The funny thing is that Pippen is one of "my guys", so I feel weird arguing against him in this sense.

[Fatal9]

Just for you fatal9:

Team record in games missed:(championship years)
Kobe Bryant: 53-33 (.616)

97: 8-3

98: 3-0

00: 12-4

01: 11-3

02: 2-0

The championship Lakers teams seemed barely affected by the absence of Kobe.

Also of note: Kobe Bryant tore a championship team apart. Michael Jordan pieced a championship team together

So in 2003-2004 the Lakers won 56 games
Shaq leaves L.A. and Kobe leads the Lakers to 34 wins the following year...

--------------
vs
--------------

Team record in games missed

Michael Jordan, Bulls years: 19-49 (.279)

86: 18-43

89: 0-1

92: 0-2

93: 1-3

Even the world champion Bulls suffered 1-5 without their undisputed leader.

Notice a trend?

Record as team leader
Michael Air Jordan: 640-290 (.688)

1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

To simplify for the idiot, 94-95 Bulls were a 500 team, Jordan comes back and they win 76% of their games with him. What a "small" impact.

The first full year Jordan comes back, the Bulls win 72 games, no impact :oldlol:

Okay :confusedshrug:

Do I really care? I came in to a Pippen thread and you're firing MJ > Kobe stats at me (wtf?).

[nnn123]

Scottie Pippen taught Michael Jordan how to win.

Pippen without Jordan: 20 playoff wins (7 seasons)
Jordan without Pippen: 1 playoff win (5 seasons)

:roll:

There are some people that act like MJ won all by himself, without any help, and that he played w/ a bunch of scrubs. Perhaps people like BruceBlitz. Then you got the other extreme who believe that Jordan wasn't even the best player on the team. RoundballRock, Pippen was an amazing player, definitely top 50 all time (i actually think top 30), but let's not get out of control, that stat above is soooo misleading that it's not even funny, you should know better.

Jordan's years w/o Pippen was in his ROOKIE AND SOPHOMORE SEASON IN THE LEAGUE (assumming you're not counting 86-87 where he was injured for around 70 games I believe). He played with a very lowly talented team with Charles Oakley being the Bulls second best player one year. Compare that to Pippen, you played without Jordan in 1994 in the PRIME OF THIS CAREER, with a championship veteran team that had 5-6 full years to mold and develop together, who do you think is going to have more success??? And that Blazer team later in his career was significantly better than MJ's teammates during the early bulls years as well.

If you take Pippen and ask him to lead a team in his rookie/sophomore season, what would be the result compared to Jordan? Oh wait, Pip himself was a borderline scrub his rookie season, so he wouldn't "lead" anyone anywhere, so the question is moot anyways. Look man, I've definitely been a bulls fan my whole life and I know the extreme contribution that Pip made to each and every one of the 6 champ runs, but let's not get out of control and forget who the man on the team was.

[andgar923]

wow, some really ignorant and stupid posts.

[bruceblitz]

97: 8-3

98: 3-0

00: 12-4

01: 11-3

02: 2-0

Kobe Bryant from 97-03, his team won:

36-10 without him

Wow! Some impact! They actually played better WITHOUT HIM.

[nnn123]

The funny thing is that Pippen is one of "my guys", so I feel weird arguing against him in this sense.


Pippen was soooooo key to all the bulls championships, and I loved him back in the day, but now you got people acting like Pippen was the true leader of the team. I think that's also unfair. Similar to how some people act like everyone sucked on the bulls 'cept Jordan, I think there's another extreme that's unacceptable

[catch24]

The real stat:

'94: Pippen and Bulls go down to the Knicks in 7 (semis), ironically who MJ beat every time prior.

'96: Jordan comes back full strength, leads team to 72 wins (NBA record) and goes on to win a championship - gets the finals mvp for "icing on the cake".

[bruceblitz]

Pippen was soooooo key to all the bulls championships, and I loved him back in the day, but now you got people acting like Pippen was the true leader of the team. I think that's also unfair. Similar to how some people act like everyone sucked on the bulls 'cept Jordan, I think there's another extreme that's unacceptable
Of course Pippen was key. Jordan and Pippen is my personal favorite tandem of all time. Some may argue Kareem/Magic, or Kareem/Big O, or McHale/Bird, etc..... I'm not trying to say Jordan did it on his own, I'm saying he was so dominant as an individual that he carried his team further than they should have gone. This goes without saying, or I thought it did at least.

[catch24]

Of course this turns into a Kobe thread...

:confusedshrug:

[bruceblitz]

The real stat:

'94: Pippen and Bulls go down to the Knicks in 7 (semis), ironically who MJ beat every time prior.

'96: Jordan comes back full strength, leads team to 72 wins (NBA record) and goes on to wins a championship - gets the finals mvp for "icing on the cake".
For one season Pippen caught lightning in a bottle and he was a pretty good team leader despite his problem with trying to freeze out Kukoc in the clutch and getting arrested with that gun. In chicago we thought we had "Jordan's replacement" but we soon learned that nobody could replace MJ, it was such a relief to have Jordan back even though he was clearly past his prime at that point.

[bruceblitz]

Of course this turns into a Kobe thread...

:confusedshrug:
When fatal9 and KennelBell start posting, damn right it does.

[catch24]

For one season Pippen caught lightning in a bottle and he was a pretty good team leader despite his problem with trying to freeze out Kukoc in the clutch and getting arrested with that gun. In chicago we thought we had "Jordan's replacement" but we soon learned that nobody could replace MJ, it was such a relief to have Jordan back even though he was clearly past his prime at that point.

Some of these stats that the "Pippen overraters" pull out are completely useless though Bruce rofl. Jordan was the clear cut/obvious reason to why they won anything. Those 6 finals MVPS were not flukes.

[bruceblitz]

Pippen missed half the season in 97-98 and wasn't even close to 100% in the playoffs that year, Jordan still led the team to a championship. Jordan was also way past his prime and not even close to being as explosive as he was from 87-93, this never gets brought up by anyone but me in these "importance to team" debates.

[bruceblitz]

Some of these stats that the "Pippen overraters" pull out are completely useless though Bruce rofl. Jordan was the clear cut/obvious reason to why they won anything. Those 6 finals MVPS were not flukes.
Agreed. Their theory got set on fire today though.

[Da_Realist]

The funny thing is that Pippen is one of "my guys", so I feel weird arguing against him in this sense.

I feel the EXACT same way. That's why I've been mostly silent in these threads. :cheers:

[bruceblitz]

I feel the EXACT same way. That's why I've been mostly silent in these threads. :cheers:
When Jordan left Da Bulls, personally my hopes for Pippen were sky high, he let me down big time in so many ways, that's why these topics are so annoying to me. Pippen is still one of the all-time greats, probably underrated on most all-time lists, but damn, these people didn't even watch the Bulls in the 80's and 90's, obviously.

[GOBB]

I'm a huge Pippen fan. He is my fav player of all time and one I wanted to be like. But mentioning Bulls won 55 games when he retired is nice. If anything it does more to support Pippen could lead a team to the playoffs as the "man". But the following season mgmt begged MJ back because they didnt appear like the 55 win team anymore. "Da Bulls" became the Chicago Bulls, a playoff contender not a title contender. When MJ got back to his basketball grind what did Chicago do during that 3 yr span before he hung them up?

They lost 43 games out of 246. And in the playoffs went 45-13. They went from the Chicago Bulls back to "Da Bulls". Lets be real.

And MJ was very influential to Pippen. Thats not a bad thing. MJ didnt create Pippen, he simply had things Pippen could learn from to make himself a better player. And even still it was up to Pippen if he wanted to be the player I became a huge fan of or just another good player not great. Pippen couldnt be Portlands "leader" if he didnt learn by playing next to one.

[bruceblitz]

I'm a huge Pippen fan. He is my fav player of all time and one I wanted to be like. But mentioning Bulls won 55 games when he retired is nice. If anything it does more to support Pippen could lead a team to the playoffs as the "man". But the following season mgmt begged MJ back because they didnt appear like the 55 win team anymore. "Da Bulls" became the Chicago Bulls, a playoff contender not a title contender. When MJ got back to his basketball grind what did Chicago do during that 3 yr span before he hung them up?

They lost 43 games out of 246. And in the playoffs went 45-13. They went from the Chicago Bulls back to "Da Bulls". Lets be real.

And MJ was very influential to Pippen. Thats not a bad thing. MJ didnt create Pippen, he simply had things Pippen could learn from to make himself a better player. And even still it was up to Pippen if he wanted to be the player I became a huge fan of or just another good player not great. Pippen couldnt be Portlands "leader" if he didnt learn by playing next to one.
Leave it to a Philadelphia sports fan to put this type of perspective on this topic.

+1 repped

[Fatal9]

The real stat:

'94: Pippen and Bulls go down to the Knicks in 7 (semis), ironically who MJ beat every time prior.

'96: Jordan comes back full strength, leads team to 72 wins (NBA record) and goes on to wins a championship - gets the finals mvp for "icing on the cake".
The real stat:

In '94 Bulls probably go to the finals if it weren't for the horrible call at the end of game 5. Bulls on pace to win around 60 in the games Scottie played (4-6 without him). If they face Pacers in ECF, Bulls have HCA, matchup advantages, a better team and won 4 out of 5 games against them that season.

In '95, if Pippen was given Rodman, Bulls are an instant contender however they lost their best rebounder in Grant. Jordan comes back but the lack of rebounding is too big of a problem, Bulls lose to Orlando. People ALWAYS miss the fact that Grant left them (second best player).

In the one season we got to see Pippen play as the #1 guy, he showed us he was capable of leading a team to 60 wins and a championship with only Horace Grant as his second best player. Check out the games from the '94 season, Pippen was dominant in poor shooting nights too by directing the defense up front and playing very intelligent basketball through his playmaking on offense. Just a treat to watch him play.

Underrating Pippen needs to stop like, right now.

[bruceblitz]

The real stat:

In '94 Bulls probably go to the finals if it weren't for the horrible call at the end of game 5. Bulls on pace to win around 60 in the games Scottie played (4-6 without him). If they face Pacers in ECF, Bulls have HCA, matchup advantages, a better team and won 4 out of 5 games against them that season.

In '95, if Pippen was given Rodman, Bulls are an instant contender however they lost their best rebounder in Grant. Jordan comes back but the lack of rebounding is too big of a problem, Bulls lose to Orlando.

In the one season we got to see Pippen play as the #1 guy, he showed us he was capable of leading a team to 60 wins and a championship with only Horace Grant as his second best player. Check out the games from the '94 season, Pippen was dominant in poor shooting nights too by directing the defense up front and playing very intelligent basketball through his playmaking on offense. Just a treat to watch him play.

Underrating Pippen needs to stop like, right now.
Everyone knows you use Pippen in your crusade type agenda to prop Kobe up to undeserved status. Nice job avoiding all of the facts I posted. Good try kid, now get a job and stop posting on here all day, can't help but notice that your posts go around the clock on here.

[IcanzIIravor]

Perhaps a Jordan board needs to be created here.

[catch24]

The real stat:

In '94 Bulls probably go to the finals if it weren't for the horrible call at the end of game 5. Bulls on pace to win around 60 in the games Scottie played (4-6 without him). If they face Pacers in ECF, Bulls have HCA, matchup advantages, a better team and won 4 out of 5 games against them that season.

In '95, if Pippen was given Rodman, Bulls are an instant contender however they lost their best rebounder in Grant. Jordan comes back but the lack of rebounding is too big of a problem, Bulls lose to Orlando.

In the one season we got to see Pippen play as the #1 guy, he showed us he was capable of leading a team to 60 wins and a championship with only Horace Grant as his second best player. Check out the games from the '94 season, Pippen was dominant in poor shooting nights too by directing the defense up front and playing very intelligent basketball through his playmaking on offense. Just a treat to watch him play.

Underrating Pippen needs to stop like, right now.

Theres no "ifs" or "whats" though fatal9. It's what happened and what is REALITY:

Jordan comes back, wins 72 games as the teams obvious leader and they win a championship. You're grossly overrating Pippen if anything. He is a top 50 player to ever play, what do you want?

[bruceblitz]

Perhaps a Jordan board needs to be created here.
Perhaps too many of these anti-Jordan posters need to learn the history of the game, rather than hand-pick certain parts of the history of the game to prop up players like Kobe Bryant to status undeserved.

[bruceblitz]

Theres no "ifs" or "whats" though fatal9. It's what happened and what is REALITY:

Jordan comes back, wins 72 games as the teams obvious leader and they win a championship. You're grossly overrating Pippen if anything. He is a top 50 player to ever play, what do you want?
Clearly if Jordan was still on the team it wouldn't have come down to speculating about referees, my Bulls would have won 4 straight titles.

[Abraham Lincoln]

I'm a huge Pippen fan. He is my fav player of all time and one I wanted to be like. But mentioning Bulls won 55 games when he retired is nice. If anything it does more to support Pippen could lead a team to the playoffs as the "man". But the following season mgmt begged MJ back because they didnt appear like the 55 win team anymore. "Da Bulls" became the Chicago Bulls, a playoff contender not a title contender. When MJ got back to his basketball grind what did Chicago do during that 3 yr span before he hung them up?

They lost 43 games out of 246. And in the playoffs went 45-13. They went from the Chicago Bulls back to "Da Bulls". Lets be real.

And MJ was very influential to Pippen. Thats not a bad thing. MJ didnt create Pippen, he simply had things Pippen could learn from to make himself a better player. And even still it was up to Pippen if he wanted to be the player I became a huge fan of or just another good player not great. Pippen couldnt be Portlands "leader" if he didnt learn by playing next to one.
Finally, some ****ing common sense from the wise man GOBB.

All that be missing now is the wise man DON to come and state his creedence.

[Fatal9]

Everyone knows you use Pippen in your crusade type agenda to prop Kobe up to undeserved status. Nice job avoiding all of the facts I posted. Good try kid, now get a job and stop posting on here all day, can't help but notice that your posts go around the clock on here.
Total Posts: 2,417 (22.51 posts per day)

Age: 33

^ Bruceblitz

I'm averaging what like 3.5 a day? FYI, 70% of my posts probably come at work.

[bruceblitz]

Total Posts: 2,417 (22.51 posts per day)

Age: 33

^ Bruceblitz

I'm averaging what like 3.5 a day? FYI, 70% of my posts probably come at work.
Collecting that welfare check is hard work, isn't it.

[bruceblitz]

Finally, some ****ing common sense from the wise man GOBB.

All that be missing now is the wise man DON to come and state his creedence.
I love this Abraham Lincoln gimmick.

[catch24]

Clearly if Jordan was still on the team it wouldn't have come down to speculating about referees, my Bulls would have won 4 straight titles.

I'd say from '91-'98 (given some of the acquisitions or possibly keeping their same roster), it doesn't seem that far fetched as many people believe.

[Fatal9]

Collecting that welfare check is hard work, isn't it.
:oldlol:

Dude, if I posted pics of my condo, I'd shut this thread down. And that condo is only during the school year too, leave it empty for the summer.

LOL at an investors assistant questioning me.

[bruceblitz]

I'd say from '91-'98 (given some of the acquisitions or possibly keep their same roster), it doesn't seem that far fetched as many people believe.
I don't know how Jordan led that team to championships in the early 90's. I'm gonna finish my breakdown of Jordan's playoff contributions vs his teammates throughout his Bulls years, just because it needs to be done. He pulled those teams to championships, especially in the 4th quarter. The late 90's Bulls were a superb defensive squad, which allowed Jordan to still lead teams to championships despite his declining athleticism and efficiency as a scorer. The first 3 championships were all about MJ willing that team to wins that we really shouldn't have even won.

[bruceblitz]

:oldlol:

Dude, if I posted pics of my Condo, I'd shut this thread down. And that Condo is only during the school year too, leave it empty for the summer.

LOL at an investors assistant questioning me.
You are a bum.

[catch24]

I don't know how Jordan led that team to championships in the early 90's. I'm gonna finish my breakdown of Jordan's playoff contributions vs his teammates throughout his Bulls years, just because it needs to be done. He pulled those teams to championships, especially in the 4th quarter. The late 90's Bulls were a superb defensive squad, which allowed Jordan to still lead teams to championships despite his declining athleticism and efficiency as a scorer. The first 3 championships were all about MJ willing that team to wins that we really shouldn't have even won.

:cheers:

[bruceblitz]

:cheers:
:cheers: :rockon:

[Bush4Ever]

The real stat:

In '94 Bulls probably go to the finals if it weren't for the horrible call at the end of game 5. Bulls on pace to win around 60 in the games Scottie played (4-6 without him). If they face Pacers in ECF, Bulls have HCA, matchup advantages, a better team and won 4 out of 5 games against them that season.

In '95, if Pippen was given Rodman, Bulls are an instant contender however they lost their best rebounder in Grant. Jordan comes back but the lack of rebounding is too big of a problem, Bulls lose to Orlando. People ALWAYS miss the fact that Grant left them (second best player).

Underrating Pippen needs to stop like, right now.

Your first point is total conjecture, as is the "add Rodman = instant contender" line.

[Toizumi]

everybody chill the fck out. These guys were teammates and they fed of eachother. Jordan was in the league before Scottie so yeah sure he might have taught him some of the ropes. Every rookie player gets some tutelage from guys that been around longer right? That doest mean MJ taught him how to play.. that's BS. Pip was the 5th? (too lazy to check) overall pick for a reason.

http://www.nba.com/jordan/images/jordan_pippen_portplay.jpg

Pip is my favorite player and I believe MJ is GOAT. Both were good without eachother but Pip played the glue guy on some pretty good teams while Jordan was the star player on some bad teams. Pip had more succes for that reason.

[nnn123]

everybody chill the fck out. These guys were teammates and they fed of eachother. Jordan was in the league before Scottie so yeah sure he might have taught him some of the ropes. Every rookie player gets some tutelage from guys that been around longer right? That doest mean MJ taught him how to play.. that's BS. Pip was the 5th? (too lazy to check) overall pick for a reason.

http://www.nba.com/jordan/images/jordan_pippen_portplay.jpg

Pip is my favorite player and I believe MJ is GOAT. Both were good without eachother but Pip played the glue guy on some pretty good teams while Jordan was the star player on some bad teams. Pip had more succes for that reason.

Damn haha, Pip looks tall in that photo

[D-Rose]

http://members.fortunecity.com/bonecrackersworld/pippen_254_021210.jpg
(wont go into img mode)
frame that for ur wall bruce :cheers:

[Abraham Lincoln]

everybody chill the fck out. These guys were teammates and they fed of eachother. Jordan was in the league before Scottie so yeah sure he might have taught him some of the ropes. Every rookie player gets some tutelage from guys that been around longer right? That doest mean MJ taught him how to play.. that's BS. Pip was the 5th? (too lazy to check) overall pick for a reason.

http://www.nba.com/jordan/images/jordan_pippen_portplay.jpg

Pip is my favorite player and I believe MJ is GOAT. Both were good without eachother but Pip played the glue guy on some pretty good teams while Jordan was the star player on some bad teams. Pip had more succes for that reason.100% correct.

Fatal9 bull**** response in 5, 4, 3, 2...

[Fatal9]

Your first point is total conjecture, as is the "add Rodman = instant contender" line.
Yea, man what a baseless conjecture...I mean it's not like the evidence points to what I said. Taking the Conference champion to 7 games while winning nearly 60 games (51-21 when Scottie played) and losing only on a terrible call is not a team contending for a championship, right? Bulls win in 6 if the foul isn't called (3-2 series lead, with Bulls going home where Knicks showed they really couldn't win...and I am irrational to think Bulls win that series. LOL.).

[Fatal9]

100% correct.

Fatal9 bull**** response in 5, 4, 3, 2...
Um, I agree with what he said? It's people like bruceblitz who you need to direct that at considering they are the ones coming up with this "MJ taught Pippen basketball" and "MJ made Pippen" BS.

[Bush4Ever]

Yea, man what a baseless conjecture...I mean it's not like the evidence points to what I said. Taking the Conference champion to 7 games while winning nearly 60 games (51-21 when Scottie played) and losing only on a terrible call is not a team contending for a championship, right?

Not baseless, but not all the strong.

There is no evidence to indicate they would have won in the ECFs, or the Finals. It's just a guess.

Additionally, reducing 7 game series to a single play is a foolish practice, considering that dozens upon dozens of calls (and non-calls) are made in a single game. For all we know, the Bulls were given the benefit of the doubt over the course of the series as a whole. Calls in the second quarter have just as much a numerical impact on a game as calls made late in the game, even though they aren't as emotional.

For example, the Bulls won Game 3 by a single basket. If you want to play the "woulda coulda" game, you better go back and make sure the Bulls got exactly equal or worse treatment than the Knicks in that game, otherwise...the series might have been over even sooner.

Get my drift?

[Fatal9]

Yep, if the Bulls go up 3-2 (which they certainly do, there is really no way Knicks can win the game after the miss) and they have game 6 at home (where Knicks didn't win all series), who are you putting money on? What unreasonable and baseless guesswork by me :rolleyes:

Point is to show Pippen is clearly capable of leading a team to contend. Most incredible fact is that he had such a successful season with Grant as his second best player. In the media and really in the minds of most posters, he's been reduced to just a typical run of the mill all-star who is lucky he latched on to MJ. As a huge Pippen fan growing up, this is very annoying particularly people like bruce and others who claim MJ taught and made Pippen into what he was.

[bruceblitz]

Yep, if the Bulls go up 3-2 (which they certainly do, there is really no way Knicks can win the game after the miss) and they have game 6 at home (where Knicks didn't win all series), who are you putting money on? What unreasonable and baseless guesswork by me :rolleyes:

Point is to show Pippen is clearly capable of leading a team to contend. Most incredible fact is that he had such a successful season with Grant as his second best player. In the media and really in the minds of most posters, he's been reduced to just a typical run of the mill all-star who is lucky he latched on to MJ. As a huge Pippen fan growing up, this is very annoying particularly people like bruce and others who claim MJ taught and made Pippen into what he was.
:oldlol:

This guy is such a liar. He claims that he's not a Kobe fan, when he's a Kobe apostle who shows up in threads that include Kobe or Jordan and his stance is always pro-Kobe or anti-Jordan. He diminishes Jordan and Oscar Robertson while trying to prop up Kobe Bryant. You are such a fraud. You were never a Pippen fan, you are using Pippen in a lame attempt to diminish Jordan's importance to his championship teams, which is hilarious.

Re-read the thread. Fatal9 is a fraud.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol:

This guy is such a liar. He claims that he's not a Kobe fan, when he's a Kobe apostle who shows up in threads that include Kobe or Jordan and his stance is always pro-Kobe or anti-Jordan. He diminishes Jordan and Oscar Robertson while trying to prop up Kobe Bryant. You are such a fraud. You were never a Pippen fan, you are using Pippen in a lame attempt to diminish Jordan's importance to his championship teams, which is hilarious.

Re-read the thread. Fatal9 is a fraud.
Yea, I have literally gigabytes of Pippen/Jordan stuff on my computer because I don't really like either. Have spent time on making only one basketball related mix and it's of Jordan, not Kobe. Pippen/Jordan/Bird are by far three of my favorite players of all time whereas I approach a player like Kobe with indifference. Usually I defend Pippen and Kobe because I feel both of them have become extremely underrated (ie. Pippen being "made" by MJ, Him being just a regular all-star, Kobe is only top 30 etc etc).

[Bush4Ever]

Yep, if the Bulls go up 3-2 (which they certainly do, there is really no way Knicks can win the game after the miss) and they have game 6 at home (where Knicks didn't win all series), who are you putting money on? What unreasonable and baseless guesswork by me :rolleyes:

Point is to show Pippen is clearly capable of leading a team to contend. Most incredible fact is that he had such a successful season with Grant as his second best player. In the media and really in the minds of most posters, he's been reduced to just a typical run of the mill all-star who is lucky he latched on to MJ. As a huge Pippen fan growing up, this is very annoying particularly people like bruce and others who claim MJ taught and made Pippen.

And IF the Bulls got even 1 extra call (shooting) in game 3 they shouldn't have, they lose game 3 and go down 3-0, and the series takes on a whole new complexion.

Unless you want to painstakingly go over every call for every possession of every game, you can't base arguments around single calls.

I also have no idea why you would sneer at Horace Grant being the second best player on a team. He was an all-star, and a 15/11 guy who played good defense. That's solid.

Additionally, that was BJ Armstrong's best year, and he also made the all-star team, albeit in a year of weak Eastern guards, and played out of his skull at moments during the playoffs.

As for the team on the whole, the Bulls were the 6th ranked team on defense in 1994, and were the 2nd best defensive rebounding team in the NBA, areas where Pippen certainly contributed, but areas that cannot be that heavily influenced by only a single player.

So Pippen had two all-star teammates, a reasonable bench, an elite defensive and rebounding team, and arguably the greatest coach ever in Phil Jackson. That is a nice setup, and FAR surpasses anything Jordan had pre-Pippen.

With regards to the famous Knicks/Bulls series, yes the call was horrendous...but how did Pippen respond?

He went 5-16 in game 6, and 8-22 in game 7.


People who deny Pippen's greatness or say MJ "made" Pippen are foolish, but you are swinging too much in the opposite direction.

[LA_Showtime]

Bruceblitz, do everyone a favor and start a blog. Your posts are so much better when you're not trying to A) defend yourself or B) pretend you like Kobe.

[BallPhunk]

:oldlol:

This guy is such a liar. He claims that he's not a Kobe fan, when he's a Kobe apostle who shows up in threads that include Kobe or Jordan and his stance is always pro-Kobe or anti-Jordan.


Magic trick - I only changed a few words, and...

This bruceblitz is such a liar. He claims that he's doesn't hate Kobe, when he's a Jordan apostle who shows up in threads that include Kobe or Jordan and his stance is always pro-Jordan or anti-Kobe.

...it still seems to make sense. Hmmm :rolleyes:

[bruceblitz]

Bruceblitz, do everyone a favor and start a blog. Your posts are so much better when you're not trying to A) defend yourself or B) pretend you like Kobe.
First of all I sense some positive feedback from you pertaining to the facts I do display, this thread is a great indication of what I bring to the table as a fan. I don't need to spin anything....unlike fatal9

Also, as far as "pretending" I like Kobe. I've stated it plain as day, Kobe was my favorite player in the early 00's along with Shaq. Kobe was more fun to watch and I thought Kobe's 02-03 season was one of the best all-around seasons I've seen in the 00's right up there with Wade and LeBron at their best. Ive clearly stated that the thing I like most about Bryant are the influences I see in his game directly from the way Jordan played the game of basketball. Do I like Kobe's personality? Hell no. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate his contribution to the story book that is the history of the NBA.

Unlike people like Fatal9, I don't need to lie about my personal preference.

[bruceblitz]

Yea, I have literally gigabytes of Pippen/Jordan stuff on my computer because I don't really like either. Have spent time on making only one basketball related mix and it's of Jordan, not Kobe. Pippen/Jordan/Bird are by far three of my favorite players of all time whereas I approach a player like Kobe with indifference. Usually I defend Pippen and Kobe because I feel both of them have become extremely underrated (ie. Pippen being "made" by MJ, Him being just a regular all-star, Kobe is only top 30 etc etc).
I just started laughing so hard I almost burped up my 2 chicago style hotdogs I just ate a little while ago....

[LA_Showtime]

First of all I sense some positive feedback from you pertaining to the facts I do display, this thread is a great indication of what I bring to the table as a fan. I don't need to spin anything....unlike fatal9

Also, as far as "pretending" I like Kobe. I've stated it plain as day, Kobe was my favorite player in the early 00's along with Shaq. Kobe was more fun to watch and I thought Kobe's 02-03 season was one of the best all-around seasons I've seen in the 00's right up there with Wade and LeBron at their best. Ive clearly stated that the thing I like most about Bryant are the influences I see in his game directly from the way Jordan played the game of basketball. Do I like Kobe's personality? Hell no. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate his contribution to the story book that is the history of the NBA.

Unlike people like Fatal9, I don't need to lie about my personal preference.

A lot of your posts are really good. The only ones that bother me are the 800 copy/pasted MJ stats.:lol

[XxSMSxX]

Perhaps a Jordan board needs to be created here.

Guess it would only be fair :confusedshrug:

[bruceblitz]

A lot of your posts are really good. The only ones that bother me are the 800 copy/pasted MJ stats.:lol
Here's the thing though, I've battled those misconceptions about Jordan for years, from different sports fans, so when you see the same argument raised by another individual, you respond the same way you responded to a similar remark in the past. I see no reason to change my responses to those type of arguments. Sorry if it annoys you. The facts I present are applicable to any fan who's seeking the truth about MJ's career any way you slice it though. I was smart enough to retain that information so I don't need to keep re-typing it.

[nnn123]

Since we're talking about Michael Jordan in this thread I thought I'd post a hilarious clip I just came across.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBbdg8BdHHc

:roll:

[XxSMSxX]

Since we're talking about Michael Jordan in this thread I thought I'd post a hilarious clip I just came across.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBbdg8BdHHc

:roll:

Well at least he hit the jumper to make up for it lmao

[Roundball_Rock]

Theres no "ifs" or "whats" though fatal9. It's what happened and what is REALITY:

Jordan comes back, wins 72 games as the teams obvious leader and they win a championship.

You cannot have it both ways. If there are no "ifs" or "whats" then the following has to be accepted:

MJ: 1 playoff win without Pippen :oldlol:


I love this Abraham Lincoln gimmick.

I am sure you do. ; )


People ALWAYS miss the fact that Grant left them (second best player).

Exactly. The MJ zealots like to paint a direct line from 47-35 to 72-10. why did a 55-27 team on pace for the #1 seed if its best player was not hurt slip to 47-35? The reason is it was horrible at rebounding and interior defense. Anyone who watched the Bulls then and does not have a MJ worshiping agenda knows this. Their leading rebounders averaged 8, 7, 5, 5, and 3.5 (excluding MJ's 7). They had no great defensive PF or C. This was due to losing Grant's 11 rpg and all-defensive second team defense.

What happened in the interim period? MJ DID come back. What happened? The Bulls were soundly beaten in the second round. The myth makers claim MJ was "rusty." Bull (pardon the pun). Look at his stats. He averaged 31.5 ppg on 48% shooting. This was better than what he did over the next two playoffs. They lost because they were getting killed on the interior.

To remedy this problem they brought in the best rebounder in the league and arguably of all-time who was such a great interior defender that he was a 2 time DPOY. He promptly led the league in rebounds by a mile--averaging almost 3 more than the second leading rebounder. The Bulls improved from a below average rebounding team to the fourth best rebounding team due to him. He also brought great defense to the team and was named to the all-defensive first team, along with Pippen and Jordan.

Here is what was said about the acquisition at the time:


Acquiring a great rebounder and a controversial personality, the Chicago Bulls obtained Dennis Rodman from the San Antonio Spurs yesterday in exchange for Will Perdue, a 7-foot backup center.

The trade reflects Chicago's need for frontcourt help, coupled with San Antonio's desire to rid itself of Rodman. Despite Rodman's eccentric personality, his age (34), his desire for a huge contract and his potential to cause distraction, the Bulls have gambled that the 6-foot-8-inch forward will help them win a title.

Adding Rodman, the league's leading rebounder last season, to a lineup that already includes Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Toni Kukoc makes the Bulls a stronger contender. The Bulls were overpowered by Orlando's frontline during last year's playoffs.

Phil Jackson, the Bulls' coach, has mulled the idea of playing Jordan and Pippen together more in the backcourt, allowing Kukoc to play more small forward and giving the Bulls more backcourt size. But if Rodman causes a rift in team chemistry, particularly during the playoffs, the Bulls may regret the move.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/03/sports/pro-basketball-unhappy-rodman-is-dealt-from-spurs-to-the-bulls.html

It is disingenuous to act as if the 1995-96 Bulls were the same team as the 1994-95 Bulls and that the only difference was MJ shook off his "rust", which was a myth as pointed out earlier.

The larger question is why the need to wrap so many myths around the "clear GOAT"? You don't see this from Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, and Russell partisans? Why the insecurity?

[catch24]

You cannot have it both ways. If there are no "ifs" or "whats" then the following has to be accepted:

MJ: 1 playoff win without Pippen :oldlo:

Look dude, Scottie Pippen was great and clearly had much to do with "da bulls" getting titles, but MJ is and always will be the clear cut leader and main reason why they even touched the rings let alone finals. I like your passion for one of the great players of the game :cheers:

[juju151111]

You cannot have it both ways. If there are no "ifs" or "whats" then the following has to be accepted:

MJ: 1 playoff win without Pippen :oldlol:



I am sure you do. ; )



Exactly. The MJ zealots like to paint a direct line from 47-35 to 72-10. why did a 55-27 team on pace for the #1 seed if its best player was not hurt slip to 47-35? The reason is it was horrible at rebounding and interior defense. Anyone who watched the Bulls then and does not have a MJ worshiping agenda knows this. Their leading rebounders averaged 8, 7, 5, 5, and 3.5 (excluding MJ's 7). They had no great defensive PF or C. This was due to losing Grant's 11 rpg and all-defensive second team defense.

What happened in the interim period? MJ DID come back. What happened? The Bulls were soundly beaten in the second round. The myth makers claim MJ was "rusty." Bull (pardon the pun). Look at his stats. He averaged 31.5 ppg on 48% shooting. This was better than what he did over the next two playoffs. They lost because they were getting killed on the interior.

To remedy this problem they brought in the best rebounder in the league and arguably of all-time who was such a great interior defender that he was a 2 time DPOY. He promptly led the league in rebounds by a mile--averaging almost 3 more than the second leading rebounder. The Bulls improved from a below average rebounding team to the fourth best rebounding team due to him. He also brought great defense to the team and was named to the all-defensive first team, along with Pippen and Jordan.

Here is what was said about the acquisition at the time:



http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/03/sports/pro-basketball-unhappy-rodman-is-dealt-from-spurs-to-the-bulls.html

It is disingenuous to act as if the 1995-96 Bulls were the same team as the 1994-95 Bulls and that the only difference was MJ shook off his "rust", which was a myth as pointed out earlier.

The larger question is why the need to wrap so many myths around the "clear GOAT"? You don't see this from Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, and Russell partisans? Why the insecurity?

Here my post from the 4th page that you skipped
??? I thought Magic was on a team with Kareem which dropped 30 almost every gm in that playoffs.Also don't forget kareem was taking large ****s on the 76ers until the last gm he was injured. Mj came in playing with a HOF top 10 player of all-time??? Magic did

Why do you guys never compare the 94 bulls to the 92 bulls?? You know the bulls when Mj wasn't nursing a injured wrist and bth there star players came from playing in the summer for the first time in how many years. oh yea you have a agenda. What happen to this so called better winner then MJ(PIp) in the 90 ECF??1-10 What happen in 92 when xman pushed him around in his 5th year?/ oh right it doesn't matter because he was playing with Mj He new M would carry the team, but wait Mj can't carry anyone to playoffs wins.

[04mzwach]

That video didn't really explain how Jordan taught Pippen how to play like him. "Little things," What the hell?

[Fatal9]

Look dude, Scottie Pippen was great and clearly had much to do with "da bulls" getting titles, but MJ is and always will be the clear cut leader and main reason why they even touched the rings let alone finals. I like your passion for one of the great players of the game :cheers:
No one is saying MJ wasn't the clear cut leader of the team.

This is really to address people who say Pippen was "made" by MJ, the general disrespect he receives in the media, the general impression die-hard Jordan fans like to propagate where Scottie is "just a sidekick level player". I think what Roundball and I are really trying to get through are two points. One is that Pippen was clearly good enough to lead a team severely outmatched talent-wise to 55-60 wins and serious contention for the championship. The second point is that Pippen isn't some sort of a dispensable star to those Bulls teams. Replace him with ANY other perimeter player during the 90s and Bulls don't win as many championships (if any). Pippen "made" MJ (by helping Mike win championships) as much as MJ made Pippen (by helping Pippen win championships). Who was the leader and better player? Jordan. But Pippen wasn't the pushover people make him out to be.

[bruceblitz]

That video didn't really explain how Jordan taught Pippen how to play like him. "Little things," What the hell?
"Jordan's influences on Pippen were obvious from day 1"

That's the most important quote

[bruceblitz]

On this message board, between the Kobe apostles (like RoundBallRock and Fatal9) and the other Pippen lovers/Jordan diminishers, Pippen is the second most overrated player on this board next to Kobe, anyways... let me put some perspective on Pippen the team leader and the Bulls w/o Jordan...


Again, Da Bulls weren't a championship caliber team without Jordan, that's the bottom line.The 80's Bulls would have been lucky to win 25-28 games without Jordan:
Team record in games Jordan missed

86: 18-43

The early 90-93 Bulls would have been lucky to be an 8th seed without MJ as indicated by this:
Team record in games missed

92: 0-2

93: 1-3

Even the world champion Bulls suffered 1-5 without their undisputed leader.

Notice a trend?

The Bulls had nine different players on that '93-'94 team average at least seven points per game. Chicago wasn't a great team, and certainly not championship-caliber; without MJ. Don't forget Pippen was arrested as the team leader because he had a gun in 94.

With Phil Jackson and the rest of the "Jordanaires" the (mid 90's)Bulls would've averaged 50 wins and gotten at least to the second round regularly. They probably would have been like the 1980's Milwaukee Bucks -- very good, but without a real go-to guy. As for winning championships ... fugetaboutit.

1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

Ah, the Rodman argument....The thing people also forget is that at that point in Rodman's career he was considered a distraction. The level of respect that Rodman had for Jordan was widely understood and Michael Jordan had the ability to keep Rodman's flamboyant nature in check. Considering Pippen's inability to be a good teammate I also don't think Pippen would have kept Rodman in check without Jordan all that time. For instance, I could never look at Scottie Pippen the same way after he took himself out of Game 3 of that Knicks series with 1.4 seconds left on the clock, after Phil Jackson decided Toni Kukoc would take the game's final, game-winning shot (as Pippen sulked, whined, and watched from the bench.) Pippen was perfectly suited to play second fiddle, but was not built to be the top banana. When MJ came back, after shaking off the rust versus Orlando, the Bulls won 72 games in '95-'96, as everyone comfortable in their respective roles…

Pippen missed half the season in 97-98 and wasn't even close to 100% in the playoffs that year, Jordan still led the team to a championship. Jordan was also way past his prime and not even close to being as explosive as he was from 87-93, this never gets brought up by anyone but me in these "importance to team" debates.

In this debate with this Kobe/Pippen fan, it's becoming hard to be too positive about Scottie Pippen. When he left the sinking ship in Chicago to join the Rockets he was thought to be the missing piece. Hakeem Olajuwon and Charles Barkley were aging, and they really needed someone to lean on. Pippen came in saying he would be that person, and then immediately started punking his teammates. His constant complaining and finger-pointing made him the most unpopular player in the history of the Rockets, with fans basically threatening to tar and feather him on his way out of town.

Pippen was better in Portland(than Houston), where expectations were lower, but he didn't have any more success being the "missing piece" there, either. I'll never forget the 2000 Western Conference Finals, in which the Blazers had a chance to eliminate the Lakers in Game 7 in Portland. Portland had a double-digit lead going into the fourth quarter and Pippen inexplicably began taking lots of long jumpers with 20 seconds on the shot clock. It was like he was trying to throw the game . . .and it worked. Portland wound up losing. I guess that's why it was always Steve Kerr or John Paxson taking big shots for the Bulls when MJ deferred. Pippen just wasn't up to it.
Would the Bulls have been a lottery team without MJ? No. But they certainly wouldn't have been a championship team, either.


Again, to re-state the same fact in the same post:
Team record in games missed

Michael Jordan, Bulls years: 19-49 (.279)

86: 18-43

89: 0-1

92: 0-2

93: 1-3

Even the world champion Bulls suffered 1-5 without their undisputed leader.

Notice a trend?

Record as team leader
Michael Air Jordan: 640-290 (.688)
Again, Da Bulls weren't a championship caliber team without Jordan, that's the bottom line.

[catch24]

No one is saying MJ wasn't the clear cut leader of the team.

This is really to address people who say Pippen was "made" by MJ, the general disrespect he receives in the media, the general impression die-hard Jordan fans like to propagate where Scottie is "just a sidekick level player". I think what Roundball and I are really trying to get through are two points. One is that Pippen was clearly good enough to lead a team severely outmatched talent-wise to 55-60 wins and serious contention for the championship. The second point is that Pippen isn't some sort of a dispensable star to those Bulls teams. Replace him with ANY other perimeter player during the 90s and Bulls don't win as many championships (if any). Pippen "made" MJ (by helping Mike win championships) as much as MJ made Pippen (by helping Pippen win championships). Who was the leader and better player? Jordan. But Pippen wasn't the pushover people make him out to be.

I understand that, just making sure everyone remembers what went down, and the main reason to winning.

[bruceblitz]

To also add to my most recent post, take a journey with Mike as he retires, plays baseball, comes back, and comes to the understanding that he needed to work harder during the second 3-peat than the first because his athleticism was not what it was and the layoff had eroded his game a bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a9C2figSXo&feature=channel_page

[The Logo]

Scottie Pippen has been on the NBA All-Defensive First team 8 times. Incredible. He didn't need to learn how to play from someone else. He was a great player, without or without MJ. What wouldn't today's superstars give for a sidekick like Pippen, who was not only a great defender but could create his own shot. How many superstars today have the luxury of playing with a Top 50 All-time player? Not many.

[lilgregoden]

Wow Pippen is the 2nd most overrated player? This guy is an idiot who shouldn't be taken seriously.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Pippen:
Hall of Fame
8-time All-Defense First Team
many time All-Star
top-50 all-time

.... and its all thanks to MJ.
:eek:

[RoseCity07]

Jordan took Pippen under his wing because he saw him working harder then everyone else. You can find this out in Playing for Keeps.

[nnn123]

Pippen:
Hall of Fame
8-time All-Defense First Team
many time All-Star
top-50 all-time

.... and its all thanks to MJ.
:eek:


I don't think people believe it's ALL because of MJ, just that he was a great influence on Scottie. Some of the players, coaches, and Pippen himself have said that Jordan spent a lot of time mentoring him, teaching him certain skills, etc.....and I don't think that's out of the question. Obviously he didn't turn Scottie into a top 50 player all time, it takes a certain amount of inherent skill and physical ability to do that (it's not like MJ could stroll up to my house and turn me into a basketball legend)....but it's MJ's influence on Scottie that has been noted by the Bulls staff. In my opinion, Pip would have still been an all-star player, he had the needed athleticism and skills, yet MJ helped elevate him into that HOF status. I mean, if you think about it, their playing style and versatility on both sides of the floor is strikingly similar....

[Scott Pippen]

I'm a huge Pippen fan. He is my fav player of all time and one I wanted to be like. But mentioning Bulls won 55 games when he retired is nice. If anything it does more to support Pippen could lead a team to the playoffs as the "man". But the following season mgmt begged MJ back because they didnt appear like the 55 win team anymore. "Da Bulls" became the Chicago Bulls, a playoff contender not a title contender. When MJ got back to his basketball grind what did Chicago do during that 3 yr span before he hung them up?

They lost 43 games out of 246. And in the playoffs went 45-13. They went from the Chicago Bulls back to "Da Bulls". Lets be real.

And MJ was very influential to Pippen. Thats not a bad thing. MJ didnt create Pippen, he simply had things Pippen could learn from to make himself a better player. And even still it was up to Pippen if he wanted to be the player I became a huge fan of or just another good player not great. Pippen couldnt be Portlands "leader" if he didnt learn by playing next to one.

Yes I must agree with this. Pip was out for blood that season. And I don't understand why it viewed as negative to teach and to learn things to/from teammates. The objective is to win games, not to try and prove to player only fans who impacts the team more. Same way Oak showed Horace the ways as a rookie, same for Pip & Jordan to an extent. But really there are few things I dislike more than this logic of "having worse teammates automatically = more impressive star." Really it is unbelievable. I have seen this so many times since the 80s. Including some Jordan fanatics (not Bulls fans) in the 90s who always underrated the players like Pip & Horace, saying anybody could take their place, etc.

For all who may say Pip needed (or 100% relied on) Jordan and vice versa, I would say once they started winning they both helped each other, fed off each other, and pushed each other to their highest levels. In my opinion they peaked as a duo in 1997 (playoffs). And neither player won anything before Phil Jackson moved up to the head coach position and implemented his system. For some people (bruceblitz) to assume that Glen Rice in place of Pippen would be an advantage for the Bulls, I don't see it at all. It is useless speculation. They would have to have different personnel + other players roles would change. And for others to assume that Jordan is a failure without Pip is also biased and a useless speculation. We don't know how management would have built the team or if Jordan would have even stayed. Who knows? What if they made it work? What if Phil Jackson never became the HC? What if they drafted Johnny Dawkins instead of Brad Sellers?

What if... it goes on.

To try an promote a certain player by underrating a teammate of his is not only something usually done by player only fans, but almost always relies on out of context statistics and facts that people may misunderstand and take at face value. It is really something I have never liked at all and still strongly dislike among today's player only fans.


Pippen is the second most overrated player on this board
Please let us be realistic, who overrates Pip at all here besides the Kobe lovers? Really nobody that I have seen.

[Sir Charles]

:oldlol: :roll: :applause: :bowdown: TO STUPIDITY...

[VCMVP1551]

:oldlol: :roll: :applause: :bowdown: TO STUPIDITY...

Oh, the irony. :oldlol:

[Calabis]

Um, I agree with what he said? It's people like bruceblitz who you need to direct that at considering they are the ones coming up with this "MJ taught Pippen basketball" and "MJ made Pippen" BS.

I know I am a year late in this conversation, but I just created an account. To think Jordan didn't play a vital role in Scottie's development is insane:hammerhead:. Pippen does not become the premier defender he was if not for MJ.

From Article 09/10/2009: While Jordan

[jstern]

I think most people knew this. Jordan has a particular dunking style, that only Pippen has. But it's really not a big deal. I guess it's like big brother little brother.