Julius Erving vs. Scottie Pippen

[Lebron23]

Who had the better career?

Julius Erving

* 1

[Roundball_Rock]

Scottie Pippen


# 6x NBA Champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
# 7x NBA All-Star (1990, 1992–1997)
# 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1994)
# 3x All-NBA First Team Selection (1994–1996)
# 2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1992, 1997)
# 2x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1993, 1998)
# 8x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1992–1999)
# 2x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1991, 2000)
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Team
# GOAT perimeter defender


Fixed.

Also why are you using ABA stats for Erving? The ABA was a joke. When Dr. J moved to the NBA his stats declined roughly 25% across the board.

Here are his NBA stats: 22.0 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.8 spg, 1.5 bpg, 50.7 FG %, 77.7 FT %

[Interminator]

Why didn't you include Erving's ABA stats and accomplishments if you're asking about their basketball career?


Julius Erving.

/End Thread

[Peter Griffin]

Easily Scottie Pippen, he was a big reason why the Bulls won 6 titles! Also, he was the Greatest Perimeter Defender of All-Time! Also, when you compare players, shouldn't we take offense and the defense in combined consideration?! Pippen is my choice! Also without Pippen, Michael Jordan would be nothing but a career loser in the playoffs!

[Roundball_Rock]

Why didn't you include Erving's ABA stats and accomplishments if you're asking about their basketball career?


The ABA was a joke. If we are going to go outside the NBA let's look at Pippen winning two gold medals. On the original Dream Team it was he, not John Stockton or Magic Johnson, who led the team in assists (it shows what prime Pippen could do as far as assists go outside the triangle offense), and was the second best player on the team (behind MJ of course) according to the coach of the team, Chuck Daly.


Also, when you compare players, shouldn't we take offense and the defense in combined consideration?!

We should since defense is half the game but a lot of people only look at scoring. If you factor in defense then Pippen is top 20 all-time.

[hateraid]

Lol at:

-people saying Julius was at a decline in the NBA
-people underestimating Dr.J as a defender

Maybe Scottie had the better career in the NBA but he's not the better player.

[Roundball_Rock]

He did decline when he played against real comp.

Dr. J's last year in the ABA: 29.3 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.5 spg, 1.9 bpg
Dr. J the following year in the NBA: 21.6 pgg, 8.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.9 apg, 1.4 bpg

His stats were down roughly 25% across the board when he moved up to the NBA.

[Disaprine]

Dr J wins

[InspiredLebowski]

He did decline when he played against real comp.

Dr. J's last year in the ABA: 29.3 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.5 spg, 1.9 bpg
Dr. J the following year in the NBA: 21.6 pgg, 8.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.9 apg, 1.4 bpg

His stats were down roughly 25% across the board when he moved up to the NBA.

That's because of the pace differences and the lack of the 3 (though admittedly it probably didn't help J much). If the NBA was such better competition the year after the merger why were over half the players former ABAers?

[hateraid]

He did decline when he played against real comp.

Dr. J's last year in the ABA: 29.3 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.5 spg, 1.9 bpg
Dr. J the following year in the NBA: 21.6 pgg, 8.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.9 apg, 1.4 bpg

His stats were down roughly 25% across the board when he moved up to the NBA.


From his transition from the ABA to the NBA Julius went from a team who's second best player was John williamson to a Sixer team that had scorers like George McGinnis, Doug Collins, and World B. Free, rebounders like McGinnis again, Caldwell Jones, and Darryl Dawkins, and talents like Fred Carter, Joe Bryant, and Henry Bibby as well. He played less minutes and had 300 less touches in the season. Of course his stats would decline! But upon Julius's arrival he improved the team's record and took first in the Atlantic, was still they're leading scorer, had took them to the finals (previous year they were outed in the first round by Buffalo), and made all-second team with teammate McGinnis. Four years later won a league MVP, was always on the NBA first team (until 1983), and was the only player to be a starter in the ASG his whole NBA career.

[Jailblazers7]

Dr, J was a basketball revolutionary. Dozens of players after him can point to his style as highly influencial on them. Pippen was great in his own right but his impact was far less compared to Erving's.

That said I'm still taking Dr. J. The NBA #'s might be decieving but Dr.J's prime athletic years were spent in the just as competitive ABA.

[Bush4Ever]

People who claim the ABA is a joke are misguided.

The statistics are going to be inflated in the ABA, due to the pace of the game. But the teams and players were on par with the NBA players at the time, so accomplishments and ranks are still valid.

In a series of exhibition games (155 games total), the ABA went 79-76 against the NBA in interleague games.

In the year following the merger, roughly half of the All-star players had ABA roots. The competition was absolutely legitimate.

So, I think it makes sense to adjust his raw statistics from the ABA, but hold his ranks (like leading the league in scoring 3 times), and his hardware (3 MVPs and two playoff MVPs) as they are.

If you do so, Dr. J has 2 rings (1 as a lead player), 4 MVPs, and 2 Playoff MVPs. That's a legit argument against Pippen, who never reached such heights relative to his peers.

[Roundball_Rock]

Dr, J was a basketball revolutionary. Dozens of players after him can point to his style as highly influencial on them. Pippen was great in his own right but his impact was far less compared to Erving's.

Pippen himself greatly admired Dr J. Pippen's influence on the game is underrated. He pioneered the idea of a point forward and look at how many point forwards we have in today's NBA (LeBron, Turk, Odom, et al.). Did any SF ever influence the game as much defensively as Pip did?

All that said, Erving clearly influenced the game more than Pippen. His influence on the game is rivaled by only a handful of players.

Better career: Pippen
Better player: Erving
Greater impact: Erving

Erving won one MVP and finished top 5 in MVP voting five times. Pippen should have been the 1994 MVP but only has one other top 5 finish. Strangely, in 1995 when he led his team in everything he slipped to 7th in the MVP race. This is another example of him being underrated.

On the subject of accolades and voting, Pippen finished 2nd in DPOY voting twice, 3rd once, and 4th twice.

As to the ABA, like the AFL it ultimately failed because it was fielded an inferior product.

[InspiredLebowski]

The ABA was specifically created to force a merger

[Bush4Ever]

As to the ABA, like the AFL it ultimately failed because it was fielded an inferior product.

It may have been "fielded" that way, but the evidence suggests that the ABA was directly on par with the NBA, both in terms of overall talent (even record in interleague games) and elite talent (half of all-stars after merger were NBA players).

His ABA accomplishments, ranks, and hardware should absolute count in this discussion. His ABA statistics should be adjusted for pace, however.

[Waking_Life]

Lol at:

-people saying Julius was at a decline in the NBA
-people underestimating Dr.J as a defender

Maybe Scottie had the better career in the NBA but he's not the better player.

+1


:applause:

[Jenna J]

Not even close....Dr J take this by a wide margin

[hateraid]

On a career basis Pippen's hardware was mostly gained through team success. Not trying to murk him as an individual but his accomplishments greater than Julius were his NBA championships. On an individual acheivement Julius's accomplishments far outweigh Pippen's:

MVP- Dr.J
First team NBA- Dr.J
ASG accolades- Dr.J

Defensively you may give the edge to Pippen but to me it's like saying Deke or Mouring had better careers than Shaq due to defensive acheivements.

This is basing it on strictly NBA accomplishments as well. Minus team success:

Dr.J >> Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

On a career basis Pippen's hardware was mostly gained through team success.

That cuts both ways. He won 6 championships playing with the GOAT but he would have had more individual success and accolades without Jordan.

For 1

[Bush4Ever]

That cuts both ways. He won 6 championships playing with the GOAT but he would have had more individual success and accolades without Jordan.


That is a reasonable possibility, but I might counter that you are confounding Pippen's level of projected performance because Pippen's performance, even in the absence of Jordan, was influenced by Jordan and specifically Pippen guarding Jordan every day in practice.

So you need to remove that component before assessing how Pippen would do without Jordan, because Jordan himself was a critical part of Pippen's maturation as a player, particularly on the defensive side of the ball.

[Fatal9]

Pippen without MJ would have won at least one MVP--he should have in 1994!
Shame he missed time at the start of the season and the Bulls struggled without him during an easy stretch in the schedule. They could have touched 60 wins and had the best record in the conference. I'd say Pippen probably finishes second behind Hakeem still (who is a top 10 player in his prime so no shame here!).

[Roundball_Rock]

So you need to remove that component before assessing how Pippen would do without Jordan, because Jordan himself was a critical part of Pippen's maturation as a player, particularly on the defensive side of the ball.

Let's suppose MJ never came back after 1993. Pippen's prime was from 1992-97. In 1995 he finished 7th in MVP voting, barely behind 6th place Barkley. It is reasonable to say he would have made it to the top 5 if MJ did not return and take away the spotlight from Pippen's fantastic season. What is more intriguing, of course, is 1996-98. The Bulls acquiring Rodman had nothing to do with MJ so it would have happened even if MJ stayed retired. The Bulls won 72, 69, and 62 (on pace for 66 when Pippen played) during this time. It is reasonable to assume that this team without MJ would have won at least one championship (probably two, 1996 and 1997). Would Pip have won the MVP in one of these seasons? He was 5th in 96' and very close to 4th place Hakeem even with MJ playing on his team. We know he was 3rd on a 55 win team. It is pretty likely that he would have won the MVP in 1996. In 1998 he missed almost half the season so that is out. 1997? I doubt the voters would have given him two in a row.


I'd say Pippen probably finishes second behind Hakeem still (who is a top 10 player in his prime so no shame here!).

Perhaps and you are right, Hakeem was great and that was his best season so there is no shame losing to him.

Missing ten games doubly hurt him. He missed enough games to affect his team's seeding (if game 7 against NY is in Chicago they win anyway, regardless of arguably the worst call ever by Hue Hollins in game 5) but not enough to make a dramatic turnaround with him. Let's see he missed 20 games and the team went 8-12 without him. They won 71% of the time with him so that translate to 44-18 over 62 games. If that happened then he would have had a great chance to win the MVP.

[97 bulls]

Dr, J was a basketball revolutionary. Dozens of players after him can point to his style as highly influencial on them. Pippen was great in his own right but his impact was far less compared to Erving's.

That said I'm still taking Dr. J. The NBA #'s might be decieving but Dr.J's prime athletic years were spent in the just as competitive ABA.
dr j was a revolutionary, but alot of great players patern their games after pip.

[Bush4Ever]

Let's suppose MJ never came back after 1993. Pippen's prime was from 1992-97. In 1995 he finished 7th in MVP voting, barely behind 6th place Barkley. It is reasonable to say he would have made it to the top 5 if MJ did not return and take away the spotlight from Pippen's fantastic season. What is more intriguing, of course, is 1996-98. The Bulls acquiring Rodman had nothing to do with MJ so it would have happened even if MJ stayed retired. The Bulls won 72, 69, and 62 (on pace for 66 when Pippen played) during this time. It is reasonable to assume that this team without MJ would have won at least one championship (probably two, 1996 and 1997). Would Pip have won the MVP in one of these seasons? He was 5th in 96' and very close to 4th place Hakeem even with MJ playing on his team. We know he was 3rd on a 55 win team. It is pretty likely that he would have won the MVP in 1996. In 1998 he missed almost half the season so that is out. 1997? I doubt the voters would have given him two in a row.


I am only speaking about Pippen as he matured into his prime, not during MJ's retirement. There is no question Pippen was a top 5 player circa 1994 with or without Jordan, but he might not have aquired the skills (at least to the same degree) prior to that point, if he had never played with MJ, guarded him in practice, etc...

There is no way to prove it one way or the other, but it is interesting to consider.

[Fatal9]

I am only speaking about Pippen as he matured into his prime, not during MJ's retirement. There is no question Pippen was a top 5 player circa 1994 with or without Jordan, but he might not have aquired the skills (at least to the same degree) prior to that point, if he had never played with MJ, guarded him in practice, etc...

There is no way to prove it one way or the other, but it is interesting to consider.
Can we say the same thing about MJ then too? His post game and man to man defense among other things, really didn't improve until around the time Pippen came in.

[Bush4Ever]

Can we say the same thing about MJ then too? His post game and man to man defense among other things, really didn't improve until around the time Pippen came in.

There is absolutely no question Pippen helped, but there is also no question MJ's contributions to Pippen's development were greater than Pippen's contributions to Jordan's development.

His man to man defense was always pretty good, and by most accounts really became exceptional in 1988, when he made all-NBA defense 1st team, led the league in steals, and won defensive player of the years as a guard. In 1988, Pippen was pretty much a non-factor as a player, so I think in terms of individual defense, the vast majority of the foundation for his defense was already there.

[Fatal9]

There is absolutely no question Pippen helped, but there is also no question MJ's contributions to Pippen's development were greater than Pippen's contributions to Jordan's development.

His man to man defense was always pretty good, and by most accounts really became exceptional in 1988, when he made all-NBA defense 1st team, led the league in steals, and won defensive player of the years as a guard. In 1988, Pippen was pretty much a non-factor as a player, so I think in terms of individual defense, the vast majority of the foundation for his defense was already there.
His man to man defense really didn't improve until around '89. Always had quick hands and played passing lanes well but it didn't become exceptional until '89 at the earliest, '90 at the latest. And around that time, Pippen was more than a non-factor.

I really don't care how much who made who better but it is always so one-sided.

[Roundball_Rock]

Perhaps.

I am not saying that MJ made Pippen worse. What I am saying is that MJ dragged Pippen's stats and accolades down. Pippen's detractors love to point to him playing with MJ but they ignore the other side of the coin. If he did not play with MJ, and especially if MJ did not come back, he would have likely done all those things they criticize him for: win a ring as the team leader, win a finals MVP, probably win a regular season MVP as well. They also point to his career stats, which are hurt by him playing until he was 38, but they are also hurt by all those seasons playing with the GOAT. As we saw in 1994 in comparison to 1993 and then directly in 1995 when MJ came back Pippen averaged a lot more points, had a much higher PER without MJ. Prime Pippen would have been the #1 player on practically any other team in the league. On a handful of teams (i.e. with Hakeem or Shaq) he would have been a 1a/1b player in the Magic/Kareem sense rather than a #1/#2 in the Jordan/Pippen sense.

Would Pippen rank higher on the all-time lists without MJ? I think so. You need to win championships as the team leader and a MVP to reach the top tiers. If he won, say, even one championship as the team leader and one MVP combine that with him being the GOAT perimeter defender and he would would easily be top 15 all-time. Right now he is usually top 30 on most people's lists and the highest he ever goes is top 20.

All of this said, I bet if you asked Pippen if he would rather win even 2 championships and 1 MVP and be considered top 15 all-time or win 6 rings, no MVP's and be considered top 30 all-time I am sure he would prefer the latter.


Can we say the same thing about MJ then too?

MJ does. : )

[Bush4Ever]

His man to man defense really didn't improve until around '89. Always had quick hands and played passing lanes well but it didn't become exceptional until '89 at the earliest, '90 at the latest.

Evidence please.

And yes, I know they helped each other. You'd have to be a fool to not see that. But it was not an equal relationship. Jordan helped both the Bulls and Pippen more than Pippen helped the Bulls and Jordan.

That's not a knock on Pippen at all.

[Bush4Ever]

Perhaps.

I am not saying that MJ made Pippen worse. What I am saying is that MJ dragged Pippen's stats and accolades down. Pippen's detractors love to point to him playing with MJ but they ignore the other side of the coin. If he did not play with MJ, and especially if MJ did not come back, he would have likely done all those things they criticize him for: win a ring as the team leader, win a finals MVP, probably win a regular season MVP as well.


Yes, with the skills that Jordan majorly helped Pippen develop.

If you want to account for Jordan's influence, you have to remove all of the influence, good (majorly developing Pippen's skills), and bad (lowering statistical outputs). I'm not sure if you remove all of the influence, that Pippen is doing much better than his 1994 season, although I will fully admit it is possible. I just don't think you can know.

By the way, I like Pippen tons. Inside my top 20 all-time easily.

[Fatal9]

Evidence please.
Watching the freaking games maybe :confusedshrug:

[Bush4Ever]

Watching the freaking games maybe :confusedshrug:

I've watched "the freaking games".

I come out to a fairly different conclusion. Circa 1988, MJ's defense was exceptional in all aspects. That is my conclusion.

Do you have any real evidence? A quote from a coach, teammate, commentator, etc...that speaks to your point? Anything like that?

[Shepseskaf]

On a career basis Pippen's hardware was mostly gained through team success. Not trying to murk him as an individual but his accomplishments greater than Julius were his NBA championships. On an individual acheivement Julius's accomplishments far outweigh Pippen's
:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah we will never know what Pip would have been without MJ but speculating about "what if's" is part of what makes posting at a place like ISH fun. :cheers: The reason I talk about removing MJ when assessing Pippen is that his production was a lot better than people think it was because MJ deflated his stats. For instance, in the Pippen vs. LeBron thread a lot of people brought up his scoring but overlooked that his scoring was hindered by Jordan. In order to properly assess his production you have to consider what it would have been without MJ. For instance, he was in the top 10 in PER only twice (without MJ). Without MJ he was the best perimeter player in PER. So if you are looking at his PER you can to adjust for the deflation MJ caused. He was not an ordinary 20-21 PER player.

MVP voting is heavily influenced by team performance. This is why Pippen slipped from 3rd to 7th from 1994 to 1995, even though his numbers were practically the same and before MJ came back were identical (22.0 ppg vs. 21.9 ppg, 8.7 rpg both times, etc.). If Pippen led a team to the best record, i.e. the 96' Bulls, I believe he would have brought home a MVP.

I agree that MJ helped Pippen more than Pippen helped MJ if you are talking about it in the conventional sense of working together to improve each others game. However, in a very significant way Pippen helped MJ more than vice versa. MJ is the consensus GOAT because he has 6 rings and was involved in two three peats. Without Pippen MJ probably would have won a few championships (assuming he stayed in Chicago. Without Pippen his first few seasons would have been like KG in Minnesota and MJ may have bolted in, say, 1990) because they would have gotten a solid second option. However, take away Pip and there are no three peats. The 92', 96', 97' Bulls would probably win without Pippen assuming they got a good second player. I don't think the 91', 93', and 98' Bulls win without the dynamic duo, though. MJ would be in the first tier of legends even with 2, 3, or 4 championships. However, he would not be the consensus GOAT. There would be more Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, and Bird partisans. MJ would be "just" one of the guys in the discussion.

One other thing I forgot to mention is playing with MJ did make Pippen a lot more famous. Just look at this board. There have been half a dozen Pippen threads in the past 3-4 days. This is astonishing for a retired player! I think only MJ is talked about more than Pip here when it comes to retired players. Pippen was 3rd in endorsements at the peak of his popularity, was on Leno, etc. Playing on the most popular team (due to MJ of course) gave the added benefit of millions of fans have a special place in their basketball hearts for Pippen. If he won rings with, say, the Duncan Spurs this would not be the case.

I agree. He is consensus top 30 but when you factor in defense, which is half the game, and winning he should be top 20. The guy made the playoffs 16 straight seasons and never lost with HCA. Even when he was old, way past his prime and averaging only 10-11 ppg in Portland he was still very important to the W-L column. His team's winning percentage slipped 22% without him in 2002. This is old man Pippen! This tells you have valuable he was to the W-L column during his prime. He had something that went beyond the box score. A big part of it was leadership. Phil Jackson has said Pip was a coach on the floor and as good a leader as Jordan. He knew how to keep team morale up and how to make sure everyone was involved in the offense. If someone was on a cold streak he would make sure to get them an easy shot. He would also do all the little things needed to win. Remember when he jumped out of bounds to grab a loose ball and called time-out in midair? The NBA had to change the rule on that because of it. He also took 5 charges in one game in the 98' NBA finals and injured his back--and killed his finals MVP chances. What did he do when he came back? Take charges again for the sake of the team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

This is easily Dr. J. Sorry, but Dr. J changed the game, and was considered by many to be the best player in the world at a time when KAJ was peaking (early-mid 70's).

[Showtime]

The ABA was a joke.

Myth. Near the end, it wasn't that great, but it was still professional basketball with the ABA competing for talent and during it's history, it had several examples of being able to grab top talent away from the NBA. It wasn't a joke (some compare it to the D-league which is totally false), and was a progressive league that had talented players and pushed the game into the modern age with some of it's major changes to the game.


If we are going to go outside the NBA let's look at Pippen winning two gold medals. On the original Dream Team it was he, not John Stockton or Magic Johnson, who led the team in assists (it shows what prime Pippen could do as far as assists go outside the triangle offense), and was the second best player on the team (behind MJ of course) according to the coach of the team, Chuck Daly.

So you are comparing the Dream Team's competition in international play to that of the ABA? C'mon, you can't be serious with comparing Pippen's Olympic play with Erving's ABA career. I'm tired of morons thinking the NBA was the be-all end-all of pro basketball.


We should since defense is half the game but a lot of people only look at scoring. If you factor in defense then Pippen is top 20 all-time.

Erving wasn't a scrub on defense, and his offensive production was better than Pippen's. He took a fat sh!t on most people, including Bobby Jones' elite defense in '76. What Pippen has on defense is a legitimate point, (and it vaults Pippen in top SF discussions) but so is what Erving has on him on offense. Overall, Erving was the superior player. That doesn't take anything away from Pip being one of the best forwards of all time though.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ "defense is half the game" trolls. :oldlol:

Half the game in terms of the amount of time spent on defense, but not half the game in terms of the impact one player can have on a game. A player can have much more impact on a game offensively than defensively, and the only real exceptions are truly elite defensive centers like Hakeem/Russell etc. Even for elite perimeter defenders, defense comprises about 30-35% of their total impact at most.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Can we say the same thing about MJ then too? His post game and man to man defense among other things, really didn't improve until around the time Pippen came in.

LMAO :oldlol:

Fatal9, you're reaching epic levels of trolling suggesting that Pippen taught Jordan man defense (it was actually the other way around if you read some books) and a post game, where Pippen never excelled at all while MJ was the best non-big post player in history. :oldlol:

[kshutts1]

I think it's funny that the vast majority of people quote team record, championships, etc, when it comes to who the best player is, MVP, etc...

but when we discuss Pippen, his teams' success is a detriment to him as a player... people try to take that away from him. Can you not see that his teams were successful largely BECAUSE of him and MJ? I mean... his stats may not be there, but he was such a team player that he sacrificed stats for wins... that, in my books, is what makes him so phenomenal. He had the talent, he showed that here and there... but he was willing to take a backseat, willing to focus on defense, and leading the team.... He is the ultimate perimeter team player, and it is SO difficult to compare him to "top dogs" that want to be top dog, whether they win or not.

[97 bulls]

lol @ "defense is half the game" trolls. :oldlol:

Half the game in terms of the amount of time spent on defense, but not half the game in terms of the impact one player can have on a game. A player can have much more impact on a game offensively than defensively, and the only real exceptions are truly elite defensive centers like Hakeem/Russell etc. Even for elite perimeter defenders, defense comprises about 30-35% of their total impact at most.
typical person that doesnt follow basketball. how many times has an offensive minded team won anything? in any sport? defense wins championships son. thats always been what its about rather you like it or not. and i dont know how you arrive at this defense is only worth 30-35% of the game nonsense. you dont know what your talking about. rookie

[Roundball_Rock]

lol @ "defense is half the game" trolls. :oldlol:

Half the game in terms of the amount of time spent on defense, but not half the game in terms of the impact one player can have on a game. A player can have much more impact on a game offensively than defensively, and the only real exceptions are truly elite defensive centers like Hakeem/Russell etc. Even for elite perimeter defenders, defense comprises about 30-35% of their total impact at most.


In this corner OldSchoolBBall. In the other, NBA legend Reggie Miller:


I walked up to each one of them and asked the question.

If you could be any other player here who would it be?

It was a question I'd asked 12 years ago to Dream Team III: Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Shaq.

Their answers lent insight into which players they respected, whose game they feared. Back then Scottie Pippen's name came up the most. Five out of the 12 players on that team wanted to be, even if for one game, Jordan's Green Hornet. When asked, "Why Pip?" it was Miller who explained it best: "Because Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game."

I think I will go with Reggie. :oldlol:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/090216

Showtime, I am merely saying if we are going to look outside the NBA then we need to factor in all non-NBA play. Pippen leading the Dream Team in assists despite playing with Magic and Stockton does not mean anything? The triangle deflated his assist numbers and the Dream Team run proved it. Prime Pippen outside the triangle would be a 22/9/9-10 guy.

I agree that Erving was better than Pippen.

[97 bulls]

I think it's funny that the vast majority of people quote team record, championships, etc, when it comes to who the best player is, MVP, etc...

but when we discuss Pippen, his teams' success is a detriment to him as a player... people try to take that away from him. Can you not see that his teams were successful largely BECAUSE of him and MJ? I mean... his stats may not be there, but he was such a team player that he sacrificed stats for wins... that, in my books, is what makes him so phenomenal. He had the talent, he showed that here and there... but he was willing to take a backseat, willing to focus on defense, and leading the team.... He is the ultimate perimeter team player, and it is SO difficult to compare him to "top dogs" that want to be top dog, whether they win or not.
this just shows the greatness of pippen. the fact is that he is comaparable to players that were career number 1 options. and just as good stat wise when all things are factored in.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think it's funny that the vast majority of people quote team record, championships, etc, when it comes to who the best player is, MVP, etc...

but when we discuss Pippen, his teams' success is a detriment to him as a player... people try to take that away from him. Can you not see that his teams were successful largely BECAUSE of him and MJ? I mean... his stats may not be there, but he was such a team player that he sacrificed stats for wins... that, in my books, is what makes him so phenomenal. He had the talent, he showed that here and there... but he was willing to take a backseat, willing to focus on defense, and leading the team.... He is the ultimate perimeter team player, and it is SO difficult to compare him to "top dogs" that want to be top dog, whether they win or not.

:applause:

Pippen played in the 98' playoffs with two herniated risks, jeopardizing his chance at getting a big contract in free agency. He injured his back due to taking so many charges--5 in one game--in the 98' NBA finals (where he dominated defensively). What did he do? He still played.

You are correct about him sacrificing stats for wins. He was the rare superstar to do that yet the fact that he would not jack up 25 shots a game so he could get 40 points while his team lost is held against him by many.


d i dont know how you arrive at this defense is only worth 30-35% of the game nonsense. you dont know what your talking about

OldschoolBBall is an adherent of the church of centers. Notice how great centers did this season btw? Howard is in the finals but Yao went out in the second round and the rest of the top 5 centers all missed the playoffs. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

this just shows the greatness of pippen. the fact is that he is comaparable to players that were career number 1 options. and just as good stat wise when all things are factored in.

Excellent point! :applause:

[Showtime]

Showtime, I am merely saying if we are going to look outside the NBA then we need to factor in all non-NBA play.

Which is my point. You think there is NBA play, and then everything else, as if nothing can equate. ABA in the 70's isn't the same in relation to NBA ball as international play during the Dream Team's time.


Pippen leading the Dream Team in assists despite playing with Magic and Stockton does not mean anything?

It doesn't mean much considering the level of talent on that team and the level of talent of their competition. It literally wasn't even fair. It doesn't compare to the ABA.

[97 bulls]

In this corner OldSchoolBBall. In the other, NBA legend Reggie Miller:



I think I will go with Reggie. :oldlol:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/090216

Showtime, I am merely saying if we are going to look outside the NBA then we need to factor in all non-NBA play. Pippen leading the Dream Team in assists despite playing with Magic and Stockton does not mean anything? The triangle deflated his assist numbers and the Dream Team run proved it. Prime Pippen outside the triangle would be a 22/9/9-10 guy.

I agree that Erving was better than Pippen.
i wonder why magic or stockton didnt lead in assists if it was no big deal. well stock was hurt i believe. but how bout bird he was supposed to be a better passer than pip. fact is that pip thrived in the open court.

[kshutts1]

Which is my point. You think there is NBA play, and then everything else, as if nothing can equate. ABA in the 70's isn't the same in relation to NBA ball as international play during the Dream Team's time.



It doesn't mean much considering the level of talent on that team and the level of talent of their competition. It literally wasn't even fair. It doesn't compare to the ABA.
He wasn't making a competition comparison, but rather a teammate comparison.

Pippen was on the same team as arguably the two greatest assist men EVER and "out-assisted" them. I believe that is ALL he means. It was brought up because "non NBA" (notice I didn't say INFERIOR TO nba) play was brought up.

It wasn't an attempt to equate ABA ball to the international competition.

[Showtime]

Pippen was on the same team as arguably the two greatest assist men EVER and "out-assisted" them. I believe that is ALL he means. It was brought up because "non NBA" (notice I didn't say INFERIOR TO nba) play was brought up.

And competition matters in what kinds of shots are available and talent level matters in how they finish. If they are getting easy buckets all night and dominating with superior talent, then of course Pippen is going to put up assists as a distributer. Let's not act like he's Chris Paul who has to carry an entire team on his back against quality teams. They were rolling over people like a NBA team against high school guys.


It wasn't an attempt to equate ABA ball to the international competition.
But as I said, level of competition effects performances. The worse the opponent, the easier it is to produce and win. So Pippen's numbers on the dream team, while impressive in their own right, has to be taken into context with the guys he was passing to and what shots they had against vastly inferior squads.

[Roundball_Rock]

And competition matters in what kinds of shots are available and talent level matters in how they finish. If they are getting easy buckets all night and dominating with superior talent, then of course Pippen is going to put up assists as a distributer.

Yes, but Magic, Stockton, and Bird played against the same competition and had the same teammates but put up less assists than Pippen. As KShutts said, they were probably the two best assist men ever.

[Indian guy]

Pippen was on the same team as arguably the two greatest assist men EVER and "out-assisted" them.

Good Lord. This myth still going on? Stockton barely played in the '92 Olympics. He only participated in 4 of the 8 games, never started and hardly got any playing time due to his injury. The PG time was mostly split between Magic, Pippen and a little of MJ. Magic averaged 5.5 apg to Pippen's 5.9, in FAR LESS playing time due to injury issues of his own. He even sat out a couple of games.

Pippen being the leading assist man on the Dream Team means NOTHING. He played the most # of minutes at PG on that team due to injuries to Magic and Stockton.

[Roundball_Rock]

Put up the mpg stats...

Magic played 6 games, Pippen 8. That has no impact on assist per game averages. Moreover, Magic started 5 of this 6 games while Pippen started only 3 of the 8 games. Yet the bench guy played far more minutes according to you?
Magic put up roughly the same points per game (9.0 for Pip and 8.0 for Magic), grabbed slightly more rebounds (2.3 to 2.1). Magic and Pippen were roughly equivalent at rebounding at that time (both were 7 rpg guys in 1991) and similar in scoring (Magic averaged 19.4 ppg in 1991, Pippen 17.8 in 1991 and 21.0 in 1992) yet supposedly Magic somehow managed to outrebound and score roughly as much as Pippen despite playing only a fraction of the time Pippen did?

[Fatal9]

Fatal9, you're reaching epic levels of trolling suggesting that Pippen taught Jordan man defense (it was actually the other way around if you read some books) and a post game, where Pippen never excelled at all while MJ was the best non-big post player in history.
:confusedshrug:

I never said he "taught" him any of those things. Just said perhaps he improved his abilities in those areas. I can see Pippen defending Jordan in the post helping MJ immensely in terms of getting comfortable against great defenders with long arms. What I said is no more speculative than those who say "Jordan made Pippen", which is ridiculous. LOL at the idea of me trolling against one of my favorite players ever (check the avatar, the tributes etc etc). I just don't throw Pippen under the bus so quickly because I like him just as much as a player as I do MJ.

[Abraham Lincoln]

:confusedshrug:

I never said he "taught" him any of those things. Just said perhaps he improved his abilities in those areas. I can see Pippen defending Jordan in the post helping MJ immensely in terms of getting comfortable against great defenders with long arms. What I said is no more speculative than those who say "Jordan made Pippen", which is ridiculous. LOL at the idea of me trolling against one of my favorite players ever (check the avatar, the tributes etc etc). I just don't throw Pippen under the bus so quickly because I like him just as much as a player as I do MJ.
http://images-cdn01.associatedcontent.com/image/A5979/59796/300_59796.jpg

[kshutts1]

Put up the mpg stats...

Magic played 6 games, Pippen 8. That has no impact on assist per game averages. Moreover, Magic started 5 of this 6 games while Pippen started only 3 of the 8 games. Yet the bench guy played far more minutes according to you?
Magic put up roughly the same points per game (9.0 for Pip and 8.0 for Magic), grabbed slightly more rebounds (2.3 to 2.1). Magic and Pippen were roughly equivalent at rebounding at that time (both were 7 rpg guys in 1991) and similar in scoring (Magic averaged 19.4 ppg in 1991, Pippen 17.8 in 1991 and 21.0 in 1992) yet supposedly Magic somehow managed to outrebound and score roughly as much as Pippen despite playing only a fraction of the time Pippen did?

Regardless of playing time distribution, the thread is on a tangent right now.

Let's do this... if, knowing what we know now, a draft was held today, and your team had to choose between prime Pippen and prime Dr. J, who would you choose?

I would choose Pippen. He is my favorite player, so maybe a bias is in there, but his ability to change games with defense as well as offense, lead on the court, etc, etc...

[Indian guy]

Put up the mpg stats...

I'm mostly going on my memory of the games here(since I can't find there mpg stats on the net). Something you can't, obviously, because you've continued to hammer on Pippen averaging more assists than Stockton...clearly clueless about Stockton barely stepping foot on the court.

[97 bulls]

Put up the mpg stats...

Magic played 6 games, Pippen 8. That has no impact on assist per game averages. Moreover, Magic started 5 of this 6 games while Pippen started only 3 of the 8 games. Yet the bench guy played far more minutes according to you?
Magic put up roughly the same points per game (9.0 for Pip and 8.0 for Magic), grabbed slightly more rebounds (2.3 to 2.1). Magic and Pippen were roughly equivalent at rebounding at that time (both were 7 rpg guys in 1991) and similar in scoring (Magic averaged 19.4 ppg in 1991, Pippen 17.8 in 1991 and 21.0 in 1992) yet supposedly Magic somehow managed to outrebound and score roughly as much as Pippen despite playing only a fraction of the time Pippen did?
the fact is that someone stated that pip was a system player not a team player(which is idiotic) and i believe roundball was showing that pip thrived in an uptempo style. not that he was a better guard than magic or stockton but that he could lead a great team if given the chance which he never had. i mean if he was doing a bad job, im sure daly wouldve done something else.

[Indian guy]

and i believe roundball was showing that pip thrived in an uptempo style.

Roundball thinks Pippen, the guy who's career high in assists is 7 and someone who never came close to touching that number again, would average 9-10 apg today.

This is the type of ignorance we're dealing with. This guy has clearly never watched Pippen play and is clueless aboout his abilities as a basketball player.

[1987_Lakers]

I'd give Dr. J the slight advantage.

[Roundball_Rock]

Use common sense. Player X started five of six games, Player Y came off the bench five times in eight games. Even if some of this was simply due to respect for Magic (MJ was the only player to start every game and Magic was the only other player to start a majority of games) the fact that his scoring and rebounding numbers were similar to Pippen strongly suggests that they played a similar amount of minutes.

Exactly, 97_Bulls. Pippen's best assist season was 7.0 in the triangle, which is a record that still stands. If you took prime Pippen out the triangle he would average probably at last 9 assists. In fact, at age 36 he averaged as many assists per 36 minutes as he did in 1992 when he was 26. Why? He was playing PG in Portland. Put prime Pippen in that offense and he easily gets to 9 at least. He would be a 25/9/9 player in the current Cavs' offense imo.

[Fatal9]

Roundball thinks Pippen, the guy who's career high in assists is 7 and someone who never came close to touching that number again, would average 9-10 apg today.

This is the type of ignorance we're dealing with. This guy has clearly never watched Pippen play and is clueless aboout his abilities as a basketball player.
He averaged 6.3 the following year and remained around 6 for the rest of his Bulls years. Pretty close to 7 if you ask me. Very impressive considering even Jordan never got 6 under the triangle.

[97 bulls]

I'd give Dr. J the slight advantage.
sup 87

[Da_Realist]

He averaged 6.3 the following year and remained around 6 for the rest of his Bulls years. Pretty close to 7 if you ask me. Very impressive considering even Jordan never got 6 under the triangle.


Wrong. Jordan averaged 6.3 asts in 1990 and 6.1 asts in 1992.

Pretty tough to score 30+ points and average that many assists so it's just a little more impressive than Pippen averaging slightly higher. In fact, MJ is the only one player in the history of the game that has ever averaged 30+ points and 5+ asts.

[Indian guy]

He averaged 6.3 the following year

Which is nearly 60 less assists in a full season from the prior year. So not "pretty much 7", no. And again, Pippen didn't even average 6 apg in his final 5 seasons as a Bull. Not even w/ MJ playing baseball. The guy had very good court vision and thrived in the open court...but he simply was not the playmaker the ignorant are making him out to be in this thread. I can't even imagine how clueless you have to be about Pippen's abilities as a basketball player to think he had 9-10 apg capabilities. Only the very elite playmakers have the ability to put up 9-10 apg.


Very impressive considering even Jordan never got 6 under the triangle.

He did twice under Phil - 1990 & 1992. MJ's role was also different from Pippen's.

[Showtime]

In fact, MJ is the only one player in the history of the game that has ever averaged 30+ points and 5+ asts.
WTF? Jerry West, Wilt, Oscar, Tiny, Rick Barry, McGrady, Kobe, and that's just off the top of my head.

[Indian guy]

WTF? Jerry West, Wilt, Oscar, Tiny, Rick Barry, and that's just off the top of my head.

LOL, yeah. I think he could be talking career averages. 30/5 is not very uncommon. LeBron, Kobe, AI & Wade have all done it recently.

[Roundball_Rock]

Roundball thinks Pippen, the guy who's career high in assists is 7 and someone who never came close to touching that number again, would average 9-10 apg today.


This is the type of ignorance we're dealing with. This guy has clearly never watched Pippen play and is clueless aboout his abilities as a basketball player.

Self-ownage! :roll: At age 36 he averaged as many assists per 36 minutes as he did in 1992 at age 26. Did he suddenly learn to pass? Did his playmaking ability suddenly increase? Was he a better player at age 36 than when he was 26? It was because he was playing PG outside the triangle.

[QUOTE]The Tempestuous Trail Blazers have had so many problems in recent years that a two-game losing streak last week was enough to set off alarms. "Are your backs against the wall?" a writer asked coach Maurice Cheeks last Friday, the morning after his Blazers had scored only 60 points in a season-worst 28-point loss to the visiting 76ers. "What are you talking about?" replied Cheeks. "We're 39-22! We're fourth in the West!"

The Blazers are in such a surprisingly strong position because Cheeks has rejuvenated 37-year-old Scottie Pippen by converting him into a high-energy point guard. Last Saturday, Pippen rescued the Blazers from their mini-crisis by playing help defense, pushing the tempo and feeding Rasheed Wallace inside in the first five minutes to set the tone for Portland's 94-80 win over Indiana. "He has six rings," center Dale Davis says of Pippen. "Who better to lead us?"

Cheeks was hoping to go easy this season on Pippen, who started slowly after undergoing minor knee surgery last summer. But when the Blazers staggered to a 3-6 start, Cheeks made Michael Jordan's former lieutenant the point man. The Blazers have been on a 37-16 roll since.

Pippen paid similar dividends when Cheeks turned him into a point guard during the second half of last season. While the position is still relatively new to Pippen

[Showtime]

LOL, yeah. I think he could be talking career averages. 30/5 is not very uncommon. LeBron, Kobe, AI & Wade have all done it recently.
yeah, but he said "that has ever averaged", not career average. McGrady did it too, and I forgot about AI and Wade doing it. There's plenty of players who have accomplished that for a season average.

[Da_Realist]

WTF? Jerry West, Wilt, Oscar, Tiny, Rick Barry, McGrady, Kobe, and that's just off the top of my head.

I meant career numbers.

[Roundball_Rock]

Notice how IG is dodging the fact that 36 year old Pippen (outside the triangle) was as effective in producing assists as 26 year old Pippen (inside the triangle)? I guess Pip finally learned how to be a good playmaker then. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Which is nearly 60 less assists in a full season from the prior year. So not "pretty much 7", no. And again, Pippen didn't even average 6 apg in his final 5 seasons as a Bull. Not even w/ MJ playing baseball. The guy had very good court vision and thrived in the open court...but he simply was not the playmaker the ignorant are making him out to be in this thread. I can't even imagine how clueless you have to be about Pippen's abilities as a basketball player to think he had 9-10 apg capabilities. Only the very elite playmakers have the ability to put up 9-10 apg.



He did twice under Phil - 1990 & 1992. MJ's role was also different from Pippen's.
but the triangle doesnt allow for anyone to dominate the ball. its more cutting with everyone having the opportunity to score. thats why you dont need a true pg in this offense. so while pip may not have been able to be a 10 assists per year guy, i see him being able to get around 7-8 prime.

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly. If prime Pippen averaged 7.0 in the triangle common sense says he would average more outside it. Would he average 10? No but he would likely have been in the 8-9 range.

[97 bulls]

Exactly. If prime Pippen averaged 7.0 in the triangle common sense says he would average more outside it. Would he average 10? No but he would likely have been in the 8-9 range.
good point, that was 7 in the triangle. and i see no reason that his assists dont go up in an uptempo system

[Indian guy]

Self-ownage! :roll: At age 36 he averaged as many assists per 36 minutes as he did in 1992 at age 26.

1 season out of 12 at his 1992 pace has definitely convinced me that Pippen could be a 9-10 apg today :rolleyes:. Way to go :oldlol:

You need to try harder man. How exactly does this help your case of Pippen being a 9-10 apg guy outside the triangle? I watched those Blazer teams a ton. Pippen was doing less traditional PG work in that offense then he ever did under the triangle. He was even more of a facilitator on that loaded but unstabilized Blazer team. He would merely tell guys where to go and then dump it to them. He wasn't doing any real playmaking that 9-10 apg guys do. He was merely the PG of a VERY talented team.

Once again, out of 12 seasons since '92 Pippen produced assists at that rate only ONCE. How's that supposed to convince me of his 9-10 apg capabilities? I've seen and reseen the guy's career countless times. He had nowhere close to the skills required to average that many apg. On an umtempo team loaded with talent where he's the primarly ball handler I can see him averaging 7-7.5 apg, but no more than that. His career fully backs this up.

[Indian guy]

Exactly. If prime Pippen averaged 7.0 in the triangle common sense says he would average more outside it. Would he average 10? No but he would likely have been in the 8-9 range.

Backtracking much? :oldlol:. It's gone from 9-10 to definitely not 10 but 8-9 now? :oldlol:

He wouldn't even average that much. Didn't have the skills for it. The 90-92 Bulls were very athletic, ran quite a bit and simply were not as triangle-dominant as the 2nd 3peat team. Pippen was the Bulls' primary ball handler. Especially in transition situations. If 6-7 apg is the best he could do on those teams, then that's where he's going to be on other teams too.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah and his time as PG in Portland backs this up. If a 36 year old Pippen could average 6.5 assists over 36 minutes (the same as 26 year old Pippen) outside the triangle imagine what prime Pippen would do in the triangle. I don't think he would average 9 every season but is it really a stretch to think that a guy who averaged 7.0 in the triangle as his career high could not reach 9.0 outside it? This is largely hypothetical, although common sense clearly leans in one direction...Since P. Jackson teams are the ones which fully use the triangle it is hard to find an example of a passing player leaving the offense in his prime. Pippen himself went to Houston and averaged the same number of assists as he did in Chicago, but we know the chemistry and other problems that existed there and Pip was 33 and past his prime by then. The only decent example we have is BJ Armstrong, who left the Bulls when he was 27. He averaged 3.0 assists in his last season with the Bulls but shot up to 4.9 apg when he went to Golden State. What is more striking is that he did it while playing less minutes. If you look at his per 36 minute averages he averaged 3.4 in Chicago and jumped to 6.4 in Golden State.

[Roundball_Rock]

1 season out of 12 at his 1992 pace has definitely convinced me that Pippen could be a 9-10 apg today :rolleyes:. Way to go :oldlol:

Yeah because that is just some random season, right? :oldlol: He played PG in that season and the following season.


On an umtempo team loaded with talent where he's the primarly ball handler I can see him averaging 7-7.5 apg

So according to this self-proclaimed expert the triangle reduces a primary ball handling player's assists by either 0.0 or at most 0.5. :roll: MJ's assists fell from 8.0 to 6.3 when Jackson introduced the triangle.

[Indian guy]

but is it really a stretch to think that a guy who averaged 7.0 in the triangle as his career high could not reach 9.0 outside it?

It absolutely should be for anyone who has seen Pippen play. He simply did not have the playmaking skills to average 9 apg. You keep using his 1992 numbers as if that was the norm, but it was the exception. He never came close to that # again. You can't just take a player's career high under the triangle and raise it by 2-3 digits outside of it.

Armstrong's example is bogus. His apg were 4 in 93-94, the only season where the Bulls asked him to play like a PG. By next season the Bulls had acquired 2 more ball handlers in Harper & Kerr, because they couldn't stand BJ's selfishness at PG. He was no longer asked to be a playmaker and thus his assists went down completely. Especially after MJ's arrival. BJ's apg went up in GS because he was 1) asked to be a playmaker again 2) was GS's main playmaker due to Hardaway's injuries(who only played 52 games & started only 18 as opposed BJ playing all 82 and starting 64). Comparing BJ's 95-96 season to his 93-94 in Chicago makes a lot more sense. The difference is of only 1 apg, and difference in per 36 is big because of the ridiculous pace GS played at.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He averaged 6.3 the following year and remained around 6 for the rest of his Bulls years. Pretty close to 7 if you ask me. Very impressive considering even Jordan never got 6 under the triangle.

Jordan had 6.3 apg in 1990 under the triangle and 6.1 apg in 1992.

[Indian guy]

He played PG in that season and the following season.

He also played PG from 93-98. Why couldn't he sniff 7 apg again? Maybe, just maybe, you're making too much of his '92 season?


MJ's assists fell from 8.0 to 6.3 when Jackson introduced the triangle.

Anyone with half a clue about NBA history knows that MJ became the Bulls' PG the final 25-30 games of the 88-89 season. And he was VERY ball dominant. He finished that stretch as PG averaging nearly 10 apg! His apg jumped from mid-6's to 8! Guess how many apg he averaged the following season under Phil while playing under the triangle? The same amount(6.3) as he did pre-becoming the PG.

[Fatal9]

Jordan had 6.3 apg in 1990 under the triangle and 6.1 apg in 1992.
Looked at 36 minutes instead I think, knew there was something fishy in saying that. Still the point remains.

:oldlol: at the thought of Pippen not averaging 8-9 assists in an uptempo and more ball dominant type of offense. Wow, you can't be this irrational right?

[EllEffEll]

You kids go ahead and geek out on the stats.

Guys like Pippen are there to give guys like Dr. J the rock and GTF outta the way.

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL @ someone thinking that Pippen would have averaged 8-9 apg outside the triangle. :oldlol:

Pippen was, as Indian Guy said, a system player. A lot of his assists came off of passes to Jordan, a dominant scorer, and out of the player movement within the system. He was a very smart offensive player, so it worked well for him. But acting like he could throw up 8-9 apg in a more free-flowing system with himself as the focus is absurd. He was nowhere near dominant enough as a scorer OR passer to think that he could be a playmaker on that level. Especially not playing as players (even stars like MJ and Bird) did back then (i.e., not having the ball in his hands for 15 seconds every possession). Best case scenario is like 6-7 apg for Pippen regularly, same as he averaged; the lack of the system and extra defensive attention would balance out his extra opportunities.

[Roundball_Rock]

He also played PG from 93-98.

:roll:


at the thought of Pippen not averaging 8-9 assists in an uptempo and more ball dominant type of offense. Wow, you can't be this irrational right?

Consider the sources: the usual suspects who always diminish the "clear GOAT's" teammates.

[Indian guy]

But acting like he could throw up 8-9 apg in a more free-flowing system with himself as the focus is absurd. He was nowhere near dominant enough as a scorer OR passer to think that he could be a playmaker on that level. Especially not playing as players (even stars like MJ and Bird) did back then (i.e., not having the ball in his hands for 15 seconds every possession). Best case scenario is like 6-7 apg for Pippen regularly, same as he averaged; the lack of the system and extra defensive attention would balance out his extra opportunities.

Perfectly put.

To me anyone who thinks Pippen can put up 8-9 apg simply never watched him play, period.

[eliteballer]

Look. Pippen was awesome, but they don't exaggerate when they say Dr J. was Jordan before Jordan. Dude was on a PEDESTAL. In the 70's and early 80's he was a star on the level that guys like Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Bird reached. Pippen isnt on that level.

[Da_Realist]

You kids go ahead and geek out on the stats.

Guys like Pippen are there to give guys like Dr. J the rock and GTF outta the way.

My thoughts exactly.

[Duncan21formvp]

Dr J was clearly better.

For those saying Pippen had the greater career, then I guess Tony Parker had a greater career than Charles Barkley as well.

[chitownsfinest]

If I need a player to start my franchise with, I take Dr. J.

If I need a legit second option/sidekick to aid my first option and do all the little things, I take Scottie.

Simple as that

[L.Kizzle]

He did decline when he played against real comp.

Dr. J's last year in the ABA: 29.3 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.5 spg, 1.9 bpg
Dr. J the following year in the NBA: 21.6 pgg, 8.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.9 apg, 1.4 bpg

His stats were down roughly 25% across the board when he moved up to the NBA.
FAIL.


Julius did not decline, he came to the Philadelphia 76ers, a team that featured previous ABA MVP George McGinnis, All-Star Doug Collins, future All-Star World B. Free and Daryl Dawkins.

[RocketGreatness]

As the 1st option on the team? Dr. J Easily.
As the 2nd fidle of the team? Scottish Pippen, since he's arguably the greatest 2nd fiddle to ever play the game.

That being said, It also might depend on what system your team runs as well. People don't realize that Dr. J's stats were inflated due to playing in the ABA. However, you cannot deny what he accomplished in the NBA.

[L.Kizzle]

As the 1st option on the team? Dr. J Easily.
As the 2nd fidle of the team? Scottish Pippen, since he's arguably the greatest 2nd fiddle to ever play the game.

That being said, It also might depend on what system your team runs as well. People don't realize that Dr. J's stats were inflated due to playing in the ABA. However, you cannot deny what he accomplished in the NBA.
^ Read my above post. So I guess Dr. J declined and George Gervin got so much better when he came to the NBA?

[L.Kizzle]

T-Mac only fans don't know their history. So No, I am not going to read your post.

I still said Dr. J was better so Don't whine.
This not about Doc being better, we all know that (even you) it's about his so called decline. Homie didn't decline, he came to a decent team and put them over the top.

[97 bulls]

It absolutely should be for anyone who has seen Pippen play. He simply did not have the playmaking skills to average 9 apg. You keep using his 1992 numbers as if that was the norm, but it was the exception. He never came close to that # again. You can't just take a player's career high under the triangle and raise it by 2-3 digits outside of it.

Armstrong's example is bogus. His apg were 4 in 93-94, the only season where the Bulls asked him to play like a PG. By next season the Bulls had acquired 2 more ball handlers in Harper & Kerr, because they couldn't stand BJ's selfishness at PG. He was no longer asked to be a playmaker and thus his assists went down completely. Especially after MJ's arrival. BJ's apg went up in GS because he was 1) asked to be a playmaker again 2) was GS's main playmaker due to Hardaway's injuries(who only played 52 games & started only 18 as opposed BJ playing all 82 and starting 64). Comparing BJ's 95-96 season to his 93-94 in Chicago makes a lot more sense. The difference is of only 1 apg, and difference in per 36 is big because of the ridiculous pace GS played at.

it seems like your being hypocritical indian guy. first, you dismiss pippens ability to average more assists by saying that he didnt have the skills and that the trangle and him playing behind jordan didnt hinder him. then you say that bj armstrongs assist went up cuz of the pace he played in in GS and his being allowed to be a playmaker. now either your saying armstrong was a better playmaker than pip or you misspoke. cuz the argument you used for armsrtong is the sme argument being used for pip.

not to mention bj armstrong was never selfish. and was never never asked to be a pg in the sense of being a playmaker/facilitator for the bulls. even after jordan retired the bulls never deviated from the triangle.he was always a better shooting derick fisher.

[97 bulls]

Look. Pippen was awesome, but they don't exaggerate when they say Dr J. was Jordan before Jordan. Dude was on a PEDESTAL. In the 70's and early 80's he was a star on the level that guys like Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Bird reached. Pippen isnt on that level.
while dr j was great, he was loved because of style the fro the dunks. thats what made dr j.truth is, he put up slightly better better stats than pip did even though pip played in a system and as a number 2 option in a slower paced league. how can people deny that?

[EllEffEll]

while dr j was great, he was loved because of style the fro the dunks. thats what made dr j.truth is, he put up slightly better better stats than pip did even though pip played in a system and as a number 2 option in a slower paced league. how can people deny that?

What made Dr. J great was his ability to create and score in so many different situations. They would literally give him the ball and all four other players would form a box on the opposite side of the key. No play, not even the pretense of a play, just Julius, the ball and the other team's defenders. He's going to the rack. Try to stop him. He was also incredible in the open court. One of the scariest players ever with the ball in his hands.

Game 7 of the finals, you're down by one point and there is 8 seconds left on the clock. Who do you give the ball to, Scottie Pippen or Dr. J?
=======================
"Here I was, trying to win a championship, and my mouth just dropped open. He actually did that! I thought, 'What should we do? Should we take the ball out, or should we give him the ball back and ask him to do it again?' It's still the greatest move I've ever seen in a basketball game, the all-time greatest." -- Magic Johnson on the Baseline Move.

[97 bulls]

What made Dr. J great was his ability to create and score in so many different situations. They would literally give him the ball and all four other players would form a box on the opposite side of the key. No play, not even the pretense of a play, just Julius, the ball and the other team's defenders. He's going to the rack. Try to stop him. He was also incredible in the open court. One of the scariest players ever with the ball in his hands.

Game 7 of the finals, you're down by one point and there is 8 seconds left on the clock. Who do you give the ball to, Scottie Pippen or Dr. J?
=======================
"Here I was, trying to win a championship, and my mouth just dropped open. He actually did that! I thought, 'What should we do? Should we take the ball out, or should we give him the ball back and ask him to do it again?' It's still the greatest move I've ever seen in a basketball game, the all-time greatest." -- Magic Johnson on the Baseline Move.
id go with dr j. but ive seen pip hit big time clutch shots. but on the other end of the spectrum you need a defensive stop last play of the game who you puttin on the best offensive player? pip or dr j? also, your down by 3 and need a three to tie who shooting it pip or drj?

[EllEffEll]

id go with dr j. but ive seen pip hit big time clutch shots. but on the other end of the spectrum you need a defensive stop last play of the game who you puttin on the best offensive player? pip or dr j? also, your down by 3 and need a three to tie who shooting it pip or drj?

:confusedshrug:

Scottie Pippen career 3pt% - .326

Dr. J career 3pt% - .322

Julius was not a defensive liability either. He was actually a pretty good defender.

Career numbers for Dr. J are 2.0 blocks per game and 2.4 steals per game ( his numbers were higher in his ABA days, but that was also many of his prime years). Julius was at 1.8 steals and 1.5 blocks for his NBA career.

Scottie was good for 2.0 steals pre game and 0.8 blocks per game. If you remove Scottie's first five years of his career (the time J spent in the ABA), Scottie averaged 1.85 steals for the rest of his career.

Even if you consider Scottie to be a superior defender, which I have no problem with, as an overall greater player, I'm going with Dr. J.

As for leadership and Scottie being such an unselfish player, let's not forget his incident in the 1994 ECF. Overall excellent, but he had his 'human' moments just like many players have.

No disrespect to Scottie but let's not get carried away.

JMHO.

[Indian guy]

then you say that bj armstrongs assist went up cuz of the pace he played in in GS and his being allowed to be a playmaker. now either your saying armstrong was a better playmaker than pip or you misspoke.

Nah, I meant Armstrong's assists rose because he was asked to be the primary playmaker on GS, something he was never asked to be on the Bulls. That was Pippen & MJ's job. On Chicago BJ was pretty much the SG in a PG's body. That's not what he was on GS, who ASKED him to be their traditional PG with Hardaway barely playing. That's why his apg rose. He was finally given the ball and asked to create for others. It was a change in ROLE for him. Pippen going to a different team wouldn't necessarily be a change in role for him. Assuming that team didn't have a good PG, Pippen would still be their MAN on the perimeter. Just like he always was for Chicago. Which is why I see no change in his assist numbers on a different team. If anything, in a less systematic offense and w/ MJ not around I can see Pippen have a harder time generating assists. The triangle is not this anti-assists offense people are making it out to be. We have seen MJ, Pippen and Kobe outside the triangle too...and there's been no significant change in their assist numbers.


not to mention bj armstrong was never selfish.

More like overconfident. This is in both of Sam Smith's books on MJ/Bulls. The team and Phil preferred Pax over him because BJ was always out to prove he could be the guy that could consistently create off-the-dribble for himself and others. This often led to a lot of bad possessions where BJ would try to go Iverson on the opposition, instead of giving it to Pippen/MJ or running the offense. The Bulls never liked him.

[97 bulls]

:confusedshrug:

Scottie Pippen career 3pt% - .326

Dr. J career 3pt% - .322

Julius was not a defensive liability either. He was actually a pretty good defender.

Career numbers for Dr. J are 2.0 blocks per game and 2.4 steals per game ( his numbers were higher in his ABA days, but that was also many of his prime years). Julius was at 1.8 steals and 1.5 blocks for his NBA career.

Scottie was good for 2.0 steals pre game and 0.8 blocks per game. If you remove Scottie's first five years of his career (the time J spent in the ABA), Scottie averaged 1.85 steals for the rest of his career.

Even if you consider Scottie to be a superior defender, which I have no problem with, as an overall greater player, I'm going with Dr. J.

As for leadership and Scottie being such an unselfish player, let's not forget his incident in the 1994 ECF. Overall excellent, but he had his 'human' moments just like many players have.

No disrespect to Scottie but let's not get carried away.

JMHO.
lol its hard to hold a conversation when 1 person is trying to be objective and the other is biased that being (you). dr j was a 26% 3pt shooter in the nba. im talking going up against best talent. pip was a 33% shooter. and that 26% is with dr j shooting a minimal amount of 3s. im sure it would fall farther when volume comes into play.

and as a word of advice to you. never use steals and blocks as an indication of a person defensive prowess. guys like allen iverson and magic johnson (two guys who should never be in an all time defense debate) have led the league in steals.

and while that chair incident in 94 was childish that definately wasnt the defining moment in pips glorious career. you bringing that up was chilish in itself.

[JustinJDW]

Who had the better career?Scottie Pippen had the better Career with his 6 Championships and being the #2 Option of arguably the greatest Dynasty in NBA History, and playing alongside the greatest player in NBA History.

However, Julius Erving is the better player. The reason this isn't obvious is because he only has 1 NBA Ring, and that is because he played in arguably the toughest Era/Decade in NBA History, the 1980's.

Edit - Let's also not forget about Erving's 2 ABA Championships.

[97 bulls]

Nah, I meant Armstrong's assists rose because he was asked to be the primary playmaker on GS, something he was never asked to be on the Bulls. That was Pippen & MJ's job. On Chicago BJ was pretty much the SG in a PG's body. That's not what he was on GS, who ASKED him to be their traditional PG with Hardaway barely playing. That's why his apg rose. He was finally given the ball and asked to create for others. It was a change in ROLE for him. Pippen going to a different team wouldn't necessarily be a change in role for him. Assuming that team didn't have a good PG, Pippen would still be their MAN on the perimeter. Just like he always was for Chicago. Which is why I see no change in his assist numbers on a different team. If anything, in a less systematic offense and w/ MJ not around I can see Pippen have a harder time generating assists. The triangle is not this anti-assists offense people are making it out to be. We have seen MJ, Pippen and Kobe outside the triangle too...and there's been no significant change in their assist numbers.
97 bulls
there was only 1 time jordan played a role in which he was facilitating along with scoring and he average 10 assist per game. be it for about 30 games but i think he proves it could be done. so if jordan could go from 6 asst to 10 in the same role im saying pip could or wouldve thrived in, is it so far fetched that he couldnt pull 8 a game a few seasons? not to mention, he averaged more asst without mj. so once again, if he domintes the ball and is relieved of playing in the confinements of that structured offense, why is 25 9 8 so far out of reach?

as for armstrong hey, he was the starter in 92 and 93 so whatever bro.

More like overconfident. This is in both of Sam Smith's books on MJ/Bulls. The team and Phil preferred Pax over him because BJ was always out to prove he could be the guy that could consistently create off-the-dribble for himself and others. This often led to a lot of bad possessions where BJ would try to go Iverson on the opposition, instead of giving it to Pippen/MJ or running the offense. The Bulls never liked him.
^^^^ i posted inside you post

[97 bulls]

Scottie Pippen had the better Career with his 6 Championships and being the #2 Option of arguably the greatest Dynasty in NBA History, and playing alongside the greatest player in NBA History.

However, Julius Erving is the better player. The reason this isn't obvious is because he only has 1 Ring, and that is because he played in arguably the toughest Era/Decade in NBA History, the 1980's.
oh and here we go with this " the 80s was the greatest era" nonsense. come on bro you can do better than this.

[Showtime]

Argue about a few assists all you want, Erving is the superior player overall. Pippen may not even be a top 5 SF of all time.

Bird
Dr J
Baylor
Hondo
Barry
Lebron

all could arguably be ranked above Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Argue about a few assists all you want, Erving is the superior player overall. Pippen may not even be a top 5 SF of all time.

Bird
Dr J
Baylor
Hondo
Barry
Lebron

all could arguably be ranked above Pippen.
and i could argue that pip, as a second option to jordan is just as good or better than all of them.

[EllEffEll]

lol its hard to hold a conversation when 1 person is trying to be objective and the other is biased that being (you). dr j was a 26% 3pt shooter in the nba. im talking going up against best talent. pip was a 33% shooter. and that 26% is with dr j shooting a minimal amount of 3s. im sure it would fall farther when volume comes into play.

It's a lot easier to have a decent FG% and get good looks when you have Michael Jordan on your team to occupy the defensive attention of your opponents.

I find it ironic and humorous that you (97 Bulls) label me as biased, but I have no dog in this fight. I just find it incredible that people actually see Scottie Pippen on the same level as Julius Erving.


and as a word of advice to you. never use steals and blocks as an indication of a person defensive prowess. guys like allen iverson and magic johnson (two guys who should never be in an all time defense debate) have led the league in steals.

OK, I won't use those numbers, I'll just go with what my own eyes have seen. Dr. J owns Scottie. Scottie was a 2nd banana for almost all of his career . That alone takes a lot of pressure off of him.


and while that chair incident in 94 was childish that definately wasnt the defining moment in pips glorious career. you bringing that up was chilish in itself.

I wasn't referring to his chair throwing incident which happened in 1995. I was referring to Game 3 in the ECF in 1994. The game was tied at 100-100 with 1.8 seconds to play. Phil called the play for Kukoc and Pippen was supposed to inbound the ball to him. Scottie was so pissed that the play wasn't called for him that he refused to go back into the game.

Kukoc still knocked down the game winner with Pippen pouting on the bench :pimp: Not a great way to shine in crunch time.

I think it's significant because we got to see what he was like when when MJ wasn't there and things got dicey. If I hadn't read so much one-sided stuff about his "leadership", I wouldn't have brought it up. He also had some frustration over his scoring role in Houston that boiled over publicly.

It's called balance and objectivity.

Praise Scottie all you want. I think very highly of him too. Try to put him at or above Dr. J's level :no: and it's just my opinion that it's pretty easy to differentiate who is the better of the two.

[97 bulls]

It's a lot easier to have a decent FG% and get good looks when you have Michael Jordan on your team to occupy the defensive attention of your opponents.

I find it ironic and humorous that you (97 Bulls) label me as biased, but I have no dog in this fight. I just find it incredible that people actually see Scottie Pippen on the same level as Julius Erving.



OK, I won't use those numbers, I'll just go with what my own eyes have seen. Dr. J owns Scottie. Scottie was a 2nd banana for almost all of his career . That alone takes a lot of pressure off of him.



I wasn't referring to his chair throwing incident which happened in 1995. I was referring to Game 3 in the ECF in 1994. The game was tied at 100-100 with 1.8 seconds to play. Phil called the play for Kukoc and Pippen was supposed to inbound the ball to him. Scottie was so pissed that the play wasn't called for him that he refused to go back into the game.

Kukoc still knocked down the game winner with Pippen pouting on the bench :pimp: Not a great way to shine in crunch time.

I think it's significant because we got to see what he was like when when MJ wasn't there and things got dicey. If I hadn't read so much one-sided stuff about his "leadership", I wouldn't have brought it up. He also had some frustration over his scoring role in Houston that boiled over publicly.

It's called balance and objectivity.

Praise Scottie all you want. I think very highly of him too. Try to put him at or above Dr. J's level :no: and it's just my opinion that it's pretty easy to differentiate who is the better of the two.
first scottie still has to knock down shots. second he was never the guy you doubled of off.

second i find it rediculous that you would even entertain the notion that you would give julius erving great as he was the nod as the go to defender on defense over scottie pippen.

scottie was second option but the biggest team player ever. for you to knock a guy for being a team player is disingenuious. and still 2 plays out of 16 years is splitting hairs. and fact is that you dont think highly of him. if you did then you wouldnt put erving over pip on defense or "misread" or dismis the advantage pip has over dr j in 3s. be an adult and say how you feel

[EllEffEll]

first scottie still has to knock down shots. second he was never the guy you doubled of off.

second i find it rediculous that you would even entertain the notion that you would give julius erving great as he was the nod as the go to defender on defense over scottie pippen.

scottie was second option but the biggest team player ever. for you to knock a guy for being a team player is disingenuious. and still 2 plays out of 16 years is splitting hairs. and fact is that you dont think highly of him. if you did then you wouldnt put erving over pip on defense or "misread" or dismis the advantage pip has over dr j in 3s. be an adult and say how you feel

Now you have me saying things I didn't say. With respect to defense, I said:

"Even if you consider Scottie to be a superior defender, which I have no problem with, as an overall greater player, I'm going with Dr. J."

How is it that you find that to mean that I said Dr. J was given the nod as a go-to defender? THAT is disingenuous. I do think highly of him, I said I thought highly of him and I said I had no problem considering Scottie a superior defender. I also said Dr. J was no slouch as a defender. Nowhere did I say the Julius was a superior defender.

I don't usually go there, but is reading comprehension not your strong suit or are you just spoiling for an argument with someone even if it means you have to misquote them to make your point?

[Roundball_Rock]

It's a lot easier to have a decent FG% and get good looks when you have Michael Jordan on your team to occupy the defensive attention of your opponents.

Another MJ myth. I am sure the usual suspects will be here to "defend" your statement. Pippen's FG % rose when MJ retired, as did Grant's and that of the Bulls players in general who were on both the 94' and 93' teams...

97_Bulls, great job on exposing the hypocrisy of the agenda poster. :applause: Anyone who watches basketball understands the triangle deflates the assist numbers of primary ball handlers. In LA the highest anyone has ever gotten is 6.0.

As to the "great" 80's, that was a decade in which 30 and 31 win teams made the playoffs and 39 win teams could make it to the conference finals. :roll: 97 Bulls you are correct that, while Dr J was a great player, he is overrated due to style and him being a cool and exciting player and individual.

[97 bulls]

Now you have me saying things I didn't say. With respect to defense, I said:

"Even if you consider Scottie to be a superior defender, which I have no problem with, as an overall greater player, I'm going with Dr. J."

How is it that you find that to mean that I said Dr. J was given the nod as a go-to defender? THAT is disingenuous. I do think highly of him, I said I thought highly of him and I said I had no problem considering Scottie a superior defender. I also said Dr. J was no slouch as a defender. Nowhere did I say the Julius was a superior defender.

I don't usually go there, but is reading comprehension not your strong suit or are you just spoiling for an argument with someone even if it means you have to misquote them to make your point?
lol my reading comprehension is fine i asked you if you need a defensive stop who would you go with and you replied "IM GOING WITH DR.J" and your reason was that he was the better overall player. but if i did misunderstand you ill ask again, last play and you need a defensive stop dr. j or pip?

[97 bulls]

Another MJ myth. I am sure the usual suspects will be here to "defend" your statement. Pippen's FG % rose when MJ retired, as did Grant's and that of the Bulls players in general who were on both the 94' and 93' teams...

97_Bulls, great job on exposing the hypocrisy of the agenda poster. :applause: Anyone who watches basketball understands the triangle deflates the assist numbers of primary ball handlers. In LA the highest anyone has ever gotten is 6.0.

As to the "great" 80's, that was a decade in which 30 and 31 win teams made the playoffs and 39 win teams could make it to the conference finals. :roll: 97 Bulls you are correct that, while Dr J was a great player, he is overrated due to style and him being a cool and exciting player and individual.
lol hey your runin this show. you were smakn them and im just tossn my 2 cents in. im just sick of the degradation of pip. and they cant even be upfront about it. its alway pip was great but he couldnt do it without jordan, he had no offensive game, he was a choker, he wasnt a leader etc and they even take away from his defensive abilities by saying its because of him practicing with jordan. if i didnt know any better id believe that jordan gave birth to pippen and his parents.

[EllEffEll]

lol my reading comprehension is fine i asked you if you need a defensive stop who would you go with and you replied "IM GOING WITH DR.J" and your reason was that he was the better overall player. but if i did misunderstand you ill ask again, last play and you need a defensive stop dr. j or pip?

If I needed a defensive stop, I would go with Pippen.


lol hey your runin this show. you were smakn them and im just tossn my 2 cents in. im just sick of the degradation of pip. and they cant even be upfront about it. its alway pip was great but he couldnt do it without jordan, he had no offensive game, he was a choker, he wasnt a leader etc and they even take away from his defensive abilities by saying its because of him practicing with jordan. if i didnt know any better id believe that jordan gave birth to pippen and his parents.

The fact that Pip didn't do it without Jordan doesn't mean he couldn't. But the fact is that he didn't. He had some chances to and for whatever reason, he didn't.
-------------------------------------
How could someone say he's great, but he has no offensive game, he's a choker and he has no leadership? That makes no sense.
-------------------------------------
By the numbers, Scottie doesn't live on the same block as Julius. Saying that is NOT a knock on Scottie in any way. Pip was a great player and the fact that he played 2nd fiddle to MJ when his team was ultimately successful was both a blessing and a curse to his legacy.
-------------------------------------
The 30 win playoff team was the 86 Bulls and J retired in 87. The 31 win playoff team was the 88 Spurs, when Scottie was a Rookie and the year after Dr. J retired, so I'm not sure how that was very relevant to the principals discussed in this thread.

[kshutts1]

lol hey your runin this show. you were smakn them and im just tossn my 2 cents in. im just sick of the degradation of pip. and they cant even be upfront about it. its alway pip was great but he couldnt do it without jordan, he had no offensive game, he was a choker, he wasnt a leader etc and they even take away from his defensive abilities by saying its because of him practicing with jordan. if i didnt know any better id believe that jordan gave birth to pippen and his parents.

This post is very interesting, IMO, as it shows just how much we put Jordan on a pedestal. The GOAT is an opinion, yet it is widely claimed as a fact that it was Jordan, and no one that claims that is willing to budge from their position. Jordan's greatness is so... revered.... that anything positive on that team HAD to be because of him. It is impossible for most fans to be objective when it comes to anything concerning Jordan.

I'm not pointing out anyone, but that "bias" definitely exists and clouds judgment, especially in this discussion. Playing second fiddle to anyone else, we may be able to recognize greatness, but if you play second fiddle to Jordan, you are a product of his greatness.

I hope I explained that well...

[kshutts1]

Another MJ myth. I am sure the usual suspects will be here to "defend" your statement. Pippen's FG % rose when MJ retired, as did Grant's and that of the Bulls players in general who were on both the 94' and 93' teams...

97_Bulls, great job on exposing the hypocrisy of the agenda poster. :applause: Anyone who watches basketball understands the triangle deflates the assist numbers of primary ball handlers. In LA the highest anyone has ever gotten is 6.0.

As to the "great" 80's, that was a decade in which 30 and 31 win teams made the playoffs and 39 win teams could make it to the conference finals. :roll: 97 Bulls you are correct that, while Dr J was a great player, he is overrated due to style and him being a cool and exciting player and individual.

Not counting the last paragraph, as it has already been discounted, this post is great. I don't take the time to go look up statistics, but the fact that FG% increases across the board without Jordan (or at least for the players mentioned) is a very telling statistic, that should be looked at more thoroughly by people more statistically inclined than us.

As for the triangle offense assist, that point is brought up a lot. It is very interesting, and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up in Kobe vs Lebron/Wade argument threads, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Pippen would average more assists in a different system.

For all we know, that could have been the system perfectly suited to him. Phil did unleash the beasts, and let them run, so it isn't like it was the slowest offense ever.

Also, watching Pippen play, he wasn't the penetrate-and-kick type of playmaker that generally racks up the assists, but was more the Jason Kidd type, where he facilitated the offense and just knew when and where to get players the ball. IMO, those two players (at least in my viewing experience) get assists differently than most... they don't necessarily break down the defenses, but they just run the offense and know who to get the ball to, where said person likes to catch the ball, etc.

Anyway, my point about that is I don't really see him being a first option for an extended period of time, as he wasn't the aggressive type really, but more of a system scorer/assist man, and for the same reason I don't see him getting a huge number of assists per game, because he wouldn't necessarily force the issue to get double- and triple-teamed, thus freeing up teammates. He would just run the offense to perfection and get his statistics from that.

[Da_Realist]

More like overconfident. This is in both of Sam Smith's books on MJ/Bulls. The team and Phil preferred Pax over him because BJ was always out to prove he could be the guy that could consistently create off-the-dribble for himself and others. This often led to a lot of bad possessions where BJ would try to go Iverson on the opposition, instead of giving it to Pippen/MJ or running the offense. The Bulls never liked him.

I can't imagine this to be true. If it is, :eek: . I've always liked BJ and I honestly never heard any of this. Or maybe I don't remember.

[Fatal9]

So let me get this straight:

- No players have eclipsed Pippen's highest APG in a triangle setting, which is notorious for bringing down assist #s due to the ball movement.
- Pippen averaged .7 assist less when Jordan retired with Horace Grant as his second best player so the myth of "Pippen got his assists by passing to Jordan" is proven to be completely untrue.
- Pippen when he was way past his prime had similar per minute production assists wise when in a non-triangle offense. Doesn't this tell us that prime Pippen's production in that type of an offense would be much higher?!?!
- Pippen played in an offense that was on of the SLOWEST in the league. In a higher tempo setting, wouldn't you expect more assists?!
- Pippen's career high AST% just happened to be when he was 36 years old and playing in a different offense. And in his prime he is not averaging more assists?!

This is common sense people. :oldlol: at those bringing down Pippen's passing skills, what do you have against him? Yea, Phil let an average to mediocre passer run his offense during the championship years :rolleyes:. Pippen's ability to see the floor, unselfishness to get teammates involved is going to succeed in ANY system, especially an up-tempo one or one that requires a more ball dominant role.

[97 bulls]

If I needed a defensive stop, I would go with Pippen.



The fact that Pip didn't do it without Jordan doesn't mean he couldn't. But the fact is that he didn't. He had some chances to and for whatever reason, he didn't.
-------------------------------------
How could someone say he's great, but he has no offensive game, he's a choker and he has no leadership? That makes no sense.
-------------------------------------
By the numbers, Scottie doesn't live on the same block as Julius. Saying that is NOT a knock on Scottie in any way. Pip was a great player and the fact that he played 2nd fiddle to MJ when his team was ultimately successful was both a blessing and a curse to his legacy.
-------------------------------------
The 30 win playoff team was the 86 Bulls and J retired in 87. The 31 win playoff team was the 88 Spurs, when Scottie was a Rookie and the year after Dr. J retired, so I'm not sure how that was very relevant to the principals discussed in this thread.
so you saying you would go with pip is an indiction that he is and can be just as valuable to a team as dr. j. now if you want to say dr js the better scorer fine but just remember they played in two different eras and played different roles. stat for stat sure dr j beats pip. but when you look at the big picture it evens out. and your summary of pip on the bulls is great him playing alongside jordan was a gift and a curse. but to be honest it was solely a gift for jordan.

[97 bulls]

This post is very interesting, IMO, as it shows just how much we put Jordan on a pedestal. The GOAT is an opinion, yet it is widely claimed as a fact that it was Jordan, and no one that claims that is willing to budge from their position. Jordan's greatness is so... revered.... that anything positive on that team HAD to be because of him. It is impossible for most fans to be objective when it comes to anything concerning Jordan.

I'm not pointing out anyone, but that "bias" definitely exists and clouds judgment, especially in this discussion. Playing second fiddle to anyone else, we may be able to recognize greatness, but if you play second fiddle to Jordan, you are a product of his greatness.

I hope I explained that well...
great great great post bro.

[Sir Charles]

Dr Was a Bit Overrated as a One that Makes Others Better but as an Individual Impact Player He is Way Underrated just because he was Athletic and he Did Suffer Alot to Win an NBA Championship because he didn`t have the players to do so untill the late 70s and early 80s

Look Pippen is also....Underrated and Definetly his PER would be Higher if he wasn`t doing The Dirty Job + The Game Creating Job and Being the Second Focal Scorer...pretty much everything for the Bulls to benefit Jordan and make it easier for Jordan and his Team to Win. But its a sacrifice he had to do...

-Running the Triangle Offense
-Being the Best Perimter Defender
-Guarding the Opposing Teams Best Offensive Players
-Being the Best Game Creator
-Second Scoring Load
-Second Rebounding Load

etc etc

But Dr J was definetly Better

Player Efficiency Rating

1971-72 ABA 23.9 (4)
1972-73 ABA 27.7 (1)
1973-74 ABA 25.7 (1)
1974-75 ABA 26.2 (1)
1975-76 ABA 28.7 (1)
1976-77 NBA 20.9 (10)
1977-78 NBA 21.7 (10)
1979-80 NBA 25.4 (1)
1980-81 NBA 25.1 (4)
1981-82 NBA 25.9 (2)
1982-83 NBA 23.1 (5)
1983-84 NBA 22.9 (5)
Career ABA 26.4 (1)
Career NBA 22.0 (25)
Career 23.6 (17)

Defensive Rating

1973-74 ABA 94.2 (2)
1974-75 ABA 95.5 (2)
1975-76 ABA 97.5 (1)
1979-80 NBA 98.6 (10)
1980-81 NBA 96.7 (4)
1983-84 NBA 102.4 (10)
Career ABA 95.7 (2)

Just Look at his Dr J`s Play-Off Stas too even as an aged man he was Good

Dr J was a Better;:

- Offensive Player: Mid Range Shooter, One on One Scorer, Driver, Break Finisher (although Pipp wasn`t bad in these either in these)
- Rebounder (Pipp wasn`t bad either)
- Shot Blocker and Stealer...Athletic Capacity...
- In his Prime Was a Better or as Good 1 on 1 Defender
- Caused More Missmatch Problems for SFs he the Perfect SG-SF

Pippen was the Better:

-Game Creator
-Passer
-Perimeter Defender

Dr J was Better: Judge him In his Prime ages 21 or 22 to about 32

But Pippen is still around a Top 30-40 GOAT

BTW: In the 80s Even 30 and 31 Win Teams Made it to the Play-Offs BECAUSE?

IT WAS MUCH HARDER TO WIN...ANYONE COULD BEAT YOU IF YOU WHERE RELAXED AND OVER CONDIFENT. COMPETITION WAS MUCH HARDER. IT WAS MUCH HARDER TO ACTUALLY WIN

[Lebron23]

Dr Was a Bit Overrated as a One that Makes Others Better but as an Individual Impact Player He is Way Underrated just because he was Athletic and he Did Suffer Alot to Win an NBA Championship because he didn`t have the players to do so untill the late 70s and early 80s

Look Pippen is also....Underrated and Definetly his PER would be Higher if he wasn`t doing The Dirty Job + The Game Creating Job and Being the Second Focal Scorer...pretty much everything for the Bulls to benefit Jordan and make it easier for Jordan and his Team to Win. But its a sacrifice he had to do...

-Running the Triangle Offense
-Being the Best Perimter Defender
-Guarding the Opposing Teams Best Offensive Players
-Being the Best Game Creator
-Second Scoring Load
-Second Rebounding Load

etc etc

But Dr J was definetly Better

Player Efficiency Rating

1971-72 ABA 23.9 (4)
1972-73 ABA 27.7 (1)
1973-74 ABA 25.7 (1)
1974-75 ABA 26.2 (1)
1975-76 ABA 28.7 (1)
1976-77 NBA 20.9 (10)
1977-78 NBA 21.7 (10)
1979-80 NBA 25.4 (1)
1980-81 NBA 25.1 (4)
1981-82 NBA 25.9 (2)
1982-83 NBA 23.1 (5)
1983-84 NBA 22.9 (5)
Career ABA 26.4 (1)
Career NBA 22.0 (25)
Career 23.6 (17)

Defensive Rating

1973-74 ABA 94.2 (2)
1974-75 ABA 95.5 (2)
1975-76 ABA 97.5 (1)
1979-80 NBA 98.6 (10)
1980-81 NBA 96.7 (4)
1983-84 NBA 102.4 (10)
Career ABA 95.7 (2)

Just Look at his Dr J`s Play-Off Stas too even as an aged man he was Good

Dr J was a Better;:

- Offensive Player: Mid Range Shooter, One on One Scorer, Driver, Break Finisher (although Pipp wasn`t bad in these either in these)
- Rebounder (Pipp wasn`t bad either)
- Shot Blocker and Stealer...Athletic Capacity...
- In his Prime Was a Better or as Good 1 on 1 Defender
- Caused More Missmatch Problems for SFs he the Perfect SG-SF

Pippen was the Better:

-Game Creator
-Passer
-Perimeter Defender

Dr J was Better: Judge him In his Prime ages 21 or 22 to about 32

But Pippen is still around a Top 30-40 GOAT


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[97 bulls]

Not counting the last paragraph, as it has already been discounted, this post is great. I don't take the time to go look up statistics, but the fact that FG% increases across the board without Jordan (or at least for the players mentioned) is a very telling statistic, that should be looked at more thoroughly by people more statistically inclined than us.

As for the triangle offense assist, that point is brought up a lot. It is very interesting, and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up in Kobe vs Lebron/Wade argument threads, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Pippen would average more assists in a different system.

For all we know, that could have been the system perfectly suited to him. Phil did unleash the beasts, and let them run, so it isn't like it was the slowest offense ever.

Also, watching Pippen play, he wasn't the penetrate-and-kick type of playmaker that generally racks up the assists, but was more the Jason Kidd type, where he facilitated the offense and just knew when and where to get players the ball. IMO, those two players (at least in my viewing experience) get assists differently than most... they don't necessarily break down the defenses, but they just run the offense and know who to get the ball to, where said person likes to catch the ball, etc.

Anyway, my point about that is I don't really see him being a first option for an extended period of time, as he wasn't the aggressive type really, but more of a system scorer/assist man, and for the same reason I don't see him getting a huge number of assists per game, because he wouldn't necessarily force the issue to get double- and triple-teamed, thus freeing up teammates. He would just run the offense to perfection and get his statistics from that.
everything you said is true. however i feel if he was more aggresive he had the tools to be a great scorer. but he ACCEPTED the role that the bulls needed him to play. now while it hurt his individual accolades, it brought him six championships. but i see no reason he wouldntve put up better numbers and a ring or 2 as the best player on the team. i believe that if the bulls have any shooting guard worth a damn (pete myers was jordans replacement) the bulls win a ring in 94 pip get an mvp along with the ASG mvp and a finals mvp.

[juju151111]

This post is very interesting, IMO, as it shows just how much we put Jordan on a pedestal. The GOAT is an opinion, yet it is widely claimed as a fact that it was Jordan, and no one that claims that is willing to budge from their position. Jordan's greatness is so... revered.... that anything positive on that team HAD to be because of him. It is impossible for most fans to be objective when it comes to anything concerning Jordan.

I'm not pointing out anyone, but that "bias" definitely exists and clouds judgment, especially in this discussion. Playing second fiddle to anyone else, we may be able to recognize greatness, but if you play second fiddle to Jordan, you are a product of his greatness.

I hope I explained that well...
Most MJ fans say Pippen was great and love pippen. The only reason you see MJ fans going against Pippen in certain debates is because some people want to overrate pippen and saying MJ can't do anything without pippen. For example, This retard Roundball actually thinks Pippen was more important then MJ to the chip teams. Also Mj helped pippen slightly with his offensive game, ut pippen potential and help defensive instincts was all him. Pippen was the player Mj most respected on the bulls because he wanted to get etter the most he said in a interview. Mj is the Goat tho.

[97 bulls]

Dr Was a Bit Overrated as a One that Makes Others Better but as an Individual Impact Player He is Way Underrated just because he was Athletic and he Did Suffer Alot to Win an NBA Championship because he didn`t have the players to do so untill the late 70s and early 80s

Look Pippen is also....Underrated and Definetly his PER would be Higher if he wasn`t doing The Dirty Job + The Game Creating Job and Being the Second Focal Scorer...pretty much everything for the Bulls to benefit Jordan and make it easier for Jordan and his Team to Win. But its a sacrifice he had to do...

-Running the Triangle Offense
-Being the Best Perimter Defender
-Guarding the Opposing Teams Best Offensive Players
-Being the Best Game Creator
-Second Scoring Load
-Second Rebounding Load

etc etc

But Dr J was definetly Better

Player Efficiency Rating

1971-72 ABA 23.9 (4)
1972-73 ABA 27.7 (1)
1973-74 ABA 25.7 (1)
1974-75 ABA 26.2 (1)
1975-76 ABA 28.7 (1)
1976-77 NBA 20.9 (10)
1977-78 NBA 21.7 (10)
1979-80 NBA 25.4 (1)
1980-81 NBA 25.1 (4)
1981-82 NBA 25.9 (2)
1982-83 NBA 23.1 (5)
1983-84 NBA 22.9 (5)
Career ABA 26.4 (1)
Career NBA 22.0 (25)
Career 23.6 (17)

Defensive Rating

1973-74 ABA 94.2 (2)
1974-75 ABA 95.5 (2)
1975-76 ABA 97.5 (1)
1979-80 NBA 98.6 (10)
1980-81 NBA 96.7 (4)
1983-84 NBA 102.4 (10)
Career ABA 95.7 (2)

Just Look at his Dr J`s Play-Off Stas too even as an aged man he was Good

Dr J was a Better;:

- Offensive Player: Mid Range Shooter, One on One Scorer, Driver, Break Finisher (although Pipp wasn`t bad in these either in these)
- Rebounder (Pipp wasn`t bad either)
- Shot Blocker and Stealer...Athletic Capacity...
- In his Prime Was a Better or as Good 1 on 1 Defender
- Caused More Missmatch Problems for SFs he the Perfect SG-SF

Pippen was the Better:

-Game Creator
-Passer
-Perimeter Defender

Dr J was Better: Judge him In his Prime ages 21 or 22 to about 32

But Pippen is still around a Top 30-40 GOAT

BTW: In the 80s Even 30 and 31 Win Teams Made it to the Play-Offs BECAUSE?

IT WAS MUCH HARDER TO WIN...ANYONE COULD BEAT YOU IF YOU WHERE RELAXED AND OVER CONDIFENT. COMPETITION WAS MUCH HARDER. IT WAS MUCH HARDER TO ACTUALLY WIN
but charles, how can you compare the stats of a guy that was a career number 1 and played in a much faster pace to a guy that was a career number 2. not to mention if dr j and jordan are on the same team, dr j becomes pippen.

and im sorry but in no sport is a team that wins a little over 40% of their games get in the playoffs justified.

[Roundball_Rock]

By the numbers, Scottie doesn't live on the same block as Julius. Saying that is NOT a knock on Scottie in any way. P

You guys can't have it both ways. You cannot criticize Pippen for not winning a ring without Jordan (what is conveniently left it is that Pip came far closer to winning a ring without Jordan than vice versa...) after having tendonitis, back, foot injuries, two herniated disks, 34 years, 6 NBA finals runs, 2 conference finals runs, and 2 Olympics wearing down his body and then bust out the stats, which were deflated by playing with the said Jordan.

For 1

[Fatal9]

Why do people take any comment that might make MJ seem like a human as "Pippen>MJ" or "Kobe>MJ"? What's up with the retards/insecure trolls who can't read without resorting to such exaggerations?

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]You guys can't have it both ways. You cannot criticize Pippen for not winning a ring without Jordan (what is conveniently left it is that Pip came far closer to winning a ring without Jordan than vice versa...) after having tendonitis, back, foot injuries, two herniated disks, 34 years, 6 NBA finals runs, 2 conference finals runs, and 2 Olympics wearing down his body and then bust out the stats, which were deflated by playing with the said Jordan.

For 1

[Roundball_Rock]

Why do people take any comment that might make MJ seem like a human as "Pippen>MJ" or "Kobe>MJ"? What's up with the retards/insecure trolls who can't read without resorting to such exaggerations?

I do not understand it and I don't understand why this is endemic to MJ fans.

Some Kobe fans trash Gasol but generally they overrate him. He is not even top 5 at his position yet they call him a top 10-15 player in the league. They also vastly overrate Bynum, a 14/8 player at his best thus far, hardly the second coming of Kareem. Odom>Bynum.

Well, it is a factual statement that Jordan never won anything without Pippen. MJ fans can't have it both ways. You cannot say Pippen never won without MJ or that Kobe has not won without Shaq yet and then pretend MJ won "by himself."

[EllEffEll]

Who said Pippen sucked?

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate :hammerhead:

The thread is "Dr. J vs. Scottie Pippen".

I'm going with Dr. J

Deal with it.

You apparently would take Scottie.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just refrain from twisting what I did say into something I didn't say. That I care about. Get it?

[97 bulls]

Who said Pippen sucked?

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate :hammerhead:

The thread is "Dr. J vs. Scottie Pippen".

I'm going with Dr. J

Deal with it.

You apparently would take Scottie.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just refrain from twisting what I did say into something I didn't say. That I care about. Get it?
who are you directing this to? ^^^

[EllEffEll]

who are you directing this to? ^^^

Roundball, not you.

After seeing you 'applaud' Sir Charles post, I think we may actually feel pretty similarly about Scottie's legacy :confusedshrug: :cheers:

[kshutts1]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]You guys can't have it both ways. You cannot criticize Pippen for not winning a ring without Jordan (what is conveniently left it is that Pip came far closer to winning a ring without Jordan than vice versa...) after having tendonitis, back, foot injuries, two herniated disks, 34 years, 6 NBA finals runs, 2 conference finals runs, and 2 Olympics wearing down his body and then bust out the stats, which were deflated by playing with the said Jordan.

For 1

[Sir Charles]

but charles, how can you compare the stats of a guy that was a career number 1 and played in a much faster pace to a guy that was a career number 2. not to mention if dr j and jordan are on the same team, dr j becomes pippen.

and im sorry but in no sport is a team that wins a little over 40% of their games get in the playoffs justified.

[B]You just said it yourself

DR J was a N

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]You just said it yourself

DR J was a N