Is LeBron already better than Pippen?

[RocketGreatness]

What is your take on this?

I've seen people already claim this, that LeBron has already surpassed Pippen, somebody explain why Pippen or LeBron is better. So this is not a stupid trolling thread. This is legit. Explain yourselves.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol:

[west]

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/33u7vrq.jpg

[Papaya Petee]

:hammerhead: :oldlol: :D :roll: :banana: :lol no but Yao Ming is

[Knicks101]

6 rings.

[Papaya Petee]

6 rings.


Lebron is clearly the better player 6 rings don't mean much when your the second option.

[plowking]

Why are some people laughing this off? Sure Pippen is more accomplished, but he was never as good as Lebron.

[Fatal9]

Why are some people laughing this off? Sure Pippen is more accomplished, but he was never as good as Lebron.
We're laughing because Pippen was a great player but Lebron-level? Come on.

[Al Thornton]

Lebron is clearly the better player 6 rings don't mean much when your the second option.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Indian guy]

:oldlol:

LeBron from 05-06 onwards became better than Pippen ever was.

[Knicks101]

No rings as the first option > 6 as the second

[branslowski]

LeBron is By Far Better Than Pippen...No need to even write reason's why...

[Papaya Petee]

Pippen is obviously a better defender, but Lebron James is also a really good defender, while on the offensive end Lebron wins by a lot.

Give me 28\7\7 over 20\5\7 anyday.

Lebron is a much better leader as well Pippen always was the second option.

This is coming from a Lebron hater.

[Knicks101]

Pippen is obviously a better defender, but Lebron James is also a really good defender, while on the offensive end Lebron wins by a lot.

Give me 28\7\7 over 20\5\7 anyday.

Lebron is a much better leader as well Pippen always was the second option.

This is coming from a Lebron hater.

So Pippen wouldn't have scored 8 more points a game if he had been the first option?

[Papaya Petee]

So Pippen wouldn't have scored 8 more points a game if he had been the first option?


Maybe once, no way in the world he puts up Lebron averages and leads his team to a NBA finals and a team with the best record in the NBA.

[Maniak]

LeBron needs atleast 2 or 3 rings before I will even start comparing him with Pippen.

[D-Rose]

So Pippen wouldn't have scored 8 more points a game if he had been the first option?
He scored 22 PPG the full season Mike was out.

[west]

So Pippen wouldn't have scored 8 more points a game if he had been the first option?
IF.

[plowking]

What is this better leader crap. All this stuff is so fcukin opinion based. Wade loses - he's the worst leader, then Kobe loses - he's the worst leader, then Lebron... and so forth. No one cares. Those categories are absolutely gay.

Futhermore, Lebron was better from midway through his second season. Sure I'd take Scotties career as of now, but if Lebron wins two or three, I'd take Lebron's career as well.

[plowking]

So Pippen wouldn't have scored 8 more points a game if he had been the first option?

He was the first option for just over 1 and a bit seasons and he didn't put up those numbers. So no.

[Fatal9]

Maybe once, no way in the world he puts up Lebron averages and leads his team to a NBA finals and a team with the best record in the NBA.
Pippen was one bad foul call away from arguably doing that with Horace Grant as the second best player. Also his one full season alone he averaged 22/9/6/3 on 50% with GOAT perimeter defense.

Still, this isn't an argument. Lebron is a top 5 ever type of talent/player, provided he gets the requisite accomplishments.

[Papaya Petee]

What is this better leader crap. All this stuff is so fcukin opinion based. Wade loses - he's the worst leader, then Kobe loses - he's the worst leader, then Lebron... and so forth. No one cares. Those categories are absolutely gay.

Not neccesarilly, best leader could mean teaches his teammates, gets them pumped for the game, fights till the end and so on and so fourth. Although your right in most cases people judge best leader by the current moment.

But, you can't always measure it by statistics becuase who would you rather have as your leader, 19\10 Timmy D. or a 20\10 Zach Randolph?

[plowking]

The only thing that prevents me from putting Lebron higher then Scottie on the all time SF's list is rings at the moment.

[Papaya Petee]

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Pippen was one bad foul call away from arguably doing that with Horace Grant as the second best player. [QUOTE]

He would still have to win in the ECF, although I agree with you.

[Mikaiel]

So Pippen wouldn't have scored 8 more points a game if he had been the first option?


Pippen in 93-94, without MJ : 22.0 points, 49.1 FG%, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, 0.8 blocks, 3.2 TOs.

There's no question Pippen had a better career and is above LeBron on the All-time list, but LeBron is the better player.

[plowking]

Not neccesarilly, best leader could mean teaches his teammates, gets them pumped for the game, fights till the end and so on and so fourth. Although your right in most cases people judge best leader by the current moment.

But, you can't always measure it by statistics becuase who would you rather have as your leader, 19\10 Timmy D. or a 20\10 Zach Randolph?

I'm not measuring by statistics, I'm measuring by what I see on the court. Furthermore, Duncan is better statistically when you count efficiency and defense.

Leadership is one of the most overtalked about areas ever. Each player goes about it differently, and it really shouldn't even be discussed when comparing two players because it's just a lame way to try and place one player ahead of another.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was one bad foul call away from arguably doing that with Horace Grant as the second best player. Also his one full season alone he averaged 22/9/6/3 on 50% with GOAT perimeter defense.

Still, this isn't an argument. Lebron is a top 5 ever type of talent/player, provided he gets the requisite accomplishments.

Another good post, Fatal. Also Lebron got to the finals during a time when the East was a joke, Pippen was in a tough East which featured the Ewing/Starks Knicks, the Miller/Smits Pacers, the Shaq/Penny Magic, Mourning/Johnson Hornets, and Dominique's 57 win Hawks.

Pippen is ahead of Lebron on any all-time ranking at this point but he is at best top 20 all-time and generally considered to be top 30. Lebron has a shot at becoming the GOAT barring injuries. Prime Lebron>prime Pippen; Pippen's overall career with 6 rings>what Lebron has done thus far.


He would still have to win in the ECF, although I agree with you.

The Bulls owned the Pacers 4-1 that year in the regular season.


He was the first option for just over 1 and a bit seasons and he didn't put up those numbers. So no.

That was 1 3/4 seasons. He averaged 22 in 94' and 21.9 in 95' before MJ came back. He had a pass first mentality so he never would average 30 ppg. I think the best he could do would be 25 ppg if he had several seasons in his prime as the #1 option. He averaged 21.3 through the first four months of 1995-96 despite being the #2 option (injuries caused him to tank at the end of the season and he averaged only 13.8 and 15.2 ppg in the final two months of the season). Take away MJ--his scoring average increased by 3.4 the year after MJ retired--and he would be up to 24.7 ppg right there.

[White Chocolate]

LeBron will never be the defender Pippen was. Pippen in his prime was 21/8/7/2. Minus the points, his stats are very comparable to LeBron's. The only thing that puts Pippen above LeBron right now is the rings.

[Rekindled]

6 rings.

robert horry > jordan?

[Knicks101]

robert horry > jordan?

This guy knows what he's talking about.:applause:

[White Chocolate]

robert horry > jordan?


And Brian Scalabrine > Karl Malone and Charles Barkley. :oldlol:

[Meticode]

6 rings.

Robert Horry, 7 rings. :pimp:

[chitownsfinest]

In terms of being the better player Lebron has already surpassed Pip but in terms of greatness and accomplishment, Pip is still better.

[plowking]

LeBron will never be the defender Pippen was. Pippen in his prime was 21/8/7/2. Minus the points, his stats are very comparable to LeBron's. The only thing that puts Pippen above LeBron right now is the rings.

It's easier to score in today's league according to a lot of old timers. So how can we expect Lebron to be as good a defender, since it must be harder to defend if it's easier to score?

A double standard a lot of old timers choose to ignore when saying "players of the 80's would score 40ppg in this league".

[White Chocolate]

It's easier to score in today's league according to a lot of old timers. So how can we expect Lebron to be as good a defender, since it must be harder to defend if it's easier to score?

A double standard a lot of old timers choose to ignore when saying "players of the 80's would score 40ppg in this league".


It took LeBron until his 6th season to get an All-Defensive team nomination. Pippen has 10. LeBron may be the better player even right now, but he will never surpass Pippen defensively. Pippen is possibly the GOAT perimeter defender.

[Roundball_Rock]

And Lebron being on the 1st all-defensive team was a joke. Recall that this was the alleged all-defensive first team:

F Garnett
F James
C Howard
G Bryant
G Paul

Sound familiar? It should!

The all-NBA marketing first team:

F James
C Howard
G Bryant
G Paul
G Wade

What a coincidence! Four of the five biggest stars in the league *just happen* to be the best defenders in the game! :lol

Artest easily>James on defense. Pippen was on 10 all-defensive teams, 8 straight years on the first team, due to merit, not marketing purposes.

[RocketGreatness]

It took LeBron until his 6th season to get an All-Defensive team nomination. Pippen has 10. LeBron may be the better player even right now, but he will never surpass Pippen defensively. Pippen is possibly the GOAT perimeter defender.
Obviously....LeBron's defense reminds me a lot of Amare's last year. It's really not as special as people think.

He's great at chasing down blocks, playing the passing lanes and all that. However, his on-ball defense still needs work. Obviously the Media will ignore that because Hey, It's LeBron James....

His on-ball defense is no better than his teammate Daniel Gibson.

[White Chocolate]

Obviously....LeBron's defense reminds me a lot of Amare's last year. It's really not as special as people think.

He's great at chasing down blocks, playing the passing lanes and all that. However, his on-ball defense still needs work. Obviously the Media will ignore that because Hey, It's LeBron James....

His on-ball defense is no better than his teammate Daniel Gibson.


His D is overrated and I truly think LeBron in general is overrated.

[xxxSuperStar]

Yes to the general question.

Lebron NEEDS a Pippen, a legit second fiddle. His supporting cast is ridiculously horrible. Don't give me any Mo Williams crap; the guy is good, but he isn't a legit second player. LeBron needs another scorer he can rely on who is also good on D (like Pippen). Is Ron Artest available? Shawn Marion?

[Mikaiel]

I don't know how so many people can still question LeBron's defense. We won a ton of games because of his defense in the last 2 years. And I'm not talking about clutch blocks/steals. I'm talking about shutting down the best player on the other team. He has shut down multiple PGs, SGs, SFs and PFs. How many guys can do that ?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Lebron is now better than Pip.
BUT
Pip is still higher in the all-time lists...greater accomplishments.

and Pip was a MUCH better defender. Lebron will never be as good defensively.

[john_d]

i remember pip to have a superb post-up game.

[marcus_v3]

Pippen>LbJ (as of now at least)

Reasons:

1. Defense - pip took it upon himself to guard the best guy out there. Could you imagine Him and Mj at their prime in this zone era. ****! Even Steve Nash would average 5 TO's AT LEAST when playing against those two MO'Fo's!

2. Offensive repertoire.

3. Pip played in an era were fouls right now was nothing but good hard defense. And also, back then the East was pretty stacked. (Prime Zo, Prime Ewing, Prime reggie, etc.)

4. 6 rings as 2nd option > 0 rings as 1st option no matter how you slice it.

5. The reason why pip didn't score a lot was because of the Tri (PJax was still the coach of those Bulls remember) which promotes equal opportunities for everyone to score.

But LBJ is still young. Once he gets a consistent mid range jumper, improves his fundamental defense (not just highlight reel blocks and steals), a few rings here and there, He not only surpasses BOTH Pip and Kobe, but he moves that much closer to The GOAT.

:pimp:

[Kingwillball]

His D is overrated and I truly think LeBron in general is overrated.


Ouch..and let me Guess Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread ?

[depletedW]

Yes.

Pippen accomplished more as the sidekick to a great player, but LeBron is clearly better than Pippen was.

[Roundball_Rock]

Another big reason he did not score that much is that Pippen believed in getting his teammates involved. If you ever hear any of his teammates talk about him they will say they loved him because he was always trying to make sure everyone stayed involved, if someone was struggling he would make sure to get them an easy basket, etc. He was a winner--6 rings, 9 conference finals, and 16 straight playoff appearances. He understood that if he took 30 shots every game that would adversely affect his teammates and hence his chances of winning.

This is why Phil Jackson said: [QUOTE]Former Bulls coach Phil Jackson, in an interview with Sports Illustrated in 1999 stated:

[White Chocolate]

Ouch..and let me Guess Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread ?


I don't like Kobe either. But I think Kobe's versatility is the reason he has played at a high level for so long and will continue to for at least a few more years. LeBron doesn't have Kobe's versatility or his fundamentals.

[RocketGreatness]

His D is overrated and I truly think LeBron in general is overrated.
His overall game is not overrated. Overhyped would be the correct term...



I don't know how so many people can still question LeBron's defense. We won a ton of games because of his defense in the last 2 years. And I'm not talking about clutch blocks/steals. I'm talking about shutting down the best player on the other team. He has shut down multiple PGs, SGs, SFs and PFs. How many guys can do that ?
Not LeBron. His defense is all about blocks and steals. I don't know whether or not fatigue was the reason why Hedo torched him in the Magic-Cavs series, but It wasn't good. He did a poor job on Rafer Alston as well.

[Spudjjay]

:roll:

So Pippen is on LeBron's level?

[GOBB]

It's easier to score in today's league according to a lot of old timers. So how can we expect Lebron to be as good a defender, since it must be harder to defend if it's easier to score?

A double standard a lot of old timers choose to ignore when saying "players of the 80's would score 40ppg in this league".

I'm lost...old timers say they would take adavantage offensively of the league today because the game is setup where the defensive player is at an disadvantage. Even Pippen said he would have a difficult time guarding todays elite scorers based on the rules. Old timers dont ignore anything, they claim what they would avg ppg wise while acknowledging its impossible to play physical defense in todays game. :confusedshrug:

And how the hell was Lebron in his second season better tan Scottie Pippen? Maybe I misread you but if I didnt, shame on you for typing that. :no:

[Human Error]

'09 LeBron is easily better than any Pippen. Heck, I would even trade 2 prime Pippens for '09 LeBron.

[plowking]

I'm lost...old timers say they would take adavantage offensively of the league today because the game is setup where the defensive player is at an disadvantage. Even Pippen said he would have a difficult time guarding todays elite scorers based on the rules. Old timers dont ignore anything, they claim what they would avg ppg wise while acknowledging its impossible to play physical defense in todays game. :confusedshrug:

And how the hell was Lebron in his second season better tan Scottie Pippen? Maybe I misread you but if I didnt, shame on you for typing that. :no:

I'm talking about posters who are blatent 80/90's biased, not players.

Lebron in his second season averaged 27/7/7/2/1. Come on now. At the start of that third season he was definately a better player then Pippen had ever been. His 3rd season he averaged 31ppg or something ridiculous like that.

[PleezeBelieve]

LMAO @ the thought of me taking this thread seriously when only 11% of the posters actually in it, seen a prime Pippen play.

Post-rookie season and on, LeBron > Pippen


And why the f*ck does this thread topic pop up so much. I guess ignorance is truly bliss.

[plowking]

LMAO @ the thought of me taking this thread seriously when only 11% of the posters actually in it, seen a prime Pippen play.

Post-rookie season and on, LeBron > Pippen


And why the f*ck does this thread topic pop up so much. I guess ignorance is truly bliss.

Why are you still here? What happened to "I'm leaving"?

You're really not all you think you are. You can leave and you won't be missed.

[Toizumi]

Pippen is my favorite player of all time and he will always be. He's the reason I got into basketball. But LeBron is better..

[godofgods]

Lebron has been better than Pippen since his rookie year. Pippen = most overrated SF of all time.

[kshutts1]

Pippen is also my favorite player of all time, and this debate is a difficult one for me.

There is no denying Lebron's greatness as a #1 option, always having the ball in his hand, etc. He is a fabulous player, and may one day go down as the greatest of all time.

Pippen, on the other hand, is the ultimate second fiddle, who may or may not have had what it took to be the #1 player, but we will never know.

His stats without Jordan, which have been quoted numerous times, were fantastic. His scoring wasn't as high as some would like to see from a #1 option, but consider his pass-first mentality, as well as that was the first time in his LIFE he was the #1 option, so he didn't really know what to do with it, IMO.
Pippen's defense is second-to-none. Bill Russell, Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton... honestly they, and a select few others, are on the short list for best defenders of all time (Jordan not included because Pippen was better than him, generally guarding the opposing teams' best player, like Magic in '91 Finals).
Look at Pippen's assist numbers for his career with Jordan, and keep in mind that he was the 2nd option to MICHAEL-BALLHOGGING-JORDAN! He put up those numbers without always having the ball in his hand. I imagine Lebron's numbers are "inflated' because he ALWAYS has the ball in his hands. If something happens for the Cavs, good or bad, it's because of Lebron. While that statement alone may be the measure of Lebron's greatness, it is also a reason for all the stat-lovers to reconsider his statistics, especially assists.

Which player is better, Lebron now or Pippen during the championship years? I would LOVE to have either player, but my take is that they are equal rebounders and passers, Lebron a far better scorer and Pippen a far better defender. So take your pick there... would you rather have the better scorer or the better defender?
If it weren't for the game where Pippen sat out the final shot because Kukoc was elected to take it, I would pick him... with that game in mind, I am less willing to buy Phil's statement of Pip's leadership abilities (although I would love to see Pip's reaction to the shot being made), and slightly more willing to pick Lebron.. but who knows. You can't go wrong with either.

[MaxFly]

What is your take on this?

I've seen people already claim this, that LeBron has already surpassed Pippen, somebody explain why Pippen or LeBron is better. So this is not a stupid trolling thread. This is legit. Explain yourselves.

Yes, Lebron is better than Scottie...

[MaxFly]

The only thing that prevents me from putting Lebron higher then Scottie on the all time SF's list is rings at the moment.

I don't necessarily think we're talking about all time rankings right now... I believe the discussion is whether Lebron is a better player right now than Pippen was.

[MaxFly]

I'm lost...old timers say they would take adavantage offensively of the league today because the game is setup where the defensive player is at an disadvantage. Even Pippen said he would have a difficult time guarding todays elite scorers based on the rules. Old timers dont ignore anything, they claim what they would avg ppg wise while acknowledging its impossible to play physical defense in todays game. :confusedshrug:


I think the point the poster was making is that the argument is a 2 way street. If an old timer says that it's easier to score today because defensive players are at a disadvantage, it is also then true that we can't hold today's defenders to the same standards as defenders of other eras because they are "at a disadvantage."

If someone says, "Player x would average 40 points a game in today's league because today's rules put defenders at a disadvantage and make it easier to score" they must also concede that player x wouldn't be as great a defensive player today because they are subject to the same rules that supposedly help them score more easily.

[Norcaliblunt]

Pippen is easily the most overrated player on this board.

[jrong]

Easily. And I'm one of the biggest "Non-Bron-Fans" on this board.

Among "younger" players, Wade is also clearly better than Pippen, and, arguably, so is Chris Paul.

[Clifton]

Lebron is obviously better than Pippen. It's not even close. Take a day off, watch 2 or 3 Bulls games from the 90s, then watch 2 or 3 Cavs games from the last 2 years. It's obvious who the better player is.

I mean why can't people f*cking watch? Why do they have to go to whatever website and copy down thousands of statistics and compare them, if you just WATCHED them PLAY this would not be a question. Pippen isn't in that class. Among his class he is the ideal but you can't compare a Pippen with a guy who has an argument for best player in the league. You just can't.

[Bush4Ever]

Lebron's defensive strides as a player have made this a no-contest.

[Roundball_Rock]

His scoring wasn't as high as some would like to see from a #1 option, but consider his pass-first mentality

Yes, Pippen was one of those players who made his teammates better. Is it a coincidence that Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong made the all-star team only when they were on a Pippen led team? No. Armstrong fell off the face of the Earth without Scottie while Grant reverted to being the 13/9-10 player that he was before Pippen was team leader.

The irony is this thread popped up after LeBron got bounced 2-4 with a 66 win team. Part of the reason it happened is LeBron was a one man show. Scottie understood that, while you can get great stats and sportscenter highlights as a one man show, you will not win anything that way. Cleveland lost only four playoff games this year; the three games where Lebron shot the most were all losses. This is no coincidence...



Look at Pippen's assist numbers for his career with Jordan, and keep in mind that he was the 2nd option to MICHAEL-BALLHOGGING-JORDAN! He put up those numbers without always having the ball in his hand. I imagine Lebron's numbers are "inflated' because he ALWAYS has the ball in his hands.

Good points. Plus, Pip played in the triangle offense, which is notoriously difficult to get assists in. He has the record for assists in that offense with 7. Notice that the Lakers' assist leader usually has something like 4-5 assists in that same offense.


with that game in mind, I am less willing to buy Phil's statement of Pip's leadership abilities

You don't have to. The proof is in the pudding. Look at the record of his teams with him and without him. Even when he was an old man in Portland he was still playing a huge role in the W-L column. Was this because they missed his 11 ppg? No, it was because they missed his leadership.

Look at the W-L record of his teams with him and without him.

1993-94 Bulls: 4-6 without him, 51-21 with him
Over 82 games: on pace for 33 wins without him, 58 wins (#1 seed) with him
Impact: +25

1997-98 Bulls: 24-11 without him, 38-9 with him
Over 82 games: on pace for 56 wins without him (#3 seed), 66 wins (best record in the league) with him
Impact: +10

56 wins would have met that game 7 of the ECF, which the Bulls squeaked by in, would have been played in Indiana and not Chicago...

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him, 35-25 with him
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him, 39-21 with him
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-12 without him, 38-20 with him
Over 82 games: 41 wins without him (#10 in the West), 54 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

[juju151111]

Pippen is also my favorite player of all time, and this debate is a difficult one for me.

There is no denying Lebron's greatness as a #1 option, always having the ball in his hand, etc. He is a fabulous player, and may one day go down as the greatest of all time.

Pippen, on the other hand, is the ultimate second fiddle, who may or may not have had what it took to be the #1 player, but we will never know.

His stats without Jordan, which have been quoted numerous times, were fantastic. His scoring wasn't as high as some would like to see from a #1 option, but consider his pass-first mentality, as well as that was the first time in his LIFE he was the #1 option, so he didn't really know what to do with it, IMO.
Pippen's defense is second-to-none. Bill Russell, Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton... honestly they, and a select few others, are on the short list for best defenders of all time (Jordan not included because Pippen was better than him, generally guarding the opposing teams' best player, like Magic in '91 Finals).
Look at Pippen's assist numbers for his career with Jordan, and keep in mind that he was the 2nd option to MICHAEL-BALLHOGGING-JORDAN! He put up those numbers without always having the ball in his hand. I imagine Lebron's numbers are "inflated' because he ALWAYS has the ball in his hands. If something happens for the Cavs, good or bad, it's because of Lebron. While that statement alone may be the measure of Lebron's greatness, it is also a reason for all the stat-lovers to reconsider his statistics, especially assists.

Which player is better, Lebron now or Pippen during the championship years? I would LOVE to have either player, but my take is that they are equal rebounders and passers, Lebron a far better scorer and Pippen a far better defender. So take your pick there... would you rather have the better scorer or the better defender?
If it weren't for the game where Pippen sat out the final shot because Kukoc was elected to take it, I would pick him... with that game in mind, I am less willing to buy Phil's statement of Pip's leadership abilities (although I would love to see Pip's reaction to the shot being made), and slightly more willing to pick Lebron.. but who knows. You can't go wrong with either.
WTF are you on?? Ball hogging Jordan??? Are you retarded?? Pip routinly run the fuking point you dumbass. LOL Pippen routinly got to create plays which is why he got 6/7 asts playing with MJ. You must be freaking stupid or something. The triangle put the ball in pips hand.

[guy]

Its funny that Jordan was a ball-hog yet he averaged around the same amount of assists as Pippen did during the championship years. And you really can't be a ball-hog in the triangle unless a team routinely plays out of it much like the Lakers did in 06 and 07 when Kobe dominated the ball. And thats not a shot at Kobe, cause I don't blame him for that, since those were easily the by far worse teams that have played in the triangle.

[kurple]

38 mins of great defense > 8 more points and very very overrated defense.

And pippen was one foul call away to take the bulls to the ECF (when the east was great). Lebron has played in the weakest east ever.

[KubiliusF]

I`m not old enough to judge Pippen , i havent seen him play Live . I have seen Lebron for about 2 years. I cant judge.

[Roundball_Rock]

Regarding scoring, it needs to be pointed out that the league now favors perimeter players. In Pippen's day it favored big men. Even with that Pippen was 8th in scoring in 1994 and was in the top 10 in 1995 before MJ came back. However, he was 3rd among perimeter players in 1994 and 4th in 1995. 1994 and 1995 probably aren't even his best seasons as far as scoring goes. In 1996 he was hovering around 9th-13th place in scoring--WITH MJ putting up 30 ppg--before getting hurt (I think he had tendonitis that year). 1992 was another great season. He was 14th with MJ scoring 30 ppg that year as well. If Pippen played without MJ in those seasons he almost certainly would have exceeded 22 ppg. Keep in mind that when MJ retired Pippen's ppg increased by 3.4. 21.3 ppg+3.4=24.7 ppg.

Top 10 in scoring in 1994

David Robinson 29.8 (Center)
Shaq 29.3 (Center)
Hakeem 27.3 (Center)
Dominique 26.0 (SF)
Malone 25.2 (PF)
Ewing 24.5 (Center)
Richmond 23.4 (SG)
Pippen 22.0 (SF)
Barkley 21.6 (PF)
Rice 21.1 (SF)

Summary: 4 centers (including the top 3), 2 PF's (6 big men in total), 3 SF's, 1 SG

Top 10 in scoring in 2009

Wade 30.2 (SG)
James 28.4 (SF)
Kobe 26.8 (SG)
Dirk 25.9 (PF)
Granger 25.8 (SF)
Durant 25.3 (SF)
Paul 22.8 (PG)
Carmelo 22.8 (SF)
Bosh 22.7 (PF)
Roy 22.6 (SG)

Summary: 4 SF's, 3 SG's, 2 PF's (and Dirk is a perimeter type player), and 1 PG. The highest scoring center was 18th at 20.6 (Howard). Yao averaged just under 20 ppg and Shaq just under 18 ppg. The only traditional big man in the top 10 was Bosh in 9th. Also note Paul in 7th. When a PG is 7th in scoring that says something! In 1994 no PG was in the top 20 in scoring.

It seems the position that benefited most from the new NBA is SF's. Prime Pippen would average at least 25 ppg today.

[Clifton]

Its funny that Jordan was a ball-hog yet he averaged around the same amount of assists as Pippen did during the championship years.
that in itself doesn't mean anything. nobody refuses to pass it to a wide open guy to get an easy assist. the mark of a ballhog is he'll only pass it if it'll result in an assist for him or he has absolutely no other choice. and that does apply to Jordan somewhat, but not very much.

[Killer_Instinct]

Hmm....it's draft day. Who will I take? Scottie Pippen, or Lebron James? Tough descion.


Lebron is insane and more dominant that Pippen could dream of being. This isn't even thread worthy.

[Roundball_Rock]

The irony is he will never win a championship if he dominates a team's offense to the point where he always has the ball in his hands, scores 41 points and the rest of the team scores just 48.

[juju151111]

that in itself doesn't mean anything. nobody refuses to pass it to a wide open guy to get an easy assist. the mark of a ballhog is he'll only pass it if it'll result in an assist for him or he has absolutely no other choice. and that does apply to Jordan somewhat, but not very much.
That made no sense.

[godofgods]

Pippen is easily the most overrated player on this board.
Nah dude, that'd be kobe.

[sirkeelma]

Why are some people laughing this off? Sure Pippen is more accomplished, but he was never as good as Lebron.

i agree

[Lebron23]

Pippen is one of the favorite NBA Players in the 1990's, but he's no better than the Current LeBron.

[truethat23]

This should go without question that Lebron is better than Pippen when it comes to talent and overall gameplay.



...this is a rather silly question!

[kshutts1]

That made no sense.

It made tons of sense.

A ballhog will still pass to a wide open teammate.

For argument's sake, let's add MADE UP numbers to the discussion in order to show the point with more clarity...

In a given game, Jordan passed 30 times. He averaged 6 assists a game. 20% of his passes were assists. On the outside, that looks fantastic; what a great passer! But what I am arguing is that he would "hog" the ball, and only pass when necessary OR when it would generate an assist. Therefore, even if the offense would be more smooth if the ball were swung around the perimeter, or if Jordan would pass it so he could reset on the block, etc, he would rather not pass unless forced to, or unless someone was wide open for a high-percentage shot. Therefore his assist number is inflated because he basically refused to pass otherwise.

Pippen, on the other hand, passed 70 times a game. He sent the ball to a teammate in order to facilitate the offense, get the team set up, keep the team in rhythm, etc. Whereas Jordan passed out of necessity, Pip passed (and quite a bit more frequently) because it made everything smoother/easier for all players.

High assist numbers don't necessarily mean that the person is, or is not, a ballhog. But in Jordan's case, it would appear that most of his assists were generated because he would refuse to pass otherwise... aka ballhog.

[lil baller]

No rings as the first option > 6 as the second
watch what you say...so you are saying when like Z-Bo was the number one option he was better than pippen?

[shawbryant]

I'd go with Lebron. Think about his potential. You all will change your mind.

[GiveItToBurrito]

As a Wizards fan who has every reason to hate Lebron and as a child of the 90's who loved Pippen growing up, I have to admit that Lebron's better. Scottie was a great defender with an amazing all-around game, but he was never able to dominate like Lebron can. Yeah, Lebron's stats are kind of puffed up by his system and he has a tendency to hold onto the ball for too long (especially when he's not making a move; I never understood why he would hold it for five seconds while staring down the defender, then attack the basket), but he's still better than Pippen ever was. Even when Pippen was playing on a team without Jordan that was relatively similar to the current Cavs in terms of personnel, he still wasn't able to put up the numbers, both boxscore ones and advanced ones like win shares, PER etc., that Lebron can. Lebron as he is now is on par with Magic, Bird, Kobe, even MJ.

[97 bulls]

As a Wizards fan who has every reason to hate Lebron and as a child of the 90's who loved Pippen growing up, I have to admit that Lebron's better. Scottie was a great defender with an amazing all-around game, but he was never able to dominate like Lebron can. Yeah, Lebron's stats are kind of puffed up by his system and he has a tendency to hold onto the ball for too long (especially when he's not making a move; I never understood why he would hold it for five seconds while staring down the defender, then attack the basket), but he's still better than Pippen ever was. Even when Pippen was playing on a team without Jordan that was relatively similar to the current Cavs in terms of personnel, he still wasn't able to put up the numbers, both boxscore ones and advanced ones like win shares, PER etc., that Lebron can. Lebron as he is now is on par with Magic, Bird, Kobe, even MJ.
let me ask you a question. how many points do you think pip would average if he played in this era and was given free reign to score in an up pace system?

i say at least 25 8 7 with great defense on top. thats close to lebron numbers. and then his defense is better.

[Roundball_Rock]

. Lebron as he is now is on par with Magic, Bird, Kobe, even MJ.

MJ: 6 rings
Magic: 5 rings
Kobe: 3 (4?) rings
Bird: 3 rings
LeBron: 0 rings (09' Cavs are one of only two teams to win 65+ games and not win the title....)

Maybe he should stop hogging the ball (41 points for him, 47 the other 11 players on the team and the team freaking loses...)? Name one team which won a title which had one guy holding onto the ball 90% of the time... LeBron=case study in PER's flaws. Of course he is going to look incredibly efficient when he is on a one man offense in which he gets a lion's share of the points and assists.


how many points do you think pip would average if he played in this era and was given free reign to score in an up pace system?

i say at least 25 8 7 with great defense on top.

At minimum. He may have averaged 25 ppg in 1996 if MJ was not on the team and of course Rodman took away boards from him. He averaged 9 rpg and 8 rpg the two years before Rodman joined the Bulls.

[Lebron23]

Next year LeBron is going to win the Regular Season MVP, NBA All Star Game MVP, Finals MVP, and NBA Scoring title in the 2009-10 NBA Season.

The Comparison between LeBron and Pippen would end.

[GiveItToBurrito]

let me ask you a question. how many points do you think pip would average if he played in this era and was given free reign to score in an up pace system?

i say at least 25 8 7 with great defense on top. thats close to lebron numbers. and then his defense is better.

Your numbers look about right for an up-tempo system, but Lebron puts up his while playing on a very slow-paced team. Plus, even with playing next to Jordan, Pippen was never able to even come close to Lebron's true shooting percentages, which is why I'm able to overlook Pippen's superior defense.

[GiveItToBurrito]

MJ: 6 rings
Magic: 5 rings
Kobe: 3 (4?) rings
Bird: 3 rings
LeBron: 0 rings (09' Cavs are one of only two teams to win 65+ games and not win the title....)

Maybe he should stop hogging the ball (41 points for him, 47 the other 11 players on the team and the team freaking loses...)? Name one team which won a title which had one guy holding onto the ball 90% of the time... LeBron=case study in PER's flaws. Of course he is going to look incredibly efficient when he is on a one man offense in which he gets a lion's share of the points and assists.

Magic, Kobe, and Bird had all those rings by the end of their careers and they got them after playing on teams that were somewhere between very good and completely stacked. I mean, it's not like Lebron's just gone to the playoffs and choked every year, and he's actually had as much or more playoff success than MJ at this point in their careers. Also, I was talking about Lebron's current performance being equal to Bird's, Magic's, MJ's, etc., not that he's had a better career (although I think that he'll have a comparable career), which is a very reasonable thing to say, based both on how they play when you just watch the games and how they compare statistically.

Also, while you can make the case that Lebron hogs the ball or impedes good ball movement, he's not a ballhog in the traditional sense because he creates a ton of shots for his teammates and, most importantly, is the most efficient scorer on his team. Like, Shaq, MJ, and Kobe all took about as many shots per game as Lebron does, and no one calls any of them ballhogs (well, maybe Kobe, but that was only when he was jacking up 25+ shots per game).

[Fatal9]

I mean, it's not like Lebron's just gone to the playoffs and choked every year, and he's actually had as much or more playoff success than MJ at this point in their careers.
Lebron has beat only one 50+ win team in his entire career. He has been fortunate to play 39-45 win teams throughout his career. MJ beat several 50+ win teams by 1990 (or even '89) including a couple as the clear underdog where Bulls won 5-8 games less than their opponent (Cavs, Knicks etc.).

So is anyone REALLY impressed by Lebron's playoff accomplishments? He has beaten only one team, Pistons, that would even make the playoffs in the West. And even then those Pistons only won 3 more games than the Cavs so it wasn't really an upset like people make it out to be. All I know is, Lebron shot 41% in the playoffs two years before this. Got his stats up against a couple of lottery teams this year (Pistons, Hawks) and then got exposed yet again on the road in Orlando (shot 40% on the road, turned the ball over 7 times in a 10 minute timeframe to give away the game, lowest % ever for a 40 point game in playoffs, 3-13 in the last three quarters of elimination game). Keep in mind this is all while shooting an unprecedented # of freethrows outside of Wade in '06, a good portion of them completely undeserved, so if those weren't called his shooting % would be sub-40%. It really becomes annoying watching him and Wade exploit their superstar status by jumping or charging in to players to force the refs to blow a whistle (though Wade does it a bit less than Lebron imo). In the 90s if they tried that, they'd be setting record high TO #s.

Also, excellent point by Roundball in highlighting the clear flaw with PER. Players like Lebron and Paul are handling the ball more than anyone in the history of the game (and for some reason their teammates always get criticized for not showing up...maybe if they were more involved in the plays?!) and as a result, PER really inflates their impact/#s.

[97 bulls]

Your numbers look about right for an up-tempo system, but Lebron puts up his while playing on a very slow-paced team. Plus, even with playing next to Jordan, Pippen was never able to even come close to Lebron's true shooting percentages, which is why I'm able to overlook Pippen's superior defense.
and lebron (whos a drvie first player) never had to go against the centers pip did. and i dont think they play in a slow pace system. why would they to facilitate big Z?

[Lebron23]

Lebron has beat only one 50+ win team in his entire career. He has been fortunate to play 39-45 win teams throughout his career. MJ beat several 50+ win teams by 1990 (or even '89) including a couple as the clear underdog where Bulls won 5-8 games less than their opponent (Cavs, Knicks etc.).

So is anyone REALLY impressed by Lebron's playoff accomplishments? He has beaten only one team, Pistons, that would even make the playoffs in the West. And even then those Pistons only won 3 more games than the Cavs so it wasn't really an upset like people make it out to be. All I know is, Lebron shot 41% in the playoffs two years before this. Got his stats up against a couple of lottery teams this year (Pistons, Hawks) and then got exposed yet again on the road in Orlando (shot 40% on the road, turned the ball over 7 times in a 10 minute timeframe to give away the game, lowest % ever for a 40 point game in playoffs, 3-13 in the last three quarters of elimination game). Keep in mind this is all while shooting an unprecedented # of freethrows outside of Wade in '06, a good portion of them completely undeserved, so if those weren't called his shooting % would be sub-40%. It really becomes annoying watching him and Wade exploit their superstar status by jumping or charging in to players to force the refs to blow a whistle (though Wade does it a bit less than Lebron imo). In the 90s if they tried that, they'd be setting record high TO #s.

Also, excellent point by Roundball in highlighting the clear flaw with PER. Players like Lebron and Paul are handling the ball more than anyone in the history of the game (and for some reason their teammates always get criticized for not showing up...maybe if they were more involved in the plays?!) and as a result, PER really inflates their impact/#s.


You are really a F*cking Moron. You are Jealous of LeBron's success in the NBA, and you are a glorified Kobe D1ckrider.

I hope you disappear next year after the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Portland Trailblazers in the 2010 NBA Finals.

I want to support the Lakers and Kobe Bryant in the NBA Finals, but people like you make me want to hate the guy even though he's one of the best players in NBA History.

[Roundball_Rock]

mean, it's not like Lebron's just gone to the playoffs and choked every year

True--except that he choked when it counted most in the 2007 finals...

He has not had teams equal to those that those other players had but it is a myth that he has always played on bad teams. He beat the Pistons in the ECF and this year had a 66 win team. The 09' Cavs were not great on offense outside of LeBron but they were great on defense. They were 1st in opponent ppg, 1st in opponent FG % and 3rd in defensive rating. Only three teams have ever won 65+ games and then failed to win a championship...


Also, while you can make the case that Lebron hogs the ball or impedes good ball movement, he's not a ballhog in the traditional sense because he creates a ton of shots for his teammates and, most importantly, is the most efficient scorer on his team.

That is what I think. He will have PER and stats as good as anyone in history in this offense but he will never win a championship this way.


Players like Lebron and Paul are handling the ball more than anyone in the history of the game (and for some reason their teammates always get criticized for not showing up...maybe if they were more involved in the plays?!)

Here is what an NBA legend had to say when someone dominates the ball so much:


"Player X had a hot hand, but when that happens, there's a lot of isolation, and it allowed New York to get back into the game. It's not that we don't want him to get his points, but it makes it tough for others to step up when they need to."

And LeBron dominates the ball even more than Player X ever did because LeBron is not only the team's leading scorer but their point forward. Look at his stats in the ECF.

FGA by game: 30, 23, 28, 29, 24, 20
FTA by game: 10, 12, 24, 18, 19, 11
Total shots by game: 40, 35, 52, 47, 43, 31

How can a team like this win?


and lebron (whos a drvie first player) never had to go against the centers pip did

Plus Pippen never benefited from the "favorable" calls LeBron gets. LeBron averaged 16 FTA during the ECF and went to the line even when he was cleanly blocked. :oldlol:


You are really a F*cking Moron. You are Jealous of LeBron's success in the NBA, and you are a glorified Kobe D1ckrider.

He made legit points. People talk about LeBron's greatness and how he has a chance to become the GOAT and this means his record will be heavily scrutinized. If he is going to join the top tier of all-time players he needs to beat real teams in the playoffs a few times and erase memories of the 07' finals and losing with this 66 win team this year. Fortunately for him he has time to do this.

[FinishHim!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-J4mZOcdDE

[Mikaiel]

it is a myth that he has always played on bad teams. He beat the Pistons in the ECF

That doesn't mean the Cavs were a good team. They needed a McDyess ejection and an inhuman effort from LeBron to barely win Game 5. And they needed a rookie (Daniel Gibson) having the game of his life to win Game 6.


and this year had a 66 win team. The 09' Cavs were not great on offense outside of LeBron but they were great on defense. They were 1st in opponent ppg, 1st in opponent FG % and 3rd in defensive rating.

To me, that just proves they have a great coach. They were able to do that defensively without having a great big man anchoring the D, like a KG, Duncan or Dwight. And they had a undersized backcourt. On paper, that really didn't look like a great defensive team. Or a 66 win team. That team still had a lot of holes. No low-post guys. Only 2 and a half guys capable of creating offense (LeBron, Mo and Delonte). Lack of size in the backcourt (Mo, Delonte and Gibson were the 3 primary guards).



And LeBron dominates the ball even more than Player X ever did because LeBron is not only the team's leading scorer but their point forward. Look at his stats in the ECF.


FGA by game: 30, 23, 28, 29, 24, 20
FTA by game: 10, 12, 24, 18, 19, 11
Total shots by game: 40, 35, 52, 47, 43, 31

How can a team like this win?

Our offense was perfectly fine during the ECF. We easily could have won playing that way. Our defense failed us, that's why we lost.

[Dro]

Everytime I see one of these comparisons, I wonder how old some of you dudes really are.........

Now look, I'm not arguing Pippen is better than Lebron overall, because he's not.......

But some of you dudes are selling Pippen WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY, short.....

I'm a Pacer fan and I'm 29.......Living in Indiana my entire life, I've seen most of Pippens games in his prime with the Bulls because they showed them on WGN......

Pippen was a very underrated ball handler where I feel Lebron is a bit overrated in that area..........

And when it comes to their shooting ability, Lebron doesn't look much better to me in that area either.......

The main thing that separates Lebron from Pippen is his strength, ability to get to the rim and finish......And his speed in the open floor.....

Scottie was a great finisher and minus the dunks and high flying acrobats, he was every bit the finisher that Lebron was, and is probably much better with his off hand than Lebron is......

As far as defense, that has been covered.....Lebron's defense has improved but he is NOWHERE near deserving of being on the all defense first team....And he definitely isn't the defender that Pippen is.....Pippen's checked em all, everyone from MJ in practice to Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Alex English, Magic Johnson, Reggie Miller, etc, etc, you name it, he's defended some of the best scorers in NBA history.....You can't even THINK of putting Lebron over Pippen in that category..

And for good measure, Pippen's post game was also superior to Lebron's....He utilized his height much better around the basket....

Like I said, the main thing that separates the two is Lebron's athletic ability which is also the reason he's better at getting the hoop, in the open floor and at finishing above the rim..

Lebron sees the floor better than pip and makes flashier passes, that doesn't mean he makes better passes or that he's even a better passer at all.....

So when it comes down to it, Lebron's a better score(partly because of his athleticism) and a more explosive finisher.....

Lebron has the potential to be GOAT so what? Thats potential.....I thought we were judging Lebron's career up this point and judging from that, he hasn't reached Pippen's level career wise.....

[beau_boy04]

Lebron James has long time ago surpassed Scottie Pippen. Pippen had only 1 year as a first option and he did great. Lebron has always been the first option and has exceeded all expectations and the hype around him. Lebron as a first and second option is way better than prime Pippen.

Could you have imagine what Michael Jordan could have accomplished if he had Lebron James as his partner?

[Mikaiel]

It's amazing how many people question LeBron's ability to finish with his off-hand :wtf: He's been able to do that since he came into the league ...

[Fatal9]

Excellent post Dro :applause:. The people underrating him either never saw him play much or have an agenda. I do disagree on the point of finishing with the off hand though, Lebron's probably the best left hand finisher in the game right now.

[Roundball_Rock]

Lebron James has long time ago surpassed Scottie Pippen. Pippen had only 1 year as a first option and he did great. Lebron has always been the first option and has exceeded all expectations and the hype around him. Lebron as a first and second option is way better than prime Pippen.

If LeBron played with the GOAT he would have been the second option as well.

LeBron has not exceeded the hype. The guy could not reach the finals with a 66 win team. This is only the third time a 65+ win team failed to win a championship and while you may expect it from Dirk Nowitzki surely the great Lebron should be above losing with a 66 win team...

Great post Dro! :applause:

[Indian guy]

The guy could not reach the finals with a 66 win team.

They ridiculously overachieved by winning 66 games to begin with, thanks mainly to LeBron having one of the greatest regular seasons of ALL TIME. Compare Cleveland's talent to those other 65+ win teams. It's a joke.

Anyway, why the **** is this thread still going on? This isn't much of a comparison. Pippen's a Top 40 ALL TIME great, but LeBron surpassed him by a wide margin a long time ago. He's simply the far more impactful on-court player.

[beau_boy04]

Had Lebron played with MJ he would averaged somewhere along these lines

25 points, 9 rebounds and 10 assist

and MJ's numbers 33points, 6rebounds and 7 assits

[Bush4Ever]

Lebron's teammates being talented enough for the Cavs to win 66 games, misses the point in my opinion.

They are good enough to absolute smash the weaklings and average teams of the NBA. They are not good enough to handle the elite teams of the NBA, the teams that are beating the Cavs in the playoffs, nor the series that is being held as examples of Lebron "choking".

Against the 4 best teams in the NBA (IMO Orlando, Boston, Houston, Lakers), the Cavs went 4-7. Some of that falls on Lebron playing below standards himself, but it is pretty telling nevertheless.

[Ballin']

It's amazing how many people question LeBron's ability to finish with his off-hand :wtf: He's been able to do that since he came into the league ...

Lebron is good, but Pippen was much better with his off hand. Jordan commented that Pippen's ability to score with his left was better than his own. Pippen was great dunking with his left.

[Roundball_Rock]

They ridiculously overachieved by winning 66 games to begin with, thanks mainly to LeBron having one of the greatest regular seasons of ALL TIME.

They won 45 games the previous season. LeBron was basically the same player that season. The team as a whole improved and no 66 win team is a fluke.

Pippen is top 20 all-time, LeBron has yet to pass him on the all-time lists but LeBron's peak thus far>Pippen's peak. Of course, Scottie brought home the ultimate prize 6 times.


Had Lebron played with MJ he would averaged somewhere along these lines

25 points, 9 rebounds and 10 assist

and MJ's numbers 33points, 6rebounds and 7 assits

How exactly would that work? MJ's numbers would not go down at all when you insert a guy who scored roughly 5 ppg more than Pippen into the lineup? Let me guess: LeBron would "create" extra points for the team--just like he did this year in the ECF. :oldlol:

10 assists? The record for the triangle offense is 7.0, held by Pippen. LeBron can't even get to 10 with the Cavs despite having the ball 90% of the time. If he played on the Bulls he would average 4-5 apg.

If prime Pippen played on the 09' Cavs he would average 25 ppg, 10 assists and 9 boards.

[Jenna J]

Meth is a hell of a drug....Pippen was so overrated....so yes Lebron is already way better then Pippen ever was.

[Hoodlum Science]

LeBron is the best, I like him.

[Hoodlum Science]

Meth is a hell of a drug....Pippen was so overrated....so yes Lebron is already way better then Pippen ever was.

Baboons can't do drugs, 'cause we go crazy. hehe hell we crazy enough it is already as!

[Roundball_Rock]

Against the 4 best teams in the NBA (IMO Orlando, Boston, Houston, Lakers), the Cavs went 4-7. Some of that falls on Lebron playing below standards himself, but it is pretty telling nevertheless.

This is the excuse LeBron fans have been using to explain away how a 66 win team lost with the great LeBron. The problem is that when top teams play top teams their winning percentage will inevitably decline. Boston went 5-7 against these teams. Does this mean Boston was a pretender? Orlando was 7-5 against these teams but that is inflated by LeBron losing twice to Orlando. Take away the Cavs and the Magic were 5-4 against the elite. Houston was 4-6 against the top teams. Only the Lakers crushed the elite teams. 4-7 is not that bad when put into context.

How much was this due to his teammates and how much was due to LeBron?

LJ vs. Boston: 28/6/6 on 48% shooting. Result: 2-2
LJ vs. Houston: 25/3/a measly 2.5 assists on 41% shooting. Result: 1-1. In the game they lost LeBron shot 33% and had ZERO assists and only one rebound.
LJ vs. LAL: 19.5/8.5/8 on 31% shooting. Result: 0-2
LJ vs. Orlando: 31/10/7 on 43% shooting. Result: 1-2. These stats are inflated by a 43/12/8/4 game he had in their win. When they lost he shot 35% and 37%.

When LeBron shows up his teammates are capable of winning...

[Indian guy]

The team as a whole improved and no 66 win team is a fluke.

Cleveland did improve and was VERY good, but not 66 wins good. They won that many because LeBron had one of the all time great regular seasons, and the league had a relatively weak year GREAT TEAMS wise. There were only 4 great teams(Boston, LA, Orlando and Cleveland) all season and the BAD teams were really bad. Cleveland's wins were thus padded a little. In reality this was a 55-60 win team. LeBron and the not-so-great competition is the reason why they won as many as they did.

Also, only someone totally clueless would fault LeBron for the Cavs not making the Finals. You can't do more than 37/9/7/51%. 38/8/8/49% against Orlando.


LeBron can't even get to 10 with the Cavs despite having the ball 90% of the time.

You're again showing off how little of Cleveland you actually watched this season. LeBron was never ball dominant this season barring the ECF, and that was only due to his teammates struggling and more importantly, Cleveland's complete inability to contain Orlando. It was REQUIRED of LeBron to do a lot.


If he played on the Bulls he would average 4-5 apg.

LeBron is a more skilled passer and playmaker than Pippen. You're out of your mind if you think he'd only average 4-5 apg on those Bulls team. He would AT LEAST average as many as Pippen did.


If prime Pippen played on the 09' Cavs he would average 25 ppg, 10 assists and 9 boards.

Pippen was a system player. He would not average career highs in every category on a slow paced, poorly coached offensive team that would require him to do a lot of creating by himself. If LeBron could never come close to 10 apg on Cleveland, I don't know what makes you believe Pippen could.

[Bush4Ever]

This is the excuse LeBron fans have been using to explain away how a 66 win team lost with the great LeBron. The problem is that when top teams play top teams their winning percentage will inevitably decline. Boston went 5-7 against these teams. Does this mean Boston was a pretender? Orlando was 7-5 against these teams but that is inflated by LeBron losing twice to Orlando. Take away the Cavs and the Magic were 5-4 against the elite. Houston was 4-6 against the top teams. Only the Lakers crushed the elite teams. 4-7 is not that bad when put into context.

How much was this due to his teammates and how much was due to LeBron?

LJ vs. Boston: 28/6/6 on 48% shooting. Result: 2-2
LJ vs. Houston: 25/3/a measly 2.5 assists on 41% shooting. Result: 1-1. In the game they lost LeBron shot 33% and had ZERO assists and only one rebound.
LJ vs. LAL: 19.5/8.5/8 on 31% shooting. Result: 0-2
LJ vs. Orlando: 31/10/7 on 43% shooting. Result: 1-2. These stats are inflated by a 43/12/8/4 game he had in their win. When they lost he shot 35% and 37%.

When LeBron shows up his teammates are capable of winning...

What do you mean, "take away the Cavs"? That is the whole point.

Yes, all teams will win less against good competition than bad, but some teams will have less of a difference between handling good competition and bad competition than other teams. The Cavs to me, fall on the far end of that spectrum.

I've already said Lebron was below standards during the regular season. However, he certainly wasn't during the Orlando series (at least not offensively), and his teammates were simply overmatched, missing open shots, or mismatched at the 4 on the wings, etc...

Judging Lebron as a "choker" on that series and citing the overall team result as proof, when his teammates were clearly outmatched independent of Lebron is inappropriate.

[Fatal9]

Also, only someone totally clueless would fault LeBron for the Cavs not making the Finals. You can't do more than 37/9/7/51%.
You could do some of the following things:

- Not shoot a 40% combined in the three road games
- Not turn the ball over 7 times in 10-11 minutes of the fourth quarter and OT
- Not miss crucial FTs in multiple games
- Not shoot the lowest % ever for a 40 point game in playoff history
- Not use up 50 possessions a game
- Not go like 3-13 in the last three quarters of an elimination game
- Not let a 6'2 West cover Lewis/Hedo, who posed a mismatch for everyone but Lebron
- Not play awful help defense on Howard (which is the reason Peitrus was so open on some of his shots)
- Get your teammates involved?!?! (something Pippen never had trouble doing, even when he was playing with Horace Grant as his second best player during the MVP caliber season)

Typical stat wh*ring by you. Did you watch the games or are you going to quote a statline which is helped by absurd whistles and 1.75 good games?

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron had one of the all time great regular seasons

Except against the elite teams...If LeBron showed up when the going got tough perhaps they could have reached 70 wins.

In each season there are only a few elite teams, a handful of good teams, mostly average teams, and a handful of lousy teams. 2009 was nothing new except that it had two 65+ win teams. Kobe showed up when it counted and his team is where it is supposed to be.


You can't do more than 37/9/7/51%. 38/8/8/49% against Orlando.

One man offenses do not win championships regardless of how dominant a player is, as Wilt and Jordan proved.

Great numbers, although they are inflated due to the offense he is in. The problem? Where was he when they lost? He had a great game in their game 1 loss but was not great in the three other losses.

Game 3: 11 for 28, including 1 for 8 from 3 point land.
Game 4: 13 for 29 with eight turnovers and five fouls.
Game 6: 8 for 20.

The effort to blame his teammates for the Cav's failure to live up to expectations cannot mask the fact that LeBron played poorly in almost each one of those losses.


LeBron is a more skilled passer and playmaker than Pippen. You're out of your mind if you think he'd only average 4-5 apg on those Bulls team. He would AT LEAST average as many as Pippen did.

He averages 7.2 with Cleveland. Pippen averaged 7.0 in the triangle offense. Put prime Pippen into the Cavs' offense and he easily eclipses 7.2. Prime Pippen dished out more assists than anyone (yes, even Stockton and Magic) on the Dream Team. That is illustrative of what prime Pippen could do assist wise outside the triangle.


Pippen was a system player.

:roll:

Pippen in Doug Collin's offense (third year): 17/7/5
Pippen in Phil Jackson's offense (fourth year): 18/7/6

The increases in 1990 were due to him having more experience. Besides, even if we ignore that and pretend that it was entirely due to the triangle his numbers only improved very slightly. This is a "system player"? How about the Olympics when Chuck Daly said he was the second best player on the team after MJ? Were they running the triangle too?

Here is what a system player looks like.

Steve Nash's last season in Dallas: 15/9 47% shooting
Steve Nash's first season in Phoenix: 16/12 50% shooting


What do you mean, "take away the Cavs"? That is the whole point.

The problem is the reason they lost twice to the Magic is LeBron failed to show up against the Magic. How can this be used as an indictment against his teammates when the great LeBron was the chief reason they lost? I see a trend with LeBron, when he wins it is all him, when he loses it is always his teammates...


Yes, all teams will win less against good competition than bad, but some teams will have less of a difference between handling good competition and bad competition than other teams.

How much of a difference is there between 4-7 and 4-6, 5-7????

[97 bulls]

Except against the elite teams...If LeBron showed up when the going got tough perhaps they could have reached 70 wins.

In each season there are only a few elite teams, a handful of good teams, mostly average teams, and a handful of lousy teams. 2009 was nothing new except that it had two 65+ win teams. Kobe showed up when it counted and his team is where it is supposed to be.



One man offenses do not win championships regardless of how dominant a player is, as Wilt and Jordan proved.

Great numbers, although they are inflated due to the offense he is in. The problem? Where was he when they lost? He had a great game in their game 1 loss but was not great in the three other losses.

Game 3: 11 for 28, including 1 for 8 from 3 point land.
Game 4: 13 for 29 with eight turnovers and five fouls.
Game 6: 8 for 20.

The effort to blame his teammates for the Cav's failure to live up to expectations cannot mask the fact that LeBron played poorly in almost each one of those losses.



He averages 7.2 with Cleveland. Pippen averaged 7.0 in the triangle offense. Put prime Pippen into the Cavs' offense and he easily eclipses 7.2. Prime Pippen dished out more assists than anyone (yes, even Stockton and Magic) on the Dream Team. That is illustrative of what prime Pippen could do assist wise outside the triangle.



:roll:

Pippen in Doug Collin's offense (third year): 17/7/5
Pippen in Phil Jackson's offense (fourth year): 18/7/6

The increases in 1990 were due to him having more experience. Besides, even if we ignore that and pretend that it was entirely due to the triangle his numbers only improved very slightly. This is a "system player"? How about the Olympics when Chuck Daly said he was the second best player on the team after MJ? Were they running the triangle too?

Here is what a system player looks like.

Steve Nash's last season in Dallas: 15/9 47% shooting
Steve Nash's first season in Phoenix: 16/12 50% shooting



The problem is the reason they lost twice to the Magic is LeBron failed to show up against the Magic. How can this be used as an indictment against his teammates when the great LeBron was the chief reason they lost? I see a trend with LeBron, when he wins it is all him, when he loses it is always his teammates...



How much of a difference is there between 4-7 and 4-6, 5-7????
these are great post rock. i used to get beat up for posting things like this

[Bush4Ever]

The problem is the reason they lost twice to the Magic is LeBron failed to show up against the Magic. How can this be used as an indictment against his teammates when the great LeBron was the chief reason they lost? I see a trend with LeBron, when he wins it is all him, when he loses it is always his teammates...


I've already acknowledged Lebron was below standards, but no one else on his team performed admirably against the Magic.

Mo Williams shot 37.5 percent from the floor
Delonte West shot 40 percent from the floor
Big Z shot 36.4 percent from the floor

Then came the playoffs, with Lebron played far above standards overall, especially offensively. Meanwhile, the crux of the supporting cast maintained their lack of performance, even with Lebron playing over his head offensively.

Mo Williams shot 37.1 percent from the floor
Delonte West shot 45 percent from the floor (the only one to show up)
Big Z shot 45 percent from the floor and was flogged to death by Dwight

They got virtually nothing offensively from the collection of the "others", because Mike Brown had inconsistent patterns, leading to no one understanding their role or developing any chemistry.

Lebron was bad in the regular season, but picked it up in the playoffs. The supporting cast was terrible in the regular season, and maintained its poor standard of performance during the playoffs.

In any case, laying the blame at Lebron's feet is ridiculous. Replace Lebron with an average SF and the series is a sweep and probably a humiliating one at that. Blame Lebron for what he is responsible for (4th quarter woes and sometimes lazy defense), but leave it at that.

Anyone who can't see the grand canyon size gap between how the supporting cast of Lebron has performed and how the supporting casts of Dwight and Kobe have performed in these late rounds is being very dishonest.

[97 bulls]

I've already acknowledged Lebron was below standards, but no one else on his team performed admirably against the Magic.

Mo Williams shot 37.5 percent from the floor
Delonte West shot 40 percent from the floor
Big Z shot 36.4 percent from the floor

Then came the playoffs, with Lebron played far above standards overall, especially offensively. Meanwhile, the crux of the supporting cast maintained their lack of performance, even with Lebron playing over his head offensively.

Mo Williams shot 37.1 percent from the floor
Delonte West shot 45 percent from the floor (the only one to show up)
Big Z shot 45 percent from the floor and was flogged to death by Dwight

They got virtually nothing offensively from the collection of the "others", because Mike Brown had inconsistent patterns, leading to no one understanding their role or developing any chemistry.

Lebron was bad in the regular season, but picked it up in the playoffs. The supporting cast was terrible in the regular season, and maintained its poor standard of performance during the playoffs.

In any case, laying the blame at Lebron's feet is ridiculous. Replace Lebron with an average SF and the series is a sweep and probably a humiliating one at that. Blame Lebron for what he is responsible for (4th quarter woes and sometimes lazy defense), but leave it at that.

Anyone who can't see the grand canyon size gap between how the supporting cast of Lebron has performed and how the supporting casts of Dwight and Kobe have performed in these late rounds is being very dishonest.
what was lebrons stats against the magic?

[tedloc]

please stop talking about lebron james...

christ people, you'd think he was the hot girl at school by how much you all sweat him...

lebron is a nobody til he earns his hardware...

just like iverson, mcgrady, etc....

great players but not the greatest... not even in the discussion til he has the rings...

[Bush4Ever]

what was lebrons stats against the magic?

In the regular season? Crap.

In the playoffs? Like 39/8/8/on 49 percent shooting and getting to the line almost at will, albeit being less impressive in the losses than the wins by a non-trivial degree.

[Indian guy]

Except against the elite teams...If LeBron showed up when the going got tough perhaps they could have reached 70 wins.

FACT: Cleveland is far and away the least talented team to ever win 60+ games. Only a hater or someone very ignorant could be looking for holes in LeBron's play that regular season. Or heck, even in the postseason.


Kobe showed up when it counted and his team is where it is supposed to be.

:oldlol:. Only reason Kobe is in the Finals and LeBron isn't is because of what's AROUND them. Give LeBron Kobe's cast & coaching staff and he cruises to an NBA championship.


One man offenses do not win championships regardless of how dominant a player is, as Wilt and Jordan proved.

One man offenses are a result of poor talent and offensive coaching. LeBron's style of play & production was borne out of necessity, not because he suddenly decided "**** my teammates, I'm winning this by myself". There's simply no getting around the fact that LeBron's teammates struggled all postseason, and it wasn't because they didn't get opportunities. Cleveland's backcourt(Mo & West), chief reason for Cavs' early departure, averaged more FGA per game in the postseason than they did in the regular season. Spare me the LeBron's ball domination left his teammates cold BS. Cleveland went out of their way to get their backcourt going in the ECF. They didn't produce. Especially from the 3pt line.


He had a great game in their game 1 loss

He had one of the GREATEST games in NBA history in fact and still lost. What does that tell you about his supporting cast? That Game 1 loss ****ed up the whole series, because it's hard for a 1-man offense and a struggling defense to steal one on the road. LeBron's cast simply did not show up on either end of the court against Orlando. That's why they lost depsite LeBron putting up 38/8/8/49%.


He averages 7.2 with Cleveland. Pippen averaged 7.0 in the triangle offense.

Pippen averaged 7 assists for 1 season in his career. He never came close to that # again. LeBron has eclipsed 7 apg 3 times in 6 years. Stop pretending like Pippen's been this 7 apg man his entire career. He couldn't even average 6 apg in his career after 1993.


Put prime Pippen into the Cavs' offense and he easily eclipses 7.2.

You're talking out of your ass. Pippen was simply not the playmaker or passer that LeBron is. He was a very good passer, don't get me wrong, but a lot of his assists on the Bulls came off basic ball movement and transition situations. He was a great open court player. Those opportunities are rare on Cleveland, who mostly run a lot of high screen n roll for their ball handlers. Pippen, not being the creator LeBron is, would have a much more difficult time picking assists than LeBron currently does.


Prime Pippen dished out more assists than anyone (yes, even Stockton and Magic) on the Dream Team. That is illustrative of what prime Pippen could do assist wise outside the triangle.

No, that is illustrative of your ****ing ignorance. Pippen averaged more apg than Magic and Stockton? WELL no **** Sherlock! Stockton barely played on the Dream Team due to injury and Magic's injury severely limited his playing time too. Pippen played far more minutes than those 2, and he did it at PG.

You know what's truly impressive? LeBron being the leading assist man on the '07 and '08 US team despite NEVER playing PG.


The problem is the reason they lost twice to the Magic is LeBron failed to show up against the Magic.

Scoring 40+ points on a good TS% is not "failing" to show up". His teammates shot WORSE than him in both Games 3 & 4. And let's not even get into Cleveland's massive defensive issues. Seriously, give LeBron someone even half as effective as LA's been in guarding Howard in the Finals and we'd all be discussing Game 3 between LA and Cleveland right now. And praising LeBron for producing the greatest conference finals of ALL TIME.


I see a trend with LeBron, when he wins it is all him, when he loses it is always his teammates

It's hard to get on the case of a player who averaged 39/8/8/49%. Had LeBron's teammates not shot a putrid 41% for the series and had their bigs been half-way competent in dealing with Howard, then maybe we could hold LeBron responsible.

[Mdog1]

Current LeBron is already better than almost every single version of every player to ever play. Better than a prime bird, Magic, Russel, and Robertson. The only thing Pippen has is 6 rings in which he was much like Kobe to acheive them. LeBron has a chance to be the GOAT, Pip has a chance to be the GOAT sidekick, huge difference.

[97 bulls]

FACT: Cleveland is far and away the least talented team to ever win 60+ games. Only a hater or someone very ignorant could be looking for holes in LeBron's play that regular season. Or heck, even in the postseason.



:oldlol:. Only reason Kobe is in the Finals and LeBron isn't is because of what's AROUND them. Give LeBron Kobe's cast & coaching staff and he cruises to an NBA championship.



One man offenses are a result of poor talent and offensive coaching. LeBron's style of play & production was borne out of necessity, not because he suddenly decided "**** my teammates, I'm winning this by myself". There's simply no getting around the fact that LeBron's teammates struggled all postseason, and it wasn't because they didn't get opportunities. Cleveland's backcourt(Mo & West), chief reason for Cavs' early departure, averaged more FGA per game in the postseason than they did in the regular season. Spare me the LeBron's ball domination left his teammates cold BS. Cleveland went out of their way to get their backcourt going in the ECF. They didn't produce. Especially from the 3pt line.



He had one of the GREATEST games in NBA history in fact and still lost. What does that tell you about his supporting cast? That Game 1 loss ****ed up the whole series, because it's hard for a 1-man offense and a struggling defense to steal one on the road. LeBron's cast simply did not show up on either end of the court against Orlando. That's why they lost depsite LeBron putting up 38/8/8/49%.



Pippen averaged 7 assists for 1 season in his career. He never came close to that # again. LeBron has eclipsed 7 apg 3 times in 6 years. Stop pretending like Pippen's been this 7 apg man his entire career. He couldn't even average 6 apg in his career after 1993.



You're talking out of your ass. Pippen was simply not the playmaker or passer that LeBron is. He was a very good passer, don't get me wrong, but a lot of his assists on the Bulls came off basic ball movement and transition situations. He was a great open court player. Those opportunities are rare on Cleveland, who mostly run a lot of high screen n roll for their ball handlers. Pippen, not being the creator LeBron is, would have a much more difficult time picking assists than LeBron currently does.



No, that is illustrative of your ****ing ignorance. Pippen averaged more apg than Magic and Stockton? WELL no **** Sherlock! Stockton barely played on the Dream Team due to injury and Magic's injury severely limited his playing time too. Pippen played far more minutes than those 2, and he did it at PG.

You know what's truly impressive? LeBron being the leading assist man on the '07 and '08 US team despite NEVER playing PG.



Scoring 40+ points on a good TS% is not "failing" to show up". His teammates shot WORSE than him in both Games 3 & 4. And let's not even get into Cleveland's massive defensive issues. Seriously, give LeBron someone even half as effective as LA's been in guarding Howard in the Finals and we'd all be discussing Game 3 between LA and Cleveland right now. And praising LeBron for producing the greatest conference finals of ALL TIME.



It's hard to get on the case of a player who averaged 39/8/8/49%. Had LeBron's teammates not shot a putrid 41% for the series and had their bigs been half-way competent in dealing with Howard, then maybe we could hold LeBron responsible.
how bout this. if lebron takes some of energy and exerts it on DEFENSE and locks down either hedo or lewis the cavs probably win.

[JustinJDW]

Pippen in 93-94, without MJ : 22.0 points, 49.1 FG%, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, 0.8 blocks, 3.2 TOs.

There's no question Pippen had a better career and is above LeBron on the All-time list, but LeBron is the better player.Right on.

People need to be more clear and specific. When you say one player today is better than a past player, you need to be clear on what you mean. If you mean pure skill level, Lebron is better then Pippen. If you mean Legacy wise as in the All-Time List, Pippen is better by a mile.

Better Player/Skill Level - Lebron James
Better Career/All Time List - Scottie Pippen

[Lebron23]

Right on.

People need to be more clear and specific. When you say one player today is better than a past player, you need to be clear on what you mean. If you mean pure skill level, Lebron is better then Pippen. If you mean Legacy wise as in the All-Time List, Pippen is better by a mile.

Better Player/Skill Level - Lebron James
Better Career/All Time List - Scottie Pippen


And LeBron is going to be miles ahead of Sidekick Pippen once he win his first NBA Finals MVP Next year, and probably have the chance to win his first NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

[97 bulls]

And LeBron is going to be miles ahead of Sidekick Pippen once he win his first NBA Finals MVP Next year, and probably have the chance to win his first NBA Defensive Player of the Year.
lol you guys make it seem like it sooo easy to win a championship. theres a reason lebron stormed out of the arena when orlando beat him. he knows its not that easy.

[Lebron23]

lol you guys make it seem like it sooo easy to win a championship. theres a reason lebron stormed out of the arena when orlando beat him. he knows its not that easy.

Just give him a dominant PF, and LeBron is going to win 5 or more NBA Championships in the next decade.

You cannot win an NBA Championship when your starting PF is Anderson Varejao.

By the way I'd take the current Joachim Noah over Anderson the Flopper.

[97 bulls]

Just give him a dominant PF, and LeBron is going to win 5 or more NBA Championships in the next decade.

You cannot win an NBA Championship when your starting PF is Anderson Varejao.

By the way I'd take the current Joachim Noah over Anderson the Flopper.
lol how bout when he had boozer and a younger big Z? not saying he wont win, but its not that easy.

[Lebron23]

lol how bout when he had boozer and a younger big Z? not saying he wont win, but its not that easy.


Boozer only played one season with LeBron, and after that he signed a contract with the Utah Jazz.

Zydrunas Ilgauskas was never a dominant low-post scorer. LeBron is only 24 yrs.old I am sure he's going to win an NBA Champion in the near future.

He has a great work ethics, great leader for the Cavs, and he is still continuing to improve his perimeter game.

[Roundball_Rock]

FACT: Cleveland is far and away the least talented team to ever win 60+ games.

Lame. No team that wins 66 games is a team of scrubs. Period. LeBron failed--yet again. Accept it. Maybe he will win a ring someday.


Only reason Kobe is in the Finals and LeBron isn't is because of what's AROUND them. Give LeBron Kobe's cast & coaching staff and he cruises to an NBA championship.

LeBron=third "team leader" in NBA history to not win a ring with a 65+ win team. :oldlol: We can understand Dirk doing this but the "great", would be "GOAT" LeBron? :roll:


Scoring 40+ points on a good TS% is not "failing" to show up".

:lol of course his TS % is great--he was getting 20 FT's a game mostly on BS calls. Even when he was cleanly blocked in the closing moments of the game the refs rode to his rescue and called a phantom foul. And the "great' Lebron STILL lost! :roll:


Current LeBron is already better than almost every single version of every player to ever play. Better than a prime bird, Magic, Russel, and Robertson

Surely you jest. How many rings does the "great" Lebron have? He got swept in the NBA finals, no?


And LeBron is going to be miles ahead of Sidekick Pippen once he win his first NBA Finals MVP Next year, and probably have the chance to win his first NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

:roll: The "great" LeBron may never win a ring. He made it to the finals once and had a 4.9 PER. That is worse than the PER of benchwarmers...


Just give him a dominant PF, and LeBron is going to win 5 or more NBA Championships in the next decade.

"Just give him a dominant C, and he is going to win 5 or more NBA championships."

Sincerely,

T Mac

LeBron may be the next top 10 all-time player or he may be another in the line of "would be greats" like Penny, Grant Hill, T Mac, VC, and Iverson.

[Lebron23]

Pippen is already becoming one of the most overrated players on ISH. I love Scottie Pippen, but he was never a dominant player if you compare him to LeBron, Erving, Barry, Gervin, Wade and Kobe.

And LeBron's Sophomore Season >>>>>>>>>> Pippen's 1994 NBA Season.

[unbreakable]

I love Scottie Pippen, but he was never a dominant player if you compare him to LeBron, Erving, Barry, Gervin, Wade and Kobe.

.

:roll:

Pippen dominated on both sides of the floor.. or do you not pay attention to defense, amatuer?

[Abraham Lincoln]

:roll:

Pippen dominated on both sides of the floor.. or do you not pay attention to defense, amatuer? Who be the better player. LeBron or Pippen?

[unbreakable]

Who be the better player. LeBron or Pippen?

Thats a good question.

[jrong]

Current LeBron is already better than almost every single version of every player to ever play. Better than a prime bird, Magic, Russel, and Robertson.

Ok, you just took this thread to a silly place. Mdog, sometimes I wonder about you. Because at times you seem like a rational poster. Then, at times, you make posts like, well, this.

So, just out of curiosity do you have a ten year old son who sometimes posts under your username, and this and some of the other ridiculous statements that have come from this screen-name are actually being written by him?

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll:

Pippen dominated on both sides of the floor.. or do you not pay attention to defense, amatuer?

This is the second ISH poster who has claimed Pip was not dominant. Ok. In that corner you have two ISH posters. In this corner, NBA legend Reggie Miller:


PHOENIX -- I walked up to each one of them and asked the question.

If you could be any other player here who would it be?

It was a question I'd asked 12 years ago to Dream Team III: Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Shaq.

Their answers lent insight into which players they respected, whose game they feared. Back then Scottie Pippen's name came up the most. Five out of the 12 players on that team wanted to be, even if for one game, Jordan's Green Hornet. When asked, "Why Pip?" it was Miller who explained it best: "Because Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game."


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/090216

[Indian guy]

Lame. No team that wins 66 games is a team of scrubs. Period.

Way to run away from the argument. Typical of you. Calling Cleveland the LEAST talented team to ever win 60+ games doesn't mean they're packed with scrubs. It means they're the least talented team EVER to win that many games. It means they OVERACHIEVED and thus could lose a series despite LeBron putting up 39/8/8/49%.

Do you agree or not that Cleveland is the least talented team ever to win 60+ games?


:lol of course his TS % is great--he was getting 20 FT's a game mostly on BS calls.

Mostly? :oldlol:. All these games or on the net. Find me 5 BS calls LeBron got. Go ahead. I highly doubt you even watched much of the ECF. Pretty much everything that comes out your mouth is off the stat sheet.


Even when he was cleanly blocked in the closing moments of the game the refs rode to his rescue and called a phantom foul. And the "great' Lebron STILL lost! :roll:

Yeah, one call, great going :rolleyes:. And the game was already in the bag when they made that call. So I don't know what you meant by the "LeBron still lost" comment. You obviously didn't watch the game(surprise surprise).

[Lebron23]

:roll:

Pippen dominated on both sides of the floor.. or do you not pay attention to defense, amatuer?


LeBron was also a Defensive Player Candidate this year, and the 3rd player in NBA History to averaged 30 points, 8 rebounds, and 7 assists in the NBA.

Pippen was a great sidekick of Michael Jordan, but he was never a better playoffs performer than LeBron James.

I doubt Pippen would win an NBA Championship ring if the Bulls never drafted him in 1987.

[AirJordan23]

This is the second ISH poster who has claimed Pip was not dominant. Ok. In that corner you have two ISH posters. In this corner, NBA legend Reggie Miller:



http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/090216
Pip was dominant but not LeBron dominant. He used to dominate games defensively and is arguably the GOAT perimeter defender however he was never an elite offensive player. And by elite I mean in the LeBron, Kobe, Bird, Jordan etc category. He had some weaknesses in his offensive game like creating his own shot, inconsistent J and lack of clutchness (if that's a word). Pip was great and one of the players who could have a brilliant game despite have a poor shooting night but he wasn't the player you make him out to be.

Oh yeah and I love the double standard. Telling us to look beyond the statsheet when you're being a typical "Mr. Boxscore" in LeBron's case. There are too many variables to take into account such as LeBron's teammates not hitting their shots, Cavs having a poor offensive coach etc.

[chitownsfinest]

I can the reasoning with Pippen dominating the defensive end of the floor (he did) but the offensive end? Really? He was a really good player on the offensive end but lets keep in mind the people who we consider dominant on the offensive end of the floor:
MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Wilt, Hakeem, Kareem (in his prime), etc.

[D-Rose]

LeBron was also a Defensive Player Candidate this year, and the 3rd player in NBA History to averaged 29 points, 8 rebounds, and 7 assists in the NBA.

Pippen was a great sidekick of Michael Jordan, but he was never a better playoffs performer than LeBron James.

I doubt Pippen would win an NBA Championship ring if the Bulls never drafted him in 1987.

Seattle drafted him. And if he stayed with Seattle, he'd have won a title with Payton/Kemp/Schrempf.

[Lebron23]

Pip was dominant but not LeBron dominant. He used to dominate games defensively and is arguably the GOAT perimeter defender however he was never an elite offensive player. And by elite I mean in the LeBron, Kobe, Bird, Jordan etc category. He had some weaknesses in his offensive game like creating his own shot, inconsistent J and lack of clutchness (if that's a word). Pip was great and one of the players who could have a brilliant game despite have a poor shooting night but he wasn't the player you make him out to be.

Oh yeah and I love the double standard. Telling us to look beyond the statsheet when you're being a typical "Mr. Boxscore" in LeBron's case. There are too many variables to take into account such as LeBron's teammates not hitting their shots, Cavs having a poor offensive coach etc.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[chitownsfinest]

Seattle drafted him. And if he stayed with Seattle, he'd have won a title with Payton/Kemp/Schrempf.
Shawn Kemp and GP were both drafted after Pip. Kemp was drafted in 89 with the 17th pick and GP in 1990 with the second pick. Obviously Pip there would have meant more wins, therefore meaning higher position in the drafts. Their pick might have been too high to get Kemp in 89 and they almost certainly would not have sucked hard enough to get the second pick. Therefore, maybe no Kemp and no GP.

[Roundball_Rock]

Do you agree or not that Cleveland is the least talented team ever to win 60+ games?

So the numerous 60-61 win teams in history>a 66 win team? :oldlol:


Find me 5 BS calls LeBron got. Go ahead. I highly doubt you even watched much of the ECF.

So you think he got 14.2 FTA legitimately? Wasn't that a record or close to it? LeBron's career high was 10.3 in 2006 and 2008 yet he suddenly shoots up to 14.2 in the playoffs? In the ECF he averaged 16 FTA and STILL lost...


LeBron was also a Defensive Player Candidate this year

:oldlol: We know that was BS due to marketing hype around the league's shining star. LeBron did not even deserve to make the all-defensive first team.

Pippen played on three 65+ win teams and brought home the title each time! :rockon:

No one said Pippen dominated on offense on a regular basis. He was a guy who in his prime would dominate on defense, score 20 points, grab 9 boards, and serve as a floor general.


And if he stayed with Seattle, he'd have won a title with Payton/Kemp/Schrempf.

I agree that he would have won at least one ring in Seattle. As chitown said, with Pippen there they would win more and their draft positions would change but it is very unlikely that Pippen would never win a championship if he remained in Seattle. They acquired Schrempf, Hersey Hawkins, and Sam Perkins outside the draft for their 96' team. Add Pippen to that, probably subtract Payton because they would not have the #2 pick in 1990 with Pippen, but all they would need is one more piece of the puzzle. Is it unreasonable to assume the Sonics would not have acquired a quality big man like Kemp during that period, if not Kemp himself (i.e. trade up for him. Kemp was the 17th pick so he was not exactly a hot commodity for most teams so a trade would definitely have been possible.)? Add Pippen to the Schrempf/Hawkins/Perkins/Kemp or other big man to Seattle and subtract Pippen from Chicago and the Sonics beat the Bulls in 1996...

[Indian guy]

So the numerous 60-61 win teams in history>a 66 win team? :oldlol:

You're again running from answering the question. Is Cleveland the least talented team to win 60+ games or not?


So you think he got 14.2 FTA legitimately?

Hell Yeah. 90%+ of his free throws in the ECF were earned. You're the one who doesn't think they were legit, so go ahead and back up your talk. Find me these many "phantom" calls that LeBron got.


In the ECF he averaged 16 FTA and STILL lost...

Yep, still lost. A testament to how badly his teammates sucked on both ends of the floor. Thank You for proving my point.

[Dave3]

So the numerous 60-61 win teams in history>a 66 win team? :oldlol:



So you think he got 14.2 FTA legitimately? Wasn't that a record or close to it? LeBron's career high was 10.3 in 2006 and 2008 yet he suddenly shoots up to 14.2 in the playoffs? In the ECF he averaged 16 FTA and STILL lost...



:oldlol: We know that was BS due to marketing hype around the league's shining star. LeBron did not even deserve to make the all-defensive first team.

Pippen played on three 65+ win teams and brought home the title each time! :rockon:

No one said Pippen dominated on offense on a regular basis. He was a guy who in his prime would dominate on defense, score 20 points, grab 9 boards, and serve as a floor general.



I agree that he would have won at least one ring in Seattle. As chitown said, with Pippen there they would win more and their draft positions would change but it is very unlikely that Pippen would never win a championship if he remained in Seattle. They acquired Schrempf, Hersey Hawkins, and Sam Perkins outside the draft for their 96' team. Add Pippen to that, probably subtract Payton because they would not have the #2 pick in 1990 with Pippen, but all they would need is one more piece of the puzzle. Is it unreasonable to assume the Sonics would not have acquired a quality big man like Kemp during that period, if not Kemp himself (i.e. trade up for him. Kemp was the 17th pick so he was not exactly a hot commodity for most teams so a trade would definitely have been possible.)? Add Pippen to the Schrempf/Hawkins/Perkins/Kemp or other big man to Seattle and subtract Pippen from Chicago and the Sonics beat the Bulls in 1996...
Wow. You're finding ways to avoid answering any questions at all. Instead of finding ways around the answers, why don't you just answer them? Or is it because he's made points you have no answer for?

[Glide2keva]

Let's just end all threads of these types and just say that all the players of today are better than any player of any era, so the little kids that never saw any of the greats play can feel good about themselves.

It doesn't have to be true, because it isn't.

But we can let them have their fun.

So, Kobe is better than Jordan, Lebron is better than Pippen, rinse and repeat.

Of course everything I just said is complete cow droppings.

[97 bulls]

You're again running from answering the question. Is Cleveland the least talented team to win 60+ games or not?



Hell Yeah. 90%+ of his free throws in the ECF were earned. You're the one who doesn't think they were legit, so go ahead and back up your talk. Find me these many "phantom" calls that LeBron got.



Yep, still lost. A testament to how badly his teammates sucked on both ends of the floor. Thank You for proving my point.
i would like to take a stab at the cavs 60 win season. the fact is that they were the best team in the east this year and ran into a hot shooting orlando team. but lets look at how the cavs team ranks by position this year. not against the 90s teams or 80s teams against the teams they played

pg mo williams arguably top 5 in the league
sg delonte west solid at 12 ppg and 45% shooting
c big Z hes stil arguably the 7th best center in the league
sf best player in the league in lebron
pf anderson varajeo

bench
gibson
smith
wallace
pavlovic

a very solid bench

i believe that while bron had a great offensive performance the defense is what killed him and his team and he just as much at fault as any body else on that team. whats worse is that they were playing howard straight up and still allowed the magic shooters to go off.

[Fatal9]

Hey Indian_Guy, be careful what you wish for. I have the games on my computer and can easily find you 5+ BS calls Lebron got and 5+ BS fouls on Howard. Do I want to spend time on this though...?

:oldlol: at this guy trying to pretend Lebron had a great series when he is really to blame for three of the losses. And nearly choked away game 2 as well (1-5, 3 TOs in last 7-8 minutes of fourth) before that shot. He played well for 1 game, 1 half (game 2) and 1 quarter (game 5).

[Roundball_Rock]

You're again running from answering the question. Is Cleveland the least talented team to win 60+ games or not?

Obviously not and that was implied in my previous post. Only those who buy into the Paul Bunyan myth that LeBron won 66 games with scrubs, even though that team was significantly better in opponent ppg allowed, #1 in opponent FG $, and #3 in defensive rating believe think this 66 win team was worse than the numerous 60-62 win teams of the past.

They lost in part due to his teammates and in part because LeBron happened to not to perform in three of their four losses. LeBron cannot be absolved of his role, especially since he is the alleged future GOAT. Great hype means great expecations.

Oh, and Pippen never lost with HCA...

[Indian guy]

Obviously not and that was implied in my previous post.

Which team had less talent then?


Only those who buy into the Paul Bunyan myth that LeBron won 66 games with scrubs

Nobody's implying that LeBron played with scrubs. LeBron had a solid cast, just not the cast a 60-65 win team has.


They lost in part due to his teammates and in part because LeBron happened to not to perform in three of their four losses.

In part? :oldlol:. Come on, you're better than that. LeBron's cast shooting 41% to his 49% and the big men's inability to defend Howard takes the MAJORITY of the blame(90%) for the loss.


Oh, and Pippen never lost with HCA...

Which could've been semi-relevant if LeBron wasn't far better than him.

[97 bulls]

Which team had less talent then?



Nobody's implying that LeBron played with scrubs. LeBron had a solid cast, just not the cast a 60-65 win team has.



In part? :oldlol:. Come on, you're better than that. LeBron's cast shooting 41% to his 49% and the big men's inability to defend Howard takes the MAJORITY of the blame(90%) for the loss.



Which could've been semi-relevant if LeBron wasn't far better than him.
i think that orlandos strategy against clevland was to let bron get his and shut down everybody else. thats a big reason for what happened to the cavs.

[97 bulls]

and if bron and the cavs dug in and played some defense they may be in the championship right now.

[Da_Realist]

True--except that he choked when it counted most in the 2007 finals...

He has not had teams equal to those that those other players had but it is a myth that he has always played on bad teams. He beat the Pistons in the ECF and this year had a 66 win team. The 09' Cavs were not great on offense outside of LeBron but they were great on defense. They were 1st in opponent ppg, 1st in opponent FG % and 3rd in defensive rating. Only three teams have ever won 65+ games and then failed to win a championship...

That is what I think. He will have PER and stats as good as anyone in history in this offense but he will never win a championship this way.

Here is what an NBA legend had to say when someone dominates the ball so much:

And LeBron dominates the ball even more than Player X ever did because LeBron is not only the team's leading scorer but their point forward. Look at his stats in the ECF.

FGA by game: 30, 23, 28, 29, 24, 20
FTA by game: 10, 12, 24, 18, 19, 11
Total shots by game: 40, 35, 52, 47, 43, 31

How can a team like this win?

Plus Pippen never benefited from the "favorable" calls LeBron gets. LeBron averaged 16 FTA during the ECF and went to the line even when he was cleanly blocked. :oldlol:

He made legit points. People talk about LeBron's greatness and how he has a chance to become the GOAT and this means his record will be heavily scrutinized. If he is going to join the top tier of all-time players he needs to beat real teams in the playoffs a few times and erase memories of the 07' finals and losing with this 66 win team this year. Fortunately for him he has time to do this.

I think Pippen is a better, more polished all around player than Lebron is right now, but I find your criticism of him to be a little hypocritical. You criticize his failure as a young player leading his team to the Finals, but you fail to mention what Pippen was doing in his early years. You talk about his failure as a team leader, you mock his team's loss when they won 66 games and you bring up his playoff failures but you don't mention that Pippen has a checkered history himself.

It's no secret that the Pistons punked Pippen throughout the 89 and 90 Playoffs. It was their strategy.

Isiah Thomas -- "...however the
way we tried to attack [the Bulls], was to break down everyone else mentally, to break down [MJ's] supporting parts to more or less leave him standing there alone".

Here (at the 38 second mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0#t=0m38s)). When you watch the clip, whose the player the camera zooms in on when Isiah is talking? It's well known the Pistons targeted Scottie because they thought he was soft. And he was. That's why the Knicks made him their target as well in 92 and 93. Jeff Van Gundy admitted it in his interview on Bill Simmons podcast. That's 5 straight years the Bulls best opponent thought the best way to beat the Bulls was to attack Pippen. Has this ever happened to Lebron? How many other top 50 players have been punked as much as Pippen was early on in his career?

There were other moments. I remember Scottie pouting in Game 4 of the 92 ECSF vs Cleveland. He didn't want to shoot and I don't think he scored a point the whole second half. Chicago ended up losing this game. Where was the leadership? Maybe Chicago wins if he shows up. Even Phil Jackson criticized him for it. Even when he was at his best, he made some critical errors in judgment. What about the sit-down incident in Game 3 of the 94 ECSF vs New York? That was a total distraction and by the way, what does that say about Pippen's scoring prowess that PJ chose to run the play for Toni Kukoc with the game on the line? It was a big shot for Kukoc to hit despite the hoopla surrounding it. What happens if he misses and New York takes it in overtime? Imagine if Lebron did that. You always bring up the phantom foul vs Chicago in Game 5, but what happened in Game 6? He shot 31%. Game 7? He shot 36%. I know he added more value than just his shooting percentage, but so did Lebron yet you are riding him for it. What about the gun incident in 95?

And didn't he get pulled over for a DWI in Houston? What about publicly blasting his teammate (Barkley) by calling him a fat loser while they were still on the same team? And then he pulled a bitchmove when he brought MJ in it by saying MJ agreed with him. Not only was it poor leadership and bad judgment, but it could have altered the friendship between MJ and Barkley. Again...where's the leadership? Has Lebron done any of this?

As I mentioned before, most of the other legendary players did award-worthy damage while their superstar teammate was still on the floor. You keep forcing 94/95 down our throats, but Scottie had plenty of opportunities to carve out his legacy while MJ was still playing. Let's look at the 4th quarter of game 6 of the 93 Finals vs Phoenix. Chicago was visibly nervous and most of the team couldn't settle down. They couldn't buy a basket and at one point turned the ball over 3 straight times. Here was an opportunity for Pippen to jump out of MJ's shadow, but what happened? Chicago scored 12 points that quarter -- MJ scored the first 9. MJ was the only guy to stand up on the road that night when his team was wilting. Missed opportunity for Pippen.

1996. Jordan is having the worst Finals performance of his career. He ends it shooting only 41% from the field. This is easily Pippen's greatest opportunity to win a Finals MVP award. Surely, the #1 option-but-masquerading-as-a-#2 would find a way to lift the Bulls while Jordan struggled with his shot. Finally nab a piece of hardware to prove he was more than just Jordan's sidekick, right? Nope. Pippen shot 34% for the whole series. Isn't this exactly what you're criticizing Lebron for?

Game 5, 1997 NBA Finals. Jordan's sick game. Have you ever wondered why he had to have this masterful performance in the first place? We heard the stories of the vomiting, the IV's, the extreme fatigue... Seems to me this was the perfect opportunity for Pippen to pick MJ up and tell him "I got this". Oh he picked him up alright...after MJ scored 38 and the winning bucket. Pippen was busy scoring 17 pts on 29% from the field. This was a golden opportunity for Pippen to establish himself, but again he let sick-as-a-dog MJ handle it.

Speaking of the sick game...ever notice what Bill Walton said during the replay of MJ's game-winning shot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVK1kgrK9bs#t=9m51s)?

Bill Walton -- "[The Bulls] post up Scottie and then, for no reason, [the Jazz] double-team Scottie down low and leave Michael Jordan [open]."

Why would he criticize the Jazz strategy here if Pippen was such a prolific scorer? Especially since MJ was visibly wheezing at this point?

What about after MJ left? Let's look at the 2000 WCF Portland vs LA Lakers. How did the Blazers lose a 15 point 4th quarter lead with the 6 time champion, would-have-won-multiple-championships-as-the-#1-guy-if-MJ didn't-hold-him-back Scottie Pippen on the floor? Here was the most golden of golden opportunites to not only step out of MJ's shadow but snuff out a dynasty before it even got started. What does Pippen do? 12 points on 30% shooting and he was virtually invisible in that infamous 4th quarter. Pippen played the background. Again.

Pippen was a great, great player and I think the perfect compliment to Jordan but your making what you think are too-subtle-to-detect comments meant to chip away at Jordan in the guise of complimenting Pippen is way off base.

You're teeing off on Jordan and Lebron when there is PLENTY to criticize Pippen for -- playing with and without Jordan.

[Lebron23]

I think Pippen is a better, more polished all around player than Lebron is right now, but I find your criticism of him to be a little hypocritical. You criticize his failure as a young player leading his team to the Finals, but you fail to mention what Pippen was doing in his early years. You talk about his failure as a team leader, you mock his team's loss when they won 66 games and you bring up his playoff failures but you don't mention that Pippen has a checkered history himself.

It's no secret that the Pistons punked Pippen throughout the 89 and 90 Playoffs. It was their strategy.

Isiah Thomas -- "...however the
way we tried to attack (the Bulls), was to break down everyone else mentally, to break down (MJ's) supporting parts to more or less leave him standing there alone".

Here (at the 38 second mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0#t=0m38s)). When you watch the clip, whose the player the camera zooms in on when Isiah is talking? It's well known the Pistons targeted Scottie because they thought he was soft. And he was. That's why the Knicks made him their target as well in 92 and 93. Jeff Van Gundy admitted it in his interview on Bill Simmons podcast. That's 4 straight years the Bulls best opponent thought the best way to beat the Bulls was to attack Pippen. Has this ever happened to Lebron? How many other top 50 players have been punked as much as Pippen was early on in his career?

There were other moments. I remember Scottie pouting in Game 4 of the 92 ECSF vs Cleveland. He didn't want to shoot and I don't think he scored a point the whole second half. Chicago ended up losing this game. Where was the leadership? Maybe Chicago wins if he shows up. Even Phil Jackson criticized him for it. Even when he was at his best, he made some critical errors in judgment. What about the sit-down incident in Game 3 of the 94 ECSF vs New York? That was a total distraction and by the way, what does that say about Pippen's scoring prowess that PJ chose to run the play for Toni Kukoc with the game on the line? It was a big shot for Kukoc to hit despite the hoopla surrounding it. What happens if he misses and New York takes it in overtime? Imagine if Lebron did that. You always bring up the phantom foul vs Chicago in Game 5, but what happened in Game 6? He shot 31%. Game 7? He shot 36%. I know he added more value than just his shooting percentage, but so did Lebron yet you are riding him for it. What about the gun incident in 95?

And didn't he get pulled over for a DWI in Houston? What about publicly blasting his teammate (Barkley) by calling him a fat loser while they were still on the same team? And then he pulled a bitchmove when he brought MJ in it by saying MJ agreed with him. Not only was it poor leadership and bad judgment, but it could have altered the friendship between MJ and Barkley. Again...where's the leadership? Has Lebron done any of this?

As I mentioned before, most of the other legendary players did award-worthy damage while their superstar teammate was still on the floor. You keep forcing 94/95 down our throats, but Scottie had plenty of opportunities to carve out his legacy while MJ was still playing. Let's look at the 4th quarter of game 6 of the 93 Finals vs Phoenix. Chicago was visibly nervous and most of the team couldn't settle down. They couldn't buy a basket and at one point turned the ball over 3 straight times. Here was an opportunity for Pippen to jump out of MJ's shadow, but what happened? Chicago scored 12 points that quarter -- MJ scored the first 9. MJ was the only guy to stand up on the road that night when his team was wilting. Missed opportunity for Pippen.

1996. Jordan is having the worst Finals performance of his career. He ends it shooting only 41% from the field. This is easily Pippen's greatest opportunity to win a Finals MVP award. Surely, the #1 option-but-masquerading-as-a-#2 would find a way to lift the Bulls while Jordan struggled with his shot. Finally nab a piece of hardware to prove he was more than just Jordan's sidekick, right? Nope. Pippen shot 34% for the whole series. Isn't this exactly what you're criticizing Lebron for?

Game 5, 1997 NBA Finals. Jordan's sick game. Have you ever wondered why he had to have this masterful performance in the first place? We heard the stories of the vomiting, the IV's, the extreme fatigue... Seems to me this was the perfect opportunity for Pippen to pick MJ up and tell him "I got this". Oh he picked him up alright...after MJ scored 38 and the winning bucket. Pippen was busy scoring 17 pts on 29% from the field. This was a golden opportunity for Pippen to establish himself, but again he let sick-as-a-dog MJ handle it.

Speaking of the sick game...ever notice what Bill Walton said during the replay of MJ's game-winning shot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVK1kgrK9bs#t=9m51s)?

Bill Walton -- "[The Bulls] post up Scottie and then, for no reason, [the Jazz] double-team Scottie down low and leave Michael Jordan [open].

Why would he criticize the Jazz strategy here if Pippen was such a prolific scorer? Especially since MJ was visibly wheezing at this point?

What about after MJ left? Let's look at the 2000 WCF Portland vs LA Lakers. How did the Blazers lose a 15 point 4th quarter lead with the 6 time champion, would-have-won-multiple-championships-as-the-#1-guy-if-MJ didn't-hold-him-back Scottie Pippen on the floor? Here was the most golden of golden opportunites to not only step out of MJ's shadow but snuff out a dynasty before it even got started. What does Pippen do? 12 points on 30% shooting and he was virtually invisible in that infamous 4th quarter. Pippen played the background. Again.

Pippen was a great, great player and I think the perfect compliment to Jordan but your making what you think are too-subtle-to-detect comments meant to chip away at Jordan in the guise of complimenting Pippen is way off base.

You're teeing off on Jordan and Lebron when there is PLENTY to criticize Pippen for -- playing with and without Jordan.


That was a very informative posts, and you literally owned Rockball_Around aka Fatal9.

Repped

[lilgodfather1]

LeBron has at a statistical level been better than Pippen almost his entire career. On a complete player basis LeBron is clearly the better player, he is better than most to ever play the game. He is already the best SF to ever play the game (note best not greatest). LeBron James is on path to be the greatest player ever, while Pippen was only good enough to be a sidekick. I guess the best way to put this in perspective for the stupid people who actually might think that Pippen is any where near LBJ is that LeBron is a solid Pippen away from multiple championships, while Pippen needed a LeBron.

[97 bulls]

I think Pippen is a better, more polished all around player than Lebron is right now, but I find your criticism of him to be a little hypocritical. You criticize his failure as a young player leading his team to the Finals, but you fail to mention what Pippen was doing in his early years. You talk about his failure as a team leader, you mock his team's loss when they won 66 games and you bring up his playoff failures but you don't mention that Pippen has a checkered history himself.

It's no secret that the Pistons punked Pippen throughout the 89 and 90 Playoffs. It was their strategy.

Isiah Thomas -- "...however the
way we tried to attack (the Bulls), was to break down everyone else mentally, to break down (MJ's) supporting parts to more or less leave him standing there alone".

Here (at the 38 second mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0#t=0m38s)). When you watch the clip, whose the player the camera zooms in on when Isiah is talking? It's well known the Pistons targeted Scottie because they thought he was soft. And he was. That's why the Knicks made him their target as well in 92 and 93. Jeff Van Gundy admitted it in his interview on Bill Simmons podcast. That's 4 straight years the Bulls best opponent thought the best way to beat the Bulls was to attack Pippen. Has this ever happened to Lebron? How many other top 50 players have been punked as much as Pippen was early on in his career?

There were other moments. I remember Scottie pouting in Game 4 of the 92 ECSF vs Cleveland. He didn't want to shoot and I don't think he scored a point the whole second half. Chicago ended up losing this game. Where was the leadership? Maybe Chicago wins if he shows up. Even Phil Jackson criticized him for it. Even when he was at his best, he made some critical errors in judgment. What about the sit-down incident in Game 3 of the 94 ECSF vs New York? That was a total distraction and by the way, what does that say about Pippen's scoring prowess that PJ chose to run the play for Toni Kukoc with the game on the line? It was a big shot for Kukoc to hit despite the hoopla surrounding it. What happens if he misses and New York takes it in overtime? Imagine if Lebron did that. You always bring up the phantom foul vs Chicago in Game 5, but what happened in Game 6? He shot 31%. Game 7? He shot 36%. I know he added more value than just his shooting percentage, but so did Lebron yet you are riding him for it. What about the gun incident in 95?

And didn't he get pulled over for a DWI in Houston? What about publicly blasting his teammate (Barkley) by calling him a fat loser while they were still on the same team? And then he pulled a bitchmove when he brought MJ in it by saying MJ agreed with him. Not only was it poor leadership and bad judgment, but it could have altered the friendship between MJ and Barkley. Again...where's the leadership? Has Lebron done any of this?

As I mentioned before, most of the other legendary players did award-worthy damage while their superstar teammate was still on the floor. You keep forcing 94/95 down our throats, but Scottie had plenty of opportunities to carve out his legacy while MJ was still playing. Let's look at the 4th quarter of game 6 of the 93 Finals vs Phoenix. Chicago was visibly nervous and most of the team couldn't settle down. They couldn't buy a basket and at one point turned the ball over 3 straight times. Here was an opportunity for Pippen to jump out of MJ's shadow, but what happened? Chicago scored 12 points that quarter -- MJ scored the first 9. MJ was the only guy to stand up on the road that night when his team was wilting. Missed opportunity for Pippen.

1996. Jordan is having the worst Finals performance of his career. He ends it shooting only 41% from the field. This is easily Pippen's greatest opportunity to win a Finals MVP award. Surely, the #1 option-but-masquerading-as-a-#2 would find a way to lift the Bulls while Jordan struggled with his shot. Finally nab a piece of hardware to prove he was more than just Jordan's sidekick, right? Nope. Pippen shot 34% for the whole series. Isn't this exactly what you're criticizing Lebron for?

Game 5, 1997 NBA Finals. Jordan's sick game. Have you ever wondered why he had to have this masterful performance in the first place? We heard the stories of the vomiting, the IV's, the extreme fatigue... Seems to me this was the perfect opportunity for Pippen to pick MJ up and tell him "I got this". Oh he picked him up alright...after MJ scored 38 and the winning bucket. Pippen was busy scoring 17 pts on 29% from the field. This was a golden opportunity for Pippen to establish himself, but again he let sick-as-a-dog MJ handle it.

Speaking of the sick game...ever notice what Bill Walton said during the replay of MJ's game-winning shot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVK1kgrK9bs#t=9m51s)?

Bill Walton -- "[The Bulls] post up Scottie and then, for no reason, [the Jazz] double-team Scottie down low and leave Michael Jordan [open].

Why would he criticize the Jazz strategy here if Pippen was such a prolific scorer? Especially since MJ was visibly wheezing at this point?

What about after MJ left? Let's look at the 2000 WCF Portland vs LA Lakers. How did the Blazers lose a 15 point 4th quarter lead with the 6 time champion, would-have-won-multiple-championships-as-the-#1-guy-if-MJ didn't-hold-him-back Scottie Pippen on the floor? Here was the most golden of golden opportunites to not only step out of MJ's shadow but snuff out a dynasty before it even got started. What does Pippen do? 12 points on 30% shooting and he was virtually invisible in that infamous 4th quarter. Pippen played the background. Again.

Pippen was a great, great player and I think the perfect compliment to Jordan but your making what you think are too-subtle-to-detect comments meant to chip away at Jordan in the guise of complimenting Pippen is way off base.

You're teeing off on Jordan and Lebron when there is PLENTY to criticize Pippen for -- playing with and without Jordan.
this entire post is a joke. in a very short few years lebron james has cussed out his mother, put a game above the birth of his child and ran out on his team. so please lets just stick to the court. from 96 to 98 ALL THE BULLS all the bulls shot a terrible percentage (including jordan). it was the era not them. and pip has contributed alot in the bulls run to six rings. theyve been said before and i believe you know them.

why dont you man up and say you dont want any of the bulls getting credit.

and let me ask you a question, whos better between jordan and wilt? and why do you answer? and keep it simple

[Da_Realist]

this entire post is a joke. in a very short few years lebron james has cussed out his mother, put a game above the birth of his child and ran out on his team. so please lets just stick to the court. from 96 to 98 ALL THE BULLS all the bulls shot a terrible percentage (including jordan). it was the era not them. and pip has contributed alot in the bulls run to six rings. theyve been said before and i believe you know them.

why dont you man up and say you dont want any of the bulls getting credit.

It's not like that. I'm not denying Lebron has had his problems nor do I deny Pippen's influence and much needed presence on those Bulls championship teams. However, it's unfair to hold Lebron to a different standard than you do Pippen. It's easy to criticize Lebron because, as the clear #1 option, everything he does is analyzed. If he shoots 38% in the Finals, everyone knows it. If his team loses despite having homecourt advantage, everyone knows it.

Pippen's career has never faced that kind of scrutiny because he didn't get the attention most #1's get. Sure...he didn't get as much credit as he deserved, but he also didn't get scrutinized as much. No one talks about Pippen shooting 34% in the 96 Finals because everyone was too busy talking about Jordan's poor shooting performance. Everyone was too busy marveling at Jordan's sick game performance to notice Pippen's 5-17 effort. So it's a catch-22. If you want him to be regarded as comparable to the elite players of the game (and clear #1 options) then his career will have to be scrutinized just as much.


and let me ask you a question, whos better between jordan and wilt? and why do you answer? and keep it simple

:confusedshrug: I try not to judge players that I never saw play.

[97 bulls]

It's not like that. I'm not denying Lebron has had his problems nor do I deny Pippen's influence and much needed presence on those Bulls championship teams. However, it's unfair to hold Lebron to a different standard than you do Pippen. It's easy to criticize Lebron because, as the clear #1 option, everything he does is analyzed. If he shoots 38% in the Finals, everyone knows it. If his team loses despite having homecourt advantage, everyone knows it.

Pippen's career has never faced that kind of scrutiny because he didn't get the attention most #1's get. Sure...he didn't get as much credit as he deserved, but he also didn't get scrutinized as much. No one talks about Pippen shooting 34% in the 96 Finals because everyone was too busy talking about Jordan's poor shooting performance. Everyone was too busy marveling at Jordan's sick game performance to notice Pippen's 5-17 effort. So it's a catch-22. If you want him to be regarded as comparable to the elite players of the game (and clear #1 options) then his career will have to be scrutinized just as much.



:confusedshrug: I try not to judge players that I never saw play.
fine scrutinize away. but like i said in a previous post from 95-98 all the bulls and the opponants shot a low %. it was the nature of the game. not to mention pip had a bad back (which started the downfall of his career) in 97 remember him landing on his back on the dunk that put the bullets out? he had problems too. it was a gutsy playoff performance for scottie. and truth be told ive played basketball sick (maybe not jordan sick) before and ive had a strained back. i could barely walk with the back problem. ill take a cold over playing with an injured back any day.

[cured]

Offensively, there's no question LeBron is better than Pippen ever was. Defensively, there's no question Pippen was better than LeBron ever will be.

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron's cast shooting 41% to his 49% and the big men's inability to defend Howard takes the MAJORITY of the blame(90%) for the loss.

LeBron shot poorly in three of their four losses and in one gave had 8 turnovers and 5 fouls. LeBron cannot be completely absolved of responsibility.


You criticize his failure as a young player leading his team to the Finals, but you fail to mention what Pippen was doing in his early years.

LeBron is in his 6th season. He has already been to the NBA finals and had another team which had the best record in the league. Moreover, this guy is the alleged future GOAT so he warrants greater scrutiny than anyone else in the game. Where are the results? He was in the finals against a superior team but he had one of the worst finals appearances ever.

After 6 seasons Scottie Pippen was a 3x champ and had 5 conference finals appearances...


hat's why the Knicks made him their target as well in 92 and 93.

How did that work out for the Knicks in 93', when Pippen was the MVP of the ECF? :oldlol:

As to specific games, you do make valid points but you can cherry pick with any player (even the GOAT...). There are several instances of Pippen rising to the occasion, most notably the 93' ECF. Also, it was Pippen who led the legendary 15 point comeback in game 6 against Portland when he was playing with a bunch of bench scrubs and MJ was resting on the bench. If the Bulls lose that game who knows what would have happened in game 7. The Bulls were a better team but you never know what can happen in a single game.


Bill Walton -- "[The Bulls] post up Scottie and then, for no reason, [the Jazz] double-team Scottie down low and leave Michael Jordan [open]."

Why would he criticize the Jazz strategy here if Pippen was such a prolific scorer?

He was averaging 20 ppg entering that game, despite being the #2 option. He did particularly well against the much shorter Hornacek. What was Walton's strategy? Let the 6'7" Pippen post up Hornacek one on one? :oldlol:
Add that pass to the list of times of Pippen coming through when it counted most (Pip also had 10 boards for a double double that game).

Pippen was 34 in Portland and his body was battered by years of injuries. Do you think Portland loses that series with prime Pippen???? Also, note that the 2000 Blazers came closest to beating that Shaq/Kobe dynasty during the three peat years.


I think the perfect compliment to Jordan but your making what you think are too-subtle-to-detect comments meant to chip away at Jordan in the guise of complimenting Pippen is way off base.

Why? Why would I want to chip away at MJ? Pippen is my favorite player of all-time. During the Bulls-Celtics series I wore his red #33 jersey which I got back in the 90's. Not everybody jumps on the bandwagon of the best/most hyped player like MJ fans from the 90's who are now riding the LeBron bandwagon.


ut like i said in a previous post from 95-98 all the bulls and the opponants shot a low %. it was the nature of the game. not to mention pip had a bad back (which started the downfall of his career) in 97 remember him landing on his back on the dunk that put the bullets out? he had problems too. it was a gutsy playoff performance for scottie. and truth be told ive played basketball sick (maybe not jordan sick) before and ive had a strained back. i could barely walk with the back problem. ill take a cold over playing with an injured back any day.

Blashempony! MJ is the only player who has ever played hurt!

Great point, Pippen also had a foot injury during that period. There was even doubt that he would play in game 1 in 97' because of it but he gutted it out and had 27 points, 9 rebounds, 4 blocks, and 3 steals. He was the MVP of that game but all MJ zealots remember is MJ hitting the game winner. They forget all that Pippen did to even keep the Bulls in that game.


LeBron James is on path to be the greatest player ever,

Yes, but how many times have we seen this movie before? Penny, Grant Hill, VC, T Mac, Iverson, et al. He may be the next top 10 player or he may be the next T Mac. One thing is for sure, unless he wins a ring he will not enter top 10 discussions. It is no coincidence that the top 10 all won rings. Karl Malone>Tim Duncan as a player but Duncan has 4 rings and Malone 0 and Duncan is consensus top 10 while Malone is always left right on the outside of that elite group due to not winning a championship.


why dont you man up and say you dont want any of the bulls getting credit.

Yeah it is funny how they do not want to admit that. There are a group of people who always criticize MJ's teammates whenever they come up. Is it a mere coincidence that this brigade consists entirely of MJ fans?

Pippen did not face as much scrutiny because he was not shoved down the population's throat on ESPN 24/7, he was not hyped as the future GOAT, he was not shoved down our throat by around the clock Nike and Vitamin Water commercials, etc.

[juju151111]

I think Pippen is a better, more polished all around player than Lebron is right now, but I find your criticism of him to be a little hypocritical. You criticize his failure as a young player leading his team to the Finals, but you fail to mention what Pippen was doing in his early years. You talk about his failure as a team leader, you mock his team's loss when they won 66 games and you bring up his playoff failures but you don't mention that Pippen has a checkered history himself.

It's no secret that the Pistons punked Pippen throughout the 89 and 90 Playoffs. It was their strategy.

Isiah Thomas -- "...however the
way we tried to attack (the Bulls), was to break down everyone else mentally, to break down (MJ's) supporting parts to more or less leave him standing there alone".

Here (at the 38 second mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0#t=0m38s)). When you watch the clip, whose the player the camera zooms in on when Isiah is talking? It's well known the Pistons targeted Scottie because they thought he was soft. And he was. That's why the Knicks made him their target as well in 92 and 93. Jeff Van Gundy admitted it in his interview on Bill Simmons podcast. That's 4 straight years the Bulls best opponent thought the best way to beat the Bulls was to attack Pippen. Has this ever happened to Lebron? How many other top 50 players have been punked as much as Pippen was early on in his career?

There were other moments. I remember Scottie pouting in Game 4 of the 92 ECSF vs Cleveland. He didn't want to shoot and I don't think he scored a point the whole second half. Chicago ended up losing this game. Where was the leadership? Maybe Chicago wins if he shows up. Even Phil Jackson criticized him for it. Even when he was at his best, he made some critical errors in judgment. What about the sit-down incident in Game 3 of the 94 ECSF vs New York? That was a total distraction and by the way, what does that say about Pippen's scoring prowess that PJ chose to run the play for Toni Kukoc with the game on the line? It was a big shot for Kukoc to hit despite the hoopla surrounding it. What happens if he misses and New York takes it in overtime? Imagine if Lebron did that. You always bring up the phantom foul vs Chicago in Game 5, but what happened in Game 6? He shot 31%. Game 7? He shot 36%. I know he added more value than just his shooting percentage, but so did Lebron yet you are riding him for it. What about the gun incident in 95?

And didn't he get pulled over for a DWI in Houston? What about publicly blasting his teammate (Barkley) by calling him a fat loser while they were still on the same team? And then he pulled a bitchmove when he brought MJ in it by saying MJ agreed with him. Not only was it poor leadership and bad judgment, but it could have altered the friendship between MJ and Barkley. Again...where's the leadership? Has Lebron done any of this?

As I mentioned before, most of the other legendary players did award-worthy damage while their superstar teammate was still on the floor. You keep forcing 94/95 down our throats, but Scottie had plenty of opportunities to carve out his legacy while MJ was still playing. Let's look at the 4th quarter of game 6 of the 93 Finals vs Phoenix. Chicago was visibly nervous and most of the team couldn't settle down. They couldn't buy a basket and at one point turned the ball over 3 straight times. Here was an opportunity for Pippen to jump out of MJ's shadow, but what happened? Chicago scored 12 points that quarter -- MJ scored the first 9. MJ was the only guy to stand up on the road that night when his team was wilting. Missed opportunity for Pippen.

1996. Jordan is having the worst Finals performance of his career. He ends it shooting only 41% from the field. This is easily Pippen's greatest opportunity to win a Finals MVP award. Surely, the #1 option-but-masquerading-as-a-#2 would find a way to lift the Bulls while Jordan struggled with his shot. Finally nab a piece of hardware to prove he was more than just Jordan's sidekick, right? Nope. Pippen shot 34% for the whole series. Isn't this exactly what you're criticizing Lebron for?

Game 5, 1997 NBA Finals. Jordan's sick game. Have you ever wondered why he had to have this masterful performance in the first place? We heard the stories of the vomiting, the IV's, the extreme fatigue... Seems to me this was the perfect opportunity for Pippen to pick MJ up and tell him "I got this". Oh he picked him up alright...after MJ scored 38 and the winning bucket. Pippen was busy scoring 17 pts on 29% from the field. This was a golden opportunity for Pippen to establish himself, but again he let sick-as-a-dog MJ handle it.

Speaking of the sick game...ever notice what Bill Walton said during the replay of MJ's game-winning shot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVK1kgrK9bs#t=9m51s)?

Bill Walton -- "[The Bulls] post up Scottie and then, for no reason, [the Jazz] double-team Scottie down low and leave Michael Jordan [open]."

Why would he criticize the Jazz strategy here if Pippen was such a prolific scorer? Especially since MJ was visibly wheezing at this point?

What about after MJ left? Let's look at the 2000 WCF Portland vs LA Lakers. How did the Blazers lose a 15 point 4th quarter lead with the 6 time champion, would-have-won-multiple-championships-as-the-#1-guy-if-MJ didn't-hold-him-back Scottie Pippen on the floor? Here was the most golden of golden opportunites to not only step out of MJ's shadow but snuff out a dynasty before it even got started. What does Pippen do? 12 points on 30% shooting and he was virtually invisible in that infamous 4th quarter. Pippen played the background. Again.

Pippen was a great, great player and I think the perfect compliment to Jordan but your making what you think are too-subtle-to-detect comments meant to chip away at Jordan in the guise of complimenting Pippen is way off base.

You're teeing off on Jordan and Lebron when there is PLENTY to criticize Pippen for -- playing with and without Jordan.
:applause: :applause: Facts:hammertime:

[97 bulls]

LeBron shot poorly in three of their four losses and in one gave had 8 turnovers and 5 fouls. LeBron cannot be completely absolved of responsibility.



LeBron is in his 6th season. He has already been to the NBA finals and had another team which had the best record in the league. Moreover, this guy is the alleged future GOAT so he warrants greater scrutiny than anyone else in the game. Where are the results? He was in the finals against a superior team but he had one of the worst finals appearances ever.

After 6 seasons Scottie Pippen was a 3x champ and had 5 conference finals appearances...



How did that work out for the Knicks in 93', when Pippen was the MVP of the ECF? :oldlol:

As to specific games, you do make valid points but you can cherry pick several instances of Pippen rising to the occasion, most notably the 93' ECF. Also, it was Pippen who led the legendary 15 point comeback in game 6 against Portland when he was playing with a bench of bench scrubs and MJ was resting on the bench. If the Bulls lose that game who knows what would have happened in game 7. The Bulls were a better team but you never know what can happen in a single game.



He was averaging 20 ppg entering that game, despite being the #2 option. He did particularly well against the much shorter Hornacek. What was Walton's strategy? Let the 6'7" Pippen post up Hornacek one on one? :oldlol:
Add that pass to the list of times of Pippen coming through when it counted most (Pip also had 10 boards for a double double that game).

Pippen was 34 in Portland and his body was battered by years of injuries. Do you think Portland loses that series with prime Pippen???? Also, note that the 2000 Blazers came closest to beating that Shaq/Kobe dynasty during the three peat years.



Why? Why would I want to chip away at MJ? Pippen is my favorite player of all-time. During the Bulls-Celtics series I wore his red #33 jersey which I got back in the 90's. Not everybody jumps on the bandwagon of the best/most hyped player like MJ fans from the 90's who are now riding the LeBron bandwagon.



Blashempony! MJ is the only player who has ever played hurt!

Great point, Pippen also had a foot injury during that period. There was even doubt that he would play in game 1 in 97' because of it but he gutted it out and had 27 points, 9 rebounds, 4 blocks, and 3 steals. He was the MVP of that game but all MJ zealots remember is MJ hitting the game winner. They forget all that Pippen did to even keep the Bulls in that game.



Yes, but how many times have we seen this movie before? Penny, Grant Hill, VC, T Mac, Iverson, et al. He may be the next top 10 player or he may be the next T Mac. One thing is for sure, unless he wins a ring he will not enter top 10 discussions. It is no coincidence that the top 10 all won rings. Karl Malone>Tim Duncan as a player but Duncan has 4 rings and Malone 0 and Duncan is consensus top 10 while Malone is always left right on the outside of that elite group due to not winning a championship.



Yeah it is funny how they do not want to admit that. There are a group of people who always criticize MJ's teammates whenever they come up. Is it a mere coincidence that this brigade consists entirely of MJ fans?

Pippen did not face as much scrutiny because he was not shoved down the population's throat on ESPN 24/7, he was not hyped as the future GOAT, he was not shoved down our throat by around the clock Nike and Vitamin Water commercials, etc.
yeah, your right about the jordan fans abusing his teammates to put him on a higher pedastal than hes already on. and let me state for the record that im a jordan fan hes the greatest ever and its not close. but im sick of people making it seem like he won 6 rings with minimal help at best.

[97 bulls]

:applause: :applause: Facts:hammertime:
lol ******ger.

[Roundball_Rock]

Same here. These people actually manage to make the GOAT overrated. :roll:

[juju151111]

LeBron shot poorly in three of their four losses and in one gave had 8 turnovers and 5 fouls. LeBron cannot be completely absolved of responsibility.



LeBron is in his 6th season. He has already been to the NBA finals and had another team which had the best record in the league. Moreover, this guy is the alleged future GOAT so he warrants greater scrutiny than anyone else in the game. Where are the results? He was in the finals against a superior team but he had one of the worst finals appearances ever.

After 6 seasons Scottie Pippen was a 3x champ and had 5 conference finals appearances...



How did that work out for the Knicks in 93', when Pippen was the MVP of the ECF? :oldlol:

As to specific games, you do make valid points but you can cherry pick with any player (even the GOAT...). There are several instances of Pippen rising to the occasion, most notably the 93' ECF. Also, it was Pippen who led the legendary 15 point comeback in game 6 against Portland when he was playing with a bunch of bench scrubs and MJ was resting on the bench. If the Bulls lose that game who knows what would have happened in game 7. The Bulls were a better team but you never know what can happen in a single game.



He was averaging 20 ppg entering that game, despite being the #2 option. He did particularly well against the much shorter Hornacek. What was Walton's strategy? Let the 6'7" Pippen post up Hornacek one on one? :oldlol:
Add that pass to the list of times of Pippen coming through when it counted most (Pip also had 10 boards for a double double that game).

Pippen was 34 in Portland and his body was battered by years of injuries. Do you think Portland loses that series with prime Pippen???? Also, note that the 2000 Blazers came closest to beating that Shaq/Kobe dynasty during the three peat years.



Why? Why would I want to chip away at MJ? Pippen is my favorite player of all-time. During the Bulls-Celtics series I wore his red #33 jersey which I got back in the 90's. Not everybody jumps on the bandwagon of the best/most hyped player like MJ fans from the 90's who are now riding the LeBron bandwagon.



Blashempony! MJ is the only player who has ever played hurt!

Great point, Pippen also had a foot injury during that period. There was even doubt that he would play in game 1 in 97' because of it but he gutted it out and had 27 points, 9 rebounds, 4 blocks, and 3 steals. He was the MVP of that game but all MJ zealots remember is MJ hitting the game winner. They forget all that Pippen did to even keep the Bulls in that game.



Yes, but how many times have we seen this movie before? Penny, Grant Hill, VC, T Mac, Iverson, et al. He may be the next top 10 player or he may be the next T Mac. One thing is for sure, unless he wins a ring he will not enter top 10 discussions. It is no coincidence that the top 10 all won rings. Karl Malone>Tim Duncan as a player but Duncan has 4 rings and Malone 0 and Duncan is consensus top 10 while Malone is always left right on the outside of that elite group due to not winning a championship.



Yeah it is funny how they do not want to admit that. There are a group of people who always criticize MJ's teammates whenever they come up. Is it a mere coincidence that this brigade consists entirely of MJ fans?

Pippen did not face as much scrutiny because he was not shoved down the population's throat on ESPN 24/7, he was not hyped as the future GOAT, he was not shoved down our throat by around the clock Nike and Vitamin Water commercials, etc.
MJ had noting to do with the Nike commercials at all. He can't help what they put on the TV. He doing the commercial because he signed a damn Nike contract. Just like any other player. Mj deserved the hype anyways. hmmm People tend to remember the gamewiinning shot over anything else you know.

[juju151111]

yeah, your right about the jordan fans abusing his teammates to put him on a higher pedastal than hes already on. and let me state for the record that im a jordan fan hes the greatest ever and its not close. but im sick of people making it seem like he won 6 rings with minimal help at best.
When people stop saying Mj is noting without Pippen i bet you that most MJ fans won't say anything about his teammates.

[Fatal9]

How did that work out for the Knicks in 93', when Pippen was the MVP of the ECF? :oldlol:

On top of this, you remember the HUGE series clinching dagger three he hit in the last minute of game 6? Dude was not only head and shoulders the clear MVP against the toughest team they faced that year, but also the clutchest. MJ was 0 for his last 7 shots in that game. That series was a Pippen-bailout if I ever saw one.

Gotta wonder how many more series like that we'd be talking about if he had his own team...

[Da_Realist]

I think Pippen is a better, more polished all around player than Lebron is right now, but I find your criticism of him to be a little hypocritical. You criticize his failure as a young player leading his team to the Finals, but you fail to mention what Pippen was doing in his early years. You talk about his failure as a team leader, you mock his team's loss when they won 66 games and you bring up his playoff failures but you don't mention that Pippen has a checkered history himself.

It's no secret that the Pistons punked Pippen throughout the 89 and 90 Playoffs. It was their strategy.

Isiah Thomas -- "...however the
way we tried to attack (the Bulls), was to break down everyone else mentally, to break down (MJ's) supporting parts to more or less leave him standing there alone".

Here (at the 38 second mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0#t=0m38s)). When you watch the clip, whose the player the camera zooms in on when Isiah is talking? It's well known the Pistons targeted Scottie because they thought he was soft. And he was. That's why the Knicks made him their target as well in 92 and 93. Jeff Van Gundy admitted it in his interview on Bill Simmons podcast. That's 4 straight years the Bulls best opponent thought the best way to beat the Bulls was to attack Pippen. Has this ever happened to Lebron? How many other top 50 players have been punked as much as Pippen was early on in his career?

There were other moments. I remember Scottie pouting in Game 4 of the 92 ECSF vs Cleveland. He didn't want to shoot and I don't think he scored a point the whole second half. Chicago ended up losing this game. Where was the leadership? Maybe Chicago wins if he shows up. Even Phil Jackson criticized him for it. Even when he was at his best, he made some critical errors in judgment. What about the sit-down incident in Game 3 of the 94 ECSF vs New York? That was a total distraction and by the way, what does that say about Pippen's scoring prowess that PJ chose to run the play for Toni Kukoc with the game on the line? It was a big shot for Kukoc to hit despite the hoopla surrounding it. What happens if he misses and New York takes it in overtime? Imagine if Lebron did that. You always bring up the phantom foul vs Chicago in Game 5, but what happened in Game 6? He shot 31%. Game 7? He shot 36%. I know he added more value than just his shooting percentage, but so did Lebron yet you are riding him for it. What about the gun incident in 95?

And didn't he get pulled over for a DWI in Houston? What about publicly blasting his teammate (Barkley) by calling him a fat loser while they were still on the same team? And then he pulled a bitchmove when he brought MJ in it by saying MJ agreed with him. Not only was it poor leadership and bad judgment, but it could have altered the friendship between MJ and Barkley. Again...where's the leadership? Has Lebron done any of this?

As I mentioned before, most of the other legendary players did award-worthy damage while their superstar teammate was still on the floor. You keep forcing 94/95 down our throats, but Scottie had plenty of opportunities to carve out his legacy while MJ was still playing. Let's look at the 4th quarter of game 6 of the 93 Finals vs Phoenix. Chicago was visibly nervous and most of the team couldn't settle down. They couldn't buy a basket and at one point turned the ball over 3 straight times. Here was an opportunity for Pippen to jump out of MJ's shadow, but what happened? Chicago scored 12 points that quarter -- MJ scored the first 9. MJ was the only guy to stand up on the road that night when his team was wilting. Missed opportunity for Pippen.

1996. Jordan is having the worst Finals performance of his career. He ends it shooting only 41% from the field. This is easily Pippen's greatest opportunity to win a Finals MVP award. Surely, the #1 option-but-masquerading-as-a-#2 would find a way to lift the Bulls while Jordan struggled with his shot. Finally nab a piece of hardware to prove he was more than just Jordan's sidekick, right? Nope. Pippen shot 34% for the whole series. Isn't this exactly what you're criticizing Lebron for?

Game 5, 1997 NBA Finals. Jordan's sick game. Have you ever wondered why he had to have this masterful performance in the first place? We heard the stories of the vomiting, the IV's, the extreme fatigue... Seems to me this was the perfect opportunity for Pippen to pick MJ up and tell him "I got this". Oh he picked him up alright...after MJ scored 38 and the winning bucket. Pippen was busy scoring 17 pts on 29% from the field. This was a golden opportunity for Pippen to establish himself, but again he let sick-as-a-dog MJ handle it.

Speaking of the sick game...ever notice what Bill Walton said during the replay of MJ's game-winning shot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVK1kgrK9bs#t=9m51s)?

Bill Walton -- "[The Bulls] post up Scottie and then, for no reason, [the Jazz] double-team Scottie down low and leave Michael Jordan [open]."

Why would he criticize the Jazz strategy here if Pippen was such a prolific scorer? Especially since MJ was visibly wheezing at this point?

What about after MJ left? Let's look at the 2000 WCF Portland vs LA Lakers. How did the Blazers lose a 15 point 4th quarter lead with the 6 time champion, would-have-won-multiple-championships-as-the-#1-guy-if-MJ didn't-hold-him-back Scottie Pippen on the floor? Here was the most golden of golden opportunites to not only step out of MJ's shadow but snuff out a dynasty before it even got started. What does Pippen do? 12 points on 30% shooting and he was virtually invisible in that infamous 4th quarter. Pippen played the background. Again.

Pippen was a great, great player and I think the perfect compliment to Jordan but your making what you think are too-subtle-to-detect comments meant to chip away at Jordan in the guise of complimenting Pippen is way off base.

You're teeing off on Jordan and Lebron when there is PLENTY to criticize Pippen for -- playing with and without Jordan.

No where in this post ^^ did I say Pippen was a scrub, Pippen wasn't needed or that Pippen didn't have his moments. I even admitted that Pippen was, in my opinion, a better overall player than Lebron James and he was an integral part of the Bulls championship teams. You are exaggerating to make your point.

I simply stated that it's unfair to criticize Lebron so freely about his failures when Pippen had some of the same failures, if not more (only not as many people were paying attention). Not only is it unfair, but it's opportunistic because Lebron's career is scrutinized to a degree that Pippen's wasn't. I said that was hypocritical -- which it was. Posting great games/moments by Pippen or comparing his performances against Jordan doesn't change that fact.

:oldlol: @ anyone who actually thinks I don't like Scottie Pippen.

[OldSchoolBBall]

On top of this, you remember the HUGE series clinching dagger three he hit in the last minute of game 6? Dude was not only head and shoulders the clear MVP against the toughest team they faced that year, but also the clutchest. MJ was 0 for his last 7 shots in that game. That series was a Pippen-bailout if I ever saw one.

Gotta wonder how many more series like that we'd be talking about if he had his own team...

:oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Mj deserved the hype anyways.

Yes--LeBron does not, at least thus far.


When people stop saying Mj is noting without Pippen i bet you that most MJ fans won't say anything about his teammates.

No one seriously thinks MJ was nothing without Pippen. Even in threads that have nothing to do with MJ you see the same MJ fans coming in and bashing his teammates. MJ fans=the most insecure ever despite their hero being the "clear GOAT" according to them.


On top of this, you remember the HUGE series clinching dagger three he hit in the last minute of game 6? Dude was not only head and shoulders the clear MVP against the toughest team they faced that year, but also the clutchest. MJ was 0 for his last 7 shots in that game. That series was a Pippen-bailout if I ever saw one.

Gotta wonder how many more series like that we'd be talking about if he had his own team...

That was a great game and also remember him coming through with 32 points, 13 rebounds, 7 assists, 5 steals, and a block to eliminate the Lakers in the 91' finals.


Lebron's career is scrutinized to a degree that Pippen's wasn't.

Lebron is the alleged future GOAT and shoved down everyone's throats on ESPN, by the NBA, and by corporations like Nike and Vitaminwater. Of course he gets more scrutiny than Pippen.

[97 bulls]

When people stop saying Mj is noting without Pippen i bet you that most MJ fans won't say anything about his teammates.
lol those are extreme haters of mj or mostly people who love kobe and detract from jordan to build up kobe. but in my opinion michael jordan has done farrrrrrrrrrrrrr to much to have to stoop to a level of trying to detroy his teammates role.

its funny cuz its coming full circle. and this is the truth. this all stems from what the bulls did in the 90s and it trumping everything the lakers did in the 80s. once it got to the point that the people that are laker fans couldnt really argue jordan being the greatest over magic or the bulls being the grearest team ever, stat for stat, they began to resort to different tactics. first it was that the bulls were jordan and a bunch of scrubs, 94 killed that. then it was their era which has been refuted. then it was the teams they played in the finals and that been beat back. but these guys are crafty. thats why kobe gets compared to jordan so much, hes their last hope to taking back that mantle for the lakers as the goat which jordan took from magic who got it from kareem (both lakers). now, since they cant really argue against bulls fans or jordan fans they (in a great move) have us against each other and let us detract from the bulls and jordan.

ive come to the conclusion that guys like da realist and loki and know it all are not really bulls fans. their jordan fans. and thus laker fans realize this. and they are great debaters who out do anybody that questions jordans alltime supremacy. which is why now they (laker groupies) turn jordan fans on bulls fans by saying that jordan had alot of help in the finals. then jordan fans say begin to degrade every player on the bulls not named jordan. its alway pips not clutch enough or he has bad stats or kukoc was soft or rodman was a knuckle head or longley was a scrub. and the jordan only fans dont realize that they are doing laker fans job. its a classic case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. i could go deeper but i think ive exposed enough people for 1 day.

[Fatal9]

That was a great game and also remember him coming through with 32 points, 13 rebounds, 7 assists, 5 steals, and a block to eliminate the Lakers in the 91' finals.
By most people's accounts the turning point in that series was Pippen's pressure defense on Magic from game 2 onwards. Albert and Fratello even pointed this out. No knock on MJ though, he was incredible in that series but the Lakers showed in game 1 that they could win (on the road too) with Jordan having a great game. His defense on Magic fatigued him (he asked to come out of the game in fact) and really didn't provide the level of discomfort that Pippen gave him, as Magic's best games/runs came with Jordan guarding him. Pippen's long reach disrupted his passes too. Don't know any other perimeter player who could have taken out a player like Magic the way Pippen did. He was absolutely indispensable.

[Da_Realist]

Lebron is the alleged future GOAT and shoved down everyone's throats on ESPN, by the NBA, and by corporations like Nike and Vitaminwater. Of course he gets more scrutiny than Pippen.

That's my point. Your criticisms of Lebron are valid, but those same criticisms of Pippen are valid too. You fail to understand the other half of the equation. Playing in Jordan's shadow robbed Pippen of his due -- but it also shielded him from the intense glare that clear #1's faced every single game. You can't cherry pick all of Pippen's great moments and then conclude that he woulda-shoulda-coulda. If you want Pippen to be compared with the elite of the elites, his career has to be scrutinized in the same way that theirs were/are.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol:
Anything I say false? :confusedshrug:.

It really is a shame, like roundball said, that posters like him and I have to constantly argue against MJ in some of these posts when he is probably my favorite (and his second favorite) player of all time. But at this point, on ISH and in the media, Jordan has been built up in to something he isn't...dare I say, he's becoming overrated? Jordolatry, as I like to call it. Pippen on the other hand, is treated in the exact opposite way (especially by a certain faction of MJ fans).

[Da_Realist]

Anything I say false? :confusedshrug:.

It really is a shame, like roundball said, that posters like him and I have to constantly argue against MJ in some of these posts when he is probably my favorite (and his second favorite) player of all time. But at this point, on ISH and in the media, Jordan has been built up in to something he isn't...dare I say, he's becoming overrated? Jordolatry, as I like to call it. Pippen on the other hand, is treated in the exact opposite way (especially by a certain faction of MJ fans).

Now you guys are whining. Let's get back on topic. Can you please answer why you and Roundball_Rock are criticizing Lebron for failures that Pippen had himself? For example, you mock Lebron's 38 fg% in 2007, even though Pippen shot 34% in 1996. You talk about leadership issues, when Pippen had some himself. etc, etc, etc...

You're talking about MJ and his "fans" to steer off the main topic.

[cavsfanatic]

It's easier to score in today's league according to a lot of old timers. So how can we expect Lebron to be as good a defender, since it must be harder to defend if it's easier to score?

A double standard a lot of old timers choose to ignore when saying "players of the 80's would score 40ppg in this league".
It is not easier to score now lol. If they had illegal defense now lebron would average 40ppg seriously.

[cavsfanatic]

O yea back onto the topic. I think pippen was underrated like a mutha but lebron on another level than pip was. Lebron is like pippen but a better scorer and not as good defender. Lebron jus a freakish athlethe

[Roundball_Rock]

But at this point, on ISH and in the media, Jordan has been built up in to something he isn't...dare I say, he's becoming overrated? Jordolatry,

Exactly. He has went from a GOAT basketball player to demigod status where he is credited for everything positive that happens around him. His teammates sucked but MJ managed to win without them. Well, one teammate, Pip did not suck that much but that is because MJ "made him." Rodman? MJ is the reason he meshed with the Bulls. Jack Haley, Phil Jackson, and Pippen played no role in that. And so on.


Can you please answer why you and Roundball_Rock are criticizing Lebron for failures that Pippen had himself?

6

That is why. There is one other non-champion in the American sports world who rivals LeBron in media attention and corporate endorsements: Dale Earnhardt Jr. in NASCAR. Like LeBron, he garners the lion's share of media attention and corporate endorsements in NASCAR. When he does something like miss his pit stall at the Daytona 500 he is criticized it. When he caused a big crash in the same race it was the biggest story of the week, even bigger than the story of the guy (Kenseth) who won the race. When Jimmie Johnson misses his pit stall or causes a crash no one cares. The reason? Johnson has delivered the goods. He is a 3x champion, Junior has never placed higher than 3rd. We see this in other sports too. When someone like Tom Brady has a bad game no one cares yet when Donovan McNabb has one the entire city of Philadelphia is calling for his head. Why? Brady has 3 rings while McNabb has yet to won one.

There is another factor that causes LeBron to receive additional scrutiny: hype. Earnhardt Jr. is popular because he inherited the massive fan base of his late father. No one is calling him the future GOAT. No one even considers him the best current driver and most people would not even rate him to be a top 5 driver. LeBron is the alleged future GOAT and widely considered to be the best player in the game right now. Six years and no rings for the projected GOAT will inevitably raise questions.

[juju151111]

On top of this, you remember the HUGE series clinching dagger three he hit in the last minute of game 6? Dude was not only head and shoulders the clear MVP against the toughest team they faced that year, but also the clutchest. MJ was 0 for his last 7 shots in that game. That series was a Pippen-bailout if I ever saw one.

Gotta wonder how many more series like that we'd be talking about if he had his own team...
??? LOL Scottie had plenty of oppotunity to do those things with MJ. He was missing a few through. Pippen had alot of game winning attempts during his stay with the bulls. I give Pip alot of props for what he did in 93. MJ injury stop him from being dominate that series, but Pippen took over.(It also help Pippen that the xman wasn't their anymore becuase we all know what happens then.LOL) Looks compare stats then

MJ (injured) 32,38%,5.6 rebs,7 ast,2.5stls,2.3 TO.
vs
Pip avg 22.5,52%,5.5 rebs,4ast,1.8 stl,4TO
Pippen played better :cheers:

[juju151111]

Yes--LeBron does not, at least thus far.



No one seriously thinks MJ was nothing without Pippen. Even in threads that have nothing to do with MJ you see the same MJ fans coming in and bashing his teammates. MJ fans=the most insecure ever despite their hero being the "clear GOAT" according to them.



That was a great game and also remember him coming through with 32 points, 13 rebounds, 7 assists, 5 steals, and a block to eliminate the Lakers in the 91' finals.



Lebron is the alleged future GOAT and shoved down everyone's throats on ESPN, by the NBA, and by corporations like Nike and Vitaminwater. Of course he gets more scrutiny than Pippen.
Wow so your saying you never see these Kobe fans saying Mj is noting without pip? It might be because they are always saying good post to you bevcause they want pip to get has much hype. How could you see only one side. I even see fellow Mj fans i don't like.They argue about stupid things and make threads for no reason

[juju151111]

By most people's accounts the turning point in that series was Pippen's pressure defense on Magic from game 2 onwards. Albert and Fratello even pointed this out. No knock on MJ though, he was incredible in that series but the Lakers showed in game 1 that they could win (on the road too) with Jordan having a great game. His defense on Magic fatigued him (he asked to come out of the game in fact) and really didn't provide the level of discomfort that Pippen gave him, as Magic's best games/runs came with Jordan guarding him. Pippen's long reach disrupted his passes too. Don't know any other perimeter player who could have taken out a player like Magic the way Pippen did. He was absolutely indispensable.
WTF stop watching highlights and that stupid play where Pip went on magic for one second. Mj guarded him while scoring the most of the damn series. Just like He guarded isiah in 1990 and shut his ass down had him shooting like 35%. Pippen didn't guard Magic for most of the series. Go back and watch it. Its on youtube the full games stop talking out of your ass.:hammertime:

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow so your saying you never see these Kobe fans saying Mj is noting without pip?

I see it but 90% of those saying it are either trolls or gimmick accounts. I do not take those posts seriously and neither should MJ fans. MJ was a great player before and after Pippen. What is fair to say is that Pippen helped Jordan win 6 championships. MJ almost certainly would have won championships without Pippen because the Bulls would have likely acquired a viable second option for him (I say likely because when the Bulls attempted to acquire a second option for Pippen they signed Ron Harper--who proceeded to average 6-7 ppg...). However, without Pippen there would not have been two three peats and MJ would not be the consensus GOAT. It is the two three peats that elevated Jordan to consensus GOAT status. If he won 2, 3, or even 4 rings he would be "just" one player in the GOAT discussion alongside Kareem, Wilt, Magic, and co.


Pippen didn't guard Magic for most of the series.

Yes--and Magic had his best games with MJ on him...

[Fatal9]

WTF stop watching highlights and that stupid play where Pip went on magic for one second. Mj guarded him while scoring the most of the damn series. Just like He guarded isiah in 1990 and shut his ass down had him shooting like 35%. Pippen didn't guard Magic for most of the series. Go back and watch it. Its on youtube the full games stop talking out of your ass.
:oldlol: at saying it was "one stupid play" where Pippen went on Magic. It's clear to me you haven't watched any of those games. Pippen played pressure full court defense on Magic nearly every time Magic brought the ball up court (especially game 2), and a lot of people recognize that as being the turning point in the series (Marv Albert and Mike Fratello included).

I have all the games on my computer and can easily make a quick compilation to prove this, but anyone who has actually watched the series knows this. But I guess you don't because you won't see these things on those highlights that are dedicated exclusively to Jordan. :oldlol: at anyone saying Jordan did a better job on Magic when Magic had his two best games (game 1 and 5) when Jordan defended him. Just from watching them play, it was clear Pippen bothered Magic a lot more, especially off passes (lowest assist totals in games Pippen guarded him) due to his long reach. The full court defense resulted in Magic being extremely uncomfortable and impatient in offensive sets, and also wore him down as the game went on.

[juju151111]

:oldlol: at saying it was "one stupid play" where Pippen went on Magic. It's clear to me you haven't watched any of those games. Pippen played pressure full court defense on Magic nearly every time Magic brought the ball up court (especially game 2), and a lot of people recognize that as being the turning point in the series (Marv Albert and Mike Fratello included).

I have all the games on my computer and can easily make a quick compilation to prove this, but anyone who has actually watched the series knows this. But I guess you don't because you won't see these things on those highlights that are dedicated exclusively to Jordan. :oldlol: at anyone saying Jordan did a better job on Magic when Magic had his two best games (game 1 and 5) when Jordan defended him. Just from watching them play, it was clear Pippen bothered Magic a lot more, especially off passes (lowest assist totals in games Pippen guarded him) due to his long reach. The full court defense resulted in Magic being extremely uncomfortable and impatient in offensive sets, and also wore him down as the game went on.
I exgerrated, but my point still stands. Mj guarded him for the most of the series. I just exgerrated because you sounded stupid. Ok Make the compilation and make one for MJ. lets see who really guarded him. LOl there are no highlights of MJ guarding Magic idiot. I watch the game. What are you talking about?? MJ guardefd him the whole series. Pippen never guarded him for more the a few streches i8n the series. So how do you know what stats are from what in gm 2,3, and 4. Seriously WTF i am seriously questioning you right now. Go watch your tapes and take a look.

[Fatal9]

I exgerrated, but my point still stands. Mj guarded him for the most of the series. I just exgerrated because you sounded stupid. Ok Make the compilation and make one for MJ. lets see who really guarded him. LOl there are no highlights of MJ guarding Magic idiot. I watch the game. What are you talking about?? MJ guardefd him the whole series. Pippen never guarded him for more the a few streches. So how do you know what stats are from what in gm 2,3, and 4. Seriously WTF
:roll: at this guy. Dude's been brainwashed by a couple of highlight reels he's seen and the opinion of a couple of biased ISH posters.

:oldlol:

[branslowski]

I exgerrated, but my point still stands. Mj guarded him for the most of the series. I just exgerrated because you sounded stupid. Ok Make the compilation and make one for MJ. lets see who really guarded him. LOl there are no highlights of MJ guarding Magic idiot. I watch the game. What are you talking about?? MJ guardefd him the whole series. Pippen never guarded him for more the a few streches i8n the series. So how do you know what stats are from what in gm 2,3, and 4. Seriously WTF i am seriously questioning you right now. Go watch your tapes and take a look.

:oldlol:

[juju151111]

:oldlol:
Show me where Pippen guarded Him more then MJ. Point me to the games. Please.:hammertime:

[JohnnyBravo5]

He was better than Pippen on draft day

[juju151111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSRnBOfhGBY&feature=PlayList&p=668B030DFF58B59E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1 Mj guarding him gm 3 going to post the rest when i find them. wait a gimme a minute. :hammertime: LOL You faker Fatal trying to debate me on MJ.

[vert48]

Pippens knees are shot, and he has been out of the league for several years, so LeBron is obviously better then Pippen.

[juju151111]

here is another one. Mj dominating offensivly while still guarding Magic. LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKRNGxAhASQ&feature=PlayList&p=668B030DFF58B59E&index=2 Read above for the other one i posted. LOL stay off that crack pipe brans and Fatal. Worthy is also dominating Pippen in that in the Post:wtf:

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at this guy. Now go watch game 2, which was defensive dominance by Pippen. Congratulations you found a stretch where MJ guarded Magic, it was about 50-50 with MJ guarding him all of game 1 and game 5 (Magic's best games). You've pretty much exposed yourself as even a well known Jordan fanatic on this board called it 50/50 with Jordan mainly guarding in game 1 and 5. The whole f*cking arena was clapping for Pippen in game 2 because of his defense on Magic the entire game. But it never happened? Only on a couple of plays? :roll:

[Da_Realist]

Now you guys are whining. Let's get back on topic. Can you please answer why you and Roundball_Rock are criticizing Lebron for failures that Pippen had himself? For example, you mock Lebron's 38 fg% in 2007, even though Pippen shot 34% in 1996. You talk about leadership issues, when Pippen had some himself. etc, etc, etc...

You're talking about MJ and his "fans" to steer off the main topic.


6

That is why. There is one other non-champion in the American sports world who rivals LeBron in media attention and corporate endorsements: Dale Earnhardt Jr. in NASCAR. Like LeBron, he garners the lion's share of media attention and corporate endorsements in NASCAR. When he does something like miss his pit stall at the Daytona 500 he is criticized it. When he caused a big crash in the same race it was the biggest story of the week, even bigger than the story of the guy (Kenseth) who won the race. When Jimmie Johnson misses his pit stall or causes a crash no one cares. The reason? Johnson has delivered the goods. He is a 3x champion, Junior has never placed higher than 3rd. We see this in other sports too. When someone like Tom Brady has a bad game no one cares yet when Donovan McNabb has one the entire city of Philadelphia is calling for his head. Why? Brady has 3 rings while McNabb has yet to won one.

There is another factor that causes LeBron to receive additional scrutiny: hype. Earnhardt Jr. is popular because he inherited the massive fan base of his late father. No one is calling him the future GOAT. No one even considers him the best current driver and most people would not even rate him to be a top 5 driver. LeBron is the alleged future GOAT and widely considered to be the best player in the game right now. Six years and no rings for the projected GOAT will inevitably raise questions.

In other words, you have no answer. Just admit that and move on. You're holding Lebron to a much higher standard than you do Pippen. You admit it, justify it by saying it's because of the "hype", then spend every day whining because you don't think Pippen gets enough recognition. You want the recognition, but not the added scrutiny.

You can't have it both ways.

[OldSchoolBBall]

By most people's accounts the turning point in that series was Pippen's pressure defense on Magic from game 2 onwards. Albert and Fratello even pointed this out. No knock on MJ though, he was incredible in that series but the Lakers showed in game 1 that they could win (on the road too) with Jordan having a great game. His defense on Magic fatigued him (he asked to come out of the game in fact)

You've already been utterly disproven on your "Pippen guarded Magic all series" claims in another thread (Jordan guarded him 50-60% of the series), and I would love to know where you heard that Jordan asked out of a game in 1991 due to fatigue, because that's a farce if I ever heard one. :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

??? LOL Scottie had plenty of oppotunity to do those things with MJ. He was missing a few through. Pippen had alot of game winning attempts during his stay with the bulls. I give Pip alot of props for what he did in 93. MJ injury stop him from being dominate that series, but Pippen took over.(It also help Pippen that the xman wasn't their anymore becuase we all know what happens then.LOL) Looks compare stats then

MJ (injured) 32,38%,5.6 rebs,7 ast,2.5stls,2.3 TO.
vs
Pip avg 22.5,52%,5.5 rebs,4ast,1.8 stl,4TO
Pippen played better :cheers:

Jordan didn't shoot 38% vs. NY in '93. I think like 41% or so.

[juju151111]

:oldlol: at this guy. Now go watch game 2, which was defensive dominance by Pippen. Congratulations you found a stretch where MJ guarded Magic, it was about 50-50 with MJ guarding him all of game 1 and game 5 (Magic's best games). You've pretty much exposed yourself as even a well known Jordan fanatic on this board called it 50/50 with Jordan mainly guarding in game 1 and 5. The whole f*cking arena was clapping for Pippen in game 2 because of his defense on Magic the entire game. But it never happened? Only on a couple of plays? :roll:
"Facepalm" I never said he guarded him all of gm 2. LOL i am not a MJ fanatic you freaking idiot. Who said it never happened you dumbass. lol i already watch the gm. He manly guardeing him in every gm. WTF Pippen only did it in streches and gm2 was his longest strech. I am giving you vishal proof.

[Roundball_Rock]

In other words, you have no answer. Just admit that and move on. You're holding Lebron to a much higher standard than you do Pippen.

So I should criticize a Tom Brady interception as much a Donovan McNabb or Jay Cutler interception? Do you?

Give Pippen scrutiny. The bottom line is he got the job done 6 times and came close 3 other times (4 if you factor in Hue Hollins...).


You've already been utterly disproven on your "Pippen guarded Magic all series" claims in another thread

Actually, that thread led to the hilarity that can come only with self-ownage. It turned out Magic's best games were the games MJ was guarding him.

Jordan shot 40% in the 93' ECF. However, this is inflated by a 18 for 30 performance in his 54 point game. He shot 35% in the other five games.

[juju151111]

here is Mj guarding Magic in the 3Q of gm 3. So far Pippen only guarded him for a 4 min 5 min strech in gm 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zonSYu_WWM&feature=PlayList&p=668B030DFF58B59E&index=6 Vishal evidence again.

[Da_Realist]

So I should criticize a Tom Brady interception as much a Donovan McNabb or Jay Cutler interception? Do you?

If you want the same credit bestowed upon Pippen that Lebron and others get (and you clearly do), then YES, treat them both the same way.

[juju151111]

So I should criticize a Tom Brady interception as much a Donovan McNabb or Jay Cutler interception? Do you?

Give Pippen scrutiny. The bottom line is he got the job done 6 times and came close 3 other times (4 if you factor in Hue Hollins...).



Actually, that thread led to the hilarity that can come only with self-ownage. It turned out Magic's best games were the games MJ was guarding him.

Jordan shot 40% in the 93' ECF. However, this is inflated by a 18 for 30 performance in his 54 point game. He shot 35% in the other five games.
GTFO with that inflated crap. pippen was shooting like 80% in one game. You can't exclude games. Mj all around stats were equal or better then pippen other then FG%. He just injured his wrist again in that series and was shooting aiballs.

[Fatal9]

Er, people are still saying Pippen wasn't the MVP of the series, despite having better stats AND hitting the series clinching three pointer with the shot clock expiring (hit another big shot before the three too, whereas MJ was 0-7 on his last shots)?


You've already been utterly disproven on your "Pippen guarded Magic all series" claims in another thread (Jordan guarded him 50-60% of the series), and I would love to know where you heard that Jordan asked out of a game in 1991 due to fatigue, because that's a farce if I ever heard one. :oldlol:
:oldlol: at "all series". Never said that, through the first 4 games Pippen did guard him for most of the series. The wording was "most of the series" (in reference really to the first 4 games). I'll dig up the clip, shouldn't have to waste time doing this though.

:oldlol: at the "vishal" evidence guy.

[juju151111]

Er, people are still saying Pippen wasn't the MVP of the series, despite having better stats AND hitting the series clinching three pointer with the shot clock expiring (hit another big shot before the three too, whereas MJ was 0-7 on his last shots)?


:oldlol: at "all series". Never said that, through the first 4 games Pippen did guard him for most of the series. The wording was "most of the series" (in reference really to the first 4 games). I'll dig up the clip, shouldn't have to waste time doing this though.

:oldlol: at the "vishal" evidence guy.
Are you fuking stipid are something? LOL here your quote "through the first 4 games" now go back to my previuos four post and watch the vids and show me where Pippen is guarding him??? In gm 3 so far Pippen guarded him for 5 mins of the 2nd Q. Here is the announcers saying Phil should go back to Mj guarding magic because since pip took over at the 7 minute mark pf the 3Q Magic is whipping out asts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm19-PRp4mQ&feature=PlayList&p=668B030DFF58B59E&index=7 LOL Owned again Mj went back on him again to finish the 3rd Q. LOL Owned *****.

[Roundball_Rock]

If you want the same credit bestowed upon Pippen that Lebron and others get (and you clearly do), then YES, treat them both the same way.

Do you watch any other sports? If you are a football fan do you really criticize Brady or P. Manning having a game as much as a someone without rings?

Pippen is not in the same class as LeBron as a talent.


You can't exclude games.

You have to look at the complete picture. When someone is shooting 33% and still taking 24 shots in a game what relevance does him shooting 60% in the previous game have on the team's chances of winning in 93'?

Ok, he was injured and ineffectual because of that. Maybe he should have passed the ball more and shot less then? He was still taking as many shots as he usually did, aside from the 17% game (the game Pippen shot 80%).

Phil Jackson: Pippen's defense on Magic changed the Bulls' fortunes in the series.

[Da_Realist]

Do you watch any other sports? If you are a football fan do you really criticize Brady or P. Manning having a game as much as a someone without rings?

Pippen is not in the same class as LeBron as a talent.

You spent ten pages whining that Lebron isn't this and that because he shot badly, made bad decisions and hasn't won a title yet. When I bring up some of Pippen's bad games, bad decisions, failures, etc you want to run back and hide by saying he shouldn't be as scrutinized because Lebron's more talented.

That's the problem. You want Pippen to get Lebron's glory but not his scrutiny. And you're actually trying to justify it. If you bring Pippen out of MJ's shadow, everything -- from his great all around game to some of his worst warts -- is going to be put out there for judgment. Don't tee off on someone and then hide behind excuses when Pippen is called out on the same things.

[Lebron23]

You spent ten pages whining that Lebron isn't this and that because he shot badly, made bad decisions and hasn't won a title yet. When I bring up some of Pippen's bad games, bad decisions, failures, etc you want to run back and hide by saying he shouldn't be as scrutinized because Lebron's more talented.

That's the problem. You want Pippen to get Lebron's glory but not his scrutiny. And you're actually trying to justify it. If you bring Pippen out of MJ's shadow, everything -- from his great all around game to some of his worst warts -- is going to be put out there for judgment. Don't tee off on someone and then hide behind excuses when Pippen is called out on the same things.


That guy is an @$$hole. He's not going to respond to your posts.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:oldlol: at "all series". Never said that, through the first 4 games Pippen did guard him for most of the series.

You did say that initially in the other thread, and you've since changed it to the first 4 games. Jordan guarded Magic about 50% of the time through the first 4 games (all of game 1, first quarter of game 2, virtually none of game 3, at least half of game 4, including most of the 4th and OT). So no, Pippen did not guard him for most of the first 4 games.

[juju151111]

Do you watch any other sports? If you are a football fan do you really criticize Brady or P. Manning having a game as much as a someone without rings?

Pippen is not in the same class as LeBron as a talent.



You have to look at the complete picture. When someone is shooting 33% and still taking 24 shots in a game what relevance does him shooting 60% in the previous game have on the team's chances of winning in 93'?

Ok, he was injured and ineffectual because of that. Maybe he should have passed the ball more and shot less then? He was still taking as many shots as he usually did, aside from the 17% game (the game Pippen shot 80%).

Phil Jackson: Pippen's defense on Magic changed the Bulls' fortunes in the series.
LOL yea i agree pippen saved them in gm 2 in 91, but show me the where in the other gms.WTH are you talking about?? When Mj figured he would have to rely more on his teammates after losing gm 1 and 2 He dished out11 ast in game 3. He didn't need to dish in gm 4(54pts), and gm 5 he had 14 ast, and gm 6 he had 9ast. He did exactly what you said he should.

[Roundball_Rock]

1) Threads evolve, especially long ones. I said LeBron is the better player and has a shot at being the GOAT earlier in the thread.
2) I did not say Pippen should not be scrutinized
3) You, or one of the other interchangeable MJ brigade members, cited some of Pippen's bad games in defense of LeBron. This is not a valid comparison. Of course everyone has bad games but one guy has 6 championships, the other 0. The other guy found ways to win and more often than not performed. Peyton Manning once led the league in interceptions. When Manning is compared to, say, McNabb, no one is going to give much weight to that because Manning's bad performances have been greatly outweighed by his good performances. He has won a championship, someone like McNabb (a very good QB) has not. McNabb's "choking"/bad games are scrutinized far more than Manning's for this very reason. If LeBron wins a championship people will forget about his 4.9 PER in the 07' finals. Heck, even Eli was absolved of his past performances after his team won a title, even though the guy is still an average-to-above average, not good or great QB. :oldlol:
4) Pippen will never have the individual glory of LeBron and no thinks he should. LeBron is a far superior player, except that he has not won anything yet.

[juju151111]

You did say that initially in the other thread, and you've since changed it to the first 4 games. Jordan guarded Magic about 50% of the time through the first 4 games (all of game 1, first quarter of game 2, virtually none of game 3, at least half of game 4, including most of the 4th and OT). So no, Pippen did not guard him for most of the first 4 games.
hmm no he didn't loki. He guarded him for most of gm 3. Pippen only had him for a 5 min strech in the 2nd Q and a 3 min in the 3rd Q which they quickly switch Mj back becauase They gained a 10 pt lead. LOL It's all at this guys page Just look up 1991 gm 3 bulls vs lakers. Mj guarded him in gm 3. Pippen guarded worthy and sometimes green, and divac. No joke watch it here is MJ guarding magic in the 4th Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvYcvIP6SE&feature=PlayList&p=668B030DFF58B59E&index=9

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan took 18 shots in game 3 (17% shooting), 24 in game 5 (46%), and 24 again in game 6 (33%). So the guy was hurt and shooting poorly but still taking 20+ shots a game? :confusedshrug: Apparently MJ himself thought he was okay enough to be an effective scorer...His lowest FGA in the 93' playoffs was 18. MJ would always take a lot of shots regardless of how he was shooting. Blitz likes to crow that MJ never scored less than 15 points in a playoff game but he ignores that is because MJ would still take a lot of shots on poor shooting nights and always wind up with a decent point total.

[Fatal9]

I would love to know where you heard that Jordan asked out of a game in 1991 due to fatigue, because that's a farce if I ever heard one. :oldlol:

Here's a clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUoY_JfRLTY

"He just took himself out to get a breather."
"Very taxing for Michael at the defensive end of the court going against Magic Johnson"

Fratello goes on to show how little Mike shoots in the quarter, probably due to fatigue.

Happened in another game too iirc, but you get the point. I wasn't even knocking on Michael (everybody gets tired) but since you asked for it. Don't know why you got so offended :oldlol:


Phil Jackson: Pippen's defense on Magic changed the Bulls' fortunes in the series.
Mike Fratello: "Pippen's defense on Magic in game 2 was really the turning point of this series"

[juju151111]

Here's a clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUoY_JfRLTY

"He just took himself out to get a breather."
"Very taxing for Michael at the defensive end of the court going against Magic Johnson"

Fratello goes on to show how little Mike shoots in the quarter, probably due to fatigue.

Happened in another game too iirc, but you get the point. I wasn't even knocking on Michael (everybody gets tired) but since you asked for it. Don't know why you got so offended :oldlol:


Mike Fratello: "Pippen's defense on Magic in game 2 was really the turning point of this series"
You still have not shown me anything after gm 2 through. Mj got gassed in one game. Wow and he still came back. Why didn't he get gassed in game 3 after guarding him 90% of the time and still dominated and made a game winner? here Mj guarding him in the 4th Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvYcvIP6SE&feature=PlayList&p=668B030DFF58B59E&index=9

[juju151111]

Good Job Fatal at lying. Where is the evidence of Pippen Guarding magic in gm 3??? I posted my evidence which clearly showed Mj on him for 90% of gm 3. Also Mj played 46 mins in gm 3 and still was able to hit the game winner fter guarding Magic the whole gm. LOL fake fan Fatal can't post the proof to back up his BS.

[Da_Realist]

Jordan took 18 shots in game 3 (17% shooting), 24 in game 5 (46%), and 24 again in game 6 (33%). So the guy was hurt and shooting poorly but still taking 20+ shots a game? :confusedshrug: Apparently MJ himself thought he was okay enough to be an effective scorer...His lowest FGA in the 93' playoffs was 18. MJ would always take a lot of shots regardless of how he was shooting. Blitz likes to crow that MJ never scored less than 15 points in a playoff game but he ignores that is because MJ would still take a lot of shots on poor shooting nights and always wind up with a decent point total.

One guy has a career avg of 49 fg% in the playoffs for 4497 shots taken.

Another guy has a career avg of 44 fg% in the playoffs for 3009 shots taken.

Chances are, there are many more times when the first guy should have taken more shots than the second than the other way around. Cherry picking one series or one game doesn't illustrate the full picture.

[catch24]

Good Job Fatal at lying. Where is the evidence of Pippen Guarding magic in gm 3??? I posted my evidence which clearly showed Mj on him for 90% of gm 3. Also Mj played 46 mins in gm 3 and still was able to hit the game winner fter guarding Magic the whole gm. LOL fake fan Fatal can't post the proof to back up his BS.

I'm starting to question the source as well

[Roundball_Rock]

Taking 20+ shots every game even when you are struggling does not make sense. There is a reason why MJ never scored less than 15 points in a playoff game.

[Da_Realist]

Taking 20+ shots every game even when you are struggling does not make sense. There is a reason why MJ never scored less than 15 points in a playoff game.

Also the same reason he won 5 MVP's and 6 Finals MVP's. Because he was efficient while doing it and he came through more for the team than anyone else did.

[juju151111]

I'm starting to question the source as well
Man This is like the 2nd time i made this guy not respond to me in 3 days. He got owned. He probablyy thought i didn't have proof, but go read my last 5 posts and i posted the whole gm 3 and pip only guarded him twice and the 2nd time was for like a 3 min strech where they had to put Mj back on him becuase they gained a 10 pt lead. lol He is fake man. He acts like a Mj fan, but is really a kobe nutgagger.

[juju151111]

Taking 20+ shots every game even when you are struggling does not make sense. There is a reason why MJ never scored less than 15 points in a playoff game.
ohh I guess you ignored my post. MJ started passing more in gm 3 get it through your head.

[Roundball_Rock]

ohh I guess you ignored my post. MJ started passing more in gm 3 get it through your head.

He still took 18, 24, and 24 shots in games 3, 5, and 6. He shot 17%, 45%, and 33% in those games. Yeah he did pass more--but he still jacked up 24 shots.

[catch24]

Man This is like the 2nd time i made this guy not respond to me in 3 days. He got owned. He probablyy thought i didn't have proof, but go read my last 5 posts and i posted the whole gm 3 and pip only guarded him twice and the 2nd time was for like a 3 min strech where they had to put Mj back on him becuase they gained a 10 pt lead. lol He is fake man. He acts like a Mj fan, but is really a kobe nutgagger.

Lol I hear you. Regardless, MJ worked the hardest and had GOAT series. Don't see what the argument is here :confusedshrug:.. Mj was clearly the MVP and did it on both ends rather consistently.