If Jordan never retired, would he have a 8-Peat?

[JustinJDW]

I am getting real sick and tired of all these Kobe Threads, so I decided to make a thread about the real GOAT, Michael Jordan.

Most NBA Basketball fans would agree that Michael Jordan is the GOAT. Some respectfully disagree and say Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the best, with the most Career Points in NBA History, his 6 NBA Championships, 6 NBA MVP's, 19x NBA All-Star and countless other Awards. Some make cases for other players like Bill Russell, with an unmatched 11 NBA Championships. He even has an 8-Peat somewhere in there.

Speaking of 8-Peats, if Michael Jordan achieved that in his Career, it would no doubt, in my opinion, rank him as the GOAT, without question or debate. However, would a 8-Peat even have been possible?

To finally get to my point, I want to ask all of you Hardcore Fans personally, if Jordan never retired, would he have achieved an 8-Peat? Now this is for real, cut the bull****. I know we joke around with the topic, but do you honestly think Jordan could have accomplished such a thing? It sure is a hell of a task.

But think about if for a second. Suppose he would have won the 94 and 95 Titles, but that does not necessarily mean he would have won the 96,97 and 98 Titles. Think about the work it must take, the toll it would have on your body to win 8 Rings in a row. Do you think Jordan could do it.

So, I ask you all again. If Jordan never retired, would he have achieved an 8-Peat. Did Hakeem luck out with his 2 Championships? Or would he still have won his Rings. Or maybe Jordan would have grabbed one, but fail to grab any more? What do you think would have happened?

Please Discuss. :cheers:

[Jinxed]

Not if Horace Grant still left for the Magic in 94-95 season. People forget that JORDAN WAS BACK in 95 and was avg his usual 31/6/5 in the playoffs. But without an interior presence to stop Shaq the Magic cruised past them.

It wasn't until they added Rodman in 96' were they going to be dominant again. They needed someone on that team to rebound and play defense and without Grant they had no one.

[thejumpa]

Good question. If any one person/team could win 8 in a row....it's Michael Jordan.

So the answer is yes....

[Gundress]

It would be great series if the Bulls didnt lost by Magic when Jordan came back with #45......Rockets swept Magic in the final series, thinking about how the great series would be Bulls vs Rockets...who would stop Hakeem?

[Glide2keva]

It would be great series if the Bulls didnt lost by Magic when Jordan came back with #45......Rockets swept Magic in the final series, thinking about how the great series would be Bulls vs Rockets...who would stop Hakeem?
I was working at the United Center the first years that it opened. And those were the best years.

If MJ wouldn't have "retired", they would've won at least four in a row, maybe H. Grant stays, then there was no need to get Rodman, but I don't think they would've gotten the last four for the 8 peat though.

It is possible but Jason Caffey was a complete bust as a back up to Horace and never panned out, hence the need to get Rodman.

Who knows

[bruceblitz]

I am getting real sick and tired of all these Kobe Threads, so I decided to make a thread about the real GOAT, Michael Jordan.

Most NBA Basketball fans would agree that Michael Jordan is the GOAT. Some respectfully disagree and say Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the best, with the most Career Points in NBA History, his 6 NBA Championships, 6 NBA MVP's, 19x NBA All-Star and countless other Awards. Some make cases for other players like Bill Russell, with an unmatched 11 NBA Championships. He even has an 8-Peat somewhere in there.

Speaking of 8-Peats, if Michael Jordan achieved that in his Career, it would no doubt, in my opinion, rank him as the GOAT, without question or debate. However, would a 8-Peat even have been possible?

To finally get to my point, I want to ask all of you Hardcore Fans personally, if Jordan never retired, would he have achieved an 8-Peat? Now this is for real, cut the bull****. I know we joke around with the topic, but do you honestly think Jordan could have accomplished such a thing? It sure is a hell of a task.

But think about if for a second. Suppose he would have won the 94 and 95 Titles, but that does not necessarily mean he would have won the 96,97 and 98 Titles. Think about the work it must take, the toll it would have on your body to win 8 Rings in a row. Do you think Jordan could do it.

So, I ask you all again. If Jordan never retired, would he have achieved an 8-Peat. Did Hakeem luck out with his 2 Championships? Or would he still have won his Rings. Or maybe Jordan would have grabbed one, but fail to grab any more? What do you think would have happened?

Please Discuss. :cheers:
I guarantee 7 out of 8.

[Roundball_Rock]

Not if Horace Grant still left for the Magic in 94-95 season. People forget that JORDAN WAS BACK in 95 and was avg his usual 31/6/5 in the playoffs. But without an interior presence to stop Shaq the Magic cruised past them.

It wasn't until they added Rodman in 96' were they going to be dominant again. They needed someone on that team to rebound and play defense and without Grant they had no one.

Exactly. Only propagandists pretend there was a straight line from a 47 win team in 1995 which lost soundly to Orlando in the second round to the 72 win team that sweeped the same Magic the next season. MJ actually played better in the 1995 playoffs than the 1996 playoffs. They lost because Orlando killed them inside. In 1995 they were a below average rebounding team--in 1996 they jumped to 4th best. That wasn't because of MJ.

If MJ did not retire in 1993 and played until 1998 then they would have won 7 out of 8. These are big ifs, though. MJ left in part because he needed a new challenge. If his team won 4 straight, then won again after losing once, would he have played until 1998? Would there be a sufficient challenge left for him?

[spree43]

I'm not going to disrespect Hakeem and the Rockets 94 and 95 seasons by saying the bulls would have beat them
Even with Horace grant they didn't have anyone to guard Olajuwon

But its like the butterfly effect, if Jordan stays another year they maybe resign grant, keep bj, dont get rodman or harper maybe age a bit faster as a team maybe they lose to olajuwon and then don't win any other titles at all

Maybe the Magic get Rodman to go with shaq and penny and win 4 titles of their own, or Rodman goes back to the pistons with hill and dumars

But I dont think he wins 8 in a row, because those two semi development years were needed to get the teams that won later down the road

[NBASTATMAN]

Not if Horace Grant still left for the Magic in 94-95 season. People forget that JORDAN WAS BACK in 95 and was avg his usual 31/6/5 in the playoffs. But without an interior presence to stop Shaq the Magic cruised past them.

It wasn't until they added Rodman in 96' were they going to be dominant again. They needed someone on that team to rebound and play defense and without Grant they had no one.


Yea but Mj made alot of mistakes that year.. Either way I don't think they would have put together a 8 peat.. No way... More like 7 of 8...

[Samurai Swoosh]

I think they definetely would've won in 1994. 1995 would've still been tough without a solid PF, being that Grant skipped town for Orlando. A four peat, one year they would've lost (1995) then would've nailed the three peat again, IMO.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm not going to disrespect Hakeem and the Rockets 94 and 95 seasons by saying the bulls would have beat them
Even with Horace grant they didn't have anyone to guard Olajuwon

They didn't need it. Hakeem had a great series against the Knicks and yet the Knicks came within one shot of winning the title.

The 94' Bulls may have won it without MJ if it weren't Hue Hollin's horrendous call; with MJ it never would have been close enough for Hollins to decide the outcome.

[Samurai Swoosh]

They didn't need it. Hakeem had a great series against the Knicks and yet the Knicks came within one shot of winning the title.

The 94' Bulls may have won it without MJ if it weren't for Hue Hollin's horrendous call; with MJ it never would have been close enough for Hollins to decide the outcome.
Agreed. The '94 team was better than the previous years by a significant margin. 1994 wouldn't have been a great challenge for them. Without Grant in '95, they would've struggled mightily at some point.

[Glide2keva]

They didn't need it. Hakeem had a great series against the Knicks and yet the Knicks came within one shot of winning the title.

The 94' Bulls may have won it without MJ if it weren't for Hue Hollin's horrendous call; with MJ it never would have been close enough for Hollins to decide the outcome.
This I agree with.

[Roundball_Rock]

Keep in mind 94' team would face easier competition than 93' team. The 93' Knicks>94' Knicks, the 93' Cavs>94' Pacers imo, and the 93' Suns>94' Rockets.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Keep in mind 94' team would face easier competition than 93' team. The 93' Knicks>94' Knicks, the 93' Cavs>94' Pacers imo, and the 93' Suns>94' Rockets.
DEFINETELY

well, only one I disagree with is I think the '94 Pacers > '93 Cavs

[BFRESH44]

If Jordan never retired, Hakeem Olajuwon would have zero rings.

[meh]

IMO, no chance of it happening. It's impossible for a player to have the same drive after achieving success so many times. And the drive is what allowed Jordan to thrive even in his later years when his athleticism left him.

That said, 4-peat is almost certain as there were no big roadblocks that year. But 95 is iffy assuming Horace Grant signed with Orlando despite Jordan's return. That Orlando roster was a very bad matchup for the Bulls.

[mavsfan4zindagi]

Yes he would have. 8 straight titles IMO.

[Kiddlovesnets]

He could definitely have a 9-peat if he retired in 2000. The 1998-1999 Spurs are not even comparable to the Bulls.

[bdreason]

I'de go with 6 still, but they may have been consecutive instead of split.

[Glide2keva]

As a person who watched those teams play live on a nightly basis, I can say that the 8 peat wouldn't have happened.

There were too many variables.

Rodman most likely wouldn't've been on those last three teams. I feel that Hprace would've stayed (winning has that effect on people). I mean, why leave if you're winning.

They might not have brought Kukoc over from Croatia (he was drafted in 1992 and could've stayed for any number of years)

Scott Williams would've stayed with the team (he left when they didn't win in 94 and went to Milwaukee), so there was no need to bring Bill Wennington who had the ability to stretch the defense with his 19 foot jumper that was money and just confused Olajuwan (sp?)

The 1994-95 teams were dramatically different than the 93 championship teams.

Thier loss to Orlando in 1995 prompted them to get Ron Harper to play point to matchup with Anfernee Hardaway who was 6'-7" playing point.

Jordan was on that team that lost to Orlando and they rebuilt that team to beat Orlando and it did. If they don't lose to Orlando, they don't rebuild that team.

Like I said way too many variables.

[imlmf]

he retired because of the lost of motivation

even as great as he is, i don't think a unmotivated jordan can win 5 more years in a row

[Glide2keva]

he retired because of the lost of motivation

even as great as he is, i don't think a unmotivated jordan can win 5 more years in a row
If you believe this, I have some beach-front property in Montana to sell you.

MJ was suspended by the league for 18 months for gambling. The retirement was a cover up.

I worked there in the old stadium and the carry over to the United Center. I got cool with a few of the lesser known Bulls Staff members and one of them let me know what the deal was.

Forgot dude's name after 14 years, but I do remember him letting me wear one of the championship rings.

Add this to the fact that there was an article in the Chicago Sun-Times in the summer, right before training camp that had the headline: Jordan Geeked Up About New Season

I read that article and he was very excited to try to win four in a row, something said no other team has done except for the Celtics. That was his motivation and challenge.

He was being investigated by the league for gambling during the 1992 season and into the Olympics. It concluded just before training camp and they didn't want to take the PR hit and have their biggest star and cash cow wallow in shame and hurt the league's image, so they suspended him quietly and they masked it as a retirement.

I say this with all confidence because I was very lucky to be in the position I was in and meet the people I have met during my time there.

I could tell all kinds of stories from my days working there.

[jason816]

Please Discuss. :cheers:


First 3-peat

1994
Assuming Jordan didn't retired and made it to the Finals...
As much as i love watching the Bulls back in the days, I honestly think the Rockets would top that bulls team even with MJ at the starting SG...
one reason: Hakeem Olajuwon. Bulls just didn't have an answer for The Dream.. they had trouble containing him for years.

1995
Assuming Jordan didn't retired, Horace Grant departure, inexperienced Toni Kukoc... well, despite all these, we all knew the Bulls lost to Orlando Magic... but that was the MJ back from retirement. Bulls advance to the Finals and lose to the Rockets again... Hakeem Olajuwon.. this time with Clyde Drexler to guard Jordan.

1996~1998
if they made the same trade with Rodman... MJ did the same weight training during off season...(he did some serious weight training before 1995-96 season, since he realized players are getting more physical after his first retirement)
they win 3 more.

so that's still 6 championship in my opinion... Rockets still would have won in 94 and 95.

[globarticles]

I think the retirement are the reason he gets the last 3 championships.

He was not motivated for basketball after the first three rings. How are you going to win any championship when you are unmotivated.

[imlmf]

If you believe this, I have some beach-front property in Montana to sell you.

MJ was suspended by the league for 18 months for gambling. The retirement was a cover up.

I worked there in the old stadium and the carry over to the United Center. I got cool with a few of the lesser known Bulls Staff members and one of them let me know what the deal was.

Forgot dude's name after 14 years, but I do remember him letting me wear one of the championship rings.

Add this to the fact that there was an article in the Chicago Sun-Times in the summer, right before training camp that had the headline: Jordan Geeked Up About New Season

I read that article and he was very excited to try to win four in a row, something said no other team has done except for the Celtics. That was his motivation and challenge.

He was being investigated by the league for gambling during the 1992 season and into the Olympics. It concluded just before training camp and they didn't want to take the PR hit and have their biggest star and cash cow wallow in shame and hurt the league's image, so they suspended him quietly and they masked it as a retirement.

I say this with all confidence because I was very lucky to be in the position I was in and meet the people I have met during my time there.

I could tell all kinds of stories from my days working there.


interesting never knew that before

[RocketGreatness]

I'm going to say Jordan would have won 7 for 8. I don't think that Bulls team would have won against that 1995 Rockets team since they had Drexler. They would have had no problem taking out the 94 Rockets though, It was Hakeem and a bunch of role players.

However, It may be different if Jordan didn't retire those 1 and a half years. Drexler may have never been a Rocket...Other players could have retired earlier.....Too many variables, but IMO if It was just Jordan who stayed and nothing else changed I would say they would have won 7 out of 8 titles in that span.

[globarticles]

If you believe this, I have some beach-front property in Montana to sell you.

MJ was suspended by the league for 18 months for gambling. The retirement was a cover up.

I worked there in the old stadium and the carry over to the United Center. I got cool with a few of the lesser known Bulls Staff members and one of them let me know what the deal was.

Forgot dude's name after 14 years, but I do remember him letting me wear one of the championship rings.

Add this to the fact that there was an article in the Chicago Sun-Times in the summer, right before training camp that had the headline: Jordan Geeked Up About New Season

I read that article and he was very excited to try to win four in a row, something said no other team has done except for the Celtics. That was his motivation and challenge.

He was being investigated by the league for gambling during the 1992 season and into the Olympics. It concluded just before training camp and they didn't want to take the PR hit and have their biggest star and cash cow wallow in shame and hurt the league's image, so they suspended him quietly and they masked it as a retirement.

I say this with all confidence because I was very lucky to be in the position I was in and meet the people I have met during my time there.

I could tell all kinds of stories from my days working there.
This theory has been floating around for a long time. It's pretty hard to believe the NBA would suspend its biggest moneymaker for 18 months. There's just no big enough reason to do it.

If the suspension would be, say, 3 - 6 months, that theory would be a lot more believable.

[Samurai Swoosh]

If you believe this, I have some beach-front property in Montana to sell you.

MJ was suspended by the league for 18 months for gambling. The retirement was a cover up.

I worked there in the old stadium and the carry over to the United Center. I got cool with a few of the lesser known Bulls Staff members and one of them let me know what the deal was.

Forgot dude's name after 14 years, but I do remember him letting me wear one of the championship rings.

Add this to the fact that there was an article in the Chicago Sun-Times in the summer, right before training camp that had the headline: Jordan Geeked Up About New Season

I read that article and he was very excited to try to win four in a row, something said no other team has done except for the Celtics. That was his motivation and challenge.

He was being investigated by the league for gambling during the 1992 season and into the Olympics. It concluded just before training camp and they didn't want to take the PR hit and have their biggest star and cash cow wallow in shame and hurt the league's image, so they suspended him quietly and they masked it as a retirement.

I say this with all confidence because I was very lucky to be in the position I was in and meet the people I have met during my time there.

I could tell all kinds of stories from my days working there.
Quoted for TRUTH.

And it is the truth.

League covered it up.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

if MJ never retired, he would have 14 in a row.
and that is a FACT.

:wtf:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

If you believe this, I have some beach-front property in Montana to sell you.

MJ was suspended by the league for 18 months for gambling. The retirement was a cover up.

I worked there in the old stadium and the carry over to the United Center. I got cool with a few of the lesser known Bulls Staff members and one of them let me know what the deal was.

Forgot dude's name after 14 years, but I do remember him letting me wear one of the championship rings.

Add this to the fact that there was an article in the Chicago Sun-Times in the summer, right before training camp that had the headline: Jordan Geeked Up About New Season

I read that article and he was very excited to try to win four in a row, something said no other team has done except for the Celtics. That was his motivation and challenge.

He was being investigated by the league for gambling during the 1992 season and into the Olympics. It concluded just before training camp and they didn't want to take the PR hit and have their biggest star and cash cow wallow in shame and hurt the league's image, so they suspended him quietly and they masked it as a retirement.

I say this with all confidence because I was very lucky to be in the position I was in and meet the people I have met during my time there.

I could tell all kinds of stories from my days working there.

was it true that MJ was banging chicks all the time at the stadium..after games. that's what my buddy said who worked there.

[Jinxed]

Not sure if I believe that coverup story.

You guys do remember his dad was murdered by some teenagers right? People go through some emotional times, he said he wanted to go play baseball because that is something his Dad always wanted him to do.

[KingSpeed]

Jordan didn't have a 4-peat in him after 93 or 98. Too mentally drained. He needed the break in 93-94 to come back and win three more in 96-98. Think about it: if he could've 4 peated in 94, then why did he retire? He was done (for the moment) and couldn't go any further (until he had time away.)

[Samurai Swoosh]

You guys do remember his dad was murdered by some teenagers right? People go through some emotional times, he said he wanted to go play baseball because that is something his Dad always wanted him to do.
That became the perfect emotional excuse. But honestly, if you lost your dad, and just retired from a sport that you were no longer enthused about, wouldn't you take the time to spend with your family?

I'm telling you, it's been long rumored, especially in the Chicago land area ... that this is the actual truth of the matter.

Don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. Hell it's more probable than it is possible.

Some even take it to the extents that James Jordan was killed as apart of this debt Jordan might or might not have owed various sharks or whatever. That I don't believe.

But the rest is definetely what I've heard on the low for sometime now.

[brantonli]

Vernon Maxwell can contain Jordan (or at least that's what I hear from die-hard Rockets fans from the 90s) F*ck it, the Rockets would've swept the Bulls in 94 and 95 (lol)

[kobesabi]

Look at all the recent winning teams, you need at least 3 key players. By himself will win no championship. His support cast needs to be there too, else it will collapse. It's like a chair with 3 legs...any of them fall, the whole thing fall.

[nnn123]

If you believe this, I have some beach-front property in Montana to sell you.

MJ was suspended by the league for 18 months for gambling. The retirement was a cover up.

I worked there in the old stadium and the carry over to the United Center. I got cool with a few of the lesser known Bulls Staff members and one of them let me know what the deal was.

Forgot dude's name after 14 years, but I do remember him letting me wear one of the championship rings.

Add this to the fact that there was an article in the Chicago Sun-Times in the summer, right before training camp that had the headline: Jordan Geeked Up About New Season

I read that article and he was very excited to try to win four in a row, something said no other team has done except for the Celtics. That was his motivation and challenge.

He was being investigated by the league for gambling during the 1992 season and into the Olympics. It concluded just before training camp and they didn't want to take the PR hit and have their biggest star and cash cow wallow in shame and hurt the league's image, so they suspended him quietly and they masked it as a retirement.

I say this with all confidence because I was very lucky to be in the position I was in and meet the people I have met during my time there.

I could tell all kinds of stories from my days working there.



Are you saying he was literally suspended for 18 MONTHS? Or are you saying he was suspended for a shorter amount of time, but just retired and came back 18 months later to cover it up? Because I'm sorry that just seems very hard to believe, would the NBA really suspend someone that long for gambling??? Would they suspend MICHAEL JORDAN for that long?

And is 'gambling' such a horrifying thing that MJ would be willing to retire from basketball, just to cover up his gambling problem? I mean it's not like he committed murder...

I'm definitely not saying ur lying or made up this story, I'm just voicing my opinion that this seems seriously unlikely

[nnn123]

was it true that MJ was banging chicks all the time at the stadium..after games. that's what my buddy said who worked there.


Now THIS I can believe :oldlol:

[Thugnificent]

The Rockets would win in 94 and the loss would make the Bulls change their roster plus give MJ motivation, so they would win in 95.
If that would happend, I doubt they would repeat that 95-96 season. One of the best seasons in the NBA imho.

[Lamar Doom]

if he'd NEVER retired? He would have 17 or 18 rings by now. I think that 2001 Lakers team would have gotten him and maybe one of the Hakeem rockets squads. The Lakers would have forfeited to him this year.

[momo]

Ask the Dream.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B8QNXTW6L._SL500_AA280_.jpg

[chitownsfinest]

With the addition of Kukoc to add depth to the bench and a full off season for MJ and Pip to loosen up after the grueling 93 playoff run (which they didn't have in the 92 off season due to the Olympics) the team would easily win 63-67 games in the regular season, giving them home court throughout the playoffs. There was also no real competition in the East that season except for maybe the Knicks who had already been taken to 7 games by an MJ-less Bulls squad and would have easily been defeated by a Bulls team with MJ. In the finals they get the Rockets with home court and win in 6-7 due to Rockets having no second star on their team. Someone mentioned the Bulls having no answer for Hakeem but they didn't have any true answer for Shaq in the 96 ECF but still won handily. MJ/Hakeem cancel each other out production wise, as Thorpe/Grant, Kukoc/Mad Max, and BJ/Smith and Cassell. The difference maker is Pippen's presence which ends up putting the series in the Bulls favor.

In 95, however, the Bulls probably lose to the Rockets even with MJ for a full season because the lack of bruising inside presence since Grant left (Dickey Simpkins was getting minutes that season). Hakeem was also playing absolutely ridiculous in the 95 playoff run and Robert Horry stepped up his game as well. The Cassell/Smith pg tandem played great as well and that would be too much for the 95 Bulls (granted they even get past the Magic). However this is all on the scenario that Grant leaves. Does he still want to leave if MJ is still there? If he doesn't leave, then maybe the Bulls never trade for Rodman which hinders the second three-peat.

This is all, off course, based on what-if scenarios and variety of factors such as injuries could have stepped in. However I still believe that the Bulls could have won 7/8 titles if MJ had stayed.

[chitownsfinest]

Some even take it to the extents that James Jordan was killed as apart of this debt Jordan might or might not have owed various sharks or whatever. That I don't believe.

I highly doubt this because when the NBA was investigating Jordan's gambling issues, they had found that M had written off a 57,000 dollar check to someone he lost money to gambling. I think Jordan routinely paid off his losses and he also stated that his gambling losses never came to the point of effecting his livelihood or his family's safety. Also his dad was killed by a couple of random goons who weren't intending to kill him in the first place and were only trying to tie him up and rob him. One of the assailants also testified they accidentally pulled the trigger (might be true or false).

Regarding the suspension conspiracy, I don't believe it to be true because suspending the league's biggest cash cow for a long period of team does not make a whole lot of sense.

[lxlHoTsAuSelxl]

LOL LA win's game one with a blow out now someone is insecure:( about MJ's legacy*afraid kobe will catch up to MJ's ring count:D *.

[jrong]

Probably.

On a separate note, the one final jewel I always wished MJ had in his crown was if he could have taken the Bulls to the championship when he came back at the very end of '95. I honestly believe if they could have gotten past the Magic that he would have done it.

Jordan was still rusty in those playoffs, but if freaking Luc Longley could have held on to the ball and just dropped it into the basket in the last minute of Game 6 when Mike laid it off to him off of his drive, they would have gone back to Orlando for Game 7 (that's why I always liked Bill Wennington better-- he could be counted on to actually catch the ball and dunk it when Jordan gave him an open dish right under the hoop). And would anybody want to bet against MJ in Game 7?

[JohnnySic]

I dont think anyone beats Houston in '95. Yes MJ was MJ, but Hakeem was playing on MJ's level that year.

[Pinkhearts]

If you did a 3-peat, took a break and then came back to do another 3-peat.... yea you probably can do an 8-peat. In fact I think he can do 9 or 10. The bulls disbanded abit too early.

But you must know that there is more to life than collecting rings. Everybody may dream of winning a ring, but once you start winning a few at ease it'd be like meh...whatever. Especially if you're already world famous and insanely rich. You would want to spend time on other things you always wanted to do that might help you have a better life. And Jordan could use some help in that area seeing that he has to get divorced.

[John Smith]

Obviously. This is why the Houston Rockets send the Chicago Bulls gifts every year because Jordan switching to Pro Baseball allowed the Rox to win a couple.

[Roundball_Rock]

I find it odd that some people in this thread act as if MJ did not play in 1995. Here is what he did in the 1995 playoffs:

31.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 4.5 apg 48% shooting

Compare this to 1996:

30.7, 4.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 46% shooting

Was he "rusty" in 1996 because he was better in 95' than he was in 96' (as well as 97')? :confusedshrug:

[KenneBell]

No.

[thuggets]

jordan is retired. he can't compete and would not have won another championship the year after he retired. get over it

[Bush4Ever]

The Jordan rumor always revolves into he-said/he-said and speculation, and sometimes crass fans who just want to hurt Jordan's legacy for whatever reason (not accusing anyone here of that).

But to answer the topic, even when healthy the Rockets were a very tough matchup for the Bulls.

From 1991 to 1993, the Bulls were 1-5 against the Hakeem Rockets.

I have to say no to the original question, even if Horace Grant had never left and maintained his level of play through 1995.

[Bush4Ever]

I find it odd that some people in this thread act as if MJ did not play in 1995. Here is what he did in the 1995 playoffs:

31.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 4.5 apg 48% shooting

Compare this to 1996:

30.7, 4.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 46% shooting

Was he "rusty" in 1996 because he was better in 95' than he was in 96' (as well as 97')? :confusedshrug:

I think the argument is more centered around Jordan's individual games in the Magic series than anything else.

A strong starter in most playoffs, Jordan irrefutably laid an egg in game 1 of the series, going 8 for 22 with 19 points and EIGHT turnovers.

One of the most clutch players in history? In the closeout game 6 he went 8 for 19 with 24 points and SIX turnovers.

He was great and had some great games in the series, but I have a hard time seeing a prime and focused Jordan allowing either of those games to happen. With that said, I would agree that too much is made of him being "rusty", and that the Horace Grant factor is too frequently overlooked.

[Glide2keva]

was it true that MJ was banging chicks all the time at the stadium..after games. that's what my buddy said who worked there.
I don't doubt it at all. But I will say it would be kind of hard for him to do because I used to see Juanita all the time. one of the things I did at the UC was look after his seat from the old stadium and his mom and wife (then) would be near our area all the time.

But, like I said, I don't doubt it.

[Glide2keva]

Not sure if I believe that coverup story.

You guys do remember his dad was murdered by some teenagers right? People go through some emotional times, he said he wanted to go play baseball because that is something his Dad always wanted him to do.

Those teenagers weren't just regular teenagers. They worked for the people Jordan owed a lot of money to and refused to pay.

That was a hit.

One of the things that came out of that investigation was they found a lock-box full of canceled checks from MJ, made out toa person who was notorious for gambling ties.

Plus the fact the MJ was a notorious welsher on lost bet. He usually paid in autographed items and telling people how much they would be worth and telling them to get their money that way.

Dude got tired of waiting for his money (somewhere near or over 1 million) and ordered the hit. All of this was going on at the same time the NBA was investigating his gambling habit.

It was no secret that everytime he was in NJ or NY he would be at Atlantic City the night before and after the games. They wrote all kinds of articles.

It was no big deal for him to be a million a hole in golf.

He had and still has a terrible gambling addiction and it cost him his dad.

[Bush4Ever]

Those teenagers weren't just regular teenagers. They worked for the people Jordan owed a lot of money to and refused to pay.

That was a hit.

One of the things that came out of that investigation was they found a lock-box full of canceled checks from MJ, made out toa person who was notorious for gambling ties.

Plus the fact the MJ was a notorious welsher on lost bet.

Dude got tired of waiting for his money (somewhere near or over 1 million) and ordered the hit.



Could we see links from reputable sources for these, please?

[Glide2keva]

Are you saying he was literally suspended for 18 MONTHS? Or are you saying he was suspended for a shorter amount of time, but just retired and came back 18 months later to cover it up? Because I'm sorry that just seems very hard to believe, would the NBA really suspend someone that long for gambling??? Would they suspend MICHAEL JORDAN for that long?

And is 'gambling' such a horrifying thing that MJ would be willing to retire from basketball, just to cover up his gambling problem? I mean it's not like he committed murder...

I'm definitely not saying ur lying or made up this story, I'm just voicing my opinion that this seems seriously unlikely
Well it wasn't just gambling which in itself wasn't a big deal. He was betting on NBA games, Bulls game in particular. I think I left that part out. That's what the investigation was about.

That's why he got suspended for that long period of time. They were trying to avoid a Pete Rose situation like in MLB.

It was serious. All the chatter around the The Chicago Stadium from the staff members I knew was pointing it in that direction.

Why would they be building this huge new stadium across the street when the man who made that possible wouldn't be there to play?

Like I said before, he was ready for the season.

It was a week before TC when all of this came to a head and it was a shock that his retirement came out of nowhere. Watch his press conference, he was NOT happy at all. He didn't want to do it.

He threw out the first pitch in Game 1 of the ALCS with the White Sox vs. Toronto and then the next day he retires. It made no sense and when I asked around, this is what I got.

Believe it or not, it's up to you, but I know it's the truth.

[Glide2keva]

If I had em, man you would.

You don't have to believe it. All I can say is I didn't get all my info from the internet and a lot of what I know wasn't reported.

Some of it was, you can read this book called Michael & Me: Our Gambling Addiction-- My Cry for Help! by Richard Esquinas. This is the book that prompted the league investigation.

Now if you want a link to the findings of that investigation, good luck. They don't want to that information out there, so you most likely won't find any. I was there and worked with and knew a lot of people high up in the Bulls organization at the time.

I'm a Jordan fan, so I have no reason to lie. I was in a position to hear and meet a lot of people who knew what was going on, some of them shared a little too much. It doesn't change my view of him as a fan of his. I just know what I know.

You can take it or leave it, makes me no difference.

[Bush4Ever]

If I had em, man you would.

You don't have to believe it. All I can say is I didn't get all my info from the internet and a lot of what I know wasn't reported.

Some of it was, you can read this book called Michael & Me. This is the book that prompted the league investigation.

Now if you want a link to the findings of that investigation, good luck. They don't want to that information out there, so you most likely won't find any. I was there and worked with and knew a lot of people high up in the Bulls organization at the time.

Yeah, and I can play the "he-said, but I can't tell" game to "prove" pretty much anything.

I'm not asking for internet information.

I'm asking which reputable people (be specific, with actual names) in the know made those statements and how they came about knowing what would otherwise be privileged information.

Additionally, it would be nice to know the people behind keeping a person who committed conspiracy to commit murder (the guy who supposedly ordered the hit) from being investigated or charged. Were the police in on it as well?

[Glide2keva]

Yeah, and I can play the "he-said, but I can't tell" game to "prove" pretty much anything.

I'm not asking for internet information.

I'm asking which reputable people (be specific, with actual names) in the know made those statements and how they came about knowing what would otherwise be privileged information.

Additionally, it would be nice to know the people behind keeping a person who committed conspiracy to commit murder (the guy who supposedly ordered the hit) from being investigated or charged. Were the police in on it as well?
Again, you don't have to believe what I said.

I said before I forgot the people's names that I knew back then after having not seen them for more than 12 years.

I'm not going to sit here and try to validate what I said to you. I shared something I knew from my time working there.

Take it or leave it, makes me no difference.

[Bush4Ever]

Again, you don't have to believe what I said.

I said before I forgot the people's names that I knew back then after having not seen them for more than 12 years.

I'm not going to sit here and try to validate what I said to you. I shared something I knew from my time working there.

Take it or leave it, makes me no difference.

I don't care about you "not caring".

I care about the truth.

Establishing something as true requires a lot more than worker gossip from you or a not-so-subtle hatred of MJ from people who agree with you.

Provide real evidence. The burden of proof is on you to provide real evidence because you are making the positive claim.

If you can't provide actual evidence, than hedge your OPINION by saying it is your opinion. Don't pass off guesswork as facts, if you are unable or unwilling to provide evidence.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Yeah, and I can play the "he-said, but I can't tell" game to "prove" pretty much anything.

I'm not asking for internet information.

I'm asking which reputable people (be specific, with actual names) in the know made those statements and how they came about knowing what would otherwise be privileged information.
Additionally, it would be nice to know the people behind keeping a person who committed conspiracy to commit murder (the guy who supposedly ordered the hit) from being investigated or charged. Were the police in on it as well?

he should NOT share that info. he not name names.
jmo.
none of us have to believe it. take it or leave it.

[Myth]

Another question would not necessarily just pertain to 94 and 95, but how would Jordan have faired if he didn't retire after 1998? There certainly was no guarantees since the 98 Bulls showed signs of being beatable (Pacers series), but Pippen and others would have stuck around and been a top team for a few more years and possibly snagged a few more championships.

[emsteez forreal]

OP: you repeated the same thing like 10 times.
"seriously, could jordan have completed an 8-peat. could he? i mean like, 8 times, winning a championship. so my question is: could he have done an 8-peat? not a 5, 6, or 7-peat, but an 8-peat. you may think i mean 9-peat, but i mean 8-peat. could he have done it? we joke about it, but could he have achieved the 8-peat?"

[Bush4Ever]

none of us have to believe it. take it or leave it.

I wonder how that philosophy would fit, if YOU were on the block and being convicted in public opinion on something this serious, if no evidence was actually provided.

If someone accused you of being a kiddie-diddler, and you were being convicted in public opinion by "someone" (anonymously), saying he talked (not confirmed) to "some people" (not confirmed) who were "in the know" (not confirmed) and they said (not confirmed) you were guilty, you would be okay with saying people can "take it or leave it"?

Really?

I find that attitude irresponsible. If MJ did it....fine. But the case needs to be built on something a little bit more solid. I have seen nothing at that end that amounts to anything more than speculation, circumstantial "evidence", or in many cases outright lying.

We can treat the situation with the rigor it deserves. That's all I am asking.

[DwadeOverLebron]

yes i think so why wouldn't he? the rockets and spurs won when he was retired i believe, they wouldn't have stopped the bulls no way jose! all the bulls had to do was get by the magic n the knicks in the eastern conference... no problemo! man! i wish jordan didn't retire! eight ships? he would have cemented his reign as the all time best ever beyond forever and ever.

[Glide2keva]

It wasn't worker gossip. You weren't there. I was.

I shared something I knoew with you. You don't have to believe. I'm not going to go digging for information just to prove it you. You mean nothing to me.

If you were there, reading the articles in the papers, in the Chicago Stadium and United Center (Like I was), and talking to the people I talked to, then you'd know what I know. What I'm saying is not opinion. I had credible people share with me some stuff they weren't supposed to.

I could've easily not have shared it on this forum and you wouldn't be posting about it.

I sharted it because I was there. Hell, even at the number retirement ceremony, I was there for two days working for the NBA as a stand in for the show rehearsals, and I was working when the show went on right next to the stage they had constructed to look like the Bulls center court.

Do I have to provide video proof that I saw Boyz II Men rehearsing their national anthem performance the day before the show? Or the fact that I was chatting with Sinbad, Ahmad Rashad, Craig T. Nelson, larry King, Spike Lee, George Wendt, Woody Harellson, and MJ himself? Do I have to show you video proof that I held the Larry O'Brien Trophy the day before the event or that I saw the Jordan Statue before he did? Or during the Scottie Pippen 1.8 seconds game that I was right behind the basket when Toni Kukoc made the game winning shot against the Knicks? Or that on my first day working there I met Kadeem Hardison (Dwayne Wayne from A Different World) and thathe was sitting in my section and I had to stop people getting his autograph? Or that I met Kareem, Shaq, magic, Shawn Kemp, The Undertaker (Summer Slam 95)?

Like I said, if you don't believe me, it's your prerogative. I can't stop you from thinking what you think.

I know what I know and that's all that matters to me.

I shared it, take it or leave it.

[Glide2keva]

he should NOT share that info. he not name names.
jmo.
none of us have to believe it. take it or leave it.
Exactly!

What I don't understand is why does that seem so far-fetched?

The league was investigating him for betting on NBA games, based on what was said in the book Michael & Me.

It's no secret to anyone from Chicago that was in those circles that MJ was a notorious welsher on bets and never paid anyone in cash. In a news article in the Sun-Times it said they found a lock box of canceled checks from MJ in the guys' house that killed James Jordan.

All of this got swept under the rug, the league didn't want to take the PR hit. They wouldn't recover from their biggest star falling from grace like that.

I have no personal axe to grind against MJ, I am still a fan of his and always will be.

[Bush4Ever]

It wasn't worker gossip. You weren't there. I was.

I shared something I knoew with you. You don't have to believe. I'm not going to go digging for information just to prove it you. You mean nothing to me.

If you were there, reading the articles in the papers, in the Chicago Stadium and United Center (Like I was), and talking to the people I talked to, then you'd know what I know. What I'm saying is not opinion. I had credible people share with me some stuff they weren't supposed to.

I could've easily not have shared it on this forum and you wouldn't be posting about it.

I sharted it because I was there. Hell, even at the number retirement ceremony, I was there for two days working for the NBA as a stand in for the show rehearsals, and I was working when the show went on right next to the stage they had constructed to look like the Bulls center court.

Do I have to provide video proof that I saw Boyz II Men rehearsing their national anthem performance the day before the show? Or the fact that I was chatting with Sinbad, Ahmad Rashad, Craig T. Nelson, larry King, Spike Lee, George Wendt, Woody Harellson, and MJ himself? Do I have to show you video proof that I held the Larry O'Brien Trophy the day before the event or that I saw the Jordan Statue before he did? Or during the Scottie Pippen 1.8 seconds game that I was right behind the basket when Toni Kukoc made the game winning shot against the Knicks? Or that on my first day working there I met Kadeem Hardison (Dwayne Wayne from A Different World) and thathe was sitting in my section and I had to stop people getting his autograph? Or that I met Kareem, Shaq, magic, Shawn Kemp, The Undertaker (Summer Slam 95)?

Like I said, if you don't believe me, it's your prerogative. I can't stop you from thinking what you think.

I know what I know and that's all that matters to me.

I shared it, take it or leave it.

You could have just said "It's my opinion, I have no real evidence" and saved a lot of time.

If your big trump card is an unsupported "I know this guy who knows this guy who said so", then don't expect to be persuasive to any objective skeptic.

[Bush4Ever]

Exactly!
IIn a news article in the Sun-Times it said they found a lock box of canceled checks from MJ in the guys' house that killed James Jordan.


Now, this is what I am talking about. That would be a piece of evidence that is actual worth something in this discussion.

Can I see the news article in question? Year? Date?

[Glide2keva]

LOL i didn't say I know this guy who knows this guy. I said I knew members of the BULLS STAFF.

These are people who work right under Jerry Reinsdorf, they get rings just like the players do.

I got a little too cool with one of the brothers that was on the staff and he shared some information with me. Given that this was 14 years ago, I wish I remembered his name.

Again, if you think I'm lying, I won't dispute you on it because it's a waste of time for me.

I just offered a different perspective because I felt it was relative to the topic at hand.

[Glide2keva]

Now, this is what I am talking about. That would be a piece of evidence that is actual worth something in this discussion.

Can I see the news article in question? Year? Date?
I ahve actually been searching for it, butThe Sun-Times site sucks as far as their archives are concerned. YOu'd have to sear for around september 1993 or so.

Look for anything related to James Jordan's death.

[Xsatyr]

All I know is that Jordan had trouble beating the Rockets in the regular season. Also I am not going to take anything away from Hakeem, I don't think the Bulls would have stopped the Rockets twice.

[Bush4Ever]

LOL i didn't say I know this guy who knows this guy. I said I knew members of the BULLS STAFF.

These are people who work right under Jerry Reinsdorf, they get rings just like the players do.

I got a little too cool with one of the brothers that was on the staff and he shared some information with me. Given that this was 14 years ago, I wish I remembered his name.

Again, if you think I'm lying, I won't dispute you on it because it's a waste of time for me.

I just offered a different perspective because I felt it was relative to the topic at hand.

So, Reinsdorf, the Bulls, and the league were just "coincidentally" careless with this league-breaking information to the point where a staff member of the team in question got a hold of this information?

How did the "staff members" get this information?

How do you know they weren't lying?

Etc....

Look, I hope you don't perceive any of this as a personal attack. It's not. Nor is it a blind defense of MJ (I know he had major gambling issues). But the leap from "gambling issues" to "kicked out of the NBA", to "got his dad killed" requires evidence for a healthy skeptic, preferably evidence that is concrete and not circumstantial.

That's my perspective, you are certainly entitled to yours as well :cheers:

[RocketGreatness]

I'm going to say Jordan would have won 7 for 8. I don't think that Bulls team would have won against that 1995 Rockets team since they had Drexler. They would have had no problem taking out the 94 Rockets though, It was Hakeem and a bunch of role players.

However, It may be different if Jordan didn't retire those 1 and a half years. Drexler may have never been a Rocket...Other players could have retired earlier.....Too many variables, but IMO if It was just Jordan who stayed and nothing else changed I would say they would have won 7 out of 8 titles in that span.
By the way, With you guys talking about Horace Grant being a Bull still, I'm not sure if that would matter much. Hakeem would still torch on players regardless. In the 95 Finals, Grant couldn't double Hakeem because the man he had to cover was Robert Horry who was a knock down 3 point shooter.

Robert Horry was a legit 4 as well and wasn't some 3 playing out of position to get offense like Rashard Lewis. This is why the fronting on Hakeem wasn't as effective aside from his athletic ability, Horry would end up getting open looks and ended up knocking it down.

The 95 team would have took out the Bulls especially with Drexler on that team. 94 Team would have lost though.

[Bush4Ever]

By the way, With you guys talking about Horace Grant being a Bull still, I'm not sure if that would matter much. Hakeem would still torch on players regardless. In the 95 Finals, Grant couldn't double Hakeem because the man he had to cover was Robert Horry who was a knock down 3 point shooter.

Robert Horry was a legit 4 as well and wasn't some 3 playing out of position to get offense like Rashard Lewis. This is why the fronting on Hakeem wasn't as effective aside from his athletic ability, Horry would end up getting open looks and ended up knocking it down.

The 95 team would have took out the Bulls especially with Drexler on that team. 94 Team would have lost though.

I personally was talking about Horace Grant in that he related to the Bulls difficult beating the Magic (both by subtraction and his addition to Orlando, where he played brilliantly in the ECSFs), not the Rockets.

And I personally have a hard time thinking of the team that was taken to the brink by a less-talented and defensive minded Suns team would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan and Grant.

But it can definitely be debated.

[Glide2keva]

So, Reinsdorf, the Bulls, and the league were just "coincidentally" careless with this league-breaking information to the point where a staff member of the team in question got a hold of this information?

How did the "staff members" get this information?

How do you know they weren't lying?

Etc....

Look, I hope you don't perceive any of this as a personal attack. It's not. Nor is it a blind defense of MJ (I know he had major gambling issues). But the leap from "gambling issues" to "kicked out of the NBA", to "got his dad killed" requires evidence for a healthy skeptic, preferably evidence that is concrete and not circumstantial.

That's my perspective, you are certainly entitled to yours as well :cheers:
Hey, man, if you read everything that surrounded that period of time (there was always some report on it in the local papers) you would easily be able to putting a timeline together of events that happened. Now that I will say is my opinion, But what I heard about the investigation I believe it to be true. As I have no reason to think otherwise.

[SCY]

Tired of people acting like Jordan's Bulls didn't lose to the Magic in '95. They lost because of poor frontcourt depth, not because MJ had fresh legs after playing a short season.

[Glide2keva]

I personally was talking about Horace Grant in that he related to the Bulls difficult beating the Magic (both by subtraction and his addition to Orlando, where he played brilliantly in the ECSFs), not the Rockets.

And I personally have a hard time thinking of the team that was taken to the brink by a less-talented and defensive minded Suns team would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan and Grant.

But it can definitely be debated.
In my other posts I said there were too many variables and I don't think that an 8peat would have been possible and I gave detailed reasons why. If you don't mind could you go back and read them and let me know what you think?

[100grandman]

LOL LA win's game one with a blow out now someone is insecure:( about MJ's legacy*afraid kobe will catch up to MJ's ring count:D *.

Fu** Kobe even if he does catch up to Jordan's ring count. MJ is still the GOAT.

[Glide2keva]

Tired of people acting like Jordan's Bulls didn't lose to the Magic in '95. They lost because of poor frontcourt depth, not because MJ had fresh legs after playing a short season.
They lost because the magic were a more complete team at the time and the Bulls were in disarray after having played a certain style for a season ans 3/4, then trying to add MJ back into what was clearly Scottie Pippen leading the way.

MJ was rusty, but he suited up, so no excuses.

Magic played better. Simple as that.

[Bush4Ever]

In my other posts I said there were too many variables and I don't think that an 8peat would have been possible and I gave detailed reasons why. If you don't mind could you go back and read them and let me know what you think?

Sure, give me a minute.

[catch24]

I stumbled upon this...

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id1635/pg1/index.html

not fact, but a little similar to what's been speculated.

(this is about jordan)

[Bush4Ever]

As a person who watched those teams play live on a nightly basis, I can say that the 8 peat wouldn't have happened.

There were too many variables.

Rodman most likely wouldn't've been on those last three teams. I feel that Hprace would've stayed (winning has that effect on people). I mean, why leave if you're winning.

They might not have brought Kukoc over from Croatia (he was drafted in 1992 and could've stayed for any number of years)

Scott Williams would've stayed with the team (he left when they didn't win in 94 and went to Milwaukee), so there was no need to bring Bill Wennington who had the ability to stretch the defense with his 19 foot jumper that was money and just confused Olajuwan (sp?)

The 1994-95 teams were dramatically different than the 93 championship teams.

Thier loss to Orlando in 1995 prompted them to get Ron Harper to play point to matchup with Anfernee Hardaway who was 6'-7" playing point.

Jordan was on that team that lost to Orlando and they rebuilt that team to beat Orlando and it did. If they don't lose to Orlando, they don't rebuild that team.

Like I said way too many variables.

Piece by piece....

1. Regarding the Horace Grant point, that might be true. However, Grant was becoming a bit of a malcontent in 1993 (among other things, he asked for training camp off because Pippen and Jordan had big chunks of it off after the olympic games). But he might have stayed and did for 1994, and played at an all-star level. If Grant had played the whole term, I'm not sure the Bulls lose a whole lot in comparison to Rodman, the reason being that while Rodman was the superior rebounder and defensive player, Grant was a very good rebounder and defensive player in his own right, but was a very solid scorer in a way Rodman never really was, so I think those effects might cancel each other out.

2. Regarding Kukoc, I remember the front office getting major flack from Jordan and Pippen (Jordan for competitive reasons, Pippen financial) about the attention given to Kukoc, which might have been a driving force for why he stayed in Europe for so long.

3. As far as the rest, Horace Grant is the key to me. If he is in Chicago, they win in 1995, because while his subtraction hurt the Bulls, his addition REALLY helped the Magic (he was great in the 1995 series). Now, could that team beat the Rockets, who had usually been a tough matchup for the Jordan/Pippen/Grant lineup?

As far as your larger point about there being too many variables to say for sure, I agree with that. If I were forced to put money on it, I probably would say they would not have won 8 in a row.

[Bush4Ever]

I stumbled upon this...

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id1635/pg3/index.html

not fact, but a little similar to what's been speculated.

I'm pretty sure I have read that before. It's presented rationally.

But it is easy to take a bunch of events and "tell a story" about those events that makes sense to you and other people. The truth of the story is a separate issue, and requires a higher level of evidence.

[catch24]

I'm pretty sure I have read that before. It's presented rationally.

But it is easy to take a bunch of events and "tell a story" about those events that makes sense to you and other people. The truth of the story is a separate issue, and requires a higher level of evidence.

I agree

[Roundball_Rock]

I think the argument is more centered around Jordan's individual games in the Magic series than anything else.

A strong starter in most playoffs, Jordan irrefutably laid an egg in game 1 of the series, going 8 for 22 with 19 points and EIGHT turnovers.

One of the most clutch players in history? In the closeout game 6 he went 8 for 19 with 24 points and SIX turnovers.

I think he may have a choked a bit under pressure. This was the first time since the 80's where his team was the clear underdog. In 1995 he never had more than four turnovers in 17 regular season and 4 playoff games against the Hornets--then he suddenly has 8--one which decided the outcome--in game one against Orlando?

If MJ came back in the last week of the regular season I could buy the "rust" theory but he came back in the middle of March, had time to shake off his rust and played well by the end of the season and the playoffs.

I also think there is over analysis of his 95' performance by MJ fans who want to "explain" why he lost in the second round. In the 1996 NBA finals the Bulls jumped out to a 3-0 lead and then lost two in a row. Game 6 was crucial and the momentum was with Seattle. What did MJ do in game 6? 26% shooting (he still wound up with 22 points because he jacked up 22 shots) and five turnovers. Was this choking? He just had a bad game, like every player occasionally does. Even the GOAT.

Of course it is arguable whether he was rusty but it is moot because there is no way a team whose top rebounder was a SF who averaged 8 rpg and whose second best rebounder was a SG could beat that stacked Orlando team which had Shaq and Horace crashing the boards.


In a news article in the Sun-Times it said they found a lock box of canceled checks from MJ in the guys' house that killed James Jordan.

Really? Can you paste exactly what it said?


By the way, With you guys talking about Horace Grant being a Bull still, I'm not sure if that would matter much. Hakeem would still torch on players regardless.

Sure but he did that against the Knicks and the Knicks were one shot away from winning the title in game 6.

The Grant issue is not about limiting Hakeem but about whether the Bulls could have even made the finals without him. If you put Grant on the 95' Bulls, subtract him from Orlando then I believe the Bulls beat the Magic.


the Bulls were in disarray after having played a certain style for a season ans 3/4, then trying to add MJ back into what was clearly Scottie Pippen leading the way.

They went 21-6 over their final 27 games. MJ returned in the middle of this, they lost two of his first three games, and then they resumed winning.

MJ was clearly the team leader immediately. In his first game he jacked up 28 shots despite shooting 25%, he then took 17, 23, 26, and 37 in the next four games. Pippen took 20, 15, 18, 18, and 12 during this period. In fact Scottie, would only attempt 20 field goals or more once more that season (after doing it 18 times in 64 games without MJ) and even in that game MJ took 19 to Pippen's 20.


Thier loss to Orlando in 1995 prompted them to get Ron Harper to play point to matchup with Anfernee Hardaway who was 6'-7" playing point.

They acquired Harper before the 1994-95 season in order to give Pippen a solid #2 scorer. Remember that Harper was a 20 ppg scorer in the previous season. On paper adding Harper with Pippen would actually result in an improved offense over the 94' Pippen/Grant team, although it would suffer on defense and rebounding. Instead Harper averaged 7 ppg!

Regarding the Bulls vs. Rockets head-to-head, I know the Bulls struggled against them during the first three peat but I just checked and the Bulls actually split their four games with Houston during the 94' and 95' seasons--without MJ. Moreover, they were actually 2-1 against the Rockets when Pippen played. Even in their meeting early in 1993-94 in which Pippen was out due to injury the Bulls lost by only six. Add Pippen and they very likely win that game.

How did Hakeem do in these games? He scored 29, 29, 28, and 15 points. In their last game he shot 2 for 18 but generally he played well. Still, the Bulls split their four games and were 2-1 with Pippen.

[SCREWstonRockets]

During that era, the Rockets use to dominate the Bulls. Sure, it was regular season but what else do we have to go off of?

[Roundball_Rock]

During that era, the Rockets use to dominate the Bulls. Sure, it was regular season but what else do we have to go off of?

Not in 1993-94 and 1994-95, the years in question in the OP. The Bulls even almost beat the Rockets without Pippen in 1993-94.

[eliteballer]

You saw how gassed the Bulls were in 98 and thats with Jordan taking a year and a half off. No way they win in 96/97/98 if he is logging full 94/95 seasons. Deep playoff runs not only add games to seasons but significantly shorten offseasons.

[Killbot]

I wouldn't necessarily say Jordan has an 8-peat, but it certainly can be possible. IMO, I think he might win another championship.