Charles Barkley: "Comparing Kobe to Jordan is ridiculous"

[bruceblitz]

"Jordan was on a whole 'nother' planet"

"This could be Kobe's first ring as a leader"

"You wont be on any list unless you win a championship with 'your team'"

Keep Jordan's name off your fingertips Kobe apostles. It pisses us purists and savants off.

[bballer]

I <3 Chuck

[SourGrapes]

no sh*t

and that you spend so much time doing the same thing makes me think you're not very good at much

[LA_Showtime]

Let's make a deal you crazy fan who we shouldn't take seriously.

Laker fans won't say Jordan's name, if idiots like yourself won't say Kobe's name. I guarantee Laker fans have better stuff to talk about. I seriously doubt you have anything to talk about.

[Micku]

Well, I haven't heard anyone say that Kobe>Jordan or Kobe=Jordan. At most, people would say that Kobe is the best perimeter player since Jordan and would try to say that the game has changed and the defense is different. Or that there were defensive teams in the 00s that Jordan never faced, but other than that, I doubt anyone would say Kobe>/=Jordan. Kobe said he doesn't even like the comparison.

But a lot of guards have been compared to MJ. T-Mac, Vince Carter, A.I (Jordan w/o dunks), Wade, LeBron, and whatever superstar that I missed. It's kind'a redundant now. It's really annoying to hear commentators after a highlight move of the modern superstar say, "Wow, what a move! It reminds you of a little Jordan, huh?"

The NBA media make constant comparison of Jordan with the current superstars on silly things. There was a time where Wade as sick with the flu in the 2005 ECF finals against Detroit. They compared stats they had after the game, as if Wade was the new Jordan with the flu. If I had a nickel of every time a NBA commentator or analysis mentions the name Jordan as a intention of a comparison with the modern superstars in the past 10 years, I would have as much money as Shaq.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jordan used to be compared to Dr. J or something, right? He disliked and just made a name for himself. They used to call Jordan something really cheesy as nickname. Mr. incredible? Or some stupid superhero name.

On the other side, there are times that I don't blame the comparison. Jordan was a amazing player and was the face of the NBA for a while, and he didn't disappoint. It's similar how the WWF/E fans compare the superstars there to the past, like The Rock, Stone Cold, and Foley. But at least they don't like the NBA does it. Jeez...they should tax the commentators and the analysis every time the name, Michael Jordan, leave their lips. Tax it and give it to the poor or something, because it's annoying. Jordan was a great player, but stop carrying his name around and shadowing the current superstars you have when you know that Jordan's legacy is THAT great and only very few people could go close to it. Let the current superstars make a name for themselves and establish their own legacy, and somewhat independent from the constant comparisons of the greats from the past.

[OneMoreSucka]

"Jordan was on a whole 'nother' planet"

"This could be Kobe's first ring as a leader"

"You wont be on any list unless you win a championship with 'your team'"

Keep Jordan's name off your fingertips Kobe apostles. It pisses us purists and savants off.
I love how you say "us" like you and Barkley are one in the same. What's your nba resume again? :oldlol:

[TMacYaoRockets]

"Jordan was on a whole 'nother' planet"

"This could be Kobe's first ring as a leader"

"You wont be on any list unless you win a championship with 'your team'"

Keep Jordan's name off your fingertips Kobe apostles. It pisses us purists and savants off.
You don't speak for me.

[DetroitPistonFan]

"Jordan was on a whole 'nother' planet"

"This could be Kobe's first ring as a leader"

"You wont be on any list unless you win a championship with 'your team'"

Keep Jordan's name off your fingertips Kobe apostles. It pisses us purists and savants off.
Who's us?

[NuggetsFan]

Every fan who doesn't have any bias realizes it, don't know why it's worth bringing up.


Fan boys are annoying, regardless of who there fan boys of.

[bballer]

I love the T-Mobile commercials.

[GiveItToBurrito]

How is this really thread-worthy? It seems like just an excuse to bash Kobe and make a point that's been made time and time again about how he's not as good as MJ.

[Hotshoot]

Yeah for one thing Jordan never won a ring or even went to finals without another Top 50 player of all time. Also he did not stay true to the game rather going AWOL running off to play baseball.

[cdbleb]

Yeah for one thing Jordan never won a ring or even went to finals without another Top 50 player of all time. Also he did not stay true to the game rather going AWOL running off to play baseball.

I know I shouldnt reply to your post but oh well...Pippen was NOT a top 50 player in 90/91. He wsa a very good SF but in no way shape or form was he a top 50 player at that time. If youre going by guys who ended up in the top 50 then you might want to settle down because if LA starts a dynasty (Wins a few titles) with this current team then I think it would be safe to say Gasol has a shot at cracking top 50.

[Hotshoot]

I know I shouldnt reply to your post but oh well...Pippen was NOT a top 50 player in 90/91. He wsa a very good SF but in no way shape or form was he a top 50 player at that time. If youre going by guys who ended up in the top 50 then you might want to settle down because if LA starts a dynasty (Wins a few titles) with this current team then I think it would be safe to say Gasol has a shot at cracking top 50.
Hmm Pippen was one of the best defenders in league during 90-91 season plus he avg 21 pts, 9 boards,6 Asts and 2.5 steals while shooting 50% easy top 50 material. As for Gasol no way he is good PF he is doubtful to make it to even HoF even if the Lakers win couple titles. Because of how many active PFs there are that are ahead of him.

[Duncan21formvp]

"Jordan was on a whole 'nother' planet"

"This could be Kobe's first ring as a leader"

"You wont be on any list unless you win a championship with 'your team'"

Keep Jordan's name off your fingertips Kobe apostles. It pisses us purists and savants off.

When did he say this?

[Duncan21formvp]

Yeah for one thing Jordan never won a ring or even went to finals without another Top 50 player of all time. Also he did not stay true to the game rather going AWOL running off to play baseball.

He won a title in 1991 with no other allstar. He won 4 titles without a top 50 player all time. Pippen wasn't a top 50 player until after having won 4 titles with MJ.

[cdbleb]

Hmm Pippen was one of the best defenders in league during 90-91 season plus he avg 21 pts, 9 boards,6 Asts and 2.5 steals while shooting 50% easy top 50 material. As for Gasol no way he is good PF he is doubtful to make it to even HoF even if the Lakers win couple titles. Because of how many active PFs there are that are ahead of him.

90/91 Pippen averages...17.8 Pts/ 7.3 Rebs/ 6.2 Asts on 52% FGs...Who taught you how to round numbers? Also, since when has a player been top 50 all time after just their 4th season in the league and only 2nd season as a starter? Sorry, but you are wrong.

[YAWN]

please copy and paste a bunch of stuff!!!!!11111111

[Hotshoot]

90/91 Pippen averages...17.8 Pts/ 7.3 Rebs/ 6.2 Asts on 52% FGs...Who taught you how to round numbers? Also, since when has a player been top 50 all time after just their 4th season in the league and only 2nd season as a starter? Sorry, but you are wrong.
Playoff averages.

[cdbleb]

Playoff averages.

Oh ok, so LeBron was a top 50 player of all time in his 3rd season then huh? He had 31/8/6 on 48% FGs in the playoffs that year. 21 years old and already a top 50 player of all time...:bowdown:

[IInvented]

*waitin for Kobe c.um guzzlers to come out*

[lakers_forever]

Stupid thread.

We all know MJ is the GOAT. Just because some 5 year old Kobe fans (not Lakers fan) say stupid things (like Kobe is better than mj) does not mean you should hate Kobe or keep remembering us how great MJ was.

[97 bulls]

Oh ok, so LeBron was a top 50 player of all time in his 3rd season then huh? He had 31/8/6 on 48% FGs in the playoffs that year. 21 years old and already a top 50 player of all time...:bowdown:
but once again its different eras

[cdbleb]

but once again its different eras

I was being sarcastic, I dont think anyone thought of Pippen as a top 50 player all time in the 90/91 season and LeBron was no top 50 player in his 3rd season was my point.

[catch24]

Jordan arguably GOAT (best sg ever), tell us something we don't know.

[D-Rose]

You know what's funny Bruce? You always say so n so is comparing Kobe to Jordan.

Truth is, you compare Kobe to Jordan more than anyone on the board with these threads :oldlol: :cheers:

[gxL]

comparing barkley to kobe is ridiculous too

[lilgregoden]

please copy and paste a bunch of stuff!!!!!11111111

this

[SourGrapes]

*waitin for Kobe c.um guzzlers to come out*

*waiting for you to post something post-worthy*

[Laker4Lyfe]

*waiting for you to post something post-worthy*

:applause::applause:

[No_Look604]

I'm a huge Kobe fan, but I hate this comparison.

everything Chuck said is true.....

however at the same time, it's like he's justifying his finals' losses to MJ too.

hahaha

I was not a Kobe fan 'til after Shaq left(combination of that = my kings got broken up)...plus he was just hella cocky as a rookie...+ that ELBOW ON BIBBY that was called a foul on Mike. wtf


I just enjoy watching this guy compete = his creativity on offence.


There's one thing all you haters cannot deny....

Kobe's been doing his thing for over 10 years!!!!

I don't see these other stars dominate for that long....this is special.


All you LBJ homers, put a dick in your ear and fcuk what you heard.


KOBE is #1.......although I'm sane enough to admit that he shoots about 5-7 he shouldn't during a game...

not too many people are creating for him, so I can't blame him.



Kobe, Gasol = 3 rings and IT'S A WRAP (still not better than Mj tho)



***KObe please facialize Dwight again////rest your ******* on his chin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Roundball_Rock]

"This could be Kobe's first ring as a leader"

"You wont be on any list unless you win a championship with 'your team'"

This is ironic considering the source. So Barkley thinks he does not belong at the top of the list of great NBA players because he never won a ring? Barkley was on PTI yesterday saying he does not like how not having a championship is held against players like him, Ewing, Mullin, and Miller.


.Hmm Pippen was one of the best defenders in league during 90-91 season plus he avg 21 pts, 9 boards,6 Asts and 2.5 steals while shooting 50% easy top 50 material. As for Gasol no way he is good PF he is doubtful to make it to even HoF even if the Lakers win couple titles. Because of how many active PFs there are that are ahead of him.

Good post. :applause:


He won a title in 1991 with no other allstar.

Pippen was an all-star in 1990 and he improved across the board in 1991. He was clearly all-star caliber in 1991 and definitely at least top 5 at his position. He then proceeded to make the all-star team in 1992, 1993, 1994 (all-star game MVP), 1995, 1996, and 1997. I guess you guys think he was not all-star caliber in 1998 because he did not make the team because he played in only 9 games before the ASG--even though he was the second best player at his position at the time.

Why the need to create Paul Bunyan type myths around the "clear GOAT"? If MJ could win "by himself" where was he before Pippen/Grant became starters and where was he in Washington (where he was still a 23 ppg scorer in his first season and averaged 20 ppg in his second)? MJ has said he prayed for someone like Scottie to come to/emerge in Chicago...


I was being sarcastic, I dont think anyone thought of Pippen as a top 50 player all time in the 90/91 season and LeBron was no top 50 player in his 3rd season was my point.

You guys are parsing over something that is irrelevant. His point was that MJ had a huge talent, someone good enough to make the top 50/HOF, alongside him for his championships. 21/9/6, running the offense and world class defense had nothing to do with the Bulls finally winning a championship, though. :oldlol:


Truth is, you compare Kobe to Jordan more than anyone on the board with these threads

I have noticed that too. Probably half his posts involve comparing MJ and Kobe.

[Knoe Itawl]

ippen was an all-star in 1990 and he improved across the board in 1991. He was clearly all-star caliber in 1991 and definitely at least top 5 at his position. He then proceeded to make the all-star team in 1992, 1993, 1994 (all-star game MVP), 1995, 1996, and 1997. I guess you guys think he was not all-star caliber in 1998 because he did not make the team because he played in only 9 games before the ASG--even though he was the second best player at his position at the time.

He didn't make the team, no matter how much coulda woulda shoulda you want to talk about. But anyway, no one with any sense thinks that you can win an NBA title without a solid team around you. The point is that Jordan won six titles without a dominant low post presence, which is unheard of in NBA history. You can tout Pippen, Grant, Rodman but ultimately those Bulls teams weren't chock full of out of this world talent. They just made the best use of what they had, and they had the GOAT.


Why the need to create Paul Bunyan type myths around the "clear GOAT"? If MJ could win "by himself" where was he before Pippen/Grant became starters and where was he in Washington (where he was still a 23 ppg scorer in his first season and averaged 20 ppg in his second)? MJ has said he prayed for someone like Scottie to come to/emerge in Chicago...

This is stupid. As I mentioned, you need a team around you and as soon as he got one, he wasn't to be denied. As for Washington, that just showed even MORE why he is GOAt. He was two years removed from the league, on a bum knee at FORTY expected to be the franchise player. To try to fault him for that, without taking into account that he still played at a very high level despite the lack of a team around him, is to show a lack of bball understanding as well as a lack of understanding about the Washingon situation. The Wiz were on pace to make the playoffs one of the years, having won something like 11 straight before Rip Hamilton went down. Once Rip was lost, their playoff hopes were over. Had he played, there is no doubt the Wizards would have made it. Further, had Jordan done what he should have, and gone to a contender, given how he played that year as the man (and given that he wouldn't have had to be the man on a contender) there is a strong chance he could have won another ring. Whatever the case, using Washingot as a reason to slight him is foolish.


You guys are parsing over something that is irrelevant. His point was that MJ had a huge talent, someone good enough to make the top 50/HOF, alongside him for his championships. 21/9/6, running the offense and world class defense had nothing to do with the Bulls finally winning a championship, though.

He had talent. So what? Who denies that? But Pippen was no Shaquille O'Neal in his prime that's for damn sure.


I have noticed that too. Probably half his posts involve comparing MJ and Kobe.

I can make a pledge not to even mention the absurd comparison of Jordan to Kobe if ISH agrees to ban all Kobe Fanatic assh*les who do it and I'm sure blitz would agree to that. It's the ignorant Kobe Fanboys who started it all, because anyone who knows anything about Jordan's career (and Kobe's) would have never made the comparison in the FIRST place. Get it? Probably not.

[Legend of Josh]

I would love to have Charles Barkley and Bill Walton commentate this series.

* Kobe fades right below the 3pt line with Lee all over him *

* SWISH *

Walton: "OMG, you can't stop this guy. He's unstoppable; this is pure carnage, chaos and destruction by Kobe Bryant!"

Barkley: "Hey Bill - will you just shut the hell up. Kobe Bryant this, Kobe Bryant that. Keep your hands where we can see 'em, I don't want to sit beside a man fondling himself to Black Mamba"

[cotdt]

The same Charles Barkley who said "Only God can stop Kobe! He's the best player in the world!"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4fmvnI08tQ&feature=related

Though I agree that Kobe's legacy so far does not even compare to Jordan's legacy. I think that's obvious to anyone.

[Roundball_Rock]

The point is that Jordan won six titles without a dominant low post presence, which is unheard of in NBA history.

True.

I agree with you that every player needs a team around him to win. However, there are some in this thread who imply that Jordan won "by himself."

I also agree that MJ coming back at age 99 and STILL averaging 25 ppg before his injury and then 20 ppg is something that is definitely in his favor when assessing his legacy. I think people do not give enough weight to his Washington years--and that weight is positive.

I have not see any serious poster compare Kobe to Jordan, other than some insecure MJ fans like blitz. The people who say Kobe is the GOAT seem to be just gimmick accounts.

[cotdt]

What is it with this "no dominant low post presence" thing? The Bulls dominated the low post with players like Dennis Rodman and Toni Kukoc. I think you guys are thinking that Luc Longley is a pretty average big man, might be true... but Jordan's Bulls as a team dominated the low post with a lot of help from their forwards.

[Rasheed1]

this argument has been around since 2001 and the prognosis is still the same...


NO...

Kobe is not on Jordan's level and kobe fans still get upset when the truth is told here....

kobe has grown alot over the years, but he is no where near what Jordan was...

[DuMa]

What is it with this "no dominant low post presence" thing? The Bulls dominated the low post with players like Dennis Rodman and Toni Kukoc. I think you guys are thinking that Luc Longley is a pretty average big man, might be true... but Jordan's Bulls as a team dominated the low post with a lot of help from their forwards.

you mean the Dennis Rodman who has virtually none to little offensive game? or the 6'11" Kukoc who mostly roamed on the perimeter shooting 3s and jumpers. yeah great post up games they got. actually i take that back, Kukoc had an average post up game but its nowhere near as 'dominant'

this guy is ridiculous.

[cotdt]

you mean the Dennis Rodman who has virtually none to little offensive game? or the 6'11" Kukoc who mostly roamed on the perimeter shooting 3s and jumpers. yeah great post up games they got. actually i take that back, Kukoc had an average post up game but its nowhere near as 'dominant'


they helped a lot in the defense. you're right though, the Bulls didn't have big offensive low post threat. but a LOT of championship teams did not have such players, so what's the argument again?

keep hating

[Knoe Itawl]

I have not see any serious poster compare Kobe to Jordan, other than some insecure MJ fans like blitz. The people who say Kobe is the GOAT seem to be just gimmick accounts

That's what I'm trying to tell you. Jordan fans aren't "insecure" (at least not the vast majority). They are just tired of years and years of Kobe fanatics trying to force the false comparison and that has resulted in many perhaps overdoing it to show that it's not valid. It's the old "what came first, the chicken or the egg". In this case, the Jordan comparisons by the media/ignorant Bryant fans came first. This caused an understandable backlash by Jordan fans/those that know his career. And while many of those (these days at least) may be gimmick accounts, you see allegedly "rational" Kobe fans doing little slick shyt like cosigning nebulous arguments like talking about how different the defense is today with these freakish athletes and zone defense (despite the fact that 40 year old, one knee two years out of the league Jordan played in today's league and still held his own and despite the fact that teams just don't zone that often and despite the fact that the rules were changed to benefit perimeter players, etc.) in an attempt to not come out and say Kobe is equal to or greater than Jordan but imply it. I see that all the time.

[unbreakable]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Cant believe LooseLips started this thread. He compares the two more then anyone!

[Fatal9]

Why the need to create Paul Bunyan type myths around the "clear GOAT"? If MJ could win "by himself" where was he before Pippen/Grant became starters and where was he in Washington (where he was still a 23 ppg scorer in his first season and averaged 20 ppg in his second)? MJ has said he prayed for someone like Scottie to come to/emerge in Chicago...
Yup. I think I posted some clips in another thread where some of the same people who propagate the Paul Bunyan myths were saying Pippen was useless in those games because of his offensive #s. I went on to show them highlights of the game with announcers clearly saying Pippen's defensive dominance (which led to many fast break points for Bulls/Jordan) was the main reason for the Bulls winning those specific games. His ability to dominate the game without putting up great numbers even forced Doug Collins to say, "This is why Michael Jordan refuses to play another game without Scottie Pippen", and yet for some reason he is reduced to a borderline all-star type of role in the media/on the forum :confusedshrug:. MJ may not have had a "dominant" low post presence, but lets not forget that needed probably the greatest #2 option ever to get it done.

Comparing Kobe's career to Jordan's career IS ridiculous but only Kobe haters do it. Put MJ's career side by side to Magic, Bird, Duncan, West etc etc and he puts them to shame too.

[Knoe Itawl]

What is it with this "no dominant low post presence" thing? The Bulls dominated the low post with players like Dennis Rodman and Toni Kukoc. I think you guys are thinking that Luc Longley is a pretty average big man, might be true... but Jordan's Bulls as a team dominated the low post with a lot of help from their forwards.

LOL @ Toni Kukoc "dominating" the low post. Are you smoking something? LOL @ Dennis Rodman dominating the low post. Perhaps defensively, but not offensively like those ring winners below. You're really going to compare them to the likes of:

Moses Malone
Kareem
Parish/McHale
Tim Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Lambier/Mahorn/Salley/Rodman - dominant low post by committee

All of whom make up key members of NBA championship teams for the past 25 years or so. Guess what team had none of them?

[DuMa]

they helped a lot in the defense. you're right though, the Bulls didn't have big offensive low post threat. but a LOT of championship teams did not have such players, so what's the argument again?

keep hating

Jordan was the only real low post threat that the Bulls had. Everyone else on that 2nd run at least, was there to perfectly compliment Jordan and the spacing that the triangle offense depended on. seems like you dont have any kind of argument and your only real argument is calling people 'haters'

great stuff chief.

[Rasheed1]

What is it with this "no dominant low post presence" thing? The Bulls dominated the low post with players like Dennis Rodman and Toni Kukoc. I think you guys are thinking that Luc Longley is a pretty average big man, might be true... but Jordan's Bulls as a team dominated the low post with a lot of help from their forwards.


Rodman was a good defender in the post and great rebounder... he had zero offensive game

Toni Kukoc was a liability on defense.... Guys would flip out begging for the ball when they realized Toni was guarding them...

He was not a defensive player :oldlol: he was a great passer and a pretty good perimeter player

stop it...

[cotdt]

Jordan was the only real low post threat that the Bulls had. Everyone else on that 2nd run at least, was there to perfectly compliment Jordan and the spacing that the triangle offense depended on. seems like you dont have any kind of argument and your only real argument is calling people 'haters'

great stuff chief.

you're right actually. but why would have misinterpret everything i say just to jump on me being a Kobe fan? maybe you're just insecure, so you hate on Kobe and his fans.

I wonder what's the next thing you guys will come up with to put down Kobe. That Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups are both better because they won a ring without a dominant big man?

[Knoe Itawl]

you're right actually. but why would have misinterpret everything i say just to jump on me being a Kobe fan? maybe you're just insecure, so you hate on Kobe and his fans.

I wonder what's the next thing you guys will come up with to put down Kobe. That Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups are both better because they won a ring without a dominant big man?

Look, just mentioning Rodman and Kukoc as some kind of dominant low post presence you've already embarassed yourself. Just quit.

[Roundball_Rock]

His ability to dominate the game even forced Doug Collins to say, "This is why Michael Jordan refuses to play another game without Scottie Pippen

Yes I remember that thread. :oldlol: All of those announcers have a lot of credibility but Collins has additional credibility on the subject because he coached the Bulls. Who are you going to listen to? Doug Collins or Bruceblitz? :roll:

You are right about Pippen being able to dominate games even if he did not score a lot in a given game because of his defense.


I walked up to each one of them and asked the question.

If you could be any other player here who would it be?

It was a question I'd asked 12 years ago to Dream Team III: Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Shaq.

Their answers lent insight into which players they respected, whose game they feared. Back then Scottie Pippen's name came up the most. Five out of the 12 players on that team wanted to be, even if for one game, Jordan's Green Hornet. When asked, "Why Pip?" it was Miller who explained it best: "Because Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game."

What a scrub! 42% of the Dream Team wanted to be him but what do Dream Teamers know?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/090216


MJ may not have had a "dominant" low post presence, but lets not forget that needed probably the greatest #2 option ever to get it done.

Not to mention the GOAT perimeter defender and the best SF in the game who was a MVP caliber player. (In 1996 both MJ and Pippen finished in the top 5 in MVP voting. How often do two players on the same team do that? The other duo that I know did this was Kareem and Magic.)


Jordan fans aren't "insecure" (at least not the vast majority). They are just tired of years and years of Kobe fanatics trying to force the false comparison and that has resulted in many perhaps overdoing it to show that it's not valid.

Penny, Grant Hill, Harold Miner, T Mac, and VC were all compared to Jordan at some point. I don't see MJ fans constantly talking about and criticizing VC. Only Kobe brings the special ire of MJ fans.

Is there a reason for this insecurity? MJ>Kobe and regardless of how many championships Kobe wins that will remain the case. However, this may not be what the public perception would be if Kobe wound up with 6-7 rings. Why? People tend to remember what they saw/heard most recently and this applies to sports. The closer a player is to one's time, especially if you saw that player play, the higher he will tend to be rated. Is it a coincidence that the consensus GOATs in practically every sport played in the last within 15 years? Gretzky in hockey, Tiger in golf, Earnhardt Sr. in NASCAR, Federer in tennis, and Jordan in basketball. Did we just suddenly start breeding superhuman athletes in the past generation or did recent memories of these players leave the faded memories, or the dusty highlight reels of Howe, Nicklaus/Palmer, Petty, and Kareem/Wilt in the dust? I believe this is why so many MJ fans are insecure. They know MJ is better but in the end that may not matter in the eyes of the public because they instinctively know how people think. As I said earlier, it is no coincidence that the GOAT in every sport* happened to have been active within the past 15 years...

*Baseball does not really have a consensus GOAT and the current crop of players is all tainted by steroids anyway so baseball is a special case.
*Football, due to the diversity of positions in that game, also lacks a consensus GOAT. However, if you did a poll on who the GOATs at the three most popular positions are (QB, RB, and WR) I would bet the winners would be Brady, Sanders, and Rice. Guess what? These guys all played within the past 15 years too...

[Killer_Instinct]

"You wont be on any list unless you win a championship with 'your team'"



So I guess this finally excludes Barkley on the great PF debate, right?

[Rasheed1]

Yes I remember that thread. :oldlol: All of those announcers have a lot of credibility but Collins has additional credibility on the subject because he coached the Bulls. Who are you going to listen to? Doug Collins or Bruceblitz? :roll:

You are right about Pippen being able to dominate games even if he did not score a lot in a given game because of his defense.



What a scrub! 42% of the Dream Team wanted to be him but what do Dream Teamers know?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/090216



Not to mention the GOAT perimeter defender and the best SF in the game who was a MVP caliber player. (In 1996 both MJ and Pippen finished in the top 5 in MVP voting. How often do two players on the same team do that? The other duo that I know did this was Kareem and Magic.)




Penny, Grant Hill, Harold Miner, T Mac, and VC were all compared to Jordan at some point. I don't see MJ fans constantly talking about and criticizing VC. Only Kobe brings the special ire of MJ fans.

because only kobe fans keep insisting he is on jordan's level DESPITE all the evidence showing that he isnt...

those other players were compared to Jordan until they proved that hey didnt deserve the comparison... Kobe fans have insisted kobe is there when he isnt... the guy above who tries to use kukoc and rodman in his argument but doesnt know enough about them to do so, he is a perfect example of what frustrates regular fans...

pushing on with a seriously faulty argument no matter how many times it gets exposed as being faulty



Is there a reason for this insecurity?


I wouldnt call insecurity soo much as I would call it annoyance....


people are annoyed that there are fans soo myopic and soo ignorant of the game that they would persist with such an argument...


there is no reason to be 'insecure' about kobe... even you yourself say he will never reach Mj status :confusedshrug:

Im not a jordan fan..... and I understand totally why this whole pr campaign to make kobe the best ever is annoying...

its annoying because it shows a total lack of perspective regarding what Jordan accomplished as opposed to what Kobe has accomplished... people who know both careers, understand how silly the kobe vs. Mj argument is..

[cotdt]

because only kobe fans keep insisting he is on jordan's level DESPITE all the evidence showing that he isnt...


like who? i've been reading this forum for the past couple years and nobody said that kobe has acheived jordan's greatness. you guys are just insecure and knocking down strawmen.

BUT... when Kobe wins his 4th ring, you can bet that the media is going to portray Kobe as the best ever. Then you guys will go nuts! I can't wait!

[Rasheed1]

like who? i've been reading this forum for the past couple years and nobody said that kobe has acheived jordan's greatness. you guys are just insecure and knocking down strawmen.

BUT... when Kobe wins his 4th ring, you can bet that the media is going to portray Kobe as the best ever. Then you guys will go nuts! I can't wait!


I been on this board since 2001 and there is ALWAYS at least one topic trying to compare kobe to Jordan... ALWAYS Preseason, Regular Season, PostSeason, Off Season.... it dont matter... this is always a topic and the answer hasnt changed since kobe entered the league....

NO

[truethat23]

I absolutely agree with Charles Barkley. There is no comparison. This goes for Lebron too!

[Knoe Itawl]

Penny, Grant Hill, Harold Miner, T Mac, and VC were all compared to Jordan at some point. I don't see MJ fans constantly talking about and criticizing VC. Only Kobe brings the special ire of MJ fans.

Sheed already answered it for you. Kobe fans are the only ones who try to keep the comparison going, even though he's never fit the bill. They are the ones that try to come up with all kinds of outlandish theories and crackpot arguments to get him there. No other fans do this. As for "insecurity", I keep telling you it's not insecurity. Jordan's legacy is set in stone to everyone except for a particularly ignorant fanbase. It isn't insecurity, it's annoyance. And as I mentioned, they came first and then the backlash against it became huge.

As for pointing out things about Pippen, I'm honestly not getting your point. It's already been established that a player needs other players around him to win titles. It does not diminish from Jordan's legacy one bit that he needed Pip. He won the MVP, EVERY YEAR, both Finals and regular season. He's got the records. He's got the ridiculous playoff peformances and all the rest of it. So I'm not sure where all this "But but Pippen!" stuff is coming from.

[97 bulls]

you mean the Dennis Rodman who has virtually none to little offensive game? or the 6'11" Kukoc who mostly roamed on the perimeter shooting 3s and jumpers. yeah great post up games they got. actually i take that back, Kukoc had an average post up game but its nowhere near as 'dominant'

this guy is ridiculous.
i respect ypur post duma. i totally agree with you kukoc was a good post player when there was a matchup he could expose

[oh the horror]

You know what's funny Bruce? You always say so n so is comparing Kobe to Jordan.

Truth is, you compare Kobe to Jordan more than anyone on the board with these threads :oldlol: :cheers:


That is the irony right there.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe IS comparable to Jordan...in the sense that you can compare players.
Just like you can compare Lebron to, say, Big O.
Just like you can compare Dwight Howard to, say, Hakeem.

Now, if you are trying to say, by way of comparison, that Kobe is as good as Jordan, then obviously you don't know sh!t....err, umm, you would be mistaken.

But it is NOT ridiculous to compare Kobe to Jordan. Its a reasonable comparison in which Kobe falls well short of Jordan in overall greatness.

There, kids, wasn't that easy.

[BallPhunk]

"Jordan was on a whole 'nother' planet"

"This could be Kobe's first ring as a leader"

"You wont be on any list unless you win a championship with 'your team'"

Keep Jordan's name off your fingertips Kobe apostles. It pisses us purists and savants off.

You've joined an elite list:

The Washington Wizards and BruceBlitz
The only things that ever found a way to hurt Jordan's legacy

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2007/03/michael-jordan-3-240.jpg

Nearly impossible to make me like Jordan just a bit less, but you've both found a way :ohwell:

http://journalperu.com/pics/2007/04/michael_jordan.jpg
(Don't worry, I still love you GOAT)

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

You've joined an elite list:

The Washington Wizards and BruceBlitz
The only things that ever found a way to hurt Jordan's legacy

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2007/03/michael-jordan-3-240.jpg

Nearly impossible to make me like Jordan just a bit less, but you've both found a way :ohwell:

http://journalperu.com/pics/2007/04/michael_jordan.jpg
(Don't worry, I still love you GOAT)

not only a great post, but an outstanding avatar as well.
props.

[Knoe Itawl]

If you think Washington hurt Jordan's legacy then you either don't know about basketball/his Wizards stint or you're a Kobe Fanatic. Simple.


You know what's funny Bruce? You always say so n so is comparing Kobe to Jordan.

Truth is, you compare Kobe to Jordan more than anyone on the board with these

This has been addressed several times.


Kobe IS comparable to Jordan...in the sense that you can compare players.
Just like you can compare Lebron to, say, Big O.
Just like you can compare Dwight Howard to, say, Hakeem.

Now, if you are trying to say, by way of comparison, that Kobe is as good as Jordan, then obviously you don't know sh!t....err, umm, you would be mistaken.

But it is NOT ridiculous to compare Kobe to Jordan. Its a reasonable comparison in which Kobe falls well short of Jordan in overall greatness.

There, kids, wasn't that easy.

When we say "compare" we mean state he's = to or >, not comparing their playing styles (which are of course similar since he patterned his game after him).

[32jazz]

Sheed already answered it for you. Kobe fans are the only ones who try to keep the comparison going, even though he's never fit the bill. They are the ones that try to come up with all kinds of outlandish theories and crackpot arguments to get him there. No other fans do this. As for "insecurity", I keep telling you it's not insecurity. Jordan's legacy is set in stone to everyone except for a particularly ignorant fanbase. It isn't insecurity, it's annoyance. And as I mentioned, they came first and then the backlash against it became huge.


You & those with MJ mancrushes keep telling everyone it's not insecurity ,but your actions say otherwise. If Jordan's legacy is so 'set in stone' why do idiots feel the need to bother with thesis like posts & rants against other players to defend him? If the man's legacy was 'set in stone' why would it even bother you or anyone for that matter?( I have even heard people discredit MJ himself when he even suggests Lebron may end up being the GOAT or recognizing Kobe as the present Greatest(perimeter players).

A small group of people are still trying to discredit MLK ,but I have never ever even bothered to engage them because I am 'secure' about his place in the Civil Rights Movement/American History.


Not only that, washed up Players like MJ/Dream Teamers even get better(some can do no wrong & were perfect players) when they retire & the years go on thanks to this type of mancrush/worship. Just like Babe Ruth ,whom people will never ever let anyone surpass, even if it means dismissing most that follow or threaten his legacy in those people's minds(Hank Aaron's death threats/Bonds/etc........

Just don't see the sense in trying to browbeat another person simply because they think one basketball player is as good/better than another, especially if its 'set in stone' . I really don't even think there is a 'GOAT' & hate the argument as different things are required of different positions/teams/eras.

[haterofhaters]

Charles Barkley has been saying this since 2004. Why is it news all of a sudden?

[Knoe Itawl]

You & those with MJ mancrushes keep telling everyone it's not insecurity ,but your actions say otherwise. If Jordan's legacy is so 'set in stone' why do idiots feel the need to bother with thesis like posts & rants against other players to defend him? If the man's legacy was 'set in stone' why would it even bother you or anyone for that matter?( I have even heard people discredit MJ himself when he even suggests Lebron may end up being the GOAT or recognizing Kobe as the present Greatest(perimeter players).

A small group of people are still trying to discredit MLK ,but I have never ever even bothered to engage them because I am 'secure' about his place in the Civil Rights Movement/American History.


Not only that, washed up Players like MJ/Dream Teamers even get better(some can do no wrong & were perfect players) when they retire & the years go on thanks to this type of mancrush/worship. Just like Babe Ruth ,whom people will never ever let anyone surpass, even if it means dismissing most that follow or threaten his legacy in those people's minds(Hank Aaron's death threats/Bonds/etc........

Just don't see the sense in trying to browbeat another person simply because they think one basketball player is as good/better than another, especially if its 'set in stone' . I really don't even think there is a 'GOAT' & hate the argument as different things are required of different positions/teams/eras.

I explained everything in the post you quoted, you just have reading comprehension issues.

Oh, and as for "threatening his legacy", most reasonable Jordan fans will concede when someone comes along that ACTUALLY DOES THAT. Kobe never has. That's what people like you can't grasp.

As for not thinking there is a GOAT, what does that have to do with whether or not Kobe Bryant is as good as Jordan. That's some tangent nonsense that has nothing to do with this subject. Try to stay on topic.

Oh wait, you're a Jazz fan. I get it now. lol

[unbreakable]

In a 1on1 game up to 15, Jordan wins 15-13. Thats how close it is.

Jordan fanatics think Jordan would win 15-2.
Kobe fanatics think Kobe could win 15-13.

But, true hoopheads like myself know the truth. Jordan, 15.. Kobe 13.

:pimp:

[Revelation]

In a 1on1 game up to 15, Jordan wins 15-13. Thats how close it is.

Jordan fanatics think Jordan would win 15-2.
Kobe fanatics think Kobe could win 15-13.

But, true hoopheads like myself know the truth. Jordan, 15.. Kobe 13.

:pimp:

"Basketball is a team sport in which two teams of five active players each try to score points against one another by placing a ball through a 10 feet (3.048 m) high hoop."

[unbreakable]

"Basketball is a team sport in which two teams of five active players each try to score points against one another by placing a ball through a 10 feet (3.048 m) high hoop."

So what? Nobody compares the Bulls to the Lakers... this is all about Kobe vs Jordan. Wheres your head at, kid?

[BallPhunk]

You've joined an elite list:

The Washington Wizards and BruceBlitz
The only things that ever found a way to hurt Jordan's legacy

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.fanhouse.com/media/2007/03/michael-jordan-3-240.jpg

Nearly impossible to make me like Jordan just a bit less, but you've both found a way :ohwell:

http://journalperu.com/pics/2007/04/michael_jordan.jpg
(Don't worry, I still love you GOAT)


If you think Washington hurt Jordan's legacy then you either don't know about basketball/his Wizards stint or you're a Kobe Fanatic. Simple.

I think this proof that you have a humorless stick so far up your azz when it comes to MJ that you should now be disqualified from commenting on it (or at least being taken seriously). :rolleyes:

[puppychili]

You do get some L.A. homers in here every so often trying to say Kobe > Jordan, and if he wins the title this year it will blow up. But instead of writing a billion posts pointing out what is obvious to real basketball fans I'd rather just ignore this stuff no matter how annoying Kobe groupies are.

No matter what you write you will never convince some people that Jordan is the GOAT. You know why? Because they "feel" that he isn't.

You ever get into an argument with a woman that "feels" something is true? If a woman feels that 2 + 2 = 3, there is NOTHING you can do to convince her otherwise. Showing her in every possible way that 2 + 2 = 4 will do you no good. It will only make the argument worse. Your only choice is to change the subject and move on.

Thats how I feel about these kinds of threads. Typical Laker fans feel that Kobe is better than Jordan. The only way to change their minds is to get a time machine and put Jordan in a Lakers uniform. Since thats impossible, the solution is to ignore them and move on. The solution is not make tons of threads and posts trying to get them to change their minds, but rather just ignore them and move on.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Thats how I feel about these kinds of threads. Typical Laker fans feel that Kobe is better than Jordan. The only way to change their minds is to get a time machine and put Jordan in a Lakers uniform. Since thats impossible, the solution is to ignore them and move on. The solution is not make tons of threads and posts trying to get them to change their minds, but rather just ignore them and move on.

you see, this is patently FALSE.
almost NO ONE on this entire planet thinks Kobe is better than MJ. ALMOST no one. Even here in crazy ISH there are only a couple posters who have legitimately said Kobe > MJ, and those are either a) too stupid for words or b) just goosing the MJ groupies.

it is absurd to say "Typical Laker fans feel that Kobe is better than Jordan." ABSURD!

Go post that sh!t in the Laker forum and see what kind of response you get.

[lilbeastnani]

In a 1on1 game up to 15, Jordan wins 15-13. Thats how close it is.

Jordan fanatics think Jordan would win 15-2.
Kobe fanatics think Kobe could win 15-13.

But, true hoopheads like myself know the truth. Jordan, 15.. Kobe 13.

:pimp:
But how is that even relevant? The NBA isn't a one on one sport, and therefore being the "best" isn't referring to your one on one ability. There are probably some unknown streetball guys that could give a prime Jordan or a prime Kobe a run for their money in a one on one game. But there are just so many other variables when comparing the "greatest" than just, who would win a one on one game in an empty gym.. I'm sure Kobe would win some, and Jordan would win some if they played multiple times, but by no means would that be a be all, end all determinant.

[BallPhunk]

But how is that even relevant? The NBA isn't a one on one sport, and therefore being the "best" isn't referring to your one on one ability. There are probably some unknown streetball guys that could give a prime Jordan or a prime Kobe a run for their money in a one on one game. But there are just so many other variables when comparing the "greatest" than just, who would win a one on one game in an empty gym.. I'm sure Kobe would win some, and Jordan would win some if they played multiple times, but by no means would that be a be all, end all determinant.

jokes

[bdreason]

Comparing LeBron to Jordan is ridiculous.

[Killer_Instinct]

You do get some L.A. homers in here every so often trying to say Kobe > Jordan, and if he wins the title this year it will blow up. But instead of writing a billion posts pointing out what is obvious to real basketball fans I'd rather just ignore this stuff no matter how annoying Kobe groupies are.

No matter what you write you will never convince some people that Jordan is the GOAT. You know why? Because they "feel" that he isn't.

You ever get into an argument with a woman that "feels" something is true? If a woman feels that 2 + 2 = 3, there is NOTHING you can do to convince her otherwise. Showing her in every possible way that 2 + 2 = 4 will do you no good. It will only make the argument worse. Your only choice is to change the subject and move on.

Thats how I feel about these kinds of threads. Typical Laker fans feel that Kobe is better than Jordan. The only way to change their minds is to get a time machine and put Jordan in a Lakers uniform. Since thats impossible, the solution is to ignore them and move on. The solution is not make tons of threads and posts trying to get them to change their minds, but rather just ignore them and move on.


Then you should acknowledge the fact that 9/10 a thread concerning Jordan/Bryant is made, it's from the idiots who say they can't stand Bryant/MJ comparisons. Like this one. Or did you miss that? Better yet, find me 10 topics where a Kobe/Laker fan made a thread saying Kobe>MJ as a player, and I'll find you 20 comparing the two by individuals who live to debunk everything Bryant accomplishes.

Why do you all try to exist in a twilight zone where Bryant/Laker supporters bring up these comparisions. It's the morons who simply feel threatned every time the man has a good game/scored 50. Wake up.

[puppychili]

you see, this is patently FALSE.
almost NO ONE on this entire planet thinks Kobe is better than MJ. ALMOST no one. Even here in crazy ISH there are only a couple posters who have legitimately said Kobe > MJ, and those are either a) too stupid for words or b) just goosing the MJ groupies.

it is absurd to say "Typical Laker fans feel that Kobe is better than Jordan." ABSURD!

Go post that sh!t in the Laker forum and see what kind of response you get.

I live in L.A. As you probably do as well, but I'm just going by my experiences. I'm not saying every Laker fan feels that way just the typical homer ones. Pull over every moron with a Laker flag on his/her car and see what they say about Kobe vs Jordan.

[puppychili]

Then you should acknowledge the fact that 9/10 a thread concerning Jordan/Bryant is made, it's from the idiots who say they can't stand Bryant/MJ comparisons. Like this one. Or did you miss that? Better yet, find me 10 topics where a Kobe/Laker fan made a thread saying Kobe>MJ as a player, and I'll find you 20 comparing the two by individuals who live to debunk everything Bryant accomplishes.

Why do you all try to exist in a twilight zone where Bryant/Laker supporters bring up these comparisions. It's the morons who simply feel threatned every time the man has a good game/scored 50. Wake up.

Kobe Bryant is a damn good player. Just cause he's not Jordan shouldn't take away from what he's done. I think it's just as silly for guys like Bruce to start a billion threads saying Jordan is the GOAT. We know that already. There is no need to bring it up a billion times.

[thejumpa]

Every time I'm in LA I get into an argument with a Laker fan who thinks Kobe is just as good as MJ or MJ isn't as good as many think. Both of which, IMO, are wrong. LA sure does have some strrrrooonnngg Kobe supporters.

That being said, I don't think most Laker fans think Kobe is better than Jordan....gotta be only a select few idiots.

[32jazz]

I explained everything in the post you quoted, you just have reading comprehension issues.

Oh, and as for "threatening his legacy", most reasonable Jordan fans will concede when someone comes along that ACTUALLY DOES THAT. Kobe never has. That's what people like you can't grasp.

As for not thinking there is a GOAT, what does that have to do with whether or not Kobe Bryant is as good as Jordan. That's some tangent nonsense that has nothing to do with this subject. Try to stay on topic.

Oh wait, you're a Jazz fan. I get it now. lol

Kobe owns the Utah Jazz(who I could care less about) also. So what's your point? Why do I get the pimply faced teens or those who were kids when MJ played & won't let go. I think MJ is the best all around SG ever & I get tired of saying it to fools like you.

I understand that you have stated that MJ's legacy is 'set in stone' so why make idiotic rants against those small few who you 'think' are even suggesting one man's as good as another? Doesn't smack of SECURITY at all. I have stated that MJ is like Babe Ruth in that his mancrush followers will never allow anyone to surpass him no matter how good they are(Aaron got death threats because of that type of fanaticism). So why bother browbeating that small few who think otherwise? And if it seems they could POSSIBLY do it (like MJ thinks Lebron can) idiots like you ,who can't let go of the past, go on your warpath instead of enjoying the young kids & picking their every possession apart.

Losers like you remind me of Jazz fans who can't let go of past & constantly berate/hate Wynton Marsalis( and fans) because in their minds he will never be Miles Davis nor even Clifford Brown. Men putting other men on some unattainable pedestal.

Instead of berating Kobe/Lebron(and their fans) you certainly could get more jerkoff time to the MJ poster in the ceiling over your bunk bed I suspect.

[Allstar24]

John Salley: "I think Kobe Bryant is Michael Jordan plus or Michael Jordan improved."

Barkley's opinion is about as worthless as Salley's opinion.

[100grandman]

John Salley: "I think Kobe Bryant is Michael Jordan plus or Michael Jordan improved."

Barkley's opinion is about as worthless as Salley's opinion.


I stopped after John Salley.

[Killer_Instinct]

Kobe Bryant is a damn good player. Just cause he's not Jordan shouldn't take away from what he's done. I think it's just as silly for guys like Bruce to start a billion threads saying Jordan is the GOAT. We know that already. There is no need to bring it up a billion times.


OK. But what got/gets me is that in your quoted post(not only you in particular), you targeted LA/Kobe fans. We are not the ones who create the convo/threads about MJ/Kobe. You have idiots like bruceblitz who act as if Kobe ate their young. That's really where these threads come from. Like you said, we know MJ was better than KB. However when Laker/Kobe fans get accused of starting up the comparision talk, 9.8 times out of 10 it's from left field, and completly off base.

I'm glad you acknowledged the fact that a detractor and not a supporter created this thread. I just felt like you were targeting Laker-Kobe fans and throwing salt there. While sometimes that's warranted, three-fourths of the time it's not the case, and it's sickening to sit here and read how many times the shit is fed to the bull.

As for your latter post, I agree on all counts.

[BlackMamba24]

Charles Barkley: "Comparing Kobe to Jordan is ridiculous"

It is an insult to Kobe "THE GOAT" Bryant to compare him to MJ aka the man who rode Pippen's coattails to 6 rings

Kobe = GOAT

[Bigsmoke]

Pretty much

[Cangri]

It is an insult to Kobe "THE GOAT" Bryant to compare him to MJ aka the man who rode Pippen's coattails to 6 rings

Kobe = GOAT
:roll: :roll: Kobe rode Shaq's coattails for his 3 rings.
And at least MJ was the finals MVP.

[andgar923]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg6kK42aajk

Payton.... "I love Kobe Bryant, but he aint no MJ"
Payton and Cweb..... "Shaq might be Superman, but MJ is black Jesus"
Magic.... "MJ is heads and shoulders above everyone else"
Bowen.... " I say he’s by far the best player that’s ever played the game in my eyes."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u40J0ttZy1U

The list of respected players, ex teammates (of both), players that played against both etc.etc.etc.

AAAAAR outweigh anybody that says Kobe>>>> MJ.

Matter of fact.... NO sane analyst, expert, player or fan says otherwise.

[D-Rose]

[QUOTE=andgar923]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg6kK42aajk

Payton.... "I love Kobe Bryant, but he aint no MJ"
Payton and Cweb..... "Shaq might be Superman, but MJ is black Jesus"
Magic.... "MJ is heads and shoulders above everyone else"
Bowen.... " I say he

[Eldrunko247]

Kobe at his best, at his very best, which is a hand full of games per year is comparable to Jordan. Other than that Jordan did his sht on a consistent, smarter, and more efficient basis day in and day out. Kobe ain't no Jordan. He's the third best player since Jordan. Shaq/Duncan, 3. Kobe.

[puppychili]

OK. But what got/gets me is that in your quoted post(not only you in particular), you targeted LA/Kobe fans. We are not the ones who create the convo/threads about MJ/Kobe. You have idiots like bruceblitz who act as if Kobe ate their young. That's really where these threads come from. Like you said, we know MJ was better than KB. However when Laker/Kobe fans get accused of starting up the comparision talk, 9.8 times out of 10 it's from left field, and completly off base.

I'm glad you acknowledged the fact that a detractor and not a supporter created this thread. I just felt like you were targeting Laker-Kobe fans and throwing salt there. While sometimes that's warranted, three-fourths of the time it's not the case, and it's sickening to sit here and read how many times the shit is fed to the bull.

As for your latter post, I agree on all counts.

I'll give you this. In the past year and a half or so, the amount of Kobe groupies making Kobe > Jordan posts has died down alot. But what I was talking about wasn't strictly about posts or threads. It was about Laker fans on and off this board. Like I said I live in L.A. and between ISH, Laker fans I encounter around town, and sports talk radio there are a signifigant amount of Laker fans who are stupid homers who feel that Kobe > Jordan.

Last night I was watching Game 3 at a bar with some friends who were all Laker fans. There were two guys by us dressed head to toe in Lakers gear arguing with a guy in a Magic jersey that Kobe was the GOAT and better than Jordan. What brought this up, I don't know. But these guys wouldn't stop. "Kobes a better pure shooter, etc." My friend turned to me and says "Those guys are idiots." I told him "Yeah, but they are your people. Thats what people see when they think of Laker fans." He just glared at those guys and drank his beer.

[Allstar24]

[QUOTE=andgar923]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg6kK42aajk

Payton.... "I love Kobe Bryant, but he aint no MJ"
Payton and Cweb..... "Shaq might be Superman, but MJ is black Jesus"
Magic.... "MJ is heads and shoulders above everyone else"
Bowen.... " I say he

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

It is an insult to Kobe "THE GOAT" Bryant to compare him to MJ aka the man who rode Pippen's coattails to 6 rings

Kobe = GOAT

you see here, folks. ^^^^
this poster is about one-in-a-billion.
he is either:
a) a knucklehead
or
b) having some fun at the expense of Knoe, Bruce, Andgar, Loki, etc...who will get themselves all worked-up.

either way, its not worth getting your panties in a bunch.

[andgar923]

I find it amusing that you feel the need to use those comments to justify why MJ > Kobe. As I said, all these opinions are worthless. They're just telling us something that we already know :confusedshrug:

I'm bored.

[Killer_Instinct]

I'll give you this. In the past year and a half or so, the amount of Kobe groupies making Kobe > Jordan posts has died down alot. But what I was talking about wasn't strictly about posts or threads. It was about Laker fans on and off this board. Like I said I live in L.A. and between ISH, Laker fans I encounter around town, and sports talk radio there are a signifigant amount of Laker fans who are stupid homers who feel that Kobe > Jordan.

Last night I was watching Game 3 at a bar with some friends who were all Laker fans. There were two guys by us dressed head to toe in Lakers gear arguing with a guy in a Magic jersey that Kobe was the GOAT and better than Jordan. What brought this up, I don't know. But these guys wouldn't stop. "Kobes a better pure shooter, etc." My friend turned to me and says "Those guys are idiots." I told him "Yeah, but they are your people. Thats what people see when they think of Laker fans." He just glared at those guys and drank his beer.


:oldlol: I'll give you that. People usually get worked up and senile when the Finals roll around. Maybe they woke up and realized how crazy they sounded. That's not your average Laker-Kobe fan. I enjoy watching Kobe more than I ever have or will enjoy watching MJ, but it's no doubt who I believe is better. I'm not going to get into the great debate over MJ and KB. MJ simply just outweighs Kobe as a player, and with this being 2009, I would hope that's well understood. But Bryant isn't miles back from him, either. One thing people should do though is appreciate Kobe playing while he's here. I don't think people will realize how good he is until he's gone, and that'll be a damn shame.

[LA_Showtime]

This thread makes no sense. You compare Kobe to Michael Jordan all the time.

[letsgolakers123]

"Jordan was on a whole 'nother' planet"

"This could be Kobe's first ring as a leader"

"You wont be on any list unless you win a championship with 'your team'"

Keep Jordan's name off your fingertips Kobe apostles. It pisses us purists and savants off.

damn bruce get a life. I bet you have started a whole mess of anti kobe threads. Anyways lakers 2009 champions and kobe mvp. Your salty tears just makes it so much sweeter. What are you a jordan ballhugger or queen lebron fan?:roll:

[cotdt]

But Bryant isn't miles back from him, either. One thing people should do though is appreciate Kobe playing while he's here. I don't think people will realize how good he is until he's gone, and that'll be a damn shame.

+1

[puppychili]

I can't stand Kobe. I think he's a douche and I love to watch him lose.

That being said, he's one of the all time greats and has done some amazing stuff on the basketball court that people should spend more time appreciating than trying to diminish.

[cotdt]

I can't stand Kobe. I think he's a douche and I love to watch him lose.


All I heard was, you love to watch him =)

[OldSchoolBBall]

they helped a lot in the defense. you're right though, the Bulls didn't have big offensive low post threat. but a LOT of championship teams did not have such players

Name these "lot" of championship teams. There have only been 2 or 3 championship teams that did not have an excellent low post offensive force:

1) Barry's Warriors (they won once)

2) Isiah's Pistons (and Laimbeer was a 14 pt/11 reb guy, plus Mahorn/Edwards, the latter of whom was a 14.5 ppg player their second title year)

3) The 2004 Pistons (the Wallaces)

4) Jordan's Bulls (they won 6 times).


It is interesting to note that two of the four teams who have won championships without a great offensive post threat were "ensemble" casts, not typical "superstar/supporting star/role players" type of teams (a la the Bulls/'00's Lakers/'Magic and Bird's teams etc.). The 2004 and '89/'90 Pistons were "sum of many parts" teams, not teams driven and led by one standout star and a supporting star. Additionally, the '04 Pistons had TREMENDOUS shotblocking inside with Ben (3 bpg) and Rasheed (2 bpg). This is a crucial component of championship teams: interior defense. This is another reason why it's generally big men who win titles -- their excellent efficiency, the ability to draw defenders, and their rim defense.

So we can see that only one other superstar-driven team in history has won without a great big man (Barry's Warriors), and they won one title. Jordan's Bulls won 6. But yeah, they're not an anomaly -- "lots" of teams don't have great big men. Look at the list of quality big men on the champions from 1980 onward:

KAJ
Moses
Parish/McHale
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
KG

Teams with those guys on them have accounted for 21 of the last 29 championships. 6 of the remaining 8 were won by Jordan. The other exception (the '89/'90 Pistons) are mentioned above. But yeah, not an anomaly at all... :oldlol:

[32jazz]

Name these "lot" of championship teams. There have only been 2 or 3 championship teams that did not have an excellent low post offensive force:

1) Barry's Warriors (they won once)

2) Isiah's Pistons (and Laimbeer was a 14 pt/11 reb guy, plus Mahorn/Edwards, the latter of whom was a 14.5 ppg player their second title year)

3) The 2004 Pistons (the Wallaces)

4) Jordan's Bulls (they won 6 times).


It is interesting to note that two of the four teams who have won championships without a great offensive post threat were "ensemble" casts, not typical "superstar/supporting star/role players" type of teams (a la the Bulls/'00's Lakers/'Magic and Bird's teams etc.). The 2004 and '89/'90 Pistons were "sum of many parts" teams, not teams driven and led by one standout star and a supporting star. Additionally, the '04 Pistons had TREMENDOUS shotblocking inside with Ben (3 bpg) and Rasheed (2 bpg). This is a crucial component of championship teams: interior defense. This is another reason why it's generally big men who win titles -- their excellent efficiency, the ability to draw defenders, and their rim defense.

So we can see that only one other superstar-driven team in history has won without a great big man (Barry's Warriors), and they won one title. Jordan's Bulls won 6. But yeah, they're not an anomaly -- "lots" of teams don't have great big men. Look at the list of quality big men on the champions from 1980 onward:

KAJ
Moses
Parish/McHale
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
KG

Teams with those guys on them have accounted for 21 of the last 29 championships. 6 of the remaining 8 were won by Jordan. The other exception (the '89/'90 Pistons) are mentioned above. But yeah, not an anomaly at all... :oldlol:

That was long. I agree with your post. I just like to mention that the '88 Lakers won & 41 year old KAJ(14/5 on 46% shooting) was hardly an excellent/dominate force & actually shared minutes with a still solid Mychal Thompson.

But I guess if you combine both Thompson & KAJ the Lakers did get good production from the Cetner position(scoring wise) although Magic' 13 apg & love for getting the ball to his big men had alot to do with that.

[Laker4Lyfe]

"Jordan was on a whole 'nother' planet"

"This could be Kobe's first ring as a leader"

"You wont be on any list unless you win a championship with 'your team'"

Keep Jordan's name off your fingertips Kobe apostles. It pisses us purists and savants off.

Well then I guess we know for sure that Sir Charles Barkley won't be on ANY lists!!!! Glad to know that he realizes this. :rockon::rockon:

[letsgolakers123]

Well then I guess we know for sure that Sir Charles Barkley won't be on ANY lists!!!! Glad to know that he realizes this. :rockon::rockon:

Yes awesome! He owned himself! What and idiot you are barkley.

[Roundball_Rock]

Look at the list of quality big men on the champions from 1980 onward:

KAJ
Moses
Parish/McHale
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
KG

You can look at that the other way as well.

Quality perimeter players on champs since 1980:

Magic
Erving
Bird
Isiah/Dumars
Jordan/Pippen
Drexler
Kobe
Billups/Rip Hamilton
Wade
Parker/Ginoboli
Pierce/Allen

The only teams to win without all-star level talent at the SF, SG, or PG position since 1980 are the 94' Rockets (the 95' team would not have won without Drexler) and the 99' and arguably the 03' Spurs.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You can look at that the other way as well.

Quality perimeter players on champs since 1980:

Magic
Erving
Bird
Isiah/Dumars
Jordan/Pippen
Drexler
Kobe
Billups/Rip Hamilton
Wade
Parker/Ginoboli
Pierce/Allen

The only teams to win without all-star level talent at the SF, SG, or PG position since 1980 are the 94' Rockets (the 95' team would not have won without Drexler) and the 99' and arguably the 03' Spurs.

:oldlol:

Stay trolling, Roundball. Ever the contrarian. The point is that you generally need a great big man to win; it doesn't matter who else is on the team to make that point abundantly clear. Looked at from another angle: which championship teams since 1980 have NOT had a great interior player(s) and a good/great perimeter player(s)? We all know the answer to that question.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol:

Stay trolling, Roundball. Ever the contrarian. The point is that you generally need a great big man to win; it doesn't matter who else is on the team to make that point abundantly clear. Looked at from another angle: which championship teams since 1980 have NOT had a great interior player(s) and a good/great perimeter player(s)? We all know the answer to that question.
Who else has been in a situation though where they had one of the best SFs ever, GOAT perimeter defender as a #2? Takes so much pressure off as Jordan doesn't have to be the one controlling the tempo of the game and worry about getting others involved. Who else had the greatest rebounder ever on their team on top of that? And one of the best post/overall defenders during the first three-peat (Grant)?

Other than interior scoring (which would have got in the way of Jordan's post game anyways), Bulls were a perfect team in terms of everything else. Rebounding, perimeter defense, shooting, slashing, smart finishers at the rim (Grant underrated in this area), post defense, intangibles, etc etc etc. It's was a very unique situation and should be looked at as such. Throw Lebron, Kobe and even Wade on those teams and you REALLY think they don't win?! Maybe not six but at least four imo. Don't forget, we were possibly one foul away in '94 from adding Pippen to this list as well. Stop trashing the Bulls teams :no:

[Sir Charles]

That is why PER; EFF, Statistical +/- Tells The Story Closer to Reality

Not Rings AMount of Rings or Not, Not Hype, Not Poll Votings, Not Coach Likes, Not All NBA Team Votings, Not Media...

but IMPACT and EFFICIENCY = REALITY

This can only be seen by REAL NBA FANS without the need of the Hype and Votings

As i said before many times and before finding these broken down stats :confusedshrug:

[Sir Charles]

Well then I guess we know for sure that Sir Charles Barkley won't be on ANY lists!!!! Glad to know that he realizes this. :rockon::rockon:

He will be on the Lists of Real NBA Fans...that is why he also feels underrated and Kobe has such Great Team that its laughable...his Impact is Null Compared to Top 20 Real Greatest Players...

Real Impact Indicates Barkley is a Top 5-10 Player of ALL Time but Hype :confusedshrug: , Media, Fanny Boys and Idiots Will Never Admit to it because THEY NEVER LIKED CHARLES ANYHOW...which is Great :cheers: :rockon: :pimp:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Who else has been in a situation though where they had one of the best SFs ever, GOAT perimeter defender as a #2?

Yeah, typical response. Fact is, that's not the trend. No one else has won without great bigs and great smalls. That's a fact.


Other than interior scoring (which would have got in the way of Jordan's post game anyways), Bulls were a perfect team in terms of everything else. Rebounding, perimeter defense, shooting, slashing, smart finishers at the rim (Grant underrated in this area), post defense, intangibles, etc etc etc. It's was a very unique situation and should be looked at as such. Throw Lebron, Kobe and even Wade on those teams and you REALLY think they don't win?! Maybe not six but at least four imo. Don't forget, we were possibly one foul away in '94 from adding Pippen to this list as well. Stop trashing the Bulls teams :no:

:oldlol:

[Fatal9]

Yeah, typical response. Fact is, that's not the trend. No one else has won without great bigs and great smalls. That's a fact.

:oldlol:
:oldlol:

[Allstar24]

Well then I guess we know for sure that Sir Charles Barkley won't be on ANY lists!!!!
Haha.

So true. I knew Barkley was stupid but I didn't think he was this damn stupid.

Kobe: 3
Barkley: 0

Barkley fails again.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol:

Stay trolling, Roundball. Ever the contrarian. The point is that you generally need a great big man to win; it doesn't matter who else is on the team to make that point abundantly clear. Looked at from another angle: which championship teams since 1980 have NOT had a great interior player(s) and a good/great perimeter player(s)? We all know the answer to that question.
Which championship teams who have not had a great interior player and a good/great perimeter player(s), had two top 5 players on their team at the same time? NONE. Like I said it's a very unique situation with those Bulls because of how they were built. There's a reason they showed themselves capable of being contenders in '94 without the GOAT. The point is you are taking underlying shots at the Bulls teams when players like Kobe, Lebron and Wade all would have won a decent # of championships in the same place.

[fadeaway3]

But Bryant isn't miles back from him, either.

You see that's the thing. He is LEAGUES behind MJ right now. Then you have people like your fellow Laker fan below who quoted this post and applauded it. That's the point a lot of these people are trying to make that just fly right past your head. True, many Lakers fans believe that MJ is better than Kobe. However, they make little comments such as the above that imply that they believe the comparisons are valid. Kobe is so far behind MJ right now it isn't even funny. There is no comparison, none, nothing, nada, not even close. Kobe should be compared to guys like Scottie Pippen, James Worthy, Julius Erving, George Gervin, players like that. Those are valid comparisons.

/end thread

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordan made Pippen good. If Pippen never played with MJ from the beginning he would have been out of the league in 2 years.

[D-Rose]

Jordan made Pippen good. If Pippen never played with MJ from the beginning he would have been out of the league in 2 years.
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[chitownsfinest]

Jordan made Pippen good. If Pippen never played with MJ from the beginning he would have been out of the league in 2 years.
Dude just stfu with that BS

[Duncan21formvp]

Dude just stfu with that BS

He averaged 8 points and 4 rebounds his first year. He would have continued to get that if he didn't learn from MJ.

[D-Rose]

He averaged 8 points and 4 rebounds his first year. He would have continued to get that if he didn't learn from MJ.
Or the rise in his production was because he went from playing 20 mins in his rookie year to 38 in a couple of years :oldlol:

[chitownsfinest]

He averaged 8 points and 4 rebounds his first year. He would have continued to get that if he didn't learn from MJ.
He put up great numbers in his final college year, so it was no joke he could play. He also had great athletical gifts (something MJ can't teach) so he would have had no problems being a player of his own. He also had great defensive instincts from the start and that is something MJ can's teach either. He did, however, have a pretty raw offensive game and stale jumper coming in. That is where I believe MJ's influence helped him but Pip returned the favor back by making MJ more of a team player.

[Laker4Lyfe]

He will be on the Lists of Real NBA Fans...that is why he also feels underrated and Kobe has such Great Team that its laughable...his Impact is Null Compared to Top 20 Real Greatest Players...

Real Impact Indicates Barkley is a Top 5-10 Player of ALL Time but Hype :confusedshrug: , Media, Fanny Boys and Idiots Will Never Admit to it because THEY NEVER LIKED CHARLES ANYHOW...which is Great :cheers: :rockon: :pimp:


I only quoted what BARKLEY supposedly said. If that's what he said and that's how he feels then he wont be on any list either period.

What do media, fanboys and idiots have to do what BARKLEY himself said?? :confusedshrug::confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah, typical response. Fact is, that's not the trend. No one else has won without great bigs and great smalls. That's a fact.
:oldlol:

Yeah, and Isiah won twice with no other top 50 player. Isiah=GOAT! :bowdown:


He will be on the Lists of Real NBA Fans...that is why he also feels underrated and Kobe has such Great Team that its laughable...his Impact is Null Compared to Top 20 Real Greatest Players...

Sir_Charles it is Barkley himself who has said you do not belong on the top of any list without a championship. Barkley disqualified himself from the top 10-20 all-time! The funny thing is earlier that day he was on PTI complaining that players like him who never won a ring are unfairly criticized for it.


Which championship teams who have not had a great interior player and a good/great perimeter player(s), had two top 5 players on their team at the same time?

Exactly. If you put the best player in the game with the best SF what do you expect to happen? On top of that add the GOAT rebounder and 2x DPOY or Horace Grant and have Toni Kukoc coming off the bench and it is not surprising they dominated.


Jordan made Pippen good. If Pippen never played with MJ from the beginning he would have been out of the league in 2 years.

Jordan made Pippen a top 5 draft pick out of a small school. :roll: In related news, Michael Jordan can kill two birds--with one stone.

[bruceblitz]

Yeah, and Isiah won twice with no other top 50 player. Isiah=GOAT! :bowdown:



Sir_Charles it is Barkley himself who has said you do not belong on the top of any list without a championship. Barkley disqualified himself from the top 10-20 all-time! The funny thing is earlier that day he was on PTI complaining that players like him who never won a ring are unfairly criticized for it.



Exactly. If you put the best player in the game with the best SF what do you expect to happen? On top of that add the GOAT rebounder and 2x DPOY or Horace Grant and have Toni Kukoc coming off the bench and it is not surprising they dominated.



Jordan made Pippen a top 5 draft pick out of a small school. :roll: In related news, Michael Jordan can kill two birds--with one stone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpwz_rcQ08A
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/9534572/LeBron's-already-the-best-of-his-era
http://www.nysun.com/sports/without-question-lebron-is-leagues-best-player/72508/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/sportsline/main10212799.shtml
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/10/16/nba-top-50-lebron-james-no-1/
( I don't agree with orders 2-50, I do agree with #1)
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/sports/27053-lebron-surpasses-kobe-as-the-top-player-says-nba-legend

Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Chris Webber, Hubie Brown, Jerry West and many many others all have used the statement "LeBron James best player in the NBA...." Michael Jordan even went as far to say that LeBron could go down at the "best ever".

Still trolling, spamming, and posting your agenda spewing crap I see roundballcrockofcrap

[unbreakable]

Remind me again what Jordan won without Scottie Pippen aka top 50 player aka Baddest SF of all time aka 2nd best wingman of that era aka best defensive player of that era aka 55 wins without Jordan

[bruceblitz]

Remind me again what Jordan won without Scottie Pippen aka top 50 player aka Baddest SF of all time aka 2nd best wingman of that era aka best defensive player of that era aka 55 wins without Jordan
1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

1998 = Pippen misses half of the season, Pippen was not 100% in the playoffs he had a bad back. Jordan carried the team again. Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 46.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, led Bulls to 6th championship as leader of the team, In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

[unbreakable]

1998 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 46.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, led Bulls to 6th championship as leader of the team, In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

Nice numbers..very Kobe-esque...except Kobe has had a much tougher road to the Finals in the toughest Western Conference of all time while Jordan was in cruise control to the finals.

[bruceblitz]

Nice numbers..very Kobe-esque...except Kobe has had a much tougher road to the Finals in the toughest Western Conference of all time while Jordan was in cruise control to the finals.
Jordan is the GOAT. Period.

1981 Breaks record at McDonald's All-American game by scoring 30 points

1982= hits game winner for North Carolina, jumps into pass lane on defense forcing Sleepy Floyd to turn the ball over to James Worthy.

1983 = UNC choked in the NCAA tourney despite having the #2 seed, not Jordan

1984 = 1984 Named college Player of the Year. 1984 Wins Olympic gold medal as the leader of the U.S. basketball team. UNC choked again in the sweet 16 despite having the #1 seed, not Jordan

1985 = joined Chicago, who only won 27 games the year before, and led the franchise to 38 wins and the playoff's. 1985 Named NBA Rookie of the Year.

1986 = Scored 63 points on the team that went on to win the championship that year, the Celtics were the #1 rated defense in the NBA, Jordan took them to their limit, despite Orlando Woolridge shooing 9-27 in the game, Jordan still kept the Bulls in it.

1987 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 48.2%(37.1ppg) of his shot attempts, Winner Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA Defensive Player of the Year, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named to the All-NBA First Team, back in the playoffs again. Jordan averaged over 40 points per game for over half of this season.

1988 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.5% of his shot attempts, Wins Slam Dunk Contest, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, Pippen was still developing, the help around Jordan was limited, lost to the eventual world champs in the playoffs, still got them to the playoffs

1989 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.8% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Jordan and his teammates had a decent showing against the Pistons, Jordan did everything he could, the cast around him hadn't developed enough to beat a stacked team like Detroit.

1990 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 52.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Once again ran into the Detroit buzzsaw, but still led the Bulls to the playoffs.

1991 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 53.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Chicago Bulls to their first NBA title. In the 1991 NBA Finals Jordan posted per game averages of 31.2 points on 56% shooting from the field, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks. Jordan won his first NBA Finals MVP award by a unanimous decision, and he cried while holding the NBA Finals trophy.

1992 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 51.9% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Wins Olympic gold medal with U.S. basketball team, leads bulls to back-to-back titles. In the 1992 NBA Finals Jordan was named Finals MVP for the second year in a row and finished the series averaging 35.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, and 6.5 apg, 1.67 steals, .33 blocks while shooting 53% from the floor.

1993 = Jordan wins scoring title while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads bulls to their 3rd straight championship, In the 1993 NBA Finals Jordan averaged a Finals-record 41.0 ppg during the six-game series, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, .67 blocks, 1.67steals, and became the first player in NBA history to win three straight Finals MVP awards. Jordan scored more than 30 points in every game of the series, including 40 or more points in 4 consecutive games, an NBA finals record which has never been threatened.

1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

1996 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 49.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player. Leads Bulls to their 4th championship of Jordan's career as leader of the team. In the 1996 Finals Jordan averaged 27.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.16 assists, 1.67 steals, .17 blocks per game in the 1996 NBA Finals vs Seattle. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy. (Dennis Rodman, great defender, even though Gary Payton beat him out for defensive player of the year award and Dennis Rodman's prime was in the 80's, Rodman was a liability on offense, still contributed with defense and rebounding.)

1997 = Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 48.6% of his shot attempts, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Leads Bulls to 5th championship as the leader of the team, In the 1997 Finals Jordan averaged 32.3 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, .83 blocks, 1.17 steals per game in the 1997 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

1998 = Pippen misses half of the season, Pippen was not 100% in the playoffs he had a bad back. Jordan carried the team again. Jordan wins scoring title, past his athletic prime, while making 46.5% of his shot attempts, Named NBA Most Valuable Player, Named to the All-NBA First Team, Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player, led Bulls to 6th championship as leader of the team, In the 1998 Finals Jordan averaged 33.5 points, 4 rebounds, 2.3 assists, .67 steals, .67 blocks per game in the 1998 NBA finals against the Utah Jazz. Jordan won the Finals MVP trophy.

-Jordan was 6 for 6 in NBA Finals appearances and 6 for 6 with Finals MVP awards


Post Kobe's year by year resume, you will notice how un-Jordanesque it is troll.

[bruceblitz]

Nice numbers..very Kobe-esque...except Kobe has had a much tougher road to the Finals in the toughest Western Conference of all time while Jordan was in cruise control to the finals.
Teams just layed down for Jordan? :oldlol: :hammerhead:
Kobe Bryant is a very talented basketball player, Kobe Bryant set out to emulate Michael Jordan and any observer of the game can see that. Kobe's level of play and achievements have fallen well short of Michael Jordan's level of play and achievements. Kobe Bryant is too far off pace to catch Jordan status yet the NBA continues to use Michael Jordan's name in an attempt to draw more fans to Kobe Bryant. It's not right and they need to stop degrading what Jordan status truly is. To be a true Jordan type player, Kobe would need to have done much much more by this point in his career, he will not ever achieve Jordan status. Everyone should state it like this, --Kobe is an extremely talented player who emulates Michael Jordan, Jordan is a player he looks to emulate because Jordan inspired many people, Kobe Bryant is a Michael Jordan inspired athlete.--

1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986
(1st ranked D)

1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988
(5th ranked D)

1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989
(2cnd ranked D)

1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990
(19th ranked D)

1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991
(14th ranked D)

1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992
(24th ranked D)

1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993
(9th ranked D)

1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995
(9th ranked D)

1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996
(3rd ranked D)

1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997
(13th ranked D)

1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998
(16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES SERIES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
Even more important, Jordan was the main target of these defenses the ENTIRE TIME.


69 Cleveland OT Cleveland 3/28/90
64 Orlando OT Chicago 1/16/93
63 Boston 2OT Boston (Playoffs) * 4/20/86 against #1 rated defense that year
Jordan has the highest point total against a #1 rated defense in league history
in the playoffs no less
61 Detroit OT Detroit 3/4/87
61 Atlanta Chicago 4/16/87
59 Detroit Detroit 3/3/88
58 New Jersey Chicago 2/6/87
57 Washington Chicago 12/23/92
56 Philadelphia Chicago 3/24/87
56 Miami Miami (Playoffs) 4/29/92
55 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/1/88
55 Phoenix Chicago (Playoffs) 6/16/93
55 New York New York 3/28/95
55 Washington Washington (Playoffs) 4/30/97
54 L.A. Lakers Los Angeles 11/20/92
54 Cleveland Chicago 11/3/89
54 New York Chicago (Playoffs) 5/31/93
53 Portland Chicago 1/8/87
53 Indiana Chicago 4/12/87
53 Phoenix Chicago 1/21/89
53 Detroit Chicago 3/7/96
52 Cleveland Chicago 12/17/87
52 Portland Chicago 2/26/88
52 Boston Boston 11/9/88
52 Philadelphia Philadelphia 11/16/88
52 Denver Denver 11/26/88
52 Orlando Orlando 12/20/89
52 Charlotte Chicago 3/12/93
51 New Orleans Washington 12/29/01
51 Washington Washington 3/19/92
51 New York Chicago 1/21/97
50 New York New York 11/1/86
50 Milwaukee Milwaukee 4/13/87
50 Boston Chicago 3/18/88
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 4/28/88
50 Milwaukee Chicago 2/16/89
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/5/89
50 Denver Chicago 3/24/92
50 Miami Miami 11/6/96
Those are Jordan's 50 point games, notice how many of them came in the PLAYOFFS. Notice how many came against great defenses and great teams. Also Jordan was the main focus of each defense he faced. That's very important.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career. Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.

Jordan made 33 out of 58 game winners. Kobe's missed more game winners in the last 5 years than Jordan did in his entire career. Listing Kobe's made game winners is frivilous at best when you don't point out that he's only made barely over 25% of his game winning attempts in his entire career.
Link to 82 games.com's game winning stats:
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Kobe has been propped up to Jordan status without the 5 league MVP's, 6 finals MVP's, 10 scoring titles, playoff averages, career regular season averages, etc. Basically Kobe has been propped up to Jordan status for trying to use Michael Jordan's skill set.

[unbreakable]

Teams just layed down for Jordan? :oldlol: :hammerhead:
Kobe Bryant is a very talented basketball player, Kobe Bryant set out to emulate Michael Jordan and any observer of the game can see that. Kobe's level of play and achievements have fallen well short of Michael Jordan's level of play and achievements. Kobe Bryant is too far off pace to catch Jordan status yet the NBA continues to use Michael Jordan's name in an attempt to draw more fans to Kobe Bryant. It's not right and they need to stop degrading what Jordan status truly is. To be a true Jordan type player, Kobe would need to have done much much more by this point in his career, he will not ever achieve Jordan status. Everyone should state it like this, --Kobe is an extremely talented player who emulates Michael Jordan, Jordan is a player he looks to emulate because Jordan inspired many people, Kobe Bryant is a Michael Jordan inspired athlete.--

1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986
(1st ranked D)

1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988
(5th ranked D)

1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989
(2cnd ranked D)

1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990
(19th ranked D)

1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991
(14th ranked D)

1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992
(24th ranked D)

1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993
(9th ranked D)

1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995
(9th ranked D)

1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996
(3rd ranked D)

1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997
(13th ranked D)

1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998
(16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES SERIES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
Even more important, Jordan was the main target of these defenses the ENTIRE TIME.


69 Cleveland OT Cleveland 3/28/90
64 Orlando OT Chicago 1/16/93
63 Boston 2OT Boston (Playoffs) * 4/20/86 against #1 rated defense that year
Jordan has the highest point total against a #1 rated defense in league history
in the playoffs no less
61 Detroit OT Detroit 3/4/87
61 Atlanta Chicago 4/16/87
59 Detroit Detroit 3/3/88
58 New Jersey Chicago 2/6/87
57 Washington Chicago 12/23/92
56 Philadelphia Chicago 3/24/87
56 Miami Miami (Playoffs) 4/29/92
55 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/1/88
55 Phoenix Chicago (Playoffs) 6/16/93
55 New York New York 3/28/95
55 Washington Washington (Playoffs) 4/30/97
54 L.A. Lakers Los Angeles 11/20/92
54 Cleveland Chicago 11/3/89
54 New York Chicago (Playoffs) 5/31/93
53 Portland Chicago 1/8/87
53 Indiana Chicago 4/12/87
53 Phoenix Chicago 1/21/89
53 Detroit Chicago 3/7/96
52 Cleveland Chicago 12/17/87
52 Portland Chicago 2/26/88
52 Boston Boston 11/9/88
52 Philadelphia Philadelphia 11/16/88
52 Denver Denver 11/26/88
52 Orlando Orlando 12/20/89
52 Charlotte Chicago 3/12/93
51 New Orleans Washington 12/29/01
51 Washington Washington 3/19/92
51 New York Chicago 1/21/97
50 New York New York 11/1/86
50 Milwaukee Milwaukee 4/13/87
50 Boston Chicago 3/18/88
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 4/28/88
50 Milwaukee Chicago 2/16/89
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/5/89
50 Denver Chicago 3/24/92
50 Miami Miami 11/6/96
Those are Jordan's 50 point games, notice how many of them came in the PLAYOFFS. Notice how many came against great defenses and great teams. Also Jordan was the main focus of each defense he faced. That's very important.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career. Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.

Jordan made 33 out of 58 game winners. Kobe's missed more game winners in the last 5 years than Jordan did in his entire career. Listing Kobe's made game winners is frivilous at best when you don't point out that he's only made barely over 25% of his game winning attempts in his entire career.
Link to 82 games.com's game winning stats:
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Kobe has been propped up to Jordan status without the 5 league MVP's, 6 finals MVP's, 10 scoring titles, playoff averages, career regular season averages, etc. Basically Kobe has been propped up to Jordan status for trying to use Michael Jordan's skill set.

Kobe played the Utah Jazz in the 1st round a great defensive team led by Defensive Mongul Jerry Sloan.. followed by the hardnosed Rockets another great defensive team (Jordan never faced a great center) followed by the Denver Nuggets aka the modern bad boy Pistons who eliminated Jordan many times. Its clear that Kobe has played => a Prime Jordan in these playoffs. `

[juju151111]

Remind me again what Jordan won without Scottie Pippen aka top 50 player aka Baddest SF of all time aka 2nd best wingman of that era aka best defensive player of that era aka 55 wins without Jordan
Ok Since you want to be reminded. Mj went to the ECF with scottie in his rookie season ridingh the bench. Mj came back in 95 and won 72% of the gms and Mj in 98 kept the bulls above .500 Also look at this boxscore and tell me what you see http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-score-1990-eastern-conference-finals-game-7.php

[juju151111]

Kobe played the Utah Jazz in the 1st round a great defensive team led by Defensive Mongul Jerry Sloan.. followed by the hardnosed Rockets another great defensive team (Jordan never faced a great center) followed:banghead: by the Denver Nuggets aka the modern bad boy Pistons who eliminated Jordan many times. Its clear that Kobe has played => a Prime Jordan in these playoffs. `
Seriously is this a joke?:banghead: :hammerhead:

[Knoe Itawl]

Kobe played the Utah Jazz in the 1st round a great defensive team led by Defensive Mongul Jerry Sloan.. followed by the hardnosed Rockets another great defensive team (Jordan never faced a great center) followed by the Denver Nuggets aka the modern bad boy Pistons who eliminated Jordan many times. Its clear that Kobe has played => a Prime Jordan in these playoffs. `

Why respond to this obvious moron/troll?

[cotdt]

Why respond to this obvious moron/troll?

He made a good point but you couldn't think of a good comeback, so you resort to personal attacks. So predictable of Kobe haters.

[unbreakable]

Why respond to this obvious moron/troll?

Ahh.. Ho itawl decides to make an appearance.. the same man who said ray allen, pierce, tmac,vince, iverson, stephon marbury, steve nash >> kobe.

Welcome to the party, Ho itawl. :cheers:

[Peter Griffin]

He made a good point but you couldn't think of a good comeback, so you resort to personal attacks. So predictable of Kobe haters.

He didn't make a good point!:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

I haven't seen this much stupidety since my retarded aunt got upset at my gold fish for looking at her, so she tried to drown it!:confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

He made a good point but you couldn't think of a good comeback, so you resort to personal attacks. So predictable of Kobe haters.
LOL I told LA fans that Alphadog wasn't the only troll. Isdh has atleast 10 Trolls who say stupid things about Mj on a daily basis. This guy is another one. This is the reason you see bruce making those threads right here.

[Knoe Itawl]

He made a good point but you couldn't think of a good comeback, so you resort to personal attacks. So predictable of Kobe haters.

No one except other morons/trolls would think he made a good point. Thanks for exposing yourself as yet another one.

[cotdt]

LOL I told LA fans that Alphadog wasn't the only troll. Isdh has atleast 10 Trolls who say stupid things about Mj on a daily basis. This guy is another one. This is the reason you see bruce making those threads right here.

That's ironic, because these people are just countering the anti-Kobe threads that Bruce is making. Look, 90% of basketball fans already recognize Jordan as the GOAT, but when people try to put down Kobe by making it seem like there is some huge gap between them, someone will have to step up and respond. They are closer than anti-Kobe fans want to admit.

[cotdt]

No one except other morons/trolls would think he made a good point. Thanks for exposing yourself as yet another one.

A swing... and a miss. :violin:

[Knoe Itawl]

A swing... and a miss. :violin:

He said that the Nuggets were the "modern Bad Boy Pistons". Only an moron/troll would agree with that. If you do, and think he made "good points" then you are one. And that's the last time I respond to you because I don't address morons/trolls.

[juju151111]

He said that the Nuggets were the "modern Bad Boy Pistons". Only an moron/troll would agree with that. If you do, and think he made "good points" then you are one. And that's the last time I respond to you because I don't address morons/trolls.
Don't respond to these guys man.

[Rasheed1]

the nuggets are the modern day 'bad boys' :roll:


that takes the cake...

[Fatal9]

Pistons are however the most overrated defensive team in history. They have no business being named up there with the 90s Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics. Absolutely none. There are so many flaws I can point out. Also, everyone knows that the "Jordan Rules" were used in only a very limited number of playoff games. Most of his big games against them came when they weren't even used. Jordan just needed a more improved jumpshot, post game etc. The only reason they worked was because his teammates weren't good enough yet. There's a reason the Pistons would not use them later on.

Put current Kobe on the late 80s Bulls teams and I'd say they are more successful at defeating them because at that point in Jordan's career, he didn't have the post game, move set and consistent jumpshot/range like Kobe does now. Just because Jordan failed in certain games does not mean Pistons automatically jump to #1 defense all-time. They weren't even #1 in those specific years! If you ask those bad-boy Pistons to play against the current Lakers with "Kobe Rules" it'll be over quick in a rout. I do think Kobe would have trouble with Rodman guarding him. Dumars? Not so much. Watch the games, it's pretty obvious. Most of the "rules" are just simple and basic things used to defend guards today which include defending them off screens, doubling off pick and roles to stop drives, not allowing free layups and so on. Pistons just happened to be the most committed team and had the right personnel to get it done (Dumar essential as he could stay in front of Jordan, later on though as his jumpshot became automatic and post game improved dramatically, shorter/quicker defenders would give him less trouble).

I would be much more impressed if they held down Jordan when his teammates improved ('90 onward) but that never happened. So when people like to say, the bad boy Pistons would just come in and drop the "Jordan Rules" on Kobe on the current Lakers...think twice, for your credibility's sake.

[Renegar]

Barkley is just saying this because he wants to look good, since he played against Jordan. So of course he got beat by "someone only superhuman" since that could be the only reason Barkley lost of course :lol :lol

All time Rankings right now:

Michael Jordan, then Kobe

Rankings after this year:

Michael Jordan slightly ahead of Kobe

Rankings if Kobe wins one more title after this year's title:

Kobe Bryant >> Michael Jordan

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Barkley is just saying this because he wants to look good, since he played against Jordan. So of course he got beat by "someone only superhuman" since that could be the only reason Barkley lost of course :lol :lol

All time Rankings right now:

Michael Jordan, then Kobe

Rankings after this year:

Michael Jordan slightly ahead of Kobe

Rankings if Kobe wins one more title after this year's title:

Kobe Bryant >> Michael Jordan

it would take a lot more than that to put Kobe in front of MJ...a lot more.

[Renegar]

You see that's the thing. He is LEAGUES behind MJ right now. Then you have people like your fellow Laker fan below who quoted this post and applauded it. That's the point a lot of these people are trying to make that just fly right past your head. True, many Lakers fans believe that MJ is better than Kobe. However, they make little comments such as the above that imply that they believe the comparisons are valid. Kobe is so far behind MJ right now it isn't even funny. There is no comparison, none, nothing, nada, not even close. Kobe should be compared to guys like Scottie Pippen, James Worthy, Julius Erving, George Gervin, players like that. Those are valid comparisons.

/end thread

Another person who thinks Jordan is "way up there". Kobe has scored at least 30 points a season 3 times in his career, along with a 35 ppg season :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: and you're comparing Pippen to him :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Bryant is right there and is challenging Jordan for the greatest all time place after this year's title win

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pistons are however the most overrated defensive team in history. They have no business being named up there with the 90s Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics. Absolutely none. There are so many flaws I can point out. Also, everyone knows that the "Jordan Rules" were used in only a very limited number of playoff games. Most of his big games against them came when they weren't even used. Jordan just needed a more improved jumpshot, post game etc. The only reason they worked was because his teammates weren't good enough yet. There's a reason the Pistons would not use them later on.

Put current Kobe on the late 80s Bulls teams and I'd say they are more successful at defeating them because at that point in Jordan's career, he didn't have the post game, move set and consistent jumpshot/range like Kobe does now. Just because Jordan failed in certain games does not mean Pistons automatically jump to #1 defense all-time. They weren't even #1 in those specific years! If you ask those bad-boy Pistons to play against the current Lakers with "Kobe Rules" it'll be over quick in a rout. I do think Kobe would have trouble with Rodman guarding him. Dumars? Not so much. Watch the games, it's pretty obvious. Most of the "rules" are just simple and basic things used to defend guards today which include defending them off screens, doubling off pick and roles to stop drives, not allowing free layups and so on. Pistons just happened to be the most committed team and had the right personnel to get it done (Dumar essential as he could stay in front of Jordan, later on though as his jumpshot became automatic and post game improved dramatically, shorter/quicker defenders would give him less trouble).

I would be much more impressed if they held down Jordan when his teammates improved ('90 onward) but that never happened. So when people like to say, the bad boy Pistons would just come in and drop the "Jordan Rules" on Kobe on the current Lakers...think twice, for your credibility's sake.

COMEDY. :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

This renegar guy is either a great comedian or an average to below troll. Can't decide which it is :confusedshrug:

[Johnni Gade]

I could've told you this

[Renegar]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Just saw Kobe's playoff statistics for the last 10 years. At least four seasons with 30 ppg (if this year holds and it should). He also had a 29.4 ppg playoff season. Incredible!!!! Also last year's is close to this year's numbers, with exactly a 30.1 ppg, wow!!!!! Another 3 years with 30 ppg playoff seasons and he will surpass Jordan in calibre without any doubt

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Just saw Kobe's playoff statistics for the last 10 years. At least four seasons with 30 ppg (if this year holds and it should). He also had a 29.4 ppg playoff season. Incredible!!!! Also last year's is close to this year's numbers, with exactly a 30.1 ppg, wow!!!!! Another 2 years with 30 ppg playoff seasons and he will surpass Jordan in calibre without any doubt

98-99 LAL 8 8 39.4 0.430 0.348 0.800 1.6 5.3 6.9 4.6 1.9 1.2 3.88 3.00 19.8
99-00 LAL 22 22 39.0 0.442 0.344 0.754 1.2 3.3 4.5 4.4 1.5 1.5 2.50 4.00 21.1
00-01 LAL 16 16 43.4 0.469 0.324 0.821 1.8 5.4 7.3 6.1 1.6 0.8 3.19 3.30 29.4
01-02 LAL 19 19 43.8 0.434 0.379 0.759 1.5 4.4 5.8 4.6 1.4 0.9 2.84 3.40 26.6
02-03 LAL 12 12 44.3 0.432 0.403 0.827 1.3 3.8 5.1 5.2 1.2 0.1 3.50 2.90 32.1
03-04 LAL 22 22 44.2 0.413 0.247 0.813 0.8 3.9 4.7 5.5 1.9 0.3 2.77 2.70 24.5
05-06 LAL 7 7 44.9 0.497 0.400 0.771 0.6 5.7 6.3 5.1 1.1 0.4 4.71 3.60 27.9
06-07 LAL 5 5 43.0 0.462 0.357 0.919 0.2 5.0 5.2 4.4 1.0 0.4 4.40 2.00 32.8
07-08 LAL 21 21 41.1 0.479 0.302 0.809 0.9 4.8 5.7 5.6 1.7 0.4 3.33 2.80 30.1
08-09 LAL 21 21 40.4 0.464 0.347 0.873 0.9 4.4 5.2 5.4 1.7 0.8 2.62 2.60 30.1

Renegar, I would recommend that you go back and look at MJ's numbers...his ENTIRE stat lines... and then take a moment to rethink the statistical comparisons.

Thereafter, stop to think about the accolade comparisons:
1. MVPs
2. Finals MVPs
3. Rings as the team leader.

or are you just trolling at the expense of certain MJ groupies?

[DonDadda59]

Blitz is going to have a copy and paste orgasm at the expense of renegar :roll:

[Johnni Gade]

Key word in this thread is: RIDICULOUS

[Renegar]

Renegar, I would recommend that you go back and look at MJ's numbers...his ENTIRE stat lines... and then take a moment to rethink the statistical comparisons.

Thereafter, stop to think about the accolade comparisons:
1. MVPs
2. Finals MVPs
3. Rings as the team leader.

or are you just trolling at the expense of certain MJ groupies?

Statistics aren't the only thing. Insert Kobe into the 91 to 93 Bulls teams and I guarantee he'd have 35+ ppg games consistently against the 91 Lakers, 92 Trailblazers, 93 Suns in the finals. The fact that Kobe has done this level of scoring in today's era of speed and zone defences speaks volumes. Shaq and Lebron James also scored/score highly in the modern era but Shaq had bulk and James' game is also based a large part on being bulky.

[Fatal9]

Statistics aren't the only thing. Insert Kobe into the 91 to 93 Bulls teams and I guarantee he'd have 35+ ppg games consistently against the 91 Lakers, 92 Trailblazers, 93 Suns in the finals. The fact that Kobe has done this level of scoring in today's era of speed and zone defences speaks volumes. Shaq and Lebron James also scored/score highly in the modern era but Shaq had bulk and James' game is also based a large part on being bulky.
Stop trolling dude, seriously.

[juju151111]

Pistons are however the most overrated defensive team in history. They have no business being named up there with the 90s Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics. Absolutely none. There are so many flaws I can point out. Also, everyone knows that the "Jordan Rules" were used in only a very limited number of playoff games. Most of his big games against them came when they weren't even used. Jordan just needed a more improved jumpshot, post game etc. The only reason they worked was because his teammates weren't good enough yet. There's a reason the Pistons would not use them later on.

Put current Kobe on the late 80s Bulls teams and I'd say they are more successful at defeating them because at that point in Jordan's career, he didn't have the post game, move set and consistent jumpshot/range like Kobe does now. Just because Jordan failed in certain games does not mean Pistons automatically jump to #1 defense all-time. They weren't even #1 in those specific years! If you ask those bad-boy Pistons to play against the current Lakers with "Kobe Rules" it'll be over quick in a rout. I do think Kobe would have trouble with Rodman guarding him. Dumars? Not so much. Watch the games, it's pretty obvious. Most of the "rules" are just simple and basic things used to defend guards today which include defending them off screens, doubling off pick and roles to stop drives, not allowing free layups and so on. Pistons just happened to be the most committed team and had the right personnel to get it done (Dumar essential as he could stay in front of Jordan, later on though as his jumpshot became automatic and post game improved dramatically, shorter/quicker defenders would give him less trouble).

I would be much more impressed if they held down Jordan when his teammates improved ('90 onward) but that never happened. So when people like to say, the bad boy Pistons would just come in and drop the "Jordan Rules" on Kobe on the current Lakers...think twice, for your credibility's sake.
:banghead: :banghead: WTF are yiou talking about?? MJ destroyed the freaking pistons and avged 40 ppg against dumars. How is kobe going to beat thenm if his team doesn't show up??? Ypu said it your self Mj teammates didn't show up, so if koe is on the team they wouldn't show up and would get a loss. Look at this **** man http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-score-1990-eastern-conference-finals-game-7.php LMAO stay off the crack pipe

[juju151111]

Statistics aren't the only thing. Insert Kobe into the 91 to 93 Bulls teams and I guarantee he'd have 35+ ppg games consistently against the 91 Lakers, 92 Trailblazers, 93 Suns in the finals. The fact that Kobe has done this level of scoring in today's era of speed and zone defences speaks volumes. Shaq and Lebron James also scored/score highly in the modern era but Shaq had bulk and James' game is also based a large part on being bulky.
You an't even troll right.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Statistics aren't the only thing. Insert Kobe into the 91 to 93 Bulls teams and I guarantee he'd have 35+ ppg games consistently against the 91 Lakers, 92 Trailblazers, 93 Suns in the finals. The fact that Kobe has done this level of scoring in today's era of speed and zone defences speaks volumes. Shaq and Lebron James also scored/score highly in the modern era but Shaq had bulk and James' game is also based a large part on being bulky.

It's NOT just about POINTS scored.
Kobe could average 40 ppg against any team ever... but he may have to hoist 50 shots to do it and shoot 41%. POINTS scored are just a small part of the big picture.

[Da_Realist]

Pistons are however the most overrated defensive team in history. They have no business being named up there with the 90s Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics. Absolutely none. There are so many flaws I can point out. Also, everyone knows that the "Jordan Rules" were used in only a very limited number of playoff games. Most of his big games against them came when they weren't even used. Jordan just needed a more improved jumpshot, post game etc. The only reason they worked was because his teammates weren't good enough yet. There's a reason the Pistons would not use them later on.

Put current Kobe on the late 80s Bulls teams and I'd say they are more successful at defeating them because at that point in Jordan's career, he didn't have the post game, move set and consistent jumpshot/range like Kobe does now. Just because Jordan failed in certain games does not mean Pistons automatically jump to #1 defense all-time. They weren't even #1 in those specific years! If you ask those bad-boy Pistons to play against the current Lakers with "Kobe Rules" it'll be over quick in a rout. I do think Kobe would have trouble with Rodman guarding him. Dumars? Not so much. Watch the games, it's pretty obvious. Most of the "rules" are just simple and basic things used to defend guards today which include defending them off screens, doubling off pick and roles to stop drives, not allowing free layups and so on. Pistons just happened to be the most committed team and had the right personnel to get it done (Dumar essential as he could stay in front of Jordan, later on though as his jumpshot became automatic and post game improved dramatically, shorter/quicker defenders would give him less trouble).

I would be much more impressed if they held down Jordan when his teammates improved ('90 onward) but that never happened. So when people like to say, the bad boy Pistons would just come in and drop the "Jordan Rules" on Kobe on the current Lakers...think twice, for your credibility's sake.

You're posting this for the benefit of guys who never actually saw them play. No one who actually watched this team play believes this nonsense. The Pistons won 2 titles (and almost a 3rd) based almost solely on defense. They changed the way championship teams win by making it important to focus on defense (not saying earlier teams didn't play great defense...just that the Pistons were the first to make it their primary priority) and pushing physicality to another level.

:roll: @ Kobe having more success against those Pistons than MJ did. The same Kobe that wore himself out last game in a quarter and a half? The same Kobe that missed 12 of his last 16 shots against the mighty Magic? Being guarded by Courtney Lee (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-41-54/Kobe-Bryant-and-Courtney-Lee--Heating-Up.html)?

One of the things about MJ that gets overlooked is his stamina. Most of his career, he played the 4th quarter with as much energy as the 1st. I don't remember him being fatigued late in games until around 97 and 98, when he was 34+ years old. I don't EVER remember him tiring himself out after a quarter and a half. Although the Pistons were an all-time great defensive team, they also wore their opponents down. You weren't as efficient or as high-flying in the 4th as you might have been in the 1st. That's why they won so many close games -- they didn't knock you out so much as they outlasted you.

BTW, MJ averaged 30 points, 6 assists, 7 rebounds on 49 fg% vs the Pistons from 88-91 (which spans 22 playoff games). I highly doubt Kobe would have been more successful.

[Rasheed1]

:oldlol:

[Fatal9]

You're posting this for the benefit of guys who never actually saw them play. No one who actually watched this team play believes this nonsense. The Pistons won 2 titles (and almost a 3rd) based almost solely on defense. They changed the way championship teams win by making it important to focus on defense (not saying earlier teams didn't play great defense...just that the Pistons were the first to make it their primary priority) and pushing physicality to another level.
It's clear to me you have no idea what you are talking about. Typical BS from someone who has only seen highlights, read posts of fanatically-pro-Jordan fans, etc. I have no agenda to push here, I don't give the benefit of the doubt to Jordan (even though he is one my favorite players ever) or Kobe or Lebron or anyone. Just call it like I see it. :oldlol: at you making it sound like Pistons were some sort of legendary defensive team when they were never even #1 in those seasons! Most championship teams are usually top 5 or so defensively and Pistons certainly had a nice offense going for them too. People need to see those Pistons as what they were, a good defensive team, but no where near the level of the 90s Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics. Not even close!

BTW, in the stretch of '89-91. Jordan Rules were only really applied for 3 games in the '89 series (after Jordan scored 46) and Jordan underperformed in all those games (averaging just 24 ppg). Pistons weren't playing the rules on him much at all especially as the Bulls got better. People who think that Jordan faced the rules every game (or even in most games) from '88-91 are mistaken. That type of defense would NEVER work on a team like current Lakers (better help than late 80s Bulls) or even the Cavs (shooters galore). Daly was very cautious on when to use them and in fact didn't decide to use them in '89 until Jordan put up 46 against them, because he was worried about Pippen/Grant's scoring. Even Jordan remarked that the "Jordan Rules" were actually quite simple to beat.

Would Kobe be harder to stop under the Jordan Rules? Um, yes. His game doesn't even depend on drives, open shots off screens etc etc. It's much more perimeter oriented and in comparison with late 80s Jordan, his jumpshot is much better and consistent (especially range wise). Putting Dumars on him would be a disaster, though I think Rodman would do a pretty good job.

[Da_Realist]

It's clear to me you have no idea what you are talking about. Typical BS from someone who has only seen highlights, read posts of fanatically-pro-Jordan fans, etc. I have no agenda to push here, I don't give the benefit of the doubt to Jordan (even though he is one my favorite players ever) or Kobe or Lebron or anyone. Just call it like I see it. :oldlol: at you making it sound like Pistons were some sort of legendary defensive team when they were never even #1 in those seasons! Most championship teams are usually top 5 or so defensively and Pistons certainly had a nice offense going for them too. People need to see those Pistons as what they were, a good defensive team, but no where near the level of the 90s Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics. Not even close!

Good...not great. :oldlol: Whatever you say. And you're getting lost here. Whether they played the "Jordan Rules" defense or not, they were still a great defensive team. Ask the 88 Lakers. Ask the 88 Celtics. Larry Bird only shot 41% against that team in 88. Ask the 90 Blazers, etc.


BTW, in the stretch of '89-91. Jordan Rules were only really applied for 3 games in the '89 series (after Jordan scored 46) and Jordan underperformed in all those games (averaging just 24 ppg).

Wonder why. Maybe because the Pistons were playing great defense. :rolleyes:


That type of defense would NEVER work on a team like current Lakers (better help than late 80s Bulls) or even the Cavs (shooters galore). Daly was very cautious on when to use them and in fact didn't decide to use them in '89 until Jordan put up 46 against them, because he was worried about Pippen/Grant's scoring. Even Jordan remarked that the "Jordan Rules" were actually quite simple to beat.

So your team, led by the one who never shoots above 50% from the field, has shown a history of fading late in playoff games, whose efficiency goes down as the physicality increases would fare better against those Pistons than the 88 and 89 Lakers, the 88 Celtics, the 88-91 Bulls and the 90 Blazers?


Would Kobe be harder to stop under the Jordan Rules? Um, yes. His game doesn't even depend on drives, open shots off screens etc etc. It's much more perimeter oriented and in comparison with late 80s Jordan, his jumpshot is much better and consistent (especially range wise). Putting Dumars on him would be a disaster, though I think Rodman would do a pretty good job.

Sure...Mr. 45% would do a much better job against the Pistons shooting long jumpshots and tough fadeaways. :rolleyes: Don't you understand that would be the gameplan against Kobe? Is that not what the the 04 Pistons did? Last year's Celtics? They wouldn't need to develop a "Kobe Rules" defense. They'll just let him keep jacking up long jumpshots until he wears himself out or quits.

[Knoe Itawl]

Fatal proving what a schizo Bryant fanatic he is. I watched the Bad Boy Pistons every year and you're talking a lot of garbage. Stating that Kobe Bryant, who's never faced the kind of bruising physical defense the Pistons played would fare BETTER than Michael just shows what kind of nonsense you're about. He's consistantly wilted against tough defensive teams ala the 04 Pistons and Celtics last year. Yet he would fare better against Dumars (who Jordan said was his toughest cover) and Rodman, Lambier, Salley, Mahorn et al waiting to punish him if he drove the lane? Pure garbage and yet another example of how much of a clown you are regardless of your ability to spit out excess verbage.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at the FG% idiots.

Kobe's eFG% in playoffs as #1 option which is really the REAL unbiased stat which doesn't unfairly penalize 3pt shooters is comparable to Jordan's during his championship years (in fact actually better than most). Jordan was clearly the more efficient scorer but LOL at the clueless stans who think he never had a bad game, or don't realize that Kobe shooting 47% = Jordan shooting like 49-50%.

The point remains:
- Jordan rules would never work against good teams so posters who think if the '09 Lakers faced off with '89 Pistons that they could drop the Jordan rules to stop Kobe are morons.
- Jordan rules are less effective at stopping Kobe than late 80s Jordan as Kobe was better at shooting off the dribble, had a better post game, better jumpshot and more range. This is especially true as Kobe has never had trouble going against defenders that are 6'2-6'3 (like Dumars).

This has nothing to do with comparing the two or saying who is better. I've watched nearly every one of those games between '88-'91 and these two facts are very clear. Pistons are the most overrated defensive team in the history of the game and the main reason for this is a) the amount of publicity the Jordan Rules got and b) the propagation of myths by hardcore Jordan stans.

What's up with this Kobe-fanatic accusations? I don't even like the guy? Jordan is one of my three favorite players ever (Bird, Pippen the other two). I've made tributes of the guy, have countless game footage of him on my computer and yet I have an agenda against him? :oldlol: at the trolls. Get nervous any time a rational poster like me doesn't go along with the (incorrect) mainstream view.

[Knoe Itawl]

:oldlol: at the FG% idiots.

Kobe's eFG% in playoffs as #1 option which is really the REAL unbiased stat which doesn't unfairly penalize 3pt shooters is comparable to Jordan's during his championship years (in fact actually better than most). Jordan was clearly the more efficient scorer but LOL at the clueless stans who think he never had a bad game, or don't realize that Kobe shooting 47% = Jordan shooting like 49-50%.

The point remains:
- Jordan rules would never work against good teams so posters who think if the '09 Lakers faced off with '89 Pistons that they could drop the Jordan rules to stop Kobe are morons.
- Jordan rules are less effective at stopping Kobe than late 80s Jordan as Kobe was better at shooting off the dribble, had a better post game, better jumpshot and more range. This is especially true as Kobe has never had trouble going against defenders that are 6'2-6'3 (like Dumars).

This has nothing to do with comparing the two or saying who is better. I've watched nearly every one of those games between '88-'91 and these two facts are very clear. Pistons are the most overrated defensive team in the history of the game and the main reason for this is a) the amount of publicity the Jordan Rules got and b) the propagation of myths by hardcore Jordan stans.

What's up with this Kobe-fanatic accusations? I don't even like the guy? Jordan is one of my three favorite players ever (Bird, Pippen the other two). I've made tributes of the guy, have countless game footage of him on my computer and yet I have an agenda against him? :oldlol: at the trolls. Get nervous any time a rational poster like me doesn't go along with the (incorrect) mainstream view.

You're a clown if you say that Kobe Bryant would fare better than Jordan against the Bad Boy Pistons when nothing in his career thus far indicates that he would. That statement alone is enough to dismiss the rest of your blather. I'm all for differing opinions and contrasting views but you saying that is just garbage and meant to influence kids who didn't actually WATCH that era. You're jokes. Nothing more.

[Da_Realist]

What's up with this Kobe-fanatic accusations? I don't even like the guy? Jordan is one of my three favorite players ever (Bird, Pippen the other two). I've made tributes of the guy, have countless game footage of him on my computer and yet I have an agenda against him? :oldlol: at the trolls. Get nervous any time a rational poster like me doesn't go along with the (incorrect) mainstream view.

Who are you fooling? :oldlol:

[Rasheed1]

nobody's buying it :oldlol:

[laalaa]

Knoe the opportunist Itawl, where the **** have you been all season? Are you gonna stick around?:oldlol:

[chitownsfinest]

I'm sorry but you can't just take three pointers off of Kobe's fg %. It is part of his game and it is his fault he has taken so many in his career to hurt his fg %. Shot selection is the mark of a good shooter and the amount of threes Kobe takes proves he isn't as great as people say. If we are going to take the threes of his fg % we might as well take all the points he earned off threes as well. It is pretty obvious you are a Kobe fan as well, seeing as you defend the guy in seemingly every thread that involves him or Jordan.

[AirJordan23]

I have no agenda to push here, I don't give the benefit of the doubt to Jordan (even though he is one my favorite players ever) or Kobe or Lebron or anyone. Just call it like I see it.
:roll:

You're clueless if you think ANYONE actually believes that.

[Fatal9]

Um, nothing I said was really that outrageous OR dismissive of Jordan. :oldlol: at those taking the posts as something along the lines of "Kobe>Jordan", insecure much? Jeez. It's a rational observation. Most people who have watched the game footage (not just highlights) and approach the game with my level of understanding and unbias, should be able to see this. Not every thing is along the lines of "Kobe>Jordan" or "Jordan>Kobe", my perspective on basketball is much more nuanced instead of the simple minded BS that's stuck in your head. If I wanted to I'd shut this thread down by going really in-depth but most of you clowns aren't on my level :oldlol:. Your basketball opinions = shaped by nostalgia and jordolatry (similar to bardolatry except for basketball).

Yea, I really have an agenda against the guy in my avatar, youtube videos/favorites/hardrive footage, childhood idol etc etc. Only the typical ISH trolls think that :oldlol:

[Indian guy]

:roll:

You're clueless if you think ANYONE actually believes that.

The guy is just weird I'm telling you. All agenda-driven trolls are completely aware of what they are and don't shy away from being considered a troll. Yet Fatal9 acts all offended and surprised when accused of being one. It's like he has amnesia or something.

Also, :oldlol: @ him denying being the LORD Of the Kobe groupies. You could practically hear him crying in his posts the other day after Kobe choked away Game 3. This troll, from the day he stepped on ISH, has obsessively done 2 things - deal with his massive insecurity with LeBron and make half-assed arguments against MJ. ONLY Kobe groupies do that. You will NEVER find a non-Kobe groupie who's obsessed with taking down LeBron and MJ.

[Knoe Itawl]

Um, nothing I said was really that outrageous OR dismissive of Jordan. :oldlol: at those taking the posts as something along the lines of "Kobe>Jordan", insecure much? Jeez. It's a rational observation. Most people who have watched the game footage (not just highlights) and approach the game with my level of understanding and unbias, should be able to see this. Not every thing is along the lines of "Kobe>Jordan" or "Jordan>Kobe", my perspective on basketball is much more nuanced instead of the simple minded BS that's stuck in your head. If I wanted to I'd shut this thread down by going really in-depth but most of you clowns aren't on my level :oldlol:. Your basketball opinions = shaped by nostalgia and jordolatry (similar to bardolatry except for basketball).

Yea, I really have an agenda against the guy in my avatar, youtube videos/favorites/hardrive footage, childhood idol etc etc. Only the typical ISH trolls think that :oldlol:

You're full of shyt. NO ONE that knows Jordan's career and that era would say that Kobe would fare BETTER against those Pistons teams than Jordan.

So keep typing War & Peace to try to rationalize it, but only your fellow hardcore Bryant fanatics will buy it.

lol @ you trying to present your garbage opinions as "going against the mainstream" and "deep basketball knowledge". Nope, it's just the same old Bryant apologist nonsense that's been tried for years and years and quite transparent to those of us that have had to deal with your types for years now.

[Mor'Fiyah]

I'm sorry but you can't just take three pointers off of Kobe's fg %. It is part of his game and it is his fault he has taken so many in his career to hurt his fg %. Shot selection is the mark of a good shooter and the amount of threes Kobe takes proves he isn't as great as people say. If we are going to take the threes of his fg % we might as well take all the points he earned off threes as well. It is pretty obvious you are a Kobe fan as well, seeing as you defend the guy in seemingly every thread that involves him or Jordan.

I have to chime in here. 3 pointers are integral to any successful team. Every great team uses the three to space the floor. It just so happens that Kobe Bryant developed his game while playing with the most dominant inside presence in NBA history. His job was to make teams pay from the perimeter. It was necessary for Shaq's dominance to work. Efficiency wise, shooting threes aren't a bad idea or poor shot selection. They are easier shots than mid-range and long-twos and they are harder to guard against. In addition you get half a dunk (made 2) for each three you do make. As a result Kobe has a very good TS%.

[chitownsfinest]

I have to chime in here. 3 pointers are integral to any successful team. Every great team uses the three to space the floor. It just so happens that Kobe Bryant developed his game while playing with the most dominant inside presence in NBA history. His job was to make teams pay from the perimeter. It was necessary for Shaq's dominance to work. Efficiency wise, shooting threes aren't a bad idea or poor shot selection. They are easier shots than mid-range and long-twos and they are harder to guard against. In addition you get half a dunk (made 2) for each three you do make. As a result Kobe has a very good TS%.
I am not saying him taking threes are bad but you know he has a habit of taking dumb threes in games. He has, however, grown out of this and has decreased his three attempts per game by one three this season. This has led to increased efficiency from him.

Also the post you were responding to was not meant to say that taking threes is stupid. My post was directed at another poster trying to take out Kobe's threes from his field goal percentage in an attempt to make his fg% seem higher in order to compare it to MJ's.

[juju151111]

Um, nothing I said was really that outrageous OR dismissive of Jordan. :oldlol: at those taking the posts as something along the lines of "Kobe>Jordan", insecure much? Jeez. It's a rational observation. Most people who have watched the game footage (not just highlights) and approach the game with my level of understanding and unbias, should be able to see this. Not every thing is along the lines of "Kobe>Jordan" or "Jordan>Kobe", my perspective on basketball is much more nuanced instead of the simple minded BS that's stuck in your head. If I wanted to I'd shut this thread down by going really in-depth but most of you clowns aren't on my level :oldlol:. Your basketball opinions = shaped by nostalgia and jordolatry (similar to bardolatry except for basketball).

Yea, I really have an agenda against the guy in my avatar, youtube videos/favorites/hardrive footage, childhood idol etc etc. Only the typical ISH trolls think that :oldlol:
LOL I benn in ISH a long time and i can tell you have an agenda. Once in a blue moon you my post something positve about MJ ( Most likly to bring it up in other threads so you don't look bias). Your full of it man seriously. How would Kobe be more consistant when he isn't now. How in the world would Kobe beat the 90 pistons with his teammates doing this http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-score-1990-eastern-conference-finals-game-7.php

[32jazz]

:oldlol: at the FG% idiots.

Kobe's eFG% in playoffs as #1 option which is really the REAL unbiased stat which doesn't unfairly penalize 3pt shooters is comparable to Jordan's during his championship years (in fact actually better than most). Jordan was clearly the more efficient scorer but LOL at the clueless stans who think he never had a bad game, or don't realize that Kobe shooting 47% = Jordan shooting like 49-50%.

The point remains:
- Jordan rules would never work against good teams so posters who think if the '09 Lakers faced off with '89 Pistons that they could drop the Jordan rules to stop Kobe are morons.
- Jordan rules are less effective at stopping Kobe than late 80s Jordan as Kobe was better at shooting off the dribble, had a better post game, better jumpshot and more range. This is especially true as Kobe has never had trouble going against defenders that are 6'2-6'3 (like Dumars).

This has nothing to do with comparing the two or saying who is better. I've watched nearly every one of those games between '88-'91 and these two facts are very clear. Pistons are the most overrated defensive team in the history of the game and the main reason for this is a) the amount of publicity the Jordan Rules got and b) the propagation of myths by hardcore Jordan stans.

What's up with this Kobe-fanatic accusations? I don't even like the guy? Jordan is one of my three favorite players ever (Bird, Pippen the other two). I've made tributes of the guy, have countless game footage of him on my computer and yet I have an agenda against him? :oldlol: at the trolls. Get nervous any time a rational poster like me doesn't go along with the (incorrect) mainstream view.

:applause:

Great post ,but I hope you did not think that you could not escape the wrath of these MJ sycophants when Rick Barry,Steve Smith & even MJ himself can't escape their wrath if they say something complimentary towards Kobe/Lebron(modern players).

To say that Kobe could not be more efficient in an era absolutely littered with 62/6'3 jump shooting SG's(all good players ) like Dumars, Fat Lever,Sleepy Floyd, Hersey Hawkins,Byron Scott, Andrew Toney,Alvin Robertson, Danny Ainge, Quintin Dailey,Johnny Dawkins,etc.........................is ludicrous.:oldlol: The guard position (thanks to dominance/greatness of MJ/Magic/Drexler) has changed tremendousy from that era & the mid/late 90's saw the transition to the bigger more athletic 2's & PG's you see today.(Wilt Chamberlain on average had less of an height advantage against starting centers of his era than MJ/Magic/Drexler had at the guard position for most of their careers).

If Kobe made his living abusing starting SG's like the ones mentioned above he would be mocked. You can never reason with the insecure MJ sycophants & those who are sentimetality stuck in the the late 80's/early 90's.

[Fatal9]

You could practically hear him crying in his posts the other day after Kobe choked away Game 3.
I was on here bashing him like most people. Saying he choked and the game is on him :confusedshrug: . I know that I've "owned" you in nearly every thread (sorry!), but you gotta get over this hate.

Still figuring out a single instance where I've overrated Kobe? I approach him with indifference, like I've said before. But I guess not hating on him on this board is as good as being the LORD stan. Is Kobe top 10 all time if he wins this year? Duh. Does Kobe win championships in MJs place? Yup (even the biggest Jordan fan on here estimated he wins atleast 3-4). Was Kobe a dispensable sidekick for the three rings? Nope. Are Jordan rules less geared at stopping Kobe, considering his game didn't depend as much on driving as Jordan's did? True again. But this is just stan talk, right? :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

You're full of shyt. NO ONE that knows Jordan's career and that era would say that Kobe would fare BETTER against those Pistons teams than Jordan.

So keep typing War & Peace to try to rationalize it, but only your fellow hardcore Bryant fanatics will buy it.

lol @ you trying to present your garbage opinions as "going against the mainstream" and "deep basketball knowledge". Nope, it's just the same old Bryant apologist nonsense that's been tried for years and years and quite transparent to those of us that have had to deal with your types for years now.
Dude, Fatal9 is KB42PAH

[D-Rose]

Dude, Fatal9 is KB42PAH
:oldlol:

[Fatal9]

Dude, Fatal9 is KB42PAH
:roll:

[Mor'Fiyah]

I am not saying him taking threes are bad but you know he has a habit of taking dumb threes in games. He has, however, grown out of this and has decreased his three attempts per game by one three this season. This has led to increased efficiency from him.

Also the post you were responding to was not meant to say that taking threes is stupid. My post was directed at another poster trying to take out Kobe's threes from his field goal percentage in an attempt to make his fg% seem higher in order to compare it to MJ's.

Noted. You get no argument from me. Jordan was more efficient than Kobe has ever been and probably ever will be. However, that being said, the disparity in FG% between Kobe and Jordan is not simply Jordan's FG% - Kobe's FG% precisely because of three pointers. Kobe is actually a more efficient player than his FG% would suggest. Just throwing that out there.

Carry on.

[juju151111]

Dude, Fatal9 is KB42PAH
na I post on pahs page on youtube. Pah is on another level then Fatal. Fatal atleast says something good about MJ (Even if it's rarly) and Pah calls Kobe Goat after every game. I prefer Pah tho because he doesn't pretend like Fatal does. 32jazz is another retard.

[juju151111]

I was on here bashing him like most people. Saying he choked and the game is on him :confusedshrug: . I know that I've "owned" you in nearly every thread (sorry!), but you gotta get over this hate.

Still figuring out a single instance where I've overrated Kobe? I approach him with indifference, like I've said before. But I guess not hating on him on this board is as good as being the LORD stan. Is Kobe top 10 all time if he wins this year? Duh. Does Kobe win championships in MJs place? Yup (even the biggest Jordan fan on here estimated he wins atleast 3-4). Was Kobe a dispensable sidekick for the three rings? Nope. Are Jordan rules less geared at stopping Kobe, considering his game didn't depend as much on driving as Jordan's did? True again. But this is just stan talk, right? :oldlol:
Once again did Kobe beat the suns with his bum ass team in 06?? No So how the **** do you expect kobe to beat 2 time chips the pistons. Fatal Once again Tell me wat you see here http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-score-1990-eastern-conference-finals-game-7.php

[letsgolakers123]

That is why PER; EFF, Statistical +/- Tells The Story Closer to Reality

Not Rings AMount of Rings or Not, Not Hype, Not Poll Votings, Not Coach Likes, Not All NBA Team Votings, Not Media...

but IMPACT and EFFICIENCY = REALITY

This can only be seen by REAL NBA FANS without the need of the Hype and Votings

As i said before many times and before finding these broken down stats :confusedshrug:

haha sir charles you can't be considered the top of anything if you did not win with your team!! hahaha

[Fatal9]

Once again did Kobe beat the suns with his bum ass team in 06?? No So how the **** do you expect kobe to beat 2 time chips the pistons. Fatal Once again Tell me wat you see here http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-score-1990-eastern-conference-finals-game-7.php
What are you trying to prove with this one game? Jordan's teammates weren't ready yet? I've already said that so what do you want :confusedshrug:.

I'm not saying Kobe leads the Bulls to win against the Pistons or anything along those lines. The point is that a) Piston defense is very overrated and should not be compared with 90s Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics, and b) Jordan Rules would be less effective at stopping Kobe. The reason for saying this is because people have this stubborn, misleading image of the "bad-boys" (the moniker doesn't help!) Pistons, and also because they are brought in to the discussion of greatest defensive teams when they don't belong (seriously what all-time great defensive teams aren't even the best rated defense in the league at the time?!?).

[32jazz]

na I post on pahs page on youtube. Pah is on another level then Fatal. Fatal atleast says something good about MJ (Even if it's rarly) and Pah calls Kobe Goat after every game. I prefer Pah tho because he doesn't pretend like Fatal does. 32jazz is another retard.

Based upon my only dozen or so posts (in over a year) weighing in on a subject(Kobe/MJ which I usually avoid like the plague) it's apparent that it's losers like you, with over 3000 posts, who are the mentally/socially challenged ones.

I only bothered to speak of this subject 1) because Kobe is a first page obssession & 2) I'm amused at how even Rick Barry,Smith,MJ & anyone who dare says something good about Lebron/Kobe is trashed.

The insecurity you losers show is the same that I saw from some when it was apparent that Obama could become President(white supremists sites were crashing):oldlol: The world won't end IF Kobe wins so stop with all the Kobe threads/hate.

For the most part I have better things to do than argue(like homos ) over two men who could crush us all with their wallets. Message boards cannot make or break these mens' bank accounts nor their legacy.

[Roundball_Rock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpwz_rcQ08A
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/9534572/LeBron's-already-the-best-of-his-era
http://www.nysun.com/sports/without-question-lebron-is-leagues-best-player/72508/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/sportsline/main10212799.shtml
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/10/16/nba-top-50-lebron-james-no-1/
( I don't agree with orders 2-50, I do agree with #1)
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/sports/27053-lebron-surpasses-kobe-as-the-top-player-says-nba-legend

Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Chris Webber, Hubie Brown, Jerry West and many many others all have used the statement "LeBron James best player in the NBA...." Michael Jordan even went as far to say that LeBron could go down at the "best ever".

Still trolling, spamming, and posting your agenda spewing crap I see roundballcrockofcrap

What does LeBron have to do with Pippen, Jordan, and Charles Barkley? :wtf:

I agree that LeBron is the best player in the league right now btw.


a 55 wins without Jordan Ok Since you want to be reminded. Mj went to the ECF with scottie in his rookie season ridingh the bench.

Myth. MJ lost in five games in the ECSF in Pippen/Grant's rookie year. He did not start making the ECF until Pippen/Grant became starters and Pippen the second leading scorer. 1988 was significant because it was the first time MJ got out the first round.


Look, 90% of basketball fans already recognize Jordan as the GOAT

Exactly and those who do not consider MJ the GOAT believe someone like Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Russell, or Bird is the GOAT. I find it amusing that criticism of MJ is deemed to be an attempt to elevate Kobe. Kobe is not in that top tier. If MJ gets knocked down that elevates Kareem, Wilt, Magic, and co.


'm sorry but you can't just take three pointers off of Kobe's fg %. It is part of his game and it is his fault he has taken so many in his career to hurt his fg %.

Shooting 34% on 3's is as efficient as shooting 51% on 2's. They both produce 1.02 points per 2 shots.

As to Fatal, calling him a troll is ridiculous. :roll: This guy ALWAYS backs up his opinions with well-reasoned, well-argued and factual posts. :bowdown:


Dude, Fatal9 is KB42PAH

Wait, I heard yesterday that I am. :confusedshrug: :oldlol:


32jazz is another retard.

:oldlol: 32jazz is another great poster.


The insecurity you losers show is the same that I saw from some when it was apparent that Obama could become President(white supremists sites were crashing) The world won't end IF Kobe wins so stop with all the Kobe threads/hate.

Yup. :lol

[juju151111]

Based upon my only dozen or so posts (in over a year) weighing in on a subject(Kobe/MJ which I usually avoid like the plague) it's apparent that it's losers like you, with over 3000 posts, who are the mentally/socially challenged ones.

I only bothered to speak of this subject 1) because Kobe is a first page obssession & 2) I'm amused at how even Rick Barry,Smith,MJ & anyone who dare says something good about Lebron/Kobe is trashed.

The insecurity you losers show is the same that I saw from some when it was apparent that Obama could become President(white supremists sites were crashing):oldlol: The world won't end IF Kobe wins so stop with all the Kobe threads/hate.

For the most part I have better things to do than argue(like homos ) over two men who could crush us all with their wallets. Message boards cannot make or break these mens' bank accounts nor their legacy.
Well obviously i am talking about the times you commented on the subject. Do you avoid the threads with KB fans trying to overrate him especially last year. They went nuts when he made the finals.( They loss which is why you see alot of LA fans backing down this year). I didn't know my post count made me a loser. I will try to post less so you can have a better opinion of me ok.:rolleyes:

[juju151111]

What does LeBron have to do with Pippen, Jordan, and Charles Barkley? :wtf:

I agree that LeBron is the best player in the league right now btw.



Myth. MJ lost in five games in the ECSF in Pippen/Grant's rookie year. He did not start making the ECF until Pippen/Grant became starters and Pippen the second leading scorer. 1988 was significant because it was the first time MJ got out the first round.



Exactly and those who do not consider MJ the GOAT believe someone like Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Russell, or Bird is the GOAT. I find it amusing that criticism of MJ is deemed to be an attempt to elevate Kobe. Kobe is not in that top tier. If MJ gets knocked down that elevates Kareem, Wilt, Magic, and co.



Shooting 34% on 3's is as efficient as shooting 51% on 2's. They both produce 1.02 points per 2 shots.

As to Fatal, calling him a troll is ridiculous. :roll: This guy ALWAYS backs up his opinions with well-reasoned, well-argued and factual posts. :bowdown:



Wait, I heard yesterday that I am. :confusedshrug: :oldlol:



:oldlol: 32jazz is another great poster.



Yup. :lol
My fault about 88. your right it was the ECSF. I actually like your posts, when it doesn't have to do with MJ lol

[32jazz]

Well obviously i am talking about the times you commented on the subject. Do you avoid the threads with KB fans trying to overrate him especially last year. They went nuts when he made the finals.( They loss which is why you see alot of LA fans backing down this year). I didn't know my post count made me a loser. I will try to post less so you can have a better opinion of me ok.:rolleyes:


No your obssession with another man(Kobe especially ) & calling me out for no reason makes you a loser. Nowhere have I nor roundball, fatal 9, Rick Barry,etc......... said that Kobe is better than MJ so what's with attacking us:confusedshrug: (Although I don't think it is a big a gulf as some would have us believe).

In fact I specifically state that MJ is the best all around SG ever. Period. Why is saying something complimentary about Lebron/Kobe so offensive? Insecurity? What's in it for you guys to defend another man so viciously & at someone else's expense many times?

Some one has stated that MJ's legacy is set in stone(I agree wholeheartedly) so what's the point in obssessing over Kobe & attacking anyone who thinks he or Lebron are great players also?

[juju151111]

No your obssession with another man(Kobe especially ) & calling me out for no reason makes you a loser. Nowhere have I nor roundball, fatal 9, Rick Barry,etc......... said that Kobe is better than MJ so what's with attacking us:confusedshrug: (Although I don't think it is a big a gulf as some would have us believe).

In fact I specifically state that MJ is the best all around SG ever. Period. Why is saying something complimentary about Lebron/Kobe so offensive? Insecurity? What's in it for you guys to defend another man so viciously & at someone else's expense many times?

Some one has stated that MJ's legacy is set in stone(I agree wholeheartedly) so what's the point in obssessing over Kobe & attacking anyone who thinks he or Lebron are great players also?
LOL i am not obssess with kobe lol. Some people don't have to say KB>MJ They can imply it. For example, You will see Kobe fans say this " MJ>KB, but MJ played against shorter, weaker, etc.." I don't bash Kobe at all (Your thinking of someone else) i defend MJ. I agree that KB and LB are great players. How could i hate people i don't even now?

[DonDadda59]

What are you trying to prove with this one game? Jordan's teammates weren't ready yet? I've already said that so what do you want :confusedshrug:.

I'm not saying Kobe leads the Bulls to win against the Pistons or anything along those lines. The point is that a) Piston defense is very overrated and should not be compared with 90s Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics, and b) Jordan Rules would be less effective at stopping Kobe. The reason for saying this is because people have this stubborn, misleading image of the "bad-boys" (the moniker doesn't help!) Pistons, and also because they are brought in to the discussion of greatest defensive teams when they don't belong (seriously what all-time great defensive teams aren't even the best rated defense in the league at the time?!?).

2003-2004 Detroit Pistons Defensive Rating: 95.4 (2nd of 29)

You simply don't learn do you? Stop posting already. :no:

[bruceblitz]

1: Kobe faces easier competition and less intense defenses:
Proof is as follows

Kobe's improved scoring a product of the rules changes?

-Kobe Bryant in years that the NBA did allow the handchecking technique:
561 games - 21.77 ppg

-Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years that handchecking was allowed (01-02, 02-03, 03-04)
227 games - 26.59ppg

(01-02, 02-03, 03-04 Playoffs: Kobe avg 20.7 shots per game vs Shaq who averaged 16.85 shots per game, during this timespan of 3 years, so as you can see Shaq was able to outscore Kobe with efficiency. The main reason that Kobe started to take more shots than Shaq was the fact that teams were double teaming Shaq too much so he was passing out of these double teams and getting players like Kobe more good looks. Did Shaq bail Kobe out? yes, a lot. Shaq was outscoring Kobe in their last 3 years together on 4 less shot attempts per game. Shaq always saved his best for the playoffs and finals. Shaq was the most dominant center in NBA Finals history during the LA Lakers portion of his career!)

-Kobe Bryant since the new handchecking interpretation was instituted in 2004-05 (including 08-09)
387 games - 29.98 ppg

KOBE ALSO DIDN'T START FACING THAT MANY DOUBLE TEAMS UNTIL SHAQ LEFT THE TEAM. SHAQ WAS THE ONE DRAWING THE MAJORITY OF DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TEAMS WHICH FREES UP KOBE ON THE PERIMETER.

THE FIRST YEAR THAT KOBE WAS THE MAIN FOCUS OF DEFENSES, HIS FG% WASN'T GOOD AT ALL DUE TO THE FACT THAT KOBE NOW HAD TO LEARN HOW TO DEFEAT DOUBLE TEAMS IN 2004-2005, KOBE SHOT 43.3% THAT YEAR.

--sidenote: Kobe's assists per game have jumped from a shade over 4 assists per game to 5.5 assists per game since the absence of handchecking. Further proof that the absence of handchecking has opened up the game for easier scoring. Also, the aspect that most forget, with the absence of handchecking it is also easier to take more shot attempts. You can square up and face a defender face to face instead of turning your back to protect the ball which allows for the and1 style crossovers and the 'street' moves you see more prevalent in today's game. Allow handchecking and you would see perimeter players using moves similar to post moves, 20-25 feet away from the basket, just to sheild the ball.

-------------------
♠ Reggie Miller's comments 08
1. "Michael Jordan was the hardest player in history to guard" paraphrased
2. "Kobe and Iverson hardest today." paraphrased
3. Talking about Kobe: "Because of the new rules where you can't handcheck, or put your hands on players, he's able to roam free up and down the court" - 100% actual wording
---no handchecking, less contact = easier scoring
--Reggie Miller has played defense on all 3 players, MJ, Kobe, Iverson
--sidenote: Reggie held Kobe to 14ppg on 36% shooting in the 2000 finals.

This is the attitude and style of play during the Jordan era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ
You don't see that anymore....

[BlackMamba24]

1: Kobe faces easier competition and less intense defenses:
Proof is as follows

Kobe's improved scoring a product of the rules changes?

-Kobe Bryant in years that the NBA did allow the handchecking technique:
561 games - 21.77 ppg

-Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years that handchecking was allowed (01-02, 02-03, 03-04)
227 games - 26.59ppg

(01-02, 02-03, 03-04 Playoffs: Kobe avg 20.7 shots per game vs Shaq who averaged 16.85 shots per game, during this timespan of 3 years, so as you can see Shaq was able to outscore Kobe with efficiency. The main reason that Kobe started to take more shots than Shaq was the fact that teams were double teaming Shaq too much so he was passing out of these double teams and getting players like Kobe more good looks. Did Shaq bail Kobe out? yes, a lot. Shaq was outscoring Kobe in their last 3 years together on 4 less shot attempts per game. Shaq always saved his best for the playoffs and finals. Shaq was the most dominant center in NBA Finals history during the LA Lakers portion of his career!)

-Kobe Bryant since the new handchecking interpretation was instituted in 2004-05 (including 08-09)
387 games - 29.98 ppg

KOBE ALSO DIDN'T START FACING THAT MANY DOUBLE TEAMS UNTIL SHAQ LEFT THE TEAM. SHAQ WAS THE ONE DRAWING THE MAJORITY OF DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TEAMS WHICH FREES UP KOBE ON THE PERIMETER.

THE FIRST YEAR THAT KOBE WAS THE MAIN FOCUS OF DEFENSES, HIS FG% WASN'T GOOD AT ALL DUE TO THE FACT THAT KOBE NOW HAD TO LEARN HOW TO DEFEAT DOUBLE TEAMS IN 2004-2005, KOBE SHOT 43.3% THAT YEAR.

--sidenote: Kobe's assists per game have jumped from a shade over 4 assists per game to 5.5 assists per game since the absence of handchecking. Further proof that the absence of handchecking has opened up the game for easier scoring. Also, the aspect that most forget, with the absence of handchecking it is also easier to take more shot attempts. You can square up and face a defender face to face instead of turning your back to protect the ball which allows for the and1 style crossovers and the 'street' moves you see more prevalent in today's game. Allow handchecking and you would see perimeter players using moves similar to post moves, 20-25 feet away from the basket, just to sheild the ball.

-------------------
♠ Reggie Miller's comments 08
1. "Michael Jordan was the hardest player in history to guard" paraphrased
2. "Kobe and Iverson hardest today." paraphrased
3. Talking about Kobe: "Because of the new rules where you can't handcheck, or put your hands on players, he's able to roam free up and down the court" - 100% actual wording
---no handchecking, less contact = easier scoring
--Reggie Miller has played defense on all 3 players, MJ, Kobe, Iverson
--sidenote: Reggie held Kobe to 14ppg on 36% shooting in the 2000 finals.

This is the attitude and style of play during the Jordan era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ
You don't see that anymore....

Kobe is the GOAT. Period

81. 62 in 3 quarters. Better 3 point shooter. Better rebounder, scorer, more clutch and a better defender.

Carried Shaq to 3 rings. Robbed of 5 mvps. Shutdown Jordan in 2003 all star game. Jordan<Kobe.

[OneMoreSucka]

1: Kobe faces easier competition and less intense defenses:
Proof is as follows

Kobe's improved scoring a product of the rules changes?

-Kobe Bryant in years that the NBA did allow the handchecking technique:
561 games - 21.77 ppg

-Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years that handchecking was allowed (01-02, 02-03, 03-04)
227 games - 26.59ppg

(01-02, 02-03, 03-04 Playoffs: Kobe avg 20.7 shots per game vs Shaq who averaged 16.85 shots per game, during this timespan of 3 years, so as you can see Shaq was able to outscore Kobe with efficiency. The main reason that Kobe started to take more shots than Shaq was the fact that teams were double teaming Shaq too much so he was passing out of these double teams and getting players like Kobe more good looks. Did Shaq bail Kobe out? yes, a lot. Shaq was outscoring Kobe in their last 3 years together on 4 less shot attempts per game. Shaq always saved his best for the playoffs and finals. Shaq was the most dominant center in NBA Finals history during the LA Lakers portion of his career!)

-Kobe Bryant since the new handchecking interpretation was instituted in 2004-05 (including 08-09)
387 games - 29.98 ppg

KOBE ALSO DIDN'T START FACING THAT MANY DOUBLE TEAMS UNTIL SHAQ LEFT THE TEAM. SHAQ WAS THE ONE DRAWING THE MAJORITY OF DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TEAMS WHICH FREES UP KOBE ON THE PERIMETER.

THE FIRST YEAR THAT KOBE WAS THE MAIN FOCUS OF DEFENSES, HIS FG% WASN'T GOOD AT ALL DUE TO THE FACT THAT KOBE NOW HAD TO LEARN HOW TO DEFEAT DOUBLE TEAMS IN 2004-2005, KOBE SHOT 43.3% THAT YEAR.

--sidenote: Kobe's assists per game have jumped from a shade over 4 assists per game to 5.5 assists per game since the absence of handchecking. Further proof that the absence of handchecking has opened up the game for easier scoring. Also, the aspect that most forget, with the absence of handchecking it is also easier to take more shot attempts. You can square up and face a defender face to face instead of turning your back to protect the ball which allows for the and1 style crossovers and the 'street' moves you see more prevalent in today's game. Allow handchecking and you would see perimeter players using moves similar to post moves, 20-25 feet away from the basket, just to sheild the ball.

-------------------
♠ Reggie Miller's comments 08
1. "Michael Jordan was the hardest player in history to guard" paraphrased
2. "Kobe and Iverson hardest today." paraphrased
3. Talking about Kobe: "Because of the new rules where you can't handcheck, or put your hands on players, he's able to roam free up and down the court" - 100% actual wording
---no handchecking, less contact = easier scoring
--Reggie Miller has played defense on all 3 players, MJ, Kobe, Iverson
--sidenote: Reggie held Kobe to 14ppg on 36% shooting in the 2000 finals.

This is the attitude and style of play during the Jordan era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ
You don't see that anymore....


Your argument fails in all areas when you failed to mention that the only reason his PPG went up was because he put in the work and effort and ****ing became a better player. Handchecks :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DonDadda59]

Kobe is the GOAT. Period

81. 62 in 3 quarters. Better 3 point shooter. Better rebounder, scorer, more clutch and a better defender.

Carried Shaq to 3 rings. Robbed of 5 mvps. Shutdown Jordan in 2003 all star game. Jordan<Kobe.

More Please :applause:

[Da_Realist]

This post is very interesting, IMO, as it shows just how much we put Jordan on a pedestal. The GOAT is an opinion, yet it is widely claimed as a fact that it was Jordan, and no one that claims that is willing to budge from their position. Jordan's greatness is so... revered.... that anything positive on that team HAD to be because of him. It is impossible for most fans to be objective when it comes to anything concerning Jordan.

I'm not pointing out anyone, but that "bias" definitely exists and clouds judgment, especially in this discussion. Playing second fiddle to anyone else, we may be able to recognize greatness, but if you play second fiddle to Jordan, you are a product of his greatness.


Exactly. It is like a cult...This is what annoys some us Pippen fans about MJ fans. MJ is my second favorite player of all-time but I have to criticize him now and then because of this fanaticism.

What is odd is only MJ fans do this. You don't see Magic/Kareem fans saying Worthy and Scott sucked, Bird fans claiming McHale was a scrub without Bird, etc. Even today you see Kobe fans constantly overrating his teammates by claiming Gasol is a top 10 or top 15 player and claiming that Bynum will be a great center. The ONLY fan bases I see who are hellbent on always diminishing their hero's teammates are Jordan and LeBron fans (often one and the same)...

Probably has something to do with this -->

Let's look at how some stars matchup with their teammates while they were on the same team...

Magic 3 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's
Kareem 1 MVP's, 1 Finals MVP's

Bird 3 MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's
Cedric Maxwell 1 Finals MVP

Isiah Thomas 1 Finals MVP
Joe Dumars 1 Finals MVP

Hakeem Olajuwon 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVP's
Teammates 0

Shaq 1 MVP, 3 Finals MVP's
Teammates 0

Tim Duncan 2 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's
Tony Parker 1 Finals MVP

There's not much Magic fans can say about Kareem, for instance, when the man won 6 MVP's and 2 Finals MVP's himself. Kareem won an MVP and a Finals MVP (2 different years) while Magic was still on the team. Also, James Worthy bagged a Finals MVP as well in 88. And a lot of people dismiss Norm Nixon on those early 80's Lakers teams when he and Magic both shared point guard duties.

Bird won 3 MVP's and 2 Finals MVP's, but Cedric Maxwell snagged a Finals MVP and Mchale would have had one as well if the Celtics had beaten the Lakers in 85 (as it's fairly common knowledge that McHale was the best Celtic for that series.) These contributions happened while Bird and Magic was on the floor.

Jordan 5 MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's
Pippen 0 MVP's, 0 Finals MVP's

These numbers encourage people to deify Jordan, which in turns causes you to exhaustively paste the same post in every thread to "represent" Pippen. Has there ever been such a discrepancy between one top 50 player and his top 50 teammate? Ever? That might be the reason both sides are having such a hard time understanding each other.