Scottie Pippen is the most Overrated AND Underrated player ever

[Tarik One]

Is there any other player more polarizing than Scottie Pippen? The only player I can come up with in which basketball fans and critics regard him as overrated as well as underrated. What gives?

[Roundball_Rock]

What gives is agenda driven posting. Look at the recent Pippen threads. Guess who is always diminishing Pippen into borderline all-star status? They are all fans of the same guy...

He is underrated because people forget what he did as the #1 option in his prime.

Pippen is the GOAT perimeter defender, was a MVP caliber player, and at least a top 5 player (and the best all-around player) and the best SF in his prime. Was this because of Michael Jordan? For 1

[Bigsmoke]

Pippen is overrated and dont see anything underrated about him... and i'm from Chicago

[chitownsfinest]

I agree with this post. He is underrated when you have people claiming Jordan made him and that he was worse the Glen Rice (like Bruce Blitz once claimed).

He is overrated when you have agenda driven posters claiming he was the sole reason for Jordan's playoff success and all of a sudden made Jordan into a better player when he came in.

[Roundball_Rock]

Let me guess: you are a MJ fan? :oldlol:

[White Chocolate]

He's underrated because many people have no idea how well he played in 1993-94 and most of 1994-95 without MJ. He could have won MVP and no one would have complained. Although Admiral and Dream both had cases, Pippen did too and most would have had no problem with him winning the award.


He's overrated because people only look at his years without MJ and say "If he could do that without MJ, he could have been one of the best of all-time".

[Duncan21formvp]

Pippen is the most overrated player ever. If he were soo good then that means out of 6 finals that the Bulls won he should have gotten at least 1 finals mvp. He also should have finished top 3 in MVP voting more than once.

Pippen < Tony Parker


Parker was able to get a finals mvp.

[Roundball_Rock]

He's overrated because people only look at his years without MJ and say "If he could do that without MJ, he could have been one of the best of all-time".

It is a reasonable assumption that a player's stats are deflated while playing with the GOAT. This was on stark display in 1995 when you look at his stats without Jordan and then with Jordan. Was he really a better player in 1995 than 1996? He was basically the same player from 1994-97 but he did not get the recognition and stats in 96'/97' because of MJ's long shadow. It is not as if 1994 and 1995 were anomalies where his performance suddenly skyrocketed.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen is the most overrated player ever. If he were soo good then that means out of 6 finals that the Bulls won he should have gotten at least 1 finals mvp.

:oldlol: @ the notion that the media would have given the finals MVP to someone other than their favorite sports darling of all-time MJ if the Bulls won.

How could he finish top 3 in MVP voting more than once when he was in MJ's shadow for nearly his entire prime? Even with that he did finish 5th in 1996, and was barely behind 4th place Hakeem.

Pippen in 1992: 21/8/7/2
Pippen in 1994: 22/9/6/3

Pippen's MVP vote in 1992: 9th with 3% of the vote
Pippen's MVP vote in 1994: 3rd with 39% of the vote

I guess that extra steal was the reason for the 13x increase in his MVP vote? :oldlol:

[Duncan21formvp]

:oldlol: @ the notion that the media would have given the finals MVP to someone other than their favorite sports darling of all-time MJ if the Bulls won.

How could he finish top 3 in MVP voting more than once when he was in MJ's shadow for nearly his entire prime? Even with that he did finish 5th in 1996, and was barely behind 4th place Hakeem.

Doesn't matter, he wasn't good enough to get finals mvp. He wasn't good enough to finish top 3 in MVP voting more than once. He was overrated. He should be compared to guys like Michael Redd, John Salmons, etc.

[branslowski]

[QUOTE]Pippen is the most overrated player ever. If he were soo good then that means out of 6 finals that the Bulls won he should have gotten at least 1 finals mvp. He also should have finished top 3 in MVP voting more than once.

Maybe because he was playing along side of the GOAT...How is he overrated for not winning a Finals MVP over the GOAT? His resume speaks for itself.


Pippen < Tony Parker

:oldlol: Pippen, better All-Round Player, Defender, lead a team to 55 wins after the GOAT retired. STFU


Parker was able to get a finals mvp.

:violin:

[Maniak]

Pippen is the most overrated player ever. If he were soo good then that means out of 6 finals that the Bulls won he should have gotten at least 1 finals mvp. He also should have finished top 3 in MVP voting more than once.

Pippen < Tony Parker


Parker was able to get a finals mvp.
So we're basing the goodness of Pippen on his awards? You're not going to look at his clutch ability, his amazing versatility on the floor, his athleticism that allowed him do amazing moves nobody in the NBA does anymore, his awesome defense, his sportsmanship to be able to accept being #2, or his performances WITHOUT Jordan?

[chitownsfinest]

:oldlol: @ the notion that the media would have given the finals MVP to someone other than their favorite sports darling of all-time MJ if the Bulls won.

How could he finish top 3 in MVP voting more than once when he was in MJ's shadow for nearly his entire prime? Even with that he did finish 5th in 1996, and was barely behind 4th place Hakeem.
To be fair, with the possible exception of 91 (where he played great and played nice D on Magic), Pippen never really played good enough in any of the other 5 finals series to win the Finals MVP over Jordan. I do believe Rodman and Jordan should have been co-finals MVP's in 96 though.

[DCL]

if you include all the dialogue from his biggest nutr1ders and his biggest haters, i think the haters' voices are much louder, so he is underrated. but this is pretty true. people view his game so differently. often, one might see blue and another might see purple. they're different colors but still sorta in line with each other. but with pip, it's like one sees green and another sees pink. both sides think the other side is completely retarded. :oldlol:

[Bush4Ever]

Stuff

And here we......go!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BJlrLlRHLRU/SV-g1ju7l7I/AAAAAAAABBo/6FzvTSlpcmI/s400/Here_we_go_joker.jpg

[Bigsmoke]

:oldlol: @ the notion that the media would have given the finals MVP to someone other than their favorite sports darling of all-time MJ if the Bulls won.

How could he finish top 3 in MVP


Peja Stojakovic finished fourth in MVP voting before too.

[White Chocolate]

Doesn't matter, he wasn't good enough to get finals mvp. He wasn't good enough to finish top 3 in MVP voting more than once. He was overrated. He should be compared to guys like Michael Redd, John Salmons, etc.


MJ would have had to either 1)Average < 20 PPG, or 2)Not play at all, in order for Pip to win Finals MVP.

[Roundball_Rock]

:applause:

According to this guy Cedric Maxwell>Oscar Robertson because Maxwell won a finals MVP. :oldlol:


Peja Stojakovic finished fourth in MVP voting too.

That scrub was second in the league in scoring while shooting 43% on three's to lead a team without an injured Webber to 55 wins. He deserved to be 4th that season. Of course, what happened to him after that? He was a one hit wonder as far as being an elite player.


To be fair, with the possible exception of 91 (where he played great and played nice D on Magic), Pippen never really played good enough in any of the other 5 finals series to win the Finals MVP over Jordan. I do believe Rodman and Jordan should have been co-finals MVP's in 96 though.

According to MJ, Pip deserved the finals MVP in 98'.

[andgar923]

Here's the thing.

MJ fans have never diminished Pip.

Its Kobe STANS that elevate Pip to grandiose levels, in order to make a case that Kobe is better than MJ.

So when you have somebody that's basically saying, Pip is responsible for the Bulls' victories of course people are gonna immediately laugh at them and point out Pippen's shortcomings. And rightfully say, "MJ made Pip" because well........ HE DID.

Most of us agree that Pip is one of, if not the best perimeter defender of all time.

I don't think anybody has ever denied that.

Most of us have admitted that Pip is the best sidekick of all time.

I don't see that as underrating him.

Now..... these are the FACTS.

MJ never won without Pip, but Pip never won without MJ.

However......

Shaq was Shaq before Kobe came into the picture.
Shaq went to the Finals before Kobe came into the picture.
Shaq WON without Kobe.

Kobe will win his first ring without Shaq.

But he'll be doing it with possibly the best center in the league (at the very least top 3), and one of the best players period. A player that had been an all star 'before' he came to the Lakers, a player that led a mediocre team to the playoffs.

[Torious]

In the spirit of the thread, I'd like to call this the stupidest AND best thread ever.

[Duncan21formvp]

Peja Stojakovic finished fourth in MVP voting before too.
:cheers: :rockon: :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Its Kobe STANS that elevate Pip to grandiose levels, in order to make a case that Kobe is better than MJ.


That makes no sense. What does Pippen being a great player have to do with Kobe? MJ stans have never explained this faulty logic.

[andgar923]

In the spirit of the thread, I'd like to call this the stupidest AND best thread ever.

LOL:cheers:

For some odd reason The Beatles popped into my head.

"When I say hello, you say goodbye"

[Bigsmoke]

:applause:

According to this guy Cedric Maxwell>Oscar Robertson because Maxwell won a finals MVP. :oldlol:



That scrub was second in the league in scoring while shooting 43% on three's to lead a team with an injured Webber to 55 wins. He deserved to be 4th that season. Of course, what happened to him after that? He was a one hit wonder as far as being an elite player.



According to MJ, Pip deserved the finals MVP in 98'.

you dont think Brad Miller, Mike Bibby, Bobby Jackson, and Doug Christie were part of the Kings succuss that year? Lets not forget about Peja's defense.

[catch24]

That makes no sense. What does Pippen being a great player have to do with Kobe? MJ stans have never explained this faulty logic.

They're the ones that bring Kobe into everything, this has nothing to do with Kobe :confusedshrug:. Funny how these Fruit of the Loom Hanes Wearing Jockers concede that Jordan was the only one in the trench, had no help whatsoever, did it with a tremendously crappy cast.

MJ is the GOAT sg in HISTORY and arguably the GOAT, but his fanatics (or "fans") are beyond ridiculous.

[andgar923]

That makes no sense. What does Pippen being a great player have to do with Kobe? MJ stans have never explained this faulty logic.

Lets cut the bs.

Kobe stans have ALWAYS done that to diminish MJ's legacy.

They've always said that MJ couldn't win without Kobe to counter the Shaq carried Kobe argument.

[branslowski]

That makes no sense. What does Pippen being a great player have to do with Kobe? MJ stans have never explained this faulty logic.

Silly, silly you...Even though you are a Pippen fan, if you disagree with anything a Mj stan has to say, then you automatically must be a Kobe STAN...duh..:D

[White Chocolate]

That scrub was second in the league in scoring while shooting 43% on three's to lead a team without an injured Webber to 55 wins. He deserved to be 4th that season. Of course, what happened to him after that? He was a one hit wonder as far as being an elite player.


That team very well could have went on to the Finals if they could have avoided the Lakers for one more round. If Webber was healthy, this team is easily #1 in the West. Even with Webber injured for quite a bit, they were only 3 wins behind San Antonio for #1 in the West.

[branslowski]

They're the ones that bring Kobe into everything, this has nothing to do with Kobe :confusedshrug:. Funny how these Fruit of the Loom Hanes Wearing Jockers concede that Jordan was the only one in the trench, had no help whatsoever, did it with a tremendously crappy cast.

MJ is the GOAT sg in HISTORY and arguably the GOAT, but his fanatics (or "fans") are beyond ridiculous.

Yeah, I really don't know how Kobe's name even got in this thread...Weird..

[catch24]

Lets cut the bs.

Kobe stans have ALWAYS done that to diminish MJ's legacy.

They've always said that MJ couldn't win without Kobe to counter the Shaq carried Kobe argument.

Spare the nonsense. You fanatics expect every fan to write a sonnet about Jordan, it's pathetic.

[catch24]

Yeah, I really don't know how Kobe's name even got in this thread...Weird..

Whatup d00d? Ha. This basically happens every time someone talks about the Bulls teams in general. Nothing new.

[Roundball_Rock]

you dont think Brad Miller, Mike Bibby, Bobby Jackson, and Doug Christie were part of the Kings succuss that year? Lets not forget about Peja's defense.

Being second in the league in scoring and leading your team to 55 wins and finishing 4th in MVP voting is not unusual.

I agree catch, they are obsessed with Kobe for some reason and have elevated Jordan to demigod status with all the myths they have created about him.


Lets cut the bs.

Kobe stans have ALWAYS done that to diminish MJ's legacy.

They've always said that MJ couldn't win without Kobe to counter the Shaq carried Kobe argument.

So what? Even if we accept that fact that Jordan could not have won by himself neither could have Kobe. Then we are left to compare the two players on an individual basis and MJ crushes Kobe.

Maybe it is all a big Laker fan conspiracy to elevate Kareem and Magic, who are real rivals of MJ in the GOAT discussion, not Kobe who is only arguably top 10 all-time if he wins the title this year. :hammertime:

:oldlol: I forgot that brans!



That team very well could have went on to the Finals if they could have avoided the Lakers for one more round. If Webber was healthy, this team is easily #1 in the West. Even with Webber injured for quite a bit, they were only 3 wins behind San Antonio for #1 in the West.


Exactly. Peja deserved to be high in the MVP vote.


Spare the nonsense. You fanatics expect every fan to write a sonnet about Jordan, it's pathetic.

Exactly. They made Fatal "prove" his loyalty to MJ's GOAT status the other day. These guys want you to sign loyalty oaths to MJ every other day.

[andgar923]

Yeah, I really don't know how Kobe's name even got in this thread...Weird..

Stop it.... please stop it.

The ONLY time this ever becomes an issue, is because KOBE STANS bring it up.

Now all of a sudden you guys have no idea why his name is mentioned.

LOL

[catch24]

Stop it.... please stop it.

The ONLY time this ever becomes an issue, is because KOBE STANS bring it up.

Now all of a sudden you guys have no idea why his name is mentioned.

LOL

You're still the only one talking about Kobe kiddo. Keep digging that hole of yours.

[Indian guy]

Generally the crowd that overrates him(outside of Kobe stans, whose agenda is obvious) or underrates him are those who simply never watched him play outside of ESPN Classic or YT highlight videos. But those who did do give him his due. He was a borderline Top 5 player for a 3-4 year stretch - 93-94 to 96-97. Terrific defensively, and good at all the other aspects of the game. What ultimately hurts and helps Pip's standing in NBA history is that he played with a player that was so much better than him. MJ overshadowed Pip's contributions, but on the positive side playing with MJ also allowed Pip to win more than he would've alongside any other player. And winning so much is the only reason why Pippen's relevant today...because his numbers, while good, are nothing great.

[Bigsmoke]

Being second in the league in scoring and leading your team to 55 wins and finishing 4th in MVP voting is not unusual.

I agree catch, they are obsessed with Kobe for some reason and have elevated Jordan to demigod status with all the myths they have created about him.



i'm just saying MVP votings is a little more irrelevant as poeple portrayed it as :confusedshrug:

[catch24]

How do you overrate a top 50 player of all time (HoFer) and one of, if not the best perimeter defenders in history? :confusedshrug:

[Fatal9]

Still trying to figure out how exactly Pippen can be overrated when no one on this forum has ever questioned who the leader on the Bulls teams was, or said something like Pippen = top 15. There were two threads along the lines of "Dr. J or Pippen" and "Lebron or Pippen" and not a single person (rightly) picked Scottie. So where are you making this stuff up from? :confusedshrug:


MJ fans have never diminished Pip.
:roll:

[White Chocolate]

How do you overrate a top 50 player of all time (HoFer) and one of, if not the best perimeter defenders in history? :confusedshrug:


Because there's the possibility that without GOAT, Pip is top 10 all-time.

[branslowski]

Whatup d00d? Ha. This basically happens every time someone talks about the Bulls teams in general. Nothing new.

Sup bro....Some MJ "Hanes Wearer's" have their greased hands so tight on MJ's Shaft it's ashame...Fans of Pippen can't even be fans...Because soon as they talk good about him and list facts....They are called Kobe Apostles...

Now, I don't give a sh!t...Anyone with a Brain know's MJ is the GOAT...But I guess the "Hanes Wearer's" also wan't you to lick his belly button and light his cigar aswell....

[andgar923]

So what? Even if we accept that fact that Jordan could not have won by himself neither could have Kobe. Then we are left to compare the two players on an individual basis and MJ crushes Kobe.

Maybe it is all a big Laker fan conspiracy to elevate Kareem and Magic, who are real rivals of MJ in the GOAT discussion, not Kobe who is only arguably top 10 all-time if he wins the title this year. :hammertime:

:oldlol: I forgot that brans!

But that's not the point.

Kobe stans are the ones that started that argument, because they knew that they couldn't argue them based on individual basis.

I've been through these arguments for years, I'll give you a quick history.

First they said Kobe was a better athlete..... that was debunked
Then they tried to say he was better due to his stats..... that was debunked
Then they tried to say Kobe was gonna be more successful..... that was debunked
So they started to say "MJ won because of Pip" as a way to diminish MJ's rings.... that didn't work to well, but they kept at it (still do).
Then it was "Kobe plays against the 'zone'"..... that was debunked.

We can accept that Pip played a huge role. But we all know that MJ was the leader, the one that led them to those titles. But Kobe STANS make it seem as if PIp was the man, that Pip was the reason, that Pip is MJ's equal.

They've even posted the pick of a sick MJ helped up by Pip, and said "Proof that he carried Mj to those rings"...... are you kidding me?

LOL

[Roundball_Rock]

i'm just saying MVP votings is a little more irrelevant as poeple portrayed it as :confusedshrug:

It is relevant when the guy played at roughly the same level from 1992-97 but was given true MVP consideration only once. You guys cannot cite him never winning a MVP and then ignore why he never did: playing in the shadow of the GOAT. You are comparing this to a one a hit wonder in Peja.

[catch24]

Again, why are people still talking about KOBE ROFL?????

[branslowski]

But that's not the point.

Kobe stans are the ones that started that argument, because they knew that they couldn't argue them based on individual basis.

I've been through these arguments for years, I'll give you a quick history.

First they said Kobe was a better athlete..... that was debunked
Then they tried to say he was better due to his stats..... that was debunked
Then they tried to say Kobe was gonna be more successful..... that was debunked
So they started to say "MJ won because of Pip" as a way to diminish MJ's rings.... that didn't work to well, but they kept at it (still do).
Then it was "Kobe plays against the 'zone'"..... that was debunked.

We can accept that Pip played a huge role. But we all know that MJ was the leader, the one that led them to those titles. But Kobe STANS make it seem as if PIp was the man, that Pip was the reason, that Pip is MJ's equal.

They've even posted the pick of a sick MJ helped up by Pip, and said "Proof that he carried Mj to those rings"...... are you kidding me?

LOL

What Kobe stans you hang around who think Pippen Carried MJ????

Alpha Wolf and Pah???...:oldlol:

[andgar923]

You're still the only one talking about Kobe kiddo. Keep digging that hole of yours.

Clever and cute, but we all know I'm correct.

[catch24]

Sup bro....Some MJ "Hanes Wearer's" have their greased hands so tight on MJ's Shaft it's ashame...Fans of Pippen can't even be fans...Because soon as they talk good about him and list facts....They are called Kobe Apostles...

Now, I don't give a sh!t...Anyone with a Brain know's MJ is the GOAT...But I guess the "Hanes Wearer's" also wan't you to lick his belly button and light his cigar aswell....

This. If you know what's best for you bro, don't talk about Pippen's accomplishments...especially the boogieman's (Kobe).

[White Chocolate]

Again, why are people still talking about KOBE ROFL?????


We could be talking about apple sauce and Kobe Bryant will somehow be brought into the conversation. "That's not how Kobe Bryant eats his applesauce", "Kobe prefers Motts", "Applesauce is Kobe's pre-game meal".

[catch24]

Clever and cute, but we all know I'm correct.

You are definitely not correct. You must be referring to the trolls (Pah, Alphawolf). Jordan is not your savior..leave him alone bro.

[andgar923]

What Kobe stans you hang around who think Pippen Carried MJ????

Alpha Wolf and Pah???...:oldlol:

He along with is legions of THOUSANDS all over the net, which unfortunately spills over to real life.

I live in LA and I've seen some of my best friends get influenced by KPAH's vids.

I remember I was at my boy's and he was eager to show me PROOF of Kobe facing superior defense.

And guess what?

It was KPAH's vid.... I burst out laughing.

And have you seen how many views his vids get?

So to single out KPAH as a sole entity is naive. He has thousands of acolytes all over, believing his propaganda.

I'm a poster on other boards, and I see the same arguments all over.

[Roundball_Rock]

What Kobe stans you hang around who think Pippen Carried MJ????

Alpha Wolf and Pah???...:oldlol:

Exactly. These guys use trolls to justify their constant effort to diminish MJ's teammates. Use some common sense regarding trolls. Look at this thread. Do you think timduncan21 really believes Tony Parker>Scottie Pippen? :oldlol: The difference is, though, respectable MJ fans diminish MJ's teammates while it is only trolls who claim Pippen>Jordan.

[branslowski]

He along with is legions of THOUSANDS all over the net, which unfortunately spills over to real life.

I live in LA and I've seen some of my best friends get influenced by KPAH's vids.

I remember I was at my boy's and he was eager to show me PROOF of Kobe facing superior defense.

And guess what?

It was KPAH's vid.... I burst out laughing.

And have you seen how many views his vids get?

So to single out KPAH as a sole entity is naive. He has thousands of acolytes all over, believing his propaganda.

I'm a poster on other boards, and I see the same arguments all over.

I tell you this...To be fair to Pah (Even though he's a moron at times) his vids show defense's Kobe faces...He's done nothing different then MJ homers editing clips of MJ getting hit when he drives to the basket, while leaving out the open free lane dunks and layups he has....Everyone has editing bias.

But, we all know that MJ>>>>>>>Kobe and its not even close....

[andgar923]

I tell you this...To be fair to Pah (Even though he's a moron at times) his vids show defense's Kobe faces...He's done nothing different then MJ homers editing clips of MJ getting hit when he drives to the basket, while leaving out the open free lane dunks and layups he has....Everyone has editing bias.

But, we all know that MJ>>>>>>>Kobe and its not even close....

Don't wanna get too much into it, but there's a difference in the editing.

Sure there's a bias to the editing, but one is highlighting something, the other is manipulating to support an agenda.

I'll let you figure who does what.

[branslowski]

Exactly. These guys use trolls to justify their constant effort to diminish MJ's teammates. Use some common sense regarding trolls. Look at this thread. Do you think timduncan21 really believes Tony Parker>Scottie Pippen? :oldlol: The difference is, though, respectable MJ fans diminish MJ's teammates while it is only trolls who claim Pippen>Jordan.

Iv'e seen Bruce and other MJ Stans diminsh what Pippen did after the first yr MJ retired...They say..."Oh, those 55 wins were a fluke"...They go out of their way to diminsh it....Some true "Bulls" fans huh....

[branslowski]

Don't wanna get too much into it, but there's a difference in the editing.

Sure there's a bias to the editing, but one is highlighting something, the other is manipulating to support an agenda.

I'll let you figure who does what.

Bruce and Pah....

[catch24]

Iv'e seen Bruce and other MJ Stans diminsh what Pippen did after the first yr MJ retired...They say..."Oh, those 55 wins were a fluke"...They go out of their way to diminsh it....Some true "Bulls" fans huh....

I've definitely seen this.

[Fatal9]

Couple of MJ stans were saying Pippen's defense on Mark Jackson was hardly gamechanging and were posting all sorts of sarcastic remarks about how Jackson was old, and it meant nothing. Along I came with news stories, clips, quotes and you never heard that anti-Pippen rhetoric from them again. Same thing with Magic. Same thing about them diminishing Pippen's performance in '93 vs. Knicks.

:oldlol: at MJ fans never diminishing Pippen when the only people who do so are them!

[Duncan21formvp]

Exactly. These guys use trolls to justify their constant effort to diminish MJ's teammates. Use some common sense regarding trolls. Look at this thread. Do you think timduncan21 really believes Tony Parker>Scottie Pippen? :oldlol: The difference is, though, respectable MJ fans diminish MJ's teammates while it is only trolls who claim Pippen>Jordan.


Parker has a finals mvp and Pippen doesn't. Thus Parker > Pippen

[branslowski]

Parker has a finals mvp and Pippen doesn't. Thus Parker > Pippen

Chauncy Billups has a Finals Mvp and Malone doesn't. Thus Billups>Malone

[catch24]

Chauncy Billups has a Finals Mvp and Malone doesn't. Thus Billups>Malone

raped...ROFL

[Tarik One]

Parker has a finals mvp and Pippen doesn't. Thus Parker > Pippen

So the amount of finals mvp's is the determining factor in deciding which player is better than another?

[chitownsfinest]

Parker has a finals mvp and Pippen doesn't. Thus Parker > Pippen
Dude just STFU. I have seen you make a sh!t load of stupid statements while my time here. Parker wasn't even the man of that 07 team either, it was still Timmy but Parker had the better series since the Cavs had a weak backcourt defensively. I guess Cedric Maxwell>Pippen as well?

[Roundball_Rock]

Iv'e seen Bruce and other MJ Stans diminsh what Pippen did after the first yr MJ retired...They say..."Oh, those 55 wins were a fluke"...They go out of their way to diminsh it....Some true "Bulls" fans huh....

Yeah. :oldlol:


Couple of MJ stans were saying Pippen's defense on Mark Jackson was hardly gamechanging and were posting all sorts of sarcastic remarks about how Jackson was old, and it meant nothing. Along I came with news stories, clips, quotes and you never heard that anti-Pippen rhetoric from them again. Same thing with Magic. Same thing about them diminishing Pippen's performance in '93 vs. Knicks.

Those were classic instances of ownage. :roll:


Chauncy Billups has a Finals Mvp and Malone doesn't. Thus Billups>Malone

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/2882/owned9wz.jpg

[DCL]

Parker has a finals mvp and Pippen doesn't. Thus Parker > Pippen


there's the delete button, you know. :oldlol:

[Duncan21formvp]

Chauncy Billups has a Finals Mvp and Malone doesn't. Thus Billups>Malone


It only counts if you were an allstar that year. Billups wasn't. So Parker > Pippen as he outplayed Lebron.

Billups outplayed Kobe.

[Indian guy]

Couple of MJ stans were saying Pippen's defense on Mark Jackson was hardly gamechanging and were posting all sorts of sarcastic remarks about how Jackson was old, and it meant nothing. Along I came with news stories, clips, quotes and you never heard that anti-Pippen rhetoric from them again.

How deluded can you get? :oldlol:. Your ass got owned when I posted Pippen's horrendous offensive production in those first 2 games(12.5 ppg/26%), and how wrong you were to say he "won" them. Your only response was posting quotes about Pippen's D, when NOBODY had denied his great defense in those first 2 games. But you implied he somehow single handedly won them the games w/ MJ struggling, when it couldn't have been further from the truth. MJ dropped 36 ppg/50%, Pippen dropped 12.5/27% and stopped a 32 year old, 9/8 PG. The only reason this argument even began was because your pathetic, agenda-driven butt was stupid enough to imply that Pippen carried the Bulls to victory in those first 2 games. What did you think - that nobody had actually watched the series and didn't know the massive EGG Pippen laid offensively? :oldlol:. Stupid, stupid move.


Same thing with Magic.

What about Magic? You are ignorant enough to think Pippen guarded him more than MJ :oldlol:. Only thing you've proven here is how clueless you are.

[branslowski]

It only counts if you were an allstar that year. Billups wasn't. So Parker > Pippen as he outplayed Lebron.

Billups outplayed Kobe.

:oldlol: STFU....You got Owned...Your known as a Clown....Accept it and move on....

[Fatal9]

How deluded can you get? :oldlol:. Your ass got owned when I posted Pippen's horrendous offensive production in those first 2 games(12.5 ppg/26%), and how wrong you were to say he "won" them. Your only response was posting quotes about Pippen's D, when NOBODY had denied his great defense in those first 2 games. But you implied he somehow single handedly won them the games w/ MJ struggling, when it couldn't have been further from the truth. MJ dropped 36 ppg/50%, Pippen dropped 12.5/27% and stopped a 32 year old, 9/8 PG. The only reason this argument even began was because your pathetic, agenda-driven butt was stupid enough to imply that Pippen carried the Bulls to victory in those first 2 games. What did you think - that nobody had actually watched the series and didn't know the massive EGG Pippen laid offensively? :oldlol:. Stupid, stupid move.
MJ shot like 39% in the first game and had ONE assist too. He struggled for most of the game, especially in the first half. You don't have to take my word for it, every non-MJ stan agrees that Pippen's defense flat out won game 1 and was a huge reason for the game 2 win (though MJ finally had a good offensive game in the second game). Funny to see you mask his poor shooting night in game 1 by combining the statistics...classic sign of an agenda :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Funny to see you mask his poor shooting night in game 1 by combining the statistics...classic sign of an agenda :oldlol:

:oldlol:

[chitownsfinest]

MJ shot like 39% in the first game and had ONE assist too. He struggled for most of the game, especially in the first half. You don't have to take my word for it, every non-MJ stan agrees that Pippen's defense flat out won game 1 and was a huge reason for the game 2 win (though MJ finally had a good offensive game in the second game). Funny to see you mask his poor shooting night in game 1 by combining the statistics...classic sign of an agenda :oldlol:
I will agree with you that Pippen's defense was the turning point in game 1. Pacers were up in the half (would have been blowing them out if not for TO's and missed f-throws) and the Bulls were shooting poorly in that half. They then went on a big run to start the second half facilitated from pip's defense which forced TO's for easy buckets. Mike also got most of his point off easy baskets in that half. I wouldn't say Pip was the sole reason for winning that game but he was the MVP. MJ was the mvp of game 2 though.

[Norcaliblunt]

Who cares if Pippen lead a team to 55 wins "ONE" year. There have been a grip of other good players that have done the same. The group that bases his greatness on that one season is what makes him overrated.

[Roundball_Rock]

A 58 win pace (good enough for the #1 seed) with Horace Grant as your second best player and BJ Armstrong as your third best player???? Horace Grant was the 3rd-5th best player on his next team, BJ Armstrong 5th at best but I would argue 7th (Sprewell, Joe Smith, Mullin, Tim Hardaway, Rony Seikaly, and Kevin Willis in no particular order). With Pippen these guys were elevated to all-star status; without him they were both role players, and in the case of Armstrong dropped off the face of the Earth after 1996.

No one relies solely on 1994 and 1995. We also look at the rest of his record but those seasons show us what he could do as the team leader in his prime. It isn't just that he led them to a 58 win pace btw. It is that he was arguably the best player in the league that season. He was definitely the best perimeter player.

[Duncan21formvp]

A 58 win pace (good enough for the #1 seed) with Horace Grant as your second best player and BJ Armstrong as your third best player???? Horace Grant was the 3rd-5th best player on his next team, BJ Armstrong 5th at best but I would argue 7th (Sprewell, Joe Smith, Mullin, Tim Hardaway, Rony Seikaly, and Kevin Willis in no particular order). With Pippen these guys were elevated to all-star status; without him they were both role players, and in the case of Armstrong dropped off the face of the Earth after 1996.

No one relies solely on 1994 and 1995. We also look at the rest of his record but those seasons show us what he could do as the team leader in his prime. It isn't just that he led them to a 58 win pace btw. It is that he was arguably the best player in the league that season. He was definitely the best perimeter player.


Grant led the team in win shares in the playoffs thus he was the best on the team.

[Indian guy]

MJ shot like 39% in the first game and had ONE assist too.

MJ also dropped 25 points on 50%+ shooting in the 2nd half and pulled off a close come-from-behind victory. Pippen on the other hand went scoreless. But I'm sure it was Pippen's D on Mark Jackson in the 2nd half that won the game :oldlol:. **** MJ's 25 points, it's Pippen 0 points but spectacular D on the unstoppable Mark Jackson that single-handedly won it :oldlol:


You don't have to take my word for it, every non-MJ stan agrees that Pippen's defense flat out won game 1

Translation: I know all the statistics and game tape make me look like a fool, so I'll just say something stupid.

Forget non-MJ stans, even the most anti-MJ Kobe stans out there will laugh at the suggestion that a player who scored 4 points(1-9 FG) and went scoreless in the 2nd half "flat out won a close game" for his team. They'll laugh even more at Pippen winning Game 2, when MJ dropped 40+ on terrific shooting while Pippen had another offensive stinker.


classic sign of an agenda :oldlol:

Oh no no no no. An agenda is one when somebody pushes a player averaging 12.5/26% + great D on a 9/8, 32 year old PG as "single handedly winning 2 games" when their teammate is dropping 36/50%. That's an agenda. The sad thing is the only reason this series was even brought up was because you and other agenda-drive fools were talking about Pippen coming up big when MJ didn't. And you chose these 2 games. Real smart :oldlol:

Continue trolling. I can use the comedy.

[bruceblitz]

You know what I've noticed, I've been going through some Bulls games, getting ready to post another Jordan vs defense video, and Scottie Pippen was truly overrated on defense. For someone who NEVER won a defensive player of the year award, you would think he was a lock-down defender like Gary Payton or a post presence like Dikembe Mutumbo. Pippen was an overrated defender. He was a great defender, but I'm saying in the context of the way people talk about his defense, (people who didn't watch Bulls games in that era), his defense gets overrated now.

Pippen averaged 16ppg 6.4reb 5.2ast 2.0stl .8blk 47%fg for his career and people talk about him like he was playing on LeBron's level. The one thing people never talk about with Pippen is the fact that yes he averaged 17ppg in the playoffs 7.6reb and 5.0ast, but Pippen shot 44% in the playoffs for his career. Pippen shot 39% in the 96 playoffs, Pippen shot 41% in the 97 and 98 playoffs. The first year Pippen played in the playoffs without Jordan(99) Pippen shot 32.9% in the playoffs that year. Pippen only had one season shooting over 50% in the playoffs and that was the 90 playoffs when he made 50.4% of his shots. Other than that, he was a streaky scorer, overrated passer and ball handler, overrated defender, and he only shot 30% from 3 point land to go with 72% free throws for his career in the playoffs.

Pippen shot 40% in the 96,97 and 98 playoffs, name one other player who could will his team to a 3 peat, like Jordan did, with a sidekick that shot 40% in the playoffs during those 3 championship runs.

[Fatal9]

....
Can someone find that earlier post last week and use copy/paste? Thanks! Can't seem to find it but that's all that needs to be said.

[branslowski]

Originally Posted By Andgar923

Here's the thing.

MJ fans have never diminished Pip.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[bruceblitz]

You know what I've noticed, I've been going through some Bulls games, getting ready to post another Jordan vs defense video, and Scottie Pippen was truly overrated on defense. For someone who NEVER won a defensive player of the year award, you would think he was a lock-down defender like Gary Payton or a post presence like Dikembe Mutumbo. Pippen was an overrated defender. He was a great defender, but I'm saying in the context of the way people talk about his defense, (people who didn't watch Bulls games in that era), his defense gets overrated now.

Pippen averaged 16ppg 6.4reb 5.2ast 2.0stl .8blk 47%fg for his career and people talk about him like he was playing on LeBron's level. The one thing people never talk about with Pippen is the fact that yes he averaged 17ppg in the playoffs 7.6reb and 5.0ast, but Pippen shot 44% in the playoffs for his career. Pippen shot 39% in the 96 playoffs, Pippen shot 41% in the 97 and 98 playoffs. The first year Pippen played in the playoffs without Jordan(99) Pippen shot 32.9% in the playoffs that year. Pippen only had one season shooting over 50% in the playoffs and that was the 90 playoffs when he made 50.4% of his shots. Other than that, he was a streaky scorer, overrated passer and ball handler, overrated defender, and he only shot 30% from 3 point land to go with 72% free throws for his career in the playoffs.

Pippen shot 40% in the 96,97 and 98 playoffs, name one other player who could will his team to a 3 peat, like Jordan did, with a sidekick that shot 40% in the playoffs during those 3 championship runs.
These are the real facts. The hype around Scottie Pippen, for being a sidekick with Jordan, it's almost as bad as the hype around Kobe Bryant, the most overrated athlete of all time.

[TryToBeUnbias]

These are the real facts. The hype around Scottie Pippen, for being a sidekick with Jordan, it's almost as bad as the hype around Kobe Bryant, the most overrated athlete of all time.
sigh. . . just couldnt resist huh? :cry:

[branslowski]

sigh. . . just couldnt resist huh? :cry:

:oldlol: ...Skip Bayless does this to LeBron...LeBron fans just...:oldlol:

I have no prob with it...A Jobs a Job

[Roundball_Rock]

These are the real facts. The hype around Scottie Pippen, for being a sidekick with Jordan, it's almost as bad as the hype around Kobe Bryant, the most overrated athlete of all time.

:roll:

Speaking of real facts:

Pippen without Jordan: 20 playoff wins (6 seasons)
Jordan without Pippen: 1 playoff win (5 seasons)

This is why bruceblitz will eternally hate Pippen. :oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

:roll:

Speaking of real facts:

Pippen without Jordan: 20 playoff wins (6 seasons)
Jordan without Pippen: 1 playoff win (5 seasons)

This is why bruceblitz will eternally hate Pippen. :oldlol:
Why are you trying to deflect the truth? Everyone knows you are a Kobe apostle who hates Jordan.... don't expect me to go back and forth with you either troll...

Record as team leader
Michael Air Jordan: 640-290 (.688)

Bulls = 6 championships with Jordan as team leader, 0 without Jordan.


You know what I've noticed, I've been going through some Bulls games, getting ready to post another Jordan vs defense video, and Scottie Pippen was truly overrated on defense. For someone who NEVER won a defensive player of the year award, you would think he was a lock-down defender like Gary Payton or a post presence like Dikembe Mutumbo. Pippen was an overrated defender. He was a great defender, but I'm saying in the context of the way people talk about his defense, (people who didn't watch Bulls games in that era), his defense gets overrated now.

Pippen averaged 16ppg 6.4reb 5.2ast 2.0stl .8blk 47%fg for his career and people talk about him like he was playing on LeBron's level. The one thing people never talk about with Pippen is the fact that yes he averaged 17ppg in the playoffs 7.6reb and 5.0ast, but Pippen shot 44% in the playoffs for his career. Pippen shot 39% in the 96 playoffs, Pippen shot 41% in the 97 and 98 playoffs. The first year Pippen played in the playoffs without Jordan(99) Pippen shot 32.9% in the playoffs that year. Pippen only had one season shooting over 50% in the playoffs and that was the 90 playoffs when he made 50.4% of his shots. Other than that, he was a streaky scorer, overrated passer and ball handler, overrated defender, and he only shot 30% from 3 point land to go with 72% free throws for his career in the playoffs.

Pippen shot 40% in the 96,97 and 98 playoffs, name one other player who could will his team to a 3 peat, like Jordan did, with a sidekick that shot 40% in the playoffs during those 3 championship runs.

If you think Pippen was a more dominant and dangerous basketball player than Jordan, clearly you are a lunatic.... Pippen, unlike Jordan, was able to play along side of the most dominant player in his era. Pippen was traded to a playoff contending Rockets team, and further to a Blazers team that was a conteder as well. Jordan on the other hand had teammates like Dave Corzine and Orlando Woolridge by his side during the years that the Bulls weren't winning playoff series. It's funny the way you think what you post is relevant. Too bad your lame theory has been blown out of the water....

Jordan in 85 playoffs: 29.3ppg 5.8reb 8.5ast 44%fg (rookie)
Bulls lost to the Bucks in the playoffs, Bulls had won 27 games the year before which jumped up to 38 wins with the addition of Jordan...
Jordan's supporting cast in the 85 playoffs:
Woolridge 20ppg 3.3reb 2.0ast 50%fg (Jordan set up Woolridge for a lot of good looks, he trusted Orlando)
Quinton Dailey 15ppg 3.3reb 2.8ast 42%fg
Steve Johnson 2.0ppg 1.7reb .7ast 28%fg
Dave Corzine 8.3ppg 5.5reb .8ast 66%fg


Jordan in 86 playoffs: 43.7ppg 6.3reb 5.7ast 50.5%fg
Jordan's supporting cast in the 86 playoffs:
Orlando Woolridge 21ppg 4.7reb 1.3ast 40%fg
George Gervin 0ppg .5reb .5ast 0%fg (was injured, Gervin started 75 games that year, so did the loss of Gervin have somewhat of an impact on the Bulls losing to the Celtics? That's Jordan's fault too I'm sure)
Sidney Green 6.0ppg 4.0reb 0.0ast 30%fg
Gene Banks 7.3ppg 3.3reb 1.7ast 55%fg
Charles Oakley 10.0ppg 10.0reb 1.0ast 52%fg
(this is the team you expected Jordan to lead over the World Champion Boston Celtics #1 rated defense? Crazy people!)

Jordan in 87 playoffs: 35.7ppg 7.0reb 6.0ast 42%fg
Jordan's supporting cast in the 87 playoffs:
Charles Oakley 20.0ppg 15.3reb 2.0ast 38%fg
John Paxson 8.7ppg 1.0reb 3.7ast 50%fg
Dave Corzine 9.0ppg 7.0reb 2.3ast 45%fg
Brad Sellers 5.0ppg 2.3reb 1.0ast 31%fg
What a supporting cast! How in the hell did Jordan get swept by one of the best defenses in the NBA who ran double and triple teams at him? How in the hell did Jordan's "great" team lose that series to the reigning world champs?

1995 = BULLS were struggling to stay over .500 in the 94-95 season, and when Jordan came back to the Bulls we won 76% of the rest of the games in the regular season, won 72 games the following year.

Really though, you are lucky I even respond to such nonsense.

[Roundball_Rock]

I posted real facts. :oldlol:

Of course MJ was the best player on the 90's Bulls. No one disputes that.

Oh, and it is hilarious to see someone who gets banned about every 2 weeks calling someone else a troll. :roll:

[TryToBeUnbias]

[QUOTE=bruceblitz]Why are you trying to deflect the truth? Everyone knows you are a Kobe apostle who hates Jordan.... don't expect me to go back and forth with you either troll...

Record as team leader
Michael Air Jordan: 640-290 (.688)

Bulls = 6 championships with Jordan as team leader, 0 without Jordan.



Everyone knows? he seems more obsessed with Pip then Kobe

[Alpha Wolf]

:roll:

Speaking of real facts:

Pippen without Jordan: 20 playoff wins (6 seasons)
Jordan without Pippen: 1 playoff win (5 seasons)

This is why bruceblitz will eternally hate Pippen. :oldlol:


:oldlol:

Who would you say was the best member of Scottie Pippen's supporting cast

A. Horace Grant
B. Dennis Rodman
C. John Paxson
D. Pete Myers
E. Michael Jordan


I'm going with Pete Myers He stepped in for Jordan after MJ retired, and the Bulls only dropped 2 games in the win column

[Roundball_Rock]

:D

Alpha Wolf, in your opinion of Pippen was never traded to Chicago how would a Jordan/Polynice tandem fare?

[Alpha Wolf]

:D

Alpha Wolf, in your opinion of Pippen was never traded to Chicago how would a Jordan/Polynice tandem fare?

if the Sonics had Kemp Payton and Pippen....then that's at least 4 Chips right there!


Jordan/Polynice = they Bulls would have gone another decade without a winning season

(before Chicago traded for Pip the Bulls went a decade without a winning seaso)


1987-88 NBA 50-32 2nd, Central Division (Scottie Pippen"s First year and the Bulls Finally have a winning season and get to the 2nd round...Finally!!!) ..... East Conf Semis

1986-87 NBA 40-42 5th, Central Division (With M.Jordan and still a losing season)

1985-86 NBA 30-52 4th, Central Division (with M.Jordan and still a losing season)

1984-85 NBA 38-44 3rd, Central Division (with M. Jordan and still a losing season)

1983-84 NBA 27-55 5th, Central Division

1982-83 NBA 28-54 4th, Central Division

1981-82 NBA 34-48 5th, Central Division

1980-81 NBA 45-37 2nd, Central Division Lost East Conf Semis

1979-80 NBA 30-52 3rd, Midwest Division

1978-79 NBA 31-51 5th, Midwest Division

1977-78 NBA 40-42 3rd, Midwest Division

[Roundball_Rock]

Magic without Kareem: made it to the NBA finals
Kareem without Magic: champion
Russell without Cousy: champion
Jordan without Pippen: one playoff win
Shaq without Kobe: champion
Kobe without Shaq: champion
Duncan without Robinson: champion


Remember the SAT? Which one is not like the others? :oldlol:

[raptorfan_dr07]

Here's the thing.

MJ fans have never diminished Pip.

Its Kobe STANS that elevate Pip to grandiose levels, in order to make a case that Kobe is better than MJ.

So when you have somebody that's basically saying, Pip is responsible for the Bulls' victories of course people are gonna immediately laugh at them and point out Pippen's shortcomings. And rightfully say, "MJ made Pip" because well........ HE DID.

Most of us agree that Pip is one of, if not the best perimeter defender of all time.

I don't think anybody has ever denied that.

Most of us have admitted that Pip is the best sidekick of all time.

I don't see that as underrating him.

Now..... these are the FACTS.

MJ never won without Pip, but Pip never won without MJ.

However......

Shaq was Shaq before Kobe came into the picture.
Shaq went to the Finals before Kobe came into the picture.
Shaq WON without Kobe.

Kobe will win his first ring without Shaq.

But he'll be doing it with possibly the best center in the league (at the very least top 3), and one of the best players period. A player that had been an all star 'before' he came to the Lakers, a player that led a mediocre team to the playoffs.

End Thread. :cheers:

[D-Rose]

Here's the thing.

MJ fans have never diminished Pip.

Its Kobe STANS that elevate Pip to grandiose levels, in order to make a case that Kobe is better than MJ.

So when you have somebody that's basically saying, Pip is responsible for the Bulls' victories of course people are gonna immediately laugh at them and point out Pippen's shortcomings. And rightfully say, "MJ made Pip" because well........ HE DID.

Most of us agree that Pip is one of, if not the best perimeter defender of all time.

I don't think anybody has ever denied that.

Most of us have admitted that Pip is the best sidekick of all time.

I don't see that as underrating him.

Now..... these are the FACTS.

MJ never won without Pip, but Pip never won without MJ.

However......

Shaq was Shaq before Kobe came into the picture.
Shaq went to the Finals before Kobe came into the picture.
Shaq WON without Kobe.

Kobe will win his first ring without Shaq.

But he'll be doing it with possibly the best center in the league (at the very least top 3), and one of the best players period. A player that had been an all star 'before' he came to the Lakers, a player that led a mediocre team to the playoffs.

Did you just call Bynum the best centee in the league? even top 3?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Give it 5 years buddy.

Gasol is an all-star talent obviously, every leader needs an all-star caliber sidekick to win a title (nearly every leader).