one of the most honest discussions about Kobe I've ever heard

[indiefan23]

Its really too bad ISH can't even come close to approaching this. I think its a maturity thing. Bill Simmons and Matthew Berry really do this Kobe subject justice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/podcast/archive?id=2864045

[branslowski]

Bill Simmons???.....Thread/

[indiefan23]

Bill Simmons???.....Thread/

Matthew Berry == DIE HARD Lakers fan. I said it was an honest conversation dinkus. Maybe you should listen to it first.

<thread>

[jmill]

Matthew Berry == DIE HARD Lakers fan. I said it was an honest conversation dinkus. Maybe you should listen to it first.

<thread>

To be fair you have to understand, Simmons has been kind of cringeworthy in the past, just trying way too hard to break down any accomplishment by Kobe. It doesn't help that he has this whiny/nasaly voice.

BUT, I'm listening right now and it's been pretty good so far. Bout 30 minutes in.

[chitownsfinest]

To be fair you have to understand, Simmons has been kind of cringeworthy in the past, just trying way too hard to break down any accomplishment by Kobe. It doesn't help that he has this whiny/nasaly voice.

BUT, I'm listening right now and it's been pretty good so far. Bout 30 minutes in.
Simmons lists Kobe as a top 15 player of all time and has stated in many of his articles that Kobe will be top 10 if leads LA to the title this season (which I agree on). He is much better then tools on ESPN like Jemele Hill and Hollinger and is one of the few credible ESPN writers still out there IMO.

[32MJ32]

I will give this a chance only because of your recommendation. If it sucks I am ripping down my indiefan23 posters and binning my indiefan23 throwback.

You have been warned.

[Allstar24]

Bill Simmons is a Boston homer. He's been hating on Kobe and the Lakers forever. He has no sense of objectivity. I would never click on that link.

[MaxFly]

Bill Simmons rationally talking about a Laker player? Someone is going to have to give me a recap... Unbelieveable.

[shadow]

i kinda enjoy his writing but the Celtics' homerism is hard to get past being a LA fan and all.

[puppychili]

Typical Laker fans. Only wants to listen to people that they agree with. I don't always agree with Simmons but I find him to be one of the best sports writers out there. He has given Kobe a lot of crap but he has also praised him when he's done well. I think what Laker fans don't like about Simmons is that most of his crticism of Kobe has been accurate.

It's a shame that most Laker fans would rather listen to Vic the Brick than Bill Simmons.

[indiefan23]

To be fair you have to understand, Simmons has been kind of cringeworthy in the past, just trying way too hard to break down any accomplishment by Kobe. It doesn't help that he has this whiny/nasaly voice.

BUT, I'm listening right now and it's been pretty good so far. Bout 30 minutes in.

Ya know, Kobe fan or not, you have to admit there is a whole lot to criticize him for. Kobe is controversial and polarizing for a reason. Simmons knows the league better then almost anyone and yea, he's not a fan of Kobe, but you have to respect him. If you listen to him and Berry break down Kobe here I don't think you can really say that even if a little bias, he's not being totally fair.

I flat out have 0 respect for anyone who writes off Bill Simmons. He's a bit of a genius in his own right and an unquestioned pioneer. Has anyone ever really accomplished the things he has or gained the influence he has as a sports columnist?

[indiefan23]

I will give this a chance only because of your recommendation. If it sucks I am ripping down my indiefan23 posters and binning my indiefan23 throwback.

You have been warned.

I think I'm throwing out the indiefan23 certificate of authenticity. I'd be shocked if you didn't like this discussion. I've never heard a more fair conversation about Kobe in my life. Totally balanced between two homers balancing each other to find the common reality between the extremes.

'n when you listen to Bill talk about Jack at the Laker games, you'll start to realize that he's much more of a fan of the Lakers and a pure fan of the game then you think. Its almost... touching, to be gay about it.

[indiefan23]

i kinda enjoy his writing but the Celtics' homerism is hard to get past being a LA fan and all.

Yea, that's fair enough huh. I like JA Adande, however his latest puff piece on the Lakers made me throw up in my mouth.

[indiefan23]

Bill Simmons is a Boston homer. He's been hating on Kobe and the Lakers forever. He has no sense of objectivity. I would never click on that link.

You mean like, he'd make his mind up about someone before seeing/listening to them? Yea I HATE people like that. :hammerhead:

[Allstar24]

You mean like, he'd make his mind up about someone before seeing/listening to them? Yea I HATE people like that. :hammerhead:
I used to read his articles but he turned out to be a terrible columnist. He admitted that he is a Boston homer...that's reason enough for me to boycott his stuff.

[shadow]

listened to a bit. They cancel each other out. Good call about Kobe forcing the 40 in G1. He basically screwed up his FG% trying to get 40 since he missed like 4 or 5 shots after he came in.

[indiefan23]

I used to read his articles but he turned out to be a terrible columnist. He admitted that he is a Boston homer...that's reason enough for me to boycott his stuff.

So, he admitted something that was obvious. Take it with a grain of salt and its easy to see he's an equal fan of basketball. He knows the league inside out and like I said just had the most honest discussion about Kobe I've heard in my entire life. Honest means fair and balanced. Its pretty easy to tell when he's being a homer and when he's being objective anyway. I think the reason so many Kobe fans can't stand him is because he tears him apart better then anyone. But then again when Kobe plays well he 'always' gives him credit. You'd know this if you wern't being a hypocrite.

[jmill]

Ya know, Kobe fan or not, you have to admit there is a whole lot to criticize him for. Kobe is controversial and polarizing for a reason. Simmons knows the league better then almost anyone and yea, he's not a fan of Kobe, but you have to respect him. If you listen to him and Berry break down Kobe here I don't think you can really say that even if a little bias, he's not being totally fair.

I flat out have 0 respect for anyone who writes off Bill Simmons. He's a bit of a genius in his own right and an unquestioned pioneer. Has anyone ever really accomplished the things he has or gained the influence he has as a sports columnist?

Yes, I'm very aware that Kobe is polarizing. That doesn't mean he hasn't come off extremely biased and irrational regarding Kobe in the past.

One example: All throughout the playoffs KG was doing that mean mug scowl on the bench, over and over. Had never done it before until these playoffs. Simmons never says a word about it.

Kobe starts doing it and Simmons rips into him immediately.

The guy is simply a big Celtics homer and he's way too biased to take seriously a large % of the time when regarding Kobe.

It was refreshing to see him not attack him nonstop for once though.

[indiefan23]

listened to a bit. They cancel each other out. Good call about Kobe forcing the 40 in G1. He basically screwed up his FG% trying to get 40 since he missed like 4 or 5 shots after he came in.

Yo Shadow, I think it gets better as it goes on honestly. They get into Kobe's childhood and progression before people knew who he was... Berry makes some really great points. Then they talk about Jack Nicholson and some other LA type things.

Oh yea, there's one really poignant part that I never used to agree with that I do now. Spike Lee is no longer on the list of NBA super fans and Jack has replaced him. I was a little shocked when I realized I agreed with that. I always used to think Spike was way over him. Menh now I spose.

[Mor'Fiyah]

So, he admitted something that was obvious. Take it with a grain of salt and its easy to see he's an equal fan of basketball. He knows the league inside out and like I said just had the most honest discussion about Kobe I've heard in my entire life. Honest means fair and balanced. Its pretty easy to tell when he's being a homer and when he's being objective anyway. I think the reason so many Kobe fans can't stand him is because he tears him apart better then anyone. But then again when Kobe plays well he 'always' gives him credit. You'd know this if you wern't being a hypocrite.

I disagree.

[quote="Simmons"]
4. I don't like him personally, which affects the way I think of him professionally.

(I will admit to being slightly guilty here. He hasn't been the greatest teammate this decade, both on and off the court. It's been documented ad nauseam, even in books by people paid to coach him. When he accidentally injured Andrew Bynum's knee recently, I found it interesting that Kobe's reaction was more "Crap, there goes my title!" than "Oh, no, my teammate is hurt

[indiefan23]

Yes, I'm very aware that Kobe is polarizing. That doesn't mean he hasn't come off extremely biased and irrational regarding Kobe in the past.

One example: All throughout the playoffs KG was doing that mean mug scowl on the bench, over and over. Had never done it before until these playoffs. Simmons never says a word about it.

Kobe starts doing it and Simmons rips into him immediately.

The guy is simply a big Celtics homer and he's way too biased to take seriously a large % of the time when regarding Kobe.

It was refreshing to see him not attack him nonstop for once though.

Dude, KG has been making every angry insaneo face known to man since I started watching him in 'Sota. KG is completely insane. Kobe's scowl does look like he practiced it in a mirror and to Simmon's credit he said himself, yea, I'd practice a scowl. I still think he was totally fair to Kobe though and I've never seen him attack the guy non-stop.

He's picked the Lakers over Boston last year stating that the team with the best player will win a series when both teams are good and states that nearly every time he's compared the lakers to just about any other team in the league except the cavs. And in that regard he's stated for this 'entire' season that Lebron's improvement was totally due to him seeing Kobe's work ethic and dedication in the Olympics.

I think the things Simmons kills him for Kobe deserves and he's almost always rational. The part where they break down Kobe's fan base, and talk about you guys in this thread, that's absolutely fair and bang on. Its not really negative either, but kind of a neutral observation.

[indiefan23]

The above is an excerpt from an ESPN article Simmons wrote where he was being serious. Notice his bias in subjectively describing Kobe's reaction to Bynum's knee injury in a selfish-me first manner. He admits to not liking Bryant and then unfairly admonishes Bryant for something his bias makes him see as negative.

I agreed with him. Watch it:

hhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJ6URmhTLU&feature=related

The look on Kobe's face is not "Man, sorry! Are you okay?" Its god damn, I'm pissed. Kobe pulls his head out from the knees he's just destroyed, looks away from Bynum screaming in pain, goes FU@K, gets up and just walks away without even talking to the guy he just hurt on his own team, who's writhing and screaming in pain on the ground.

Heres another angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKwMU0u5SVg&feature=fvw

After staff get down and try to talk to Bynum, Kobe rolls his eyes and with a totally annoyed look on his face pretends to care and squats down. Never says a word, just watches for a couple seconds and gets up again totally pissed.

Then leaves it to the bench scrubs to help him off the court. He clearly does not give a damn about his own teammate and if you think differently you're the one who's totally bias, not Bill Simmons who called it exactly like it was. You don't think that has anything to do with the half-assed effort from Bynum upon his return? I do.

[Mor'Fiyah]

I agreed with him. Watch it:

hhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJ6URmhTLU&feature=related

The look on Kobe's face is not "Man, sorry! Are you okay?" Its god damn, I'm pissed. Kobe pulls his head out from the knees he's just destroyed, looks away from Bynum screaming in pain, goes FU@K, gets up and just walks away without even talking to the guy he just hurt on his own team, who's writhing and screaming in pain on the ground.

Heres another angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKwMU0u5SVg&feature=fvw

After staff get down and try to talk to Bynum, Kobe rolls his eyes and with a totally annoyed look on his face pretends to care and squats down. Never says a word, just watches for a couple seconds and gets up again totally pissed.

Then leaves it to the bench scrubs to help him off the court. He clearly does not give a damn about his own teammate and if you think differently you're the one who's totally bias, not Bill Simmons who called it exactly like it was. You don't think that has anything to do with the half-assed effort from Bynum upon his return? I do.

Wow.

And here is the problem with someone who is biased... they don't even know they are. How can you read someone's expressions and then determine exactly what they are thinking and then pass it off as the truth and judge them based on that truth?! Especially after claiming you don't like the person or their personality?! Since when was journalism about reading minds instead of the facts?

Its weird how you can't see how someone who actually likes Bryant would see the very same video and see someone who is concerned for his teammate and pissed that he was the one who might have messed it up for both of them. Its subjective based on whether you think highly of the guy or not. Its not an objective and absolute truth unless you can read minds.

Absurd.

Simmons is a known Bryant hater. He goes out of his way to attack Kobe and admits to it. He doesn't like Kobe and admits to it. And he does not like Laker fans because they in turn send him hate mail and complaints so much so that he writes entire articles aimed at these fans.

[indiefan23]

Wow.

And here is the problem with someone who is biased... they don't even know they are. How can you read someone's expressions and then determine exactly what they are thinking and then pass it off as the truth and judge them based on that truth?! Especially after claiming you don't like the person or their personality?! Since when was journalism about reading minds instead of the facts?
f
Since when is Bill Simmons a journalist? The dude is a blogger.

I don't know, I see a guy get up coldly and walk away with a pissed off annoyed expression on his face, I tend to think those are the emotions he's feeling. Where do you get concern for his teammate out of that? Did you watch it? He gets up, does not say a word to Bynum, and walks away. Squats down and walks away again.


Its weird how you can't see how someone who actually likes Bryant would see the very same video and see someone who is concerned for his teammate and pissed that he was the one who might have messed it up for both of them. Its subjective based on whether you think highly of the guy or not. Its not an objective and absolute truth unless you can read minds.

Unless you can read minds, please. Based on a lifetime of watching people and attaching those actions to their feelings Kobe did not even show an ounce of remorse or concern until he realized it looked that way, got down to look at someone else trying to help Bynum for a second and got up again. Sure, its possible that Kobe expresses remorse and concern by actually acting cold and uncaring, but its much more likely he just does not give a damn, would you not say?


Simmons is a known Bryant hater. He goes out of his way to attack Kobe and admits to it. He doesn't like Kobe and admits to it. And he does not like Laker fans because they in turn send him hate mail and complaints so much so that he writes entire articles aimed at these fans.

He didn't admit he goes out of his way to attack him. He said he's slightly bias because he's not a fan of his but it does not prevent him from judging the guy fairly. You act like the fact he admits bias is a knock against his partiality. If someone admits and acknowledges his biases it allows them to factor the bias into their opinion and actually give a more rational analysis. Simmons is aware of his homerism to Boston and his dislike of Kobe and brings it up often to check himself. And CONSTANTLY talks about Kobe in terms of best and has said Kobe will be one of the 10 greatest ever if he wins this title. He said it would be 'cemented' and 'obvious'. Thats not hate, at all.

You're a Kobe homer: do you do the same thing? You just said that a video of a guy blowing out his teammates knee, getting up and walking away without even saying a word to him or helping the poor kid off the court looked to you like a concerned leader showing empathy for his teammates well being. I mean, you're a laker/kobe homer, you know this right?

[andgar923]

Not sure if its the most honest, but it was entertaining.

Thanks for the link.

They ran the gamut from Nicholson, Clinton, and Bellushi and it was all entertaining.

Now...... I have a question, that's related to the convo.

What happens to Nicholson's seat?

And do they hang something in the rafters in his honor?

I think the seat should be retired, available only to his family and his name on the rafter.

[jmill]

I agreed with him. Watch it:

hhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJ6URmhTLU&feature=related

The look on Kobe's face is not "Man, sorry! Are you okay?" Its god damn, I'm pissed. Kobe pulls his head out from the knees he's just destroyed, looks away from Bynum screaming in pain, goes FU@K, gets up and just walks away without even talking to the guy he just hurt on his own team, who's writhing and screaming in pain on the ground.

Heres another angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKwMU0u5SVg&feature=fvw

After staff get down and try to talk to Bynum, Kobe rolls his eyes and with a totally annoyed look on his face pretends to care and squats down. Never says a word, just watches for a couple seconds and gets up again totally pissed.

Then leaves it to the bench scrubs to help him off the court. He clearly does not give a damn about his own teammate and if you think differently you're the one who's totally bias, not Bill Simmons who called it exactly like it was. You don't think that has anything to do with the half-assed effort from Bynum upon his return? I do.


I love that this is already turning into a Kobe bashing thread. So great.

[jmill]

Dude, KG has been making every angry insaneo face known to man since I started watching him in 'Sota. KG is completely insane. Kobe's scowl does look like he practiced it in a mirror and to Simmon's credit he said himself, yea, I'd practice a scowl. I still think he was totally fair to Kobe though and I've never seen him attack the guy non-stop.

He's picked the Lakers over Boston last year stating that the team with the best player will win a series when both teams are good and states that nearly every time he's compared the lakers to just about any other team in the league except the cavs. And in that regard he's stated for this 'entire' season that Lebron's improvement was totally due to him seeing Kobe's work ethic and dedication in the Olympics.

I think the things Simmons kills him for Kobe deserves and he's almost always rational. The part where they break down Kobe's fan base, and talk about you guys in this thread, that's absolutely fair and bang on. Its not really negative either, but kind of a neutral observation.

lol

I don't really take your opinion seriously, just judging by the general tone of your posts regarding Kobe. No offense.

Yes though, Kobe has his faults. I'm a pretty objective person and have no problem admitting he's done some dumb things in the past. He's an athlete who works very hard and happens to be very good at basketball. As a result I enjoy watching him play basketball.

I don't try to make assumptions about him as a person from the limited information I have available. Good or bad. If you want to praise him, cool. If you want to break him down and criticize, cool. Doesn't interest me.

[andgar923]

They made a mistake tho.

Jack Nicholson used to fly to Bulls games and sit front seat and cheer the Bulls.

He was happy for the Bulls when they won in L.A. and was seen congratulating Phil and Mike.

The best basketball fan is Jim Goldstein:

http://dianepernet.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/15/jim_in_silver.jpg

He attends and watches more games than anybody else in the history of sports.

[indiefan23]

Not sure if its the most honest, but it was entertaining.

Thanks for the link.

They ran the gamut from Nicholson, Clinton, and Bellushi and it was all entertaining.

Now...... I have a question, that's related to the convo.

What happens to Nicholson's seat?

And do they hang something in the rafters in his honor?

I think the seat should be retired, available only to his family and his name on the rafter.

I dunno, I think two guys from the two most diametric fan bases in the league had a conversation about it and found lots of common ground and each ceeded a lot of the other's stronger points. Honest or not, you will NOT see that every day on ISH. ;0

Jack's seat, yea, maybe just hang it right in the rafters with a pair of his sunglasses sitting on the seat. How cool would that be? I also really, really like the idea of playing Jack at the end of every celeb sightings sequence forever. That would be an honor. Anyway, glad you liked it. Was that the first podcast you listened to of his? If so there's a whole archive full of them. Some of them are about as good as sports discussion gets.

[andgar923]

I dunno, I think two guys from the two most diametric fan bases in the league had a conversation about it and found lots of common ground and each ceeded a lot of the other's stronger points. Honest or not, you will NOT see that every day on ISH. ;0

Jack's seat, yea, maybe just hang it right in the rafters with a pair of his sunglasses sitting on the seat. How cool would that be? I also really, really like the idea of playing Jack at the end of every celeb sightings sequence forever. That would be an honor. Anyway, glad you liked it. Was that the first podcast you listened to of his? If so there's a whole archive full of them. Some of them are about as good as sports discussion gets.

Well... it was probably the most honest convo I've heard.

But I usually have this with my boys.

Nevertheless...... it was entertaining and yes it was my first time, thanks for the link.

I can't listen to this for so long, I gotta listen to music.

[monkeypox]

After staff get down and try to talk to Bynum, Kobe rolls his eyes and with a totally annoyed look on his face pretends to care and squats down. Never says a word, just watches for a couple seconds and gets up again totally pissed.

Then leaves it to the bench scrubs to help him off the court. He clearly does not give a damn about his own teammate and if you think differently you're the one who's totally bias, not Bill Simmons who called it exactly like it was. You don't think that has anything to do with the half-assed effort from Bynum upon his return? I do.

Pretends to care? Really think about what you've said objectively and try to separate the facts from the bias. Seriously. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person.

[jmill]

I'm dissapointed in myself for forgetting who indiefan was before I posted in this thread.

Granted, he made it obvious within a few posts that he's biased against Kobe but I didn't realize it initially.

Past indiefan posts regarding Kobe.


I'm way to bias against Kobe to accept that its him,
so I don't really want to talk about the Lakers in terms of Kobe, that's way too over done in all discussions.


JMill, where are you? I was wondering if the team lost last night, or if Kobe lost for his team?

I mean, Gasol shot 72% and Bynum shot 86%, so did like, they lose the game, or did Kobe jacking up 10 3 point shots and only hitting 2 of them do it. I could not think of a better example game of everything I said. At some point Laker fans are just going to accept that while Kobe is a pretty great individual player, he's actually just not that great a 'basketball' player. He's being out played by Melo in this series. More then anything, Kobe's true prime is over, and this just has to be accepted.


And btw, Kobe averaged 34/6/6 on 47% shooting in that series, Melo averaged 27/5/4 on 40% shooting. Okay.



Who shot ja Kobe fans? Hit'em Up!

No ones come back to this thread to explain to me how the 'best player in the works, screw that EVER!!!!' does not drive to the hole ONCE for over a whole quarter, yet is not past his prime and settling for 3's.

Is that a pin drop


Yea, but like I said I'm totally bias so there's no point in talking about Kobe.
I think the guy is mentally as weak as it gets and thats a bias I'm accepting... nothing is gonna change my mind on it really,
so I'm wondering who else is there?
I've never really thought about it before so I'm not sure at all who it is.


Hey, I hate Kobe, I'm not hiding it, but I'm not making things up. Kobe blew that series.
I watched the games and saw him trying to live by the 3, and it killed them.
When he stayed under control in the earlier games they had a shot.
Again, I really don't see whats so crazy about that interpretation

[indiefan23]

lol

I don't really take your opinion seriously, just judging by the general tone of your posts regarding Kobe. No offense.

None taken I spose, but I give Kobe credit where its due. I can tell you this jmill, if you see me complimenting Kobe on a good game (like I did for the last two denver games, where he was crazy good) it worth a hell of a lot more. Its like scoring the hot chick instead of the easy one at the bar. Harder to get cuz they've got different standards, but you know its better once they're drunk and heading back to your place.

I'm unfair to Kobe but I'm consistent. If he performs well I acknowledge it and I hold most all players to the same standards. And I will say this, Kobe is massively one of the most interesting players of all time. No one knows Kobe and I don't think he knows himself. He's kind of the Hamlet of sports.

Anyway, yea, I hate him, but I honestly love to hate him and I fully admit the NBA would not be the same without Kobe Bryant. For a lot of reasons other then what his homers would state though. I can also tell you that if I didn't hate him I'd be totally inconsistent.


Yes though, Kobe has his faults. I'm a pretty objective person and have no problem admitting he's done some dumb things in the past.

That's cool. You should take me seriously. I hate Kobe, and I think he's over rated, but I've got no problem admitting he's been nothing short of spectacular in countless games.


He's an athlete who works very hard and happens to be very good at basketball. As a result I enjoy watching him play basketball.

I don't try to make assumptions about him as a person from the limited information I have available. Good or bad. If you want to praise him, cool. If you want to break him down and criticize, cool. Doesn't interest me.

I spose. I'd argue WTF are you doing in a place like this then. Its almost all it is. But I appreciate the input.

[indiefan23]

Pretends to care? Really think about what you've said objectively and try to separate the facts from the bias. Seriously. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person.

Well, I dunno, if I just blew out my teammates knee and I cared I'd put my hand on his shoulder and say "are you okay?" even thought it was obvious he was in pain. I'd also make sure I was the one to help him of the court. I wouldn't get up and walk away. Is that unreasonable? I mean, I'm asking an honest question, is it?

[jmill]

I mean if Kobe is overrated, it's only by a small % of fans who think he's better than MJ/Lebron or something.

But then almost every player is overrated.

I think you'd be amazed how many people have told me that Allen Iverson is the best player since Jordan because " he led the league in scoring".

If anyone is overrated, it's someone like AI.

[monkeypox]

Well, I dunno, if I just blew out my teammates knee and I cared I'd put my hand on his shoulder and say "are you okay?" even thought it was obvious he was in pain. I'd also make sure I was the one to help him of the court. I wouldn't get up and walk away. Is that unreasonable? I mean, I'm asking an honest question, is it?


How on earth could you possibly know if someone was pretending to care? Seriously. It's like bad fan fiction. You don't think you're injecting just a LITTLE bias in to your horrible retelling of the event?

"Kobe smashing into Bynums knee with total disregard for human safety, glances dismissively to his demolished 'teammate' before he selfishly preens before the referees in order to get yet another bogus call in his favor. Then... as an afterthought... as though remembering some tiny bit of ignored advice... he feigns human emotion and crouches down in mock compassion for Bynum while in reality was only stretching his calves."

That's about as non-biased as what you wrote.

Listening to the radio show right now. Most honest discussion? This is Bill Simmons complaining about Kobe and his guest trying to be an apologist. It's honest if you believe everything they're saying.

[LakersLaLaLand]

Bill Simmons???.....Thread/

Simmons is alright.

Matthew Berry is a pompous tool. Mr ill-talented Bobo.

/end of thread

[indiefan23]

I'm dissapointed in myself for forgetting who indiefan was before I posted in this thread.

Granted, he made it obvious within a few posts that he's biased against Kobe but I didn't realize it initially.

Past indiefan posts regarding Kobe.

Thats hardly fair. You're cherry picking quotes from a thread I started to talk about the rest of the Lakers instead of Kobe. I didn't want it to devolve into yet another negative Kobe thread so I just said up front, hey, I don't like Kobe and think he's weak for a 100% subjective reason I really don't want to discuss, so like, lets not talk about Kobe, but who's the toughest Laker besides Kobe?

And you trolled my primarily non-hating thread with Kobe BS. Now you're back in this thread, which is totally not negative in any way about him in any way. I listened to that conversation and felt the back/fourth made me respect him a little more outside of the hesucks/hesawesome paradigm and thought it would be cool to share with the ISH love/hate community.


And btw, Kobe averaged 34/6/6 on 47% shooting in that series, Melo averaged 27/5/4 on 40% shooting. Okay.

Hmm... I said that before I'd watched the last two or three games. Melo started that series great. And you know what, Kobe played awesome in the last two games by specifically stopping the things I criticized him for and doing the thing I said he should be doing. Previously he did shoot 2 for 10 from 3 and he did spend well over an entire quarter without a single attempt from the paint. I said stop chucking 3's. Start driving the lane like he did at the end of game 2 to force the defense to collapse. Start passing to your teammates.

He stopped settling for jumpers and did that and the team has been playing much better ever since and I gave the guy his due for it. They should have cleaned Houston's clocks. They should have swept or 4-1'ed Denver. If they were playing this way they would have.

[LakersLaLaLand]

Did you guys hear Bill Simmons interview with Jerry West?

He was taking pot shots at Jerry West left and right under the premise of historical journalism. What a f'in jerk. West was bobbing and weaving with ease around Simmons without breaking a sweat or slightly losing his temper.

Simmons gained but lost more respect from me for his low class swipes at former Laker Jerry West.

Boston Red Sox cheated Bill. Eat it. Explain that to your son and father.

[jmill]

I didn't "cherrypick" anything, I chose those posts only because you admit to being biased/hating Kobe in them.

And fyi, I post on this forum because I love the NBA. I like watching and talking basketball.

I DONT like hating on players constantly and trying to break them down ala PleeezBelieve/BruceBlitz and I thought that's where you were going with this thread so I responded accordingly.

If I was wrong, my bad. It's just tiring to see people beat the same dead horse so often.

[indiefan23]

How on earth could you possibly know if someone was pretending to care? Seriously. It's like bad fan fiction. You don't think you're injecting just a LITTLE bias in to your horrible retelling of the event?

"Kobe smashing into Bynums knee with total disregard for human safety, glances dismissively to his demolished 'teammate' before he selfishly preens before the referees in order to get yet another bogus call in his favor. Then... as an afterthought... as though remembering some tiny bit of ignored advice... he feigns human emotion and crouches down in mock compassion for Bynum while in reality was only stretching his calves."

That's about as non-biased as what you wrote.

That's not what I wrote at all. Kobe hurt Bynum's knee by acident when trying to score and got up without even saying anything to him and walked away while the guy was screaming in pain on the floor. Sure I have bias, but I can't see how bias makes me miss him put a hand on Bynum's shoulder or say something to him or call the medical team over. He sits on the floor and throws his hands down in disgust. Gets up and walks away. I mean, if you can show me something differently I'll happily accept it. What am I missing?


Listening to the radio show right now. Most honest discussion? This is Bill Simmons complaining about Kobe and his guest trying to be an apologist. It's honest if you believe everything they're saying.

I don't think his guest is being an apologist. Simmons states that if Kobe wins, which he thinks he will do, Kobe is automatically top 10 all time without doubt. I don't think he's complaining. He refers to Kobe's incredible work ethic and regularly calls him the hardest working player in the league and talks about how instead of going out he stays there to watch tape in his room. Simmons also says that Kobe got the look in the 3'rd quarter and he knew, naw, he wasn't going to lose this game. He also agreed he 'loves' how serious Kobe takes the game. And he said it with pretty unbridled enthusiasm. He wants more of it.

Like I said, I think its a discussion going over some of the love and the hate and finding middle ground. That's why I thought it was honest.

[indiefan23]

I didn't "cherrypick" anything, I chose those posts only because you admit to being biased/hating Kobe in them.

I don't hide that I hate Kobe at all or ever. Nor do I pretend not to. Hating and loving players is part of sports. Its not a fault or something.

I hate algebra but I can still y=mx+b with the best of them. You neglected to include my posts from that same thread where I came on to say that Kobe played great though didn't you.

The main point is this. I hate Kobe. I'm not stupid.


And fyi, I post on this forum because I love the NBA. I like watching and talking basketball.

I DONT like hating on players constantly and trying to break them down ala PleeezBelieve/BruceBlitz and I thought that's where you were going with this thread so I responded accordingly.

If I was wrong, my bad. It's just tiring to see people beat the same dead horse so often.

Yep, you were wrong. This was more, hey, everyone who just homer/hater fights (and I've been guilty myself, but its fun sometimes), listen to this, there is a better way.

[indiefan23]

Did you guys hear Bill Simmons interview with Jerry West?

He was taking pot shots at Jerry West left and right under the premise of historical journalism. What a f'in jerk. West was bobbing and weaving with ease around Simmons without breaking a sweat or slightly losing his temper.

Simmons gained but lost more respect from me for his low class swipes at former Laker Jerry West.

Boston Red Sox cheated Bill. Eat it. Explain that to your son and father.

Waa??? What low class swipes? West totally had a good conversation with Bill. And why do you read all the columns of someone you think is so full of crap? I bet you're even saying that because House made fun of him in his podcast about it, right? ;0

[LakersLaLaLand]

Waa??? What low class swipes? West totally had a good conversation with Bill. And why do you read all the columns of someone you think is so full of crap? I bet you're even saying that because House made fun of him in his podcast about it, right? ;0

I didn't hear the House podcast. I don't follow everything.

I listen and read because he is entertaining and smart. Along with a bunch of other things.

Cmon...Indiefan...Simmons was taking pot shots at Jerry West. Mr Clutch was gracious enough to roll with the punches without taking swipes back at Bill.

Seriously though.

[indiefan23]

I mean if Kobe is overrated, it's only by a small % of fans who think he's better than MJ/Lebron or something.

But then almost every player is overrated.

I think you'd be amazed how many people have told me that Allen Iverson is the best player since Jordan because " he led the league in scoring".

If anyone is overrated, it's someone like AI.

Well, no, not really, cuz AI get shat upon on a regular basis. Its pretty much accepted that his career is a failure. I can't explain it any better then this.

During a game there was an NBA poll taken on what player in history was the best playoff performer. Out of all players, Jordan got 40%. Bird got 6%. Magic got 4%. Kobe... 34%. This is when he was tied in a series and in danger of losing cuz a 25 million dollar roster forced a game 7 and he'd never won a title as the main guy on his team, and, the past two playoff finals he shot in the low 30's and something like 25% from 3. I'm not saying it to hate on him but just think that 34% compared to magic at 4% and bird at 6% is a little ridiculously over rated.

[indiefan23]

I didn't hear the House podcast. I don't follow everything.

I listen and read because he is entertaining and smart. Along with a bunch of other things.

Cmon...Indiefan...Simmons was taking pot shots at Jerry West. Mr Clutch was gracious enough to roll with the punches without taking swipes back at Bill.

Seriously though.

You used almost the exact line that House used to make fun of him... anyway... I don't remember too many pot shots at all. Like, didn't he bring up Jerry West with standing up to the owners and changing the lives of every player forever? Or Jerry winning MVP while losing the finals as a huge sign of respect from the celtics and that no other player drew that respect from them? I dunno, I don't remember pot shots, maybe you can point them out.

[JM720]

I agreed with him. Watch it:

hhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJ6URmhTLU&feature=related

The look on Kobe's face is not "Man, sorry! Are you okay?" Its god damn, I'm pissed. Kobe pulls his head out from the knees he's just destroyed, looks away from Bynum screaming in pain, goes FU@K, gets up and just walks away without even talking to the guy he just hurt on his own team, who's writhing and screaming in pain on the ground.

Heres another angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKwMU0u5SVg&feature=fvw

After staff get down and try to talk to Bynum, Kobe rolls his eyes and with a totally annoyed look on his face pretends to care and squats down. Never says a word, just watches for a couple seconds and gets up again totally pissed.

Then leaves it to the bench scrubs to help him off the court. He clearly does not give a damn about his own teammate and if you think differently you're the one who's totally bias, not Bill Simmons who called it exactly like it was. You don't think that has anything to do with the half-assed effort from Bynum upon his return? I do.

:wtf: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[LakersLaLaLand]

You used almost the exact line that House used to make fun of him... anyway... I don't remember too many pot shots at all. Like, didn't he bring up Jerry West with standing up to the owners and changing the lives of every player forever? Or Jerry winning MVP while losing the finals as a huge sign of respect from the celtics and that no other player drew that respect from them? I dunno, I don't remember pot shots, maybe you can point them out.

Ok...nothing verbatim here.

Number 1 I agree there was a lot of great conversation in the podcast. So I don't want to discredit a great 40-45 minute interview because of 5-8 minutes of Bill Simmons being 90% Celtic fan & 10% journalist.

Bill cordially brought up low points to Jerry West's career under the mask of "good" journalism. Low blows Back-Back-Back-Back and I want to say even a 5th time.

Im drawing a bit of a blank...let me go back and litsen real quick.

For those who want to listen. Great stuff about the early development of the NBA.

http://sports.espn.go.com/stations/player?id=4226665

Made a comparison of 70-71 Jerry West to 66-67 West being less talented with a smug smerk coming across my Bose headset. Shameless plug.

Bringing up losing Game 7 against the Celtics. The year Jerry West won the Finals MVP as a finals loser. Saying he played SO INCREBIDLE. Too bad you(jerry west) had to lose.

Brings up the Lakers having serious chances to win. But emphasizing that they lost in 69 and 62. Knowing Jerry West is a big time competitor. Who takes every win and loss personally. And holds lifetime grudges.

Mentioning Bill Russell wins 11 of 13 years and throws it in Jerry West's face.

Then he brings up the 69 team agains. Saying West had a great team in 69. Too bad you LOST!!! Bill didn't say it out loud. But the losing is insinuated.

I know these are all facts. But still. Low blows.

Everyone knows it hurts to get socked in the balls. When we fight in the street. Men don't aim for the nuts.

Our homies don't bring up ex-girlfriends especially the sourest breakups.

Bill Simmons went for the left nut. The right nut. And the head of the dodger dog repeatedly. And he slipped in the "love of jerry wests life" that got away.

Cmon Indie. Simmons was shooting Daggers at Jerry Wests steel ball sack.

Tink. Tink.

[indiefan23]

Ok...nothing verbatim here.

Number 1 I agree there was a lot of great conversation in the podcast. So I don't want to discredit a great 40-45 minute interview because of 5-8 minutes of Bill Simmons being 90% Celtic fan & 10% journalist.

Bill cordially brought up low points to Jerry West's career under the mask of "good" journalism. Low blows Back-Back-Back-Back and I want to say even a 5th time.

Im drawing a bit of a blank...let me go back and litsen real quick.

For those who want to listen.

http://sports.espn.go.com/stations/player?id=4226665

thats cool, I'm gonna listen too. I'd just like to point out that he opens it with "Its not often we get to have one of the 10 best players of all time and the actual logo of the nba on the podcast"... then follows with "you know, other then Kareem who's wildly under rated, I think you're probably the most under rated player of all time."

I've also gotta point out Jerry West's response "you know, I don't get into that, I don't compare myself to other players. I've never been like that."

[LakersLaLaLand]

I edited and entered the low blows in the above post.

[MaxFly]

I think what Laker fans don't like about Simmons is that most of his crticism of Kobe has been accurate.


Lol...

As a Celtics fan, I love his commentary on the Celts... um... sometimes... but Bill Simmons is a guy who, three years ago, when Bryant dropped 62 points on the Mavericks and sat out the 4th quarter, criticized Bryant for not playing the rest of the game "and robbing us of a historic moment" after he had previously criticized him for ballhogging all season.

A couple of weeks later, Bryant dropped the 81 point game, and Simmons flipped and then criticized him for ball hogging and not passing to his teammates enough. Bill doesn't have many rational bones in his body when it comes to the Lakers, and having read his work for years as a Celts fan, I can say this with certainty...

[LakersLaLaLand]

Lol...

As a Celtics fan, I love his commentary on the Celts... um... sometimes... but Bill Simmons is a guy who, three years ago, when Bryant dropped 62 points on the Mavericks and sat out the 4th quarter, criticized Bryant for not playing the rest of the game "and robbing us of a historic moment" after he had previously criticized him for ballhogging all season.

A couple of weeks later, Bryant dropped the 81 point game, and Simmons flipped and then criticized him for ball hogging and not passing to his teammates enough. Bill doesn't have many rational bones in his body when it comes to the Lakers, and having read his work for years as a Celts fan, I can say this with certainty...

Max Fly, What did you think of the Jerry West interview?

[indiefan23]

Made a comparison of 70-71 Jerry West to 66-67 West being less talented with a smug smerk coming across my Bose headset. Shameless plug.

Hmm... West seemed to agree though and listed all the things that had slowed him down. I suppose, but I don't think only asking powder puff questions only touching on the good times should really be expected.


Bringing up losing Game 7 against the Celtics. The year Jerry West won the Finals MVP as a finals loser. Saying he played SO INCREBIDLE. Too bad you(jerry west) had to lose.

I dunno, he was talking about the intense level of respect the celtics had for Jerry West.


Brings up the Lakers having serious chances to win. But emphasizing that they lost in 69 and 62. Knowing Jerry West is a big time competitor. Who takes every win and loss personally. And holds lifetime grudges.

Jerry West brought up that there was 2 times he felt they had a serious shot to win.


Mentioning Bill Russell wins 11 of 13 years and throws it in Jerry West's face.

Sort of, but he follows it up with "and you ended up on a team like that, the 72 Lakers... well you won 33 straight, which in my opinion, is one of the top 5 records of all time, Yea (the greatest team record) its just, I don't know how you did it, but in 1972 without charters and travel, I just don't see how you do it"

"Then he brings up the 69 team agains. Saying West had a great team in 69. Too bad you LOST!!! Bill didn't say it out loud. But the losing is insinuated.

I know these are all facts. But still. Low blows.[/quote]

That last one, yea, okay, I think that one was a dig. I think he couldn't really help himself. Honestly, I didn't even notice the little laugh he had. But then he brought up the garden getting knocked down.


Everyone knows it hurts to get socked in the balls. When we fight in the street. Men don't aim for the nuts. Our homies don't bring up ex-girlfriends especially the sour breakups.

Bill Simmons went for the left nut. The right nut. And the head of the weiner repeatedly. And he slipped the "love of jerry wests life" that got away.

Cmon Indie. Simmons was shooting Daggers at Jerry Wests steel ball sack.

Tink. Tink.

You think so? I dunno... his pod cast is a produced show. So that most likely means that Jerry was pre-interviewed and knew what kinds of questions he was going to be asked in some form or other. I dunno, overall, I think he covered most of West's career. West did lose a lot to the Celtics. I think West came to terms with it all honestly. He doesn't sound angry or needled. I think trying to say BS was trying to intentionally get under his skin is a little far fetched. Dude is a Boston fan but I think they've both put the past behind them and came together for a great interview.

I think there was one dig, but honestly, it was almost just banter and West was pretty right in how he came back from it. No? It is a great interview. West's perspective on the game is cool and he's total class.

[jmill]

Well, no, not really, cuz AI get shat upon on a regular basis. Its pretty much accepted that his career is a failure. I can't explain it any better then this.

You missed my point.

I'm telling you for a fact that I've had alot of casual NBA fans tell me that Allen Iverson IS the best player since Jordan retired.

Better than Duncan, better than Lebron, Shaq, Kobe, anyone you want to name.

So YES really, he is overrated, not by you, but by alot of people who don't follow the game that closely.

Just like Kobe is overrated when casual fans say he's better than MJ or that he's the GOAT or that he's clearly better than Lebron or w/e.

I mean there's a reason that Allen Iverson made the all star this game ( and started, lol), and it's not because he deserved it.

[godofgods]

**** Kobe. Bill Simmons was definitely drunk in that conversation.

[indiefan23]

Lol...

As a Celtics fan, I love his commentary on the Celts... um... sometimes... but Bill Simmons is a guy who, three years ago, when Bryant dropped 62 points on the Mavericks and sat out the 4th quarter, criticized Bryant for not playing the rest of the game "and robbing us of a historic moment" after he had previously criticized him for ballhogging all season.

A couple of weeks later, Bryant dropped the 81 point game, and Simmons flipped and then criticized him for ball hogging and not passing to his teammates enough. Bill doesn't have many rational bones in his body when it comes to the Lakers, and having read his work for years as a Celts fan, I can say this with certainty...

I think you're kind of right, but there is a big difference between those two games. The Dallas game was vs a really good team. The Raptors game was vs a horrible terrible team. Probably the worst team in the league. Its a subtle difference, but its there.

Just a note on Kobe's 60 point games... and call it hate if you want, but all his high scoring games come at the sacrifice of the rest of his game. 4 3 3 2 0 are his dime numbers. Shaq's only got one 60 point game, but he's also got 23 rebounds in it. Yea, theres a bit of hate in what I just said but theres a bit of truth also. Of all the 60 point games in the last 15 years he's dead last in assists except that 23 baord shaq game.

[indiefan23]

You missed my point.

I'm telling you for a fact that I've had alot of casual NBA fans tell me that Allen Iverson IS the best player since Jordan retired.

Better than Duncan, better than Lebron, Shaq, Kobe, anyone you want to name.

So YES really, he is overrated, not by you, but by alot of people who don't follow the game that closely.

Just like Kobe is overrated when casual fans say he's better than MJ or that he's the GOAT or that he's clearly better than Lebron or w/e.

I mean there's a reason that Allen Iverson made the all star this game ( and started, lol), and it's not because he deserved it.

Okay, I did miss your point. I think AI is easily one of the best since Jordan, and one of the most fearless if that counts. He's not the best though. Best little man. You could say arguably, but that's really admitting its not obvious and if its not obvious it ain't. So yea, thats over rating.

I've still gotta say though, 34% of nba fans in a poll are not responding that AI is the GOAT play off performer of all time. IMHO, any player not named o magic, bird or jordan getting 34% of that vote is drastically the most over rated player of all time. Its really got little to do with hate on Kobe but the reality of modern fans.

[indiefan23]

**** Kobe. Bill Simmons was definitely drunk in that conversation.

I kind of agree. I think he's giving Kobe too much credit. But its interesting you know. Its really because he's a celtic fan. Think about it.

Bill Simmons, a life long Celtic fan, has been claiming that his favorite celtic players have been way greater then everyone else for years and years, especially Bill Russell, based on the number of championships they won. He's been saying "yea, but who's got the rings" for his whole life to get himself out of arguments forever. Now he's tied to claiming anyone who wins x amount of rings as being automatically great cuz he's painted himself into a corner with a lifetime full of justifying his celtics love on it and winning cuz no one has more rings then the celts.

So now he's tied into this ridiculous idea that if Kobe wins 4 games he's an all time top 10 great, and if he loses he's not, which is just so ridiculous. I've compared Kobe to Jordan a wack of times but u know what, I don't think I've ever once said "Man, he's just not got the rings." I think its one of the most arbitrary ways to rank anything when a player's luck has more to do with winning a ring then all other factors combined. I've always thought players should be ranked on how they play the game and results relative to their circumstances, not just results overall.

I dunno, are any of you Kobe fans here with me after years of hearing BS arguments about Jordan's rings meaning Kobe sucks?

[bruceblitz]

Its really too bad ISH can't even come close to approaching this. I think its a maturity thing. Bill Simmons and Matthew Berry really do this Kobe subject justice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/podcast/archive?id=2864045
Kobe is flat out overrated.

[Horatio33]

Bruceblitz, im not a fan of Kobe, im a Spurs fan, but come on, Kobe is a great player. not as good as Jordan, but who is? just give it a rest, im sick of entering threads and having you turn it into a Jordan v Kobe little girls arguement. you hate Kobe, we get it. move on. the Kobe fans get on my nerves too, but learn to ignore it, like i wish i could ignore you. the more you argue it, the more the Kobe fans argue much harder for Kobe being better. get a brain bruceblitz.

[bruceblitz]

Bruceblitz, im not a fan of Kobe, im a Spurs fan, but come on, Kobe is a great player. not as good as Jordan, but who is? just give it a rest, im sick of entering threads and having you turn it into a Jordan v Kobe little girls arguement. you hate Kobe, we get it. move on. the Kobe fans get on my nerves too, but learn to ignore it, like i wish i could ignore you. the more you argue it, the more the Kobe fans argue much harder for Kobe being better. get a brain bruceblitz.
Oh let's see here, nobody actually looks at Kobe's game by game performance and lack of consistency. They prop him up to Jordan status and they leap frog his legacy over the legacies of true legends.

Rated higher than he performs = overrated. It's simple.

[indiefan23]

Oh let's see here, nobody actually looks at Kobe's game by game performance and lack of consistency. They prop him up to Jordan status and they leap frog his legacy over the legacies of true legends.

Rated higher than he performs = overrated. It's simple.

Ya know, I'm with you, but I agree with him. This thread is not about comparing Kobe to Jordan but about being fair to the guy for a change in a two way street kind of thing so you shouldn't troll it.

[Horatio33]

just give it a rest blitz, you're 33 years old!

[bruceblitz]

Ya know, I'm with you, but I agree with him. This thread is not about comparing Kobe to Jordan but about being fair to the guy for a change in a two way street kind of thing so you shouldn't troll it.
All good.

[seanlakers]

The internet breeds all kinds of misinformation and bad commentary. MJ is a legend. Kobe still has a great chance to achieve legend status.

No one ever said all legends are equal. I am extremely happy to have a player like Mr. Bean in Tinseltown. I will be extremely said the day he leaves/retires.

Some fans need to find perspective and enjoy what they have right now and forget the past. MJ is the past. Kobe is the present. LeBron is the future. That is how I look at it. It keeps me sane.

[MaxFly]

Max Fly, What did you think of the Jerry West interview?

I haven't listened to it. Look, I like good, honest basketball discourse and Bill Simmons has proven time and time again that he's incapable of providing that when talking about a team not based on Boston or New England. He's a fan first and a journalist second... that's his schtick... He allows his personal biases to color his analysis, and as a result, it's hard to take him seriously and hard not to expect the worst when you do find him talking about the Lakers or Kobe Bryant in particular. He doesn't like the guy and has boldly admitted in the past that it affects the way he judges Bryant's play. When I read his work, it's generally only for Celtic focussed content. Almost anything else would be a waste of my time... and trust me, I know from experience.

[MaxFly]

I think you're kind of right, but there is a big difference between those two games. The Dallas game was vs a really good team. The Raptors game was vs a horrible terrible team. Probably the worst team in the league. Its a subtle difference, but its there.


Simmons' points in either commentary really had nothing to do with the teams involved. When the Lakers were up by 30 or so in the Mavs game and Bryant sat down with 62, Simmons criticized him for not coming back in and continuing to shoot. He said Bryant had disrespected fans by not giving them a more historic performance... (this was with the Lakers up by 30 or so).

When Bryant scored 81 and brought the Lakers back from something like 18 down vs. the Raptors, Simmons criticized Bryant for shooting too much and not passing the ball to his teammates... and then stat padding by continuing to shoot when the Lakers got the lead.

[indiefan23]

All good.

Coolness. Appriciated. Feel free to join in. You should listen to the podcast if you have not already. Its pretty great.

[LakersLaLaLand]

Kobe is flat out overrated.

Bruce Blitz post are flat out overrated by Bruce Blitz.

[indiefan23]

Simmons' points in either commentary really had nothing to do with the teams involved. When the Lakers were up by 30 or so in the Mavs game and Bryant sat down with 62, Simmons criticized him for not coming back in and continuing to shoot. He said Bryant had disrespected fans by not giving them a more historic performance... (this was with the Lakers up by 30 or so).

When Bryant scored 81 and brought the Lakers back from something like 18 down vs. the Raptors, Simmons criticized Bryant for shooting too much and not passing the ball to his teammates... and then stat padding by continuing to shoot when the Lakers got the lead.

Hmm... well, its not like its a great point or that I was overly adamant. I will say two things though.

1. Simmons is a dude who writes columns and has random conversations with people on podcasts. He writes perspectives. During the podcast with Berry he said "I mean, man, don't take me seriously I'm just a sports columnist" and he meant it. He writes things people will want to read. If anything I think the Dallas statement was a little more off. Either way, you and I will say things all the time to our friends that are complete BS... we aren't going to have them held in front of us if we realize we were probably worng.

2. Kobe took over 20 shots by the half and only had 2 assists and 2 boards putting him on pace for 40 shots. Only 9 players since 85 have taken 40 shots. Kobe has 8 games. MJ has 4. AI has 3. The rest have 1. Kobe didn't miss a shot in the first quarter in the Dallas game.

Does not change a whole lot but I dunno, as I do remember, its been a while, I thought the Dallas game Kobe played really, really well and his team dismantled Dallas who were an elite team in the league they had to beat and it turned into something special. In that Raptor game he just seemed to be trying to pad his stats from the get go against the crappiest team in the league a la wilt scoring 100 points on 6.5 foot guys. Bullying guys is not that special, but taking down a giant is, and I can see Bill Simmons catching that vibe and reacting to it.

Its not consistent I spose, but I think he's hit something right. Had he scored 81 against a good team how much more special would that be? Menh to it all I spose... like I said its one quip that BS most likely regrets making today. Theres a plethora of things these guys get wrong all the time.

[32jazz]

Simmons' points in either commentary really had nothing to do with the teams involved. When the Lakers were up by 30 or so in the Mavs game and Bryant sat down with 62, Simmons criticized him for not coming back in and continuing to shoot. He said Bryant had disrespected fans by not giving them a more historic performance... (this was with the Lakers up by 30 or so).

When Bryant scored 81 and brought the Lakers back from something like 18 down vs. the Raptors, Simmons criticized Bryant for shooting too much and not passing the ball to his teammates... and then stat padding by continuing to shoot when the Lakers got the lead.

No one wants to read a journalist who has an openly 'personal' dislike for players they do not even know & it relegates him to the fan boys here who 'personally' bash players they do not like.

I tried reading the guy a couple years back ,but within a few articles he was calling Kareem a 'ninny'(?):confusedshrug: If a writer wants to discuss his personal hatred for a man, he does not know, how can anyone take him seriously? I want to hear about basketball & not your personal fanboy hatreds/likes.

[LA_Showtime]

Oh let's see here, nobody actually looks at Kobe's game by game performance and lack of consistency. They prop him up to Jordan status and they leap frog his legacy over the legacies of true legends.

Rated higher than he performs = overrated. It's simple.

You & Oldschool rate Jordan higher than Jesus. I guess he's overrated too.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Hmm... well, its not like its a great point or that I was overly adamant. I will say two things though.

1. Simmons is a dude who writes columns and has random conversations with people on podcasts. He writes perspectives. During the podcast with Berry he said "I mean, man, don't take me seriously I'm just a sports columnist" and he meant it. He writes things people will want to read. If anything I think the Dallas statement was a little more off. Either way, you and I will say things all the time to our friends that are complete BS... we aren't going to have them held in front of us if we realize we were probably worng.

2. Kobe took over 20 shots by the half and only had 2 assists and 2 boards putting him on pace for 40 shots. Only 9 players since 85 have taken 40 shots. Kobe has 8 games. MJ has 4. AI has 3. The rest have 1. Kobe didn't miss a shot in the first quarter in the Dallas game.

Does not change a whole lot but I dunno, as I do remember, its been a while, I thought the Dallas game Kobe played really, really well and his team dismantled Dallas who were an elite team in the league they had to beat and it turned into something special. In that Raptor game he just seemed to be trying to pad his stats from the get go against the crappiest team in the league a la wilt scoring 100 points on 6.5 foot guys. Bullying guys is not that special, but taking down a giant is, and I can see Bill Simmons catching that vibe and reacting to it.

Its not consistent I spose, but I think he's hit something right. Had he scored 81 against a good team how much more special would that be? Menh to it all I spose... like I said its one quip that BS most likely regrets making today. Theres a plethora of things these guys get wrong all the time.

But its not just that. At one point Simmons asks berry if there is any other team that has fans as unobjective about their player as Kobe fans. Berry spits back that their are Boston fans who simply cannot admit that Ortiz is done. He actually meant Simmons who responds back with a touche and then admits that he himself cannot be objective about Boston teams and players. He is as bad as the people he can't stand.

Then there is the part where he implies that Kobe's 8 assists were made up by homer statisticians in staples. Like seriously... :confusedshrug:

And you called that honest discussion because they were amicable about it and didn't start an argument? Simmons does not like Kobe and constantly implied that Kobe's stats were made up, that he made up the scowl and practiced it, that he is the same ball hog player he always was and always will be.

[indiefan23]

No one wants to read a journalist who has an openly 'personal' dislike for players they do not even know & it relegates him to the fan boys here who 'personally' bash players they do not like.

I tried reading the guy a couple years back ,but within a few articles he was calling Kareem a 'ninny'(?):confusedshrug: If a writer wants to discuss his personal hatred for a man, he does not know, how can anyone take him seriously? I want to hear about basketball & not your personal fanboy hatreds/likes.

BS is not a journalist and writes about the league from a fan's perspective. To be a fan, he's gotta be a fan of a team, and its boston, but he's very, very objective. If you can't discern between objective analysis and talking sports banter thats your problem.

Bill Simmons knows the league just as well and better then anyone I've talked to on here. As if he only writes a 'homer' perspective. On the linked podcast today he named Elgin Baylor the best 4 of all time, jerry west top 10, the 72 lakers as teh best team record in sports, and Kareem as wildly under rated. You act like all Simmons does is bash Kobe. The guy gives kobe credit almost every time he talks/writes about him. Anyway... its pretty obvoius theres someone 'you' hate that 'you' don't know.

[indiefan23]

But its not just that. At one point Simmons asks berry if there is any other team that has fans as unobjective about their player as Kobe fans. Berry spits back that their are Boston fans who simply cannot admit that Ortiz is done. He actually meant Simmons who responds back with a touche and then admits that he himself cannot be objective about Boston teams and players. He is as bad as the people he can't stand.

Umm... he wasn't slamming Kobe's fans per se. He was stating that theres never been a player with a fan base so prepared to defend him and so unfailingly behind his player. It is to the point that there's a large portion of you guys who lose all objectivity and Berry fully admitted that. You've also got to acknowledge that theres a lot of banter going back and fourth. Everything cited is not a fact. And when pointed out he admitted he's got the same problem... ie: he was honest about it.


Then there is the part where he implies that Kobe's 8 assists were made up by homer statisticians in staples. Like seriously... :confusedshrug:

There has been rumors about this stuff going on for years. Its not new or invented by Simmons and he wasn't saying its only a Kobe thing. I don't remember Kobe getting 8 dimes myself. Again, its kind of Banter with his friend, a lakers fan, who jibe each other about things.


And you called that honest discussion because they were amicable about it and didn't start an argument? Simmons does not like Kobe and constantly implied that Kobe's stats were made up, that he made up the scowl and practiced it, that he is the same ball hog player he always was and always will be.

They had plenty of arguments. I called it honest because when one of them made a good point they accepted it. Kobe put up 40 shots on one of the most taletned teams in the NBA... you really think its a stretch to call the guy a ball hog? And simmons accepted that he would probably practice a scowl himself. And the scowl was 'not' there before, which Berry totally admits and wonders about. Don't you find it a little strange that a player we've been watching for over a decade has a new facial expression out of no where? Its interseting. Like, why are you hating? Kobe wasn't under attack. Simmons made a slew of positive points about the guy too. I was hoping you'd notice that.

[indiefan23]

But its not just that. At one point Simmons asks berry if there is any other team that has fans as unobjective about their player as Kobe fans. Berry spits back that their are Boston fans who simply cannot admit that Ortiz is done. He actually meant Simmons who responds back with a touche and then admits that he himself cannot be objective about Boston teams and players. He is as bad as the people he can't stand.

Then there is the part where he implies that Kobe's 8 assists were made up by homer statisticians in staples. Like seriously... :confusedshrug:

And you called that honest discussion because they were amicable about it and didn't start an argument? Simmons does not like Kobe and constantly implied that Kobe's stats were made up, that he made up the scowl and practiced it, that he is the same ball hog player he always was and always will be.

I just realized how tough the past 4 years must have been on LA fans. Kobe forced out Shaq. You stuck by him (like a fan base would be expected to). H missed the playoffs and kind of wasted his prime on losing. Then you finally got back to the promised land and lost. And the whole time you've been taking heat. Years of heat... you guys take someone not likeing that guy as a personal attack it seems sometimes. It must have been rough to respond to criticism that way.

[Mor'Fiyah]

BS is not a journalist and writes about the league from a fan's perspective. To be a fan, he's gotta be a fan of a team, and its boston, but he's very, very objective. If you can't discern between objective analysis and talking sports banter thats your problem.

Bill Simmons knows the league just as well and better then anyone I've talked to on here. As if he only writes a 'homer' perspective. On the linked podcast today he named Elgin Baylor the best 4 of all time, jerry west top 10, the 72 lakers as teh best team record in sports, and Kareem as wildly under rated. You act like all Simmons does is bash Kobe. The guy gives kobe credit almost every time he talks/writes about him. Anyway... its pretty obvoius theres someone 'you' hate that 'you' don't know.

But he is a passionate fan of a rival team AND openly admits to being biased. I mean... what more do you want? :confusedshrug:

Listen... when I saw KG sneering and barking on the Celtics bench during the playoffs I didnt like it. It looked thuggish and reinforced my dislike of KG and his bullyish behaviour. Other Celtics fans and/or KG fans loved his passion. We saw the mannerisms and behaviour different ways. The fact that YOU cannot see how Kobe's mannerisms are percieved differently depending on what you personally think of the man goes right to the heart of the matter: bias clouds objective judgement and makes it subjective even if the person thinks they are being as objective as possible. You cannot be objective and then decide that Bryants actions towards Bynum were selfish and cruel when you don't know whether he said anything to Drew, what he said, how he felt, what happened in the locker room, after the game (reports are he took him to dinner with his family), their entire relationship. Not everyone reacts the same way to different things.

[shadow]

Lol...

As a Celtics fan, I love his commentary on the Celts... um... sometimes... but Bill Simmons is a guy who, three years ago, when Bryant dropped 62 points on the Mavericks and sat out the 4th quarter, criticized Bryant for not playing the rest of the game "and robbing us of a historic moment" after he had previously criticized him for ballhogging all season.

A couple of weeks later, Bryant dropped the 81 point game, and Simmons flipped and then criticized him for ball hogging and not passing to his teammates enough. Bill doesn't have many rational bones in his body when it comes to the Lakers, and having read his work for years as a Celts fan, I can say this with certainty...

reactionary journalism. You can hardly fault him for it since almost all journalists do it. There's very few who stick to their purported ideals unless they believe in them strongly eg. simmons and celtics homerism. He is an entertaining writer regardless.

[Mor'Fiyah]

I just realized how tough the past 4 years must have been on LA fans. Kobe forced out Shaq. You stuck by him (like a fan base would be expected to). H missed the playoffs and kind of wasted his prime on losing. Then you finally got back to the promised land and lost. And the whole time you've been taking heat. Years of heat... you guys take someone not likeing that guy as a personal attack it seems sometimes. It must have been rough to respond to criticism that way.

Wrong. I am a fan who has personally and publicly criticised Kobe before. I do think him forcing some shots in the fourth of game one was over kill (I don't know whether he did it or Phil told him to, but I can believe Kobe went rogue). I criticised him when I thought he wasn't driving enough etc. Those are all legitimate and constructive criticism of Bryant.

Bringing up the rape case, saying he is a ball hog despite his high assist totals, double standards, etc are what annoy me about the "haters". Uncalled for criticism. Claiming Kobe is selfish and petulant because of how you percieved his facial expression and mannerisms on the court is unacceptable bias on your part no matter how you spin it. I can say "Man... I hate that look Lebron gets when his teammates miss shots.. it makes me feel like he thinks he is better than everyone else..." and I am entitled to my opinion. But I cannot extend on that and then say "Lebron IS a selfish prick because he thinks he is better than his teammates and I KNOW this because I have read it in his demeanor."

[Mor'Fiyah]

reactionary journalism. You can hardly fault him for it since almost all journalists do it. There's very few who stick to their purported ideals unless they believe in them strongly eg. simmons and celtics homerism. He is an entertaining writer regardless.

But he would have reacted differently had it been a different player. The point being his bias against Kobe Bryant causes him to do and say things about Kobe that he wouldn't do to any other player. As a result its understandable that Laker fans don't like him. I don't see the problem here. :confusedshrug:

[shadow]

But he would have reacted differently had it been a different player. The point being his bias against Kobe Bryant causes him to do and say things about Kobe that he wouldn't do to any other player. As a result its understandable that Laker fans don't like him. I don't see the problem here. :confusedshrug:
no problems here either. He definitely hates Kobe's guts. I just wanted to point out that journalists in general write reactionary stuff. Simmons is no exception. I think the tone of my response came across wrong.

[32jazz]

... you guys take someone not likeing that guy as a personal attack it seems sometimes. It must have been rough to respond to criticism that way.

I guess Maxfly falls into that category of Laker homer also :confusedshrug:

Fact is any intelligent fan wants to read about basketball & not some so called journalist who thinks we want to hear about a man's creepy hate for another man he does not know. Who wants to know whether someone thinks Kareem is a 'ninny'?(Yes he openly admits to hating Kareem also). True fans want to hear about basketball & not some fan boys personal dislikes of men he has never met.

This puts Simmons ,not on the level of serious journalist, but puts him on the level with losers like you really. No fan of the game can take him nor journalist with personal issues with any athletes(they don't know) seriously.

[LakersLaLaLand]

I just realized how tough the past 4 years must have been on LA fans. Kobe forced out Shaq. You stuck by him (like a fan base would be expected to). H missed the playoffs and kind of wasted his prime on losing. Then you finally got back to the promised land and lost. And the whole time you've been taking heat. Years of heat... you guys take someone not likeing that guy as a personal attack it seems sometimes. It must have been rough to respond to criticism that way.

Shaq forced himself out.

Same as he did in Miami and will do to phoenix.

[LakersLaLaLand]

reactionary journalism. You can hardly fault him for it since almost all journalists do it. There's very few who stick to their purported ideals unless they believe in them strongly eg. simmons and celtics homerism. He is an entertaining writer regardless.

We agreed on this earlier.

[LakersLaLaLand]

I guess Maxfly falls into that category of Laker homer also :confusedshrug:

Fact is any intelligent fan wants to read about basketball & not some so called journalist who thinks we want to hear about a man's creepy hate for another man he does not know. Who wants to know whether someone thinks Kareem is a 'ninny'?(Yes he openly admits to hating Kareem also). True fans want to hear about basketball & not some fan boys personal dislikes of men he has never met.

This puts Simmons ,not on the level of serious journalist, but puts him on the level with losers like you really. No fan of the game can take him nor journalist with personal issues with any athletes(they don't know) seriously.

I actually am gravitated to him because of his celtic faith and hate for lakers past or present. I enjoy the angle.

[MaxFly]

Hmm... well, its not like its a great point or that I was overly adamant. I will say two things though.

1. Simmons is a dude who writes columns and has random conversations with people on podcasts. He writes perspectives. During the podcast with Berry he said "I mean, man, don't take me seriously I'm just a sports columnist" and he meant it. He writes things people will want to read. If anything I think the Dallas statement was a little more off. Either way, you and I will say things all the time to our friends that are complete BS... we aren't going to have them held in front of us if we realize we were probably worng.


Hmmm... I think it's one thing to say something to a friend simply because you're just trying to win an argument and you're a little biased. It's something entirely different to have that opinion published and then call it analyzation. There has to be a standard that journalists should adhere to. The main issue is that the personal bias muddies their commentary.

Moreover, even if you're just talking to a friend... forget thousands of readers... you at least owe it to that friend to avoid being hypocritical. If you're speaking with him about some issue and you take a certain stance because of some bias, you shouldn't take a different stance on the same subject at a later date because that new stance now better fits your agenda... It's likely that friend will regard you as a hypocrite... now enter thousands of intelligent readers. :confusedshrug:


2. Kobe took over 20 shots by the half and only had 2 assists and 2 boards putting him on pace for 40 shots. Only 9 players since 85 have taken 40 shots. Kobe has 8 games. MJ has 4. AI has 3. The rest have 1. Kobe didn't miss a shot in the first quarter in the Dallas game.

Does not change a whole lot but I dunno, as I do remember, its been a while, I thought the Dallas game Kobe played really, really well and his team dismantled Dallas who were an elite team in the league they had to beat and it turned into something special. In that Raptor game he just seemed to be trying to pad his stats from the get go against the crappiest team in the league a la wilt scoring 100 points on 6.5 foot guys. Bullying guys is not that special, but taking down a giant is, and I can see Bill Simmons catching that vibe and reacting to it.

I'm not sure about your take concerning the Raptor game. Bryant scored 26 points in the first half of the game on 10/16 shooting. I'm not sure how that can be construed as looking to pad his stats from the get go, and I don't see what there is to criticize (could you comment on this further please). He took most of his shots in the second half when the Lakers were down big and he was trying to bring them back. I'm also not sure how one could perceive what Bryant did as "bullying" when it was the Lakers who were down by a lot even with his efficient scoring at the end of the first half.


Its not consistent I spose, but I think he's hit something right. Had he scored 81 against a good team how much more special would that be? Menh to it all I spose... like I said its one quip that BS most likely regrets making today. Theres a plethora of things these guys get wrong all the time.

Simmons didn't criticize Bryant because he scored 81 points against a poor team. Note, Simmons found a way to criticize Bryant even when he scored a lot of points against the Mavericks (a good team) just a few weeks prior to the 81 point game. You can't write an article criticizing a player for something and then do a 180 and criticize him for the exact opposite. The criticism comes of as biased commentary more than intelligent analysis.

[indiefan23]

But he is a passionate fan of a rival team AND openly admits to being biased. I mean... what more do you want? :confusedshrug:

He admits it to put it in the open so its not like you don't know... its not a know to be fourthright with your biases. Everyone has them. You know he's been complimenting Kobe all season, right? He's pretty objective and if he's not, its kind of easy to tell because he makes it that way.


Listen... when I saw KG sneering and barking on the Celtics bench during the playoffs I didnt like it. It looked thuggish and reinforced my dislike of KG and his bullyish behaviour. Other Celtics fans and/or KG fans loved his passion. We saw the mannerisms and behaviour different ways. The fact that YOU cannot see how Kobe's mannerisms are percieved differently depending on what you personally think of the man goes right to the heart of the matter: bias clouds objective judgement and makes it subjective even if the person thinks they are being as objective as possible.

Umm... its not that Kobe is scowling. Its that he's never, ever done it before. Its not one of his natural mannerisms cuz the guy is 30, I've watched him play for 12 years, and suddenly he's behaving differently with different facial expressions. The fact that it looks like he intentionally did this is whats interesting, not that he's showing passion.


You cannot be objective and then decide that Bryants actions towards Bynum were selfish and cruel when you don't know whether he said anything to Drew, what he said, how he felt, what happened in the locker room, after the game (reports are he took him to dinner with his family), their entire relationship. Not everyone reacts the same way to different things.

Uh, whatever. I'm not an idiot. You can't be objective either if you're living in Kobe's jock. Looking at that tape, from both angles, it appeares in every way to me, in my non-stupid head, that he gets up, gets annoyed, and walks away barely even acknowledging Bynum is there other then to get out from between his legs. I mean, think about it.

The first thing he does, while Bynum is writhing is gets out from his legs and looks down to the other end to see if they score or not. Then he turns and looks straight ahead barely taking time to glance at him. Throws his hand down in disgust, looks straigth ahead and gets up, then walks away. An assistant comes over and behaves like every single other person I know and have ever met, much less spend all my time around, and gets down to see if the guy is all right and if they can help. Getting up and walking away in any respects is a crappy thing to do after you hurt someone without intention in any circumstances. Sure, he took him to dinner, but he left the dude writihing in pain alone on the floor and thats just a crappy thing to do.

Heres some examples of how teammates react when other teammates get hurt:
allen for rondo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPlbvPP7O1s&feature=PlayList&p=A1A47D83F3B212A3&index=11

the first thing Bynum does is moves to wallace to see if the guy is okay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbcjL7AVxMA&feature=PlayList&p=A1A47D83F3B212A3&index=22

is that Mo? the first thing he does is goes up and says 'you okay?'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIT9WHobGwI&feature=related

its just waht teammates do, and i dont' see it there. How is it bias? do you see it?

[indiefan23]

Hmmm... I think it's one thing to say something to a friend simply because you're just trying to win an argument and you're a little biased. It's something entirely different to have that opinion published and then call it analyzation. There has to be a standard that journalists should adhere to. The main issue is that the personal bias muddies their commentary.

Moreover, even if you're just talking to a friend... forget thousands of readers... you at least owe it to that friend to avoid being hypocritical. If you're speaking with him about some issue and you take a certain stance because of some bias, you shouldn't take a different stance on the same subject at a later date because that new stance now better fits your agenda... It's likely that friend will regard you as a hypocrite... now enter thousands of intelligent readers. :confusedshrug:



I'm not sure about your take concerning the Raptor game. Bryant scored 26 points in the first half of the game on 10/16 shooting. I'm not sure how that can be construed as looking to pad his stats from the get go, and I don't see what there is to criticize (could you comment on this further please). He took most of his shots in the second half when the Lakers were down big and he was trying to bring them back. I'm also not sure how one could perceive what Bryant did as "bullying" when it was the Lakers who were down by a lot even with his efficient scoring at the end of the first half.



Simmons didn't criticize Bryant because he scored 81 points against a poor team. Note, Simmons found a way to criticize Bryant even when he scored a lot of points against the Mavericks (a good team) just a few weeks prior to the 81 point game. You can't write an article criticizing a player for something and then do a 180 and criticize him for the exact opposite. The criticism comes of as biased commentary more than intelligent analysis.

Hmm... do you have it there? I'm by no means saying the guy is perfect, I'm just saying he writes opinions for a living and those are subject to being wrong, inconsistent or changing from time to time. I think the guy is really tough on kobe, but fair. Probabaly more fair then I am anyway.

[indiefan23]

and bryant took over 20 shots in the first half... maybe I'm mistaken from the game log thoguh.

[Mor'Fiyah]

I see that you just can't comprehend how you could see it as selfish and many other people not see it that way at all. So I will leave it at that.

As for your rebuttal of my KG comment... do we have video or images of KG doing that gangsta mug/scowl before the Celtics series?!

[Mor'Fiyah]

and bryant took over 20 shots in the first half... maybe I'm mistaken from the game log thoguh.

It doesn't really matter how many shots he took in the first half. They were losing. And losing badly against the "worst team in the league". What should he have then done? Stop shooting and lose the game? I don't get it.

In the end there really is no arguing with someone who has decided to not like Bryant... and frankly I don't care to. It won't matter in the end when Kobe wins another ring and possibly other in the future and does what so many hoped he would never be able to do again. Sometimes I do wonder if its not better to just shut up and let you guys stick your feet in your mouths time and time again.

[MaxFly]

Hmm... do you have it there? I'm by no means saying the guy is perfect, I'm just saying he writes opinions for a living and those are subject to being wrong, inconsistent or changing from time to time. I think the guy is really tough on kobe, but fair. Probabaly more fair then I am anyway.

A biased person cannot be fair unless they put their bias aside, and Bill very rarely does that. I'm talking as a Celts fan who's read the guy's commentary on the Celtics for years... he's like the guys down at the babershop who will use whatever argument they can to put down a team or a player. It doesn't matter whether they truely believe the argument they are making, to doesn't matter to them whether they are being hypocritical... they'll say it if it advances their agenda... Simmons isn't that bad, because he can't afford to be... but when it comes to the Lakers and Bryant in particular, it's accurate to say that he's seldom fair.

[MaxFly]

and bryant took over 20 shots in the first half... maybe I'm mistaken from the game log thoguh.

He didn't... 5/9 in the first quarter, 5/7 in the second quarter. 16 shots in all.

[MaxFly]

Sometimes I do wonder if its not better to just shut up and let you guys stick your feet in your mouths time and time again.

To be honest, I wish you guys would. It would make things so much easier... People with unreasonable, illogical biases would eventually tire themselves out.

[Mor'Fiyah]

To be honest, I wish you guys would. It would make things so much easier... People with unreasonable, illogical biases would eventually tire themselves out.

Believe me I try for my part. I am not a volume poster on here and read FAR more than I actually post. I really upped my post rate when the Lakers looked like they had a very good chance at taking the whole thing and then the haters and homers took the board to varying degrees of ridicule. Then I couldn't help it.

[32jazz]

I actually am gravitated to him because of his celtic faith and hate for lakers past or present. I enjoy the angle.


Yeah I actually thought it pretty funny also & the 'tortured' Celtic fan bit (during the Celtics drought) was once funny as well ,but the guy just takes it far more 'personal' than I wish a sports journalist would. And not just Kareem,Lakers, or Kobe either ,but I sometimes wondered why he even bothers covering the NBA with his personal attacks/views of other NBA players. He may think it was only biting sarcasm ,but to me his writings came across as bitter/mean spirited at times. (I feel that cynical writers like him were partly responsible for so much of the 2004 Olympic Team hate).

Ralph Wiley(my absolute favorite sports writer before he passed) even did some joint 'Wiley vs Simmons' articles which actually introduced me to the guy,but it wasn't long before his style wore on me.

[indiefan23]

Wrong. I am a fan who has personally and publicly criticised Kobe before. I do think him forcing some shots in the fourth of game one was over kill (I don't know whether he did it or Phil told him to, but I can believe Kobe went rogue). I criticised him when I thought he wasn't driving enough etc. Those are all legitimate and constructive criticism of Bryant.

Yea, but you're a lakers fan right? It must have sucked to have your star player be such an easy target. And to have one of the best players in the league waste his prime on your team so he could pursue individual accolades.

Either way, maybe you're a more highly evolved version of LA fan or wahtever, it doesn't matter. I can understand how being killed year after year like that would get you defensive.


Bringing up the rape case, saying he is a ball hog despite his high assist totals, double standards, etc are what annoy me about the "haters". Uncalled for criticism. Claiming Kobe is selfish and petulant because of how you percieved his facial expression and mannerisms on the court is unacceptable bias on your part no matter how you spin it.

Oh really now.

Lets try this on for spin.

Hmm... I never bring up the rape case. Well, sometimes as a joke or whatever, I think he did it and was a guilty as sin liar, but its got little to do with his play.

Now, high assist totals? I disagree with that. Letting your dimes drop 1.5 to 4.5 so you can score 35 points in one of the most blatant attempts to rival MJ is not something to hang your hat on. Kobe pads his scoring stats by not passing and forcing shots. And I'm not just hating or something so like, consider it for a minute. Its not that Kobe has great games where he's so much playing at a higher level, he has games where he's keeps the ball, stops passing and focuses himself entirely on individual scoring.

Kobe Since LA has been his team,

FG%: 51%
dimes:5.19 (5.37 taking away his 35 ppg season)
>= points/dimes/differential
40 / 3.9 / -1.29
45 / 3.5 / -1.69
50 / 3.0 / -2.19
55 / 2.6 / -2.59

Lets compare it to the other prolific scorers


Gilbert Arenas In Washington

FG%: 53%
dimes: 5.66
>= points/dimes/differential
40 / 5.44 / -0.22
45 / 5.72 / +.06
50 / 5.66 / 0
55 / 8.00 / +2.44 (only one game is crappy sample size, but still)

AI In Philly


FG%: 51%
dimes: 6.12
>= points/dimes/differential
40 / 6.07 / -0.05
45 / 5.93 / -0.18
50 / 5.30 / -0.82
55 / 6.00 / -0.12 (only two games is also a crappy sample size, but still)



Dwayne Wade

FG%: 58%
dimes: 6.66

>= points/dimes/differential
40 / 7.25 / +0.59
45 / 8.14 / +1.48
50 / 6.00 / -0.66 (3 games small sample size but still)
55 / 4.00 / -2.66 (only 1 game, small sample size but still)


Lebron James

FG%: 57%
dimes: 6.69
>= points/dimes/differential
40 / 7.15 / +0.46
45 / 7.26 / +0.57
50 / 8.50 / +1.81
55 / 7.00 / +.31


MJ, 23 Ways To Make You Pay

FG%: 59%
dimes: 5.38
>= points/dimes/differential
40 / 5.08 / -0.30
45 / 4.74 / -0.65
50 / 4.53 / -0.86
55 / 3.88 / -1.5

Now, what do all those numbers tell us? I'd like to note very strongly, that I did not know the results of those stats when I built my spreadsheet. I'm a pretty objective person to a fault. I break things down. Its who I am. I didn't create something with stats. I've watched Kobe play and this is what I've come to understand from watching him. So I built my spread sheet and those were the results.

I'm going to make a few conclusions, and I'm going to say they're detatched from my hate for Kobe. This is objective observation.

1. Kobe has a crap load of high scoring games. He can really put it in the hoop at high volumes.

2. While he's good at this he's over rated at it as well and shares the lowest shooting percentage with Iverson for > 40 point games.

3. Kobe might be the most selfish player of all time. And I'm not hating. While he can surely score, he's a fantastic, great scorer, I'll reiterate, he's effing great, he pads his stats by ignoring his teammates in big games. You can see it in the continuous drop in his assists as he scores more points. I draw two conclusions.

Kobe pre-meditates his big scoring nights and intentionally focuses all his energy on getting his. Such a game is his 61 with 0 dimes and 3 boards in 42 minutes vs NYK after Bynum got hurt. The second is once Kobe has a good quarter and hits some shots for a good rhythm he starts thinking of sports center highlights, and promptly forgets his team. This is like his Dallas game where he hit all his shots (7 I think) in the first quarter, then jacked a much lower percentages for the next two quarters getting 0 assists for the entire game.

4. Kobe's got more 40 point games then everyone on this list except Jordan and Iverson. Which makes sense because the others have really only played around that many seasons (including philly Iverson) and Jordan's 158 40 point games in chicago is likely to just not be surpassed. FYI, Kobe had 69 (huh huh huh) 40 point games after Shaq and 27 with Shaq.

5. However why does he have more? A big reason is because he tries more. This is really a note on the sample sizes. Why does Gilbert only have one 60 point game, Wade have 0 and Kobe has 5? Its pretty obvious that its because Wade/Arenas don't alter their game plan to focus their abilities on individual scoring. Wade gets his points by approaching a 10 point advantage in field goal percentage, relative to Bryant.

Wade/Lebron has big games by elevating his overall play as opposed to focusing his energy on a highly visible category. This is why when he a big night all his cats go up. When scoring 45 points or more Wade averages 1.48 assists more then normal, almost a full assist better then when scoring 40 points, and over 5 more assists, on average, then Kobe when he scores 45 points. 5 assists is a big deal. Assuming 50% FGP (which is high) you have to pass to a teammate in a position to score more then 14 times in a game to get that assist total. When Lebron scores more points it means his team is in for an even better game as he averages a full 2 assists more when scoring 50 points. I'm pretty sure that when Kobe passes you the ball its because he expects it back. You guys keep claiming people give Bron slack as a teammate: he earns it because he uses his scoring ability to open up the game for everyone else. And its not bias to say so. Its factual.

6. The only person on this list who's dimes follow the same progression of continuously shrinking is MJ. However you've got to consider, MJ shot 60% in his big games instead of 51%. He only passes kobe's differential of 1.22 for all his 40 point games for his 9 (of 158 40 points games) over 55 points. In those 9 games he has a 10 at 57 pts, 6 at 59 pts and 6 at 69 pts. From 50-55 he breaks 5 dimes 9 times out of 20.

Kobe has 1 8 dime game at 53. 1 8 dime game at 50. 5 and 6 at 46. And 10 at 45. That's all his +5 dime games when scoring 45 or more. I don't have to get into the slower pace Jordan played in or the ridiculously tougher defenses he played in or the rule changes that every one of these games Kobe played in was officiated under making it easier on the perimeter. It sounds like you're sick of that and know it already.

I don't expect Kobe to be Jordan either. MJ is the GOAT for a reason and I'm not making an Kobe sucks in comparison argument either. I merely went into the Jordan stuff because he's the only other player who showed Kobe's pattern of continuously diminished assists in relation to scoring output. My conclusion: MJ was a little selfish in his play but he also had more reason to be by virtue of shooting 60% in 158 40+ point games and being Michael Freaking Jordan. He still was not nearly as selfish as Bryant.

The ironic thing is I think Kobe wanted to be considered better then Jordan. He told Tracey McGrady when he was 19 that he was already a better player then Michael. Once Shaq left he made it his mission to try and get as close to Jordan as possible and unfortunately he, like way too many fans and writers, over valued scoring and went for it.

7. How many more 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 point games would these other guys on this list have if they were following Kobe's example and keeping the ball in their hands every time they started getting hot? I'm guessing lots. I'm going to say that if Jordan had 0 dimes instead of 6, and 3 rebounds instead of 18, when he scored 69 points, he would easily be the guy sitting in second to Wilt. If he passes 12 times to get 6 dimes and hit 62%, he's at something like 85-86 points. If he was not crashing the boards and was playing the worst defensive team in the league instead of the 9'th best and primarially defensive team, in 1990, I think Jordan break's Wilt's record.

But its not all about Jordan. If these other guys played Kobe style ball, and followed his scoring progression, I think these totals go up a lot. Wade's 48/12 pushes 60 as does 50/9, 48/11 and even 46/10. So does Iverson's 58/6, 60/6 goes up, and 51/6. Arenas 60/8 pushes 70 for sure, and 51/5, 47/8 and 54/4 all push 60.

Lebron, he's the best scorer of this decade if he played this way. 56/5, 55/9, 52/11, 52/7/, 51/9, 51/9, 51/8, 50/9 and 50/10 all go upwards of 60 points.

So anyway, how's that spin?


I can say "Man... I hate that look Lebron gets when his teammates miss shots.. it makes me feel like he thinks he is better than everyone else..." and I am entitled to my opinion. But I cannot extend on that and then say "Lebron IS a selfish prick because he thinks he is better than his teammates and I KNOW this because I have read it in his demeanor."

Yea, but here is the difference. I can back up Kobe being a selfish teammate who sacrifices the rest of his game to increase his scoring totals. I just did it without malice, bias or emotion and we both know I did a good job. You can't do that with Lebron James or Wade or even Iverson because they just do not play that way. When Wade gets it going it means his teammates are going to get theirs even more.

Not everyone who is not a Kobe fan is a hater you know. I don't like him because I specifically do NOT like the way he plays basketball and its a perfectly valid and fair way to think about Kobe Bryant. Maybe it comes from playing so long with Shaq, another guy who over valued scoring, I don't know.

But here's the point, I saw everything I said above with my eyes and was plenty objective when I formed my opinion on this guy. I think his game and attitude are both flawed and he only plays his best basketball in stretches. As someone casting stones labeled with HATER and BIAS and complaining about objectivity, you've got to sit down sometimes to think about your own bias. I hate Kobe, but I'm not a hater, if that makes any sense. If you want people's respect when you talk about this guy, you're going to have to start thinking about how your own biases before you rail against others.

That's all I've got to say.

[indiefan23]

Yeah I actually thought it pretty funny also & the 'tortured' Celtic fan bit (during the Celtics drought) was once funny as well

Umm... two of the best Celtics players died within a 7 year span of eachother. One while actually on the court. One the night he got drafted. The Sox hadn't won in 1000 years. The Bruins hadn't won since forever and their awesome team was destroyed by one of the worst owners in sports. The beef was legitimate.


but the guy just takes it far more 'personal' than I wish a sports journalist would. And not just Kareem

Who he calls one of the best of all time.


,Lakers, or Kobe either ,

Who he calls the best player in the league.


but I sometimes wondered why he even bothers covering the NBA with his personal attacks/views of other NBA players. He may think it was only biting sarcasm ,but to me his writings came across as bitter/mean spirited at times. (I feel that cynical writers like him were partly responsible for so much of the 2004 Olympic Team hate).

Umm... you mean like, more then them failing to place while wildly having the most talented team because 12 solitary players spent their time living on the biggest and most luxurious cruise ship in the world?


Ralph Wiley(my absolute favorite sports writer before he passed) even did some joint 'Wiley vs Simmons' articles which actually introduced me to the guy,but it wasn't long before his style wore on me.

Yea, I hate it when people are bias huh! ;0 :confusedshrug:

[indiefan23]

To be honest, I wish you guys would. It would make things so much easier... People with unreasonable, illogical biases would eventually tire themselves out.

Are you referring to me? Cuz I'm pretty sure the person you're responding to is. And who you're talking about there, I am not that guy.

[indiefan23]

He didn't... 5/9 in the first quarter, 5/7 in the second quarter. 16 shots in all.

In the Dallas or Raptors game? I counted 16 in th dallas game and 20 in the raps one.

[indiefan23]

Shaq forced himself out.

Same as he did in Miami and will do to phoenix.

That is one of the lamest sports arguments of all time. If Kobe wanted Shaq Shaq would have stayed. LA wanted Kobe cuz he was 25 and they knew Shaq would decline soon. Theres no chance they didn't ask Kobe if it was okay to trade Shaq if Kobe had not communicated that this was his desire already. There is 0 chance they said "were going to get Odom/Butler/Grant and haven't resigned Kobe, should we pull the trigger or see if our #1 objective is happy with that deal since he had a meeting with the Clippers 2 days ago?" There is 0,I repeate, 0 chance Buss or anyone in LA said "naw, pull the trigger, we'll ask him after." Its just not what happened.

[indiefan23]

I see that you just can't comprehend how you could see it as selfish and many other people not see it that way at all. So I will leave it at that.

Its not selfish to walk away, its just plain rude. He hurt the guy you should at least pretend to care about it. I don't know, if you hurt someone what would you do when they were on the ground. Would you keep looking at something else, get up and walk away or try to communicate something to the guy? I bet if you took 100 people they'd all do the the latter.

I know people deal with things differently. You acknowledged he handled it differently then most would too. I think the way he handled it was cold and totally low class. Kobe's a smart guy, even if its just for appearances why doesn't he go to the guy to in the interests of team spirit? Kobe's 30 and I think he should get these things about being the #1 guy on a team by now. That's all.


As for your rebuttal of my KG comment... do we have video or images of KG doing that gangsta mug/scowl before the Celtics series?!

KG has 'always' been crazy. He's always been ridiculously intense. He spent a lot of time in Minny where the team sucked and he didn't get his press, but he's always been doing the same things. Love KG. Is there anyone you'd want to play with other then KG?

You can watch this mix of his and see lots of antics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyUSjpJRCY0

[Mor'Fiyah]

blah blah blah stats here blah blah blah stats there blah blah here a stat blah blah there a stat blah blah everywhere a stat stat.

You certainly used up a lot of energy to type that up huh?

Let me use far less energy to rebut with a few well placed questions...

Your stats simply fail to tell the entire story. Why? Well is it possible that the offensive systems each player played within had a lot to do with the numbers as well? For instance the Cavs catch and shoot or else watch Lebron do his thing offense would be a big factor into why Lebron's assist numbers are so much better than Jordan's who played in the triangle offense during his championship runs. The triangle offense, as you well know, is not conducive to single player assist totals. Then Wade's superior FG% numbers are far more attributable to Wade's role in the offense as a driver vs. Kobe's role in the offense as a perimeter to mid-range jump shooter. TS% kills those stats, in which case it becomes a case of "whose stats are better". So it behooves you to throw every other players stats out the window but Jordan's since they both played triangle. But then you have to factor in Kobe having to play alongside Shaq as more or less a facilitator who dominated on the perimeter in case teams tried to overload on Shaq. You have to factor in that Jordan went on many scoring binges when he didn't even play in the triangle offense. You have to factor in that many of Kobe's high scoring games came when his teammates were much less efficient than Jordan's. You have to factor in...

You get where I am going with this? Well if you don't, my point is that your stats leave out way too many gaps to make a formidable case for Kobe being any more selfish than the players you mentioned. In fact, using those same stats and substituting TS% and assist numbers for players within the triangle offense, you will find Kobe has way above average stats for a perimeter player in the offense both in regards to shooting % and assists.

You stat heads amuse me.

Everyone should know by now that stats can be slanted to push biased agenda. It is why statistics are the favoured propaganda tool in politics. I find it to be exactly the same in sports. Stats are extremely useful.. but when you use them to support a particular viewpoint but then also extrapolate the large gaps the stats don't take care of you end up pushing a suspect argument.

[LakersLaLaLand]

Nice back and forth guys.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Yea, but here is the difference. I can back up Kobe being a selfish teammate who sacrifices the rest of his game to increase his scoring totals. I just did it without malice, bias or emotion and we both know I did a good job. You can't do that with Lebron James or Wade or even Iverson because they just do not play that way. When Wade gets it going it means his teammates are going to get theirs even more.

Not everyone who is not a Kobe fan is a hater you know. I don't like him because I specifically do NOT like the way he plays basketball and its a perfectly valid and fair way to think about Kobe Bryant. Maybe it comes from playing so long with Shaq, another guy who over valued scoring, I don't know.

But here's the point, I saw everything I said above with my eyes and was plenty objective when I formed my opinion on this guy. I think his game and attitude are both flawed and he only plays his best basketball in stretches. As someone casting stones labeled with HATER and BIAS and complaining about objectivity, you've got to sit down sometimes to think about your own bias. I hate Kobe, but I'm not a hater, if that makes any sense. If you want people's respect when you talk about this guy, you're going to have to start thinking about how your own biases before you rail against others.

That's all I've got to say.

You actually have failed to objectively back up anything.

Analogy of what you did:

White guy: There would be less crime if we aborted black babies.

Black guy: Really?! How could you say such a thing? You are probably biased.

White guy: I am not. I have objectively used the stats to come to such a conclusion. You see... blacks make up a higher proportion of the prison population. It therefore means that a higher proportion of blacks are criminals. Therefore its easy to deduce that if you reduce the black population by increasing black abortions you then also reduce crime.

The above is a short story on how objective stats can be used to support a biased point of view. In addition, its very possible that the white guy in my analogy doesn't think he is biased in the least. To him, he has used sound logic to come to his warped conclusion.

Harsh example, I know. But not that much different in concept to how I perceive your stance. In my mind (and you likely think me biased as well), Kobe Bryant cannot be a selfish player when he has been asked to take on a scorers role in a triangle offense that does not create high individual assist numbers while still maintaining a more than decent assist average. And I admit... my opinion is subjective and likely biased. But I can admit this. You on the other hand would pose your stance as purely objective. Tsk. Tsk.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Its not selfish to walk away, its just plain rude. He hurt the guy you should at least pretend to care about it. I don't know, if you hurt someone what would you do when they were on the ground. Would you keep looking at something else, get up and walk away or try to communicate something to the guy? I bet if you took 100 people they'd all do the the latter.

I know people deal with things differently. You acknowledged he handled it differently then most would too. I think the way he handled it was cold and totally low class. Kobe's a smart guy, even if its just for appearances why doesn't he go to the guy to in the interests of team spirit? Kobe's 30 and I think he should get these things about being the #1 guy on a team by now. That's all.



KG has 'always' been crazy. He's always been ridiculously intense. He spent a lot of time in Minny where the team sucked and he didn't get his press, but he's always been doing the same things. Love KG. Is there anyone you'd want to play with other then KG?

You can watch this mix of his and see lots of antics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyUSjpJRCY0

Agree to disagree on the first issue. Its the same problem we have been having all along. You think your opinion on the matter is objective (meaning absolute fact) and I think your opinion on the matter is as subjective as my opinion.

As for the second issue with KG. LOL (I actually laughed out loud). KG is intense, but we have never seen that particular face before these playoffs. Kobe is also an intense player, he is insanely focused, and has repeatedly done a myriad of things when playing big games (tongue wagging, fist pumping, jersey pulling, enraged screams, fingers cocked like pistols, airplane simulations, pretending to blow smoke off his "hot" hand). This scowl is just the newest thing.

[indiefan23]

Agree to disagree on the first issue. Its the same problem we have been having all along. You think your opinion on the matter is objective (meaning absolute fact) and I think your opinion on the matter is as subjective as my opinion.

I don't think my opinion is fact, at all, but I think its totally objective. If anyone hurt another player, looked away, and got up and walked away with a pissed off look on their faces while a guy was writhing in pain, I'd say the exact same things about them. Objective only means I'm looking at it fairly and assessing it without an agenda. I am. I don't like Kobe but its cuz of how he behaves at times like this that make me not like him.


As for the second issue with KG. LOL (I actually laughed out loud). KG is intense, but we have never seen that particular face before these playoffs. Kobe is also an intense player, he is insanely focused, and has repeatedly done a myriad of things when playing big games (tongue wagging, fist pumping, jersey pulling, enraged screams, fingers cocked like pistols, airplane simulations, pretending to blow smoke off his "hot" hand). This scowl is just the newest thing.

I don't buy it. Which face of KG's hasn't he made? 'n yea, Kobe does all those things... they're all, I dunno, they just seem staged a lot of the time. Look at this one... I think his teammates agree with me. But he's talented and on their team, so they put up with it.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_-K0Zhn0I6Dk/Si4gG-TR3wI/AAAAAAAAAFA/I7BDwu8Qc_E/s400/kobe%20sucks.jpg

KG is just an emotional freak who can't stop himself from dropping F bombs, yelling and reacting to the moment. I believe that after years of watching him be a crazy mofo and after watching his break down to tears on TV. KG strikes me as genuine and Kobe does not. Kobe strikes me as he looks in the above picture and the way he looks when he's in his 'rap' video with Tyra Banks. I don't think the guy knows who he is so he pretends to be someone he thinks people think he should be.

The guy is absolutely fascinating. Have you read PJ's book? I think thats the closest we get to Kobe cuz I think PJ wrote it thinking he was never going to coach the guy again.

[indiefan23]

You actually have failed to objectively back up anything.

Analogy of what you did:

White guy: There would be less crime if we aborted black babies.

Black guy: Really?! How could you say such a thing? You are probably biased.

White guy: I am not. I have objectively used the stats to come to such a conclusion. You see... blacks make up a higher proportion of the prison population. It therefore means that a higher proportion of blacks are criminals. Therefore its easy to deduce that if you reduce the black population by increasing black abortions you then also reduce crime.

The above is a short story on how objective stats can be used to support a biased point of view. In addition, its very possible that the white guy in my analogy doesn't think he is biased in the least. To him, he has used sound logic to come to his warped conclusion.

Harsh example, I know. But not that much different in concept to how I perceive your stance. In my mind (and you likely think me biased as well), Kobe Bryant cannot be a selfish player when he has been asked to take on a scorers role in a triangle offense that does not create high individual assist numbers while still maintaining a more than decent assist average. And I admit... my opinion is subjective and likely biased. But I can admit this. You on the other hand would pose your stance as purely objective. Tsk. Tsk.

That's the weakest rebuttal I've 'ever' had anyone give me about anything. When Kobe scores more he can't create offense for anyone but himself. Its not his 'role' in the triangle offense because his differentials, which I compared him to other players on, are based on his own production in the triangle offense over the exact same span of time. Even when performing modest high scoring outputs his ability to create is dramatically worse then Jordan's when they played in the same triangle offense.

When Kobe scores more points his play making suffers more then any other player in the game, who's production either stays the same or increases. Except for Jordan, who was always his team's best chance of scoring in such games due to his 60% FG% and 0 dominant post players and still dropped less then 1 assist even in 50 point games.

I'm not even going to dignify your ridiculous killing babies thing... sports are much, much simpler then socio-economic trends of racial communities with regard to prison populations. Actually, you know, its just disrespectful. I took you seriously and put time into answering you, and you just made this BS example of racism.

This is 'exactly' how kobe's fans are not objective. You can't accept the guy has any flaws at all. You're not worth the effort. Would anyone else like to talk about the stuff I made there?

[indiefan23]

You certainly used up a lot of energy to type that up huh?

Let me use far less energy to rebut with a few well placed questions...

Your stats simply fail to tell the entire story. Why? Well is it possible that the offensive systems each player played within had a lot to do with the numbers as well? For instance the Cavs catch and shoot or else watch Lebron do his thing offense would be a big factor into why Lebron's assist numbers are so much better than Jordan's who played in the triangle offense during his championship runs. The triangle offense, as you well know, is not conducive to single player assist totals. Then Wade's superior FG% numbers are far more attributable to Wade's role in the offense as a driver vs. Kobe's role in the offense as a perimeter to mid-range jump shooter. TS% kills those stats, in which case it becomes a case of "whose stats are better". So it behooves you to throw every other players stats out the window but Jordan's since they both played triangle. But then you have to factor in Kobe having to play alongside Shaq as more or less a facilitator who dominated on the perimeter in case teams tried to overload on Shaq. You have to factor in that Jordan went on many scoring binges when he didn't even play in the triangle offense. You have to factor in that many of Kobe's high scoring games came when his teammates were much less efficient than Jordan's. You have to factor in...

You get where I am going with this? Well if you don't, my point is that your stats leave out way too many gaps to make a formidable case for Kobe being any more selfish than the players you mentioned. In fact, using those same stats and substituting TS% and assist numbers for players within the triangle offense, you will find Kobe has way above average stats for a perimeter player in the offense both in regards to shooting % and assists.

You stat heads amuse me.

Everyone should know by now that stats can be slanted to push biased agenda. It is why statistics are the favoured propaganda tool in politics. I find it to be exactly the same in sports. Stats are extremely useful.. but when you use them to support a particular viewpoint but then also extrapolate the large gaps the stats don't take care of you end up pushing a suspect argument.

Just because stats 'can' be manipulated doesn't mean they are. You're being a moron to talk about the triangle as if it's responsible for Kobe's steadily declining numbers in comparison to.... HIMSELF in the same offense!

What its really about is this thing call maturity. It was in MJ's early years that he was more selfish he realized it hurt his team and changed his game to win. He did that by learning how to use his scoring to help make his teammates better. So, here's one more for you, MJ in the triangle offense, it does not help your case.

MJ, 23 Ways To Make You Pay, once he actually played in the triangle

FG%: 58.3%
dimes: 5.07(.2 drop mind you playing in the triangle)
>= points/dimes/differential
40 / 4.73 / -0.34
45 / 4.26 / -0.81
50 / 4.54 / -0.53
55 / 4.75 / -0.32

As you can see, MJ's dimes never drop more then a full assist and the more dominantly he scores the more dimes, IN THE TRIANGLE, he actually gets. So we can arrive at two things from this.

1. After playing for years in the triangle, Kobe does not understand the offense or know how to use it properly.

2. Kobe's career is that of a selfish player who forgets about his teammates the moment he starts to find his rhythm. While other greats like MJ were like this, playing in offenses that apparently are easier to get assists in when you score lots of points, once they matured and entered an offense that's harder to get assists in, their dimes actually increased due to the maturity and lack of selfishness that was evident in his game, the same way the entered the league mature players like Lebron and Wade got from the get go, probably by watching tape of Jordan and Kobe and seeing first hand what and what not to do to be successful in the league.

Not that you're going to be capable of accepting anything even slightly negative about the guy you're jock rockin, or actually reference any of the solid points I made. I'm cool with that. Failure to address someone's points in an argument is an admission of defeat, so thanks. I would be interested to actually talk about the stats I made here with someone who's not afraid to critically look at their star (and others, its not limited to Kobe at all) on a level a little more sophisticated then racist analogies and ignoring people by typing blah blah blah blah. Cheers ISH!

[Mor'Fiyah]

I don't think my opinion is fact, at all, but I think its totally objective. If anyone hurt another player, looked away, and got up and walked away with a pissed off look on their faces while a guy was writhing in pain, I'd say the exact same things about them. Objective only means I'm looking at it fairly and assessing it without an agenda. I am. I don't like Kobe but its cuz of how he behaves at times like this that make me not like him.



I don't buy it. Which face of KG's hasn't he made? 'n yea, Kobe does all those things... they're all, I dunno, they just seem staged a lot of the time. Look at this one... I think his teammates agree with me. But he's talented and on their team, so they put up with it.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_-K0Zhn0I6Dk/Si4gG-TR3wI/AAAAAAAAAFA/I7BDwu8Qc_E/s400/kobe%20sucks.jpg

KG is just an emotional freak who can't stop himself from dropping F bombs, yelling and reacting to the moment. I believe that after years of watching him be a crazy mofo and after watching his break down to tears on TV. KG strikes me as genuine and Kobe does not. Kobe strikes me as he looks in the above picture and the way he looks when he's in his 'rap' video with Tyra Banks. I don't think the guy knows who he is so he pretends to be someone he thinks people think he should be.

The guy is absolutely fascinating. Have you read PJ's book? I think thats the closest we get to Kobe cuz I think PJ wrote it thinking he was never going to coach the guy again.

Objective means devoid of emotional bias. It also means observation presented FACTUALLY. We know you don't like Kobe. We know I like him. We both have an emotional bias that, whether we like to admit it or are conscious of it, has a good chance of seeping into our analysis. Therefore when we both see one thing and look at it differently, and none of our observations are based on facts, then either both of us or one of us is not being objective. The problem here is that you just insist you are being objective, while I, knowing the nature of objectivity and human bias am prepared to admit that I may very well be subjective and that my opinion on the Bynum situation is based on subjective observation and not on facts.

Kevin Garnett does not strike me as genuine. But I understand thats subjective analysis. You do not. In your eyes Kobe appears fake, and since you believe yourself to be an objective person, he therefore must be fake. And what I meant was KG's particular mug face he has been making while sitting on the bench in THESE playoffs, we haven't seen from him before. Its new.

But even if you think Kobe is fake and he comes up with different poses and gestures all the time... then isn't this new gesture from Kobe consistent with who Kobe is? He has consistently found new quirks to display season after season, game after game, series after series, right? Isn't that just Kobe then? Is the fact that he has a new quirk never before seen something that is weird all of a sudden?

[Mor'Fiyah]

That's the weakest rebuttal I've 'ever' had anyone give me about anything. When Kobe scores more he can't create offense for anyone but himself. Its not his 'role' in the triangle offense because his differentials, which I compared him to other players on, are based on his own production in the triangle offense over the exact same span of time. Even when performing modest high scoring outputs his ability to create is dramatically worse then Jordan's when they played in the same triangle offense.

When Kobe scores more points his play making suffers more then any other player in the game, who's production either stays the same or increases. Except for Jordan, who was always his team's best chance of scoring in such games due to his 60% FG% and 0 dominant post players and still dropped less then 1 assist even in 50 point games.



Wow. Maybe I have to actually make it simpler for you. Perhaps I am not making myself clear. I will try again:

MJ and Kobe are the only two players that you posted whose stats show this dramatic drop off that you talk about. They are also the only two players who play in similar team systems. My question, which you completely ignored, is, MIGHT IT BE POSSIBLE THAT THIS DROPOFF IN ASSIST STATS IS NOT DUE TO THE PLAYERS INHERENT SELFISHNESS BUT RATHER DUE TO THE PARTICULAR SYSTEMS OF PLAY THEY HAVE BOTH HAD TO PLAY IN? A la the triangle offense? You then have to factor in the level of their teammates, how good the team was, in breaking the offense did they have to play rogue offense and just go one on one, were they required to by their coaches to win a game, etc.

As for the discrepancy in FG%, I legitimately rebutted that by showing how this disparity, while in favour of MJ, is not anywhere near what your FG% stats show because Kobe is more of a perimeter player than MJ and thus TS% is a much better measure of their efficiency in the offense. MJ was more efficient sure (but MJ is more efficient than just about every SG who ever lived and scored near those numbers... so no sleight on Kobe there as even you have admitted).

My point then is that your stats are in black and white and do not show the myriad factors of grey that also color the landscape of reality. So you ignore them. You then also attempt to compare him to other players who do not play within the same system and are not susceptible to the same assist disadvantage that only Kobe and MJ were susceptible to because of the OFFENSE and not because of their supposed inherent selfishness. You further exacerbate your exaggerations by comparing Kobe to the most efficient perimeter player of all time who has not played the same number of years in the triangle as Kobe, and who has had better teammates to rely on for longer periods of time than Kobe. Your comparisons are simply not OBJECTIVE (there goes that word again).



I'm not even going to dignify your ridiculous killing babies thing... sports are much, much simpler then socio-economic trends of racial communities with regard to prison populations. Actually, you know, its just disrespectful. I took you seriously and put time into answering you, and you just made this BS example of racism.

This is 'exactly' how kobe's fans are not objective. You can't accept the guy has any flaws at all. You're not worth the effort. Would anyone else like to talk about the stuff I made there?

I am thinking the exact same thing about you. I said the analogy was harsh did I not? But I used it to showcase a basic point: That stats can be used to support a subjective (and wrong) viewpoint and that a person can believe themself to be objective till they are blue in the face and it really doesn't mean that they are being subjective no matter how many stats they spew out.

But maybe I hit a nerve. :confusedshrug:

[Mor'Fiyah]

Just because stats 'can' be manipulated doesn't mean they are. You're being a moron to talk about the triangle as if it's responsible for Kobe's steadily declining numbers in comparison to.... HIMSELF in the same offense!


Really? They why does this same decline happen to the one other comparable superstar who ... surprise surprise ... also played in this offense? Coincedence right? I think not. Try again.



What its really about is this thing call maturity. It was in MJ's early years that he was more selfish he realized it hurt his team and changed his game to win. He did that by learning how to use his scoring to help make his teammates better. So, here's one more for you, MJ in the triangle offense, it does not help your case.

MJ, 23 Ways To Make You Pay, once he actually played in the triangle

FG%: 58.3%
dimes: 5.07(.2 drop mind you playing in the triangle)
>= points/dimes/differential
40 / 4.73 / -0.34
45 / 4.26 / -0.81
50 / 4.54 / -0.53
55 / 4.75 / -0.32

As you can see, MJ's dimes never drop more then a full assist and the more dominantly he scores the more dimes, IN THE TRIANGLE, he actually gets. So we can arrive at two things from this.

1. After playing for years in the triangle, Kobe does not understand the offense or know how to use it properly.

2. Kobe's career is that of a selfish player who forgets about his teammates the moment he starts to find his rhythm. While other greats like MJ were like this, playing in offenses that apparently are easier to get assists in when you score lots of points, once they matured and entered an offense that's harder to get assists in, their dimes actually increased due to the maturity and lack of selfishness that was evident in his game, the same way the entered the league mature players like Lebron and Wade got from the get go, probably by watching tape of Jordan and Kobe and seeing first hand what and what not to do to be successful in the league.

Not that you're going to be capable of accepting anything even slightly negative about the guy you're jock rockin, or actually reference any of the solid points I made. I'm cool with that. Failure to address someone's points in an argument is an admission of defeat, so thanks. I would be interested to actually talk about the stats I made here with someone who's not afraid to critically look at their star (and others, its not limited to Kobe at all) on a level a little more sophisticated then racist analogies and ignoring people by typing blah blah blah blah. Cheers ISH!

It looks like you are getting pretty heated about this thing. If I offended you with the racist analogy I apologise. I meant no offense. I don't apologise for the blah blah blah. Thats the way I see your slanted stats. Its not just your stats... its stats of that nature that people use to model real life. Its just not the same.

For instance, you at least admitted that the triangle does seem to have an affect on assists. So thats a start. So you extrapolate Jordan's numbers within the triangle. Great! But you are still missing many shades of grey here... for instance... didn't Kobe's team start out better and then progressively get worse such that his particular situation more or less was Jordan's in reverse? The same thing can be said of their roles in the offense. Jordan shared more as his teammates got better. Kobe was required to share less as his teammates got worse. You cannot then just do a comparison on the chronological phases of their careers. A better (not necessarily objective) comparison would have been to compare Kobe's numbers while he facilitated the offense with a comparable Lakers team to Jordan's numbers facilitating the offense with his Bulls team. Instead what you have done is compare Kobe's numbers while playing with the best player in the league and then while playing with Kwame Brown to Jordan's numbers while playing with one of the best teams in the league even without him on the team. A laughable comparison at best.

By the way... just because I am too lazy to always break apart your lengthy posts into sub posts and address each doesn't mean I haven't addressed ALL of your points.

Summary: You claim Kobe must be selfish because his assist numbers as he scores more points decrease dramatically while only Jordan has a similar drop off, but that drop off is understandable because of his FG%

I addressed this by pointing out that your comparisons with the other players were unfair because they play in different offensive systems that often required them to play point as well as SG and provide catch and shoot situations. I also addressed the Jordan FG% by pointing out that Kobe plays further out on the perimeter and he was REQUIRED to. He played with the most dominant inside force the game has ever seen. I also addressed you comparing him to Jordan as well (even though its a better comparison that the others) because of the level of Jordan's teammates while playing in the triangle and the efficiency of that team while playing in the triangle. In contrast Kobe's scoring binges increased as his teammates (and team) got worse.

Please point out what I have failed to address and I will be happy to address it for you.

[poido123]

I didn't "cherrypick" anything, I chose those posts only because you admit to being biased/hating Kobe in them.

And fyi, I post on this forum because I love the NBA. I like watching and talking basketball.

I DONT like hating on players constantly and trying to break them down ala PleeezBelieve/BruceBlitz and I thought that's where you were going with this thread so I responded accordingly.

If I was wrong, my bad. It's just tiring to see people beat the same dead horse so often.

BruceBlitz is not in the same category as PleezBelieve, BB has a much more rounded opinion, with more knowledge behind most of his posts...

[poido123]

The internet breeds all kinds of misinformation and bad commentary. MJ is a legend. Kobe still has a great chance to achieve legend status.

No one ever said all legends are equal. I am extremely happy to have a player like Mr. Bean in Tinseltown. I will be extremely said the day he leaves/retires.

Some fans need to find perspective and enjoy what they have right now and forget the past. MJ is the past. Kobe is the present. LeBron is the future. That is how I look at it. It keeps me sane.
I wont be sad when he retires :confusedshrug:

Kobe wont be a legend ever, a very good player even great player, but not legend...

[DTD]

I wont be sad when he retires :confusedshrug:

Kobe wont be a legend ever, a very good player even great player, but not legend...

Unfortunately for you, Kobe already is a basketball legend. It's not even debatable.

[MaxFly]

In the Dallas or Raptors game? I counted 16 in th dallas game and 20 in the raps one.

Raptors... I have 5/9 for 14 points in the first quarter and 5/7 for 12 points in the second quarter. 26 points at the half.

[indiefan23]

Unfortunately for you, Kobe already is a basketball legend. It's not even debatable.

Hmm... DTD, that depends on what you think a legend is. Kobe, at best, is very debatable and controversial and this is pretty much the peak of everything of who he is. His star is gonna start fading pretty soon and when the hype dies down and stops fueling that segment of his fans who think of him as being much more then what he really is, he's going to be looked at quite a bit differently. The reason Jordan is the GOAT, and its a given, is because he successfully silenced all his doubters. Even his largest detractors, and there were MANY, just agreed during his career that he was the greatest ever. Kobe hasn't done that at all. For every guy who loves him there's another who hates him as a player, so I'm not sure what kind of guy he's going to go down as. I tink his window to silence every is basically closed. It doesn't really matter if he wins this year. Guy who won on stacked teams, lost on stacked teams and did nothing on decent teams is who he is. Kobe just didn't win enough to be a LEGEND in my books. He's a really good player who reached his potential as an individual but wasn't very good at translating it into team success in my books. Kobe hasn't done much to change my books and whether you think I'm just a bias hater (I'm not, though I hate the guy) it doesn't matter, because my books count, as does everyone else who thinks he's over rated, they all count in how this guy goes down. Unless he changes, plays team ball, and makes his teammates WAY better, he's never going to be that guy. You've got to do more then score points to be that guy. Kobe comes up short.

[indiefan23]

Really? They why does this same decline happen to the one other comparable superstar who ... surprise surprise ... also played in this offense? Coincedence right? I think not. Try again.

The same decline does not happen. Jordan's dimes drop a bit when he's hitting 60% of his shots to score more then 40, but its less then an assist, its a third of an assist, and they start to go up again once he gets into 50 point teritory. Kobe's dimes drop continuously to the point that when he has really big nights his gets half the assists. And Jordan's tiny drop is due to him hitting 60%, not Kobe's 50%. You also have to consider that Kobe's negative differential is 8 FREAKING TIMES Jordan's!

Can I also state that claiming the triangle kills your ability to get assists, that's stupid in general. Not passing the ball kills your ability to get dimes. Can I also state that his assist differential, the thing I'm using to compare is Kobe all the time, in the triangle, to Kobe scoring big points, in the triangle. Its all in the triangle.



It looks like you are getting pretty heated about this thing. If I offended you with the racist analogy I apologise. I meant no offense. I don't apologise for the blah blah blah. Thats the way I see your slanted stats. Its not just your stats... its stats of that nature that people use to model real life. Its just not the same.

The only thing you insulted was my intelligence. You've got the veracity of a holocaust denier behind you.


For instance, you at least admitted that the triangle does seem to have an affect on assists.

At least you admitted that Kobe's most memorable games tend to be one dimensional. Even if the triangle affects your ability to get dimes, it does not matter, because the triangle does not affect your ability to get dimes when you score 50 any more then it affects your ability to get dimes when you score 30, and THAT is what I compared him on.


So thats a start. So you extrapolate Jordan's numbers within the triangle. Great! But you are still missing many shades of grey here... for instance... didn't Kobe's team start out better and then progressively get worse such that his particular situation more or less was Jordan's in reverse?

Umm... no. There was plenty of dead weight on Jordan's teams.


The same thing can be said of their roles in the offense. Jordan shared more as his teammates got better. Kobe was required to share less as his teammates got worse. You cannot then just do a comparison on the chronological phases of their careers.

No, you can't, cuz Kobe never entered a mature phase.


A better (not necessarily objective) comparison would have been to compare Kobe's numbers while he facilitated the offense with a comparable Lakers team to Jordan's numbers facilitating the offense with his Bulls team. Instead what you have done is compare Kobe's numbers while playing with the best player

So you want me to compare Kobe's #'s as a second fiddle feeding an unstoppable Shaq who's coat tails he rode? Thats slanting statistics, my friend. I took Kobe's numbers for every year he was the best player on his team the same as everyone else.


in the league and then while playing with Kwame Brown to Jordan's numbers while playing with one of the best teams in the league even without him on the team.

Cuz Luc Longly is AWESOME huh? And like, starting Stacy King and Scott Williams. What about compared to Wade or Bron who's teams were way, way worse then anything Kobe has played with.


By the way... just because I am too lazy to always break apart your lengthy posts into sub posts and address each doesn't mean I haven't addressed ALL of your points.

Yes, it does mean that. See how I address your points here? You don't do that, you just say blah and repeat a bunch of stuff that was wrong before, I showed to be wrong, and is still wrong.


Summary: You claim Kobe must be selfish because his assist numbers as he scores more points decrease dramatically while only Jordan has a similar drop off, but that drop off is understandable because of his FG%

No, I claim it because his drop off is 8 times Jordan's is nothing like Jordan's drop off, which is less then a single assist, unlike kobe, who averages HALF his assists, and its a drop off thats like 10 to 20 times worse then other players who score like he does. Almost every other big time scorer manages to actually improve their team stat or not have a very significant drop off at all. Every other player scores more points by elevating their FG%.


I addressed this by pointing out that your comparisons with the other players were unfair because they play in different offensive systems that often required them to play point as well as SG and provide catch and shoot situations.

Which makes 0 sense since Kobe has the ball in his hands all the time and does the same thing. ;0


I also addressed the Jordan FG% by pointing out that Kobe plays further out on the perimeter and he was REQUIRED to. He played with the most dominant inside force the game has ever seen.

Which is why all the Kobe stats come from when Shaq was gone.

[qutoe]I also addressed you comparing him to Jordan as well (even though its a better comparison that the others) because of the level of Jordan's teammates while playing in the triangle and the efficiency of that team while playing in the triangle. In contrast Kobe's scoring binges increased as his teammates (and team) got worse.[/quote]

Which is BS. Jordan made his teammates better as he played with them BECAUSE he set them up and they learned to play off of him. Kobe's teammates have progressively gotten worse.


Please point out what I have failed to address and I will be happy to address it for you.

Okay, Kobe scores lots of points by forcing shots instead of passing. When compared to his 'own' production in games where he scores less points, his assists drop in comparison to his own production in games where he scores lots of points.

This is the thing about how I'm comparing players. It does not really matter what kind of system they're playing in. I'm not knocking Kobe for having 6.5 dimes less then Lebron when scoring 50 points, or for having 35% of Wade's 8+ dimes when scoring over 45. The whole point of what I did was to negate the bias that a team's offensive system introduces to such comparison, and that's the point you are missing and totally ignoring.

I'm comparing how Kobe plays when scoring an average amount of points to how Kobe plays when he scores a huge amount of points. The rest of his game drops off, and drops off at a rate WAY more then other players when you compare them to themselves in their own systems scoring lots of points. Other player's actually see increases to the rest of their game when their scoring increases.

The only guys who don't are Jordan, Iverson and Kobe. Three players who absolutely played some of the most selfish ball ever, and recieved criticism for it. In Iverson's case, he's been killed for it.

In Jordan's case, he was killed for it but does get a bit of a pass since he was the GOAT, his teams played well around him and hell, he shot 60% playing that way so would he really get a better shot from someone else, and aside from that, when he scored lots of points he still involved his team. When he scored 69 he had 6 dimes, and 18 rebounds. 18! He scored 59 with 6 dimes. 57 with 10. But then again, I've already pointed this all out to you, right? But like, that's the point I'm making. You cowardly avoid strong points cuz you can't bear to admit your guy's flaws. Like I said.... calling your arguments objective is like calling gas chambers showers.

[indiefan23]

Raptors... I have 5/9 for 14 points in the first quarter and 5/7 for 12 points in the second quarter. 26 points at the half.

Hmm... maybe I was wrong then. Either way, I think SG was wrong to critisize differently like that, but I do kind of agree with both points. The Dallas game could have been a legitimate moment. The Raptors game to me almost almost seemed like a make up for the wasted Dallas moment, but it was tainted because the Raptors were so bloody terrible.

Its ironic cuz its kind of a contradiction in Kobe's play too don't you think? Like, in one game Kobe sits out the 4'th quarter saying "oh no, the game is over, I don't play for stats", but then a few weeks later he's still shooting when he's up 20 with 43 seconds left in the game vs a craptacular Raptors team and his teammates take a total of 3 shots in the 4'th quarter??

Its a contradiction by Simmons but only slightly. In both cases he has a point. In Dallas he's saying "what do you mean you don't play for stats, you're Kobe, everyone knows you play for stats so why didn't you make it happen?" in the other "So now you play for stats and jack up 46 shots vs the crappiest team in the league? hypocrite" I don't know if that's what was in his head but it makes sense to me.

Side note: 46 shots is crazy. Only 3 players since 85 have put up 45 shots or more. 1 was Jordan with 49. He gets a pass I think though cuz that was his game vs Shaq and he giving his his welcome to the league game. That WAS a moment. The other was Webber who does not get a pass. The other 3 games are Kobe's. To Kobe's credit, he picked a terrible team to do it against, as every other game where someone jacks 45 or more the chucker has lost.

[poido123]

Hmm... maybe I was wrong then. Either way, I think SG was wrong to critisize differently like that, but I do kind of agree with both points. The Dallas game could have been a legitimate moment. The Raptors game to me almost almost seemed like a make up for the wasted Dallas moment, but it was tainted because the Raptors were so bloody terrible.

Its ironic cuz its kind of a contradiction in Kobe's play too don't you think? Like, in one game Kobe sits out the 4'th quarter saying "oh no, the game is over, I don't play for stats", but then a few weeks later he's still shooting when he's up 20 with 43 seconds left in the game vs a craptacular Raptors team and his teammates take a total of 3 shots in the 4'th quarter??

Its a contradiction by Simmons but only slightly. In both cases he has a point. In Dallas he's saying "what do you mean you don't play for stats, you're Kobe, everyone knows you play for stats so why didn't you make it happen?" in the other "So now you play for stats and jack up 46 shots vs the crappiest team in the league? hypocrite" I don't know if that's what was in his head but it makes sense to me.

Side note: 46 shots is crazy. Only 3 players since 85 have put up 45 shots or more. 1 was Jordan with 49. He gets a pass I think though cuz that was his game vs Shaq and he giving his his welcome to the league game. That WAS a moment. The other was Webber who does not get a pass. The other 3 games are Kobe's. To Kobe's credit, he picked a terrible team to do it against, as every other game where someone jacks 45 or more the chucker has lost.

I take my hat off to someone who can write such long posts with good information...I'm a fan of yours, but hey, I'm easily sold if you like Jordan :cheers:

[Mor'Fiyah]

The same decline does not happen. Jordan's dimes drop a bit when he's hitting 60% of his shots to score more then 40, but its less then an assist, its a third of an assist, and they start to go up again once he gets into 50 point teritory. Kobe's dimes drop continuously to the point that when he has really big nights his gets half the assists. And Jordan's tiny drop is due to him hitting 60%, not Kobe's 50%. You also have to consider that Kobe's negative differential is 8 FREAKING TIMES Jordan's!

Can I also state that claiming the triangle kills your ability to get assists, that's stupid in general. Not passing the ball kills your ability to get dimes. Can I also state that his assist differential, the thing I'm using to compare is Kobe all the time, in the triangle, to Kobe scoring big points, in the triangle. Its all in the triangle.


Yet notice that Jordan's assist totals are still considerably less than the other players you posted while playing during his mature, unselfish years as you yourself state. So what does that mean? That Jordan was a relatively poor passer? Or still selfish? OR THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE REDUCES ASSISTS ESPECIALLY WHEN A PLAYER GOES ROGUE AND BREAKS THE OFFENSE WITH ISOS? Or maybe you believe that Jordan's teammates were less efficient than Wade's Arenas' and Lebron's? You tell me. It looks like even your stats prove that the triangle offense was not assist friendly.

As for the negligible drop off in Jordan's assist numbers as he scores more and more points in the triangle... further shades of grey that you seem to think don't factor into the stats. Teammate efficiency for instance. Steve Kerr and Paxson and Pippen and Kukoc were all better catch and shoot players than any of the guys Kobe played with AS THE NUMBER ONE OPTION IN THE TRIANGLE until now. Competent teammates and a veteran championship level team played a big part in whether Jordan scored tons of points while still playing within the offense vs. Kobe having to break the offense to keep the Lakers in the game and on whether or not teammates were converting chances. How you can dismiss this is unbelievable to me.



At least you admitted that Kobe's most memorable games tend to be one dimensional. Even if the triangle affects your ability to get dimes, it does not matter, because the triangle does not affect your ability to get dimes when you score 50 any more then it affects your ability to get dimes when you score 30, and THAT is what I compared him on.


The triangle affects your ability to get dimes overall period. It is why very few players have high assist numbers in the triangle relative to other offenses. In addition. Breaking the triangle means that you are playing iso offense and you are even less likely to get assists. Kobe's scoring binges coincide with him breaking the offense to score and keep his team competitive. Jordan's, in comparison, did not have to do this as often because his team was better.



Umm... no. There was plenty of dead weight on Jordan's teams.


BS. Compare Jordan's triangle offense Bulls team with the Lakers team before Gasol. Shame on you. Toni Kukoc, Scottie Pippen, Paxson, Kerr, Armstrong, Grant, Even Longley and co. were better players than Kwame Brown.



No, you can't, cuz Kobe never entered a mature phase.


... says the biased people. Everyone else believes he is trusting his teammates more and having better assist nights, shooting the ball less, etc.



So you want me to compare Kobe's #'s as a second fiddle feeding an unstoppable Shaq who's coat tails he rode? Thats slanting statistics, my friend. I took Kobe's numbers for every year he was the best player on his team the same as everyone else.


Right. But you then compare Kobe as #1 on a terrible team with Jordan as # 1 on a great team (perhaps one the greatest ever), with other players in different systems. And then you think the comparisons are fair. If this were a scientific experiment you would get a fail.



Cuz Luc Longly is AWESOME huh? And like, starting Stacy King and Scott Williams. What about compared to Wade or Bron who's teams were way, way worse then anything Kobe has played with.


Better by far than Kwame Brown. And Smush Parker. Kobe has had as bad a team as any of those players for a number of years. AND HE PLAYS IN THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE. Remember? You keep bringing up the same crap.

Its like this...

Kobe compared to Lebron, Wade, Arenas. FAIL. Different systems of offense. All of those guys had better assist numbers than Jordan in the triangle. Why?

Kobe compared to Jordan. PARTIAL FAIL. Same offense... but different team competency. Find another argument.



Yes, it does mean that. See how I address your points here? You don't do that, you just say blah and repeat a bunch of stuff that was wrong before, I showed to be wrong, and is still wrong.


I addressed your points. You just have a problem with the format. So I changed the format and wrote the exact same things so you have no excuse this time. Address the effects of different team offense, and player competency, or else lose the argument.



No, I claim it because his drop off is 8 times Jordan's is nothing like Jordan's drop off, which is less then a single assist, unlike kobe, who averages HALF his assists, and its a drop off thats like 10 to 20 times worse then other players who score like he does. Almost every other big time scorer manages to actually improve their team stat or not have a very significant drop off at all. Every other player scores more points by elevating their FG%.


Every other player except Jordan and Kobe. Jordan's numbers more or less stay the same. But he and Kobe are dwarfed by the other players. A sign that the offense affects assist totals. Jordan's lack of a drop off and higher assist totals than Kobe can be accounted for with his SIGNIFICANTLY better team. Its like a broken record now...



Which makes 0 sense since Kobe has the ball in his hands all the time and does the same thing. ;0


Rubbish. The offense doesn't affect assists because it reduces ball possession. It affects individual assist totals because the offense is predicated on ball movement rather than "I pass you shoot". You know this. Yet you continue to spew this garbage. Again... why is it that the other players have relatively higher assist numbers than BOTH KOBE AND JORDAN? You keep dodging that question.



Which is why all the Kobe stats come from when Shaq was gone.

Which is BS. Jordan made his teammates better as he played with them BECAUSE he set them up and they learned to play off of him. Kobe's teammates have progressively gotten worse.


Rubbish again. Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, even Gasol, Brown and Ariza have all seen increases in production playing with Bryant. Did Jordan make his teammates better. Yes. So does Kobe. The difference is Jordan's teammates were significantly better to begin with. Kukoc, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr, Rodman. The comparison is laughable and you know it. And Kobe has only had Gasol two years AND he has been in the finals those two years. Can't argue with those results can you?



Okay, Kobe scores lots of points by forcing shots instead of passing. When compared to his 'own' production in games where he scores less points, his assists drop in comparison to his own production in games where he scores lots of points.

This is the thing about how I'm comparing players. It does not really matter what kind of system they're playing in. I'm not knocking Kobe for having 6.5 dimes less then Lebron when scoring 50 points, or for having 35% of Wade's 8+ dimes when scoring over 45. The whole point of what I did was to negate the bias that a team's offensive system introduces to such comparison, and that's the point you are missing and totally ignoring.

I'm comparing how Kobe plays when scoring an average amount of points to how Kobe plays when he scores a huge amount of points. The rest of his game drops off, and drops off at a rate WAY more then other players when you compare them to themselves in their own systems scoring lots of points. Other player's actually see increases to the rest of their game when their scoring increases.

The only guys who don't are Jordan, Iverson and Kobe. Three players who absolutely played some of the most selfish ball ever, and recieved criticism for it. In Iverson's case, he's been killed for it.

In Jordan's case, he was killed for it but does get a bit of a pass since he was the GOAT, his teams played well around him and hell, he shot 60% playing that way so would he really get a better shot from someone else, and aside from that, when he scored lots of points he still involved his team. When he scored 69 he had 6 dimes, and 18 rebounds. 18! He scored 59 with 6 dimes. 57 with 10. But then again, I've already pointed this all out to you, right? But like, that's the point I'm making. You cowardly avoid strong points cuz you can't bear to admit your guy's flaws. Like I said.... calling your arguments objective is like calling gas chambers showers.

Ah I see. So you never mentioned a thing about the other players having much more assists than Kobe did you? Here let me quote you on this...



Wade/Lebron has big games by elevating his overall play as opposed to focusing his energy on a highly visible category. This is why when he a big night all his cats go up. When scoring 45 points or more Wade averages 1.48 assists more then normal, almost a full assist better then when scoring 40 points, and over 5 more assists, on average, then Kobe when he scores 45 points. 5 assists is a big deal.


But, that said, the major part of your argument is the assist differential... which, to be honest, isnt even a strong argument since the players that do have increased totals, have much smaller sample sizes and they even drop off as they approach 50 points with the exception of Lebron (and I have my theories on Lebron). They may not drop off after 45 ... but then they do after 50. In addition your emphasis on differentials in the same offense still doesn't take the bias of the offense out of the equation because, often huge totals in the triangle mean the triangle offense is being sabotaged and the players have to be competent enough to read off of the iso'd player. In the case of Jordan's Bulls, I believe they were. In the case of Kobe's Lakers they weren't there yet. They are finally getting better and you are seeing the benefits of that, but during Kobe's higher scoring years they just weren't good enough yet. In stark contrast, Cleveland's offense is predicated on Lebron iso's or drive and kicks so much so that when he scores a lot it isn't because he changed the offense... its because he just took more shots within the same system or scored at a better efficiency or played longer minutes. Very different situations that your stats simply ignore.

Now try to practice what you preach and address some of the deficiencies I pointed out in your stats and how you intend to breach them. Please.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Hmm... maybe I was wrong then. Either way, I think SG was wrong to critisize differently like that, but I do kind of agree with both points. The Dallas game could have been a legitimate moment. The Raptors game to me almost almost seemed like a make up for the wasted Dallas moment, but it was tainted because the Raptors were so bloody terrible.

Its ironic cuz its kind of a contradiction in Kobe's play too don't you think? Like, in one game Kobe sits out the 4'th quarter saying "oh no, the game is over, I don't play for stats", but then a few weeks later he's still shooting when he's up 20 with 43 seconds left in the game vs a craptacular Raptors team and his teammates take a total of 3 shots in the 4'th quarter??

Its a contradiction by Simmons but only slightly. In both cases he has a point. In Dallas he's saying "what do you mean you don't play for stats, you're Kobe, everyone knows you play for stats so why didn't you make it happen?" in the other "So now you play for stats and jack up 46 shots vs the crappiest team in the league? hypocrite" I don't know if that's what was in his head but it makes sense to me.

Side note: 46 shots is crazy. Only 3 players since 85 have put up 45 shots or more. 1 was Jordan with 49. He gets a pass I think though cuz that was his game vs Shaq and he giving his his welcome to the league game. That WAS a moment. The other was Webber who does not get a pass. The other 3 games are Kobe's. To Kobe's credit, he picked a terrible team to do it against, as every other game where someone jacks 45 or more the chucker has lost.

Yet no one comes close to scoring 81 points against these same Raptors who, incidentally, were also up double digits (think it was 14) in the third quarter. Who cares how terrible the team is? So if the team is a bad team you allow them to beat you rather than take 45 shots at an insane %?! :confusedshrug:

By the way. Most NBA fans would insist that 81 points in a game was also a "moment".

[indiefan23]

Yet no one comes close to scoring 81 points against these same Raptors who, incidentally, were also up double digits (think it was 14) in the third quarter. Who cares how terrible the team is? So if the team is a bad team you allow them to beat you rather than take 45 shots at an insane %?! :confusedshrug:

By the way. Most NBA fans would insist that 81 points in a game was also a "moment".

Uh, I'm not saying its not a moment. 81 points is 81 points. I just think its hyped, a lot. Its not better then 69 vs a good defensive team with 18 boards and 6 dimes. I don't think it compares to 63 6 5 vs the 86 Celtics (very arguably the GOAT team) in the playoffs.

Bringing it down to earth is not diminishing it. It was a great game. It wasn't the greatest offensive display ever like it was madly hyped up to be when it happened.

Honestly here, this is part of why Kobe stuff gets so much flack. When he does anything bad, it gets swept under the rug, and the moment he does something well, its purported to be further evidence he's the best ever. Kobe is really, really good. He's playing better now then probably ever.

I think something clicked in that Denver series. He'd been doing his usual thing, was very lucky to get by Houston and was in trouble with Denver and he started playing a little differently. I'm with Simmons, I don't think he got 8 legit dimes, but he's playing like he should play now and its paying dividends.

Thing is, I don't think anyone like me has a problem with that. Its the hype trying to make him something he's not, and some of that's deserved because like it or lump it, Kobe spent most of his career thinking he was, and trying himself to be something he's not. Most Kobe fans admit that now but its taken a while. If Kobe wasn't trying to be 'the best' and instead was just Kobe, and whoever that turns out to be is cool, he would have 0 problems with his rep and wouldn't need the army of cult-like fans. Just my opinion.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Uh, I'm not saying its not a moment. 81 points is 81 points. I just think its hyped, a lot. Its not better then 69 vs a good defensive team with 18 boards and 6 dimes. I don't think it compares to 63 6 5 vs the 86 Celtics (very arguably the GOAT team) in the playoffs.


Whether you think there are one or two or even three more offensive displays better than it is neither here nor there. No matter how you spin it, Kobe's 81 points will rank as ONE OF the greatest individual performances in history. We can all find dault with Wilt's 100 (and people have). But its still a highly regarded performance. If you want to argue that its possible to overhype 100 points in a game or 81 points in a game thats another story all together.

Immediately after Kobe scored the 62 on Dallas he got roasted in the media for checking out of the game and not taking advantage of his hot streak. So then comes the Raptors game not long after and a similar thing happens. Only this time Kobe HAS to score at a high rate because they are losing to the game. Does he do the exact same thing he did in the game before that he got killed for?! How does this guy win in your eyes?! Why not offer up an alternative for what Kobe should have done instead? Seriously. What path could he have taken that would not have lead to criticism?



Bringing it down to earth is not diminishing it. It was a great game. It wasn't the greatest offensive display ever like it was madly hyped up to be when it happened.


It was madly hyped up to be one of the greatest offensive displays ever. Some people thought it was the best. Some thought it was one of the best. Some people valued the aesthetics of the way he scored etc. I see nothing over hyped about it. People rarely even mention it anymore.



Honestly here, this is part of why Kobe stuff gets so much flack. When he does anything bad, it gets swept under the rug, and the moment he does something well, its purported to be further evidence he's the best ever. Kobe is really, really good. He's playing better now then probably ever.


So essentially you hate the subset of Kobe fans that fail to criticise him? So do many of us... including other Kobe fans. But that doesn't mean we then try to point out every single flaws and then make some up that aren't even there. In fact, the media does a very commendable job of pointing out anything Kobe does wrong. If you are trying to say there are some fans that do that then ok. If you think Kobe has been free of criticism and allowed to get away with stuff I completely disagree. I think Kobe gets more than his fair share of flak and there is alot of it that is unfair.



I think something clicked in that Denver series. He'd been doing his usual thing, was very lucky to get by Houston and was in trouble with Denver and he started playing a little differently. I'm with Simmons, I don't think he got 8 legit dimes, but he's playing like he should play now and its paying dividends.

Thing is, I don't think anyone like me has a problem with that. Its the hype trying to make him something he's not, and some of that's deserved because like it or lump it, Kobe spent most of his career thinking he was, and trying himself to be something he's not. Most Kobe fans admit that now but its taken a while. If Kobe wasn't trying to be 'the best' and instead was just Kobe, and whoever that turns out to be is cool, he would have 0 problems with his rep and wouldn't need the army of cult-like fans. Just my opinion.

Again, here is where you interject your bias. First off Kobe is not the one who has tried to make himself into something he is not. He isn't writing the articles or posting on forums. He has always said he WANTS to be the best and has never claimed to be the best or better than Jordan or anyone before. Anything else you might think of him is your projected bias. Maybe he "acts" like the best by being cocky on the court and you don't like it ... I dunno. You hate Kobe in large part because of things Kobe has no control over. Its extremely unfair.

Like Simmons... you just can't fathom that with better teammates he could score 40 points and also get 8 assists. So you believe they padded his stats. Incredible! Do they do this for any other players? Or do you think they only do this for Bryant? Are you sure you think you are being objective?

[Killer_Instinct]

Yet notice that Jordan's assist totals are still considerably less than the other players you posted while playing during his mature, unselfish years as you yourself state. So what does that mean? That Jordan was a relatively poor passer? Or still selfish? OR THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE REDUCES ASSISTS ESPECIALLY WHEN A PLAYER GOES ROGUE AND BREAKS THE OFFENSE WITH ISOS? Or maybe you believe that Jordan's teammates were less efficient than Wade's Arenas' and Lebron's? You tell me. It looks like even your stats prove that the triangle offense was not assist friendly.

As for the negligible drop off in Jordan's assist numbers as he scores more and more points in the triangle... further shades of grey that you seem to think don't factor into the stats. Teammate efficiency for instance. Steve Kerr and Paxson and Pippen and Kukoc were all better catch and shoot players than any of the guys Kobe played with AS THE NUMBER ONE OPTION IN THE TRIANGLE until now. Competent teammates and a veteran championship level team played a big part in whether Jordan scored tons of points while still playing within the offense vs. Kobe having to break the offense to keep the Lakers in the game and on whether or not teammates were converting chances. How you can dismiss this is unbelievable to me.



The triangle affects your ability to get dimes overall period. It is why very few players have high assist numbers in the triangle relative to other offenses. In addition. Breaking the triangle means that you are playing iso offense and you are even less likely to get assists. Kobe's scoring binges coincide with him breaking the offense to score and keep his team competitive. Jordan's, in comparison, did not have to do this as often because his team was better.



BS. Compare Jordan's triangle offense Bulls team with the Lakers team before Gasol. Shame on you. Toni Kukoc, Scottie Pippen, Paxson, Kerr, Armstrong, Grant, Even Longley and co. were better players than Kwame Brown.



... says the biased people. Everyone else believes he is trusting his teammates more and having better assist nights, shooting the ball less, etc.



Right. But you then compare Kobe as #1 on a terrible team with Jordan as # 1 on a great team (perhaps one the greatest ever), with other players in different systems. And then you think the comparisons are fair. If this were a scientific experiment you would get a fail.



Better by far than Kwame Brown. And Smush Parker. Kobe has had as bad a team as any of those players for a number of years. AND HE PLAYS IN THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE. Remember? You keep bringing up the same crap.

Its like this...

Kobe compared to Lebron, Wade, Arenas. FAIL. Different systems of offense. All of those guys had better assist numbers than Jordan in the triangle. Why?

Kobe compared to Jordan. PARTIAL FAIL. Same offense... but different team competency. Find another argument.



I addressed your points. You just have a problem with the format. So I changed the format and wrote the exact same things so you have no excuse this time. Address the effects of different team offense, and player competency, or else lose the argument.



Every other player except Jordan and Kobe. Jordan's numbers more or less stay the same. But he and Kobe are dwarfed by the other players. A sign that the offense affects assist totals. Jordan's lack of a drop off and higher assist totals than Kobe can be accounted for with his SIGNIFICANTLY better team. Its like a broken record now...



Rubbish. The offense doesn't affect assists because it reduces ball possession. It affects individual assist totals because the offense is predicated on ball movement rather than "I pass you shoot". You know this. Yet you continue to spew this garbage. Again... why is it that the other players have relatively higher assist numbers than BOTH KOBE AND JORDAN? You keep dodging that question.



Rubbish again. Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, even Gasol, Brown and Ariza have all seen increases in production playing with Bryant. Did Jordan make his teammates better. Yes. So does Kobe. The difference is Jordan's teammates were significantly better to begin with. Kukoc, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr, Rodman. The comparison is laughable and you know it. And Kobe has only had Gasol two years AND he has been in the finals those two years. Can't argue with those results can you?



Ah I see. So you never mentioned a thing about the other players having much more assists than Kobe did you? Here let me quote you on this...



But, that said, the major part of your argument is the assist differential... which, to be honest, isnt even a strong argument since the players that do have increased totals, have much smaller sample sizes and they even drop off as they approach 50 points with the exception of Lebron (and I have my theories on Lebron). They may not drop off after 45 ... but then they do after 50. In addition your emphasis on differentials in the same offense still doesn't take the bias of the offense out of the equation because, often huge totals in the triangle mean the triangle offense is being sabotaged and the players have to be competent enough to read off of the iso'd player. In the case of Jordan's Bulls, I believe they were. In the case of Kobe's Lakers they weren't there yet. They are finally getting better and you are seeing the benefits of that, but during Kobe's higher scoring years they just weren't good enough yet. In stark contrast, Cleveland's offense is predicated on Lebron iso's or drive and kicks so much so that when he scores a lot it isn't because he changed the offense... its because he just took more shots within the same system or scored at a better efficiency or played longer minutes. Very different situations that your stats simply ignore.

Now try to practice what you preach and address some of the deficiencies I pointed out in your stats and how you intend to breach them. Please.


Again, here is where you interject your bias. First off Kobe is not the one who has tried to make himself into something he is not. He isn't writing the articles or posting on forums. He has always said he WANTS to be the best and has never claimed to be the best or better than Jordan or anyone before. Anything else you might think of him is your projected bias. Maybe he "acts" like the best by being cocky on the court and you don't like it ... I dunno. You hate Kobe in large part because of things Kobe has no control over. Its extremely unfair.

Like Simmons... you just can't fathom that with better teammates he could score 40 points and also get 8 assists. So you believe they padded his stats. Incredible! Do they do this for any other players? Or do you think they only do this for Bryant? Are you sure you think you are being objective?




Cot Damn. Haymaker

[indiefan23]

Yet notice that Jordan's assist totals are still considerably less than the other players you posted while playing during his mature, unselfish years as you yourself state. So what does that mean? That Jordan was a relatively poor passer? Or still selfish? OR THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE REDUCES ASSISTS ESPECIALLY WHEN A PLAYER GOES ROGUE AND BREAKS THE OFFENSE WITH ISOS? Or maybe you believe that Jordan's teammates were less efficient than Wade's Arenas' and Lebron's? You tell me. It looks like even your stats prove that the triangle offense was not assist friendly.

All offenses don't produce assists when a player does not play within the offense, uses lots of ISOs and goes rogue. That's 'precisely' the kind of selfish play my stats indicate. And for the record, I think Jordan was a pretty selfish player who got away with it by being leaps and bounds better then everyone he played with and against. Just not Kobe selfish.


As for the negligible drop off in Jordan's assist numbers as he scores more and more points in the triangle... further shades of grey that you seem to think don't factor into the stats. Teammate efficiency for instance. Steve Kerr and Paxson and Pippen and Kukoc were all better catch and shoot players than any of the guys Kobe played with AS THE NUMBER ONE OPTION IN THE TRIANGLE until now. Competent teammates and a veteran championship level team played a big part in whether Jordan scored tons of points while still playing within the offense vs. Kobe having to break the offense to keep the Lakers in the game and on whether or not teammates were converting chances. How you can dismiss this is unbelievable to me.

Jordan had plenty of scrubs on his team. So did Bron, Wade and Arenas. Kobe has never been on a team in his life without one other top tier player and at least a few solid role players. That's an excuse.


The triangle affects your ability to get dimes overall period. It is why very few players have high assist numbers in the triangle relative to other offenses. In addition. Breaking the triangle means that you are playing iso offense and you are even less likely to get assists. Kobe's scoring binges coincide with him breaking the offense to score and keep his team competitive. Jordan's, in comparison, did not have to do this as often because his team was better.

The triangle does not reduce assists compared to the triangle, and plenty of triangle teams have had great play makers. You're only looking at two teams with two selfish scoring guards and saying thats the triangle. Its not. And why would you want to break it to get your team back into it. One of the triangle's most effective traits is to free the guards from the defense and create easy mis matches for them. PJ used it with Tex to help Michael deal with the Jordan Rules.


BS. Compare Jordan's triangle offense Bulls team with the Lakers team before Gasol. Shame on you. Toni Kukoc, Scottie Pippen, Paxson, Kerr, Armstrong, Grant, Even Longley and co. were better players than Kwame Brown.

Kwame had a career year in LA. He carried the Lakers vs the suns in more then one game. Cook, Odom, Vuyachick, Farmar, Radmonavic... all these guys were good. Even Smush was super athletic. If Kobe spent more time developing them instead of being pissed at them they'd have been even better.


... says the biased people. Everyone else believes he is trusting his teammates more and having better assist nights, shooting the ball less, etc.

Right. But you then compare Kobe as #1 on a terrible team with Jordan as # 1 on a great team (perhaps one the greatest ever), with other players in different systems. And then you think the comparisons are fair. If this were a scientific experiment you would get a fail.

No I didn't. Jordan was on plenty of bad bulls teams. You complained when I used those numbers though because you said it was the triangle that made him not pass the ball when he scored. They still killed Kobe so no you're moving to 'oh no, its jordan's team, how dare you.' Heres a clue. You, my friend, are a biased person. Biased people are not only people that don't like Kobe. This team thing is just another excuse. Kobe had great teammates. Just cuz Kwame was middleing does not mean his role players weren't good. They were. Then they ALL got worse. Wonder why?


Better by far than Kwame Brown. And Smush Parker. Kobe has had as bad a team as any of those players for a number of years. AND HE PLAYS IN THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE. Remember? You keep bringing up the same crap.

Yea, Jordan had this kid on his team who was crazy athletic with no skills. His name was Scotti Pippen. Jordan turned him into the best all around player of all time. Another excuse.


Its like this...

Kobe compared to Lebron, Wade, Arenas. FAIL. Different systems of offense. All of those guys had better assist numbers than Jordan in the triangle. Why?

Kobe compared to Jordan. PARTIAL FAIL. Same offense... but different team competency. Find another argument.

No, just team players vs individual players. Jordan could get away with it because even if he was forcing shots they were still higher percentage ones then his teammates open jumpers. But Jordan still lost because of it and stopped it. Lebron/Wade/et al just get the team game of basketball WAY more then Kobe and that's why Kobe's differential is like, you know, 20 times lower then theirs in a team game.


I addressed your points. You just have a problem with the format. So I changed the format and wrote the exact same things so you have no excuse this time. Address the effects of different team offense, and player competency, or else lose the argument.

Well, its BS basically. Trying to do it all yourself is arrogant and egotistical. It didn't work for Jordan and it didn't work for Kobe last year when he shot his team out of the finals, it didn't work for Kobe when his team didn't have 3 year 50 win with 0 other star franchise players on it. There is just no way the triangle offense prevents you from passing to open shooters on the other side of the floor and take contested distance jumpers instead and Kobe did this all the time. He did it this year. He did it last year. He's done it every year since the lakers lost to the Spurs in the playoffs. You said it yourself, he breaks the offense constantly which is supposed to work through the post anyway, and it hurts his team and his own assist numbers. Kobe is an all or nothing guy. Its play within the team or try to score every single time I get the ball.

Its not the offense that makes players egotistical and selfish, its the players. Lebron/Wade/et al have the option of trying to do it all themselves and play for stats. They learned their lessons in high school apparently, though, and play a team game. If they do well, their teammates do even better. Kobe for his entire career has just been poor at recognizing when to pass out of a double team and when to attack it. He chooses attack way, way too often instead of using the attention he gets to collapse the defense and pass to someone in great position to score before the D can recover.

It has nothing to do with the system. Bron/Wade just try to do it more and get dimes instead of points.

[indiefan23]

Every other player except Jordan and Kobe. Jordan's numbers more or less stay the same. But he and Kobe are dwarfed by the other players. A sign that the offense affects assist totals. Jordan's lack of a drop off and higher assist totals than Kobe can be accounted for with his SIGNIFICANTLY better team. Its like a broken record now...

That's BS. The offense does NOT affect your differential because its compared to your average generation of assists within the exact same offense and the same players and the same teams who got you your average assists in the first place. Kobes team does not get worse when he scores 60 points like you're saying. That makes no sense. And Kobe's team is no better then Lebron's/Wades or Jordan's for most of this comparison. The differences are semantic and the method factors out how good your team is by using your average assists with your team as a frame of reference. Its bloody obvious.


Rubbish. The offense doesn't affect assists because it reduces ball possession. It affects individual assist totals because the offense is predicated on ball movement rather than "I pass you shoot". You know this. Yet you continue to spew this garbage. Again... why is it that the other players have relatively higher assist numbers than BOTH KOBE AND JORDAN? You keep dodging that question.

Because they were both selfish. My stat is unaffected by teams and offenses.


Rubbish again. Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, even Gasol, Brown and Ariza have all seen increases in production playing with Bryant. Did Jordan make his teammates better. Yes. So does Kobe. The difference is Jordan's teammates were significantly better to begin with. Kukoc, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr, Rodman. The comparison is laughable and you know it. And Kobe has only had Gasol two years AND he has been in the finals those two years. Can't argue with those results can you?

Well, can't argue that Kobe needs another franchise player to play off or his teams suck. As for better Gasol was better in Memphis. Odom was a better in Miami. Parker really only played in LA. Ariza was better in Orlando. Even Brown played better in Cleveland. Those guys only just showed up. Meanwhile Vuyachick/Farmar/Walton/Parker/Kwame/more all showed promise for a year, maybe two, and then saw their games fall apart as they quit on Kobe and his BS. Its easy to read.



Ah I see. So you never mentioned a thing about the other players having much more assists than Kobe did you? Here let me quote you on this...



But, that said, the major part of your argument is the assist differential... which, to be honest, isnt even a strong argument since the players that do have increased totals, have much smaller sample sizes and they even drop off as they approach 50 points with the exception of Lebron (and I have my theories on Lebron). They may not drop off after 45 ... but then they do after 50. In addition your emphasis on differentials in the same offense still doesn't take the bias of the offense out of the equation because, often huge totals in the triangle mean the triangle offense is being sabotaged and the players have to be competent enough to read off of the iso'd player. In the case of Jordan's Bulls, I believe they were. In the case of Kobe's Lakers they weren't there yet. They are finally getting better and you are seeing the benefits of that, but during Kobe's higher scoring years they just weren't good enough yet. In stark contrast, Cleveland's offense is predicated on Lebron iso's or drive and kicks so much so that when he scores a lot it isn't because he changed the offense... its because he just took more shots within the same system or scored at a better efficiency or played longer minutes. Very different situations that your stats simply ignore.

Now try to practice what you preach and address some of the deficiencies I pointed out in your stats and how you intend to breach them. Please.

Sample sizes? I did point it out. If other players didn't pass like Kobe and tries to pad their scoring stats they'd have way huger sample sizes. Many more 40 point games. If Lebron wasn't busy dishing out 8.5 assists when he scores 50 points, we'll call it 20 passes to players in position to score since lots of players miss their shots (assuming 50%) and lots make an extra pass to someone else to score, yea, if Lebron was taking 15 extra shots a game, and not busy getting another 8 rebounds, the sample sizes would be massive.

But his wins would be much lower. He wouldn't be taking teams starting Larry Hughes/Eric Snow's corpse/donyell marshall/a past his prime center and boobie gibson as his second best player and to the finals. Wriggle all you want. You're reaching. Its weak and hurts the case for Kobe much more then just admitting "yea, you know, if instead of scoring 60 Kobe scored 50 and passed more to keep th defense on its heels and guessing, I think we'd win more games. He's still a great scorer though" which is totally reasonable. You're some kind of zealot or something so I'm not sure you're capable of recgonizing any flaws to your main man's game.

[indiefan23]

Cot Damn. Haymaker

Says the guy with a kobe pic on every post. ;0

Use your brain.

[Killer_Instinct]

Says the guy with a kobe pic on every post. ;0

Use your brain.


So you still conscious after that? He's an extremly talented ball player who plays for my favorite team. What am I suppose to have a picture of? You? :oldlol:

[Mor'Fiyah]

All offenses don't produce assists when a player does not play within the offense, uses lots of ISOs and goes rogue. That's 'precisely' the kind of selfish play my stats indicate. And for the record, I think Jordan was a pretty selfish player who got away with it by being leaps and bounds better then everyone he played with and against. Just not Kobe selfish.


Very true. Only teams like the Cavs and Wizards (not anymore) used isos and drive and kicks as A PART of their offensive scheme. Lebron doing what he did in the playoffs wasn't breaking the Cavs offense. It was merely loading up more on an integral part of it. In addition, did you even account for points and assists past regulation time? Heh!



Jordan had plenty of scrubs on his team. So did Bron, Wade and Arenas. Kobe has never been on a team in his life without one other top tier player and at least a few solid role players. That's an excuse.


Strawman. I never said Jordan never had any scrubs on his team. I said Jordan had better players on his team. And that is true. Seriously ... just answer that one question. Who had the better team and the better players as the #1 option? Seriously.

Oh. And Odom is not a top tier player. Never has been. Kobe was on a team with Odom, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and Luke Walton as the starters. Who are the solid role-players in that team?



The triangle does not reduce assists compared to the triangle, and plenty of triangle teams have had great play makers. You're only looking at two teams with two selfish scoring guards and saying thats the triangle. Its not. And why would you want to break it to get your team back into it. One of the triangle's most effective traits is to free the guards from the defense and create easy mis matches for them. PJ used it with Tex to help Michael deal with the Jordan Rules.


The triangle does not reduce assists compared to the triangle no. Breaking the triangle results in the reduced assists. Kobe has routinely had to break the triangle to keep the Lakers in the game because they were that bad a team. It wasn't his idea to just go and break the triangle. Phil routinely told him to do it. Do it or they lose. MJ did not have to do that because his team was a 50+ win team without him. Lebron, Wade and Arenas don't have to break their systems of play because they do not play within equal opportunity ball movement offenses... their offenses integrate isos.



Kwame had a career year in LA. He carried the Lakers vs the suns in more then one game. Cook, Odom, Vuyachick, Farmar, Radmonavic... all these guys were good. Even Smush was super athletic. If Kobe spent more time developing them instead of being pissed at them they'd have been even better.


So how did Kwame have a career year in LA if Kobe didn't make him better? You contradict yourself. Every single player you listed has had increases in productivity playing with Kobe. Go check the stats Mr. stat-head. Its true. Smush no longer even plays in the NBA. He tried to play for the Heat with Dwayne Wade. Didn't work. I have no idea what you are thinking. The other players either still play for the Lakers and have had career years playing with Kobe or they have faded into obscurity on some other team a la Brian Cook.




No I didn't. Jordan was on plenty of bad bulls teams. You complained when I used those numbers though because you said it was the triangle that made him not pass the ball when he scored. They still killed Kobe so no you're moving to 'oh no, its jordan's team, how dare you.' Heres a clue. You, my friend, are a biased person. Biased people are not only people that don't like Kobe. This team thing is just another excuse. Kobe had great teammates. Just cuz Kwame was middleing does not mean his role players weren't good. They were. Then they ALL got worse. Wonder why?


LOL. No no no. I said it was unfair to compare players statistically who play in different systems. That is a FACT. Any analyst worth his salt will tell you this. The fact that you attempted to do it and I had to point it out to you is testament to your bias not mine. I am not the one comparing players here or saying Jordan and Lebron and Wade and Arenas are really the selfish ones etc. The burden of proof is on you.



Yea, Jordan had this kid on his team who was crazy athletic with no skills. His name was Scotti Pippen. Jordan turned him into the best all around player of all time. Another excuse.


LOL... So basically Jordan won rings with the best all around player of all time? Are you helping make my own argument?!



No, just team players vs individual players. Jordan could get away with it because even if he was forcing shots they were still higher percentage ones then his teammates open jumpers. But Jordan still lost because of it and stopped it. Lebron/Wade/et al just get the team game of basketball WAY more then Kobe and that's why Kobe's differential is like, you know, 20 times lower then theirs in a team game.


And apparently they get the team game more than Jordan too according to your stats. I call BS. They do not get the team game more than Jordan did. They simply play in an offense that fosters their higher assist totals. Particularly Lebron who uses the entire clock on isos and drives and either scores, goes to the line, or kicks it out to a teammate who has less then 3 seconds to shoot thereby giving him an assist when they make it. Yet you think this makes Lebron a better team player than Jordan or Kobe. Whatever floats your boat.



Well, its BS basically. Trying to do it all yourself is arrogant and egotistical. It didn't work for Jordan and it didn't work for Kobe last year when he shot his team out of the finals, it didn't work for Kobe when his team didn't have 3 year 50 win with 0 other star franchise players on it. There is just no way the triangle offense prevents you from passing to open shooters on the other side of the floor and take contested distance jumpers instead and Kobe did this all the time. He did it this year. He did it last year. He's done it every year since the lakers lost to the Spurs in the playoffs. You said it yourself, he breaks the offense constantly which is supposed to work through the post anyway, and it hurts his team and his own assist numbers. Kobe is an all or nothing guy. Its play within the team or try to score every single time I get the ball.

Its not the offense that makes players egotistical and selfish, its the players. Lebron/Wade/et al have the option of trying to do it all themselves and play for stats. They learned their lessons in high school apparently, though, and play a team game. If they do well, their teammates do even better. Kobe for his entire career has just been poor at recognizing when to pass out of a double team and when to attack it. He chooses attack way, way too often instead of using the attention he gets to collapse the defense and pass to someone in great position to score before the D can recover.

It has nothing to do with the system. Bron/Wade just try to do it more and get dimes instead of points.

Yet the offense lead to MJ having less assists than Gilbert Arenas. Is Arenas a better team player than MJ?! Let me see you make a case for that. What about Steve Nash having different assist stats playing for D'Antoni vs. I forget his name?! If it wasn't the offense that predicated the drop off then what did? :confusedshrug:

[LakersLaLaLand]

Indiefan and mor fiyah,

continued great exchange.

Its so good majority of the idiots in the forum can not keep up. The level of cognitive function is too high in this thread for dummies to maintain interest. Less hair pulling here and more bball iq always scares the masses away here at ISH.

Indie, If I may interject...briefly...you said brian Cook, Vujacic, Radmanovic, Farmer and Parker are good. This is straight up bad basketball scouting. They all suck and were all at one point starting and playing significant minutes for the lakers.

On their currrent teams the can barely sniff any playing time. If they were so good. Their current coaches would be playing them. Which they aren't.

This only touches on 1 of the many many points you are debating. And I am only reading this past page.

And the Burden of Proof is on both of you.

And the Triangle offense is NOT assist friendly to point guards specifically. Im pretty sure of the top of my head. No laker point guard has ever avg 5+ assists. Closer to 3 would be my current guess.

And to a further extent the traditional assist in the traingle is much tougher to achieve over the hockey assist. If the league would count Hockey assists. I would go out on the limb and say the Triangle offense of Lakers version leads the league in the pass-pass-score category.

Just some quick thoughts to throw out there.

[Mor'Fiyah]

That's BS. The offense does NOT affect your differential because its compared to your average generation of assists within the exact same offense and the same players and the same teams who got you your average assists in the first place. Kobes team does not get worse when he scores 60 points like you're saying. That makes no sense. And Kobe's team is no better then Lebron's/Wades or Jordan's for most of this comparison. The differences are semantic and the method factors out how good your team is by using your average assists with your team as a frame of reference. Its bloody obvious.


You just don't get it. More often than not, in order for Kobe to score 50+ points he must stop playing the triangle offense. STOP PLAYING IT. No more triangle. The offense is broken. Jordan does not have to do this more often than not. He can get high scoring games while still scoring within the offense (he doesn't have to force it and most likely he even got huge scoring games not because he just decided to shoot more but because he made a larger % of his shots and/or went to the line more). Wade and Lebron and Arenas do not have to break their offense because isos and drive and kicks are integrated into their own team offense. Its how their teams play.




Because they were both selfish. My stat is unaffected by teams and offenses.


Assist stats cannot be unaffected by teams and offenses. Not when the offense is broken with the same game. Not when players play differently under different offenses. You do realise that if a team starts the game playing triangle and start losing, and then switch to running isos for one other player that the offense of that team has changed within the context of that one game right? Please tell me you understand this.



Well, can't argue that Kobe needs another franchise player to play off or his teams suck. As for better Gasol was better in Memphis. Odom was a better in Miami. Parker really only played in LA. Ariza was better in Orlando. Even Brown played better in Cleveland. Those guys only just showed up. Meanwhile Vuyachick/Farmar/Walton/Parker/Kwame/more all showed promise for a year, maybe two, and then saw their games fall apart as they quit on Kobe and his BS. Its easy to read.


Brown played better in Cleveland?! Really. LOL He plays less minutes in LA. Shoots the same ppg... a MUCH better FG%... better from the three...

Lamar Odom's ppg are down from Miami (understandably, and they took an even bigger dip with the gasol coming on board and the development of Bynum), but his shooting %s are MUCH better. He is a far more efficient player in LA with Bryant. Prove otherwise I dare you.

Even Derek Fisher has been more efficient in LA than he was in Utah and Golden State. The other guys pretty have always played with LA no?

But Gasol is the one HUGE mistake you have made. Gasol played better in Memphis you say? How so? Gasol's only dip in production is a slight dip in ppg. But that is more than made up for by his better FG%. Gasol is a more efficient player while playing with Kobe because Kobe gives him better looks off the drive and makes them play him with single coverage more. FAR more. Check your stats before you make statements. Please. Oh... and Please address these statements you made here ... the only thing I can think of that would make you type these things is plain old bias.



Sample sizes? I did point it out. If other players didn't pass like Kobe and tries to pad their scoring stats they'd have way huger sample sizes. Many more 40 point games. If Lebron wasn't busy dishing out 8.5 assists when he scores 50 points, we'll call it 20 passes to players in position to score since lots of players miss their shots (assuming 50%) and lots make an extra pass to someone else to score, yea, if Lebron was taking 15 extra shots a game, and not busy getting another 8 rebounds, the sample sizes would be massive.

But his wins would be much lower. He wouldn't be taking teams starting Larry Hughes/Eric Snow's corpse/donyell marshall/a past his prime center and boobie gibson as his second best player and to the finals. Wriggle all you want. You're reaching. Its weak and hurts the case for Kobe much more then just admitting "yea, you know, if instead of scoring 60 Kobe scored 50 and passed more to keep th defense on its heels and guessing, I think we'd win more games. He's still a great scorer though" which is totally reasonable. You're some kind of zealot or something so I'm not sure you're capable of recgonizing any flaws to your main man's game.

So you are saying that if Kobe scored less in those games and assisted more that the Lakers would have won those games? LOL... so if we were to look up Kobe's win % while scoring more than 50 points it would be significantly worse than Lebron and company? You sure about that?

Its neither mine, nor Kobe's fault the sample sizes are small. But you cannot put so much weight behind your stats when they are crippled by unbalanced sample sizes. Thats stupid. No statisitician would compare a 10,000 person survey with the numbers of a 200 person survey. That would be retarded (not saying you are retarded in any way, just pointing out the flaw in your argument).

But I will admit, I was wriggling with that one. Well not wriggling, as I really have no need to, you CANNOT prove your point with the stats. I was just pointing out a technical flaw. I have faith that if the sample sizes were bigger the results would be similar provided team personnel and offensive system didnt just change on them.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Indiefan and mor fiyah,

continued great exchange.

Its so good majority of the idiots in the forum can not keep up. The level of cognitive function is too high in this thread for dummies to maintain interest. Less hair pulling here and more bball iq always scares the masses away here at ISH.

Indie, If I may interject...briefly...you said brian Cook, Vujacic, Radmanovic, Farmer and Parker are good. This is straight up bad basketball scouting. They all suck and were all at one point starting and playing significant minutes for the lakers.

On their currrent teams the can barely sniff any playing time. If they were so good. Their current coaches would be playing them. Which they aren't.

This only touches on 1 of the many many points you are debating. And I am only reading this past page.

And the Burden of Proof is on both of you.

And the Triangle offense is NOT assist friendly to point guards specifically. Im pretty sure of the top of my head. No laker point guard has ever avg 5+ assists. Closer to 3 would be my current guess.

And to a further extent the traditional assist in the traingle is much tougher to achieve over the hockey assist. If the league would count Hockey assists. I would go out on the limb and say the Triangle offense of Lakers version leads the league in the pass-pass-score category.

Just some quick thoughts to throw out there.

Thanks! I am actually enjoying the exchange as well. Partially because I think others will read it and gain a slightly different perspective on stats and maybe even Kobe.

I am actually more against the stats than anything else. I just don't think they can be used to prove anything about Kobe (at least not what Indie is trying to prove). Kobe may very well be a more selfish player than Lebron or Wade. Jordan too. Doesn't make them worse basketball players. It also doesn't mean that they would be better if they were less selfish and their teams would have benefited thusly.

[indiefan23]

Whether you think there are one or two or even three more offensive displays better than it is neither here nor there. No matter how you spin it, Kobe's 81 points will rank as ONE OF the greatest individual performances in history. We can all find dault with Wilt's 100 (and people have). But its still a highly regarded performance. If you want to argue that its possible to overhype 100 points in a game or 81 points in a game thats another story all together.

More then possible. Sure its one of the greatest individual performances. And I'll rank it with Wilts. Playing to intentionally break scoring records is disingenuous and is not comparable to getting those points because your team needs you to. Both Wilt and Kobe did it. Wilt did it vs 6.5 foot front line players. They both did it vs the worst team in the league. I think both games go down as one of the most selfish individual displays we've ever seen too.


Immediately after Kobe scored the 62 on Dallas he got roasted in the media for checking out of the game and not taking advantage of his hot streak. So then comes the Raptors game not long after and a similar thing happens. Only this time Kobe HAS to score at a high rate because they are losing to the game. Does he do the exact same thing he did in the game before that he got killed for?! How does this guy win in your eyes?! Why not offer up an alternative for what Kobe should have done instead? Seriously. What path could he have taken that would not have lead to criticism?

I don't think he was roasted for scoring 62 points in 3 quarters. It was instantly credited as incredible. I'd say the most roasting he got was people saying "wow, what if he played the 4'th? Just crazy!" In my eyes Kobe wins in this game. 62 >>>>>> 81 in that respect. I can't control media morons, the NBA media are especially moronic, but I can control me. Kobe earned some of my respect in Dallas and lost it in TO.


It was madly hyped up to be one of the greatest offensive displays ever. Some people thought it was the best. Some thought it was one of the best. Some people valued the aesthetics of the way he scored etc. I see nothing over hyped about it. People rarely even mention it anymore.

Thats a load of crap. If you do a search, right now, on google, I bet its been mentioned 1000 times in the last few hours. I bet 25-50% of the ISH threads over the last week mention 81 points at some point.


So essentially you hate the subset of Kobe fans that fail to criticise him? So do many of us... including other Kobe fans. But that doesn't mean we then try to point out every single flaws and then make some up that aren't even there. In fact, the media does a very commendable job of pointing out anything Kobe does wrong. If you are trying to say there are some fans that do that then ok. If you think Kobe has been free of criticism and allowed to get away with stuff I completely disagree. I think Kobe gets more than his fair share of flak and there is alot of it that is unfair.

Among his fan base, Kobe can commit rape, buy his freedom because the DNA/forensic evidence against him is reportedly rock solid, and they'll show up in droves supporting him saying its BS without an ounce of evidence because Kobe paid to get it sealed. Yes, he can get away with anything. Among that group of people and you're one of them.


Again, here is where you interject your bias. First off Kobe is not the one who has tried to make himself into something he is not. He isn't writing the articles or posting on forums. He has always said he WANTS to be the best and has never claimed to be the best or better than Jordan or anyone before. Anything else you might think of him is your projected bias. Maybe he "acts" like the best by being cocky on the court and you don't like it ... I dunno. You hate Kobe in large part because of things Kobe has no control over. Its extremely unfair.

When he was 19 Kobe told t-mac, and its reported many others, that he was already better then Jordan and he was going to crush him. Why would t-mac and his other friends lie?


Like Simmons... you just can't fathom that with better teammates he could score 40 points and also get 8 assists. So you believe they padded his stats. Incredible! Do they do this for any other players? Or do you think they only do this for Bryant? Are you sure you think you are being objective?

I don't believe it. I watched the game and it didn't seem that way to me too. I'm not sure and neither is Simmons. Berry, lakers die hard, agreed. They do it for lots of players. The theory that homer stat guys give more to their dudes has been around since Magic. Chris Paul is another guy who seems to get this treatment. I mean, you're totally riding Kobe's jock man. Simmons says that, only half-seriously, and you're all "he can't fathom that he could score 40 and get 8 dimes". No one has said its unfathomable at all. Its happened 9 times in his last 69 40 point games, so its not normal and is very above average for Kobe. More then double his average.

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. A guy more or less cracks a joke during a little banter with his friend who's a fan of his rival team, and you embellish it as if Kobe's fighting nazi propagandists out to destroy him. Which is just pure and simple homerism. I'm not really sure why I'm still talking to you when you're obviously not in control of your Kobe love. It just taints everything you say.

[indiefan23]

Indiefan and mor fiyah,

continued great exchange.

Its so good majority of the idiots in the forum can not keep up. The level of cognitive function is too high in this thread for dummies to maintain interest. Less hair pulling here and more bball iq always scares the masses away here at ISH.

I'm pretty disapointed so few people have actually not responded to those stats I made. I think they're a pretty solid perspective on how guys get their points.


Indie, If I may interject...briefly...you said brian Cook, Vujacic, Radmanovic, Farmer and Parker are good. This is straight up bad basketball scouting. They all suck and were all at one point starting and playing significant minutes for the lakers.

As role players they're not horrible. Jordan Farmar is a talented player. I watched him play lots in college where he was absolutely a good player, then he had a solid rookie season followed by making strides last year. Before the finals last year and the season started this year Farmar was being stated as one of the reasons the Lakers would win, and it was being debated that Fischer would lose his starting spot making the team even stronger. Instead all his per 36 numbers dropped and he's gone from shooting over 70% from the line to shooting in the 50's. I think he's quit on Kobe, personally.

Radmonovic shot 44% from 3 before they traded him. 44% is more then acceptable for a shooter role player type.

Ronny Turiaf was good enough to get GSW's mid-level and ended his season on an upswing. The guy is being listed as one of the most under rated players in the league now and has always been under rated.

Brian Cook was good enough to be the key piece in a deal that got them Ariza, who's a great player. He was also good enough as a rookie to get rotation minutes on the HOF filled laker team that went to the finals. Then his game declined each year till they dumped him.

Vujacic is a good player. What more do you want from a role player? in 07-08 he was 45% from the field, 44% from 3, scored 17 ppg per 36 minutes and is positively a very above average defender. He's shown improvement every year till this one, one year after they lost. Maybe if Kobe wasn't calling him She She 'The Machine' to the national media, calling him his little brother (which he hated from Shaq) and punching him on the bench he would have kept improving? You know he shot 92% from the line, right? Vujacic is quite good.

Luc Walton, I don't care what you say, is a great passer. As a role player he does have the ability to come in and change a game without taking a shot. Shooting 44% and 12/5.5/5.5 per 36 minutes are very, very good numbers for a guy coming off your bench for 15-30 minutes a game.

Smush Parker, I don't care what you say, is a great athlete. The guy had ups. Like any prospect he had his downs, but man he could get up. He had lots of potential and shot 44% in LA. No superstar but a very decent role player. By his second year in LA though you could see his game started falling off, with his numbers and confidence slipping.

Kwame Brown's biggest fault was being a draft bust at #1. He's not Shaq but he didn't suck. Not a superstar, but 52% and 59% from shooting for 8 points and 6.5 boards in 27 minutes is NOT bad. He peaked in the playoffs when he had 13 points, 6.5 boards and positively carried the lakers for multiple games in both series with the Suns. 19 points on 57% shooting with one foul and 6 boards 2 blocks is good. Its actually really good and showing signs of your potential.

In 05 he shot over 60% in 11 of his last 20 games, averaged 8 boards and had a string of +10 board games. During the playoffs he was a big reason they took PHX to 7 games. It was shocking: he actually played really well. 56% shooting. 70% if you exclude two bad games. One they won and the other was the last game where LA fell apart. I'm not saying he was Shaq, but he wasn't giving you nothing.

With those players there was Kobe, who's freakishly talented. And Odom, who's the worst match up nightmare in the NBA and one of the best complementary players in the NBA, if not the best. He and Kobe were in their primes. That team won 42 games and I'm sorry, Kobe did not have 'no one' around him. And I didn't even hit the year with Caron Butler, who has always been a very, very good player. Kobe fans like to ignore that year though. And granted, you know, I think Kobe played pretty decently then. He really impressed me with how good he could be without Shaq. Not totally there yet but almost. And thats why I'm not really bringing up Caron.

He had way more then Wade this year who was starting a rookie point guard and who's second best player was a Marion so dis interested they traded him for Jermaine O'Neal's corpse AND worse contract before the playoffs. Their next best player was Michael Beasley who they could only justify giving 24 MPG to. Even Shaun Livingston attempting a come back got 10 MPG on that team. The previous year they won 15 games WITH Shaq and a host of other still decentish players. Wade took them to the playoffs.

Lebron, before he was nearly as good as he is now, took a much worse team then Kobe's to 50 wins and the NBA finals. They started Eric freaking Snow at point. Larry Hughes, way past his prime Z, Drew Gooden (who grew a beard on the back of his head, I mean, consider that) and Varajeo when he was putting the role in role player. Only one player could manage to get over 30 minutes a game, Hughes, they were so bad, and Larry totally stunk it up shooting 40% and 33% from 3. They depended on Donyell Marshall 3's to win big games for god's sake.

The guy up there keeps harping about Jordan's awesome teammates. With Sam Vincent as his second best player, Pippen/Grant/Paxon all playing 15-22 mpg, and Charles Oakley as his third option Jordan won 50 games, were contenders for the title and went out 4-1 to the champion Pistons. Thing is, Jordan didn't blame his teammates or make fun of them in press conferences. He developed them and pushed them to improve every year. They made the east finals and went out 4-2 to the pistons. Then came back better the next year and went out 4-3. Then came back better and went on to win 3 straight titles.

Anyway, I just don't buy the blame Kobe's help card. They weren't all stars but they wern't horrible or potentialess. Jordan took his players of the same caliber and actively made them better, every year, and built their confidence that if they played with Michael Jordan, they were going to win. Kobe body language said one thing. This team sucks and they don't deserve to play with me. Now, that's my opinion, but Kobe punches his teammates on the bench and in game, spends entire games yelling at them and has been recorded on at least one video calling his GM a fool and demanding he trade Andrew Bynum. He started the 07 season demanding a trade.

This is what I heard "I'm Kobe effing Bryant, I've won 3 rings, these child players are not on my level and playing here is a waste of my time." I think Kobe destroyed most of his player's confidence. This year it's Bynum's confidence that seems to have vanished. The help thing, it all just seems like an excuse to me. Kobe didn't seem willing to put in the work it takes to build a team around you. Instead he just jacked shots scoring and trying to win as much as he possibly could. To make an omelet you have to break some eggs, and to build teams you've got to got to lose some games on the backs of your teammates while taking heat for it on your shoulders as the leader. I think Kobe was out to prove it wasn't his fault they were losing. He was the greatest scorer in the league, and tried to prove it with volume shooting, an 8 year assist low (after a career high the year before), and a 9 year rebounding low.

Kobe over valued scoring. When Wade was on a crappy team, he had career highs in not only scoring, but assists, blocks and steals while being .7 back of his career board mark. The only season he blocked less shots was his rookie year. The guy did improve, but only personally, and since he had it easy with Shaq's coat tails to ride, had not learned that one player can not do it all themselves. Had he spent those years trying to make his teammates into the best players they could be instead of trying to cement himself as one of the best scorers of all time, LA wins that title vs their rivals in Boston. They win this year. They probably beat PHX one of those two years, maybe even beat the clippers in a historic subway series. (or is it like, El? series? ;0 ) and make the conference finals.

I dunno, you can call me bias, and I don't like Kobe, but I don't think I'm very bias, and I don't think I'm unfair. I hold all players to the same standards. Its not a rant because I hate Kobe, its why I don't like him and why he's over rated, there's a difference.


On their currrent teams the can barely sniff any playing time. If they were so good. Their current coaches would be playing them. Which they aren't.

This only touches on 1 of the many many points you are debating. And I am only reading this past page.

You should go and read my stats on Kobe's diminished team play when he scores more. I'm pretty proud of it. I think its meaningful.


And the Burden of Proof is on both of you.

And the Triangle offense is NOT assist friendly to point guards specifically. Im pretty sure of the top of my head. No laker point guard has ever avg 5+ assists. Closer to 3 would be my current guess.

To point guards, but that's because both MJ/Kobe handle the ball so much and don't have real point guards because the offense is set up in the post. The triangle offense does not have a point guard in it.

The offensive system does not matter anyway. I made my stat reletive to how the players do in their own system, not players in other systems, and used that to compare contrast. A player could be getting 20 assists and look much, much worse in it.


And to a further extent the traditional assist in the traingle is much tougher to achieve over the hockey assist. If the league would count Hockey assists. I would go out on the limb and say the Triangle offense of Lakers version leads the league in the pass-pass-score category.

Just some quick thoughts to throw out there.

Yea, but really my stat ignores all of those things. Kobe could get .2 assists a game and look better then Iverson scoring 6 assists. Its a measure of how you change your own passing game relative to yourself, not others, when you start to score more points, not of how many dimes you get. Most other players get it going and then use the attention to actually increase their assists. Kobe does not, at all, and for scorers as prolific as he is, looks to be far and away the worst in history. Only looked up these guys, but man, when you're getting killed by a deservedly labeled ball hog like Allen Iverson, (christ, Kobe's differential is 25 times Iverson's for games over 40 points, which is crazy) something is wrong.

MJ was the only guy that was close, Kobe's differential is still 8 time's his, and in such games MJ shot the ball at 60% just indicating flat out better decesion making. I'm not smushing (so to speak) it in Kobe's face that MJ was better, that's not the point really, its just to show that even in the triangle good decisions will keep your teammates getting points nad your FG% high.

Okay, enough.

[Mor'Fiyah]

More then possible. Sure its one of the greatest individual performances. And I'll rank it with Wilts. Playing to intentionally break scoring records is disingenuous and is not comparable to getting those points because your team needs you to. Both Wilt and Kobe did it. Wilt did it vs 6.5 foot front line players. They both did it vs the worst team in the league. I think both games go down as one of the most selfish individual displays we've ever seen too.


Whose record was he intentionally trying to break? And since he was intentionally trying to break someone's incredible scoring record against the worst team why did he think he had a chance with "only" 27 points in the first half? In addition they were down 18 in the third quarter and even with Kobe shooting lights out and outscoring the Raptors by 20 in the third the Lakers are only up by 6 points going into the fourth against the worst team in the league. You can call it selfish all you want. YOUR OPINION ON THAT IS SUBJECTIVE. Its not based on fact or neutral observation. Which is why we began this argument to begin with... and we are about to end it with a few of your statements in this post of yours...

Incidentally, Phil Jackson, who has coached this guy named Jordan, said he had never seen a performance like it in all his years. It impressed him. And he would know whether it was something that started out as necessary to boost a struggling team and then became something too special to stop, or whether it was just ego maniacal stat padding as you deem it.



I don't think he was roasted for scoring 62 points in 3 quarters. It was instantly credited as incredible. I'd say the most roasting he got was people saying "wow, what if he played the 4'th? Just crazy!" In my eyes Kobe wins in this game. 62 >>>>>> 81 in that respect. I can't control media morons, the NBA media are especially moronic, but I can control me. Kobe earned some of my respect in Dallas and lost it in TO.


He was roasted by Bill Simmons and a few others in the media. People on the forums instantly called it ball hogging. He arguably was shooting better in the Dallas game and had a 30 point third quarter alone. Why didn't he just pick that game to break records? He didn't because he was blowing out the team. It wasn't necessary. Had Bryant stayed in to score 80+ points in the Dallas game and came out in the fourth at around 62 points in the Raptors game you would have respected him more?! Amazing!



Thats a load of crap. If you do a search, right now, on google, I bet its been mentioned 1000 times in the last few hours. I bet 25-50% of the ISH threads over the last week mention 81 points at some point.


I can't search for some reason. But if I could I would gladly prove you wrong again. In the last week, I bet you 81 points hasn't been mentioned very much at all.




Among his fan base, Kobe can commit rape, buy his freedom because the DNA/forensic evidence against him is reportedly rock solid, and they'll show up in droves supporting him saying its BS without an ounce of evidence because Kobe paid to get it sealed. Yes, he can get away with anything. Among that group of people and you're one of them.


And now we have it. Indisputable proof that you are indeed biased. And incapable of being objective when it comes to Kobe. So much so you aren't even conscious of it or in an argument about this very bias one would think you would refrain from making criminal insinuations you have no proof of. But you can't help it. Do you have any proof that this DNA evidence that he RAPED (not had sex with) her is rock solid? Without that fact your statements have to be devoid of objectivity.



When he was 19 Kobe told t-mac, and its reported many others, that he was already better then Jordan and he was going to crush him. Why would t-mac and his other friends lie?


More evidence of your bias. Where is your evidence of this? Do you actually know T-Mac or did you get this off a forum and took it as fact because you don't have a biased bone in your body? Is there more evidence of T-Mac saying Kobe is the best than there is evidence that Kobe told T-Mac he was better than Jordan? Tsk Tsk.



I don't believe it. I watched the game and it didn't seem that way to me too. I'm not sure and neither is Simmons. Berry, lakers die hard, agreed. They do it for lots of players. The theory that homer stat guys give more to their dudes has been around since Magic. Chris Paul is another guy who seems to get this treatment. I mean, you're totally riding Kobe's jock man. Simmons says that, only half-seriously, and you're all "he can't fathom that he could score 40 and get 8 dimes". No one has said its unfathomable at all. Its happened 9 times in his last 69 40 point games, so its not normal and is very above average for Kobe. More then double his average.

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. A guy more or less cracks a joke during a little banter with his friend who's a fan of his rival team, and you embellish it as if Kobe's fighting nazi propagandists out to destroy him. Which is just pure and simple homerism. I'm not really sure why I'm still talking to you when you're obviously not in control of your Kobe love. It just taints everything you say.

So he was half-serious? What percentage serious are you? Got any stats on that? It doesn't matter how serious he was. He has a history of bias against the man. So when he says stuff like that in a discussion where should we think he is coming from? Why not doubt ALL stats from all players? Why not doubt some of KGs numbers? Or Lebron's triple doubles (where we actually have evidence that he was given stats incorrectly before)? And the weird part of the whole thing is that Kobe has averaged around 5 assists a game for the last 10 seasons. 8 assists in one game isn't so weird that people should immediately start doubting whether it happened or not. In fact, Kobe had 8 assists in game three in Orlando. Did the homer stat guys move to Orlando too?

And why have you declined from specifically addressing the stuff I called you out on? Practice what you preach brother.

[indiefan23]

Yet the offense lead to MJ having less assists than Gilbert Arenas. Is Arenas a better team player than MJ?! Let me see you make a case for that. What about Steve Nash having different assist stats playing for D'Antoni vs. I forget his name?! If it wasn't the offense that predicated the drop off then what did? :confusedshrug:

This is your entire problem. My stat is not an assists stat. Its not assists per game. MJ could average 1 assist and Arenas could average 50 and Arenas could still easily be much, much worse then MJ in this. The stat derives a number based on comparing a player to himself, not others, in the exact same system with the same players. If a system causes you to get less assists when you score 50 points, its the same system at 40 and 60 points, and the same one you used for your yearly average in that system that I compare those totals to to get the differential. The only variable is the player himself at different scoring outputs so all your triangle/assist arguments are reaches and moot.

[Mor'Fiyah]

This is your entire problem. My stat is not an assists stat. Its not assists per game. MJ could average 1 assist and Arenas could average 50 and Arenas could still easily be much, much worse then MJ in this. The stat derives a number based on comparing a player to himself, not others, in the exact same system with the same players. If a system causes you to get less assists when you score 50 points, its the same system at 40 and 60 points, and the same one you used for your yearly average in that system that I compare those totals to to get the differential. The only variable is the player himself at different scoring outputs so all your triangle/assist arguments are reaches and moot.

Here is the question... Can the offense change during a game? Or is the offense itself a constant? :confusedshrug:

[indiefan23]

Here is the question... Can the offense change during a game? Or is the offense itself a constant? :confusedshrug:

Its not relevant to the stat because its accounted for by the sample size. They break the offense and stay with the offense countless times in that sample, even the >40 games are included. The only variable is still Kobe going for more points and how he goes about it, and dude goes about it by shooting more and passing less.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Its not relevant to the stat because its accounted for by the sample size. They break the offense and stay with the offense countless times in that sample, even the >40 games are included. The only variable is still Kobe going for more points and how he goes about it, and dude goes about it by shooting more and passing less.

Dude. You can't post stats and then just flat out lie about your own stats. You stats do not contain how many times a player scored how many points while breaking the offense. It doesn't. To assume that its accounted for in the stats is simply not true. There are games where Kobe or Jordan break the offense to score points and there are games where they score big within the flow of the offense. From observation (I am a big fan of both players) its obvious Jordan broke the triangle offense less than Kobe did because he didn't have to do it as much. His team was better. He didn't have to go one of five to beat the Raptors or Mavs. But which games they did it in cannot be gleaned from the numbers. If they can... show me.

[indiefan23]

Quote:
Among his fan base, Kobe can commit rape, buy his freedom because the DNA/forensic evidence against him is reportedly rock solid, and they'll show up in droves supporting him saying its BS without an ounce of evidence because Kobe paid to get it sealed. Yes, he can get away with anything. Among that group of people and you're one of them.

And now we have it. Indisputable proof that you are indeed biased. And incapable of being objective when it comes to Kobe. So much so you aren't even conscious of it or in an argument about this very bias one would think you would refrain from making criminal insinuations you have no proof of. But you can't help it. Do you have any proof that this DNA evidence that he RAPED (not had sex with) her is rock solid? Without that fact your statements have to be devoid of objectivity.

I just want to address this too. You don't have indisputable proof of anything but that I have an opinion. It was reported that the evidence against Kobe was very strong. They went to court and upon his legal team being given access to the evidence, they decided to settle out of court to stop her from taking it further and the prosecution's further evidence from being revealed. It cost millions of dollars. Keep in mind, they had sex minutes after meeting, her blood was found on Kobe's clothes, her ******l exam was reported positive for signs of forced entry/rape and they matched bruises on her neck and face to Kobe's hands and fist. The blood in 3 separate places on Kobe's clothing matched the blood that was found in her underwear, which was matched to have come from ******l lacerations due to rape which seems to corroborate that Kobe bent her over a chair, pulled down her underwear and raped her. She pulled them back up and the same blood was on them and Kobe. That was their preliminary evidence meaning there was more to come. The best defense Kobe's obviously high powered attorneys could come up with was that because she had had sex with other people recently, maybe one of them had raped her.

When I saw Kobe say he didn't do it, I thought he was lying. I hadn't heard the evidence yet. I could be wrong but it does not really matter, because I do not really care if he raped her or not, to be honest. The only people who know for sure are Kobe and the chick so whats the point of picking a side? My point is that Kobe's fan base turned out in droves ridiculing this woman. She got death threats. There were people screaming at the outrage.

Here's a not so guarded secret. Kobe is not a well liked person. He's a bit of a dick. When he got married no one from his family attended the wedding. Kobe's father is Joe Bryant, and Joe does not like Kobe either. Kobe's mother does not like Kobe. Now, Joe's name is Jellybean, and a guy named Jellybean has to be cool, therefore Joe is right, and Kobe is wrong. Thus, Kobe is a dick, QED!

That's on a personal level, so keep it in mind when you're defending the guy on a personal basis that his own parents don't like him and he really has very few friends. He's got a wife who he married when she was in high school and seems to be pretty crazy herself. Point is, no one really gets what makes the guy tick, and while I think he raped the chick, I'm not out there with placards picketing the guy and yelling "******!!!" through a megaphone either. Defending a guy personally because you like his basketball playing is nothing short of stupid, illogical fanboying when it gets to the level that you think its a fact he did or didn't do it is just beyond not thinking. To accuse anyone who thinks its likely he did it when the evidence was pretty strong of bias is pretty much the same thing.

[indiefan23]

Dude. You can't post stats and then just flat out lie about your own stats.

Menh, if you're just going to accuse me of lying I've won anyway.


You stats do not contain how many times a player scored how many points while breaking the offense. It doesn't. To assume that its accounted for in the stats is simply not true. There are games where Kobe or Jordan break the offense to score points and there are games where they score big within the flow of the offense.

That's precisely why the sample eliminates the bias. The same way a scoring average collects the highs and lows of a season to give an accurate number of general scoring. 30ppg means lots of games at 40 and lots of games at 20. Its accurate to say in general terms they score about 30 points a game the same way my stat is accurate in general terms to say Kobe scored more by passing less when he got hot while other players scored more by being more efficient.

You can see the same thing in his per game stats. His points went from 27 to 35 and his dimes went from 6.0 to 4.5. Course if I said that you were just going to say "no way, his team just sucked and couldn't hit their shots", which was predictable, so I made this stat to show that when Kobe does score more his dimes drop considerably. That is, his dimes vary inversely to his scoring. Its the definition of a selfish play who plays to pad his own scoring stats and to pad his career big games. The guy was trying to compete with Jordan and Jordan was known for scoring. Unfortunately for Kobe it kind of backfired. I think he hurt his rep even more then winning on Shaq's coat tails did honestly.

Had Kobe won 6 or 7 titles keeping Shaq around and waited a little longer to take control of the team people would absolutely not hold it against him the same way no one holds it against TD that he started behind Robinson. It was not a long wait at all either... Wade owned the Heat the year after Shaq left the Lakers. Its interesting how those dynamics work out.


From observation (I am a big fan of both players) its obvious Jordan broke the triangle offense less than Kobe did because he didn't have to do it as much. His team was better. He didn't have to go one of five to beat the Raptors or Mavs. But which games they did it in cannot be gleaned from the numbers. If they can... show me.

Breaking the offense will make your team play worse, not better. His teams were not better. He made them better. Nor are all the other guys I listed. Irrelevant anyway because breaking the offense is normalized by my sample as stated.

[Mor'Fiyah]

I just want to address this too. You don't have indisputable proof of anything but that I have an opinion. It was reported that the evidence against Kobe was very strong. They went to court and upon his legal team being given access to the evidence, they decided to settle out of court to stop her from taking it further and the prosecution's further evidence from being revealed. It cost millions of dollars. Keep in mind, they had sex minutes after meeting, her blood was found on Kobe's clothes, her ******l exam was reported positive for signs of forced entry/rape and they matched bruises on her neck and face to Kobe's hands and fist. The blood in 3 separate places on Kobe's clothing matched the blood that was found in her underwear, which was matched to have come from ******l lacerations due to rape which seems to corroborate that Kobe bent her over a chair, pulled down her underwear and raped her. She pulled them back up and the same blood was on them and Kobe. That was their preliminary evidence meaning there was more to come. The best defense Kobe's obviously high powered attorneys could come up with was that because she had had sex with other people recently, maybe one of them had raped her.

When I saw Kobe say he didn't do it, I thought he was lying. I hadn't heard the evidence yet. I could be wrong but it does not really matter, because I do not really care if he raped her or not, to be honest. The only people who know for sure are Kobe and the chick so whats the point of picking a side? My point is that Kobe's fan base turned out in droves ridiculing this woman. She got death threats. There were people screaming at the outrage.

Here's a not so guarded secret. Kobe is not a well liked person. He's a bit of a dick. When he got married no one from his family attended the wedding. Kobe's father is Joe Bryant, and Joe does not like Kobe either. Kobe's mother does not like Kobe. Now, Joe's name is Jellybean, and a guy named Jellybean has to be cool, therefore Joe is right, and Kobe is wrong. Thus, Kobe is a dick, QED!

That's on a personal level, so keep it in mind when you're defending the guy on a personal basis that his own parents don't like him and he really has very few friends. He's got a wife who he married when she was in high school and seems to be pretty crazy herself. Point is, no one really gets what makes the guy tick, and while I think he raped the chick, I'm not out there with placards picketing the guy and yelling "******!!!" through a megaphone either. Defending a guy personally because you like his basketball playing is nothing short of stupid, illogical fanboying when it gets to the level that you think its a fact he did or didn't do it is just beyond not thinking. To accuse anyone who thinks its likely he did it when the evidence was pretty strong of bias is pretty much the same thing.

You continue to dig your own grave.

1. You seem to think there was all this blood found on Kobe and on the woman. Not true. Its not blood that you could see with the naked eye. It was tiny traces of blood that can also happen with rough consensual sex.

2. The defences proof that a woman who was violently raped would then go and have sex with another soon after the rape is very damaging evidence. Women who are raped are physically and emotionally hurt. Especially right after. Sex would be the last things on their mind. No?

3. You have no proof of this rock solid evidence. None. All you have is hearsay. None of it has been released and the case was dismissed. End of story. Anything else you concoct is your subjective bias.

4. Kobe's parents didn't go to Kobe's wedding not because they don't like their own son! It was because they didn't like his wife and disapproved of the marriage. He had a great relationship with his family before that and has since they patched up the disagreement over the marriage. You are just making stuff up. And not nice stuff! You couldn't possibly be showing your bias more.

5. I am not defending Kobe's personality. In fact I don't care about his personality and freely admit that I don't know Kobe and won't judge him on things I really don't know about. I only know I like his game. That is way more objective than you can even remotely claim to be. You rant about evidence you don't know about and a personal relationship with his parents and friends you also don't know about. You are bordering on sick...

[TryToBeUnbias]

5. I am not defending Kobe's personality. In fact I don't care about his personality and freely admit that I don't know Kobe and won't judge him on things I really don't know about. I only know I like his game. That is way more objective than you can even remotely claim to be. You rant about evidence you don't know about and a personal relationship with his parents and friends you also don't know about. You are bordering on sick...

K.O. :applause:

[Mor'Fiyah]

Menh, if you're just going to accuse me of lying I've won anyway.



That's precisely why the sample eliminates the bias. The same way a scoring average collects the highs and lows of a season to give an accurate number of general scoring. 30ppg means lots of games at 40 and lots of games at 20. Its accurate to say in general terms they score about 30 points a game the same way my stat is accurate in general terms to say Kobe scored more by passing less when he got hot while other players scored more by being more efficient.


Holy... you don't even understand your own stats. Wow. You really shouldnt work with tools without reading the manuals son. I don't even know why I should have to explain this to you. Points per game is an average of points. Its an accurate average of points because no matter how you get the points, a point is still a point and this is constant from game to game. How you get the points is not constant. PPG cannot tell you WHY a player started averaging less points, only that he does. The WHY of Kobe getting less assists when he scores more points is our point of contention. You say its because he is selfish and point to your comparisons with other players in other systems and with different teams as your proof. I point out that your stats do not prove that he averages less assists because he is selfish because they neglect to account for Kobe having to sabotage the offense and go one on five for long stretches of time more than these other players have had to break their team offenses. If you cannot see the difference between that and PPG or APG or any other purely numerical stats I really can't help you and this entire conversation has been useless.



You can see the same thing in his per game stats. His points went from 27 to 35 and his dimes went from 6.0 to 4.5. Course if I said that you were just going to say "no way, his team just sucked and couldn't hit their shots", which was predictable, so I made this stat to show that when Kobe does score more his dimes drop considerably. That is, his dimes vary inversely to his scoring. Its the definition of a selfish play who plays to pad his own scoring stats and to pad his career big games. The guy was trying to compete with Jordan and Jordan was known for scoring. Unfortunately for Kobe it kind of backfired. I think he hurt his rep even more then winning on Shaq's coat tails did honestly.


But wait a minute! Aren't assists stats too? Why wouldnt Kobe also try to pad his assist stats? Doesn't he read how fans and the media and basketball purists value assists as well? Doesn't he have a coach that tells him how to play?



Had Kobe won 6 or 7 titles keeping Shaq around and waited a little longer to take control of the team people would absolutely not hold it against him the same way no one holds it against TD that he started behind Robinson. It was not a long wait at all either... Wade owned the Heat the year after Shaq left the Lakers. Its interesting how those dynamics work out.


Kobe played many many many years as the second option to Shaq. Shaq being out of shape in the regular season left Phil no option but to use Kobe as the primary option eventually. And Wade was the primary option for Miami before Shaq, during Shaq, and after Shaq. I have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect you don't either.



Breaking the offense will make your team play worse, not better. His teams were not better. He made them better. Nor are all the other guys I listed. Irrelevant anyway because breaking the offense is normalized by my sample as stated.

Breaking the offense is not normalized by your sample anymore than taking difficult shots or driving left or how many midrange jumpshots a player takes or any other factor that just cannot be measured by simply looking at assist differentials as points increase. Thinking that is so ass-backwards I am beginning to wonder about you. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt... maybe you've been drinking.

[indiefan23]

You continue to dig your own grave.

1. You seem to think there was all this blood found on Kobe and on the woman. Not true. Its not blood that you could see with the naked eye. It was tiny traces of blood that can also happen with rough consensual sex.

2. The defences proof that a woman who was violently raped would then go and have sex with another soon after the rape is very damaging evidence. Women who are raped are physically and emotionally hurt. Especially right after. Sex would be the last things on their mind. No?

3. You have no proof of this rock solid evidence. None. All you have is hearsay. None of it has been released and the case was dismissed. End of story. Anything else you concoct is your subjective bias.

Umm... I said I had no rock solid evidence or proof, no one actually has seen their evidence for that matter and that I didn't care. Kobe obviously had enough to convince him that he should pay millions of dollars to shut this woman up after months of legal battles with the woman claiming he was innocent.

This is how law works. Lawyers make their cases, they play one upmanship games. They get in a room and review the case. If they disagree on the outcome, they actually go to court. If they agree on the outcome, they settle on the outcome there, agree to it, and that's what happens. Its criminal law, its civil law. 90% of cases never get to court. The fact that Kobe could have paid this woman off for a long period of time and then choose to do it as soon as the evidence linking him directly to her underwear and raped box is pretty damning evidence too.

I don't know what happened... its what I think likely happened. The point is that there is not enough evidence to know yet there were scads of Kobe fans calling it a grave injustice. It might have been, but then again Kobe might have raped her and you don't know for the very same reasons you just listed that I don't know, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.


4. Kobe's parents didn't go to Kobe's wedding not because they don't like their own son! It was because they didn't like his wife and disapproved of the marriage. He had a great relationship with his family before that and has since they patched up the disagreement over the marriage. You are just making stuff up. And not nice stuff! You couldn't possibly be showing your bias more.

Heh, patched up so well they don't even spend Christmas together. Get real.


5. I am not defending Kobe's personality. In fact I don't care about his personality and freely admit that I don't know Kobe and won't judge him on things I really don't know about. I only know I like his game. That is way more objective than you can even remotely claim to be. You rant about evidence you don't know about and a personal relationship with his parents and friends you also don't know about. You are bordering on sick...

Dude, I could care less about him personally. You said I was 'bias' because I thought he probably raped the chick so I gave my reasons which are totally legitimate. If you don't care about his personality why are you defending it so aggressively? You even brought it up without me even mentioning it once. You ARE defending Kobe's personality. He plays selfishly and you're spinning it as him only playing that way to help his team win when what would really help his team win is if he drew defenses and passed to Odom for uncontested lay ups.

I said he had a pretty brutal relationship with his family and you said no, it was awesome! But Kobe's out having sex with other women, his entire family hates his wife and they don't spend holiday together. If you did not care and were not bias you'd just say that instead of trying to reduce every single flaw in this guy's make up to something trivial. Dude buys his way out of a rape case the moment he finds out they actually have solid evidence against him and you're like "oh no no no, someone ELSE raped her!"

I don't give a crap if he did or not, but you brought it up, remember. I don't buy that you don't care for one second.

[indiefan23]

Holy... you don't even understand your own stats. Wow. You really shouldnt work with tools without reading the manuals son. I don't even know why I should have to explain this to you. Points per game is an average of points. Its an accurate average of points because no matter how you get the points, a point is still a point and this is constant from game to game. How you get the points is not constant. PPG cannot tell you WHY a player started averaging less points, only that he does. The WHY of Kobe getting less assists when he scores more points is our point of contention. You say its because he is selfish and point to your comparisons with other players in other systems and with different teams as your proof. I point out that your stats do not prove that he averages less assists because he is selfish because they neglect to account for Kobe having to sabotage the offense and go one on five for long stretches of time more than these other players have had to break their team offenses. If you cannot see the difference between that and PPG or APG or any other purely numerical stats I really can't help you and this entire conversation has been useless.

Heh, no, actually, I'm quite good at stats and understand the tools I'm using very well. More on that in a bit.

I completely agree this is what Kobe does. He breaks his team's offense. Which you can get away with and win when you play the raptors or the knicks. But when you play a good team like the celtics it means you lose by 39 points and blow multiple 20 point leads. Here is a tip: breaking your team's offensive system is a terrible and selfish thing to do when you're playing a TEAM game. Kobe does not 'need' to do it. He does it to jack his scoring.


But wait a minute! Aren't assists stats too? Why wouldnt Kobe also try to pad his assist stats? Doesn't he read how fans and the media and basketball purists value assists as well? Doesn't he have a coach that tells him how to play?

Well, Kobe doesn't listen to his coach. That was established when Jackson wrote a book reaming Kobe till his sphincter split in two for it. Kobe spent seasons trying to do it all. Lots of players do it. Just lots don't do it after a decade in the league. I think Kobe felt to compete with MJ he needed to have a bonanza of scoring nights because Jordan is considered the best scorer in history and he felt the weight of that separation between them.

After Shaq was gone, Kobe had been around for 8 years and only had 31 40+ point games. His highest output was 56 and he only had 4 50 point games. The next season he still played team ball for the most part and was thriving without Shaq. He had started to push his scoring though and had 10 40+ point games, a third of his 8 years before that despite missing almost 20 games. In my opinion since Kobe realized he wasn't capable of winning without Shaq or another dominant big man, and since he realized he didn't have a guy like that on his team, he decided to go after the record books. He almost tripled his previous season's 40 point games, increased his shots by 7 on average, and put up almost the same # of 40 point nights that he did in his first 8 seasons. Career year. And unfortunately for Kobe, I think he pushed it too hard. A little too much work for those baskets. A little too much work for that training. Kobe stopped attacking the rim as much and started settling for jumper more with each year seeing his jumper improve but his explosiveness slowly fade.

As I said he doesn't know how to score lots of points and keep his teammates involved. He's been playing well since the end of the Denver series after a game of not driving the paint for quarters at a time. I'll give him credit too, his jumper is now freaking fantastic. He tore people up from the perimeter the other night. But I think the guy missed the point and wasted his prime trying to be something he was not. Hey, its my opinion and I've got pretty valid reasons. I'm not a hater... not like that anyway. If Kobe wins a championship playing the right way I'll be happy the guy finally got it after so many years of not getting it. But personally, I think he's just really lucky a team gave them their franchise player for an expiring contract.


Kobe played many many many years as the second option to Shaq. Shaq being out of shape in the regular season left Phil no option but to use Kobe as the primary option eventually. And Wade was the primary option for Miami before Shaq, during Shaq, and after Shaq. I have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect you don't either.

My stats are not taken from when he played with Shaq.


Breaking the offense is not normalized by your sample anymore than taking difficult shots or driving left or how many midrange jumpshots a player takes or any other factor that just cannot be measured by simply looking at assist differentials as points increase. Thinking that is so ass-backwards I am beginning to wonder about you. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt... maybe you've been drinking.

Yes, it is, because over a large enough sample size (which I have) these things average out. How old are you? Do you even know what normalizing data is? Like, have you gone to university and/or taken statistics/calculus courses? What I'm doing is such a basic and fundamental and standardized method. Here is what normalization is, from wiki:


In another usage in statistics, normalization refers to the division of multiple sets of data by a common variable in order to negate that variable's effect on the data, thus allowing underlying characteristics of the data sets to be compared: this allows data on different scales to be compared, by bringing them to a common scale. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_(statistics))

This is 'exactly' what I did. I dunno, you can just say its wrong and I know nothing, but I actually do know what I'm doing here ya know? You can continue to discuss it or just nay say and sneer at me. I'm not interested in a pissing match with an internet troll.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Umm... I said I had no rock solid evidence or proof, no one actually has seen their evidence for that matter and that I didn't care. Kobe obviously had enough to convince him that he should pay millions of dollars to shut this woman up after months of legal battles with the woman claiming he was innocent.

This is how law works. Lawyers make their cases, they play one upmanship games. They get in a room and review the case. If they disagree on the outcome, they actually go to court. If they agree on the outcome, they settle on the outcome there, agree to it, and that's what happens. Its criminal law, its civil law. 90% of cases never get to court. The fact that Kobe could have paid this woman off for a long period of time and then choose to do it as soon as the evidence linking him directly to her underwear and raped box is pretty damning evidence too.

I don't know what happened... its what I think likely happened. The point is that there is not enough evidence to know yet there were scads of Kobe fans calling it a grave injustice. It might have been, but then again Kobe might have raped her and you don't know for the very same reasons you just listed that I don't know, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.



Heh, patched up so well they don't even spend Christmas together. Get real.



Dude, I could care less about him personally. You said I was 'bias' because I thought he probably raped the chick so I gave my reasons which are totally legitimate. If you don't care about his personality why are you defending it so aggressively? You even brought it up without me even mentioning it once. You ARE defending Kobe's personality. He plays selfishly and you're spinning it as him only playing that way to help his team win when what would really help his team win is if he drew defenses and passed to Odom for uncontested lay ups.

I said he had a pretty brutal relationship with his family and you said no, it was awesome! But Kobe's out having sex with other women, his entire family hates his wife and they don't spend holiday together. If you did not care and were not bias you'd just say that instead of trying to reduce every single flaw in this guy's make up to something trivial. Dude buys his way out of a rape case the moment he finds out they actually have solid evidence against him and you're like "oh no no no, someone ELSE raped her!"

I don't give a crap if he did or not, but you brought it up, remember. I don't buy that you don't care for one second.

Dude. You are the one posting all this personal stuff. Show me where I brought all of this up and why you had to respond to it. I want you to actually look for it because you will see that you can't help it. In a discussion around stats and what we can learn from the stats you just randomly started talking about Kobe's personality. Its you who have been trying to prove that Kobe is a d!ck this whole time. I am not even denying whether Kobe is a nice person or not... all I am saying is I don't know him to say whether he is or not, neither do I care. It has no place in a discussion about basketball. The fact that you revert to Kobe having some personality disorder without any proof of it whatsoever is testament to your personal bias.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Heh, no, actually, I'm quite good at stats and understand the tools I'm using very well. More on that in a bit.

I completely agree this is what Kobe does. He breaks his team's offense. Which you can get away with and win when you play the raptors or the knicks. But when you play a good team like the celtics it means you lose by 39 points and blow multiple 20 point leads. Here is a tip: breaking your team's offensive system is a terrible and selfish thing to do when you're playing a TEAM game. Kobe does not 'need' to do it. He does it to jack his scoring.



Well, Kobe doesn't listen to his coach. That was established when Jackson wrote a book reaming Kobe till his sphincter split in two for it. Kobe spent seasons trying to do it all. Lots of players do it. Just lots don't do it after a decade in the league. I think Kobe felt to compete with MJ he needed to have a bonanza of scoring nights because Jordan is considered the best scorer in history and he felt the weight of that separation between them.

After Shaq was gone, Kobe had been around for 8 years and only had 31 40+ point games. His highest output was 56 and he only had 4 50 point games. The next season he still played team ball for the most part and was thriving without Shaq. He had started to push his scoring though and had 10 40+ point games, a third of his 8 years before that despite missing almost 20 games. In my opinion since Kobe realized he wasn't capable of winning without Shaq or another dominant big man, and since he realized he didn't have a guy like that on his team, he decided to go after the record books. He almost tripled his previous season's 40 point games, increased his shots by 7 on average, and put up almost the same # of 40 point nights that he did in his first 8 seasons. Career year. And unfortunately for Kobe, I think he pushed it too hard. A little too much work for those baskets. A little too much work for that training. Kobe stopped attacking the rim as much and started settling for jumper more with each year seeing his jumper improve but his explosiveness slowly fade.

As I said he doesn't know how to score lots of points and keep his teammates involved. He's been playing well since the end of the Denver series after a game of not driving the paint for quarters at a time. I'll give him credit too, his jumper is now freaking fantastic. He tore people up from the perimeter the other night. But I think the guy missed the point and wasted his prime trying to be something he was not. Hey, its my opinion and I've got pretty valid reasons. I'm not a hater... not like that anyway. If Kobe wins a championship playing the right way I'll be happy the guy finally got it after so many years of not getting it. But personally, I think he's just really lucky a team gave them their franchise player for an expiring contract.



My stats are not taken from when he played with Shaq.



Yes, it is, because over a large enough sample size (which I have) these things average out. How old are you? Do you even know what normalizing data is? Like, have you gone to university and/or taken statistics/calculus courses? What I'm doing is such a basic and fundamental and standardized method. Here is what normalization is, from wiki:


In another usage in statistics, normalization refers to the division of multiple sets of data by a common variable in order to negate that variable's effect on the data, thus allowing underlying characteristics of the data sets to be compared: this allows data on different scales to be compared, by bringing them to a common scale. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_(statistics))

This is 'exactly' what I did. I dunno, you can just say its wrong and I know nothing, but I actually do know what I'm doing here ya know? You can continue to discuss it or just nay say and sneer at me. I'm not interested in a pissing match with an internet troll.

LOL

To prove I am not a troll (I post here less than you I am sure) I am just going to end the conversation on this note:

I have a BS and MS in Systems and Computer Science. I have done enough math courses to probably have a minor in maths. You have no clue what normalization is or what your stats even mean and that is evident. All you did was take averages in certain conditions and subtract them from the averages in other conditions. You cannot then determine subjective information from the stats and the subjective information we are talking about has no ratio and is dependent on other subjective circumstances that differ for each player, for each game, and for different periods in the game.

[indiefan23]

LOL

To prove I am not a troll (I post here less than you I am sure) I am just going to end the conversation on this note:

I have a BS and MS in Systems and Computer Science. I have done enough math courses to probably have a minor in maths. You have no clue what normalization is or what your stats even mean and that is evident. All you did was take averages in certain conditions and subtract them from the averages in other conditions. You cannot then determine subjective information from the stats and the subjective information we are talking about has no ratio and is dependent on other subjective circumstances that differ for each player, for each game, and for different periods in the game.

Heh, from ICS University? Then why don't you understand one of the most fundamental concepts of statistics? ;0 I've never said its proof, I've said its really, really convincing and that the stuff you cite for reasons I claim my stats are proving.

You want to know whats subjective? That Kobe has to 'break the offense' to win. You know whats wrong, that my stat is altered by the different offensive system your team uses. You've been harping on both and they're both totally silly points.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Heh, from ICS University? Then why don't you understand one of the most fundamental concepts of statistics? ;0 I've never said its proof, I've said its really, really convincing and that the stuff you cite for reasons I claim my stats are proving.

You want to know whats subjective? That Kobe has to 'break the offense' to win. You know whats wrong, that my stat is altered by the different offensive system your team uses. You've been harping on both and they're both totally silly points.

And yet the Lakers tend to get better results when Kobe breaks the offense and scores big...

Bryant has scored 40 or more points in 96 regular season games, third on the all-time career list behind Wilt Chamberlain (271) and Michael Jordan (173). The Lakers posted a 65-31 record in those games, a .677 winning percentage that is better than their overall winning percentage (.656) during Bryant's career. Bryant had 27 of those 40 point games in 2005-06, when he led the NBA in scoring with a 35.4 ppg average that ranks eighth on the single season scoring list; the Lakers went 45-37 overall that year (.549) but they went 18-9 (.667) in his 40 point games. Bryant "only" had four 40 point games in the 2008-09 season and the Lakers went 2-2 in those contests; obviously, that is a small sample size, but Bryant had 27 games this season in which he scored at least 30 points and the Lakers went 21-6 (.778) in those games, which is virtually identical with their overall winning percentage (.793) this season.

Bryant has scored at least 50 points in a game 23 times; he ranks third on that all-time career list as well, again trailing only Chamberlain (118) and Jordan (31). The Lakers went 16-7 in Bryant's 50 point games, which is an even better winning percentage (.696) than they posted in the games in which he scored 40-49 points. Bryant's only 50 point game this season happened when he set a Madison Square Garden record with 61 points in a 126-117 victory.

It looks like when Bryant didn't score big for the Lakers they were no better than a .500 team (these past two seasons might not hold true there because the team is a much better team and Bryant has strangely scored less and broken the offense less... weird huh?). Sorry man... but you can't argue with the results.

[indiefan23]

And yet the Lakers tend to get better results when Kobe breaks the offense and scores big...

Bryant has scored 40 or more points in 96 regular season games, third on the all-time career list behind Wilt Chamberlain (271) and Michael Jordan (173). The Lakers posted a 65-31 record in those games, a .677 winning percentage that is better than their overall winning percentage (.656) during Bryant's career. Bryant had 27 of those 40 point games in 2005-06, when he led the NBA in scoring with a 35.4 ppg average that ranks eighth on the single season scoring list; the Lakers went 45-37 overall that year (.549) but they went 18-9 (.667) in his 40 point games. Bryant "only" had four 40 point games in the 2008-09 season and the Lakers went 2-2 in those contests; obviously, that is a small sample size, but Bryant had 27 games this season in which he scored at least 30 points and the Lakers went 21-6 (.778) in those games, which is virtually identical with their overall winning percentage (.793) this season.

Bryant has scored at least 50 points in a game 23 times; he ranks third on that all-time career list as well, again trailing only Chamberlain (118) and Jordan (31). The Lakers went 16-7 in Bryant's 50 point games, which is an even better winning percentage (.696) than they posted in the games in which he scored 40-49 points. Bryant's only 50 point game this season happened when he set a Madison Square Garden record with 61 points in a 126-117 victory.

It looks like when Bryant didn't score big for the Lakers they were no better than a .500 team (these past two seasons might not hold true there because the team is a much better team and Bryant has strangely scored less and broken the offense less... weird huh?). Sorry man... but you can't argue with the results.

Yea, or theres a much more logical explanation for it all. I call it the 27, 32, 60, 32, 22, 33, 23, 37, 22, 52 club. Those are the win totals of the 10 teams he's scored his most points against. The Dallas game (62) they won because Dallas shot 37% and 13% from 3.

The 52 is houston who he scored 53 on twice in the same season. The first time was at the beginning of the season when the Rockets were missing tracy mcgrady when he was still a huge part of their team then. The other game they lost with Parker shooting 58%, Kwame 63% and Radmonovic 50%. Kobe shot 43% and 33% from 3, on 44 shots, the sixth highest shot total in 25 years by any player, and lost the game.

I'm not arguing the results. I'm arguing the methods and the silly fanboy revisionist history you keep spewing.

Kobe has some really high scoring games. I'm arguing Kobe pads his stats by volume shooting on the scrub teams of the NBA and posts losses to the 33 win Bobcats and the freakign 22 win Grizleys who's second option was Darko Freaking Milicic. Why the hell do the Lakers need Kobe to be special to beat a crappy 20-30 win team who's coming at you with Darko anyway? Why's Kobe putting up 45 shots, the 5'th highest attempts in 25 years to beat a team featuring Adam Morrison 1-15 (6.7%) and Raymond Felton 7/24 (29%).

You can harp about objectivity all you what. All you're really doing is throwing out one poorly constructed excuse, waiting for it's destruction, giving up on it and throwing out another one.

Of course there's subjectivity in my opinion. Subjective things are not wrong things. But my subjectivity is much, much closer to the truth then your objectivity any day. All you've done for the whole thread is try to defend any and every Kobe flaw. Sure, to your Kobe circle jerk group you might tell this story and they might think you're right, but its only becaue they're the same kind of know nothing homer fanatic that never gets respect from their team's real fans anyway. This is you, CS man...

Kobe Fan's Version Of Infinite Loop

while(KobesPrimeEnds) {
homer.whine();
homer.brain.shutoff();
homer.acceptTruths=null;
homer.admitWhenWrong=null;
homer.mouth.lie();
homer.embarrasAndDisgrace("real laker fans");
until(1 == 1);
}

Do you get it?

[phoenix18]

Wait a minute, you guys are still arguing?

[D-Rose]

Wait a minute, you guys are still arguing?
I know right?:oldlol:

[indiefan23]

Wait a minute, you guys are still arguing?

Its not much of an argument... its more like training a stubborn dog to sit. This thread is getting turned into a pretty good blog post for me and this dude is giving me every ridiculous and pointless angle someone might be able to come up with. :)

[Mor'Fiyah]

Yea, or theres a much more logical explanation for it all. I call it the 27, 32, 60, 32, 22, 33, 23, 37, 22, 52 club. Those are the win totals of the 10 teams he's scored his most points against. The Dallas game (62) they won because Dallas shot 37% and 13% from 3.

The 52 is houston who he scored 53 on twice in the same season. The first time was at the beginning of the season when the Rockets were missing tracy mcgrady when he was still a huge part of their team then. The other game they lost with Parker shooting 58%, Kwame 63% and Radmonovic 50%. Kobe shot 43% and 33% from 3, on 44 shots, the sixth highest shot total in 25 years by any player, and lost the game.

I'm not arguing the results. I'm arguing the methods and the silly fanboy revisionist history you keep spewing.

Kobe has some really high scoring games. I'm arguing Kobe pads his stats by volume shooting on the scrub teams of the NBA and posts losses to the 33 win Bobcats and the freakign 22 win Grizleys who's second option was Darko Freaking Milicic. Why the hell do the Lakers need Kobe to be special to beat a crappy 20-30 win team who's coming at you with Darko anyway? Why's Kobe putting up 45 shots, the 5'th highest attempts in 25 years to beat a team featuring Adam Morrison 1-15 (6.7%) and Raymond Felton 7/24 (29%).

You can harp about objectivity all you what. All you're really doing is throwing out one poorly constructed excuse, waiting for it's destruction, giving up on it and throwing out another one.

Of course there's subjectivity in my opinion. Subjective things are not wrong things. But my subjectivity is much, much closer to the truth then your objectivity any day. All you've done for the whole thread is try to defend any and every Kobe flaw. Sure, to your Kobe circle jerk group you might tell this story and they might think you're right, but its only becaue they're the same kind of know nothing homer fanatic that never gets respect from their team's real fans anyway. This is you, CS man...

Kobe Fan's Version Of Infinite Loop

while(KobesPrimeEnds) {
homer.whine();
homer.brain.shutoff();
homer.acceptTruths=null;
homer.admitWhenWrong=null;
homer.mouth.lie();
homer.embarrasAndDisgrace("real laker fans");
until(1 == 1);
}

Do you get it?

I don't get it at all. On one hand you argue that he may get the results, but you disapprove of the methods. Then on the other hand you disparage him for losing to bad teams like the Bobcats. Which is it? If you admit that Kobe's results when scoring big is more than acceptable, but you don't like the way he does it regardless then thats fine. Its your own subjective opinion, and you are more than welcome to it. I happen to care about the results far more than I care about the method. If Kobe happens to be shooting a high percentage and destroying an entire team by himself, then by all means go right ahead as long as he is being more efficient than the other players on the team. Thats my subjective opinion, to which I am welcome.

But these are subjective preferences. Thats not what the argument was about now was it? It was about objectivity. Objectivity is devoid of likes and dislikes, biases, and prejudices. You and Bill Simmons may not like Kobe Bryant's method or his game, but that doesn't make his methods or his game wrong. Nor does it make him any less of a player than a player you may like (unless that player is just better - Jordan). There is more than one way to dominate and win basketball games. And so far Kobe Bryant's methods actually work.

So here's the deal: You keep your subjective preferences and I will keep a player who has been top 3 in the league for 8 seasons and brought incredible success to a franchise I happen to love, and has every chance of bringing even more success to it. We can agree to disagree and move on. Cool?

[Mor'Fiyah]

Its not much of an argument... its more like training a stubborn dog to sit. This thread is getting turned into a pretty good blog post for me and this dude is giving me every ridiculous and pointless angle someone might be able to come up with. :)

I actually enjoyed the discussion and thought it was a good discourse (with the exception of some mathematical theory we have huge differences on). Peace.

[indiefan23]

I don't get it at all.

Awe, u don't get it... there be a witty joke in dem dere code. A nerd joke, but a joke none the less.


On one hand you argue that he may get the results, but you disapprove of the methods. Then on the other hand you disparage him for losing to bad teams like the Bobcats. Which is it? If you admit that Kobe's results when scoring big is more than acceptable, but you don't like the way he does it regardless then thats fine. Its your own subjective opinion, and you are more than welcome to it.

Uh, you're confusing subjectivity and accuracy. Sports are always subjective. Your point is moot. My assessment is totally accurate. 0 need 0 purpose. I argue the wins have nothing to do with his needless shooting when he's playing a 33 win expansion team and that team has given 15/29 shots to guys shooting 6.7%/29% respectively. Why is he jacking up all time attempts in this game when 6 players on his team shot 50% or better. Kobe took more 3's then any player on his team took shots. He's padding his stats, not trying to win, and it cost his team a shameful loss. You're 'subjectivity' is just a red herring.


I happen to care about the results far more than I care about the method. If Kobe happens to be shooting a high percentage and destroying an entire team by himself, then by all means go right ahead as long as he is being more efficient than the other players on the team. Thats my subjective opinion, to which I am welcome.

Its your inaccurate opinion. Subjectivity doesn't mean you can't be wrong and someone else can't be right. His binges hurt his team.


But these are subjective preferences. Thats not what the argument was about now was it? It was about objectivity. Objectivity is devoid of likes and dislikes, biases, and prejudices. You and Bill Simmons may not like Kobe Bryant's method or his game, but that doesn't make his methods or his game wrong. Nor does it make him any less of a player than a player you may like (unless that player is just better - Jordan). There is more than one way to dominate and win basketball games. And so far Kobe Bryant's methods actually work.

These 'methods' don't dominate basketball games. Playing teams that suck means you win. Jacking up record shots to lose to expansion teams when most of your team shoots better then you do is just poor, selfish play. Its trying to get on sportscenter by trying to bully a crap team, the crap team playing crappy, and still beating you.

To come full circle, Bill Simmons is ridiculously more objective then you. He does not like Kobe but gives him credit for being one of the best players in the league and one of the hardest workers. Simmons gives Kobe serious props every time he talks about him and has for years. He even picked the Lakers to beat his own team in the finals last year, AND this year, on the basis that Kobe was the best player in the series. You can't even admit that Kobe was padding his stats when he's putting up all time record attempts against teams that are way, way below his lakers and his highest scoring outputs/attempt outputs are all against injured or scrub teams.

You can't even accept that jacking too many shots is a ****e way to play. Of the 10 highest attempt numbers in the last 25 years the W/L record is 2-8. Granted the 2 wins are Kobe's. Note that the collective wins of those two teams is 47 - 164 and each year were considered the worst team in the league. They did not need him to do that to win. They did not. His team could win that game with him sitting on the bench. Stating the opposite is not not objective at all. Its an intentionally ignorant view of the reality of your home team.

And lets get one thing straight. The opposite of being objective is NOT subjective topics. An opinion on subjective topics and things can be quite objective. Objective means:

not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.

It does not mean you have rock hard evidence and can prove things like 1+1=2. It means your ideas are founded on reasonable assumptions and your arguments follow valid and truthful forms devoid of bias from your personal feelings. The more I try to bring the argument and base it on something more concrete, you come back with these counters that are based on things that are more and more on the abstract. Things like 'breaking the offense' and taking volume shots actually helps LA win games when history proves quite the opposite are true. And then you come back with more things like yea, but its different for Kobe, because his team is so terrible. You're leaning away from facts and basing your arguments on stuff that is totally not verifiable. I'm saying the more Kobe shoots, the less he passes and its on a totally unbalanced scale then the rest of the prolific scorers of his era.

It is a fact and my stat soundly shows that. If you want to argue thats good for the team, thats fine, I think you're wrong there too, but at the end of the day it comes down to this. Other great scorers have found ways to score higher points without reducing their ability to create for their teammates, many have found ways to create more for their teammates, and Kobe has not. He hasn't figured it out. It is a fact.


So here's the deal: You keep your subjective preferences and I will keep a player who has been top 3 in the league for 8 seasons and brought incredible success to a franchise I happen to love, and has every chance of bringing even more success to it. We can agree to disagree and move on. Cool?

I like Pau Gasol too, great player but he hasn't been top 3 in the league. Its too bad he doesn't play with Lebron, Wade or Duncan, because he'd be going for title 2 if he did. I feel sad for LA fans honestly. Its like a tease. Kobe could have been the best player in the league. He's easily got the talent but is too selfish and too focused on his own scoring numbers.

What happens if Kobe led those Kwame teams to 55 wins? Kobe wins back to back MVPs and I begrudgingly accept that he's the best player in the world, and since Jordan, that's what. He was much more talented then Steve Nash from a things he can do with the basketball standpoint yet didn't get it done and played .500 ball instead.

Kobe has '1' triple double since the 05 season. 1, and it happened just this year. He's obviously got the talent to have many since he's recorded plenty, but took a 4 year break from passing the ball. In that same time Lebron has 25, and it clearly these kinds of reasons he's considered the better player, even by the guy who traded a great center in his prime for him. Wade even has 3 but spent 3 seasons injured and/or playing hurt.

I feel bad for Kobe honestly. He tried, really, really hard to be the best player he could be, but ultimately its not being able to involve those guys more that's going to hurt how he's viewed as a player. People will always say he's great, and a truly spectacular scorer, but, there will always be a but. The thing about being an all time great is just that. There are no buts. Jordan. Magic. Bird. Isiah. Kareem. There are 0 buts. I honestly feel bad for him. I root against him, but he's still human and don't don't actually enjoy seeing people fail when they clearly put in the effort.

[indiefan23]

I actually enjoyed the discussion and thought it was a good discourse (with the exception of some mathematical theory we have huge differences on). Peace.

Uh, I enjoyed it. It would be nice if you didn't try to squirm and wriggle out of every good point I made though. Or pretend its wrong because every sports argument is obviously subjective. Especially when I made this thread to give Kobe credit as a human being who deserves fair treatment. Pretty frustrating.

[LakersLaLaLand]

oh no...I am sensing an end.

There are THREE sides to every story.

Side A - IndieFan(thread starter)

Side B - Mor'Fiyah

AND....most importantly the TRUTH.

We can all decide on our own the points we agree and disagree with.

Remember this isn't a debate where the style gains points. As intellectuals we know the good points and bad ones.

Don't criticize the fallacy of argument. But soak in the good info.

once again good exchange.

[indiefan23]

oh no...I am sensing an end.

Almost there, I think. ;0


There are THREE sides to every story.

Side A - IndieFan(thread starter)

Side B - Mor'Fiyah

AND....most importantly the TRUTH.

We can all decide on our own the points we agree and disagree with.

Remember this isn't a debate where the style gains points. As intellectuals we know the good points and bad ones.

One of the best statements I've read on ISH. I hope people, mostly meaning laker fans, realize that while I really don't like Kobe, and that's as a player, most pro athletes are pretty small human beings when it comes down to it cuz they've spent their lives having their butts kissed and developing nothing but their athletic sides, there are a million people worse then Kobe as people in sports, anyway, yea, while I don't like him I really tried to show why and let those reasons drive what I was saying, instead of letting my dislike drive my reasons.

Kobe's ability has gotten better every year he's been in the league and only a handful of players can say that. I discredit how he uses his abilities, not his skills themselves... there is a big difference. Whether you agree with me or not, that's cool, consider Zach Randolph. Not equating him and KB at all, but he's kind of right when he claims he's more skilled then Chris Bosh. There's no way he's better then Bosh though.

I'm a hater if you want to label me that, but I'm an intelligent and reasonable hater. At least I try to be. Menh, enough talking about me. laters ISH.